September 30, 2025 • 48 mins
Heartbreak doesn’t send a calendar invite. One moment you’re doing everything “right”—serving, parenting, showing up—and the next you’re staring at a truth you never thought would touch your life. Greg opens up about growing up with an abusive, alcoholic father and the vow he made to become a different kind of man, then walks us through the gut-punch of discovering an affair, the sleepless months of bargaining, and the quiet, stubborn decision to let go.
We talk about the hidden drift that can sneak into a marriage and why warning lights are so easy to miss until the dashboard is flashing. Greg shares the vulnerable parts—anger that started to look like his father’s, nights on the porch to avoid rooms that hurt, and the moment in a bar when a clear inner voice asked, “What are you doing?” He explains how forgiveness became less a moral stance and more a survival skill: necessary for co‑parenting, necessary for sanity, and essential for rebuilding trust with someone new. Along the way, we tackle church culture’s messy response to divorce, the unfair simplicity of taking sides, and the practical tools that help you heal without rehearsing pain.
If you’re navigating betrayal, divorce, or the aftermath of a broken promise, this conversation offers unvarnished honesty and usable hope. You’ll hear how to set boundaries, make small daily commitments that rebuild trust, and lay down the backpack of rocks you’ve carried for too long. Listen for Greg’s simple, repeatable practices that turn forgiveness into freedom and help you step into a future that isn’t defined by your past.
If this resonates, hit follow, share with a friend who needs it, and leave a review with the moment that stayed with you—your story might be the lifeline someone else is waiting for.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
SPEAKER_03 (00:00):
Hey guys, what's up?
I'm Greg.
I hope you guys are ready tounpack and get into some good
conversations today.
SPEAKER_01 (00:07):
And I'm Jess, and this is our podcast, Baggage
Claim.
Thank you for joining us.
SPEAKER_03 (00:17):
What's up, everybody?
Welcome to Baggage Claim.
If this is your first time here,welcome.
Thank you for joining us.
It is one of those nights, sobear with us.
Baggage Claim is just a greatnight, Greg.
It is a great night.
SPEAKER_00 (00:30):
I'm never not gonna laugh when we clap.
SPEAKER_03 (00:33):
When we clap to start, Jess laughs every time
we're 30 plus episodes in, andshe still does it.
Yeah.
So Baggage Claim is just a placewhere we talk about community
and we talk about uhrelationships and marriage and
all those fun things.
So are we we just I turned itoff.
SPEAKER_00 (00:55):
The air conditioner.
There we go.
SPEAKER_03 (00:57):
We're living in a wind tunnel right now.
That's okay.
We're just figuring it out as wego.
Trevor Burrus, Jr.
SPEAKER_00 (01:00):
We're at our house and we're in a what we used to
refer to as kind of like amother-in-law suite that we
converted into our podcaststudio.
Well in this area, there's likea hotel um air conditioner
heater unit in the wall.
And it's loud.
SPEAKER_03 (01:19):
And it's so nice when it's on.
SPEAKER_00 (01:20):
Oh, it is great.
SPEAKER_03 (01:21):
Yeah.
And we don't have enough moneyto buy the nice microphones yet
to bleed that out.
So if somebody wants to send usa donation of$600, we'll buy
some.
SPEAKER_00 (01:30):
But it's going to be okay because the ceiling fan is
on too.
SPEAKER_02 (01:33):
We need some air circulation.
SPEAKER_00 (01:36):
Welcome to our home podcast family.
SPEAKER_03 (01:40):
Grab your drink, pull up to the table of this
chaos with us and jump into somefun conversations as we just
dive into relationships.
We've been talking aboutforgiveness.
Uh Jess did two episodes on uhher story of forgiveness.
If you haven't caught those,make sure you listen to part one
and part two.
(02:01):
Uh part two is just as good asone.
It's it's really, really cool.
SPEAKER_00 (02:04):
I was just about to say not all conversations we
have are fun.
No.
SPEAKER_03 (02:08):
No.
Those those were, I'm justsaying those were good.
Last the last week, the one thatjust released uh on Tuesday um
is about just havingconversations.
It was all around the the ideaof all the controversy with uh
Charlie Kirk and everything thathappened with that.
So if you haven't listened tothat, check it out.
It's it's you know just uschatting about those things.
(02:29):
So um but anyway, tonight uhbefore we jump into a topic,
we're just gonna do fun fun kindof a question.
SPEAKER_00 (02:39):
Oh y'all did so good.
SPEAKER_03 (02:41):
Thank you.
SPEAKER_00 (02:41):
I didn't sing.
I have a cough still.
SPEAKER_03 (02:43):
You practiced it earlier.
SPEAKER_00 (02:44):
I got to do that.
SPEAKER_03 (02:45):
Jess has been smoking like a pack of
marlborous a day, apparently.
Stop.
SPEAKER_00 (02:48):
So she's No, I'm sick again.
Yeah Um I've got my cough dropsready, had my water, there's a
lot going on.
So if I cough, I'm really sorry.
But that's why I didn't join onthe question time trio.
SPEAKER_03 (03:01):
All right.
So, my do you want to go firstfor your question, or do you
want me to go first?
Favorite pasta.
SPEAKER_02 (03:07):
We talking like pituccini, spaghetti, a lasagna.
Like what is it?
SPEAKER_00 (03:14):
This is actually a point of contention in our
family.
SPEAKER_02 (03:16):
Really?
I had no idea.
Let's talk.
Let's open this up, let's openour baggage.
SPEAKER_00 (03:20):
Okay.
Open the baggage.
Even when the kids were little,me and all four of our kids, we
like what we have always calledfun pasta, like bow ties or
rigotoni.
SPEAKER_03 (03:33):
They just go in there and they just go freewheel
with the pasta.
They just grab any pasta.
SPEAKER_00 (03:38):
You can't just grab any pasta.
SPEAKER_03 (03:39):
It's the shape of any pasta and they throw it in
spaghetti.
SPEAKER_00 (03:43):
We do.
It's just the shapes, the funquote unquote.
Fun pasta makes head.
I know.
But it's always made us happy.
And even now with all thegrown-up kids, even our
daughter-in-law included, nowshe wants fun pasta.
SPEAKER_02 (04:02):
I mean, that's like using spaghetti noodles for mac
and cheese.
unknown (04:05):
Yes.
SPEAKER_00 (04:06):
If you want to do that, do that if that makes you
happy.
Greg, I know your answer.
Go ahead and share.
SPEAKER_03 (04:12):
Yeah.
Spaghetti noodles are forspaghetti.
Fettuccini noodles are forfettuccine.
SPEAKER_04 (04:18):
I know.
SPEAKER_03 (04:18):
Like noodles have a place, they have a purpose.
SPEAKER_04 (04:21):
They don't.
SPEAKER_03 (04:22):
And you use them.
It took me a while to where Icould get over that.
Like it just bothered me for awhile.
SPEAKER_00 (04:26):
Even now, literally, even now, up until last week, I
try to, because spaghetti ispretty much a staple in our
house weekly.
And I try to alternate.
I try to alternate.
One week we have like normal,boring noodles.
And then like the next one.
Spaghetti noodles.
SPEAKER_02 (04:45):
You mean the one that's supposed to come with.
SPEAKER_00 (04:46):
And then the next time we'll have super fun
noodles.
And so I try to alternate.
So everybody's.
SPEAKER_03 (04:56):
I was about to ask.
I was literally just about tofollow up with angel noodles.
SPEAKER_00 (04:58):
That's a whole thing, too.
He wants a big fat spaghettinoodle.
SPEAKER_03 (05:02):
He needs the noodle substance.
No, you mean angel hair pasta.
No, I don't want that.
No.
Like if you want to eat that,just go put butter in it, put it
in a bowl, and eat it byyourself.
SPEAKER_00 (05:17):
That's weird.
SPEAKER_02 (05:18):
Right?
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (05:19):
But I don't feel like the pasta's weird.
But I get to also I get to use.
I get to use our granddaughter,our one-year-old granddaughter
as an excuse.
Now I'm like, Lucy can't pick upspaghetti noodles, so we have to
have bow ties.
Or we have to have penne pastaso she can pick it up.
So I'm gonna I'm gonna brainbeing on my team.
SPEAKER_03 (05:41):
Because you don't get a good pasta to meat to
noodle ratio when you usenoodles that aren't designed for
the same.
SPEAKER_00 (05:49):
Well, when we use the fun noodles, I put extra
sauce.
There's a plan.
I have a plan.
SPEAKER_03 (05:55):
So my question, simple question.
SPEAKER_00 (05:58):
You apparently are on Greg's team with pasta.
SPEAKER_03 (06:01):
Yes.
SPEAKER_00 (06:01):
Oh my god, it's such a surprise.
Okay.
SPEAKER_03 (06:04):
When you put your blinker on.
I'll be on your team someday.
SPEAKER_00 (06:06):
Never.
SPEAKER_03 (06:07):
When you put your blinker on, are you asking
permission or making astatement?
Ooh.
That's a great question.
I think it's all contextual.
SPEAKER_00 (06:16):
Like where are you at?
Circumstances.
I'm on the road.
SPEAKER_03 (06:19):
I'm on the road and I'll put my blinker on.
SPEAKER_00 (06:21):
No, like if I'm on a two-lane road and I'm about to
turn right to turn into myschool, I'm letting you know
that's what I'm about to turn.
Yeah.
I'm making a statement.
I'm about to turn right.
So let's do this all as friends.
SPEAKER_03 (06:34):
But if we're merging people who turn their blinker on
and they just come over.
Yeah.
Like no matter what.
SPEAKER_02 (06:42):
So like if there's a car, like what would be the
blind spot, right?
Right.
And I need to get over, I'mgoing to turn my blinker on and
they're going to do one of twothings, depending on how they
drive.
They're going to speed up andget past me so that I can get
over, or they're going to slowdown and let me over.
I kind of always have thought ofblinkers as how I communicate
when I'm in a grocery store witha buggy.
(07:03):
You know, like if you're goingto walk down an aisle and be
like, oh, excuse me, or likethat way you're not like running
into people.
SPEAKER_03 (07:09):
You're just letting people know what you're doing
where you're But how about theperson in the aisle who
literally leaves their buggy inthe middle of the aisle and they
just go start walking.
I shopping looking for thecolour.
If they're like that feels likethe aisle, I'll just move the
cart.
SPEAKER_00 (07:25):
I have moved carts also.
SPEAKER_02 (07:27):
But if they're like right there, I'll just be like,
oh, excuse me, squeeze by youhere.
You know you always gotta havelike that's just thing you say.
SPEAKER_00 (07:34):
The merge it can be either or.
It's according to what kind ofperson is not.
SPEAKER_03 (07:40):
It really depends on the kind of person you are.
SPEAKER_02 (07:42):
I think it is.
But I think it's contextual.
Like if if someone's in yourspace, I feel like respectfully
it should be a hey, can I getover?
But if you're in their space,it's just, hey, I'm letting you
know.
SPEAKER_00 (07:55):
No.
SPEAKER_02 (07:56):
But I have another follow-up question since we're
talking about merging.
Zipper merge or no zipper merge?
Okay, let's discuss that nextweek.
Because we're gonna get into ourbody.
SPEAKER_03 (08:06):
Yeah, we're gonna get into it.
Okay.
All right, let's dig in.
SPEAKER_00 (08:13):
So it was my turn first to share my forgiveness
journey.
SPEAKER_03 (08:16):
Right.
SPEAKER_00 (08:17):
And you've also been on your own forgiveness journey,
although it looks different.
You have you f you you beforeyou and I got together, you had
your own journey.
Yes.
SPEAKER_03 (08:27):
And so while we're while you're sharing and
everyone out there who'slistening, if you listen to
Jess's story, you're I mean, I'msure there were tears, and I'm
sure you were like, oh my gosh,that's a wow.
Like and then because thishappens every time we're
somewhere.
Trevor Burrus, Jr.
SPEAKER_00 (08:43):
Babe, you always say this.
SPEAKER_03 (08:44):
This is Well, because it's so true.
And then when I share my story,they're like, uh What'd you do?
What'd you do?
Like, what'd you do to trashyour marriage?
And I was like, uh, thank you.
Thank you so much.
Trevor Burrus, Jr.
SPEAKER_00 (08:55):
Well, before you start getting into that, um I
want to make sure that we saythat we have always promised to
be and we will continue topromise to be respectful.
But while we're beingrespectful, we're gonna be real.
SPEAKER_03 (09:08):
Trying to be as real and honest as I can because this
does go around the world.
And um for you folks inSingapore, if you're listening
to this.
SPEAKER_00 (09:17):
Whoever you are, can you message us?
Because I'm fascinated.
SPEAKER_03 (09:20):
I would love to visit Singapore.
SPEAKER_00 (09:22):
There's so many people around the world,
literally around the world, thatare listening to us now, and I'm
just baffled.
So if you hear this and you areone of the people who are
literally around the world.
SPEAKER_03 (09:32):
If you're not in the U.S., shoot us some shoot us a
DM.
SPEAKER_00 (09:35):
Please, I'm just fascinated.
SPEAKER_03 (09:37):
Hit the text button and just say something.
You can say something random orstupid or give us some You can
give us an emoji.
I don't care.
You could ask us questions weshould ask each other.
SPEAKER_02 (09:45):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (09:46):
If you have a phone question.
So like while you're sharingtoday, there's going to be some
things that we won't share on apublic broadcast because of our
of your ch your children.
Trevor Burrus, Jr.
SPEAKER_03 (09:59):
Yeah, there's nothing that I won't share.
Like if we're on a one-on-onesession, if we're if if you're
talking to Jess and Ione-on-one, there's nothing I
won't.
I mean, I'll share my story.
I'll share my faults, I'll sharemy bad things that I've done and
the parts of my life.
Like, I don't like I'll sharethose things.
But here I there may be somethings where I'm like, I don't I
(10:21):
don't know as far as just forrespect for Callie and Cody, our
our kids.
Um I don't want to there's somethings I just be like, yeah, I
don't want to I don't want totalk about that.
SPEAKER_00 (10:30):
Well, because they still they have obviously still
very much have a relationshipwith their mother, and we're not
gonna tarnish that.
No.
And we've never tried to do thatat all.
SPEAKER_03 (10:39):
No, not at all.
I've always tried to respectthat.
Right.
So there's gonna be times ofthat, but Yes.
SPEAKER_00 (10:44):
And you'll hear too if you're listening, um
typically um Greg is the kind ofthe leader of the conversations
and helps drive it because thatis not my that's not my
strength.
And so producer Michael is gonnahelp me do that this evening
because you are telling yourstory.
Um and you shouldn't have todrive the whole conversation for
(11:07):
your own story.
And so um we're all we're just abig team today.
Yay, go team.
Um so you want to give us alittle bit of background of um
maybe your experience growing upum to kind of lead you towards
adulthood?
SPEAKER_03 (11:24):
Yeah.
I'll be I'll yeah, I'll be veryquick too and brief.
I've shared some of it, but uh Igrew up.
Um my dad was an abusive dad.
He was an alcoholic, uh, drank alot, was very, very mean to my
mom and to me and my sister.
Uh very just a messed up guy.
He had a lot of issues he neverunpacked and never dealt with
(11:47):
because his I mean, just thathis life was never that.
SPEAKER_00 (11:50):
So he There was some physical and emotional.
SPEAKER_03 (11:53):
Oh, it was lots of physical and lots of emotional.
Like, yeah, I've I've been inseveral fist fights with my dad.
unknown (11:59):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_03 (11:59):
Um, several um just like I've seen things that a kid
shouldn't have to see um in ahome.
Cops didn't scare me.
Uh when the cops showed up, itwas always a good thing.
Um it wasn't a big deal when thecops showed up.
I actually liked it when theywere around because it felt a
little safer.
SPEAKER_04 (12:15):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_03 (12:16):
Um but if it wasn't for my mom through all of that,
there uh Lord knows where Iwould be.
But growing up, I was alwaysthat I'm never gonna be like
this guy, I'm never gonna belike this guy, I'm never gonna
be like this guy.
I'm never gonna have a brokenhome.
I'm gonna fight for uh a ahealthy marriage.
I'm gonna fight for like to toto be a good dad.
(12:36):
I'm gonna fight for all thesethings.
SPEAKER_00 (12:38):
And so your childhood taught you what you
did not want to do.
SPEAKER_03 (12:42):
Right.
Yeah.
Uh the problem is, is I neverreally had anybody.
Like I never really had a I hadI had guys in my life with my
family.
My stepdad was there, he wouldtake me hunting a lot, we would
do some things together.
Yeah, my uncles were there, mygrandfather was there to teach
me work ethic and just he taughtme a lot of things growing up on
the farm.
(13:02):
Um, but in the same sense, itwas like there was never just a
um rarely a guy that I just sitdown and share my thoughts or my
feelings with or just hadconversations with.
So I never really had a whole adad thing.
And I d I I mean to this day,just sad as it is, I d I d I
still don't have that.
Like I don't have a dad thing.
I don't have a I don't have aguy in my life that if I call
(13:24):
and said, hey, I'm you know, I'mwiring up the ports tonight to
put some outlets on you and comehang out and have some beers and
do that.
Like there's nobody to call forthat other than friends that
I've created and I have.
SPEAKER_00 (13:36):
Like that also taught you what kind of dad you
want to be, because you do havethat with our boys.
SPEAKER_03 (13:40):
I do.
I uh I probably went a littleoverboard from time to time.
It took me a little to like umearly on, I was very, very
diligent and not to miss a game,not to miss anything that the
kids were involved in.
And so it it almost put so muchpressure on me to always be at
every event.
Um and then I realized one timeCallie was tiny.
(14:02):
Um she was a little bitty thing,and we would read every night to
her.
And I was I went in to read withher one night, and um I was just
we were just reading a simplebook.
She loved to read.
And I was reading this book toher, and she just said, um, she
goes, Where's your dad?
Like, I've never met him.
SPEAKER_00 (14:17):
Because the story had a daddy in it.
SPEAKER_03 (14:19):
Yeah, and there was something about that.
And I was like, and I was like,Well, my dad left oh a while
back, and she goes, Why?
Like, why why would a dad likeleave his kid?
And I was like, that's a and Istarted bawling.
It was just a weird moment forme.
Like, I'm laying in the bed withour little kid, and I'm just
like emotional, and I'm like, Idon't, I don't know.
(14:42):
Yeah.
And I realized then I'd neverreally, even in my life,
unpacked that whole idea anddealt with that trauma.
So I started down that road oftrying to do that, and I
actually took Callie to meethim.
Um She was a baby.
Yeah, she was tiny to try tofigure out just to unpack the
whole idea and just be like, allright, I gotta, I gotta I can't
(15:03):
let this control my life.
SPEAKER_04 (15:04):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_03 (15:05):
Um, but my dad was so eat up with shame and guilt
that he couldn't let go of allthe things that he knew he had
done.
Um and so I mean, my dad diedalone by himself, and it was he
was three days uh in his housebefore anybody found him.
And so it was it wasn't a as ifwhen he passed away, it wasn't,
but I I went and had aconversation with him.
(15:27):
I shared my faith.
I'd become a Christian at thistime, and I shared my faith and
um how important that was to meand how that had changed me and
who I was now as a as a man andas a dad.
And I encouraged him and and soand I told him to his face that
I forgave him.
I was like, I've I'm I'm notlooking into the past, I'm gonna
look to the future.
Um and so just being able tohave that conversation with him
(15:50):
was a huge step for me to learnabout forgiveness because I
didn't harbor anger.
I just had a lot of trauma and alot of hurt that I've never
unpacked.
SPEAKER_04 (15:57):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_03 (15:57):
Um I was angry for a while.
That's what led me to, hey,let's start kickboxing, let's
learn how to fight.
And that was probably not thebest thing for me.
SPEAKER_04 (16:06):
Right.
SPEAKER_03 (16:06):
Um, but it was fun.
I loved it.
I loved I I actually likedgetting hit, which was weird.
SPEAKER_00 (16:11):
That's strange.
SPEAKER_03 (16:12):
It's like, yeah, just kick me in the head.
And uh that's kind of fun.
Um and so I realized like thisis not a healthy place for me to
go.
And so I had to get out of that.
SPEAKER_00 (16:21):
So all of that kind of as as you're living life and
you you met the girl you'regonna marry, and what you
envisioned what marriage andfamily was gonna look like,
yeah.
You knew what you did not want.
So you were working towardsbuilding what you did want and
what you did want for your ownself as a a man and his wife.
(16:43):
And then when you all had kids,you knew what you wanted that to
look like.
SPEAKER_03 (16:46):
Right.
And so we were very intentional.
Um so even for me, like uhalcohol was a big thing for me.
I went 11 years and never dranka drop.
I just said I'm gonna walk awayfrom alcohol.
I'm d I I can't control thisright now in my life, so I'm
gonna walk away from it.
SPEAKER_04 (17:03):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_03 (17:03):
So for me, it's like I think everything in moderation
is not just I don't care ifyou're a Christian.
If you can't control youreating, then figure out some
boundaries.
Like for me, I couldn't controlmy drinking, so I walked away
for 11 years.
Um now I I have a drink.
It's not, it doesn't control me.
No.
Um there's there's alcohol inour fridge, in our fun fridge,
in the laundry room.
(17:24):
Um I don't and it's not like ohI gotta drink.
SPEAKER_00 (17:27):
Stuff will be there for two weeks at a time.
SPEAKER_03 (17:28):
Yeah, it's just like it's it's just there.
And so I walked away from that.
So and I was like, okay, I don'twant and and uh I did all the
right things.
SPEAKER_00 (17:36):
Uh quote unquote right things.
SPEAKER_03 (17:37):
Yeah, the things the church tells me to do.
Yeah.
And I'm not I'm not bashing thechurch, hear me.
But as a Christian, I was tolduh get in church, get in a small
group, uh be involved inministry, do these things, all
these I was a pastor at thetime.
SPEAKER_00 (17:52):
I was gonna say, in the midst of all that, you felt
the Lord had called you intoministry, so that was your
full-time life.
SPEAKER_03 (17:58):
Yeah.
So I was teaching and preachinguh weekly, uh, as an ordained
minister at that time, and justreally our life evolved around
church.
And so it was very much we're ina small group.
I'm giving, I'm tithing, I'mleading Bible studies, like
youth Bible studies, collegeBible studies, adult Bible.
I mean, we were our own.
SPEAKER_00 (18:17):
And then she was working at the church too, a
little bit later on.
SPEAKER_03 (18:19):
Yes, she was.
She she was at the church also.
Um and things were great.
And I just think somewhere,somehow, things got off.
You know, in marriage, it's likeyou start everything slips,
everything has those areas.
It usually starts as somethingsmall.
And when we look I don't when Ilook back, because I look back
(18:41):
on it a lot and it was like,where did I where did it go
wrong?
Like where did where did I messup?
Or where did I misstep?
Or where did what did I not seecoming?
Um, I didn't see those thewarning lights on the dashboard
pop up with the marriage.
Um because when I had when Inoticed things were off, it was
way too late.
(19:01):
Yeah.
It was way too late.
So um and so that was a man,that was one of those things
even as a the church.
I think it when when I found outit was one of those, it wasn't a
I went to both the people.
I I you know, I asked.
(19:21):
I was just like, hey, what'sgoing on?
SPEAKER_00 (19:23):
Both the people meaning your wife and the other
person in turn.
SPEAKER_03 (19:26):
It was just like yeah, and just like, hey, what
this seems weird, what's goingon?
There's some things, uh, let'sfigure this out.
And so tried to walk that roadfor months and months.
Um nothing happened, nothing wascoming.
And finally, um, I just keptdigging until I got to a point
to where it just all came to ahead.
(19:47):
Like it just all happened all ofa sudden.
SPEAKER_00 (19:49):
You mentioned seeing warning signs going off, but I
think you and I talked about bythe time there were some warning
signs, if you tried to lookback, it was already too late at
that point.
SPEAKER_03 (20:03):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (20:03):
As far as her choices.
SPEAKER_03 (20:05):
Yeah, well, we talked about too.
I was like, yeah, I'm not I'mnot a perfect guy.
I'm not a perfect, I mean, I'mnot a perfect dude.
I'm never gonna say I I'm nevergonna get on here and say, Oh,
it's perfect.
Yeah, there's been times in mylife where I dealt with
pornography uh and that was anissue.
Uh it wasn't something that runmy life.
It wasn't something that wasthere, but yeah, I had had
issues with it.
(20:25):
I dealt with it.
And and so I had guys in my lifethat tried to help hold me
accountable to those things.
SPEAKER_00 (20:31):
Um there are two sides to every story.
SPEAKER_03 (20:34):
And so Well, I had people I had people literally
church friends tell me, um andthis is what baffles me about
church people, that hey, Ideserved it.
I did the same thing because Ilooked at porn.
Because you looked at porn.
Uh so I looked at porn andbecause my wife had uh
infidelity or an affair, um, itwas the same thing.
And I'm like, I don't, I'msorry, I don't know.
(20:56):
But this is not the same thing.
SPEAKER_00 (20:58):
No, it is not.
SPEAKER_03 (20:58):
Um the Bible does say sin is sin, no matter what
that looks like.
Uh but there's obviouslydifferent consequences for sin
too.
Right.
Um that's kind of the way Ilooked at it.
So it was just needless to say,that put me down a journey of
just man, I it it happened.
I I didn't realize like when itall came out, I was like just I
(21:22):
was stunned, to say the least.
Um baffled.
There was a there was a few dayswhere I don't remember uh what
happened.
I don't remember what was goingon.
I don't it was just a It's kindalike me.
SPEAKER_00 (21:34):
It was kinda you you were just going through the
motions, but you don't rememberhow you got there.
SPEAKER_03 (21:38):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (21:38):
Yeah.
I think the Because I mean, youand I both experienced a trauma.
unknown (21:43):
Yes.
SPEAKER_00 (21:44):
And I know it's very different kinds of trauma, but
you and I both were in amarriage and we thought
everything was fine and we're onthe path of, you know, we're
making the right choices andwe're raising our family, we're
having, you know, thisrelationship and you have your
life kind of planned out.
Um and both of our marriagesended very abruptly and neither
(22:05):
one of us asked for it.
And so it's kind of like you gointo this whole like trauma
response.
Like mine lasted a lot longerbecause the trauma was quite
different.
SPEAKER_03 (22:17):
But for you Well, yours wasn't your decision or
his decision.
You know, ours was feels like itwas a decision made in the
house.
SPEAKER_00 (22:25):
True.
SPEAKER_03 (22:25):
Um and I don't I don't know if I can share this.
I I really don't.
But I think I feel like it's apart.
I feel like it's a part of ourbecause when it all came out, I
remember I really, really wantedit to work.
Like even after this affair hadbeen going on, I was like, I
remember saying, and this is myside of the story, so I don't I
(22:48):
don't mean disrespect or shamefor anyone, but I remember
asking, I was like, we have twooptions here.
Like the options are simple.
You either tell him you're doneor we're done.
Like I you have to call him andtell I have to physically see
you pick up the phone and callhim and tell him you're never
gonna talk to him again.
And she said And we're done.
She said, I can't I can't makethat phone call.
(23:08):
And I remember getting up fromthe kitchen table and I I I
don't remember, I wasdistraught.
Like I was just kind of like andI go back to my bedroom and I
start packing stuff into asuitcase for some reason.
I don't know why.
SPEAKER_04 (23:19):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_03 (23:20):
Um but I remember her coming back there and she
said something.
And and again, this is me beingcompletely transparent.
I do remember throwing anightstand at her.
SPEAKER_00 (23:32):
Towards her?
SPEAKER_03 (23:33):
Yes.
I don't know if I don't I don'tthat didn't hit her, I don't
think.
Um because she was there and Iremember um a dear friend of
mine was there, thank God.
Um and was standing between usand said, um and I was just I I
I I when I came to my senses, hewas standing between us and I
was saying a lot ofinappropriate things to her.
(23:56):
A lot of really, really mean,hurtful things.
Um but I was I was justtraumatized as hurt.
And so he just I remember himgrabbing me and saying, We have
to go.
And so we left and got um afriend who lived across the
street, took us in a took us inhis car and went to Waffle
House.
And I remember I I I remembergetting and the the song was
(24:18):
playing, the worship song wasplaying when we were going over
there.
And it's the um oh man, I thinkit's the Crowder song that he
come where he talks about um umhim came down and he gave this
beautiful sloppy wet kiss thing.
SPEAKER_00 (24:31):
What was the song How He Loves?
Yeah, How He Loves, yeah.
SPEAKER_03 (24:35):
And so that song is playing, and I was just a wreck.
I was just undone.
I remember they're all sittingin the car because they don't
know what to do either.
Uh these are three of my friendsthat are in this car with me.
And I remember getting out ofthe parking lot, I just laid in
the parking lot and was justsobbing.
Um which happened to me a lot inthe next few months.
(24:56):
Um but I think it was it was oneof those things it's just like,
okay, this is a bad this is abad nightmare, and it's gonna so
that was the trauma of when ithappened.
I was like, okay, I can get pastthis.
Yeah.
And so I can we can figure thisout.
And so for the next few months,I did everything I could to try
to make it work.
SPEAKER_04 (25:17):
Try to fix it.
SPEAKER_03 (25:18):
Uh yeah.
I was um I wanted to know formyself that I had done
absolutely everything I could inmy willpower to make this work
for us and for Callie and Cody,and it had been 14 years of
marriage.
Uh so was a lot of life.
Um and so I tried.
(25:39):
I was I was fasting, I wasreading God's word, I was uh
going through a book.
I was going to be aware of it.
SPEAKER_00 (25:45):
Yeah, there was a popular couples book out at that
point that you had tried to dowith her and she would not.
SPEAKER_03 (25:50):
Yeah, and I wound up doing it myself.
It's called Fireproof.
SPEAKER_00 (25:53):
Or like the love dare, like fireproof your
marriage or something like that.
SPEAKER_03 (25:58):
It was horrible for me at the time.
It was probably a horribledecision.
But I remember every day I wouldgo to Eagle Ranch and I would
sit in the chapel on the secondrow on the right hand side and I
would just pray and cry and prayand cry.
And I did that for a long, longtime.
SPEAKER_00 (26:13):
Well, what's sweet about that spot?
That's where we got married.
SPEAKER_03 (26:15):
It is the spot where we got married.
It's kind of cool.
Um and so I um I remember oneday I just went and God said,
Okay, it's okay.
It's okay to let go.
Um because I felt like in thattime period I had just been
beating my head against theconcrete floor trying to make
someone change that didn'treally want to change.
(26:36):
And I don't know why.
I don't I don't know if you'renot.
SPEAKER_00 (26:39):
You do know why, because you didn't want your
kids to No, I don't know why shedidn't want to change.
SPEAKER_03 (26:44):
Oh, I didn't know the circumstances behind that
either.
SPEAKER_00 (26:46):
Yeah, no.
Um I don't feel like you evergot those answers, though.
SPEAKER_03 (26:51):
No, but I was fighting for the family and for
the kids.
And I'm not saying she wasn't.
She may have been in her way.
I don't know if she was juststill encapsulated in this
affair because it wasn't like aone-night thing.
It was an ongoing thing for along time.
Um so I get there was emotionsand feelings there, but I was
not the guy that's like, hey,I'm gonna I'm not gonna hang out
(27:14):
at the house and just sit herewhile you mourn losing this guy
and then decide you want to staywith me.
I can't I can't do that.
SPEAKER_00 (27:22):
After you after she knew that he wasn't an option to
move forward with the TrevorBurrus, Jr.
SPEAKER_03 (27:26):
Well, it wasn't that wasn't that I think and that
it's it's weird.
I think that's God's timingalmost because I had been
fighting and fighting, fighting,and then I realized um when God
said, Okay, we're done, I wentand I said, All right, I'm done.
Let let's get a divorce, let'sfigure this out.
I'm gonna be as nice as I can,I'll be as cordial as I can, I'm
gonna do what I can to make thisright by you.
(27:46):
Uh you're a good mom.
We're just not good marriedtogether.
SPEAKER_04 (27:49):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_03 (27:50):
And so let's figure this out.
And so um from that I and thenafter that, when that happened,
it realized he wasn't gonna bean option anymore.
And and then it switched from,okay, I want to work this out
now.
Um and I was like, I'm I'm pastthat.
Like I can't go back.
Like I can't get back to theback.
(28:11):
Yeah.
And so that was the I mean, justman, there was so much anger and
frustration and hurt around allthat that I just Yeah.
I and it wasn't all her.
It was just a lot of other justangry too.
SPEAKER_00 (28:29):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_03 (28:29):
I just worked really, really hard to try to
get something.
And it's like, dude, I did allthe right things.
SPEAKER_04 (28:34):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_03 (28:34):
I didn't want to be around church.
I didn't want to be aroundanything.
I tried to go to church, I triedto do those things, but the
church is really weird towardpeople in divorce.
Um, I was made to feel like Iwas a bad guy because I didn't
work it out.
I didn't I wouldn't do whateverit took to work it out, which
people don't know what happened,and they just made assumptions.
Um and so people still makeassumptions about me and how
(28:57):
that went and what it did.
And and for me, I'm like, I'mnot angry at her.
I'm not frustrated at her.
SPEAKER_00 (29:02):
I'm not I think the church just doesn't know what to
do with that now because it'smore common uh now for someone
to be divorced or in a secondmarriage or whatever the case
may be.
Um and the church just doesn'tknow what to do with that
because it's like, but did yousit down and talk about with
so-and-so about how they got tothere?
(29:23):
Like, did they ask for that ordid it just happen?
Like there's so many differentcircumstances now.
SPEAKER_03 (29:29):
There's always more to the story.
So it's like ask some questions,get to the s get to the bottom
of it.
SPEAKER_04 (29:34):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_03 (29:34):
Um, and figure those things out.
Was I I mean, I when when ithappened, I was I was a wreck.
Like I was just a I was a wreck,emotional wreck.
unknown (29:44):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_03 (29:44):
Um there were times where I literally would just
drink myself to sleep and Iwould um because some of the
stuff had happened in our house,I'd found that out because it
was like I found some secretemails and said, Oh, dig, dig,
dig, dig, dig.
Well, just tell me, man, youdon't want to dig.
You're in those situations,don't dig.
You don't need to know thedetails because that's more
stuff you gotta unpack.
SPEAKER_00 (30:04):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_03 (30:05):
It's not fun to unpack.
But I didn't want to go in myhouse.
SPEAKER_00 (30:08):
Furniture.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_03 (30:10):
Well, I would just I mean, I even for me, like, I
didn't want to be in the housebecause the house represented so
much more than just uh man, Iwas just I would literally lay
on my front step.
Sometimes I'd prop up againstthe door and I would sleep
outside.
I slept in the garage a fewtimes, I slip on the front
porch.
SPEAKER_00 (30:29):
Because that home that you lived in was where you
were, you know, it's a home webuilt together.
SPEAKER_03 (30:35):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (30:35):
And that wasn't your first home, but that was what I
was about to say.
You built that home together.
There was so much intentionalityin every square foot.
And that's just where youthought that you were living
life together.
SPEAKER_03 (30:48):
Yeah, and it took me a while before I could go back
in there.
But I realized pretty early on,I don't know how or why, but I
realized I gotta let go of thisstuff and I gotta figure out how
to move on.
Like I can't carry this with me.
Yeah um this this pain, thishurt, this guilt is going to
literally eat me alive.
(31:10):
Like I'm gonna make stupiddecisions.
And I was making stupiddecisions at that time.
And I because we had our I hadmy kids for seven days and they
were with her for seven days.
The seven days they weren't withme, I just I was an idiot.
I was I had no self-esteem.
I had no self-worth.
I felt horrible.
So um did I make greatdecisions?
No.
Do I feel bad for a lot ofthose?
(31:30):
Some, yes, I feel horrible forsome of those.
But some of them I'm like, I wasjust trying to figure out what
to do.
I was just trying to figure outlife.
SPEAKER_00 (31:37):
And I think How did you figure out that there is
life after an affair is how youknow you could phrase it.
But how did you figure out thereis life after that trauma?
SPEAKER_03 (31:51):
Initially I thought, man, no one's gonna want me.
I'm I'm in my 30s.
I got two kids.
Um I don't have anything goingfor me right now.
Like who in the world's gonna belike, oh yeah, sign me up for
that?
Uh I want to go out with thatguy.
Uh yeah, because even on oursecond date, uh apparently I had
really, really big trust issues,which I know I did.
SPEAKER_00 (32:12):
Yeah, what's the situation?
SPEAKER_03 (32:14):
Huge trust issues with trusting anyone.
So it was a um it was a journeyfor me to let go.
But I know the first step inthat journey was forgiving her
and forgiving him and justsaying, Hey, we all I I I say
this in a way that I I don'tcondone any any any stupid
(32:37):
behavior.
But we're probably all maybe oneto two really bad decisions away
from just trashing our life.
SPEAKER_00 (32:44):
Oh, yeah.
And so it's like if if you'renot humble enough to kind to
admit that, yeah.
You know, we are human.
We yeah.
And so that is the truth.
SPEAKER_03 (32:55):
There's and and to this day, I mean, she's a she's
remarried.
I hope she's doing great.
Um great mom to the kids.
Um and so it's like we've movedon from that.
It's been fifteen years ago thatthat happened.
SPEAKER_00 (33:09):
Aaron Ross Powell 15 or 16.
We were talking about thatearlier.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_03 (33:11):
So it's been a it's been a long time.
SPEAKER_00 (33:13):
So you really did, you came to kind of a crossroads
of are you gonna keep trying to,you know, rebuild or or find
that trust in you?
Because you one of your friendskind of presented you with a
okay, here you are.
Are you going to find your ownway and put yourself back
(33:33):
together for yourself and Callieand Cody?
Or are you gonna keep trying toto put it, put your marriage
back together?
Because let's just say, youknow, if she said, I have to
stop by the grocery store on theway home, or I have some errands
to run, are you gonna be a trusther if that's what she says?
So you had to you had to figureout the Yeah, it really came to
(33:55):
that point.
SPEAKER_03 (33:56):
And then it was that was the hard part.
Like, but once you made likeonce I made that decision,
because he did ask me thatquestion, and I remember I
remember we're st I rememberwhere we're at when he asked me
that.
And it really kind of was like,yeah, I don't know.
I think I think marriages can beI'm not saying once there's been
an an affair, an adultery, orwhatever it may be, whatever you
(34:18):
want to call it.
I don't I don't know the correctword.
SPEAKER_04 (34:20):
Right.
SPEAKER_03 (34:21):
Once that's happened, can you rebuild and
have a healthy marriage?
I'm I'm sure some people do.
You just gotta I mean you almostgotta wipe the stake slate clean
and like this is a brand newstart, and you gotta be able to
let go and not hold baggage.
SPEAKER_04 (34:35):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_03 (34:36):
Like you literally gotta burn the bags and be like,
this is a brand new marriage.
Um and I I I I was at a placewhere I couldn't do that.
unknown (34:44):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_03 (34:44):
I was like, we broke something that I just literally
can't put back together.
SPEAKER_04 (34:49):
Right.
SPEAKER_03 (34:49):
Um, and I don't know if I'm at a spot where I wanna
try to build something new inthis.
Like, and so that was that wasthe decision that kind of led
for me.
And then I realized prettyquick, I was I I mean, I was
sitting at a bar with a a friendof mine, Dustin.
And Dustin and I were justsitting there having a beer, and
(35:11):
these girls come up to talk tous, and it was just like the
weirdest thing is this epiphanygoing, I could hear this in my
head going, what the hell areyou doing?
SPEAKER_04 (35:19):
What are you doing?
SPEAKER_03 (35:19):
Like, why are we here?
Um and I remember just tellinghim, I was like, hey bro, I
gotta go.
Like I'm done.
Um he's like, All right, I'll gowith you.
We don't know where we're going.
And so I was like, let's just gohome.
So uh I remember getting up, andthat was the last time I went
into a bar um for a long, longtime.
Uh because I was just like, Igotta I gotta make some changes.
I can't do this.
SPEAKER_00 (35:40):
Well, you once you had decided that you were moving
on and you came to grips withyour new reality, you knew that
that's where you would not meetany woman that you might want to
share your life with.
SPEAKER_03 (35:51):
Well, yeah, because I'm like, who's gonna be like if
I meet someone, they gotta beokay and they gotta be good with
Callie and Cody.
SPEAKER_05 (35:58):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_03 (35:59):
And so raising my kids with me, and that's a huge
thing for me.
So yeah, it was a I mean, thatwas a lot.
It started me down a road of umbut the forgiveness part was it
was like a weight of lifting,just carrying around a backpack
full of rocks forever.
And just being able to take thatand set it down and go like, I
(36:19):
don't I don't harbor hardfeelings against you.
I'm not mad at you.
I'm just I gotta let I gotta laythis down and I gotta let you
go.
SPEAKER_00 (36:26):
Um so usually in our podcast we have an unpack
session, and I mean that's notreally the case this time
necessarily, because when Ishared my forgiveness journey,
there wasn't really an unpack.
Um so I know for you that as youwere moving forward and you
decided that you were gonna takethe next step towards, you know,
(36:47):
whatever God might have for youif if you met someone new or
whatever.
But that the first big step foryou was to rebuild that trust.
It that was kind of hard foryou.
Yeah, it was not kinda.
It was difficult for you.
SPEAKER_03 (37:01):
Yeah, it took me a while.
SPEAKER_00 (37:02):
It did.
SPEAKER_03 (37:03):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (37:03):
And we stay a while.
We only knew each other foreight months when we got
married, but okay.
SPEAKER_03 (37:07):
It feels like a while to me.
Because things I always think mylife moves in slow motion.
And you're and my kids are likeeven Cody said the other day, he
goes, Do you ever just sit downand just chill?
Because I yeah, on Saturdayswhen football's home, but that's
about it.
SPEAKER_00 (37:21):
No, you don't even sit down on Saturdays.
SPEAKER_03 (37:22):
Yeah, I don't usually I'm sitting down.
Usually the hooping andhollering and it's not.
SPEAKER_00 (37:26):
Yeah, it's usually Sunday afternoons is really the
only time like we get home fromchurch, we both put on pajamas
and we don't move off the couchthe rest of the day.
Sunday is really the only day wedon't move.
unknown (37:38):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (37:38):
Unless we have plans or we're gonna go on an
adventure with family orwhatever.
But um that was the buildingtrust was hard.
But then also as you're movingforward with building trust, not
even just before you met me, youhad to learn to trust again.
Um, but you had to build backyour self-esteem, you had to
build back your self-worth.
(38:00):
And while you were still, youknow, working on those things,
is that took a while.
Um, and then we met.
And then we had to worktogether, we had to work really
hard for you to know that youcan trust me.
SPEAKER_03 (38:12):
Yeah.
And I I even still now sometimesI deal with the self-worth issue
and self-uh self-esteem stuff.
I mean, I think that's a it's anormal thing, but as a dude,
that's just that's really,really hard.
SPEAKER_04 (38:24):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_03 (38:25):
Um and how you deal with it.
People deal with loss anddivorce and stuff in different
ways.
And mine may not have been thehealthiest way.
I mean, I had I was literallywhen it I it happened, I had I
guarantee you, eight guys showup at my house and said, the
same thing's happened to me.
What do I do?
And I was like, bro, I was drunkright here on this front door
(38:46):
last night.
I I don't know what the hell totell you.
I'm trying to keep my feet underme right now.
Like, I don't know.
I don't I don't know what to do.
Like he's like, well, I don'tknow what to do either.
Well, go figure it out.
That's what I'm doing.
SPEAKER_00 (38:58):
We don't know what to do together.
I feel like um I know that Isaid in the beginning I was
gonna rely on you to help me askmy question.
SPEAKER_02 (39:05):
I know y'all have been doing a great job though.
I feel like I did okay.
You did great.
Well, I do have a question.
Okay.
If we still have time.
SPEAKER_00 (39:11):
Yes.
SPEAKER_02 (39:12):
Um talking about forgiveness, what led you to
forgive?
And on multiple sides, one beingyour father, your ex-wife.
But also one very common thing,and because I know I've
experienced it in in my divorceand things I went through, but
also in other people's divorceas well, is so many times there
(39:33):
is a such a um uh uh overlyharsh self-analyzation.
unknown (39:41):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (39:41):
And we have a hard time.
One, we overthink things of whatwe did, every action we did.
Even if you didn't even doanything wrong, it still feels
like you did.
SPEAKER_05 (39:51):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (39:52):
So how did you not only learn or what led you to uh
start that process of forgivingothers, but then also yourself
to be able to do that?
SPEAKER_00 (40:01):
Before you answer, I will say he still overly
self-analyzes himself till thisday.
I mean, it's been a long timesince all of that happened to
him, and we've been married foralmost 13 years.
You still overanalyze yourself.
(40:23):
And I feel like I I just just Iwill speak from experience.
I feel like you have a a lot ofof freedom to be who you are in
our marriage.
I've never asked you to beanything more than just who you
are, you just show up and I loveyou because of that, but you
still you really overanalyzeyourself.
SPEAKER_03 (40:45):
I have unrealistic expectations for myself.
Yes, you do.
Um, I expect way more out ofmyself.
Um dude, I'm I'm I mean, if youif you pick, there's a handful
of people you could call rightnow and they would say every
single bit of that.
Um my divorce was my fault.
Um and it took me a while todeal with that.
(41:07):
It took me a while to deal withlosing uh uh some of my best
friends.
SPEAKER_00 (41:12):
Because friends will pick a side every time.
SPEAKER_03 (41:14):
They always pick a side.
And that's I mean, as crazy asit sounds, that's probably one
of the harder things too,because you just feel alone.
Um it just feels out there.
I think the thing that pushed meto have to forgive was with my
dad, it was my anger and my thatwas an anger that was just
growing in me that just made meI was just an anger I was I I
(41:38):
didn't mind fighting.
I didn't mind if you mouth offto me, I was like, okay, let's
go.
SPEAKER_00 (41:44):
But then you realized I was a reflection of
him, and that's what you did notwant to be.
SPEAKER_03 (41:48):
Right.
I was like, I am the guy that Inever wanted to be.
I am a mirror image of that.
And so I was like, I have tostop that.
And the only way to stop thatwas to let go of that pain and
that hurt.
And so that was the step for himfor forgiveness.
The it's honestly though, um,with my ex-wife, it was I'm
(42:08):
gonna have to talk to her forthe next 15 years because of our
kids.
So I have to figure out how tolet go of this so I'm not hating
and angry at her every time Ipick up the kids or drop the
kids off.
SPEAKER_00 (42:20):
Well, then when we have grandchildren from Callie
and Cody, we're still gonna bethere.
But what about for for folks whodid not have children with their
exes and you still have to dealwith all those same feelings?
Like how what would you suggest?
SPEAKER_03 (42:43):
Anger and and frustration is like um it's like
drinking poison and andexpecting the worst for the
other person.
It's like you you you'recreating the damage for
yourself.
Forgiveness isn't for them,forgiveness is for you.
For yourself, yeah.
(43:03):
It's it's totally for you tomove on.
Like, um, because that willaffect every relationship you
have from uh moving forward.
Um you gotta let go of that.
You can't you know the I've I'veheard the old ad those saying so
many times, um you can't youcan't grab the future if you're
holding on to the past.
SPEAKER_00 (43:24):
That's so true.
SPEAKER_03 (43:24):
And so it's like you just gotta sometimes open your
hands up and let go.
SPEAKER_00 (43:28):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_03 (43:28):
And so it's not an easy thing.
By no means it's a process.
It's a it's not a one-time, I'mdone, I'm good process.
SPEAKER_00 (43:38):
And forgiveness, no matter how you arrive to the
point where you have the choicewhether to give it or not or to
let go of it or not, it's hard.
But no matter how you get tothat point, whether it be
through my experience or yourexperience or any other
experience that any of ourlisteners might have been
through, forgiveness equalsfreedom.
SPEAKER_03 (44:00):
Yeah, it's definitely freedom.
It really does.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (44:03):
It's freedom.
SPEAKER_03 (44:04):
Yeah.
So my unpack, and I know we'reover our time.
If I'm telling you to unpack,I'm saying, man, start the steps
toward forgiveness.
And and and you're right,there's so much freedom on the
other side of that.
Um because it really is likeyou're carrying around a weight
on you.
SPEAKER_04 (44:22):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_03 (44:23):
Um, you're carrying around this thing.
Um your personality is going todetermine on how fast that
happens for you and what thatlooks like, and it's always
different.
Um, I am hypercritical of myselfbecause I always producer
Michael and I read a booktogether, and I asked him the
other day, we're having coffee,and I was like, You ever thought
like I got another gear?
(44:44):
Like, I have another gear.
I can go faster.
And he's just like, mmm, okay.
And I was like, like for me,it's it's one of those things
like I always want to pushmyself to see what I could do.
Like, yeah, I ran a halfmarathon without training.
I was like, yeah, I can do that.
So I ran a half marathon.
Then I was like, oh, I can runanother one.
And so then it just led to this.
The whole idea for me, though,like I do things differently in
(45:07):
my life.
I get that.
Um but for anyone out there, ifyou've been in this situation,
you're probably more in thesituation I've been in than you
were with Jess Trevor.
SPEAKER_00 (45:17):
Likely.
Hopefully.
SPEAKER_03 (45:18):
They're both they're both.
Not hopefully.
SPEAKER_00 (45:20):
Ugh, that's weird to say.
SPEAKER_03 (45:22):
I know what you mean.
SPEAKER_00 (45:23):
Okay.
SPEAKER_03 (45:23):
I think I know what you mean.
I hope the listeners don't know.
I know what you mean.
Okay.
But divorce is so prevalent andso It is.
Um there's so many blendedfamilies out there.
I can tell you this if you don'tforgive your ex and you don't
move past that, you're bringingall that really toxic, really
bad baggage into the marriagethat you have now with the
(45:44):
present kids, with the wife.
SPEAKER_00 (45:45):
And that's gonna make it even harder.
SPEAKER_03 (45:47):
Oh, yeah.
It makes it way harder.
You just dumped a bunch oftoxicity.
SPEAKER_02 (45:51):
If we if we held on to all the baggage we've ever
accumulated over our life.
SPEAKER_00 (45:56):
Right.
SPEAKER_02 (45:57):
Like I wouldn't be able to get anywhere.
Like it would be sooverwhelming.
SPEAKER_00 (46:00):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (46:01):
Because I would agree.
And I mean, it's not like not toturn forgiveness into a
self-focused thing, but youbecome so much healthier when
you forgive.
SPEAKER_00 (46:10):
You do, a hundred percent.
SPEAKER_02 (46:12):
You know, and I I think that yeah, if you do take
a self uh uh absorbed approachto forgiveness, you might not
fully re- get to that forgivingpart.
But if you can truly forgivesomeone else, understanding that
we're all human, we all haveflaws, it doesn't excuse what
they did, but still be able tohave forgiveness.
SPEAKER_00 (46:33):
Forgiveness doesn't equal your excuse for your
actions.
Forgiveness is I'm gonna let goof it because I know that you're
human.
I'm also human.
I've got to let go of it.
I can't carry that anymore.
I can't carry it.
SPEAKER_03 (46:48):
Yeah.
It's letting go of a lot ofthings.
It is.
So um well, all right.
SPEAKER_00 (46:53):
Well, we're we did it, and I asked you questions
this time.
SPEAKER_03 (46:57):
Good job.
We went a little longer than wewanted to.
Thanks.
So I just I just want to saythanks everybody so much for uh
listening for your support.
Uh we are truly working ontrying to make baggage clean
better.
We've been work I've beenworking on the website at night
when I'm not working.
SPEAKER_00 (47:16):
It is true.
We do a lot of things, but hedoes carry a lot of the weight
of the behind-the-scenes things.
SPEAKER_03 (47:23):
We're trying to get some baggage claim merch out
there so you can wear like hatsor t-shirts or sweatshirts.
We'll wear them.
If you want to wear one and youwant to buy one, awesome.
Uh if you don't, I don't blameyou.
It's okay.
Uh but at the same time, it'slike we're working on trying to
get these things out there.
Yeah.
Um, it just takes time becausewe both have full-time jobs and
uh this is something we're doingfor fun.
(47:44):
Uh just help us spread the word.
Please like, subscribe, um, passthis around, share it with other
friends, family.
SPEAKER_00 (47:51):
We genuinely appreciate you joining us.
SPEAKER_03 (47:53):
Yes, thank you so much.
I mean, just I told Jess theother day, I was like, someone
listened to your forgivenessstory that was in Salem, Oregon.
Someone listened to yourforgiveness story that was in
Pennsylvania.
Uh and I was like, how cool isthat that your story gets to
share?
And so thank you guys forallowing us to share our lives
and our stories.
SPEAKER_04 (48:12):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_03 (48:12):
Uh we want to be respectful, we want to be honest
and and authentic uh with who weare.
And so thanks for listening.
SPEAKER_04 (48:20):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_03 (48:21):
Um, enjoy and um have a great evening too.
Hey guys, what's up?
I'm Greg.
I hope you guys are ready tounpack and get into some good
conversations today.
SPEAKER_01 (00:07):
And I'm Jess, and this is our podcast, Baggage
Claim.
Thank you for joining us.
SPEAKER_03 (00:17):
What's up, everybody?
Welcome to Baggage Claim.
If this is your first time here,welcome.
Thank you for joining us.
It is one of those nights, sobear with us.
Baggage Claim is just a greatnight, Greg.
It is a great night.
SPEAKER_00 (00:30):
I'm never not gonna laugh when we clap.
SPEAKER_03 (00:33):
When we clap to start, Jess laughs every time
we're 30 plus episodes in, andshe still does it.
Yeah.
So Baggage Claim is just a placewhere we talk about community
and we talk about uhrelationships and marriage and
all those fun things.
So are we we just I turned itoff.
SPEAKER_00 (00:55):
The air conditioner.
There we go.
SPEAKER_03 (00:57):
We're living in a wind tunnel right now.
That's okay.
We're just figuring it out as wego.
Trevor Burrus, Jr.
SPEAKER_00 (01:00):
We're at our house and we're in a what we used to
refer to as kind of like amother-in-law suite that we
converted into our podcaststudio.
Well in this area, there's likea hotel um air conditioner
heater unit in the wall.
And it's loud.
SPEAKER_03 (01:19):
And it's so nice when it's on.
SPEAKER_00 (01:20):
Oh, it is great.
SPEAKER_03 (01:21):
Yeah.
And we don't have enough moneyto buy the nice microphones yet
to bleed that out.
So if somebody wants to send usa donation of$600, we'll buy
some.
SPEAKER_00 (01:30):
But it's going to be okay because the ceiling fan is
on too.
SPEAKER_02 (01:33):
We need some air circulation.
SPEAKER_00 (01:36):
Welcome to our home podcast family.
SPEAKER_03 (01:40):
Grab your drink, pull up to the table of this
chaos with us and jump into somefun conversations as we just
dive into relationships.
We've been talking aboutforgiveness.
Uh Jess did two episodes on uhher story of forgiveness.
If you haven't caught those,make sure you listen to part one
and part two.
(02:01):
Uh part two is just as good asone.
It's it's really, really cool.
SPEAKER_00 (02:04):
I was just about to say not all conversations we
have are fun.
No.
SPEAKER_03 (02:08):
No.
Those those were, I'm justsaying those were good.
Last the last week, the one thatjust released uh on Tuesday um
is about just havingconversations.
It was all around the the ideaof all the controversy with uh
Charlie Kirk and everything thathappened with that.
So if you haven't listened tothat, check it out.
It's it's you know just uschatting about those things.
(02:29):
So um but anyway, tonight uhbefore we jump into a topic,
we're just gonna do fun fun kindof a question.
SPEAKER_00 (02:39):
Oh y'all did so good.
SPEAKER_03 (02:41):
Thank you.
SPEAKER_00 (02:41):
I didn't sing.
I have a cough still.
SPEAKER_03 (02:43):
You practiced it earlier.
SPEAKER_00 (02:44):
I got to do that.
SPEAKER_03 (02:45):
Jess has been smoking like a pack of
marlborous a day, apparently.
Stop.
SPEAKER_00 (02:48):
So she's No, I'm sick again.
Yeah Um I've got my cough dropsready, had my water, there's a
lot going on.
So if I cough, I'm really sorry.
But that's why I didn't join onthe question time trio.
SPEAKER_03 (03:01):
All right.
So, my do you want to go firstfor your question, or do you
want me to go first?
Favorite pasta.
SPEAKER_02 (03:07):
We talking like pituccini, spaghetti, a lasagna.
Like what is it?
SPEAKER_00 (03:14):
This is actually a point of contention in our
family.
SPEAKER_02 (03:16):
Really?
I had no idea.
Let's talk.
Let's open this up, let's openour baggage.
SPEAKER_00 (03:20):
Okay.
Open the baggage.
Even when the kids were little,me and all four of our kids, we
like what we have always calledfun pasta, like bow ties or
rigotoni.
SPEAKER_03 (03:33):
They just go in there and they just go freewheel
with the pasta.
They just grab any pasta.
SPEAKER_00 (03:38):
You can't just grab any pasta.
SPEAKER_03 (03:39):
It's the shape of any pasta and they throw it in
spaghetti.
SPEAKER_00 (03:43):
We do.
It's just the shapes, the funquote unquote.
Fun pasta makes head.
I know.
But it's always made us happy.
And even now with all thegrown-up kids, even our
daughter-in-law included, nowshe wants fun pasta.
SPEAKER_02 (04:02):
I mean, that's like using spaghetti noodles for mac
and cheese.
unknown (04:05):
Yes.
SPEAKER_00 (04:06):
If you want to do that, do that if that makes you
happy.
Greg, I know your answer.
Go ahead and share.
SPEAKER_03 (04:12):
Yeah.
Spaghetti noodles are forspaghetti.
Fettuccini noodles are forfettuccine.
SPEAKER_04 (04:18):
I know.
SPEAKER_03 (04:18):
Like noodles have a place, they have a purpose.
SPEAKER_04 (04:21):
They don't.
SPEAKER_03 (04:22):
And you use them.
It took me a while to where Icould get over that.
Like it just bothered me for awhile.
SPEAKER_00 (04:26):
Even now, literally, even now, up until last week, I
try to, because spaghetti ispretty much a staple in our
house weekly.
And I try to alternate.
I try to alternate.
One week we have like normal,boring noodles.
And then like the next one.
Spaghetti noodles.
SPEAKER_02 (04:45):
You mean the one that's supposed to come with.
SPEAKER_00 (04:46):
And then the next time we'll have super fun
noodles.
And so I try to alternate.
So everybody's.
SPEAKER_03 (04:56):
I was about to ask.
I was literally just about tofollow up with angel noodles.
SPEAKER_00 (04:58):
That's a whole thing, too.
He wants a big fat spaghettinoodle.
SPEAKER_03 (05:02):
He needs the noodle substance.
No, you mean angel hair pasta.
No, I don't want that.
No.
Like if you want to eat that,just go put butter in it, put it
in a bowl, and eat it byyourself.
SPEAKER_00 (05:17):
That's weird.
SPEAKER_02 (05:18):
Right?
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (05:19):
But I don't feel like the pasta's weird.
But I get to also I get to use.
I get to use our granddaughter,our one-year-old granddaughter
as an excuse.
Now I'm like, Lucy can't pick upspaghetti noodles, so we have to
have bow ties.
Or we have to have penne pastaso she can pick it up.
So I'm gonna I'm gonna brainbeing on my team.
SPEAKER_03 (05:41):
Because you don't get a good pasta to meat to
noodle ratio when you usenoodles that aren't designed for
the same.
SPEAKER_00 (05:49):
Well, when we use the fun noodles, I put extra
sauce.
There's a plan.
I have a plan.
SPEAKER_03 (05:55):
So my question, simple question.
SPEAKER_00 (05:58):
You apparently are on Greg's team with pasta.
SPEAKER_03 (06:01):
Yes.
SPEAKER_00 (06:01):
Oh my god, it's such a surprise.
Okay.
SPEAKER_03 (06:04):
When you put your blinker on.
I'll be on your team someday.
SPEAKER_00 (06:06):
Never.
SPEAKER_03 (06:07):
When you put your blinker on, are you asking
permission or making astatement?
Ooh.
That's a great question.
I think it's all contextual.
SPEAKER_00 (06:16):
Like where are you at?
Circumstances.
I'm on the road.
SPEAKER_03 (06:19):
I'm on the road and I'll put my blinker on.
SPEAKER_00 (06:21):
No, like if I'm on a two-lane road and I'm about to
turn right to turn into myschool, I'm letting you know
that's what I'm about to turn.
Yeah.
I'm making a statement.
I'm about to turn right.
So let's do this all as friends.
SPEAKER_03 (06:34):
But if we're merging people who turn their blinker on
and they just come over.
Yeah.
Like no matter what.
SPEAKER_02 (06:42):
So like if there's a car, like what would be the
blind spot, right?
Right.
And I need to get over, I'mgoing to turn my blinker on and
they're going to do one of twothings, depending on how they
drive.
They're going to speed up andget past me so that I can get
over, or they're going to slowdown and let me over.
I kind of always have thought ofblinkers as how I communicate
when I'm in a grocery store witha buggy.
(07:03):
You know, like if you're goingto walk down an aisle and be
like, oh, excuse me, or likethat way you're not like running
into people.
SPEAKER_03 (07:09):
You're just letting people know what you're doing
where you're But how about theperson in the aisle who
literally leaves their buggy inthe middle of the aisle and they
just go start walking.
I shopping looking for thecolour.
If they're like that feels likethe aisle, I'll just move the
cart.
SPEAKER_00 (07:25):
I have moved carts also.
SPEAKER_02 (07:27):
But if they're like right there, I'll just be like,
oh, excuse me, squeeze by youhere.
You know you always gotta havelike that's just thing you say.
SPEAKER_00 (07:34):
The merge it can be either or.
It's according to what kind ofperson is not.
SPEAKER_03 (07:40):
It really depends on the kind of person you are.
SPEAKER_02 (07:42):
I think it is.
But I think it's contextual.
Like if if someone's in yourspace, I feel like respectfully
it should be a hey, can I getover?
But if you're in their space,it's just, hey, I'm letting you
know.
SPEAKER_00 (07:55):
No.
SPEAKER_02 (07:56):
But I have another follow-up question since we're
talking about merging.
Zipper merge or no zipper merge?
Okay, let's discuss that nextweek.
Because we're gonna get into ourbody.
SPEAKER_03 (08:06):
Yeah, we're gonna get into it.
Okay.
All right, let's dig in.
SPEAKER_00 (08:13):
So it was my turn first to share my forgiveness
journey.
SPEAKER_03 (08:16):
Right.
SPEAKER_00 (08:17):
And you've also been on your own forgiveness journey,
although it looks different.
You have you f you you beforeyou and I got together, you had
your own journey.
Yes.
SPEAKER_03 (08:27):
And so while we're while you're sharing and
everyone out there who'slistening, if you listen to
Jess's story, you're I mean, I'msure there were tears, and I'm
sure you were like, oh my gosh,that's a wow.
Like and then because thishappens every time we're
somewhere.
Trevor Burrus, Jr.
SPEAKER_00 (08:43):
Babe, you always say this.
SPEAKER_03 (08:44):
This is Well, because it's so true.
And then when I share my story,they're like, uh What'd you do?
What'd you do?
Like, what'd you do to trashyour marriage?
And I was like, uh, thank you.
Thank you so much.
Trevor Burrus, Jr.
SPEAKER_00 (08:55):
Well, before you start getting into that, um I
want to make sure that we saythat we have always promised to
be and we will continue topromise to be respectful.
But while we're beingrespectful, we're gonna be real.
SPEAKER_03 (09:08):
Trying to be as real and honest as I can because this
does go around the world.
And um for you folks inSingapore, if you're listening
to this.
SPEAKER_00 (09:17):
Whoever you are, can you message us?
Because I'm fascinated.
SPEAKER_03 (09:20):
I would love to visit Singapore.
SPEAKER_00 (09:22):
There's so many people around the world,
literally around the world, thatare listening to us now, and I'm
just baffled.
So if you hear this and you areone of the people who are
literally around the world.
SPEAKER_03 (09:32):
If you're not in the U.S., shoot us some shoot us a
DM.
SPEAKER_00 (09:35):
Please, I'm just fascinated.
SPEAKER_03 (09:37):
Hit the text button and just say something.
You can say something random orstupid or give us some You can
give us an emoji.
I don't care.
You could ask us questions weshould ask each other.
SPEAKER_02 (09:45):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (09:46):
If you have a phone question.
So like while you're sharingtoday, there's going to be some
things that we won't share on apublic broadcast because of our
of your ch your children.
Trevor Burrus, Jr.
SPEAKER_03 (09:59):
Yeah, there's nothing that I won't share.
Like if we're on a one-on-onesession, if we're if if you're
talking to Jess and Ione-on-one, there's nothing I
won't.
I mean, I'll share my story.
I'll share my faults, I'll sharemy bad things that I've done and
the parts of my life.
Like, I don't like I'll sharethose things.
But here I there may be somethings where I'm like, I don't I
(10:21):
don't know as far as just forrespect for Callie and Cody, our
our kids.
Um I don't want to there's somethings I just be like, yeah, I
don't want to I don't want totalk about that.
SPEAKER_00 (10:30):
Well, because they still they have obviously still
very much have a relationshipwith their mother, and we're not
gonna tarnish that.
No.
And we've never tried to do thatat all.
SPEAKER_03 (10:39):
No, not at all.
I've always tried to respectthat.
Right.
So there's gonna be times ofthat, but Yes.
SPEAKER_00 (10:44):
And you'll hear too if you're listening, um
typically um Greg is the kind ofthe leader of the conversations
and helps drive it because thatis not my that's not my
strength.
And so producer Michael is gonnahelp me do that this evening
because you are telling yourstory.
Um and you shouldn't have todrive the whole conversation for
(11:07):
your own story.
And so um we're all we're just abig team today.
Yay, go team.
Um so you want to give us alittle bit of background of um
maybe your experience growing upum to kind of lead you towards
adulthood?
SPEAKER_03 (11:24):
Yeah.
I'll be I'll yeah, I'll be veryquick too and brief.
I've shared some of it, but uh Igrew up.
Um my dad was an abusive dad.
He was an alcoholic, uh, drank alot, was very, very mean to my
mom and to me and my sister.
Uh very just a messed up guy.
He had a lot of issues he neverunpacked and never dealt with
(11:47):
because his I mean, just thathis life was never that.
SPEAKER_00 (11:50):
So he There was some physical and emotional.
SPEAKER_03 (11:53):
Oh, it was lots of physical and lots of emotional.
Like, yeah, I've I've been inseveral fist fights with my dad.
unknown (11:59):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_03 (11:59):
Um, several um just like I've seen things that a kid
shouldn't have to see um in ahome.
Cops didn't scare me.
Uh when the cops showed up, itwas always a good thing.
Um it wasn't a big deal when thecops showed up.
I actually liked it when theywere around because it felt a
little safer.
SPEAKER_04 (12:15):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_03 (12:16):
Um but if it wasn't for my mom through all of that,
there uh Lord knows where Iwould be.
But growing up, I was alwaysthat I'm never gonna be like
this guy, I'm never gonna belike this guy, I'm never gonna
be like this guy.
I'm never gonna have a brokenhome.
I'm gonna fight for uh a ahealthy marriage.
I'm gonna fight for like to toto be a good dad.
(12:36):
I'm gonna fight for all thesethings.
SPEAKER_00 (12:38):
And so your childhood taught you what you
did not want to do.
SPEAKER_03 (12:42):
Right.
Yeah.
Uh the problem is, is I neverreally had anybody.
Like I never really had a I hadI had guys in my life with my
family.
My stepdad was there, he wouldtake me hunting a lot, we would
do some things together.
Yeah, my uncles were there, mygrandfather was there to teach
me work ethic and just he taughtme a lot of things growing up on
the farm.
(13:02):
Um, but in the same sense, itwas like there was never just a
um rarely a guy that I just sitdown and share my thoughts or my
feelings with or just hadconversations with.
So I never really had a whole adad thing.
And I d I I mean to this day,just sad as it is, I d I d I
still don't have that.
Like I don't have a dad thing.
I don't have a I don't have aguy in my life that if I call
(13:24):
and said, hey, I'm you know, I'mwiring up the ports tonight to
put some outlets on you and comehang out and have some beers and
do that.
Like there's nobody to call forthat other than friends that
I've created and I have.
SPEAKER_00 (13:36):
Like that also taught you what kind of dad you
want to be, because you do havethat with our boys.
SPEAKER_03 (13:40):
I do.
I uh I probably went a littleoverboard from time to time.
It took me a little to like umearly on, I was very, very
diligent and not to miss a game,not to miss anything that the
kids were involved in.
And so it it almost put so muchpressure on me to always be at
every event.
Um and then I realized one timeCallie was tiny.
(14:02):
Um she was a little bitty thing,and we would read every night to
her.
And I was I went in to read withher one night, and um I was just
we were just reading a simplebook.
She loved to read.
And I was reading this book toher, and she just said, um, she
goes, Where's your dad?
Like, I've never met him.
SPEAKER_00 (14:17):
Because the story had a daddy in it.
SPEAKER_03 (14:19):
Yeah, and there was something about that.
And I was like, and I was like,Well, my dad left oh a while
back, and she goes, Why?
Like, why why would a dad likeleave his kid?
And I was like, that's a and Istarted bawling.
It was just a weird moment forme.
Like, I'm laying in the bed withour little kid, and I'm just
like emotional, and I'm like, Idon't, I don't know.
(14:42):
Yeah.
And I realized then I'd neverreally, even in my life,
unpacked that whole idea anddealt with that trauma.
So I started down that road oftrying to do that, and I
actually took Callie to meethim.
Um She was a baby.
Yeah, she was tiny to try tofigure out just to unpack the
whole idea and just be like, allright, I gotta, I gotta I can't
(15:03):
let this control my life.
SPEAKER_04 (15:04):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_03 (15:05):
Um, but my dad was so eat up with shame and guilt
that he couldn't let go of allthe things that he knew he had
done.
Um and so I mean, my dad diedalone by himself, and it was he
was three days uh in his housebefore anybody found him.
And so it was it wasn't a as ifwhen he passed away, it wasn't,
but I I went and had aconversation with him.
(15:27):
I shared my faith.
I'd become a Christian at thistime, and I shared my faith and
um how important that was to meand how that had changed me and
who I was now as a as a man andas a dad.
And I encouraged him and and soand I told him to his face that
I forgave him.
I was like, I've I'm I'm notlooking into the past, I'm gonna
look to the future.
Um and so just being able tohave that conversation with him
(15:50):
was a huge step for me to learnabout forgiveness because I
didn't harbor anger.
I just had a lot of trauma and alot of hurt that I've never
unpacked.
SPEAKER_04 (15:57):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_03 (15:57):
Um I was angry for a while.
That's what led me to, hey,let's start kickboxing, let's
learn how to fight.
And that was probably not thebest thing for me.
SPEAKER_04 (16:06):
Right.
SPEAKER_03 (16:06):
Um, but it was fun.
I loved it.
I loved I I actually likedgetting hit, which was weird.
SPEAKER_00 (16:11):
That's strange.
SPEAKER_03 (16:12):
It's like, yeah, just kick me in the head.
And uh that's kind of fun.
Um and so I realized like thisis not a healthy place for me to
go.
And so I had to get out of that.
SPEAKER_00 (16:21):
So all of that kind of as as you're living life and
you you met the girl you'regonna marry, and what you
envisioned what marriage andfamily was gonna look like,
yeah.
You knew what you did not want.
So you were working towardsbuilding what you did want and
what you did want for your ownself as a a man and his wife.
(16:43):
And then when you all had kids,you knew what you wanted that to
look like.
SPEAKER_03 (16:46):
Right.
And so we were very intentional.
Um so even for me, like uhalcohol was a big thing for me.
I went 11 years and never dranka drop.
I just said I'm gonna walk awayfrom alcohol.
I'm d I I can't control thisright now in my life, so I'm
gonna walk away from it.
SPEAKER_04 (17:03):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_03 (17:03):
So for me, it's like I think everything in moderation
is not just I don't care ifyou're a Christian.
If you can't control youreating, then figure out some
boundaries.
Like for me, I couldn't controlmy drinking, so I walked away
for 11 years.
Um now I I have a drink.
It's not, it doesn't control me.
No.
Um there's there's alcohol inour fridge, in our fun fridge,
in the laundry room.
(17:24):
Um I don't and it's not like ohI gotta drink.
SPEAKER_00 (17:27):
Stuff will be there for two weeks at a time.
SPEAKER_03 (17:28):
Yeah, it's just like it's it's just there.
And so I walked away from that.
So and I was like, okay, I don'twant and and uh I did all the
right things.
SPEAKER_00 (17:36):
Uh quote unquote right things.
SPEAKER_03 (17:37):
Yeah, the things the church tells me to do.
Yeah.
And I'm not I'm not bashing thechurch, hear me.
But as a Christian, I was tolduh get in church, get in a small
group, uh be involved inministry, do these things, all
these I was a pastor at thetime.
SPEAKER_00 (17:52):
I was gonna say, in the midst of all that, you felt
the Lord had called you intoministry, so that was your
full-time life.
SPEAKER_03 (17:58):
Yeah.
So I was teaching and preachinguh weekly, uh, as an ordained
minister at that time, and justreally our life evolved around
church.
And so it was very much we're ina small group.
I'm giving, I'm tithing, I'mleading Bible studies, like
youth Bible studies, collegeBible studies, adult Bible.
I mean, we were our own.
SPEAKER_00 (18:17):
And then she was working at the church too, a
little bit later on.
SPEAKER_03 (18:19):
Yes, she was.
She she was at the church also.
Um and things were great.
And I just think somewhere,somehow, things got off.
You know, in marriage, it's likeyou start everything slips,
everything has those areas.
It usually starts as somethingsmall.
And when we look I don't when Ilook back, because I look back
(18:41):
on it a lot and it was like,where did I where did it go
wrong?
Like where did where did I messup?
Or where did I misstep?
Or where did what did I not seecoming?
Um, I didn't see those thewarning lights on the dashboard
pop up with the marriage.
Um because when I had when Inoticed things were off, it was
way too late.
(19:01):
Yeah.
It was way too late.
So um and so that was a man,that was one of those things
even as a the church.
I think it when when I found outit was one of those, it wasn't a
I went to both the people.
I I you know, I asked.
(19:21):
I was just like, hey, what'sgoing on?
SPEAKER_00 (19:23):
Both the people meaning your wife and the other
person in turn.
SPEAKER_03 (19:26):
It was just like yeah, and just like, hey, what
this seems weird, what's goingon?
There's some things, uh, let'sfigure this out.
And so tried to walk that roadfor months and months.
Um nothing happened, nothing wascoming.
And finally, um, I just keptdigging until I got to a point
to where it just all came to ahead.
(19:47):
Like it just all happened all ofa sudden.
SPEAKER_00 (19:49):
You mentioned seeing warning signs going off, but I
think you and I talked about bythe time there were some warning
signs, if you tried to lookback, it was already too late at
that point.
SPEAKER_03 (20:03):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (20:03):
As far as her choices.
SPEAKER_03 (20:05):
Yeah, well, we talked about too.
I was like, yeah, I'm not I'mnot a perfect guy.
I'm not a perfect, I mean, I'mnot a perfect dude.
I'm never gonna say I I'm nevergonna get on here and say, Oh,
it's perfect.
Yeah, there's been times in mylife where I dealt with
pornography uh and that was anissue.
Uh it wasn't something that runmy life.
It wasn't something that wasthere, but yeah, I had had
issues with it.
(20:25):
I dealt with it.
And and so I had guys in my lifethat tried to help hold me
accountable to those things.
SPEAKER_00 (20:31):
Um there are two sides to every story.
SPEAKER_03 (20:34):
And so Well, I had people I had people literally
church friends tell me, um andthis is what baffles me about
church people, that hey, Ideserved it.
I did the same thing because Ilooked at porn.
Because you looked at porn.
Uh so I looked at porn andbecause my wife had uh
infidelity or an affair, um, itwas the same thing.
And I'm like, I don't, I'msorry, I don't know.
(20:56):
But this is not the same thing.
SPEAKER_00 (20:58):
No, it is not.
SPEAKER_03 (20:58):
Um the Bible does say sin is sin, no matter what
that looks like.
Uh but there's obviouslydifferent consequences for sin
too.
Right.
Um that's kind of the way Ilooked at it.
So it was just needless to say,that put me down a journey of
just man, I it it happened.
I I didn't realize like when itall came out, I was like just I
(21:22):
was stunned, to say the least.
Um baffled.
There was a there was a few dayswhere I don't remember uh what
happened.
I don't remember what was goingon.
I don't it was just a It's kindalike me.
SPEAKER_00 (21:34):
It was kinda you you were just going through the
motions, but you don't rememberhow you got there.
SPEAKER_03 (21:38):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (21:38):
Yeah.
I think the Because I mean, youand I both experienced a trauma.
unknown (21:43):
Yes.
SPEAKER_00 (21:44):
And I know it's very different kinds of trauma, but
you and I both were in amarriage and we thought
everything was fine and we're onthe path of, you know, we're
making the right choices andwe're raising our family, we're
having, you know, thisrelationship and you have your
life kind of planned out.
Um and both of our marriagesended very abruptly and neither
(22:05):
one of us asked for it.
And so it's kind of like you gointo this whole like trauma
response.
Like mine lasted a lot longerbecause the trauma was quite
different.
SPEAKER_03 (22:17):
But for you Well, yours wasn't your decision or
his decision.
You know, ours was feels like itwas a decision made in the
house.
SPEAKER_00 (22:25):
True.
SPEAKER_03 (22:25):
Um and I don't I don't know if I can share this.
I I really don't.
But I think I feel like it's apart.
I feel like it's a part of ourbecause when it all came out, I
remember I really, really wantedit to work.
Like even after this affair hadbeen going on, I was like, I
remember saying, and this is myside of the story, so I don't I
(22:48):
don't mean disrespect or shamefor anyone, but I remember
asking, I was like, we have twooptions here.
Like the options are simple.
You either tell him you're doneor we're done.
Like I you have to call him andtell I have to physically see
you pick up the phone and callhim and tell him you're never
gonna talk to him again.
And she said And we're done.
She said, I can't I can't makethat phone call.
(23:08):
And I remember getting up fromthe kitchen table and I I I
don't remember, I wasdistraught.
Like I was just kind of like andI go back to my bedroom and I
start packing stuff into asuitcase for some reason.
I don't know why.
SPEAKER_04 (23:19):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_03 (23:20):
Um but I remember her coming back there and she
said something.
And and again, this is me beingcompletely transparent.
I do remember throwing anightstand at her.
SPEAKER_00 (23:32):
Towards her?
SPEAKER_03 (23:33):
Yes.
I don't know if I don't I don'tthat didn't hit her, I don't
think.
Um because she was there and Iremember um a dear friend of
mine was there, thank God.
Um and was standing between usand said, um and I was just I I
I I when I came to my senses, hewas standing between us and I
was saying a lot ofinappropriate things to her.
(23:56):
A lot of really, really mean,hurtful things.
Um but I was I was justtraumatized as hurt.
And so he just I remember himgrabbing me and saying, We have
to go.
And so we left and got um afriend who lived across the
street, took us in a took us inhis car and went to Waffle
House.
And I remember I I I remembergetting and the the song was
(24:18):
playing, the worship song wasplaying when we were going over
there.
And it's the um oh man, I thinkit's the Crowder song that he
come where he talks about um umhim came down and he gave this
beautiful sloppy wet kiss thing.
SPEAKER_00 (24:31):
What was the song How He Loves?
Yeah, How He Loves, yeah.
SPEAKER_03 (24:35):
And so that song is playing, and I was just a wreck.
I was just undone.
I remember they're all sittingin the car because they don't
know what to do either.
Uh these are three of my friendsthat are in this car with me.
And I remember getting out ofthe parking lot, I just laid in
the parking lot and was justsobbing.
Um which happened to me a lot inthe next few months.
(24:56):
Um but I think it was it was oneof those things it's just like,
okay, this is a bad this is abad nightmare, and it's gonna so
that was the trauma of when ithappened.
I was like, okay, I can get pastthis.
Yeah.
And so I can we can figure thisout.
And so for the next few months,I did everything I could to try
to make it work.
SPEAKER_04 (25:17):
Try to fix it.
SPEAKER_03 (25:18):
Uh yeah.
I was um I wanted to know formyself that I had done
absolutely everything I could inmy willpower to make this work
for us and for Callie and Cody,and it had been 14 years of
marriage.
Uh so was a lot of life.
Um and so I tried.
(25:39):
I was I was fasting, I wasreading God's word, I was uh
going through a book.
I was going to be aware of it.
SPEAKER_00 (25:45):
Yeah, there was a popular couples book out at that
point that you had tried to dowith her and she would not.
SPEAKER_03 (25:50):
Yeah, and I wound up doing it myself.
It's called Fireproof.
SPEAKER_00 (25:53):
Or like the love dare, like fireproof your
marriage or something like that.
SPEAKER_03 (25:58):
It was horrible for me at the time.
It was probably a horribledecision.
But I remember every day I wouldgo to Eagle Ranch and I would
sit in the chapel on the secondrow on the right hand side and I
would just pray and cry and prayand cry.
And I did that for a long, longtime.
SPEAKER_00 (26:13):
Well, what's sweet about that spot?
That's where we got married.
SPEAKER_03 (26:15):
It is the spot where we got married.
It's kind of cool.
Um and so I um I remember oneday I just went and God said,
Okay, it's okay.
It's okay to let go.
Um because I felt like in thattime period I had just been
beating my head against theconcrete floor trying to make
someone change that didn'treally want to change.
(26:36):
And I don't know why.
I don't I don't know if you'renot.
SPEAKER_00 (26:39):
You do know why, because you didn't want your
kids to No, I don't know why shedidn't want to change.
SPEAKER_03 (26:44):
Oh, I didn't know the circumstances behind that
either.
SPEAKER_00 (26:46):
Yeah, no.
Um I don't feel like you evergot those answers, though.
SPEAKER_03 (26:51):
No, but I was fighting for the family and for
the kids.
And I'm not saying she wasn't.
She may have been in her way.
I don't know if she was juststill encapsulated in this
affair because it wasn't like aone-night thing.
It was an ongoing thing for along time.
Um so I get there was emotionsand feelings there, but I was
not the guy that's like, hey,I'm gonna I'm not gonna hang out
(27:14):
at the house and just sit herewhile you mourn losing this guy
and then decide you want to staywith me.
I can't I can't do that.
SPEAKER_00 (27:22):
After you after she knew that he wasn't an option to
move forward with the TrevorBurrus, Jr.
SPEAKER_03 (27:26):
Well, it wasn't that wasn't that I think and that
it's it's weird.
I think that's God's timingalmost because I had been
fighting and fighting, fighting,and then I realized um when God
said, Okay, we're done, I wentand I said, All right, I'm done.
Let let's get a divorce, let'sfigure this out.
I'm gonna be as nice as I can,I'll be as cordial as I can, I'm
gonna do what I can to make thisright by you.
(27:46):
Uh you're a good mom.
We're just not good marriedtogether.
SPEAKER_04 (27:49):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_03 (27:50):
And so let's figure this out.
And so um from that I and thenafter that, when that happened,
it realized he wasn't gonna bean option anymore.
And and then it switched from,okay, I want to work this out
now.
Um and I was like, I'm I'm pastthat.
Like I can't go back.
Like I can't get back to theback.
(28:11):
Yeah.
And so that was the I mean, justman, there was so much anger and
frustration and hurt around allthat that I just Yeah.
I and it wasn't all her.
It was just a lot of other justangry too.
SPEAKER_00 (28:29):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_03 (28:29):
I just worked really, really hard to try to
get something.
And it's like, dude, I did allthe right things.
SPEAKER_04 (28:34):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_03 (28:34):
I didn't want to be around church.
I didn't want to be aroundanything.
I tried to go to church, I triedto do those things, but the
church is really weird towardpeople in divorce.
Um, I was made to feel like Iwas a bad guy because I didn't
work it out.
I didn't I wouldn't do whateverit took to work it out, which
people don't know what happened,and they just made assumptions.
Um and so people still makeassumptions about me and how
(28:57):
that went and what it did.
And and for me, I'm like, I'mnot angry at her.
I'm not frustrated at her.
SPEAKER_00 (29:02):
I'm not I think the church just doesn't know what to
do with that now because it'smore common uh now for someone
to be divorced or in a secondmarriage or whatever the case
may be.
Um and the church just doesn'tknow what to do with that
because it's like, but did yousit down and talk about with
so-and-so about how they got tothere?
(29:23):
Like, did they ask for that ordid it just happen?
Like there's so many differentcircumstances now.
SPEAKER_03 (29:29):
There's always more to the story.
So it's like ask some questions,get to the s get to the bottom
of it.
SPEAKER_04 (29:34):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_03 (29:34):
Um, and figure those things out.
Was I I mean, I when when ithappened, I was I was a wreck.
Like I was just a I was a wreck,emotional wreck.
unknown (29:44):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_03 (29:44):
Um there were times where I literally would just
drink myself to sleep and Iwould um because some of the
stuff had happened in our house,I'd found that out because it
was like I found some secretemails and said, Oh, dig, dig,
dig, dig, dig.
Well, just tell me, man, youdon't want to dig.
You're in those situations,don't dig.
You don't need to know thedetails because that's more
stuff you gotta unpack.
SPEAKER_00 (30:04):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_03 (30:05):
It's not fun to unpack.
But I didn't want to go in myhouse.
SPEAKER_00 (30:08):
Furniture.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_03 (30:10):
Well, I would just I mean, I even for me, like, I
didn't want to be in the housebecause the house represented so
much more than just uh man, Iwas just I would literally lay
on my front step.
Sometimes I'd prop up againstthe door and I would sleep
outside.
I slept in the garage a fewtimes, I slip on the front
porch.
SPEAKER_00 (30:29):
Because that home that you lived in was where you
were, you know, it's a home webuilt together.
SPEAKER_03 (30:35):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (30:35):
And that wasn't your first home, but that was what I
was about to say.
You built that home together.
There was so much intentionalityin every square foot.
And that's just where youthought that you were living
life together.
SPEAKER_03 (30:48):
Yeah, and it took me a while before I could go back
in there.
But I realized pretty early on,I don't know how or why, but I
realized I gotta let go of thisstuff and I gotta figure out how
to move on.
Like I can't carry this with me.
Yeah um this this pain, thishurt, this guilt is going to
literally eat me alive.
(31:10):
Like I'm gonna make stupiddecisions.
And I was making stupiddecisions at that time.
And I because we had our I hadmy kids for seven days and they
were with her for seven days.
The seven days they weren't withme, I just I was an idiot.
I was I had no self-esteem.
I had no self-worth.
I felt horrible.
So um did I make greatdecisions?
No.
Do I feel bad for a lot ofthose?
(31:30):
Some, yes, I feel horrible forsome of those.
But some of them I'm like, I wasjust trying to figure out what
to do.
I was just trying to figure outlife.
SPEAKER_00 (31:37):
And I think How did you figure out that there is
life after an affair is how youknow you could phrase it.
But how did you figure out thereis life after that trauma?
SPEAKER_03 (31:51):
Initially I thought, man, no one's gonna want me.
I'm I'm in my 30s.
I got two kids.
Um I don't have anything goingfor me right now.
Like who in the world's gonna belike, oh yeah, sign me up for
that?
Uh I want to go out with thatguy.
Uh yeah, because even on oursecond date, uh apparently I had
really, really big trust issues,which I know I did.
SPEAKER_00 (32:12):
Yeah, what's the situation?
SPEAKER_03 (32:14):
Huge trust issues with trusting anyone.
So it was a um it was a journeyfor me to let go.
But I know the first step inthat journey was forgiving her
and forgiving him and justsaying, Hey, we all I I I say
this in a way that I I don'tcondone any any any stupid
(32:37):
behavior.
But we're probably all maybe oneto two really bad decisions away
from just trashing our life.
SPEAKER_00 (32:44):
Oh, yeah.
And so it's like if if you'renot humble enough to kind to
admit that, yeah.
You know, we are human.
We yeah.
And so that is the truth.
SPEAKER_03 (32:55):
There's and and to this day, I mean, she's a she's
remarried.
I hope she's doing great.
Um great mom to the kids.
Um and so it's like we've movedon from that.
It's been fifteen years ago thatthat happened.
SPEAKER_00 (33:09):
Aaron Ross Powell 15 or 16.
We were talking about thatearlier.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_03 (33:11):
So it's been a it's been a long time.
SPEAKER_00 (33:13):
So you really did, you came to kind of a crossroads
of are you gonna keep trying to,you know, rebuild or or find
that trust in you?
Because you one of your friendskind of presented you with a
okay, here you are.
Are you going to find your ownway and put yourself back
(33:33):
together for yourself and Callieand Cody?
Or are you gonna keep trying toto put it, put your marriage
back together?
Because let's just say, youknow, if she said, I have to
stop by the grocery store on theway home, or I have some errands
to run, are you gonna be a trusther if that's what she says?
So you had to you had to figureout the Yeah, it really came to
(33:55):
that point.
SPEAKER_03 (33:56):
And then it was that was the hard part.
Like, but once you made likeonce I made that decision,
because he did ask me thatquestion, and I remember I
remember we're st I rememberwhere we're at when he asked me
that.
And it really kind of was like,yeah, I don't know.
I think I think marriages can beI'm not saying once there's been
an an affair, an adultery, orwhatever it may be, whatever you
(34:18):
want to call it.
I don't I don't know the correctword.
SPEAKER_04 (34:20):
Right.
SPEAKER_03 (34:21):
Once that's happened, can you rebuild and
have a healthy marriage?
I'm I'm sure some people do.
You just gotta I mean you almostgotta wipe the stake slate clean
and like this is a brand newstart, and you gotta be able to
let go and not hold baggage.
SPEAKER_04 (34:35):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_03 (34:36):
Like you literally gotta burn the bags and be like,
this is a brand new marriage.
Um and I I I I was at a placewhere I couldn't do that.
unknown (34:44):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_03 (34:44):
I was like, we broke something that I just literally
can't put back together.
SPEAKER_04 (34:49):
Right.
SPEAKER_03 (34:49):
Um, and I don't know if I'm at a spot where I wanna
try to build something new inthis.
Like, and so that was that wasthe decision that kind of led
for me.
And then I realized prettyquick, I was I I mean, I was
sitting at a bar with a a friendof mine, Dustin.
And Dustin and I were justsitting there having a beer, and
(35:11):
these girls come up to talk tous, and it was just like the
weirdest thing is this epiphanygoing, I could hear this in my
head going, what the hell areyou doing?
SPEAKER_04 (35:19):
What are you doing?
SPEAKER_03 (35:19):
Like, why are we here?
Um and I remember just tellinghim, I was like, hey bro, I
gotta go.
Like I'm done.
Um he's like, All right, I'll gowith you.
We don't know where we're going.
And so I was like, let's just gohome.
So uh I remember getting up, andthat was the last time I went
into a bar um for a long, longtime.
Uh because I was just like, Igotta I gotta make some changes.
I can't do this.
SPEAKER_00 (35:40):
Well, you once you had decided that you were moving
on and you came to grips withyour new reality, you knew that
that's where you would not meetany woman that you might want to
share your life with.
SPEAKER_03 (35:51):
Well, yeah, because I'm like, who's gonna be like if
I meet someone, they gotta beokay and they gotta be good with
Callie and Cody.
SPEAKER_05 (35:58):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_03 (35:59):
And so raising my kids with me, and that's a huge
thing for me.
So yeah, it was a I mean, thatwas a lot.
It started me down a road of umbut the forgiveness part was it
was like a weight of lifting,just carrying around a backpack
full of rocks forever.
And just being able to take thatand set it down and go like, I
(36:19):
don't I don't harbor hardfeelings against you.
I'm not mad at you.
I'm just I gotta let I gotta laythis down and I gotta let you
go.
SPEAKER_00 (36:26):
Um so usually in our podcast we have an unpack
session, and I mean that's notreally the case this time
necessarily, because when Ishared my forgiveness journey,
there wasn't really an unpack.
Um so I know for you that as youwere moving forward and you
decided that you were gonna takethe next step towards, you know,
(36:47):
whatever God might have for youif if you met someone new or
whatever.
But that the first big step foryou was to rebuild that trust.
It that was kind of hard foryou.
Yeah, it was not kinda.
It was difficult for you.
SPEAKER_03 (37:01):
Yeah, it took me a while.
SPEAKER_00 (37:02):
It did.
SPEAKER_03 (37:03):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (37:03):
And we stay a while.
We only knew each other foreight months when we got
married, but okay.
SPEAKER_03 (37:07):
It feels like a while to me.
Because things I always think mylife moves in slow motion.
And you're and my kids are likeeven Cody said the other day, he
goes, Do you ever just sit downand just chill?
Because I yeah, on Saturdayswhen football's home, but that's
about it.
SPEAKER_00 (37:21):
No, you don't even sit down on Saturdays.
SPEAKER_03 (37:22):
Yeah, I don't usually I'm sitting down.
Usually the hooping andhollering and it's not.
SPEAKER_00 (37:26):
Yeah, it's usually Sunday afternoons is really the
only time like we get home fromchurch, we both put on pajamas
and we don't move off the couchthe rest of the day.
Sunday is really the only day wedon't move.
unknown (37:38):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (37:38):
Unless we have plans or we're gonna go on an
adventure with family orwhatever.
But um that was the buildingtrust was hard.
But then also as you're movingforward with building trust, not
even just before you met me, youhad to learn to trust again.
Um, but you had to build backyour self-esteem, you had to
build back your self-worth.
(38:00):
And while you were still, youknow, working on those things,
is that took a while.
Um, and then we met.
And then we had to worktogether, we had to work really
hard for you to know that youcan trust me.
SPEAKER_03 (38:12):
Yeah.
And I I even still now sometimesI deal with the self-worth issue
and self-uh self-esteem stuff.
I mean, I think that's a it's anormal thing, but as a dude,
that's just that's really,really hard.
SPEAKER_04 (38:24):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_03 (38:25):
Um and how you deal with it.
People deal with loss anddivorce and stuff in different
ways.
And mine may not have been thehealthiest way.
I mean, I had I was literallywhen it I it happened, I had I
guarantee you, eight guys showup at my house and said, the
same thing's happened to me.
What do I do?
And I was like, bro, I was drunkright here on this front door
(38:46):
last night.
I I don't know what the hell totell you.
I'm trying to keep my feet underme right now.
Like, I don't know.
I don't I don't know what to do.
Like he's like, well, I don'tknow what to do either.
Well, go figure it out.
That's what I'm doing.
SPEAKER_00 (38:58):
We don't know what to do together.
I feel like um I know that Isaid in the beginning I was
gonna rely on you to help me askmy question.
SPEAKER_02 (39:05):
I know y'all have been doing a great job though.
I feel like I did okay.
You did great.
Well, I do have a question.
Okay.
If we still have time.
SPEAKER_00 (39:11):
Yes.
SPEAKER_02 (39:12):
Um talking about forgiveness, what led you to
forgive?
And on multiple sides, one beingyour father, your ex-wife.
But also one very common thing,and because I know I've
experienced it in in my divorceand things I went through, but
also in other people's divorceas well, is so many times there
(39:33):
is a such a um uh uh overlyharsh self-analyzation.
unknown (39:41):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (39:41):
And we have a hard time.
One, we overthink things of whatwe did, every action we did.
Even if you didn't even doanything wrong, it still feels
like you did.
SPEAKER_05 (39:51):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (39:52):
So how did you not only learn or what led you to uh
start that process of forgivingothers, but then also yourself
to be able to do that?
SPEAKER_00 (40:01):
Before you answer, I will say he still overly
self-analyzes himself till thisday.
I mean, it's been a long timesince all of that happened to
him, and we've been married foralmost 13 years.
You still overanalyze yourself.
(40:23):
And I feel like I I just just Iwill speak from experience.
I feel like you have a a lot ofof freedom to be who you are in
our marriage.
I've never asked you to beanything more than just who you
are, you just show up and I loveyou because of that, but you
still you really overanalyzeyourself.
SPEAKER_03 (40:45):
I have unrealistic expectations for myself.
Yes, you do.
Um, I expect way more out ofmyself.
Um dude, I'm I'm I mean, if youif you pick, there's a handful
of people you could call rightnow and they would say every
single bit of that.
Um my divorce was my fault.
Um and it took me a while todeal with that.
(41:07):
It took me a while to deal withlosing uh uh some of my best
friends.
SPEAKER_00 (41:12):
Because friends will pick a side every time.
SPEAKER_03 (41:14):
They always pick a side.
And that's I mean, as crazy asit sounds, that's probably one
of the harder things too,because you just feel alone.
Um it just feels out there.
I think the thing that pushed meto have to forgive was with my
dad, it was my anger and my thatwas an anger that was just
growing in me that just made meI was just an anger I was I I
(41:38):
didn't mind fighting.
I didn't mind if you mouth offto me, I was like, okay, let's
go.
SPEAKER_00 (41:44):
But then you realized I was a reflection of
him, and that's what you did notwant to be.
SPEAKER_03 (41:48):
Right.
I was like, I am the guy that Inever wanted to be.
I am a mirror image of that.
And so I was like, I have tostop that.
And the only way to stop thatwas to let go of that pain and
that hurt.
And so that was the step for himfor forgiveness.
The it's honestly though, um,with my ex-wife, it was I'm
(42:08):
gonna have to talk to her forthe next 15 years because of our
kids.
So I have to figure out how tolet go of this so I'm not hating
and angry at her every time Ipick up the kids or drop the
kids off.
SPEAKER_00 (42:20):
Well, then when we have grandchildren from Callie
and Cody, we're still gonna bethere.
But what about for for folks whodid not have children with their
exes and you still have to dealwith all those same feelings?
Like how what would you suggest?
SPEAKER_03 (42:43):
Anger and and frustration is like um it's like
drinking poison and andexpecting the worst for the
other person.
It's like you you you'recreating the damage for
yourself.
Forgiveness isn't for them,forgiveness is for you.
For yourself, yeah.
(43:03):
It's it's totally for you tomove on.
Like, um, because that willaffect every relationship you
have from uh moving forward.
Um you gotta let go of that.
You can't you know the I've I'veheard the old ad those saying so
many times, um you can't youcan't grab the future if you're
holding on to the past.
SPEAKER_00 (43:24):
That's so true.
SPEAKER_03 (43:24):
And so it's like you just gotta sometimes open your
hands up and let go.
SPEAKER_00 (43:28):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_03 (43:28):
And so it's not an easy thing.
By no means it's a process.
It's a it's not a one-time, I'mdone, I'm good process.
SPEAKER_00 (43:38):
And forgiveness, no matter how you arrive to the
point where you have the choicewhether to give it or not or to
let go of it or not, it's hard.
But no matter how you get tothat point, whether it be
through my experience or yourexperience or any other
experience that any of ourlisteners might have been
through, forgiveness equalsfreedom.
SPEAKER_03 (44:00):
Yeah, it's definitely freedom.
It really does.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (44:03):
It's freedom.
SPEAKER_03 (44:04):
Yeah.
So my unpack, and I know we'reover our time.
If I'm telling you to unpack,I'm saying, man, start the steps
toward forgiveness.
And and and you're right,there's so much freedom on the
other side of that.
Um because it really is likeyou're carrying around a weight
on you.
SPEAKER_04 (44:22):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_03 (44:23):
Um, you're carrying around this thing.
Um your personality is going todetermine on how fast that
happens for you and what thatlooks like, and it's always
different.
Um, I am hypercritical of myselfbecause I always producer
Michael and I read a booktogether, and I asked him the
other day, we're having coffee,and I was like, You ever thought
like I got another gear?
(44:44):
Like, I have another gear.
I can go faster.
And he's just like, mmm, okay.
And I was like, like for me,it's it's one of those things
like I always want to pushmyself to see what I could do.
Like, yeah, I ran a halfmarathon without training.
I was like, yeah, I can do that.
So I ran a half marathon.
Then I was like, oh, I can runanother one.
And so then it just led to this.
The whole idea for me, though,like I do things differently in
(45:07):
my life.
I get that.
Um but for anyone out there, ifyou've been in this situation,
you're probably more in thesituation I've been in than you
were with Jess Trevor.
SPEAKER_00 (45:17):
Likely.
Hopefully.
SPEAKER_03 (45:18):
They're both they're both.
Not hopefully.
SPEAKER_00 (45:20):
Ugh, that's weird to say.
SPEAKER_03 (45:22):
I know what you mean.
SPEAKER_00 (45:23):
Okay.
SPEAKER_03 (45:23):
I think I know what you mean.
I hope the listeners don't know.
I know what you mean.
Okay.
But divorce is so prevalent andso It is.
Um there's so many blendedfamilies out there.
I can tell you this if you don'tforgive your ex and you don't
move past that, you're bringingall that really toxic, really
bad baggage into the marriagethat you have now with the
(45:44):
present kids, with the wife.
SPEAKER_00 (45:45):
And that's gonna make it even harder.
SPEAKER_03 (45:47):
Oh, yeah.
It makes it way harder.
You just dumped a bunch oftoxicity.
SPEAKER_02 (45:51):
If we if we held on to all the baggage we've ever
accumulated over our life.
SPEAKER_00 (45:56):
Right.
SPEAKER_02 (45:57):
Like I wouldn't be able to get anywhere.
Like it would be sooverwhelming.
SPEAKER_00 (46:00):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (46:01):
Because I would agree.
And I mean, it's not like not toturn forgiveness into a
self-focused thing, but youbecome so much healthier when
you forgive.
SPEAKER_00 (46:10):
You do, a hundred percent.
SPEAKER_02 (46:12):
You know, and I I think that yeah, if you do take
a self uh uh absorbed approachto forgiveness, you might not
fully re- get to that forgivingpart.
But if you can truly forgivesomeone else, understanding that
we're all human, we all haveflaws, it doesn't excuse what
they did, but still be able tohave forgiveness.
SPEAKER_00 (46:33):
Forgiveness doesn't equal your excuse for your
actions.
Forgiveness is I'm gonna let goof it because I know that you're
human.
I'm also human.
I've got to let go of it.
I can't carry that anymore.
I can't carry it.
SPEAKER_03 (46:48):
Yeah.
It's letting go of a lot ofthings.
It is.
So um well, all right.
SPEAKER_00 (46:53):
Well, we're we did it, and I asked you questions
this time.
SPEAKER_03 (46:57):
Good job.
We went a little longer than wewanted to.
Thanks.
So I just I just want to saythanks everybody so much for uh
listening for your support.
Uh we are truly working ontrying to make baggage clean
better.
We've been work I've beenworking on the website at night
when I'm not working.
SPEAKER_00 (47:16):
It is true.
We do a lot of things, but hedoes carry a lot of the weight
of the behind-the-scenes things.
SPEAKER_03 (47:23):
We're trying to get some baggage claim merch out
there so you can wear like hatsor t-shirts or sweatshirts.
We'll wear them.
If you want to wear one and youwant to buy one, awesome.
Uh if you don't, I don't blameyou.
It's okay.
Uh but at the same time, it'slike we're working on trying to
get these things out there.
Yeah.
Um, it just takes time becausewe both have full-time jobs and
uh this is something we're doingfor fun.
(47:44):
Uh just help us spread the word.
Please like, subscribe, um, passthis around, share it with other
friends, family.
SPEAKER_00 (47:51):
We genuinely appreciate you joining us.
SPEAKER_03 (47:53):
Yes, thank you so much.
I mean, just I told Jess theother day, I was like, someone
listened to your forgivenessstory that was in Salem, Oregon.
Someone listened to yourforgiveness story that was in
Pennsylvania.
Uh and I was like, how cool isthat that your story gets to
share?
And so thank you guys forallowing us to share our lives
and our stories.
SPEAKER_04 (48:12):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_03 (48:12):
Uh we want to be respectful, we want to be honest
and and authentic uh with who weare.
And so thanks for listening.
SPEAKER_04 (48:20):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_03 (48:21):
Um, enjoy and um have a great evening too.
Popular Podcasts
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com
The Bobby Bones Show
Listen to 'The Bobby Bones Show' by downloading the daily full replay.