June 4, 2025 • 32 mins
Back to the Future: The Podcast
Produced and Hosted by Brad Gilmore
July 3rd, 1985 — the day a little time travel movie produced by Steven Spielberg and directed by Robert Zemeckis changed cinema forever. Back to the Future hit theaters and instantly became a cultural phenomenon. This podcast dives deep into the world of Back to the Future — exploring the trilogy’s unforgettable characters, iconic moments, hidden details, and behind-the-scenes stories that helped make it one of the greatest film franchises of all time. So buckle in, make sure your flux capacitor is... fluxing, and enjoy the 88 mile-per-hour adventure through time.
🎉 Order the new expanded edition of Brad Gilmore’s book — Why We Love Back to the Future
Back to the Future: The Podcast is independently produced and presented by Brad Gilmore. This program is not affiliated with the Back to the Future franchise and is intended solely for entertainment and documentary purposes. All views expressed are those of the host and guests and do not reflect the opinions of any other entity or sponsor. This show respects the intellectual property rights of Universal Pictures and all creators of Back to the Future.
Produced and Hosted by Brad Gilmore
July 3rd, 1985 — the day a little time travel movie produced by Steven Spielberg and directed by Robert Zemeckis changed cinema forever. Back to the Future hit theaters and instantly became a cultural phenomenon. This podcast dives deep into the world of Back to the Future — exploring the trilogy’s unforgettable characters, iconic moments, hidden details, and behind-the-scenes stories that helped make it one of the greatest film franchises of all time. So buckle in, make sure your flux capacitor is... fluxing, and enjoy the 88 mile-per-hour adventure through time.
🎉 Order the new expanded edition of Brad Gilmore’s book — Why We Love Back to the Future
Back to the Future: The Podcast is independently produced and presented by Brad Gilmore. This program is not affiliated with the Back to the Future franchise and is intended solely for entertainment and documentary purposes. All views expressed are those of the host and guests and do not reflect the opinions of any other entity or sponsor. This show respects the intellectual property rights of Universal Pictures and all creators of Back to the Future.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Hi, everybody, This is Bob Gail co creator Back to the Future,
and you're listening to Brad Gilmore.
Speaker 2 (00:04):
Stop stop, Okaya stock, it's me, great Martin.
Speaker 1 (00:10):
You can't be such a bat to the future.
Speaker 3 (00:12):
Oh.
Speaker 1 (00:13):
I know he did send me back to the future.
Speaker 3 (00:14):
But I'm back. I'm back from the future.
Speaker 2 (00:21):
Wait a minute, Wait, gosh, f are.
Speaker 4 (00:27):
You telling me that you built the time machine.
Speaker 1 (00:32):
The way I see it?
Speaker 2 (00:33):
If you're gonna build a time machine, why not doing
some style?
Speaker 1 (00:37):
Well, dog Mack retards to theaters.
Speaker 4 (00:39):
After twenty five years of greatness and people like me
enjoying this movie on DVD, we can go, you know,
the big screen again and the man himself, the man
behind the movie, the ride of the director of the
Everything for the view ascutivorse.
Speaker 1 (00:52):
Mister Kevin Smith joins us this morning. Kevin, how are you, sir?
Speaker 3 (00:55):
Good morning, so damn good.
Speaker 2 (00:57):
Cannot believe I've lived long enough to see I'm going
to reviach milestone a quarter century milestone.
Speaker 3 (01:03):
Nuts.
Speaker 4 (01:04):
Y know this movie and I mean this honestly, I've
seen all your films.
Speaker 1 (01:08):
This is my favorite of your movies. It's always been
my favorite.
Speaker 4 (01:12):
I remember having to scour the Internet to find a
DVD copy of it at one point because it was
hard to get. Now this movie's back, It's going to
be in theaters. People can finally see it again in
the big screen. This has to be just such a
rewarding time for you right now.
Speaker 2 (01:27):
It's nuts, man, Like. The movie's been out of commission
for quite some time. It was made by mir Max,
which was owned by Disney back in the day. And
at one point Disney was like, get rid of this movie,
and so I got to say the name out louds
to brace yourselves. Harvey Weinstein personally owned the movie for
the last ever since nineteen ninety nine, so roughly the
(01:49):
last twenty five years, and for the tenth anniversary of
the fifteenth twentieth I couldn't get the movie out from
under them and stuff. You know, he had some legal problems.
So fairly recently, Alessandra Williams, who is our savior, the
Guardian Angel at Dogma, she bought the movie away from him,
(02:11):
and she approached me and be like, hey, man, what
would you like to do with it? And I was like,
you know, I would tour it like I toured Clerk's
three and Jane salimbob reboot and stuff like that, and
she goes, would you just put it in the theaters? Normally,
I don't think anyone's interested in that sort of thing.
And yet on June fifth, on Thursday, we can come
out on like fifteen hundred screens. So we went to
(02:31):
Can with the movie that was Nuts. Just got back
last Sunday for the second time. We went in nineteen
ninety nine with Dogma. Then we went back this year
for the Can Classics section. So I went from like
fifteen twenty years of no Dogma to nothing but Dogma.
For the last month. You know, I was on tour
(02:52):
twenty cities across the US.
Speaker 3 (02:54):
Every night. We did like two shows a Q and
AS after.
Speaker 2 (02:57):
So've I've been steeped in Dogma and I'm delighted to
watch it play at this stage in the game because
it reminds me of the kid who made the movie.
The kid who made that movie, wrote it and directed it,
believed in everything that was on display up there, and
I don't have those same beliefs anymore.
Speaker 3 (03:15):
Now. I got good ideas, so to speak.
Speaker 2 (03:18):
But every night I get to watch that flick and
revisit the kid for whom his Catholicism, his childhood Catholism
meant so much that he grew up and made a
movie about it.
Speaker 1 (03:28):
Well, I mean didn't isn't that where it started?
Speaker 4 (03:31):
Like when you were in film school you wrote a
script called God I Believe and you had the roof
of scene in there. That was kind of your entry
point and then it metamorphosized into what we saw initially.
But when did you think, Because like Clerks are obviously great,
mal Rats is amazing too. Malrats actually made me want
to write a screenplay and then you go into it.
Speaker 2 (03:51):
That's the highest compliment that you could give a filmmaker man,
is that their work made you want to do a thing.
Speaker 4 (03:55):
Well, what I love most about all your movies in Dogma,
and I'm going to ask you specifically about it certain scene,
but the dialogue is so great. Even Ben Affleck did
an interview I think with Vanity Fair where he talks
about there's a rhythm to Kevin Smith dialogue and you're
so about the written word that's in the script and
you can feel that and it translates. So my question
is when when you're making those first three movies, Clerk's,
(04:16):
Maul Rats and Chasing Amy and you have this God
script or there's dogma idea in the back of your head.
It to me, in some ways feels like a departure
from the smallness of the first three movies to now boom,
We're going all the way.
Speaker 1 (04:29):
We're bringing theology in here, We're.
Speaker 4 (04:30):
Bringing you know, Jesus God, We're you know, we're gonna
have a toilet Tarannosaurus pop out of nowhere, and and
and being.
Speaker 1 (04:38):
This movie feels big.
Speaker 4 (04:39):
Did you feel like since it was your fourth movie,
that was when the co you had the confidence to
do something this big.
Speaker 2 (04:45):
It wasn't so much the confidence at that point. I
was never going to have a better chance to realize
my juice. For lack of a better description, I was,
you know, clerks put us on the map in a big,
bad way. Mal rats hurt us because the movie tanged.
It became a cult classic, but when it came out,
it did not help one iota. So Chasing Amy was
(05:07):
like a hail Mary to stay in the business. And
it worked out, like you know, people critically liked it.
Speaker 3 (05:14):
It was doing.
Speaker 2 (05:16):
Good, strong business for a movie that costs two hundred
and fifty grand. It was making twelve million, So that helped. Suddenly,
like I was back and getting respected and whatnot, and
so when people were like what's next, I was able
to be like, Oh, we want to make this movie
beat Dogma that I've held on to for a bunch
of years. So also in the wake of Chasing Amy
(05:36):
was Good Wile Hunting, which went even further toward securing
a pretty decent budget for that movie.
Speaker 3 (05:43):
It was a ten million dollar movie.
Speaker 2 (05:44):
We probably could have used twenty, but we still like
made it work for like ten million bucks. And Ben
and Matt being in Good Will Hunting and having that
blow up like absolutely paved the runway in a big,
bad way. So it felt like now's the time, you know,
Like if I could have gotten away with it as
a second movie, I would have tried, but thankfully that
(06:04):
didn't happen because I wasn't ready. So after Chasing Amy,
it was like, look, there's gonna be no time like this.
And I was at a point in my career where
like it was a crossroads. I could have done a
bunch of different things. I was in this deal with
Universal to make a movie called Son of Fletch with
Chevy Chase and Jason Lee, and Joey Adams, and I
(06:27):
had to let that go because I wanted to make Dogma, though,
like you got this or Dogma?
Speaker 3 (06:31):
I was like Dogma. And then Lorenzo debon Ventura.
Speaker 2 (06:35):
Who was the producer like later on of those Transformers movies,
but back then he ran Warner Brothers. He invited me
to his house for a dinner, and after the dinner
he's like, you know, Warner Brothers, we have all these
properties that aren't Batman and Superman, all these comic book
characters that could be great movies, and nobody's working on.
(06:55):
He's like, would you like to run a division here
at Warner Brothers? All you do is go through all
the DC comic books that aren't Batman's Superman and figure
out stuff to make. So essentially he was like, would
you like to be Kevin Foggy before Kevin fi.
Speaker 3 (07:11):
But at DC?
Speaker 2 (07:12):
And I was so in love with Dogma and like,
oh my god, if I don't do it now, I'm
never gonna have a chance that. I was like, that's flattering,
but like, no, I want to do my thing. So
I was ready and it felt like I'm never going
to be in a better position than this and since
critically we're coming off of Chasing Amy, like that's how
(07:33):
we got Chris Rock, That's how we got Alan Rickman.
Those are two of the cast that sought us out
based on like Chasing Amy. So it was the heat
of the moment to quote Asia that really kind of
allowed a Dogma to bloom. Any other time it wouldn't happened. Man,
(07:54):
my friend Malcolm is always saying, like, it's interesting you
with the juice that you had. He's like, you really
could have done anything, and you chose to make a
religious movie with a bunch of famous people, and I
was like, I know, it.
Speaker 3 (08:07):
Just felt like the right thing to do.
Speaker 2 (08:08):
So now twenty five or technically twenty six years after
we made it, it's you know, I've never regretted my decision,
but it's been a lovely month of like, oh yeah,
like this is why I made Dogma, you know, and
not somebody else's thing. Like I would have enjoyed making
Son of Fletch, but at the end of the day,
that's somebody else's thing, you know. I would have enjoyed
(08:32):
running a division of the DC that made comic book
movies that I wasn't going to direct but I was
going to produce or something, but that wouldn't have been
as cool as my own thing. And so, you know,
always die on the cross of originality kids, like, there's
always somebody more talented than you to make the movie
that doesn't have your name on it. But only you
(08:53):
can make the movie with your name on the one
you dream about making. And thank god I did. Man,
it's aged and well and in a career. You know,
that's been going on for like thirty one years. The
long you stick around, the less they're like, yay, you know,
they're like, uh, clerk's nineteen, what the fuck? So it's
nice to have one in the pocket that people still
(09:14):
like well.
Speaker 4 (09:15):
And and one like you said, that still has a
message that I think that would resonate with people well,
you know, whether they're religious or not.
Speaker 1 (09:22):
I think that now.
Speaker 4 (09:23):
I mean I'm a religious person, but I think that
if you have your religion, if you're not okay with
having your religion questioned or your ideology, you know, are
you really that faithful? Like you should be able to
be questioned and think about things and be open to
different ideas, you know. I think that that's just part
of the human condition. But there's a scene in this movie.
Obviously it's the open. It's it's when bartle B and
Loki are talking to each other in the airport and
(09:45):
bartle B is discussing the moment when somebody gets off
the plane and they see each other and they have
this warm embrace and all the other moments in life
are erased, you know, all the bad, sad, happyness.
Speaker 3 (09:55):
The moment the moment they stole for love.
Speaker 2 (09:57):
Actually, like if you ever watched actually at the beginning
of the movie, there's a voice over about people getting
off planes and stuff like that.
Speaker 3 (10:05):
I remember being in the movie theater seeing that and
being like, wait a second, but yeah, is it Rickman
in that movie too?
Speaker 1 (10:11):
I think Rickman is and he in love? Actually, yes, okay,
so look at that.
Speaker 2 (10:15):
Look at that, Richard Curtis owes me fifteen bucks Man.
Speaker 1 (10:20):
But yes, that's the moment. That's so such a smart,
smart thing to capture. I'm just trying to figure out
where did you find that.
Speaker 2 (10:28):
I had just started traveling a bunch because of clerks,
Like you know, I traveled with my family when I
was a kid. Even though my old man worked for
the post office. He wanted to go places. So every
year we went on a vacation within the continental United
States and stuff.
Speaker 3 (10:46):
My mom could stretch a buck.
Speaker 2 (10:48):
So when Clerks happened, I started traveling on behalf of
the movie.
Speaker 3 (10:52):
And I'm not like a travel person. I don't really
like to go any place.
Speaker 2 (10:56):
But it put me into airports more than I had
been previously in my life. Like when I was a kid,
maybe once a year, like you would go to the airport,
you know, to fly down to Florida or Virginia or
something for a family vacation. But you know, throughout my
late teens early twenties, I wasn't flying around or anything.
So because of Clerks put me back into airports. And
(11:18):
while you sit around airports, you know, you're just looking
around observing. That was one of those things that like
always touch me. You see go off a plane and
you could back in those days wait at the gate,
so as soon as somebody go off a plane, like
you could be there to hug them. It's probably a
scene that doesn't translate for a modern audience as well.
With the modern audience is just like what's going on, man,
(11:40):
how'd they get so close to the gate.
Speaker 3 (11:42):
But yeah, it came from there.
Speaker 2 (11:44):
It came from like travel starting to happen more and
the script in ninety four, it took like a massive
jump with a rewrite post pulp fiction. I'd seen pulp
fiction in Ken and suddenly it was like, oh my god,
all things are possible. The tone shifts in this movie
are so damn dramatic. I was like, I want to
(12:04):
do another draft of dog Man. That's where Dogma got
like more violent and closer to what everyone knows today.
Speaker 4 (12:11):
Well, okay, so let me ask you that then when
you're coming off of pulp fiction, obviously, I know, for
a minute, I think you wanted Rufus to be Samuel L.
Speaker 1 (12:18):
Jackson.
Speaker 3 (12:18):
Yeah, for more than a minute.
Speaker 2 (12:20):
Like when we were heading in sarcasting the movie, like
I just found recently for you know, we tour in
the movie, and so when we were at Spodcastle Cinemas
that was my movie theater, I went through the archives
and we found some cool stuff to hang up in
the theater for the screening, because the movie theater is
one giant museum anyway, and so we found the deal
memos that we sent out to like Alan to Ben
(12:44):
to Matt, and it's like dear Patrick White, soall, we'd
like to offer your client Alan Rickman the role of
Metatron for Scale plus ten and stuff. So it's it's
nuts to see like the origins and how it began
like that deal memo was dated August nineteen ninety seven. Wow,
(13:04):
So it took him another year before we would even
get on set with the movie and stuff, and then
another full year before the movie would come out.
Speaker 3 (13:12):
But wait, what was the question?
Speaker 1 (13:13):
It was about Samuel You talked about Samuel.
Speaker 2 (13:15):
Sam Jackson was one of the deal memos. Wow, before
Chris Rock was involved. Like Chris Rock was somebody who
sought us out because of Chasing Amy. He was a
big fan of Chasing Amy. So he was like, I
want to meet with the guy who made Chasing Amy
and see what he's doing next. And I was like, well,
we're making this movie called Dogma and there's a part
for Rufus that you would actually kill. So Rock lobbied
(13:39):
for the part and absolutely destroyed. And this was Rock
in ascendency right. It was just after his album and
stand up special role with The New and suddenly he
was getting respected worldwide as like the smart comedian and stuff,
and so having him in the movie, like as much
as you know, Sam Jackson's an absolute legend. Even then,
(14:04):
Chris brought something new and fresh to the table, and
he was so passionate about the role that like, you
want to lean towards somebody who pursues the role because
they're going to bring some magic to the table with them,
and Chris did. I watched the movie every night for
like a month on tour, and it's crazy how much
(14:24):
more I appreciate everyone's performances now because they've aged so
incredibly well.
Speaker 3 (14:30):
Like in the moment we were making the movie, I.
Speaker 2 (14:32):
Was like, yeah, I guess that's it, And now we
know what the movie is after a quarter of a century,
and those performances are locked in stone at this point,
and so spending every night with those performances, I could
sit there and.
Speaker 3 (14:45):
Be like, wow, look at that like that, you know.
Speaker 2 (14:47):
Linda is another one that, like when we made the movie,
like everyone else's performance very show, and Linda's is very
subtle and understated. And when I was a kid, I
was like, oh man, I wish it would she was
big like everybody else. Now I'm so glad that she
plays a human character. She's the audience's only way, and
everyone else is an angel or a demon or a
dead person. So she's Marilynd in the Monster's Bunch, and
(15:10):
her performance is so measured. You know, she's in a
batshit stupid movie, you know, in terms of like the plot,
these things don't happen in real people. But she truly
makes it work. Man, And she's like the emotional, soulful
spine of the flick. And Chris being our rufus, you know,
created a relationship that's lasted like thirty years.
Speaker 3 (15:33):
You know.
Speaker 2 (15:33):
I worked with Chris again and again and again, so
it was the right choice, hands down, but truly the
right choice based on his passion level alone.
Speaker 4 (15:41):
Yeah, I mean, I love when his introduction is in
the movie and he says something like, oh you know
Jesus or Christ?
Speaker 1 (15:49):
You know Jesus. He's like, man, he owes me twelve dollars.
Speaker 2 (15:51):
You know, yes, except the line is very specifically Chris Rock, Yeah,
a little bit Dan. He wrote that My line in
the script was like know him, I saw him naked
and so great. We got that take, and then Chris
Rock did the one that's in the movie, and I remember,
you know, everyone's cracking up. It was real funny line.
And then afterwards I was like, oh, man, that was great.
I wish I'd keep it in the movie. And he's like,
(16:13):
what are you talking about. I was like, well, I
can't just put that in, Like what would the credits
read script by Kevin Smith with one good joke by
Chris Rock And he was like, I don't need the credit.
Leave it in there. He's gone that guy. It got laughs. Man,
it's hysterical. And that was the beginning of me breaking
down and allowing for ad living. Prior to that, I
was so dictatorial about the script, like you can only
(16:33):
say it's in the script, don't make suit up. But
after that I was like, oh, I started letting more.
In the next movie I did was Jame Sallambob Struck Back.
Chris was back for that, and I all said, Will
Ferrell so it. You know, suddenly I was like, well,
I got people who are funnier than me, inarguably funnier
than me. If they got funny ideas, take them. It
ain't gonna hurt your movie, it can only help well.
Speaker 4 (16:53):
And you know, you just led me into what my
question was going to Because when you watch any quintin
movie or pulp fiction, and he talks about I'll hire
you to say the words that I wrote, Like I
really he's really big on his dialogue and there's a
very specific Quentin tone and rhythm to it. So same
with yours, Same with yours, though you so that was
the point where you said, okay, ad lib, let's go
(17:14):
for but you, but you still want them to do
your like, do what has is written and then play
with it right.
Speaker 2 (17:19):
Absolutely, like with people like justin long there's an excellent
ad liver seth Rogen even Ben Ben is a pretty
excellent ad liver as well. You get your take, you
get what you need, the things that you wrote that
you wanted to see in the movie that you wanted
to hear, and then you're like, hey, man, go nuts,
do whatever you want and you give them one or
two and let them go plays so long as I
(17:42):
got the pieces that I need, Like I direct, not
really a director, and every critic will agree with me,
but I'm more of an editor who you know, just
happens to be in charge of directing the movie as well.
So when I'm shooting and I'm just sitting on set
collecting shots in my head going, I got that, I
got that, I got that all right, we got a
scene and stuff. So once I have my limited pieces,
(18:02):
because I shoot, you know, as if the movie's a
child's puzzle, four pieces, put it together. Once I have
what I need, which is pretty early on, then I
turn it over to the performer if they're into that
sort of thing, and be like, hey man, do whatever
you want, and gold can absolutely come from it, even
if it's like one line or something like that, or
one look, it's just like one more take to pull from.
Speaker 3 (18:23):
And get left to their own devices.
Speaker 2 (18:25):
Like I'm talking about some very talented kids who can
add lib within a script, you know, so like they're
still making your movie, not just saying finding things on
step that's going to make the crew laugh. They're ad
libbing within the story. So all of it's usable ads
like an absolute gift. It's like getting a free writer.
Speaker 1 (18:41):
Right, Yeah. I can only imagine that.
Speaker 4 (18:43):
It's like, oh, wow, they took this material that I
have and they actually were able to elevate it in
a way, or maybe, like you said, have a joke
that I wouldn't have written, or you know.
Speaker 2 (18:50):
It's like watching fan fiction of your material in real time. Wow,
And like, since you know your script very well, and
this is a point in the movie's life where nobody
really knows the script except you and the people working
on the movie. To have somebody be so familiar with
the script that they're generating new material and new storylines
(19:12):
is thrilling for the person who created the storyline because
you're like, oh, that's funny, Like I never.
Speaker 3 (19:18):
Thought that the character could. That's a great act. So
it is. It's wonderful. It's watching that character flesh out
beyond even what you wrote and fun.
Speaker 2 (19:28):
Because you like I got like when I go to
work with Justin Long and Seth and Ben, those are
days where I know I'm going to laugh.
Speaker 3 (19:36):
I'm gonna get free laughs.
Speaker 2 (19:38):
I mean it ain't free because we're making a movie,
but like I'm gonna be doing my job and in
the process, like I'm gonna I know, I'm gonna laugh
so hard that my sides are gonna hurt or I'm
gonna cry. Because those there are three people who I
know know the script inside and out, and they're writers themselves,
and so I know they're gonna say something throughout the
day or bring something to the table that is complet
(20:00):
letely surprising to me and delightful at the same time.
So I love going to work those days because I
know I'm going to get what I need, but I
know I'm just gonna be like laughing my ass off.
Speaker 3 (20:09):
And that's why are we doing all this if not
to have a good time. You know.
Speaker 2 (20:13):
It's like we could grow up and get real jobs
and stuff, but we choose to make pretend for a living.
And there's a reason. It's not because the money's great.
Because money's not great and Kevin Smith movies and stuff.
It's the joy, man. It's just like the making of
joy and the joy that's made for you as you
watch your dream come true as this thing comes together.
But if you have like really talented people working with you,
(20:35):
then there's this other aspect where they're going to show
you a movie that you weren't necessarily thinking about or
planning for. One of my favorite things to say on
a movie when somebody comes up with a good idea
or whatever it is like, oh my god, let's do that.
I like your movie better than mine, and then we
head in that direction.
Speaker 4 (20:50):
Well, well, okay, let me ask you this then, So
when in all your movies you refer to other movies
like movies that you love. I mean, Fletcha Fletcher is
a big one, obviously you'll miss you know, Underhill was
even in Jay and Shila Bob reboot that was right,
good catch, yes, Alias, So when do you make the decision,
Like in Dogma there's a scene where you know, no
ticket right that I think is the line you deliver,
(21:11):
which is Indian jams Jones Lasker said, yeah, which is
a great scene, great line in both movies. But when
do you make that decision? Like, you know what, this
is a good moment to refer to something that I loved,
that made me love.
Speaker 2 (21:22):
Movies, usually when I'm sitting there writing it, you know,
and some people consider it lazy, but like you know,
for years, thirty one years now, pop culture references have.
Speaker 3 (21:32):
Been a big part of like what I do.
Speaker 2 (21:34):
My characters in habit a world quite like mine where
pop culture interests them or you know, in many ways
helps define how they think as well. So in the
writing process, that stuff usually like pops in there and
it's not even like and these are my favorite movies
of all times, Like you know, in Dogma there's a
(21:56):
karate Kid thing wax on wax off, And I like
Karate Kid as much as that, But it's not like
Karate Kid defined my life. It was just a movie
I enjoyed that I saw when I was a kid,
and then this shit and this shit like plays.
Speaker 3 (22:10):
A lot of people saw Karate Kids.
Speaker 2 (22:11):
So having God in the third act do mister Miyagi's
healing move, you know is your You get some mileage
out of it, and people like who know that get
the joke or like ah, And story wise, it just helped.
Speaker 3 (22:24):
Even if you don't know karate Kid, you know there's.
Speaker 2 (22:26):
A bunch of people in the audience wouldn't happen or
just like, oh, I guess God just has magic powers
or whatever. Fuck, So nothing is lost, but periodically you
run into somebody who doesn't speak the same language as you,
isn't as fluent. When we were making Dogma, there is
a flat out karate Kid reference where Metatron it does
(22:48):
wax sound wax and Alan.
Speaker 3 (22:52):
Wasn't familiar with the material.
Speaker 2 (22:54):
He didn't know Karate Kid, so in the script he's
got to go wax on wax And acting comes down
to a job of choices and what makes an actor
great is they make like the least obvious choice that
makes you suspend the window of disbelief and believe the
lie that tells the truth.
Speaker 3 (23:12):
That's how that magic works.
Speaker 2 (23:14):
So, not being familiar with the line from a movie,
Alan being you know, classically trained actor like performed it,
like made a choice and delivered it in a way
that like would have killed the joke because nobody would
have understood that it was a reference to Karate Kid.
So instead of you know, dropping a pop culture reference,
(23:36):
Alan didn't know the movie Karate Kids. So he acted
Waxam whack saw and it was a bold Alan Rickman choice.
So I had to from the sidelines. I was like, Alan,
no is from a movie, man, it's from Karate Kid.
Speaker 3 (23:49):
You gotta say it like this, wax on waxaw.
Speaker 2 (23:53):
And he does the slow turn to look at me
and then he goes royally trained Kevin and then he
goes back to work. And so you know, it helps
if everybody is on the same pop culture page.
Speaker 3 (24:03):
I learned that on that movie as well.
Speaker 1 (24:06):
I love that.
Speaker 4 (24:06):
And now look at this, all these years later, Dogma
is in the theaters at the same time as a
Karate Kid movie, same time.
Speaker 2 (24:11):
Look at that crazy even order is like a accounting
two came out a couple of weeks ago. The Old
Affic and Young Affleck are going to battle at the
box office this week.
Speaker 3 (24:21):
It's like that Will Smith movie that nobody saw.
Speaker 1 (24:24):
Yeah, well for good reason. No, that was mean. It
was an okay movie. Gemini Jemini, Yeah, Jim and I Man,
I think it was Jim and I Man.
Speaker 4 (24:32):
I've heard you talk about obviously casting George Carlin and
Matt and Ben and Chris and Alan, just like the
Embarrassment of Riches. Linda Salamahayak at the time too, is
coming off of Desperado, I believe at the time and
kind of really becoming an icon in her own right.
From Dust Till Dawn was around the same time, which
is a movie that's stick.
Speaker 2 (24:51):
Yeah, we followed from dust Till Dawn they were like
ninety five okay, because that's why I saw both.
Speaker 3 (24:56):
Her and Parks.
Speaker 2 (24:58):
Okay, later on, I would I've worked with both of
them and stuff. But Sama, we got to through Robert.
Robert had called me up one day to be like, hey, man,
so I'm thinking about directing the Superman script that you wrote.
I was like, oh, my god, are you kidding me?
So for a minute, Robert was going to direct my
Superman script. Then he felt he owed dimensions, so he
(25:19):
did the faculty. So we were friendly at that point.
And about a month before we went out to shoot Dogma,
I called him, I cold called him, and I said, hey, man,
would you direct Dogma for me? He goes, what are
you talking about? I was like, I got this script
and I love the script and it's so good, but
I feel like I'm going to fuck it up, like
I'm not a great director. And he goes, Kevin, you're
(25:42):
a fine director. He's going, just don't put your actors
against a wall and shoot him.
Speaker 3 (25:48):
He's like, what you.
Speaker 2 (25:49):
Do is you always got two people stand next to
each other and there's like a wall behind him. He's like,
just put a window behind him, put some depth in
the frame behind him.
Speaker 3 (25:57):
You're fine, you can do this. Just had a little
more depth to your shots.
Speaker 2 (26:02):
So he talked me off a ledge, and you know,
not only did he reveal Salma to us and Desperado,
which I absolutely endured, but he also talked me down
from walking away from from Dogma based on my ineptitude.
Speaker 3 (26:19):
He was like, you can handle this.
Speaker 4 (26:21):
Wow wow, yeah, I mean she was, she was, you know,
another just like you said, I think you've characterized it
as an embarrassment of Riches his Dogma as far as
the cast goes. And I know at one point, he
who shall not be named, as you refour to before
Harvey Weinstein called and was like, hey, maybe we could
do his series, maybe we could do Dogma two.
Speaker 1 (26:39):
And it was kind of all a red Herring or
what have you.
Speaker 4 (26:42):
But is there a world where that is a possibility
still to where maybe hey, I have an idea for
how we can re enter this world of Dogmatio.
Speaker 3 (26:51):
Oh yeah.
Speaker 2 (26:52):
The moment Alsandra Williams. She's the one that saved the movie.
When I met with her and she was talking about
what we could do with the flick, she asked like,
would you ever think about doing a sequel?
Speaker 3 (27:02):
And I was like, oh my god, yes.
Speaker 2 (27:04):
Like I remember when I began my career, I was like,
I'll never do a sequel because I've got plenty of
original ideas.
Speaker 3 (27:08):
But now you can watch.
Speaker 2 (27:09):
Clerk's three on home video, so I you know, when
I was a kid and I made the movie put
it out, I was never planning on a sequel, but
I would whimsy about like what would that look like?
You know, what would the story be and stuff, And
so after all this time, to have her be.
Speaker 3 (27:25):
Like would you want to keep going?
Speaker 2 (27:26):
I was like, oh my god, yes, like I would
love to play with these characters again. Now, when I
made this movie, the kid who wrote it and directed
it believed in everything that's on display. He was steeped
in the faith. That movie is a defense of the faith.
I'm not that person anymore. I don't have those same beliefs.
Speaker 3 (27:44):
Now. I've got good ideas. So I can't sequelize that
movie exactly.
Speaker 2 (27:52):
The way that we made it the first time, because
I don't have that same faith.
Speaker 3 (27:58):
So then the question is like, well then what is it?
Speaker 2 (28:00):
And my way in has been that, like, you know,
the guy who wrote the first one believed in everything,
and the guy who's writing the new one doesn't have
those same beliefs. And that's kind of going to be
the way in. You know, when I wrote the first one,
I was a kid with my whole life and ahead
of me, and now less life in front of me
(28:21):
than behind me and stuff. So it'll inform a dogma
follow up in a way that, you know, the young
Kevin Smith couldn't have conceived of when he started the
journey all those years ago and stuff. But the older
one gets, the more one starts realizing, Oh, this.
Speaker 3 (28:36):
Will all end, won't it.
Speaker 2 (28:37):
And when one thinks about the end or thinks about
their own demise, usually one of the next thoughts that
follow is like, what are my thoughts on the afterlife?
Speaker 3 (28:48):
You know?
Speaker 2 (28:48):
And that's when religious questions usually follow. So I'm hoping
that while writing the script, I have a different religious
journey than I was planning for.
Speaker 3 (28:59):
That'd be interesting, That'd be nice.
Speaker 4 (29:00):
That would be interesting. I'm all ears for Dogma two.
Dogma back in theaters this week. Twenty fifth anniversary, Kevin Smith.
I really appreciate your time final question for you. It's
a little bit of a departure. Well, we're talking about sequels,
you see. I have a Back to the Future Part
three poster behind me. Which is your favorite at the
Back to the Future trilogy?
Speaker 2 (29:21):
You know? I mean the first sets the tone and whatnot,
And I enjoyed the other two for expanding the storyline,
keeping the storyline going, the building out the franchise.
Speaker 3 (29:31):
But I'll never.
Speaker 2 (29:32):
Forget sitting in a movie theater with me and my
mom and dad and my friend Mike Bellacose went to
see that movie and not really being prepared, having seen
like the commercials and the trailers and stuff. But that's
an insanely well written adventure movie like Charming, what they
call a four quadrant movie, just you know, perfection across
(29:55):
the boards. There's a reason that they were able to
keep going, make a couple of sequels, and why it's
still one of the most beloved franchises of all time.
And we still haven't seen a remake of it because
there's incredible affection for it, just like you've never seen
a Jaw's remake. You know, chances are in my lifetime
we're not going to see it Back to the Future
remake with good reason because the original still holds up today.
(30:16):
So damn Charming, So I love the first one. It's
an absolute model in three X screenplay structure.
Speaker 3 (30:23):
Bob Gail.
Speaker 2 (30:25):
Was it was and is a genius, and Bob zamechis
man like handled that also goddamn beautifully. You know, Michael
Jay Fox and Christopher Lloyd one of the greatest buddy
team pair ups in cinema. History and just so magical
everything a movie should be. Take you to a place
(30:49):
that could never exist, but the plausibility is so high
based on even you know, the effects of the time,
which were not cg and mostly practical and stuff. Just
an absolutely, absolutely whimsical, magical film and the best that
American cinema can be.
Speaker 3 (31:07):
Still holds up to this day.
Speaker 1 (31:09):
It doesn't.
Speaker 4 (31:09):
It's on its fourth anniversary, Dog but twenty fifth anniversary
back in theaters, Kevin, There's been an honor and a
privilege to talk to you this morning, Dog More, one
of my favorite movies of all time, my favorite Kevin
Smith movie.
Speaker 1 (31:19):
I'm so glad it's back in theaters.
Speaker 3 (31:21):
Oh my god, you rock. Thank you for the kind
words this early have got a way to wake up.
Speaker 1 (31:28):
Appreciate you, Kevin.
Hi, everybody, This is Bob Gail co creator Back to the Future,
and you're listening to Brad Gilmore.
Speaker 2 (00:04):
Stop stop, Okaya stock, it's me, great Martin.
Speaker 1 (00:10):
You can't be such a bat to the future.
Speaker 3 (00:12):
Oh.
Speaker 1 (00:13):
I know he did send me back to the future.
Speaker 3 (00:14):
But I'm back. I'm back from the future.
Speaker 2 (00:21):
Wait a minute, Wait, gosh, f are.
Speaker 4 (00:27):
You telling me that you built the time machine.
Speaker 1 (00:32):
The way I see it?
Speaker 2 (00:33):
If you're gonna build a time machine, why not doing
some style?
Speaker 1 (00:37):
Well, dog Mack retards to theaters.
Speaker 4 (00:39):
After twenty five years of greatness and people like me
enjoying this movie on DVD, we can go, you know,
the big screen again and the man himself, the man
behind the movie, the ride of the director of the
Everything for the view ascutivorse.
Speaker 1 (00:52):
Mister Kevin Smith joins us this morning. Kevin, how are you, sir?
Speaker 3 (00:55):
Good morning, so damn good.
Speaker 2 (00:57):
Cannot believe I've lived long enough to see I'm going
to reviach milestone a quarter century milestone.
Speaker 3 (01:03):
Nuts.
Speaker 4 (01:04):
Y know this movie and I mean this honestly, I've
seen all your films.
Speaker 1 (01:08):
This is my favorite of your movies. It's always been
my favorite.
Speaker 4 (01:12):
I remember having to scour the Internet to find a
DVD copy of it at one point because it was
hard to get. Now this movie's back, It's going to
be in theaters. People can finally see it again in
the big screen. This has to be just such a
rewarding time for you right now.
Speaker 2 (01:27):
It's nuts, man, Like. The movie's been out of commission
for quite some time. It was made by mir Max,
which was owned by Disney back in the day. And
at one point Disney was like, get rid of this movie,
and so I got to say the name out louds
to brace yourselves. Harvey Weinstein personally owned the movie for
the last ever since nineteen ninety nine, so roughly the
(01:49):
last twenty five years, and for the tenth anniversary of
the fifteenth twentieth I couldn't get the movie out from
under them and stuff. You know, he had some legal problems.
So fairly recently, Alessandra Williams, who is our savior, the
Guardian Angel at Dogma, she bought the movie away from him,
(02:11):
and she approached me and be like, hey, man, what
would you like to do with it? And I was like,
you know, I would tour it like I toured Clerk's
three and Jane salimbob reboot and stuff like that, and
she goes, would you just put it in the theaters? Normally,
I don't think anyone's interested in that sort of thing.
And yet on June fifth, on Thursday, we can come
out on like fifteen hundred screens. So we went to
(02:31):
Can with the movie that was Nuts. Just got back
last Sunday for the second time. We went in nineteen
ninety nine with Dogma. Then we went back this year
for the Can Classics section. So I went from like
fifteen twenty years of no Dogma to nothing but Dogma.
For the last month. You know, I was on tour
(02:52):
twenty cities across the US.
Speaker 3 (02:54):
Every night. We did like two shows a Q and
AS after.
Speaker 2 (02:57):
So've I've been steeped in Dogma and I'm delighted to
watch it play at this stage in the game because
it reminds me of the kid who made the movie.
The kid who made that movie, wrote it and directed it,
believed in everything that was on display up there, and
I don't have those same beliefs anymore.
Speaker 3 (03:15):
Now. I got good ideas, so to speak.
Speaker 2 (03:18):
But every night I get to watch that flick and
revisit the kid for whom his Catholicism, his childhood Catholism
meant so much that he grew up and made a
movie about it.
Speaker 1 (03:28):
Well, I mean didn't isn't that where it started?
Speaker 4 (03:31):
Like when you were in film school you wrote a
script called God I Believe and you had the roof
of scene in there. That was kind of your entry
point and then it metamorphosized into what we saw initially.
But when did you think, Because like Clerks are obviously great,
mal Rats is amazing too. Malrats actually made me want
to write a screenplay and then you go into it.
Speaker 2 (03:51):
That's the highest compliment that you could give a filmmaker man,
is that their work made you want to do a thing.
Speaker 4 (03:55):
Well, what I love most about all your movies in Dogma,
and I'm going to ask you specifically about it certain scene,
but the dialogue is so great. Even Ben Affleck did
an interview I think with Vanity Fair where he talks
about there's a rhythm to Kevin Smith dialogue and you're
so about the written word that's in the script and
you can feel that and it translates. So my question
is when when you're making those first three movies, Clerk's,
(04:16):
Maul Rats and Chasing Amy and you have this God
script or there's dogma idea in the back of your head.
It to me, in some ways feels like a departure
from the smallness of the first three movies to now boom,
We're going all the way.
Speaker 1 (04:29):
We're bringing theology in here, We're.
Speaker 4 (04:30):
Bringing you know, Jesus God, We're you know, we're gonna
have a toilet Tarannosaurus pop out of nowhere, and and
and being.
Speaker 1 (04:38):
This movie feels big.
Speaker 4 (04:39):
Did you feel like since it was your fourth movie,
that was when the co you had the confidence to
do something this big.
Speaker 2 (04:45):
It wasn't so much the confidence at that point. I
was never going to have a better chance to realize
my juice. For lack of a better description, I was,
you know, clerks put us on the map in a big,
bad way. Mal rats hurt us because the movie tanged.
It became a cult classic, but when it came out,
it did not help one iota. So Chasing Amy was
(05:07):
like a hail Mary to stay in the business. And
it worked out, like you know, people critically liked it.
Speaker 3 (05:14):
It was doing.
Speaker 2 (05:16):
Good, strong business for a movie that costs two hundred
and fifty grand. It was making twelve million, So that helped. Suddenly,
like I was back and getting respected and whatnot, and
so when people were like what's next, I was able
to be like, Oh, we want to make this movie
beat Dogma that I've held on to for a bunch
of years. So also in the wake of Chasing Amy
(05:36):
was Good Wile Hunting, which went even further toward securing
a pretty decent budget for that movie.
Speaker 3 (05:43):
It was a ten million dollar movie.
Speaker 2 (05:44):
We probably could have used twenty, but we still like
made it work for like ten million bucks. And Ben
and Matt being in Good Will Hunting and having that
blow up like absolutely paved the runway in a big,
bad way. So it felt like now's the time, you know,
Like if I could have gotten away with it as
a second movie, I would have tried, but thankfully that
(06:04):
didn't happen because I wasn't ready. So after Chasing Amy,
it was like, look, there's gonna be no time like this.
And I was at a point in my career where
like it was a crossroads. I could have done a
bunch of different things. I was in this deal with
Universal to make a movie called Son of Fletch with
Chevy Chase and Jason Lee, and Joey Adams, and I
(06:27):
had to let that go because I wanted to make Dogma, though,
like you got this or Dogma?
Speaker 3 (06:31):
I was like Dogma. And then Lorenzo debon Ventura.
Speaker 2 (06:35):
Who was the producer like later on of those Transformers movies,
but back then he ran Warner Brothers. He invited me
to his house for a dinner, and after the dinner
he's like, you know, Warner Brothers, we have all these
properties that aren't Batman and Superman, all these comic book
characters that could be great movies, and nobody's working on.
(06:55):
He's like, would you like to run a division here
at Warner Brothers? All you do is go through all
the DC comic books that aren't Batman's Superman and figure
out stuff to make. So essentially he was like, would
you like to be Kevin Foggy before Kevin fi.
Speaker 3 (07:11):
But at DC?
Speaker 2 (07:12):
And I was so in love with Dogma and like,
oh my god, if I don't do it now, I'm
never gonna have a chance that. I was like, that's flattering,
but like, no, I want to do my thing. So
I was ready and it felt like I'm never going
to be in a better position than this and since
critically we're coming off of Chasing Amy, like that's how
(07:33):
we got Chris Rock, That's how we got Alan Rickman.
Those are two of the cast that sought us out
based on like Chasing Amy. So it was the heat
of the moment to quote Asia that really kind of
allowed a Dogma to bloom. Any other time it wouldn't happened. Man,
(07:54):
my friend Malcolm is always saying, like, it's interesting you
with the juice that you had. He's like, you really
could have done anything, and you chose to make a
religious movie with a bunch of famous people, and I
was like, I know, it.
Speaker 3 (08:07):
Just felt like the right thing to do.
Speaker 2 (08:08):
So now twenty five or technically twenty six years after
we made it, it's you know, I've never regretted my decision,
but it's been a lovely month of like, oh yeah,
like this is why I made Dogma, you know, and
not somebody else's thing. Like I would have enjoyed making
Son of Fletch, but at the end of the day,
that's somebody else's thing, you know. I would have enjoyed
(08:32):
running a division of the DC that made comic book
movies that I wasn't going to direct but I was
going to produce or something, but that wouldn't have been
as cool as my own thing. And so, you know,
always die on the cross of originality kids, like, there's
always somebody more talented than you to make the movie
that doesn't have your name on it. But only you
(08:53):
can make the movie with your name on the one
you dream about making. And thank god I did. Man,
it's aged and well and in a career. You know,
that's been going on for like thirty one years. The
long you stick around, the less they're like, yay, you know,
they're like, uh, clerk's nineteen, what the fuck? So it's
nice to have one in the pocket that people still
(09:14):
like well.
Speaker 4 (09:15):
And and one like you said, that still has a
message that I think that would resonate with people well,
you know, whether they're religious or not.
Speaker 1 (09:22):
I think that now.
Speaker 4 (09:23):
I mean I'm a religious person, but I think that
if you have your religion, if you're not okay with
having your religion questioned or your ideology, you know, are
you really that faithful? Like you should be able to
be questioned and think about things and be open to
different ideas, you know. I think that that's just part
of the human condition. But there's a scene in this movie.
Obviously it's the open. It's it's when bartle B and
Loki are talking to each other in the airport and
(09:45):
bartle B is discussing the moment when somebody gets off
the plane and they see each other and they have
this warm embrace and all the other moments in life
are erased, you know, all the bad, sad, happyness.
Speaker 3 (09:55):
The moment the moment they stole for love.
Speaker 2 (09:57):
Actually, like if you ever watched actually at the beginning
of the movie, there's a voice over about people getting
off planes and stuff like that.
Speaker 3 (10:05):
I remember being in the movie theater seeing that and
being like, wait a second, but yeah, is it Rickman
in that movie too?
Speaker 1 (10:11):
I think Rickman is and he in love? Actually, yes, okay,
so look at that.
Speaker 2 (10:15):
Look at that, Richard Curtis owes me fifteen bucks Man.
Speaker 1 (10:20):
But yes, that's the moment. That's so such a smart,
smart thing to capture. I'm just trying to figure out
where did you find that.
Speaker 2 (10:28):
I had just started traveling a bunch because of clerks,
Like you know, I traveled with my family when I
was a kid. Even though my old man worked for
the post office. He wanted to go places. So every
year we went on a vacation within the continental United
States and stuff.
Speaker 3 (10:46):
My mom could stretch a buck.
Speaker 2 (10:48):
So when Clerks happened, I started traveling on behalf of
the movie.
Speaker 3 (10:52):
And I'm not like a travel person. I don't really
like to go any place.
Speaker 2 (10:56):
But it put me into airports more than I had
been previously in my life. Like when I was a kid,
maybe once a year, like you would go to the airport,
you know, to fly down to Florida or Virginia or
something for a family vacation. But you know, throughout my
late teens early twenties, I wasn't flying around or anything.
So because of Clerks put me back into airports. And
(11:18):
while you sit around airports, you know, you're just looking
around observing. That was one of those things that like
always touch me. You see go off a plane and
you could back in those days wait at the gate,
so as soon as somebody go off a plane, like
you could be there to hug them. It's probably a
scene that doesn't translate for a modern audience as well.
With the modern audience is just like what's going on, man,
(11:40):
how'd they get so close to the gate.
Speaker 3 (11:42):
But yeah, it came from there.
Speaker 2 (11:44):
It came from like travel starting to happen more and
the script in ninety four, it took like a massive
jump with a rewrite post pulp fiction. I'd seen pulp
fiction in Ken and suddenly it was like, oh my god,
all things are possible. The tone shifts in this movie
are so damn dramatic. I was like, I want to
(12:04):
do another draft of dog Man. That's where Dogma got
like more violent and closer to what everyone knows today.
Speaker 4 (12:11):
Well, okay, so let me ask you that then when
you're coming off of pulp fiction, obviously, I know, for
a minute, I think you wanted Rufus to be Samuel L.
Speaker 1 (12:18):
Jackson.
Speaker 3 (12:18):
Yeah, for more than a minute.
Speaker 2 (12:20):
Like when we were heading in sarcasting the movie, like
I just found recently for you know, we tour in
the movie, and so when we were at Spodcastle Cinemas
that was my movie theater, I went through the archives
and we found some cool stuff to hang up in
the theater for the screening, because the movie theater is
one giant museum anyway, and so we found the deal
memos that we sent out to like Alan to Ben
(12:44):
to Matt, and it's like dear Patrick White, soall, we'd
like to offer your client Alan Rickman the role of
Metatron for Scale plus ten and stuff. So it's it's
nuts to see like the origins and how it began
like that deal memo was dated August nineteen ninety seven. Wow,
(13:04):
So it took him another year before we would even
get on set with the movie and stuff, and then
another full year before the movie would come out.
Speaker 3 (13:12):
But wait, what was the question?
Speaker 1 (13:13):
It was about Samuel You talked about Samuel.
Speaker 2 (13:15):
Sam Jackson was one of the deal memos. Wow, before
Chris Rock was involved. Like Chris Rock was somebody who
sought us out because of Chasing Amy. He was a
big fan of Chasing Amy. So he was like, I
want to meet with the guy who made Chasing Amy
and see what he's doing next. And I was like, well,
we're making this movie called Dogma and there's a part
for Rufus that you would actually kill. So Rock lobbied
(13:39):
for the part and absolutely destroyed. And this was Rock
in ascendency right. It was just after his album and
stand up special role with The New and suddenly he
was getting respected worldwide as like the smart comedian and stuff,
and so having him in the movie, like as much
as you know, Sam Jackson's an absolute legend. Even then,
(14:04):
Chris brought something new and fresh to the table, and
he was so passionate about the role that like, you
want to lean towards somebody who pursues the role because
they're going to bring some magic to the table with them,
and Chris did. I watched the movie every night for
like a month on tour, and it's crazy how much
(14:24):
more I appreciate everyone's performances now because they've aged so
incredibly well.
Speaker 3 (14:30):
Like in the moment we were making the movie, I.
Speaker 2 (14:32):
Was like, yeah, I guess that's it, And now we
know what the movie is after a quarter of a century,
and those performances are locked in stone at this point,
and so spending every night with those performances, I could
sit there and.
Speaker 3 (14:45):
Be like, wow, look at that like that, you know.
Speaker 2 (14:47):
Linda is another one that, like when we made the movie,
like everyone else's performance very show, and Linda's is very
subtle and understated. And when I was a kid, I
was like, oh man, I wish it would she was
big like everybody else. Now I'm so glad that she
plays a human character. She's the audience's only way, and
everyone else is an angel or a demon or a
dead person. So she's Marilynd in the Monster's Bunch, and
(15:10):
her performance is so measured. You know, she's in a
batshit stupid movie, you know, in terms of like the plot,
these things don't happen in real people. But she truly
makes it work. Man, And she's like the emotional, soulful
spine of the flick. And Chris being our rufus, you know,
created a relationship that's lasted like thirty years.
Speaker 3 (15:33):
You know.
Speaker 2 (15:33):
I worked with Chris again and again and again, so
it was the right choice, hands down, but truly the
right choice based on his passion level alone.
Speaker 4 (15:41):
Yeah, I mean, I love when his introduction is in
the movie and he says something like, oh you know
Jesus or Christ?
Speaker 1 (15:49):
You know Jesus. He's like, man, he owes me twelve dollars.
Speaker 2 (15:51):
You know, yes, except the line is very specifically Chris Rock, Yeah,
a little bit Dan. He wrote that My line in
the script was like know him, I saw him naked
and so great. We got that take, and then Chris
Rock did the one that's in the movie, and I remember,
you know, everyone's cracking up. It was real funny line.
And then afterwards I was like, oh, man, that was great.
I wish I'd keep it in the movie. And he's like,
(16:13):
what are you talking about. I was like, well, I
can't just put that in, Like what would the credits
read script by Kevin Smith with one good joke by
Chris Rock And he was like, I don't need the credit.
Leave it in there. He's gone that guy. It got laughs. Man,
it's hysterical. And that was the beginning of me breaking
down and allowing for ad living. Prior to that, I
was so dictatorial about the script, like you can only
(16:33):
say it's in the script, don't make suit up. But
after that I was like, oh, I started letting more.
In the next movie I did was Jame Sallambob Struck Back.
Chris was back for that, and I all said, Will
Ferrell so it. You know, suddenly I was like, well,
I got people who are funnier than me, inarguably funnier
than me. If they got funny ideas, take them. It
ain't gonna hurt your movie, it can only help well.
Speaker 4 (16:53):
And you know, you just led me into what my
question was going to Because when you watch any quintin
movie or pulp fiction, and he talks about I'll hire
you to say the words that I wrote, Like I
really he's really big on his dialogue and there's a
very specific Quentin tone and rhythm to it. So same
with yours, Same with yours, though you so that was
the point where you said, okay, ad lib, let's go
(17:14):
for but you, but you still want them to do
your like, do what has is written and then play
with it right.
Speaker 2 (17:19):
Absolutely, like with people like justin long there's an excellent
ad liver seth Rogen even Ben Ben is a pretty
excellent ad liver as well. You get your take, you
get what you need, the things that you wrote that
you wanted to see in the movie that you wanted
to hear, and then you're like, hey, man, go nuts,
do whatever you want and you give them one or
two and let them go plays so long as I
(17:42):
got the pieces that I need, Like I direct, not
really a director, and every critic will agree with me,
but I'm more of an editor who you know, just
happens to be in charge of directing the movie as well.
So when I'm shooting and I'm just sitting on set
collecting shots in my head going, I got that, I
got that, I got that all right, we got a
scene and stuff. So once I have my limited pieces,
(18:02):
because I shoot, you know, as if the movie's a
child's puzzle, four pieces, put it together. Once I have
what I need, which is pretty early on, then I
turn it over to the performer if they're into that
sort of thing, and be like, hey man, do whatever
you want, and gold can absolutely come from it, even
if it's like one line or something like that, or
one look, it's just like one more take to pull from.
Speaker 3 (18:23):
And get left to their own devices.
Speaker 2 (18:25):
Like I'm talking about some very talented kids who can
add lib within a script, you know, so like they're
still making your movie, not just saying finding things on
step that's going to make the crew laugh. They're ad
libbing within the story. So all of it's usable ads
like an absolute gift. It's like getting a free writer.
Speaker 1 (18:41):
Right, Yeah. I can only imagine that.
Speaker 4 (18:43):
It's like, oh, wow, they took this material that I
have and they actually were able to elevate it in
a way, or maybe, like you said, have a joke
that I wouldn't have written, or you know.
Speaker 2 (18:50):
It's like watching fan fiction of your material in real time. Wow,
And like, since you know your script very well, and
this is a point in the movie's life where nobody
really knows the script except you and the people working
on the movie. To have somebody be so familiar with
the script that they're generating new material and new storylines
(19:12):
is thrilling for the person who created the storyline because
you're like, oh, that's funny, Like I never.
Speaker 3 (19:18):
Thought that the character could. That's a great act. So
it is. It's wonderful. It's watching that character flesh out
beyond even what you wrote and fun.
Speaker 2 (19:28):
Because you like I got like when I go to
work with Justin Long and Seth and Ben, those are
days where I know I'm going to laugh.
Speaker 3 (19:36):
I'm gonna get free laughs.
Speaker 2 (19:38):
I mean it ain't free because we're making a movie,
but like I'm gonna be doing my job and in
the process, like I'm gonna I know, I'm gonna laugh
so hard that my sides are gonna hurt or I'm
gonna cry. Because those there are three people who I
know know the script inside and out, and they're writers themselves,
and so I know they're gonna say something throughout the
day or bring something to the table that is complet
(20:00):
letely surprising to me and delightful at the same time.
So I love going to work those days because I
know I'm going to get what I need, but I
know I'm just gonna be like laughing my ass off.
Speaker 3 (20:09):
And that's why are we doing all this if not
to have a good time. You know.
Speaker 2 (20:13):
It's like we could grow up and get real jobs
and stuff, but we choose to make pretend for a living.
And there's a reason. It's not because the money's great.
Because money's not great and Kevin Smith movies and stuff.
It's the joy, man. It's just like the making of
joy and the joy that's made for you as you
watch your dream come true as this thing comes together.
But if you have like really talented people working with you,
(20:35):
then there's this other aspect where they're going to show
you a movie that you weren't necessarily thinking about or
planning for. One of my favorite things to say on
a movie when somebody comes up with a good idea
or whatever it is like, oh my god, let's do that.
I like your movie better than mine, and then we
head in that direction.
Speaker 4 (20:50):
Well, well, okay, let me ask you this then, So
when in all your movies you refer to other movies
like movies that you love. I mean, Fletcha Fletcher is
a big one, obviously you'll miss you know, Underhill was
even in Jay and Shila Bob reboot that was right,
good catch, yes, Alias, So when do you make the decision,
Like in Dogma there's a scene where you know, no
ticket right that I think is the line you deliver,
(21:11):
which is Indian jams Jones Lasker said, yeah, which is
a great scene, great line in both movies. But when
do you make that decision? Like, you know what, this
is a good moment to refer to something that I loved,
that made me love.
Speaker 2 (21:22):
Movies, usually when I'm sitting there writing it, you know,
and some people consider it lazy, but like you know,
for years, thirty one years now, pop culture references have.
Speaker 3 (21:32):
Been a big part of like what I do.
Speaker 2 (21:34):
My characters in habit a world quite like mine where
pop culture interests them or you know, in many ways
helps define how they think as well. So in the
writing process, that stuff usually like pops in there and
it's not even like and these are my favorite movies
of all times, Like you know, in Dogma there's a
(21:56):
karate Kid thing wax on wax off, And I like
Karate Kid as much as that, But it's not like
Karate Kid defined my life. It was just a movie
I enjoyed that I saw when I was a kid,
and then this shit and this shit like plays.
Speaker 3 (22:10):
A lot of people saw Karate Kids.
Speaker 2 (22:11):
So having God in the third act do mister Miyagi's
healing move, you know is your You get some mileage
out of it, and people like who know that get
the joke or like ah, And story wise, it just helped.
Speaker 3 (22:24):
Even if you don't know karate Kid, you know there's.
Speaker 2 (22:26):
A bunch of people in the audience wouldn't happen or
just like, oh, I guess God just has magic powers
or whatever. Fuck, So nothing is lost, but periodically you
run into somebody who doesn't speak the same language as you,
isn't as fluent. When we were making Dogma, there is
a flat out karate Kid reference where Metatron it does
(22:48):
wax sound wax and Alan.
Speaker 3 (22:52):
Wasn't familiar with the material.
Speaker 2 (22:54):
He didn't know Karate Kid, so in the script he's
got to go wax on wax And acting comes down
to a job of choices and what makes an actor
great is they make like the least obvious choice that
makes you suspend the window of disbelief and believe the
lie that tells the truth.
Speaker 3 (23:12):
That's how that magic works.
Speaker 2 (23:14):
So, not being familiar with the line from a movie,
Alan being you know, classically trained actor like performed it,
like made a choice and delivered it in a way
that like would have killed the joke because nobody would
have understood that it was a reference to Karate Kid.
So instead of you know, dropping a pop culture reference,
(23:36):
Alan didn't know the movie Karate Kids. So he acted
Waxam whack saw and it was a bold Alan Rickman choice.
So I had to from the sidelines. I was like, Alan,
no is from a movie, man, it's from Karate Kid.
Speaker 3 (23:49):
You gotta say it like this, wax on waxaw.
Speaker 2 (23:53):
And he does the slow turn to look at me
and then he goes royally trained Kevin and then he
goes back to work. And so you know, it helps
if everybody is on the same pop culture page.
Speaker 3 (24:03):
I learned that on that movie as well.
Speaker 1 (24:06):
I love that.
Speaker 4 (24:06):
And now look at this, all these years later, Dogma
is in the theaters at the same time as a
Karate Kid movie, same time.
Speaker 2 (24:11):
Look at that crazy even order is like a accounting
two came out a couple of weeks ago. The Old
Affic and Young Affleck are going to battle at the
box office this week.
Speaker 3 (24:21):
It's like that Will Smith movie that nobody saw.
Speaker 1 (24:24):
Yeah, well for good reason. No, that was mean. It
was an okay movie. Gemini Jemini, Yeah, Jim and I Man,
I think it was Jim and I Man.
Speaker 4 (24:32):
I've heard you talk about obviously casting George Carlin and
Matt and Ben and Chris and Alan, just like the
Embarrassment of Riches. Linda Salamahayak at the time too, is
coming off of Desperado, I believe at the time and
kind of really becoming an icon in her own right.
From Dust Till Dawn was around the same time, which
is a movie that's stick.
Speaker 2 (24:51):
Yeah, we followed from dust Till Dawn they were like
ninety five okay, because that's why I saw both.
Speaker 3 (24:56):
Her and Parks.
Speaker 2 (24:58):
Okay, later on, I would I've worked with both of
them and stuff. But Sama, we got to through Robert.
Robert had called me up one day to be like, hey, man,
so I'm thinking about directing the Superman script that you wrote.
I was like, oh, my god, are you kidding me?
So for a minute, Robert was going to direct my
Superman script. Then he felt he owed dimensions, so he
(25:19):
did the faculty. So we were friendly at that point.
And about a month before we went out to shoot Dogma,
I called him, I cold called him, and I said, hey, man,
would you direct Dogma for me? He goes, what are
you talking about? I was like, I got this script
and I love the script and it's so good, but
I feel like I'm going to fuck it up, like
I'm not a great director. And he goes, Kevin, you're
(25:42):
a fine director. He's going, just don't put your actors
against a wall and shoot him.
Speaker 3 (25:48):
He's like, what you.
Speaker 2 (25:49):
Do is you always got two people stand next to
each other and there's like a wall behind him. He's like,
just put a window behind him, put some depth in
the frame behind him.
Speaker 3 (25:57):
You're fine, you can do this. Just had a little
more depth to your shots.
Speaker 2 (26:02):
So he talked me off a ledge, and you know,
not only did he reveal Salma to us and Desperado,
which I absolutely endured, but he also talked me down
from walking away from from Dogma based on my ineptitude.
Speaker 3 (26:19):
He was like, you can handle this.
Speaker 4 (26:21):
Wow wow, yeah, I mean she was, she was, you know,
another just like you said, I think you've characterized it
as an embarrassment of Riches his Dogma as far as
the cast goes. And I know at one point, he
who shall not be named, as you refour to before
Harvey Weinstein called and was like, hey, maybe we could
do his series, maybe we could do Dogma two.
Speaker 1 (26:39):
And it was kind of all a red Herring or
what have you.
Speaker 4 (26:42):
But is there a world where that is a possibility
still to where maybe hey, I have an idea for
how we can re enter this world of Dogmatio.
Speaker 3 (26:51):
Oh yeah.
Speaker 2 (26:52):
The moment Alsandra Williams. She's the one that saved the movie.
When I met with her and she was talking about
what we could do with the flick, she asked like,
would you ever think about doing a sequel?
Speaker 3 (27:02):
And I was like, oh my god, yes.
Speaker 2 (27:04):
Like I remember when I began my career, I was like,
I'll never do a sequel because I've got plenty of
original ideas.
Speaker 3 (27:08):
But now you can watch.
Speaker 2 (27:09):
Clerk's three on home video, so I you know, when
I was a kid and I made the movie put
it out, I was never planning on a sequel, but
I would whimsy about like what would that look like?
You know, what would the story be and stuff, And
so after all this time, to have her be.
Speaker 3 (27:25):
Like would you want to keep going?
Speaker 2 (27:26):
I was like, oh my god, yes, like I would
love to play with these characters again. Now, when I
made this movie, the kid who wrote it and directed
it believed in everything that's on display. He was steeped
in the faith. That movie is a defense of the faith.
I'm not that person anymore. I don't have those same beliefs.
Speaker 3 (27:44):
Now. I've got good ideas. So I can't sequelize that
movie exactly.
Speaker 2 (27:52):
The way that we made it the first time, because
I don't have that same faith.
Speaker 3 (27:58):
So then the question is like, well then what is it?
Speaker 2 (28:00):
And my way in has been that, like, you know,
the guy who wrote the first one believed in everything,
and the guy who's writing the new one doesn't have
those same beliefs. And that's kind of going to be
the way in. You know, when I wrote the first one,
I was a kid with my whole life and ahead
of me, and now less life in front of me
(28:21):
than behind me and stuff. So it'll inform a dogma
follow up in a way that, you know, the young
Kevin Smith couldn't have conceived of when he started the
journey all those years ago and stuff. But the older
one gets, the more one starts realizing, Oh, this.
Speaker 3 (28:36):
Will all end, won't it.
Speaker 2 (28:37):
And when one thinks about the end or thinks about
their own demise, usually one of the next thoughts that
follow is like, what are my thoughts on the afterlife?
Speaker 3 (28:48):
You know?
Speaker 2 (28:48):
And that's when religious questions usually follow. So I'm hoping
that while writing the script, I have a different religious
journey than I was planning for.
Speaker 3 (28:59):
That'd be interesting, That'd be nice.
Speaker 4 (29:00):
That would be interesting. I'm all ears for Dogma two.
Dogma back in theaters this week. Twenty fifth anniversary, Kevin Smith.
I really appreciate your time final question for you. It's
a little bit of a departure. Well, we're talking about sequels,
you see. I have a Back to the Future Part
three poster behind me. Which is your favorite at the
Back to the Future trilogy?
Speaker 2 (29:21):
You know? I mean the first sets the tone and whatnot,
And I enjoyed the other two for expanding the storyline,
keeping the storyline going, the building out the franchise.
Speaker 3 (29:31):
But I'll never.
Speaker 2 (29:32):
Forget sitting in a movie theater with me and my
mom and dad and my friend Mike Bellacose went to
see that movie and not really being prepared, having seen
like the commercials and the trailers and stuff. But that's
an insanely well written adventure movie like Charming, what they
call a four quadrant movie, just you know, perfection across
(29:55):
the boards. There's a reason that they were able to
keep going, make a couple of sequels, and why it's
still one of the most beloved franchises of all time.
And we still haven't seen a remake of it because
there's incredible affection for it, just like you've never seen
a Jaw's remake. You know, chances are in my lifetime
we're not going to see it Back to the Future
remake with good reason because the original still holds up today.
(30:16):
So damn Charming, So I love the first one. It's
an absolute model in three X screenplay structure.
Speaker 3 (30:23):
Bob Gail.
Speaker 2 (30:25):
Was it was and is a genius, and Bob zamechis
man like handled that also goddamn beautifully. You know, Michael
Jay Fox and Christopher Lloyd one of the greatest buddy
team pair ups in cinema. History and just so magical
everything a movie should be. Take you to a place
(30:49):
that could never exist, but the plausibility is so high
based on even you know, the effects of the time,
which were not cg and mostly practical and stuff. Just
an absolutely, absolutely whimsical, magical film and the best that
American cinema can be.
Speaker 3 (31:07):
Still holds up to this day.
Speaker 1 (31:09):
It doesn't.
Speaker 4 (31:09):
It's on its fourth anniversary, Dog but twenty fifth anniversary
back in theaters, Kevin, There's been an honor and a
privilege to talk to you this morning, Dog More, one
of my favorite movies of all time, my favorite Kevin
Smith movie.
Speaker 1 (31:19):
I'm so glad it's back in theaters.
Speaker 3 (31:21):
Oh my god, you rock. Thank you for the kind
words this early have got a way to wake up.
Speaker 1 (31:28):
Appreciate you, Kevin.
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