Ever wondered what really goes on behind the scenes when therapists become podcasters? This candid conversation with the hosts of Therapy Tea podcast pulls back the curtain on the triumphs, challenges, and ethical considerations of creating mental health content in today's digital landscape.
Friendship, frustration, and a shared vision sparked the creation of Therapy Tea, as the hosts sought to address the real-world experiences that graduate school never prepared them for. From establishing ethical guidelines to wrestling with technical nightmares, they share their unfiltered journey through the good, bad, and ugly aspects of podcasting while maintaining their professional integrity.
The good? Creative fulfillment, meaningful connections, and the satisfaction of helping fellow clinicians feel less alone in their struggles. The bad? A staggering time commitment—approximately 4-5 hours per episode beyond recording—that requires careful balance with clinical practice and personal life. The ugly? Financial investment without immediate return, the uncomfortable necessity of self-promotion, and the constant tension between mission and monetization.
For mental health professionals considering content creation, this episode offers invaluable insights into setting realistic expectations, establishing ethical boundaries, and navigating the technical and personal challenges that come with putting your professional voice into the world. Whether you're an established practitioner looking to expand your impact or a student wondering about alternative career paths, you'll find honest guidance about what it truly means to share your therapeutic wisdom beyond the consulting room.
Ready to learn more about podcasting as a mental health professional? Contact the Therapy Tea hosts directly at TherapyTPod@gmail.com, or tune into their upcoming anniversary episode for even deeper insights into their podcasting journey.
Get your step by step guide to private practice. Because you are too important to lose to not knowing the rules, going broke, burning out, and giving up. #counselorsdontquit.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
And the truth is it's really hard for social media
for this thing to come up withposts and self-promote and, you
know, do stuff that like talksabout how awesome we are and
that's not really who we are ingeneral, and so you know that
part has been really hard.
How to balance that.
Speaker 2 (00:27):
Welcome to Badass Therapists, building practices
that thrive, where it's allabout working smarter, not
harder.
Now here's your host, dr KateWalker who loves a good
fireplace.
Speaker 3 (00:45):
What's really happening behind the scenes in
the therapy world?
Today, I'm joined by the hostsof the Therapy Tea podcast for a
raw and insightful conversationabout what it means to show up
as a mental health professionalin today's climate, whether
you're a grad student, newpractitioner or seasoned
clinician.
This episode is the tea youdidn't know you needed.
Now let's get to work.
(01:06):
Hey, I'm Dr Kate Walker,welcome.
I'm super excited about this onebecause these folks are legit
podcasters, like they're thereal deal, and so the fact that
I talked them into even puttingan ethics component in here like
okay, we're going to make thisa CE, they're going to.
(01:27):
So they came up with the titlethe good, the bad and the ugly
and I love that because thiswill be turned into a podcast
and I'm curious like I'm here asa fangirl because I want to
find out everything they do, andthey had me as a guest on last
week and it was super fun andyou guys, you just made me feel
so comfortable.
So I definitely want to knowhow you guys make this work and
(01:51):
I sent you some questions fromour Texas counselors creating
badass businesses Facebook page.
But other than that, jasmine,I'm going to turn it over to you
.
Oh my gosh.
Speaker 2 (02:00):
I'm not used to being by myself.
I just called her.
I don't know where she is.
We just talked on the phone.
We'll get started.
So the way we're going to kindof do this is, karen and I have
created sort of like an outline,as proven in my other CE
experiences where I'm teaching aCE or I'm presenting a CE.
I'm not very good at it, sowe'll watch it for you, cool.
(02:23):
I'm not very good at it, sowe'll watch it for you.
Cool, cool, cool.
Hey, yeah, I'm Jasmine andKaren and we host Therapy Tea.
We started our podcast about ayear ago.
Our first episode in April isgoing to be our one year
anniversary episode, sodefinitely make sure to check
that out.
I do want to also note we havean hour today, so that means
(02:44):
that we're probably not going toget through everything,
although if Karen doesn't showup, maybe we will.
If you are interested inlearning more, we're going to do
more of a deep dive on ouranniversary episode, like I said
.
So just follow us on prettymuch any platform that you're
listening on, like I think we'reon Pandora, we're definitely on
Spotify, itunes, we're on allthe things.
(03:11):
So definitely follow us and youcan see our anniversary episode
, where we'll talk more indetail about what's going on.
I want to start just with ourorigin story.
There she is.
Yay, karen's here, oh my God.
Speaker 1 (03:25):
I know I figured it out now.
Was I using the wrong link?
Speaker 2 (03:28):
I don't know.
Speaker 1 (03:29):
Okay.
Speaker 2 (03:29):
This is Karen.
We're so professional.
Okay.
So, Karen, I was talking.
I've already told them aboutour anniversary episode and why
they should follow us to listento more, but I was starting with
our origin story because it'simportant to know your roots and
why we started this in thefirst place.
That's right.
Speaker 1 (03:47):
You know, one of the things that I want to start with
on our origin story is we metin grad school and we did not
plan on this podcast from thevery beginning.
That was like it evolved, forsure, and we actually share a
lot about just our friendship ingeneral and a little bit of our
podcast origin story withanother therapist.
(04:08):
Her name is Candice Frazier andshe does a podcast as well,
called the Couch Next Door, andwe love her and her podcast.
She came on our podcast as aguest and we did an episode with
her about our friendship andit's I think it's dropping
tomorrow.
So if y'all want to know moreabout that, like definitely tune
into that.
(04:28):
But I think we really just likeI think we were just ranting
one day, drinking wine as you doand ranting about some of the
things that frustrate us asprofessionals, as counselors,
and we both are avid podcastlisteners and it really started
from there, just like well, whatif we had a podcast?
What if we talked about some ofthis and just turned on a mic?
Speaker 2 (04:52):
Right.
Like I mean, how many people ingrad school were like Googling
what should I do?
Or like podcast for counselorsand then getting just a bunch of
, like you know, really curatedpodcasts that talk a lot more
about like educational stuff andnot really like the nitty
gritty of like okay, but likewhat is it actually like to be a
(05:14):
counselor?
Like what is it actually liketo get into this profession?
Like how much am I expected tomake?
What can I even do with this?
Like how do I start a privatepractice?
I mean, you can pay for a bunchof stuff and see a bunch of
stuff that is going to tell youthe how to's, I guess, but not
so much like the real life stuff.
You know the real struggles.
(05:35):
Like we all heard aboutboundaries in grad school, but I
don't know about you.
I didn't know what that meantuntil I actually became a
counselor and then I was like,oh, I need boundaries.
Like I need them.
Oh, I need self-care.
That's not just like somestupid thing that we talked
about every single class.
Like we didn't know all of thatstuff and until it was too late
(05:58):
and we were already counselors.
Speaker 1 (06:01):
And Jasmine, you and I were like sharing those things
with each other just again asconversations and realizing that
maybe it would be useful forand here's what we're coming up
with as we go.
So we we did spend a lot oftime having conversations about
(06:30):
okay, who is this for?
What are we doing, what's ourfocus, what's our intention?
Speaker 2 (06:36):
It means that Karen said Jasmine, we have to have a
focus conversation and we haveto like, do our ideal listener
and do all these weird littleexercises.
Because I was just like a lotof people.
I'm like let's just do apodcast, I don't know, let's
turn on a microphone, let's justdo it.
No, no, that stuff's actuallyvery important and actually very
, very helpful, like the ideallistener.
(06:58):
We came up with a name for her,we came up with her age, like
all that stuff, and honestly, Istill go back and look at it to
this day.
So that's something that Iwould just absolutely recommend,
even though it's kind of a painin the ass.
Speaker 1 (07:12):
Yeah, it sort of seems like maybe gratuitous, but
I thought it was absolutelynecessary for us to figure out
what our focus was going to be.
And so we started by like justscheduling times to talk to each
other regularly about thispodcast idea not just about,
like, life and our friendshipand blah, blah, blah.
But what is this podcast?
(07:33):
What are we doing?
And we set up a shared GoogleDrive.
That was kind of where westarted, like, okay, that way we
can both see the stuff thatwe're typing on.
Because we don't live in thesame area and we weren't able to
get together in person as often.
We started out just like miningour list in our brains of like
okay, if we want to do this,we're going to talk to other
(07:54):
mental health professionals.
Who do we know?
Who are we friends with?
Let's start with a friends listfor people that we can talk to,
and that was also in my mind.
That was like kind of ustesting our idea.
Do we even know enough peoplethat we could even start this?
Or are we ridiculous Because weactually don't know anybody
that would say yes to coming onthis podcast.
(08:15):
So is this idea even worthexploring any more if we can't
come up with enough people orenough content to even start,
and so that, to me, was likereally important, and talking
through this ideal listenerpersona was so important, I
think, for both of us, not justas an exercise, but to make sure
that the two of us are on thesame page, because we're doing a
(08:36):
podcast together.
It's not just one persondeciding everything.
We're doing this together, andso we wanted to really make sure
we're on the same page.
We know what our focus is andwe can, like you said, jasmine,
always go back to that to likemake sure that we're still going
that direction.
And then we came up withquestions like, okay, what would
we talk about with our guests?
Like, what would we say?
(08:57):
What would we ask?
Speaker 2 (08:58):
Yeah, and I think we are not professional
interviewers, as it turns out,and another thing that we
learned pretty early on is likenatural counseling ability
translates well into podcasting.
However, if you're doing aninterview style, I would also
(09:21):
recommend maybe just listeningto like investigative reporting
interviewer podcasts, like thosestory series where they
investigate something.
I remember listening to thoseand then like writing down,
maybe not questions, but kind oflike where the conversation
went, just like brainstormingand really mindfully paying
attention.
Because I didn't get my degreein journalism, because I didn't
(09:44):
get my degree in journalism.
Speaker 1 (09:45):
Well, I don't piggyback off of that, jasmine,
because we did try to listen toa bunch of different kinds of
podcasts that were interviewstyle.
I listened to like celebrityinterview ones too, because we
both knew we wanted this podcastto have a certain vibe and that
not be overly investigative orserious and instead be more
casual and relatable, and sothat was another thing I was
(10:05):
like looking at.
Like how does more than oneperson interview one person,
cause it's not again just one ofus interviewing one person,
it's both of us.
How do we make sure that wehave a dynamic?
How does that even look whentwo or three people are
interviewing one person?
How does that flow?
And so, like we did spend a lotof time doing all of that
before we even turned on a mic,yeah, so, speaking of, turned on
(10:28):
a mic, we had to, oh yeah.
Speaker 3 (10:31):
So how did you guys cause?
Your Google form was amazing.
Right, as one of your guests,there was a Google form and had
me fill out a lot of thingsahead of time.
So I was prepped, you wereprepped, and did you guys come
up with those questions when youwere doing the ideal client or
the ideal exercise?
Yes, that's exactly where wecame.
(10:51):
What you wanted to get out ofpeople Correct?
Speaker 1 (10:54):
Yes, related to the counseling field yes, and we
also spent a lot of timefiguring out, like kind of what
order we wanted those questionsto be in, because we talked a
lot about like how did we wantthe conversation to flow and how
much direction did we want tohave as the interviewers, and
how much openness did we wantthere to be when it came to just
(11:18):
like letting the conversationgo where it's going to go.
Sometimes, like sometimes thathappens and we want that to
happen and we knew thatintentionally.
So we have some big generalquestions that we ask everybody,
and then there's other thingsthat maybe we don't even ask at
the end of the day because wejust don't get to it.
And it's okay, cause it wasstill a good conversation.
Speaker 2 (11:38):
There is one question that we sort of centered the
podcast around, just based on,again, the interaction.
The initial idea of thispodcast is what do you wish you
had known?
So, while, yes, we sometimes gooff the rails and we'll talk
about predatory practices andthat's the one I edited today,
so look out for that onePredatory private practices and
(12:02):
insurance and stuff.
We wanted to talk about all ofthose things and be open to that
.
But we also wanted to stay to acentral theme which I think is
flexible enough to cover all ofthe information that we want to
but keeps everybody on track.
So I think it was reallycritical for us to figure out OK
, what is the central, like verycentering theme of the podcast
(12:26):
what do you wish you had known?
So we do not get through aninterview without asking that
question, even if it's in thelast five minutes, we do not get
through an interview.
Speaker 1 (12:35):
Yeah, we decided that that was like our central theme
.
I love that you said that.
Jasmine, as our resident techexpert, tell us a little bit
about how we figured out what todo with iThinkTech, jasmine is
so much better at it than we do,and that's really saying
something about Karen, okay.
Speaker 2 (12:51):
So that was probably like the biggest headache
starting out, because it's like,okay, everybody loves podcasts,
but what do we even do as faras like, how does that work?
Like, what do we even do?
As far as like, how does thatwork?
Like, how do you create thisand then put it on platforms?
Like we had no idea?
So we again started Googling andwe found a few different things
(13:14):
, like there's Zencaster and alot of different people have a
lot of different opinions aboutit, just depending on what kind
of content you want to put outthere.
We ended up landing on Alitu,because it was sort of an all
encompassing thing.
Karen had heard about it onanother podcast they were doing
like a link to it or somethingand she ended up looking it up.
(13:35):
I looked into it.
So that is our, that's ourplatform that we use, and I like
it because it kind of does allthe work for us and we don't
have to figure that out Like wejust have the.
I mean, karen builds theepisodes and I essentially just
do a lot of the editing and werecord within it.
Yes, and we record within it aswell.
(13:55):
So we do.
It's a one stop shop.
And if you don't know a lotabout computers, if you don't
know a lot about recordingsoftware, audio video, like
sharing, content sharing if youdon't know a lot about that,
find an all in one.
Or if you just don't have thatkind of time.
Because if you're going to sithere and tell me that audacity
(14:17):
is the best, but, like you, onlyhave 30 minutes extra a week to
be editing from a local likeprogram, like that, it's not
going to work because thelearning curve with some of
these programs is incrediblysteep.
So you want to find somethingand you're not.
This is don't quit your day job.
You know, like you're, we'll getto that in a second, but don't
(14:40):
quit your day job.
You're going to have tocontinue to see clients, like
you're going to have to.
This is going to have to be ahobby for more in a second, but
don't quit your day job.
You're going to have tocontinue to see clients, like
you're going to have to.
This is going to have to be ahobby for more than a minute, a
few minutes actually.
So find something easy just toget you started.
I mean, we reevaluate all thetime, but Allitude just kind of
always comes on top, mainlybecause of the convenience of it
.
We edit on there we everything,literally everything.
Speaker 1 (15:04):
Yeah, we record in it , we edit in it, we build in it
and we distribute through it.
It has the links to where itdistributes into all the
platforms for you Not all ofthem, not all the like the
little tiny various podcastplatforms, but the main ones
like Spotify, right.
And so the other thing I wantto say about kind of Alitu was
it also offered like somediscounts and like free trials
(15:26):
and stuff like that, and so itgave us the opportunity to like
mess around with it.
Oh, and there's music within ittoo.
So, like our music just comesfrom Alitu.
It's free.
We didn't pay anybody for thatand we wanted to just sort of
get started and we found thatAlitu enabled us to like get
started with like lowinformation, if that makes sense
, right.
Us to like get started withlike low information, if that
(15:47):
makes sense, right.
We didn't have to like figure awhole lot out to just like get
something out there, and itmakes it pretty easy to use
their help pages like reallygreat.
And we have recently signed onto be affiliates with them
because we've decided we canendorse them, and so you can use
our code T E A five zero atAlitucacom for 50% off your
first month, so in addition tolike some opportunities to like
(16:08):
try it.
They're really low cost as well.
And then they also offer like.
If you like it, after the firstmonth and you want to sign up
for like an annual, there's adiscount to it.
So they've been really fair andthey're always upgrading their
features.
I recently got an email thatsays they're going to start
allowing for like videorecording, so that may be
something that we can upgradeinto for our podcast.
So what I like about it isthey're always upgrading their
(16:30):
features.
Their help is really useful.
Like.
It's just a product that wesort of tried in the very
beginning and we've since cometo really appreciate.
It does take a lot of theguesswork out of a lot of things
that we're just we're not techpeople in many ways, you know,
and we don't want to spend allour time figuring it out.
Speaker 3 (16:46):
So now I'm going to throw a question at you.
Yeah, yeah, I want folks to getthe ethics from this, right,
Because you know you're outthere, right, and I.
One of the things I wrote downis like why podcast, right?
So if your client finds you, ifpotential clients find you,
then what?
We just had a case come beforethe board about this guy doing
TikToks and he went over theline no boundaries, right, so
(17:08):
all of these things.
So I want to drop that there,just so that I want you guys to
stay with what you're going totalk about.
But I also want to hear moreabout okay, how do you decide on
how much to say, what to editwhen people reach out?
Would people reach out?
Can they reach out?
All the things?
Speaker 2 (17:28):
Yeah, yeah, sure, and you know what's so funny.
We did a couple of episodesspecifically on that in the very
, very beginning, because Karenmade us do yeah.
Karen's one of the most funpeople I've ever met in that she
made one of our first episodesbe an ethics episode, where we
talk You'll hear Jasmine reallynot be quite on board with it at
(17:50):
the very beginning.
but she came around.
It was pretty cool.
Yes, so we actually talk if youare interested in that.
We have a couple of episodesspecifically about that.
We do a deep dive.
We actually go into the ACAcode of ethics.
Little ethics police here goesinto the ACA Code of Ethics and,
like she has highlighted, likeevery single one that pertains
(18:12):
to the podcast that potentiallypertains of it, I would say,
theme is incredibly important.
When you think about ethics ofwhatever kind of content you
want to put out there, whetherit be a podcast or an Instagram
account or a TikTok, whatever Becareful of sticking to your
(18:35):
central theme.
We're really careful notnecessarily to give advice.
We focus primarily on personalexperience and I think that
comes across really clearly.
Like, for instance, we did anepisode with Sina Moran.
Sina Moran is a counselor,actually out in Florida.
She has BetterHelp experience.
(18:57):
She worked for BetterHelp for acouple of years, I think, and
so I remember being reallynervous about that episode
specifically because I was like,oh my God, betterhelp is gonna
like come and get us.
They're gonna sue us right,because we're gonna put out this
thing.
That's obviously not gonna bepainting them in a very nice
(19:19):
light, but we looked, yeah, like, if you're curious about it,
check your ethics consult, doall the things that you learned
in grad school.
But we looked like, if you'recurious about it, check your
ethics consult, do all thethings that you learned in grad
school.
But we ended up doing theepisode and I think we focused
only on her experience and Ithink that's really like global.
Speaker 1 (19:36):
Yeah, about it yeah.
Speaker 2 (19:38):
Being very specific and sticking to your content,
like stick to the script, in alot of ways.
Speaker 1 (19:46):
Another thing that we , when we were doing the ethics
of a podcast episode initially,we talked about like first we
need to talk through the ethics.
Like that I felt like was acrucial part of our development
process.
Like we actually recorded thatvery early on.
We recorded that before we evendid an interview.
We just started published itlater.
But it was essentially Jasmineand I going through an ethical
(20:08):
decision-making model step bystep, and we just earned the mic
on and then talk through theethical decision-making model.
We even talked about differentethical decision-making models
and like how we wanted to walkthrough this.
We pulled out the CA code ofethics, we pulled out some of
the laws and we just talkedthrough them and explored like
the questions that we need toexplore, which is like how would
(20:32):
this impact our clients, howwould this impact the profession
, what is our mission and whatis our intention right and how
should we deal with certainissues?
I mean, certain things werepretty obvious and that is, for
example, like talking aboutclients.
That's obviously not somethingthat we do.
We're really conscious ofconfidentiality and maintaining
confidentiality.
We don't ask our guests anyquestions about client specific
(20:55):
stories.
We again stay, like Jasmine wassaying, really focused on their
personal experience, like thisis your story as a professional.
It's not really about whateverclient.
And even when we're talkingabout our own experiences in
some of our intros, where we'rereally diving into, like the
moment to moment, things thatwe're learning, even if it was
again maybe related to anexperience in a session, we're
(21:17):
protecting confidentiality atall times and being really
deliberate and intentional aboutthat, protecting aspects of our
(21:50):
guests' confidentiality in thesense allowing for our guests to
have out things right.
Like sometimes we've had tothrow things away or redo things
entirely because we hold acertain ethical standard about
we're not going to release thisIf you said like, hey, I don't
want that out there or I don'twant that to be talked about,
we're going to delete it becausethat's our standard.
And that's something that wetalked through when we were
working through the ethicaldecision-making model, before we
made this decision.
And then we also talked aboutlike, how do we want to handle
(22:11):
it?
You know, do we tell ourclients, do we not tell our
clients?
What's the line?
Because are we advertising?
Are we soliciting?
Right, what is this?
And we wrestled a lot with thatand I think the thing that we
came up with.
You know and you can listen tokind of our episode about this
to get to basically how weanswered some of these questions
.
I think the point for you ifyou want to come up with a
(22:34):
podcast is the point of ourethics.
Our ethical code is that youwrestle with these questions, is
that you ask yourself how mightthis impact a client if they
heard it?
How do I want that to behandled?
You know what are myresponsibilities.
You know we sort of came down onthe side that it's important to
be transparent, but it's alsoimportant to not be soliciting
(22:55):
and not be advertising, becauseour ideal listener is not
clients.
We're not talking to peopleabout mental health issues the
way that maybe somebody elsewho's doing a mental health
podcast might be.
I think in some cases there aremental health podcasts out
there that are really about likehey, let's learn about mental
health concepts and wellness andso on and so forth, and they're
intending to talk to thegeneral public.
(23:15):
Our ideal listener is notnecessarily the general public.
Our ideal listener is othermental health professionals, is
people who are consideringbecoming mental health
professionals, and so we reallytry to stay connected to that by
focusing on that audience piece.
If that makes sense, yeah.
Speaker 2 (23:33):
So, and which is why we talk about our origin story
and why it's so important to dothat prep work prior, to always
remember who you're talking to.
Like always remember who youraudience is.
If you do want to start amental health podcast, that is
more you know, learning.
Like you want to spread mentalhealth information, like our
friend Candice Frazier in thecouch next door, she does that.
(23:55):
She did a whole thing on, likethe Enneagram and like all this
other stuff like the centralthemes that she kept noticing in
counseling.
But, again, know who youraudience is and stick to your
motivation, like our motivationis to inform future and current
counselors on the professionitself.
(24:17):
Like, remember what yourmotivation is and if something
feels weird, delete it, justdelete it.
Speaker 1 (24:29):
Just cut it out, right, and we're like, right, we
can really just cut this crapright out or not publish it too,
like we then can also reallyreflect on was there anything
that we need to be reallythoughtful about not publishing
or deleting or editing becauseit comes across a certain way or
we're worried about how itcomes across.
So we just constantly go backto it, and I think that's the
part of ethics, that is whatwe're encouraged to do
(24:51):
professionally.
It's just like constantly goback to it and constantly
reflect, like not just like ourpodcast in general, but maybe
each individual episode, eachindividual conversation, and as
long as we're continuing thatdialogue with each other and
reflecting on that, then we'redoing our ethical due diligence
(25:13):
that, then, we're doing ourethical due diligence.
Speaker 3 (25:15):
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Speaker 1 (26:00):
Okay, jasmine, you want to talk about the good, the
good.
Always Talk about the good, thebad and the ugly guys.
We'll try to give you somelittle details.
Speaker 2 (26:09):
We're just going to, just gonna go.
Yeah, we'll go through thempretty quickly because we're
very verbose, which is why wehave a podcast.
Okay, so number one we get tohang out more, which is great
for me because I am actuallycurrently in wisconsin and my
partner travels for work he's atravel nurse and I don't have to
be as lonely because I get tohang out with Karen literally
(26:31):
every week for multiple hours aweek, so we get to be less
lonely.
It's had a really positiveimpact on our now long distance
friendship and yeah, so yeah.
Speaker 1 (26:44):
So I want to note on this piece too like I think it's
a decision that you want tothink about when you're going to
.
If you're going to develop apodcast, like, are you going to
do it by yourself?
Are you going to do it withsomebody else?
The truth is that if you'regoing to do it with somebody
else like you, you really needto like that person, because
we're going to get to this, butyou spend a lot of time together
, and so if Jasmine and I didn'tget along, like if we didn't
(27:04):
have ways of navigating ourfriendship and working together
because that's what this is then, like this would be miserable,
you know, and so prepareyourself for that.
Like, are you sure you want tosee this person way more than
you do already?
Because, like our friendshipused to be like, oh, we'd get
together, we'd have wine, we'dhang out, but like now, we talk
way more because we're doingthis project together.
(27:26):
And so if you're going to dothis with someone else, then
make sure you actually like thatperson.
Speaker 2 (27:37):
Yes, and also know that if you are going to do it
by yourself, we'll kind of getinto this in a second, but if
you are going to do this byyourself, it is a time
commitment.
It's not that the time goesaway, you're just doing more.
So while I think there'sdrawbacks to having like two
people doing one podcast, Ithink ultimately it is pretty
beneficial and it also keeps usboth ethically in check.
Like, for instance, if somebodygoes off the rails on a podcast
or on one of our episodes, likeyou know, we can discuss it
(27:59):
later.
Like another thing, you need tohave really good conflict
resolution skills and know howto handle tough stuff because
you aren't going to agree and infact sometimes you won't agree
on air.
So you need to be able to knowthat.
Okay, it is a super awesomecreative outlet.
It's just something differentthan individual client work,
(28:19):
because that gets a littletedious.
Sometimes I see about 25 to 28,I guess that's a big range
Clients per week and I neededsomething different.
So that has really scratched anitch for me and Karen I think
as well, because all thedifferent creative things we get
to do art and design.
We both kind of designed ourlogo, our Therapy T logo.
(28:43):
That was really fun.
And then we come up with postsand stuff like that.
We're not super great atposting, but you know we're much
better at writing.
Karen does a lot of, so so muchwork and I'm so thankful for
her for doing so many scriptsand show notes and Alitu now has
some functions for that as faras like transcripts are
concerned.
So that's really awesomeTitling episodes.
(29:06):
We have like full onconversation sometimes just
about the titles, because wereally enjoy coming up with cute
, kitschy little titles.
Ah, persona and acting.
It's kind of like yourcounseling persona, but like you
know, everybody knows what Imean Like there's your
counseling persona and thenthere's like you counseling
(29:30):
persona and then there's likeyou, not the counselor.
Just you know.
The same deal goes forpodcasting.
I am not this person.
I'm a little bit this person,but not fully this person when I
am off of the mic Not fullythis person.
Yes, yeah, so that's beenpretty fun for me.
Yes, yeah, so that's beenpretty fun for me.
Speaker 1 (29:51):
I don't really care, I'm not, I'm not really, I'm not
curious about it, like we.
We did talk about how it wasimportant for us and our podcast
and the dynamic of ourrelationship to be authentic and
, to be honest, truly I think weare authentic.
I mean we're authentic andthere are definitely real
moments in our relationshipwhere we argue or we disagree or
we snippet each other.
(30:12):
If you've heard some of ourepisodes, you can tell there are
moments where we're like allright, that's enough, and we
literally talk to each otherthat way.
But at the same time, we'realso trying to be productive in
this conversation and a part ofour dynamic is for the show, if
that makes sense.
So, yes, it's authentic, butthere's also a quality of it
that is for the show.
(30:33):
So even if, like, we'resometimes recording episodes and
we did not have a good day thatday, I had a shitty day, I'm
not in a good mood, or viceversa for Jasmine, and we still
have to show up and be a certainway in this interview, being
prepared for that is importantand it's something that I've
never been very good at.
So it's something that's hardfor me, but it is another outlet
(30:54):
.
Yeah, I think.
So that kind of goes to yourpoint, right?
Speaker 3 (30:59):
We've got a question what kind of a disclaimer do you
put out there for counselorswith podcasts that shares mental
health information withprospective clients?
What measures should be inplace to make it clear the
podcast is not counseling, andwhat measures should be in place
if existing clients arelistening to the podcast?
Is there something placed inthe counselor's informed consent
(31:20):
?
Speaker 1 (31:21):
Yes, yes, when we talked about the ethics, we
decided that we would usewritten disclaimers in our show
notes.
So every episode has a writtendisclaimer within the show notes
of that episode.
When we get our website off theground, our website will
include various writtendisclaimers.
And then also, we talked aboutadding to our informed consent
with clients.
(31:41):
So we talked about how we'dword that to make sure that it
doesn't feel or look likeadvertising, but again like
informed consent, and insteadlike hey, this is a thing that's
out there.
If that's something that youwant to talk to me about, you're
not the audience, I'm nottalking about you, but if it's
something you want to talk to meabout, let's talk about it in
session.
So, yes, we do include that,and I think you would have to
(32:03):
probably do even more of that.
This is just feeling about it.
If you are talking to clientsin your episodes, like in your
podcast, if it is kind of aboutmental health, in the sense that
you're talking about whatpeople should or shouldn't do,
then I think it is really moreimportant not just to have a
disclaimer in writing, but maybeto have a disclaimer audio like
embedded within the episode.
(32:24):
We decided not to do that.
But I've heard other therapyrelated podcasts where they have
the disclaimer in the verybeginning of the episode in the
audio that says this is nottherapy, because then they're
saying like they're talkingabout therapy issue, therapeutic
issues that maybe you wouldtalk to your therapist about
specifically.
So hopefully that answers thequestion.
Speaker 2 (32:45):
And one thing that's really cool, especially in Alitu
like if you have a one stopAlitu Zencaster I mean I think
most of them do this Like whenyou build the episode, you don't
have to, you can just recordthat on your own.
Like you just record that andthen that's good.
Like that is good forever.
You can just put that in thebeginning, yeah, and you don't
have to worry about that.
(33:06):
So, as long as it's like in thebeginning, if you do, if again,
if you're feeling icky about it, just go ahead and do it.
Like, just go ahead and do it.
If you question it at all, justgo ahead and do it, and it can
be really simple and fast.
So but you can just they makeit really easy.
You can just put it in thebeginning and then you'll never
have to worry about it again, aslong as you're making sure it's
in the order that it's supposedto be in, correct, okay,
(33:28):
awesome.
So, speaking of editing, I likeediting and I have to.
We have to do quite a bit of it.
I don't know if this is good,but I've like listened
differently now, I think, topodcasts.
Like once you start podcasting,you can like hear things.
But that's been really helpfulbecause it helps us kind of
build our thing that we send outto counselors like Kate, we
(33:50):
told you it'd be awesome if youhad a mic and headphones because
that makes editing a lot easier.
But that's something that'sbeen really good for me editing
and you'll spend quite a bit oftime doing it, so it's not crazy
, especially with an all in one.
It's not crazy, but there is alearning curve, for sure, and
(34:11):
again, you have to listen tothings like ethical
considerations throughoutwhatever you're talking about.
Yeah, so it's a cool skill tolearn.
Cool skill to learn.
I like it a lot.
Speaker 1 (34:19):
Another cool thing that we really like about doing
this podcast is that weultimately get to reap the same
benefits as our listeners, inthe sense that, like, we're also
learning about the profession,we're also learning about the
various options and paths into,you know, the field, and we also
feel so much less alone than wedid 18 months ago, you know,
(34:40):
when it comes to, like, how wefeel about our work and how we
feel about what we do.
We have had such great guestsand great opportunities having
conversations with other mentalhealth professionals.
That has really helped usrealize, like, oh, we're not the
only ones who worry about thator who feel that way or who have
had those experiences, andthat's something that we want
for our listeners and it'ssomething that we get just kind
(35:02):
of by doing this, and so that'skind of cool.
And we also have had a lot oflike really cool or at least I
have sort of really interestingself-reflection opportunities
through the conversations thatwe're having with people, and so
that's been really rewarding.
So, I think, being able toreally get the kinds of benefits
(35:25):
that we're hoping that ourlisteners get we're getting them
too and that's been really cool.
And so also connecting that tolike networking, like we're
making so many cool new friendsand like we genuinely like the
people that we are interviewingand talking to and we genuinely
feel like we could hang out withthem, and so we've built a
network through this podcast andthat's been a really cool
(35:46):
benefit.
I think we both really werehoping, and are still hoping,
that this will be a passiveincome revenue generator, but
when we get to the bad and theugly, we'll explain to you that
it's not right now, but that'sthe potential and the hope for
the future and we still likehold on to that deeply.
Speaker 2 (36:06):
Yeah, so setting some realistic expectations.
If you hit it big, you hit itbig.
That's great, but everybodyknows that the viral lottery is
and whatever the algorithm islike, something could explain
that to me.
That'd be great, but it's veryup in the air whether or not
you're going to hit it big.
We've had a lot of slow growth.
Like Karen said, we spent aboutsix months prior to even
(36:28):
publishing the first episodejust like planning and figuring
out what we wanted to do,figuring out how fancy our
microphones actually needed tobe and how fancy our headphones
actually needed to be.
Speaker 1 (36:41):
So that's time and the importance of headphones,
because I think the first fewepisodes I was like I'm not
doing headphones and thenJasmine was like I'm about to
meet you, yeah.
Speaker 2 (36:50):
Fucking headphones.
If you're going to do this,invest in a nice pair of
headphones.
Speaker 3 (36:54):
I highly recommend.
Speaker 2 (36:55):
I also highly recommend investing in a very
nice microphone.
Yeti makes a Nano.
That's actually reallyaffordable and super
approachable, but you could alsogo with like a more basic one,
but don't just rely on yourAirPods.
Okay, so let's get to the badreally fast.
No one likes to talk about this,but this has been incredibly
time consuming.
We've been planning for a year.
We've been planning for sixmonths and then published for a
(37:19):
year or coming up on a year,like I said in April.
So it has a pretty big timecommitment.
Karen and I meet.
We're all about transparency,so I'll just let you know.
Karen and I meet on Fridays.
We have two slots forinterviews.
We schedule two hours perinterview slot, so that means
sometimes it's four to fivehours on Fridays, just
(37:40):
interviewing, just interviewing,and then we do editing whenever
we can.
Each interview is anywherebetween an hour to an hour and a
half, so editing you can expectat tack on Minimum.
Well, unless you get reallygood, unless you have have
allotoo.
They've got some really nicefilters now.
So yeah, so it does cut down onthe time.
Speaker 1 (38:01):
I would say at least 30 minutes extra talking about
yeah, on top of however long, ontop of the actual episode.
Speaker 2 (38:08):
So if your episode is an hour, you can expect minimum
one hour and 30 minutes ofediting.
So I mean, that's already twoand a half hours of your time.
Speaker 1 (38:20):
That doesn't include the recording that we do for
intros.
Speaker 2 (38:24):
We also do intros that are about 20 minutes long,
yeah, and we edit those.
Speaker 1 (38:29):
We spent time recording our intros and our
outros, all of that we just likeadd in.
I would say from like a buildperspective, because I do
Jasmine does maybe a lion'sshare of the nitty gritty,
editing and I tend to do a lotmore of the sort of show note
writing, so the stuff that getsadded in, where it's like
listing the resources thateverybody mentioned and building
(38:51):
the actual episode out withinthe software.
That probably takes me just ifthe episode is edited, the audio
is edited and we're talkingabout about a 20 minute intro
and an hour and a half interview, and I'm going in and I'm just
like building it out, I'mwriting the show notes, I'm
adding all that stuff, I'msetting it up to be launched and
to be scheduled.
That process alone takesanywhere from 30 minutes to an
(39:14):
hour and that just depends onkind of how much I remember,
quite frankly, what we talkedabout.
I like to go back and re-listenand make sure I got the
resources correct Maybe an hour,depending upon the complexity
of the resources, because I liketo make sure that I'm being
accurate, like if an interviewguest says the name of the book
and it's not actually the nameof the book.
(39:34):
Then I go back and I make sureI get the correct name of the
book for the resource list, sothat process can take a little
bit of time.
So I would say maybe, based onwhat you're saying and what I'm
saying, the entirety of oneepisode is going to take an
additional anywhere four to fivehours of additional time, right
?
Speaker 2 (39:52):
So it's a lot.
Right.
We split it into two, so thinkabout that.
Our podcasts are also prettycurated.
At this point we're picky aboutmost things, but if yours is
more free form, maybe it takesless time.
If you think it takes that muchtime, add at least 30 minutes
to the time you think it's goingto take, because you never know
Tech issues have happened.
(40:14):
It can be pretty time consuming.
Speaker 1 (40:16):
None of this time stuff we're talking about.
That's just the episode.
There's also time that's goingto go into, like Jasmine creates
all of our social media posts,so there's time that it takes to
actually create those posts forsocial media actually
responding to emails, engagingwith emails, reviewing analytics
, like talking about that.
Just the additionalconversations we have outside
(40:38):
where we're also talking aboutbusiness decisions or you know,
oh, we want to get more guestsin this direction versus that
direction.
So the additional conversationsthat we have outside of just
recording related things andthen also the scheduling of
guests takes time right.
Speaker 2 (40:55):
And we have streamlined.
Speaker 1 (40:56):
We have streamlined we've changed our system, but it
still takes time.
Right, and we have streamlined.
We have streamlined, we'vechanged our system, but it still
takes time.
Like having conversations ofvetting guests.
I spend time.
I don't just let anybody be aguest, I make sure that they're
actually a professional.
That was one of the things thatwe talked about in our ethics
discussion.
We wanted to make sure we set abar for who we would talk to,
(41:16):
and so I check all of your youknow credits before I let you be
on our podcast.
Like I go on to BHEC and I makesure that this person is
actually licensed in the waythat they say that they're
licensed.
I check their website, I checktheir psychology today, like I
make sure they are who they saythey are before we go ahead and
like allow this person to beinterviewed and to be on our
(41:37):
podcast To have our platform.
So we spend time doing thatpre-screening as well, and that
really depends on how easy theinformation is defined, but I
would say per guest we'retalking about another half hour
or so, yeah.
Speaker 2 (41:48):
It's quite a bit of an added weight when it comes to
the mental load of things.
Again, it's the time commitment, but it's also coming up with
organizational planning tools.
Yes, it's just like constantlyplaying in the background, like
some of my time off has to bescheduled to edit and I have to
keep that in the back of my headwhen I'm making plans with my
partner or something,remembering what's next.
(42:09):
Karen's really good at that.
I'm not very good at that, soI'm thankful for Karen for that.
Remembering what people saidand what people's names are
things like that.
If you're not doing aninterview style podcast, that's
not quite as important.
It is a constant learningprocess, like learning how to do
(42:30):
Google Calendar and make itshareable and make it so that
people can schedule themselveslike self-scheduling, so we
don't have to do that anymore.
The forms, like it's a reallygreat resource, but if you don't
know how to use the Googlesuite, I'd start learning
because it makes things a loteasier, especially if you are by
yourself.
There's also been a lot ofinstances of emergency pivots
we've had to rerecord, like.
(42:52):
There has been one episode thatwe recorded in the very
beginning that experienced thislovely thing called audio drift
and I will never forget it.
It was such a great episode and, guess what, we cannot use it.
So that person has just gottenback from Peru and we're like
still trying to like schedulehim, and so that's a thing that
goes on in the background.
(43:12):
But, yes, we will have torerecord his episode completely.
There's guest tech issues aslike.
Sometimes people haveheadphones, but there's like a
feedback because the mic's notworking or something, or there's
a baby in the back or somethinglike that.
Like, you have to kind ofaccount for those things as well
.
Yeah, the drift phenomenon andthe emotional devastation that I
(43:35):
again trauma, we can't let itgo.
Yeah, yeah, lastation that Iagain trauma, we can't let it go
.
Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1 (43:39):
Last, thing on like, oh, go ahead.
No, I was going to just say thesame thing you were, which was,
like, once you decide thatyou're going to do this, there
is like a pressure to stay thecourse.
Right, you've decided to dothis, you started releasing
episodes and like you've got tokeep to it.
And something that you know, Ilistened to and I'd heard about
(44:02):
when we were in the planningstage was that you know, a lot
of podcasts fail because they'renot diligent in their frequency
, and so something that Jasmineand I decided early on was like,
what is our frequency?
We need to be realistic aboutwhat we can do, because we are
both practicing therapists.
You know we have practices, wehave partners, we have dogs,
like we have lives, and so let'sbe realistic.
Like this is not going to be adaily podcast.
(44:23):
That is not going to happen.
So, like, what is a frequencythat we can honestly commit to?
And that's a thing that, likewe didn't really know what to
expect, right?
So we picked a frequency thatsounded like realistic and the
reality has been is that it isdoable, but it is hard, it is
actually hard, and then there'sthe pressure to kind of keep
(44:45):
going, because we already pickedthis frequency and we got to
keep going because at a certainpoint now we have, like, people
listening to us actually, asopposed to just like sending
this out into the ether andnobody really cares if we stop
doing this.
But at a certain point we havelisteners and we feel like we
got to be, you know, showing upfor you.
Speaker 2 (45:03):
It is a commitment and sometimes I'm not going to
lie, I just want to quit.
But again, something to thinkabout whenever you are creating
a podcast.
If it were just me, I'm notvery good, like I'm not very
good at delayed gratification,right, so I need someone who's
going to be like no, this takestime.
We're going to keep doing thisbecause we like it.
(45:24):
It's benefiting both of us andeventually it will, you know, be
what we want it to be.
But if you're like me andyou're not a great delayed
discounter, know that aboutyourself going into it Because,
like I said, we have been doingthis a year and guess what?
I still work full-time.
It's a bummer, but I still workfull-time because this has not
(45:45):
generated what you probablythink it's going to generate,
which brings us to the.
It costs real money to do this,which is why everyone if you
are really interested in Alitu,everyone should use our code,
because you'll get money off,not like us, yeah, and even if
you end up not liking Alitu, atleast you didn't have to pay
(46:05):
full price to try it.
Speaker 1 (46:06):
Right, like there's literal upfront costs, you know,
associated with like the tech,like my mic, my headphones.
You know, we set up an LLC, youhave to pay for that.
It's not free, right, we'regoing to be building out a
website and then you have to payhosting fees and all the taxes
associated with it.
So there's like literal upfrontcosts and I think we did where
we could like manage that andsort of stretch it out to test,
(46:28):
and I think there's ways to dothat.
But even so, for us it's abouta thousand dollars is, like, I
would say, a reasonable initialstartup cost for the physical
tech, the audio tech, like thetech of it.
And then, you know, for Jasmineand I both, like this is a
hustle.
Right, this is a side hustle.
It's a side hustle that makes$0 and costs money right now
that's what's truly ugly aboutit.
(46:50):
But it is a side hustle.
It's our goal is that it willeventually be, you know, a
passive income source.
But the fact that it's a sidehustle for both Jasmine and I
kind of feels icky sometimes,like it feels murky and icky.
And so there's this tension forboth of us between our mission,
our message which is, you know,it goes back to like the
(47:12):
challenges of being a mentalhealth practitioner and then
monetization.
So if our whole motivation forthis is to be real, build
community, give away informationfor free, but then we also need
to make money to justify thetime away from our practices and
our lives and our partners, andthe fact is that the amount of
time that we spend on this everyweek is going to look like
(47:32):
anywhere from two to three tosix hours, depending upon how
many interviews we have thatweek, and so we have to be at a
certain point.
We need to generate money forthis to be sustainable.
And so how do we balance thattension between the mission and
the monetization?
And it's hard and we stillhaven't figured it out, and
that's what kind of makes itugly about this is we are having
(47:54):
to try to figure out what areour advertising and monetization
choices, that then, how dothose interact with our own
values and our ethics, and themission for the podcast.
And so it's been reallyuncomfortable, actually, and
really challenging, I think, forboth of us to figure out the
answers to those questions andwe didn't really anticipate how
that would feel when we startedthis.
We didn't anticipate how thatwould trigger when we started
(48:17):
this and we both absolutely hatesocial media, like anti-social
media people, and the truth isjust really hard social media
for this thing to come up withposts and self promote and, you
know, do stuff that like talksabout how awesome we are and
that's not really who we are ingeneral.
And so you know that part hasbeen really hard.
Speaker 2 (48:45):
How to balance that.
Do you have more on that,jasmine?
I don't like social media and Idon't like that.
I'm part of it.
I mean just like chasing thealgorithm right, like doing CEO
whatever, seo whatever, whateverI don't know, and like it just
contradicts my like own.
If you want to get off ofFacebook, like me, that's no
longer an option.
Luck is still getting you ifyou, because there's no other
(49:08):
way.
But if you do want to do thatand we're kind of exploring that
right now to cope with this Ifyou do not want to use free
methods of advertising foryourself or getting your name
out there, then you're going tohave to be creative in how
you're advertising for yourselfand getting yourself out there,
and it's probably not going tobe as free as social media.
(49:29):
So, yeah, like it's a constantlike values, test and check.
I think of like I don't reallywant to do this because I don't
want to.
I don't like social media, butit is what it is.
So not being successful rightaway I've already kind of
touched on that.
It's a commitment and you'renot going to be very good in the
(49:50):
very beginning, and Karen and II think the time commitment has
definitely gotten lower themore that we do it because it's
a lot more streamlined.
But the initial commitment I'ma perfectionist.
I struggle with it.
High anxiety.
Here we are, and I mean hours,hours, hours spent on making a
(50:11):
not perfect episode, like havingto just put that out there with
my name on it.
You're find a way to cope, yeah, cause it's going to happen.
You're going to do some stuffand it's not going to sound very
good.
Speaker 1 (50:24):
Real listen to your old episodes and you'll be like
man, those sound like crap andit's just triggers that again
and you just have to go and dealwith it Right.
So like it brings up that senseof like being kind of not good
or being subject to criticism.
Speaker 2 (50:41):
You know, imposter syndrome.
There are mental healthpodcasts out there that are
freaking killing it.
And here we are, just like withthis original idea.
It's a good idea, but I wouldsay the biggest thing for me is
coming back to that originalmission, like the thing that has
been so helpful.
One, karen, but two, just like.
(51:01):
Why did I start this in thefirst place?
Am I still being helpful tosome people?
And the truth is we are, likewe have gotten feedback that has
said, oh my God, this is sohelpful, like I'm so glad we had
this conversation, I'm so gladsomeone is talking about this
and that's our payment right now.
That's how I define successright now.
(51:24):
You know, podcasting is a bitlike counseling in that regard.
Like we talk about this all thetime in the podcast and it
feels sacrilegious to say it outloud.
And if you want to know moreabout what we both think, about
what I'm about to say,definitely check us out.
You don't get in this for themoney and podcasting counts as
that.
Speaker 3 (51:43):
Yeah, so.
So tell me, karen and Jasmine,we're coming up on time.
If folks wanted to reach out toyou with questions, what's the
best way for them to contact you?
Email.
Email is the best way for themto contact you.
Speaker 1 (51:57):
Email.
Email is the best way.
Therapytpod at gmailcom.
Speaker 2 (52:04):
TherapyTPod at gmailcom, not podcast.
Speaker 1 (52:06):
We're pretty good at responding.
We also get like and we'vetalked about this in some of our
episodes Like, if you just wantto say nice things to us, we
absolutely love comments on thelistening platforms, like
Spotify and Apple podcasts andlike any of the social media
posts that we do on Instagramand Facebook.
But if you have like a question,then, yeah, please email us and
(52:29):
we're totally willing to answerquestions, not just about like
podcasting, like if you want tobe a guest, but if you just
literally have a question aboutthe mic that we use or any of
that like, we're happy to shareall those details.
We use different mics anddifferent headphones and share
all of that with anybody.
We're fine and we're going tobe doing another episode
ourselves.
So, yes, where we're going togo a little bit more in depth
(52:49):
about what we talked about today, because, as Jasmine mentioned,
we're coming up on our one yearanniversary of episodes and so
we're going to do a specialanniversary episode and the
theme of it is what do we wishwe had known about podcasting
before we started podcasting,and so we're going to go a
little bit in depth about a lotof the stuff that we shared with
you guys here today, maybe evengoing into some of the nitty
(53:11):
gritty about like our tech andlike our actual fail moments,
cause we've had multiples andthey've been great experiences.
Speaker 2 (53:20):
We also I'm pretty active on our Instagram, so if
you want to just like, dm me, gofor it, and if you want to be
on the show, feel free to sendus an email on therapytpod at
gmailcom.
If you have something that youreally want to share, definitely
listen to a couple of ourepisodes prior to, but if you
want to be on the show, we'realways looking for new guests.
A lot of this is about buildingcommunity for us and making
(53:43):
therapists feel less alone andmaking networking a lot easier,
so definitely reach out, please.
Speaker 3 (53:50):
You're awesome and thank you so much for sharing so
much.
I mean that was great.
I mean I do this too, and itjust so much of what you say.
Yes, it's good, but there areparts that are bad and there are
parts that are ugly.
So thank you for being soauthentic and transparent with
us.
This was really good and Iappreciate you letting folks DM
(54:12):
you and reach out and ask morequestions.
Speaker 2 (54:14):
So thank you everyone .
Y'all are great, Thank you.
Feel free to reach out.
Speaker 3 (54:19):
Awesome.
All right, thank you guys.
Thanks for joining.
I'm Dr Kate Walker and this isour expert webinar of the month.
Don't forget we've got morecoming up, so check out the
calendar on the Facebook page.
Texas Counselors Creating BadassBusinesses and I will see you
guys soon.
Businesses and I will see youguys soon.
(54:40):
Thanks for listening to BadassTherapists Building Practices
that Thrive.
Be sure to follow or subscribeso you never miss an episode.
And don't forget our exclusive2025 summer intensives are
filling up fast.
Whether you're looking to growyour income, simplify your
systems or just feel less alonein private practice, we've got
(55:02):
you.
Learn more atkatewalkertrainingcom.
Slash summer25, and I'll seeyou next week.
I'm Dr Kate Walker.
Thank you so much for listening.
Thank you to the lovely RidgelyWalker for the interesting
(55:23):
facts about me that we use inour introduction, and do me a
favor when you get a second,please like, share and subscribe
and write us a review.
That's really how we get pickedup by other RSS feeds and we
get this information out to themental health badasses who need
it.
Thanks again, and keep savingthe world with excellent therapy
(55:45):
.
You.
And the truth is it's really hard for social media
for this thing to come up withposts and self-promote and, you
know, do stuff that like talksabout how awesome we are and
that's not really who we are ingeneral, and so you know that
part has been really hard.
How to balance that.
Speaker 2 (00:27):
Welcome to Badass Therapists, building practices
that thrive, where it's allabout working smarter, not
harder.
Now here's your host, dr KateWalker who loves a good
fireplace.
Speaker 3 (00:45):
What's really happening behind the scenes in
the therapy world?
Today, I'm joined by the hostsof the Therapy Tea podcast for a
raw and insightful conversationabout what it means to show up
as a mental health professionalin today's climate, whether
you're a grad student, newpractitioner or seasoned
clinician.
This episode is the tea youdidn't know you needed.
Now let's get to work.
(01:06):
Hey, I'm Dr Kate Walker,welcome.
I'm super excited about this onebecause these folks are legit
podcasters, like they're thereal deal, and so the fact that
I talked them into even puttingan ethics component in here like
okay, we're going to make thisa CE, they're going to.
(01:27):
So they came up with the titlethe good, the bad and the ugly
and I love that because thiswill be turned into a podcast
and I'm curious like I'm here asa fangirl because I want to
find out everything they do, andthey had me as a guest on last
week and it was super fun andyou guys, you just made me feel
so comfortable.
So I definitely want to knowhow you guys make this work and
(01:51):
I sent you some questions fromour Texas counselors creating
badass businesses Facebook page.
But other than that, jasmine,I'm going to turn it over to you
.
Oh my gosh.
Speaker 2 (02:00):
I'm not used to being by myself.
I just called her.
I don't know where she is.
We just talked on the phone.
We'll get started.
So the way we're going to kindof do this is, karen and I have
created sort of like an outline,as proven in my other CE
experiences where I'm teaching aCE or I'm presenting a CE.
I'm not very good at it, sowe'll watch it for you, cool.
(02:23):
I'm not very good at it, sowe'll watch it for you.
Cool, cool, cool.
Hey, yeah, I'm Jasmine andKaren and we host Therapy Tea.
We started our podcast about ayear ago.
Our first episode in April isgoing to be our one year
anniversary episode, sodefinitely make sure to check
that out.
I do want to also note we havean hour today, so that means
(02:44):
that we're probably not going toget through everything,
although if Karen doesn't showup, maybe we will.
If you are interested inlearning more, we're going to do
more of a deep dive on ouranniversary episode, like I said
.
So just follow us on prettymuch any platform that you're
listening on, like I think we'reon Pandora, we're definitely on
Spotify, itunes, we're on allthe things.
(03:11):
So definitely follow us and youcan see our anniversary episode
, where we'll talk more indetail about what's going on.
I want to start just with ourorigin story.
There she is.
Yay, karen's here, oh my God.
Speaker 1 (03:25):
I know I figured it out now.
Was I using the wrong link?
Speaker 2 (03:28):
I don't know.
Speaker 1 (03:29):
Okay.
Speaker 2 (03:29):
This is Karen.
We're so professional.
Okay.
So, Karen, I was talking.
I've already told them aboutour anniversary episode and why
they should follow us to listento more, but I was starting with
our origin story because it'simportant to know your roots and
why we started this in thefirst place.
That's right.
Speaker 1 (03:47):
You know, one of the things that I want to start with
on our origin story is we metin grad school and we did not
plan on this podcast from thevery beginning.
That was like it evolved, forsure, and we actually share a
lot about just our friendship ingeneral and a little bit of our
podcast origin story withanother therapist.
(04:08):
Her name is Candice Frazier andshe does a podcast as well,
called the Couch Next Door, andwe love her and her podcast.
She came on our podcast as aguest and we did an episode with
her about our friendship andit's I think it's dropping
tomorrow.
So if y'all want to know moreabout that, like definitely tune
into that.
(04:28):
But I think we really just likeI think we were just ranting
one day, drinking wine as you doand ranting about some of the
things that frustrate us asprofessionals, as counselors,
and we both are avid podcastlisteners and it really started
from there, just like well, whatif we had a podcast?
What if we talked about some ofthis and just turned on a mic?
Speaker 2 (04:52):
Right.
Like I mean, how many people ingrad school were like Googling
what should I do?
Or like podcast for counselorsand then getting just a bunch of
, like you know, really curatedpodcasts that talk a lot more
about like educational stuff andnot really like the nitty
gritty of like okay, but likewhat is it actually like to be a
(05:14):
counselor?
Like what is it actually liketo get into this profession?
Like how much am I expected tomake?
What can I even do with this?
Like how do I start a privatepractice?
I mean, you can pay for a bunchof stuff and see a bunch of
stuff that is going to tell youthe how to's, I guess, but not
so much like the real life stuff.
You know the real struggles.
(05:35):
Like we all heard aboutboundaries in grad school, but I
don't know about you.
I didn't know what that meantuntil I actually became a
counselor and then I was like,oh, I need boundaries.
Like I need them.
Oh, I need self-care.
That's not just like somestupid thing that we talked
about every single class.
Like we didn't know all of thatstuff and until it was too late
(05:58):
and we were already counselors.
Speaker 1 (06:01):
And Jasmine, you and I were like sharing those things
with each other just again asconversations and realizing that
maybe it would be useful forand here's what we're coming up
with as we go.
So we we did spend a lot oftime having conversations about
(06:30):
okay, who is this for?
What are we doing, what's ourfocus, what's our intention?
Speaker 2 (06:36):
It means that Karen said Jasmine, we have to have a
focus conversation and we haveto like, do our ideal listener
and do all these weird littleexercises.
Because I was just like a lotof people.
I'm like let's just do apodcast, I don't know, let's
turn on a microphone, let's justdo it.
No, no, that stuff's actuallyvery important and actually very
, very helpful, like the ideallistener.
(06:58):
We came up with a name for her,we came up with her age, like
all that stuff, and honestly, Istill go back and look at it to
this day.
So that's something that Iwould just absolutely recommend,
even though it's kind of a painin the ass.
Speaker 1 (07:12):
Yeah, it sort of seems like maybe gratuitous, but
I thought it was absolutelynecessary for us to figure out
what our focus was going to be.
And so we started by like justscheduling times to talk to each
other regularly about thispodcast idea not just about,
like, life and our friendshipand blah, blah, blah.
But what is this podcast?
(07:33):
What are we doing?
And we set up a shared GoogleDrive.
That was kind of where westarted, like, okay, that way we
can both see the stuff thatwe're typing on.
Because we don't live in thesame area and we weren't able to
get together in person as often.
We started out just like miningour list in our brains of like
okay, if we want to do this,we're going to talk to other
(07:54):
mental health professionals.
Who do we know?
Who are we friends with?
Let's start with a friends listfor people that we can talk to,
and that was also in my mind.
That was like kind of ustesting our idea.
Do we even know enough peoplethat we could even start this?
Or are we ridiculous Because weactually don't know anybody
that would say yes to coming onthis podcast.
(08:15):
So is this idea even worthexploring any more if we can't
come up with enough people orenough content to even start,
and so that, to me, was likereally important, and talking
through this ideal listenerpersona was so important, I
think, for both of us, not justas an exercise, but to make sure
that the two of us are on thesame page, because we're doing a
(08:36):
podcast together.
It's not just one persondeciding everything.
We're doing this together, andso we wanted to really make sure
we're on the same page.
We know what our focus is andwe can, like you said, jasmine,
always go back to that to likemake sure that we're still going
that direction.
And then we came up withquestions like, okay, what would
we talk about with our guests?
Like, what would we say?
(08:57):
What would we ask?
Speaker 2 (08:58):
Yeah, and I think we are not professional
interviewers, as it turns out,and another thing that we
learned pretty early on is likenatural counseling ability
translates well into podcasting.
However, if you're doing aninterview style, I would also
(09:21):
recommend maybe just listeningto like investigative reporting
interviewer podcasts, like thosestory series where they
investigate something.
I remember listening to thoseand then like writing down,
maybe not questions, but kind oflike where the conversation
went, just like brainstormingand really mindfully paying
attention.
Because I didn't get my degreein journalism, because I didn't
(09:44):
get my degree in journalism.
Speaker 1 (09:45):
Well, I don't piggyback off of that, jasmine,
because we did try to listen toa bunch of different kinds of
podcasts that were interviewstyle.
I listened to like celebrityinterview ones too, because we
both knew we wanted this podcastto have a certain vibe and that
not be overly investigative orserious and instead be more
casual and relatable, and sothat was another thing I was
(10:05):
like looking at.
Like how does more than oneperson interview one person,
cause it's not again just one ofus interviewing one person,
it's both of us.
How do we make sure that wehave a dynamic?
How does that even look whentwo or three people are
interviewing one person?
How does that flow?
And so, like we did spend a lotof time doing all of that
before we even turned on a mic,yeah, so, speaking of, turned on
(10:28):
a mic, we had to, oh yeah.
Speaker 3 (10:31):
So how did you guys cause?
Your Google form was amazing.
Right, as one of your guests,there was a Google form and had
me fill out a lot of thingsahead of time.
So I was prepped, you wereprepped, and did you guys come
up with those questions when youwere doing the ideal client or
the ideal exercise?
Yes, that's exactly where wecame.
(10:51):
What you wanted to get out ofpeople Correct?
Speaker 1 (10:54):
Yes, related to the counseling field yes, and we
also spent a lot of timefiguring out, like kind of what
order we wanted those questionsto be in, because we talked a
lot about like how did we wantthe conversation to flow and how
much direction did we want tohave as the interviewers, and
how much openness did we wantthere to be when it came to just
(11:18):
like letting the conversationgo where it's going to go.
Sometimes, like sometimes thathappens and we want that to
happen and we knew thatintentionally.
So we have some big generalquestions that we ask everybody,
and then there's other thingsthat maybe we don't even ask at
the end of the day because wejust don't get to it.
And it's okay, cause it wasstill a good conversation.
Speaker 2 (11:38):
There is one question that we sort of centered the
podcast around, just based on,again, the interaction.
The initial idea of thispodcast is what do you wish you
had known?
So, while, yes, we sometimes gooff the rails and we'll talk
about predatory practices andthat's the one I edited today,
so look out for that onePredatory private practices and
(12:02):
insurance and stuff.
We wanted to talk about all ofthose things and be open to that
.
But we also wanted to stay to acentral theme which I think is
flexible enough to cover all ofthe information that we want to
but keeps everybody on track.
So I think it was reallycritical for us to figure out OK
, what is the central, like verycentering theme of the podcast
(12:26):
what do you wish you had known?
So we do not get through aninterview without asking that
question, even if it's in thelast five minutes, we do not get
through an interview.
Speaker 1 (12:35):
Yeah, we decided that that was like our central theme
.
I love that you said that.
Jasmine, as our resident techexpert, tell us a little bit
about how we figured out what todo with iThinkTech, jasmine is
so much better at it than we do,and that's really saying
something about Karen, okay.
Speaker 2 (12:51):
So that was probably like the biggest headache
starting out, because it's like,okay, everybody loves podcasts,
but what do we even do as faras like, how does that work?
Like, what do we even do?
As far as like, how does thatwork?
Like, how do you create thisand then put it on platforms?
Like we had no idea?
So we again started Googling andwe found a few different things
(13:14):
, like there's Zencaster and alot of different people have a
lot of different opinions aboutit, just depending on what kind
of content you want to put outthere.
We ended up landing on Alitu,because it was sort of an all
encompassing thing.
Karen had heard about it onanother podcast they were doing
like a link to it or somethingand she ended up looking it up.
(13:35):
I looked into it.
So that is our, that's ourplatform that we use, and I like
it because it kind of does allthe work for us and we don't
have to figure that out Like wejust have the.
I mean, karen builds theepisodes and I essentially just
do a lot of the editing and werecord within it.
Yes, and we record within it aswell.
(13:55):
So we do.
It's a one stop shop.
And if you don't know a lotabout computers, if you don't
know a lot about recordingsoftware, audio video, like
sharing, content sharing if youdon't know a lot about that,
find an all in one.
Or if you just don't have thatkind of time.
Because if you're going to sithere and tell me that audacity
(14:17):
is the best, but, like you, onlyhave 30 minutes extra a week to
be editing from a local likeprogram, like that, it's not
going to work because thelearning curve with some of
these programs is incrediblysteep.
So you want to find somethingand you're not.
This is don't quit your day job.
You know, like you're, we'll getto that in a second, but don't
(14:40):
quit your day job.
You're going to have tocontinue to see clients, like
you're going to have to.
This is going to have to be ahobby for more in a second, but
don't quit your day job.
You're going to have tocontinue to see clients, like
you're going to have to.
This is going to have to be ahobby for more than a minute, a
few minutes actually.
So find something easy just toget you started.
I mean, we reevaluate all thetime, but Allitude just kind of
always comes on top, mainlybecause of the convenience of it
.
We edit on there we everything,literally everything.
Speaker 1 (15:04):
Yeah, we record in it , we edit in it, we build in it
and we distribute through it.
It has the links to where itdistributes into all the
platforms for you Not all ofthem, not all the like the
little tiny various podcastplatforms, but the main ones
like Spotify, right.
And so the other thing I wantto say about kind of Alitu was
it also offered like somediscounts and like free trials
(15:26):
and stuff like that, and so itgave us the opportunity to like
mess around with it.
Oh, and there's music within ittoo.
So, like our music just comesfrom Alitu.
It's free.
We didn't pay anybody for thatand we wanted to just sort of
get started and we found thatAlitu enabled us to like get
started with like lowinformation, if that makes sense
, right.
Us to like get started withlike low information, if that
(15:47):
makes sense, right.
We didn't have to like figure awhole lot out to just like get
something out there, and itmakes it pretty easy to use
their help pages like reallygreat.
And we have recently signed onto be affiliates with them
because we've decided we canendorse them, and so you can use
our code T E A five zero atAlitucacom for 50% off your
first month, so in addition tolike some opportunities to like
(16:08):
try it.
They're really low cost as well.
And then they also offer like.
If you like it, after the firstmonth and you want to sign up
for like an annual, there's adiscount to it.
So they've been really fair andthey're always upgrading their
features.
I recently got an email thatsays they're going to start
allowing for like videorecording, so that may be
something that we can upgradeinto for our podcast.
So what I like about it isthey're always upgrading their
(16:30):
features.
Their help is really useful.
Like.
It's just a product that wesort of tried in the very
beginning and we've since cometo really appreciate.
It does take a lot of theguesswork out of a lot of things
that we're just we're not techpeople in many ways, you know,
and we don't want to spend allour time figuring it out.
Speaker 3 (16:46):
So now I'm going to throw a question at you.
Yeah, yeah, I want folks to getthe ethics from this, right,
Because you know you're outthere, right, and I.
One of the things I wrote downis like why podcast, right?
So if your client finds you, ifpotential clients find you,
then what?
We just had a case come beforethe board about this guy doing
TikToks and he went over theline no boundaries, right, so
(17:08):
all of these things.
So I want to drop that there,just so that I want you guys to
stay with what you're going totalk about.
But I also want to hear moreabout okay, how do you decide on
how much to say, what to editwhen people reach out?
Would people reach out?
Can they reach out?
All the things?
Speaker 2 (17:28):
Yeah, yeah, sure, and you know what's so funny.
We did a couple of episodesspecifically on that in the very
, very beginning, because Karenmade us do yeah.
Karen's one of the most funpeople I've ever met in that she
made one of our first episodesbe an ethics episode, where we
talk You'll hear Jasmine reallynot be quite on board with it at
(17:50):
the very beginning.
but she came around.
It was pretty cool.
Yes, so we actually talk if youare interested in that.
We have a couple of episodesspecifically about that.
We do a deep dive.
We actually go into the ACAcode of ethics.
Little ethics police here goesinto the ACA Code of Ethics and,
like she has highlighted, likeevery single one that pertains
(18:12):
to the podcast that potentiallypertains of it, I would say,
theme is incredibly important.
When you think about ethics ofwhatever kind of content you
want to put out there, whetherit be a podcast or an Instagram
account or a TikTok, whatever Becareful of sticking to your
(18:35):
central theme.
We're really careful notnecessarily to give advice.
We focus primarily on personalexperience and I think that
comes across really clearly.
Like, for instance, we did anepisode with Sina Moran.
Sina Moran is a counselor,actually out in Florida.
She has BetterHelp experience.
(18:57):
She worked for BetterHelp for acouple of years, I think, and
so I remember being reallynervous about that episode
specifically because I was like,oh my God, betterhelp is gonna
like come and get us.
They're gonna sue us right,because we're gonna put out this
thing.
That's obviously not gonna bepainting them in a very nice
(19:19):
light, but we looked, yeah, like, if you're curious about it,
check your ethics consult, doall the things that you learned
in grad school.
But we looked like, if you'recurious about it, check your
ethics consult, do all thethings that you learned in grad
school.
But we ended up doing theepisode and I think we focused
only on her experience and Ithink that's really like global.
Speaker 1 (19:36):
Yeah, about it yeah.
Speaker 2 (19:38):
Being very specific and sticking to your content,
like stick to the script, in alot of ways.
Speaker 1 (19:46):
Another thing that we , when we were doing the ethics
of a podcast episode initially,we talked about like first we
need to talk through the ethics.
Like that I felt like was acrucial part of our development
process.
Like we actually recorded thatvery early on.
We recorded that before we evendid an interview.
We just started published itlater.
But it was essentially Jasmineand I going through an ethical
(20:08):
decision-making model step bystep, and we just earned the mic
on and then talk through theethical decision-making model.
We even talked about differentethical decision-making models
and like how we wanted to walkthrough this.
We pulled out the CA code ofethics, we pulled out some of
the laws and we just talkedthrough them and explored like
the questions that we need toexplore, which is like how would
(20:32):
this impact our clients, howwould this impact the profession
, what is our mission and whatis our intention right and how
should we deal with certainissues?
I mean, certain things werepretty obvious and that is, for
example, like talking aboutclients.
That's obviously not somethingthat we do.
We're really conscious ofconfidentiality and maintaining
confidentiality.
We don't ask our guests anyquestions about client specific
(20:55):
stories.
We again stay, like Jasmine wassaying, really focused on their
personal experience, like thisis your story as a professional.
It's not really about whateverclient.
And even when we're talkingabout our own experiences in
some of our intros, where we'rereally diving into, like the
moment to moment, things thatwe're learning, even if it was
again maybe related to anexperience in a session, we're
(21:17):
protecting confidentiality atall times and being really
deliberate and intentional aboutthat, protecting aspects of our
(21:50):
guests' confidentiality in thesense allowing for our guests to
have out things right.
Like sometimes we've had tothrow things away or redo things
entirely because we hold acertain ethical standard about
we're not going to release thisIf you said like, hey, I don't
want that out there or I don'twant that to be talked about,
we're going to delete it becausethat's our standard.
And that's something that wetalked through when we were
working through the ethicaldecision-making model, before we
made this decision.
And then we also talked aboutlike, how do we want to handle
(22:11):
it?
You know, do we tell ourclients, do we not tell our
clients?
What's the line?
Because are we advertising?
Are we soliciting?
Right, what is this?
And we wrestled a lot with thatand I think the thing that we
came up with.
You know and you can listen tokind of our episode about this
to get to basically how weanswered some of these questions
.
I think the point for you ifyou want to come up with a
(22:34):
podcast is the point of ourethics.
Our ethical code is that youwrestle with these questions, is
that you ask yourself how mightthis impact a client if they
heard it?
How do I want that to behandled?
You know what are myresponsibilities.
You know we sort of came down onthe side that it's important to
be transparent, but it's alsoimportant to not be soliciting
(22:55):
and not be advertising, becauseour ideal listener is not
clients.
We're not talking to peopleabout mental health issues the
way that maybe somebody elsewho's doing a mental health
podcast might be.
I think in some cases there aremental health podcasts out
there that are really about likehey, let's learn about mental
health concepts and wellness andso on and so forth, and they're
intending to talk to thegeneral public.
(23:15):
Our ideal listener is notnecessarily the general public.
Our ideal listener is othermental health professionals, is
people who are consideringbecoming mental health
professionals, and so we reallytry to stay connected to that by
focusing on that audience piece.
If that makes sense, yeah.
Speaker 2 (23:33):
So, and which is why we talk about our origin story
and why it's so important to dothat prep work prior, to always
remember who you're talking to.
Like always remember who youraudience is.
If you do want to start amental health podcast, that is
more you know, learning.
Like you want to spread mentalhealth information, like our
friend Candice Frazier in thecouch next door, she does that.
(23:55):
She did a whole thing on, likethe Enneagram and like all this
other stuff like the centralthemes that she kept noticing in
counseling.
But, again, know who youraudience is and stick to your
motivation, like our motivationis to inform future and current
counselors on the professionitself.
(24:17):
Like, remember what yourmotivation is and if something
feels weird, delete it, justdelete it.
Speaker 1 (24:29):
Just cut it out, right, and we're like, right, we
can really just cut this crapright out or not publish it too,
like we then can also reallyreflect on was there anything
that we need to be reallythoughtful about not publishing
or deleting or editing becauseit comes across a certain way or
we're worried about how itcomes across.
So we just constantly go backto it, and I think that's the
part of ethics, that is whatwe're encouraged to do
(24:51):
professionally.
It's just like constantly goback to it and constantly
reflect, like not just like ourpodcast in general, but maybe
each individual episode, eachindividual conversation, and as
long as we're continuing thatdialogue with each other and
reflecting on that, then we'redoing our ethical due diligence
(25:13):
that, then, we're doing ourethical due diligence.
Speaker 3 (25:15):
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Speaker 1 (26:00):
Okay, jasmine, you want to talk about the good, the
good.
Always Talk about the good, thebad and the ugly guys.
We'll try to give you somelittle details.
Speaker 2 (26:09):
We're just going to, just gonna go.
Yeah, we'll go through thempretty quickly because we're
very verbose, which is why wehave a podcast.
Okay, so number one we get tohang out more, which is great
for me because I am actuallycurrently in wisconsin and my
partner travels for work he's atravel nurse and I don't have to
be as lonely because I get tohang out with Karen literally
(26:31):
every week for multiple hours aweek, so we get to be less
lonely.
It's had a really positiveimpact on our now long distance
friendship and yeah, so yeah.
Speaker 1 (26:44):
So I want to note on this piece too like I think it's
a decision that you want tothink about when you're going to
.
If you're going to develop apodcast, like, are you going to
do it by yourself?
Are you going to do it withsomebody else?
The truth is that if you'regoing to do it with somebody
else like you, you really needto like that person, because
we're going to get to this, butyou spend a lot of time together
, and so if Jasmine and I didn'tget along, like if we didn't
(27:04):
have ways of navigating ourfriendship and working together
because that's what this is then, like this would be miserable,
you know, and so prepareyourself for that.
Like, are you sure you want tosee this person way more than
you do already?
Because, like our friendshipused to be like, oh, we'd get
together, we'd have wine, we'dhang out, but like now, we talk
way more because we're doingthis project together.
(27:26):
And so if you're going to dothis with someone else, then
make sure you actually like thatperson.
Speaker 2 (27:37):
Yes, and also know that if you are going to do it
by yourself, we'll kind of getinto this in a second, but if
you are going to do this byyourself, it is a time
commitment.
It's not that the time goesaway, you're just doing more.
So while I think there'sdrawbacks to having like two
people doing one podcast, Ithink ultimately it is pretty
beneficial and it also keeps usboth ethically in check.
Like, for instance, if somebodygoes off the rails on a podcast
or on one of our episodes, likeyou know, we can discuss it
(27:59):
later.
Like another thing, you need tohave really good conflict
resolution skills and know howto handle tough stuff because
you aren't going to agree and infact sometimes you won't agree
on air.
So you need to be able to knowthat.
Okay, it is a super awesomecreative outlet.
It's just something differentthan individual client work,
(28:19):
because that gets a littletedious.
Sometimes I see about 25 to 28,I guess that's a big range
Clients per week and I neededsomething different.
So that has really scratched anitch for me and Karen I think
as well, because all thedifferent creative things we get
to do art and design.
We both kind of designed ourlogo, our Therapy T logo.
(28:43):
That was really fun.
And then we come up with postsand stuff like that.
We're not super great atposting, but you know we're much
better at writing.
Karen does a lot of, so so muchwork and I'm so thankful for
her for doing so many scriptsand show notes and Alitu now has
some functions for that as faras like transcripts are
concerned.
So that's really awesomeTitling episodes.
(29:06):
We have like full onconversation sometimes just
about the titles, because wereally enjoy coming up with cute
, kitschy little titles.
Ah, persona and acting.
It's kind of like yourcounseling persona, but like you
know, everybody knows what Imean Like there's your
counseling persona and thenthere's like you counseling
(29:30):
persona and then there's likeyou, not the counselor.
Just you know.
The same deal goes forpodcasting.
I am not this person.
I'm a little bit this person,but not fully this person when I
am off of the mic Not fullythis person.
Yes, yeah, so that's beenpretty fun for me.
Yes, yeah, so that's beenpretty fun for me.
Speaker 1 (29:51):
I don't really care, I'm not, I'm not really, I'm not
curious about it, like we.
We did talk about how it wasimportant for us and our podcast
and the dynamic of ourrelationship to be authentic and
, to be honest, truly I think weare authentic.
I mean we're authentic andthere are definitely real
moments in our relationshipwhere we argue or we disagree or
we snippet each other.
(30:12):
If you've heard some of ourepisodes, you can tell there are
moments where we're like allright, that's enough, and we
literally talk to each otherthat way.
But at the same time, we'realso trying to be productive in
this conversation and a part ofour dynamic is for the show, if
that makes sense.
So, yes, it's authentic, butthere's also a quality of it
that is for the show.
(30:33):
So even if, like, we'resometimes recording episodes and
we did not have a good day thatday, I had a shitty day, I'm
not in a good mood, or viceversa for Jasmine, and we still
have to show up and be a certainway in this interview, being
prepared for that is importantand it's something that I've
never been very good at.
So it's something that's hardfor me, but it is another outlet
(30:54):
.
Yeah, I think.
So that kind of goes to yourpoint, right?
Speaker 3 (30:59):
We've got a question what kind of a disclaimer do you
put out there for counselorswith podcasts that shares mental
health information withprospective clients?
What measures should be inplace to make it clear the
podcast is not counseling, andwhat measures should be in place
if existing clients arelistening to the podcast?
Is there something placed inthe counselor's informed consent
(31:20):
?
Speaker 1 (31:21):
Yes, yes, when we talked about the ethics, we
decided that we would usewritten disclaimers in our show
notes.
So every episode has a writtendisclaimer within the show notes
of that episode.
When we get our website off theground, our website will
include various writtendisclaimers.
And then also, we talked aboutadding to our informed consent
with clients.
(31:41):
So we talked about how we'dword that to make sure that it
doesn't feel or look likeadvertising, but again like
informed consent, and insteadlike hey, this is a thing that's
out there.
If that's something that youwant to talk to me about, you're
not the audience, I'm nottalking about you, but if it's
something you want to talk to meabout, let's talk about it in
session.
So, yes, we do include that,and I think you would have to
(32:03):
probably do even more of that.
This is just feeling about it.
If you are talking to clientsin your episodes, like in your
podcast, if it is kind of aboutmental health, in the sense that
you're talking about whatpeople should or shouldn't do,
then I think it is really moreimportant not just to have a
disclaimer in writing, but maybeto have a disclaimer audio like
embedded within the episode.
(32:24):
We decided not to do that.
But I've heard other therapyrelated podcasts where they have
the disclaimer in the verybeginning of the episode in the
audio that says this is nottherapy, because then they're
saying like they're talkingabout therapy issue, therapeutic
issues that maybe you wouldtalk to your therapist about
specifically.
So hopefully that answers thequestion.
Speaker 2 (32:45):
And one thing that's really cool, especially in Alitu
like if you have a one stopAlitu Zencaster I mean I think
most of them do this Like whenyou build the episode, you don't
have to, you can just recordthat on your own.
Like you just record that andthen that's good.
Like that is good forever.
You can just put that in thebeginning, yeah, and you don't
have to worry about that.
(33:06):
So, as long as it's like in thebeginning, if you do, if again,
if you're feeling icky about it, just go ahead and do it.
Like, just go ahead and do it.
If you question it at all, justgo ahead and do it, and it can
be really simple and fast.
So but you can just they makeit really easy.
You can just put it in thebeginning and then you'll never
have to worry about it again, aslong as you're making sure it's
in the order that it's supposedto be in, correct, okay,
(33:28):
awesome.
So, speaking of editing, I likeediting and I have to.
We have to do quite a bit of it.
I don't know if this is good,but I've like listened
differently now, I think, topodcasts.
Like once you start podcasting,you can like hear things.
But that's been really helpfulbecause it helps us kind of
build our thing that we send outto counselors like Kate, we
(33:50):
told you it'd be awesome if youhad a mic and headphones because
that makes editing a lot easier.
But that's something that'sbeen really good for me editing
and you'll spend quite a bit oftime doing it, so it's not crazy
, especially with an all in one.
It's not crazy, but there is alearning curve, for sure, and
(34:11):
again, you have to listen tothings like ethical
considerations throughoutwhatever you're talking about.
Yeah, so it's a cool skill tolearn.
Cool skill to learn.
I like it a lot.
Speaker 1 (34:19):
Another cool thing that we really like about doing
this podcast is that weultimately get to reap the same
benefits as our listeners, inthe sense that, like, we're also
learning about the profession,we're also learning about the
various options and paths into,you know, the field, and we also
feel so much less alone than wedid 18 months ago, you know,
(34:40):
when it comes to, like, how wefeel about our work and how we
feel about what we do.
We have had such great guestsand great opportunities having
conversations with other mentalhealth professionals.
That has really helped usrealize, like, oh, we're not the
only ones who worry about thator who feel that way or who have
had those experiences, andthat's something that we want
for our listeners and it'ssomething that we get just kind
(35:02):
of by doing this, and so that'skind of cool.
And we also have had a lot oflike really cool or at least I
have sort of really interestingself-reflection opportunities
through the conversations thatwe're having with people, and so
that's been really rewarding.
So, I think, being able toreally get the kinds of benefits
(35:25):
that we're hoping that ourlisteners get we're getting them
too and that's been really cool.
And so also connecting that tolike networking, like we're
making so many cool new friendsand like we genuinely like the
people that we are interviewingand talking to and we genuinely
feel like we could hang out withthem, and so we've built a
network through this podcast andthat's been a really cool
(35:46):
benefit.
I think we both really werehoping, and are still hoping,
that this will be a passiveincome revenue generator, but
when we get to the bad and theugly, we'll explain to you that
it's not right now, but that'sthe potential and the hope for
the future and we still likehold on to that deeply.
Speaker 2 (36:06):
Yeah, so setting some realistic expectations.
If you hit it big, you hit itbig.
That's great, but everybodyknows that the viral lottery is
and whatever the algorithm islike, something could explain
that to me.
That'd be great, but it's veryup in the air whether or not
you're going to hit it big.
We've had a lot of slow growth.
Like Karen said, we spent aboutsix months prior to even
(36:28):
publishing the first episodejust like planning and figuring
out what we wanted to do,figuring out how fancy our
microphones actually needed tobe and how fancy our headphones
actually needed to be.
Speaker 1 (36:41):
So that's time and the importance of headphones,
because I think the first fewepisodes I was like I'm not
doing headphones and thenJasmine was like I'm about to
meet you, yeah.
Speaker 2 (36:50):
Fucking headphones.
If you're going to do this,invest in a nice pair of
headphones.
Speaker 3 (36:54):
I highly recommend.
Speaker 2 (36:55):
I also highly recommend investing in a very
nice microphone.
Yeti makes a Nano.
That's actually reallyaffordable and super
approachable, but you could alsogo with like a more basic one,
but don't just rely on yourAirPods.
Okay, so let's get to the badreally fast.
No one likes to talk about this,but this has been incredibly
time consuming.
We've been planning for a year.
We've been planning for sixmonths and then published for a
(37:19):
year or coming up on a year,like I said in April.
So it has a pretty big timecommitment.
Karen and I meet.
We're all about transparency,so I'll just let you know.
Karen and I meet on Fridays.
We have two slots forinterviews.
We schedule two hours perinterview slot, so that means
sometimes it's four to fivehours on Fridays, just
(37:40):
interviewing, just interviewing,and then we do editing whenever
we can.
Each interview is anywherebetween an hour to an hour and a
half, so editing you can expectat tack on Minimum.
Well, unless you get reallygood, unless you have have
allotoo.
They've got some really nicefilters now.
So yeah, so it does cut down onthe time.
Speaker 1 (38:01):
I would say at least 30 minutes extra talking about
yeah, on top of however long, ontop of the actual episode.
Speaker 2 (38:08):
So if your episode is an hour, you can expect minimum
one hour and 30 minutes ofediting.
So I mean, that's already twoand a half hours of your time.
Speaker 1 (38:20):
That doesn't include the recording that we do for
intros.
Speaker 2 (38:24):
We also do intros that are about 20 minutes long,
yeah, and we edit those.
Speaker 1 (38:29):
We spent time recording our intros and our
outros, all of that we just likeadd in.
I would say from like a buildperspective, because I do
Jasmine does maybe a lion'sshare of the nitty gritty,
editing and I tend to do a lotmore of the sort of show note
writing, so the stuff that getsadded in, where it's like
listing the resources thateverybody mentioned and building
(38:51):
the actual episode out withinthe software.
That probably takes me just ifthe episode is edited, the audio
is edited and we're talkingabout about a 20 minute intro
and an hour and a half interview, and I'm going in and I'm just
like building it out, I'mwriting the show notes, I'm
adding all that stuff, I'msetting it up to be launched and
to be scheduled.
That process alone takesanywhere from 30 minutes to an
(39:14):
hour and that just depends onkind of how much I remember,
quite frankly, what we talkedabout.
I like to go back and re-listenand make sure I got the
resources correct Maybe an hour,depending upon the complexity
of the resources, because I liketo make sure that I'm being
accurate, like if an interviewguest says the name of the book
and it's not actually the nameof the book.
(39:34):
Then I go back and I make sureI get the correct name of the
book for the resource list, sothat process can take a little
bit of time.
So I would say maybe, based onwhat you're saying and what I'm
saying, the entirety of oneepisode is going to take an
additional anywhere four to fivehours of additional time, right
?
Speaker 2 (39:52):
So it's a lot.
Right.
We split it into two, so thinkabout that.
Our podcasts are also prettycurated.
At this point we're picky aboutmost things, but if yours is
more free form, maybe it takesless time.
If you think it takes that muchtime, add at least 30 minutes
to the time you think it's goingto take, because you never know
Tech issues have happened.
(40:14):
It can be pretty time consuming.
Speaker 1 (40:16):
None of this time stuff we're talking about.
That's just the episode.
There's also time that's goingto go into, like Jasmine creates
all of our social media posts,so there's time that it takes to
actually create those posts forsocial media actually
responding to emails, engagingwith emails, reviewing analytics
, like talking about that.
Just the additionalconversations we have outside
(40:38):
where we're also talking aboutbusiness decisions or you know,
oh, we want to get more guestsin this direction versus that
direction.
So the additional conversationsthat we have outside of just
recording related things andthen also the scheduling of
guests takes time right.
Speaker 2 (40:55):
And we have streamlined.
Speaker 1 (40:56):
We have streamlined we've changed our system, but it
still takes time.
Right, and we have streamlined.
We have streamlined, we'vechanged our system, but it still
takes time.
Like having conversations ofvetting guests.
I spend time.
I don't just let anybody be aguest, I make sure that they're
actually a professional.
That was one of the things thatwe talked about in our ethics
discussion.
We wanted to make sure we set abar for who we would talk to,
(41:16):
and so I check all of your youknow credits before I let you be
on our podcast.
Like I go on to BHEC and I makesure that this person is
actually licensed in the waythat they say that they're
licensed.
I check their website, I checktheir psychology today, like I
make sure they are who they saythey are before we go ahead and
like allow this person to beinterviewed and to be on our
(41:37):
podcast To have our platform.
So we spend time doing thatpre-screening as well, and that
really depends on how easy theinformation is defined, but I
would say per guest we'retalking about another half hour
or so, yeah.
Speaker 2 (41:48):
It's quite a bit of an added weight when it comes to
the mental load of things.
Again, it's the time commitment, but it's also coming up with
organizational planning tools.
Yes, it's just like constantlyplaying in the background, like
some of my time off has to bescheduled to edit and I have to
keep that in the back of my headwhen I'm making plans with my
partner or something,remembering what's next.
(42:09):
Karen's really good at that.
I'm not very good at that, soI'm thankful for Karen for that.
Remembering what people saidand what people's names are
things like that.
If you're not doing aninterview style podcast, that's
not quite as important.
It is a constant learningprocess, like learning how to do
(42:30):
Google Calendar and make itshareable and make it so that
people can schedule themselveslike self-scheduling, so we
don't have to do that anymore.
The forms, like it's a reallygreat resource, but if you don't
know how to use the Googlesuite, I'd start learning
because it makes things a loteasier, especially if you are by
yourself.
There's also been a lot ofinstances of emergency pivots
we've had to rerecord, like.
(42:52):
There has been one episode thatwe recorded in the very
beginning that experienced thislovely thing called audio drift
and I will never forget it.
It was such a great episode and, guess what, we cannot use it.
So that person has just gottenback from Peru and we're like
still trying to like schedulehim, and so that's a thing that
goes on in the background.
(43:12):
But, yes, we will have torerecord his episode completely.
There's guest tech issues aslike.
Sometimes people haveheadphones, but there's like a
feedback because the mic's notworking or something, or there's
a baby in the back or somethinglike that.
Like, you have to kind ofaccount for those things as well
.
Yeah, the drift phenomenon andthe emotional devastation that I
(43:35):
again trauma, we can't let itgo.
Yeah, yeah, lastation that Iagain trauma, we can't let it go
.
Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1 (43:39):
Last, thing on like, oh, go ahead.
No, I was going to just say thesame thing you were, which was,
like, once you decide thatyou're going to do this, there
is like a pressure to stay thecourse.
Right, you've decided to dothis, you started releasing
episodes and like you've got tokeep to it.
And something that you know, Ilistened to and I'd heard about
(44:02):
when we were in the planningstage was that you know, a lot
of podcasts fail because they'renot diligent in their frequency
, and so something that Jasmineand I decided early on was like,
what is our frequency?
We need to be realistic aboutwhat we can do, because we are
both practicing therapists.
You know we have practices, wehave partners, we have dogs,
like we have lives, and so let'sbe realistic.
Like this is not going to be adaily podcast.
(44:23):
That is not going to happen.
So, like, what is a frequencythat we can honestly commit to?
And that's a thing that, likewe didn't really know what to
expect, right?
So we picked a frequency thatsounded like realistic and the
reality has been is that it isdoable, but it is hard, it is
actually hard, and then there'sthe pressure to kind of keep
(44:45):
going, because we already pickedthis frequency and we got to
keep going because at a certainpoint now we have, like, people
listening to us actually, asopposed to just like sending
this out into the ether andnobody really cares if we stop
doing this.
But at a certain point we havelisteners and we feel like we
got to be, you know, showing upfor you.
Speaker 2 (45:03):
It is a commitment and sometimes I'm not going to
lie, I just want to quit.
But again, something to thinkabout whenever you are creating
a podcast.
If it were just me, I'm notvery good, like I'm not very
good at delayed gratification,right, so I need someone who's
going to be like no, this takestime.
We're going to keep doing thisbecause we like it.
(45:24):
It's benefiting both of us andeventually it will, you know, be
what we want it to be.
But if you're like me andyou're not a great delayed
discounter, know that aboutyourself going into it Because,
like I said, we have been doingthis a year and guess what?
I still work full-time.
It's a bummer, but I still workfull-time because this has not
(45:45):
generated what you probablythink it's going to generate,
which brings us to the.
It costs real money to do this,which is why everyone if you
are really interested in Alitu,everyone should use our code,
because you'll get money off,not like us, yeah, and even if
you end up not liking Alitu, atleast you didn't have to pay
(46:05):
full price to try it.
Speaker 1 (46:06):
Right, like there's literal upfront costs, you know,
associated with like the tech,like my mic, my headphones.
You know, we set up an LLC, youhave to pay for that.
It's not free, right, we'regoing to be building out a
website and then you have to payhosting fees and all the taxes
associated with it.
So there's like literal upfrontcosts and I think we did where
we could like manage that andsort of stretch it out to test,
(46:28):
and I think there's ways to dothat.
But even so, for us it's abouta thousand dollars is, like, I
would say, a reasonable initialstartup cost for the physical
tech, the audio tech, like thetech of it.
And then, you know, for Jasmineand I both, like this is a
hustle.
Right, this is a side hustle.
It's a side hustle that makes$0 and costs money right now
that's what's truly ugly aboutit.
(46:50):
But it is a side hustle.
It's our goal is that it willeventually be, you know, a
passive income source.
But the fact that it's a sidehustle for both Jasmine and I
kind of feels icky sometimes,like it feels murky and icky.
And so there's this tension forboth of us between our mission,
our message which is, you know,it goes back to like the
(47:12):
challenges of being a mentalhealth practitioner and then
monetization.
So if our whole motivation forthis is to be real, build
community, give away informationfor free, but then we also need
to make money to justify thetime away from our practices and
our lives and our partners, andthe fact is that the amount of
time that we spend on this everyweek is going to look like
(47:32):
anywhere from two to three tosix hours, depending upon how
many interviews we have thatweek, and so we have to be at a
certain point.
We need to generate money forthis to be sustainable.
And so how do we balance thattension between the mission and
the monetization?
And it's hard and we stillhaven't figured it out, and
that's what kind of makes itugly about this is we are having
(47:54):
to try to figure out what areour advertising and monetization
choices, that then, how dothose interact with our own
values and our ethics, and themission for the podcast.
And so it's been reallyuncomfortable, actually, and
really challenging, I think, forboth of us to figure out the
answers to those questions andwe didn't really anticipate how
that would feel when we startedthis.
We didn't anticipate how thatwould trigger when we started
(48:17):
this and we both absolutely hatesocial media, like anti-social
media people, and the truth isjust really hard social media
for this thing to come up withposts and self promote and, you
know, do stuff that like talksabout how awesome we are and
that's not really who we are ingeneral.
And so you know that part hasbeen really hard.
Speaker 2 (48:45):
How to balance that.
Do you have more on that,jasmine?
I don't like social media and Idon't like that.
I'm part of it.
I mean just like chasing thealgorithm right, like doing CEO
whatever, seo whatever, whateverI don't know, and like it just
contradicts my like own.
If you want to get off ofFacebook, like me, that's no
longer an option.
Luck is still getting you ifyou, because there's no other
(49:08):
way.
But if you do want to do thatand we're kind of exploring that
right now to cope with this Ifyou do not want to use free
methods of advertising foryourself or getting your name
out there, then you're going tohave to be creative in how
you're advertising for yourselfand getting yourself out there,
and it's probably not going tobe as free as social media.
(49:29):
So, yeah, like it's a constantlike values, test and check.
I think of like I don't reallywant to do this because I don't
want to.
I don't like social media, butit is what it is.
So not being successful rightaway I've already kind of
touched on that.
It's a commitment and you'renot going to be very good in the
(49:50):
very beginning, and Karen and II think the time commitment has
definitely gotten lower themore that we do it because it's
a lot more streamlined.
But the initial commitment I'ma perfectionist.
I struggle with it.
High anxiety.
Here we are, and I mean hours,hours, hours spent on making a
(50:11):
not perfect episode, like havingto just put that out there with
my name on it.
You're find a way to cope, yeah, cause it's going to happen.
You're going to do some stuffand it's not going to sound very
good.
Speaker 1 (50:24):
Real listen to your old episodes and you'll be like
man, those sound like crap andit's just triggers that again
and you just have to go and dealwith it Right.
So like it brings up that senseof like being kind of not good
or being subject to criticism.
Speaker 2 (50:41):
You know, imposter syndrome.
There are mental healthpodcasts out there that are
freaking killing it.
And here we are, just like withthis original idea.
It's a good idea, but I wouldsay the biggest thing for me is
coming back to that originalmission, like the thing that has
been so helpful.
One, karen, but two, just like.
(51:01):
Why did I start this in thefirst place?
Am I still being helpful tosome people?
And the truth is we are, likewe have gotten feedback that has
said, oh my God, this is sohelpful, like I'm so glad we had
this conversation, I'm so gladsomeone is talking about this
and that's our payment right now.
That's how I define successright now.
(51:24):
You know, podcasting is a bitlike counseling in that regard.
Like we talk about this all thetime in the podcast and it
feels sacrilegious to say it outloud.
And if you want to know moreabout what we both think, about
what I'm about to say,definitely check us out.
You don't get in this for themoney and podcasting counts as
that.
Speaker 3 (51:43):
Yeah, so.
So tell me, karen and Jasmine,we're coming up on time.
If folks wanted to reach out toyou with questions, what's the
best way for them to contact you?
Email.
Email is the best way for themto contact you.
Speaker 1 (51:57):
Email.
Email is the best way.
Therapytpod at gmailcom.
Speaker 2 (52:04):
TherapyTPod at gmailcom, not podcast.
Speaker 1 (52:06):
We're pretty good at responding.
We also get like and we'vetalked about this in some of our
episodes Like, if you just wantto say nice things to us, we
absolutely love comments on thelistening platforms, like
Spotify and Apple podcasts andlike any of the social media
posts that we do on Instagramand Facebook.
But if you have like a question,then, yeah, please email us and
(52:29):
we're totally willing to answerquestions, not just about like
podcasting, like if you want tobe a guest, but if you just
literally have a question aboutthe mic that we use or any of
that like, we're happy to shareall those details.
We use different mics anddifferent headphones and share
all of that with anybody.
We're fine and we're going tobe doing another episode
ourselves.
So, yes, where we're going togo a little bit more in depth
(52:49):
about what we talked about today, because, as Jasmine mentioned,
we're coming up on our one yearanniversary of episodes and so
we're going to do a specialanniversary episode and the
theme of it is what do we wishwe had known about podcasting
before we started podcasting,and so we're going to go a
little bit in depth about a lotof the stuff that we shared with
you guys here today, maybe evengoing into some of the nitty
(53:11):
gritty about like our tech andlike our actual fail moments,
cause we've had multiples andthey've been great experiences.
Speaker 2 (53:20):
We also I'm pretty active on our Instagram, so if
you want to just like, dm me, gofor it, and if you want to be
on the show, feel free to sendus an email on therapytpod at
gmailcom.
If you have something that youreally want to share, definitely
listen to a couple of ourepisodes prior to, but if you
want to be on the show, we'realways looking for new guests.
A lot of this is about buildingcommunity for us and making
(53:43):
therapists feel less alone andmaking networking a lot easier,
so definitely reach out, please.
Speaker 3 (53:50):
You're awesome and thank you so much for sharing so
much.
I mean that was great.
I mean I do this too, and itjust so much of what you say.
Yes, it's good, but there areparts that are bad and there are
parts that are ugly.
So thank you for being soauthentic and transparent with
us.
This was really good and Iappreciate you letting folks DM
(54:12):
you and reach out and ask morequestions.
Speaker 2 (54:14):
So thank you everyone .
Y'all are great, Thank you.
Feel free to reach out.
Speaker 3 (54:19):
Awesome.
All right, thank you guys.
Thanks for joining.
I'm Dr Kate Walker and this isour expert webinar of the month.
Don't forget we've got morecoming up, so check out the
calendar on the Facebook page.
Texas Counselors Creating BadassBusinesses and I will see you
guys soon.
Businesses and I will see youguys soon.
(54:40):
Thanks for listening to BadassTherapists Building Practices
that Thrive.
Be sure to follow or subscribeso you never miss an episode.
And don't forget our exclusive2025 summer intensives are
filling up fast.
Whether you're looking to growyour income, simplify your
systems or just feel less alonein private practice, we've got
(55:02):
you.
Learn more atkatewalkertrainingcom.
Slash summer25, and I'll seeyou next week.
I'm Dr Kate Walker.
Thank you so much for listening.
Thank you to the lovely RidgelyWalker for the interesting
(55:23):
facts about me that we use inour introduction, and do me a
favor when you get a second,please like, share and subscribe
and write us a review.
That's really how we get pickedup by other RSS feeds and we
get this information out to themental health badasses who need
it.
Thanks again, and keep savingthe world with excellent therapy
(55:45):
.
You.
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