The Importance of ENERGY in Dog Training

In this conversation, the hosts discuss the nuances of energy in dog training, emphasizing its critical role in establishing effective communication and training methods. They explore the differences between using treats and praise, the importance of reading a dog's energy, and how to tailor training approaches to individual dogs' needs. The discussion also touches on the significance of energy levels in creating a strong bond between trainers and dogs, and how understanding these dynamics can lead to more successful training outcomes.

Episode Transcript

(00:00):
Do you guys realize this is our first time filming in the
morning? I do.
Yeah, we filled one at night andthen typically in the afternoon.
I thought the last one was weirdbecause it was like noon and I'm
used to to filming later at night so I just assumed it was
later at night and then I realized the night before that
like wait a second, we're doing that at noon.

(00:24):
Yeah, and today, 8:00 AM on a Saturday.
Nonetheless, this is pretty big deal.
I feel productive. I haven't done anything yet, but
I feel productive. I I like little lighting in your
room. It's different is it?
Does the morning help you have morning sunlight?
Now, cuz like my window, my actual window is here and I

(00:46):
guess like there's a fill light cuz it's bouncing off of my
neighbor's house back into the window.
But the the sun is actually out that way.
But I think what happens is because I don't have all the
studio lights on, it doesn't have to compensate for me being
the brightest and the rest of the room being dark.
Looks vunderbar. I like it.
Vunderbar. Not sure if that's a real word,

(01:08):
but let's talk breakfast. What'd you guys eat?
Cereal. And what kind of cereal?
I'm not surprised you had cereal, but what kind?
Well, I don't remember what it'scalled.
Taylor's trying to. Get called Captain Crunch stuff.
Just say it. It's a.
Knock off of Honey Bunches of Oats.
Oh wow, that's very adult. Yeah.

(01:28):
I thought for sure it was Count Chocolate or Captain Crunch.
There was. I figured for sure there was a
like a character it would be. Cinnamon Toast crunch if it
wasn't if it wasn't the adult stuff, it would be Cinnamon
Toast Crunch for sure. Vloss.
I had my standard breakfast which I can give you the full
rundown on it if you want, but it's pretty much every morning

(01:49):
so. How long is the rundown going to
take? I don't know, under a minute
probably. I mean, it's not like I'm doing
something crazy. I'm.
Over no. You've been hyping it up so, so
much here, I don't think. I hyped it at all.
It's just what I do every singlemorning.
I'm just shocked it could be over a minute.
What kind of rundown would this be?
Fine, start the rundown. If it gets over a minute.

(02:11):
We're we're muting. It might be.
Definitely not over a minute. So I do have cereal.
Much like Nelson. I have bran flakes, generally
off brand. Can't afford the Wheaties Then I
have avocado toast with quite a bit of cayenne pepper on it and
I finished that off with some grapefruit juice with my micro

(02:33):
dose of creatine in it. So that is my every single
morning breakfast. Wow, that's a lot of stuff.
Juice. That's crazy.
Is it crazy? Oh yeah, one.
I mean, it tastes. Horrible, but it is nasty.
I don't think I've ever seen anyone enjoyed enough to just
drink the juice and instead they're just trying to eat their

(02:54):
half of a grapefruit. Covered covered in sugar.
Usually when you get. Old and you're trying to be
healthy. These are the types of things
that you end up doing. That's pretty intense.
I want to what about you That I shave my all, like all my facial
hair off again to look younger. Like there's a stage that men go

(03:17):
through where when you're young,you grow it out and then you
shave it to be younger, and thenwhen you're old you don't care
anymore. You're almost there.
I'm almost there, yeah. All right, Kevi, let's hear
yours. Mine is much like my everyday
breakfast. I had two eggs fried with beans
and Brussels sprouts. Are you British?

(03:40):
I mean, the Brussels sprouts thing throws a a pretty big
wrench in that. But are you British?
I don't know. I heard maybe like a year ago
that you got, are you familiar with the Blue Zones?
I feel like we've talked about them.
Nelson, right. No, no, I know.
The Blue Zones? Yeah, the blue.
Zones are are areas where peopleare statistically much, much

(04:00):
more likely to live to be 100 and not like a little bit more
likely, way more likely. And I listened to like a 2 hour
podcast on it and there's some similarities between all of
them, but one is they all eat a lot of beans.
And I like beans. And I was like, well, I guess I
should eat more beans if if I already like them.
And, and there's no saying that that's actually the causation,

(04:22):
right? It could be just correlated, but
it seems pretty coincidental that literally every single one
of those societies eats a lot ofbeans.
So we upped our beans game. So like Latin people are make
out the majority of the blue area then or the Blue Zone?
I don't. Well, there's, I mean, I know, I
know there's a few like in Spain, a lot of them are along
the coast. They also eat.

(04:43):
A lot of the sea it's the sea isthe biggest correlating
correlating factor from what I've.
Beans and fish seem to be a big thing.
Well, I eat a lot of beans, but I I don't eat a lot of fish, so
I'm dying you. Need to help it.
All right, today we're talking about energy.
Energy's role and dog training, right?

(05:06):
Yes, exactly. And since we're talking energy,
Nelson, go ahead and plug your energy drink.
And we know you have it. We already saw it.
That was a really slick Segway. This is my everyday energy drink
that I keep a strict ritual on. It's the cherry limeade ghost.
Once again, the actual drink. Itself is not the everyday you

(05:30):
know that could change up, but an energy drink at or two or
three everyday seems realistic. So are we the only idiots in the
world that instead of going to like our vendors and suppliers
and contacts and saying, hey, doyou want to run ads on our show,
we just plug products for free randomly on a on a weekly basis?

(05:53):
I think we're doing it wrong. That makes us more authentic.
OK, that's the important part. We haven't sold out.
Yeah, we haven't sold out yet. All right, Well, energy and dog
training, this is a big topic for me.
It's something I'm always interested in and it's something
that I think is hard to convey in short videos or to convey in

(06:18):
lessons and to teach to clients.It takes a lot of work to teach
someone about energy and I I think I'll just open with very
often I have seen energy as whatseparates a mediocre or a shitty
trainer from a great trainer. And when I say energy, I don't
mean like just hyped up like excitable energy, but being able

(06:40):
to read a dog's energy but also to give off the right energy for
the situation makes such a difference.
And there's so many ways we could go here.
But for everyone listening, I dothink it's that important.
It really is what separates a lot of trainers and just to kind
of frame the conversation, one of the biggest impacts this has

(07:00):
on my training is this is one ofthe reasons I use praise instead
of treats. You know, very, very often and a
lot of times people say things being it's like, well, you
always have praise, you don't always have treats.
There's other reasons too that are valid, but energy is the
biggest one. If you can control a dog and
motivate a dog with energy and tone and voice, you have such a

(07:24):
strong relationship and such a strong training bond.
If you're using treats, it doesn't mean it's bad, but
there's definitely a reliance there.
So that's my opening cell though.
Thoughts. Like I said, I certainly agree.
I definitely do think that energy is the most important

(07:45):
factor in training. And to go the other way, it's
also, you know, like, I guess it's not even going the other
way because you mentioned it too.
It's reading energy and making sure that you're giving off the
proper energy. But that excitable energy can
screw a lot of your training just as much as, you know, not
having enough. And so really being able to read

(08:06):
what the dog needs and what willhelp the dog out quite a bit and
in any situation is going to up your game quite a bit.
That's a good point. Can you give us one quick
example of I was talking about using energy in a in a good way,
right? Like to to motivate the dog or
control the dog or get their attention.
Give us a time that too much energy would be bad.

(08:31):
Kind of right off the top of is nervous dogs.
If you have a very nervous dog and you, you want to have enough
energy to kind of keep them going with you and keep them
interested, But it's so easy to go over the top and then start
to scare that dog or get them tobail out and that kind of thing.

(08:51):
Sometimes when we're when we're working with more nervous dogs,
not only do we have to be concerned with with us, but also
everyone in the room. You know, if if you have someone
who's just, Oh my goodness, lookat the dog and like, oh, he
said, look at how great he did. And then the dog is now way too
focused on that person and can'tactually focus on the training

(09:13):
because they're nervous. You know, again, that makes it
much harder for the dog because it just means we have to train.
It's a longer session or even meeting people, you know,
meeting. If you have a more nervous dog
and you meet a super excitable person, that might not go well.
They might be more reactive or more just kind of responding to

(09:35):
the energy that that person is bringing into the situation.
That is something we should definitely circle back to.
I feel like later in the episodetalking about meeting new dogs
and using the right energy. So I I think I mean that is
that's huge. And you know how those people
always say like something about you, you're a dog trainer and

(09:56):
he's just better with you for sure.
I'm not looking at him or talking to him right now and I'm
focused on you and I've put zeroenergy on the dog.
So nothing to do with being a dog trainer.
It's knowing dog behavior, whichI guess maybe has something to
do with being a dog trainer, butall right.
I. Think it's, I think in comparing

(10:17):
what Nelson was just talking about to what you opened with
Covey, there's something that can be very confusing to a lot
of people out there about talking about energy with dogs.
Nelson pretty much focused in onexcitement.
You know, everything he was talking about was excited
energy, whereas at the beginningyou sort of alluded to the fact
that there's different types of energies and you have to use the

(10:39):
right energy for the right dog. So I think it's important to
sort of talk about what are the different types of energies,
right, that you can put out there and how do you determine
what's the right energy for the right dog?
It's not all just excitement, right?
Or is it? I don't know.
Yeah, so let's start. Excitement's the easy one, but
it's also the one I want to spend.

(11:00):
Well, it's easy to understand, but it's not easy to do.
And I I want to spend some time there today.
Excitement we're using a lot forthe come command, but also heel
turns, making a right turn or you know, in a way an about turn
from the dog, like that's an outside turn, whatever you want
to call it. The right energy makes a huge
difference, especially if the dog is reactive to other dogs

(11:22):
or, you know, focused on something else besides you.
So that one I think is pretty obvious for people, a calm
energy. And I think this is what Nelson
was starting to get at earlier. I've got a golden retriever that
I'm training right now that's staying with me.
Just got him yesterday and he's a nice dog, but he's wild.
And when we do sit stay, he needs calm energy in that sit,

(11:46):
stay. If you're training this dog with
excitement, I mean, he's alreadyat like a 9.9 on his own.
So if you tell him sit and he does and you say, yes, my boy,
he's like up and freaking out with excitement and happiness.
So his praise and you know, needs to be good.
Easy boy. Like everything, the tone you're

(12:06):
using, the energy you're puttingoff, all of it has to be calm or
he's going to freak out with excitement.
And through time, he'll learn tohandle more excitement, but he's
not there yet. Then I would say there's also
different energy. There's like this stern energy.
And you know, everyone explains this differently.
A lot of our trainers explain itas like channel your mom voice
or your dad voice. And this is if your dog is doing

(12:29):
something naughty. The difference between nobody
and no with direct eye contact and walking towards them, dogs
can feel energy. And I always show that to
clients if they if, especially if they think like that energy
sounds like kind of woo woo craziness.
Yeah, for sure. I'll show them the difference.
Like you can feel the difference.
Someone doesn't have to say I'm happy or I'm angry right now.

(12:52):
You can see it in their eye contact, in their body language
and like that's all. You can feel it coming off of
them. So when you're a little less
happy with your dog, your body language needs to be stirred and
the dog should be able to look at you and say, oh, I think
they're not happy. If they look at you and think,
hey, they look happy, well then they're going to be really
confused when you get to them and try to stop them or correct

(13:14):
them because they'd no idea it was coming.
So those would be the three, thekind of, at least to me, the
excited energy, calming energy and then like this, the stern,
more correcting energy. Before we ask Nelson if there's
any more of those, I want to jump on something you just said
about your dog reading your bodylanguage.
We talked a lot in the other episode about us reading dog

(13:36):
body language, but we haven't really talked about dogs reading
people. And I think it's important to
note that as people, we have so much other things going on in
our lives, right? Our dogs are a part of our life,
but for our dogs, we are their life, right?
So they spend a lot of time focusing on us, and they pick up
on things really well. Like way better than we pick up

(13:57):
on dog body language. So it's more than likely that
your dog has a better understanding of you and your
feelings than you do of theirs. I would agree with that
statement. I want to throw out a quick
counterpoint that I think is important for people to hear.
Dogs are great at reading your body language when they're
paying attention to you and whenthey care.

(14:18):
So if your dog's looking at you trying to figure out what the
heck's going on, they can tell alot from your body language.
But a lot of I always hear, to me, this is just not true at
all. People say, you know, if you
feel nervous, your dog will feelnervous.
If you feel confident, your dog will feel confident.
Like maybe. But if your dog's not paying
attention to you, they're not like reading any of your energy

(14:42):
cues. So I hear that a lot.
Like if your dog is, you know, scared on leash and you're kind
of nervous too, they're going topick up on that.
They could, but most likely yourdog isn't looking at you or
paying any attention to you or feeling any energy from you.
If they're leash aggressive or fearful, they're in their own
little world. They're not worried about you.
So I think that's an important caveat that dogs are great at

(15:04):
reading your body language in the times they care, when
they're watching you during training.
But if they're doing their own thing, they're not feeling
anything from you. Yeah, that's a good point.
I agree. Back to jumping back to energy
types, Nelson, did you have any others?
The only other one that I see come into play sometimes is

(15:28):
definitely going to be fearful energy and that that can be from
dogs, but it can also be from people.
So sometimes when you see, I hear it all the time, especially
in first house calls where oh, my dog just, you know, really
didn't like this one person. But this person also is scared
of dogs or doesn't like dogs. You know, they do pick up on

(15:50):
that energy and that body language in it.
The problem is, is that there's a breakdown in what humans do
when we're scared is what dogs do when they are going to be
aggressive or, you know, competitive.
And so there's a misreading of the situation there that
naturally occurs. And that's why sometimes you can

(16:13):
see where dogs will act more abrasive towards people who are
scared of them as opposed to just someone who doesn't like
dogs but isn't scared, you know,and just kind of dismissive,
right? Or like, I just, I don't care
one way or another. I wish you weren't here.
A lot of dogs will actually likethose people.
But when you're scared of a dog,they'll they'll pick up on that

(16:34):
and react accordingly. Absolutely.
And what I would tell a client is, or anybody, in my opinion,
they're picking up on a body language, which is what you were
talking about there. When I, there's people that
believe in energy in different forms.
And there's like when I say energy, I'm talking about

(16:54):
something that you can see and sure, you can feel it too, but
it's not like this magical energy that if you're sitting
next to your dog and they're looking the other way that they
can feel it, right? So I, I don't believe the dog is
like reading all the fear in this average person, like if
they had their eyes shut that they can tell fear is coming off
of them, right? What they're seeing is the

(17:17):
person acting much, much different.
They pick up on that really quickly.
Yeah, definitely. So I think you guys hit all the
ones that I had, the one that I want there.
There's something I wanted to ask about and I'm not sure if
it's an energy level or not. Nonchalantness.
So like just acting like you don't care or actually not

(17:38):
caring, right. So like you're in the situation,
you're not paying attention to the dog, you're and you just
truly don't care. Is that an energy level all
itself or is it like is that a combination of the other ones?
Nelson, take it. I think that that's it would
probably be a combination of theother ones, right?

(17:59):
I think it really is this kind of weird mix of calm energy and
authority or authoritative type of energy, right?
That that correction type of energy.
And it's funny, I tell people all the time and people make the
joke all the time of, oh, so my dad hates dogs.

(18:21):
And so naturally all the dogs want to follow him around and go
everywhere that he goes. And they, they what they take it
as is. Oh, they're picking on him,
right, because he doesn't like dogs.
But I think a lot of it is just finding comfort in the fact that
man, that person applies no social pressure to me
whatsoever, but also just seems to know what he's doing.

(18:45):
Like, I really like that guy. I want to be there.
And I'll tell people, you know, like dogs are kind of like
groupies where often times they pay attention to who they
perceive as the most important person in the room and follow
them around. And someone who is dismissive or
just nonchalant, they're like, man, that guy's not even paying

(19:06):
attention to me. He's so above, above my status
that he can't even pay it. I got to hang out with that guy.
That's the one to follow. So I don't know.
I mean, I would be open to the fact that some people just
naturally give off AI, don't know, a neutral kind of energy
or yeah, again, I guess nonchalant or dismissive.

(19:27):
But if I had to guess, I would say it was kind of a combination
of the two. Yeah, nailed it.
Nailed it well. Why don't we start diving in a
little bit for how people could use energy?
I would encourage any trainer listening that's really, you

(19:50):
know, focused generally on food rewards early on in their
training to try what we're talking about today and try
training a dog with no food rewards.
And this doesn't mean it works with every dog, but I would say
I mean certainly the vast majority of dogs can be trained
really well without food rewards.
And I will give you this that itis harder.

(20:12):
It's not the fastest or the easiest way, but it builds a lot
of really important skills. And I do think even if a trainer
who always used food rewards decided to train one or two dogs
without it, you're going to develop your skills.
Even if you go back to food rewards after with the next dog,
you're going to develop your skills and you're going to feel

(20:32):
you're going to have learned something because you have to be
so much more on point with your voice and with your energy.
And there's a couple times it matters.
I mean, one of the biggest ones is heal and focusing on that
turn, being able to talk to the dog and engage to them or engage
with them and using the right voice that the dog listens to.

(20:53):
And you have to hone that. And sometimes it's hey, there's
my boy good, you know, and adding some more words and to
catch their attention. The more of that you practice,
you're going to realize that very often trainers use a food
reward or a toy or you know, whatever, a tug, something like
that. I don't want to say as a crutch,

(21:13):
but kind of as a crutch. And it's needed to get the dogs
focus. And I think when you learn how
to do it with energy, you're going to find out you're a much
stronger trainer. So lot, lots of talking, lots of
patting the leg, lots of engaging with them, loss of
trying to mark good behavior as soon as you like it with
something, you know, yes, or good boy or whatever.

(21:37):
But these are all things that are already being done in other
training, whether you're using aclicker or using a just a, or,
you know, a voice, you know, a marker of some sort.
You're already doing that stuff,but it's just now trying to put
a little more energy into that. You know, I, I guess I pushed
back a little bit on the, it's easier and faster to use treats.

(22:01):
You know, there's, there's no question that, I mean, treats
obviously get a great response out of dogs and you know that
they're there for the fun, not so much for the actual training,
but they're there for the fun. But I always tell people, you
know, like you're going to have to put in work at some point.
You know, with treats, you can move pretty darn fast and

(22:24):
getting through what, you know, the obedience commands.
That's just kind of keep it simple.
But then you're going to have tospend the time on calming the
dog down, you know, afterwards, right?
Because dogs that kind of what what you were saying Kevy is
that, you know, it is a little bit of a crutch and it starts to
get annoying kind of hanging outwith those dogs that are just
constantly waiting for the treator just I only listen for the

(22:47):
treat, you know, that kind of stuff, which happens all the
time. I mean, that's, that's a norm
that that treat trainers really have to kind of overcome.
And unfortunately we have to overcome all the time too,
because once they get to that point is usually when people
will start to call us. And so, yeah, we're not, we're
not going as fast and teaching the obedience commands, although

(23:09):
it doesn't really seem to take too long in the 1st place, but
we're already kind of building that calm quality or that that
calming factor into it as we go.And so like you're spending that
calming time somewhere, either it's while you're teaching the
obedience commands, or it's after you taught them with
treats and then have to kind of bring them back.

(23:32):
I think that's, that's a good point and a fairpoint for sure.
To be clear, when I'm talking about treats though, and the
trainers I'm speaking to, I'm talking about balanced trainers,
not force free or purely positive.
I'm talking about like I would say, I would think the majority
of balanced trainers are very heavy on food rewards for
teaching. And I'm not opposed to that.

(23:54):
I don't think it's bad. It's just not my and I think our
way is better. You know, it works for me and it
you know, it works well, but I don't think it's terrible to
teach with food rewards at in the slightest.
But I think it's and I do think it is faster to teach.
Like if you're trying to teach sit or you know, a right, like a
right turn right an about turn and you're using food rewards,

(24:16):
it's going to go faster, I think, generally speaking, than
just using praise for sure. I agree with your point.
You've got to do the calming sometime.
So you're going to add in more calming time later.
This somewhat goes to the conversation you and I were
having yesterday, Nelson, about the difference between sport dog
trainers and pet dog trainers and how many sport dog trainers.

(24:40):
You know, I, I feel like a lot of YouTube videos are made by
sport dog trainers and then people adopt that style of
training, which is very focused on food rewards, toy rewards,
you know, tugs something and it's you focus an exciting way
to train that builds drive. So also a lot comes down to what

(25:00):
you're looking to achieve, because we're never looking to
achieve that focused heel. And I think someone like
listening who's really into like, let's say Michael Ellis,
for example, like if they're into him or someone that trains
a lot like that, they'd say, well, show me how you're going
to get your focused heel with the majority of dogs without
food rewards or a tug. And I would say, well, you're

(25:23):
not, I don't care about focused heel.
So there is a big difference. And I think people watching
YouTube videos are in a lot of newer trainers don't understand
that difference that focused yield like for us is just not a
not a needed thing. It's cool and if you want it for
your dog go for it, but it's notneeded to have a well trained
dog. Right, definitely.

(25:45):
And again, I think especially because it's on YouTube and that
certainly those are the videos that do really well.
Those Michael Ellis videos are pretty cool.
I, you know, for a long time I'dwatch and listen to a lot of
those, especially as he started to integrate more into treat
training and using the clicker and everything.
I mean, there was, there was a transition period there that was

(26:07):
pretty interesting. But again, when you actually
start hanging out with those high drive kind of dogs or when
someone who like like a normal family ends up with a very high
drive kind of dog, it's it's a different experience.
It's annoying to me, but I couldunderstand that it wouldn't be

(26:28):
annoying for everybody. But that's just not the dog that
I really want to hang out with or that I want in my house,
right. So again, the outcome is what
will dictate the the training for sure.
I think that's a good point. Absolutely, absolutely.
And everyone's different, right,with their dogs because I see a

(26:49):
lot of sport dog trainers, theirdogs live their life in kennels
and they're up all the time. But I did a podcast episode with
Robert Cabral the other day and he was in a hotel room and his
Malinois are with him and they're just like on the bed
sleeping and you know, came overto say hi and they're stretching
and like super chill. And clearly his, you know, he

(27:12):
does a lot of sport work, right?And those dogs know how to turn
it off in the house. But I've seen a lot of trainers
who their dogs it's crate and rotate right ones in the crate,
then they come out for a while, they go in the yard for a while,
they go to their place cot then back to the crate.
And to me, that's not a a normalway for a dog to live.
And you hear that a lot. And like, I'm certainly not

(27:34):
going to be the one to shit on it by any means because I use
that to some degree. But you'll hear a lot in those
in in that kind of training circle of the crate is the off
button or place is the off button, right.
And like, as soon as I get them off of place or as soon as I get
them out of the crate, I want them, you know, really, really

(27:56):
excited and hyped to work. But yeah, I mean, like, you
couldn't hang out, eat dinner and then watch a movie with a
dog like that because they will be intensely doing something.
And if it's not something constructive, it will be
something, you know, destructive.
Yes, and now we're going off on some tangents, but I think

(28:17):
they're they're good tangents for sure.
And you mentioned excitement earlier that you have to calm
the dog down sometime if you're using a lot of traits or a lot
of, you know, a lot of toys to, as a lure.
And I, I mean, I agree that 100%.
Some people never work in calming them down.
And there lies the difference ingoals.

(28:39):
Because what you just said is some of them want their dog.
I get that leash on. I want the dog ready to work and
for me, I don't want that. And I know my clients don't want
that either. My clients, when they put the
leash on the dog, they want the dog looking at them like, hey,
are we going for a walk? It's calm, it's happy, but it's
calm. It's not fired up.

(29:02):
So when we train, we don't want them on point fired up the
entire time. And I think it takes some
thinking to understand that. But once people wrap their heads
around that, that they see a working dog and like, do you
want that at 7:00 AM when you get your dog's lace out?
And no, like, OK, let's make training a calming thing, not a

(29:23):
crazy thing. I think the biggest thing that
you guys are talking about, but just haven't said the specifics
of is with energy level. I think it's extremely important
that you're finding the right energy level to train the dog on
what you want it to do, where many trainers instead of doing

(29:44):
that, will always train with thesame energy level and train in
the same way. So I mean, you talked a lot
about sport dog trainers. Generally, they're training
those dogs in the same way, right?
A lot of people who train with treats when they're teaching
stuff, they're always going to have a really high energy level
and trying to get the dog super excited when they're doing it.

(30:05):
To me, I don't feel like that's the right way to do it.
I feel like you have to be finding the energy level to help
that dog achieve what you're trying to achieve based on what
its energy level is like and what its needs are like.
I think it's interesting to throw like both of those into

(30:25):
the same category, right? Treat trainers versus sport dog
trainers. And I guess the only reason I
think that is because, you know,treat trainers are trying to
take every dog and be able to train them and they're using the
exact same energy in the exact same.
Kind of. Can I ask a question just for
you to clarify, When you say treat trainers, are you talking

(30:46):
about balanced trainers that arevery heavy on treats or purely
positive? I guess, I guess both not, I
guess the way I would separate that is people who rely on
treats to train that are training everyday dogs, I guess

(31:08):
would be, you know, like, again,for clients like ours or for the
vast majority of people. And the reason I separate sport
dogs and sport dog trainers is because those guys oftentimes
are picking the right puppy and they're to even get into their

(31:30):
game, to even get into their training.
This is not for every dog. This is not for.
And so when we start talking about, OK, you're, you're
picking puppies based on their kind of drive level and
excitement level to go into yourprogram to to be able to do
these, you know, incredible sport features.
And there it starts to make a little bit more sense, right,

(31:50):
that it would be the same approach and the same energy
because, quote UN quote, they'retraining the same dog, right?
That they're always picking the same kind of energy levels and
drive attributes out of the dogsto know that they're going to do
good in the protocol or in the program.
And so I think it's when you skip that point, but you still

(32:12):
heavily rely on treats, I think that's where you really start to
go wrong. And that's where, yeah, not
every dog is going to respond tothe same energy levels in the
same, same practices and same, you know, everything's going to
be the same. We see it all the time.
And even when we don't use treats that some dogs we need to
be more exciting for and other dogs we need to be way calmer

(32:33):
for. There's a vast difference
between a nervous collie and a super duper excitable golden
retriever that's just ready to run and play and have a good
time at the drop of a hat. Without a doubt, the the breed
and the dog's personality matters.

(32:53):
And yes, of course, right, thosesport dog trainers are getting
Malinois that have been bred forsport.
And I, I think we hit on this maybe a little bit earlier, but
I'll give you an example with mytwo dogs, My cattle dog mix is
drivey and that dog is very, very easy to get into a focus

(33:14):
heel. And it doesn't matter.
I mean, you could have, I could have used food, a toy or my
voice and I used my voice And helearned a focused heel from that
because he likes to work and he's watching and he's thinking
and he wants to know what's happening next.
My other dog, the the Radakita mix is like Dopey and just
there's, there's no way she could learn a focused heel, I

(33:37):
don't think from just, you know,talking.
And I mean, I shouldn't say no way.
It would be a crazy amount of work.
And she's not interested enough in toys.
Like a tug would never work because it's just there's not
enough drive there. Food would work for sure.
So a lot of it is knowing the dog's personality and then of
course thinking about do we evencare?

(33:58):
And so I haven't worked in a focus deal with her because it's
completely irrelevant for our life and I just, I don't see the
point. All right, back to the question,
right. So going back to Voss's
question, which is, you know, isit feasible to use the same
energy in the same approach for the common dog?

(34:18):
So again, kind of I'm excluding the sport dogs, but for the
common dog, I think we're all inagreement that it's probably a
bad approach to just think that you're going to be able to use
treats and the same energy levelto elicit the same results every
time. Without a doubt.
And going back to the point thatyou made at the earlier Covey

(34:42):
about if you use treats, try notto.
When I've seen people do that, what I generally see is they
make that same mistake of havingtoo high of an energy level when
they're trying to work on it. They're using that, They're
trying that same energy level and it's not the right energy
level for the dog. Yeah, and you have to shift the

(35:03):
energy quick. And so, and just to clarify my
point from earlier, what I wouldsay just to make sure it's
clear, someone who like a balanced trainer who always
starts with food rewards, I would try training a few dogs
without it. I'm not trying to convince you
to move away from it completely.I could care less.
I just think trying a few dogs without food rewards will really

(35:24):
help strengthen your skills without a doubt.
And then you might go back to food rewards, but you've learned
something and you can add that to the repertoire.
So I think it'd be a good thing.So not advocating for like a
long term change, but energy hasto ebb and flow and change
quickly. And this is where I see a lot of
clients struggle when they're trying to work on energy.

(35:44):
And I think this is kind of whatyou were getting at flaws is if
you make a right turn and you know an outside turn, you're
patting your leg, you're talkingthe dog a lot of energy to get
them turning with you. They make the turn.
But if you keep your energy high, well, now they're going to
end up ahead of you. So you need to keep the energy
high until they get about to where you want and then easy

(36:05):
heal or whatever word you want to use.
And I'm not like some trainers where I'm like, and I don't
think you guys are either. I'm not huge on you have to be
so formal and like easy is not acommand.
Why would you say that? I mean, if you're somewhat
consistent, your dog is going tofigure that stuff out.
So I prefer people to say thingsthey're comfortable with then

(36:25):
trying to lock them into some weird training formula and lost.
You said this earlier that dogs learn a lot from watching their
owners and they're going to learn what easy means if you use
it. But anyways, I digress.
So I would you need to switch into calm training or calm
energy really quickly to slow them down.
Calm praise for being at your side.

(36:47):
Maybe you make, you know, a leftturn in front of them and slow
them down a little bit. And then you make a right turn
with a lot of energy again. And then you make a left turn
to, you know, slow them down again.
So you have to be able to ebb and flow.
Definitely. And I want sometime I want to
get to the come command. Do we want to move to that now,

(37:09):
or is there anything else we want to cover before we get
there? We can go to probably move.
Let's do it. Who's taking this?
Me, you floss Nelson. Oh, that's.
AI. Floss do it.
Let's make AI do it. There you go, we got to get a
fourth window. That would be fun.

(37:33):
Let's do it. We're.
Gonna let's screw around with that.
Can we do that for a future We're gonna?
Put it in AI right now. No, I think it'll be a future
episode. We should.
We need to. Practice.
That would be so fun. And then if it says something
bonkers and you say that and I'mlike, I'm sorry, I'll do better
next time. So the come command.

(37:54):
Come is a hard command. It's the hardest command I think
you know, for a dog to listen toin all scenarios.
And the reason would be most of the time he'll you've got a
leash on or they're at least at your side and sit down, stay.
You're getting their attention like they're already at your

(38:14):
side. Come, they're not at your side.
So it's a bigger challenge. Energy matters here for sure.
And there's such a difference and I'm going to try not to talk
too loud, so don't blow out the audio.
But when you call the dog, there's such a difference
between Ralph come and Ralph come.
Huge difference. And you know, if I was trying to

(38:36):
not be quiet because of the mic,and it'd be even a bigger
difference. But how many, you know, how much
time do we spend with clients onmodifying their tone?
It's huge. And when they finally get it, or
even new trainers, right? And then when they finally get
it, it's like, whoa, now he's listening.
It's a shocking difference when you can master that tone.

(38:58):
Anything you want to add there to that, Nelson?
Yeah, as I do the contrarian because it's also making sure
that you don't go overboard, right.
I mean, I remember when I was focusing more on pure positive
training when I was a wee lad. And everything that they talk

(39:19):
about is you have to be the mostexciting thing in the
environment. And that is, yeah, that is the
end all be all is you have to bethe most, you have to be more
exciting than that squirrel. If there be more exciting than
the rest of the world, you have to be more exciting than whoever
you're calling them away from, you know, all of that kind of
stuff. And I think that's a downfall

(39:41):
for sure, right? You're never going to be more
exciting than absolutely everything in the world.
But what you teach that dog is to go to the most exciting
thing, and that will bite you inthe butt really, really quick.
And so, yeah, there's a lot of energy for sure.
And how we call. And then even talking to men
like, hey, there's a good boy, come on, man, let's go.
But knowing that if the dog veers off or something like

(40:06):
that, the energy will change pretty quickly.
And hate, no hate, come, you know, and then starting to get a
little bit more authoritative. So the energy changing on a dime
is pretty, you know, dramatic for a recall.
Depending on where the dog is and the training.

(40:26):
Yeah, there's a loss. You've got something.
There's a few things I want to unpack from that.
I was going to give you guys AI's answer to your question.
But I don't know if we can take AI's craziness yet.
Let's unpack this and then hear what that wackadoo has to say.
OK, so you said contrarian position.

(40:47):
What was your first point? You said a lot of things there.
Oh, that you don't want to be the most exciting thing or have
to be the most exciting thing? Yeah, I'm without a doubt.
And I mean, that's awesome for purely positive trainers when
they're like, sorry your dog ranaway, but you should have been
more exciting. I like when their answer is you
don't have good enough treats. When it's like by like they yell

(41:09):
at people in their class, like you need to make better treats.
Your dog doesn't like this liver.
Like you have to make something better.
That's why your dog's not listening.
You bought $5 treats. You need $100 treats.
Right. Can you imagine saying that to a
client like I'm sorry, your dog's not listening, but you
just like you need to buy bettertreats and you need to be.

(41:30):
So I mean, I agree with you for sure.
Of course, we're on this on the same page there.
And this is I'm once again I'm speaking to balanced trainers
that are training with praise and then when it's appropriate
phasing a correction in. I see so many clients and new
trainers have problems with using enough praise, which I

(41:51):
think is why so many go to treats And I don't think it had
of course doesn't have to be crazy praise like what you are
implying. If we're trying to out use more
excitement than a squirrel to me, we failed in our training
because you shouldn't be, there shouldn't be a squirrel present
yet. If you're still in the teaching
phase, you should not be in a place with squirrels.

(42:13):
You need to be or this should bein a long line, right?
Or in a in the yard, like in thehouse or something.
And we get that a lot on YouTube, right, where people,
and I think we just talked with us in another episode where
they're like that dog's calm. That doesn't make any sense.
How can I do that with my dog? I'm like, well, train your dog
first. You have to teach them
something. You don't just go right to this.

(42:33):
So I think that's a misconception.
Let's work inside where being the most exciting thing is
really easy. You're just communicating with
your dog as you teach them. But I like what you said about
switching the energy really quickly to the stern energy
because we hit on that a little bit earlier.
But that is so key. Being able to switch from good
boy. There you go to know and in a

(42:55):
way that the dog can feel and pay attention to huge.
I I also think it's worth talking a little bit about what
you said about the, the praise when you're praising them all
the way in and you used, you said it differently, but that's
the phrase I use with clients ispraise them all the way in.
They need that to keep their energy on you.
If they're new to training, they're going to get distracted

(43:17):
by a smell or a bug or somethingon the carpet that looks
interesting. But when you talk to them all
the way in, you're not using excitement.
It's not like you're because I use the same tone you did Nelson
right after coming. Good boy.
There you go. Yes, look at you.
Good boy. Just it's excited, but it's not
crazy. And there it's just to keep

(43:39):
their energy on you. You're not using excitement.
You're keeping their energy focused on you.
Eye contact, you're clapping your hands, something to keep
them moving to you. And that's a hard skill to
develop. For sure there's a goofy aspect.
I think there's a goofy aspect that a lot of clients need to
get over of Like it's just, it'sjust weird, you know, like to be

(44:03):
talking to your dog and saying nonsense.
You know that the question I always get is like, well, what
do I say? Like say anything, man, I don't
know. I don't care what it is that you
say, so long as you're talking to your dog all.
Right, Voss, what do you got? So AI did pretty well with this
I'm it's an impressive AI answer, not a frustrating.

(44:24):
Can I ask a question though? Are you using the suburban
canine AI or just general ChatGPT?
This is just general ChatGPT, not a not a modified GPT.
So it says that energy level is very important.
Tone of voice, happy, excited and encouraging.
Body language should be open andwelcoming.

(44:47):
You could use movement, run away, or take a few steps to
encourage the dog to come to you.
Avoid low or dull energy, a harsh or angry tone.
Motivation is key. So that's a.
That's a pretty general summary of what it says, but I'd say
pretty good answer at the end ofthe day.

(45:08):
Yeah, and I like it said, I don't know exactly how it said
it, but backing up when you callthe dog, it's something we
always do with a new dog, right?And that's energy.
It's pulling them towards you. There's a little bit of movement
and not backing up like crazy. If you're listening, you haven't
watched this train before. It's not the style of like
running backwards to use excitement.

(45:30):
It's backing up slowly and engaging to keep them focused on
us. Pretty good AI, not bad.
Yeah, not too bad. Yeah, it did a good job for
once. Yeah, well, so I don't, it
didn't say this, but when it talked about posture made me
think as well. How many people have you seen

(45:50):
struggle by calling a dog and they take a step towards it or
they're leaning towards it as they call the dog and the dog
doesn't come. And, and of course we always
explain to them that in dog bodylanguage, if you're walking
towards them, if they're submissive, they're going to
freeze or they might hit the deck, they're not going to come

(46:11):
to you. That's not a normal dog thing.
If a dominant dog, and you know,I know that's a loaded word, but
the controlling dog or whatever,if they are walking to another
dog and the other dog knows thatthat dog's not happy, They're
not coming to that dog. They're not going to run over.
They're going to freeze or lowertheir tail or lay down something
or maybe try to kind of slink away, but they're certainly not

(46:32):
going to come. And so when people call their
dog and if their dog is sensitive to body language
because they all pay attention in a different manner.
But if they call the dog and they lean towards too strongly
or take a step towards them, that can create absolute havoc
in the training. Definitely.
So definitely important to know about.

(46:56):
What do you got, Nelson? I've got tons of things burning
holes in my brain. I was just thinking of, you
know, like how much that plays arole in a lot of what we do
right now. I go to heal.
And very, very often if a dog starts to pull back, owners will
turn around on them and like, come on, man, let's go.

(47:16):
Like, what's going on? And I think of the same exact
thing when they don't want to jump out of a car or they don't
want to come out of the crate orsomething like that.
Again, turning to them and and trying to reel them in.
It seems to be a pretty common go to as opposed to, you know,
like for all of us, what we practice is actually turning
away and walking as though they're going to be following

(47:37):
you because yeah, that that turning around on them off and
puts a freeze. 100% And that's one of the areas I wanted to go
to is, I mean, you mentioned carand I was thinking of dogs that
won't go upstairs, but it could be slippery floors, whatever.
And we, we all know how much energy makes a difference there.

(48:00):
And it's not dragging the dog through it.
It's using energy, engaging the dog, getting them working with
you and then, you know, walking quickly across the floor and you
could use treats there. So for someone listening to me,
we're kind of off of that subject now.
So you could say, but I could dothe same thing with praise and
with treats and it would work better.

(48:20):
And if that works, that's fine. Then there's nothing wrong with
trying treats first by just tossing them across the floor
and seeing if the dog will follow the trail.
If they do, that's great. That means this issue is not
that severe and you're done that, you know, if you can do
that, that's awesome. Most of the time when we're
called in, it's it like that's not going to work.
You're you're past that point. It's too severe of an issue for
whatever reason. So then we're going to use a lot

(48:42):
more energy getting them focusedon us and then walk across the
floor. And you guys both know when we
do that, when you have the rightenergy and they're with you,
when you start crossing the floor, they're not even really
thinking about it because now they're focused on you.
Good point. Smooth heel through there.

(49:03):
Say that again. It's a pretty smooth heel
through those floors or through those doors and stuff like that
if they're already kind of used to working with you and you guys
are dialed in. Absolutely.
Is that camera in the backgroundthere real or is that a prop?
No, that's my OK. It's my all right right there.

(49:24):
The color looks weird. I think it might be from the
that light that's in front of it.
It doesn't look. Does it look weird?
Do you've lost It doesn't look like a real camera.
It looks like there's a gold tint to it.
I'd say it's. Definitely a warm tint from the
light. Yeah, I'd.
Say it looks awesome is what it looks to me like that.
Like. Real like it looks not

(49:49):
realistic, but in a really cool way.
I could get behind that. I agree definitely very very
cool looking. Now it looks like a real camera
when it was back there before. I think where the camera might
be focused, you know, your camera for recording is focused
more on use. It's blurred out some, but then
the light is like making it kindof orangish goldish.

(50:13):
I'm curious how you even saw it.Did you have his camera pinned
or do you have your settings so that it jumps back and forth
between us? Because when I'm on my normal
settings I can't even see the camera, it's just focused.
On Nelson, just to see what you were talking about for sure.
I think I've just got a better I'm on a 96 inch monitor, so
there's. There's room for all.

(50:36):
I don't. Hang on, let me drag it to my
bigger monitor. Nope, still don't see it.
You need a bigger monitor. 96 inches is the way to go.
I can see all of Nelson's pores.It's amazing.
Amazing. So what else do we want to get
to in energy? And we could spend so much time

(50:58):
on this and we've hit a lot of the highlights.
Oh, stern energy. We haven't.
We spent a little time there on come, but we haven't talked
about that with dog jumping on the couch when they shouldn't,
or dog running away from you or dog barking out the window.
Or the window, yeah. Yeah.
You want to take that one, Nelson Medrano?

(51:19):
Yeah. So again, the energy, how do I
put this in a good way? Like for dogs, often times
they're used to people. And then I'm talking about just
general owners, right? Very, very often they are used
to being yelled at or hearing yelling or, you know, like tons

(51:41):
of protests from the owners. No, get off, off, you know, like
down all these different things.But often times the energy and
the body language and all of it doesn't kind of convey the same
thing. And so really what you start to
get to is where you're talking alot to the dog, but it's not in

(52:05):
the very stern. You don't have a stern
authoritative type of energy when you're telling them to stop
jumping on the counter. And so they look at you
excitingly, don't think to themselves at all, hey, I might
be in trouble and then just continue screwing around on the
counter or barking out of the window.
And So what we talked about is making sure that you kind of
square up with the dog and that you're giving eye contact.

(52:29):
You know, I tend to snap and usea finger, but you want to
portray to that dog the fact that you're upset and that they
did something wrong. Yes, yes, yes.
I mentioned earlier, sometimes I'll show this to a client and
I'll show them especially if they're like, you know, you can

(52:51):
tell they don't really believe in the difference of energy.
And I'll say like with no voice whatsoever.
Tell me the difference between the two times I walk up to you
and I'll walk up to them once with like soft eyes, right and
soft body language and very non threatening and then I'll walk
up. Soft.
Eyes. Yeah, can.
You show us. Can you show us soft eyes right

(53:12):
now? Yeah, there.
Watch this. Look how soft those are versus
then walking up the next time with a little more assertive
body language, right? Direct stare, right, actual eye
contact and walking with purposeand with energy.

(53:32):
And anyone who's listening, if you hear that and you're like, I
don't know if there's really a difference, think about it like
you can see someone watch any YouTube video of someone about
to either defend themself or attack someone or someone that
has stronger body language. It's not hard to see the
difference versus someone who's like nervous or someone who's

(53:54):
just walking down the street. It doesn't take an expert to see
that difference. And so to be clear, I'm not
talking about body language of like I'm going to attack you
right now, but stern body language.
And when you show that difference every clients like,
yeah, that second time was kind of weird.
It's a little uncomfortable, right?
It just is. I'd like you to make the

(54:15):
thumbnail for this episode a a comparison of your soft eyes
versus your intense stare and like, tag them with what it was.
Well, no, you can't tag. People just have to.
They'd have to know the difference.
We don't need tags. That's that's the point.
So I show people that differenceand make it clear you need

(54:36):
different body language for different things, right?
If your dog is just, I mean, First off, if they're being good
and you walk up, obviously you want soft body language and they
know you're happy. If you're a little bit unhappy,
then you're going to use sternerbody language, but you wanted to
know you're a little unhappy andif this is a big problem, they
have to stop immediately. You need them conditioned to

(54:58):
know your body language. You're really, really unhappy
body language, and make sure they stop.
And if you were to listen and say, well, when is that going to
be relevant? Well, there's all these small
times that it's relevant, but they get a sock, they could
swallow it and die, right, or have to have surgery.
And even if they don't swallow the sock and you say, well, my

(55:18):
dog would drop it. Well, what if they grabbed a
thing of toothpaste? Or what if they grabbed many
other things? And it's not even just about
grabbing stuff. They need conditioned to respond
to your stern tone when needed for those times when the leash
pops off and you're outside and there's cars around and they go
to leave and you say hey in likeyou need them conditioned to

(55:39):
think, Oh, and the stop for you and to realize stopping looking
for you is a good thing, not to run from you when you're
unhappy. And it, you know, if you think
that's not important, then I think you're a crazy person.
You just like with a kid. Can you imagine a three-year old
kid? If you're like, I don't know if
I ever want a time where they really think I might be mad at
them. Like, well, then when they run

(56:00):
off in the parking lot, what areyou going to do?
Just like, oh, buddy, no, don't do that.
That's really naughty. You need a tone that they're
like, oh crap, I crossed a line.Look.
For cars. And I think every reasonable
person knows this when they think about it.

(56:21):
And but there's a big differencebetween being pissed off at your
dog all the time and yelling at them 1000 times a day.
That's not good. There's a big difference between
that and when a dog is 6 months old, once every three days,
having to use your really stern voice where they're like, uh oh,
I think I just crossed a major line, right?
Here for sure. It's a big, big, big difference.

(56:43):
So I'm not advocating yelling atyour dog constantly or always
being angry at them. If you're training well, this
should be few and far between. But they need condition to
respond to that body language and you need to know how to do
it. Which sounds stupid, but a lot
of people don't have that. They need to learn that.
Yeah. You know what I've noticed for a
lot of people, and like when we say learn dog body language and

(57:07):
stuff like that, I think a lot of it is just learning the
specifics. You know, you can read
naturally, Most people can read human body language and dog body
language and have a pretty good,you know, synopsis of what the
dog is feeling. They just don't know what
they're seeing. And so then when they're trying
to portray that body language, they, they don't necessarily

(57:31):
know how to do it. They, they would recognize it if
they saw it, but they don't actually know what it is that
they're looking at. It's just a feeling that they
get when the combination of, youknow, body language kind of
presents itself. And so there is, there's a
there's a lot of people that we have to kind of coach through
of, you know, stand up straight,square up, you know, direct eye

(57:51):
contact, that kind of stuff, tone of voice makes it makes a
big difference. And so those, those little
things, it's the combination that makes that stern energy,
right? And that's where people kind of
get a little crazy as to like, well, I don't, I don't know how
to oftentimes, right. We'll see where women put on a
really, really like awkward deepvoice because they're trying to

(58:12):
emulate, you know, a man's voiceor their husband's voice or
whatever. And it's like, I don't like, I
don't think you really need that.
But if you had the combination of everything else your your
regular stone stern voice probably would have done it just
fine. And a lot of people have to
learn how to be assertive when needed, because some people grow

(58:34):
up never doing that, you know, and you guys know, I, I train in
Krov and that's a, a common thing that's taught in a lot of
classes. You know, we do a lot of work
with weapons like disarming people that have knife, gun,
bat, whatever. And if you can't disarm the
weapon right away and if you have it pinned against their
body or something, you learn andyou're trained on how to make

(58:56):
eye contact and make yourself look and feel meaner and how to
say things in an assertive fashion that might not be normal
to you. So it seems crazy.
But in a lot of training classes, you're like, you're
learning how to threaten the person like to, you know, to
drop the weapon right away because it's not a normal thing.
People, some people have that, of course, right?

(59:18):
But most people don't. And you have to learn that
through time, you know, that that energy and that tone.
Luckily, dogs don't have weaponsusually.
I'll tell you what have I told either of you guys the story of
that poodle years ago that grabbed the knives and ran?

(59:41):
Oh my gosh, it wasn't with me. It was his dog.
It was the smartest dog I've ever trained.
And he was a nightmare, really. A standard poodle came in as an
adult, like really bad did all this bad stuff, but he had taken
knives from the butcher block inthe kitchen at the owner's house
and running through the house with the knives, like, and they

(01:00:02):
had kids and toddlers. I mean, Can you imagine a
standard poodle racing through the house with a but like, with
a big old knife in its mouth? At insane at like head level for
all these toddlers for sure. Is it insane?
And he would open their sliding door and run off like he would
stand up and push it with his paws and open it.
Just like he was the only dog with me that ever learned the

(01:00:24):
long line and would pick it up to try to run away.
Oh, there you go. Never had that happen and he
would just pick it up in his mouth and it wasn't accidental
like you know, a golden might pick it up or a lab like for
fun. When they get excited, yeah.
Yeah, and they bite it. And you think like, are they
doing that on purpose? And you realize they just like
to bite stuff. And then the next time they're

(01:00:44):
biting the grass as they run away from you, they're just like
having fun. But he would pick it up and then
he would set it down and pant, and then if you got near, he'd
pick it up again and try to run again.
That's hilarious. Yeah, he was something.
So yeah, that dog had weapons. But most don't.
The vast majority are usually safe.
And generally, generally unarmed.

(01:01:06):
All right, What else? What have we not covered?
I just want that's. All I can remember.
I just want to throw out there, every single episode before we
start cover, you remind us of wanting to try and stick to a
time limit. And then every single episode,
we're past the time limit and you're like, bringing up new
topics like let's talk about dogs and weapons.

(01:01:30):
I'll tell you what I feel like. I don't know how long this
episode should be, but like every time we get done with one
I think of all these things I wish we had talked about and
like separation anxiety. Yeah.
Like that episode I feel like maybe should have been twice as
long or three times as long. But maybe people are bored to
tears. Maybe they need to be 3 partners
broken into chunks. That was the one that was an

(01:01:52):
hour and 40 minutes long, right?That's the one you're talking
about. I'm pretty sure.
I don't know. All I know is that like the last
second, as we're signing off, Nelson's like, why don't we talk
about crates so. You know what we should have
been talking about? OK, well, let's call it.

(01:02:14):
I think we covered a lot. I would love feedback on this
episode. Drop some comments.
Let us know what you think aboutenergy.
Let us know what we missed. If you think there needs to be
an expansion of this, we'd love to do it, so let us know.
Yeah, Part 2 or part three-part 6, whatever.
Oh, just a whole energy series. This is part 29 of our energy

(01:02:38):
series today. We need a whole lot of
nonchalant energy, like Voss said, that's certain.
It's a whole episode. That is a whole episode for
sure. Hands in your pockets, whistling
a little bit, kicking rocks reeled like a like a little boy
from the 1950s. Kicking a can down the road.
That is nonchalant. All right.
Thanks for watching, everybody. Bye bye.