In this heartfelt Part 1 episode, Jason S. Frishman, PsyD, founder and lead guide at JourneyMen Foundation, shares his insights on what it means to redefine fatherhood as part of real leadership and community care. He explains why supporting fathers’ mental health is vital for family and organizational well-being.
Guided by Kai Sorensen, Director of Podcasts, and Greg Baldwin, Multimedia Specialist—both fathers themselves—this conversation unpacks how challenging traditional norms of masculinity can unlock healthier ways of parenting, partnering, and leading. Jason also dives into the myth of the hero’s journey and how it impacts fathers’ identities, offering practical strategies like mindfulness and the Values Compass exercise to help men navigate daily stress and stay true to their values.
Together, they remind us that fatherhood is an adventure worth sharing—not just surviving alone.
In Part 2, Jason will take you through a guided exercise about using your "Value Compass".
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:02):
I was a dude, then I was a
boyfriend, then I was a husband, then I
was a father. You know? And and my
dude self sometimes wants to come out more.
And and the resolution of my dude self
with my father self is sometimes a real
struggle.
Hi. I'm Kai Sorensen, director of podcast here
(00:24):
at Balancing Life's Issues. And welcome to a
very special two part drop of This Is
Your Job Now.
If you've listened to this show before, you
know we talk a lot about real leadership,
the kind that shows up for the whole
person, the total individual.
And in this conversation with doctor Jason Frishman,
we're taking that idea into fresh
fatherhood, mental health, and why well-being isn't just
(00:44):
about fixing what's broken. It's about intentionally building
what helps us thrive. Jason's a clinical psychologist,
guide, and father who's spent decades helping men
connect with themselves and each other in ways
that challenge old stories about what it means
to quote, unquote man up. In part one,
we're going to talk about why fathers need
community, what it looks like to challenge outdated
ideas of masculinity,
(01:05):
and how leaders, yes, even those who are
not dads, can create supportive spaces that help
people show up as their full selves at
work and at home. In part two, Jason
will guide you, especially the fathers tuning in,
through a practical exercise called the values compass.
If you can find fifteen quiet minutes, you'll
be able to pause, reflect, and map out
what really matters most for you, your family
(01:26):
and the way you lead.
So settle in. This is your moment to
breathe, to listen, and maybe to see fatherhood
and well-being
in a whole new way because showing up
for the total individual
is your job now. Let's get started.
Welcome to This Is Your Job Now because
leadership means showing up, especially when it's uncomfortable.
Today's guest is Jason Frishman,
(01:47):
therapist, facilitator, and founder of the Journeyman Foundation.
He's built a space where men, especially dads,
can be real about what they're going through,
not just as parents, but as people, which
is why Greg and I are here leading
this discussion as opposed to Wendy because we
are brand new dads. We're not brand new.
What am I talking about? Greg, tell us
a little bit about,
your current family life, and then I'll I'll
(02:08):
go into mine before we bring in Jason.
Yeah. I've
got a lovely,
wife and two children,
two daughters. They, in a month, they will
be four and two.
My wife and I have, a son who's
gonna be two at the June, and that
will bring us to our guest. Jason, welcome
to this is your job now.
(02:29):
Excellent. Thank you all so much, and I'm
really glad to be here. I'll follow suit
and say I have two sons, wife and
two sons. We live here in, rural Vermont,
and
they are 17 and 14. Well, here we
are. You know, we're Greg and I are
both deeply curious about the work you do
with fathers. So I guess tell us a
little bit about what you do, how you
got there, and I guess
(02:49):
maybe at the end of that question, you
know, why should leaders care about fatherhood? That's
the question. Right? But, you know, a little
background is
I've been a psychologist for thirty years
practicing
primarily as a psychotherapist.
And so for the vast majority of that
time, I've worked with boys, families, and men.
And as my career has moved on,
(03:12):
I've worked more and more with men and
fathers and become really passionate about
the sort of mental health, social health, connective
health of men and men's.
And so that became
really a passion in my psychotherapy practice. My
my caseload sort of evolved. I saw more
and more men, more and more men who
(03:32):
were
doodads.
And and really this idea
of fathering as a verb became really important
to me. Like, as men, what are we
fathering? What are we bringing
to to the table? And and so,
about 2019,
2018,
before the pandemic, I started Journeyman as a
coaching program mostly to be able to bring
(03:54):
the work out of the psychotherapy space for
lots of really
different and and powerful reasons. But primarily, as
a coach,
we have a little bit more freedom to
work outside
the sort of realm of the office. Metaphorically
and literally, we can be out of the
therapy office. Which brings me to your question
around leadership and why should leaders care about
(04:16):
fathers
is because we are out of the office.
We're at home. We're at work. We're you
know, when you hold the role and the
identity of a father, you don't put it
down for work, right? You don't
leave it when you go out with your
friends. You don't you know, it's always there.
And so,
as leaders, if we help men integrate that
(04:36):
role and that identity
into the other areas and arenas of their
lives,
everything
gets better.
When we heal men, we heal our our
our communities and our cultures and whatnot.
Yeah. So I guess it may got me
thinking of, like, is there a recent example?
Maybe we can all provide one of where
fatherhood moment, and now I have to go
(04:57):
to work, and maybe I wasn't able to
leave
fatherhood at the table, or maybe I shouldn't
have left fatherhood, you know, at the door.
So, like, Greg, is anything coming to mind
recently of father bleeding into work?
Sure.
I mean, there's many times where I forget
to lock the door to this
space that I'm currently in right now that
I work work from. And, I I work
(05:19):
from home, and,
my eldest daughter finds her way in. And
she has joined many a meeting where I've
been like, oh, please excuse me. There's a
toddler in the background. She's just hanging. Give
me just
fifteen seconds. Just give me some grace here,
and,
I'm very thankful that I, for the most
part, we're in a environment, Kai, and you
(05:40):
could speak to this too, that
that
is very much part of our culture of
finding that flexibility and understanding
that we take every bit of life that
is thrown our way and integrate it into
our work environment. So for that, we're very
fortunate. But, yeah, I think there also sometimes,
you know, this job isn't exactly nine to
(06:01):
five. Right? We get the calls at
six, 06:30, sometimes seven. Right?
So there have been times where I've been
going down the street or just recently,
was with my daughter. She was going for
a bike ride down the street, then I
was walking alongside her, and I got a
call. It was a little bit after hours,
and I picked it up and I said,
hi. I'm so glad you called. I know
(06:23):
this is a time sensitive,
thing, but just just so you know, there's
a toddler in tow, so you might hear
some of that. And if our conversation gets
interrupted
briefly, I do apologize. But,
you know, those are just some examples of,
integrating fatherhood into work and vice versa. Just
that flexibility is so important.
Yeah. And I think, Jason, I think the
(06:44):
question I wanna add too because I
those same anecdotes and more for myself, I
think more recently might have been more about,
like, just sleep, like,
lack thereof, maybe kind of bringing that kind
of fatigue to the workplace. So I think,
Jason, over to you, though, the question I
have is is for leaders who are not
flexible or who are not empathetic to that
that version of a person who's who's in
(07:06):
the office today, who's maybe sleep deprived or
at home working because the kids are sick
and the you know? What what does that
do to, like, maybe the psychological safety of
someone in the workplace who doesn't feel like
they have that support from leadership? Okay. It's
that's such a huge question, you know, because
as soon as you said that, I I
sort of went in a lot of different
directions because,
(07:27):
you know, the idea of what it does
to psychological safety is so important to, like,
being an efficient and effective worker and and
being present with all of your your colleagues
and all of those things. And, also,
it sends a bigger message
to that individual man for when he's at
home as well. Right? Where, basically, when leaders
aren't empathetic to the situation of fatherhood,
(07:49):
we are basically
suggesting
or strong arming
you must be separate. You must create different
identities. You must be at work, then you
must be at home. And definitely don't bring,
you know, bring work home, but don't bring
home to work. Right? Like, that becomes a
message that
is painful
for so many men. And so psychological safety,
(08:12):
it sort of
the
un
the aunt's ease
of that moves from work to home and
vice versa, and so men carry that. That
becomes an extra
weight on top of many of the other
things that fathers specifically are holding. And so,
you know, at work,
(08:33):
guys will be distracted.
They're likely not going to be, you know,
as free to be connected. Like, you know,
Greg, when you gave your example, you say,
yeah. You know, there's a toddler in tow,
so if I get distracted, I'll tell you.
Right? So you're suggesting something in the very
beginning that then gives explicit permission in both
directions to be like, hey. Hold on a
minute. Let me do this.
(08:54):
You know?
I loved as a result of the pandemic
and everything lots of things being on Zoom,
I I sort of have loved watching,
where in the middle of of some meeting,
not therapy sessions. That's different. But in the
middle of of some meeting, a kid comes
in the back door or someone's screaming or,
you know, those kind of things. And there
there's been a bit of a shift, and
(09:15):
I think it's a good thing. But
without it, it is yeah. It it it
impacts it's a downward spiral. It impacts workers,
the community, and the culture at work, and
it impacts the community culture at home for
a father. It seems like
like a lot of the work you do
is challenging this traditional norm of of fathers
(09:36):
in the workplace. Right? I'm father at home,
and I am man working in the workplace.
So I guess with the work you do,
how do you how do you challenge that
norm? And, like, what what kind of challenges
do you see with people coming
to kind of this where where you're at
with all of this?
Well, I, you know, I I think
(09:56):
the first piece of challenging any norm is
identifying it and seeing it. Right? The idea
of
typical norms that we all live in, it's
like, you know, a fish, like, swimming in
water. Right? It doesn't recognize it's in water.
We don't often think about the air we
breathe.
And the stories and the norms and the
behavior the patterns
(10:17):
of sort of modern day fatherhood
are things that we don't actually think about
that often. We may think about, oh, this
is stressful. Oh, I marinated.
But we don't take the time to identify,
recognize, and
kind of explore
these dominant kind of norms and ways of
being. And so the very first thing is
(10:38):
I asked a lot of questions about what
it's like and how does that impact, and
let's learn let's let's name that. Right? When
you say this norm, right,
maybe it is the nonempathetic
norm. You know? We name it. Because now
once we name it, we have something to
reference, and we have a language. Right? The
three of us now, if I say the
nonempathetic norm, you know exactly what I'm talking.
(11:00):
And so Right. Right. I can and and
once I do that, I can recognize it
more, and I can be aware of it.
I can notice how that feels. I can
notice how it feels when I'm doing well
or when I'm not doing well, when I'm,
you know, when I'm fed and not or
hungry. You know? They they have different impact
on our interactions with others have different impacts
on us based on what's been going on.
(11:21):
If I leave for work after having a
big argument with my partner,
I'm gonna show up at work slightly differently.
If I come home after being yelled at
by my boss, I'm gonna show up at
home
very differently.
And so the idea of challenging these norms
is to help guys first understand them and
notice them. And then second,
(11:42):
be at a place in their own sort
of self awareness
that they can understand what choices they can
make
that might be different and that might bring
them to a more connected place,
which is really ultimately, in many ways, the
goal.
Yeah. Yeah. No. That that all makes sense.
And, Greg, I'm super curious what you think
about this because I know with my generation,
(12:04):
millennial, 37, at the time of this recording,
it does feel like at least in my
community of friends who have fathers. And I
think culturally,
there is more of a shift to, I
think, fathers
taking more of
a hands on role in parenting,
with nurturing, I think, especially.
So I don't know. That's definitely been my
(12:25):
experience. Like, my wife was not interested in,
a family if it wasn't as much of
a fifty fifty split as possible. And I
we both admit right now with a toddler,
it's closer to sixty forty in terms
of mom need needing mom, which we're working
on.
But, yeah, Greg, I'm curious. Has that been
your experience just kinda, like, within your,
(12:47):
I guess, norm, like, what the air I
am currently breathing and maybe trying to identify
it? Totally. And, you know, similarly, Kai, we
there is more of a gravitation
from them to mom as well right now
where it's like, mom has to, like
she has to prepare the meal right now
for whatever reason. Like, so I'm not break.
(13:09):
Yeah. Like, for whatever reason, I can't do
it according to my eldest. She's like, no,
daddy. You can't do that. It has to
be for mom.
But to your point, yeah,
the the expectation is definitely
that,
I'm as equally involved and available as, humanly
possible. And,
you know, I don't think we ever, like
(13:29):
my wife and I ever sat down and
had that conversation,
but we were definitely on the same page.
And we've mentioned it from time to time
of, you know, like,
finding the time to be equally there and
just interesting to see.
I don't have the the studies.
Maybe we could do this after to support
this, but there is something about, you know,
(13:50):
how many diapers are changed by fathers as
generations progress. Right?
And, you know, going back to,
you know, the the the fathers of baby
boomers changed, like, rarely any diapers and then,
you know, so forth. There's been more involvement
there. So that's just, like, an interesting
kind of perspective of, like,
(14:11):
how fathers are involved in very small ways
that, Kai, to you and I feel like
no brainer, like a, yeah, a diaper change.
No problem. Right? Like, of course.
But I do I do remember, like, when
Miles was first born,
I think we live in a pretty pretty
neutral community. There's a good mix of, you
know, conservative values, liberal values, and I think
(14:34):
it's a very nice community. But when I
when Miles was first born, I do remember
getting strange looks because I would have Miles
strapped to me in the harness,
you know, at the grocery store or or
at the community
music
thing that was going on, definitely from an
older community. Like, interesting.
That seems more of, like, a maternal role
(14:54):
that this person I wonder what he's all
about. Right? It's like you could just see
the gears turning, which is super interesting. So
I think this is leading me to asking
you, Jason, going back to leaders creating these
supportive environments. Like, as the times change, it
seems like as leaders, we need to be
aware of this too that
fathers are playing more of a role nowadays.
(15:16):
Absolutely.
You know, even more than leaders
needing to be more aware,
leaders need to be leading. Right? Like, this
is a change. And what's interesting and I
don't remember the exact percentage, so I'm not
gonna state it incorrectly just in case. But
there's some huge percentage,
statistically, that fathers are spending more time nurturing
(15:38):
and caring and and being with their kids.
But the interesting thing about that statistic
is that
there aren't
that a proportionally
a proportionate
level of resources for fathers who are now
staying home doing things that they were not
trained by their own fathers today. To no
(15:59):
fault of the fathers, but but, like, let's
just say we're home and we're engaged 300%
more than in the fifties.
That means we have 300%
more opportunity
grew up.
You know? And it's an interesting shift. I
don't mean it that way because it's a
lovely thing, and I'm all for it. But
we're now at home. We are all well
(16:20):
meaning. We're, you know, we're carrying our kids.
We're changing diapers. We're doing all those things,
And yet we're still holding these old stories
and old norms about what fatherhood is, about
what masculinity is. And
we have this need to really
support and educate and and really guide,
fathers who are willing to sort of take
(16:41):
that journey. So to your question about leaders,
the idea that leaders become more aware that
fathers are
even
if we're at work, we're thinking about our
kids more than just the obligatory picture on
your desk. And so Yeah. You know, are
there resource groups? Are there supports? Are there
(17:02):
you know, is there time that structures put
in that fathers can, you know, in honestly,
in service of being a
better employee,
a more effective man, a more related human,
this is a place that at work that
that can happen really effectively,
and it's win win for everyone.
(17:23):
Yeah. And I I think that kinda gets
me back to kinda the work you do
because I know Greg and I have remarked
even before you were on our radars that,
you know, we're both the first and, Greg,
you'll correct me if I'm miss misspeaking, but
I think we're both the first of our
friend groups, to have kids. So when it
like, because the close friends I have who
have children are back in Nebraska, and this
(17:45):
has been going on for a while. Right?
I moved to the East Coast, and life
is a little different. And, you know, there
was a real sense of loneliness, especially with
my core group of friends who I, you
know, I tour with in a band that
although they're very happy for me and they're
so supportive, there's just there's just
that that little piece, that disconnect that they're
not support can't really be there in certain
ways because of that lived experience. And
(18:08):
enter Greg, who I'd worked with for years
and in another job, and now he's he's
back here. Well, the one of the first
things that I benefited greatly from Greg was
just this idea of, like, oh, man. Last
night was rough.
And, like, Greg being able to say, like,
oh, yeah. I've been there. You know? And,
you know, Greg is that has been your
experience as well. I'm Yeah. Yeah. We have
very similar lived experience there because similarly,
(18:30):
also in a
band, bandmates don't have children
either. So there's you know? And as you
said, supportive,
but they don't they're just missing that, like,
the stuff that happens behind the scenes that,
like, I can't really go to them to
talk about
because they can't relate to it. They'll listen.
They're open to hearing it, but,
(18:51):
we we Kai, I'm, like, searching for someone
to be like, yo,
you're in it with me. You get it.
Right? So, like, Kai, you're one of, like,
the very few people that I can go
to about that sort of thing, and
I think this is a perfect segue, Jason,
for you, which is that, like,
there's that need for, like,
father father connection. Right? There's gotta be, like,
(19:13):
that, that community of just, like, fathers being
able to speak to each other
and just have that relation. Right?
Absolutely. I'll just quick quick anecdote before we
get to the community piece, and and I
think I know where you're going with that.
But, you know, my dearest One of my
dearest oldest friends, we've known each other for
since we were 12. I'm 51 now. And
(19:35):
he When my 17 year old was born,
coincidentally,
he moved to the area.
No kids at the time, wasn't married. And
so, like, I had a newborn, and he'd
call in, like, a Wednesday at ten and
be like, hey. Do you wanna come meet
me? We're going out. I'm like Mhmm. Oh,
no. I'm I don't wanna do that. You
know? You can't even come over here because
I'm going to bed when I come to
(19:56):
bed. Right. And
he was great. I mean, he he understood
and whatever, but like you're saying, there's a
certain limit. Right? Like, there's a certain under
you know, there's a lived experience. And so
the idea of building community,
you know, it doesn't mean that every father
is automatically going to be your deepest, truest
friend.
But having that
(20:17):
level of
safety and community to be able to dare
lived experience, to be able to come in
from that sort of adventure of fatherhood and
go, oh my. Yeah. You you wanna hear
what happened today? My gosh. Right? Like and
and
what I you know, some of the work
that I do at Journeyman, our our sort
of motto is, you know, your journey is
(20:39):
our journey. Your work is our one.
And that really speaks to this, you know,
someone will come in and, let's say, spend
an entire hour
sharing what's going on for them and then
go, oh, I'm so sorry. I just took
the whole hour. And, you know, the response
that I don't even have to say anymore,
but from another man is saying, did you
notice that everybody's head was bobbing the whole
time? Did you notice that just by you
(21:01):
sharing your story, we're all growing?
And so
the idea of being able to do that
in a place that feels okay is affirming
of, you know,
this is a fatherhood space, and it's it's
okay. And and and we can talk about,
like,
all of the ridiculous
stuff that happens, you know,
(21:22):
share some dad jokes and all of these
things. But I I think that is
incredibly important, whether it's at work, whether it's
outside of work or in your community or
through a men's group.
Mhmm.
Yeah. And I and I guess maybe off
the top of your head, you know, is
for leaders, is it is it about creating
those spaces, like, at the workplace? Like, Greg
(21:43):
and I just came about it naturally because
we're we've been friends for a while, but
it I mean, we rarely text outside of
work because if I text Greg,
it's maybe a video didn't upload or Wendy
you know what I mean? So I'm careful
about that. But, you know, for Greg, it
it came across naturally, but there's been such
a level of empathy that we have for
one another,
at at this time in our lives that
(22:04):
it's not that, like, you're excusing
maybe something got in an hour later, but
there's just there's the benefit of the doubt
is there. Right? And I think that's so
important
in the workplace of just trusting
that the people are people are there to
to work and to to enjoy themselves, but
it does take that kind of, I don't
know, like, removing of of this wall we
put up when we come into work and
(22:26):
we're not ourselves anymore. So I guess
what's the leader's role in, like, helping create
that environment? I you know, there there's a
couple of different pieces, but the first thing
that you know, when I've talked with leaders
and really sort of challenged them is to
name things name it explicitly.
Right? Like, the there is so much that
in sort of men's work, men's health, men's,
(22:48):
you know, fatherhood roles, that doesn't get spoken.
Or if it does, it gets
explicitly
shot down.
Right?
Because there's such a growth in the roles
of men these days, which I think is
absolutely important,
there's also at the same time this you
know, I I've heard numerous times when I
(23:10):
say I work with men,
I've heard people say, well, we have to
support more women. We have to support more
x, more y, more you know, they're every
other group. And Mhmm. The idea that we
that that supporting one group doesn't
minimize support for another group is really important
to understand. And and,
you know, fathers and fatherhood and men in
(23:31):
general, we we have, you know, incredibly the
statistics are are heartbreaking. You know? The highest
level of
suicide, of
of drug abuse, of irritation, of jail. Mhmm.
You know? All of these things. And so
men are hurting, and hurt men hurt others.
So we're actually supporting all of society
(23:51):
by supporting them. Right? So to answer that's
a little bit of a side note, but
to answer your question directly,
leaders have a responsibility
to name it. And then all the other
things they can do come second.
But if we don't name that these things
exist,
then especially as leaders,
people who we almost by definition have some
(24:13):
power over in terms of their job,
it's much more challenging
for
individuals
to sort of speak out and say, hey.
I need this, or I want this, or
I hurt.
Right? So if we name it another thing
start to build a community is important. Go
ahead. I'm sorry. Yeah. Yeah.
Yeah. No. I was gonna say another thing
that I kinda have seen firsthand is, like,
(24:35):
leaders need to live it too when applicable.
Right? But, like Mhmm. But,
you know, Kai and I see that firsthand
from Wendy is is finding time for family.
Yeah. Big time. Right? So while Wendy is
a mother and now a grandmother, she is
living, you know, integrating family into work, and
(24:56):
we're I find that and using that when
applicable into fatherhood as well. Yeah.
Absolutely. If I just I won't I won't
can I go ahead and say it real
quick? Because I don't I don't wanna take
us too far astray, but that living it
piece is so important
because it also adds to the changing story
of men's roles.
Because by living it
(25:17):
I don't know if you meant this, but
I hear it this way. By living it
is a leader being vulnerable,
a leader sharing Oh, yeah. Yeah. If they're
a parent,
my kid kept me up all night. I'm
a little tired Can someone step up and
take over for me today or whatever it
would be appropriate? But the idea that leadership
and especially leadership
(25:37):
up till and including today
Is based on a pretty male dominated
you know, sort of patriarchal
design. And if men
choose to if we choose to grow and
be more connected and related,
we can do leadership differently. So that's a
whole other conversation,
but just the idea of living it is
(25:58):
being vulnerable.
That is strength.
You know? That is Yeah. That is a
real level of connection and partnership
that I believe leaders need to display more
and more. Absolutely. So so well said. So
beautifully said. And I think that is a
bright future that I want to kind of
work towards. Right? And I guess maybe this
is the segue speaking of working towards or
(26:21):
traditional,
masculinity.
But, you know, before we get to this
exercise that you're gonna lead, Greg and I
Sue, which we're so excited about, I really
wanted you to kinda tell tell the listeners
about, the myth of the hero
and the quiet journey of fatherhood that you
that you is kinda sometimes is the backbone
of of of kind of what you do.
Can you talk to us a little bit
about that?
Absolutely. And and, you know,
(26:43):
I'll I love the way you wrote the
myth of the hero because I feel like
that's really important because we do. We have
this
hero worship in our culture, and, you know,
there's a lot of reasons where that came
from and what that, you know, does and
the impact it has. But for my in
in my research and the work that I
do, there's a narrative. There's a story
(27:06):
that has been named the hero's journey. A
lot of people that you know, listeners might
know it, and if they don't, they still
know.
Right? The the narrative or the arc and
the plot line of the hero's journey is
something that is you know, it's Star Wars.
It's every Pixar movie. It's Lord of the
Rings. It's Harry Potter. Right? Thing I love.
Here. Yeah. Me too. And I love it.
(27:27):
I wrote my dissertation on it. You know?
And and the first fifteen years of my
career,
I designed entire interventions and strategies and, you
know, worked with families. You know, the questions
that I ask individuals in therapy were based
on the hero's journey. Like, it I love
it.
Yeah. And I just wanna pause just to
give a little bit of context to the
hero's journey is Done. It's it's so intrinsic
(27:51):
in storytelling,
and it's something that is ingrained in, like
you said, a lot of movies. So it's
something that we're very familiar with. It tells
a little bit about, like, the underdog. Right?
And it's about, like,
these epic
quests, right, that the this underdog is partaking
in. Just to give some of the listeners
who were like, what are they talking about?
You get a little bit little bit of
(28:12):
context as to that hero's journey, I think,
is important. So go on. Yeah.
Absolutely. No. And that's really important because it
is. Even if we don't know the term,
everyone recognizes it. In fact, as I was
developing Journeyman, I would do I was doing
workshops. I was seeing clients. I was doing
some speaking. And I almost always start with
a question.
What's your favorite adventure story, real or fictional,
(28:34):
right now?
And after asking thousands of people that, I
always got
some version of the hero's journey.
Right?
People would say Star Wars, or they would
say, That time I got lost on the
mountain,
or
one version or another, which
in my younger days in my career, I
would pat myself in the back and say,
(28:54):
Good. I'm right. This story is important. Let's
use it. And that's where our culture has
gone. Right? It is used I mean, again,
I have worked with someone who writes for
Pixel,
and they have an outline of the hero's
journey
that they use to make every single film.
Right? And so it is ubiquitous. It is
everywhere.
(29:15):
And stories
develop and support and guide our realities.
And so if you think it's about a
story that is so dominant,
it actually pushes away potential for other stories,
right? And so like I mentioned earlier about
naming things and the leader what leaders'
responsibility is because we don't even notice the
(29:37):
roles of men, we have to name, like,
oh, my favorite story
is a dominant one that might be oppressive
to other possibilities and potentialities,
but let me think about that.
And with that, Journeyman was born because the
sort of
insight and research came to, for me,
is to a point where I really see
(29:58):
now that the hero's journey being the backbone
of of our modern day myth
is actually quite damaging to men and to
boys,
right? Because if we're not epic, if we're
not legendary, what are we? And if we
really look at these characters, yes, there's an
underdog, but the underdog often is then elevated,
(30:18):
right, and elevated to become a hero or
a prince or a king, who then gets
to write history and tell everybody what's good
and bad right or wrong evil and and
Whatever and what about all what about all
the the peasants? What about all the people
who stayed and didn't go on a grand
adventure?
Right, they're heroes
They're the people who are keeping hearts burning.
(30:39):
They keep people who are wiping butts doing
dishes and chopping wood
They have they think there's some magic and
adventure in their lives as well and the
hero's journey at its core, speaks to some
of that, but it's only half the story.
Right? It doesn't Mhmm. Really support this level
of understanding meaning making and values and, you
know, this idea of you know, I often
(31:02):
say the magic is in the mop. It's
not just about getting to the top of
the mountain. It's along the way, and that's
where we find our treasures. And,
and so
for me, I I started looking back and,
you know, you joke that it's those are
the stories we all love, which is true.
And then I looked back, and I said,
my favorite scenes in all of the books
and movies
(31:22):
weren't for me, it wasn't the the swashbuckling,
the dragon fighting, the the swordplay.
It was the gathering. Even as a kid,
you know, I I loved
when the scene where in
in in The Hobbit where they meet Slider
at the at the tavern or the cantina
scene in Star Wars or, you know, any
number of things. Those were always my favorite.
(31:43):
In pints? Exact yes.
And why do people go to these places?
Let's take alcohol out of the story.
Why do we go? We go to CNBC.
We go to share stories.
We go to
develop
new skills and relationships we go to get,
you know information from the shady guy in
the corner You know, we go to get
(32:04):
rested and nourished all of these things. And
so for me
I started developing
Sort of what I originally called adventure's other
half It was the other half of the
hero's journey story and created an entire narrative
and plot line and model
that really helps men to support that element
of their story writing.
(32:26):
Right? And by doing that, we
if we think about all of the greatest
hero's journey of adventures, you know, Lord of
the Rings, Star Wars,
only when the hero is getting stomped on
do we then get maybe a three minute
montage of their backstory of why they're doing
it, what they care about, what's important, you
know, all of those things.
(32:48):
And that three minutes is really important,
But it's undeveloped and if we think about
outside of the movie and you think about
culture
It's undeveloped there as well. We all want
to be epic. We all want it, you
know, whatever
But what's the you know, chop wood, carry
water moment? What's the why? What's the the
element of what I do is magical and
(33:09):
and adventurous
even when I'm cleaning the bathroom?
And and how can that be something that
I can lean into? Because then when the
opportunity
arises to be epic, I'm ready.
And I also don't need to. I don't
get I don't need to.
Go ahead. Yeah. Yeah. And I don't Kai,
I bet you this kind of resonates with
you similarly in that Kai and I are
(33:31):
both musicians. Kai and I are in our
twenties. We're really pounding the pavement
being musicians, and things have changed for us.
Right?
And I don't know. Kai, if you've had
this, but, like, I've kinda had this, like,
re I've had to
really reshift and reevaluate
what being a musician looks like
now that it's sharing the stage with fatherhood,
(33:52):
pun intended there.
Yeah. Do you know what I mean? Like,
there's, like, there's these two identities that they
can't just be separate. Right? Mhmm. So how
to integrate them. And the musician part of
me was definitely living
the hero's journey when I was 22 and
in a van.
Right? And I was slaying the dragons, was
(34:12):
getting on stage and playing all the different
venues. Right?
So now that I'm a father and I'm
doing that less,
right, like, is that could be damaging to
someone. Right? Like, someone living this kind of
epic life in early adulthood and going into
fatherhood and having that kind of
the rug pulled from their feet.
(34:33):
So being able to find
that time to still be a musician and
still do those things,
but integrating it into fatherhood and,
acknowledging that, yeah, I'm gonna do this a
little bit less. I'm gonna you know, I'm
not gonna be traveling as much as I
did.
I don't know. Let me throw that over
to you, Kyle. Like, does that resonate and
does that resonate with maybe other listeners, right,
(34:55):
like, in a different field? Yeah. Right? Absolutely.
I I think for me, it's just, like,
retaining
retaining my sense of self because I don't
I don't feel any different
as a as a person. Like and I
and that's so funny when I say that
because I think a lot of parents are
like, yeah. Yeah. Like, I still feel like
that person I've always been is just like
your priorities have shifted. And for me, it's
(35:15):
just like, you know, at the end of
the day,
there's only so many hours. Was I able
to find that hour or two for Yeah.
Some music for myself is I think where
I kinda feel it. And, you know, I
think what's really interesting about this, the hero's
journey is or the myth thereof is kind
of like how you bring that back to
the is it part of the group work
that you do? Is that that's correct, Jason,
with in terms of so it's like it's
(35:37):
unpacking those moments in the hero's journey where
they were instead of fighting, they were at
the table having a pint and just
talking talking about someone. So I I guess
through through that work with the group mentality,
what kind of things,
like, kinda come to life, through, like, kind
of the group group talks?
Well, I I I I wanna go back
to something you said before where you said,
like, I don't feel any different as a
(35:58):
person. It's just the priorities have shifted. Right?
Yeah. There's a real you know, I would
say there's a real truth to that as
well as something that is a little bit
heartbreaking for me
Because
Mhmm. When we take on the identity of
fatherhood,
we are changed. And
we are lacking in so many ways in
(36:18):
our culture
different whether we call them rituals or shifts
or identity
changes,
rites of passage,
these kinds of things,
in so many ways, we're missing that, our
culture.
We have some token
events for kids when they're turning into
teenagers. We have 16,
the bar mitzvahs, or
(36:39):
but we don't have that party. Yeah, where
is my party? Exactly.
We have another we have baby showers maybe
for moms,
and there are things called blessing ways for
moms, and it's this idea of
gathering into this new identity.
Well, in other cultures, other times, men have
had that, right? It's a pretty massive developmental
(37:01):
shift to go from
boy,
an adolescent, to a young man who
I used to joke, I
was a dude, then I was a boyfriend,
then I was a husband, then I was
a father.
And my dude self sometimes wants to come
out more.
And and the resolution of my dude self
(37:21):
with my father self
is sometimes a real struggle. It leads to
me staying up too late sometimes. It leads
to me not always making the best choices.
It you know? And it takes away from
some of the connections that are in the
center of my values.
And so reconciling those stories is so fascinating,
so important. So, again, going back to your
(37:42):
question, in the group work we do,
men are able to start reconciling that. They
can be honest about it. They can, you
know, share, you know, like,
I went out with some buddies for the
weekend, and we went to a concert, and
we went camping. And, you know, it was
nice it was nice to be away, but
it was nice to come home. And how
do, you know, how do I bring
the the sort of treasures or or experiences
(38:04):
or insights
from maybe a a weekend with the boys
into my everyday life with my kids? I
mean, that's it's a big change. That's a
shift.
Mhmm.
Yeah. Yeah. Then now it's resonating
so hard. I think what I'm hearing is
maybe I haven't accepted that I've changed or
maybe I haven't you know what I mean?
Like,
(38:25):
the idea of my prioritizing shift is maybe
more my how I literally think about things,
but, like, chemically, I'm sure there's something happening
in my brain. I've literally changed. When I
look at Miles sometimes,
like, you just
fill with with joy and when he hits
you with a when he hits you with
a hitting hand
and you have to remind him that this
(38:46):
is a
gentle hand, I'm surged with a little bit
of anger that I have to tamper down
and have to practice patience. Right? So there's
I guess there is a lot of change
happening, which I don't know. Maybe this is
a is this a good segue into maybe
the the activity you wanted to take us
through?
That sounds perfect.
(39:09):
Thanks for listening to this is your job
now, produced by me, Kai. If this episode
made you think or made you feel, we
hope it also made you realize you don't
have to figure this out all alone. Leadership
today is about presence, not perfection. To learn
more, follow Wendy Wollner on LinkedIn, subscribe to
Balancing Life's Issues on YouTube, or stream the
podcast wherever you listen. Because if you're leading
people, this is your job now. Anything else
(39:31):
to add, Miles?
I was a dude, then I was a
boyfriend, then I was a husband, then I
was a father. You know? And and my
dude self sometimes wants to come out more.
And and the resolution of my dude self
with my father self is sometimes a real
struggle.
Hi. I'm Kai Sorensen, director of podcast here
(00:24):
at Balancing Life's Issues. And welcome to a
very special two part drop of This Is
Your Job Now.
If you've listened to this show before, you
know we talk a lot about real leadership,
the kind that shows up for the whole
person, the total individual.
And in this conversation with doctor Jason Frishman,
we're taking that idea into fresh
fatherhood, mental health, and why well-being isn't just
(00:44):
about fixing what's broken. It's about intentionally building
what helps us thrive. Jason's a clinical psychologist,
guide, and father who's spent decades helping men
connect with themselves and each other in ways
that challenge old stories about what it means
to quote, unquote man up. In part one,
we're going to talk about why fathers need
community, what it looks like to challenge outdated
ideas of masculinity,
(01:05):
and how leaders, yes, even those who are
not dads, can create supportive spaces that help
people show up as their full selves at
work and at home. In part two, Jason
will guide you, especially the fathers tuning in,
through a practical exercise called the values compass.
If you can find fifteen quiet minutes, you'll
be able to pause, reflect, and map out
what really matters most for you, your family
(01:26):
and the way you lead.
So settle in. This is your moment to
breathe, to listen, and maybe to see fatherhood
and well-being
in a whole new way because showing up
for the total individual
is your job now. Let's get started.
Welcome to This Is Your Job Now because
leadership means showing up, especially when it's uncomfortable.
Today's guest is Jason Frishman,
(01:47):
therapist, facilitator, and founder of the Journeyman Foundation.
He's built a space where men, especially dads,
can be real about what they're going through,
not just as parents, but as people, which
is why Greg and I are here leading
this discussion as opposed to Wendy because we
are brand new dads. We're not brand new.
What am I talking about? Greg, tell us
a little bit about,
your current family life, and then I'll I'll
(02:08):
go into mine before we bring in Jason.
Yeah. I've
got a lovely,
wife and two children,
two daughters. They, in a month, they will
be four and two.
My wife and I have, a son who's
gonna be two at the June, and that
will bring us to our guest. Jason, welcome
to this is your job now.
(02:29):
Excellent. Thank you all so much, and I'm
really glad to be here. I'll follow suit
and say I have two sons, wife and
two sons. We live here in, rural Vermont,
and
they are 17 and 14. Well, here we
are. You know, we're Greg and I are
both deeply curious about the work you do
with fathers. So I guess tell us a
little bit about what you do, how you
got there, and I guess
(02:49):
maybe at the end of that question, you
know, why should leaders care about fatherhood? That's
the question. Right? But, you know, a little
background is
I've been a psychologist for thirty years
practicing
primarily as a psychotherapist.
And so for the vast majority of that
time, I've worked with boys, families, and men.
And as my career has moved on,
(03:12):
I've worked more and more with men and
fathers and become really passionate about
the sort of mental health, social health, connective
health of men and men's.
And so that became
really a passion in my psychotherapy practice. My
my caseload sort of evolved. I saw more
and more men, more and more men who
(03:32):
were
doodads.
And and really this idea
of fathering as a verb became really important
to me. Like, as men, what are we
fathering? What are we bringing
to to the table? And and so,
about 2019,
2018,
before the pandemic, I started Journeyman as a
coaching program mostly to be able to bring
(03:54):
the work out of the psychotherapy space for
lots of really
different and and powerful reasons. But primarily, as
a coach,
we have a little bit more freedom to
work outside
the sort of realm of the office. Metaphorically
and literally, we can be out of the
therapy office. Which brings me to your question
around leadership and why should leaders care about
(04:16):
fathers
is because we are out of the office.
We're at home. We're at work. We're you
know, when you hold the role and the
identity of a father, you don't put it
down for work, right? You don't
leave it when you go out with your
friends. You don't you know, it's always there.
And so,
as leaders, if we help men integrate that
(04:36):
role and that identity
into the other areas and arenas of their
lives,
everything
gets better.
When we heal men, we heal our our
our communities and our cultures and whatnot.
Yeah. So I guess it may got me
thinking of, like, is there a recent example?
Maybe we can all provide one of where
fatherhood moment, and now I have to go
(04:57):
to work, and maybe I wasn't able to
leave
fatherhood at the table, or maybe I shouldn't
have left fatherhood, you know, at the door.
So, like, Greg, is anything coming to mind
recently of father bleeding into work?
Sure.
I mean, there's many times where I forget
to lock the door to this
space that I'm currently in right now that
I work work from. And, I I work
(05:19):
from home, and,
my eldest daughter finds her way in. And
she has joined many a meeting where I've
been like, oh, please excuse me. There's a
toddler in the background. She's just hanging. Give
me just
fifteen seconds. Just give me some grace here,
and,
I'm very thankful that I, for the most
part, we're in a environment, Kai, and you
(05:40):
could speak to this too, that
that
is very much part of our culture of
finding that flexibility and understanding
that we take every bit of life that
is thrown our way and integrate it into
our work environment. So for that, we're very
fortunate. But, yeah, I think there also sometimes,
you know, this job isn't exactly nine to
(06:01):
five. Right? We get the calls at
six, 06:30, sometimes seven. Right?
So there have been times where I've been
going down the street or just recently,
was with my daughter. She was going for
a bike ride down the street, then I
was walking alongside her, and I got a
call. It was a little bit after hours,
and I picked it up and I said,
hi. I'm so glad you called. I know
(06:23):
this is a time sensitive,
thing, but just just so you know, there's
a toddler in tow, so you might hear
some of that. And if our conversation gets
interrupted
briefly, I do apologize. But,
you know, those are just some examples of,
integrating fatherhood into work and vice versa. Just
that flexibility is so important.
Yeah. And I think, Jason, I think the
(06:44):
question I wanna add too because I
those same anecdotes and more for myself, I
think more recently might have been more about,
like, just sleep, like,
lack thereof, maybe kind of bringing that kind
of fatigue to the workplace. So I think,
Jason, over to you, though, the question I
have is is for leaders who are not
flexible or who are not empathetic to that
that version of a person who's who's in
(07:06):
the office today, who's maybe sleep deprived or
at home working because the kids are sick
and the you know? What what does that
do to, like, maybe the psychological safety of
someone in the workplace who doesn't feel like
they have that support from leadership? Okay. It's
that's such a huge question, you know, because
as soon as you said that, I I
sort of went in a lot of different
directions because,
(07:27):
you know, the idea of what it does
to psychological safety is so important to, like,
being an efficient and effective worker and and
being present with all of your your colleagues
and all of those things. And, also,
it sends a bigger message
to that individual man for when he's at
home as well. Right? Where, basically, when leaders
aren't empathetic to the situation of fatherhood,
(07:49):
we are basically
suggesting
or strong arming
you must be separate. You must create different
identities. You must be at work, then you
must be at home. And definitely don't bring,
you know, bring work home, but don't bring
home to work. Right? Like, that becomes a
message that
is painful
for so many men. And so psychological safety,
(08:12):
it sort of
the
un
the aunt's ease
of that moves from work to home and
vice versa, and so men carry that. That
becomes an extra
weight on top of many of the other
things that fathers specifically are holding. And so,
you know, at work,
(08:33):
guys will be distracted.
They're likely not going to be, you know,
as free to be connected. Like, you know,
Greg, when you gave your example, you say,
yeah. You know, there's a toddler in tow,
so if I get distracted, I'll tell you.
Right? So you're suggesting something in the very
beginning that then gives explicit permission in both
directions to be like, hey. Hold on a
minute. Let me do this.
(08:54):
You know?
I loved as a result of the pandemic
and everything lots of things being on Zoom,
I I sort of have loved watching,
where in the middle of of some meeting,
not therapy sessions. That's different. But in the
middle of of some meeting, a kid comes
in the back door or someone's screaming or,
you know, those kind of things. And there
there's been a bit of a shift, and
(09:15):
I think it's a good thing. But
without it, it is yeah. It it it
impacts it's a downward spiral. It impacts workers,
the community, and the culture at work, and
it impacts the community culture at home for
a father. It seems like
like a lot of the work you do
is challenging this traditional norm of of fathers
(09:36):
in the workplace. Right? I'm father at home,
and I am man working in the workplace.
So I guess with the work you do,
how do you how do you challenge that
norm? And, like, what what kind of challenges
do you see with people coming
to kind of this where where you're at
with all of this?
Well, I, you know, I I think
(09:56):
the first piece of challenging any norm is
identifying it and seeing it. Right? The idea
of
typical norms that we all live in, it's
like, you know, a fish, like, swimming in
water. Right? It doesn't recognize it's in water.
We don't often think about the air we
breathe.
And the stories and the norms and the
behavior the patterns
(10:17):
of sort of modern day fatherhood
are things that we don't actually think about
that often. We may think about, oh, this
is stressful. Oh, I marinated.
But we don't take the time to identify,
recognize, and
kind of explore
these dominant kind of norms and ways of
being. And so the very first thing is
(10:38):
I asked a lot of questions about what
it's like and how does that impact, and
let's learn let's let's name that. Right? When
you say this norm, right,
maybe it is the nonempathetic
norm. You know? We name it. Because now
once we name it, we have something to
reference, and we have a language. Right? The
three of us now, if I say the
nonempathetic norm, you know exactly what I'm talking.
(11:00):
And so Right. Right. I can and and
once I do that, I can recognize it
more, and I can be aware of it.
I can notice how that feels. I can
notice how it feels when I'm doing well
or when I'm not doing well, when I'm,
you know, when I'm fed and not or
hungry. You know? They they have different impact
on our interactions with others have different impacts
on us based on what's been going on.
(11:21):
If I leave for work after having a
big argument with my partner,
I'm gonna show up at work slightly differently.
If I come home after being yelled at
by my boss, I'm gonna show up at
home
very differently.
And so the idea of challenging these norms
is to help guys first understand them and
notice them. And then second,
(11:42):
be at a place in their own sort
of self awareness
that they can understand what choices they can
make
that might be different and that might bring
them to a more connected place,
which is really ultimately, in many ways, the
goal.
Yeah. Yeah. No. That that all makes sense.
And, Greg, I'm super curious what you think
about this because I know with my generation,
(12:04):
millennial, 37, at the time of this recording,
it does feel like at least in my
community of friends who have fathers. And I
think culturally,
there is more of a shift to, I
think, fathers
taking more of
a hands on role in parenting,
with nurturing, I think, especially.
So I don't know. That's definitely been my
(12:25):
experience. Like, my wife was not interested in,
a family if it wasn't as much of
a fifty fifty split as possible. And I
we both admit right now with a toddler,
it's closer to sixty forty in terms
of mom need needing mom, which we're working
on.
But, yeah, Greg, I'm curious. Has that been
your experience just kinda, like, within your,
(12:47):
I guess, norm, like, what the air I
am currently breathing and maybe trying to identify
it? Totally. And, you know, similarly, Kai, we
there is more of a gravitation
from them to mom as well right now
where it's like, mom has to, like
she has to prepare the meal right now
for whatever reason. Like, so I'm not break.
(13:09):
Yeah. Like, for whatever reason, I can't do
it according to my eldest. She's like, no,
daddy. You can't do that. It has to
be for mom.
But to your point, yeah,
the the expectation is definitely
that,
I'm as equally involved and available as, humanly
possible. And,
you know, I don't think we ever, like
(13:29):
my wife and I ever sat down and
had that conversation,
but we were definitely on the same page.
And we've mentioned it from time to time
of, you know, like,
finding the time to be equally there and
just interesting to see.
I don't have the the studies.
Maybe we could do this after to support
this, but there is something about, you know,
(13:50):
how many diapers are changed by fathers as
generations progress. Right?
And, you know, going back to,
you know, the the the fathers of baby
boomers changed, like, rarely any diapers and then,
you know, so forth. There's been more involvement
there. So that's just, like, an interesting
kind of perspective of, like,
(14:11):
how fathers are involved in very small ways
that, Kai, to you and I feel like
no brainer, like a, yeah, a diaper change.
No problem. Right? Like, of course.
But I do I do remember, like, when
Miles was first born,
I think we live in a pretty pretty
neutral community. There's a good mix of, you
know, conservative values, liberal values, and I think
(14:34):
it's a very nice community. But when I
when Miles was first born, I do remember
getting strange looks because I would have Miles
strapped to me in the harness,
you know, at the grocery store or or
at the community
music
thing that was going on, definitely from an
older community. Like, interesting.
That seems more of, like, a maternal role
(14:54):
that this person I wonder what he's all
about. Right? It's like you could just see
the gears turning, which is super interesting. So
I think this is leading me to asking
you, Jason, going back to leaders creating these
supportive environments. Like, as the times change, it
seems like as leaders, we need to be
aware of this too that
fathers are playing more of a role nowadays.
(15:16):
Absolutely.
You know, even more than leaders
needing to be more aware,
leaders need to be leading. Right? Like, this
is a change. And what's interesting and I
don't remember the exact percentage, so I'm not
gonna state it incorrectly just in case. But
there's some huge percentage,
statistically, that fathers are spending more time nurturing
(15:38):
and caring and and being with their kids.
But the interesting thing about that statistic
is that
there aren't
that a proportionally
a proportionate
level of resources for fathers who are now
staying home doing things that they were not
trained by their own fathers today. To no
(15:59):
fault of the fathers, but but, like, let's
just say we're home and we're engaged 300%
more than in the fifties.
That means we have 300%
more opportunity
grew up.
You know? And it's an interesting shift. I
don't mean it that way because it's a
lovely thing, and I'm all for it. But
we're now at home. We are all well
(16:20):
meaning. We're, you know, we're carrying our kids.
We're changing diapers. We're doing all those things,
And yet we're still holding these old stories
and old norms about what fatherhood is, about
what masculinity is. And
we have this need to really
support and educate and and really guide,
fathers who are willing to sort of take
(16:41):
that journey. So to your question about leaders,
the idea that leaders become more aware that
fathers are
even
if we're at work, we're thinking about our
kids more than just the obligatory picture on
your desk. And so Yeah. You know, are
there resource groups? Are there supports? Are there
(17:02):
you know, is there time that structures put
in that fathers can, you know, in honestly,
in service of being a
better employee,
a more effective man, a more related human,
this is a place that at work that
that can happen really effectively,
and it's win win for everyone.
(17:23):
Yeah. And I I think that kinda gets
me back to kinda the work you do
because I know Greg and I have remarked
even before you were on our radars that,
you know, we're both the first and, Greg,
you'll correct me if I'm miss misspeaking, but
I think we're both the first of our
friend groups, to have kids. So when it
like, because the close friends I have who
have children are back in Nebraska, and this
(17:45):
has been going on for a while. Right?
I moved to the East Coast, and life
is a little different. And, you know, there
was a real sense of loneliness, especially with
my core group of friends who I, you
know, I tour with in a band that
although they're very happy for me and they're
so supportive, there's just there's just
that that little piece, that disconnect that they're
not support can't really be there in certain
ways because of that lived experience. And
(18:08):
enter Greg, who I'd worked with for years
and in another job, and now he's he's
back here. Well, the one of the first
things that I benefited greatly from Greg was
just this idea of, like, oh, man. Last
night was rough.
And, like, Greg being able to say, like,
oh, yeah. I've been there. You know? And,
you know, Greg is that has been your
experience as well. I'm Yeah. Yeah. We have
very similar lived experience there because similarly,
(18:30):
also in a
band, bandmates don't have children
either. So there's you know? And as you
said, supportive,
but they don't they're just missing that, like,
the stuff that happens behind the scenes that,
like, I can't really go to them to
talk about
because they can't relate to it. They'll listen.
They're open to hearing it, but,
(18:51):
we we Kai, I'm, like, searching for someone
to be like, yo,
you're in it with me. You get it.
Right? So, like, Kai, you're one of, like,
the very few people that I can go
to about that sort of thing, and
I think this is a perfect segue, Jason,
for you, which is that, like,
there's that need for, like,
father father connection. Right? There's gotta be, like,
(19:13):
that, that community of just, like, fathers being
able to speak to each other
and just have that relation. Right?
Absolutely. I'll just quick quick anecdote before we
get to the community piece, and and I
think I know where you're going with that.
But, you know, my dearest One of my
dearest oldest friends, we've known each other for
since we were 12. I'm 51 now. And
(19:35):
he When my 17 year old was born,
coincidentally,
he moved to the area.
No kids at the time, wasn't married. And
so, like, I had a newborn, and he'd
call in, like, a Wednesday at ten and
be like, hey. Do you wanna come meet
me? We're going out. I'm like Mhmm. Oh,
no. I'm I don't wanna do that. You
know? You can't even come over here because
I'm going to bed when I come to
(19:56):
bed. Right. And
he was great. I mean, he he understood
and whatever, but like you're saying, there's a
certain limit. Right? Like, there's a certain under
you know, there's a lived experience. And so
the idea of building community,
you know, it doesn't mean that every father
is automatically going to be your deepest, truest
friend.
But having that
(20:17):
level of
safety and community to be able to dare
lived experience, to be able to come in
from that sort of adventure of fatherhood and
go, oh my. Yeah. You you wanna hear
what happened today? My gosh. Right? Like and
and
what I you know, some of the work
that I do at Journeyman, our our sort
of motto is, you know, your journey is
(20:39):
our journey. Your work is our one.
And that really speaks to this, you know,
someone will come in and, let's say, spend
an entire hour
sharing what's going on for them and then
go, oh, I'm so sorry. I just took
the whole hour. And, you know, the response
that I don't even have to say anymore,
but from another man is saying, did you
notice that everybody's head was bobbing the whole
time? Did you notice that just by you
(21:01):
sharing your story, we're all growing?
And so
the idea of being able to do that
in a place that feels okay is affirming
of, you know,
this is a fatherhood space, and it's it's
okay. And and and we can talk about,
like,
all of the ridiculous
stuff that happens, you know,
(21:22):
share some dad jokes and all of these
things. But I I think that is
incredibly important, whether it's at work, whether it's
outside of work or in your community or
through a men's group.
Mhmm.
Yeah. And I and I guess maybe off
the top of your head, you know, is
for leaders, is it is it about creating
those spaces, like, at the workplace? Like, Greg
(21:43):
and I just came about it naturally because
we're we've been friends for a while, but
it I mean, we rarely text outside of
work because if I text Greg,
it's maybe a video didn't upload or Wendy
you know what I mean? So I'm careful
about that. But, you know, for Greg, it
it came across naturally, but there's been such
a level of empathy that we have for
one another,
at at this time in our lives that
(22:04):
it's not that, like, you're excusing
maybe something got in an hour later, but
there's just there's the benefit of the doubt
is there. Right? And I think that's so
important
in the workplace of just trusting
that the people are people are there to
to work and to to enjoy themselves, but
it does take that kind of, I don't
know, like, removing of of this wall we
put up when we come into work and
(22:26):
we're not ourselves anymore. So I guess
what's the leader's role in, like, helping create
that environment? I you know, there there's a
couple of different pieces, but the first thing
that you know, when I've talked with leaders
and really sort of challenged them is to
name things name it explicitly.
Right? Like, the there is so much that
in sort of men's work, men's health, men's,
(22:48):
you know, fatherhood roles, that doesn't get spoken.
Or if it does, it gets
explicitly
shot down.
Right?
Because there's such a growth in the roles
of men these days, which I think is
absolutely important,
there's also at the same time this you
know, I I've heard numerous times when I
(23:10):
say I work with men,
I've heard people say, well, we have to
support more women. We have to support more
x, more y, more you know, they're every
other group. And Mhmm. The idea that we
that that supporting one group doesn't
minimize support for another group is really important
to understand. And and,
you know, fathers and fatherhood and men in
(23:31):
general, we we have, you know, incredibly the
statistics are are heartbreaking. You know? The highest
level of
suicide, of
of drug abuse, of irritation, of jail. Mhmm.
You know? All of these things. And so
men are hurting, and hurt men hurt others.
So we're actually supporting all of society
(23:51):
by supporting them. Right? So to answer that's
a little bit of a side note, but
to answer your question directly,
leaders have a responsibility
to name it. And then all the other
things they can do come second.
But if we don't name that these things
exist,
then especially as leaders,
people who we almost by definition have some
(24:13):
power over in terms of their job,
it's much more challenging
for
individuals
to sort of speak out and say, hey.
I need this, or I want this, or
I hurt.
Right? So if we name it another thing
start to build a community is important. Go
ahead. I'm sorry. Yeah. Yeah.
Yeah. No. I was gonna say another thing
that I kinda have seen firsthand is, like,
(24:35):
leaders need to live it too when applicable.
Right? But, like Mhmm. But,
you know, Kai and I see that firsthand
from Wendy is is finding time for family.
Yeah. Big time. Right? So while Wendy is
a mother and now a grandmother, she is
living, you know, integrating family into work, and
(24:56):
we're I find that and using that when
applicable into fatherhood as well. Yeah.
Absolutely. If I just I won't I won't
can I go ahead and say it real
quick? Because I don't I don't wanna take
us too far astray, but that living it
piece is so important
because it also adds to the changing story
of men's roles.
Because by living it
(25:17):
I don't know if you meant this, but
I hear it this way. By living it
is a leader being vulnerable,
a leader sharing Oh, yeah. Yeah. If they're
a parent,
my kid kept me up all night. I'm
a little tired Can someone step up and
take over for me today or whatever it
would be appropriate? But the idea that leadership
and especially leadership
(25:37):
up till and including today
Is based on a pretty male dominated
you know, sort of patriarchal
design. And if men
choose to if we choose to grow and
be more connected and related,
we can do leadership differently. So that's a
whole other conversation,
but just the idea of living it is
(25:58):
being vulnerable.
That is strength.
You know? That is Yeah. That is a
real level of connection and partnership
that I believe leaders need to display more
and more. Absolutely. So so well said. So
beautifully said. And I think that is a
bright future that I want to kind of
work towards. Right? And I guess maybe this
is the segue speaking of working towards or
(26:21):
traditional,
masculinity.
But, you know, before we get to this
exercise that you're gonna lead, Greg and I
Sue, which we're so excited about, I really
wanted you to kinda tell tell the listeners
about, the myth of the hero
and the quiet journey of fatherhood that you
that you is kinda sometimes is the backbone
of of of kind of what you do.
Can you talk to us a little bit
about that?
Absolutely. And and, you know,
(26:43):
I'll I love the way you wrote the
myth of the hero because I feel like
that's really important because we do. We have
this
hero worship in our culture, and, you know,
there's a lot of reasons where that came
from and what that, you know, does and
the impact it has. But for my in
in my research and the work that I
do, there's a narrative. There's a story
(27:06):
that has been named the hero's journey. A
lot of people that you know, listeners might
know it, and if they don't, they still
know.
Right? The the narrative or the arc and
the plot line of the hero's journey is
something that is you know, it's Star Wars.
It's every Pixar movie. It's Lord of the
Rings. It's Harry Potter. Right? Thing I love.
Here. Yeah. Me too. And I love it.
(27:27):
I wrote my dissertation on it. You know?
And and the first fifteen years of my
career,
I designed entire interventions and strategies and, you
know, worked with families. You know, the questions
that I ask individuals in therapy were based
on the hero's journey. Like, it I love
it.
Yeah. And I just wanna pause just to
give a little bit of context to the
hero's journey is Done. It's it's so intrinsic
(27:51):
in storytelling,
and it's something that is ingrained in, like
you said, a lot of movies. So it's
something that we're very familiar with. It tells
a little bit about, like, the underdog. Right?
And it's about, like,
these epic
quests, right, that the this underdog is partaking
in. Just to give some of the listeners
who were like, what are they talking about?
You get a little bit little bit of
(28:12):
context as to that hero's journey, I think,
is important. So go on. Yeah.
Absolutely. No. And that's really important because it
is. Even if we don't know the term,
everyone recognizes it. In fact, as I was
developing Journeyman, I would do I was doing
workshops. I was seeing clients. I was doing
some speaking. And I almost always start with
a question.
What's your favorite adventure story, real or fictional,
(28:34):
right now?
And after asking thousands of people that, I
always got
some version of the hero's journey.
Right?
People would say Star Wars, or they would
say, That time I got lost on the
mountain,
or
one version or another, which
in my younger days in my career, I
would pat myself in the back and say,
(28:54):
Good. I'm right. This story is important. Let's
use it. And that's where our culture has
gone. Right? It is used I mean, again,
I have worked with someone who writes for
Pixel,
and they have an outline of the hero's
journey
that they use to make every single film.
Right? And so it is ubiquitous. It is
everywhere.
(29:15):
And stories
develop and support and guide our realities.
And so if you think it's about a
story that is so dominant,
it actually pushes away potential for other stories,
right? And so like I mentioned earlier about
naming things and the leader what leaders'
responsibility is because we don't even notice the
(29:37):
roles of men, we have to name, like,
oh, my favorite story
is a dominant one that might be oppressive
to other possibilities and potentialities,
but let me think about that.
And with that, Journeyman was born because the
sort of
insight and research came to, for me,
is to a point where I really see
(29:58):
now that the hero's journey being the backbone
of of our modern day myth
is actually quite damaging to men and to
boys,
right? Because if we're not epic, if we're
not legendary, what are we? And if we
really look at these characters, yes, there's an
underdog, but the underdog often is then elevated,
(30:18):
right, and elevated to become a hero or
a prince or a king, who then gets
to write history and tell everybody what's good
and bad right or wrong evil and and
Whatever and what about all what about all
the the peasants? What about all the people
who stayed and didn't go on a grand
adventure?
Right, they're heroes
They're the people who are keeping hearts burning.
(30:39):
They keep people who are wiping butts doing
dishes and chopping wood
They have they think there's some magic and
adventure in their lives as well and the
hero's journey at its core, speaks to some
of that, but it's only half the story.
Right? It doesn't Mhmm. Really support this level
of understanding meaning making and values and, you
know, this idea of you know, I often
(31:02):
say the magic is in the mop. It's
not just about getting to the top of
the mountain. It's along the way, and that's
where we find our treasures. And,
and so
for me, I I started looking back and,
you know, you joke that it's those are
the stories we all love, which is true.
And then I looked back, and I said,
my favorite scenes in all of the books
and movies
(31:22):
weren't for me, it wasn't the the swashbuckling,
the dragon fighting, the the swordplay.
It was the gathering. Even as a kid,
you know, I I loved
when the scene where in
in in The Hobbit where they meet Slider
at the at the tavern or the cantina
scene in Star Wars or, you know, any
number of things. Those were always my favorite.
(31:43):
In pints? Exact yes.
And why do people go to these places?
Let's take alcohol out of the story.
Why do we go? We go to CNBC.
We go to share stories.
We go to
develop
new skills and relationships we go to get,
you know information from the shady guy in
the corner You know, we go to get
(32:04):
rested and nourished all of these things. And
so for me
I started developing
Sort of what I originally called adventure's other
half It was the other half of the
hero's journey story and created an entire narrative
and plot line and model
that really helps men to support that element
of their story writing.
(32:26):
Right? And by doing that, we
if we think about all of the greatest
hero's journey of adventures, you know, Lord of
the Rings, Star Wars,
only when the hero is getting stomped on
do we then get maybe a three minute
montage of their backstory of why they're doing
it, what they care about, what's important, you
know, all of those things.
(32:48):
And that three minutes is really important,
But it's undeveloped and if we think about
outside of the movie and you think about
culture
It's undeveloped there as well. We all want
to be epic. We all want it, you
know, whatever
But what's the you know, chop wood, carry
water moment? What's the why? What's the the
element of what I do is magical and
(33:09):
and adventurous
even when I'm cleaning the bathroom?
And and how can that be something that
I can lean into? Because then when the
opportunity
arises to be epic, I'm ready.
And I also don't need to. I don't
get I don't need to.
Go ahead. Yeah. Yeah. And I don't Kai,
I bet you this kind of resonates with
you similarly in that Kai and I are
(33:31):
both musicians. Kai and I are in our
twenties. We're really pounding the pavement
being musicians, and things have changed for us.
Right?
And I don't know. Kai, if you've had
this, but, like, I've kinda had this, like,
re I've had to
really reshift and reevaluate
what being a musician looks like
now that it's sharing the stage with fatherhood,
(33:52):
pun intended there.
Yeah. Do you know what I mean? Like,
there's, like, there's these two identities that they
can't just be separate. Right? Mhmm. So how
to integrate them. And the musician part of
me was definitely living
the hero's journey when I was 22 and
in a van.
Right? And I was slaying the dragons, was
(34:12):
getting on stage and playing all the different
venues. Right?
So now that I'm a father and I'm
doing that less,
right, like, is that could be damaging to
someone. Right? Like, someone living this kind of
epic life in early adulthood and going into
fatherhood and having that kind of
the rug pulled from their feet.
(34:33):
So being able to find
that time to still be a musician and
still do those things,
but integrating it into fatherhood and,
acknowledging that, yeah, I'm gonna do this a
little bit less. I'm gonna you know, I'm
not gonna be traveling as much as I
did.
I don't know. Let me throw that over
to you, Kyle. Like, does that resonate and
does that resonate with maybe other listeners, right,
(34:55):
like, in a different field? Yeah. Right? Absolutely.
I I think for me, it's just, like,
retaining
retaining my sense of self because I don't
I don't feel any different
as a as a person. Like and I
and that's so funny when I say that
because I think a lot of parents are
like, yeah. Yeah. Like, I still feel like
that person I've always been is just like
your priorities have shifted. And for me, it's
(35:15):
just like, you know, at the end of
the day,
there's only so many hours. Was I able
to find that hour or two for Yeah.
Some music for myself is I think where
I kinda feel it. And, you know, I
think what's really interesting about this, the hero's
journey is or the myth thereof is kind
of like how you bring that back to
the is it part of the group work
that you do? Is that that's correct, Jason,
with in terms of so it's like it's
(35:37):
unpacking those moments in the hero's journey where
they were instead of fighting, they were at
the table having a pint and just
talking talking about someone. So I I guess
through through that work with the group mentality,
what kind of things,
like, kinda come to life, through, like, kind
of the group group talks?
Well, I I I I wanna go back
to something you said before where you said,
like, I don't feel any different as a
(35:58):
person. It's just the priorities have shifted. Right?
Yeah. There's a real you know, I would
say there's a real truth to that as
well as something that is a little bit
heartbreaking for me
Because
Mhmm. When we take on the identity of
fatherhood,
we are changed. And
we are lacking in so many ways in
(36:18):
our culture
different whether we call them rituals or shifts
or identity
changes,
rites of passage,
these kinds of things,
in so many ways, we're missing that, our
culture.
We have some token
events for kids when they're turning into
teenagers. We have 16,
the bar mitzvahs, or
(36:39):
but we don't have that party. Yeah, where
is my party? Exactly.
We have another we have baby showers maybe
for moms,
and there are things called blessing ways for
moms, and it's this idea of
gathering into this new identity.
Well, in other cultures, other times, men have
had that, right? It's a pretty massive developmental
(37:01):
shift to go from
boy,
an adolescent, to a young man who
I used to joke, I
was a dude, then I was a boyfriend,
then I was a husband, then I was
a father.
And my dude self sometimes wants to come
out more.
And and the resolution of my dude self
(37:21):
with my father self
is sometimes a real struggle. It leads to
me staying up too late sometimes. It leads
to me not always making the best choices.
It you know? And it takes away from
some of the connections that are in the
center of my values.
And so reconciling those stories is so fascinating,
so important. So, again, going back to your
(37:42):
question, in the group work we do,
men are able to start reconciling that. They
can be honest about it. They can, you
know, share, you know, like,
I went out with some buddies for the
weekend, and we went to a concert, and
we went camping. And, you know, it was
nice it was nice to be away, but
it was nice to come home. And how
do, you know, how do I bring
the the sort of treasures or or experiences
(38:04):
or insights
from maybe a a weekend with the boys
into my everyday life with my kids? I
mean, that's it's a big change. That's a
shift.
Mhmm.
Yeah. Yeah. Then now it's resonating
so hard. I think what I'm hearing is
maybe I haven't accepted that I've changed or
maybe I haven't you know what I mean?
Like,
(38:25):
the idea of my prioritizing shift is maybe
more my how I literally think about things,
but, like, chemically, I'm sure there's something happening
in my brain. I've literally changed. When I
look at Miles sometimes,
like, you just
fill with with joy and when he hits
you with a when he hits you with
a hitting hand
and you have to remind him that this
(38:46):
is a
gentle hand, I'm surged with a little bit
of anger that I have to tamper down
and have to practice patience. Right? So there's
I guess there is a lot of change
happening, which I don't know. Maybe this is
a is this a good segue into maybe
the the activity you wanted to take us
through?
That sounds perfect.
(39:09):
Thanks for listening to this is your job
now, produced by me, Kai. If this episode
made you think or made you feel, we
hope it also made you realize you don't
have to figure this out all alone. Leadership
today is about presence, not perfection. To learn
more, follow Wendy Wollner on LinkedIn, subscribe to
Balancing Life's Issues on YouTube, or stream the
podcast wherever you listen. Because if you're leading
people, this is your job now. Anything else
(39:31):
to add, Miles?
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The Bobby Bones Show
Listen to 'The Bobby Bones Show' by downloading the daily full replay.