June 23, 2024 • 62 mins
Ever wondered how your life might change if you could sit down and give your younger self some sage advice? In this heartfelt conversation, Dr. Kenny Embry and Mark Dunagan explore just that, sharing the life lessons and wisdom they've gathered over the years. Discover the divine patterns in mathematics, the pivotal role of reading, and the essential value of following instructions. Mark opens up about youthful mistakes driven by haste and arrogance, stressing the importance of resolving issues promptly and learning from past errors.
Mentorship can be a game-changer, and this episode is packed with personal anecdotes that highlight its profound impact. Mark recounts how early musical experiences and the realization of needing a plan B illuminated the importance of mentors who offer honest, sometimes tough feedback. We delve into the qualities of authentic mentorship and how observing a mentor's life and successes can guide us to reliable advice. This discussion reinforces the significance of discerning quality counsel and the value of mentors who genuinely invest in long-term relationships.
Faith and resilience against societal pressures take center stage as we reflect on stories from history and personal life. From a young girl’s faith during the Hungarian Revolution to personal faith journeys influenced by family, we underscore the enduring value of a relationship with God. Discover the wisdom in informal teaching moments, family values, and the impact of modern technology on personal interactions. Through these reflections, we emphasize the importance of supportive relationships, building networks, and prioritizing emotional well-being, all while acknowledging how far we've come in our spiritual and personal journeys.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
In this episode of Balancing the Christian Life, we
talk about giving yourselfadvice.
Welcome to Balancing theChristian Life.
I'm Dr Kenny Embry.
Join me as we discover how tobe better Christians and people
in the digital age.
I don't care how old you are.
(00:30):
I suspect there are times whenyou wish you could talk to a
younger version of yourself andgive yourself advice.
We can call these regrets ormistakes, but the fact is all of
us know talking to a version ofourselves in the past is simply
not possible.
Sure, it's the plot lines ofsome interesting fantasy or
science fiction movies, like theBack to the Future franchise,
but we all understand we justcan't have that happen.
However, what is possible istalking to someone who is
(00:54):
farther down life's journey thanyou are.
I've talked about mentorship onthe program a few times before
and the conversation I havetoday slots very nicely into
that topic.
I decided to talk to Mark Dunnagain about advice he would give
a younger version of himself.
I've talked to Mark before.
He and his wife Cindy have beentraveling in their RV for a
(01:15):
while now, visiting differentchurches.
Mark was in Wesley Chapel,florida, where I live and where
he also owns a house, and wewere able to get together a few
times for a book club that Ihave with Edwin Crozier and a
few others, and also just to sitdown and talk for a while.
Before they began their nomadiclifestyle, mark was an
(01:36):
evangelist for many years in theOregon area.
So let's just start there.
Mark, if you could talk to ayounger version of yourself,
what would you say?
Speaker 2 (01:46):
I'm not sure if I would have listened to me and in
fact I might have annoyed thecurrent version of Mark, but I
guess here are some things Ilook back upon the realization
that math I was taking in school, that was God's math, that math
is the way everything in theuniverse was put together.
I often tell people theuniverse is like Mexican food
(02:10):
you know how?
A burrito and a taco enchiladathey all have the same
ingredients, but they're justput together differently.
Speaker 1 (02:16):
The universe is like that.
I understand what you're saying, which is when we look at the
world and see all the patterns,this is God's pattern.
This isn't our pattern and theidea that there's intelligence
behind that.
Again, we're looking atevidence that if we were
atheists, we would definitelyinterpret the same stuff
differently.
I think you're absolutely right.
I don't know that I would havelistened to a 54-year-old guy
(02:40):
when I was 16, 17, 18.
I think there's an arrogancethat comes with youth.
Speaker 2 (02:47):
There is, I know, something that happened to me.
I'm not sure if this happenswith other people, but I started
as a freshman in high schooland you're nobody, I mean you're
stripped of all dignity as afreshman.
Speaker 1 (02:58):
The girls don't even see you anymore.
Speaker 2 (03:00):
I think I still looked up to my teachers, but
something happened betweenjunior and senior year.
I came back and a lot of themarriages had changed and all of
a sudden I really did it likeyou guys are supposed to be the
ones telling me how to conductmyself and live, and you guys
can't even handle your own lives, and that really, I think,
(03:22):
knocked me off the rails alittle bit, maybe a little bit
more cynical, and that really, Ithink, knocked me off the rails
a little bit, maybe a littlebit more cynical.
Can I trust anybody or thesepeople that are trying to teach
me this?
It doesn't even looklike—because I remember and I
wasn't a Christian there was adance I was at right One of the
school dances after thebasketball or football game,
yeah, and one of the teacherswas chasing the other teacher
around and it was almost likethe kids were having to watch
(03:52):
the teachers.
So I don't know, I really didn'tknow what to read.
I was not a reader.
I love to read now, but no onereally said, hey, you might want
to read this or that, and sincebecoming a Christian, I've
tried to catch up.
What should I be reading, right?
What are the great works ofliterature.
What are?
Speaker 1 (04:05):
the great stories.
Yeah, I completely understandthat.
One of the things that happenedwhen I was probably 30, I
stopped listening to music.
I just started listening tostuff to try and learn stuff,
and I don't know why, but thatjust became a lot more
interesting to me than figuringout another way that somebody is
going to talk about love andput it in eight bars of a
(04:27):
musical.
So that's one of the thingsthat changed as I got older.
I understand we're young andstupid.
I think we're all young andstupid and we all make a lot of
the same kinds of mistakes.
But when you look at the dumbstuff that I did, I don't know
if I'd be nearly as smart as Iam now however smart I am if I
(04:48):
didn't make some of those dumbdecisions.
Did you make any dumb decisionswhen you were young?
Speaker 2 (04:53):
Oh, yes, one thing, though.
Fortunately, I think a numberof the really dumb ones maybe
did not fully catch me.
The things I think of is when Iwas younger, I was busy, quick.
I really didn't spend much timetrying to comprehend the
directions, and I've tried tolearn from that.
(05:13):
Now I'm a lot more careful,like when I'm taking something
apart or if I'm threadingsomething.
Hey, these people thatengineered this product probably
knew what they were doing whenthey put it together.
And it's things like reread theinstructions a couple of times,
right, pull out all the pieces,take it a little slower.
(05:36):
That's something I've tried tolearn.
The other thing is hey, if youneed to address something, you
need to address it because it'snot going away.
Thing is hey, if you need toaddress something, you need to
address it because it's notgoing away.
Like what problems leftunresolved just snowball into a
lot bigger problems.
Speaker 1 (05:52):
They can yeah that's absolutely true.
Speaker 2 (06:00):
And then I remember in high school as a freshman,
the one thing I quit in life.
I obviously quit some sinfulthings, but I quit football and
I would not have been a star.
But I always regret, even if Iwas set on the bench all year
long, I didn't stick with it andthat left a bad taste in my
mouth that I'd quit something.
And after that I did freshmanbasketball, which was no fun at
(06:21):
all 18 players, seven of thekids played and the rest of us
never played a single minute ofthe entire season and it was
practices at 5.30 in the morningand it was cold and dark and
it's the Oregon winter and it'slike there were so many times
like this is no fun.
But I stuck with it because Ijust did not like that feeling
(06:42):
of I didn't follow through onsomething.
I began but it got hard, it wasno fun, but something in me
said that's not a good patternto follow Because there's
probably going to be a lot ofthings up ahead that are not
going to be any fun at all.
Speaker 1 (06:56):
That you're going to have to stick with.
You're talking aboutpersistence and patience and
following through with acommitment.
There are times to quitsomething.
My NBA career was never goingto get off the ground.
I'm five foot six and there's apoint at which I need to
recognize I don't have thetalent.
I'm never going to be an NBAstar.
There are things that I can dothat are uniquely my strengths.
(07:20):
If I keep on trying to be anNBA star, I will pour a lot of
effort into something that willnever be that good.
Let me ask you this way when isit a good idea to stop it, and
what is it a good idea to?
Speaker 2 (07:37):
keep on going.
Oh, that's a great question.
I'm not musically inclined.
Speaker 1 (07:42):
I wish I was.
Speaker 2 (07:43):
I had a little snare drum and my brother started
guitar lessons and we buy sheetmusic for Rolling Stones, wild
Horses, right.
So we're in the back bedroom,he's strumming on the guitar,
I'm playing on my little snaredrum and our sister-in-law comes
in because we had an olderbrother, like 14 years older,
wow.
So she said what are you guysdoing?
We're just rocking out.
(08:04):
She sits on the bed for maybe30 seconds.
She, after hearing us, standsup, swears and leaves the room
and a light bulb went on.
What made my little brotherlike maybe we need to have a
plan B?
And I don't know if I have ananswer to the question other
than just the principles inscripture.
But when you have parents, haveyou ever been to a concert?
(08:27):
And there's sometimes some girlup near the stage and she's
dancing.
It's ugly dancing and she'ssaying come on, everybody, let's
dance.
No one ever told her she didn'thave a mom and dad that said,
hey, no one wants to see that.
If you have people in your lifethat can do that for you, just
say, hey, that's not a good look, and hopefully you have some
(08:48):
people that.
And I think I had a few peoplegrowing up that were like that.
Speaker 1 (08:53):
What you're talking about.
There is a backdoor way oftalking about mentorship.
There are only some people whocan get away with saying
something like what you'retalking about.
Yes, let me ask this questionin this way, which is you're
right.
Everybody needs that person intheir life that can quietly say
you're being an idiot right now.
You need to stop that, becausethat's not good for you, it's
(09:15):
not good for anybody else, andyou're just going to look more
and more stupid.
How do you start being a mentorto somebody who desperately
needs one.
Speaker 2 (09:23):
I think you have to be real and authentic.
I don't know if you can go out.
I don't think you can go outand advertise yourself like a
mentor available here.
That would be one thing I thinkin my life.
Some of it has maybe shown upnaturally.
And, kenny, this is thefrustrating thing.
There are people that reallyneed that.
But there's two sides to thiscoin.
(09:45):
One has to be willing to takethe time to teach, but one has
to be willing to listen.
Over the years, I trained anumber of younger preachers in
Oregon, which was really a—Iwould encourage all preachers
to—because I think it keeps yousharp.
I think it keeps you fromgetting dull and stale and
stagnant and maybe stuck in yourmaybe the way that you present
(10:07):
things.
One of the great things thathelps you grow is having a
younger guy watching you, and Iknow a lot of people.
It's a lot of work, right?
I'm going to be taking him outto lunch.
He's going to go camping withus.
He's going to be at the house.
To this day, most of the guys Iworked with on our trip that we
did over the last three and ahalf four years I stayed in
their homes.
Some of them have come to staywith me.
(10:29):
Are you really interested in along-term relationship with this
person?
Maybe that's it.
If it's like hey, I got fiveminutes for you, half an hour
for you, whatever, and you'rejust one of many things on my
schedule versus you could bepart of my family in a sense now
.
And you'll always be part of myfamily in a sense now, and
you'll always be part of myfamily.
I think people can sense thedifference.
This guy really does have agenuine interest in what I
(10:52):
become, kenny.
The guys that I thought did thebest in the program all who
were willing to listen, the guysthat really flourished Because
they would get a lot of feedback, sometimes from me and
sometimes from the congregation,but the guys that really took
the time to listen to what otherpeople were trying to tell them
(11:12):
.
Those relationships tended toblossom and bloom, and so did
the guys.
Speaker 1 (11:18):
Yeah, here's the trick, and you will recognize
this.
Everybody's willing to give outadvice, and not all advice is
very good.
If you're a 19, 20, 21-year-oldnew preacher and you've got a
room full of people that are allgiving you conflicting advice,
(11:39):
how do you decide what's good,how do you decide what you can
safely ignore, and how do youdecide they're actually
criticizing themselves.
They're not really criticizingme, because I think all of those
things happen.
Some people will give youadvice that they consider is the
best they can give, but it'sjust irrelevant.
Some people will give youadvice that you definitely need
(12:01):
to take to heart, and there'ssome people that are not
criticizing you.
They're criticizing theirrelationship with their parents,
and you just recognize okay,that's not anything I can touch.
So, again, you're talking to ayounger version of yourself.
You're talking to a youngerpreacher, and how do you help
(12:21):
them sort through all the stuffthat may or may not be helpful?
Speaker 2 (12:26):
One thing I would say is look at the source.
Yeah, jesus said you'll knowthem by their fruits and
hopefully, kenny, if a youngperson comes to me and says, hey
, I got some questions, orwhatever, hopefully it's,
because maybe, hopefully,they've looked at my life, my
marriage.
Yeah, how I handle myself, Ithink that says my life, my
marriage.
Yeah, hell, I hand them myself.
I think that says a lot.
(12:46):
My relationships.
Does this guy know what he'sdoing?
Yeah, I would tell the youngman look at your source.
The person here is trying totell you something.
Does it look like they knowwhat they're doing?
And if they don't take it inand see what you can find with
it?
And if you find someone doingit right, their relationships
look really healthy and theirmarriage looks really solid.
(13:11):
And they've been married for somany years and it still looks
like they like each other.
Man that's, and you can tellthat.
You can tell when something'soff.
You can tell when something'soff.
Speaker 1 (13:22):
You usually can and I think one of the things that
I've heard in the past and youmight agree with this or
disagree with this never takecriticism from somebody that you
would not take advice from, andthere's a wisdom to that that I
really appreciate.
There are definitely peoplethat are just willing to
criticize because criticism isinfinitely easier.
(13:43):
Criticize because criticism isinfinitely easier.
It's easy to take a perfectstandard and figure out how you
fall short of that perfectstandard without any idea that
you're going to help them grow.
That's not helpful.
But when you come up againstthe perfect Jesus, whatever it
is he's criticizing you on, youneed to take seriously, because
(14:03):
that's something you really needto work on.
We don't have Jesus except forin a text.
Now, how do you decide You'retalking about?
By their fruits?
You shall know them and that'sabsolutely good advice.
But some of these people arepeople you just met.
If you're out of luck withhaving a history, how do you
figure out if they have a goodfuture?
Speaker 2 (14:25):
Well, you know what?
I think it's something I heardabout Elon Musk and I'm not
necessarily this huge fan, but Ithought this was interesting.
Engineers would come to him andsay we have a problem.
And they said I don't want tohear that, I want to hear we
have a solution.
And the thought was thatsomeone said you can fall in
(14:48):
love with the problem, and Ithink preachers can fall in love
with problems, and sometimesyou have a sermon and you go the
sermon's about the problem.
Speaker 1 (14:54):
Okay, but we know what the problem is.
What's the solution?
Speaker 2 (14:55):
And I guess one thing I would say is this person who
has this criticism for you?
Do they have any solutions?
that they're bringing to thetable for you?
Do they have any solutions thatthey're bringing to the table?
I think, kenny, sometimes, likeif you're struggling with a
(15:16):
temptation or addiction, I thinkyou can tell by what people say
to you advice or whatever, orsolutions.
I'm looking for someone withsolutions and someone who just
doesn't want to complain abouthow bad the world is, or the
church or whatever.
Okay, or we're not evangelizing, okay, what's your answer?
I want to hear someone hasanswered.
I love the idea, too, of goingto the text and going back to
(15:38):
Jesus.
After a day I heard a storyabout the Hungarian Revolution
of 56, which doesn't seem likemany people.
They've just forgotten aboutthat right.
So the people push back on thecommunist regime, but the
Soviets come in with their tanksand troops and just crush it.
But Western journalists werethere for a while and they were
(16:01):
interviewing people.
And there was one girl who saidman, they're trying to
brainwash us in schools andthey're telling us lies.
And the journalist said to themother your daughter's different
, because a lot of the youngpeople we're interviewing are
afraid, sunken, timid.
Your daughter's very confident.
What are you guys doing?
The mother says every nightafter dinner, we go down to the
(16:24):
basement and we read the Bibleand we wash their brains of the
brainwashing.
Not everything we hear is good,right, and even from other
Christians not all advice thatwe've—even from solid people,
right.
And maybe I just need to pickup the Bible and read it and
give myself a nightly bath,because we all reek a little bit
(16:45):
at the end of the day indealing with the culture we live
in, right, the world we live in.
I'm just going to go in thereand try to cleanse myself a
little bit of.
Did I pick up any bad ideastoday?
I don't want those to root inmy brain or my heart.
Speaker 1 (17:00):
Oh yeah, boy.
Yeah, I understand that.
Going back to that idea ofmentorship and helping somebody
who's younger everybody at 17,18, 19, 20, 20, you know, right
in there they think they haveall the answers before they even
know a good question to ask.
I call it the arrogance ofyouth, but it's also the
arrogance of inexperience.
(17:20):
What are some experiences thatyou've had that helped teach you
something that was reallyimportant?
Speaker 2 (17:30):
I was not raised in a Christian home.
My mom was a little bitreligious, my dad really.
No interest in it.
I might've been fifth grade.
Summer was coming up.
Mom had signed me up for avacation Bible school.
And man was I.
Why do I have to go?
Okay?
So my mom tells a story aboutlong before I was born.
(17:52):
About a year or so, a cousin Ihad been in the Navy was an
electrician, came back engaged,hit by a drunk driver.
Okay, in the hospital hiskidneys are starting to shut
down.
At that time there was nothingthey could do.
And he looks at his mom andsays, mom, what's next?
And my mom said and she did nothave a good answer and she said
(18:14):
I don't want you lying in thehospital bed one day not knowing
what's next.
So you're going.
Man, I didn't have an argumentto that, right, I don't know.
That just stuck with mesomething that my mom said I
need to know what's next.
I love something.
I think and maybe this is agood question you could ask
(18:37):
someone that you're trying tohelp and they don't seem to be
listening.
If you keep doing what you'redoing, what's going to happen?
If you don't change anything,then what's the outcome going to
be?
And there was something Cindysaid, because I met her and I
was not a Christian when I mether and I was probably baptized
about a month later after I mether, but I said something very
(19:00):
foolish, and why?
do I need to do what God says.
And then she responded backbecause he's God.
Sometimes it's those simpleresponses that clarify your
framework, to say that's right,he is God.
And who am I to argue with that?
If I cannot even alter one ofthe laws of physics of the
(19:22):
universe, who am I to try tocome up with my own moral
standard?
That's a very humbling thing.
Who is God to you?
Now I would say my and that's agreat question, and I'm trying
to explore that a little bitmore Kenny, from a male side,
(19:43):
because if I was a woman, someof the imagery in Scripture
would be easier.
The bride of Christ right, I'mpart of the bride and this is my
husband.
It's a little weird for a man,right?
I think the one that appeals tome now at this point in my life
is the idea of a refuge.
As you get older, you realizeall the things that you don't
(20:06):
have control over and man, allthe bad and evil stuff out there
, and some evil person couldjust sweep in and you don't even
know it and wipe you outfinancially or whatever it is
steal your identity.
Speaker 1 (20:19):
That's a scary thought.
Speaker 2 (20:21):
I've read a lot of the Psalms.
More and often that's the themeis God's my refuge?
God's my refuge.
And also, the older I get tryto realize that my health isn't
my refuge, even though Iappreciate it.
Whatever money I have in mybank, in retirement, that's not
my refuge, whatever assets or ahome or whatever I have, or how
(20:42):
the car is doing or et cetera.
Because I think when I wasyounger I put more stock in that
and I may have argued, yeah,god was still in there, but
these other things were nice,these other things were little
supports along with God, andI've tried to reach the point of
none of that really.
I appreciate that, but at theend of the day, that could all
(21:03):
be gone tomorrow.
And if I lost everythingtomorrow health, money, et
cetera like Job, could I stillbe able to rejoice that I have a
relationship with God andthat's more valuable than all
those other things combined.
Speaker 1 (21:18):
I agree with you that he absolutely is a refuge, but
he's also—both of us have alittle bit of mileage on our
odometer.
I'm 54 years old, my health isnot what it used to be and all
my investments are fine, but I'mlooking at my retirement and
I'm thinking, boy, this shouldbe a lot more than it is right
(21:40):
now and that's not very helpfulfor me either.
And you talked a little bitabout experiences and I'll go
ahead and tell you I don't mindhaving stuff, I like stuff, but
I would much rather spend mymoney on experiences than on
stuff, because I would muchrather reminisce with Katie, my
wife, about what we did andwhere we went and things like
(22:01):
that.
Then, look, we got this nicelamp.
I'll defend that.
But the thing about it is, atthe end of the day, I don't know
that experiences do a lot forme either.
It's relationships, and when Ithink about who God is, do you
think that the relationship withGod is the most important thing
you got going?
Speaker 2 (22:21):
Oh yeah, life is all about relationships.
People will say what's thecoolest thing you've seen on
your trip?
Nature's gorgeous, but it's thepeople.
It's God's people.
But, more importantly, none ofthat's going to work unless
God's at the center.
There's something in you thatno earthly relationship can
(22:42):
satisfy, which CS Lewis, I think, said is proof that you've been
created for another world.
That's where the rubber meetsthe road, and I think that's an
issue of do you trust that ordon't you?
Because I think some people hitthat wall, kenny, and say I'm
going to stay with my stuff.
I think every Christian reads apoint like okay, am I willing
(23:04):
to really put him first?
Because that's a scary thing.
Yeah, Right, but man, and Idon't know how many people push
through on that.
Jesus said the way is narrow,but man, the reward is.
I see people and as we'vetraveled, I've seen people that
I would say.
(23:25):
I went looking for the good aswe traveled, and so I tried not
to go looking for the bad, but Ithink I did run into people
that were modern-day Josephs andDaniels that really were that.
Yeah, they're all in Kenny,it's interesting.
As a child, I ran into a numberof bad examples that could have
completely turned me off fromthe faith.
I remember being in anEpiscopal church Bible study as
(23:51):
a kid and the teacher wastalking to us about knowing the
flood and everyone's coloringtheir picture and he said oh, by
the way, kids, none of thisreally happened and I caught
that Nobody else did and I thinkI put my foot down.
After that, I'm not going, I'mnot giving up my Sunday for
something.
That's not true.
So that threw me off.
For a while.
Had a number of relatives thatwere very inconsistent, pretty
(24:15):
much hypocrites religiously.
But, kendi, when I was in sixthgrade, when I went to public
school, your mom and dad couldsign a form that a lady would
show up maybe once a month,maybe once every two weeks, take
you to a little church nextdoor up the street.
You would have a Bible studyand you would sing songs, pray
(24:36):
and come back.
That was allowed.
We'd been told that week thatthis woman who probably had been
coming and getting us fromsecond or third grade, her son,
had died in Vietnam and she hadbeen told that day she showed up
and she took us up there anddid what she had done before and
(24:56):
brought us back, and I put thatin the back of my head and said
not everyone's inconsistentMark.
There's something real aboutthat.
Maybe one day you'll figure itout, but there are some people
that are all in that stuck withme.
Not everyone's a hypocrite.
(25:18):
There are some true, genuinepeople out there.
Speaker 1 (25:23):
I think one of the things that I would say is I'm a
hypocrite.
I know I have been.
If you are somebody who knowsthat you could be better, what
should you be doing?
Speaker 2 (25:38):
You talked about and I think this is great advice for
young people.
What should you aim for?
We should aim for the ultimategood.
What's that?
That's God, that's arelationship with God, and
obviously they might push backand say, but that's going to
take a lot of work.
You read like Ephesians 5, itsays walk in love just as Christ
(25:58):
loved you or be imitators of meas I'm of Christ.
And you go like are you talkingto me?
Because you almost wanted tosay to Jesus do you really know
who I am, my faults and etcetera.
And he's saying no, I'm tellingyou to do that.
You're going like man.
That's going to take a lot ofwork, but can you think of any
(26:24):
endeavor more rewarding than I'mgoing to seek to pattern myself
like the Son of God in everyaspect I can?
I realize I never could becomeGod, but I'm going to seek to
become like Jesus.
There was a book called myAntonia.
(26:45):
The writer talked about acharacter that her brothers.
As the brothers grew older,they became more and more like
themselves.
I don't want that.
There's too much of Markalready.
I want to become more and morelike Christ and Kenny.
Wouldn't it be worth it tothrow everything into that and
see what would the best versionof me look like?
And not only that.
(27:06):
But I know I can never payJesus back for my salvation, but
it seems like at least a nicegift would be the best version
of myself through your help,through your word and through
the help of your people that Itried to bring about.
It doesn't always feelcomfortable because maybe it
(27:26):
feels you've never landed.
I feel that way now.
Speaker 1 (27:30):
I feel that I haven't landed right.
Speaker 2 (27:32):
I'm still up in the air a little bit, but maybe
that's the way it should feel.
I always want to have thatelement of me that's not set in
concrete yet, that there's stillmore of me that can come out in
a good way, that I'm stillmoldable, I'm still pliable.
I'm still moldable, I'm stillpliable.
(27:53):
I know young people and I evenget this voice.
Today, when you hear a voicethat will say you can't do it,
someone will say something andautomatically almost hear
yourself saying you can't dothat.
There's more than one possibleme.
There's all sorts of versionsof me that could exist, like a
(28:21):
low-functioning, ahigh-functioning, whatever, but
there's more than one future andthere's more than one me in the
future.
Right, and you should think butI want that to be the best
version of me I can make it, andI think that just means that,
(28:42):
man, all the things that we doon a daily basis may be like
this, because I know there's anumber of people like I'm not
getting on talking on somepodcast, right, I can make a
mistake or whatever.
I would really encourage peopleto push themselves.
Do uncomfortable things.
Speaker 1 (29:02):
Why.
Speaker 2 (29:05):
God deserves that, the kingdom needs that, the
local church needs that, becausethat's the people that go out
and talk to their neighbors.
That's the people that go outand talk to their neighbors, or
that's the people that try tohave the—that's the people that
are willing to have theuncomfortable conversations when
they disagree and try to worklike—I really like the idea,
(29:25):
kenny.
How can we approach this?
Like in marriage, or you'rehaving a disagreement with
someone?
How can we approach this wherewe both win?
Speaker 1 (29:32):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (29:40):
And, more importantly , god wins.
Does God need to win?
Let me rephrase that, kenny, heis going to win.
The only question is will he beglorified in my life and in the
church I'm a part of, in thefamily I'm a part of, in the
marriage I'm a part of?
Speaker 1 (29:53):
Maybe that's it.
What kind of insecure God doyou serve that needs glory all
the time?
Speaker 2 (29:58):
You know, in the book of Acts, chapter 17,.
It really is interesting whereit says that God doesn't need
anything but at the same time heis glorious, I mean, and I have
the chance.
I guess it's like with marriage.
(30:19):
I don't know if marriage needsany more reinforcement, but it
would sure be nice if mymarriage is honoring to the
institution, Right.
So I don't think it's an aspectthat he's vulnerable on that
point or jealous on that point.
It's just that's who he is.
that he's vulnerable on thatpoint or jealous on that point,
it's just that's who he is, andin light of everything he's done
(30:39):
for us, I really need to tellother people how great he is.
I think that does me a lot ofgood too, because I think
something's going to beglorified, kenny, something is
going to be glorified You'reright, I don't know.
Speaker 1 (30:56):
I've used this quote several times, which is Cecil B
DeMille, when he was promotingthe Ten Commandments, the movie
that he did.
Speaker 2 (31:01):
Oh yeah, that was family lore in our family.
Yeah, with Yul.
Speaker 1 (31:08):
Brynner.
Speaker 2 (31:09):
My daughter, Ashley, can quote vast sections of that
movie.
Speaker 1 (31:15):
One of the things that Cecil B DeMille said and I
don't know if it was originallywith him or not, but one of the
things that he said is we do notbreak the Ten Commandments, we
only break ourselves againstthem.
Yeah, and I think when it comesto, does God need our adoration
?
Does God need our glory?
No, god didn't need us.
The fact of the matter is, godwas doing just fine without us
and will do fine without us, butwe need God.
(31:36):
And when we start thinkingabout why do we need to glorify
God?
He didn't need it.
He never needed it.
But if you can't get off yourhigh horse and recognize that
you're an idiot and that yourdecisions are not usually that
good, and there's somebody who'ssmarter than you are, that has
already figured this out andhe's willing to give you answers
(31:58):
if you look for the answers,but he's not going to force you
to take those answers If youwant to make yourself like
Pharaoh, and that this is Ithink this is the way God
hardened Pharaoh's heart.
He thought of himself as a godand because he thought of
himself as a God, when Mosessays, you need to let these
people go so they can worship menot you, me.
(32:20):
Pharaoh could not respond tothat, because he already thought
of himself as equal to orbetter than the God that we have
.
Who was he hurting?
He wasn't hurting God, he wasonly hurting himself in that
situation.
Does that make sense?
Speaker 2 (32:34):
Yeah, and the entire nation, you know, kind of went
down with him right.
To me, kenny, that story is soamazing because after the death
of the firstborn, and they lethim go right, yeah, but then
they have a change of heart likewhat have we done?
Well, could we start with areview of the Nile turned to
(32:54):
blood?
Remember that and remember thedeath angel shows up.
Because when I look at thatbecause a lot of people go, why
would you do it?
Because most are not going toobey you and all of that type of
stuff.
But it's almost like God saysbut people need to have at least
(33:25):
the opportunity of this sort oflife, right, man?
That is a rip.
And when I realize that I'mgoing okay, so God doesn't play
it safe and I want to live insuch a way that there's many
(33:45):
years between me and my olderbrother, like 14 years, wow and
my parents were even thinkingabout adopting and my dad was
getting close to 45, and theywere going to cut him off at
that time adopting and my dadwas getting close to 45, and
they were going to cut him offat that time.
And my mom starts not feelingwell and goes into the doctor
and he says you're pregnant.
She says I can't get pregnant.
We've been trying to have ababy for 14 years.
(34:07):
You're pregnant.
But then he says don't get anyhopes up for this child, because
this child's probably going tobe born, born dead, because
there was a rh negative factorbetween her and my dad.
That was really bad, or he'sgoing to be severely you know,
mentally disabled and my dad wasabout 45 and I was born
(34:29):
thanksgiving day and bright,healthy, and my dad wasn't
really excited about being a dadagain.
He has this 14.
He's getting ready to retirefrom the navy right right now.
Here comes another baby, butthis is something that I was
told years after he passed away.
But my dad said what justseemed like mark wanted to be
(34:51):
here.
I'm hoping that's still myattitude.
Am I living in such a way whereI just really look like, hey, I
want to be part of this and Idon't want God regretting my
existence.
I'm glad Mark was born.
I'm glad Mark had theopportunity to live.
(35:13):
So, with all the things thatcomes at you in life, that's
really what I'm working on.
Is Mark's still happy to behere to be part of all of this?
Speaker 1 (35:21):
Yeah, when you're young and we've been talking
around being a mentor andtalking around, but honestly
we're also talking very directlyto.
These are values that youngerpeople need to understand and
they won't understand them whenthey're young Because it takes a
(35:42):
couple old guys like you and meto tell them that these are
roads that have destinations.
But once you end up there the401k not a bad direction to go,
but once you end up in 401k land, there's so much less than it
can offer you.
(36:02):
Taking all the vitamins, makesure you're getting all the
exercise.
There are advantages to thisthat it does make your body not
wear out quite as quickly, butthere are limits to what that
will be.
If you're talking to somebodywho's younger and you know this
because you were younger whatpriorities have changed over
(36:26):
your lifetime?
Speaker 2 (36:28):
Time.
You don't have as much time asyou think you have, yeah, so I
don't do any television and I'mnot telling people that's bad,
but it just with the time I haveleft.
Yeah, Wow, there's a lot ofbooks I haven't read yet.
Or podcasts or interviews, yeah,or things with really smart
(36:48):
people or whatever it may be.
You know, one is timemanagement Right, one of really
redeem the time and make everyopportunity count.
The other thing I think wouldbe is do not resent the
unexpected.
That's something else.
I tried to change that aboutmyself because that means that
(37:10):
I'm going to learn something.
Hopefully I'm going to grow,have a chance to exercise some
patience.
Don't resent difficulties, theunexpected things not going as
planned in your life.
Speaker 1 (37:27):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (37:28):
And I guess that importance of relationships and,
while they're alive, tellpeople how much they've meant to
you.
Yeah, someone went to a funeraland they said people at the
funeral were pretty importantpeople and said some wonderful
things and it dawned on him butthe person who died heard none
of it.
Speaker 1 (37:51):
Yeah, there's a writer and he was making the
point.
He said you know, right afteryou die, the best people in the
world are going to come and seethe best things about you and
you're going to miss it.
And that's a party you wouldactually enjoy being at.
Speaker 2 (38:09):
Something else that safety is an illusion.
There is no safe place here.
I learned that, hopefully.
I learned that on our trip whenwe left Oregon during the
height of COVID 2020, and peoplesaid, ooh, I don't know if it's
a good time to travel, butright after that the wildfires
came through and about ranpeople out of their homes and
it's like there is no safe place.
(38:33):
I'm looking at my health andI'm looking at this and I'm
looking at that.
I know my dad saw the doctor aweek before he died.
Goes in the doctor, sayslooking good man, drops over
dead a week later.
And the other thing is, ifyou're not taking care of your
soul, you are going todisintegrate.
(38:53):
That's something I think haschanged over the years.
I think when I was a newChristian, I had this idea that
there were people in the worldthat maybe they would not become
a Christian and they weren'tgoing to go to heaven, but at
least in this life they couldprobably somewhat keep their
life together.
And now I don't believe thatanymore.
If you don't have God in yourlife, I think you are
(39:14):
disintegrating on a certainlevel.
The more I get to know people,it's like not everything there
is as advertised, that you areand I like that word
disintegrate.
You are falling apart becauseit's that, I think, kenny, it's
your soul and you might sayspirit too, but I think that's
what keeps you, your feelings,your thoughts, your fears, in
(39:38):
the proper perspective.
Your body, all of that, that'sthat thing on the outside, that
kind of keeps it all nice andorganized without it just like
flying apart.
I was talking to someone at thecollege the nursing program,
right and I think she said someof the students said why do we
(40:00):
have to take all these Bibleclasses?
We're going to be nurses, right?
She said those are the classesthat are going to keep you
together, because you're goingto see death, pain, sorrow,
people are going to die in yourarms.
That you got to know.
And if you don't have God,you're going to fall apart.
It's just one of those things.
The Bible's right.
(40:20):
You got to love God with allyour heart, mind, soul and
strength.
Don't get this idea that I cangive God about 60% or so and
it's all going to work.
I don't think it's going towork unless every part of you is
in on this.
To me, the most challengingthing is reining in the thoughts
(40:43):
, that is.
I'm only going to think aboutwhat's true.
But this is sure fun to thinkabout over here.
Okay, but it's not true.
Yeah, but it's enjoyable, butit's not true.
Man taking every thoughtcaptive of 2 Corinthians 10 to
the obedience of ChristHopefully we're still working on
(41:06):
that and giving that a goodeffort until we die.
I always think about, as youget older, what if I get into a
point, kenny, that basicallyit's.
I'm just in a room in a chairand people bring me stuff right
and I'm stuck with my thoughts.
I want those to be some goodthoughts rate.
Speaker 1 (41:39):
And again, if I'm talking to somebody who's
younger, I think one of thethings that that I'm somebody
who likes to study things.
I, before I make an investment,I look at the company, I look
at what they make, I look at ifI like what they are and if I do
that like their values andthings like that.
But there comes a point whereand this is my problem I fall
into the paralysis of analysisthat I will think that I can
(42:01):
anticipate every problem, that Ican anticipate every, and at
some point there comes a pointwhere you actually have to pull
the trigger before you know allthe information, because you'll
never know all the information.
Important part of any of thesethings and we've talked about
this at the very outset which iswhat's really important to you,
and if it's relationships, arerelationships more important
(42:24):
than getting more information,than investing more in the stock
market?
Because here's the thing andyou probably already know this,
mark the best times that I'veever had with my children are
usually in the car, goingsomeplace, and it's going to the
track meet where I have themost important conversations
with my kid.
(42:45):
That's trash time to me.
That is time that is unfilled,that is wasted time.
It's on the way to somethingelse.
But when I look back over it,the most important parts of my
life were like what you'retalking about.
I was on my way to doingsomething else and the most
(43:06):
important part of that was notthe track meet, it was the
conversation we had on the way.
It was teaching my kid aboutvalues while I was dropping them
off at their friend's house.
That so much of.
If a relationship is really allthat important to you, do not
have the hubris to think thatyou can anticipate all the
(43:29):
important parts, because theimportant parts will sneak up on
you.
Do you see what I'm saying?
Do you agree?
Speaker 2 (43:35):
with this.
It's the informal.
Someone said the things thatyour kids will probably remember
more than anything else wouldbe those informal teaching
moments.
And I was thinking the otherday so what did I learn in
school?
And I went grade by grade.
Fifth grade, I got the timestables 1 through 12.
(43:58):
Sophomore in high school wastyping, but the other years I
can't tell you what I learned inthat year.
Now, maybe it's because I neverwent on into the academic world
.
Okay, yeah, but I can't tellyou a single mathematical
equation.
I ever learned a singlemathematical equation I ever had
, and so it wasn't the things inthe you might say official.
(44:23):
The things that I will rememberwill be things like my dad died
when I was 20.
And in a certain sense I don'tremember a single thing he ever
said to me, almost like a singleconversation, okay, like a
meaningful thing.
But I remember after he died andthere was a period of my time
of time after high school and alittle bit during high school.
I was really in a dark period,coming home drunk and stuff like
that, and my mom said I worriedabout you and I talked to your
(44:46):
dad about that.
Of course, my dad is now goneand he never told me this, but
he said don't worry about Mark,he will always be there for you.
And that tells me that, eventhough I was being a knucklehead
and jerk at the time, there wassomething he saw he never told
me face-to-face.
I believe in you, but that'swhat that conversation and that
(45:11):
was just an informal, it was notan official moment, just one of
those informal situations,right, yeah, Almost like just
mom decided to say that.
But the thoughts of childhoodare long thoughts.
I will remember that the restof my life and it's almost it's
the same thing, Kenny, I think,is that the times that your kids
(45:33):
will remember with you is notthe times you spent the most
money on vacation.
Yeah, they're going to rememberjust some regular time that you
guys went and did somethingthat didn't cost a whole lot.
Yeah, those are the importantmoments, but we often consider
them like this is just downtime.
(45:54):
Yeah, I agree.
Speaker 1 (46:01):
Again, the conversation that we've been
having has basically beentalking about values and what
kind of values you need tocommunicate to a younger
generation, and I think one ofthe things that that and I know
it's when we look at the idea ofculture and the culture that we
live in.
I'll go ahead and say this I Ithink it's easy for us to
(46:24):
criticize culture, becauseculture is always criticizable.
It's always the world that's.
That's exactly right, and backin ancient it was Babylon that
that was the problem.
But there's always been aBabylon.
There's always been a problem.
The culture has never gotten itright.
And, honestly, when we look atcriticizing culture, it's always
(46:44):
easy because it's always out ofstep with Christianity and,
frankly, you can often impose onculture with what you think are
the problems that they have,which is fair.
There are a lot of problemswith culture.
But let me ask you this andagain, we've been around a while
what's truly changed?
(47:06):
What's really changed?
What do we really need to worryabout?
What's popular today?
Speaker 2 (47:14):
Well, temptation is one click away.
Yeah, which, kenny?
I don't like that, but I thinkit's a fair test of who I am,
because if you can live in aculture where temptation is one
click away and resist, I thinkyou're the real deal.
Speaker 1 (47:30):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (47:31):
And that would be just.
Maybe that's not the sum totalof the test, but at least that
would be one marker indicator Iworry about.
It seems like people have ahard time having face-to-face
conversations anymore.
Speaker 1 (47:44):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (47:44):
I get that.
I worry about knee-jerkreaction.
With the internet, the worldcan have a knee-jerk reaction
all at once.
Yeah can have a knee-jerkreaction all at once.
Yeah, I'm not a big sci-fi guy,but one of the movies I
remember I had when we were inoregon vhs movie was forbidden
planet.
Yeah, and the krell, I think,were on the verge of bringing
(48:05):
all their consciousness togetherand moving to another level of
existence, whatever, and theyforgot about the fears and the
darkness within them and theydestroyed themselves in one
night.
Was the plot of the movie right?
They forgot about the darknessand they created this huge
monster as a result of that.
(48:28):
I worry about the internet likethat is that it really has sped
things up as far as I.
I worry about where it's almostlike that's where all our
consciousness is, and but whatall?
Where all our fears are rooted?
Yeah, and are we just and thethe capability of that to take
(48:51):
us down to, to destroy us?
But there's something.
Something else, though, I think,is that I don't watch a whole
lot of sports, but I like whatsomeone said about Nick Saban.
What they liked is if anothercoach imploded, nick would go
and show up with a rope and ashovel and say I see you've dug
yourself a pit.
Can I help you get out?
I like that.
(49:12):
That's always been a challengefor us.
If you see someone has reallymade a mess of it, instead of
gossiping about them or,unfortunately, finding joy in
that, I think our culture reallyloves to tear people down.
Can I be the person who showsup with the rope and the shovel
and says I'm here to help out?
Except for the grace of God, Icould have probably done that,
(49:33):
or maybe I did that and itdidn't blow up as much for me
when I was stupid like that.
But I love this idea of in aculture that becomes more
impersonal, people should beable to look at the church and
say they're the experts on howto make relationships work.
They should be able to see that.
(49:54):
And here are the people thatknow how to make relationships
work.
They should be able to see that.
And here are the people thatknow how to work through
difficulties either in amarriage or between brethren.
I hope that we could.
As much as we were known forknowing the Bible, I hope that
we would be known just as muchfor these people know how to
make relationships work.
Speaker 1 (50:13):
I'm not going to disagree with that.
We have some of the sameproblems in the church as well.
Yes, I think this is ageneration that has answers but
don't know any of the context toany of the answers.
They have learned how to useGoogle, they have learned how to
use all the right keywords,they have learned how to find
the answer just in time, butthey don't know what the answer
means.
They have learned how to findthe answer just in time, but
(50:34):
they don't know what the answermeans.
Look, and I think that's adanger.
I think the other thing that Ireally do truly worry about with
this generation is they do sopoorly with boredom, they do so
poorly with unfilled minutes,and the way that they fill them
is triviality and justvacuousness.
In other words, they don'tthink about anything.
If it doesn't come easily, theyget rid of it, they're done,
(50:57):
and I can't tell you howgrateful I am for a mother who
said don't come home before it'sdark.
Speaker 2 (51:06):
What do?
Speaker 1 (51:06):
you want us to do?
I don't know, but you're notgoing to do it here and you're
going to figure this out.
My kids again, and I am atechnology cheerleader.
The same thing that you'resaying, which is this can show
you so many bad answers, canjust as easily, if you figure
out how to do this well, showyou really good answers.
(51:27):
It can connect you with peoplethat you will never have the
ability to meet face-to-face.
That can change your life invery positive ways.
I'm grateful for that, but Irecognize the opposite is just
as true and maybe more true.
It can fill your life with catvideos.
That will not help you at all,but they will distract you to no
(51:47):
end.
Speaker 2 (51:49):
Oh yeah, those are great observations.
I consider myself blessed beingborn and where in Oregon, when
the winter gets dark at 430 on adreary day and bedtime was like
8 or 9, right, and mom's notgoing to allow us to just watch
TV.
I had to learn to entertainmyself.
I had to learn to get in my ownhead and come up with scenarios
(52:10):
and when I was berry picking,that's what my mom really taught
me of how to work through thatdifficult part of the day, when
you're bored and you're hot andyou're tired, but mentally get
in a good spot.
I think what you said is thoseare some really great thoughts.
One thing I'd like to add tothat is.
(52:31):
I like what someone said about acareer Chase good management,
and I think that's the samething spiritually and maybe with
the mentor chase goodmanagement.
Always choose good managementover money.
These people know what they'redoing right.
They know how.
This is a great company.
They got a great product, butthey have great customer service
(52:52):
.
This is a great company.
They got a great product, butthey have great customer service
.
And those are the people that Iwant to build with my network of
people.
I want the good managementpeople and you're going to need
a network, but not only that.
As you grow older, you're goingto need to keep building that
network, because Cindy and Ihave seen couples that we
(53:15):
thought we were going to bedoing things in retirement with
and it stayed together or theydidn't stay faithful right or
they died.
When I'm down here in Florida,that's what I'm trying to do is
keep adding people to thatnetwork people that will
encourage me and build me up andpeople I can learn from and
grow and stuff like that andkeep adding those people to your
life, and all the way through,because people are going to come
(53:40):
in and out of that.
You're going to lose somefriends too.
They're going to come in andout of that.
I think you just need to keepadding people to that.
Speaker 1 (53:50):
Summarize what we've been talking about, because I
think the mistake somebody couldhear is that this doesn't have
a lot of structure.
But I'll go ahead and tell youI've come away with at least
five different things that we'veharped on pretty clearly that
if you were going to try andinfluence somebody else,
especially somebody who'syounger, what are some of the
important things that they needto hone in on that a couple old
(54:12):
guys like you and me canactually teach them about.
Speaker 2 (54:17):
Protect your headspace, protect your heart.
Yes, yeah, I love the ideathere's more than one version of
you.
Yeah, Plan your steps to bringabout that high-functioning
version of you.
And Kenny, I really Kenny.
The interesting thing as wetravel, there are people I know
(54:38):
and I will run into alow-functioning version of them
and say that's what they wouldhave been like without God, or
guess what.
I will run.
I know people that are verylow-functioning and I'll run
into someone that has ittogether and I'll say it didn't
have to go that way, that wouldbe something else.
(54:59):
Avoid the spiral of futility.
You're going to get hurt, Arelationship's going to end,
Someone's not going to want todate you, A girl's going to
throw your heart in a Cuisinartand you're not going to get the
job you want.
You may sound like you want tobe a doctor and they might say
you're just not that smart.
The easy thing is, when you gethurt, to isolate yourself and
(55:19):
to get bitter, and I think for acouple years of my life that
happened to me.
I started to isolate myself,feel sorry for myself and get
bitter, and that's a downwardspiral and I guess I would say
is don't let that happen to youand if you see somebody else
understand what they're goingthrough and try to pull them out
(55:39):
of that.
Being a Christian has made adifference in every single
aspect of my life.
Don't sell it short.
It's going to transform you.
Speaker 1 (55:51):
I think one of the things that you said that really
kind of resonated with me it'sthe relationships that will
change you.
And you're talking about arelationship with God and you
will always fare poorly in thatrelationship because you're
never that good.
But the more you chip away atthe parts of yourself that are
(56:15):
not more like God, the betteroff you are.
Again, number one that idea ofrelationships, the relationship
you have with God, therelationship you have with
people.
What relationships areimportant for you to get rid of?
Because not all relationshipsare good for you and you're not
good for all people.
There's some relationshipswhere you're cutting that
(56:37):
relationship is actually betterfor them that maybe it's a good
idea for you to sever thatconnection.
Do you see what I'm?
saying there Do you agree?
Speaker 2 (56:45):
with that.
Yeah, you're not the answer.
You're not the personnecessarily to fix everybody
else.
Someone else might be a lotbetter than you.
Speaker 1 (56:54):
Right, yeah, the other thing is and we didn't
talk about this, but I think youagree with this that you better
have a pretty good idea of whatsuccess looks like before you
let somebody else try to imposetheir idea of what success looks
like.
Speaker 2 (57:08):
Oh yeah, anytime I see the ad of and multi-level
marketing is like this Twopeople in their 30s on jet skis
and they're retired.
No, that's a lie.
Okay, you're right.
What does success look like?
Hopefully the Christianslistening to this podcast.
Kenny, I remember years ago,new Christian, someone would hit
(57:32):
you with something out of theblue trying to trip you up,
Absolutely absolutely.
And I'd try to have a Bibleanswer to it and I'd look back
and feel like I wish I'd hadmore time, I wish I'd
encountered that later.
I think my answer was true, butit just was not the best answer
.
Right, it was not the best,yeah, and if you're thinking
(57:54):
that you'd like some of thoseopportunities back, here's what
I would tell our listeners.
But you won the argument in thesense that the last 20, 30, 40
years of you just trying to livea consistent, godly example,
you've won and I think we don'tthink about that enough, kenny,
of how far we've come, yeah, howfar we've come, and you've won
(58:18):
that argument.
Life is saying that, yeah,hopefully, your marriage is
saying that, and therelationship with your brethren
are saying that.
The peace you have and theorderliness of your you might
say your mental life or yourspiritual life and et cetera,
and the depth that you have nowGive yourself credit for how far
you've come.
(58:38):
I don't think we put enoughvalue on somebody else caring or
the sense that they care aboutwhat happens to me, Kenny, I
heard about in hospitals youwill have babies that will be
born to mothers that are drugaddicted and stuff like that.
Mother leaves or flakes out orwhatever, and there are
volunteers that come in Kennyand just hold these babies and
(59:01):
you can have a baby that'scompletely healthy and that baby
can die if it doesn't getphysical touch.
And I think that just somethingstruck me that said and again,
this is not being againstmedication, because I appreciate
all the stuff we have, oh, metoo but there are limits to what
medication can do and on acertain level medication cannot
(59:23):
take the place of human touchand just someone in your life
saying you, you matter.
Speaker 1 (59:30):
Mark, we've talked a lot, what did we miss?
Speaker 2 (59:35):
I don't know.
Speaker 1 (59:40):
I'm sure there's a lot more that we could talk
about.
I'm sure there's a lot more wewill talk about at some point.
I enjoyed it.
I end all my podcasts with begood and do good.
Yes, what's good about being amentor to somebody?
Speaker 2 (59:51):
You'll gain more than they do.
Speaker 1 (59:55):
Thank you for doing this.
I really enjoyed this.
Speaker 2 (59:57):
Thanks for the opportunity.
Speaker 1 (01:00:03):
I realize these are two middle-aged guys talking
about what it meant for them tolearn stuff as they were growing
up, but I think one of thethings that I appreciate about
having a conversation like thisis it starts helping us put
things in perspective.
What's really important, whatdid we learn as we were growing
up and what do we think we knownow?
That, I think, is just asvaluable for people who want to
(01:00:26):
be mentors as it is for peoplewho need to be mentored.
I appreciate what Mark had tosay.
For people who need to bementored, I appreciate what Mark
had to say.
I think one of the things thatI learned from Mark and it was
kind of underlined is theimportance of relationships and
just seeing yourself as a partof a bigger picture where, quite
(01:00:46):
frankly, you are not the maincharacter.
You are simply a part of God'sstory.
Thanks, mark, I appreciatehaving this conversation with
you.
As for the good thing I'mthinking about, I want to say
again that I appreciate so muchyour listening to these programs
.
These are the conversationsthat change my faith and I
(01:01:08):
appreciate this more than youknow.
I've been working with HalHammons with the conference.
He has been basically takingthe lead on this much more than
I have, and I am so grateful forHal and what he's doing.
I do plan to have someannouncements very shortly.
I recently contracted a newprovider rather than Hoova, so I
(01:01:30):
am just finishing up thedetails with that.
I hope you've noticed also thatI've been putting out some
shorter episodes calledBalancing the Christian Life
Quick Thoughts.
I've wanted to experiment witha shorter format for a little
while now, just to see what theysounded like and to see if they
made any sense.
Let me know if you like them,let me know if you don't like
them, and I appreciate yourfeedback on that.
(01:01:52):
So until next time, let's begood and do good.
In this episode of Balancing the Christian Life, we
talk about giving yourselfadvice.
Welcome to Balancing theChristian Life.
I'm Dr Kenny Embry.
Join me as we discover how tobe better Christians and people
in the digital age.
I don't care how old you are.
(00:30):
I suspect there are times whenyou wish you could talk to a
younger version of yourself andgive yourself advice.
We can call these regrets ormistakes, but the fact is all of
us know talking to a version ofourselves in the past is simply
not possible.
Sure, it's the plot lines ofsome interesting fantasy or
science fiction movies, like theBack to the Future franchise,
but we all understand we justcan't have that happen.
However, what is possible istalking to someone who is
(00:54):
farther down life's journey thanyou are.
I've talked about mentorship onthe program a few times before
and the conversation I havetoday slots very nicely into
that topic.
I decided to talk to Mark Dunnagain about advice he would give
a younger version of himself.
I've talked to Mark before.
He and his wife Cindy have beentraveling in their RV for a
(01:15):
while now, visiting differentchurches.
Mark was in Wesley Chapel,florida, where I live and where
he also owns a house, and wewere able to get together a few
times for a book club that Ihave with Edwin Crozier and a
few others, and also just to sitdown and talk for a while.
Before they began their nomadiclifestyle, mark was an
(01:36):
evangelist for many years in theOregon area.
So let's just start there.
Mark, if you could talk to ayounger version of yourself,
what would you say?
Speaker 2 (01:46):
I'm not sure if I would have listened to me and in
fact I might have annoyed thecurrent version of Mark, but I
guess here are some things Ilook back upon the realization
that math I was taking in school, that was God's math, that math
is the way everything in theuniverse was put together.
I often tell people theuniverse is like Mexican food
(02:10):
you know how?
A burrito and a taco enchiladathey all have the same
ingredients, but they're justput together differently.
Speaker 1 (02:16):
The universe is like that.
I understand what you're saying, which is when we look at the
world and see all the patterns,this is God's pattern.
This isn't our pattern and theidea that there's intelligence
behind that.
Again, we're looking atevidence that if we were
atheists, we would definitelyinterpret the same stuff
differently.
I think you're absolutely right.
I don't know that I would havelistened to a 54-year-old guy
(02:40):
when I was 16, 17, 18.
I think there's an arrogancethat comes with youth.
Speaker 2 (02:47):
There is, I know, something that happened to me.
I'm not sure if this happenswith other people, but I started
as a freshman in high schooland you're nobody, I mean you're
stripped of all dignity as afreshman.
Speaker 1 (02:58):
The girls don't even see you anymore.
Speaker 2 (03:00):
I think I still looked up to my teachers, but
something happened betweenjunior and senior year.
I came back and a lot of themarriages had changed and all of
a sudden I really did it likeyou guys are supposed to be the
ones telling me how to conductmyself and live, and you guys
can't even handle your own lives, and that really, I think,
(03:22):
knocked me off the rails alittle bit, maybe a little bit
more cynical, and that really, Ithink, knocked me off the rails
a little bit, maybe a littlebit more cynical.
Can I trust anybody or thesepeople that are trying to teach
me this?
It doesn't even looklike—because I remember and I
wasn't a Christian there was adance I was at right One of the
school dances after thebasketball or football game,
yeah, and one of the teacherswas chasing the other teacher
around and it was almost likethe kids were having to watch
(03:52):
the teachers.
So I don't know, I really didn'tknow what to read.
I was not a reader.
I love to read now, but no onereally said, hey, you might want
to read this or that, and sincebecoming a Christian, I've
tried to catch up.
What should I be reading, right?
What are the great works ofliterature.
What are?
Speaker 1 (04:05):
the great stories.
Yeah, I completely understandthat.
One of the things that happenedwhen I was probably 30, I
stopped listening to music.
I just started listening tostuff to try and learn stuff,
and I don't know why, but thatjust became a lot more
interesting to me than figuringout another way that somebody is
going to talk about love andput it in eight bars of a
(04:27):
musical.
So that's one of the thingsthat changed as I got older.
I understand we're young andstupid.
I think we're all young andstupid and we all make a lot of
the same kinds of mistakes.
But when you look at the dumbstuff that I did, I don't know
if I'd be nearly as smart as Iam now however smart I am if I
(04:48):
didn't make some of those dumbdecisions.
Did you make any dumb decisionswhen you were young?
Speaker 2 (04:53):
Oh, yes, one thing, though.
Fortunately, I think a numberof the really dumb ones maybe
did not fully catch me.
The things I think of is when Iwas younger, I was busy, quick.
I really didn't spend much timetrying to comprehend the
directions, and I've tried tolearn from that.
(05:13):
Now I'm a lot more careful,like when I'm taking something
apart or if I'm threadingsomething.
Hey, these people thatengineered this product probably
knew what they were doing whenthey put it together.
And it's things like reread theinstructions a couple of times,
right, pull out all the pieces,take it a little slower.
(05:36):
That's something I've tried tolearn.
The other thing is hey, if youneed to address something, you
need to address it because it'snot going away.
Thing is hey, if you need toaddress something, you need to
address it because it's notgoing away.
Like what problems leftunresolved just snowball into a
lot bigger problems.
Speaker 1 (05:52):
They can yeah that's absolutely true.
Speaker 2 (06:00):
And then I remember in high school as a freshman,
the one thing I quit in life.
I obviously quit some sinfulthings, but I quit football and
I would not have been a star.
But I always regret, even if Iwas set on the bench all year
long, I didn't stick with it andthat left a bad taste in my
mouth that I'd quit something.
And after that I did freshmanbasketball, which was no fun at
(06:21):
all 18 players, seven of thekids played and the rest of us
never played a single minute ofthe entire season and it was
practices at 5.30 in the morningand it was cold and dark and
it's the Oregon winter and it'slike there were so many times
like this is no fun.
But I stuck with it because Ijust did not like that feeling
(06:42):
of I didn't follow through onsomething.
I began but it got hard, it wasno fun, but something in me
said that's not a good patternto follow Because there's
probably going to be a lot ofthings up ahead that are not
going to be any fun at all.
Speaker 1 (06:56):
That you're going to have to stick with.
You're talking aboutpersistence and patience and
following through with acommitment.
There are times to quitsomething.
My NBA career was never goingto get off the ground.
I'm five foot six and there's apoint at which I need to
recognize I don't have thetalent.
I'm never going to be an NBAstar.
There are things that I can dothat are uniquely my strengths.
(07:20):
If I keep on trying to be anNBA star, I will pour a lot of
effort into something that willnever be that good.
Let me ask you this way when isit a good idea to stop it, and
what is it a good idea to?
Speaker 2 (07:37):
keep on going.
Oh, that's a great question.
I'm not musically inclined.
Speaker 1 (07:42):
I wish I was.
Speaker 2 (07:43):
I had a little snare drum and my brother started
guitar lessons and we buy sheetmusic for Rolling Stones, wild
Horses, right.
So we're in the back bedroom,he's strumming on the guitar,
I'm playing on my little snaredrum and our sister-in-law comes
in because we had an olderbrother, like 14 years older,
wow.
So she said what are you guysdoing?
We're just rocking out.
(08:04):
She sits on the bed for maybe30 seconds.
She, after hearing us, standsup, swears and leaves the room
and a light bulb went on.
What made my little brotherlike maybe we need to have a
plan B?
And I don't know if I have ananswer to the question other
than just the principles inscripture.
But when you have parents, haveyou ever been to a concert?
(08:27):
And there's sometimes some girlup near the stage and she's
dancing.
It's ugly dancing and she'ssaying come on, everybody, let's
dance.
No one ever told her she didn'thave a mom and dad that said,
hey, no one wants to see that.
If you have people in your lifethat can do that for you, just
say, hey, that's not a good look, and hopefully you have some
(08:48):
people that.
And I think I had a few peoplegrowing up that were like that.
Speaker 1 (08:53):
What you're talking about.
There is a backdoor way oftalking about mentorship.
There are only some people whocan get away with saying
something like what you'retalking about.
Yes, let me ask this questionin this way, which is you're
right.
Everybody needs that person intheir life that can quietly say
you're being an idiot right now.
You need to stop that, becausethat's not good for you, it's
(09:15):
not good for anybody else, andyou're just going to look more
and more stupid.
How do you start being a mentorto somebody who desperately
needs one.
Speaker 2 (09:23):
I think you have to be real and authentic.
I don't know if you can go out.
I don't think you can go outand advertise yourself like a
mentor available here.
That would be one thing I thinkin my life.
Some of it has maybe shown upnaturally.
And, kenny, this is thefrustrating thing.
There are people that reallyneed that.
But there's two sides to thiscoin.
(09:45):
One has to be willing to takethe time to teach, but one has
to be willing to listen.
Over the years, I trained anumber of younger preachers in
Oregon, which was really a—Iwould encourage all preachers
to—because I think it keeps yousharp.
I think it keeps you fromgetting dull and stale and
stagnant and maybe stuck in yourmaybe the way that you present
(10:07):
things.
One of the great things thathelps you grow is having a
younger guy watching you, and Iknow a lot of people.
It's a lot of work, right?
I'm going to be taking him outto lunch.
He's going to go camping withus.
He's going to be at the house.
To this day, most of the guys Iworked with on our trip that we
did over the last three and ahalf four years I stayed in
their homes.
Some of them have come to staywith me.
(10:29):
Are you really interested in along-term relationship with this
person?
Maybe that's it.
If it's like hey, I got fiveminutes for you, half an hour
for you, whatever, and you'rejust one of many things on my
schedule versus you could bepart of my family in a sense now
.
And you'll always be part of myfamily in a sense now, and
you'll always be part of myfamily.
I think people can sense thedifference.
This guy really does have agenuine interest in what I
(10:52):
become, kenny.
The guys that I thought did thebest in the program all who
were willing to listen, the guysthat really flourished Because
they would get a lot of feedback, sometimes from me and
sometimes from the congregation,but the guys that really took
the time to listen to what otherpeople were trying to tell them
(11:12):
.
Those relationships tended toblossom and bloom, and so did
the guys.
Speaker 1 (11:18):
Yeah, here's the trick, and you will recognize
this.
Everybody's willing to give outadvice, and not all advice is
very good.
If you're a 19, 20, 21-year-oldnew preacher and you've got a
room full of people that are allgiving you conflicting advice,
(11:39):
how do you decide what's good,how do you decide what you can
safely ignore, and how do youdecide they're actually
criticizing themselves.
They're not really criticizingme, because I think all of those
things happen.
Some people will give youadvice that they consider is the
best they can give, but it'sjust irrelevant.
Some people will give youadvice that you definitely need
(12:01):
to take to heart, and there'ssome people that are not
criticizing you.
They're criticizing theirrelationship with their parents,
and you just recognize okay,that's not anything I can touch.
So, again, you're talking to ayounger version of yourself.
You're talking to a youngerpreacher, and how do you help
(12:21):
them sort through all the stuffthat may or may not be helpful?
Speaker 2 (12:26):
One thing I would say is look at the source.
Yeah, jesus said you'll knowthem by their fruits and
hopefully, kenny, if a youngperson comes to me and says, hey
, I got some questions, orwhatever, hopefully it's,
because maybe, hopefully,they've looked at my life, my
marriage.
Yeah, how I handle myself, Ithink that says my life, my
marriage.
Yeah, hell, I hand them myself.
I think that says a lot.
(12:46):
My relationships.
Does this guy know what he'sdoing?
Yeah, I would tell the youngman look at your source.
The person here is trying totell you something.
Does it look like they knowwhat they're doing?
And if they don't take it inand see what you can find with
it?
And if you find someone doingit right, their relationships
look really healthy and theirmarriage looks really solid.
(13:11):
And they've been married for somany years and it still looks
like they like each other.
Man that's, and you can tellthat.
You can tell when something'soff.
You can tell when something'soff.
Speaker 1 (13:22):
You usually can and I think one of the things that
I've heard in the past and youmight agree with this or
disagree with this never takecriticism from somebody that you
would not take advice from, andthere's a wisdom to that that I
really appreciate.
There are definitely peoplethat are just willing to
criticize because criticism isinfinitely easier.
(13:43):
Criticize because criticism isinfinitely easier.
It's easy to take a perfectstandard and figure out how you
fall short of that perfectstandard without any idea that
you're going to help them grow.
That's not helpful.
But when you come up againstthe perfect Jesus, whatever it
is he's criticizing you on, youneed to take seriously, because
(14:03):
that's something you really needto work on.
We don't have Jesus except forin a text.
Now, how do you decide You'retalking about?
By their fruits?
You shall know them and that'sabsolutely good advice.
But some of these people arepeople you just met.
If you're out of luck withhaving a history, how do you
figure out if they have a goodfuture?
Speaker 2 (14:25):
Well, you know what?
I think it's something I heardabout Elon Musk and I'm not
necessarily this huge fan, but Ithought this was interesting.
Engineers would come to him andsay we have a problem.
And they said I don't want tohear that, I want to hear we
have a solution.
And the thought was thatsomeone said you can fall in
(14:48):
love with the problem, and Ithink preachers can fall in love
with problems, and sometimesyou have a sermon and you go the
sermon's about the problem.
Speaker 1 (14:54):
Okay, but we know what the problem is.
What's the solution?
Speaker 2 (14:55):
And I guess one thing I would say is this person who
has this criticism for you?
Do they have any solutions?
that they're bringing to thetable for you?
Do they have any solutions thatthey're bringing to the table?
I think, kenny, sometimes, likeif you're struggling with a
(15:16):
temptation or addiction, I thinkyou can tell by what people say
to you advice or whatever, orsolutions.
I'm looking for someone withsolutions and someone who just
doesn't want to complain abouthow bad the world is, or the
church or whatever.
Okay, or we're not evangelizing, okay, what's your answer?
I want to hear someone hasanswered.
I love the idea, too, of goingto the text and going back to
(15:38):
Jesus.
After a day I heard a storyabout the Hungarian Revolution
of 56, which doesn't seem likemany people.
They've just forgotten aboutthat right.
So the people push back on thecommunist regime, but the
Soviets come in with their tanksand troops and just crush it.
But Western journalists werethere for a while and they were
(16:01):
interviewing people.
And there was one girl who saidman, they're trying to
brainwash us in schools andthey're telling us lies.
And the journalist said to themother your daughter's different
, because a lot of the youngpeople we're interviewing are
afraid, sunken, timid.
Your daughter's very confident.
What are you guys doing?
The mother says every nightafter dinner, we go down to the
(16:24):
basement and we read the Bibleand we wash their brains of the
brainwashing.
Not everything we hear is good,right, and even from other
Christians not all advice thatwe've—even from solid people,
right.
And maybe I just need to pickup the Bible and read it and
give myself a nightly bath,because we all reek a little bit
(16:45):
at the end of the day indealing with the culture we live
in, right, the world we live in.
I'm just going to go in thereand try to cleanse myself a
little bit of.
Did I pick up any bad ideastoday?
I don't want those to root inmy brain or my heart.
Speaker 1 (17:00):
Oh yeah, boy.
Yeah, I understand that.
Going back to that idea ofmentorship and helping somebody
who's younger everybody at 17,18, 19, 20, 20, you know, right
in there they think they haveall the answers before they even
know a good question to ask.
I call it the arrogance ofyouth, but it's also the
arrogance of inexperience.
(17:20):
What are some experiences thatyou've had that helped teach you
something that was reallyimportant?
Speaker 2 (17:30):
I was not raised in a Christian home.
My mom was a little bitreligious, my dad really.
No interest in it.
I might've been fifth grade.
Summer was coming up.
Mom had signed me up for avacation Bible school.
And man was I.
Why do I have to go?
Okay?
So my mom tells a story aboutlong before I was born.
(17:52):
About a year or so, a cousin Ihad been in the Navy was an
electrician, came back engaged,hit by a drunk driver.
Okay, in the hospital hiskidneys are starting to shut
down.
At that time there was nothingthey could do.
And he looks at his mom andsays, mom, what's next?
And my mom said and she did nothave a good answer and she said
(18:14):
I don't want you lying in thehospital bed one day not knowing
what's next.
So you're going.
Man, I didn't have an argumentto that, right, I don't know.
That just stuck with mesomething that my mom said I
need to know what's next.
I love something.
I think and maybe this is agood question you could ask
(18:37):
someone that you're trying tohelp and they don't seem to be
listening.
If you keep doing what you'redoing, what's going to happen?
If you don't change anything,then what's the outcome going to
be?
And there was something Cindysaid, because I met her and I
was not a Christian when I mether and I was probably baptized
about a month later after I mether, but I said something very
(19:00):
foolish, and why?
do I need to do what God says.
And then she responded backbecause he's God.
Sometimes it's those simpleresponses that clarify your
framework, to say that's right,he is God.
And who am I to argue with that?
If I cannot even alter one ofthe laws of physics of the
(19:22):
universe, who am I to try tocome up with my own moral
standard?
That's a very humbling thing.
Who is God to you?
Now I would say my and that's agreat question, and I'm trying
to explore that a little bitmore Kenny, from a male side,
(19:43):
because if I was a woman, someof the imagery in Scripture
would be easier.
The bride of Christ right, I'mpart of the bride and this is my
husband.
It's a little weird for a man,right?
I think the one that appeals tome now at this point in my life
is the idea of a refuge.
As you get older, you realizeall the things that you don't
(20:06):
have control over and man, allthe bad and evil stuff out there
, and some evil person couldjust sweep in and you don't even
know it and wipe you outfinancially or whatever it is
steal your identity.
Speaker 1 (20:19):
That's a scary thought.
Speaker 2 (20:21):
I've read a lot of the Psalms.
More and often that's the themeis God's my refuge?
God's my refuge.
And also, the older I get tryto realize that my health isn't
my refuge, even though Iappreciate it.
Whatever money I have in mybank, in retirement, that's not
my refuge, whatever assets or ahome or whatever I have, or how
(20:42):
the car is doing or et cetera.
Because I think when I wasyounger I put more stock in that
and I may have argued, yeah,god was still in there, but
these other things were nice,these other things were little
supports along with God, andI've tried to reach the point of
none of that really.
I appreciate that, but at theend of the day, that could all
(21:03):
be gone tomorrow.
And if I lost everythingtomorrow health, money, et
cetera like Job, could I stillbe able to rejoice that I have a
relationship with God andthat's more valuable than all
those other things combined.
Speaker 1 (21:18):
I agree with you that he absolutely is a refuge, but
he's also—both of us have alittle bit of mileage on our
odometer.
I'm 54 years old, my health isnot what it used to be and all
my investments are fine, but I'mlooking at my retirement and
I'm thinking, boy, this shouldbe a lot more than it is right
(21:40):
now and that's not very helpfulfor me either.
And you talked a little bitabout experiences and I'll go
ahead and tell you I don't mindhaving stuff, I like stuff, but
I would much rather spend mymoney on experiences than on
stuff, because I would muchrather reminisce with Katie, my
wife, about what we did andwhere we went and things like
(22:01):
that.
Then, look, we got this nicelamp.
I'll defend that.
But the thing about it is, atthe end of the day, I don't know
that experiences do a lot forme either.
It's relationships, and when Ithink about who God is, do you
think that the relationship withGod is the most important thing
you got going?
Speaker 2 (22:21):
Oh yeah, life is all about relationships.
People will say what's thecoolest thing you've seen on
your trip?
Nature's gorgeous, but it's thepeople.
It's God's people.
But, more importantly, none ofthat's going to work unless
God's at the center.
There's something in you thatno earthly relationship can
(22:42):
satisfy, which CS Lewis, I think, said is proof that you've been
created for another world.
That's where the rubber meetsthe road, and I think that's an
issue of do you trust that ordon't you?
Because I think some people hitthat wall, kenny, and say I'm
going to stay with my stuff.
I think every Christian reads apoint like okay, am I willing
(23:04):
to really put him first?
Because that's a scary thing.
Yeah, Right, but man, and Idon't know how many people push
through on that.
Jesus said the way is narrow,but man, the reward is.
I see people and as we'vetraveled, I've seen people that
I would say.
(23:25):
I went looking for the good aswe traveled, and so I tried not
to go looking for the bad, but Ithink I did run into people
that were modern-day Josephs andDaniels that really were that.
Yeah, they're all in Kenny,it's interesting.
As a child, I ran into a numberof bad examples that could have
completely turned me off fromthe faith.
I remember being in anEpiscopal church Bible study as
(23:51):
a kid and the teacher wastalking to us about knowing the
flood and everyone's coloringtheir picture and he said oh, by
the way, kids, none of thisreally happened and I caught
that Nobody else did and I thinkI put my foot down.
After that, I'm not going, I'mnot giving up my Sunday for
something.
That's not true.
So that threw me off.
For a while.
Had a number of relatives thatwere very inconsistent, pretty
(24:15):
much hypocrites religiously.
But, kendi, when I was in sixthgrade, when I went to public
school, your mom and dad couldsign a form that a lady would
show up maybe once a month,maybe once every two weeks, take
you to a little church nextdoor up the street.
You would have a Bible studyand you would sing songs, pray
(24:36):
and come back.
That was allowed.
We'd been told that week thatthis woman who probably had been
coming and getting us fromsecond or third grade, her son,
had died in Vietnam and she hadbeen told that day she showed up
and she took us up there anddid what she had done before and
(24:56):
brought us back, and I put thatin the back of my head and said
not everyone's inconsistentMark.
There's something real aboutthat.
Maybe one day you'll figure itout, but there are some people
that are all in that stuck withme.
Not everyone's a hypocrite.
(25:18):
There are some true, genuinepeople out there.
Speaker 1 (25:23):
I think one of the things that I would say is I'm a
hypocrite.
I know I have been.
If you are somebody who knowsthat you could be better, what
should you be doing?
Speaker 2 (25:38):
You talked about and I think this is great advice for
young people.
What should you aim for?
We should aim for the ultimategood.
What's that?
That's God, that's arelationship with God, and
obviously they might push backand say, but that's going to
take a lot of work.
You read like Ephesians 5, itsays walk in love just as Christ
(25:58):
loved you or be imitators of meas I'm of Christ.
And you go like are you talkingto me?
Because you almost wanted tosay to Jesus do you really know
who I am, my faults and etcetera.
And he's saying no, I'm tellingyou to do that.
You're going like man.
That's going to take a lot ofwork, but can you think of any
(26:24):
endeavor more rewarding than I'mgoing to seek to pattern myself
like the Son of God in everyaspect I can?
I realize I never could becomeGod, but I'm going to seek to
become like Jesus.
There was a book called myAntonia.
(26:45):
The writer talked about acharacter that her brothers.
As the brothers grew older,they became more and more like
themselves.
I don't want that.
There's too much of Markalready.
I want to become more and morelike Christ and Kenny.
Wouldn't it be worth it tothrow everything into that and
see what would the best versionof me look like?
And not only that.
(27:06):
But I know I can never payJesus back for my salvation, but
it seems like at least a nicegift would be the best version
of myself through your help,through your word and through
the help of your people that Itried to bring about.
It doesn't always feelcomfortable because maybe it
(27:26):
feels you've never landed.
I feel that way now.
Speaker 1 (27:30):
I feel that I haven't landed right.
Speaker 2 (27:32):
I'm still up in the air a little bit, but maybe
that's the way it should feel.
I always want to have thatelement of me that's not set in
concrete yet, that there's stillmore of me that can come out in
a good way, that I'm stillmoldable, I'm still pliable.
I'm still moldable, I'm stillpliable.
(27:53):
I know young people and I evenget this voice.
Today, when you hear a voicethat will say you can't do it,
someone will say something andautomatically almost hear
yourself saying you can't dothat.
There's more than one possibleme.
There's all sorts of versionsof me that could exist, like a
(28:21):
low-functioning, ahigh-functioning, whatever, but
there's more than one future andthere's more than one me in the
future.
Right, and you should think butI want that to be the best
version of me I can make it, andI think that just means that,
(28:42):
man, all the things that we doon a daily basis may be like
this, because I know there's anumber of people like I'm not
getting on talking on somepodcast, right, I can make a
mistake or whatever.
I would really encourage peopleto push themselves.
Do uncomfortable things.
Speaker 1 (29:02):
Why.
Speaker 2 (29:05):
God deserves that, the kingdom needs that, the
local church needs that, becausethat's the people that go out
and talk to their neighbors.
That's the people that go outand talk to their neighbors, or
that's the people that try tohave the—that's the people that
are willing to have theuncomfortable conversations when
they disagree and try to worklike—I really like the idea,
(29:25):
kenny.
How can we approach this?
Like in marriage, or you'rehaving a disagreement with
someone?
How can we approach this wherewe both win?
Speaker 1 (29:32):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (29:40):
And, more importantly , god wins.
Does God need to win?
Let me rephrase that, kenny, heis going to win.
The only question is will he beglorified in my life and in the
church I'm a part of, in thefamily I'm a part of, in the
marriage I'm a part of?
Speaker 1 (29:53):
Maybe that's it.
What kind of insecure God doyou serve that needs glory all
the time?
Speaker 2 (29:58):
You know, in the book of Acts, chapter 17,.
It really is interesting whereit says that God doesn't need
anything but at the same time heis glorious, I mean, and I have
the chance.
I guess it's like with marriage.
(30:19):
I don't know if marriage needsany more reinforcement, but it
would sure be nice if mymarriage is honoring to the
institution, Right.
So I don't think it's an aspectthat he's vulnerable on that
point or jealous on that point.
It's just that's who he is.
that he's vulnerable on thatpoint or jealous on that point,
it's just that's who he is, andin light of everything he's done
(30:39):
for us, I really need to tellother people how great he is.
I think that does me a lot ofgood too, because I think
something's going to beglorified, kenny, something is
going to be glorified You'reright, I don't know.
Speaker 1 (30:56):
I've used this quote several times, which is Cecil B
DeMille, when he was promotingthe Ten Commandments, the movie
that he did.
Speaker 2 (31:01):
Oh yeah, that was family lore in our family.
Yeah, with Yul.
Speaker 1 (31:08):
Brynner.
Speaker 2 (31:09):
My daughter, Ashley, can quote vast sections of that
movie.
Speaker 1 (31:15):
One of the things that Cecil B DeMille said and I
don't know if it was originallywith him or not, but one of the
things that he said is we do notbreak the Ten Commandments, we
only break ourselves againstthem.
Yeah, and I think when it comesto, does God need our adoration
?
Does God need our glory?
No, god didn't need us.
The fact of the matter is, godwas doing just fine without us
and will do fine without us, butwe need God.
(31:36):
And when we start thinkingabout why do we need to glorify
God?
He didn't need it.
He never needed it.
But if you can't get off yourhigh horse and recognize that
you're an idiot and that yourdecisions are not usually that
good, and there's somebody who'ssmarter than you are, that has
already figured this out andhe's willing to give you answers
(31:58):
if you look for the answers,but he's not going to force you
to take those answers If youwant to make yourself like
Pharaoh, and that this is Ithink this is the way God
hardened Pharaoh's heart.
He thought of himself as a godand because he thought of
himself as a God, when Mosessays, you need to let these
people go so they can worship menot you, me.
(32:20):
Pharaoh could not respond tothat, because he already thought
of himself as equal to orbetter than the God that we have
.
Who was he hurting?
He wasn't hurting God, he wasonly hurting himself in that
situation.
Does that make sense?
Speaker 2 (32:34):
Yeah, and the entire nation, you know, kind of went
down with him right.
To me, kenny, that story is soamazing because after the death
of the firstborn, and they lethim go right, yeah, but then
they have a change of heart likewhat have we done?
Well, could we start with areview of the Nile turned to
(32:54):
blood?
Remember that and remember thedeath angel shows up.
Because when I look at thatbecause a lot of people go, why
would you do it?
Because most are not going toobey you and all of that type of
stuff.
But it's almost like God saysbut people need to have at least
(33:25):
the opportunity of this sort oflife, right, man?
That is a rip.
And when I realize that I'mgoing okay, so God doesn't play
it safe and I want to live insuch a way that there's many
(33:45):
years between me and my olderbrother, like 14 years, wow and
my parents were even thinkingabout adopting and my dad was
getting close to 45, and theywere going to cut him off at
that time adopting and my dadwas getting close to 45, and
they were going to cut him offat that time.
And my mom starts not feelingwell and goes into the doctor
and he says you're pregnant.
She says I can't get pregnant.
We've been trying to have ababy for 14 years.
(34:07):
You're pregnant.
But then he says don't get anyhopes up for this child, because
this child's probably going tobe born, born dead, because
there was a rh negative factorbetween her and my dad.
That was really bad, or he'sgoing to be severely you know,
mentally disabled and my dad wasabout 45 and I was born
(34:29):
thanksgiving day and bright,healthy, and my dad wasn't
really excited about being a dadagain.
He has this 14.
He's getting ready to retirefrom the navy right right now.
Here comes another baby, butthis is something that I was
told years after he passed away.
But my dad said what justseemed like mark wanted to be
(34:51):
here.
I'm hoping that's still myattitude.
Am I living in such a way whereI just really look like, hey, I
want to be part of this and Idon't want God regretting my
existence.
I'm glad Mark was born.
I'm glad Mark had theopportunity to live.
(35:13):
So, with all the things thatcomes at you in life, that's
really what I'm working on.
Is Mark's still happy to behere to be part of all of this?
Speaker 1 (35:21):
Yeah, when you're young and we've been talking
around being a mentor andtalking around, but honestly
we're also talking very directlyto.
These are values that youngerpeople need to understand and
they won't understand them whenthey're young Because it takes a
(35:42):
couple old guys like you and meto tell them that these are
roads that have destinations.
But once you end up there the401k not a bad direction to go,
but once you end up in 401k land, there's so much less than it
can offer you.
(36:02):
Taking all the vitamins, makesure you're getting all the
exercise.
There are advantages to thisthat it does make your body not
wear out quite as quickly, butthere are limits to what that
will be.
If you're talking to somebodywho's younger and you know this
because you were younger whatpriorities have changed over
(36:26):
your lifetime?
Speaker 2 (36:28):
Time.
You don't have as much time asyou think you have, yeah, so I
don't do any television and I'mnot telling people that's bad,
but it just with the time I haveleft.
Yeah, Wow, there's a lot ofbooks I haven't read yet.
Or podcasts or interviews, yeah,or things with really smart
(36:48):
people or whatever it may be.
You know, one is timemanagement Right, one of really
redeem the time and make everyopportunity count.
The other thing I think wouldbe is do not resent the
unexpected.
That's something else.
I tried to change that aboutmyself because that means that
(37:10):
I'm going to learn something.
Hopefully I'm going to grow,have a chance to exercise some
patience.
Don't resent difficulties, theunexpected things not going as
planned in your life.
Speaker 1 (37:27):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (37:28):
And I guess that importance of relationships and,
while they're alive, tellpeople how much they've meant to
you.
Yeah, someone went to a funeraland they said people at the
funeral were pretty importantpeople and said some wonderful
things and it dawned on him butthe person who died heard none
of it.
Speaker 1 (37:51):
Yeah, there's a writer and he was making the
point.
He said you know, right afteryou die, the best people in the
world are going to come and seethe best things about you and
you're going to miss it.
And that's a party you wouldactually enjoy being at.
Speaker 2 (38:09):
Something else that safety is an illusion.
There is no safe place here.
I learned that, hopefully.
I learned that on our trip whenwe left Oregon during the
height of COVID 2020, and peoplesaid, ooh, I don't know if it's
a good time to travel, butright after that the wildfires
came through and about ranpeople out of their homes and
it's like there is no safe place.
(38:33):
I'm looking at my health andI'm looking at this and I'm
looking at that.
I know my dad saw the doctor aweek before he died.
Goes in the doctor, sayslooking good man, drops over
dead a week later.
And the other thing is, ifyou're not taking care of your
soul, you are going todisintegrate.
(38:53):
That's something I think haschanged over the years.
I think when I was a newChristian, I had this idea that
there were people in the worldthat maybe they would not become
a Christian and they weren'tgoing to go to heaven, but at
least in this life they couldprobably somewhat keep their
life together.
And now I don't believe thatanymore.
If you don't have God in yourlife, I think you are
(39:14):
disintegrating on a certainlevel.
The more I get to know people,it's like not everything there
is as advertised, that you areand I like that word
disintegrate.
You are falling apart becauseit's that, I think, kenny, it's
your soul and you might sayspirit too, but I think that's
what keeps you, your feelings,your thoughts, your fears, in
(39:38):
the proper perspective.
Your body, all of that, that'sthat thing on the outside, that
kind of keeps it all nice andorganized without it just like
flying apart.
I was talking to someone at thecollege the nursing program,
right and I think she said someof the students said why do we
(40:00):
have to take all these Bibleclasses?
We're going to be nurses, right?
She said those are the classesthat are going to keep you
together, because you're goingto see death, pain, sorrow,
people are going to die in yourarms.
That you got to know.
And if you don't have God,you're going to fall apart.
It's just one of those things.
The Bible's right.
(40:20):
You got to love God with allyour heart, mind, soul and
strength.
Don't get this idea that I cangive God about 60% or so and
it's all going to work.
I don't think it's going towork unless every part of you is
in on this.
To me, the most challengingthing is reining in the thoughts
(40:43):
, that is.
I'm only going to think aboutwhat's true.
But this is sure fun to thinkabout over here.
Okay, but it's not true.
Yeah, but it's enjoyable, butit's not true.
Man taking every thoughtcaptive of 2 Corinthians 10 to
the obedience of ChristHopefully we're still working on
(41:06):
that and giving that a goodeffort until we die.
I always think about, as youget older, what if I get into a
point, kenny, that basicallyit's.
I'm just in a room in a chairand people bring me stuff right
and I'm stuck with my thoughts.
I want those to be some goodthoughts rate.
Speaker 1 (41:39):
And again, if I'm talking to somebody who's
younger, I think one of thethings that that I'm somebody
who likes to study things.
I, before I make an investment,I look at the company, I look
at what they make, I look at ifI like what they are and if I do
that like their values andthings like that.
But there comes a point whereand this is my problem I fall
into the paralysis of analysisthat I will think that I can
(42:01):
anticipate every problem, that Ican anticipate every, and at
some point there comes a pointwhere you actually have to pull
the trigger before you know allthe information, because you'll
never know all the information.
Important part of any of thesethings and we've talked about
this at the very outset which iswhat's really important to you,
and if it's relationships, arerelationships more important
(42:24):
than getting more information,than investing more in the stock
market?
Because here's the thing andyou probably already know this,
mark the best times that I'veever had with my children are
usually in the car, goingsomeplace, and it's going to the
track meet where I have themost important conversations
with my kid.
(42:45):
That's trash time to me.
That is time that is unfilled,that is wasted time.
It's on the way to somethingelse.
But when I look back over it,the most important parts of my
life were like what you'retalking about.
I was on my way to doingsomething else and the most
(43:06):
important part of that was notthe track meet, it was the
conversation we had on the way.
It was teaching my kid aboutvalues while I was dropping them
off at their friend's house.
That so much of.
If a relationship is really allthat important to you, do not
have the hubris to think thatyou can anticipate all the
(43:29):
important parts, because theimportant parts will sneak up on
you.
Do you see what I'm saying?
Do you agree?
Speaker 2 (43:35):
with this.
It's the informal.
Someone said the things thatyour kids will probably remember
more than anything else wouldbe those informal teaching
moments.
And I was thinking the otherday so what did I learn in
school?
And I went grade by grade.
Fifth grade, I got the timestables 1 through 12.
(43:58):
Sophomore in high school wastyping, but the other years I
can't tell you what I learned inthat year.
Now, maybe it's because I neverwent on into the academic world
.
Okay, yeah, but I can't tellyou a single mathematical
equation.
I ever learned a singlemathematical equation I ever had
, and so it wasn't the things inthe you might say official.
(44:23):
The things that I will rememberwill be things like my dad died
when I was 20.
And in a certain sense I don'tremember a single thing he ever
said to me, almost like a singleconversation, okay, like a
meaningful thing.
But I remember after he died andthere was a period of my time
of time after high school and alittle bit during high school.
I was really in a dark period,coming home drunk and stuff like
that, and my mom said I worriedabout you and I talked to your
(44:46):
dad about that.
Of course, my dad is now goneand he never told me this, but
he said don't worry about Mark,he will always be there for you.
And that tells me that, eventhough I was being a knucklehead
and jerk at the time, there wassomething he saw he never told
me face-to-face.
I believe in you, but that'swhat that conversation and that
(45:11):
was just an informal, it was notan official moment, just one of
those informal situations,right, yeah, Almost like just
mom decided to say that.
But the thoughts of childhoodare long thoughts.
I will remember that the restof my life and it's almost it's
the same thing, Kenny, I think,is that the times that your kids
(45:33):
will remember with you is notthe times you spent the most
money on vacation.
Yeah, they're going to rememberjust some regular time that you
guys went and did somethingthat didn't cost a whole lot.
Yeah, those are the importantmoments, but we often consider
them like this is just downtime.
(45:54):
Yeah, I agree.
Speaker 1 (46:01):
Again, the conversation that we've been
having has basically beentalking about values and what
kind of values you need tocommunicate to a younger
generation, and I think one ofthe things that that and I know
it's when we look at the idea ofculture and the culture that we
live in.
I'll go ahead and say this I Ithink it's easy for us to
(46:24):
criticize culture, becauseculture is always criticizable.
It's always the world that's.
That's exactly right, and backin ancient it was Babylon that
that was the problem.
But there's always been aBabylon.
There's always been a problem.
The culture has never gotten itright.
And, honestly, when we look atcriticizing culture, it's always
(46:44):
easy because it's always out ofstep with Christianity and,
frankly, you can often impose onculture with what you think are
the problems that they have,which is fair.
There are a lot of problemswith culture.
But let me ask you this andagain, we've been around a while
what's truly changed?
(47:06):
What's really changed?
What do we really need to worryabout?
What's popular today?
Speaker 2 (47:14):
Well, temptation is one click away.
Yeah, which, kenny?
I don't like that, but I thinkit's a fair test of who I am,
because if you can live in aculture where temptation is one
click away and resist, I thinkyou're the real deal.
Speaker 1 (47:30):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (47:31):
And that would be just.
Maybe that's not the sum totalof the test, but at least that
would be one marker indicator Iworry about.
It seems like people have ahard time having face-to-face
conversations anymore.
Speaker 1 (47:44):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (47:44):
I get that.
I worry about knee-jerkreaction.
With the internet, the worldcan have a knee-jerk reaction
all at once.
Yeah can have a knee-jerkreaction all at once.
Yeah, I'm not a big sci-fi guy,but one of the movies I
remember I had when we were inoregon vhs movie was forbidden
planet.
Yeah, and the krell, I think,were on the verge of bringing
(48:05):
all their consciousness togetherand moving to another level of
existence, whatever, and theyforgot about the fears and the
darkness within them and theydestroyed themselves in one
night.
Was the plot of the movie right?
They forgot about the darknessand they created this huge
monster as a result of that.
(48:28):
I worry about the internet likethat is that it really has sped
things up as far as I.
I worry about where it's almostlike that's where all our
consciousness is, and but whatall?
Where all our fears are rooted?
Yeah, and are we just and thethe capability of that to take
(48:51):
us down to, to destroy us?
But there's something.
Something else, though, I think,is that I don't watch a whole
lot of sports, but I like whatsomeone said about Nick Saban.
What they liked is if anothercoach imploded, nick would go
and show up with a rope and ashovel and say I see you've dug
yourself a pit.
Can I help you get out?
I like that.
(49:12):
That's always been a challengefor us.
If you see someone has reallymade a mess of it, instead of
gossiping about them or,unfortunately, finding joy in
that, I think our culture reallyloves to tear people down.
Can I be the person who showsup with the rope and the shovel
and says I'm here to help out?
Except for the grace of God, Icould have probably done that,
(49:33):
or maybe I did that and itdidn't blow up as much for me
when I was stupid like that.
But I love this idea of in aculture that becomes more
impersonal, people should beable to look at the church and
say they're the experts on howto make relationships work.
They should be able to see that.
(49:54):
And here are the people thatknow how to make relationships
work.
They should be able to see that.
And here are the people thatknow how to work through
difficulties either in amarriage or between brethren.
I hope that we could.
As much as we were known forknowing the Bible, I hope that
we would be known just as muchfor these people know how to
make relationships work.
Speaker 1 (50:13):
I'm not going to disagree with that.
We have some of the sameproblems in the church as well.
Yes, I think this is ageneration that has answers but
don't know any of the context toany of the answers.
They have learned how to useGoogle, they have learned how to
use all the right keywords,they have learned how to find
the answer just in time, butthey don't know what the answer
means.
They have learned how to findthe answer just in time, but
(50:34):
they don't know what the answermeans.
Look, and I think that's adanger.
I think the other thing that Ireally do truly worry about with
this generation is they do sopoorly with boredom, they do so
poorly with unfilled minutes,and the way that they fill them
is triviality and justvacuousness.
In other words, they don'tthink about anything.
If it doesn't come easily, theyget rid of it, they're done,
(50:57):
and I can't tell you howgrateful I am for a mother who
said don't come home before it'sdark.
Speaker 2 (51:06):
What do?
Speaker 1 (51:06):
you want us to do?
I don't know, but you're notgoing to do it here and you're
going to figure this out.
My kids again, and I am atechnology cheerleader.
The same thing that you'resaying, which is this can show
you so many bad answers, canjust as easily, if you figure
out how to do this well, showyou really good answers.
(51:27):
It can connect you with peoplethat you will never have the
ability to meet face-to-face.
That can change your life invery positive ways.
I'm grateful for that, but Irecognize the opposite is just
as true and maybe more true.
It can fill your life with catvideos.
That will not help you at all,but they will distract you to no
(51:47):
end.
Speaker 2 (51:49):
Oh yeah, those are great observations.
I consider myself blessed beingborn and where in Oregon, when
the winter gets dark at 430 on adreary day and bedtime was like
8 or 9, right, and mom's notgoing to allow us to just watch
TV.
I had to learn to entertainmyself.
I had to learn to get in my ownhead and come up with scenarios
(52:10):
and when I was berry picking,that's what my mom really taught
me of how to work through thatdifficult part of the day, when
you're bored and you're hot andyou're tired, but mentally get
in a good spot.
I think what you said is thoseare some really great thoughts.
One thing I'd like to add tothat is.
(52:31):
I like what someone said about acareer Chase good management,
and I think that's the samething spiritually and maybe with
the mentor chase goodmanagement.
Always choose good managementover money.
These people know what they'redoing right.
They know how.
This is a great company.
They got a great product, butthey have great customer service
(52:52):
.
This is a great company.
They got a great product, butthey have great customer service
.
And those are the people that Iwant to build with my network of
people.
I want the good managementpeople and you're going to need
a network, but not only that.
As you grow older, you're goingto need to keep building that
network, because Cindy and Ihave seen couples that we
(53:15):
thought we were going to bedoing things in retirement with
and it stayed together or theydidn't stay faithful right or
they died.
When I'm down here in Florida,that's what I'm trying to do is
keep adding people to thatnetwork people that will
encourage me and build me up andpeople I can learn from and
grow and stuff like that andkeep adding those people to your
life, and all the way through,because people are going to come
(53:40):
in and out of that.
You're going to lose somefriends too.
They're going to come in andout of that.
I think you just need to keepadding people to that.
Speaker 1 (53:50):
Summarize what we've been talking about, because I
think the mistake somebody couldhear is that this doesn't have
a lot of structure.
But I'll go ahead and tell youI've come away with at least
five different things that we'veharped on pretty clearly that
if you were going to try andinfluence somebody else,
especially somebody who'syounger, what are some of the
important things that they needto hone in on that a couple old
(54:12):
guys like you and me canactually teach them about.
Speaker 2 (54:17):
Protect your headspace, protect your heart.
Yes, yeah, I love the ideathere's more than one version of
you.
Yeah, Plan your steps to bringabout that high-functioning
version of you.
And Kenny, I really Kenny.
The interesting thing as wetravel, there are people I know
(54:38):
and I will run into alow-functioning version of them
and say that's what they wouldhave been like without God, or
guess what.
I will run.
I know people that are verylow-functioning and I'll run
into someone that has ittogether and I'll say it didn't
have to go that way, that wouldbe something else.
(54:59):
Avoid the spiral of futility.
You're going to get hurt, Arelationship's going to end,
Someone's not going to want todate you, A girl's going to
throw your heart in a Cuisinartand you're not going to get the
job you want.
You may sound like you want tobe a doctor and they might say
you're just not that smart.
The easy thing is, when you gethurt, to isolate yourself and
(55:19):
to get bitter, and I think for acouple years of my life that
happened to me.
I started to isolate myself,feel sorry for myself and get
bitter, and that's a downwardspiral and I guess I would say
is don't let that happen to youand if you see somebody else
understand what they're goingthrough and try to pull them out
(55:39):
of that.
Being a Christian has made adifference in every single
aspect of my life.
Don't sell it short.
It's going to transform you.
Speaker 1 (55:51):
I think one of the things that you said that really
kind of resonated with me it'sthe relationships that will
change you.
And you're talking about arelationship with God and you
will always fare poorly in thatrelationship because you're
never that good.
But the more you chip away atthe parts of yourself that are
(56:15):
not more like God, the betteroff you are.
Again, number one that idea ofrelationships, the relationship
you have with God, therelationship you have with
people.
What relationships areimportant for you to get rid of?
Because not all relationshipsare good for you and you're not
good for all people.
There's some relationshipswhere you're cutting that
(56:37):
relationship is actually betterfor them that maybe it's a good
idea for you to sever thatconnection.
Do you see what I'm?
saying there Do you agree?
Speaker 2 (56:45):
with that.
Yeah, you're not the answer.
You're not the personnecessarily to fix everybody
else.
Someone else might be a lotbetter than you.
Speaker 1 (56:54):
Right, yeah, the other thing is and we didn't
talk about this, but I think youagree with this that you better
have a pretty good idea of whatsuccess looks like before you
let somebody else try to imposetheir idea of what success looks
like.
Speaker 2 (57:08):
Oh yeah, anytime I see the ad of and multi-level
marketing is like this Twopeople in their 30s on jet skis
and they're retired.
No, that's a lie.
Okay, you're right.
What does success look like?
Hopefully the Christianslistening to this podcast.
Kenny, I remember years ago,new Christian, someone would hit
(57:32):
you with something out of theblue trying to trip you up,
Absolutely absolutely.
And I'd try to have a Bibleanswer to it and I'd look back
and feel like I wish I'd hadmore time, I wish I'd
encountered that later.
I think my answer was true, butit just was not the best answer
.
Right, it was not the best,yeah, and if you're thinking
(57:54):
that you'd like some of thoseopportunities back, here's what
I would tell our listeners.
But you won the argument in thesense that the last 20, 30, 40
years of you just trying to livea consistent, godly example,
you've won and I think we don'tthink about that enough, kenny,
of how far we've come, yeah, howfar we've come, and you've won
(58:18):
that argument.
Life is saying that, yeah,hopefully, your marriage is
saying that, and therelationship with your brethren
are saying that.
The peace you have and theorderliness of your you might
say your mental life or yourspiritual life and et cetera,
and the depth that you have nowGive yourself credit for how far
you've come.
(58:38):
I don't think we put enoughvalue on somebody else caring or
the sense that they care aboutwhat happens to me, Kenny, I
heard about in hospitals youwill have babies that will be
born to mothers that are drugaddicted and stuff like that.
Mother leaves or flakes out orwhatever, and there are
volunteers that come in Kennyand just hold these babies and
(59:01):
you can have a baby that'scompletely healthy and that baby
can die if it doesn't getphysical touch.
And I think that just somethingstruck me that said and again,
this is not being againstmedication, because I appreciate
all the stuff we have, oh, metoo but there are limits to what
medication can do and on acertain level medication cannot
(59:23):
take the place of human touchand just someone in your life
saying you, you matter.
Speaker 1 (59:30):
Mark, we've talked a lot, what did we miss?
Speaker 2 (59:35):
I don't know.
Speaker 1 (59:40):
I'm sure there's a lot more that we could talk
about.
I'm sure there's a lot more wewill talk about at some point.
I enjoyed it.
I end all my podcasts with begood and do good.
Yes, what's good about being amentor to somebody?
Speaker 2 (59:51):
You'll gain more than they do.
Speaker 1 (59:55):
Thank you for doing this.
I really enjoyed this.
Speaker 2 (59:57):
Thanks for the opportunity.
Speaker 1 (01:00:03):
I realize these are two middle-aged guys talking
about what it meant for them tolearn stuff as they were growing
up, but I think one of thethings that I appreciate about
having a conversation like thisis it starts helping us put
things in perspective.
What's really important, whatdid we learn as we were growing
up and what do we think we knownow?
That, I think, is just asvaluable for people who want to
(01:00:26):
be mentors as it is for peoplewho need to be mentored.
I appreciate what Mark had tosay.
For people who need to bementored, I appreciate what Mark
had to say.
I think one of the things thatI learned from Mark and it was
kind of underlined is theimportance of relationships and
just seeing yourself as a partof a bigger picture where, quite
(01:00:46):
frankly, you are not the maincharacter.
You are simply a part of God'sstory.
Thanks, mark, I appreciatehaving this conversation with
you.
As for the good thing I'mthinking about, I want to say
again that I appreciate so muchyour listening to these programs
.
These are the conversationsthat change my faith and I
(01:01:08):
appreciate this more than youknow.
I've been working with HalHammons with the conference.
He has been basically takingthe lead on this much more than
I have, and I am so grateful forHal and what he's doing.
I do plan to have someannouncements very shortly.
I recently contracted a newprovider rather than Hoova, so I
(01:01:30):
am just finishing up thedetails with that.
I hope you've noticed also thatI've been putting out some
shorter episodes calledBalancing the Christian Life
Quick Thoughts.
I've wanted to experiment witha shorter format for a little
while now, just to see what theysounded like and to see if they
made any sense.
Let me know if you like them,let me know if you don't like
them, and I appreciate yourfeedback on that.
(01:01:52):
So until next time, let's begood and do good.
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