Interview With Dr. Hayley Gammons

Episode Transcript
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(00:05):
Welcome to the show, everybody. We've got an awesome guest
today. We have Doctor Haley Gammons
here. Hello.
Haley is awesome. She's a veterinarian.
We're super excited to have us. She's a veterinarian in
Franklin, TN. She can walk you through all of
that stuff. But we're going to talk about
some really cool things today. We're going to talk about
socializing a puppy, how that ties into vaccines for your

(00:27):
puppy. We're going to talk about spay
and neuter, Probably going to talk a little bit about dog
food, raw versus kibble, and there's just all kinds of neat
topics. We've got a giant list.
I don't know if we're going to get through them all, but we're
going to get get through some stuff for sure.
So welcome to the show. Oh, Haley, we're excited to have
you. Thanks, I'm really excited to be
here. Thank you for taking the time.
I know you are busy, but we are very excited.

(00:48):
This is going to be super helpful to our clients.
We get these questions a lot, soI'm really fired up about this.
Yeah, this is going to be great.I love talking with people
about, you know, all things vet Med.
So very excited to be here have this conversation.
Well, why don't we start? Just fill us in on you.
So you're a veterinarian. Tell us your story.
How did how did you decide to bea veterinarian?

(01:09):
What was your journey to that like?
Yeah, Well, it's one of those things, and I know this is going
to be very similar to a lot of veterinarians.
It's what I've wanted to do since I was a kid.
I mean, my dad has a picture of me playing with, you know, my
stuffed animals as a vet when I was like 4 years old that he
keeps on his desk. So it's just kind of always been
the dream and ever since I was akid and I just have somehow

(01:32):
managed to get everything to fall into place to get here.
So I graduated two years ago, 2022 from Lincoln Memorial
University. And I've been practicing, like
you said, in Franklin, in Tennessee and loving every
second of it since then. And it's been fantastic.

(01:53):
And like I said, love vet Med, all things vet Med, love public
health, all things public healthand talking with people and
education. I think that's a big portion of
our jobs as veterinarians is to communicate, you know, all the
knowledge that we have that we went to school for and that we

(02:14):
are keeping up to date to on allthe time so that pet owners can
make the best choices for their pets.
I love that you said that about,you know, feeling like your job
is to educate because this is not knock against veterinarians,
but everyone, you know, has a different skill level there.
And I think a lot of it comes down to time where some
veterinarians seem so busy and Iknow they're pulled 1000

(02:38):
different directions. I know it's a stressful job.
And I know I've talked to some clients and I've met some
veterinarians that I think don'tdo enough on the education
front. And I know they have the
knowledge in their brain. It's obviously there, but I
think they're probably pulled too many different directions.
Does that seem accurate to you? Absolutely, absolutely.
I think I've seen that too, evenin my own practice and working

(02:59):
with people who have worked withother vets of, you know, oh, I
didn't know that. And I'm like, OK, great, let's
talk about it now. And you know, I always try to
make that time, but it doesn't always happen.
I mean, in the vet community we're chronically understaffed
and overbooked and all of that sort of thing.
So, you know, it's just, I thinkrealizing that that's a real

(03:21):
important part of veterinary practice is talking with
clients, talking with people and, you know, if you can have
that information on the front and you can prevent a lot of
problems on the back end. So I think knowing going into
it, you know, talking about the preventative care medicine,
talking about, you know, healthynutrition or we should, you
know, do these vaccines or whatever it is, helps you

(03:45):
prevent those issues down the line and makes your job as a vet
a lot easier too. Absolutely.
So you mentioned when you were akid that you wanted to be a
veterinarian and you'd play vet when, you know, when you're a
child. So I can't tell you how often
I'm working with a client and their kid, their, you know,
child wants to be a veterinarianand they ask me for input and I
always tell them like you shouldtalk to veterinarians for sure.

(04:06):
What would your advice be to a whatever, let's say a 10 year
old kid? I guess age doesn't really
matter, but a young child who wants to be a veterinarian, what
would you tell them? I think the biggest thing is
getting to know people within the vet community, talking to
them, whether that's if you havea dog, talking to your own vet,
when you go take your dog into the vet and be like, hey, I'm
kind of interested in this. What's your story like?

(04:29):
How did you get into vet Med? A big part of, you know, vet
school, getting into vet school and that whole thing is
experience on the front end. So you know, wherever you can,
volunteering for your vet, you know, some vets will allow that
trying to get, you know, in workat a vet as a veterinary
assistant, You know, things of that nature are going to be

(04:49):
super, super helpful. I think to a lot of the times.
I always, you know, we recommendpeople look at it that
especially as they get closer into like actually wanting to
apply to vet school, that sort of thing.
Look at your reason why. Why do you wanna be a vet in the
1st place? Because it's tough.
Vet school, especially super tough.

(05:10):
It's a lot of information. You like hitting you like a fire
hose all at once and it it can be a lot and demanding on your
mental health. And I think if you long as you
have that, why in place and in your mind of why do I want to be
a vet? And for me, that's always been
helping animals, helping people better connect with their
animals, that as long as you have that, it'll help get you

(05:33):
through those really tough timesand those tough days when you
know you have 30 clients on the schedule and you feel like
you'll never get through it all type of thing.
And so having that foundation, Ithink is super important when
you get into vet Med. That's good advice.
I mean, I give people the same advice similar when they want to
become a dog trainer is learn about it first, right?

(05:54):
Talk to people in the industry and really learn about it
because it's, you know, sometimes you think about a job
and you see it as like, you know, it's perfect, right?
Rose colored lenses and you don't know the downsides with
dog training. I always tell people just go
like volunteer at a shelter or work at a doggy daycare.
Do something to realize what theindustry is like.

(06:15):
And I would assume, you know, being a veterinarian, like
having some experience in a vet office and seeing what it's
actually like would be really, really helpful for people.
Absolutely, absolutely. I think, you know, the first
time I got into a vet clinic, I was a little nervous 'cause I
was like, you know, this is whatI thought I wanted to do my
entire life. What if I get in there and
absolutely hate it? Like, that's it for me, you

(06:37):
know? How old were you the first time
you were working in one? Let's see, I think I got my
first job at a clinic when I was16.
I was working as a kennel assistant in the boarding
facilities that a veterinary clinic had and I worked there

(06:57):
for a summer between between school and I really loved it,
but was still like, you know, I feel like I'm not really on the
vet Med side of things. Obviously.
I just had kind of gotten my foot in the door.
So I think what I actually was in clinic, like really learning
things. I was 18, was the first time I
was really in there and working.I mean, it sounds though like

(07:19):
you really did it right because you gave yourself the time that
if you realized it wasn't for you, you haven't gone to vet
school yet. You haven't put in years and
years of work and a ton of money.
Exactly. That's the hope at least, you
know? Yeah.
Because, you know, every job is not for everybody, right?
And I think that's huge because I know I've talked to some

(07:40):
younger people that thought theywanted to be a veterinarian and
then found out they didn't have,I don't want to say the stomach
for it, but it was like they, they couldn't handle, you know,
the stressful and the scary and the sad parts of it, right?
I. Mean.
That's why everyone's not a surgeon too, right?
Like. Exactly, exactly.
It's definitely you have to haveyour your head on right, and I

(08:01):
don't always, but you know, for the most part, you know, can
kind of keep your head and compartmentalize things a little
bit. You'll see a lot of things, you
know, in vet Med that can make you really sad and make you
really upset. And you just have to learn how
to put that to the side and helpwhat you can and do what you can
in the the situations that you're you're given.

(08:22):
And I think, yeah, if you can't,if you can't quite figure out
how to do that super well or that's not super healthy,
healthy for you as an individual, then yeah, that Med
probably isn't your best option there.
Understood. All right, well, why don't we
move into vaccines and puppies and just to kind of set the

(08:42):
stage for everyone listening is what specifically we're going to
dive into is what puppy vaccinesare like, what they're for and
how you socialize a puppy in conjunction with vaccines.
This is a big topic. It's somewhat of a hot button
topic. So there there's a lot here.
I think why don't we start though, Haley, with just could
you give us a quick overview of the timeline of puppy shots and

(09:07):
what there for? And just I think brief because
I'm sure most of everyone listening has had these shots
for their dogs, but a brief overview just so we're all on
the same page of what shots you're getting and roughly when
you get them. Right.
So I think the biggest thing to understand kind of going into
the vaccine discussion of, you know, why we do when we do our
vaccines. So we do them early on in a

(09:29):
puppy's life, typically startingbetween six weeks and eight
weeks of age, because at that point is when we start to see
maternal bodies drop off. And so we're increasing our
antibodies then with our vaccines.
So vaccines aren't going to be as effective when we have those
maternal antibodies on hand, which is why we are going to
booster our vaccines in series to ensure when our maternal

(09:52):
antibodies have completely dropped off, we're covered by
our vaccinations. So that's kind of why we do
vaccines early, why we booster vaccines.
And so as of right now, according to AHA standards, we
have our core vaccines and then we have our vaccines that are
considered lifestyle vaccines. And could you just clarify for

(10:15):
everyone what are AHA standards?Yes, so aha is.
I always forget it's alphabet soup.
I feel like some sure, sometimes, but it's what is it?
The American? Oh hang on now I'm gonna have to
look up. Aha.
I can never remember what everything stands for.
And I don't think the Akronism or acronym is all that
important. But really just so people know,

(10:36):
I mean, what, what is it? These are the standards that all
veterinarians follow. For the most part, so it's the
American Animal Hospital Association.
So it is kind of the organization that's going to go
through a lot of the hospitals and look at all the literature
and look and see what's the mosteffective, what's going to

(10:57):
protect our animals the best. And how can we somewhat
standardize this through the US so that all pets are receiving
appropriate care and are receiving the highest quality
care based on the latest research within whatever field
that is? OK.
So, so with that then we have, you know, the rabies obviously

(11:25):
is going to be one of our our core vaccinations.
Distemper parvo is going to be another one of our core
vaccinations. Leptospirosis is going to be one
of our other core vaccinations. And then some places are going
to also consider Bordetella as acore vaccine, but that one is
still kind of a plus or minus within the requirements for AHA.

(11:51):
So really you have your, your 3 core vaccines, your rabies, your
distemper parvo and your leptospirosis vaccine.
And so with that, typically you're not going to do all those
vaccines all at the same time with our puppies.
Typically we're going to start with just the doing the
distemper parvo at that first puppy visit when you're coming

(12:11):
in at 8 weeks old with your brand new puppy.
And we kind of stagger them a little bit somewhat because, you
know, we want to monitor for things like vaccine reactions.
And if we give 3 vaccines in oneday, we have a reaction.
We don't know what exactly we'rereacting to.
And now, you know, vaccine reactions aren't super common,

(12:31):
but when they do happen, it's really nice to know what exactly
caused the reaction so we can avoid that in future.
But starting at that initial appointment, typically we'll get
them in for booster appointmentsevery three weeks is how is how
that works. And so during this time, you
know, we're still somewhat covered by our maternal

(12:54):
antibodies, we're somewhat covered by these vaccines that
we're getting, but we're not considered fully vaccinated,
fully immune to these, you know,really dangerous diseases that
we're vaccinating against. So that also brings up the
question of, well, I have my puppy.
This is the time I'm supposed tobe socializing my puppy.
So what do I do? How do I do that safely?

(13:15):
And so one of the biggest thingsfor for me when looking at, yes,
we need to socialize our puppy, but we're not quite fully
vaccinated is we want to socialize in in ways that are
controlled and we are doing the least possible risk for the
puppy. So avoiding things like dog

(13:37):
parks or avoiding things like, you know, daycares, things of
that nature where we're going tohave large amounts of dogs
together. Dogs, we don't know what their
vaccine status is. We don't know if they're, you
know, carriers for something andare subclinical.
And so avoiding that as much as possible in those early stages.

(13:59):
I always, you know, talk to people recommending, you know,
if you have a friend that you know, has a dog that you want to
introduce your dog to, that's great.
Make sure you know their vaccinehistory.
Like just ask your friend, is your dog fully vaccinated?
If they're not, don't bring yourpuppy over, you know, and
avoiding those areas where we know there's going to be large

(14:19):
congregations of dogs using areas, you know, instead of
maybe going to PetSmart every time for your, for your
training, going to some place like Home Depot or something
like that where there's fewer dogs, fewer exposure potentials
for that young puppy as they arenot considered fully vaccinated
at that time. Lot of really good info there.

(14:42):
So a a couple things just kind of big picture for everyone
listening. So right now, you know, we're
talking, you know, we've talked about rabies, you know, lepto,
distemper, parvo. You know, what generally most
people are are worried about at a young age is distemper and
parvo from a socialization standpoint.
And anytime I say something, youknow, Haley, that you disagree

(15:05):
with or you know, isn't accurate, please, you know,
interrupt. And of course, that's, that's
why you're here, right? Give this advice.
So just big picture, we're not talking rabies as as much right
now. We're talking about, you know,
distemper and parvo. And for everyone listening, you
might wonder, and we'll talk more, I think about, you know,
when a dog is fully vaccinated, what the risk is and, you know,
between different shots. But you might ask, well, then

(15:27):
why not just delay socializing until after you get the shots?
That seems obvious, right? Why not do that?
And the reason is just that, youknow, from a behavior standpoint
is dogs have something called a critical socialization period,
and it ends at roughly 16 weeks of age.
You know, could be 12 weeks, could be 14.
It's not like an exact thing. And this is really important.

(15:47):
They need to see everything they're going to see in their
daily life, you know, throughouttheir throughout their life,
they're they need to see during that time frame, otherwise
they're going to be programmed to distrust it.
And the best way I can explain it to anyone listening, and if
you've heard our puppy episodes,you've probably heard me say a
similar analogy. But imagine like a young dog in
the wild who grows up, you know,he's born with, you know, mom

(16:08):
and dad and the litter mates or a wolf or whatever, any similar
animal. And they're hanging out with mom
and dad. They're learning what's normal
with their litter mates. And once they hit about four
months old, anything they haven't seen, they're programmed
to distrust. And that's a survival thing.
You don't want a dog or a wolf at one year old.
You know, let's say it's a wild dog in Africa or somewhere and
they are in Asia or they see an elephant and they're like, oh,

(16:31):
this is neat. This could be my friend, right?
And they go up and they get stomped to death, right?
Or they see a lion and they're like, oh, it's fur like soft.
I should go see him, right. They're getting, they get mauled
to death. They need to distrust those
things. This is a natural instinct dogs
have to not trust things they don't see when they're young.
What that does and in our households though, of course, is
if you don't socialize your dog when they're young and they

(16:52):
never see someone with a different skin color than you or
a beard or a very tall person orsomeone in a wheelchair or
someone with a very deep voice or another dog or a cat or a
whatever. And they see it the first time
that, you know, 16 weeks or 18 weeks, it could be a big issue.
You could have missed that socialization period.
So that's what we're talking about here is you're missing a

(17:15):
very critical time. You're not just delayed by like,
OK, I started at 16 weeks, I'm just two months behind.
You miss the most important timeto socialize your dog.
So that's, that's what this conversation is really all
about. And and that's why we don't just
wait and we talk about how do wesocialize smart?
So. I.
I think getting back to what youwere saying, I love those tips

(17:36):
about how to socialize smart during this time frame.
So you were saying you know things like don't go to the dog
park? Agreed.
I always tell a client that seems insane to do with the
puppy. I don't like going them going to
Petco or PetSmart either. I would much rather see Home
Depot. I have a question for you.
So I always encourage my clients.

(17:56):
I always say exactly what you said.
Go see if your friend is a dog that's vaccinated, that's great.
I do encourage them if that dog's been at doggy daycare or
the dog park that day, to maybe pass on it because of the worry
that parvo or distemper could becarried on their fur.
What do you think about that? Is that being overly cautious or
is that a smart thing to do? I.
Think that it's smart I you know, with doggy daycares we see

(18:21):
so many times, even with our fully vaccinated dogs, we can
still get these outbreaks that happen occasionally.
That's just the nature of having, you know, that many
animals in one one space. And so I think that's really
smart actually that, you know, we don't know what they are

(18:41):
bringing home and they are probably not going to have an
issue with it because they have this immunity or they have their
vaccinations, whatever it is. But I do think that's really
smart that, you know, not socializing new puppy with
someone who's been exposed to a bunch of other dogs that day.
I totally agree with that statement.
So the worry would be in my mindthat the dog dog that comes home

(19:05):
is, like you said, they're, they're vaccinated for parvo and
distemper. So they don't get it.
But in theory, it could be on their fur, right?
Could you walk us through a little bit how parvo and
distemper are actually? How are they contagious?
How does a new dog get them fromanother dog?
Yeah. So with that a lot of the time
it is kind of similar to like ifthe flu for us, if that's kind

(19:30):
of how I like to to describe it.It's kind of those, those
secretions that we get that we touch and then we get them in or
around our face and our mucosa. And that's how we kind of get
that that transfer starting. And so, you know, especially
with parvovirus, that is really,really hard to get out of the

(19:51):
environment after it's in the environment, it likes to stay
there. It's really heavy, heavy
chemicals that we have to use. You know, if we have a case in
the clinic, we can't even put anyone in that room for a week
afterwards. Like it's very, very contagious.
Just a little bit getting on a surface can can cause

(20:11):
contamination for a very long time.
So that's kind of, yeah, why I would agree, you know, bringing
things home even on the fur if we did have something where
there was. Virus around that is very much a
possibility of moving it from one place to the other through
that method because it is. It's just the secretions that we

(20:32):
get, we don't see visually that causes the that virus.
So how are they? How does the dog get like parvo
or distemper? So is it airborne?
Is it from touching things? Is it from?
Can they just walking over spotswhere parvo and distemper have
been? What are the different ways you
get it? What are the, you know, the

(20:53):
things to worry about? South primarily with parvo it is
going to be feces. So it is going to be the
parvovirus. It sits in our intestines and it
kind of sloughs the intestines off with it as it leaves the the
system, which is why it's so dangerous.

(21:14):
And so that infected feces especially is going to be very,
very viral, very, very infectious.
So fecal material is going to bethe big thing for parvo, but we
can get it with other secretionsless commonly.
Most of the time it is going to be that feces, but we can get it
occasionally with other secretions that are causing the

(21:36):
transmission to happen. And then with the distemper,
it's more of the secretions fromlike coughing, sneezing, mucosal
contamination that we we see with that.
So that one is a little bit harder to see because it is the
the lighter secretions, if you will.
It's not the the feces, but mucosal contact with with those.

(21:59):
So of course, there's, there's never a guarantee in life,
right? You can get a horrible disease,
you know, almost no matter what,right?
I mean, things could happen, right?
Bad luck or you know, nothing's foolproof.
If you're walking your puppy through a store and you're not
saying hi to other dogs, what's the risk of getting parvo or

(22:22):
distemper? I know it's not zero, it's never
going to be 0 and I know you can't give an exact percentage,
but is it like insanely minimal?Like don't even really worry
about it. Like you're just what?
And when I say a store not home,I'm sorry, not Petco where a dog
is just pooped or peed right there.
But you know, just whatever, some dog friendly store.
What would you say the risk is there?

(22:42):
I would say it's pretty minimal most of the time.
You know, if a dog has distemperor parvo, they're going to be
showing symptoms. There's very few that are going
to be subclinical, especially with parvo.
That one, you know, don't see that one as much unless we have
like a patient zero, if you will, that we can see the spread

(23:04):
kind of coming from really, really, you know, low risk going
into those stores. Again, like you said, not no
risk, but I think, you know, as long as we're avoiding other
dogs, we're avoiding, you know, areas that may be a little bit
dirty, contaminated looking. If we see an area on the floor
that we're like there's some mysterious, you know, fluid

(23:27):
there, probably avoid that with your puppy, which I'm sure you
would do anyway. But you know, those sorts of
things are going to be going to be how we keep keep our puppies
a little safer. You mentioned earlier maternal
antibodies, and I think this is a good place to talk a little
bit. So puppies come with some
antibodies from mom and then they get, they start getting

(23:48):
shots. And when you get the, I'm sorry,
not rabies, parvone distemper shots, there's a series of them,
right? Could you walk us through just
roughly how that works? Is that, you know, people often
ask questions like, OK, so if they get shot #1 of rabies and
or I'm sorry of parvone distemper, if there's three,
does that mean they're 33% protected?

(24:10):
You know, can you walk us through how does that actually
work with antibodies from mom? And then what is each shot
doing? How are they different from each
other? So with that, you know, the
antibodies from mom are going tobe different for every puppy and
the protection factor from each vaccine and each vaccine booster
is going to be different on a dog to dog basis.

(24:31):
But in general what we'll see isaround that, you know eight week
mark is when our maternal antibodies start dropping off.
So before then getting a lot of those antibodies, we got them
initially from mom with that first feeding our colostrum, and
then we're getting them in our milk that we're getting from

(24:53):
mom. And as we stop ingesting them,
obviously they're going to startdropping off.
So we have kind of a little bit of a level here, again,
depending dog to dog, depending mom to mom, what that's going to
actually look like. But in general, we start to see
those start dropping off. So that's when we start our
vaccine series. So with each vaccine, we're

(25:15):
going to have a little bit of that puppy start producing their
own antibodies so they can fightoff that disease on their own.
But you also got mom's antibodies hanging out there and
sometimes mom's antibodies don'tget along with vaccine and so
they will kind of fight each other off.
So we're not getting that full protection from the vaccine

(25:35):
because even though mom's antibodies are one helping us,
you know, protect us, they're also keeping that vaccine from
being 100% effective, which is the reason we do boosters.
So when you get that first, you know vaccine of that distemper
parvo, we are not fully protected because that vaccine
was is not going to reach peak efficacy because we have moms

(25:59):
antibodies to deal with, but we still have some coverage from
moms antibodies, but we're stillnot at 100% because we have that
little bit of a fight happening.Moms antibodies are still
constantly waning. And so with that wane, we
typically see that start to end around the 13 to 15 to 16 week

(26:19):
mark, which is why we're going to do our last vaccine within
that time frame. Because once we hit that last
vaccine, at that point, the thought is that we're fully
protected by that vaccine. We don't have mom's antibodies
fighting it off anymore and we're going to fully react to
that vaccine so that we have that full protection at that
point. And then you kind of have your

(26:41):
your annual boosters from there to make sure that we're keeping
that at that high level. Go in distemper, a puppy's
getting 3 rounds of those correct?
Yes. So a question you know, I've had
from clients before is these these three rounds, is it like
shot A, shot B, shot C that all add up and now they're protected

(27:03):
like they're all separate parts or are they the same thing and
it's just a little more effective each time?
And I think you already answeredthat, but just so we're
answering it even more clearly. Yeah, absolutely.
And that's option 2. So it's all the same thing.
It's just become the body is responding to it better and
better and better. And what would you say, and not
looking for an exact percentage here because I'm sure, of course

(27:24):
it depends on the dog, it depends on how they're taking
everything. But how protected is the average
dog do you think after shot 1 compared to shot 2 compared to
shot 3 if you just had to throw some really rough words or
numbers at it? Sure.
I would say, you know, after shot 1, we are protected in a

(27:47):
sense that I don't think, you know, if we had a very small
amount of it in the environment,we would be affected.
But if we're in an environment where we have a lot of potential
pathogen, then there's a risk ofinfection still.
Very much so. So, you know, with that, I would
say, you know, if we had a little bit of, you know, a dog

(28:10):
had come through with distemper a week ago and there's ever so
slightly some left in the store you walk your puppy into, we
probably are going to be relatively protected with that
first booster on board. But on contrary, we had a dog
with let's say parvo that came and just had some diarrhea in

(28:31):
the corner. I would not bring my puppy that
with one vaccine on board into that room because we are still
at a high risk for infection. Does that make sense?
Absolutely. OK.
And then after the second shot, then they're much more
protected. Yes, much more protected.
And then by the time we hit thatthird, we are fully vaccinated
at that point and should have anappropriate response.

(28:54):
Going back to socializing for a minute, and the reason we're
talking about this is there's a lot of veterinarians that we
hear from what you know, I've, I've actually never met one who
says this to me, but I hear it from clients all the time where
they were told, Hey, don't, don't socialize your dog till
they're fully vaccinated. And that worries me because of
what we've talked about already.And So what I talk about with

(29:14):
clients First off is I always, you know, encourage them to do
some research and like, I'm a dog trainer, not a veterinarian.
So I'll tell you what I do with my own dogs.
I'll tell you my advice, but youneed to research it and talk to
somebody. But think, when we think through
socializing, there's different ways to socialize your dog and
there's different goals. Now, one is to socialize with
dogs. That is where your higher risk

(29:35):
of distemper and parvo comes from, of course, but you also
one of the biggest goals is to socialize with humans because if
your dog is going to grow up to either be dog aggressive or
human aggressive, that answer ispretty obvious which one you
would choose, right? If you know a normal person
who's looking for a pet, right? Like, it's obviously a much
bigger deal if your dog doesn't like people.

(29:56):
So what I encourage people to dois, yeah, don't go look for 100
random dogs. That's not needed.
Now, I do want you to find 100 random people.
Like what? They don't need to be random,
but I want them to meet 100 people by the time they're 12
weeks old. That's usually pretty easy with
a puppy. But as you're socializing, yeah,
don't go to a dog heavy place. You're meeting a lot of people,
you're meeting children, and youwant to meet some dogs, but you

(30:19):
don't need a massive number of dogs.
And your neighbor's golden, that's probably a good dog to
meet. And your sister's whatever.
Cavapoo, probably a good dog to meet.
You know, the random dog you see, you know, walking through
the park. You know, maybe not unless you
really chat with that person fora while.
So I just, I encourage people tothink about what socializing

(30:41):
should actually look like. Socializing is not throwing your
dog off the deep end to meet 100new dogs.
It's meeting a small number and it's many other things in that
it's people, it's hearing buses and trains and seeing different
sites. So there's a lot of socializing
you can do that is insanely low risk because you're not an even

(31:02):
involved with dogs at that point.
And you're certainly of, you know, avoiding puddles of
diarrhea you're in and things like that.
Absolutely, absolutely. I totally, totally agree with
that. I feel like there would be, I
would have much better behaved dogs in my clinic if if they
were socialized like that from ayoung age.

(31:23):
I have so many kiddos who come in that are just so scared of
people just in general that yeah, it's that socialization.
I don't think it can be understated how important that
is in that time frame. I mean, they are really building
their foundation for their behavior and their attitude for

(31:46):
a lot of their life in those really early weeks of their
life. So yeah, I totally agree that
yes, there's definitely safe ways to socialize.
Definitely should socialize before.
Is that 18 weeks of age as much as you can to give your your pup
a good shot at having those goodbehavior traits that we want in

(32:10):
our in our pets. So, you know, clients will often
ask me about socializing and they'll say, Hey, my
veterinarian told me not to. And then I'll say, well, I, I
point them, I, I tell them my advice and I say, but obviously
there's no doctor in front of myname.
So I, I want you to, you know, do some research here.
But I point them to the AmericanVeterinary Society of Animal
Behavior. And it's a group of, you know,
veterinarians and their positionstatement very clear on their,

(32:33):
on the homepage of their site is, you know, and it's, it's not
like it's not hard to understand.
It's a position statement of we recommend socializing dogs
before they're fully vaccinated because the risks of not
socializing outweigh the risks of getting sick.
And it's, I mean, it's clear as can be.
And I guess my question for you is, why do you think there's so

(32:56):
many veterinarians? I mean, we have so many clients
that come to us terrified and they're like, they won't go for
a walk until their dog is 16 weeks of age.
They're not going to have them outside of their house until
they're over, you know, until they're fully vaccinated.
Why do you think so many veterinarians are telling people
that? Yeah.
I think a lot of it too kind of goes back to what we were
initially talking about of, of vets not always having that

(33:19):
mindset of client education first and foremost in their
thoughts when they're having those conversations.
I think for a lot of veterinarians, especially a lot
of veterinarians who have been in the vet world for a long
time, we've seen all the like big scary cases.
We've seen, you know, the litters of puppies with parvo

(33:39):
and the things that scare us andthe things that we don't want to
deal with on, you know, a regular basis.
So I think a lot of people for that reason will say, oh, just
don't socialize. They'll just, you know, don't
don't even worry about it until we're fully protected because
they've seen the big scary things.
I think, you know, we see too many of the big scary things.

(34:02):
I, I'm so paranoid with my own dog because of it.
And so I can see veterinarians, you know, wanting to say that
don't socialize because they want to fully eliminate the risk
of those big scary things. But I think, you know, in that
we're not doing our job as veterinarians in educating
people on, yeah, this is a risk.These are the precautions we

(34:23):
need to take. But it is important that we
socialize because these are the risks if we don't so socialize.
And so I think a lot of times too, with veterinarians, the
behavior problems don't start showing until they're a little
bit later in life. And so it's hard to, to make

(34:45):
that connection all the time of,hey, how did we socialize as a
puppy? Is that why we're having this
dog aggression? Is that why we're having this
human aggression or whatever it is later in life?
And, and should we be promoting that safe socialization from a
young age to be, you know, avoiding those, those behaviour

(35:06):
things? And they're just, we don't see
the connection there. I don't think as much more of
that's just really want to keep your dog safe from those big
scary things that we see with the reason that we're
vaccinating. And we don't always think about
the big scary behavior issues asgoing hand in hand with saying,

(35:27):
hey, don't socialize. Yeah.
And and to your point it. Is hard because the, the issues
crop up later, right? And we always, I get questions
from clients all the time where they say, you know, or I guess
more of a statement like I'm nottoo worried about it.
You know, my dog loves everybodyand everything.
Like, yes, because it's 12 weeksold and it's in the stage where
it's supposed to love everybody and everything.

(35:47):
If it doesn't, you're not going to see issues.
If you don't socialize at 16 weeks or even 18 weeks, I don't
know when they're going to crop up.
Could be six months, could be 12months.
They're going to crop up sometime.
As they get, you know, going to adolescence, they get
comfortable defending themselves.
It's going to crop up. And just like with humans,
things that happen when you're 2don't always affect you when
you're 3. You know, they, you know, come

(36:09):
up later in life and 'cause, youknow, big issues down the road.
So this isn't very rarely do yousee aggressive puppies.
And, you know, we do see a fair number of aggressive puppies as
trainers, but it's because those, you know, anyone with an
aggressive puppy calls a trainerright away, right.
So we see, we see a decent number, but it's, it's, it's
uncommon, right? Most puppies are incredibly

(36:31):
friendly. Exactly.
And it's it's. Funny too, you can see it in the
clinic when we're getting them in all the time for those boosts
through appointments. You can see sometimes the the
personality kind of shift even of their behavior in the vet
clinic. You know, that's why I'm always
talking about people of how to socialize your puppy to come see
me to make my life a little bit easier and their life a little

(36:54):
bit easier. So they're not completely
freaked out when they walk in the door.
But you can even see it in thesepuppies that that first
appointment, even that second appointment at that 12 week
mark, they're still, you know, loving it and great and want to
give everyone kiss and be past, you know, everyone wants to see
the cute puppy and all this stuff.
And then you start hitting thosenext couple appointments and

(37:15):
you'll start seeing those those dogs that weren't super
socialized. All of a sudden we're worried
about, OK, we're starting to geta little aggressive or a little
more nervous or more fearful andanxious at the vet.
And so the importance of, of that early socialization, yes,
absolutely. Because we can even even

(37:36):
quickly, but most of the time, yeah, that long term is when
we're gonna see those behavior changes.
Cuz most of the time I don't think I've had a young puppy
come in that's been just aggressive for being a puppy.
Yeah, they are. Certainly not that common,
right? So I would encourage.
People to not get tricked by analyzing a small sample size.

(38:01):
And what I mean by that is you say, hey, my neighbor, you know,
they didn't socialize till 16 weeks and their dog is fine.
That's awesome. I'm super happy that it worked
out for your neighbor, right? But that doesn't mean that it's
going to work out for you. And that's why, you know, I
point them to the American Veterinary Society of Animal

(38:21):
Behavior because they're playingwith a much bigger sample size,
not a sample size of one or two or three.
What I do tell clients is as a company, we've trained roughly
20,000 dogs somewhere in that number, you know, since we've
been in business and I have never, ever had a client and,
you know, or any of our trainershave, none of us have had a
client that was socializing in any normal fashion and had the

(38:44):
dog get parvo or distemper. Now, could it happen?
Absolutely. It could happen to one of our
clients tomorrow, right? There's no guarantee it can't.
I'm going to knock on wood for that.
Yeah, I was about to say knock on some wood.
Or something, but the only times.
We see it are dogs that, you know, have not been fully
vaccinated, they're getting a dog out of a rescue situation
and they were in a bad scenario.And, and I, so I explained

(39:06):
that's a pretty big sample size,20,000 is not a small number.
And these are people that we're encouraging to get out there and
socialize, but it's of course doit smartly.
So I would encourage everyone look at big sample sizes and as
opposed to very small ones. And sometimes you can't do that
in your, in real life. You have to turn to research, of
course, and talk to your veterinarian or, you know, do

(39:27):
some research online. Absolutely I.
Yeah, totally agree. And I will say to you that, you
know, I haven't thankfully haven't seen a ton of of parvo
cases or distemper cases in my my career thus far.
But with those, most of the timeI'm, I was seeing them rescue
come out of a bad situation or, you know, someone who just

(39:49):
didn't know that the breeder hadparvo within their their system.
And so, you know, that's where I'm seeing a lot of those cases.
I have not seen any of oh, we took our dog, you know.
Out to do socialization or out to do training or I sent them
off to training and they came back with the with parvo.
I have not seen that. And I think a lot of my

(40:12):
colleagues would would agree with me that we're very much
kind of within our clinic very much proponents of of that early
socialization. And I don't think we would be if
we had seen those those cases with the fact that we haven't
seen those cases and we know that smart socialization has
such a low risk. Yeah, I totally agree.

(40:34):
We're just we're not seeing the cases coming from smart
socialization, and that's a big caveat.
Right. That's smart socialization
there. And we, you know, for everyone
listening, we have some videos on this topic and some articles
on our website where, you know, put some stuff in writing for
you. And then we encourage you to, of
course, do more research. But you know, with my own dogs,
when they're young, there's no way I'd go to the dog park, no

(40:54):
way I'd go to, you know, Petco or PetSmart.
We go in public, we socialize. But I, I don't like if I'm at
the like a forest preserve or somewhere like, or like a City
Park and I'm walking on a path, I'll walk my young puppy there.
I won't let them wander for a long period of time through the
grass there. To me, even if the risk is
small, I, I don't see the value in it.

(41:14):
What socializing am I doing right then?
Really none. So then I'm just like upping the
risk for no real ward. I'm going to walk through my
neighborhood a lot. I'm going to go, you know, go to
a friend's house and introduce the puppy, have friends come
over, do a lot of things like that.
But the, you know, you just really think through what am I
doing right now and why am I doing it?
How important is this? And walking around a big field

(41:38):
where a bunch of dogs have been even you know, when I say a
bunch, even if it's not a dog park, it's probably not a high
value. What socializing are you doing?
And you are to, in my opinion, ahigher risk of a dog went to the
bathroom there. And even if if it's a tiny, tiny
risk, what's the point if you'regetting no real socializing out
of it? Absolutely.
And nothing wrong with lots. Of carrying your puppy.

(41:59):
An 8 week old dog can't walk, you know, for an insane amount
of time. So nothing wrong with going to
the park, carrying them around some, walking them some, and
then going somewhere else. You know, carrying them through
Home Depot. Let them put them down to say hi
to people. There's lots you can do.
That is all high value and insanely low risk.
Absolutely. Absolutely totally agree with
that. So completely different.

(42:19):
Subject. Just this popped into my mind
talking about the kind of samplesizes.
What do you think about antlers for dogs as a chew toy?
That is a great question. I love them and I hate them so.
And you know, with that, you know, my dog is a big chewer.
She loves chewing on things. I think the biggest thing with

(42:44):
that is knowing the risk and weighing those pros and cons for
your own pet. You know, the risks, of course,
with the antlers, my biggest thing that I see most of the
time with those as a problem is breaking teeth.
And then I'm having to extract teeth and, and it's a whole big
mess. And, you know, most of the time
it's not that big a deal for thedog in the long run.

(43:06):
But it's all, you know, pain anddiscomfort that we don't have to
have if we, you know, didn't have antlers.
But at the same time, you know, if our dog's a chewer and we
need something to chew on and everything else they're
destroying, then they're at riskfor foreign bodies if they eat
something that they've destroyed.
And so I think the biggest thingwith antlers for me is to do it

(43:27):
with supervision and to, you know, have those other chews and
I think try those other chews that are gonna be a little bit
easier on the teeth, especially,you know, the kind of rule of
thumb is, you know, if you can dent it with your, with your
thumbnail, then it's going to besafe for your dog's teeth to

(43:48):
chew on. But not every dog is going to do
super well with those types of chews.
So I think doing it while you'remonitoring, if we see something
like we're going at it, we're atrisk of like chipping a tooth,
breaking a tooth, maybe removingit for a while so we can calm
down. That's at least what I do with
my own dog because she loves herantler on occasion, but I want

(44:11):
her her to keep most of her teeth if I can help it.
So I think that's it's kind of a, a personal choice of knowing
the risk and knowing the the possibility of, you know, what
we may be getting into. But, you know, having something
for my dog to chew on for enrichment that she isn't going
to destroy and then swallow or, you know, cause issues for her

(44:36):
in another way. Yeah, I think that's there's.
There's a lot of good info therein in what you just said.
You know what, what I tell clients is I give my own dogs
antlers. I'm a huge proponent of antlers,
but I'm also very clear there's a risk for sure.
You need to understand the risk.I always equate it to the risk
of letting your child play on the, you know, monkey bars and

(44:57):
jungle gym and running and beingwild.
Could they fall and break their arm?
Absolutely. Could they flip and chip, knock
a tooth out? Absolutely.
There's a lot that could happen.You know, I make the decision
that to me that risk is worth it, especially when the risk,
it's like, but there's some risks I think are insane, right?
Like the risk of death, you know, it's like a high risk of
death. That's pretty insane, right?

(45:18):
I'm not taking that risk. But you know, the antler, the
risk of a tooth to me is worth it with my own dogs.
What do you think about, you know, I always encourage people
to size bones properly for theirdog and don't give a dog a bone
that's too small where they're chomping straight up and down at
it, but much bigger so they're kind of grinding with their back

(45:38):
teeth. How important do you think that
is with antlers? I think that's pretty.
Important. My my thing too with the
antlers, especially with the smaller pieces, always a risk of
accidentally swallowing it, ingesting it, causing a foreign
body that's going to be a big mess and that's going to make
your dog really sick. Can be very dangerous.

(45:58):
Or there's the possibility of itgetting wedged kind of between
the teeth and the top, which again, painful a big order deal
to get it corrected, all that sort of thing.
So I too am a proponent of goinga little bit bigger with those
shoes because you're decreasing the risk of, you know, large
pieces that can be swallowed. You're decreasing that risk of

(46:21):
things getting stuck in the mouth where they shouldn't.
I think the other one that I, I see a lot that kind of is a love
hate is those like filled bones are the ones that with the
circle in them dogs get them caught on their jaw and and
those sorts of things. Again, it's one of those things
of like size. So that we are eliminating as

(46:42):
many of those risks as we can. So we're decreasing risk.
It's all risk management. I feel like sure, a lot of pet
ownership is risk management because they're, they have their
own brains. They're going to do what they
want and half the time what theywant is pretty dumb.
But yeah, absolutely. So I, I, I.
Agree with you though, that thatyou know, it's all about

(47:03):
knowing, knowing the things thatcould happen and saying is this
something that I'm willing to take on and willing to fix if
the worst were to happen versus the the pros of I'm getting this
enrichment for my dog. My dog really loves it.
That sort of thing. Weighing that for for you
personally, I think it's going to be kind of a person to person
basis and that that's what I. Encourage, you know, clients to

(47:27):
do and, and I explained to them we've had, so I mean, we know we
sell antlers and it's not like for our company, huge money
maker, it's 'cause we believe inthem for dogs to have enrichment
and we find behavior issues are decreased dramatically when a
dog has enrichment day-to-day. And, but we encourage people,
you know, to do their research and understand it.
I'm not a high risk person. I'm pretty risk averse, but I

(47:51):
think through these things, you know, and, and do some research.
Another one, and this isn't as much a question for you, but
just like leaving a dog out of acrate when you're gone, that to
me, that's my goal with every dog and I get all of my own dogs
to that point. And so my goal was I don't want
my dogs and crates when they're adults.
I want them free in the house. Now, I, I take a lot of time at
it. If I have even a doubt in my

(48:11):
mind that they're going to chew a cord or ingest something, well
then I know they're not ready. So they stay in there at that
point. And when they're an adult, could
something happen with them free in the house?
Absolutely. It could for sure.
But I get comfortable with that risk because I know they're not
chewers and they don't get into things and they're good dogs.
And if I have a client who says I want to crate my dogs forever

(48:34):
because I'm just, I can't handlethat, that risk fine, right?
Like think it through and just understand it and, and it is
just a balance of risks. And so I leave antlers out for
my dogs when I'm gone. But I, my dogs are not those
kind of chewers that are like attacking an antler when they're
chewing. If I had that dog, I would, I

(48:55):
would be, I would act differently.
There would not be antlers left out of that dog who was like,
you know, purposely trying to destroy versus laying there
gently grinding on them. So you'd mentioned that earlier
to kind of monitor their chewing.
A lot of this is know your dog, and if you have a dog that is a
crazy power chewer, there's no way I'd leave an antler with

(49:16):
them. Absolutely.
And then we throw them away. Or give them to friends that
have smaller dogs when they hit that size for sure.
Because, you know, swallowing itis definitely a risk as you see
your dog like walking through the house tossing it up in their
mouth as they're chewing. Yep, that's my kiddo. 100%, I'm
constantly like, if I have to fish something out of your

(49:36):
mouth, that's it, we're done with it.
Yeah, All right. Well, why don't we move?
On I know you are a, a big proponent of spaying and
neutering and kind of thinking through that process.
So, and this is a question we get a lot and I always give
people my understanding, but I it's, you know, research changes

(49:59):
and I it's, I don't stay up on it, right.
I'm not a veterinarian. So I'm really excited to hear
what's your advice for people regarding when should they spay
and neuter? When do they spay and neuter?
What what's your advice there? Yeah, I think.
The biggest thing is, like you said, the research is kind of
constantly changing. It's an area where a lot of
research is consistently being done because it is one of those

(50:23):
hot button topics. For me personally, looking at
the current research, the pros outweigh the cons as far as
neutering, spaying and neuteringjust entirety.
I think the big portion and the where big portion of the
conversation is, is the timing of it.

(50:44):
And that's I think where a lot of the current research is kind
of being focused is when do we spay and neuter.
And the biggest thing with that right now that we're seeing is
it really depends on the size ofthe dog and the kind of growth
of, of that dog. And so if you have, you know,

(51:05):
your small little Yorkie, you'regoing to need to spay and neuter
that at a very different time than if you have of, you know, a
big German shepherd. So kind of overall my my reasons
for spaying and neutering, Obviously it's going to be, you
know, ethical breeding. We're not having, you know, kids
out there that are, that can getout and, you know, have a litter

(51:28):
accidentally oops, litter causing, you know, that maybe
Mama to have issues that litter may have issues and that sort of
thing. So obviously decreasing the
amount of animals we have, we have way too many,
unfortunately. And so I'm a real big proponent
of ethical breeding, all that good stuff.

(51:48):
The other big thing for me is it's going to decrease a lot of
their risks later on in life. And so for me, for our females
spaying our dogs, it's going to greatly, greatly reduce the risk
of mammary cancer as they age. And mammary cancer for our
intact dogs is one of the biggest things that can that can

(52:12):
take them out in the end becausemost of the time it is malignant
when we when we get to that point.
And if you can reduce that risk by spaying your dog, I think it
is hugely important we do. So quick question on that does.
The age of the the timing of thespay affect the chance of
cancer, Yes, so. As of right now, it's looking

(52:34):
like 2 1/2 years of age is kind of the sweet, sweet spot we want
to be before that 2 1/2 years ofage to really, you know, tap
into that decreased risk of thatmemory cancer later in life.
That's kind of where where we'reat right there with that and.
Waiting 2 1/2 years makes no sense for most people.

(52:56):
I mean, unless they're, they're breeding, right?
So that's a pretty easy target to hit.
Exactly. So I guess I want to get back to
size of dog because you had mentioned that for a moment.
But before we do so you had mentioned the, you know that 2
1/2 is the sweet spot. What is there an age that's too
early? So we want to do it by 2 1/2.

(53:17):
Should you wait until after? Should they go into into heat
ones or what are your thoughts on that?
So for me. For my smaller dogs, I am a huge
proponent of getting that uterusout before that first heat for
my my smaller dogs. And by smaller dogs, I mean the
ones that are gonna tap out. Less than 45 lbs is what I would
consider a small dog. When we're thinking about

(53:38):
spaying and neutering with that,typically want to do it around
six months of age. We're going to have that first
heat cycle kind of somewhere in that six, 7-8 months is
typically when we will start to see that.
I like to do it beforehand for acouple of reasons.

(53:59):
One, it's going to reduce risk while I'm actually in surgery.
Once we have that first heat cycle, our uterus becomes a
little bit more trying to think of how to say this so it doesn't
sound nasty, but it becomes, it becomes a little bit more of a
bloody procedure. That's what I'll say, which, you

(54:20):
know, obviously not going to be that big of a risk given, you
know, most veterinarians experience with it.
But personally, if I had my choice, I would much rather spay
a dog that had not gone through heat first just because it's
going to be a lot simpler, a loteasier on them, lot easier on
me, and just kind of a easier procedure all around for

(54:40):
recovery, that sort of thing. But for my larger dogs, a lot of
times I do need to go through that first heat cycle, be closer
to like a year, year and a half of age before we really want to
get in there and spay or neuter them.
Simply because those, the ovaries and our females are

(55:02):
testes and our males are going to be producing hormones that
help with growth. Specifically bone growth is the
big thing. And so with our small breed
dogs, they're going to hit theirkind of full size full
development a lot sooner than our large kiddos are going to.
And that's why we spay our little ones earlier, recommend
spaying them earlier, recommend spaying our larger kiddos a

(55:24):
little bit later on because we're able to get a little bit
more of that hormone in our bodybefore we remove it so we have
that appropriate growth. There has been, you know, some
research showing that you get even less chance of, you know,
that mammary cancer developing later in life if you get it,

(55:45):
that uterus out before that first heat.
I've also seen places where it says it doesn't really matter
that much if they go through their first heat.
So that one I think is still very much a currently being
looked at, currently being researched.
And that one I, I've kind of seen that's on either side of,
of that conversation. For me personally, my small

(56:07):
kiddos before the 1st heat, my bigger kiddos little bit later,
whether or not they've had that first heat or not, we're, you
know, still talking. Female dogs and just to sum that
up a little bit, it sounds like so with the small ones, you're
doing it before the 1st heat because there's not much value
in waiting as far as developing and goes and the procedures a

(56:28):
little bit easier before the 1stheat and maybe there's a smaller
chance of mammary cancer later on.
With the bigger ones, the risk versus reward changes where we,
you know, when you do it early, the surgery would be a little
bit easier, but they haven't hadas much time to grow and that's
more important than the risk of the surgery being harder because

(56:51):
they already went through heat absolutely good.
Description for females. You know, this is something I
always tell my clients like I I own big dogs and so I let you
know when we have a female dog, we let her, we let her go
through one cycle 1st and then spay.
And that's just what I've alwayskind of been comfortable with.
I tell people, of course, talk to your veterinarian, right?
And I don't ever really hear super strong opinions and it

(57:14):
sound on this one of like, oh, that's insane.
Don't do that. I pretty much always hear like
you could do either. And it sounds like because of
what you're saying where the research is a little bit mixed,
where it might reduce the risk of mammary cancer to do it right
before, but it might not. And it does seem to make a
pretty big difference developmentally from a a bone

(57:35):
and structure standpoint to wait.
Yeah, absolutely. And that's that's kind of where
I'm at right now too. And I think it's interesting
too, because it's different people are are hearing different
things. And even like looking at the
research that I'll see one paperthat's like, yeah, absolutely.
You need to get in there before that first heat.
And then I'll see another paper right after it.
That's like, Nah, you and wait and I'm like, OK, well, that's

(57:58):
not super helpful for me. What do I tell clients?
But based on just kind of what I've seen, yeah, I would agree
with that. For my larger kiddos, I really
do like to to wait a little bit longer, even though it's a
little bit not more complex, butyou know, there's more to deal
with when you have a bigger dog than when you have a teeny tiny
dog when you're in there and removing a uterus.

(58:19):
So that's just me personally what I've seen of the research.
I, I would, you know, talk to your specific vet too.
There are some vets that are really, really feel strongly
about it. But from what I've seen of the
research that I've looked at, there's really not a huge
difference. And I do recommend waiting to
closer to a year of age, regardless of if we've had that

(58:41):
first heat and or not. So I should have opened with.
This, none of this should be considered medical advice,
especially anything you guys hear from me.
That's definitely not medical advice.
And Haley here is not your doctor and does not know your
dog. So certainly none of this is is
medical advice. This is big picture information
to think about. Absolutely, absolutely this is.
What you bring to your vet to talk about and say, hey, I heard

(59:02):
this, I heard this chick, she says she's a vet, she said this.
What do you think? Right.
Absolutely. OK, well then why don't we
switch to male dogs? So we've been talking females.
So male dogs, when should you neuter a male dog?
Great question too. So.
With that, I would say it's kindof a similar conversation to to
with our females of you know smaller dogs.

(59:25):
If we are going to neuter smaller dogs towards that six
months of age, larger dogs, I like to wait a little bit.
Again, that same reason that development there typically with
my intact dogs. The the biggest thing is we're
reducing our risk of developing prostatic hypertrophy, enlarged

(59:50):
prostate and prostatic cancer when we are removing our testes.
Obviously also testicular cancer, but that's pretty rare.
So that's really not even in my conversation most of the time.
But prostatic cancer is going tobe the big one for me again.
They, they don't really have a, a mark for that sweet spot there
as far as the, the cancer formation as far as I know.

(01:00:14):
I think that's also probably about two years of age if I had
to had to guess. But with the prostatic
hypertrophy, it's not malignant,but it causes, it can cause a
lot of issues. Basically that prostate becomes
very enlarged kind of pressing on the structures around it,
which can cause a number of issues.
The good thing with that though is if if we do have prostatic

(01:00:35):
hypertrophy in an intact dog, a lot of the times if we neuter
the dog that will start to correct itself regardless of the
age of the neuter, but a lot easier if you don't have to
correct it in the first place. And so that's one reason I, I
really do recommend neutering our, our dogs as well.
The other thing is, you know, obviously with an intact male,

(01:00:58):
you do have that increased testosterone production.
And that doesn't necessarily mean your dog is going to have
behavioral issues, but with thatincreased testosterone
production, you have a slightly increased risk of having some
behavioral issues due to how that testosterone can make them
behave and act. I always, always caveat this

(01:01:20):
when people come to me and they're like, I need to neuter
my dog. He's marking on everything, he's
humping everything, insight, allthis stuff.
And I say, you know, sometimes the neuter doesn't fix that.
Sometimes it's not just testosterone.
Sometimes it is just a learned behavior and even if we do
neuter, it takes testosterone time to get out of the body.
So that's always one thing I like to talk about when people

(01:01:41):
come to me for behavioral neuterquick fixes.
It's not, that's not the case, unfortunately.
But knowing that, you know, we can have those marking
behaviors, we can have those humping behaviors, that sort of
thing with that testosterone production.
If we remove that that production earlier on in life,
we won't have those, those behaviors develop as frequently.

(01:02:05):
So those are some things to consider when when thinking
about about neutering. And it's also very similar to
our female dogs, our small breeddogs six months of age is
typically when I, when I like toget in there and, and remove
those testicles. And then larger breed dogs, I
like to wait closer to a year, year and a half of age to make
sure we have that full, that full development and growth of

(01:02:26):
those, those bones and muscular structures.
Couple of things to touch on. There, you know, you had
mentioned you don't see it beinga quick fix.
And you know what I what I tell clients is I'm a huge believer
every, every male dog should be neutered.
In my opinion. It's a question of timing, which
we can keep talking about, but I've never had a client neuter
their dog and then say, Oh my gosh, everything's fixed.

(01:02:48):
And now he's just like completely perfect.
So I tell people, you need to temper your expectations.
It's part of the puzzle, but you're not going to do it and be
like, Oh my gosh, I'm so glad I did that.
Now he's just like the best dog ever.
It doesn't work like that. Now.
Maybe there's someone out there who did that.
And it just like, was this magicfix?
But it's a part of the puzzle. And the testosterone, you know,

(01:03:11):
takes a while to no longer be inthe system as well.
But. Right, so.
You know, you had mentioned age,you know, bigger dog, you know,
one maybe, you know, 18 months somewhere in that range.
You know, I get it's generally male clients who say they don't
want to neuter their male dog, you know, for me and they're

(01:03:32):
like, I just can't do that to them.
That what I explained to them is, I mean, do your research and
talk to your vet about the risksfrom a, you know, cancer stamp
and all these other things. But just think through, you're a
man. You probably have the urge to
procreate, right? And imagine never, ever, ever,
ever being able to feel fulfill that urge in any way, shape or

(01:03:53):
form. And you can just, you know,
think through, you know, think through that for a few minutes.
So imagine you can never, ever, ever do anything about it.
That would kind of suck, right? And they're like, yeah, it would
like, imagine your dog keeping his testicles and he's got that
flowing through him and he's never allowed to act on it.
Does that seem like a nice thingfor your dog?

(01:04:15):
And they're like, well, no, not really.
And like, like, OK, so I think you should think through this.
And it's, you're like, I understand you're wanting to
keep them in tact because you feel like it's nicer.
But when you think it through, it doesn't seem very nice to me.
And that, you know, that argument usually kind of sways
people when they start to realize like, oh, yeah, he's not
like, you know, he's not a stud dog going out there every day,

(01:04:37):
right? I may steal that.
One, that one's really good. I like that point of view.
That's pretty great. You know it tends to work.
Work well and we're huge believers.
I'm like, I just I don't see thereason to not neuter a dog now
the age thing I get so I'm a bigbeliever.
You know, we we advocate for notneutering a male dog, especially
a bigger dog, you know, 18 months being the goal.

(01:05:00):
But when the behavior gets to a point that you think it needs
done, then do it. And I had a mastiff mix I
rescued, you know years ago. He since has passed away.
He's a big dog and we neutered him.
I don't know, let's say 12-14 months somewhere in that age
because all all of a sudden he hit a point where was like we
got a neuter this dog he couldn't be around female dogs
anymore. It was like all he could do and

(01:05:22):
like was just mount and we'd pull him off and he'd, like,
slick his ears back, like, I'm sorry.
And you'd let him go and he's like right back on him again.
Like, all right, buddy, we're making the appointment.
And, you know, is could it have been better if we'd waited three
more months? Maybe.
But everything I've always heard, there's no like, set
answer of 12 versus 14 versus 16months.

(01:05:45):
That's going to make this major difference.
So when you hit an issue with behavior, maybe now is the time.
Yeah. And I think that would be.
You know, a good way of looking at it, especially for our, our
bigger dogs, 'cause they are, they're growing for so long and
we want to make sure we're, we're supporting that growth as
long as, as we can so that they do have, you know, appropriate

(01:06:07):
joints and appropriate musculoskeletal structures so we
don't run into issues later in life.
So, no, I love, I love that point of view.
And I think, yeah, aiming for that, that 18 months kind of as
a, as a goal for our bigger dogsis kind of what I tend to go
towards at least a year. But you know, I was just

(01:06:29):
thinking we have a, a Dane that's about to get, about to
get neutered and we're pushing it as long as we possibly could
because we wanted him to just have as much growth as he could
before we we got in there. And and how old is he roughly?
He. Is going to be 14 months I
believe when we do his neuter. Cool.
So I'm assuming you probably getpushback sometimes from people

(01:06:52):
whose breeder said they want himto wait this really, really long
time 'cause I know I hear that where the Breeders, I mean, it's
like 24 months. It's, you know, it, it, it can
be, you know, pretty old. Is that something you hear
frequently? Yes.
Lots of opinions from breeders that are interesting that come,

(01:07:13):
that come through my, my clinic.But I have seen a lot of
breeders either I've had, I've seen a lot recently too, of
breeders signing a having them sign something that they won't
ever spay or neuter their their particular animal, but they also
won't breed them within that same contract.
And that to me is just silly andso stupid that that we would

(01:07:40):
have that that conversation of, of they need to keep their
reproductive organs when I really do not see in the
research a reason to keep them. Unless you are actively breeding
your animal and doing it in an ethical way, there's no reason
for it. It is.

(01:08:00):
It really is just that conversation of, of when, when
to spay and neuter. And again, talk to your
individual veterinarian, they'regoing to be able to work with
you and your individual dog better than just kind of the
general guidelines. And there's a bunch of different
reasons why you would spay earlier or spay later or
whatever it is. And so just working with that on

(01:08:22):
an individual basis, but it's a general guideline.
Yeah, I, I like six months is myminimum.
I think anything before that yourun into issues of of growth
issues even with our small breeddogs.
So six months is the minimum andthen I like to do it around a
year for my bigger kids or a year and a half, you know those

(01:08:42):
breeder. Contracts, some of them are
wacky and and I understand for, you know, we've got, I know a
lot of breeders that listen to the show.
I understand when it's one to protect, like, you know, you
can't breed the dog right, because then that makes it
pretty hard for them to continueto line And you know, there,
there's a lot of real issues there.
I, I get that for sure. I recently we trained a dog who

(01:09:06):
came from a breeder and the contract said they could never
remove them from the certain brand of food And it was just
crap. It was multi level marketing,
just dog crap food. And you know, so my advice to
the client was you, you need to think this through, but it's bad
food. So do your research on the food,

(01:09:27):
right? I, I'm not a doctor or a
nutritionist. Do your research as you're going
to see it's bad food at this point.
What is that contract giving youlike that your dog, if it gets
sick later on, the breeder will do what?
Take the dog back and give you anew one.
Are you going to give your dog back?
If your dog is sick at 2, are you going to give them back to

(01:09:49):
that breeder and be like, all right, give me a new puppy?
Probably not, right? So what is that contract really
giving you? I know for me, I'm not gonna
like, I mean, I guess I wouldn'thave signed that contract, but
people don't know that going into it.
They probably didn't even read the contract or the Breeders
like, hey, this is really good food.
You know, you should keep your dog out.
They're like, Oh yeah, obviously, why would I want my

(01:10:09):
dog not on really good food? So I told him, do your research,
think it through. And they end up making the
decision to put them on actuallygood food.
And dog was having all these bowel issues.
It was a nightmare. And lo and behold, they
disappeared. And I did not, you know, I gave
recommendations of different brands to look at and they
chose, you know, a really good food.

(01:10:30):
I think they moved to Stella andChuy's dehydrated raw food.
And they've been so happy. And all the battle issues just
like, magically disappeared. So some of those contracts drive
me nuts where when I see it, I'mlike, this is doesn't appear to
be in the dog's best interest atall.
And I know a lot of those contracts probably do come from

(01:10:53):
people being, you know, there's a reason all those things were
written in there. Like, I don't know what the
reason was, but there's definitely a reason that that,
you know, half of those things are, are, are in there.
Something's happened or they've heard something or or whatever.
It is my biggest thing, especially when it comes to vet
recommendations when it comes tonutrition like you were talking

(01:11:13):
about, or my big thing that I see all the time is vaccine
requirements from the Breeders. Sometimes I get some that, you
know, I, I had one that came through that had vaccine
requirements from, from the breeder for this contract.
But I looked through it all and I was like, this makes sense.
Like this I'm OK with because this still follows all the

(01:11:34):
vaccine protocols. They just wanted everything
spaced out a little bit more andI was like, that's fine.
That's great. Works for me.
I'm happy to work through something like that, but I'll
get clients in where they'll say, oh, you can't vaccinate
against this entirely. You can't vaccinate against
lepto, you can't vaccinate against, you know, whatever it
is. And those are really, really

(01:11:58):
dangerous. And I think, you know, if you
know, we do have breeders listening who do have those
contracts, have a vet look over those contracts and say, does
this make sense for the health and safety of a dog and making
sure that we're not just saying,oh, well, we can't have, you
know, lepto. That's the one I see all the
time. Lepto we can't give to to that

(01:12:22):
dog because one dog had a reaction to it one time.
I think knowing that, you know, if you had the dog react to it,
letting your owners know, hey, adog from this litter had a
reaction to this vaccine, let your vet know before they give
this vaccine. That is a whole lot different
than just never give that vaccine.

(01:12:43):
And so I think having having breeders understand that a
little bit more too of, you know, we don't make those
recommendations just to make us money or have them come in and
see whatever it is we're doing that because those are the
recommendations for the health and safety of the pet.
And it and the breeder recommendation goes completely
against that. It makes me wonder, like, did we

(01:13:04):
ever have a vet involved to havethat conversation and make sure
that we're still providing good care for this, for this, for
this kiddo who who needs their vaccines or needs appropriate
nutrition. Whatever it is, it's there's
all. Kinds of stuff out there and it
is amazing the stuff I've seen and heard, you know, from
breeders over the years, you know, you know, pros and cons

(01:13:26):
and, but there's also, you know,some vets that are much better
than other vets. And there's, I mean, same with
trainers, right? There's crazy trainers out
there. So there's going to be people
that are giving advice that's not great.
So, you know, I encourage everyone and we've got an, A
video, so a podcast episode on how to choose the right
veterinarian for you. And a lot of that is talking to

(01:13:49):
the person and, you know, getting to know them right and
to see are they on the same pageas you?
Like there's, you know, some, some veterinarians that are much
more risk averse and there's some that are, you know, I don't
want to say riskier, but like not as risk averse.
And there's, you know, there's, there's a lot of different
personality types out there and there's nothing wrong with
meeting a couple veterinarians to find the one that's either

(01:14:12):
fit with you or for you. We recommend the same for
trainers. You know, if you don't mesh with
someone, then they're probably not the person for you.
So find someone you do mesh withand that you can have good
conversations with that are productive and are moving the
ball forward and you're both, you know, communicating with
each other Well, absolutely. And I.
Think that's a big thing too when looking for vets is

(01:14:33):
deciding what kind of of medicine you agree with and you
will would want to work with. I've had, you know, I, I
personally am very interested inholistic medicine, kind of hand
in hand with the traditional medicine and exploring both of
those sides. So when I have those clients
that come to me, they're like, hey, what if we tried XYZ

(01:14:56):
supplement or do we know anything about acupuncture, you
know, whatever. And looking into those things,
I'm super supportive of that. I know there's a lot of vets out
there who really hate that sort of thing.
So if you're someone who's really into the whole holistic
thing, talk with your vet about it.
See if they're really, you know,interested in it or if they have
any resources towards it. And if they don't, maybe looking
into a more holistic medicine approach or somebody that will

(01:15:19):
bring that in. Yeah, I think it's super
important to work with your vet.That's the whole point.
To me at least, a vet Med is to work with the owner for the care
of the pet. I, I know a lot of people, you
know, get into vet medicine. There's like a saying like vet
Med cuz humans are gross or whatever it is.
And I'm like, y'all, y'all, I kind of missing the point.

(01:15:40):
Like a lot of vet Med is workingwith humans for the pets.
But yeah, I think, yeah, that's super important of, of finding
someone that you, you mesh well with that works well with you
that you can ask those questionsto and have those conversations.
Super important. You know what?
It's interesting. You said that about, you know,
the holistic and being open to talking about different things

(01:16:01):
because one of my pieces of advice when people are looking
for a veterinarian is I have seen that generally speaking,
older vets tend to sometimes be more flexible than some of the
younger vets. And you're obviously young where
I feel like some of the young vets come out of school and it's
like they just learned something.
So they're like, this is the wayit is.

(01:16:21):
And it doesn't mean they're not great doctors, doesn't mean they
don't have a ton of knowledge tohelp your dog.
But I've seen sometimes, you know, a vet that's in their 50s
is like, yeah, no, try that supplement.
I think that'd be, you know, great to try.
There's no downside to it. And I've seen sometimes younger
vets are more like, very strict because they're following what
they were just taught. So I thought was interesting to

(01:16:42):
hear, you know, from you, you know, very flexible on trying
some of that. Yeah, some holistic stuff and
just seeing if it works. Yeah, absolutely.
And I, I totally get where, you know, a lot of those young vets
too are coming from. I mean, I still to this day, I'm
like terrified that I'm going toget something wrong or, you

(01:17:03):
know, my, my medicine's going tobe wrong.
I think every vet has a little bit of that fear in the back of
their heads. And so, you know, I have a
feeling that's why we have so many vets that are like by the
book, because if we're by the book and we're doing it right,
you know, but that's the whole thing is you're practicing
medicine. Medicine is always growing, it's

(01:17:23):
always changing. You're always practicing.
So you get better and better. And I think incorporating as
many tools in your toolbox as you can is super important in
that as a veterinarian, as a petowner, to know all the things
that could work for your dog andall the options you have out
there and figuring out what works best for you.
That's one thing I say to my clients all the time is I, I can

(01:17:46):
work with you. I can work with your dog.
It's your dog. You're going to know that dog
better than anyone else in this world and you're going to be the
one that makes the decisions foryour dog like that is your dog.
And so I can assist in those decision makings.
I can give you my advice, I can give you my expertise, but
ultimately, you're the one that knows your dog the best and take

(01:18:07):
what you know, what you've learned, what you're
researching, who you're talking to, and use what you can to give
your dog the best possible life.So let's move on.
When you and I were chatting theother day, you had mentioned
heartworm. And I guess just so to throw
this out there, you know, there's a lot of things with,
you know, dogs that are optionaland there's a lot that are not.

(01:18:30):
So I would consider rabies distemper parvo to not be
optional In my mind. I would consider lepto vaccines
to not be optional. I know my dogs are high risk for
lepto. They're outside, we're busy,
we're hiking. I consider the Bordetella or
kennel cough vaccine, in my opinion, to be very much
optional. I don't get it for my dogs.

(01:18:51):
I don't like. I don't try to talk anybody else
out of getting it. That's entirely your call.
Talk to your veterinarian and ifthey say your trainer is a
moron, get it then then get it. Like it's, but you know, I don't
for mine, you know, heartworm medicine I don't consider to be
optional. And I was, I, I found it very
interesting the other day when you were telling me that there

(01:19:14):
are many people now that do consider it or maybe not many,
but there are people that consider it optional.
So walk me through that because when you told me that I was
like, well, let's just end this conversation and talk on the
podcast because I have so many questions.
What's up with that? Because heartworm obviously is,
is deadly. So I think everyone listening
probably knows that heartworms, Bordetella could be deadly.

(01:19:35):
Very unlikely with a healthy dog.
Like if your dog gets kennel cough, they're probably not
dying. They might not even have
symptoms or they have minor ones.
But heartworm's a big deal. So walk me through what's what's
the deal with people not wantingto do heartworm medicine or why
aren't they? Well, I.
Think the long and short of it is I don't know that people
understand the severity of heartworm disease.

(01:19:57):
I feel like people who are in the dog industry, whether that's
breeders, trainers, that's whoever understand how deadly it
is and how it's, you know, that one mosquito one time can kill a
dog and and even if it doesn't kill them, it's all.
Horrible process to treat heartworm disease.

(01:20:19):
Just horrific. I hate doing it.
I mean, I love doing it because it means we get to save the dog,
but I hate doing it 'cause it's just, it puts them through so
much that I don't think anyone that that works with dogs on a
regular basis would ever think heartworm prevention is
optional. I'm finding more and more people
don't understand that it's that bad or that they don't

(01:20:41):
understand how it's contracted. That's another big thing.
I had people, you know, say, well, my dog's not around other
dogs so he doesn't need heartworm prevention.
I was like, that's not actually how that works.
Let's talk about how we actuallyget heartworms and then let's
have that conversation again. So I think that's a big thing.
I think it's also a lot of it can be financial restrictions.

(01:21:02):
It can get pricey, but I think it's important to know that
that's a cost associated with owning a dog.
And you should know that before going into owning a dog.
You know, there's so many options out there now too for
heartworm prevention. There's really no excuse.
There are cheaper alternatives that, you know, are out there

(01:21:26):
that are available. And it's so vitally important
that we get every single dog on heartworm prevention every
single time because it is such adeadly disease.
It, it, it does, it baffles me that that people will decline
it. I even had, you know, yesterday

(01:21:47):
while I was at work, I had, I had a client decline it for both
of their dogs because they don'tgo, they don't go outside.
And I was like, do your dogs urinate in your house?
And he was like, no. And I was like, then your dog
goes outside. So.
So after you told me this, I. Did a little bit of research,
like, you know, 10 minutes of research, you know, you can

(01:22:08):
always find what you want to hear on Google, right?
Like, so like why should I not give my dog heartburn medicine
or whatever? And there's these sites talking
about the, you know, the risk ofheartburn medicine.
And I get that there be risk with medicine.
I mean, any medicine has side effects, of course.
And one thing they had mentionedwas that, I mean, they were
proponents of this isn't a veterinarian.
This is just I, I don't know whothey are, but someone saying

(01:22:31):
this and they were saying, you know, just get your dog tested
more for heartworm. So rather than, you know, being
on the medicine test them more often.
And I, I, I, you know, I didn't do a lot of research.
How quickly does heartworm develop?
So you mentioned earlier mosquito bites your dog and now
it's, you know, in their blood and then, you know, finds its

(01:22:51):
way to their heart. How often are, are, are these
people testing their dog if they're relying on testing to
catch it before it's too late? Right I.
Will say it depends on the test would be kind of the first
thing. But in general, the SNAP test
that we use in most clinics can take up to six months of the dog

(01:23:14):
being infected before we're actually going to see a true
positive response on those tests.
So even if we are testing monthly, your dog could still
have had heartworm disease for three, 4-5 months before it even
shows up positive on that test that we're due.
And how big of a deal is? That to have it for 3-4 or five

(01:23:37):
months can be pretty significant.
It is a disease that progresses very quickly.
It is a disease that affects theheart in the long term,
regardless of the survival status of the dog.
I mean, your dog quite literallyhas worms in its heart.
Like, that's gonna make some major changes.
It's going to change the muscular structure of that

(01:24:00):
heart. That heart is not gonna work as
efficiently for the rest of the dog's life.
You know, even if a dog gets heartworm disease, you can treat
it. Even if you treat it early,
there are going to be enough long term side effects that the
life expectancy of that dog is going to be affected no matter
what you do. So for me, yes, there can be

(01:24:21):
side effects to heartworm treatments or heartworm
prevention. I will say, you know, some of
the scary ones are, you know, you see a lot and I've heard a
lot about seizure activity. And I will say, you know, with
that, there are certain dogs with a certain gene that really
need to be careful with what medications they're on because

(01:24:42):
of the way that gene causes, youknow, science stuff, blood,
brain barrier, all that good stuff can cause those seizure
events. You got to be careful of that.
Your vet's going to know about that.
Your vet's going to know if yourdog is one of the dogs that may
have that gene. And, hey, maybe we should test
for that gene. Maybe we should look at that.
Yeah. When you say that gene, is this

(01:25:03):
breed specific? Yes, so the.
MDR one is the gene in particular I'm talking about.
We typically see it in like our collies.
We can occasionally see it in like Ozzies, but kind of like
like the herding breed types have that MDR 1 gene or if they
can have have a higher risk for it and that gene basically

(01:25:24):
effects how things are going to cross our blood brain barrier.
And one of those things is the medications that are in some
heartworm prevention. I will say the vast majority of
the heartworm preventions that are commercially available have
realized that this gene is a thing for a lot of dogs and have

(01:25:47):
switched a medication that won'taffect these dogs anymore.
But there are still, and a lot of them are the the ones that
are a little bit more affordablenow because there has been such
a push away from from ivermectinand not in particular into more
of the drugs that are going to be safe for those dogs.
But some of the cheaper alternatives can still have

(01:26:10):
those particular medications that can be dangerous for those
MDR one dogs. If you think your dog kind of
fits into that herding breed, you're worried about it, ask
them about it. They'll let you know what
medications are safe versus not.There's been a lot of research
into this because it was so dangerous for those dogs that
there are so many safe options out there that yes, we can have

(01:26:32):
those bad side effects, yes, we can have those bad reactions,
but they're becoming more and more uncommon, rare that we're
seeing those that the, for me, pros far, far out outweigh the
the relatively minor risks of those effects happening.
So I mean is that? Something you think every

(01:26:53):
veterinarian is very well versedin, The idea that there's some
heartworm medicines that are safer for particular breeds.
I do. At least to me, there's, it's
been such a hot button topic in the last couple of years,
heartworm prevention in particular.
And I know for me, me at least agood chunk of my, my education

(01:27:14):
around heartworm prevention was about these, these dogs, Hey, we
need to be careful here because these are the medications we use
for parasite prevention in general that can be dangerous
for these dogs. Obviously there's other
medications and that sort of thing that can, that can be put
those dogs at risk. But you know, with that that
gene and knowing about that geneand seeing a dog and being like,

(01:27:37):
hey, we might have that, we should consider it.
I think a lot, lot of veterinarians are going to are
going to know, you know, hair herding breeds.
Maybe let's consider the possibility of an MDR 1 issue
and address that early before it'cause it can cause a problem.
So for everyone listening. That is maybe thinking right now

(01:27:57):
like, oh crap, I think my dog qualifies as a herding breed and
I don't know if they're on the good one or the bad one.
What would you suggest? I mean, obviously talk to your
veterinarian, but if they're wondering right now, what do you
what would you Google MDR one breed?
Sure. What would you type in I?
Would say just to look. Let me look and see if I can

(01:28:18):
find the the VCA animal hospitals always has a great
resource options. I like directing clients there a
lot. They have a lot of great
articles about, you know those big kind of topics like that.
So that one has has some great information about it.

(01:28:43):
You know, Cornell has a lot of information about it on their
website. As far as what that drug
sensitivity looks like. I think the biggest thing is
talk to your vet is going to be the big thing.
If you are concerned about it, you have questions about it, I
would talk to your vet about, you know, the potential of
genetic testing. Even if it's not like

(01:29:04):
specifically for MDR one, doing a genetic test can help screen
for that to see if you know, Hey, we may be at risk and to,
you know, if we are, you know, maybe at risk, we know, hey,
let's just avoid those drugs. If you wanted to know more, they
do have specific tests for genetic tests specifically for

(01:29:25):
that, but typically don't reallyuse those a ton unless, you
know, I know there's probably anissue, but you have those
options of of looking at that, those websites to get a little
bit more information about it. What kind of medication
medication should we be avoiding?
You know, should I look into doing a genetic test for my dog

(01:29:45):
and, and kind of a jumping off point for your conversation with
your veterinarian about that? I just know there's a lot of
people. If it was me, I'd be like, I
can't wait to get my vet on the phone.
I'm sure they're busy. Like I need to know right now.
So I think those are some good resources.
VCA is a huge group, so they're I'm sure going to have a lot on
there. Yeah, they have.
They have. Good stuff, good stuff.
I love the their website. All right.

(01:30:07):
Well, I think we've. Probably covered all we have
time for today and we have so many more things we could talk
about. You know, all of you listening.
If you have more things you wantto see covered, drop a comment.
You know, let us know because there's we didn't get into food.
We didn't get into so many different things that we could
have. But you know, we would have
ended up being here all day. So any last things you want to

(01:30:28):
toss out there? No, I think, I think.
The just cannot stress the importance enough of like if you
have questions talk to your vet.I know you know, at least for
me. I know a vast majority of my
colleagues like we want to answer these questions, we want
to have these conversations because it shows you care about
your dog and we love when you care about your dog like that.

(01:30:52):
And we can be a part of that care and we can really partner
in that. So if you have questions, reach
out to your veterinarian, you know, when we're looking at
resources, making sure that they're, you know, by a vet or
through, you know, associated with veterinarians when you're
getting your information as far as the health of your pet.

(01:31:13):
And if you do have questions, your vet is going to be your
your touchstone for that. Well, thank you very.
Much so everyone, if you want tolearn more about Doctor Haley
Gammons, we'll put some information in the description
of the video. And if you're in, you know,
Middle Tennessee and you're looking for a veterinarian, you
know who to call. Yeah.

(01:31:34):
Absolutely. Well, thank you for having me.
This has been so much fun. Yeah, absolutely.
Thanks for taking the. Time out of your busy schedule.
Appreciate it. Absolutely.

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