February 1, 2025 • 42 mins
Unlock the secrets to cutting-edge pain management with Dr. Kevin Barton from the Texas Spine Clinic. Discover how groundbreaking interventional radiology procedures are addressing knee arthritis and plantar fasciitis, and explore the fascinating world of scrambler therapy for peripheral neuropathy. We'll guide you through the innovative treatments that are transforming lives, including spinal cord stimulators and the potential of angiogenesis in healing. This episode promises a treasure trove of insights into modern medical advancements and highlights the often-overlooked importance of proper body mechanics to prevent everyday injuries.
Our conversation takes a deep dive into the common causes of back and neck pain, offering practical advice on avoiding injuries from lifting luggage to navigating the perils of holiday travel. We emphasize the differences in treatment approaches between chiropractors and physical therapists, advocating for conservative methods as the first line of defense against pain. For those with more life experience, the gradual reintroduction to physical activity is key, and we share humorous anecdotes and personal stories to make these valuable lessons resonate with our listeners.
Dr. Barton and I also tackle the challenges posed by insurance companies and their impact on patient care. Despite these hurdles, we remain committed to innovation and patient education, advocating for better options beyond surgery. From angiogenic embolization to exciting developments at the Texas Spine Clinic, we offer a glimpse into the future of medical treatments. With a mix of humor and heartfelt stories, this episode invites you into a world where collaborative spirit and shared knowledge strive for the best possible patient outcomes. Join us as we explore these transformative topics and more.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Dr. Mark Moran (00:06):
Thank you very much for joining us.
This is Dr Mark Moran.
We are here to help youunderstand what's going on in
your life, with your pain withyour back and anything else we
can help you with as far ascommunity involvement.
This is my good friend.
What's your name?
Dr. Kevin Barton (00:19):
You know, I'm actually really bad about that.
Somebody I've known for 15 or20 years and I'm like I stumble
with their name when I get puton the spot.
So yeah, Kevin Barton, I'm achiropractor.
I've known, uh, Dr Moran.
For how long we've been witheach other like 10 more than 10
years.
Dr. Mark Moran (00:33):
Yeah, it's a long time.
Dr. Kevin Barton (00:34):
Yeah, a long time but we both still look
young.
Well, I hope so that's good.
Dr. Mark Moran (00:41):
It's been a long time it has been, it's been
very good friend helped me out alot, yes, so I appreciate that.
Oh, anytime so anyone that hasproblems that needs a
chiropractor go see Dr Barton.
He's a good guy.
He'll take good care of you.
Dr. Kevin Barton (00:52):
Absolutely.
Dr. Mark Moran (00:53):
Okay, next, we've got to give a shout out to
the wonderful people that areletting us use this room.
If your needs, go to Hapathyand they will take good care of
you.
And the other shout out I wantto do is for Toolbox Studios.
They helped me with my websiteand all my marketing.
Both of them are very goodmarketers.
Please use them.
Dr. Kevin Barton (01:12):
Sounds good.
Dr. Mark Moran (01:12):
There you go, so what have you been up to?
Dr. Kevin Barton (01:15):
Man a lot.
We have been through someserious transformations.
You have 15 seconds.
Yes, that's pretty fast.
I might be able to do it all inabout 15 months.
Dr. Mark Moran (01:26):
Do we have that much time?
Can you maybe give me just highlevel summary?
Dr. Kevin Barton (01:29):
High level summary yes, so we did a little
transition with our mainpractice and brought in an
interventional radiology groupto start doing interventional
radiology procedures.
So we are doing anything fromknee arthritis treatments
through a vascular approach tofrozen shoulder syndrome,
plantar fasciitis, so we'redoing a number of
(01:51):
musculoskeletal type vascularprocedures, which is cutting
edge.
Super brand new came out ofJapan.
A guy in Japan started it about15 years ago and it's just kind
of made its way to the Statesin the last seven, eight years.
Awesome stuff.
We'll talk more about that someother time, but uh, so that.
And then we started a brand newtherapy with our chiropractic
(02:12):
office called scrambler therapy.
Dr. Mark Moran (02:15):
Scrambler, scrambler.
What a name Like a breakfasttaco at Benny's or something.
Dr. Kevin Barton (02:19):
Yeah, More maybe like scrambling the brain.
No, in a good way I like it.
Yeah, we'll talk more aboutthat.
We have to talk about thattonight okay, super exciting.
Dr. Mark Moran (02:28):
I will definitely talk about scrambling
.
Dr. Kevin Barton (02:29):
I just like the name yeah, it's super cool,
it's catchy.
Okay, you'll remember it.
You'll be like do I have?
Peripheral neuropathy.
Dr. Mark Moran (02:35):
Oh, I heard something about scrambler
therapy yeah, so I will not everforget that yeah, okay well,
last time we saw each other, Iremember you were expanding to
other cities and about to takeover the country well, that was
the intent, and then, apparently, the insurance companies had
other ideas.
Dr. Kevin Barton (02:53):
Oh, and so they went through this in 2022,
a 60 cut in those gel injectionsthat we do for the knee, and
they literally just squashed ourreimbursement.
So bad that we were like, buton the brakes.
Dr. Mark Moran (03:08):
And then that's when we brought in the
intervention let me get thisstraight you have problems with
insurances well, every day, allday long, because that's the
life I live I understand, I feelyour pain and I'm a pain doctor
it's a oh man, that's like adouble.
Dr. Kevin Barton (03:22):
I know I understand what you're.
You should have no pain, sinceyou're a pain doctor.
Dr. Mark Moran (03:27):
I personally don't have pain, but dealing
with the insurance company isfrequently painful because they
limit things we can do for ourpatients.
Dr. Kevin Barton (03:33):
Well, you know , I say I never really
understand how insurancecompanies get away with
practicing medicine without alicense, right, I mean, that's
the truth.
Oh yeah, because they'redictating the care 100%.
Yeah, and then we'll see crazythings like a pediatrician
giving recommendations for apain procedure or an
interventional radiologyprocedure.
I'm like what in the worldthat's?
Dr. Mark Moran (03:56):
because you're thinking logically Exactly.
Dr. Kevin Barton (03:58):
You can't do that, throw that out the window.
Dr. Mark Moran (04:00):
Throw it out the window.
Dr. Kevin Barton (04:00):
Because any time you're dealing with an
insurance company, not much islogical.
Dr. Mark Moran (04:04):
Clearly, I agree , yeah, I agree, okay, so,
anyway, so good to have you on.
Dr. Kevin Barton (04:10):
Yeah, thanks for coming on Well.
Thank you, I feel honored to behere.
Dr. Mark Moran (04:13):
Well, I'm honored that you're here.
Well, good, it's good, it'sgood, so I'm going to put you on
the spot.
Dr. Kevin Barton (04:18):
Yes, so everyone to know you a little
bit.
Sure, teach me the mostexciting thing that you ever did
in your life, the most excitingthing I've ever done in my life
.
Dr. Mark Moran (04:29):
I mean because you've got a lot of exciting
things.
Dr. Kevin Barton (04:31):
I do a lot of exciting stuff.
I am a bit of an adrenalinejunkie to some degree.
I I fly a lot of airplanes.
I've been flying airplanes for25 years.
Um, probably the most excitingthing was learning how to fly
helicopters during okay, covid.
Dr. Mark Moran (04:45):
Okay, so I remember you're doing that.
Yeah, I had a lot of time on myhands.
Dr. Kevin Barton (04:49):
I had always wanted to do it and I was like
I'm gonna get my helicopterlicense.
And I, I did that, bought a fewhelicopters and I mean there's
enough.
Dr. Mark Moran (04:58):
In my opinion, nothing more fun than flying
helicopters almost nothing okay,so you fly multiple helicopters
, but you're still late to gethere.
Dr. Kevin Barton (05:07):
Well, I mean, unfortunately they don't really
let us land these thingsanywhere.
Dr. Mark Moran (05:11):
Oh, you can't land on top of the building.
Dr. Kevin Barton (05:12):
No, they tend to frown on that.
Dr. Mark Moran (05:14):
That would be great if you could do that.
Dr. Kevin Barton (05:16):
Without permission, at least.
Dr. Mark Moran (05:18):
I'm giving you a hard time.
That's awesome.
I thought it would certainly belike swimming with the sharks.
Dr. Kevin Barton (05:24):
I do like swimming with sharks.
That's pretty fun too.
Dr. Mark Moran (05:26):
Oh, I'll tell you, I did have an amazing
experience.
Dr. Kevin Barton (05:28):
recently, I spent a month in Southeast Asia
by myself.
Wow, and it was a phenomenaltrip.
Started in Singapore, went toBali, but I spent two weeks on a
liveaboard dive boat and dovefour times a day Tons of
sharksons, of manta rays.
If you've never seen a mantaray in real life, let me tell
you.
It's unbelievable.
(05:48):
The span was like 15 feet Onone dive.
We saw over 30 manta rays onone dive.
It was insane.
Okay, so that was really cool.
Dr. Mark Moran (05:58):
Well, I went to Chick-fil-A last night, does
that count?
For anything that's not superexciting, is it though?
I think it is.
Dr. Kevin Barton (06:06):
Yeah, certainly probably not as
exciting as you, I mean.
Dr. Mark Moran (06:08):
Merrill diving Asia.
Dr. Kevin Barton (06:10):
Chick-fil-A.
It's all relative.
It's all relative yeah.
Dr. Mark Moran (06:13):
I knew you'd have a more exciting story than
I would have.
Dr. Kevin Barton (06:15):
Sure, okay, well, thanks for sharing that.
Dr. Mark Moran (06:18):
I appreciate that.
So what we're doing here is wewant.
We want to try and help peopleout, educate them, because
knowledge is power.
Dr. Kevin Barton (06:24):
Yes.
Dr. Mark Moran (06:24):
Okay, we want them to be active participants,
not passive recipients, in theirhealth, absolutely.
So we want to empower them withknowledge so they won't hurt
themselves, and then they don'tcome see us.
Dr. Kevin Barton (06:33):
No kidding, we're trying to prevent them
from coming see us Absolutely.
Dr. Mark Moran (06:35):
Right.
So can you tell me and ourviewers appreciate that some
examples of common things yousee during the wintertime, the
holidays coming, and what peoplecan do to help prevent those
injuries?
Teach me something and thenI'll teach you something
Absolutely.
Dr. Kevin Barton (06:54):
I think of two things when I think of
Christmas.
I think of unnecessary fallsoff ladders from putting up
Christmas lights.
Dr. Mark Moran (07:01):
That's what I was going to say.
Seriously, yeah, yeah, peoplereaching to the side.
Dr. Kevin Barton (07:05):
Oh man, I can't tell you how many people
had a, really bad injury likeobviously a femur fracture or
something worse, hip fracture,and then, of course, they tend
to injure their spinesimultaneously, and so they're
coming to us for their spineproblem, but the injury was
really much worse in terms offractures and things like that.
So that's top of mind.
(07:25):
Number two would probably justbe lifting, lifting heavy boxes
for this or that.
My big thing as far as teachingpatients and education is don't
lift and twist at the same time.
Lift and then turn your hips andturn your legs and turn your
body, but don't lift and twistat the waist, because that's how
(07:46):
we shear.
That shearing motion on thedisc is what hurts the disc
under compression.
So a compressive load with theshear is how a lot of people
rupture the disc.
Dr. Mark Moran (07:56):
Right, and the example I see of that is when
older people, or I'll say peoplewith more life experience, go
to see their families and theybend down to pick up a grandkid
and then they lift and twist thekid up like that, absolutely.
You see, that all the time?
Yes, the other thing I see isluggage.
When you're on a flight, whatdo you do?
You lift your luggage up andtry to put up a thing and you
(08:16):
get herniated disc or you cantear your shoulder.
Yeah, exactly, literally.
Yeah.
I have one patient who bentover to get some casserole or
something out of the fridge andhe sneezed at the exact same
time.
So he was bent over and thenincreased his pressure in his
abdomen and just came up with ahorrible bulging disc.
Dr. Kevin Barton (08:34):
Terrible, horrible, terrible, horrible.
Dr. Mark Moran (08:41):
Terrible.
So certainly the ladder thingwhere you go off to the side is
very, very concerning.
Don't get on ladders, they'revery dangerous.
Dr. Kevin Barton (08:48):
They are very dangerous.
Dr. Mark Moran (08:49):
They lose balance.
You'll fall.
It'll fall on you.
You'll hurt yourself.
Dr. Kevin Barton (08:52):
I tell people that all the time Stay away from
ladders.
Dr. Mark Moran (08:54):
I know I often think I should advertise on
ladders.
Dr. Kevin Barton (08:58):
Well, that might be helpful.
We might drum up some businessthat I put a stamp above the
third step and say above thislevel, get ready to call Dr
Moran.
Literally.
Dr. Mark Moran (09:05):
There you go.
So I get that one, I get thelifting thing.
Dr. Kevin Barton (09:09):
I get the the castrol thing.
Dr. Mark Moran (09:11):
The other one I get a lot is people that travel.
They stay in hotels or foreignbeds and they get cervical neck
pain, absolutely.
The beds aren't verycomfortable or it's just sitting
down a long time.
They get a lot of SI joint pain.
Dr. Kevin Barton (09:22):
No kidding, a lot of back pain like that.
Do you see that?
A lot too I do, thinking ofjust changing beds and changing
pillows.
I know me personally, you knowI mean it's.
Everybody thinks it's reallyfunny when a chiropractor has
their own back and neck pain.
But I suffer from it too, justlike everybody else.
You know it's like your neck,your body gets used to a certain
(09:47):
thing and then when you?
Switch it up.
It's like, oh, why is my headelevated so much?
and then you know you wake upwith a crick in your neck, or
your neck super tight, stiff,all you know it's very common?
Dr. Mark Moran (09:58):
yep, I get that too.
I get that too.
See my other list um doing newthings.
Your body is not used to.
Dr. Kevin Barton (10:06):
I mean, you know what comes to mind there is
.
Everybody's getting close tothe new year, so everybody is
sort of thinking about okay,what's my new year's resolution?
I'm going to start getting backinto the gym or I'm going to
start doing more activity ormore walking, and they just bite
off more than they should toofast, so I think they overdo it.
Dr. Mark Moran (10:25):
Absolutely.
I totally agree with that andmy perspective is people that go
skiing once a year snow skiingor snowboarding for the first
time, or they get with theirfamily and friends.
They're like oh, I can do that,and they don't realize that
they have more life experiencethis year than last year and
they just do things that theirmuscles and tendons and
ligaments aren't used to oradapted to.
Dr. Kevin Barton (10:45):
And by more life experience you mean a
little more time has passed,that's what I mean.
They're not as young as theywere.
Dr. Mark Moran (10:50):
That's what I mean.
They have more life experience.
That's just the way I say it.
Dr. Kevin Barton (10:56):
Absolutely, it is true.
Everyone has more lifeexperience every day, every day.
Dr. Mark Moran (11:01):
Good, so we see the same problems.
Dr. Kevin Barton (11:03):
We do, we do see that.
Dr. Mark Moran (11:04):
And you have helped me out a lot with my
patients, so thank you very muchfor all your help, yeah, and
you've done the same for us.
I appreciate that.
But what I want to talk aboutnow is because I have lots of
patients that come in and theysay what do you want to do with
me?
And I say, well, here's youroptions.
Obviously, one of my firstoptions is conservative things
like physical therapy orchiropractor.
Dr. Kevin Barton (11:20):
Yes.
Dr. Mark Moran (11:21):
And a lot of patients.
Dr. Kevin Barton (11:22):
And that makes a ton of sense, by the way.
Oh, thank you.
Start conservatively and workour way up.
It seems pretty simple.
Dr. Mark Moran (11:29):
It seems pretty simple.
I'm not a rocket scientist.
I don't see that every day.
I'm not a rocket scientist.
Dr. Kevin Barton (11:34):
Yeah, it seems pretty simple.
Try conservatively, it soundslike very good medicine.
Oh, thank you.
Dr. Mark Moran (11:52):
I appreciate that.
So the question they have iswhat do chiropractors do that
physical therapists can't do?
And they just crack my backright.
So give me a quick summary ofwhat a chiropractor can offer
you and how they differ fromphysical therapists, and some of
the advantages, or anything issure, yeah that's a super good
question.
Dr. Kevin Barton (11:58):
You know, probably when I started out in
chiropractic and I've beenpracticing for 21 years now it
was probably a little differentthan that it is now.
Most physical therapists do notmanipulate the way chiropractors
do.
Some do, and some have beentrained in it, but they don't
train every single day of theirsort of chiropractic education
(12:20):
like we do, and so in myexperience they tend to not be
as proficient.
It is a skill, it's a verytechnical skill and you have to
have a feeling for it, and wejust have a lot more background
in that.
One major thing which is againvery technical.
Dr. Mark Moran (12:36):
So let me interrupt.
When you say manipulate, you'resaying that as a movement or
joint type thing.
Yeah, so like the situation.
Dr. Kevin Barton (12:42):
Yeah, yeah, exactly.
So we're saying like mobilizingthe joint.
So if we're mobilizing thespine because it's tight or
restricted or it's stiff or it'stight, probably I mean I'm just
I'm throwing a number out there, but I would say probably less
than 10 percent of physicaltherapists adjust like a
(13:02):
chiropractor would adjust.
Dr. Mark Moran (13:04):
Some do, but not many.
Dr. Kevin Barton (13:07):
So that's probably the main difference.
Number two I would say in termsof what I like to do is I think
every physician and everypractitioner has what they
really enjoy doing and seeing.
I'd like to see the spinepatients.
I don't really want to see ashoulder patient.
I don't want to deal with anankle problem.
I just have my preferences.
(13:27):
So I want to see a herniateddisc patient or this kind of
patient or that kind of patientand I'm very good at the spine.
I let all the physicaltherapists like, if I have a
what I would consider a PT issue, like probably rehabbing a
shoulder or certainly apost-surgical problem, I'm going
to refer that to a physicaltherapist.
I'm going to let them do whatthey do well, and then hopefully
you know we don't get a lot ofreferrals from PT, but we send
(13:50):
out a lot of referrals to PT.
Dr. Mark Moran (13:51):
But what you said I think is very important
is you know what you can do.
Well, you know what yourboundaries are and then, when
you start operating outsidethose boundaries, you say you
know what, I need some help, solet me send you to someone who's
better A hundred percent.
That's better for the patient.
You know what that makes sense.
Dr. Kevin Barton (14:06):
Well, that's good.
That's good.
That seems like it makes sense.
Dr. Mark Moran (14:09):
I always like to go back to.
Dr. Kevin Barton (14:11):
Let's do what's right for the patient.
It's pretty simple.
Yes.
Dr. Mark Moran (14:15):
I agree with that Absolutely.
Work inside your wheel well,know what you do, do it well.
Take care of the patients first.
If you can't do it, there'snothing wrong, say you know what
?
Let me send you someone who'sgoing to do a better job.
Absolutely.
I do that all the time.
100% Appreciate that, okay.
So I cannot wait to hear aboutscrambled eggs.
Dr. Kevin Barton (14:34):
I'm pretty good, cook gets come, oh really.
Dr. Mark Moran (14:35):
Yeah, it's something like that.
Dr. Kevin Barton (14:45):
I can't remember what it was, but I know
something scrambler therapy,scrambler therapy, yeah.
So what I in in my career, Ithink we've always tried to find
, like our organization, we'vealways tried to find the really
neat treatments that, or really,yeah, really neat treatments
that, um, we don't feel like arewell treated in the medical
profession in general, and oneof those things is like
peripheral neuropathy.
I mean how hard like how hardis it to treat peripheral
(15:08):
neuropathy?
Dr. Mark Moran (15:09):
It's very hard.
Dr. Kevin Barton (15:09):
It's very hard .
Dr. Mark Moran (15:10):
It's very hard, it's a very common problem.
Especially in San Antonio.
Dr. Kevin Barton (15:14):
Especially in San Antonio, because one of the
biggest causes for peripheralneuropathy is diabetic
neuropathy.
Uncontrolled diabetes leads tonerve damage.
Dr. Mark Moran (15:22):
And there's a couple of people with diabetes
in San Antonio, one or two Ithink, maybe, maybe.
Dr. Kevin Barton (15:26):
And so you know, traditionally speaking, we
have some medications thatUsually it's medicines can work
pretty well.
But when they don't, what areour options?
So, from your perspective, howdo you treat?
Dr. Mark Moran (15:39):
peripheral neuropathy.
Usually it's medicines.
Because, it's peripheralproblem, it's vascular.
There's not a the blood vesselsso usually it's medicines for
peripheral neuropathy.
Dr. Kevin Barton (15:51):
Yeah, and so people will try things, some
physical therapy type approaches.
They'll try some home remedies.
There can be some nutritionalaspects, you know.
So obviously we want to treatthe underlying problem that's
causing the neuropathy.
But once those things have beentreated, you know,
unfortunately once the damagehas been done, you're not
typically going to reverse thosechanges, and so what scrambler
(16:12):
therapy does is it's actuallytreating the neural pathway to
the brain.
So we are literally retrainingthe brain to understand that
this machine generates thissignal.
It's, it's quite complex.
There is there's 16 algorithmsthat runs through this code.
That so it's basically.
This is an electro analgesicdevice.
(16:34):
So think about this like a.
Dr. Mark Moran (16:35):
TENS unit.
Dr. Kevin Barton (16:36):
So the analogy that our trainer, the guy that
came in and trained us on thisthing, he said you know, it's
kind of the difference between aVolkswagen bug and a Tesla.
Okay, yeah.
So you know, Teslas have anamazing ability to drive
themselves and they do all thisadvanced stuff.
Are they the same thing?
I mean sort of, but I meanobviously one's way more
advanced than the other.
So this machine generates asynthetic signal to replace the
(17:08):
existing painful signal.
So it's replacing the previouspainful signal with a no pain
signal.
Dr. Mark Moran (17:16):
It's scrambling the pain signal.
Dr. Kevin Barton (17:18):
Literally scrambling the pain signal with
a no pain signal.
It's sending this new messageto the brain and how the brain
works over time it retrains thepathways to the brain and the
neuroplasticity improves withtime.
So this is sort of like.
The analogy we give is how doyou learn a foreign language?
So it starts out with a fewwords, which turns into a few
(17:39):
sentences, which turns into somephrases, and the more you do it
, the more you learn and thefaster your brain learns it and
figures it out.
So same principle withneuroplasticity of learning a
new pathway, and so eventuallywe want the brain to recognize
this no pain signal as thenormal signal.
And so where, with a TENS unit,you're always placing the pads
on the painful part of the bodywhere the scrambler therapy,
(18:02):
we're actually placing this ongood neurons.
We're actually placing thistypically proximal or in front
of where all the damage to thenerves are so like on the thighs
?
yeah, so if had.
Usually it's about two fingerwidths from the problem area.
So if they had peripheralneuropathy in their feet, we'd
actually place the pads abouttwo finger widths away from the
(18:23):
problem.
Dr. Mark Moran (18:23):
So like ankle, yeah, really close to the
problem.
Dr. Kevin Barton (18:25):
But where the problem?
Where the neurons are stillgood, where the nerves are still
sending a proper, good signal.
So then we start overridingthat signal to the brain.
And this is how we treatperipheral neuropathy.
So over time.
So this was invented in Rome bya guy named Giuseppe Marineo.
(18:46):
And he invented the scramblertherapy like 20 years ago, but
it was FDA approved in 2009 inthe States.
So he sent some machines to theStates to so they could study
it.
So, uh, most of the studieshave come out of Johns Hopkins
university.
It got him Dr Smith there.
He's in the pain department.
He's a anesthesia pain guy justlike you, so they use this
(19:06):
extensively to treat all kindsof neuropathic pain.
So we are just sort of gettingout the peripheral neuropathy
word but to CRPS, phantom limbpain.
Dr. Mark Moran (19:17):
Yeah, crps, any neuropathic pain, any
neuropathic pain literally anyneuropathic pain.
Dr. Kevin Barton (19:21):
So we saw some amazing results on some
patients just this week.
So this is our first week ofthe machine, so we're just kind
of getting started with it.
But so one of the very firstpatient peripheral neuropathy
patient, diabetic neuropathyfeels like he has sponges on the
bottom of his feet the typicalyeah, numbness, right, His
(19:42):
burning pain's about an eight atnight, and so when he came into
the office he complained of apain score of about a six.
Well, obviously, with thenumbness and the spongy it never
changes.
He has very difficult time withbalance due to proprioceptive
loss, so he has a hard time justwalking.
So we watch with the cane.
Dr. Mark Moran (19:59):
So he has a sensation in his feet like
proprioception.
I'm just saying yes, exactly.
So he doesn't feel where hisfeet are, so he gets a lot of
goosebumps, exactly.
Dr. Kevin Barton (20:06):
So we hook him up to the scrambler therapy, we
start treating them and theamazing thing about this
treatment is patients seeimmediate results.
So patients that have been inpain, so this guy's been in pain
since 2015.
And for the first time in nineyears, this guy is pain free.
Dr. Mark Moran (20:26):
After one treatment, during the treatment
and after, but I'll explain howthat works.
Dr. Kevin Barton (20:31):
So the whole goal with each treatment is to
zero the patient's pain.
Dr. Mark Moran (20:35):
Okay.
Dr. Kevin Barton (20:35):
Like you, literally zero it out.
So you scramble the bad signals, scramble the bad signals,
override the synthetic newsignal, send that to the brain,
brain starts picking up the newsignal as the normal signal and
the patient's pain literallymelts away in just minutes.
So then they're zero pain andhe's like you know what?
I can feel my feet, I canliterally feel.
(20:56):
So the first time in nine yearsI literally feel like I have
normal feet, like I can feel theground.
So he has his shoes off and hissocks off, so he can literally
feel the floor.
So after the treatment we takeeverything off, he stands up and
he starts walking without hiscane.
And I had to, I had to, like,hold him as he stood up.
(21:17):
I'm sure he was nervous, yeah,and so during the treatment,
before it's it really startedhelping him.
He was his, his balance wasterrible.
As soon as the treatment wasover, he stood up, he started
walking and wasn't even usinghis cane, that's right, it was
unbelievable.
Dr. Mark Moran (21:32):
I've never seen anything like it.
Dr. Kevin Barton (21:33):
And then we saw another lady that was an
amputee that had phantom limbpain and just terrible pain.
Again, zero pain.
Dr. Mark Moran (21:40):
And how long is it on?
Dr. Kevin Barton (21:41):
Yeah, so the first guy got relief for four
hours, zero pain for four hours,and when his pain did come back
, it was less, it was about 20to 30% less than it was.
Dr. Mark Moran (21:54):
So he came in and he was better today,
trending in the right direction.
Dr. Kevin Barton (21:56):
Same with the other girl, but she had a little
less timeframe that it feltbetter.
So maybe, um, I think it wasmaybe 45 minutes to an hour,
okay.
And then she comes back intoday and she was.
I mean you, you know, you seepeople in pain every day.
You know it's like you couldtell she was hurting.
I mean she rated her pain scalea 9 out of 10, and it was
visible in her face Like youcould tell it wasn't a good day.
Dr. Mark Moran (22:18):
I'm sure it was worse than normal because she
had this relief, yeah, and sheforgot how bad it hurt.
Yeah, exactly so then when thatrebound pain comes back, it's
much worse.
It can be worse, totally getthat.
Dr. Kevin Barton (22:27):
Yes, so she sits down and within three
minutes of her being on themachine, we zero her back out
and then she feels amazing andshe leaves smiling and happy.
Dr. Mark Moran (22:37):
So what the?
Dr. Kevin Barton (22:38):
expectation is is that each time we do the
therapy, we get a little longerpain relief and eventually we're
going to break through to wherewe get more than 24 hours of
relief, and then days of relief,and then months, years or
longer, and so some patientswill go through maybe three to
five sessions and that's it andthat's all they need.
Or some patients might gothrough 10.
Most patients are going to gothrough 10 or less treatments.
(23:01):
It's incredible.
I've never seen anything likeit.
Dr. Mark Moran (23:03):
I mean it?
Dr. Kevin Barton (23:04):
was literally almost miraculous.
Dr. Mark Moran (23:05):
You're scrambling my mind just thinking
about it.
I don't even know how todescribe it.
Dr. Kevin Barton (23:13):
I mean, I think it's a pretty fitting name
.
So I'm getting to go to, uh,rome, at the university of rome,
oh, in january I'm sorry it'sterrible.
I mean I look for any excuse tolike travel and do fun stuff,
but uh get to go meet giuseppemarineo the inventor and train
with him in the hospital, uh,and literally like treat
patients with him yeah so it'sgoing to be a fantastic week so
then we'll have to have you backon.
Yes.
Dr. Mark Moran (23:34):
And all of our viewers can see how the training
goes.
Dr. Kevin Barton (23:37):
Yes, the training's progressing.
That's great.
Dr. Mark Moran (23:38):
I had a similar patient with CRPS, which is a
bad nerve problem.
People know it's a horriblenerve problem in her arms and we
did a spinal cord stimulator.
And the point is when she cameback and she had the trial she
literally ran and jumped in myarms and almost knocked me over
because she said I have my lifeback.
Dr. Kevin Barton (23:57):
Yes.
Dr. Mark Moran (23:58):
It seems like very similar to what you're
telling me Exactly yeah,incredible, and what else could
you want as a doctor?
Dr. Kevin Barton (24:03):
I mean, that's why we're here, to help people.
Yeah, it's the most Absolutely.
Dr. Mark Moran (24:09):
Especially to that significance of nine years
of having spongy feet and painand everything.
It's all the things they don'ttell you.
But you know, comes with it,the sleeping there their energy
goes down.
They're feeling bad becausethey're not doing things with
their family or friends.
Dr. Kevin Barton (24:22):
I mean, this was the second girl I was
mentioning that had theamputation.
It was a crazy story.
So she was 30 years old.
Um, get first day on the job asa police officer, get shot with
an ak-47 oh really and it blewout so she had partial cauda
coena syndrome thanks to all thepolicemen out there and firemen
yes, first responders.
Dr. Mark Moran (24:42):
Thank you so much this told me story no one
would ever know.
Does he literally yeah?
Dr. Kevin Barton (24:46):
just terrible, terrible situation.
And, uh, she's lived with painever since 16 years.
Dr. Mark Moran (24:50):
She's been been miserable.
Dr. Kevin Barton (24:51):
How old is she ?
Yeah, oh, young, she's like 46.
Yeah, yeah, you know, youngerthan us.
Dr. Mark Moran (25:01):
Can we delete that part out?
So thank you for doing that.
That's great that she can.
She can have that back andthese guys with their peripheral
neuropathy are feeling better.
That's awesome.
Dr. Kevin Barton (25:11):
It's fun.
That's very good.
I love doing stuff that is justlife-changing for patients.
Dr. Mark Moran (25:17):
Yeah, absolutely , and it's good that you're on
the breaking edge and trendingup and trying to learn new stuff
.
Dr. Kevin Barton (25:21):
I think that's great, very good.
Dr. Mark Moran (25:23):
I should have known you were going to tell me
something crazy like that Alwaysbuilding, pushing boundaries.
Dr. Kevin Barton (25:27):
Always.
Dr. Mark Moran (25:28):
That's good.
Yeah, that's why you're sosuccessful.
Maybe I should take lessonsfrom you.
Cool, what else?
Do you have any other storiesto tell me?
Dr. Kevin Barton (25:37):
Well shoot.
What do you want to learn about?
Well, first we have to have aword from our sponsors.
Dr. Mark Moran (25:44):
Okay, let's do it and we're back.
Okay, go ahead and tell us thisother story.
Dr. Kevin Barton (25:50):
You want to talk about something medical,
something interesting.
Dr. Mark Moran (25:53):
Whatever, something we can teach the
viewers, okay, the viewer.
Dr. Kevin Barton (25:57):
So another really fascinating thing we're
doing, and I don't think a lotof people I mean.
How much interaction did youget with interventional
radiology when you were inmedical school?
Dr. Mark Moran (26:06):
No none.
Dr. Kevin Barton (26:06):
Or in residency.
Very little, very little,probably any.
So when we talk about theseinterventional radiology
procedures, most doctors evenyou know high level physicians
like I would consider.
Obviously you're a specialist,so you typically know more than
you know, some doctors for sureand um, they just it's like
you're looking through somebodyand they just don't even
(26:29):
understand and don't even get it.
So there are some newmusculoskeletal, vascular
procedures to treat.
We're going to talk about a bigfancy word here called
angiogenesis.
Dr. Mark Moran (26:40):
So, angiogenesis .
Dr. Kevin Barton (26:41):
So for those of you who don't know and I've
never heard this, probably notmany, I didn't even really
understand this until I reallystarted studying it.
But basically what happens whensomeone is injured, our body
grows vessels, new blood vesselsto compensate for the injury,
to basically send in oxygen, tosend in blood, to get things to
(27:02):
start healing properly.
Dr. Mark Moran (27:03):
You need oxygen and blood to heal.
Dr. Kevin Barton (27:04):
Yes, I learned that in medical school.
Dr. Mark Moran (27:06):
Oh, thank God, you do need oxygen and blood to
heal.
Yes, and if you?
Dr. Kevin Barton (27:10):
don't have that.
Obviously things heal a lotslower.
So it's our body's naturaldefense mechanism.
Dr. Mark Moran (27:15):
So it's like sending out an SOS.
It's why discs have a hard timehealing.
Dr. Kevin Barton (27:18):
Yeah, no blood supply.
Dr. Mark Moran (27:19):
There's not a lot of blood supply, yeah.
Dr. Kevin Barton (27:20):
So spinal discs are avascular Right and
then when they get hurt it justtends to get worse from there.
Dr. Mark Moran (27:25):
There's not.
Dr. Kevin Barton (27:27):
Exactly so.
The same, the same goes witharthritis.
So cartilage has very poor, ifany, blood supply, so it's
almost an avascular structurelike the disc.
And so when we injure thecartilage, especially at a young
age, like maybe an ACL tear ora meniscus injury, it's sort of
downhill from there.
But patients may not experiencesymptoms for a long time.
But these angiogenic bloodvessels are developing, the new
(27:50):
blood vessels, yeah, and sothey're new and they're somewhat
abnormal to a degree becauselittle tiny nerve endings get in
there as well.
So this is calledneovascularization.
So there's a nerve ending withall these new blood vessels and
the problem is a lot of theseblood vessels are new, they're
immature blood vessels and theyleak fluid into the joint.
So it causes an inflammatoryresponse and then it triggers
(28:11):
cytokines and this starts avicious cycle of inflammation
and pain and inflammation.
So when we start out early inthe disease process, when we
have mild arthritis, things tendto work okay, like ibuprofen,
motrin, aleve, but it's able tooverpower the effects of the
angiogenesis because theinflammation is sort of mild.
(28:32):
Sure, then we progress to okay,that doesn't work anymore.
So the next thing would be maybesteroid injection.
Steroid injection is a littlestronger than the previous stuff
.
So that tends to work okay fora while.
But then what do you do after?
You have knee injections forarthritis and then nothing else
works.
There's always been this gap inthe paradigm between what do
you do after knee injections.
(28:53):
You typically have knee surgery, and it's a big step for a
patient, especially if they'reyounger, like maybe 50 or maybe
60.
And they're like I'm just notquite ready for a knee
replacement.
So there's never been a stopgapin between until now.
And so now what we do is weattack that source of
inflammation by going in andtreating those angiogenic blood
vessels.
And it's really simple we justgo in through a femoral approach
(29:16):
, go in through the blood vesseltrack a little tiny micro
catheter under x-ray guidance.
We have a vascular package onour C-arm.
And so we see all this underx-ray guidance.
Inject a little contrast.
There's eight blood vesselsthat supply the knee joint.
They're called the geniculararteries, so the procedure is
(29:37):
called a genicular arteryembolization.
So what we're doing is we'reblocking the blood flow just to
the angiogenic blood vessels,not to the main arteries.
Dr. Mark Moran (29:42):
So we want to leave the main arteries to the
people, so to the new bloodvessels that are there from the
injury, that's right.
Dr. Kevin Barton (29:46):
So the ones that are responsible for the
inflammation and pain.
So we take care of those.
We knock those out by injectingthese little tiny.
We call them like particles ofsand.
They're actually made of likegelatin, the little flexible,
tiny balls.
Dr. Mark Moran (29:59):
They're not.
Dr. Kevin Barton (30:00):
They're not microscopic, but it basically
clots off the artery.
So as we stop blood flow tothat, all those vessels and
those nerve endings that arecausing a hypersensitivity of
pain and causing your painthreshold to go down, making
things that wouldn't normally bepainful painful, we knock all
that out and patients get betterfast.
So they'll get better inusually about three to five days
(30:22):
and start seeing big signs ofimprovement, and they may get
years of relief.
Dr. Mark Moran (30:27):
Yeah, that's great.
Dr. Kevin Barton (30:28):
Years plural.
I mean it's unbelievable from a30,.
It takes us anywhere from 30minutes to an hour to perform
the procedure.
It's unbelievable, I mean it'salmost as cool as the scrambler
therapy.
Dr. Mark Moran (30:39):
I like the scrambler therapy.
Dr. Kevin Barton (30:40):
I like the scrambler therapy, yeah, and is
that covered by insurance?
So the vascular procedure, yes,covered by most insurances, the
scrambler therapy,unfortunately not governor
insurance cash procedures, butstill amazing.
Dr. Mark Moran (30:52):
Yeah, still new, yeah, still new.
Okay, well, you're definitelycooler than me.
Dr. Kevin Barton (30:56):
I mean yeah.
Dr. Mark Moran (30:57):
I noticed you didn't say no, always have been,
haven't I?
No, no, I'm not.
That's what I'm expecting.
You didn't say anything.
That's okay, very good.
Anything else you want to tellus or teach us our viewers?
Dr. Kevin Barton (31:10):
You know, I mean I love what you're doing.
I think it's amazing thatyou're spending time to educate
patients.
I think one of the hardestthings in medicine today is, you
know, back to those insurancefolks.
You know a lot of people thinkdoctors make a ton of money and
I mean there probably are somephysicians out there who do well
, but reimbursements areactually quite low for what we
(31:33):
do.
I think and the risk that youtake.
I mean you're putting a needleinto someone's spine, I mean a
millimeter sometimes fromsomebody's spinal cord.
That could be very precariousif you didn't know what you're
doing, obviously.
And you do this for, like on amedicare patient, like less than
200, and it takes like 15minutes to do it, which doesn't
(31:54):
sound like that takes long, butit takes like time to turn the
room over and get anotherpatient.
So I mean it's a lot less thanwhat people think, a lot less, a
lot less.
So, unfortunately, what I'mgetting at and the point is is
that insurances don't pay uswell enough to spend time
educating patients.
I mean, I think you, I thinkour office does a fantastic job
(32:18):
educating patients.
We'll spend the time withpatients, but I just don't hear
it from our patients when theysee other doctors.
Sometimes it's like oh, he justtold me I needed this surgery
or that surgery and didn'texplain anything and walked out
of the room and said Mary,you'll schedule the other run.
And it's like it leaves patientsnot understanding what their
condition is.
I mean, I can't tell you howmany patients I've seen for knee
(32:47):
arthritis that didn'tunderstand that knee arthritis
was just simply you were losingsome cartilage in the joint.
They, it does no comprehension,but they nobody had ever taken
the time to explain it or whatall the options were, how
important weight loss is for thespine or for the knee joint.
You know they say for every 10pounds you're overweight is 40
extra pounds on the knee, soit's a huge deal to just lose
(33:09):
some weight.
So if you're 100 poundsoverweight, you have 400 extra
pounds on your knee.
I'm sure there's a similarstatistic for the spine, for the
lower back.
So if you're, overweight andyou're putting all that
additional pressure on your disc.
I promise the discs are wearingout faster than they should,
absolutely without a doubt, andthey're well.
I guess there is such a thingas a disc replacement sort of in
the low back I think it worksbetter in the neck, but less
(33:31):
weight.
Dr. Mark Moran (33:31):
Yeah, yeah, so yeah, but you're right that the
problem is that medicine isbecoming much more of a business
than it is the art to helpingpeople.
Because of the nature of thebusiness, you have have to
generate money, because expensesare going up and people want to
be seen.
Did you get a?
Dr. Kevin Barton (33:45):
raise when inflation went up.
Dr. Mark Moran (33:48):
Did.
Dr. Kevin Barton (33:48):
Medicare call you and say Dr Moran, we feel so
sorry for you, we should giveyou a raise, because I think
everybody got a raise butphysicians.
And it goes down and down anddown.
I've never seen an increase inreimbursement in 21 years.
Dr. Mark Moran (34:03):
I've never.
Seen it, never.
And the problem is we don't getpaid to educate patients.
Dr. Kevin Barton (34:08):
We don't.
There's not a code for that,which is probably one of the
most important things.
Dr. Mark Moran (34:12):
It is the most important thing.
Dr. Kevin Barton (34:13):
I mean one of the guidelines in the American
Academy of Orthopedic Surgeryrecently talked about how
important educating a patient onarthritis was, and it was
literally one of the keycomponents and one of the most
effective things you can do forarthritis.
But I guarantee you that's notbeing done very well.
Dr. Mark Moran (34:30):
Which brings me to my point of my online course.
So I have an online course.
I don't know if you know aboutthat.
Dr. Kevin Barton (34:36):
No, I did see the text where you sent out a
huge text thread to a lot ofpeople.
Dr. Mark Moran (34:41):
And you were announcing.
You're the only person I sentit to.
Dr. Kevin Barton (34:46):
I was the lone one.
No, I did see that you weremaking a push to do something
really cool and innovative, andI've never seen a doctor do this
, so congratulations.
Dr. Mark Moran (34:56):
That's amazing.
That's part of the problem.
So did you know?
I got my MBA.
What, what.
Dr. Kevin Barton (35:01):
What I can't say.
I'm surprised.
Dr. Mark Moran (35:03):
I got my MBA last year and my graduating
project was come up with abusiness.
Dr. Kevin Barton (35:07):
Nice so.
Dr. Mark Moran (35:08):
I decided to come up with an online course,
because right now I see patientsone at a time, but on an online
course I can see patientsmultiple at a time 24-7.
Dr. Kevin Barton (35:16):
Yes.
Dr. Mark Moran (35:17):
So I came up with the world's biggest cause
of disability, which is low backpain.
Dr. Kevin Barton (35:22):
Low back pain Shocker.
Dr. Mark Moran (35:23):
So I went after that and I came up with this
video course.
It's called One Month MD.
I can teach you everything youneed to know about treating and
causes and prevention of lowback pain in one month.
Dr. Kevin Barton (35:33):
Nice, so it's One.
Dr. Mark Moran (35:34):
Month MD and we're doing low back pain causes
.
So it's 10 minutes a day forabout four weeks and I give you
Fridays off.
Dr. Kevin Barton (35:43):
Well, that's awfully nice.
Dr. Mark Moran (35:49):
And what I'm trying to do is I'm trying to
build a habit for patients totake 10 minutes.
While you're having coffee,you're relaxing, watch the
videos and you can learn aboutthe causes and treatments of low
back pain, so you can be anactive participant in your
health instead of a passiverecipient.
And then you're halfway todeveloping a habit to using that
10 minutes instead of watchingvideos.
It's a genius, go do yoga, Ilove it.
Try to do some exercises.
Dr. Kevin Barton (36:08):
You know, I will tell.
Speaking of yoga, I will tellyou.
I tell patients all the time,if people would just do yoga, I
mean it would put chiropractorsout of business.
I swear to you Like I'm a hugeproponent of yoga.
So if you've never tried yoga,go try it.
It's amazing.
You know what?
If you really get into thehabit of it, it's awesome.
Dr. Mark Moran (36:27):
How many doctors in a small room doing a podcast
will agree yoga is important?
Dr. Kevin Barton (36:31):
Well, two, two out of two.
Dr. Mark Moran (36:33):
Because I love yoga.
I do yoga all the time.
It's incredible.
I did one this morning.
It was actually really hardthis morning and I totally agree
with you.
I think that after 40.
I think I did yoga with yourbrother one time.
Do you remember that?
I do remember that.
Yeah, that's another story foranother time, but I do think
it's very important.
I think anyone over 40, just tomobilize the joints and get
(36:55):
stretching and range of motionyoga is one of the easiest and
best things you can do yoga isone of the easiest and best
things you can do.
Dr. Kevin Barton (37:03):
It will melt spinal pain away.
I mean, there may still be someunderlying issues there
sometimes that still need to betreated, but I'll tell you, for
the most part it would greatlyimprove well, function,
flexibility, I mean a lot ofthings, and then the things that
you do, and potentially thethings that I do, would work
better and last longer and theywould need us less so we need to
have a yoga, a yogi.
Dr. Mark Moran (37:22):
We need to have a yogi on the podcast.
Attention, all you yogis outthere.
If you want to come on, let meknow, or maybe I can invite some
of my friends that do yoga.
Dr. Kevin Barton (37:31):
Yeah, absolutely, that's a great idea.
Dr. Mark Moran (37:33):
I'm actually having a personal trainer on
that does yoga, so maybe he canteach me some new stuff.
Dr. Kevin Barton (37:43):
There you go, but, yes, totally agree, yoga is
the key.
So tell me, tell me about thecourse.
Is this something you're going?
Dr. Mark Moran (37:45):
to test people on Well a lot of times.
I just encourage patients to godo it or see what they do so
they can get the benefits Now doyou know how much they
participate in it?
Yeah, we can track them, oh, wecan track them, and at the end
they get a little certificateand we're going after everyone.
It's not just patients, it'semployers, because patients with
back pains.
Healthcare expenses are 60%higher with back pain than
(38:06):
without.
Any employer in the countrywill have 15% of their workforce
.
Lose 10 work days a year fromlow back pain.
Oh, I believe it so think aboutthe revenues on that.
I just did a talk for a bigschool district.
They have 20,000 employees.
So every year they have 3,000employees that lose 10 days a
year from low back pain.
So that's 30,000 work days ayear.
Dr. Kevin Barton (38:28):
Holy smokes, that is unbelievable, and that's
, I mean, the burden that is onthe system is tremendous.
Dr. Mark Moran (38:36):
And talk about that is.
You know we do all these things.
I'm kind of getting off on thisLost productivity For taking
care of the students.
But fundamentally, to take careof the students, you have to
take care of the teachers.
So they say why would you focuson investing in all the
students' well-being and health,and education and strategies to
train them to be a betterteacher?
You have to take care ofyourself, right?
(38:57):
And the example I give is whenyou get on an airplane.
What does the stewardess say?
First, put the oxygen onyourself, yes, so you can help
others.
Dr. Kevin Barton (39:04):
Isn't that the truth?
Dr. Mark Moran (39:06):
You're taking care of yourself so you can help
others.
I'm taking care of myself so Ican help others.
Teachers need to take care ofthemselves so they can help
others.
Dr. Kevin Barton (39:13):
Well, and you've seen what fantastic guy's
in you know, so it it means alot when you go to a physician
who does take care of themselvesI try, I like to practice what
I preach.
Dr. Mark Moran (39:23):
That's right.
Yeah, that's awesome, you dotoo, yes, very good 100 very
good.
So is there anything else weneed to share publicly or we can
share publicly?
Or do you have a funny storyyou want to tell me?
Are we just going to say enoughis enough I know you have a
funny story.
Dr. Kevin Barton (39:38):
Funny story.
Funny story Nothing's coming tomind.
Well, it's almost the holidays,yeah, Leaving tomorrow.
Family trip Nice, Portugal andMorocco Nice, so super fun.
So my son mentioned flyingearlier.
My 17-year-old is applying tothe Air Force Academy Awesome.
So on December 1st he appliesfor summer camp and if he gets
(40:02):
into summer camp it's reallygood.
But I mean he's doing amazingSuper cool, super fun.
Dr. Mark Moran (40:06):
That'd be awesome.
That's a great school.
Yes, I've been there.
Have you been there?
Dr. Kevin Barton (40:09):
Yes, it's incredible.
Dr. Mark Moran (40:14):
We went in March for a tour, very good.
So, kevin, thank you so muchfor coming on.
I appreciate it you taught me alot of good stuff, so teach me
good stuff.
I'm always interested inlearning new stuff, so you
taught me lots of good stuff andI appreciate that.
I'm sure our viewer reallyappreciated it Our one viewer.
Hopefully it's more than one.
Dr. Kevin Barton (40:34):
We're trying to help out, that's right.
We're trying to do our job.
Dr. Mark Moran (40:37):
Tell your friends to do our job.
So tell your friends.
Tell your friends, right, yes,go see Dr Kevin Barton and Texas
spine clinic.
Is that your name?
Oh, yes, that's right.
Yep, yes, that's right, that ismy name.
Dr. Kevin Barton (40:46):
Yes, texas spine clinic, and then we have
our sister business, all in thesame building as arthritis
relief and vascular centers.
So with that business we focusmostly on knee arthritis and
then joint pain in general wedon't do a lot of spinal stuff
over there.
And then, uh, the new vascularstuff that we talked about.
We do uterine fibroids as well,and we do men with large
(41:08):
prostates.
Know anybody with a largeprostate?
I'm sure I do.
Statistically they say anyone.
So men over the age of 50 50%.
So not me, no, no.
Next year, next year so men overthe age of 50, between 50 and
60, 50% will have an enlargedprostate, and then so we'll talk
(41:31):
about this on another podcast.
Dr. Mark Moran (41:32):
But it's just really cool stuff.
So you're going to come back.
Dr. Kevin Barton (41:35):
Well, maybe, if you invite me back, yeah.
Dr. Mark Moran (41:37):
You're always you know what I'm going to give
you a lifetime membership to thepodcast.
All right, bring some tools,bring some games, we'll have
some fun hey whenever you'reready to have me back.
Dr. Kevin Barton (41:46):
I have a lot of other really cool stuff to
talk about, so our whole mantrais is we're trying to prevent
trying to give people betteroptions than surgery with less
recovery time less risk and getthem back to feeling good and
back to work in very shortamount of time.
Dr. Mark Moran (42:03):
That's great, yeah, weak or less.
Surgery is great when you needsurgery, when you need it, when
you need it, surgery is great.
Dr. Kevin Barton (42:09):
But it goes back to that conservative
approach and starting out withthe things that make sense first
and then leaving surgery as alast resort.
Dr. Mark Moran (42:16):
I think that's very logical.
Dr. Kevin Barton (42:18):
Unless it's an emergency.
Dr. Mark Moran (42:19):
Unless it's an emergency, there's reasons to do
anything.
There is yeah, very good.
So thank you so much, Thanksfor having me.
Dr. Kevin Barton (42:24):
Thanks for having me, Dr.
Dr. Mark Moran (42:25):
Moran.
Thank you guys, and if any ofyou guys have suggestions or
want to come on and teach meabout something or talk to your
community, please let me know we.
Thank you very much for joining us.
This is Dr Mark Moran.
We are here to help youunderstand what's going on in
your life, with your pain withyour back and anything else we
can help you with as far ascommunity involvement.
This is my good friend.
What's your name?
Dr. Kevin Barton (00:19):
You know, I'm actually really bad about that.
Somebody I've known for 15 or20 years and I'm like I stumble
with their name when I get puton the spot.
So yeah, Kevin Barton, I'm achiropractor.
I've known, uh, Dr Moran.
For how long we've been witheach other like 10 more than 10
years.
Dr. Mark Moran (00:33):
Yeah, it's a long time.
Dr. Kevin Barton (00:34):
Yeah, a long time but we both still look
young.
Well, I hope so that's good.
Dr. Mark Moran (00:41):
It's been a long time it has been, it's been
very good friend helped me out alot, yes, so I appreciate that.
Oh, anytime so anyone that hasproblems that needs a
chiropractor go see Dr Barton.
He's a good guy.
He'll take good care of you.
Dr. Kevin Barton (00:52):
Absolutely.
Dr. Mark Moran (00:53):
Okay, next, we've got to give a shout out to
the wonderful people that areletting us use this room.
If your needs, go to Hapathyand they will take good care of
you.
And the other shout out I wantto do is for Toolbox Studios.
They helped me with my websiteand all my marketing.
Both of them are very goodmarketers.
Please use them.
Dr. Kevin Barton (01:12):
Sounds good.
Dr. Mark Moran (01:12):
There you go, so what have you been up to?
Dr. Kevin Barton (01:15):
Man a lot.
We have been through someserious transformations.
You have 15 seconds.
Yes, that's pretty fast.
I might be able to do it all inabout 15 months.
Dr. Mark Moran (01:26):
Do we have that much time?
Can you maybe give me just highlevel summary?
Dr. Kevin Barton (01:29):
High level summary yes, so we did a little
transition with our mainpractice and brought in an
interventional radiology groupto start doing interventional
radiology procedures.
So we are doing anything fromknee arthritis treatments
through a vascular approach tofrozen shoulder syndrome,
plantar fasciitis, so we'redoing a number of
(01:51):
musculoskeletal type vascularprocedures, which is cutting
edge.
Super brand new came out ofJapan.
A guy in Japan started it about15 years ago and it's just kind
of made its way to the Statesin the last seven, eight years.
Awesome stuff.
We'll talk more about that someother time, but uh, so that.
And then we started a brand newtherapy with our chiropractic
(02:12):
office called scrambler therapy.
Dr. Mark Moran (02:15):
Scrambler, scrambler.
What a name Like a breakfasttaco at Benny's or something.
Dr. Kevin Barton (02:19):
Yeah, More maybe like scrambling the brain.
No, in a good way I like it.
Yeah, we'll talk more aboutthat.
We have to talk about thattonight okay, super exciting.
Dr. Mark Moran (02:28):
I will definitely talk about scrambling
.
Dr. Kevin Barton (02:29):
I just like the name yeah, it's super cool,
it's catchy.
Okay, you'll remember it.
You'll be like do I have?
Peripheral neuropathy.
Dr. Mark Moran (02:35):
Oh, I heard something about scrambler
therapy yeah, so I will not everforget that yeah, okay well,
last time we saw each other, Iremember you were expanding to
other cities and about to takeover the country well, that was
the intent, and then, apparently, the insurance companies had
other ideas.
Dr. Kevin Barton (02:53):
Oh, and so they went through this in 2022,
a 60 cut in those gel injectionsthat we do for the knee, and
they literally just squashed ourreimbursement.
So bad that we were like, buton the brakes.
Dr. Mark Moran (03:08):
And then that's when we brought in the
intervention let me get thisstraight you have problems with
insurances well, every day, allday long, because that's the
life I live I understand, I feelyour pain and I'm a pain doctor
it's a oh man, that's like adouble.
Dr. Kevin Barton (03:22):
I know I understand what you're.
You should have no pain, sinceyou're a pain doctor.
Dr. Mark Moran (03:27):
I personally don't have pain, but dealing
with the insurance company isfrequently painful because they
limit things we can do for ourpatients.
Dr. Kevin Barton (03:33):
Well, you know , I say I never really
understand how insurancecompanies get away with
practicing medicine without alicense, right, I mean, that's
the truth.
Oh yeah, because they'redictating the care 100%.
Yeah, and then we'll see crazythings like a pediatrician
giving recommendations for apain procedure or an
interventional radiologyprocedure.
I'm like what in the worldthat's?
Dr. Mark Moran (03:56):
because you're thinking logically Exactly.
Dr. Kevin Barton (03:58):
You can't do that, throw that out the window.
Dr. Mark Moran (04:00):
Throw it out the window.
Dr. Kevin Barton (04:00):
Because any time you're dealing with an
insurance company, not much islogical.
Dr. Mark Moran (04:04):
Clearly, I agree , yeah, I agree, okay, so,
anyway, so good to have you on.
Dr. Kevin Barton (04:10):
Yeah, thanks for coming on Well.
Thank you, I feel honored to behere.
Dr. Mark Moran (04:13):
Well, I'm honored that you're here.
Well, good, it's good, it'sgood, so I'm going to put you on
the spot.
Dr. Kevin Barton (04:18):
Yes, so everyone to know you a little
bit.
Sure, teach me the mostexciting thing that you ever did
in your life, the most excitingthing I've ever done in my life
.
Dr. Mark Moran (04:29):
I mean because you've got a lot of exciting
things.
Dr. Kevin Barton (04:31):
I do a lot of exciting stuff.
I am a bit of an adrenalinejunkie to some degree.
I I fly a lot of airplanes.
I've been flying airplanes for25 years.
Um, probably the most excitingthing was learning how to fly
helicopters during okay, covid.
Dr. Mark Moran (04:45):
Okay, so I remember you're doing that.
Yeah, I had a lot of time on myhands.
Dr. Kevin Barton (04:49):
I had always wanted to do it and I was like
I'm gonna get my helicopterlicense.
And I, I did that, bought a fewhelicopters and I mean there's
enough.
Dr. Mark Moran (04:58):
In my opinion, nothing more fun than flying
helicopters almost nothing okay,so you fly multiple helicopters
, but you're still late to gethere.
Dr. Kevin Barton (05:07):
Well, I mean, unfortunately they don't really
let us land these thingsanywhere.
Dr. Mark Moran (05:11):
Oh, you can't land on top of the building.
Dr. Kevin Barton (05:12):
No, they tend to frown on that.
Dr. Mark Moran (05:14):
That would be great if you could do that.
Dr. Kevin Barton (05:16):
Without permission, at least.
Dr. Mark Moran (05:18):
I'm giving you a hard time.
That's awesome.
I thought it would certainly belike swimming with the sharks.
Dr. Kevin Barton (05:24):
I do like swimming with sharks.
That's pretty fun too.
Dr. Mark Moran (05:26):
Oh, I'll tell you, I did have an amazing
experience.
Dr. Kevin Barton (05:28):
recently, I spent a month in Southeast Asia
by myself.
Wow, and it was a phenomenaltrip.
Started in Singapore, went toBali, but I spent two weeks on a
liveaboard dive boat and dovefour times a day Tons of
sharksons, of manta rays.
If you've never seen a mantaray in real life, let me tell
you.
It's unbelievable.
(05:48):
The span was like 15 feet Onone dive.
We saw over 30 manta rays onone dive.
It was insane.
Okay, so that was really cool.
Dr. Mark Moran (05:58):
Well, I went to Chick-fil-A last night, does
that count?
For anything that's not superexciting, is it though?
I think it is.
Dr. Kevin Barton (06:06):
Yeah, certainly probably not as
exciting as you, I mean.
Dr. Mark Moran (06:08):
Merrill diving Asia.
Dr. Kevin Barton (06:10):
Chick-fil-A.
It's all relative.
It's all relative yeah.
Dr. Mark Moran (06:13):
I knew you'd have a more exciting story than
I would have.
Dr. Kevin Barton (06:15):
Sure, okay, well, thanks for sharing that.
Dr. Mark Moran (06:18):
I appreciate that.
So what we're doing here is wewant.
We want to try and help peopleout, educate them, because
knowledge is power.
Dr. Kevin Barton (06:24):
Yes.
Dr. Mark Moran (06:24):
Okay, we want them to be active participants,
not passive recipients, in theirhealth, absolutely.
So we want to empower them withknowledge so they won't hurt
themselves, and then they don'tcome see us.
Dr. Kevin Barton (06:33):
No kidding, we're trying to prevent them
from coming see us Absolutely.
Dr. Mark Moran (06:35):
Right.
So can you tell me and ourviewers appreciate that some
examples of common things yousee during the wintertime, the
holidays coming, and what peoplecan do to help prevent those
injuries?
Teach me something and thenI'll teach you something
Absolutely.
Dr. Kevin Barton (06:54):
I think of two things when I think of
Christmas.
I think of unnecessary fallsoff ladders from putting up
Christmas lights.
Dr. Mark Moran (07:01):
That's what I was going to say.
Seriously, yeah, yeah, peoplereaching to the side.
Dr. Kevin Barton (07:05):
Oh man, I can't tell you how many people
had a, really bad injury likeobviously a femur fracture or
something worse, hip fracture,and then, of course, they tend
to injure their spinesimultaneously, and so they're
coming to us for their spineproblem, but the injury was
really much worse in terms offractures and things like that.
So that's top of mind.
(07:25):
Number two would probably justbe lifting, lifting heavy boxes
for this or that.
My big thing as far as teachingpatients and education is don't
lift and twist at the same time.
Lift and then turn your hips andturn your legs and turn your
body, but don't lift and twistat the waist, because that's how
(07:46):
we shear.
That shearing motion on thedisc is what hurts the disc
under compression.
So a compressive load with theshear is how a lot of people
rupture the disc.
Dr. Mark Moran (07:56):
Right, and the example I see of that is when
older people, or I'll say peoplewith more life experience, go
to see their families and theybend down to pick up a grandkid
and then they lift and twist thekid up like that, absolutely.
You see, that all the time?
Yes, the other thing I see isluggage.
When you're on a flight, whatdo you do?
You lift your luggage up andtry to put up a thing and you
(08:16):
get herniated disc or you cantear your shoulder.
Yeah, exactly, literally.
Yeah.
I have one patient who bentover to get some casserole or
something out of the fridge andhe sneezed at the exact same
time.
So he was bent over and thenincreased his pressure in his
abdomen and just came up with ahorrible bulging disc.
Dr. Kevin Barton (08:34):
Terrible, horrible, terrible, horrible.
Dr. Mark Moran (08:41):
Terrible.
So certainly the ladder thingwhere you go off to the side is
very, very concerning.
Don't get on ladders, they'revery dangerous.
Dr. Kevin Barton (08:48):
They are very dangerous.
Dr. Mark Moran (08:49):
They lose balance.
You'll fall.
It'll fall on you.
You'll hurt yourself.
Dr. Kevin Barton (08:52):
I tell people that all the time Stay away from
ladders.
Dr. Mark Moran (08:54):
I know I often think I should advertise on
ladders.
Dr. Kevin Barton (08:58):
Well, that might be helpful.
We might drum up some businessthat I put a stamp above the
third step and say above thislevel, get ready to call Dr
Moran.
Literally.
Dr. Mark Moran (09:05):
There you go.
So I get that one, I get thelifting thing.
Dr. Kevin Barton (09:09):
I get the the castrol thing.
Dr. Mark Moran (09:11):
The other one I get a lot is people that travel.
They stay in hotels or foreignbeds and they get cervical neck
pain, absolutely.
The beds aren't verycomfortable or it's just sitting
down a long time.
They get a lot of SI joint pain.
Dr. Kevin Barton (09:22):
No kidding, a lot of back pain like that.
Do you see that?
A lot too I do, thinking ofjust changing beds and changing
pillows.
I know me personally, you knowI mean it's.
Everybody thinks it's reallyfunny when a chiropractor has
their own back and neck pain.
But I suffer from it too, justlike everybody else.
You know it's like your neck,your body gets used to a certain
(09:47):
thing and then when you?
Switch it up.
It's like, oh, why is my headelevated so much?
and then you know you wake upwith a crick in your neck, or
your neck super tight, stiff,all you know it's very common?
Dr. Mark Moran (09:58):
yep, I get that too.
I get that too.
See my other list um doing newthings.
Your body is not used to.
Dr. Kevin Barton (10:06):
I mean, you know what comes to mind there is
.
Everybody's getting close tothe new year, so everybody is
sort of thinking about okay,what's my new year's resolution?
I'm going to start getting backinto the gym or I'm going to
start doing more activity ormore walking, and they just bite
off more than they should toofast, so I think they overdo it.
Dr. Mark Moran (10:25):
Absolutely.
I totally agree with that andmy perspective is people that go
skiing once a year snow skiingor snowboarding for the first
time, or they get with theirfamily and friends.
They're like oh, I can do that,and they don't realize that
they have more life experiencethis year than last year and
they just do things that theirmuscles and tendons and
ligaments aren't used to oradapted to.
Dr. Kevin Barton (10:45):
And by more life experience you mean a
little more time has passed,that's what I mean.
They're not as young as theywere.
Dr. Mark Moran (10:50):
That's what I mean.
They have more life experience.
That's just the way I say it.
Dr. Kevin Barton (10:56):
Absolutely, it is true.
Everyone has more lifeexperience every day, every day.
Dr. Mark Moran (11:01):
Good, so we see the same problems.
Dr. Kevin Barton (11:03):
We do, we do see that.
Dr. Mark Moran (11:04):
And you have helped me out a lot with my
patients, so thank you very muchfor all your help, yeah, and
you've done the same for us.
I appreciate that.
But what I want to talk aboutnow is because I have lots of
patients that come in and theysay what do you want to do with
me?
And I say, well, here's youroptions.
Obviously, one of my firstoptions is conservative things
like physical therapy orchiropractor.
Dr. Kevin Barton (11:20):
Yes.
Dr. Mark Moran (11:21):
And a lot of patients.
Dr. Kevin Barton (11:22):
And that makes a ton of sense, by the way.
Oh, thank you.
Start conservatively and workour way up.
It seems pretty simple.
Dr. Mark Moran (11:29):
It seems pretty simple.
I'm not a rocket scientist.
I don't see that every day.
I'm not a rocket scientist.
Dr. Kevin Barton (11:34):
Yeah, it seems pretty simple.
Try conservatively, it soundslike very good medicine.
Oh, thank you.
Dr. Mark Moran (11:52):
I appreciate that.
So the question they have iswhat do chiropractors do that
physical therapists can't do?
And they just crack my backright.
So give me a quick summary ofwhat a chiropractor can offer
you and how they differ fromphysical therapists, and some of
the advantages, or anything issure, yeah that's a super good
question.
Dr. Kevin Barton (11:58):
You know, probably when I started out in
chiropractic and I've beenpracticing for 21 years now it
was probably a little differentthan that it is now.
Most physical therapists do notmanipulate the way chiropractors
do.
Some do, and some have beentrained in it, but they don't
train every single day of theirsort of chiropractic education
(12:20):
like we do, and so in myexperience they tend to not be
as proficient.
It is a skill, it's a verytechnical skill and you have to
have a feeling for it, and wejust have a lot more background
in that.
One major thing which is againvery technical.
Dr. Mark Moran (12:36):
So let me interrupt.
When you say manipulate, you'resaying that as a movement or
joint type thing.
Yeah, so like the situation.
Dr. Kevin Barton (12:42):
Yeah, yeah, exactly.
So we're saying like mobilizingthe joint.
So if we're mobilizing thespine because it's tight or
restricted or it's stiff or it'stight, probably I mean I'm just
I'm throwing a number out there, but I would say probably less
than 10 percent of physicaltherapists adjust like a
(13:02):
chiropractor would adjust.
Dr. Mark Moran (13:04):
Some do, but not many.
Dr. Kevin Barton (13:07):
So that's probably the main difference.
Number two I would say in termsof what I like to do is I think
every physician and everypractitioner has what they
really enjoy doing and seeing.
I'd like to see the spinepatients.
I don't really want to see ashoulder patient.
I don't want to deal with anankle problem.
I just have my preferences.
(13:27):
So I want to see a herniateddisc patient or this kind of
patient or that kind of patientand I'm very good at the spine.
I let all the physicaltherapists like, if I have a
what I would consider a PT issue, like probably rehabbing a
shoulder or certainly apost-surgical problem, I'm going
to refer that to a physicaltherapist.
I'm going to let them do whatthey do well, and then hopefully
you know we don't get a lot ofreferrals from PT, but we send
(13:50):
out a lot of referrals to PT.
Dr. Mark Moran (13:51):
But what you said I think is very important
is you know what you can do.
Well, you know what yourboundaries are and then, when
you start operating outsidethose boundaries, you say you
know what, I need some help, solet me send you to someone who's
better A hundred percent.
That's better for the patient.
You know what that makes sense.
Dr. Kevin Barton (14:06):
Well, that's good.
That's good.
That seems like it makes sense.
Dr. Mark Moran (14:09):
I always like to go back to.
Dr. Kevin Barton (14:11):
Let's do what's right for the patient.
It's pretty simple.
Yes.
Dr. Mark Moran (14:15):
I agree with that Absolutely.
Work inside your wheel well,know what you do, do it well.
Take care of the patients first.
If you can't do it, there'snothing wrong, say you know what
?
Let me send you someone who'sgoing to do a better job.
Absolutely.
I do that all the time.
100% Appreciate that, okay.
So I cannot wait to hear aboutscrambled eggs.
Dr. Kevin Barton (14:34):
I'm pretty good, cook gets come, oh really.
Dr. Mark Moran (14:35):
Yeah, it's something like that.
Dr. Kevin Barton (14:45):
I can't remember what it was, but I know
something scrambler therapy,scrambler therapy, yeah.
So what I in in my career, Ithink we've always tried to find
, like our organization, we'vealways tried to find the really
neat treatments that, or really,yeah, really neat treatments
that, um, we don't feel like arewell treated in the medical
profession in general, and oneof those things is like
peripheral neuropathy.
I mean how hard like how hardis it to treat peripheral
(15:08):
neuropathy?
Dr. Mark Moran (15:09):
It's very hard.
Dr. Kevin Barton (15:09):
It's very hard .
Dr. Mark Moran (15:10):
It's very hard, it's a very common problem.
Especially in San Antonio.
Dr. Kevin Barton (15:14):
Especially in San Antonio, because one of the
biggest causes for peripheralneuropathy is diabetic
neuropathy.
Uncontrolled diabetes leads tonerve damage.
Dr. Mark Moran (15:22):
And there's a couple of people with diabetes
in San Antonio, one or two Ithink, maybe, maybe.
Dr. Kevin Barton (15:26):
And so you know, traditionally speaking, we
have some medications thatUsually it's medicines can work
pretty well.
But when they don't, what areour options?
So, from your perspective, howdo you treat?
Dr. Mark Moran (15:39):
peripheral neuropathy.
Usually it's medicines.
Because, it's peripheralproblem, it's vascular.
There's not a the blood vesselsso usually it's medicines for
peripheral neuropathy.
Dr. Kevin Barton (15:51):
Yeah, and so people will try things, some
physical therapy type approaches.
They'll try some home remedies.
There can be some nutritionalaspects, you know.
So obviously we want to treatthe underlying problem that's
causing the neuropathy.
But once those things have beentreated, you know,
unfortunately once the damagehas been done, you're not
typically going to reverse thosechanges, and so what scrambler
(16:12):
therapy does is it's actuallytreating the neural pathway to
the brain.
So we are literally retrainingthe brain to understand that
this machine generates thissignal.
It's, it's quite complex.
There is there's 16 algorithmsthat runs through this code.
That so it's basically.
This is an electro analgesicdevice.
(16:34):
So think about this like a.
Dr. Mark Moran (16:35):
TENS unit.
Dr. Kevin Barton (16:36):
So the analogy that our trainer, the guy that
came in and trained us on thisthing, he said you know, it's
kind of the difference between aVolkswagen bug and a Tesla.
Okay, yeah.
So you know, Teslas have anamazing ability to drive
themselves and they do all thisadvanced stuff.
Are they the same thing?
I mean sort of, but I meanobviously one's way more
advanced than the other.
So this machine generates asynthetic signal to replace the
(17:08):
existing painful signal.
So it's replacing the previouspainful signal with a no pain
signal.
Dr. Mark Moran (17:16):
It's scrambling the pain signal.
Dr. Kevin Barton (17:18):
Literally scrambling the pain signal with
a no pain signal.
It's sending this new messageto the brain and how the brain
works over time it retrains thepathways to the brain and the
neuroplasticity improves withtime.
So this is sort of like.
The analogy we give is how doyou learn a foreign language?
So it starts out with a fewwords, which turns into a few
(17:39):
sentences, which turns into somephrases, and the more you do it
, the more you learn and thefaster your brain learns it and
figures it out.
So same principle withneuroplasticity of learning a
new pathway, and so eventuallywe want the brain to recognize
this no pain signal as thenormal signal.
And so where, with a TENS unit,you're always placing the pads
on the painful part of the bodywhere the scrambler therapy,
(18:02):
we're actually placing this ongood neurons.
We're actually placing thistypically proximal or in front
of where all the damage to thenerves are so like on the thighs
?
yeah, so if had.
Usually it's about two fingerwidths from the problem area.
So if they had peripheralneuropathy in their feet, we'd
actually place the pads abouttwo finger widths away from the
(18:23):
problem.
Dr. Mark Moran (18:23):
So like ankle, yeah, really close to the
problem.
Dr. Kevin Barton (18:25):
But where the problem?
Where the neurons are stillgood, where the nerves are still
sending a proper, good signal.
So then we start overridingthat signal to the brain.
And this is how we treatperipheral neuropathy.
So over time.
So this was invented in Rome bya guy named Giuseppe Marineo.
(18:46):
And he invented the scramblertherapy like 20 years ago, but
it was FDA approved in 2009 inthe States.
So he sent some machines to theStates to so they could study
it.
So, uh, most of the studieshave come out of Johns Hopkins
university.
It got him Dr Smith there.
He's in the pain department.
He's a anesthesia pain guy justlike you, so they use this
(19:06):
extensively to treat all kindsof neuropathic pain.
So we are just sort of gettingout the peripheral neuropathy
word but to CRPS, phantom limbpain.
Dr. Mark Moran (19:17):
Yeah, crps, any neuropathic pain, any
neuropathic pain literally anyneuropathic pain.
Dr. Kevin Barton (19:21):
So we saw some amazing results on some
patients just this week.
So this is our first week ofthe machine, so we're just kind
of getting started with it.
But so one of the very firstpatient peripheral neuropathy
patient, diabetic neuropathyfeels like he has sponges on the
bottom of his feet the typicalyeah, numbness, right, His
(19:42):
burning pain's about an eight atnight, and so when he came into
the office he complained of apain score of about a six.
Well, obviously, with thenumbness and the spongy it never
changes.
He has very difficult time withbalance due to proprioceptive
loss, so he has a hard time justwalking.
So we watch with the cane.
Dr. Mark Moran (19:59):
So he has a sensation in his feet like
proprioception.
I'm just saying yes, exactly.
So he doesn't feel where hisfeet are, so he gets a lot of
goosebumps, exactly.
Dr. Kevin Barton (20:06):
So we hook him up to the scrambler therapy, we
start treating them and theamazing thing about this
treatment is patients seeimmediate results.
So patients that have been inpain, so this guy's been in pain
since 2015.
And for the first time in nineyears, this guy is pain free.
Dr. Mark Moran (20:26):
After one treatment, during the treatment
and after, but I'll explain howthat works.
Dr. Kevin Barton (20:31):
So the whole goal with each treatment is to
zero the patient's pain.
Dr. Mark Moran (20:35):
Okay.
Dr. Kevin Barton (20:35):
Like you, literally zero it out.
So you scramble the bad signals, scramble the bad signals,
override the synthetic newsignal, send that to the brain,
brain starts picking up the newsignal as the normal signal and
the patient's pain literallymelts away in just minutes.
So then they're zero pain andhe's like you know what?
I can feel my feet, I canliterally feel.
(20:56):
So the first time in nine yearsI literally feel like I have
normal feet, like I can feel theground.
So he has his shoes off and hissocks off, so he can literally
feel the floor.
So after the treatment we takeeverything off, he stands up and
he starts walking without hiscane.
And I had to, I had to, like,hold him as he stood up.
(21:17):
I'm sure he was nervous, yeah,and so during the treatment,
before it's it really startedhelping him.
He was his, his balance wasterrible.
As soon as the treatment wasover, he stood up, he started
walking and wasn't even usinghis cane, that's right, it was
unbelievable.
Dr. Mark Moran (21:32):
I've never seen anything like it.
Dr. Kevin Barton (21:33):
And then we saw another lady that was an
amputee that had phantom limbpain and just terrible pain.
Again, zero pain.
Dr. Mark Moran (21:40):
And how long is it on?
Dr. Kevin Barton (21:41):
Yeah, so the first guy got relief for four
hours, zero pain for four hours,and when his pain did come back
, it was less, it was about 20to 30% less than it was.
Dr. Mark Moran (21:54):
So he came in and he was better today,
trending in the right direction.
Dr. Kevin Barton (21:56):
Same with the other girl, but she had a little
less timeframe that it feltbetter.
So maybe, um, I think it wasmaybe 45 minutes to an hour,
okay.
And then she comes back intoday and she was.
I mean you, you know, you seepeople in pain every day.
You know it's like you couldtell she was hurting.
I mean she rated her pain scalea 9 out of 10, and it was
visible in her face Like youcould tell it wasn't a good day.
Dr. Mark Moran (22:18):
I'm sure it was worse than normal because she
had this relief, yeah, and sheforgot how bad it hurt.
Yeah, exactly so then when thatrebound pain comes back, it's
much worse.
It can be worse, totally getthat.
Dr. Kevin Barton (22:27):
Yes, so she sits down and within three
minutes of her being on themachine, we zero her back out
and then she feels amazing andshe leaves smiling and happy.
Dr. Mark Moran (22:37):
So what the?
Dr. Kevin Barton (22:38):
expectation is is that each time we do the
therapy, we get a little longerpain relief and eventually we're
going to break through to wherewe get more than 24 hours of
relief, and then days of relief,and then months, years or
longer, and so some patientswill go through maybe three to
five sessions and that's it andthat's all they need.
Or some patients might gothrough 10.
Most patients are going to gothrough 10 or less treatments.
(23:01):
It's incredible.
I've never seen anything likeit.
Dr. Mark Moran (23:03):
I mean it?
Dr. Kevin Barton (23:04):
was literally almost miraculous.
Dr. Mark Moran (23:05):
You're scrambling my mind just thinking
about it.
I don't even know how todescribe it.
Dr. Kevin Barton (23:13):
I mean, I think it's a pretty fitting name
.
So I'm getting to go to, uh,rome, at the university of rome,
oh, in january I'm sorry it'sterrible.
I mean I look for any excuse tolike travel and do fun stuff,
but uh get to go meet giuseppemarineo the inventor and train
with him in the hospital, uh,and literally like treat
patients with him yeah so it'sgoing to be a fantastic week so
then we'll have to have you backon.
Yes.
Dr. Mark Moran (23:34):
And all of our viewers can see how the training
goes.
Dr. Kevin Barton (23:37):
Yes, the training's progressing.
That's great.
Dr. Mark Moran (23:38):
I had a similar patient with CRPS, which is a
bad nerve problem.
People know it's a horriblenerve problem in her arms and we
did a spinal cord stimulator.
And the point is when she cameback and she had the trial she
literally ran and jumped in myarms and almost knocked me over
because she said I have my lifeback.
Dr. Kevin Barton (23:57):
Yes.
Dr. Mark Moran (23:58):
It seems like very similar to what you're
telling me Exactly yeah,incredible, and what else could
you want as a doctor?
Dr. Kevin Barton (24:03):
I mean, that's why we're here, to help people.
Yeah, it's the most Absolutely.
Dr. Mark Moran (24:09):
Especially to that significance of nine years
of having spongy feet and painand everything.
It's all the things they don'ttell you.
But you know, comes with it,the sleeping there their energy
goes down.
They're feeling bad becausethey're not doing things with
their family or friends.
Dr. Kevin Barton (24:22):
I mean, this was the second girl I was
mentioning that had theamputation.
It was a crazy story.
So she was 30 years old.
Um, get first day on the job asa police officer, get shot with
an ak-47 oh really and it blewout so she had partial cauda
coena syndrome thanks to all thepolicemen out there and firemen
yes, first responders.
Dr. Mark Moran (24:42):
Thank you so much this told me story no one
would ever know.
Does he literally yeah?
Dr. Kevin Barton (24:46):
just terrible, terrible situation.
And, uh, she's lived with painever since 16 years.
Dr. Mark Moran (24:50):
She's been been miserable.
Dr. Kevin Barton (24:51):
How old is she ?
Yeah, oh, young, she's like 46.
Yeah, yeah, you know, youngerthan us.
Dr. Mark Moran (25:01):
Can we delete that part out?
So thank you for doing that.
That's great that she can.
She can have that back andthese guys with their peripheral
neuropathy are feeling better.
That's awesome.
Dr. Kevin Barton (25:11):
It's fun.
That's very good.
I love doing stuff that is justlife-changing for patients.
Dr. Mark Moran (25:17):
Yeah, absolutely , and it's good that you're on
the breaking edge and trendingup and trying to learn new stuff
.
Dr. Kevin Barton (25:21):
I think that's great, very good.
Dr. Mark Moran (25:23):
I should have known you were going to tell me
something crazy like that Alwaysbuilding, pushing boundaries.
Dr. Kevin Barton (25:27):
Always.
Dr. Mark Moran (25:28):
That's good.
Yeah, that's why you're sosuccessful.
Maybe I should take lessonsfrom you.
Cool, what else?
Do you have any other storiesto tell me?
Dr. Kevin Barton (25:37):
Well shoot.
What do you want to learn about?
Well, first we have to have aword from our sponsors.
Dr. Mark Moran (25:44):
Okay, let's do it and we're back.
Okay, go ahead and tell us thisother story.
Dr. Kevin Barton (25:50):
You want to talk about something medical,
something interesting.
Dr. Mark Moran (25:53):
Whatever, something we can teach the
viewers, okay, the viewer.
Dr. Kevin Barton (25:57):
So another really fascinating thing we're
doing, and I don't think a lotof people I mean.
How much interaction did youget with interventional
radiology when you were inmedical school?
Dr. Mark Moran (26:06):
No none.
Dr. Kevin Barton (26:06):
Or in residency.
Very little, very little,probably any.
So when we talk about theseinterventional radiology
procedures, most doctors evenyou know high level physicians
like I would consider.
Obviously you're a specialist,so you typically know more than
you know, some doctors for sureand um, they just it's like
you're looking through somebodyand they just don't even
(26:29):
understand and don't even get it.
So there are some newmusculoskeletal, vascular
procedures to treat.
We're going to talk about a bigfancy word here called
angiogenesis.
Dr. Mark Moran (26:40):
So, angiogenesis .
Dr. Kevin Barton (26:41):
So for those of you who don't know and I've
never heard this, probably notmany, I didn't even really
understand this until I reallystarted studying it.
But basically what happens whensomeone is injured, our body
grows vessels, new blood vesselsto compensate for the injury,
to basically send in oxygen, tosend in blood, to get things to
(27:02):
start healing properly.
Dr. Mark Moran (27:03):
You need oxygen and blood to heal.
Dr. Kevin Barton (27:04):
Yes, I learned that in medical school.
Dr. Mark Moran (27:06):
Oh, thank God, you do need oxygen and blood to
heal.
Yes, and if you?
Dr. Kevin Barton (27:10):
don't have that.
Obviously things heal a lotslower.
So it's our body's naturaldefense mechanism.
Dr. Mark Moran (27:15):
So it's like sending out an SOS.
It's why discs have a hard timehealing.
Dr. Kevin Barton (27:18):
Yeah, no blood supply.
Dr. Mark Moran (27:19):
There's not a lot of blood supply, yeah.
Dr. Kevin Barton (27:20):
So spinal discs are avascular Right and
then when they get hurt it justtends to get worse from there.
Dr. Mark Moran (27:25):
There's not.
Dr. Kevin Barton (27:27):
Exactly so.
The same, the same goes witharthritis.
So cartilage has very poor, ifany, blood supply, so it's
almost an avascular structurelike the disc.
And so when we injure thecartilage, especially at a young
age, like maybe an ACL tear ora meniscus injury, it's sort of
downhill from there.
But patients may not experiencesymptoms for a long time.
But these angiogenic bloodvessels are developing, the new
(27:50):
blood vessels, yeah, and sothey're new and they're somewhat
abnormal to a degree becauselittle tiny nerve endings get in
there as well.
So this is calledneovascularization.
So there's a nerve ending withall these new blood vessels and
the problem is a lot of theseblood vessels are new, they're
immature blood vessels and theyleak fluid into the joint.
So it causes an inflammatoryresponse and then it triggers
(28:11):
cytokines and this starts avicious cycle of inflammation
and pain and inflammation.
So when we start out early inthe disease process, when we
have mild arthritis, things tendto work okay, like ibuprofen,
motrin, aleve, but it's able tooverpower the effects of the
angiogenesis because theinflammation is sort of mild.
(28:32):
Sure, then we progress to okay,that doesn't work anymore.
So the next thing would be maybesteroid injection.
Steroid injection is a littlestronger than the previous stuff
.
So that tends to work okay fora while.
But then what do you do after?
You have knee injections forarthritis and then nothing else
works.
There's always been this gap inthe paradigm between what do
you do after knee injections.
(28:53):
You typically have knee surgery, and it's a big step for a
patient, especially if they'reyounger, like maybe 50 or maybe
60.
And they're like I'm just notquite ready for a knee
replacement.
So there's never been a stopgapin between until now.
And so now what we do is weattack that source of
inflammation by going in andtreating those angiogenic blood
vessels.
And it's really simple we justgo in through a femoral approach
(29:16):
, go in through the blood vesseltrack a little tiny micro
catheter under x-ray guidance.
We have a vascular package onour C-arm.
And so we see all this underx-ray guidance.
Inject a little contrast.
There's eight blood vesselsthat supply the knee joint.
They're called the geniculararteries, so the procedure is
(29:37):
called a genicular arteryembolization.
So what we're doing is we'reblocking the blood flow just to
the angiogenic blood vessels,not to the main arteries.
Dr. Mark Moran (29:42):
So we want to leave the main arteries to the
people, so to the new bloodvessels that are there from the
injury, that's right.
Dr. Kevin Barton (29:46):
So the ones that are responsible for the
inflammation and pain.
So we take care of those.
We knock those out by injectingthese little tiny.
We call them like particles ofsand.
They're actually made of likegelatin, the little flexible,
tiny balls.
Dr. Mark Moran (29:59):
They're not.
Dr. Kevin Barton (30:00):
They're not microscopic, but it basically
clots off the artery.
So as we stop blood flow tothat, all those vessels and
those nerve endings that arecausing a hypersensitivity of
pain and causing your painthreshold to go down, making
things that wouldn't normally bepainful painful, we knock all
that out and patients get betterfast.
So they'll get better inusually about three to five days
(30:22):
and start seeing big signs ofimprovement, and they may get
years of relief.
Dr. Mark Moran (30:27):
Yeah, that's great.
Dr. Kevin Barton (30:28):
Years plural.
I mean it's unbelievable from a30,.
It takes us anywhere from 30minutes to an hour to perform
the procedure.
It's unbelievable, I mean it'salmost as cool as the scrambler
therapy.
Dr. Mark Moran (30:39):
I like the scrambler therapy.
Dr. Kevin Barton (30:40):
I like the scrambler therapy, yeah, and is
that covered by insurance?
So the vascular procedure, yes,covered by most insurances, the
scrambler therapy,unfortunately not governor
insurance cash procedures, butstill amazing.
Dr. Mark Moran (30:52):
Yeah, still new, yeah, still new.
Okay, well, you're definitelycooler than me.
Dr. Kevin Barton (30:56):
I mean yeah.
Dr. Mark Moran (30:57):
I noticed you didn't say no, always have been,
haven't I?
No, no, I'm not.
That's what I'm expecting.
You didn't say anything.
That's okay, very good.
Anything else you want to tellus or teach us our viewers?
Dr. Kevin Barton (31:10):
You know, I mean I love what you're doing.
I think it's amazing thatyou're spending time to educate
patients.
I think one of the hardestthings in medicine today is, you
know, back to those insurancefolks.
You know a lot of people thinkdoctors make a ton of money and
I mean there probably are somephysicians out there who do well
, but reimbursements areactually quite low for what we
(31:33):
do.
I think and the risk that youtake.
I mean you're putting a needleinto someone's spine, I mean a
millimeter sometimes fromsomebody's spinal cord.
That could be very precariousif you didn't know what you're
doing, obviously.
And you do this for, like on amedicare patient, like less than
200, and it takes like 15minutes to do it, which doesn't
(31:54):
sound like that takes long, butit takes like time to turn the
room over and get anotherpatient.
So I mean it's a lot less thanwhat people think, a lot less, a
lot less.
So, unfortunately, what I'mgetting at and the point is is
that insurances don't pay uswell enough to spend time
educating patients.
I mean, I think you, I thinkour office does a fantastic job
(32:18):
educating patients.
We'll spend the time withpatients, but I just don't hear
it from our patients when theysee other doctors.
Sometimes it's like oh, he justtold me I needed this surgery
or that surgery and didn'texplain anything and walked out
of the room and said Mary,you'll schedule the other run.
And it's like it leaves patientsnot understanding what their
condition is.
I mean, I can't tell you howmany patients I've seen for knee
(32:47):
arthritis that didn'tunderstand that knee arthritis
was just simply you were losingsome cartilage in the joint.
They, it does no comprehension,but they nobody had ever taken
the time to explain it or whatall the options were, how
important weight loss is for thespine or for the knee joint.
You know they say for every 10pounds you're overweight is 40
extra pounds on the knee, soit's a huge deal to just lose
(33:09):
some weight.
So if you're 100 poundsoverweight, you have 400 extra
pounds on your knee.
I'm sure there's a similarstatistic for the spine, for the
lower back.
So if you're, overweight andyou're putting all that
additional pressure on your disc.
I promise the discs are wearingout faster than they should,
absolutely without a doubt, andthey're well.
I guess there is such a thingas a disc replacement sort of in
the low back I think it worksbetter in the neck, but less
(33:31):
weight.
Dr. Mark Moran (33:31):
Yeah, yeah, so yeah, but you're right that the
problem is that medicine isbecoming much more of a business
than it is the art to helpingpeople.
Because of the nature of thebusiness, you have have to
generate money, because expensesare going up and people want to
be seen.
Did you get a?
Dr. Kevin Barton (33:45):
raise when inflation went up.
Dr. Mark Moran (33:48):
Did.
Dr. Kevin Barton (33:48):
Medicare call you and say Dr Moran, we feel so
sorry for you, we should giveyou a raise, because I think
everybody got a raise butphysicians.
And it goes down and down anddown.
I've never seen an increase inreimbursement in 21 years.
Dr. Mark Moran (34:03):
I've never.
Seen it, never.
And the problem is we don't getpaid to educate patients.
Dr. Kevin Barton (34:08):
We don't.
There's not a code for that,which is probably one of the
most important things.
Dr. Mark Moran (34:12):
It is the most important thing.
Dr. Kevin Barton (34:13):
I mean one of the guidelines in the American
Academy of Orthopedic Surgeryrecently talked about how
important educating a patient onarthritis was, and it was
literally one of the keycomponents and one of the most
effective things you can do forarthritis.
But I guarantee you that's notbeing done very well.
Dr. Mark Moran (34:30):
Which brings me to my point of my online course.
So I have an online course.
I don't know if you know aboutthat.
Dr. Kevin Barton (34:36):
No, I did see the text where you sent out a
huge text thread to a lot ofpeople.
Dr. Mark Moran (34:41):
And you were announcing.
You're the only person I sentit to.
Dr. Kevin Barton (34:46):
I was the lone one.
No, I did see that you weremaking a push to do something
really cool and innovative, andI've never seen a doctor do this
, so congratulations.
Dr. Mark Moran (34:56):
That's amazing.
That's part of the problem.
So did you know?
I got my MBA.
What, what.
Dr. Kevin Barton (35:01):
What I can't say.
I'm surprised.
Dr. Mark Moran (35:03):
I got my MBA last year and my graduating
project was come up with abusiness.
Dr. Kevin Barton (35:07):
Nice so.
Dr. Mark Moran (35:08):
I decided to come up with an online course,
because right now I see patientsone at a time, but on an online
course I can see patientsmultiple at a time 24-7.
Dr. Kevin Barton (35:16):
Yes.
Dr. Mark Moran (35:17):
So I came up with the world's biggest cause
of disability, which is low backpain.
Dr. Kevin Barton (35:22):
Low back pain Shocker.
Dr. Mark Moran (35:23):
So I went after that and I came up with this
video course.
It's called One Month MD.
I can teach you everything youneed to know about treating and
causes and prevention of lowback pain in one month.
Dr. Kevin Barton (35:33):
Nice, so it's One.
Dr. Mark Moran (35:34):
Month MD and we're doing low back pain causes
.
So it's 10 minutes a day forabout four weeks and I give you
Fridays off.
Dr. Kevin Barton (35:43):
Well, that's awfully nice.
Dr. Mark Moran (35:49):
And what I'm trying to do is I'm trying to
build a habit for patients totake 10 minutes.
While you're having coffee,you're relaxing, watch the
videos and you can learn aboutthe causes and treatments of low
back pain, so you can be anactive participant in your
health instead of a passiverecipient.
And then you're halfway todeveloping a habit to using that
10 minutes instead of watchingvideos.
It's a genius, go do yoga, Ilove it.
Try to do some exercises.
Dr. Kevin Barton (36:08):
You know, I will tell.
Speaking of yoga, I will tellyou.
I tell patients all the time,if people would just do yoga, I
mean it would put chiropractorsout of business.
I swear to you Like I'm a hugeproponent of yoga.
So if you've never tried yoga,go try it.
It's amazing.
You know what?
If you really get into thehabit of it, it's awesome.
Dr. Mark Moran (36:27):
How many doctors in a small room doing a podcast
will agree yoga is important?
Dr. Kevin Barton (36:31):
Well, two, two out of two.
Dr. Mark Moran (36:33):
Because I love yoga.
I do yoga all the time.
It's incredible.
I did one this morning.
It was actually really hardthis morning and I totally agree
with you.
I think that after 40.
I think I did yoga with yourbrother one time.
Do you remember that?
I do remember that.
Yeah, that's another story foranother time, but I do think
it's very important.
I think anyone over 40, just tomobilize the joints and get
(36:55):
stretching and range of motionyoga is one of the easiest and
best things you can do yoga isone of the easiest and best
things you can do.
Dr. Kevin Barton (37:03):
It will melt spinal pain away.
I mean, there may still be someunderlying issues there
sometimes that still need to betreated, but I'll tell you, for
the most part it would greatlyimprove well, function,
flexibility, I mean a lot ofthings, and then the things that
you do, and potentially thethings that I do, would work
better and last longer and theywould need us less so we need to
have a yoga, a yogi.
Dr. Mark Moran (37:22):
We need to have a yogi on the podcast.
Attention, all you yogis outthere.
If you want to come on, let meknow, or maybe I can invite some
of my friends that do yoga.
Dr. Kevin Barton (37:31):
Yeah, absolutely, that's a great idea.
Dr. Mark Moran (37:33):
I'm actually having a personal trainer on
that does yoga, so maybe he canteach me some new stuff.
Dr. Kevin Barton (37:43):
There you go, but, yes, totally agree, yoga is
the key.
So tell me, tell me about thecourse.
Is this something you're going?
Dr. Mark Moran (37:45):
to test people on Well a lot of times.
I just encourage patients to godo it or see what they do so
they can get the benefits Now doyou know how much they
participate in it?
Yeah, we can track them, oh, wecan track them, and at the end
they get a little certificateand we're going after everyone.
It's not just patients, it'semployers, because patients with
back pains.
Healthcare expenses are 60%higher with back pain than
(38:06):
without.
Any employer in the countrywill have 15% of their workforce
.
Lose 10 work days a year fromlow back pain.
Oh, I believe it so think aboutthe revenues on that.
I just did a talk for a bigschool district.
They have 20,000 employees.
So every year they have 3,000employees that lose 10 days a
year from low back pain.
So that's 30,000 work days ayear.
Dr. Kevin Barton (38:28):
Holy smokes, that is unbelievable, and that's
, I mean, the burden that is onthe system is tremendous.
Dr. Mark Moran (38:36):
And talk about that is.
You know we do all these things.
I'm kind of getting off on thisLost productivity For taking
care of the students.
But fundamentally, to take careof the students, you have to
take care of the teachers.
So they say why would you focuson investing in all the
students' well-being and health,and education and strategies to
train them to be a betterteacher?
You have to take care ofyourself, right?
(38:57):
And the example I give is whenyou get on an airplane.
What does the stewardess say?
First, put the oxygen onyourself, yes, so you can help
others.
Dr. Kevin Barton (39:04):
Isn't that the truth?
Dr. Mark Moran (39:06):
You're taking care of yourself so you can help
others.
I'm taking care of myself so Ican help others.
Teachers need to take care ofthemselves so they can help
others.
Dr. Kevin Barton (39:13):
Well, and you've seen what fantastic guy's
in you know, so it it means alot when you go to a physician
who does take care of themselvesI try, I like to practice what
I preach.
Dr. Mark Moran (39:23):
That's right.
Yeah, that's awesome, you dotoo, yes, very good 100 very
good.
So is there anything else weneed to share publicly or we can
share publicly?
Or do you have a funny storyyou want to tell me?
Are we just going to say enoughis enough I know you have a
funny story.
Dr. Kevin Barton (39:38):
Funny story.
Funny story Nothing's coming tomind.
Well, it's almost the holidays,yeah, Leaving tomorrow.
Family trip Nice, Portugal andMorocco Nice, so super fun.
So my son mentioned flyingearlier.
My 17-year-old is applying tothe Air Force Academy Awesome.
So on December 1st he appliesfor summer camp and if he gets
(40:02):
into summer camp it's reallygood.
But I mean he's doing amazingSuper cool, super fun.
Dr. Mark Moran (40:06):
That'd be awesome.
That's a great school.
Yes, I've been there.
Have you been there?
Dr. Kevin Barton (40:09):
Yes, it's incredible.
Dr. Mark Moran (40:14):
We went in March for a tour, very good.
So, kevin, thank you so muchfor coming on.
I appreciate it you taught me alot of good stuff, so teach me
good stuff.
I'm always interested inlearning new stuff, so you
taught me lots of good stuff andI appreciate that.
I'm sure our viewer reallyappreciated it Our one viewer.
Hopefully it's more than one.
Dr. Kevin Barton (40:34):
We're trying to help out, that's right.
We're trying to do our job.
Dr. Mark Moran (40:37):
Tell your friends to do our job.
So tell your friends.
Tell your friends, right, yes,go see Dr Kevin Barton and Texas
spine clinic.
Is that your name?
Oh, yes, that's right.
Yep, yes, that's right, that ismy name.
Dr. Kevin Barton (40:46):
Yes, texas spine clinic, and then we have
our sister business, all in thesame building as arthritis
relief and vascular centers.
So with that business we focusmostly on knee arthritis and
then joint pain in general wedon't do a lot of spinal stuff
over there.
And then, uh, the new vascularstuff that we talked about.
We do uterine fibroids as well,and we do men with large
(41:08):
prostates.
Know anybody with a largeprostate?
I'm sure I do.
Statistically they say anyone.
So men over the age of 50 50%.
So not me, no, no.
Next year, next year so men overthe age of 50, between 50 and
60, 50% will have an enlargedprostate, and then so we'll talk
(41:31):
about this on another podcast.
Dr. Mark Moran (41:32):
But it's just really cool stuff.
So you're going to come back.
Dr. Kevin Barton (41:35):
Well, maybe, if you invite me back, yeah.
Dr. Mark Moran (41:37):
You're always you know what I'm going to give
you a lifetime membership to thepodcast.
All right, bring some tools,bring some games, we'll have
some fun hey whenever you'reready to have me back.
Dr. Kevin Barton (41:46):
I have a lot of other really cool stuff to
talk about, so our whole mantrais is we're trying to prevent
trying to give people betteroptions than surgery with less
recovery time less risk and getthem back to feeling good and
back to work in very shortamount of time.
Dr. Mark Moran (42:03):
That's great, yeah, weak or less.
Surgery is great when you needsurgery, when you need it, when
you need it, surgery is great.
Dr. Kevin Barton (42:09):
But it goes back to that conservative
approach and starting out withthe things that make sense first
and then leaving surgery as alast resort.
Dr. Mark Moran (42:16):
I think that's very logical.
Dr. Kevin Barton (42:18):
Unless it's an emergency.
Dr. Mark Moran (42:19):
Unless it's an emergency, there's reasons to do
anything.
There is yeah, very good.
So thank you so much, Thanksfor having me.
Dr. Kevin Barton (42:24):
Thanks for having me, Dr.
Dr. Mark Moran (42:25):
Moran.
Thank you guys, and if any ofyou guys have suggestions or
want to come on and teach meabout something or talk to your
community, please let me know we.
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