September 9, 2025 • 36 mins
Forgiveness may be one of the most misunderstood yet transformative powers we possess as humans. What does it truly mean to forgive? Is it something we feel, or something we choose? And perhaps most importantly, who is forgiveness actually for?
Greg and Jess open this powerful episode with light-hearted banter about daily habits and modern tipping culture before skillfully transitioning to deeper waters. They share personal stories about physical scars—Greg's knife accident on his grandfather's farm and Jess's childhood playground injury—using these visible reminders as a metaphor for the emotional wounds we all carry.
The heart of this episode centers on Jess's extraordinary journey through unimaginable grief. She vulnerably recounts losing her first husband of eleven years in a tragic cycling accident, leaving her a widow with two young children. What makes her story particularly remarkable is her connection to the man responsible for the accident—she knew him personally. Despite pressure from the legal system to pursue serious charges, Jess made a decision that left even the judge in tears: she chose forgiveness.
"My kids lost their dad," she explains with raw emotion. "What right do I have to press charges against him and take him away from his kids?" This profound moment of empathy amidst devastating loss perfectly illustrates the episode's central message—that true forgiveness isn't about letting someone else off the hook, but freeing yourself from the weight of resentment.
Whether you're struggling with forgiving a minor slight or processing deep trauma, this episode offers a beautiful reminder that the decision to forgive is ultimately for your own healing. As Greg and Jess suggest, forgiveness doesn't erase what happened, but it can transform how those events continue to affect your life.
Ready to release some of the emotional baggage you've been carrying? Listen now, and join us for part two as we continue this important conversation about the journey toward forgiveness.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:01):
Hey guys, what's up?
I'm Greg.
I hope you guys are ready tounpack and get into some good
conversations today.
Speaker 2 (00:07):
And I'm Jess, and this is our podcast Baggage
Claim.
Thank you for joining us.
Speaker 1 (00:16):
What's up everybody.
Welcome to Baggage Claim.
If this is your first time here, welcome time of year.
Welcome If you're a regularattender or downloader, listener
whatever you call thosepodcasting listener folks.
Thanks for coming back.
I was just about.
Speaker 2 (00:33):
I'm sorry I interrupted you.
I was just about I was thinking, like you know, in my brain
thank you, Greg, for doing thisevery single time, because I
would never be able to say thesame thing every time, like you
say.
And then you did all that, andthen I just didn't do any of
that.
Speaker 1 (00:49):
Yeah, thank you.
So, wherever you're at, grabyour coffee, grab a drink, pull
up to our table If you'redriving down the road, maybe a
bit difficult, grab that coffeein hand.
Just pretend like, and justpretend like you're pulling up
to the table with us and justhaving some fun conversations
and we're hoping to create somecommunity and some conversation
around relationships, life andall the stuff in between.
(01:12):
Yeah, and just have a good timewhile we're doing it.
Speaker 2 (01:15):
Speaking of good time .
Speaker 1 (01:17):
Ooh go.
Speaker 3 (01:17):
Dawgs, go Dawgs.
Speaker 2 (01:19):
Well, that too.
Question time.
Speaker 3 (01:23):
Question time.
It's question time.
Speaker 1 (01:26):
Yeah, there we go.
Come on, now Go for it.
Speaker 2 (01:28):
Okay, when you're putting on your socks and shoes,
is it sock, sock, shoe shoe, oris it sock shoe, sock shoe?
Speaker 1 (01:41):
I put on both my socks, then I put on my shoes,
and I always put my right sockon first and my left, do you
really?
I always put my right foot infirst.
Speaker 3 (01:50):
I'm just saying, if you do sock shoe, sock shoe,
I've got some serious questions.
Yeah, you're psychotic.
Yes, that's like— Do you dothat?
No, oh.
Speaker 2 (01:59):
I'm not— that's like— Y'all both are looking at me
with a cute eye.
Speaker 3 (02:02):
Yeah, I was just like are you that person there?
Speaker 2 (02:05):
are people that do that.
There are people.
Speaker 3 (02:07):
Because it's like borderline savagery.
Speaker 1 (02:10):
Like, put a sock on and a shoe, then your other foot
is just out there, just rawdogging lines.
Speaker 3 (02:16):
You gotta have the standoff with the inch
difference.
Yeah well, it's just ball.
It's like nothing to cover it.
Speaker 2 (02:20):
Just out there naked.
Speaker 1 (02:21):
Yeah, it's just nothing, it's just out there
Like that just seems, that seemswrong.
Speaker 3 (02:26):
I mean that's the equivalent of like putting one
leg in your underwear and thenputting one leg of your pants on
before putting the other leg ofyour underwear in.
It is the equivalent.
Speaker 2 (02:32):
Yes, it is.
Speaker 3 (02:33):
It's just wrong.
Speaker 1 (02:42):
I'm just saying people do that.
That's actually a good quote,that's so good.
Speaker 3 (02:45):
Yes, actually yes next week tune in to Greg's
response on what it's like right.
Speaker 2 (02:51):
So you want to try sock shoe, sock shoe yeah, I'm
putting my sock in my shoe.
Speaker 1 (02:56):
I'll try that tomorrow, please do report back
to all of us.
I will.
It's going to feel so weird.
It's just going to be weird.
I can tell you already.
It just feels weird thinkingabout it.
Speaker 2 (03:06):
I know I thought about it when I was putting on
my socks and shoes to go to thegym earlier.
I was like here I am again,sock, sock, shoe, shoe, and it
is.
I was just thinking like, yeah,I do my right.
One first.
Speaker 3 (03:19):
Do you always do the right one first?
Speaker 2 (03:20):
Yeah, the right one first.
Yeah, I'm right-handed.
I feel like it's just likeright side dominant.
Speaker 1 (03:23):
I think you're in a habit If you'll notice, you
always will put on the same sockevery time.
Just out of habit, that's true,yeah, it is, it's the same way,
like you brush your teeth withthe same hand every time.
Speaker 3 (03:33):
Well, yeah, that's dominance of your hand.
Speaker 2 (03:39):
It is, he will do it with his left hand.
He had to try to remap my brain.
Speaker 3 (03:42):
I know, oh, so proud of you, yeah, but no, like
literally last weekend I wasliterally thinking that because
I don't put my shoes on one,like specific right or left at a
time.
Speaker 2 (03:54):
You do not.
Speaker 3 (03:55):
No, it's just, whichever one I pick up first, I
just put it on.
Speaker 2 (03:59):
I pick up or like in the mornings, like while you're
fixing coffee, I will bring mysocks and shoes into where we
like the room In the kitchen,the bourbon room area, the
keeping room or bourbon room orwhatever and I sit and I but I
carry my shoes correctly, likeright and left, and so that's
(04:20):
how I sit them down and I putthem on.
Speaker 1 (04:22):
If I'm putting on flip flops, it's always the
right one first.
Speaker 2 (04:25):
Me too the more.
Speaker 1 (04:28):
You know I have a question Now.
You know the more you know.
So do you tip at a restaurantwhere they have to, like you
have to do all, like they don'treally do anything, like you do
all the work?
Speaker 3 (04:46):
Ooh, this is going to be a sensitive one.
Speaker 1 (04:48):
Like you do all the work for tipping and then they
turn around so that you tip themand they didn't really do
anything other than take yourcard, like they're not bringing
you anything, they're not doinganything, they're just, you're
just tipping.
Speaker 3 (05:02):
Hmm, does that make sense.
It's kind of like theequivalent of tipping for a
to-go order Right.
Speaker 2 (05:09):
Yes, yeah, okay, it's like.
Speaker 1 (05:11):
I order, like I do a pickup, and I go order like if
I'm doing a pickup at Starbucksor something, and you do it
through the app and it's thereyou go in.
Do you tip?
Because you've done everything?
All they've done is made thecoffee.
They're getting paid to makethe coffee.
Speaker 2 (05:24):
They literally did their job.
Speaker 1 (05:25):
Yeah, and so should I tip them.
Speaker 3 (05:28):
Oh, you're going to open up a can of worms even with
listeners, on this one.
Speaker 1 (05:31):
I don't know, I'm just curious Do you so, if it's
like a non-service thing,because tipping culture is
insane.
It's a little out of controlthough.
Speaker 2 (05:40):
You buy a water at the gas station.
Speaker 3 (05:42):
It's like oh, would you like a tip?
I was like no, like I'm notgoing to tip for buying a water.
Speaker 2 (05:46):
Yeah, you could tip at the convenience store now,
yes, do you really yeah.
Speaker 1 (05:50):
Yeah everywhere.
Speaker 2 (05:51):
Yeah, I don't ever go inside.
You go inside to buy yourslushies, don't hate on my
slushies.
Speaker 3 (05:59):
I'm coming here to get that, and it asked me if I
wanted a tip.
And I'm like I'm not.
I went into a store, walked theaisles, got what I wanted.
Speaker 2 (06:08):
Oh my gosh.
Speaker 1 (06:09):
Yeah, it was interesting Because in some of
the places, like at the Bravesgame, if you tip they don't get
the tip.
The tips all go into somethingelse and go somewhere else.
The person that's workingdoesn't get the tip when you go
to a Braves game and you get—Did you ask you walk down the
thing?
You get the hot dog, you getthe stuff and then they
literally go punch the buttonthat you're standing there
(06:30):
because you can't touch it andthen they want you to tip them
for that and I'm like why wouldI—.
Speaker 2 (06:35):
Did you ask them if they could get the tip?
How do you know that?
Speaker 1 (06:38):
I was told by Thomas, which means it couldn't be true
, but it could be false.
Speaker 2 (06:42):
Thomas is confidently wrong.
Still, yeah, he is.
Bless his heart at this phaseof life, if I'm wrong, about
that.
Speaker 1 (06:48):
Please correct me, but like you're tipping and they
didn't really do it, they'rejust standing there.
They didn't walk me through theprocess, they didn't put the
condiments on my hot dog, theydidn't do anything, they just
punched some buttons on thething and I'm like I should tip
you for that, Like I don't.
Speaker 2 (07:02):
I'm confused.
I can push the buttons.
Speaker 1 (07:04):
Yeah, just watch me do it, I can do it good too.
Speaker 2 (07:07):
Wow.
Speaker 3 (07:08):
Usually I try to always be a generous tipper, but
if it's like out of control insome areas, like that, I don't.
I don't know Now if I'm in arestaurant, I will tip.
I'm a good tipper at arestaurant.
Speaker 1 (07:20):
Like if I'm sitting down like a service kind of like
.
I believe in tipping and Ienjoy tipping.
I actually like to tip more ifI can at times, because it's
just fun.
Speaker 2 (07:30):
Well, especially if we have a great time with the
server too.
Speaker 1 (07:32):
Yeah, yeah, it's usually a lot of fun so well all
right, good questions.
Yeah.
So let's jump into our topictoday and this is going to be
probably a heavy episode.
So we're going to start alittle light before we get in
too heavy into all the stuffwe're going to talk about.
But man, I want us to startreally quick with and you can
(07:55):
tell me, I used to do this as anopener when I would do
sometimes of group team buildingkind of things.
It was like open with a scarstory, Because every scar has a
story.
So tell me, like a physicalscar, Like I'll tell you one,
I'll start just to kind of openit up.
So I have this scar.
(08:15):
I mean, if you're listening,it's a scar on my knuckle.
Speaker 2 (08:19):
Even if you're looking on YouTube, you probably
can't see no it's on my indexfinger and it comes down pretty
far.
Speaker 1 (08:25):
It's pretty long it does.
Yeah, it's probably about aninch inch and a half on my
knuckle.
But I remember this scarbecause I was, I grew up on a
farm, kind of my grandfather, mygrandmother had a big farm.
We did cows, huge gardenchickens, the whole nine yards
Like not 10 chickens, likechicken houses, houses, yeah,
yeah, like it was work, it waswork but anyway.
(08:49):
So we had picked corn and ifyou've ever done corn, when
you're shucking corn you cut thetop off the corn and you peel
it back.
Well, my grandfather hadsharpened all the knives and I
didn't know it, and so theknives are usually really dull.
So I go to hold my hand and cut, and when I did it cut kind of
(09:10):
the—when you bend your finger itcreates, like a little knuckle,
a little extra meat part.
Well, I cut that off and itfell into the corn.
So when you bend your finger itcreates, like a little knuckle,
a little extra meat part.
Well, I cut that off and itfell into the corn.
And the first thing mygrandfather said is, well, get
that blank piece of meat out ofthe corn.
And that piece of meat was myknuckle.
Speaker 2 (09:28):
Yeah, now are you?
Okay?
Speaker 1 (09:30):
It had the little lines in it Like it took enough
off.
You could see the lines in myknuckle and the piece of meat
that was laying in the corn andnow there's really a scar.
And now every time I thinkabout it, I think of corn,
eating corn.
Speaker 3 (09:41):
So every time you see your finger, you think of corn.
Speaker 1 (09:43):
Yeah, I rub that and I'm just thinking I hate corn
Corn.
I just lie, I don't like corn.
Speaker 2 (09:48):
Which is sad because I love corn on the cob.
I love corn so much.
Speaker 1 (09:52):
But she loves garden.
Like I don't Like.
We talked about one time.
You're like let's have a garden.
I was like no.
Speaker 2 (09:57):
I'm not doing a garden, I just want to grow corn
.
Speaker 1 (09:59):
Yeah, I was like I'll go to Jaymore and get you corn,
which is a farmer's market onthe street.
I love corn, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2 (10:04):
I went to a festival over the weekend.
It had fresh roasted corn onthe cob and the willpower it
took for me not to just go thereover and over.
I didn't go there at all.
Speaker 1 (10:20):
Why did you not?
You didn't get one.
Speaker 2 (10:22):
No, because it was an apple festival so I felt like I
needed to get apple.
Speaker 1 (10:27):
You felt like you were betraying the apples.
She was going to betray theapples if she ate the corn.
Speaker 2 (10:29):
So I got sliced apple , but with warm peanut butter.
Ooh, wow, that sounds.
Speaker 1 (10:34):
Sliced apple, but with warm peanut butter.
Ooh, wow, that sounds delicious.
It was delightful, soundsdelightful.
Speaker 2 (10:38):
But the fresh roasted corn on the cob, you could
smell it.
Oh my, yes, I don't like cornman.
Speaker 1 (10:44):
It gets in your teeth .
It's a lot to eat.
I love corn and you and yourbrother eat corn the weirdest of
anybody.
You want corn on the cob andthen you cut it all off.
Speaker 2 (10:52):
I don't do it every time.
Speaker 3 (10:53):
Y'all spend like 30 minutes you eat corn on the cob
and then you cut it off the cob,not every time.
Speaker 1 (10:58):
They cut it off the cob to eat it.
Speaker 2 (11:00):
They don't do it every time.
I'm like what's the use of it?
They just get the corn withoutthe corn on the cob.
It's corn.
On what kind of mood it is,what kind of mood I'm in Feels
like it.
Speaker 3 (11:11):
So scar stories.
Sorry, what's your scar?
Speaker 2 (11:14):
I don't have very many scars.
I have a surgery scar.
Speaker 1 (11:19):
That's not fun, but I have a scar under my chin and
you can only see it.
Speaker 2 (11:26):
Yep, can I do that?
Speaker 1 (11:26):
You can't see it, I still couldn't see it.
Speaker 2 (11:28):
Whichever, well, because a plastic surgeon
corrected it.
Speaker 1 (11:31):
Oh, excuse me.
Speaker 2 (11:32):
I was five and where you and I grew up, there was a
Dairy Queen in town, up on thehill where there's a pharmacy
there now there's a Walgreensthere now Walgreens yeah, and
you remember the big hamburgerslide.
Speaker 1 (11:49):
The Hamburglar.
Speaker 2 (11:51):
No, that's McDonald's .
But it was a hamburger slideand it had just rained.
But I was five and I was theonly child, so I was
entertaining myself, and so Iwas going up the slide backwards
thinking I could crawl up it,but it was wet and I busted my
chin open and I had to go getlike a million stitches on the
inside A million or like two.
(12:11):
Probably more like 20.
20?
Inside and outside, like theplastic surgeon did a whole
thing.
20?
It was a lot.
Speaker 1 (12:19):
All right, I'm going to have to get some
qualifications on that you canask my mom?
Speaker 2 (12:22):
My dad was not—oh, it was just me and my dad and my
grandmother.
Speaker 1 (12:27):
I'll check with your dad.
Speaker 2 (12:28):
We can ask some parents.
Yeah, I'll verify, but it was alot of stitches and I still
have a scar, but you have tolook for it really hard.
Speaker 1 (12:33):
I never noticed you had a scar there.
Speaker 2 (12:34):
It was a plastic surgeon did a great job.
Speaker 1 (12:37):
So the whole idea is is that trauma?
Yeah, either on the slide orfrom your grandfather's sharp
knives, you're cutting yourfinger off.
Cut your finger off.
Trauma leaves scars.
Speaker 2 (12:49):
It does.
Speaker 1 (12:50):
Sometimes physical scars, sometimes emotional scars
, yeah, but trauma leaves scars,it does.
Speaker 2 (12:56):
The trauma on both of us.
It doesn't hurt anymore, but wecertainly remember how we got
it.
Yeah, I remember it.
Speaker 1 (13:01):
I remember it clearly .
And so the idea is that all ofour lives, no matter where
you're at and how long you'vebeen on this journey of life,
you have scars.
Yeah, some are emotional, someare, you know, small and easy,
and some are deep and hurtful,and some are hard to talk about,
some are hard to do.
(13:22):
But the idea and the topic wewant to get into today is
forgiveness, yeah, forgiveness,and we're going to get.
We're going to hit allspectrums of forgiveness, from
the deep, deep stuff to the tothe lighthearted stuff.
We're going to try allspectrums of forgiveness, from
the deep, deep stuff to thelighthearted stuff.
We're going to try to hit itall.
We'll get as much as we can inand if we have to do two parts,
we do two parts.
(13:43):
But we'll see how we go, yeah,and see how it unfolds.
Speaker 2 (13:46):
So, like you said earlier, this episode is going
to be a little heavier and itmay be a two-parter, and that's
cool if we get there, that's allright yeah, we haven't done
like a heavy episode like thissince probably our very first
one where we shared like kind ofhow we got here.
Speaker 1 (14:02):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (14:03):
But this is a big topic that's really important.
Speaker 1 (14:06):
So we're talking about forgiveness, yeah, and
about what does forgiveness looklike?
What does that mean?
Who's that for?
What's the purpose of it?
Do we even need it, or why isit?
I mean, what's the purpose ofit.
Speaker 2 (14:21):
Forgiveness means different things to different
people, though.
Speaker 1 (14:25):
Does it or should it?
Speaker 2 (14:31):
So you know like people throw around the phrase
forgive and forget.
You know, blah, blah, blah.
That's a pretty common phrase.
Speaker 3 (14:39):
Or I forgive and don't forget.
Speaker 2 (14:41):
Well, that's really more like what people actually
do, yeah, honestly.
Speaker 1 (14:47):
Well, I don't think those two are synonymous
together.
Speaker 2 (14:50):
No.
Speaker 1 (14:50):
I don't think.
I think we it's time for us togo okay, let's kind of break
that and say let's don't putlike I'm not saying let's
forgive so we can forget.
I say we forgive so we can behealthy and we can move on.
Speaker 2 (15:05):
Well, that goes back.
That kind of boils down to thebasic question is what does
forgive mean?
Speaker 3 (15:11):
to you.
Speaker 2 (15:12):
Not you personally, but in general.
What does forgive mean to youwhen you think about that?
So we looked up the definitionearlier.
Yeah, and I don't have my phonewhere the definition was.
Speaker 1 (15:25):
Like.
For me, forgiveness isreleasing guilt or weight of
something that someone has doneto me in some manner, whether
that be.
Whatever that looks like, I hadto go through a part where I
forgave my dad, and that was ahuge process for me and it took
a long time.
(15:46):
Did I ever forget?
No, I still haven't forgottenit.
But at the same time, I forgavehim and tried to move forward
in that relationship.
Speaker 2 (15:57):
Right.
So it's like forgiveness canlook a little—.
Michael, can you look up whatforgive in the dictionary?
Speaker 1 (16:03):
the definition is what the goog says about it.
Speaker 2 (16:06):
The googs Because, like yeah, to choose not to hold
resentment is a big piece of it.
Speaker 1 (16:14):
Michael doesn't have reception now.
He's standing on the chair withhis arm stuck to the ceiling.
We gotta get some Wafa up inthis place.
Speaker 2 (16:22):
We need to get that imaginary net thing, they told
us about.
Yeah, but I do remember it wasto choose not to be resentful
and not to hold on to anger.
Speaker 3 (16:35):
To cease to feel resentment against an offender.
Speaker 2 (16:39):
Offender.
Speaker 3 (16:40):
Okay so someone who has offended you, you cease to
feel resentment towards thembecause of the offense.
Speaker 1 (16:48):
Yeah, gotcha.
So sometimes even likeforgiveness, is this weird thing
?
Like someone may have offendedyou and they don't even know
they offended you and you'relike I can't believe.
They still just walk aroundhere like everything's OK.
Speaker 2 (17:03):
Well, they may have no idea, everything is OK yeah.
Speaker 1 (17:06):
And so you're toting around, like when you don't
forgive someone, it's almostlike this huge weight that you
put on your shoulders, yeah, andyou carry around with you
through life and that soforgiveness isn't for that other
person, the forgiveness is foryou.
Speaker 2 (17:22):
Yeah, would you agree that forgiveness is feelings
based?
Speaker 1 (17:26):
Oh, a thousand percent.
Speaker 2 (17:27):
Yes.
Speaker 1 (17:28):
One hundred percent.
Speaker 2 (17:30):
So, then, that means that forgiveness is a choice.
Speaker 1 (17:36):
Yes, do you agree?
Speaker 2 (17:38):
100%.
I want to see where you are atwith that.
Speaker 1 (17:41):
Yeah, I think— you have to choose to forgive.
Yeah, I think that's probablythe hardest thing for us as
humans is like we don't want toforgive people because we want
to hold on.
We have this idea of justiceand what's right and what's
wrong, and we're like, no, no,no, they wronged me, so I'm not
forgiving them, and I'm likethat just hurts you it doesn't,
it does.
Speaker 2 (18:01):
And you know you said as humans, I mean honestly God
is the only one that can trulyforgive.
Speaker 1 (18:08):
Right.
Speaker 2 (18:09):
And to literally forget it?
Yeah, because that's what hepromises.
So as humans, we get to chooseif we want to extend that to
somebody else, and it may noteven be.
I'm extending forgiveness toyou because, like you said, some
people don't even know thatthey've offended you.
Speaker 1 (18:27):
Right.
Speaker 2 (18:27):
Because the forgiveness is for you as well.
Speaker 1 (18:30):
Yeah, have you ever had that where you went to
someone and say I forgive youfor this, and they're like oh, I
didn't even know.
Have you ever had that happen?
I had.
It was really, really awkward.
Not that I can think of.
Speaker 2 (18:43):
I feel like that'd be something I would remember it
was really awkward.
Speaker 1 (18:46):
Yeah, it was weird, you know, because sometimes you
it's really interesting when youlook at forgiveness, because
you can take the stance whenyou've been traumatized by
something and there's differentlevels of that.
Like someone said somethingthat hurt your feelings, Okay,
well, forgive them, but therewas something where there was
(19:07):
actual trauma towards you.
It may have been physical,mentally, emotionally towards
you.
That's a whole differentballgame.
It sure is.
I mean, that's a differentlevel of forgiveness, that's a
different—it's somethingcompletely opposite of just like
, well, they hurt my feelings,so I'm going to forgive them.
I didn't get invited to this.
Speaker 2 (19:29):
Right and so— you and I both have experienced trauma,
different kinds of trauma.
Speaker 1 (19:36):
Yes.
Speaker 2 (19:37):
Where we got to choose whether or not we were
going to forgive.
Speaker 1 (19:42):
Yes, so I we'll get into yours first and then we can
dive into my trauma next.
So kind of tell the story ofwhat happened to you, how you
know, just kind of lay out thestory of that, and then we'll
walk through the part of theforgiveness part of that for you
(20:02):
.
Speaker 2 (20:03):
So, like we said, this is going to be a heavier
episode, more emotional.
So if you don't know uspersonally and if you haven't
listened to previous episodes,especially our first episode of
how Did we Get here, that wementioned a little bit ago, so
(20:23):
we both experienced trauma in adifferent way.
So long I don't even know if Ican do a long story, short
situation.
Speaker 1 (20:34):
No, just tell the story.
Speaker 2 (20:34):
Okay, I don't even know if I can do a long story
short situation.
No, just tell the story, okay.
So it's interesting that we'retalking about this this week
because in a couple of daysit'll be 15 years ago.
My first husband was killed inan accident.
He rode bicycles.
It started off mountain bikingand then several months later he
(21:02):
got into road biking and he hadgotten this fancy new road bike
he was so excited about.
And he had only been on oneother short ride and this was
his first like long road ridewith a friend, our friend named
Chad, and on the road ride hewas actually hit by a car and
(21:31):
killed, and I mean as the personthat was responsible.
Speaker 1 (21:37):
And so, yeah, I guess , walking forward through the
point of this discussion for theforgiveness part of so, at this
point though in your life, justto help give some more context
to the story, Thank you.
You and TJ had been married forhow long?
Up until?
Speaker 2 (21:57):
this point 11 years.
Speaker 1 (21:59):
Yeah, and how long did you date before you like?
Speaker 2 (22:01):
High school yeah like high school sweethearts.
Speaker 1 (22:04):
And so you guys, you're likehow long did you
say—how many?
Speaker 2 (22:08):
years Together all the— how long were you married?
We were married for 11, but weprobably—I guess 14, 15 years
all together.
Speaker 1 (22:17):
Okay, so 14, 15 years you guys had two kids.
You had Aaron and Thomas.
How old were Thomas?
Speaker 2 (22:22):
They were six and nine Okay.
Speaker 1 (22:24):
And so you guys are going to a Georgia game later
that day.
Speaker 2 (22:27):
We were.
Speaker 1 (22:28):
With Chad and his wife.
Speaker 2 (22:30):
Lisa, but you guys were all friends, we were.
So thank you, because it's likefor me, it was like there's a
lot of that story, so I want tomake sure that we just I'm
sticking to where we're going.
So thank you to where we'regoing.
So, thank you.
So, yes, so Chad and TJ weregoing to ride their bikes from
(22:51):
Chad and Lisa's house to mygrandmother's house, which was
towards Athens.
That's why we were meetingthere, and me and Lisa and all
the kids we were going to rideto Nanny's house and meet there.
So, yes, so in the midst ofthat is when he was killed.
Speaker 1 (23:10):
Okay.
So yeah, he leaves in themorning going for a bike ride
with Chad.
You guys are getting the kidsready, you're going to go meet
them, going to the Georgia game.
And then you get a phone call.
Speaker 2 (23:21):
I got a phone call and then, as my phone was
ringing, my doorbell was ringingand banging on the door and
that was Lisa, and she was theone to tell me that there was an
accident and that we need to goto the hospital.
And so there's a lot of thatthat I don't really remember has
to be yes, yeah, and so I'mpretty sure not 100% I'm pretty
(23:46):
sure that Lisa is the one thattook me to the hospital.
Again, I'm not sure because Idon't remember where my kids
were and I don't remember whereher kids were, but I just
remember her waking me up, andthen we were at the hospital and
all I knew was that Chad keptsaying that quote unquote they
(24:06):
were working on him and that wejust need to get to the hospital
.
Speaker 1 (24:11):
Which he died on the scene.
Speaker 2 (24:13):
Immediately.
Yeah, okay, immediately.
Yes, he passed away immediately, okay.
Speaker 1 (24:20):
Yeah, so sorry not to be disrespectful at all, and I
don't want.
If people listen to this new TJand new you are people who are
and have heard this there's alot of people who have gotten a
phone call in their life andeverything changed, yes, or have
got a knock at their door andeverything changed, yes, and so
(24:41):
I don't want to.
I want to respect the heavinessof that at the same time.
Speaker 2 (24:47):
Yeah, but also I appreciate you walking me
through telling the story,because you know it as well as I
do at this point, because,again, where we're going with
this is the forgiveness aspectof it.
Speaker 1 (25:01):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (25:02):
And so I might could get lost in the details, and I
might could even get lost in myfuzzy recollection, just because
I'm a Christian, we'reChristians and I know that
there's pieces of that that,literally, the Lord has
protected in my heart and myhead, because it probably would
be too painful if I couldremember it.
And so you leading me throughtelling the story is is a very
(25:26):
good thing for me.
Speaker 1 (25:26):
I don't want people to think you're prying it out of
me, um, but yeah yeah, well,that's a it's not a fun thing to
no, to walk through and relive.
Yeah, um, so okay, so you getto the hospital.
You realize he's not made ithis best friend, chad, which was
friends with you guys.
Speaker 2 (25:45):
Yeah, he was injured, there was a lot going on with
him and again the fuzzy, I don'tknow.
They were already in the ER.
There was this kind of like aprivate family area where we all
got to go.
Several of my family memberswere already there and I don't
(26:09):
know how they knew and the wifeof the man who hit TJ, who was
my friend from work, was there,and so at that point is when I
didn't know for sure what hadhappened or who was involved,
(26:31):
but she was there, and so thewife of the man who actually hit
him.
Speaker 1 (26:39):
Okay, so what actually happened?
Can you share that with us?
Speaker 2 (26:42):
yeah, um, well it, I waited um.
I waited months for the statepatrol report.
Um because I wanted to makesure that he, the man that hit
tj um, was not impaired in anyway.
Speaker 1 (26:58):
Um, like you know, outside of that, like besides
being impaired, like whatactually happened.
Speaker 2 (27:05):
So the road that it happened on there's a hill, and
at the crest of the hill youreally truly can't see the road
past that point.
And so the man who had leftwork literally at dawn I mean,
it was barely daylight he wasjust going to work, okay.
Speaker 1 (27:24):
So he was on his way to work, he was From home.
Work Okay.
Speaker 2 (27:25):
So he was on his way to work, he was From home okay,
he was from home on his way towork and he just literally
didn't see him.
He just literally didn't see TJand Chad.
Speaker 1 (27:32):
Gotcha.
Speaker 2 (27:33):
Just simply because the way the road, the hill
crested and the way the roadwent, Right, and so he just he
struck him with a car.
He struck him With his truck.
It was pulled over and stopped.
Yes, okay, and he's the onethat called 911 and stayed and
the whole thing Gotcha yeah.
Speaker 1 (27:48):
Okay, so you waited to get the police report for— I
did?
Speaker 2 (27:53):
I wanted to make sure that he was not impaired in any
way, wasn't distracted or therewas not some kind of a
situation that would have—notintentionally caused the
accident, but a reason why?
Speaker 1 (28:08):
Yeah, so he wasn't drunk driving.
Speaker 2 (28:09):
Right those things.
So I mean it was literally sixor eight months.
It was a long time, and thestate patrol report was, I mean,
two or three inches thick ofinformation and reconstructing
the whole thing.
Speaker 1 (28:23):
So in those six months feelings toward this guy
I mean changed everything.
Speaker 2 (28:31):
Yeah, and it's a family that I had known for a
handful of years.
Speaker 1 (28:35):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (28:36):
And so I tried to.
I mean, of course I was angry,obviously Right, but I tried to
refrain my judgment is awfulword, but I try to refrain my
like decision making till I knewthe facts, because Well, the
decision being in that situation.
(28:58):
This whole time I had the countyDA, I had judges, I had
attorneys from the insurancecompanies, I had a lot of folks
trying to see if I wanted topress charges and what kind of
charges I wanted to press,ranging from you know whatever
(29:22):
and I don't know what theterminology might be but like an
involuntary manslaughter orthis or that or the other.
But I didn't have theinformation that I knew I needed
to be able to make that calland I was the person that was
going to make the call of whathappened to this man's life for
(29:43):
a certain amount of years.
Yeah, and so I knew I neededthe rest of the information
before I could do that.
Wow.
Speaker 1 (29:50):
That's a heavy, huge decision, because you're
weighing anger, frustration,hurt.
Speaker 2 (29:56):
Against facts.
Speaker 1 (29:57):
Yeah, against the facts of what really happened.
Yes, and that whole ideawelling up inside of you as
human is is this, is this realor is this not real?
Is this?
Like what do I do here?
Yeah, so were you feelingpressured in any way to make a
certain decision, like, were youfeeling pressured by those guys
, the courts or the?
Speaker 2 (30:19):
legal system where we live.
Yes, I was feeling pressure tomake the call to press charges
that were very aggressive, but Ijust knew I needed more facts.
I needed some more literally,some more evidence.
Speaker 1 (30:40):
Okay, so you get these facts I do From them.
I did.
What helps you make thedecision to say I'm not going to
seek anything, or did you?
Okay, so what did you decide?
Speaker 2 (30:52):
So I got the evidence and my cousin Britton bless his
heart, he's a financial advisorand has a lot more knowledge in
a lot of areas that I didn'thave, so he was my right-hand
man for all of that.
And so we poured through the,the literally poured through the
evidence and read it and readit, and read it, and read it and
(31:12):
finally got to the place oflike this was literally an
accident.
And so I I remember sitting inthe judge's chambers with the
judge that was appointed to thecase, to the DA, to like
prosecutors and insurance folksand like this room full of
(31:33):
people, and they were like, okay, so we all read through it all
together and there was all theselike, like reconstructed, like
drawings and things, and it wasbasically came down to okay,
jessica, what do you want to do?
And I was like I'm not doinganything, and so all of them it
(31:55):
was just like a kind of like oneof those moments of like
complete, like you couldliterally hear a pin drop.
And so the judge asked, or theDA asked me again.
She was like no, really like,what do you want to do?
So I mean she like you're 32,your kids are six and nine, and
this and that and the other andthere was not a will and blah,
(32:15):
blah, blah, blah, blah, like wecan really go after this guy and
I'm like, no, we can't, wecannot, because his children are
also the same ages of mychildren, because they all go to
school together, and I knowthis person and I know his wife,
because we work together, andI'm going to choose to not do
anything.
Speaker 1 (32:35):
Wow, I got to say when you said that it's weird,
Like I got emotional.
Speaker 2 (32:40):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (32:41):
That's a, yeah, that's a—because that's a true
like—man.
That's huge, and most peopledon't make that decision.
I can imagine like they'reprobably like what do you mean
nothing?
Speaker 2 (32:57):
And they did say that , and so I said—I was just like.
You know, my kids lost theirdad.
I'm going to get it's emotionalto talk about Okay, because he,
it was an accident, and so whatright do I have to press
(33:18):
charges against him and take himaway from his kids?
And he didn't mean to.
He truly didn't mean to.
I don't have the right to dothat.
And so, literally, sitting inthat office with all of those
people who were in tears at thispoint, including the judge were
(33:39):
in tears, that's, I choseforgiveness, wow.
Speaker 1 (33:44):
Wow, wow, yeah, okay, I got more questions.
I don't really know how to askthem, I guess why.
Speaker 2 (34:01):
Why?
Yeah, I know, I mean it's.
Why, yeah, I know.
Speaker 3 (34:16):
I mean my.
Speaker 2 (34:16):
Christianity came into play, but it had never been
tested yet up until that pointof my life and I, just at that,
I had only been in counselingfor a week or two at that point,
I mean because it was still, Isay a week or two At that point,
when I was in that meeting.
It had been a couple of monthsof weekly counseling and I was
still so mad.
I was so mad at God, so mad Iwasn't even mad at the man who
(34:41):
did it anymore, I was just madat God who, at that point, in my
opinion, allowed it to happen.
Speaker 1 (34:50):
So you had two really good men.
Speaker 2 (34:52):
I did.
Speaker 1 (34:53):
Involved in a really bad thing.
Speaker 2 (34:54):
Yes, yes, and so I just had to keep on with what I
believed was true and with whatI believe was true.
Speaker 1 (35:08):
I want to dig in more to like, as you give him
forgiveness, like how do otherpeople see that it's like you
letting him off the hook?
Or you letting him like you'redisrespecting TJ by not pressing
charges.
I want to get into all that,but we're already 35 minutes in.
Yeah, so I want to.
(35:33):
I want to respect that and justsay I want us to dig into those
.
But we're going to dig intothat as we jump into our next
episode and finish this up onforgiveness.
But just something to thinkabout, man, after listening to
that.
Like that's a.
Speaker 2 (35:44):
And that's not even the end of that portion.
Speaker 1 (35:48):
No, we'll get into that, yeah, but I want—that's a
beautiful picture of what realforgiveness looks like on a
really, really deep level.
So, wherever you're at, ifyou're struggling and you may
find yourself in the situationJess was in and you need
somebody to talk to, you wantsomebody to reach out, maybe we
can help, maybe we can just Iwill 100% talk to you, yeah.
(36:10):
And so if you're there and youneed some help, you feel stuck
and you're carrying that weightaround.
You haven't let thatforgiveness go.
Speaker 2 (36:18):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (36:19):
Reach out to us.
We'll catch up and make sure tocatch us on the second episode
as we talk about forgiveness.
Thanks, guys.
Hey guys, what's up?
I'm Greg.
I hope you guys are ready tounpack and get into some good
conversations today.
Speaker 2 (00:07):
And I'm Jess, and this is our podcast Baggage
Claim.
Thank you for joining us.
Speaker 1 (00:16):
What's up everybody.
Welcome to Baggage Claim.
If this is your first time here, welcome time of year.
Welcome If you're a regularattender or downloader, listener
whatever you call thosepodcasting listener folks.
Thanks for coming back.
I was just about.
Speaker 2 (00:33):
I'm sorry I interrupted you.
I was just about I was thinking, like you know, in my brain
thank you, Greg, for doing thisevery single time, because I
would never be able to say thesame thing every time, like you
say.
And then you did all that, andthen I just didn't do any of
that.
Speaker 1 (00:49):
Yeah, thank you.
So, wherever you're at, grabyour coffee, grab a drink, pull
up to our table If you'redriving down the road, maybe a
bit difficult, grab that coffeein hand.
Just pretend like, and justpretend like you're pulling up
to the table with us and justhaving some fun conversations
and we're hoping to create somecommunity and some conversation
around relationships, life andall the stuff in between.
(01:12):
Yeah, and just have a good timewhile we're doing it.
Speaker 2 (01:15):
Speaking of good time .
Speaker 1 (01:17):
Ooh go.
Speaker 3 (01:17):
Dawgs, go Dawgs.
Speaker 2 (01:19):
Well, that too.
Question time.
Speaker 3 (01:23):
Question time.
It's question time.
Speaker 1 (01:26):
Yeah, there we go.
Come on, now Go for it.
Speaker 2 (01:28):
Okay, when you're putting on your socks and shoes,
is it sock, sock, shoe shoe, oris it sock shoe, sock shoe?
Speaker 1 (01:41):
I put on both my socks, then I put on my shoes,
and I always put my right sockon first and my left, do you
really?
I always put my right foot infirst.
Speaker 3 (01:50):
I'm just saying, if you do sock shoe, sock shoe,
I've got some serious questions.
Yeah, you're psychotic.
Yes, that's like— Do you dothat?
No, oh.
Speaker 2 (01:59):
I'm not— that's like— Y'all both are looking at me
with a cute eye.
Speaker 3 (02:02):
Yeah, I was just like are you that person there?
Speaker 2 (02:05):
are people that do that.
There are people.
Speaker 3 (02:07):
Because it's like borderline savagery.
Speaker 1 (02:10):
Like, put a sock on and a shoe, then your other foot
is just out there, just rawdogging lines.
Speaker 3 (02:16):
You gotta have the standoff with the inch
difference.
Yeah well, it's just ball.
It's like nothing to cover it.
Speaker 2 (02:20):
Just out there naked.
Speaker 1 (02:21):
Yeah, it's just nothing, it's just out there
Like that just seems, that seemswrong.
Speaker 3 (02:26):
I mean that's the equivalent of like putting one
leg in your underwear and thenputting one leg of your pants on
before putting the other leg ofyour underwear in.
It is the equivalent.
Speaker 2 (02:32):
Yes, it is.
Speaker 3 (02:33):
It's just wrong.
Speaker 1 (02:42):
I'm just saying people do that.
That's actually a good quote,that's so good.
Speaker 3 (02:45):
Yes, actually yes next week tune in to Greg's
response on what it's like right.
Speaker 2 (02:51):
So you want to try sock shoe, sock shoe yeah, I'm
putting my sock in my shoe.
Speaker 1 (02:56):
I'll try that tomorrow, please do report back
to all of us.
I will.
It's going to feel so weird.
It's just going to be weird.
I can tell you already.
It just feels weird thinkingabout it.
Speaker 2 (03:06):
I know I thought about it when I was putting on
my socks and shoes to go to thegym earlier.
I was like here I am again,sock, sock, shoe, shoe, and it
is.
I was just thinking like, yeah,I do my right.
One first.
Speaker 3 (03:19):
Do you always do the right one first?
Speaker 2 (03:20):
Yeah, the right one first.
Yeah, I'm right-handed.
I feel like it's just likeright side dominant.
Speaker 1 (03:23):
I think you're in a habit If you'll notice, you
always will put on the same sockevery time.
Just out of habit, that's true,yeah, it is, it's the same way,
like you brush your teeth withthe same hand every time.
Speaker 3 (03:33):
Well, yeah, that's dominance of your hand.
Speaker 2 (03:39):
It is, he will do it with his left hand.
He had to try to remap my brain.
Speaker 3 (03:42):
I know, oh, so proud of you, yeah, but no, like
literally last weekend I wasliterally thinking that because
I don't put my shoes on one,like specific right or left at a
time.
Speaker 2 (03:54):
You do not.
Speaker 3 (03:55):
No, it's just, whichever one I pick up first, I
just put it on.
Speaker 2 (03:59):
I pick up or like in the mornings, like while you're
fixing coffee, I will bring mysocks and shoes into where we
like the room In the kitchen,the bourbon room area, the
keeping room or bourbon room orwhatever and I sit and I but I
carry my shoes correctly, likeright and left, and so that's
(04:20):
how I sit them down and I putthem on.
Speaker 1 (04:22):
If I'm putting on flip flops, it's always the
right one first.
Speaker 2 (04:25):
Me too the more.
Speaker 1 (04:28):
You know I have a question Now.
You know the more you know.
So do you tip at a restaurantwhere they have to, like you
have to do all, like they don'treally do anything, like you do
all the work?
Speaker 3 (04:46):
Ooh, this is going to be a sensitive one.
Speaker 1 (04:48):
Like you do all the work for tipping and then they
turn around so that you tip themand they didn't really do
anything other than take yourcard, like they're not bringing
you anything, they're not doinganything, they're just, you're
just tipping.
Speaker 3 (05:02):
Hmm, does that make sense.
It's kind of like theequivalent of tipping for a
to-go order Right.
Speaker 2 (05:09):
Yes, yeah, okay, it's like.
Speaker 1 (05:11):
I order, like I do a pickup, and I go order like if
I'm doing a pickup at Starbucksor something, and you do it
through the app and it's thereyou go in.
Do you tip?
Because you've done everything?
All they've done is made thecoffee.
They're getting paid to makethe coffee.
Speaker 2 (05:24):
They literally did their job.
Speaker 1 (05:25):
Yeah, and so should I tip them.
Speaker 3 (05:28):
Oh, you're going to open up a can of worms even with
listeners, on this one.
Speaker 1 (05:31):
I don't know, I'm just curious Do you so, if it's
like a non-service thing,because tipping culture is
insane.
It's a little out of controlthough.
Speaker 2 (05:40):
You buy a water at the gas station.
Speaker 3 (05:42):
It's like oh, would you like a tip?
I was like no, like I'm notgoing to tip for buying a water.
Speaker 2 (05:46):
Yeah, you could tip at the convenience store now,
yes, do you really yeah.
Speaker 1 (05:50):
Yeah everywhere.
Speaker 2 (05:51):
Yeah, I don't ever go inside.
You go inside to buy yourslushies, don't hate on my
slushies.
Speaker 3 (05:59):
I'm coming here to get that, and it asked me if I
wanted a tip.
And I'm like I'm not.
I went into a store, walked theaisles, got what I wanted.
Speaker 2 (06:08):
Oh my gosh.
Speaker 1 (06:09):
Yeah, it was interesting Because in some of
the places, like at the Bravesgame, if you tip they don't get
the tip.
The tips all go into somethingelse and go somewhere else.
The person that's workingdoesn't get the tip when you go
to a Braves game and you get—Did you ask you walk down the
thing?
You get the hot dog, you getthe stuff and then they
literally go punch the buttonthat you're standing there
(06:30):
because you can't touch it andthen they want you to tip them
for that and I'm like why wouldI—.
Speaker 2 (06:35):
Did you ask them if they could get the tip?
How do you know that?
Speaker 1 (06:38):
I was told by Thomas, which means it couldn't be true
, but it could be false.
Speaker 2 (06:42):
Thomas is confidently wrong.
Still, yeah, he is.
Bless his heart at this phaseof life, if I'm wrong, about
that.
Speaker 1 (06:48):
Please correct me, but like you're tipping and they
didn't really do it, they'rejust standing there.
They didn't walk me through theprocess, they didn't put the
condiments on my hot dog, theydidn't do anything, they just
punched some buttons on thething and I'm like I should tip
you for that, Like I don't.
Speaker 2 (07:02):
I'm confused.
I can push the buttons.
Speaker 1 (07:04):
Yeah, just watch me do it, I can do it good too.
Speaker 2 (07:07):
Wow.
Speaker 3 (07:08):
Usually I try to always be a generous tipper, but
if it's like out of control insome areas, like that, I don't.
I don't know Now if I'm in arestaurant, I will tip.
I'm a good tipper at arestaurant.
Speaker 1 (07:20):
Like if I'm sitting down like a service kind of like
.
I believe in tipping and Ienjoy tipping.
I actually like to tip more ifI can at times, because it's
just fun.
Speaker 2 (07:30):
Well, especially if we have a great time with the
server too.
Speaker 1 (07:32):
Yeah, yeah, it's usually a lot of fun so well all
right, good questions.
Yeah.
So let's jump into our topictoday and this is going to be
probably a heavy episode.
So we're going to start alittle light before we get in
too heavy into all the stuffwe're going to talk about.
But man, I want us to startreally quick with and you can
(07:55):
tell me, I used to do this as anopener when I would do
sometimes of group team buildingkind of things.
It was like open with a scarstory, Because every scar has a
story.
So tell me, like a physicalscar, Like I'll tell you one,
I'll start just to kind of openit up.
So I have this scar.
(08:15):
I mean, if you're listening,it's a scar on my knuckle.
Speaker 2 (08:19):
Even if you're looking on YouTube, you probably
can't see no it's on my indexfinger and it comes down pretty
far.
Speaker 1 (08:25):
It's pretty long it does.
Yeah, it's probably about aninch inch and a half on my
knuckle.
But I remember this scarbecause I was, I grew up on a
farm, kind of my grandfather, mygrandmother had a big farm.
We did cows, huge gardenchickens, the whole nine yards
Like not 10 chickens, likechicken houses, houses, yeah,
yeah, like it was work, it waswork but anyway.
(08:49):
So we had picked corn and ifyou've ever done corn, when
you're shucking corn you cut thetop off the corn and you peel
it back.
Well, my grandfather hadsharpened all the knives and I
didn't know it, and so theknives are usually really dull.
So I go to hold my hand and cut, and when I did it cut kind of
(09:10):
the—when you bend your finger itcreates, like a little knuckle,
a little extra meat part.
Well, I cut that off and itfell into the corn.
So when you bend your finger itcreates, like a little knuckle,
a little extra meat part.
Well, I cut that off and itfell into the corn.
And the first thing mygrandfather said is, well, get
that blank piece of meat out ofthe corn.
And that piece of meat was myknuckle.
Speaker 2 (09:28):
Yeah, now are you?
Okay?
Speaker 1 (09:30):
It had the little lines in it Like it took enough
off.
You could see the lines in myknuckle and the piece of meat
that was laying in the corn andnow there's really a scar.
And now every time I thinkabout it, I think of corn,
eating corn.
Speaker 3 (09:41):
So every time you see your finger, you think of corn.
Speaker 1 (09:43):
Yeah, I rub that and I'm just thinking I hate corn
Corn.
I just lie, I don't like corn.
Speaker 2 (09:48):
Which is sad because I love corn on the cob.
I love corn so much.
Speaker 1 (09:52):
But she loves garden.
Like I don't Like.
We talked about one time.
You're like let's have a garden.
I was like no.
Speaker 2 (09:57):
I'm not doing a garden, I just want to grow corn
.
Speaker 1 (09:59):
Yeah, I was like I'll go to Jaymore and get you corn,
which is a farmer's market onthe street.
I love corn, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2 (10:04):
I went to a festival over the weekend.
It had fresh roasted corn onthe cob and the willpower it
took for me not to just go thereover and over.
I didn't go there at all.
Speaker 1 (10:20):
Why did you not?
You didn't get one.
Speaker 2 (10:22):
No, because it was an apple festival so I felt like I
needed to get apple.
Speaker 1 (10:27):
You felt like you were betraying the apples.
She was going to betray theapples if she ate the corn.
Speaker 2 (10:29):
So I got sliced apple , but with warm peanut butter.
Ooh, wow, that sounds.
Speaker 1 (10:34):
Sliced apple, but with warm peanut butter.
Ooh, wow, that sounds delicious.
It was delightful, soundsdelightful.
Speaker 2 (10:38):
But the fresh roasted corn on the cob, you could
smell it.
Oh my, yes, I don't like cornman.
Speaker 1 (10:44):
It gets in your teeth .
It's a lot to eat.
I love corn and you and yourbrother eat corn the weirdest of
anybody.
You want corn on the cob andthen you cut it all off.
Speaker 2 (10:52):
I don't do it every time.
Speaker 3 (10:53):
Y'all spend like 30 minutes you eat corn on the cob
and then you cut it off the cob,not every time.
Speaker 1 (10:58):
They cut it off the cob to eat it.
Speaker 2 (11:00):
They don't do it every time.
I'm like what's the use of it?
They just get the corn withoutthe corn on the cob.
It's corn.
On what kind of mood it is,what kind of mood I'm in Feels
like it.
Speaker 3 (11:11):
So scar stories.
Sorry, what's your scar?
Speaker 2 (11:14):
I don't have very many scars.
I have a surgery scar.
Speaker 1 (11:19):
That's not fun, but I have a scar under my chin and
you can only see it.
Speaker 2 (11:26):
Yep, can I do that?
Speaker 1 (11:26):
You can't see it, I still couldn't see it.
Speaker 2 (11:28):
Whichever, well, because a plastic surgeon
corrected it.
Speaker 1 (11:31):
Oh, excuse me.
Speaker 2 (11:32):
I was five and where you and I grew up, there was a
Dairy Queen in town, up on thehill where there's a pharmacy
there now there's a Walgreensthere now Walgreens yeah, and
you remember the big hamburgerslide.
Speaker 1 (11:49):
The Hamburglar.
Speaker 2 (11:51):
No, that's McDonald's .
But it was a hamburger slideand it had just rained.
But I was five and I was theonly child, so I was
entertaining myself, and so Iwas going up the slide backwards
thinking I could crawl up it,but it was wet and I busted my
chin open and I had to go getlike a million stitches on the
inside A million or like two.
(12:11):
Probably more like 20.
20?
Inside and outside, like theplastic surgeon did a whole
thing.
20?
It was a lot.
Speaker 1 (12:19):
All right, I'm going to have to get some
qualifications on that you canask my mom?
Speaker 2 (12:22):
My dad was not—oh, it was just me and my dad and my
grandmother.
Speaker 1 (12:27):
I'll check with your dad.
Speaker 2 (12:28):
We can ask some parents.
Yeah, I'll verify, but it was alot of stitches and I still
have a scar, but you have tolook for it really hard.
Speaker 1 (12:33):
I never noticed you had a scar there.
Speaker 2 (12:34):
It was a plastic surgeon did a great job.
Speaker 1 (12:37):
So the whole idea is is that trauma?
Yeah, either on the slide orfrom your grandfather's sharp
knives, you're cutting yourfinger off.
Cut your finger off.
Trauma leaves scars.
Speaker 2 (12:49):
It does.
Speaker 1 (12:50):
Sometimes physical scars, sometimes emotional scars
, yeah, but trauma leaves scars,it does.
Speaker 2 (12:56):
The trauma on both of us.
It doesn't hurt anymore, but wecertainly remember how we got
it.
Yeah, I remember it.
Speaker 1 (13:01):
I remember it clearly .
And so the idea is that all ofour lives, no matter where
you're at and how long you'vebeen on this journey of life,
you have scars.
Yeah, some are emotional, someare, you know, small and easy,
and some are deep and hurtful,and some are hard to talk about,
some are hard to do.
(13:22):
But the idea and the topic wewant to get into today is
forgiveness, yeah, forgiveness,and we're going to get.
We're going to hit allspectrums of forgiveness, from
the deep, deep stuff to the tothe lighthearted stuff.
We're going to try allspectrums of forgiveness, from
the deep, deep stuff to thelighthearted stuff.
We're going to try to hit itall.
We'll get as much as we can inand if we have to do two parts,
we do two parts.
(13:43):
But we'll see how we go, yeah,and see how it unfolds.
Speaker 2 (13:46):
So, like you said earlier, this episode is going
to be a little heavier and itmay be a two-parter, and that's
cool if we get there, that's allright yeah, we haven't done
like a heavy episode like thissince probably our very first
one where we shared like kind ofhow we got here.
Speaker 1 (14:02):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (14:03):
But this is a big topic that's really important.
Speaker 1 (14:06):
So we're talking about forgiveness, yeah, and
about what does forgiveness looklike?
What does that mean?
Who's that for?
What's the purpose of it?
Do we even need it, or why isit?
I mean, what's the purpose ofit.
Speaker 2 (14:21):
Forgiveness means different things to different
people, though.
Speaker 1 (14:25):
Does it or should it?
Speaker 2 (14:31):
So you know like people throw around the phrase
forgive and forget.
You know, blah, blah, blah.
That's a pretty common phrase.
Speaker 3 (14:39):
Or I forgive and don't forget.
Speaker 2 (14:41):
Well, that's really more like what people actually
do, yeah, honestly.
Speaker 1 (14:47):
Well, I don't think those two are synonymous
together.
Speaker 2 (14:50):
No.
Speaker 1 (14:50):
I don't think.
I think we it's time for us togo okay, let's kind of break
that and say let's don't putlike I'm not saying let's
forgive so we can forget.
I say we forgive so we can behealthy and we can move on.
Speaker 2 (15:05):
Well, that goes back.
That kind of boils down to thebasic question is what does
forgive mean?
Speaker 3 (15:11):
to you.
Speaker 2 (15:12):
Not you personally, but in general.
What does forgive mean to youwhen you think about that?
So we looked up the definitionearlier.
Yeah, and I don't have my phonewhere the definition was.
Speaker 1 (15:25):
Like.
For me, forgiveness isreleasing guilt or weight of
something that someone has doneto me in some manner, whether
that be.
Whatever that looks like, I hadto go through a part where I
forgave my dad, and that was ahuge process for me and it took
a long time.
(15:46):
Did I ever forget?
No, I still haven't forgottenit.
But at the same time, I forgavehim and tried to move forward
in that relationship.
Speaker 2 (15:57):
Right.
So it's like forgiveness canlook a little—.
Michael, can you look up whatforgive in the dictionary?
Speaker 1 (16:03):
the definition is what the goog says about it.
Speaker 2 (16:06):
The googs Because, like yeah, to choose not to hold
resentment is a big piece of it.
Speaker 1 (16:14):
Michael doesn't have reception now.
He's standing on the chair withhis arm stuck to the ceiling.
We gotta get some Wafa up inthis place.
Speaker 2 (16:22):
We need to get that imaginary net thing, they told
us about.
Yeah, but I do remember it wasto choose not to be resentful
and not to hold on to anger.
Speaker 3 (16:35):
To cease to feel resentment against an offender.
Speaker 2 (16:39):
Offender.
Speaker 3 (16:40):
Okay so someone who has offended you, you cease to
feel resentment towards thembecause of the offense.
Speaker 1 (16:48):
Yeah, gotcha.
So sometimes even likeforgiveness, is this weird thing
?
Like someone may have offendedyou and they don't even know
they offended you and you'relike I can't believe.
They still just walk aroundhere like everything's OK.
Speaker 2 (17:03):
Well, they may have no idea, everything is OK yeah.
Speaker 1 (17:06):
And so you're toting around, like when you don't
forgive someone, it's almostlike this huge weight that you
put on your shoulders, yeah, andyou carry around with you
through life and that soforgiveness isn't for that other
person, the forgiveness is foryou.
Speaker 2 (17:22):
Yeah, would you agree that forgiveness is feelings
based?
Speaker 1 (17:26):
Oh, a thousand percent.
Speaker 2 (17:27):
Yes.
Speaker 1 (17:28):
One hundred percent.
Speaker 2 (17:30):
So, then, that means that forgiveness is a choice.
Speaker 1 (17:36):
Yes, do you agree?
Speaker 2 (17:38):
100%.
I want to see where you are atwith that.
Speaker 1 (17:41):
Yeah, I think— you have to choose to forgive.
Yeah, I think that's probablythe hardest thing for us as
humans is like we don't want toforgive people because we want
to hold on.
We have this idea of justiceand what's right and what's
wrong, and we're like, no, no,no, they wronged me, so I'm not
forgiving them, and I'm likethat just hurts you it doesn't,
it does.
Speaker 2 (18:01):
And you know you said as humans, I mean honestly God
is the only one that can trulyforgive.
Speaker 1 (18:08):
Right.
Speaker 2 (18:09):
And to literally forget it?
Yeah, because that's what hepromises.
So as humans, we get to chooseif we want to extend that to
somebody else, and it may noteven be.
I'm extending forgiveness toyou because, like you said, some
people don't even know thatthey've offended you.
Speaker 1 (18:27):
Right.
Speaker 2 (18:27):
Because the forgiveness is for you as well.
Speaker 1 (18:30):
Yeah, have you ever had that where you went to
someone and say I forgive youfor this, and they're like oh, I
didn't even know.
Have you ever had that happen?
I had.
It was really, really awkward.
Not that I can think of.
Speaker 2 (18:43):
I feel like that'd be something I would remember it
was really awkward.
Speaker 1 (18:46):
Yeah, it was weird, you know, because sometimes you
it's really interesting when youlook at forgiveness, because
you can take the stance whenyou've been traumatized by
something and there's differentlevels of that.
Like someone said somethingthat hurt your feelings, Okay,
well, forgive them, but therewas something where there was
(19:07):
actual trauma towards you.
It may have been physical,mentally, emotionally towards
you.
That's a whole differentballgame.
It sure is.
I mean, that's a differentlevel of forgiveness, that's a
different—it's somethingcompletely opposite of just like
, well, they hurt my feelings,so I'm going to forgive them.
I didn't get invited to this.
Speaker 2 (19:29):
Right and so— you and I both have experienced trauma,
different kinds of trauma.
Speaker 1 (19:36):
Yes.
Speaker 2 (19:37):
Where we got to choose whether or not we were
going to forgive.
Speaker 1 (19:42):
Yes, so I we'll get into yours first and then we can
dive into my trauma next.
So kind of tell the story ofwhat happened to you, how you
know, just kind of lay out thestory of that, and then we'll
walk through the part of theforgiveness part of that for you
(20:02):
.
Speaker 2 (20:03):
So, like we said, this is going to be a heavier
episode, more emotional.
So if you don't know uspersonally and if you haven't
listened to previous episodes,especially our first episode of
how Did we Get here, that wementioned a little bit ago, so
(20:23):
we both experienced trauma in adifferent way.
So long I don't even know if Ican do a long story, short
situation.
Speaker 1 (20:34):
No, just tell the story.
Speaker 2 (20:34):
Okay, I don't even know if I can do a long story
short situation.
No, just tell the story, okay.
So it's interesting that we'retalking about this this week
because in a couple of daysit'll be 15 years ago.
My first husband was killed inan accident.
He rode bicycles.
It started off mountain bikingand then several months later he
(21:02):
got into road biking and he hadgotten this fancy new road bike
he was so excited about.
And he had only been on oneother short ride and this was
his first like long road ridewith a friend, our friend named
Chad, and on the road ride hewas actually hit by a car and
(21:31):
killed, and I mean as the personthat was responsible.
Speaker 1 (21:37):
And so, yeah, I guess , walking forward through the
point of this discussion for theforgiveness part of so, at this
point though in your life, justto help give some more context
to the story, Thank you.
You and TJ had been married forhow long?
Up until?
Speaker 2 (21:57):
this point 11 years.
Speaker 1 (21:59):
Yeah, and how long did you date before you like?
Speaker 2 (22:01):
High school yeah like high school sweethearts.
Speaker 1 (22:04):
And so you guys, you're likehow long did you
say—how many?
Speaker 2 (22:08):
years Together all the— how long were you married?
We were married for 11, but weprobably—I guess 14, 15 years
all together.
Speaker 1 (22:17):
Okay, so 14, 15 years you guys had two kids.
You had Aaron and Thomas.
How old were Thomas?
Speaker 2 (22:22):
They were six and nine Okay.
Speaker 1 (22:24):
And so you guys are going to a Georgia game later
that day.
Speaker 2 (22:27):
We were.
Speaker 1 (22:28):
With Chad and his wife.
Speaker 2 (22:30):
Lisa, but you guys were all friends, we were.
So thank you, because it's likefor me, it was like there's a
lot of that story, so I want tomake sure that we just I'm
sticking to where we're going.
So thank you to where we'regoing.
So, thank you.
So, yes, so Chad and TJ weregoing to ride their bikes from
(22:51):
Chad and Lisa's house to mygrandmother's house, which was
towards Athens.
That's why we were meetingthere, and me and Lisa and all
the kids we were going to rideto Nanny's house and meet there.
So, yes, so in the midst ofthat is when he was killed.
Speaker 1 (23:10):
Okay.
So yeah, he leaves in themorning going for a bike ride
with Chad.
You guys are getting the kidsready, you're going to go meet
them, going to the Georgia game.
And then you get a phone call.
Speaker 2 (23:21):
I got a phone call and then, as my phone was
ringing, my doorbell was ringingand banging on the door and
that was Lisa, and she was theone to tell me that there was an
accident and that we need to goto the hospital.
And so there's a lot of thatthat I don't really remember has
to be yes, yeah, and so I'mpretty sure not 100% I'm pretty
(23:46):
sure that Lisa is the one thattook me to the hospital.
Again, I'm not sure because Idon't remember where my kids
were and I don't remember whereher kids were, but I just
remember her waking me up, andthen we were at the hospital and
all I knew was that Chad keptsaying that quote unquote they
(24:06):
were working on him and that wejust need to get to the hospital
.
Speaker 1 (24:11):
Which he died on the scene.
Speaker 2 (24:13):
Immediately.
Yeah, okay, immediately.
Yes, he passed away immediately, okay.
Speaker 1 (24:20):
Yeah, so sorry not to be disrespectful at all, and I
don't want.
If people listen to this new TJand new you are people who are
and have heard this there's alot of people who have gotten a
phone call in their life andeverything changed, yes, or have
got a knock at their door andeverything changed, yes, and so
(24:41):
I don't want to.
I want to respect the heavinessof that at the same time.
Speaker 2 (24:47):
Yeah, but also I appreciate you walking me
through telling the story,because you know it as well as I
do at this point, because,again, where we're going with
this is the forgiveness aspectof it.
Speaker 1 (25:01):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (25:02):
And so I might could get lost in the details, and I
might could even get lost in myfuzzy recollection, just because
I'm a Christian, we'reChristians and I know that
there's pieces of that that,literally, the Lord has
protected in my heart and myhead, because it probably would
be too painful if I couldremember it.
And so you leading me throughtelling the story is is a very
(25:26):
good thing for me.
Speaker 1 (25:26):
I don't want people to think you're prying it out of
me, um, but yeah yeah, well,that's a it's not a fun thing to
no, to walk through and relive.
Yeah, um, so okay, so you getto the hospital.
You realize he's not made ithis best friend, chad, which was
friends with you guys.
Speaker 2 (25:45):
Yeah, he was injured, there was a lot going on with
him and again the fuzzy, I don'tknow.
They were already in the ER.
There was this kind of like aprivate family area where we all
got to go.
Several of my family memberswere already there and I don't
(26:09):
know how they knew and the wifeof the man who hit TJ, who was
my friend from work, was there,and so at that point is when I
didn't know for sure what hadhappened or who was involved,
(26:31):
but she was there, and so thewife of the man who actually hit
him.
Speaker 1 (26:39):
Okay, so what actually happened?
Can you share that with us?
Speaker 2 (26:42):
yeah, um, well it, I waited um.
I waited months for the statepatrol report.
Um because I wanted to makesure that he, the man that hit
tj um, was not impaired in anyway.
Speaker 1 (26:58):
Um, like you know, outside of that, like besides
being impaired, like whatactually happened.
Speaker 2 (27:05):
So the road that it happened on there's a hill, and
at the crest of the hill youreally truly can't see the road
past that point.
And so the man who had leftwork literally at dawn I mean,
it was barely daylight he wasjust going to work, okay.
Speaker 1 (27:24):
So he was on his way to work, he was From home.
Work Okay.
Speaker 2 (27:25):
So he was on his way to work, he was From home okay,
he was from home on his way towork and he just literally
didn't see him.
He just literally didn't see TJand Chad.
Speaker 1 (27:32):
Gotcha.
Speaker 2 (27:33):
Just simply because the way the road, the hill
crested and the way the roadwent, Right, and so he just he
struck him with a car.
He struck him With his truck.
It was pulled over and stopped.
Yes, okay, and he's the onethat called 911 and stayed and
the whole thing Gotcha yeah.
Speaker 1 (27:48):
Okay, so you waited to get the police report for— I
did?
Speaker 2 (27:53):
I wanted to make sure that he was not impaired in any
way, wasn't distracted or therewas not some kind of a
situation that would have—notintentionally caused the
accident, but a reason why?
Speaker 1 (28:08):
Yeah, so he wasn't drunk driving.
Speaker 2 (28:09):
Right those things.
So I mean it was literally sixor eight months.
It was a long time, and thestate patrol report was, I mean,
two or three inches thick ofinformation and reconstructing
the whole thing.
Speaker 1 (28:23):
So in those six months feelings toward this guy
I mean changed everything.
Speaker 2 (28:31):
Yeah, and it's a family that I had known for a
handful of years.
Speaker 1 (28:35):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (28:36):
And so I tried to.
I mean, of course I was angry,obviously Right, but I tried to
refrain my judgment is awfulword, but I try to refrain my
like decision making till I knewthe facts, because Well, the
decision being in that situation.
(28:58):
This whole time I had the countyDA, I had judges, I had
attorneys from the insurancecompanies, I had a lot of folks
trying to see if I wanted topress charges and what kind of
charges I wanted to press,ranging from you know whatever
(29:22):
and I don't know what theterminology might be but like an
involuntary manslaughter orthis or that or the other.
But I didn't have theinformation that I knew I needed
to be able to make that calland I was the person that was
going to make the call of whathappened to this man's life for
(29:43):
a certain amount of years.
Yeah, and so I knew I neededthe rest of the information
before I could do that.
Wow.
Speaker 1 (29:50):
That's a heavy, huge decision, because you're
weighing anger, frustration,hurt.
Speaker 2 (29:56):
Against facts.
Speaker 1 (29:57):
Yeah, against the facts of what really happened.
Yes, and that whole ideawelling up inside of you as
human is is this, is this realor is this not real?
Is this?
Like what do I do here?
Yeah, so were you feelingpressured in any way to make a
certain decision, like, were youfeeling pressured by those guys
, the courts or the?
Speaker 2 (30:19):
legal system where we live.
Yes, I was feeling pressure tomake the call to press charges
that were very aggressive, but Ijust knew I needed more facts.
I needed some more literally,some more evidence.
Speaker 1 (30:40):
Okay, so you get these facts I do From them.
I did.
What helps you make thedecision to say I'm not going to
seek anything, or did you?
Okay, so what did you decide?
Speaker 2 (30:52):
So I got the evidence and my cousin Britton bless his
heart, he's a financial advisorand has a lot more knowledge in
a lot of areas that I didn'thave, so he was my right-hand
man for all of that.
And so we poured through the,the literally poured through the
evidence and read it and readit, and read it, and read it and
(31:12):
finally got to the place oflike this was literally an
accident.
And so I I remember sitting inthe judge's chambers with the
judge that was appointed to thecase, to the DA, to like
prosecutors and insurance folksand like this room full of
(31:33):
people, and they were like, okay, so we all read through it all
together and there was all theselike, like reconstructed, like
drawings and things, and it wasbasically came down to okay,
jessica, what do you want to do?
And I was like I'm not doinganything, and so all of them it
(31:55):
was just like a kind of like oneof those moments of like
complete, like you couldliterally hear a pin drop.
And so the judge asked, or theDA asked me again.
She was like no, really like,what do you want to do?
So I mean she like you're 32,your kids are six and nine, and
this and that and the other andthere was not a will and blah,
(32:15):
blah, blah, blah, blah, like wecan really go after this guy and
I'm like, no, we can't, wecannot, because his children are
also the same ages of mychildren, because they all go to
school together, and I knowthis person and I know his wife,
because we work together, andI'm going to choose to not do
anything.
Speaker 1 (32:35):
Wow, I got to say when you said that it's weird,
Like I got emotional.
Speaker 2 (32:40):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (32:41):
That's a, yeah, that's a—because that's a true
like—man.
That's huge, and most peopledon't make that decision.
I can imagine like they'reprobably like what do you mean
nothing?
Speaker 2 (32:57):
And they did say that , and so I said—I was just like.
You know, my kids lost theirdad.
I'm going to get it's emotionalto talk about Okay, because he,
it was an accident, and so whatright do I have to press
(33:18):
charges against him and take himaway from his kids?
And he didn't mean to.
He truly didn't mean to.
I don't have the right to dothat.
And so, literally, sitting inthat office with all of those
people who were in tears at thispoint, including the judge were
(33:39):
in tears, that's, I choseforgiveness, wow.
Speaker 1 (33:44):
Wow, wow, yeah, okay, I got more questions.
I don't really know how to askthem, I guess why.
Speaker 2 (34:01):
Why?
Yeah, I know, I mean it's.
Why, yeah, I know.
Speaker 3 (34:16):
I mean my.
Speaker 2 (34:16):
Christianity came into play, but it had never been
tested yet up until that pointof my life and I, just at that,
I had only been in counselingfor a week or two at that point,
I mean because it was still, Isay a week or two At that point,
when I was in that meeting.
It had been a couple of monthsof weekly counseling and I was
still so mad.
I was so mad at God, so mad Iwasn't even mad at the man who
(34:41):
did it anymore, I was just madat God who, at that point, in my
opinion, allowed it to happen.
Speaker 1 (34:50):
So you had two really good men.
Speaker 2 (34:52):
I did.
Speaker 1 (34:53):
Involved in a really bad thing.
Speaker 2 (34:54):
Yes, yes, and so I just had to keep on with what I
believed was true and with whatI believe was true.
Speaker 1 (35:08):
I want to dig in more to like, as you give him
forgiveness, like how do otherpeople see that it's like you
letting him off the hook?
Or you letting him like you'redisrespecting TJ by not pressing
charges.
I want to get into all that,but we're already 35 minutes in.
Yeah, so I want to.
(35:33):
I want to respect that and justsay I want us to dig into those
.
But we're going to dig intothat as we jump into our next
episode and finish this up onforgiveness.
But just something to thinkabout, man, after listening to
that.
Like that's a.
Speaker 2 (35:44):
And that's not even the end of that portion.
Speaker 1 (35:48):
No, we'll get into that, yeah, but I want—that's a
beautiful picture of what realforgiveness looks like on a
really, really deep level.
So, wherever you're at, ifyou're struggling and you may
find yourself in the situationJess was in and you need
somebody to talk to, you wantsomebody to reach out, maybe we
can help, maybe we can just Iwill 100% talk to you, yeah.
(36:10):
And so if you're there and youneed some help, you feel stuck
and you're carrying that weightaround.
You haven't let thatforgiveness go.
Speaker 2 (36:18):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (36:19):
Reach out to us.
We'll catch up and make sure tocatch us on the second episode
as we talk about forgiveness.
Thanks, guys.
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