July 16, 2025 • 40 mins
Ever wonder what happens when a Major League manager storms the field to argue a call? For Clint Hurdle, former Pittsburgh Pirates and Colorado Rockies manager, one such confrontation led to an unexpected humbling when an umpire refused to eject him, saying "I've had to watch this horrible baseball for four days. You're going to have to watch it too." It's just one of many candid insights Hurdle shares in this revealing conversation.
After spending decades in professional baseball, Hurdle now serves as special assistant to the Rockies' general manager, working with minor league affiliates and developing young talent. He calls it "probably one of the best jobs I've ever had—it just took me 45 years to get it." This role allows him to maintain family balance while sharing his baseball wisdom with the next generation.
Hurdle's coaching philosophy centers on making practice more challenging than games. Drawing from NBA coach Steve Kerr's experience guarding Michael Jordan in practice, Hurdle advises players to "trust the reps, work as hard as you can in practice so you can actually play in the game." He emphasizes connecting with players by finding common interests outside baseball—what he calls "coins"—creating relationships that transcend the sport.
On baseball's analytical evolution, Hurdle positions himself between traditions and innovations: "It's not old school versus new school, let's all be in school." This hybrid approach helped him navigate Pittsburgh's analytics-driven front office while maintaining his baseball instincts. He appreciates data's objectivity while acknowledging human development requires emotional intelligence.
Whether discussing coachability, parent relationships in high school sports, or small-market team challenges, Hurdle brings perspective shaped by almost five decades in baseball. His insights extend beyond strategy to the human elements that make baseball special. For coaches at any level looking to improve their approach, connect with players, or navigate baseball's changing landscape, Hurdle's wisdom is invaluable.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:01):
Have you ever wondered when a Major League
manager goes out to argue a call, are they trying to get thrown
out of the game?
Well, my next guest did justthat and the outcome is not what
you expected.
He played Major League Baseball.
He managed for the PittsburghPirates and the Colorado Rockies
(00:24):
.
Clint Hurdle next on BaseballCoaches Unplugged.
Speaker 2 (00:31):
Welcome to Baseball Coaches Unplugged with Coach Ken
Carpenter, presented by AthleteOne.
Baseball Coaches Unplugged is apodcast for baseball coaches.
With 27 years of high schoolbaseball coaching under his belt
, belt here to bring you theinside scoop on all things
baseball, from game winningstrategies and pitching secrets
to hitting drills and defensivedrills.
We're covering it all.
(00:51):
Whether you're a high schoolcoach, college coach or just a
baseball enthusiast, we'll diveinto the tactics and techniques
that make the difference on andoff the field.
Discover how to build a winningmentality.
Inspire your players and getthem truly bought into your game
philosophy Plus, get the latestinsights on recruiting,
coaching, leadership andcrafting a team culture that
(01:12):
champions productivity andsuccess.
Join Coach every week as hebreaks down the game and shares
incredible behind-the-scenesstories.
Your competitive edge startshere, so check out the show
weekly and hear from the bestcoaches in the game.
On Baseball Coaches Unplugged.
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Well, today I thought, sincethe All-Star Game is being
played tonight, I thought Ishould release the Clint Hurdle
(03:03):
interview that I have least theClint Hurdle interview that I
have and it gives you a greatinsight into what type of
baseball player manager and,more importantly, the person he
is, because he's such a greatperson and he's doing so much
for the game of baseball.
He at the time of the interviewhe was happily retired and now
(03:24):
he's back as he's the benchcoach for the Colorado Rockies
right now.
Please sit back and enjoy.
I know you'll love to hear whathe has to say.
Mr Hertel, thank you very muchfor taking the time to join me
on the podcast.
Speaker 3 (03:40):
Ken, you're welcome.
I'm glad we were able to pullthis together.
I'm not quite technologicallysavvy as most people, so it took
me a while to work through it.
Thanks for your patience.
Speaker 1 (03:50):
Well, I'm in the same boat, so no need to apologize.
Well, you retired aftermanaging the Pirates, and what
keeps you busy now in retirement?
Speaker 3 (04:02):
Well, I had two years of gainful retirement.
What I mean by that is thefirst time in my life I was
actually paid to not work.
That's how bad.
The Pirates didn't want me backmanaging that ball club.
They were willing to pay me tonot manage the ball club.
So I took two years off.
I had two children.
(04:23):
My wife and I, carl, have aMadison and Christian.
They were both still in highschool.
So I thought it'd be a goodtime for me to make an
adjustment, plug back into thefamily full time, which is
something that hadth 2019, andthen the rest of the world
retired with me on March 15th2020, when COVID hit.
(04:51):
So my first biggest task in myretirement was to take on the
challenge of homeschooling twoteenagers.
My wife I don't think she'sfailed in anything in her life
other than homeschooling.
She tried it one year when Iwas a coach in Texas.
We were in Arizona she tried tohomeschool the kids and it went
horribly for everybody.
(05:13):
And she told me back then ifthere's ever a homeschooling
opportunity again, I'm out, youwill have to do it.
And I'm thinking well, yeah,sure, I'll do it, because it's
never going to happen.
So, yeah, I'll take down thatresponsibility.
Well, lo and behold, it landedin my lap.
I got to homeschool twoteenagers, one in the morning
from about nine till 12 and theother one from one to three, and
(05:35):
we did that for three or fourmonths until school ran out.
And then I just found my way toplug back into the family,
whether it's going to mydaughter's dance recitals,
whether it was going to playfamily bingo up at the center
where we live on the Island,whether it was to watch my son,
uh, in his sport of passion crewrow the boat.
(05:56):
Um, be for my, be there for mywife.
We did some exercise classestogether.
We just spent time together.
Um, I actually enjoyed it fortwo years.
And then, I want to say, in 2021, in the winter, bill Schmidt,
who was the interim generalmanager of the Rockies, got the
full-time job and he asked me tocome back and help player
(06:17):
development.
I had spent all my career inplayer development.
Bill's background was inscouting.
He was our scouting directorfor over 20 years in the Rockies
.
He asked me to come back andhelp in the minor leagues and I
said well, that's funny.
You should ask that becausereally that's the only really
position or opportunity I'd haveany interest in back in
(06:38):
baseball and I was to work withkids, to work with young
managers, young coaches.
So I moved upon thatopportunity.
They gave me the old fancytitle of a special assistant to
the general manager and now I amdoing special assistant stuff
for the general manager.
I'm in Redding Pennsylvaniaright now watching our AA team,
the Hartford Grove Goats, play.
I spend a week with eachaffiliate.
(07:00):
I do it two weeks a month so Istill have two weeks at home and
I've just probably one of thebest jobs I ever had.
It just took me 45 years to getit, yeah there you go.
Speaker 1 (07:12):
Well, do you miss putting the uniform back on?
Speaker 3 (07:15):
You know there's, I don't, I only put the uniform on
.
It's about for one, one, twoday period, or actually almost
one day a year.
I manage one of the clubs forthe perfect game, all-american
classic, uh, the show, theshowcase, operation, perfect
game.
They run a big showcase, anational showcase that I just
(07:35):
I'm in street clothes for khakis, a golf shirt and a hat or a
visor, but I do put on a uniformto manage one of the teams it's
usually the East team.
I don't miss it where it gnawsat me, where it bites on me.
And I felt in my role that onceI got outside the aspect of
(07:56):
managing or coaching that it wasmuch more unassuming to show up
at a facility or stand on abatting cage in khakis and a
golf shirt or Hawaiian shirt,rather than me in uniform.
And just sometimes it's not somuch that I'm worried, but just
some people have a hard timeseeing you as the person and
they see you as a title.
Well, he managed, he did this.
(08:18):
What's he doing here?
Oh, he's going to.
He's here to fix all thesethings.
I want to come up and just showup and be present, to use my
eyes and ears, watch what goeson, be a voice of reason if need
be, share some information ifasked.
But the uniform thing I thoughtit might be good separation for
me to get away from that, so itdoesn't.
(08:39):
I've got a bunch of themhanging in the closet back at
home so if I ever need one I cango get one.
Speaker 1 (08:45):
There you go.
Well, I grew up about an houror so from Pittsburgh in eastern
Ohio and I can recall going tobecause that was close for me.
I was an Indians fan Now it'sthe Guardians but if I wanted to
go to a major league game, thatwas the quickest way to go to a
(09:05):
game is just drive up toPittsburgh and catch a game.
Back in the early 80s I guessyou could say so.
It was always fun just gettingup there to see the park isn't
like it is now.
It was the old stadium, butwhat a great park they have
there in Pittsburgh now.
Speaker 3 (09:27):
It is a beautiful ballpark.
Pnc Field is magnificent whenthe sun sets and you get the sun
reflection or the sunsetreflections off those buildings
across the rivers.
It's so well put together.
It's very intimate.
Through the years 2013 through2015,.
It was packed up every homegame.
We were filling it up aroundthen then for about two and a
(09:47):
half million people.
I think that's capacity thatall it can hold, um, would you?
I could probably hold more,cause it's if you do 80, 81
times 38, you're going to getmore than that.
But we were packing it and itwas so much fun.
It was so much fun for the thefans-suffering fans fan base
(10:08):
there.
But there's a lot of goodbaseball in that Rust Belt that
you live on, whether it'sCleveland, cincinnati, detroit.
You know a lot of teamsPittsburgh's playing.
There's a lot of teams on theRust Belt.
I kind of grew up Detroit whenI grew up outside of Detroit.
That's what we called it kindof grew up Detroit when I grew
up outside of Detroit.
That's what we called it, and Ithink that's one of the things
that added to the lure of thefan base for Pittsburgh.
(10:31):
You've got people coming fromWest Virginia.
You've got people coming fromOhio.
You've got people coming fromEastern PA, which is much
different than Western PA, butit was a fun fan base.
It was a beautiful ballpark andwe gave it everything.
We had trying to get that sixthWorld Series title and we
weren't able to do that, but wegot back into some playoff
baseball so we were able torebond the city with the
(10:52):
baseball team and that was oneof my goals coming in.
Speaker 1 (10:55):
Well, I've wanted to you know, since a lot of my
listeners are high school slashcollege coaches and players and
parents of those areas, howimportant is it to be coachable?
Speaker 3 (11:12):
I think it's one of the most important traits we can
have as we walk through life.
And you know, I won't say fromsix to 66, because six it's hard
to coach anybody.
That's six, and I don't meanthat in a bad way.
They're six.
You know they're distractedeasily and they're kids, they
need to be six and my son wasprobably the perfect example.
(11:32):
When I was fired by Colorado in09, my son started t-ball at
the age of four and I canremember just going out watching
practices of four-year--oldtrying to play tee ball.
It was like herding cats.
So I would continue toencourage the coaches.
But I'm not so sure how much ofa teacher you need to be right
now.
But I think a storyteller and acommunicator is going to be
(11:54):
your best two strengths, becauseit's to keep the kids engaged.
Now, as kids get older and theystart playing you know in maybe
a little bit more of ameaningful way in their teenage
years.
You know in maybe a little bitmore of a meaningful way in
their teenage years.
Even some kids now are playingcompetitive baseball at the age
of you know 8 to 10.
But coachability is critical.
I think we all should find aplace to want to be a lifelong
(12:18):
learner.
You know I'm at the age of 66right now and I'm still looking
for ways to learn.
There's different blogs I read.
There's different podcasts Ilisten to.
There's different books I'mreading.
I continually want to stretchand grow and get outside my
comfort zone.
I've learned a lot beingoutside the game now for the
past four years and not wearinga uniform and not being in the
(12:38):
vacuum every day and in thelimelight.
But now, with more opportunity,we're working with kids in
amateur ball and actuallyworking with our young players.
Here, coachability is criticaland I think one of the best
tools I've learned along the wayfor young players is if I think
I'm going to coach somebody andwhether it's a small group that
(13:00):
I'm talking with or it's aone-on-one opportunity I have
with a young player.
I let know right up front okay,we're gonna have a little
conversation.
The conversations can't be longbecause the younger the kids is
the time span.
You know the attention span isjust short, but I would say,
when I'm done sharing what Ithink is important for you today
(13:21):
, I want you to give me one ortwo things you heard me say
because, ken, unfortunately somany times in my career.
I've I thought I've shared thisbrilliant message, this
critical technique, a certainmechanic that I've kind of
helped put together and we'regoing to deploy today with our
hitters or our pitchers.
(13:42):
And these kids are noddingtheir head, shaking their head
yeah, yeah, yeah, they're going.
I can't wait for this old manto shut up.
That's what they're saying tothemselves.
And then when they get done,they hear where I sat.
And then three days later Ihave three visits.
So one of the tools that I usewith young people is that when I
share, I try and keep it short.
I try and be clear, clean,accurate with my delivery get it
(14:05):
in, get it out.
I have a friend who calls it bebrief and be bright and then
ask them back what they heard,because they might not have
heard the six points that I had.
They might have heard two ofthem, which is a win If they
heard one of them.
It's a win To expect them toremember all six.
I actually try and work inthrees, no more than three
things that I try and teach anychild, any youngster, any older
(14:27):
player, and then I ask them atthe end what did you hear me say
?
If they got nothing, I go.
Okay, we're going to revisit itOnce they have to do that again
.
They're going to listen muchbetter the next time because
they know the old man ain'tgoing to let him go until I give
him something back.
So the importance ofcoachability critical.
Speaker 1 (14:46):
If you were a high school player today with the
talent you had, what would youtell yourself to get the most
out of your ability?
What would you tell?
Speaker 3 (14:55):
yourself to get the most out of your ability.
It would be trust the reps,work as hard as you can in
practice so you can actuallyplay in the game.
Most of us have done itbackwards.
Practice is easier than thegame and I learned this from
Steve Kerr, the head coach withthe Warriors now.
He talked about one of the mostchallenging parts of his career
(15:16):
was their team wasn't playingwell and Phil Jackson came up
with a new scheme he was goingto scrimmage.
They were going to scrimmage,you know, four days a week,
which in the NBA you doscrimmage, but it's short
incremental bursts and you stopFootball.
You know you have pad dayHockey.
They have skate arounds.
(15:38):
Baseball was the one sport thatwas the last one to the table
about trying to regauge gamespeed in practice opportunities.
You know it was old coaches.
Throw BP 50 miles an hour, tryand throw it at the sweet spot.
You hit them nice little fungoswhere all their good hops,
nothing's done at game speed andpractice for baseball.
Many years when I played soSteve Kerr said Phil Jackson
(15:58):
told me that this week I wasgoing to cover Michael.
I was going to cover MichaelJordan, he said I wanted to
throw up in my mouth I don'tthink he said that, but I know
he had to feel it Um, and hesaid, after going through that
process for a while, come gametime, no matter who I got to
play against or had to cover, itwas easier.
The games became easy becausepractice was so hard.
(16:21):
So the one thing I would tellmyself at Young Club Hurdle
would be kid, find a way to makepractice harder.
So the and trust the reps onceyou get in the game, because so
many times these kids do workhard at practice, but when they
get in the game it's a differentmindset.
The game becomes way tooimportant more than the practice
and they lose focus of whatthey were doing throughout the
(16:42):
week.
They were creating anopportunity to be successful in
the game.
So trust your reps and makepractice harder.
Speaker 1 (16:57):
I had players toward uh, uh, I want to say back in
2016,.
We were putting together aprogram for the handout for the,
for the parents and the peoplethat came to the game, and I I
just a simple assignment was.
You know, I had the playersfill out and ask in the
questions, and one of thequestions was what's your
favorite MLB team?
And I was astonished that I hadthree players on my high school
(17:17):
team.
They were like I don't watchhigh school, I don't watch major
league baseball, I don't have afavorite team, and you know, I
know it's important that youhave to get out and play the
game, but I think there's a lotcan be taken away from just
sitting down and watching howthe best in the world do it.
And you know, what are yourthoughts on that?
Speaker 3 (17:40):
Well, no, I don't disagree.
But I got to remind myself, ken, that these kids aren't me and
the generation of kids.
Every generation has complainedabout the generation that's
coming up behind them.
It's just because it's what wedo and I can't expect kids to
(18:00):
have the same interest that Idid.
I mean, I collected baseballcards.
Ask how many of your playerscollect baseball cards.
Nowadays, old men and old grownpeople collect baseball cards
more than kids.
Now it's become a collectible,a hobby.
There's money tied to it, butin the bad cards, the cards like
if I got a card of me right now, my card would be on my spokes
(18:22):
on my bicycle.
I'd take that clothespin andput the baseball card on there
to make my bike sound like ithad a motor.
I understand what you're sayingwith watching games.
I think it's good opportunitiesfor them to watch other people
play the game and they may findsomething they're attracted to,
a style of play, an energy ofplay.
They'll also see things thatthey're not attracted to.
(18:42):
Well, that kid's got no energyor that team's got no energy,
that team doesn't hustle, thatteam doesn't run balls out.
So I do believe there's animportant factor of it.
I wouldn't say it's a dealbreaker if they don't have a
favorite team.
Maybe they have a favorite teamin another sport I don't know
if you ask them baseballspecifically but maybe they have
a favorite team, but it's adifferent sport.
(19:04):
Maybe that's an avenue to go.
I mean, I grew up a DetroitTiger fan.
I was a fan of every Detroitteam.
I still am to this day.
Al Kaline was my guy.
I still am to this day.
Al Kaline was my guy.
The kids today, they have somany distractions and it's not
their fault.
They have those distractions.
I think what we can help alongthe way with is eliminating some
distractions for them and trulyjust trying to help them find.
(19:28):
If you're playing baseball, whydo you play it?
Do you love the game?
Is it something that yourparents want you to do to get
you out of the house?
I mean, what's the why behindyour playing?
And then try and work with themon their.
Why Do you love the game?
Have you thought aboutpracticing a little more?
Did you ever think aboutplaying summer ball or a travel
ball?
(19:48):
Or do you ever watch a game onTV, then go there?
Or how about the junior collegedown the street?
Have you ever watched them play?
Speaker 1 (20:01):
Just different questions different ways to try
and plug them into somethingthat they may have a love for.
Yeah, definitely I you know, as, as a manager, what was your
way of connecting with, with theyounger players that were
either with the Pirates or theRockies, or even in your
experience with minor leagues?
Speaker 3 (20:19):
It's fortunate.
Well, I've got a son who's 19,first year in college.
I do have a young adultdaughter, maddie's 21.
Maddie was born with a birthdefect.
She has special needs, so I'vehad to learn to communicate in a
special needs community as well.
And you know, most of the timesall parents go through the
situation where they have kidsat home and if you don't give a
kid a good answer to a question,their next question is why and
(20:43):
why and why you learn to give agood answer.
Well, even within Maddie at theage of 21 now, and in her group
and her community, if you don'tgive a good answer, you get a
lot of why.
So it's helped me, think it'shelped me process my answer
before I give it.
But I've also been able to findout.
I have an older daughter,ashley, that's 38, that has
helped me with my cues.
(21:03):
I try and find coins with theseyoung kids, ken, and what I mean
by coin is the hobby.
What do they like to do whenthey're not playing ball?
It may be a musician, it may bea musician, it may be.
They like dogs, some kids liketo hunt, some kids like to fish,
some girls like dance, theylike music, whatever it may be.
I look for those opportunities.
Connect with them on somethingoutside of the sport we're
(21:24):
connected to.
So every time they see mewalking to them they think, oh
God, here comes coach, it'sgoing to be something about
baseball, we're going to talkabout baseball.
I hope that I can develop arelationship with him where they
see me walking through themthey go oh my gosh, I wonder
what he's going to ask me today.
You know he's always got adifferent topic that we talk
about, or then you find a coupletopics they really like to talk
about.
Then all you usually have to do, ken, you ask them one question
(21:45):
and they take it and run withit and they, they do most of the
talking, which is the best wayto develop that relationship.
I try and stay young, I try andstay current, but I don't want
to be fake about it either.
There's some things that kidsare interested in today that I
have no interest in.
I've never been a gamer.
You know my game was pong.
I played pinball.
I'm not a gamer, and a lot ofthese kids play game, whether
(22:10):
it's Madden, I get it but that,but I have no experience in it
either.
So I want to make sure I'mauthentic and I'm real in the
conversation of what we'retalking about.
Speaker 1 (22:20):
That makes total sense.
And you know, a challenge thata lot of high school coaches are
facing nowadays is you, theirapproach to not only their
players but the parents thatthey're having to to work with.
And if you were given theassignment of coaching a high
school baseball team, how do you, how would you go about getting
(22:45):
the players to buy in, whichthat would probably be the
easier part, but also to get theparents to buy in, even if it's
the parent who, whose kid, who,isn't getting a lot of playing
time?
Speaker 3 (22:58):
No, that that is probably one of your biggest
areas where you can become moreimpactful or less impactful.
Uh, the parent buy-in.
And you know the parents.
They're not going to go away,they're, they're connected to
their kids.
They're, more often than not,going to have an inflated
(23:18):
evaluation of the talent levelthat their child has because
they're parents.
Some of them don't, but a lotof them do.
I think the best thing I woulddo is try and have maybe what
they used to call those firesidechat.
I mean, just get the parentstogether and, okay, look here.
Here.
Here's my vision on this year.
(23:38):
Here's the things I feel thatare important.
Here's where I think you canhelp.
Here's where I think we need tobe able to work through and not
build walls but build bridges.
You're going to want to watchyour kid play.
Everybody wants their kid toplay.
Only nine can play at a time.
You know, and I'd share.
I'm going to try and have acertain five-man rotation.
(24:00):
We're going to work kids out ofthe bullpen.
I'm going to try and geteverybody involved and engaged,
because nobody wants to justpractice and not play.
However, nine will start thegame.
How we work from there?
We'll have conversationsthroughout the year where I see
your son or your daughter, wherethey fit into the program,
because I want to be authenticand I want to be real with you.
(24:21):
I don't want to try and trickyou and I know parents these
days they almost feel likethey're a general manager
because of the financialinvestment involved in sports.
You know I'm paying this andI'm paying that, and Johnny
needs this or Joey needs that.
Well, I do think honestcommunication is best.
And then I do think there'stimes you got to understand that
(24:42):
you may not like the way it isright now, or your son might not
, but don't be a self-fulfillingprophet.
Make sure that you encouragehim when he's not playing.
I could use your help thenbecause there's going to be an
opportunity where he's going toget a chance or she's going to
get a chance, and if they've notworked, if they've not prepared
, that chance may be fleeting,but if they have and they can
(25:04):
move upon it.
You know, one of the things Ishare with early groups, young
groups right now is I revisitthe fact that Tom Brady wasn't
starting quarterback atUniversity of Michigan Bob
Greasy's kid, brian Greasy, was.
I mean, there's all kinds ofpeople that you share with the
parents Look, this guy didn'tstart, but he was prepared and
ready when an opportunity camealong.
(25:26):
High school's short, it's threeyears.
Everybody wants to play,especially if they're a senior
sometimes, and life's not fair,right, but the thing that is
fair about life is it's unfairfor everybody.
You know, and if you're abetter baseball player, you're
going to play more and we wantto make sure.
I mean I'm going to doeverything I can to help your
son be the best player they canbe.
(25:46):
That's my promise to you.
I need your help along the wayif you're willing to give that.
Speaker 1 (25:54):
That's probably where I'd start.
Well, being someone that youknow, the amount of time that
you've been around baseball, areyou more of an old school type
of coach or do you, you know,grow with the analytics?
How was your approach to itwith?
Speaker 3 (26:13):
the analytics.
How was your approach to it?
Well, no, I mean old school.
Definitely, the game that Igrew up with, the game that I
fell in love with, isn't beingplayed right now, but that's
okay.
That doesn't mean it's a badthing.
The game started to pivot indifferent directions, probably
my last five years in Pittsburgh.
(26:34):
The first pivot was after I gotfired in Colorado in 2009, and
I went to work for the MLBNetwork the second half of the
season.
I got to go back and have thesepre-show meetings and all these
kids and interns were workingand grabbing statistics and
these new group of statisticscalled analytics, and I started
digging into some of that then,just understanding where I
(26:55):
thought the game was headed.
And not only was it headedthere, it's landed there and
it's set up tense there now.
But I know the game's going togo on with or without me.
If I want to be a part of thegame, it goes back to being
coachable.
I needed to be coachable, Ineeded to learn new things and I
was fortunate that when I gotwith a group in Pittsburgh, neil
(27:17):
Huntington and Dan Fox wereboth analytically driven but
also had some old school values.
I was more old school drivenwith some analytical values that
I thought made sense.
So we became a hybrid modeltogether.
Because by saying that I share,I spoke.
So we became a hybrid modeltogether Because, by saying that
(27:38):
I share, I spoke at the I-70coaches clinic last year.
I spoke at the Colorado dugoutcoaches convention and I
actually have a presentation.
It's called it's not old schoolversus new school, let's all be
in school and I shared theimportance of some old school
values and some some of theimportance of the new school,
tech and the way they're lookingat things and find.
(27:58):
Find that hybrid model thatfits and everybody can work with
and try and learn from oneanother.
It goes back to being a hittingcoach and then having young
players that became thesehitting gurus.
They all have their own hittingcoach in the off season.
I felt I was best served if Ibuilt a relationship, tried to
build a bridge with theirhitting guru rather than build a
wall.
We both want the same resultfor the player.
(28:21):
We may have different thoughtsand ideas how we're going to
help him get there, but it can'tbe clandestine and it can't be
leveraged and it can't beopportunistic and it can't be
selfish.
So right now where the game is.
I've learned a lot in the lastfive years.
Everything that's new doesn'tmean it's good.
(28:42):
It's been life.
Life has gone that way for along time.
There are certain things Ithink that are new, that I
really don't have a lot of timefor.
There are some things that arenew that I go, wow, I wish I
would have had that earlier.
So I'm learning as I go along.
There's value in some of theanalytics, there's a science to
it which is hard to argue.
And one thing about numbers isnumbers come without emotions
(29:05):
and humans have emotions andhumans can be messy, and so
there is a side of the numbersthat I kind of lean into because
they're unemotional.
I as a coach can have recencybias.
I might like one player morethan the other.
You know we can say we need tolike them all the same.
Yeah, we need to Do you.
I don't know, it was hard for meto like every player the same,
but I tried.
(29:25):
And then the players you like alittle bit more than the other
players, you know well, yeah, hehad a pretty good day when in
reality, he probably had an okayday the kid that I didn't maybe
like as much if he had an okayday, I probably thought, oh, he
was below average.
It's called recency bias.
You know, what happened latelyis what you hold on to, so I'm
(29:46):
still learning.
I'd like to think I'm in schooland I'm not so much old school
that I can't appreciate newschool.
Speaker 1 (29:53):
Well for the MLB fan that's out there.
Should Major League Baseballmake changes to give the small
market teams an even playingfield, because it's tough to
compete with the Dodgers and theYankees.
Speaker 3 (30:12):
Yeah, and neither one's won a World Series.
In how many years?
The Dodgers won the 2020 WorldSeries?
Covid year, it's not the samebut they won a World Series.
The Yankees haven't been therein a long time.
There's arguments on both sidesof this fence.
Look at what the job TampaBay's done with the small market
.
Year after year after year,milwaukee's come up and done a
(30:34):
pretty nice job.
There's always a pop-up team ortwo.
Cleveland continues to beimpressive in that small market
Until they do it.
You've got to figure it out.
I mean, the NBA has a.
You know they've got adifferent level.
You know everybody talks abouta ceiling.
I thought maybe raising thefloor, where every team had to
(30:58):
spend at least the same amountof money and make it $100
million to raise the floorrather than have a ceiling.
But they haven't done it.
And I don't know if the ownerskeep paying top dollar for free
agent players.
So why would you think that'sgoing to go away?
There's just too many oxymorons.
I mean, there's too manyconflicting things that go on.
(31:19):
People say this, but then theydo that.
So until we can get everybodyon the same page, it makes it
hard for small market teams.
You look at what they did inFlorida.
What they're doing in Floridanow is hard.
Pittsburgh, it's been hard fora few years.
We Florida.
What they're doing in Floridanow is hard.
Pittsburgh it's been hard for afew years.
We had a nice run for a time,but the teams of tennis what's
going on in Oakland has beenhard.
You'd like to think there's abetter way, but we haven't
(31:42):
seemed to come up with one yet.
Speaker 1 (31:43):
Well, I asked this question of every guest that I
have on the podcast, do you?
Speaker 3 (31:50):
hate losing or love winning?
It's a great question.
Um now, yeah, I mean hands of aflame, and if I had to give you
one answer, which is prettyunfair, uh, I would say I love
winning.
However, the love of winning,the love of winning.
(32:12):
Sometimes so many things getsacrificed along the way Health,
family, truthfully, lessonslearned, because I would tell my
players there's winning andthere's learning.
You only lose when you don'tlearn anything.
We could have a bad game, butif we came up with a couple
nuggets on things that we canlearn to do better, that's not
(32:34):
losing.
Pain brings immediate attentionto a specific area, and losing
usually does that.
It brings immediate attentionto a specific area.
But I think there's got to be acalmness to understanding why
you lost, and what I've alwaystried to share with my players,
coaches and teams is, if youmeet the demands of the game as
(32:57):
they present themselves, you putyourself in a better position
to win the game.
If you do not meet the demandsof the game and you know what I
mean by demands of the gamerunner at third less than two
outs.
Runner at second no outs firstpitch strikes, two out walks,
all the little things that cometogether that you know, leaving
runners on base and not scoringthem.
One of the things I'll jumpbackwards just tell you.
(33:20):
One of the things I don'tappreciate about analytics is
that they've lessened it,cheapened the value of a run
batted in.
But I'll tell you this there's15 major league games tonight,
30 teams and half the managersthat lose.
Every one of them will bring upin his post-game conference we
had opportunities to score andwe did.
(33:41):
The run batted in is a valuablenumber.
It always has been, it alwayswill be in my mind.
And the losing part of it youdon't meet the demands of the
game.
When you continually don't meetthose demands, you put yourself
in a bad position to win.
So long answer, but I do lovewinning.
Speaker 1 (34:01):
Yeah Well, as a player who was the best pitcher
that you faced.
Speaker 3 (34:08):
Oh my gosh, I faced so many Cy Young Award winners.
Ron Guidry in 78 may have beenthe best pitcher.
I faced so many Cy Young awardwinners.
Ron Guidry in 78 may have beenthe best pitcher I faced.
I faced Nolan Ryan multipletimes.
He was a really good pitcher.
Jim Palmer, Cy Young and thenthe one guy that owned me
(34:31):
probably a lot of people won'trecognize the name but Shane
Raleigh.
I think I had one hit in about40 lifetime at bats off Shane
Raleigh.
He was a left-handed pitcher, astarter, a reliever, American
League, National League, Someguys you just don't hit.
He was one of the guys I justdidn't hit, but then there were
some guys that I hit pretty well.
So go figure.
Speaker 1 (34:53):
Yeah Well, to finish up.
Speaker 3 (34:58):
So go figure, yeah Well, to finish up what is your
best story as a player ormanager?
Well, I'll give you a funny oneand I'll leave the umpire's
name out of it, but I think Ialways get drawn to this one
because, you know, some peoplewould ask me well, as a manager,
did you ever get thrown out onpurpose?
Did you ever go out there andtry and stir up your team or
(35:20):
make a stand or do this?
And I'll say, you know, yes,there were times when maybe I
wanted to spark some energy orlight a fuse.
You know the male testosteronething or the ego gets involved.
We weren't playing well.
We'd had the same crew for fourgames.
It was a four-game series.
The last of the four days,every game we got thrown a
(35:42):
beating.
We didn't pitch it, we didn'thit it, we couldn't catch it.
The fourth game.
I've had enough, I've seenenough and I run out there.
In about the third inning Istart letting one guy have it
and it's a veteran umpire.
He's been around the block,We've known each other for a
long time.
He looked at me and he goesokay, let me stop you right
(36:05):
there, cause you can saywhatever you want to say.
You can call me any name youwant, I'm not throwing you out.
I've had to watch this horriblebaseball for four days.
You're going to have to watchit for four days too.
You're going to watch all nightin it.
Now go say what you want.
I'm tired of watching.
You guys are horrible.
And he went into.
He got into me.
You can't pitch it, you can'tthrow it.
You're going to come out hereand yell at me.
Go ahead.
I went back to my dugout justbeen asking my bench coach.
(36:27):
He goes.
What happened?
I thought you were going to getthrown out.
I go dude.
He declawed.
He took the claws right off me.
He just said we're so bad thathe wasn't going to throw me out.
He wanted me to watch it.
Amazing.
Speaker 1 (36:38):
That's great.
I, I, um, my only interactionI've ever had with a major
league umpire that that actuallyhad a disagreement with was
Larry Barnett, and uh, heactually uh, they named a park
at it after him, near where Ilive and it's a league team that
(36:59):
we played.
They played their games thereand he was very particular about
his field and uh, he would comethere and he would just yell at
you if you he didn't like theway you took infield or whatever
, and I just was not having agreat day.
And he started, started in onme and then he come down to the
(37:21):
fence and and I made a commentabout the 75 world series where
he the questionable call that hemade and with Pete Rose and
everything, and I just boy he, Iwas like he was not happy and I
was like that's the closestI'll ever come to being on a
major league field arguing withan umpire.
Speaker 3 (37:41):
How about it.
Hey, before we go, though, I'mgoing to make one comment,
because I'm going to have to runhere, and this is a parting
shot.
That's a cheap shot, but you'veonly got one good looking
helmet in that photo behind youand that's that Michigan
Wolverine helmet.
Speaker 1 (37:56):
Go, good looking helmet and that photo behind you
, and that's that MichiganWolverine helmet Go blue, oh my
God.
Speaker 3 (38:02):
There we go.
Well, I'm hoping.
Speaker 1 (38:03):
You're a Buckeye fan?
Uh yeah, I graduated from Ohiostate, so yeah, we're hoping
things will change this year.
Speaker 3 (38:11):
Oh, it's been a fun ride.
Speaker 1 (38:14):
Yes, Well, everybody, it's Clint hurdle, fun ride.
Yes, well, everybody, it'sClint Hurdle and Coach.
I can't thank you enough fortaking the time to do this with
me and you know I wish you thebest.
And if you could I readsomething where you kind of put
out like a newsletter where youhave 7,000 subscribers.
Speaker 3 (38:35):
Yeah, ken, I have a daily email.
I actually have two dailyemails I send out.
One's a devotional and they'refrom faith-based pastors or
priests sometimes just regularguys, tony Dungey faith-based
encouragement.
And then I have a leadershipencouragement, a coaching
encouragement, one that I putout.
(38:55):
They're both daily.
They go six days a week.
I'm like Truett Cathay I takeSundays off.
There's no emails on Sundays, aday of rest.
But all you got to do is typeinto your browser clinthurdlecom
Clinthurdlecom.
It'll take you to the smallwebsite.
It's easy to.
All you got to do is type inyour email address and then hit
(39:15):
one of the hit devotional or hitencouragement, or hit the
button for both, and you'llstart receiving them the next
day.
But it's clinturdlecom.
Over 7,000 people havesubscribed.
I've been doing it since 09,going to my 15th year, and just
a host of different authors andpeople that encourage me and
people I learned from.
Speaker 1 (39:33):
Well, like I said, thanks again, I really do
appreciate it and you know Ihope you really enjoy your
summer and, whatever you do,keep staying around baseball,
because you're too good to notbe around the game of baseball.
Speaker 3 (39:50):
Well, I appreciate it , Ken.
I'm glad we got to pull thistogether.
Thank you, sir.
Speaker 1 (39:54):
Special thanks to Colorado Rockies bench coach
Clint Hurdle for joiningBaseball Coaches Unplugged.
Today's episode is powered bythe Netting Professionals,
improving programs one facilityat a time.
If you want your field lookingits best, you need to contact
them today at 844-620-2707, orvisit them online at
(40:16):
wwwnettingproscom.
As always, I'm your host CoachKen Carpenter.
Please be sure to join us everyWednesday for a new episode
with some of the best coachesfrom across the country.
Take care, thank you.
Have you ever wondered when a Major League
manager goes out to argue a call, are they trying to get thrown
out of the game?
Well, my next guest did justthat and the outcome is not what
you expected.
He played Major League Baseball.
He managed for the PittsburghPirates and the Colorado Rockies
(00:24):
.
Clint Hurdle next on BaseballCoaches Unplugged.
Speaker 2 (00:31):
Welcome to Baseball Coaches Unplugged with Coach Ken
Carpenter, presented by AthleteOne.
Baseball Coaches Unplugged is apodcast for baseball coaches.
With 27 years of high schoolbaseball coaching under his belt
, belt here to bring you theinside scoop on all things
baseball, from game winningstrategies and pitching secrets
to hitting drills and defensivedrills.
We're covering it all.
(00:51):
Whether you're a high schoolcoach, college coach or just a
baseball enthusiast, we'll diveinto the tactics and techniques
that make the difference on andoff the field.
Discover how to build a winningmentality.
Inspire your players and getthem truly bought into your game
philosophy Plus, get the latestinsights on recruiting,
coaching, leadership andcrafting a team culture that
(01:12):
champions productivity andsuccess.
Join Coach every week as hebreaks down the game and shares
incredible behind-the-scenesstories.
Your competitive edge startshere, so check out the show
weekly and hear from the bestcoaches in the game.
On Baseball Coaches Unplugged.
Speaker 1 (01:30):
This episode of Baseball Coaches Unplugged is
powered by the nettingprofessionals, improving
programs one facility at a time.
The netting pros specialize inthe design, fabrication and
installation of custom nettingFor baseball and softball.
This includes backstops,batting cages, bp turtle screens
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The netting pros also work withfootball, soccer, lacrosse,
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Contact them today at844-620-2707.
That's 844-620-2707.
And you can visit them onlineat wwwnettingproscom.
(02:16):
Check out Netting Pros on X,instagram, facebook and LinkedIn
for all their latest productsand projects.
Hey, if you enjoyed today's show, please be sure and share it
with a friend.
Tell them about BaseballCoaches Unplugged.
We'd love the support and don'tforget to hit that subscribe
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(02:36):
If you get a chance, leave us areview.
You can follow the BaseballCoaches Unplugged on social
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Facebook.
Well, today I thought, sincethe All-Star Game is being
played tonight, I thought Ishould release the Clint Hurdle
(03:03):
interview that I have least theClint Hurdle interview that I
have and it gives you a greatinsight into what type of
baseball player manager and,more importantly, the person he
is, because he's such a greatperson and he's doing so much
for the game of baseball.
He at the time of the interviewhe was happily retired and now
(03:24):
he's back as he's the benchcoach for the Colorado Rockies
right now.
Please sit back and enjoy.
I know you'll love to hear whathe has to say.
Mr Hertel, thank you very muchfor taking the time to join me
on the podcast.
Speaker 3 (03:40):
Ken, you're welcome.
I'm glad we were able to pullthis together.
I'm not quite technologicallysavvy as most people, so it took
me a while to work through it.
Thanks for your patience.
Speaker 1 (03:50):
Well, I'm in the same boat, so no need to apologize.
Well, you retired aftermanaging the Pirates, and what
keeps you busy now in retirement?
Speaker 3 (04:02):
Well, I had two years of gainful retirement.
What I mean by that is thefirst time in my life I was
actually paid to not work.
That's how bad.
The Pirates didn't want me backmanaging that ball club.
They were willing to pay me tonot manage the ball club.
So I took two years off.
I had two children.
(04:23):
My wife and I, carl, have aMadison and Christian.
They were both still in highschool.
So I thought it'd be a goodtime for me to make an
adjustment, plug back into thefamily full time, which is
something that hadth 2019, andthen the rest of the world
retired with me on March 15th2020, when COVID hit.
(04:51):
So my first biggest task in myretirement was to take on the
challenge of homeschooling twoteenagers.
My wife I don't think she'sfailed in anything in her life
other than homeschooling.
She tried it one year when Iwas a coach in Texas.
We were in Arizona she tried tohomeschool the kids and it went
horribly for everybody.
(05:13):
And she told me back then ifthere's ever a homeschooling
opportunity again, I'm out, youwill have to do it.
And I'm thinking well, yeah,sure, I'll do it, because it's
never going to happen.
So, yeah, I'll take down thatresponsibility.
Well, lo and behold, it landedin my lap.
I got to homeschool twoteenagers, one in the morning
from about nine till 12 and theother one from one to three, and
(05:35):
we did that for three or fourmonths until school ran out.
And then I just found my way toplug back into the family,
whether it's going to mydaughter's dance recitals,
whether it was going to playfamily bingo up at the center
where we live on the Island,whether it was to watch my son,
uh, in his sport of passion crewrow the boat.
(05:56):
Um, be for my, be there for mywife.
We did some exercise classestogether.
We just spent time together.
Um, I actually enjoyed it fortwo years.
And then, I want to say, in 2021, in the winter, bill Schmidt,
who was the interim generalmanager of the Rockies, got the
full-time job and he asked me tocome back and help player
(06:17):
development.
I had spent all my career inplayer development.
Bill's background was inscouting.
He was our scouting directorfor over 20 years in the Rockies
.
He asked me to come back andhelp in the minor leagues and I
said well, that's funny.
You should ask that becausereally that's the only really
position or opportunity I'd haveany interest in back in
(06:38):
baseball and I was to work withkids, to work with young
managers, young coaches.
So I moved upon thatopportunity.
They gave me the old fancytitle of a special assistant to
the general manager and now I amdoing special assistant stuff
for the general manager.
I'm in Redding Pennsylvaniaright now watching our AA team,
the Hartford Grove Goats, play.
I spend a week with eachaffiliate.
(07:00):
I do it two weeks a month so Istill have two weeks at home and
I've just probably one of thebest jobs I ever had.
It just took me 45 years to getit, yeah there you go.
Speaker 1 (07:12):
Well, do you miss putting the uniform back on?
Speaker 3 (07:15):
You know there's, I don't, I only put the uniform on
.
It's about for one, one, twoday period, or actually almost
one day a year.
I manage one of the clubs forthe perfect game, all-american
classic, uh, the show, theshowcase, operation, perfect
game.
They run a big showcase, anational showcase that I just
(07:35):
I'm in street clothes for khakis, a golf shirt and a hat or a
visor, but I do put on a uniformto manage one of the teams it's
usually the East team.
I don't miss it where it gnawsat me, where it bites on me.
And I felt in my role that onceI got outside the aspect of
(07:56):
managing or coaching that it wasmuch more unassuming to show up
at a facility or stand on abatting cage in khakis and a
golf shirt or Hawaiian shirt,rather than me in uniform.
And just sometimes it's not somuch that I'm worried, but just
some people have a hard timeseeing you as the person and
they see you as a title.
Well, he managed, he did this.
(08:18):
What's he doing here?
Oh, he's going to.
He's here to fix all thesethings.
I want to come up and just showup and be present, to use my
eyes and ears, watch what goeson, be a voice of reason if need
be, share some information ifasked.
But the uniform thing I thoughtit might be good separation for
me to get away from that, so itdoesn't.
(08:39):
I've got a bunch of themhanging in the closet back at
home so if I ever need one I cango get one.
Speaker 1 (08:45):
There you go.
Well, I grew up about an houror so from Pittsburgh in eastern
Ohio and I can recall going tobecause that was close for me.
I was an Indians fan Now it'sthe Guardians but if I wanted to
go to a major league game, thatwas the quickest way to go to a
(09:05):
game is just drive up toPittsburgh and catch a game.
Back in the early 80s I guessyou could say so.
It was always fun just gettingup there to see the park isn't
like it is now.
It was the old stadium, butwhat a great park they have
there in Pittsburgh now.
Speaker 3 (09:27):
It is a beautiful ballpark.
Pnc Field is magnificent whenthe sun sets and you get the sun
reflection or the sunsetreflections off those buildings
across the rivers.
It's so well put together.
It's very intimate.
Through the years 2013 through2015,.
It was packed up every homegame.
We were filling it up aroundthen then for about two and a
(09:47):
half million people.
I think that's capacity thatall it can hold, um, would you?
I could probably hold more,cause it's if you do 80, 81
times 38, you're going to getmore than that.
But we were packing it and itwas so much fun.
It was so much fun for the thefans-suffering fans fan base
(10:08):
there.
But there's a lot of goodbaseball in that Rust Belt that
you live on, whether it'sCleveland, cincinnati, detroit.
You know a lot of teamsPittsburgh's playing.
There's a lot of teams on theRust Belt.
I kind of grew up Detroit whenI grew up outside of Detroit.
That's what we called it kindof grew up Detroit when I grew
up outside of Detroit.
That's what we called it, and Ithink that's one of the things
that added to the lure of thefan base for Pittsburgh.
(10:31):
You've got people coming fromWest Virginia.
You've got people coming fromOhio.
You've got people coming fromEastern PA, which is much
different than Western PA, butit was a fun fan base.
It was a beautiful ballpark andwe gave it everything.
We had trying to get that sixthWorld Series title and we
weren't able to do that, but wegot back into some playoff
baseball so we were able torebond the city with the
(10:52):
baseball team and that was oneof my goals coming in.
Speaker 1 (10:55):
Well, I've wanted to you know, since a lot of my
listeners are high school slashcollege coaches and players and
parents of those areas, howimportant is it to be coachable?
Speaker 3 (11:12):
I think it's one of the most important traits we can
have as we walk through life.
And you know, I won't say fromsix to 66, because six it's hard
to coach anybody.
That's six, and I don't meanthat in a bad way.
They're six.
You know they're distractedeasily and they're kids, they
need to be six and my son wasprobably the perfect example.
(11:32):
When I was fired by Colorado in09, my son started t-ball at
the age of four and I canremember just going out watching
practices of four-year--oldtrying to play tee ball.
It was like herding cats.
So I would continue toencourage the coaches.
But I'm not so sure how much ofa teacher you need to be right
now.
But I think a storyteller and acommunicator is going to be
(11:54):
your best two strengths, becauseit's to keep the kids engaged.
Now, as kids get older and theystart playing you know in maybe
a little bit more of ameaningful way in their teenage
years.
You know in maybe a little bitmore of a meaningful way in
their teenage years.
Even some kids now are playingcompetitive baseball at the age
of you know 8 to 10.
But coachability is critical.
I think we all should find aplace to want to be a lifelong
(12:18):
learner.
You know I'm at the age of 66right now and I'm still looking
for ways to learn.
There's different blogs I read.
There's different podcasts Ilisten to.
There's different books I'mreading.
I continually want to stretchand grow and get outside my
comfort zone.
I've learned a lot beingoutside the game now for the
past four years and not wearinga uniform and not being in the
(12:38):
vacuum every day and in thelimelight.
But now, with more opportunity,we're working with kids in
amateur ball and actuallyworking with our young players.
Here, coachability is criticaland I think one of the best
tools I've learned along the wayfor young players is if I think
I'm going to coach somebody andwhether it's a small group that
(13:00):
I'm talking with or it's aone-on-one opportunity I have
with a young player.
I let know right up front okay,we're gonna have a little
conversation.
The conversations can't be longbecause the younger the kids is
the time span.
You know the attention span isjust short, but I would say,
when I'm done sharing what Ithink is important for you today
(13:21):
, I want you to give me one ortwo things you heard me say
because, ken, unfortunately somany times in my career.
I've I thought I've shared thisbrilliant message, this
critical technique, a certainmechanic that I've kind of
helped put together and we'regoing to deploy today with our
hitters or our pitchers.
(13:42):
And these kids are noddingtheir head, shaking their head
yeah, yeah, yeah, they're going.
I can't wait for this old manto shut up.
That's what they're saying tothemselves.
And then when they get done,they hear where I sat.
And then three days later Ihave three visits.
So one of the tools that I usewith young people is that when I
share, I try and keep it short.
I try and be clear, clean,accurate with my delivery get it
(14:05):
in, get it out.
I have a friend who calls it bebrief and be bright and then
ask them back what they heard,because they might not have
heard the six points that I had.
They might have heard two ofthem, which is a win If they
heard one of them.
It's a win To expect them toremember all six.
I actually try and work inthrees, no more than three
things that I try and teach anychild, any youngster, any older
(14:27):
player, and then I ask them atthe end what did you hear me say
?
If they got nothing, I go.
Okay, we're going to revisit itOnce they have to do that again
.
They're going to listen muchbetter the next time because
they know the old man ain'tgoing to let him go until I give
him something back.
So the importance ofcoachability critical.
Speaker 1 (14:46):
If you were a high school player today with the
talent you had, what would youtell yourself to get the most
out of your ability?
What would you tell?
Speaker 3 (14:55):
yourself to get the most out of your ability.
It would be trust the reps,work as hard as you can in
practice so you can actuallyplay in the game.
Most of us have done itbackwards.
Practice is easier than thegame and I learned this from
Steve Kerr, the head coach withthe Warriors now.
He talked about one of the mostchallenging parts of his career
(15:16):
was their team wasn't playingwell and Phil Jackson came up
with a new scheme he was goingto scrimmage.
They were going to scrimmage,you know, four days a week,
which in the NBA you doscrimmage, but it's short
incremental bursts and you stopFootball.
You know you have pad dayHockey.
They have skate arounds.
(15:38):
Baseball was the one sport thatwas the last one to the table
about trying to regauge gamespeed in practice opportunities.
You know it was old coaches.
Throw BP 50 miles an hour, tryand throw it at the sweet spot.
You hit them nice little fungoswhere all their good hops,
nothing's done at game speed andpractice for baseball.
Many years when I played soSteve Kerr said Phil Jackson
(15:58):
told me that this week I wasgoing to cover Michael.
I was going to cover MichaelJordan, he said I wanted to
throw up in my mouth I don'tthink he said that, but I know
he had to feel it Um, and hesaid, after going through that
process for a while, come gametime, no matter who I got to
play against or had to cover, itwas easier.
The games became easy becausepractice was so hard.
(16:21):
So the one thing I would tellmyself at Young Club Hurdle
would be kid, find a way to makepractice harder.
So the and trust the reps onceyou get in the game, because so
many times these kids do workhard at practice, but when they
get in the game it's a differentmindset.
The game becomes way tooimportant more than the practice
and they lose focus of whatthey were doing throughout the
(16:42):
week.
They were creating anopportunity to be successful in
the game.
So trust your reps and makepractice harder.
Speaker 1 (16:57):
I had players toward uh, uh, I want to say back in
2016,.
We were putting together aprogram for the handout for the,
for the parents and the peoplethat came to the game, and I I
just a simple assignment was.
You know, I had the playersfill out and ask in the
questions, and one of thequestions was what's your
favorite MLB team?
And I was astonished that I hadthree players on my high school
(17:17):
team.
They were like I don't watchhigh school, I don't watch major
league baseball, I don't have afavorite team, and you know, I
know it's important that youhave to get out and play the
game, but I think there's a lotcan be taken away from just
sitting down and watching howthe best in the world do it.
And you know, what are yourthoughts on that?
Speaker 3 (17:40):
Well, no, I don't disagree.
But I got to remind myself, ken, that these kids aren't me and
the generation of kids.
Every generation has complainedabout the generation that's
coming up behind them.
It's just because it's what wedo and I can't expect kids to
(18:00):
have the same interest that Idid.
I mean, I collected baseballcards.
Ask how many of your playerscollect baseball cards.
Nowadays, old men and old grownpeople collect baseball cards
more than kids.
Now it's become a collectible,a hobby.
There's money tied to it, butin the bad cards, the cards like
if I got a card of me right now, my card would be on my spokes
(18:22):
on my bicycle.
I'd take that clothespin andput the baseball card on there
to make my bike sound like ithad a motor.
I understand what you're sayingwith watching games.
I think it's good opportunitiesfor them to watch other people
play the game and they may findsomething they're attracted to,
a style of play, an energy ofplay.
They'll also see things thatthey're not attracted to.
(18:42):
Well, that kid's got no energyor that team's got no energy,
that team doesn't hustle, thatteam doesn't run balls out.
So I do believe there's animportant factor of it.
I wouldn't say it's a dealbreaker if they don't have a
favorite team.
Maybe they have a favorite teamin another sport I don't know
if you ask them baseballspecifically but maybe they have
a favorite team, but it's adifferent sport.
(19:04):
Maybe that's an avenue to go.
I mean, I grew up a DetroitTiger fan.
I was a fan of every Detroitteam.
I still am to this day.
Al Kaline was my guy.
I still am to this day.
Al Kaline was my guy.
The kids today, they have somany distractions and it's not
their fault.
They have those distractions.
I think what we can help alongthe way with is eliminating some
distractions for them and trulyjust trying to help them find.
(19:28):
If you're playing baseball, whydo you play it?
Do you love the game?
Is it something that yourparents want you to do to get
you out of the house?
I mean, what's the why behindyour playing?
And then try and work with themon their.
Why Do you love the game?
Have you thought aboutpracticing a little more?
Did you ever think aboutplaying summer ball or a travel
ball?
(19:48):
Or do you ever watch a game onTV, then go there?
Or how about the junior collegedown the street?
Have you ever watched them play?
Speaker 1 (20:01):
Just different questions different ways to try
and plug them into somethingthat they may have a love for.
Yeah, definitely I you know, as, as a manager, what was your
way of connecting with, with theyounger players that were
either with the Pirates or theRockies, or even in your
experience with minor leagues?
Speaker 3 (20:19):
It's fortunate.
Well, I've got a son who's 19,first year in college.
I do have a young adultdaughter, maddie's 21.
Maddie was born with a birthdefect.
She has special needs, so I'vehad to learn to communicate in a
special needs community as well.
And you know, most of the timesall parents go through the
situation where they have kidsat home and if you don't give a
kid a good answer to a question,their next question is why and
(20:43):
why and why you learn to give agood answer.
Well, even within Maddie at theage of 21 now, and in her group
and her community, if you don'tgive a good answer, you get a
lot of why.
So it's helped me, think it'shelped me process my answer
before I give it.
But I've also been able to findout.
I have an older daughter,ashley, that's 38, that has
helped me with my cues.
(21:03):
I try and find coins with theseyoung kids, ken, and what I mean
by coin is the hobby.
What do they like to do whenthey're not playing ball?
It may be a musician, it may bea musician, it may be.
They like dogs, some kids liketo hunt, some kids like to fish,
some girls like dance, theylike music, whatever it may be.
I look for those opportunities.
Connect with them on somethingoutside of the sport we're
(21:24):
connected to.
So every time they see mewalking to them they think, oh
God, here comes coach, it'sgoing to be something about
baseball, we're going to talkabout baseball.
I hope that I can develop arelationship with him where they
see me walking through themthey go oh my gosh, I wonder
what he's going to ask me today.
You know he's always got adifferent topic that we talk
about, or then you find a coupletopics they really like to talk
about.
Then all you usually have to do, ken, you ask them one question
(21:45):
and they take it and run withit and they, they do most of the
talking, which is the best wayto develop that relationship.
I try and stay young, I try andstay current, but I don't want
to be fake about it either.
There's some things that kidsare interested in today that I
have no interest in.
I've never been a gamer.
You know my game was pong.
I played pinball.
I'm not a gamer, and a lot ofthese kids play game, whether
(22:10):
it's Madden, I get it but that,but I have no experience in it
either.
So I want to make sure I'mauthentic and I'm real in the
conversation of what we'retalking about.
Speaker 1 (22:20):
That makes total sense.
And you know, a challenge thata lot of high school coaches are
facing nowadays is you, theirapproach to not only their
players but the parents thatthey're having to to work with.
And if you were given theassignment of coaching a high
school baseball team, how do you, how would you go about getting
(22:45):
the players to buy in, whichthat would probably be the
easier part, but also to get theparents to buy in, even if it's
the parent who, whose kid, who,isn't getting a lot of playing
time?
Speaker 3 (22:58):
No, that that is probably one of your biggest
areas where you can become moreimpactful or less impactful.
Uh, the parent buy-in.
And you know the parents.
They're not going to go away,they're, they're connected to
their kids.
They're, more often than not,going to have an inflated
(23:18):
evaluation of the talent levelthat their child has because
they're parents.
Some of them don't, but a lotof them do.
I think the best thing I woulddo is try and have maybe what
they used to call those firesidechat.
I mean, just get the parentstogether and, okay, look here.
Here.
Here's my vision on this year.
(23:38):
Here's the things I feel thatare important.
Here's where I think you canhelp.
Here's where I think we need tobe able to work through and not
build walls but build bridges.
You're going to want to watchyour kid play.
Everybody wants their kid toplay.
Only nine can play at a time.
You know, and I'd share.
I'm going to try and have acertain five-man rotation.
(24:00):
We're going to work kids out ofthe bullpen.
I'm going to try and geteverybody involved and engaged,
because nobody wants to justpractice and not play.
However, nine will start thegame.
How we work from there?
We'll have conversationsthroughout the year where I see
your son or your daughter, wherethey fit into the program,
because I want to be authenticand I want to be real with you.
(24:21):
I don't want to try and trickyou and I know parents these
days they almost feel likethey're a general manager
because of the financialinvestment involved in sports.
You know I'm paying this andI'm paying that, and Johnny
needs this or Joey needs that.
Well, I do think honestcommunication is best.
And then I do think there'stimes you got to understand that
(24:42):
you may not like the way it isright now, or your son might not
, but don't be a self-fulfillingprophet.
Make sure that you encouragehim when he's not playing.
I could use your help thenbecause there's going to be an
opportunity where he's going toget a chance or she's going to
get a chance, and if they've notworked, if they've not prepared
, that chance may be fleeting,but if they have and they can
(25:04):
move upon it.
You know, one of the things Ishare with early groups, young
groups right now is I revisitthe fact that Tom Brady wasn't
starting quarterback atUniversity of Michigan Bob
Greasy's kid, brian Greasy, was.
I mean, there's all kinds ofpeople that you share with the
parents Look, this guy didn'tstart, but he was prepared and
ready when an opportunity camealong.
(25:26):
High school's short, it's threeyears.
Everybody wants to play,especially if they're a senior
sometimes, and life's not fair,right, but the thing that is
fair about life is it's unfairfor everybody.
You know, and if you're abetter baseball player, you're
going to play more and we wantto make sure.
I mean I'm going to doeverything I can to help your
son be the best player they canbe.
(25:46):
That's my promise to you.
I need your help along the wayif you're willing to give that.
Speaker 1 (25:54):
That's probably where I'd start.
Well, being someone that youknow, the amount of time that
you've been around baseball, areyou more of an old school type
of coach or do you, you know,grow with the analytics?
How was your approach to itwith?
Speaker 3 (26:13):
the analytics.
How was your approach to it?
Well, no, I mean old school.
Definitely, the game that Igrew up with, the game that I
fell in love with, isn't beingplayed right now, but that's
okay.
That doesn't mean it's a badthing.
The game started to pivot indifferent directions, probably
my last five years in Pittsburgh.
(26:34):
The first pivot was after I gotfired in Colorado in 2009, and
I went to work for the MLBNetwork the second half of the
season.
I got to go back and have thesepre-show meetings and all these
kids and interns were workingand grabbing statistics and
these new group of statisticscalled analytics, and I started
digging into some of that then,just understanding where I
(26:55):
thought the game was headed.
And not only was it headedthere, it's landed there and
it's set up tense there now.
But I know the game's going togo on with or without me.
If I want to be a part of thegame, it goes back to being
coachable.
I needed to be coachable, Ineeded to learn new things and I
was fortunate that when I gotwith a group in Pittsburgh, neil
(27:17):
Huntington and Dan Fox wereboth analytically driven but
also had some old school values.
I was more old school drivenwith some analytical values that
I thought made sense.
So we became a hybrid modeltogether.
Because by saying that I share,I spoke.
So we became a hybrid modeltogether Because, by saying that
(27:38):
I share, I spoke at the I-70coaches clinic last year.
I spoke at the Colorado dugoutcoaches convention and I
actually have a presentation.
It's called it's not old schoolversus new school, let's all be
in school and I shared theimportance of some old school
values and some some of theimportance of the new school,
tech and the way they're lookingat things and find.
(27:58):
Find that hybrid model thatfits and everybody can work with
and try and learn from oneanother.
It goes back to being a hittingcoach and then having young
players that became thesehitting gurus.
They all have their own hittingcoach in the off season.
I felt I was best served if Ibuilt a relationship, tried to
build a bridge with theirhitting guru rather than build a
wall.
We both want the same resultfor the player.
(28:21):
We may have different thoughtsand ideas how we're going to
help him get there, but it can'tbe clandestine and it can't be
leveraged and it can't beopportunistic and it can't be
selfish.
So right now where the game is.
I've learned a lot in the lastfive years.
Everything that's new doesn'tmean it's good.
(28:42):
It's been life.
Life has gone that way for along time.
There are certain things Ithink that are new, that I
really don't have a lot of timefor.
There are some things that arenew that I go, wow, I wish I
would have had that earlier.
So I'm learning as I go along.
There's value in some of theanalytics, there's a science to
it which is hard to argue.
And one thing about numbers isnumbers come without emotions
(29:05):
and humans have emotions andhumans can be messy, and so
there is a side of the numbersthat I kind of lean into because
they're unemotional.
I as a coach can have recencybias.
I might like one player morethan the other.
You know we can say we need tolike them all the same.
Yeah, we need to Do you.
I don't know, it was hard for meto like every player the same,
but I tried.
(29:25):
And then the players you like alittle bit more than the other
players, you know well, yeah, hehad a pretty good day when in
reality, he probably had an okayday the kid that I didn't maybe
like as much if he had an okayday, I probably thought, oh, he
was below average.
It's called recency bias.
You know, what happened latelyis what you hold on to, so I'm
(29:46):
still learning.
I'd like to think I'm in schooland I'm not so much old school
that I can't appreciate newschool.
Speaker 1 (29:53):
Well for the MLB fan that's out there.
Should Major League Baseballmake changes to give the small
market teams an even playingfield, because it's tough to
compete with the Dodgers and theYankees.
Speaker 3 (30:12):
Yeah, and neither one's won a World Series.
In how many years?
The Dodgers won the 2020 WorldSeries?
Covid year, it's not the samebut they won a World Series.
The Yankees haven't been therein a long time.
There's arguments on both sidesof this fence.
Look at what the job TampaBay's done with the small market
.
Year after year after year,milwaukee's come up and done a
(30:34):
pretty nice job.
There's always a pop-up team ortwo.
Cleveland continues to beimpressive in that small market
Until they do it.
You've got to figure it out.
I mean, the NBA has a.
You know they've got adifferent level.
You know everybody talks abouta ceiling.
I thought maybe raising thefloor, where every team had to
(30:58):
spend at least the same amountof money and make it $100
million to raise the floorrather than have a ceiling.
But they haven't done it.
And I don't know if the ownerskeep paying top dollar for free
agent players.
So why would you think that'sgoing to go away?
There's just too many oxymorons.
I mean, there's too manyconflicting things that go on.
(31:19):
People say this, but then theydo that.
So until we can get everybodyon the same page, it makes it
hard for small market teams.
You look at what they did inFlorida.
What they're doing in Floridanow is hard.
Pittsburgh, it's been hard fora few years.
We Florida.
What they're doing in Floridanow is hard.
Pittsburgh it's been hard for afew years.
We had a nice run for a time,but the teams of tennis what's
going on in Oakland has beenhard.
You'd like to think there's abetter way, but we haven't
(31:42):
seemed to come up with one yet.
Speaker 1 (31:43):
Well, I asked this question of every guest that I
have on the podcast, do you?
Speaker 3 (31:50):
hate losing or love winning?
It's a great question.
Um now, yeah, I mean hands of aflame, and if I had to give you
one answer, which is prettyunfair, uh, I would say I love
winning.
However, the love of winning,the love of winning.
(32:12):
Sometimes so many things getsacrificed along the way Health,
family, truthfully, lessonslearned, because I would tell my
players there's winning andthere's learning.
You only lose when you don'tlearn anything.
We could have a bad game, butif we came up with a couple
nuggets on things that we canlearn to do better, that's not
(32:34):
losing.
Pain brings immediate attentionto a specific area, and losing
usually does that.
It brings immediate attentionto a specific area.
But I think there's got to be acalmness to understanding why
you lost, and what I've alwaystried to share with my players,
coaches and teams is, if youmeet the demands of the game as
(32:57):
they present themselves, you putyourself in a better position
to win the game.
If you do not meet the demandsof the game and you know what I
mean by demands of the gamerunner at third less than two
outs.
Runner at second no outs firstpitch strikes, two out walks,
all the little things that cometogether that you know, leaving
runners on base and not scoringthem.
One of the things I'll jumpbackwards just tell you.
(33:20):
One of the things I don'tappreciate about analytics is
that they've lessened it,cheapened the value of a run
batted in.
But I'll tell you this there's15 major league games tonight,
30 teams and half the managersthat lose.
Every one of them will bring upin his post-game conference we
had opportunities to score andwe did.
(33:41):
The run batted in is a valuablenumber.
It always has been, it alwayswill be in my mind.
And the losing part of it youdon't meet the demands of the
game.
When you continually don't meetthose demands, you put yourself
in a bad position to win.
So long answer, but I do lovewinning.
Speaker 1 (34:01):
Yeah Well, as a player who was the best pitcher
that you faced.
Speaker 3 (34:08):
Oh my gosh, I faced so many Cy Young Award winners.
Ron Guidry in 78 may have beenthe best pitcher.
I faced so many Cy Young awardwinners.
Ron Guidry in 78 may have beenthe best pitcher I faced.
I faced Nolan Ryan multipletimes.
He was a really good pitcher.
Jim Palmer, Cy Young and thenthe one guy that owned me
(34:31):
probably a lot of people won'trecognize the name but Shane
Raleigh.
I think I had one hit in about40 lifetime at bats off Shane
Raleigh.
He was a left-handed pitcher, astarter, a reliever, American
League, National League, Someguys you just don't hit.
He was one of the guys I justdidn't hit, but then there were
some guys that I hit pretty well.
So go figure.
Speaker 1 (34:53):
Yeah Well, to finish up.
Speaker 3 (34:58):
So go figure, yeah Well, to finish up what is your
best story as a player ormanager?
Well, I'll give you a funny oneand I'll leave the umpire's
name out of it, but I think Ialways get drawn to this one
because, you know, some peoplewould ask me well, as a manager,
did you ever get thrown out onpurpose?
Did you ever go out there andtry and stir up your team or
(35:20):
make a stand or do this?
And I'll say, you know, yes,there were times when maybe I
wanted to spark some energy orlight a fuse.
You know the male testosteronething or the ego gets involved.
We weren't playing well.
We'd had the same crew for fourgames.
It was a four-game series.
The last of the four days,every game we got thrown a
(35:42):
beating.
We didn't pitch it, we didn'thit it, we couldn't catch it.
The fourth game.
I've had enough, I've seenenough and I run out there.
In about the third inning Istart letting one guy have it
and it's a veteran umpire.
He's been around the block,We've known each other for a
long time.
He looked at me and he goesokay, let me stop you right
(36:05):
there, cause you can saywhatever you want to say.
You can call me any name youwant, I'm not throwing you out.
I've had to watch this horriblebaseball for four days.
You're going to have to watchit for four days too.
You're going to watch all nightin it.
Now go say what you want.
I'm tired of watching.
You guys are horrible.
And he went into.
He got into me.
You can't pitch it, you can'tthrow it.
You're going to come out hereand yell at me.
Go ahead.
I went back to my dugout justbeen asking my bench coach.
(36:27):
He goes.
What happened?
I thought you were going to getthrown out.
I go dude.
He declawed.
He took the claws right off me.
He just said we're so bad thathe wasn't going to throw me out.
He wanted me to watch it.
Amazing.
Speaker 1 (36:38):
That's great.
I, I, um, my only interactionI've ever had with a major
league umpire that that actuallyhad a disagreement with was
Larry Barnett, and uh, heactually uh, they named a park
at it after him, near where Ilive and it's a league team that
(36:59):
we played.
They played their games thereand he was very particular about
his field and uh, he would comethere and he would just yell at
you if you he didn't like theway you took infield or whatever
, and I just was not having agreat day.
And he started, started in onme and then he come down to the
(37:21):
fence and and I made a commentabout the 75 world series where
he the questionable call that hemade and with Pete Rose and
everything, and I just boy he, Iwas like he was not happy and I
was like that's the closestI'll ever come to being on a
major league field arguing withan umpire.
Speaker 3 (37:41):
How about it.
Hey, before we go, though, I'mgoing to make one comment,
because I'm going to have to runhere, and this is a parting
shot.
That's a cheap shot, but you'veonly got one good looking
helmet in that photo behind youand that's that Michigan
Wolverine helmet.
Speaker 1 (37:56):
Go, good looking helmet and that photo behind you
, and that's that MichiganWolverine helmet Go blue, oh my
God.
Speaker 3 (38:02):
There we go.
Well, I'm hoping.
Speaker 1 (38:03):
You're a Buckeye fan?
Uh yeah, I graduated from Ohiostate, so yeah, we're hoping
things will change this year.
Speaker 3 (38:11):
Oh, it's been a fun ride.
Speaker 1 (38:14):
Yes, Well, everybody, it's Clint hurdle, fun ride.
Yes, well, everybody, it'sClint Hurdle and Coach.
I can't thank you enough fortaking the time to do this with
me and you know I wish you thebest.
And if you could I readsomething where you kind of put
out like a newsletter where youhave 7,000 subscribers.
Speaker 3 (38:35):
Yeah, ken, I have a daily email.
I actually have two dailyemails I send out.
One's a devotional and they'refrom faith-based pastors or
priests sometimes just regularguys, tony Dungey faith-based
encouragement.
And then I have a leadershipencouragement, a coaching
encouragement, one that I putout.
(38:55):
They're both daily.
They go six days a week.
I'm like Truett Cathay I takeSundays off.
There's no emails on Sundays, aday of rest.
But all you got to do is typeinto your browser clinthurdlecom
Clinthurdlecom.
It'll take you to the smallwebsite.
It's easy to.
All you got to do is type inyour email address and then hit
(39:15):
one of the hit devotional or hitencouragement, or hit the
button for both, and you'llstart receiving them the next
day.
But it's clinturdlecom.
Over 7,000 people havesubscribed.
I've been doing it since 09,going to my 15th year, and just
a host of different authors andpeople that encourage me and
people I learned from.
Speaker 1 (39:33):
Well, like I said, thanks again, I really do
appreciate it and you know Ihope you really enjoy your
summer and, whatever you do,keep staying around baseball,
because you're too good to notbe around the game of baseball.
Speaker 3 (39:50):
Well, I appreciate it , Ken.
I'm glad we got to pull thistogether.
Thank you, sir.
Speaker 1 (39:54):
Special thanks to Colorado Rockies bench coach
Clint Hurdle for joiningBaseball Coaches Unplugged.
Today's episode is powered bythe Netting Professionals,
improving programs one facilityat a time.
If you want your field lookingits best, you need to contact
them today at 844-620-2707, orvisit them online at
(40:16):
wwwnettingproscom.
As always, I'm your host CoachKen Carpenter.
Please be sure to join us everyWednesday for a new episode
with some of the best coachesfrom across the country.
Take care, thank you.
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