January 9, 2025 • 34 mins
Sun Records in Memphis, Tennessee claims to be the birthplace of Rock and Roll.
But just what does it mean to be “The Birthplace of Rock and Roll”?
Can we accept such a claim without first diving even deep into the murky depths of American musical history.
Noodles and I head to Memphis to find out …
(Beneath the shadow of Graceland and within earshot of the blues of Beale street - the small label hosted musical greats like Howlin’ Wolf, B. B. King, Jerry Lee Lewis, Johnny Adams , Carl Perkins, Johnny Cash and a young Elvis Presley.)
Works Cited:
Great book:
The Birth of Rock 'n' Roll: The Illustrated Story of Sun Records and the 70 Recordings That Changed the World
Fantastic documentary produced by Quincy Jones:
The History of Rock 'n' Roll - TV Mini Series (1995) - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U2Ptv_7VqO4&list=PLIhBC_-F81kxTgSYJUMVXmjPwrLf8aXTP
Additional articles and references:
https://www.jstor.org/stable/30003142?read-now=1&seq=7#page_scan_tab_contents
https://www.jstor.org/stable/1214792?read-now=1&seq=17#page_scan_tab_contents
https://www.jstor.org/stable/494739?read-now=1&seq=2#page_scan_tab_contents
https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2015/11/16/the-elvic-oracle
https://sunrecords.com/history/
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YXGubLQcnAg
https://wearememphis.com/play/music/brief-history-memphis-music/
https://musicmecca.org/a-brief-history-of-memphis-music/
https://timeline.carnegiehall.org/genres/rock-n-roll
https://timeline.carnegiehall.org/genres/boogie-woogie
https://www.classical-music.com/articles/blues-music
https://www.masterclass.com/articles/blues-music-guide
https://www.strathmore.org/community-education/public-education/shades-of-blues/blues-clues/
https://www.masterclass.com/articles/gospel-music-guide
https://thegoldenageofrock.com/rock/the-influence-of-gospel/
https://www.history.com/news/race-records-bessie-smith-big-bill-broonzy-music-business
https://www.rollingstone.com/music/music-features/500-greatest-songs-podcast-hound-dog-elvis-presley-1234998378/
https://faroutmagazine.co.uk/the-whitewashing-of-black-music-five-singles-m
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Cruising down the street.
I wonder where this road wouldlead so many possibilities.
Care to share what you think.
Oh, noodle Dolls, what do yousee?
Back Road, odyssey road odyssey.
(00:28):
Sun records in memphis,tennessee, claims to be the
birthplace of rock and roll.
Beneath the shadow of graceland, and within earshot of the
blues of beale street, the smalllabel hosted musical greats
like helen wolf, bb king, jerryKing, jerry Lee Lewis, johnny
Adams, carl Perkins, johnny Cashand a young Elvis Presley.
(00:50):
But what does it mean to be thebirthplace of rock and roll?
Can we accept such a claimwithout first diving deep into
the murky depths of Americanmusical history?
My dog Noodles and I head toMemphis to find out.
We just spent the morning inMemphis Beautiful day, blue
(01:15):
skies.
We're both in great moods.
My dog Noodles and I arewalking around the Edge
neighborhood now, which connectsdowntown to Midtown, and this
is the area where the reportedbirthplace of rock and roll is
Sun Records.
We'll be touring Sun Records injust a little bit, but for now
we've got some time to kill.
So I figured let's walk to alocation that's just about as
(01:39):
important to our story today asanything.
We're going to Beale street.
It's about a 20 minute walkfrom Sun Records and it's deeply
, deeply tied to the blues and,by extension, the history of
rock and roll.
Wc, handy, albert King, so manyothers helped popularize blues
on that very street, and so whenblues lover and founder of Sun
(02:01):
Records, sam Phillips, moves toMemphis in 1945, beale Street's
a real draw right.
You can imagine him walkingdown the something like 15, 16
blocks of live music, reallytaking it all in.
Why am I bringing this up?
Aren't we supposed to betalking about rock and roll?
Here's a point I want to makeright away.
We need to keep this in mindgoing forward.
(02:22):
The history of rock and roll isnot the story of one genre of
music and it's most definitelynot going to be traced to one
white future label owner walkingdown Beale Street in 1945.
The history of rock and roll isas rich and complex as just
about anything.
(02:43):
That's why, today, we can'tsimply tell the story of the
quote birthplace of rock androll, sun Records.
To do this would ignore so muchcontext, so much history.
Come here, bud.
All right, let's get into it.
Here's our question, then Notan easy one to start with, my
friends.
What is rock and roll?
(03:04):
Rock and roll has no beginningand no end, for it is the very
pulse of life itself.
Larry Williams, is this true?
Does rock and roll really haveno definitive beginning, no
traceable origin, or can what wecall rock and roll today be
(03:27):
traced back to a singular person, place or time?
The simple answer is peoplehave tried to, but it's hard to
claim a singular person createdwhat we call rock and roll today
or insist a charismatic risingidol came down from the mountain
to reveal rock and roll to themasses will never, and hasn't
(03:49):
ever been the full story.
In reality, the seeds of rockand roll were planted well over
a century ago.
Blues is a tonic for whateverails you.
I could play the blues and thennot be blue anymore.
Bb King.
(04:12):
Rock and Roll's first andprobably most direct influence
is the blues, a style of musicborn from the truly horrid
conditions suffered by thoseenslaved in the Deep South.
While being forced to workunder the blaring southern sun,
slaves would sing, willingthemselves to get through each
day.
These songs focused on loss, ondeep, deep injustice, and were
(04:38):
from the beginning meant toserve as a tonic for pain, but
blues didn't end with theabolition of slavery.
Serve as a tonic for pain, butblues didn't end with the
abolition of slavery.
The style, with its emotivelyrics, colon responses, often
improvised words and a slightlowering of the pitch, created
an eerily beautiful way ofacknowledging the pain of both
(04:58):
the present and the past.
It was in direct contrast withthe bright, ringing tones of
white American musicaltraditions, classical American
folk, etc.
Still, blues expanded, adaptedand thrived From 1910 to around
1930,.
The movement of Black Americansacross the nation from the Deep
(05:21):
South brought the constantlydeveloping blues to bustling
cities around the nation.
And as this spreading of theblues quickened, so did its
tempo.
Sub-styles emerged, jump blues,west Coast, texas, all inching
towards something new.
Blues, regardless of anymodification, always expressed
(05:45):
and expresses the kind ofgallows, humor and
acknowledgement of havingoutlived such terrible and
unjust conditions.
There is a sound that comesfrom gospel, that doesn't come
from anything else.
It is a sound of peace, it is asound of I'm going to make it
through this, yolanda Adams.
(06:07):
Like the blues, the roots ofgospel can be traced back to the
19th century, when Blackcommunities around the South
began to develop individualizedexpressions of religious music
that reflected their experiences.
With its powerful vocals,passionate harmonies and deep
(06:29):
emotional intensity, the stylequickly became a staple of Black
churches throughout the Southand beyond.
While blues tended to settleinto the pain and the deep
horror of the black experiencein America, gospel both
(06:50):
acknowledged the bad whileleaving some room and expressing
some hope for the good and forthe future.
These two styles, blues andgospel, influenced and melded
with each other as timeprogressed.
Both are fundamental inunderstanding the creation of
(07:11):
what we know as rock and roll.
Without blues, without gospel,we might just be singing sea
shanties at a Springsteenconcert.
I'm on Beale Street now.
It's maybe three in theafternoon, not much going on,
just cool to be here.
You know what's interesting?
I was thinking this on the walkover.
(07:32):
It's so easy to label someoneas the first to ever do
something With anything, butspecifically with music.
Think about it.
You don't have Michael Jackson,really, without James Brown,
eric Clapton without muddywaters, Springsteen uh, the
stones without Chuck Berry, andeven Chuck Berry without the
(07:56):
trailblazer sister Rosetta Tharpjust shreds on a guitar.
She's so cool.
Um, I'll post a video in theshow notes.
But my point is this it's easyto attribute anything's
existence to one person, but themore you look into things, the
(08:16):
more interconnected everythingbecomes.
So, before we tour thebirthplace of rock and roll, sun
Records.
It's essential.
It's essential that we dive asdeep as we can into the history.
It used to be called boogiewoogie, it used to be called
blues.
It used to be called rhythm andblues.
It's called rock.
(08:37):
Now Chuck Berry, as bluesentered the collective American
(09:05):
line, largely played on thepiano, bluesy vocals, but above
all else, a driving rhythmintentionally designed to get
people moving.
Boogie Woogie was once afeature in logging and railroad
camps throughout the South, butslowly moved to larger cities,
attracting more and more crowdseager for an upbeat tune, a
(09:29):
proper smash, as it were.
You're talking about a musicthat was bred from Africa to the
black church and over to gospel, which turned into blues and
jazz and country music.
(09:49):
And that's how it ought to be.
That's how it started QuincyJones by the 1940s, electric
guitars, brass instruments,booming drums, accompanied
greats like T-Bone Walker andJimmy Rushing, both using blends
of gospel, blues andboogie-woogie.
And this blend of genres andsub-genres led to a certain
(10:11):
amount of fluidity.
Your blues songs could have asplash of gospel, some
boogie-woogie, the newly coinedfast-jump blues.
But let's stop for a second andmeet two primary drivers in the
eventual creation of the termrock and roll, one, record
(10:32):
companies and two, the need toclassify.
Let's explain this new freedom,this new blending of gospel
blues, boogie, woogie, jump,jazz, harlem, stride, ragtime I
could keep going Demanded sometype of classification and
segregated America.
(10:54):
What was deemed quote pop music,that being songs and artists
marketed to white America, wasnot and could not, to record
executives and culturalunderstandings, be the same
music pioneered by Black artistsfrom Chicago to Philadelphia
and beyond.
So, consequently, this new andever-evolving style performed
(11:18):
and perfected by Black artists,was wrapped up in the dismissive
, blanket term used by industryexecutives at the time quote
race music.
And race music would bemarketed to listen by and sold
directly to the black population.
Rhythm and blues used to becalled race music.
(11:41):
This music was going on foryears, but nobody paid any
attention to it.
Ray Charles, well, this meltingpot of musical styles thrived.
Many, rightfully so, found thegrouping of all these artists,
all these songs, all thesedifferent genres into one
(12:01):
singular category, that of quoterace music, deeply dismissive.
Eventually enough, publicpressure mounted that Billboard,
following the lead of RCARecords, dropped the term quote
race music as anall-encompassing categorization.
Shortly thereafter, billboardbegan to use another term to
(12:24):
describe the still-evolvingamalgamation of genres rhythm
and blues, segregation now,segregation tomorrow and
segregation forever.
Notorious dirtbag GeorgeWallace.
Whether you use the term, quoterace music or rhythm and blues
(12:47):
segregation, specifically thedesire to segregate music, was
still very much ingrained in the1950s American psyche.
In addition to segregated buses,schools, facilities, popular
culture itself was segregatedPurposefully, methodically,
intentionally.
Here's an example.
(13:08):
Let's backtrack a bit to 1920s.
America Recording equipment,still in its infancy, was bulky,
expensive and almost entirelyowned by white-owned record
labels.
Consequently, black artistsprimarily worked behind the
scenes, writing many of therecorded hits, but receiving
little money and even lesscredit for their contributions.
(13:31):
This sliding would havecontinued on If these same
record labels didn't smell outsome potential profit In the
early 20s, when blues singerMandy Smith records songs meant
to appeal to a white audience.
The record labels had releasedtracks with marketing meant to
downplay her race.
(13:52):
Something unexpected happened.
When these recordings werereleased and Black audiences
heard for the first time thatthey could buy a recording of a
Black performer, they rushed tothe stores Buying right away
(14:14):
75,000 copies of Mandy'srecordings.
So now, rather than ignore thislarge and eager market, as
record execs had been doing,they would release recordings of
Black artists and sell them tothe Black population with
separate marketing.
This made sense to them for tworeasons.
(14:34):
One, record companies werelosing market share with the
introduction of radio and two,it was at the time easier to
exploit and underpay Blackartists than white ones.
Most songs written by them hadnever been published.
Record execs could easilysnatch up and forgo recording
(14:55):
rights and recordings and theythought you know, we already
control recording anddistribution.
We might as well maximize ourprofits in both pop, white music
and the now called R&B market.
Importantly, let's keep this inmind Black artists were still
intentionally prevented fromcompeting in white markets, so
(15:20):
pop music would remain in thetight control of white recording
artists and executives.
They didn't want me to be in thewhite guy's way.
I felt I was pushed into arhythm and blues corner to keep
out of rockers way, becausethat's where the money is.
When Tutti Frutti came out andthey needed a rock star to block
(15:40):
me out of white kids' homesbecause I was a hero to white
kids, the white kids would havePat Boone up on the dresser and
me in the drawer because theyliked my version better.
But the families didn't want mebecause of the image that I was
projecting.
Little Richard.
Here, my friends, we come to theapex of our question today.
(16:04):
What is rock and roll?
Let's go back now again to the1950s, when two separate music
markets now exist One cateredtowards white Americans, one
very less resourced marketcatered towards Black Americans.
In time, yet another idea popsup in the heads of these
(16:26):
relentless record executives.
The thought was this Ratherthan spend the time and the
resources to promote originalBlack artists, why don't we make
more money by re-recordingblack songs with established
white groups and spend the moneymarketing them to a larger
white audience?
One thing kept them from doingthis they just needed a face, an
(16:52):
icon that they could sell towhite America.
One person who understood thisearly on was Sam Phillips,
future founder at Sun Records.
We're walking back now to SunRecords.
(17:17):
The tour starts soon.
Not sure what to expect andprepping for this, the deeper I
went, the more expansive of asubject it became.
So right now, I'm not entirelyconvinced that a singular place
can claim the title ofbirthplace of rock and roll.
You've got Chuck Berry, littleRichard, fats Domino, sister
(17:39):
Rosetta Tharpe.
All this history, all thiscontext.
It's hard for me to imaginethat Sun Records eclipses them
all.
But look, I'm open, I've notbeen there yet.
I don't know what the story is,the role that it played in the
history of rock and roll.
Here's what I'll ask now,though If it, as I kind of
expect, didn't play anall-encompassing role in the
(18:04):
birth of rock and roll, what, ifanything, did it contribute to
the genre that we now call rockand roll?
I had a notion about Memphisand its potential in music.
Never has there been a greatersymphony in the world than the
symphony of the soul,impoverished but blessed with
hardship, and then telling aboutit in a song.
Anybody that has missed theprofound statements of black
(18:28):
music, southern white music, Ifeel sorry for them.
I was lucky enough to bebrought to this place and to
these people and to theseexperiences.
Sam Phillips.
Sam Phillips is what we wouldcall an industry disruptor.
The pop sound in 1950 wassmooth and harmonic, and by pop
(18:49):
I mean what was distributed towhite audiences.
The driving rhythms of jump,blues and R&B were not mainstay
for white America.
Still, as in any population,some go against the grain.
Phillips, born in rural Alabamain 1923, preferred music that
sounded alive, authentic, real,and so, when he moves to Memphis
(19:16):
in 1945, the sounds and thesights of the blues music hub
were perfect fit During thisearly period in Phillips' life.
With some experience in radioand recording, phillips starts a
recording service and recordsthe likes of Blues Legends, bb
King and Howlin' Wolf.
But with one caveat he recordsfor other record labels.
(19:39):
With one caveat he records forother record labels.
Phillips thought that inlicensing with other labels
after recording he couldconcentrate on the music.
He was never a practical manand despised the logistics of
airplay distribution and allthat.
But it turns out a flatrecording fee in exchange for
all rights and publishing inperpetuity wasn't exactly
(20:02):
sustainable.
What many consider to be thefirst rock song, rocket 88 by
Johnny Brenton and his DeltaCats, aka Ike Turner's Kings of
Rhythm, came from this period ofrecording.
The story goes like this Turnerand his band were on their way
to a recording session withPhillips when the band's amp got
(20:24):
damaged.
Turner later shoves paperinside the amp to lessen the
problem and this actually endedup providing a more distinct
sound.
When guitarist Willie Kessertplays, the sound from the
damaged amp is likely to be oneof the first examples of guitar
distortion that, plus the upbeatR&B driving rhythm, make it
(20:47):
stand out as a contender for oneof the first rock and roll
songs.
But this is just an example ofthe sound that Phillips sought
after Unpolished and raw.
Rocket 88 is an example of oneof the songs that once recorded
belonged to somebody else.
In this case it belonged toChess Records out of Chicago,
(21:11):
out of Phillips' hands entirely.
He simply got tired of it.
Enter Sun Records.
Phillips, upon opening SunRecords in 1952, recorded music
that he enjoyed, music thatmajor record companies there
were six at the time deemed kindof unprofitable, which is code
(21:34):
for blues and R&B.
Generally, phillips recordedmusic no one else would touch,
recording it in his own way,releasing it on his own label.
As such, son was basicallydesigned as a walk-in business.
If you had a song to sing, comeon in and it will be recorded.
Some came on their own, otherswere referred to by other
(21:57):
artists, but in time Phillipswould be the first to record the
likes of Ike Turner, howlin'Wolf, the Prisoners, bb King,
roy Orbinson, jerry Lee Lewis,carl Perkins, johnny Cash and a
19-year-old Memphis native whowould walk into Sun Records to
record a love song.
Elvis was what they werelooking for.
(22:18):
To get that music notnecessarily accepted, because it
already had been accepted, butpermissible for the white kids
to listen to, and openly.
Ruth Brown.
Although Phillips didn't seekout as actively as other record
executives the quickest way to asmash hit to find a smash
(22:39):
artist, he was well aware of theidea that if he could find a
white face that could singhistorically black music halfway
decently and convincingly, thepotential was huge.
He knew that white teenagers,in Memphis specifically, were
listening to R&B and hesuspected this to be true in
(23:02):
other parts of the country aswell.
Enter Elvis Presley.
It's mid-July 1953, and a youngElvis walks into Sun Records
and pays $3.98 to record andkeep two songs.
(23:23):
Upon arriving, miriam Kiesker,the tireless receptionist at the
skeleton crew that was SunRecords, manned the studio alone
.
Phillips was away from thestudio at the time, so she
records Elvis singing the songis my Happiness by the Ink Spots
(23:54):
and, rather upon hearing thisthan make the traditional and
expected, brings Elvis back intothe studio.
Elvis starts singing an old R&Btune and the rest is history.
In time, as we all know, elvis'sfame skyrockets.
Son produces hits like MysteryTrain, blue, suede Shoes, folsom
(24:15):
, prison Blues, I Walk the Line,ooby Dooby, a whole lot of
shaking going on, great balls offire.
I could keep going, butPhillips, in short, becomes the
talk of the industry.
With the success of Elvis andothers, largely brought to light
by Phillips and Sun Records,rhythm and Blues is now proven
(24:37):
to be able to be captured andrepackaged to a white audience,
and this fundamentallytransforms the nature of quote
pop music Just got done with thetour.
I'm recording this across thestreet, looking now at the
corner building with the iconicyellow guitar jutting outward.
(25:00):
Let me describe what the tourkind of entails.
So you go in the entrance, waitwith other people who are also
going to be going on the tour.
Then you go upstairs and whileyou're up there you learn a lot
about BB King, helen Wolfe, thePrisoners Carl Perkins, johnny
Cash, elvis, sam Phillipsobviously, the Prisoners Carl
Perkins, johnny Cash, elvis, samPhillips, obviously and they
(25:21):
play songs that were recorded inthe room below where you're
learning all this.
They give you background beforeyou go to the actual recording
booth, which is nice, becausewhen you get to the studio you
have context, you haveappreciation for it.
Do I think they lionized SamPhillips a bit too much?
(25:43):
I mean probably, yeah, but it'shard in a 40-minute tour to
really get into the thick ofeverything.
I could say the same thingabout a podcast.
But one question I still haveafter the tour is this they did
a good job talking about why SunRecords itself was important,
(26:05):
but I still have questions aboutthe larger impact that Sun
Records had on rock and roll ingeneral.
What did it contribute?
Before Elvis, there remained animpenetrable wall between pop
and rhythm and blues,historically white and
historically black music, and soPhillips, in signing Elvis, who
(26:28):
channeled R&B, began to breakdown this wall.
It gave white consumerspermission to openly like the
R&B sound because it was a whiteperson that was singing it.
Still, as has been the caseover and over again, the need to
separate, to segregate,presents itself.
(26:49):
The rise of Bill Haley, carlPerkins, elvis, etc.
Presents to record executivesagain the need to further
differentiate white artists fromblack artists who, keep in mind
, are both singing the samemusic, both singing R&B.
Let's face it, rock and roll isbigger than all of us.
(27:12):
Alan Freed, an opportunity todifferentiate white artists and
black artists singing the samestyle of music presents itself.
In Cincinnati, ohio, by radiohost Alan Freed, freed creates
the Moon Dog Show featuringrhythm and blues music and, to
(27:34):
his credit, actually, he was oneof the first to help popularize
R&B, particularly among thewhite public who hadn't yet been
exposed to R&B music.
That was not re-recorded bywhite artists.
But after moving his show toNew York, a blind percussionist
already possessed the nameMoondog, so Freed could no
(27:57):
longer call his show the MoondogShow.
With now no defined name, freedchooses to rebrand the Moondog
Show to the Rock and Roll Show,with the music being played
rhythm and blues remaining thesame.
(28:23):
The term rock and roll, funnilyenough, had been around for a
while.
Take the 1939 bluesman JoeTurner and Pete Johnston's
lyrics in Cherry Red Take mepretty, mama, chuck me in your
big brass bed and rock me, mama,till my face turns.
Cherry red, rockin' and rollin'as terms sometimes had a sexual
(28:43):
undertone to it, but most oftenit referred to a good party, a
good time, just what Rhythmblues had been doing for years.
And Freed himself freelyinterchanged the terms rhythm
and blues and rock and rollbecause he believed rightfully
that they represented the samemusic.
(29:03):
But in this new term the musicindustry saw a chance to brand
rising stars like Elvis, likeBill Haley, as their own thing.
They would no longer be lateadapters of an already
established music.
They were now pioneers of rockand roll.
Everybody started calling mymusic rock and roll, but it
(29:26):
wasn't anything but the samerhythm and blues I'd been
playing down in New Orleans.
That's Domino, behind SunRecords.
To be in the room where so manyicons recorded, where so much
(29:50):
history was made, was special.
But what's truly unique aboutvisiting Sun Records and why I
think anyone passing throughshould is that it opens the door
to so much more.
It's a small part, it's a verysmall part of a much larger
story, and to visit is to startto realize that.
(30:12):
So that's what I think we'regoing to roll out.
We're heading to Georgia today,definitely hope to be coming
back to Memphis.
I'd love to spend a night nearBeale Street and experience the
music there.
So, all right, we'll see you.
From this, I think we can allagree that the history of rock
(30:35):
and roll is not the history ofSun Records, not even close.
Sun Records is, instead ofturning point in the
classification and marketing ofa music that had been around for
years and years Rhythm andblues.
The term rock and roll itselfstarted as a misnomer, a fresh
(30:59):
coat of paint over an alreadyestablished tradition of black
artists pushing and refininggenre and look, rock stars, from
the Stones to the Beatles tothe who.
Zeppelin will all tell you that.
Don't believe me, let's get abrief rapid fire in.
Muddy Waters was the focus,perhaps, of all the good things
(31:19):
about that Chicago blues era.
He was a big influence for me.
Mick Jagger, it still is themost important music in my life
today, the music of Muddy Waters, eric Clapton, gospel you can't
forget gospel.
Tom Petty, little RichardsRecords are great.
They still sound great.
They always will.
Joe Strummer of Clash.
(31:40):
Look at tribute covers as wellNirvana's cover of their
favorite artist, lead Bellies,where Did you Sleep Last Night?
Led Zeppelin's cover of SonnyBoy Artist Lead Bellies, where
Did you Sleep Last Night?
Led Zeppelin's cover of SonnyBoy.
Williamson's Bring it On Home.
Springsteen talks all the timeabout the influence of Chuck
Berry on his music.
Look for the soul of JamesBrown in Michael Jackson.
(32:01):
The point is this Rock and rollis just a piece of a massive,
massive story.
To overlook the raciallycharged history of rock, the
building blocks of its creationand the real motives for the
term itself is just to tell partof the tale.
(32:23):
It's noah here.
Thank you for listening.
I genuinely, genuinelyappreciate your time.
Uh, the more I looked into thistopic, the more I felt I had to
(32:47):
spend time understanding itdeeply.
And the deeper I went, the moreI began to appreciate the
really complex, fascinatinghistory of rhythm and blues,
later rock and roll.
I'd be remissed and rathermissing the point of this
episode if I didn't credit thepublic domain recordings I used
during today's episode.
(33:08):
John said he saw a number byArizona Drake's, 1926, jimmy
Blythe, chicago Stomp, 1924, andMammy Smith Crazy Blues, 1920.
Links to all of these andadditional recordings, videos,
books, everything that I usedare found in this week's truly
(33:30):
massive show notes.
I've also got a greatrecommendation for everyone.
There's a 10-part series on thehistory of rock and roll on
YouTube, produced by QuincyJones.
That's a great starting pointin getting into this stuff.
I'll post something about that.
Tom Petty, the who, ozzyOsbourne, kiss, ruth Brown, tina
(33:50):
Turner, aerosmith, springsteenthe guests on this program are
endless and they all, it seems,have a deep respect and
knowledge really about the blues, about R&B, the history of rock
and roll, so it's fascinating.
I'll post that.
I might be talking a little moreabout Sun Records specifically.
I might be talking a littlemore about Sun Records
(34:10):
specifically more candidly in afuture Van Life Diaries.
But until then, I really,really hope I did my work and
did some justice to the historyof rock and roll.
If you appreciate the effortthat me and Noodles put into
episodes like this, a greatgreat way to help us continue to
(34:30):
do this, continue to grow, isto take a second to rate
wherever you're listening nowReally really helps the show.
I appreciate you.
So thank you again.
Be good to each other.
Where to next?
Backroad Odyssey.
Cruising down the street.
I wonder where this road wouldlead so many possibilities.
Care to share what you think.
Oh, noodle Dolls, what do yousee?
Back Road, odyssey road odyssey.
(00:28):
Sun records in memphis,tennessee, claims to be the
birthplace of rock and roll.
Beneath the shadow of graceland, and within earshot of the
blues of beale street, the smalllabel hosted musical greats
like helen wolf, bb king, jerryKing, jerry Lee Lewis, johnny
Adams, carl Perkins, johnny Cashand a young Elvis Presley.
(00:50):
But what does it mean to be thebirthplace of rock and roll?
Can we accept such a claimwithout first diving deep into
the murky depths of Americanmusical history?
My dog Noodles and I head toMemphis to find out.
We just spent the morning inMemphis Beautiful day, blue
(01:15):
skies.
We're both in great moods.
My dog Noodles and I arewalking around the Edge
neighborhood now, which connectsdowntown to Midtown, and this
is the area where the reportedbirthplace of rock and roll is
Sun Records.
We'll be touring Sun Records injust a little bit, but for now
we've got some time to kill.
So I figured let's walk to alocation that's just about as
(01:39):
important to our story today asanything.
We're going to Beale street.
It's about a 20 minute walkfrom Sun Records and it's deeply
, deeply tied to the blues and,by extension, the history of
rock and roll.
Wc, handy, albert King, so manyothers helped popularize blues
on that very street, and so whenblues lover and founder of Sun
(02:01):
Records, sam Phillips, moves toMemphis in 1945, beale Street's
a real draw right.
You can imagine him walkingdown the something like 15, 16
blocks of live music, reallytaking it all in.
Why am I bringing this up?
Aren't we supposed to betalking about rock and roll?
Here's a point I want to makeright away.
We need to keep this in mindgoing forward.
(02:22):
The history of rock and roll isnot the story of one genre of
music and it's most definitelynot going to be traced to one
white future label owner walkingdown Beale Street in 1945.
The history of rock and roll isas rich and complex as just
about anything.
(02:43):
That's why, today, we can'tsimply tell the story of the
quote birthplace of rock androll, sun Records.
To do this would ignore so muchcontext, so much history.
Come here, bud.
All right, let's get into it.
Here's our question, then Notan easy one to start with, my
friends.
What is rock and roll?
(03:04):
Rock and roll has no beginningand no end, for it is the very
pulse of life itself.
Larry Williams, is this true?
Does rock and roll really haveno definitive beginning, no
traceable origin, or can what wecall rock and roll today be
(03:27):
traced back to a singular person, place or time?
The simple answer is peoplehave tried to, but it's hard to
claim a singular person createdwhat we call rock and roll today
or insist a charismatic risingidol came down from the mountain
to reveal rock and roll to themasses will never, and hasn't
(03:49):
ever been the full story.
In reality, the seeds of rockand roll were planted well over
a century ago.
Blues is a tonic for whateverails you.
I could play the blues and thennot be blue anymore.
Bb King.
(04:12):
Rock and Roll's first andprobably most direct influence
is the blues, a style of musicborn from the truly horrid
conditions suffered by thoseenslaved in the Deep South.
While being forced to workunder the blaring southern sun,
slaves would sing, willingthemselves to get through each
day.
These songs focused on loss, ondeep, deep injustice, and were
(04:38):
from the beginning meant toserve as a tonic for pain, but
blues didn't end with theabolition of slavery.
Serve as a tonic for pain, butblues didn't end with the
abolition of slavery.
The style, with its emotivelyrics, colon responses, often
improvised words and a slightlowering of the pitch, created
an eerily beautiful way ofacknowledging the pain of both
(04:58):
the present and the past.
It was in direct contrast withthe bright, ringing tones of
white American musicaltraditions, classical American
folk, etc.
Still, blues expanded, adaptedand thrived From 1910 to around
1930,.
The movement of Black Americansacross the nation from the Deep
(05:21):
South brought the constantlydeveloping blues to bustling
cities around the nation.
And as this spreading of theblues quickened, so did its
tempo.
Sub-styles emerged, jump blues,west Coast, texas, all inching
towards something new.
Blues, regardless of anymodification, always expressed
(05:45):
and expresses the kind ofgallows, humor and
acknowledgement of havingoutlived such terrible and
unjust conditions.
There is a sound that comesfrom gospel, that doesn't come
from anything else.
It is a sound of peace, it is asound of I'm going to make it
through this, yolanda Adams.
(06:07):
Like the blues, the roots ofgospel can be traced back to the
19th century, when Blackcommunities around the South
began to develop individualizedexpressions of religious music
that reflected their experiences.
With its powerful vocals,passionate harmonies and deep
(06:29):
emotional intensity, the stylequickly became a staple of Black
churches throughout the Southand beyond.
While blues tended to settleinto the pain and the deep
horror of the black experiencein America, gospel both
(06:50):
acknowledged the bad whileleaving some room and expressing
some hope for the good and forthe future.
These two styles, blues andgospel, influenced and melded
with each other as timeprogressed.
Both are fundamental inunderstanding the creation of
(07:11):
what we know as rock and roll.
Without blues, without gospel,we might just be singing sea
shanties at a Springsteenconcert.
I'm on Beale Street now.
It's maybe three in theafternoon, not much going on,
just cool to be here.
You know what's interesting?
I was thinking this on the walkover.
(07:32):
It's so easy to label someoneas the first to ever do
something With anything, butspecifically with music.
Think about it.
You don't have Michael Jackson,really, without James Brown,
eric Clapton without muddywaters, Springsteen uh, the
stones without Chuck Berry, andeven Chuck Berry without the
(07:56):
trailblazer sister Rosetta Tharpjust shreds on a guitar.
She's so cool.
Um, I'll post a video in theshow notes.
But my point is this it's easyto attribute anything's
existence to one person, but themore you look into things, the
(08:16):
more interconnected everythingbecomes.
So, before we tour thebirthplace of rock and roll, sun
Records.
It's essential.
It's essential that we dive asdeep as we can into the history.
It used to be called boogiewoogie, it used to be called
blues.
It used to be called rhythm andblues.
It's called rock.
(08:37):
Now Chuck Berry, as bluesentered the collective American
(09:05):
line, largely played on thepiano, bluesy vocals, but above
all else, a driving rhythmintentionally designed to get
people moving.
Boogie Woogie was once afeature in logging and railroad
camps throughout the South, butslowly moved to larger cities,
attracting more and more crowdseager for an upbeat tune, a
(09:29):
proper smash, as it were.
You're talking about a musicthat was bred from Africa to the
black church and over to gospel, which turned into blues and
jazz and country music.
(09:49):
And that's how it ought to be.
That's how it started QuincyJones by the 1940s, electric
guitars, brass instruments,booming drums, accompanied
greats like T-Bone Walker andJimmy Rushing, both using blends
of gospel, blues andboogie-woogie.
And this blend of genres andsub-genres led to a certain
(10:11):
amount of fluidity.
Your blues songs could have asplash of gospel, some
boogie-woogie, the newly coinedfast-jump blues.
But let's stop for a second andmeet two primary drivers in the
eventual creation of the termrock and roll, one, record
(10:32):
companies and two, the need toclassify.
Let's explain this new freedom,this new blending of gospel
blues, boogie, woogie, jump,jazz, harlem, stride, ragtime I
could keep going Demanded sometype of classification and
segregated America.
(10:54):
What was deemed quote pop music,that being songs and artists
marketed to white America, wasnot and could not, to record
executives and culturalunderstandings, be the same
music pioneered by Black artistsfrom Chicago to Philadelphia
and beyond.
So, consequently, this new andever-evolving style performed
(11:18):
and perfected by Black artists,was wrapped up in the dismissive
, blanket term used by industryexecutives at the time quote
race music.
And race music would bemarketed to listen by and sold
directly to the black population.
Rhythm and blues used to becalled race music.
(11:41):
This music was going on foryears, but nobody paid any
attention to it.
Ray Charles, well, this meltingpot of musical styles thrived.
Many, rightfully so, found thegrouping of all these artists,
all these songs, all thesedifferent genres into one
(12:01):
singular category, that of quoterace music, deeply dismissive.
Eventually enough, publicpressure mounted that Billboard,
following the lead of RCARecords, dropped the term quote
race music as anall-encompassing categorization.
Shortly thereafter, billboardbegan to use another term to
(12:24):
describe the still-evolvingamalgamation of genres rhythm
and blues, segregation now,segregation tomorrow and
segregation forever.
Notorious dirtbag GeorgeWallace.
Whether you use the term, quoterace music or rhythm and blues
(12:47):
segregation, specifically thedesire to segregate music, was
still very much ingrained in the1950s American psyche.
In addition to segregated buses,schools, facilities, popular
culture itself was segregatedPurposefully, methodically,
intentionally.
Here's an example.
(13:08):
Let's backtrack a bit to 1920s.
America Recording equipment,still in its infancy, was bulky,
expensive and almost entirelyowned by white-owned record
labels.
Consequently, black artistsprimarily worked behind the
scenes, writing many of therecorded hits, but receiving
little money and even lesscredit for their contributions.
(13:31):
This sliding would havecontinued on If these same
record labels didn't smell outsome potential profit In the
early 20s, when blues singerMandy Smith records songs meant
to appeal to a white audience.
The record labels had releasedtracks with marketing meant to
downplay her race.
(13:52):
Something unexpected happened.
When these recordings werereleased and Black audiences
heard for the first time thatthey could buy a recording of a
Black performer, they rushed tothe stores Buying right away
(14:14):
75,000 copies of Mandy'srecordings.
So now, rather than ignore thislarge and eager market, as
record execs had been doing,they would release recordings of
Black artists and sell them tothe Black population with
separate marketing.
This made sense to them for tworeasons.
(14:34):
One, record companies werelosing market share with the
introduction of radio and two,it was at the time easier to
exploit and underpay Blackartists than white ones.
Most songs written by them hadnever been published.
Record execs could easilysnatch up and forgo recording
(14:55):
rights and recordings and theythought you know, we already
control recording anddistribution.
We might as well maximize ourprofits in both pop, white music
and the now called R&B market.
Importantly, let's keep this inmind Black artists were still
intentionally prevented fromcompeting in white markets, so
(15:20):
pop music would remain in thetight control of white recording
artists and executives.
They didn't want me to be in thewhite guy's way.
I felt I was pushed into arhythm and blues corner to keep
out of rockers way, becausethat's where the money is.
When Tutti Frutti came out andthey needed a rock star to block
(15:40):
me out of white kids' homesbecause I was a hero to white
kids, the white kids would havePat Boone up on the dresser and
me in the drawer because theyliked my version better.
But the families didn't want mebecause of the image that I was
projecting.
Little Richard.
Here, my friends, we come to theapex of our question today.
(16:04):
What is rock and roll?
Let's go back now again to the1950s, when two separate music
markets now exist One cateredtowards white Americans, one
very less resourced marketcatered towards Black Americans.
In time, yet another idea popsup in the heads of these
(16:26):
relentless record executives.
The thought was this Ratherthan spend the time and the
resources to promote originalBlack artists, why don't we make
more money by re-recordingblack songs with established
white groups and spend the moneymarketing them to a larger
white audience?
One thing kept them from doingthis they just needed a face, an
(16:52):
icon that they could sell towhite America.
One person who understood thisearly on was Sam Phillips,
future founder at Sun Records.
We're walking back now to SunRecords.
(17:17):
The tour starts soon.
Not sure what to expect andprepping for this, the deeper I
went, the more expansive of asubject it became.
So right now, I'm not entirelyconvinced that a singular place
can claim the title ofbirthplace of rock and roll.
You've got Chuck Berry, littleRichard, fats Domino, sister
(17:39):
Rosetta Tharpe.
All this history, all thiscontext.
It's hard for me to imaginethat Sun Records eclipses them
all.
But look, I'm open, I've notbeen there yet.
I don't know what the story is,the role that it played in the
history of rock and roll.
Here's what I'll ask now,though If it, as I kind of
expect, didn't play anall-encompassing role in the
(18:04):
birth of rock and roll, what, ifanything, did it contribute to
the genre that we now call rockand roll?
I had a notion about Memphisand its potential in music.
Never has there been a greatersymphony in the world than the
symphony of the soul,impoverished but blessed with
hardship, and then telling aboutit in a song.
Anybody that has missed theprofound statements of black
(18:28):
music, southern white music, Ifeel sorry for them.
I was lucky enough to bebrought to this place and to
these people and to theseexperiences.
Sam Phillips.
Sam Phillips is what we wouldcall an industry disruptor.
The pop sound in 1950 wassmooth and harmonic, and by pop
(18:49):
I mean what was distributed towhite audiences.
The driving rhythms of jump,blues and R&B were not mainstay
for white America.
Still, as in any population,some go against the grain.
Phillips, born in rural Alabamain 1923, preferred music that
sounded alive, authentic, real,and so, when he moves to Memphis
(19:16):
in 1945, the sounds and thesights of the blues music hub
were perfect fit During thisearly period in Phillips' life.
With some experience in radioand recording, phillips starts a
recording service and recordsthe likes of Blues Legends, bb
King and Howlin' Wolf.
But with one caveat he recordsfor other record labels.
(19:39):
With one caveat he records forother record labels.
Phillips thought that inlicensing with other labels
after recording he couldconcentrate on the music.
He was never a practical manand despised the logistics of
airplay distribution and allthat.
But it turns out a flatrecording fee in exchange for
all rights and publishing inperpetuity wasn't exactly
(20:02):
sustainable.
What many consider to be thefirst rock song, rocket 88 by
Johnny Brenton and his DeltaCats, aka Ike Turner's Kings of
Rhythm, came from this period ofrecording.
The story goes like this Turnerand his band were on their way
to a recording session withPhillips when the band's amp got
(20:24):
damaged.
Turner later shoves paperinside the amp to lessen the
problem and this actually endedup providing a more distinct
sound.
When guitarist Willie Kessertplays, the sound from the
damaged amp is likely to be oneof the first examples of guitar
distortion that, plus the upbeatR&B driving rhythm, make it
(20:47):
stand out as a contender for oneof the first rock and roll
songs.
But this is just an example ofthe sound that Phillips sought
after Unpolished and raw.
Rocket 88 is an example of oneof the songs that once recorded
belonged to somebody else.
In this case it belonged toChess Records out of Chicago,
(21:11):
out of Phillips' hands entirely.
He simply got tired of it.
Enter Sun Records.
Phillips, upon opening SunRecords in 1952, recorded music
that he enjoyed, music thatmajor record companies there
were six at the time deemed kindof unprofitable, which is code
(21:34):
for blues and R&B.
Generally, phillips recordedmusic no one else would touch,
recording it in his own way,releasing it on his own label.
As such, son was basicallydesigned as a walk-in business.
If you had a song to sing, comeon in and it will be recorded.
Some came on their own, otherswere referred to by other
(21:57):
artists, but in time Phillipswould be the first to record the
likes of Ike Turner, howlin'Wolf, the Prisoners, bb King,
roy Orbinson, jerry Lee Lewis,carl Perkins, johnny Cash and a
19-year-old Memphis native whowould walk into Sun Records to
record a love song.
Elvis was what they werelooking for.
(22:18):
To get that music notnecessarily accepted, because it
already had been accepted, butpermissible for the white kids
to listen to, and openly.
Ruth Brown.
Although Phillips didn't seekout as actively as other record
executives the quickest way to asmash hit to find a smash
(22:39):
artist, he was well aware of theidea that if he could find a
white face that could singhistorically black music halfway
decently and convincingly, thepotential was huge.
He knew that white teenagers,in Memphis specifically, were
listening to R&B and hesuspected this to be true in
(23:02):
other parts of the country aswell.
Enter Elvis Presley.
It's mid-July 1953, and a youngElvis walks into Sun Records
and pays $3.98 to record andkeep two songs.
(23:23):
Upon arriving, miriam Kiesker,the tireless receptionist at the
skeleton crew that was SunRecords, manned the studio alone
.
Phillips was away from thestudio at the time, so she
records Elvis singing the songis my Happiness by the Ink Spots
(23:54):
and, rather upon hearing thisthan make the traditional and
expected, brings Elvis back intothe studio.
Elvis starts singing an old R&Btune and the rest is history.
In time, as we all know, elvis'sfame skyrockets.
Son produces hits like MysteryTrain, blue, suede Shoes, folsom
(24:15):
, prison Blues, I Walk the Line,ooby Dooby, a whole lot of
shaking going on, great balls offire.
I could keep going, butPhillips, in short, becomes the
talk of the industry.
With the success of Elvis andothers, largely brought to light
by Phillips and Sun Records,rhythm and Blues is now proven
(24:37):
to be able to be captured andrepackaged to a white audience,
and this fundamentallytransforms the nature of quote
pop music Just got done with thetour.
I'm recording this across thestreet, looking now at the
corner building with the iconicyellow guitar jutting outward.
(25:00):
Let me describe what the tourkind of entails.
So you go in the entrance, waitwith other people who are also
going to be going on the tour.
Then you go upstairs and whileyou're up there you learn a lot
about BB King, helen Wolfe, thePrisoners Carl Perkins, johnny
Cash, elvis, sam Phillipsobviously, the Prisoners Carl
Perkins, johnny Cash, elvis, samPhillips, obviously and they
(25:21):
play songs that were recorded inthe room below where you're
learning all this.
They give you background beforeyou go to the actual recording
booth, which is nice, becausewhen you get to the studio you
have context, you haveappreciation for it.
Do I think they lionized SamPhillips a bit too much?
(25:43):
I mean probably, yeah, but it'shard in a 40-minute tour to
really get into the thick ofeverything.
I could say the same thingabout a podcast.
But one question I still haveafter the tour is this they did
a good job talking about why SunRecords itself was important,
(26:05):
but I still have questions aboutthe larger impact that Sun
Records had on rock and roll ingeneral.
What did it contribute?
Before Elvis, there remained animpenetrable wall between pop
and rhythm and blues,historically white and
historically black music, and soPhillips, in signing Elvis, who
(26:28):
channeled R&B, began to breakdown this wall.
It gave white consumerspermission to openly like the
R&B sound because it was a whiteperson that was singing it.
Still, as has been the caseover and over again, the need to
separate, to segregate,presents itself.
(26:49):
The rise of Bill Haley, carlPerkins, elvis, etc.
Presents to record executivesagain the need to further
differentiate white artists fromblack artists who, keep in mind
, are both singing the samemusic, both singing R&B.
Let's face it, rock and roll isbigger than all of us.
(27:12):
Alan Freed, an opportunity todifferentiate white artists and
black artists singing the samestyle of music presents itself.
In Cincinnati, ohio, by radiohost Alan Freed, freed creates
the Moon Dog Show featuringrhythm and blues music and, to
(27:34):
his credit, actually, he was oneof the first to help popularize
R&B, particularly among thewhite public who hadn't yet been
exposed to R&B music.
That was not re-recorded bywhite artists.
But after moving his show toNew York, a blind percussionist
already possessed the nameMoondog, so Freed could no
(27:57):
longer call his show the MoondogShow.
With now no defined name, freedchooses to rebrand the Moondog
Show to the Rock and Roll Show,with the music being played
rhythm and blues remaining thesame.
(28:23):
The term rock and roll, funnilyenough, had been around for a
while.
Take the 1939 bluesman JoeTurner and Pete Johnston's
lyrics in Cherry Red Take mepretty, mama, chuck me in your
big brass bed and rock me, mama,till my face turns.
Cherry red, rockin' and rollin'as terms sometimes had a sexual
(28:43):
undertone to it, but most oftenit referred to a good party, a
good time, just what Rhythmblues had been doing for years.
And Freed himself freelyinterchanged the terms rhythm
and blues and rock and rollbecause he believed rightfully
that they represented the samemusic.
(29:03):
But in this new term the musicindustry saw a chance to brand
rising stars like Elvis, likeBill Haley, as their own thing.
They would no longer be lateadapters of an already
established music.
They were now pioneers of rockand roll.
Everybody started calling mymusic rock and roll, but it
(29:26):
wasn't anything but the samerhythm and blues I'd been
playing down in New Orleans.
That's Domino, behind SunRecords.
To be in the room where so manyicons recorded, where so much
(29:50):
history was made, was special.
But what's truly unique aboutvisiting Sun Records and why I
think anyone passing throughshould is that it opens the door
to so much more.
It's a small part, it's a verysmall part of a much larger
story, and to visit is to startto realize that.
(30:12):
So that's what I think we'regoing to roll out.
We're heading to Georgia today,definitely hope to be coming
back to Memphis.
I'd love to spend a night nearBeale Street and experience the
music there.
So, all right, we'll see you.
From this, I think we can allagree that the history of rock
(30:35):
and roll is not the history ofSun Records, not even close.
Sun Records is, instead ofturning point in the
classification and marketing ofa music that had been around for
years and years Rhythm andblues.
The term rock and roll itselfstarted as a misnomer, a fresh
(30:59):
coat of paint over an alreadyestablished tradition of black
artists pushing and refininggenre and look, rock stars, from
the Stones to the Beatles tothe who.
Zeppelin will all tell you that.
Don't believe me, let's get abrief rapid fire in.
Muddy Waters was the focus,perhaps, of all the good things
(31:19):
about that Chicago blues era.
He was a big influence for me.
Mick Jagger, it still is themost important music in my life
today, the music of Muddy Waters, eric Clapton, gospel you can't
forget gospel.
Tom Petty, little RichardsRecords are great.
They still sound great.
They always will.
Joe Strummer of Clash.
(31:40):
Look at tribute covers as wellNirvana's cover of their
favorite artist, lead Bellies,where Did you Sleep Last Night?
Led Zeppelin's cover of SonnyBoy Artist Lead Bellies, where
Did you Sleep Last Night?
Led Zeppelin's cover of SonnyBoy.
Williamson's Bring it On Home.
Springsteen talks all the timeabout the influence of Chuck
Berry on his music.
Look for the soul of JamesBrown in Michael Jackson.
(32:01):
The point is this Rock and rollis just a piece of a massive,
massive story.
To overlook the raciallycharged history of rock, the
building blocks of its creationand the real motives for the
term itself is just to tell partof the tale.
(32:23):
It's noah here.
Thank you for listening.
I genuinely, genuinelyappreciate your time.
Uh, the more I looked into thistopic, the more I felt I had to
(32:47):
spend time understanding itdeeply.
And the deeper I went, the moreI began to appreciate the
really complex, fascinatinghistory of rhythm and blues,
later rock and roll.
I'd be remissed and rathermissing the point of this
episode if I didn't credit thepublic domain recordings I used
during today's episode.
(33:08):
John said he saw a number byArizona Drake's, 1926, jimmy
Blythe, chicago Stomp, 1924, andMammy Smith Crazy Blues, 1920.
Links to all of these andadditional recordings, videos,
books, everything that I usedare found in this week's truly
(33:30):
massive show notes.
I've also got a greatrecommendation for everyone.
There's a 10-part series on thehistory of rock and roll on
YouTube, produced by QuincyJones.
That's a great starting pointin getting into this stuff.
I'll post something about that.
Tom Petty, the who, ozzyOsbourne, kiss, ruth Brown, tina
(33:50):
Turner, aerosmith, springsteenthe guests on this program are
endless and they all, it seems,have a deep respect and
knowledge really about the blues, about R&B, the history of rock
and roll, so it's fascinating.
I'll post that.
I might be talking a little moreabout Sun Records specifically.
I might be talking a littlemore about Sun Records
(34:10):
specifically more candidly in afuture Van Life Diaries.
But until then, I really,really hope I did my work and
did some justice to the historyof rock and roll.
If you appreciate the effortthat me and Noodles put into
episodes like this, a greatgreat way to help us continue to
(34:30):
do this, continue to grow, isto take a second to rate
wherever you're listening nowReally really helps the show.
I appreciate you.
So thank you again.
Be good to each other.
Where to next?
Backroad Odyssey.
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