Denise talks with author Joan Livingston about the art and business of writing, how ideas for her novels pop up in the strangest places, and why small towns, people watching, and experience as a newspaper reporter covering rural villages help her create authentic characters -- including private investigator Isabel Long -- and solve mysteries!
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Episode Transcript
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(00:00):
Welcome to Backyard Oasis, a podcast designed by and for older adults living in the beautiful
(00:09):
Pioneer Valley of Western Massachusetts and produced in the tech studios at Greenfield
Community College in Greenfield, Massachusetts. Backyard Oasis reaches out to older adults
who seek knowledge to help them live more thoughtfully, healthily, and happily, who
hope to inspire others with their ideas and who serve their communities in the interest of the
(00:34):
greater good. Hi, I'm Denise Schwartz, your host. You know, we humans, we're such curious creatures.
We have a natural curiosity about things we can't understand. We love puzzles and riddles
and mysterious things. Our curiosity drives us to find reasons for things, drives us to make
(00:56):
connections between seemingly disparate occurrences. We love mysteries. We want to know what is it,
what happened, what does it mean, and why. Now, researcher George Loewenstein suggests that
when we encounter a mystery, our brain detects an inconsistency between what we know and what we
(01:17):
could know. This triggers an urge to seek answers. Now, mystery books tap into this desire to find
an answer to a puzzle. What happened? Why did someone do what he or she did? And who did it?
Neuroscience tells us that when we encounter something puzzling or unexpected, our good old
dopamine pathways, which as we all know are responsible for feelings of pleasure and motivation,
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they activate. So solving a mystery or uncovering clues releases dopamine. No wonder that the
mystery and thriller genre is the second most popular book genre in the publishing world,
reading mysteries makes us feel good. So we're going to feel good today. We're going to talk
about mysteries because my guest today is Joan Livingston. She's an author of novels for adult
(02:03):
and young readers, including the Isabelle Long mystery series. Joan drew upon her experience
as a journalist, including being editor-in-chief for newspapers in Massachusetts and New Mexico,
to create Isabelle Long, who is a widow who uses the skills she acquired in the newspaper business
to solve cold cases in the fictional hill towns of Western Massachusetts. Hello, Joan.
(02:29):
Well, hello, Denise. Thank you for having me here. I appreciate that. Oh, you're welcome. I've
read your books and I couldn't wait to talk to you about it because I really will talk about
setting later, but I really liked the setting you used for your mysteries. They're called,
for people who don't know, it's the hill towns of Western Massachusetts. And when you have characters
(02:51):
from the hill towns, knowing some of those kinds of people who live in the hill towns,
I think you really nailed it. So that was really fun to read. So anyway, I know that you have
written literary fiction and short stories and poetry, but today we're going to talk really
about your mysteries and then maybe before you have time, some of the other things you've written.
I want to ask you, you know, when I was little, I read all the Nancy Drew books and so after I
(03:15):
finished reading those, I saw everything was mysterious. I saw mysteries everywhere. Do you?
I don't know if I see mysteries everywhere, but I see stories everywhere. And, you know,
actually, it's interesting, the book that I just finished, I had an interesting experience where
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it was the day actually of my mother's funeral. And I was walking around my hometown of Fairhaven
and this man that I didn't know came up to me and said, my mother was killed so many years ago,
and her case was never solved. And I went, I said, what's her name? What's, you know, when this happened?
And my husband was next to me said, how do you attract people like that? And anyways, I looked
(04:01):
it up and it was true. And that became the inspiration for the book I just finished, where
Isabel and her mom are having dinner at a going to have dinner at a restaurant and she's approached
by a man like that. So that fell into my lap. Wow. Can I just I know you want to say something
else right now, but can I ask you about that? Did you talk to the person who came to you at the
(04:24):
cemetery in real life to let that person know you were going to kind of use that as a kernel for
your book? No, it was outside the library. It wasn't at the cemetery. Oh, okay, got it. No, I mean,
I know I didn't say something to him like that, you know, but you know, as my motto in life is
as a writer is I take what I know and I have my way with it. And that's the case of this one.
(04:45):
In the case of the book, the man is homeless. I don't know if this man was homeless or not.
No, no. So I just took his story and, and, you know, set it in the hill towns. So that kind of
just comes to you. I was going to ask you a little bit later in our conversation, you know,
how do you get your ideas? But I guess they come to you. Yes, they do. They do. Well, I'm a big fan
of Stephen King's book on writing where he says writing is telepathic and I sit down at my computer
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and this, you know, what I type into that comes some from somewhere. And that's how I write.
Not everybody writes that way, but it works for me. And I don't know, that's just,
Well, how did Isabelle Long come to you? Well, a friend of mine wrote a mystery and I thought,
I'll try it. You know, I love, I love watching mysteries. I like reading mysteries. And I just
(05:34):
sat down and actually the opening to this book is what I wrote. Oh, it didn't change. It didn't change.
So you sat down and you started to write, this was not your first mystery, though, right? No,
this is my first mystery. Your first mystery. And it came to you. And that's how it was published,
the first page. Yes, that's pretty good. Actually, most of the book, most of my book is pretty much
(05:57):
what is the first draft pretty much sticks. I'll go back and change little things,
but pretty much it's the same. So tell us about Isabelle. Isabelle Long, I wanted to create a
character that wasn't some sweet young thing. I wanted to have a, you know, with the French
Karl-Unfam de Soutenage, you know, and she's coming off a bad year. Her husband died suddenly.
(06:22):
She lost her job as the editor-in-chief of a newspaper. Well, that sounds familiar. Well,
no, that didn't happen to me. But it happened to so many, I guess. But my, and her mother came to
live with her 92 year old mother, which wasn't a bad thing. And she decides to solve a cold case
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in her hometown, in her town of Conwell, where this woman walked home from her family's
general store and was never seen again. And it was also Isabelle's first big story as a
rookie reporter. So she uses the skills she learned as a journalist and applies them to being a PI.
So like, what might that be? What are those skills? Well, you have to know the questions to ask. You
(07:10):
know, you go for, you look for sources, you know, she has one of the things I did as a reporter.
I used to, well, we haven't gone into that, but I used to be a reporter for the Gazette
long time ago in the Hilltowns. And on Fridays, I called it Checking the Traps, which is also the
name of the third book, where on Fridays, I would call different people or visit them,
(07:32):
hey, what's going on, you know, and the tips they would give me would lead to stories.
Wow, I didn't know that. Checking the traps.
Yeah. And that's what Isabelle does. And one thing, plus she takes a job working at the Rooster,
which is the local bar. And that's also a great place to find, you know, tips and info.
I mean, a bar, sure, especially if you're the bartender. Yes, she's the bartender.
(07:55):
But we've skipped ahead a little bit, because I know there is a bartender in your stories.
And I mean, we definitely want to talk about him. Well, I actually, I think we can't talk about that
right now. So you have this great cast of characters. Isabelle's mom has a role in your books.
Mm hmm. She's Maria. She's based on my mom, my late mom, and she comes to live with her,
and she loves to read detective novels and smutty romance novels, and always comes along sometimes
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on her interviews. And she's very astute. So she kind of encourages you when she thinks that this
is going to be okay, or this might be too dangerous, or that's what I got from reading your books,
that mom was sort of like the person you run things by and kind of use her as a, as a, as a,
not a source. What would you say? How does she fit in with that? She's her Watson. She's your Watson.
(08:47):
Was your mom in real life your Watson? No, but she loved reading books. I mean, there's a lot of my
mom in her. But she was very proud that I wrote these books. Oh, that's really good. I love it.
I don't know if my mother would be my Watson. What do you think, Ma? Oh, she said she'd like to be.
Okay, so, you know, there's also in your book this ruggedly handsome hilltown bar owner named Jack.
(09:10):
Jack Smith, yeah. And now I have to say, I found that Isabelle and Jack's repartee was really real
and refreshing. And it wasn't adolescent. It was very adult. So tell us about Jack. Well,
she goes to work at Jack's bar, the rooster. And she's a newcomer. He's a, he's a native, you know,
he's in his family there. And they just strike up. There's, you know, there's some sort of romance
(09:36):
that involved. I don't want to go into too much detail what happens. But it's an adult relationship.
And I'm very fond of Jack. So, you know, I really liked him too. I liked him as a, I thought it
would be fun if he was a real person and be fun to get to know him. So your mysteries take place,
at least in this series, in our hill towns. So for listeners who don't live in this area,
(10:00):
they might want to know that the hill towns are towns and villages that are nestled in the low
hills that kind of roll west from our Connecticut River Valley right here in western Massachusetts.
They roll towards the Berkshires. And the Berkshires are the mountains that are pretty much
close to the New York state border. And the hill towns are in an area that's very different from
the valley in that there are lots of streams and rivers and farms and what we call them mountains,
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but they're really hills and back roads and old buildings because a lot of the hill towns were
settled in the 1700s and 1800s. So there are a lot of old twisty roads and old stone fences. And it
just sets a beautiful tone for any story, but particularly a mystery. Are those some of the
reasons that you chose the hill towns? Well, when we moved there from Boston in 1981, I really became
(10:50):
immersed into the hill towns. And then I became a reporter. I was the Worthington correspondent
being paid by the inch in 1985, I believe. And then eventually became the hill town reporter
covering a bunch of little towns. And I love telling people's stories. And a lot of times I
told the stories of people, I remember a Lester champion calling me up and saying, you got to go
(11:14):
talk to Mary Katachovitch. She's got a pet porcupine. So I went and found Mary Katachovitch.
She lived way out in the in the boonies of Worthington. And yes, she had a pet porcupine,
you know, and but she told me other stories about how they settled there, her family's Russian,
how they used to walk all the way to Huntington to catch the train. And I just love telling people's
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stories. And so it came only natural that I would use this setting, you know, it's a beautiful setting.
It's very, very rural. But that doesn't mean that all the folks who live there are very rural.
There are some very well educated folks that come out from the universities, people. There are a lot
of writers, we have a lot of lectures, we, we have a lot of good understanding of current affairs and
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things that are happening and also history in this area, but also in the hill towns. And tell us about
some of the characters. I love some of the characters, the person who owns the gas station,
the person who owns the general store. I mean, tell us about them and how they kind of fit the
hill town character. One of my favorite characters is Annette, Annette Waters. She comes in the
(12:20):
second book. She owns a junkyard and a garage. And she hires Isabelle to find out what happened
to her father. Her father, Chet Atwater, was this real character. And allegedly he was too drunk to
get out of his house when it cut, the shack of a house when it caught fire. And I love Annette so
much. Her nickname is the tough cookie. Annette, sorry, Isabelle gives these secret nicknames to
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people that are in her mysteries. And she's the tough cookie. And then so she carries through
the whole series. A very popular group is the old farts. Oh, yes, I remember them. Now there are
these old men who hang out in the back room of the general store. And I think as I've been reading,
doing readings and stuff, a lot of people will tell me, yeah, there's a restaurant or, you know,
(13:10):
this is pretty common. Anyways, she, they know what's going on. They know what's going on only in
their town, but around it they have their perfect source of intel. And she calls them secret nick
names like the fattest old fart, the old fart with glasses, the serious old fart with her,
you know, salient characteristics. Other characters, yeah, Jack's really cool. I'm trying to think
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who else would be. There was a person who owned a bar in another town. Oh, Dancing Dave. Oh,
yes. Yeah, I like Tim Tell. Yeah, Dancing Dave Baxter. He's the one that, yeah, he has a huge
crush on Isabel. And she, you know, she's kind of more interested in Jack, but he's a great source
of information. He owns a bar on a lake, more of a biker bar. You know, speaking of bars, I just
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can't help but think about a certain bar in a town called Shelburne Falls that might have influenced
your bar scenes at all. I think it's called floodwater. No, that's my son's brewery. Yes, I know.
No, actually, it didn't. It didn't. No, no. When we lived in Worthington, we would go to Liston's
on Friday night and dance. My husband and I. Oh, I haven't been there. And it's, it was actually
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under new ownership now. They actually tore it down and rebuilt it. And that is more the inspiration.
That's a real country bar. I just wanted to get a plug in for floodwater. Well, my son's brewery
is great. And actually, it's the only place you can buy my books. Really? Yeah, I don't sell in
bookstores. You can buy the usual place on Amazon, but he he sells them, he carries them for me. I
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only sell them for 10 bucks there. Well, that's a good son. Yeah, he is a great son. I've had a few
readings there, but it's a great place. And the amount of musical talent that comes there is amazing.
Yes, I have heard. Let's talk a little bit about how you write. Well, I sit down and write, right,
like today, I usually do 500 words a day. 500 is a great amount. You very make progress. I mean,
(15:17):
the Isabella long books around 75,000 words. This book, other books, 65,000 or whatever. So I work,
500 is good. Sometimes I'll go over, you know, but I aim for that because it's a very pleasurable
amount of writing to do. And it's very progressive. And do you know where you're going when you sit
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down to write? Or do you I mean, do you write out that day or think that day about what you want to
write? Or does it just as you said before, just come to you when you sit down? Sometimes we're
in the shower. Some of my best ideas come of shower or if I'm driving driving, driving. I wonder why
that is mine used to come from driving. Yeah, I mean, you're supposed to be paying attention to the
road, but you know, your brain is doing this other thing. Good ideas pop in. Yeah, they do. But,
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you know, once once I get a book established, it kind of things just kind of flow. So, you know,
you know, so you're retired from a career in journalism. And I'm thinking, you know, it seems
that a lot of people retire and then they become creative and many people turn to writing. Maybe
they do their own stories or other, you know, they're they write something for their descendants
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to read. What are your thoughts about older adults and creativity, creative endeavors,
creative endeavors, specifically writing? Well, I didn't start writing when I retired. I used to
get up at five in the morning and write before I went to the newsroom. Oh my. And I did that for
many years. Now I don't have to get up at five, which is good. I actually lead a writing group
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at the senior center in Shelburne Falls. And it's a closed group. It was pitched to me as a memoir
writing group. But I tried to give them writing prompt. Oh, let me back up here. What happens?
We meet on Fridays. I give them a writing prompt. They get 25 minutes to write, and then they read
what they wrote. And actually, it's that's hard for me to do. I'm not that kind of a writer, but
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they're they, they, they really like it. And I try to give them writing prompts, not like my best
friend growing up, but things like this past week, we did one. I was trying to remember what it was.
Sorry, staying staying in tune. That's what it was staying in tune. And so they could I try to
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give them things that in they can interpret in many ways. And the writing I hear is just really
fabulous. You know, I have another writing group in it comes to floodwater on on the third
Sunday's at noon. Oh, my. And I do it early before the bar opens or the tap room. It gets really
loud. And people in that ring what they've written and share. We have people who are writing. It's
(18:02):
all ages, though. Okay. But people who are writing nonfiction, poetry, short stories, whatever they're
doing on substack, a substack post or something like that. The folks that come to your writing
groups, what do they want to do with their writing? I mean, do they see themselves
publishing important books? Or are they doing it for pleasure? What are their motivations?
(18:28):
In my senior writing group, some person has been writing all their life and
written in a journal. One person is actually in writing a memoir. And I hope to help her with that.
She's been a very interesting life. I think they I don't know if they have any plans to publish.
We actually, we back up again, and say that I've approached the senior center about doing
(18:52):
a book with a collection. And I can do the layout for that for free, you know, because I taught
myself. And we're seeing how that will work out. In terms of my other writing group at floodwater
or floodwater writers, as I call us, one woman is actually writing a book. It's a nonfiction
that she hopes to publish. I'm not sure about the about the others, whether they are planning to do
(19:16):
that. As I've said, many a time there's writing, and then there's the business of writing, right?
And that's the hard part. Do you want to talk about that now? Or should we talk about that
after you read something from your book? We can talk about after this. Let's read something. Okay.
Okay. I'm trying to think I want to read too long. So
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one of people really, really love Isabelle's mother, Maria. In fact, many people have told me,
please don't kill her off. It would be really horrible to have your mom die in your story.
No, I wouldn't like that. And I said, Okay, no, don't worry about that. Don't worry about that.
I'll kill off other people, but not my mother. So anyways, so in this case, this is the first
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book. And Isabelle is deciding whether she wants to pursue this case. And she's she's she's nabbed
a folder of cold cases from the newsroom when she left. She wasn't supposed to do that, but she did
that. And she's she's really interested in pursuing the case I described how this woman walked home
from her general store. And so here's a conversation between them. And here I go. My mother's head
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tips to one side. Besides being a nice kind of nosy. She's read tons of detective novels,
and watches the same kinds of movies. Tell me more about her. What's her name?
Adele Collins. She live with her son Dale not far from the store. He's still in town. She was a
store's cashier. People liked her. I never heard anyone say anything bad about her, even before
(20:50):
she disappeared. She was divorced twice. Both happened a long time ago. I sometimes saw her at
the rooster. That's the bar in town. What about the son? Dale was only 10 when it happened. He
doesn't seem the child killer type to me. He went to live with his grandparents, but then he inherited
his mother's house. He's kind of a sad sack. What do you mean? I don't know if I've ever seen him
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smile. He doesn't stick with one job too long. What about the cops? Oh, they treated like a
missing person's case, at least the seven years long gone. So the family could officially declare
her dead and take care of the paperwork. When was the last time anyone saw her? Her son was sleeping
over at his grandparents house that night. So it would have been after she left the store and
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walked home. It was a Monday evening. People said they saw the lights on at her house. They were
still it when her father came to check on her the next morning. Get this, her dog was inside,
her purse was on the counter. Nothing was taken. I want to ask you something. So when you're writing
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that, did you think that we don't want any spoilers here, but by saying the purse was there, that
means, you know, there was nothing was taken and the dog was still there. So were these clues or
does that just set the scene? I think it sets the scene. Did you provide any clues to the ending in
that part that you were talking about? Not really. I keep people guessing to the end. And what makes
(22:20):
me so happy is when I meet readers and they go, I couldn't figure it out until the end. I'm thinking
about one. It's the one in which dancing Dan is prominent. Okay. He's in the auto and the house
burns down. Oh, that's the second one. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And after I read it and I knew what the clue
(22:45):
was that helped solve it, don't worry, I'm not going to say. Okay. I flashed on the scene where
that clue first appeared and I thought, I should have known because that was just so like randomly
said. I should have known that that was going to be important. And that made me think about
how to place clues in stories so that they don't seem like clues. But in the end, yeah, that was
(23:09):
the thing. So you know what I'm talking about, right? Yes, I do know what you're talking about.
Thank you for not giving it away. Oh, I wouldn't give that away. No, no, no, no. I love that. That
was really nice. I love how you made the characters really come alive. It sounded really good. So I
hope people pick up your books and read them. But before we find out how they can get your books,
let's talk about what you just brought up. There's writing and then there's the business of writing.
(23:30):
So for folks who might be listening who are thinking they're writing something and they might want
to publish it, let's talk to them about that. Yes, it's tough. I just started, I finished my first
book in 1999. And it took, in those days, you would send a letter and a part of your manuscript
(23:50):
or whatever the agent wanted. And with a self addressed stamped envelope. Oh my goodness.
And, you know, you would hear back now. If you want to get published by either by a small media,
you know, a small publisher or an agent, they'll say, if it's all done online. And if you don't
(24:11):
hear from us in five months, consider it a no. Isn't that awful? I have submitted. I have queried
hundreds of agents and publishers. I've had two agents. They were decent people, but it didn't
work out. It took me until I moved back to Western Mass in 2017 to find a publisher. And that one was
(24:35):
based in France. Isn't that interesting? They're from Scotland. The people were from Scotland and
they lived in France. And until recently, they actually, they published 11 my books. And what
they closed in the spring time. Oh dear. Well, they gave us notice and they actually closed
officially in September and released our books to us. I did. And then at that point, I said,
(24:59):
no more begging. I'm not doing it ever again. And but I did get reached out by a publisher in London.
And so they published the first three books in the series. In the, in the meantime, I taught
myself how to do the format for Kindle and paperback. You did and I republished every book.
(25:20):
Oh, how long did that take? It took months. Well, I had to wait for them to release everything.
You know, the hardest one was the first one because I had to teach myself. Since then,
I helped two people publish theirs, you know, oh, everybody's going to be calling you now that
you've said that. I'm just telling you, Alex, can we edit that out? But you know, it's, I, I,
(25:42):
I listen to and I read a lot of good writing. And it is such there's so much competition
in order to get it to the public. Not only do you have to publish, you have to promote your writing.
Yes. And you have to like, this is a silly thing. Okay. One of the best ways for me to get reviews
and to get book readers is I give my book away on Kindle for two days. I actually pay two promotion
(26:08):
companies to let people know that that's available. And then people will will, you know, they'll get
the free book, you know, they send out all these emails and whatever. And then hopefully, if they
read it, they get it for free. If they're on Kindle limited, they'll get paid for pages read.
But that's how I've hooked people onto the series. And it's, it's, it's tricky, you know, I mean,
(26:34):
I've been on blog tours, but I don't find them as useful as maybe other people do. I'm on sub stack,
which I find that was a social media that I found. Of course, I do social media as well. But
that's, are you familiar with sub stack? It's like almost in terms of writers, a lot of people,
(26:54):
like Heather Cox Richardson is on there, Sherman Alexi is on there, and they'll post Heather does
every every week, every day, actually, Sherman every few days. But people will, you know, I do
this one called Hilltown Postcards. Oh, nice. And I write about this is nonfiction. And then I'll
write about a one called North for Haven Girl, North for Haven is where I'm from. And at the
(27:16):
times I'll write about writing or whatever. And it's a way to attract people to my book.
To your writing. So you have to, you have to do some sort of a great deal of self promotion.
If you're doing it yourself. So are you saying that for those folks who are thinking about
publishing, the way to do it is to do what self publish? Yeah, you could self publish. I mean,
(27:40):
you can find help in terms of doing the layout. I would avoid now out there, there's a lot of
really legitimate small publishing houses. And there are a lot of publishers that take advantage
of people who want to publish. I know one people, one author pays a publisher $2,000 to have his
books published. And none of his book, very few books get sold. You hear those stories. And so
(28:06):
you have to be wary about that, you know, but you could get. But we shouldn't discourage people
from writing. Oh, no, no, no, go, you know, it's great. Everybody has like I've mentioned before,
everybody has a story to tell, you know, and maybe it's something you want to share with your family
or something you just want to put down in writing. But I mean, doing the actual work of writing is
(28:27):
really helpful too. I mean, it helps you find yourself, helps you understand your own voice,
understand what your values are. There's so much, there's so much importance in just doing that
creative work. So I think that a lot of folks who want to be published might come to terms with the
fact that maybe they never will be, but that doesn't mean that they have wasted their time or their
(28:48):
effort. Because that that piece of writing can stand the test of time, put it in a drawer somewhere,
somebody will find it someday. They might read something that you've had to say and they might
be moved by that or changed by that. And also it's fun. And it is fun up to a point and then
maybe not. No, no, you know, it's always fun for you. It's always fun for me. It's my creative
(29:10):
expression. Yeah. And no, I really enjoy it when I meet people who say, I write, I don't, you know,
it's so painful for me to write, but I said, find another way to express yourself, you know, it's
just, you know, but no, I just, I just really enjoy doing it. Well, you know, now that we have to
wind down, I see Alex giving me the sign over here. I want to say it's also it was, it might be
(29:34):
enjoyable for you to write your books, but it's also really enjoyable to read them. I've had a lot
of fun reading them. I know I probably do what a lot of people do, try to figure out, well, who
does that, who is that character really in real life? And you've already told me, oh, no, no, no,
you don't do that. But it is fun to sort of say, I know somebody like that. I think this is a really
good time if you don't mind to let people know, oh, you already have where they can find your books
(29:58):
at floodwater brewing company in Shelburne Falls, Massachusetts. And of course, Amazon, you can get
it in Kindle, and you can get in paperback. And actually this spring, I have three books coming
out. Wow. One is the next in my middle grade series called Twinge in the Alchemy Machine.
(30:18):
What is that called? The twinge in and the alchemy and the alchemy machine. It's actually based in
the hill towns, a group, a family of genies moved to the hill towns. And so that the kids can learn
more about humans. And they go to a school and for their science fair project, they create an
alchemy machine that actually works, which brings them unnecessary attention. The second book is
(30:43):
The Swanson Shuffle, which is inspired by my experience living and working in a psychiatric
halfway house when Massachusetts started closing its hospitals. And the third one is number eight
in the Isabelle Long Mystery series. And that one's called Finding the Source. And that is
the first outright murder she's going to be investigating. I can't wait to see how that
(31:09):
one works out. Oh, and one more thing, an audio book. I'm doing an audio book of the four short
stories that I produce, Professor Groovy and other stories. So it's a busy spring. Joan,
you're doing so much. It's so wonderful. You're smiling. You should see she has a smile going
across her whole face. She's like, yeah, I'm doing it. I'm really busy. It's great. It's been so much
(31:29):
fun talking with you. I feel inspired. I'm going to go home and write. And could please do. Thanks
for being here. Thank you so much for having me. I really appreciate it. Bye bye. Bye bye. This concludes
today's podcast. We're always looking for new ideas. So feel free to reach out to Judy Raper,
Associate Dean of Community Engagement at Greenfield Community College at 413-775-1819.
(31:56):
If you have an idea, you'd love to share special thanks to the creators of Backyard Oasis.
Denise Schwartz, Chad Fuller, Dennis Lee and Christine Copeland. Have a great day.
Welcome to Backyard Oasis, a podcast designed by and for older adults living in the beautiful
(00:09):
Pioneer Valley of Western Massachusetts and produced in the tech studios at Greenfield
Community College in Greenfield, Massachusetts. Backyard Oasis reaches out to older adults
who seek knowledge to help them live more thoughtfully, healthily, and happily, who
hope to inspire others with their ideas and who serve their communities in the interest of the
(00:34):
greater good. Hi, I'm Denise Schwartz, your host. You know, we humans, we're such curious creatures.
We have a natural curiosity about things we can't understand. We love puzzles and riddles
and mysterious things. Our curiosity drives us to find reasons for things, drives us to make
(00:56):
connections between seemingly disparate occurrences. We love mysteries. We want to know what is it,
what happened, what does it mean, and why. Now, researcher George Loewenstein suggests that
when we encounter a mystery, our brain detects an inconsistency between what we know and what we
(01:17):
could know. This triggers an urge to seek answers. Now, mystery books tap into this desire to find
an answer to a puzzle. What happened? Why did someone do what he or she did? And who did it?
Neuroscience tells us that when we encounter something puzzling or unexpected, our good old
dopamine pathways, which as we all know are responsible for feelings of pleasure and motivation,
(01:43):
they activate. So solving a mystery or uncovering clues releases dopamine. No wonder that the
mystery and thriller genre is the second most popular book genre in the publishing world,
reading mysteries makes us feel good. So we're going to feel good today. We're going to talk
about mysteries because my guest today is Joan Livingston. She's an author of novels for adult
(02:03):
and young readers, including the Isabelle Long mystery series. Joan drew upon her experience
as a journalist, including being editor-in-chief for newspapers in Massachusetts and New Mexico,
to create Isabelle Long, who is a widow who uses the skills she acquired in the newspaper business
to solve cold cases in the fictional hill towns of Western Massachusetts. Hello, Joan.
(02:29):
Well, hello, Denise. Thank you for having me here. I appreciate that. Oh, you're welcome. I've
read your books and I couldn't wait to talk to you about it because I really will talk about
setting later, but I really liked the setting you used for your mysteries. They're called,
for people who don't know, it's the hill towns of Western Massachusetts. And when you have characters
(02:51):
from the hill towns, knowing some of those kinds of people who live in the hill towns,
I think you really nailed it. So that was really fun to read. So anyway, I know that you have
written literary fiction and short stories and poetry, but today we're going to talk really
about your mysteries and then maybe before you have time, some of the other things you've written.
I want to ask you, you know, when I was little, I read all the Nancy Drew books and so after I
(03:15):
finished reading those, I saw everything was mysterious. I saw mysteries everywhere. Do you?
I don't know if I see mysteries everywhere, but I see stories everywhere. And, you know,
actually, it's interesting, the book that I just finished, I had an interesting experience where
(03:35):
it was the day actually of my mother's funeral. And I was walking around my hometown of Fairhaven
and this man that I didn't know came up to me and said, my mother was killed so many years ago,
and her case was never solved. And I went, I said, what's her name? What's, you know, when this happened?
And my husband was next to me said, how do you attract people like that? And anyways, I looked
(04:01):
it up and it was true. And that became the inspiration for the book I just finished, where
Isabel and her mom are having dinner at a going to have dinner at a restaurant and she's approached
by a man like that. So that fell into my lap. Wow. Can I just I know you want to say something
else right now, but can I ask you about that? Did you talk to the person who came to you at the
(04:24):
cemetery in real life to let that person know you were going to kind of use that as a kernel for
your book? No, it was outside the library. It wasn't at the cemetery. Oh, okay, got it. No, I mean,
I know I didn't say something to him like that, you know, but you know, as my motto in life is
as a writer is I take what I know and I have my way with it. And that's the case of this one.
(04:45):
In the case of the book, the man is homeless. I don't know if this man was homeless or not.
No, no. So I just took his story and, and, you know, set it in the hill towns. So that kind of
just comes to you. I was going to ask you a little bit later in our conversation, you know,
how do you get your ideas? But I guess they come to you. Yes, they do. They do. Well, I'm a big fan
of Stephen King's book on writing where he says writing is telepathic and I sit down at my computer
(05:11):
and this, you know, what I type into that comes some from somewhere. And that's how I write.
Not everybody writes that way, but it works for me. And I don't know, that's just,
Well, how did Isabelle Long come to you? Well, a friend of mine wrote a mystery and I thought,
I'll try it. You know, I love, I love watching mysteries. I like reading mysteries. And I just
(05:34):
sat down and actually the opening to this book is what I wrote. Oh, it didn't change. It didn't change.
So you sat down and you started to write, this was not your first mystery, though, right? No,
this is my first mystery. Your first mystery. And it came to you. And that's how it was published,
the first page. Yes, that's pretty good. Actually, most of the book, most of my book is pretty much
(05:57):
what is the first draft pretty much sticks. I'll go back and change little things,
but pretty much it's the same. So tell us about Isabelle. Isabelle Long, I wanted to create a
character that wasn't some sweet young thing. I wanted to have a, you know, with the French
Karl-Unfam de Soutenage, you know, and she's coming off a bad year. Her husband died suddenly.
(06:22):
She lost her job as the editor-in-chief of a newspaper. Well, that sounds familiar. Well,
no, that didn't happen to me. But it happened to so many, I guess. But my, and her mother came to
live with her 92 year old mother, which wasn't a bad thing. And she decides to solve a cold case
(06:43):
in her hometown, in her town of Conwell, where this woman walked home from her family's
general store and was never seen again. And it was also Isabelle's first big story as a
rookie reporter. So she uses the skills she learned as a journalist and applies them to being a PI.
So like, what might that be? What are those skills? Well, you have to know the questions to ask. You
(07:10):
know, you go for, you look for sources, you know, she has one of the things I did as a reporter.
I used to, well, we haven't gone into that, but I used to be a reporter for the Gazette
long time ago in the Hilltowns. And on Fridays, I called it Checking the Traps, which is also the
name of the third book, where on Fridays, I would call different people or visit them,
(07:32):
hey, what's going on, you know, and the tips they would give me would lead to stories.
Wow, I didn't know that. Checking the traps.
Yeah. And that's what Isabelle does. And one thing, plus she takes a job working at the Rooster,
which is the local bar. And that's also a great place to find, you know, tips and info.
I mean, a bar, sure, especially if you're the bartender. Yes, she's the bartender.
(07:55):
But we've skipped ahead a little bit, because I know there is a bartender in your stories.
And I mean, we definitely want to talk about him. Well, I actually, I think we can't talk about that
right now. So you have this great cast of characters. Isabelle's mom has a role in your books.
Mm hmm. She's Maria. She's based on my mom, my late mom, and she comes to live with her,
and she loves to read detective novels and smutty romance novels, and always comes along sometimes
(08:22):
on her interviews. And she's very astute. So she kind of encourages you when she thinks that this
is going to be okay, or this might be too dangerous, or that's what I got from reading your books,
that mom was sort of like the person you run things by and kind of use her as a, as a, as a,
not a source. What would you say? How does she fit in with that? She's her Watson. She's your Watson.
(08:47):
Was your mom in real life your Watson? No, but she loved reading books. I mean, there's a lot of my
mom in her. But she was very proud that I wrote these books. Oh, that's really good. I love it.
I don't know if my mother would be my Watson. What do you think, Ma? Oh, she said she'd like to be.
Okay, so, you know, there's also in your book this ruggedly handsome hilltown bar owner named Jack.
(09:10):
Jack Smith, yeah. And now I have to say, I found that Isabelle and Jack's repartee was really real
and refreshing. And it wasn't adolescent. It was very adult. So tell us about Jack. Well,
she goes to work at Jack's bar, the rooster. And she's a newcomer. He's a, he's a native, you know,
he's in his family there. And they just strike up. There's, you know, there's some sort of romance
(09:36):
that involved. I don't want to go into too much detail what happens. But it's an adult relationship.
And I'm very fond of Jack. So, you know, I really liked him too. I liked him as a, I thought it
would be fun if he was a real person and be fun to get to know him. So your mysteries take place,
at least in this series, in our hill towns. So for listeners who don't live in this area,
(10:00):
they might want to know that the hill towns are towns and villages that are nestled in the low
hills that kind of roll west from our Connecticut River Valley right here in western Massachusetts.
They roll towards the Berkshires. And the Berkshires are the mountains that are pretty much
close to the New York state border. And the hill towns are in an area that's very different from
the valley in that there are lots of streams and rivers and farms and what we call them mountains,
(10:26):
but they're really hills and back roads and old buildings because a lot of the hill towns were
settled in the 1700s and 1800s. So there are a lot of old twisty roads and old stone fences. And it
just sets a beautiful tone for any story, but particularly a mystery. Are those some of the
reasons that you chose the hill towns? Well, when we moved there from Boston in 1981, I really became
(10:50):
immersed into the hill towns. And then I became a reporter. I was the Worthington correspondent
being paid by the inch in 1985, I believe. And then eventually became the hill town reporter
covering a bunch of little towns. And I love telling people's stories. And a lot of times I
told the stories of people, I remember a Lester champion calling me up and saying, you got to go
(11:14):
talk to Mary Katachovitch. She's got a pet porcupine. So I went and found Mary Katachovitch.
She lived way out in the in the boonies of Worthington. And yes, she had a pet porcupine,
you know, and but she told me other stories about how they settled there, her family's Russian,
how they used to walk all the way to Huntington to catch the train. And I just love telling people's
(11:36):
stories. And so it came only natural that I would use this setting, you know, it's a beautiful setting.
It's very, very rural. But that doesn't mean that all the folks who live there are very rural.
There are some very well educated folks that come out from the universities, people. There are a lot
of writers, we have a lot of lectures, we, we have a lot of good understanding of current affairs and
(11:58):
things that are happening and also history in this area, but also in the hill towns. And tell us about
some of the characters. I love some of the characters, the person who owns the gas station,
the person who owns the general store. I mean, tell us about them and how they kind of fit the
hill town character. One of my favorite characters is Annette, Annette Waters. She comes in the
(12:20):
second book. She owns a junkyard and a garage. And she hires Isabelle to find out what happened
to her father. Her father, Chet Atwater, was this real character. And allegedly he was too drunk to
get out of his house when it cut, the shack of a house when it caught fire. And I love Annette so
much. Her nickname is the tough cookie. Annette, sorry, Isabelle gives these secret nicknames to
(12:47):
people that are in her mysteries. And she's the tough cookie. And then so she carries through
the whole series. A very popular group is the old farts. Oh, yes, I remember them. Now there are
these old men who hang out in the back room of the general store. And I think as I've been reading,
doing readings and stuff, a lot of people will tell me, yeah, there's a restaurant or, you know,
(13:10):
this is pretty common. Anyways, she, they know what's going on. They know what's going on only in
their town, but around it they have their perfect source of intel. And she calls them secret nick
names like the fattest old fart, the old fart with glasses, the serious old fart with her,
you know, salient characteristics. Other characters, yeah, Jack's really cool. I'm trying to think
(13:37):
who else would be. There was a person who owned a bar in another town. Oh, Dancing Dave. Oh,
yes. Yeah, I like Tim Tell. Yeah, Dancing Dave Baxter. He's the one that, yeah, he has a huge
crush on Isabel. And she, you know, she's kind of more interested in Jack, but he's a great source
of information. He owns a bar on a lake, more of a biker bar. You know, speaking of bars, I just
(14:01):
can't help but think about a certain bar in a town called Shelburne Falls that might have influenced
your bar scenes at all. I think it's called floodwater. No, that's my son's brewery. Yes, I know.
No, actually, it didn't. It didn't. No, no. When we lived in Worthington, we would go to Liston's
on Friday night and dance. My husband and I. Oh, I haven't been there. And it's, it was actually
(14:24):
under new ownership now. They actually tore it down and rebuilt it. And that is more the inspiration.
That's a real country bar. I just wanted to get a plug in for floodwater. Well, my son's brewery
is great. And actually, it's the only place you can buy my books. Really? Yeah, I don't sell in
bookstores. You can buy the usual place on Amazon, but he he sells them, he carries them for me. I
(14:49):
only sell them for 10 bucks there. Well, that's a good son. Yeah, he is a great son. I've had a few
readings there, but it's a great place. And the amount of musical talent that comes there is amazing.
Yes, I have heard. Let's talk a little bit about how you write. Well, I sit down and write, right,
like today, I usually do 500 words a day. 500 is a great amount. You very make progress. I mean,
(15:17):
the Isabella long books around 75,000 words. This book, other books, 65,000 or whatever. So I work,
500 is good. Sometimes I'll go over, you know, but I aim for that because it's a very pleasurable
amount of writing to do. And it's very progressive. And do you know where you're going when you sit
(15:37):
down to write? Or do you I mean, do you write out that day or think that day about what you want to
write? Or does it just as you said before, just come to you when you sit down? Sometimes we're
in the shower. Some of my best ideas come of shower or if I'm driving driving, driving. I wonder why
that is mine used to come from driving. Yeah, I mean, you're supposed to be paying attention to the
road, but you know, your brain is doing this other thing. Good ideas pop in. Yeah, they do. But,
(16:00):
you know, once once I get a book established, it kind of things just kind of flow. So, you know,
you know, so you're retired from a career in journalism. And I'm thinking, you know, it seems
that a lot of people retire and then they become creative and many people turn to writing. Maybe
they do their own stories or other, you know, they're they write something for their descendants
(16:23):
to read. What are your thoughts about older adults and creativity, creative endeavors,
creative endeavors, specifically writing? Well, I didn't start writing when I retired. I used to
get up at five in the morning and write before I went to the newsroom. Oh my. And I did that for
many years. Now I don't have to get up at five, which is good. I actually lead a writing group
(16:49):
at the senior center in Shelburne Falls. And it's a closed group. It was pitched to me as a memoir
writing group. But I tried to give them writing prompt. Oh, let me back up here. What happens?
We meet on Fridays. I give them a writing prompt. They get 25 minutes to write, and then they read
what they wrote. And actually, it's that's hard for me to do. I'm not that kind of a writer, but
(17:15):
they're they, they, they really like it. And I try to give them writing prompts, not like my best
friend growing up, but things like this past week, we did one. I was trying to remember what it was.
Sorry, staying staying in tune. That's what it was staying in tune. And so they could I try to
(17:38):
give them things that in they can interpret in many ways. And the writing I hear is just really
fabulous. You know, I have another writing group in it comes to floodwater on on the third
Sunday's at noon. Oh, my. And I do it early before the bar opens or the tap room. It gets really
loud. And people in that ring what they've written and share. We have people who are writing. It's
(18:02):
all ages, though. Okay. But people who are writing nonfiction, poetry, short stories, whatever they're
doing on substack, a substack post or something like that. The folks that come to your writing
groups, what do they want to do with their writing? I mean, do they see themselves
publishing important books? Or are they doing it for pleasure? What are their motivations?
(18:28):
In my senior writing group, some person has been writing all their life and
written in a journal. One person is actually in writing a memoir. And I hope to help her with that.
She's been a very interesting life. I think they I don't know if they have any plans to publish.
We actually, we back up again, and say that I've approached the senior center about doing
(18:52):
a book with a collection. And I can do the layout for that for free, you know, because I taught
myself. And we're seeing how that will work out. In terms of my other writing group at floodwater
or floodwater writers, as I call us, one woman is actually writing a book. It's a nonfiction
that she hopes to publish. I'm not sure about the about the others, whether they are planning to do
(19:16):
that. As I've said, many a time there's writing, and then there's the business of writing, right?
And that's the hard part. Do you want to talk about that now? Or should we talk about that
after you read something from your book? We can talk about after this. Let's read something. Okay.
Okay. I'm trying to think I want to read too long. So
(19:39):
one of people really, really love Isabelle's mother, Maria. In fact, many people have told me,
please don't kill her off. It would be really horrible to have your mom die in your story.
No, I wouldn't like that. And I said, Okay, no, don't worry about that. Don't worry about that.
I'll kill off other people, but not my mother. So anyways, so in this case, this is the first
(19:59):
book. And Isabelle is deciding whether she wants to pursue this case. And she's she's she's nabbed
a folder of cold cases from the newsroom when she left. She wasn't supposed to do that, but she did
that. And she's she's really interested in pursuing the case I described how this woman walked home
from her general store. And so here's a conversation between them. And here I go. My mother's head
(20:26):
tips to one side. Besides being a nice kind of nosy. She's read tons of detective novels,
and watches the same kinds of movies. Tell me more about her. What's her name?
Adele Collins. She live with her son Dale not far from the store. He's still in town. She was a
store's cashier. People liked her. I never heard anyone say anything bad about her, even before
(20:50):
she disappeared. She was divorced twice. Both happened a long time ago. I sometimes saw her at
the rooster. That's the bar in town. What about the son? Dale was only 10 when it happened. He
doesn't seem the child killer type to me. He went to live with his grandparents, but then he inherited
his mother's house. He's kind of a sad sack. What do you mean? I don't know if I've ever seen him
(21:14):
smile. He doesn't stick with one job too long. What about the cops? Oh, they treated like a
missing person's case, at least the seven years long gone. So the family could officially declare
her dead and take care of the paperwork. When was the last time anyone saw her? Her son was sleeping
over at his grandparents house that night. So it would have been after she left the store and
(21:37):
walked home. It was a Monday evening. People said they saw the lights on at her house. They were
still it when her father came to check on her the next morning. Get this, her dog was inside,
her purse was on the counter. Nothing was taken. I want to ask you something. So when you're writing
(21:58):
that, did you think that we don't want any spoilers here, but by saying the purse was there, that
means, you know, there was nothing was taken and the dog was still there. So were these clues or
does that just set the scene? I think it sets the scene. Did you provide any clues to the ending in
that part that you were talking about? Not really. I keep people guessing to the end. And what makes
(22:20):
me so happy is when I meet readers and they go, I couldn't figure it out until the end. I'm thinking
about one. It's the one in which dancing Dan is prominent. Okay. He's in the auto and the house
burns down. Oh, that's the second one. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And after I read it and I knew what the clue
(22:45):
was that helped solve it, don't worry, I'm not going to say. Okay. I flashed on the scene where
that clue first appeared and I thought, I should have known because that was just so like randomly
said. I should have known that that was going to be important. And that made me think about
how to place clues in stories so that they don't seem like clues. But in the end, yeah, that was
(23:09):
the thing. So you know what I'm talking about, right? Yes, I do know what you're talking about.
Thank you for not giving it away. Oh, I wouldn't give that away. No, no, no, no. I love that. That
was really nice. I love how you made the characters really come alive. It sounded really good. So I
hope people pick up your books and read them. But before we find out how they can get your books,
let's talk about what you just brought up. There's writing and then there's the business of writing.
(23:30):
So for folks who might be listening who are thinking they're writing something and they might want
to publish it, let's talk to them about that. Yes, it's tough. I just started, I finished my first
book in 1999. And it took, in those days, you would send a letter and a part of your manuscript
(23:50):
or whatever the agent wanted. And with a self addressed stamped envelope. Oh my goodness.
And, you know, you would hear back now. If you want to get published by either by a small media,
you know, a small publisher or an agent, they'll say, if it's all done online. And if you don't
(24:11):
hear from us in five months, consider it a no. Isn't that awful? I have submitted. I have queried
hundreds of agents and publishers. I've had two agents. They were decent people, but it didn't
work out. It took me until I moved back to Western Mass in 2017 to find a publisher. And that one was
(24:35):
based in France. Isn't that interesting? They're from Scotland. The people were from Scotland and
they lived in France. And until recently, they actually, they published 11 my books. And what
they closed in the spring time. Oh dear. Well, they gave us notice and they actually closed
officially in September and released our books to us. I did. And then at that point, I said,
(24:59):
no more begging. I'm not doing it ever again. And but I did get reached out by a publisher in London.
And so they published the first three books in the series. In the, in the meantime, I taught
myself how to do the format for Kindle and paperback. You did and I republished every book.
(25:20):
Oh, how long did that take? It took months. Well, I had to wait for them to release everything.
You know, the hardest one was the first one because I had to teach myself. Since then,
I helped two people publish theirs, you know, oh, everybody's going to be calling you now that
you've said that. I'm just telling you, Alex, can we edit that out? But you know, it's, I, I,
(25:42):
I listen to and I read a lot of good writing. And it is such there's so much competition
in order to get it to the public. Not only do you have to publish, you have to promote your writing.
Yes. And you have to like, this is a silly thing. Okay. One of the best ways for me to get reviews
and to get book readers is I give my book away on Kindle for two days. I actually pay two promotion
(26:08):
companies to let people know that that's available. And then people will will, you know, they'll get
the free book, you know, they send out all these emails and whatever. And then hopefully, if they
read it, they get it for free. If they're on Kindle limited, they'll get paid for pages read.
But that's how I've hooked people onto the series. And it's, it's, it's tricky, you know, I mean,
(26:34):
I've been on blog tours, but I don't find them as useful as maybe other people do. I'm on sub stack,
which I find that was a social media that I found. Of course, I do social media as well. But
that's, are you familiar with sub stack? It's like almost in terms of writers, a lot of people,
(26:54):
like Heather Cox Richardson is on there, Sherman Alexi is on there, and they'll post Heather does
every every week, every day, actually, Sherman every few days. But people will, you know, I do
this one called Hilltown Postcards. Oh, nice. And I write about this is nonfiction. And then I'll
write about a one called North for Haven Girl, North for Haven is where I'm from. And at the
(27:16):
times I'll write about writing or whatever. And it's a way to attract people to my book.
To your writing. So you have to, you have to do some sort of a great deal of self promotion.
If you're doing it yourself. So are you saying that for those folks who are thinking about
publishing, the way to do it is to do what self publish? Yeah, you could self publish. I mean,
(27:40):
you can find help in terms of doing the layout. I would avoid now out there, there's a lot of
really legitimate small publishing houses. And there are a lot of publishers that take advantage
of people who want to publish. I know one people, one author pays a publisher $2,000 to have his
books published. And none of his book, very few books get sold. You hear those stories. And so
(28:06):
you have to be wary about that, you know, but you could get. But we shouldn't discourage people
from writing. Oh, no, no, no, go, you know, it's great. Everybody has like I've mentioned before,
everybody has a story to tell, you know, and maybe it's something you want to share with your family
or something you just want to put down in writing. But I mean, doing the actual work of writing is
(28:27):
really helpful too. I mean, it helps you find yourself, helps you understand your own voice,
understand what your values are. There's so much, there's so much importance in just doing that
creative work. So I think that a lot of folks who want to be published might come to terms with the
fact that maybe they never will be, but that doesn't mean that they have wasted their time or their
(28:48):
effort. Because that that piece of writing can stand the test of time, put it in a drawer somewhere,
somebody will find it someday. They might read something that you've had to say and they might
be moved by that or changed by that. And also it's fun. And it is fun up to a point and then
maybe not. No, no, you know, it's always fun for you. It's always fun for me. It's my creative
(29:10):
expression. Yeah. And no, I really enjoy it when I meet people who say, I write, I don't, you know,
it's so painful for me to write, but I said, find another way to express yourself, you know, it's
just, you know, but no, I just, I just really enjoy doing it. Well, you know, now that we have to
wind down, I see Alex giving me the sign over here. I want to say it's also it was, it might be
(29:34):
enjoyable for you to write your books, but it's also really enjoyable to read them. I've had a lot
of fun reading them. I know I probably do what a lot of people do, try to figure out, well, who
does that, who is that character really in real life? And you've already told me, oh, no, no, no,
you don't do that. But it is fun to sort of say, I know somebody like that. I think this is a really
good time if you don't mind to let people know, oh, you already have where they can find your books
(29:58):
at floodwater brewing company in Shelburne Falls, Massachusetts. And of course, Amazon, you can get
it in Kindle, and you can get in paperback. And actually this spring, I have three books coming
out. Wow. One is the next in my middle grade series called Twinge in the Alchemy Machine.
(30:18):
What is that called? The twinge in and the alchemy and the alchemy machine. It's actually based in
the hill towns, a group, a family of genies moved to the hill towns. And so that the kids can learn
more about humans. And they go to a school and for their science fair project, they create an
alchemy machine that actually works, which brings them unnecessary attention. The second book is
(30:43):
The Swanson Shuffle, which is inspired by my experience living and working in a psychiatric
halfway house when Massachusetts started closing its hospitals. And the third one is number eight
in the Isabelle Long Mystery series. And that one's called Finding the Source. And that is
the first outright murder she's going to be investigating. I can't wait to see how that
(31:09):
one works out. Oh, and one more thing, an audio book. I'm doing an audio book of the four short
stories that I produce, Professor Groovy and other stories. So it's a busy spring. Joan,
you're doing so much. It's so wonderful. You're smiling. You should see she has a smile going
across her whole face. She's like, yeah, I'm doing it. I'm really busy. It's great. It's been so much
(31:29):
fun talking with you. I feel inspired. I'm going to go home and write. And could please do. Thanks
for being here. Thank you so much for having me. I really appreciate it. Bye bye. Bye bye. This concludes
today's podcast. We're always looking for new ideas. So feel free to reach out to Judy Raper,
Associate Dean of Community Engagement at Greenfield Community College at 413-775-1819.
(31:56):
If you have an idea, you'd love to share special thanks to the creators of Backyard Oasis.
Denise Schwartz, Chad Fuller, Dennis Lee and Christine Copeland. Have a great day.
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