February 13, 2025 • 30 mins
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Gene Smith, a Division I athletic director for nearly 40 years was a trailblazer for Black college administrators. In 1986 when he earned his first athletic director job, he was one of two Black Division I-A athletic directors. Through his diversity and inclusion efforts, Smith has played a big role in administrators from underrepresented groups earning athletic director jobs themselves.
Gene Smith’s true legacy can be seen in his diverse pipeline around the country including, Patrick Chun became the first Asian American AD at a Power 5 school when Washington State hired him in 2018; Martin Jarmond spent three years as Boston College’s AD before heading to UCLA in 2020. BenJay spent a stint as Hawaii’s AD for two years and is now the CFO for the Big West Conference; Heather Lyke was hired as Pittsburgh’s AD in 2017, Diana Sabau hired as Utah State’s next AD and TJ Shelton was hired as Case Western Reserve’s AD in 2022.
Gene Smith a true door opener for Black College Administrators at the Power 5 Level and throughout all of college athletics.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
I felt that I needed to make sure that I could
demonstrate that we could do thejob.
People who were brown like mecould do the job, and I didn't
want to be the excuse for anyhiring authority to say, look,
he couldn't get it done.
He couldn't get it done atEastern Michigan, he couldn't
get it done at Iowa State orwherever.
I didn't see it as a burden.
(00:21):
I saw it as an opportunity.
I saw it as a challenge.
It drove me to try and be thebest that I could be, be
inquisitive and curious, and soI learned a lot fast.
Speaker 2 (00:38):
This is Tim Brown, host of the Be A Ballad podcast,
and I'm excited to have with metoday, as a guest at the
Appalach Director at the OhioState University, gene Smith.
Gene has been over four decadesan athletic administration
experience.
The most important in Gene hascommitted to helping that next
generation panning forward, aswe say, and Gene has truly done
(01:00):
that.
So I'm excited about thisconversation.
Today we talked to a fellowClevelander.
Brown's fan cast Indians, let'sgo, that's right, let's go.
Speaker 1 (01:10):
We're glutton for punishment, I would tell.
Although I like the Browniesthis year we're going to be in
Vegas.
Now, that's right, we're goingto be in Vegas now.
Speaker 4 (01:17):
I love it.
Speaker 2 (01:18):
Welcome Gene to the show.
Speaker 1 (01:19):
Thank you, Tim I appreciate it.
Speaker 2 (01:22):
And when did you fall in love with sports?
Speaker 1 (01:25):
You know, really it wasn't until high school.
Wow, you know, I really fell inlove with it because we didn't
have organized sports in thepublic school system.
I was in, we played the streetball and all that stuff.
But when I went to Chanel, youknow they had organized sports
and it was a challenging timefor me.
(01:47):
So I dove straight into it andwrestled and played baseball,
played basketball, ran track, Idid it all and obviously
football was the one that I fellin love with the most.
But yeah, it was really in highschool where it became kind of
my passion.
Speaker 2 (02:07):
How was that experience leaving the
neighborhood?
Because you're a Kennedy guy,I'm a short guy.
Speaker 3 (02:11):
Yeah right.
Speaker 2 (02:12):
And we beat up on y'all all the time.
Speaker 4 (02:14):
That's right, but that's it.
Speaker 2 (02:15):
It was good Said it was a real deal I was at.
How'd you end up at Chanel?
Speaker 1 (02:19):
Yeah, my dad sent me down in the ninth grade after,
you know, getting ready to leaveCharles W Elliot.
I'm like, say, go to Chanel.
He said, look, you're not goingto go to John F Kennedy, which
was the natural writer ofpassion.
So I he just said, look, you'regoing to go to Chanel High
School I didn't know where itwas and you're going to catch
the bus over by St Henry's andyou're going to bus out to
(02:40):
Chanel.
And it was all boys, all white.
There was three black kids inthe class at that time and I in
the school at that time and Ithink he wanted to separate me
from where.
You know, me and my boys weregoing.
You know he, you know we were,we were trying to survive in the
(03:00):
neighborhood and there were,there were things that occurred
and I think he saw it and hejust wanted me to be in a
different environment and youknow, at the time I was pretty
angry.
It was a hard transitionbecause it was all white and I
was not Catholic and it wasreally challenging for me and
and sports became my outlet.
So it was, it was just rightafter the civil rights.
(03:24):
This was 1969.
So it was really a challengefor me, but it was the best
thing for me and I'm glad he didit.
Speaker 2 (03:33):
He talked about who were some of those coaches who
were kind of role models.
Speaker 1 (03:37):
Yeah, you know it's.
You know I had a in high school.
I had some really good coaches.
Joe Lynch, the basketball coachwas probably the best one you
know.
I remember I, you know I hit akid in the basketball game.
I punched him, oh Lord, and Joesat me down and you know we
established a great relationshipafter that, I'm sure.
(03:58):
It was my first years, you know,I was so frustrated with so
many different things and I letit out.
And so he, he taught, he taughtme a lot.
And then I, you know there wasanother one by the name of Kerry
Bulkman in football he was justgreat and Bob Spicer there were
so many high school coachesthat were impactful.
But you know, when I got tocollege it was the air procedure
(04:20):
and our head coach was prettyimpactful and the defensive line
coach, Joe Yanto, was reallyimpactful for me, so I was
blessed.
Speaker 4 (04:30):
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Speaker 2 (05:06):
You know you played defensive in Notre Dame for four
years, one of the nationalchampionship team.
You know, like, can you talkabout?
You saw excellence.
Can you talk about whatexcellence?
Because these young I don'tthink these young guys really
understand what excellence is.
They think just you knowgetting a lot of likes and all
that kind of stuff.
Can you talk?
Can you take us inside?
(05:27):
Because you know we see NotreDame, we see all that and you
were there.
You talked about Air Parcet.
You dropped spames there.
You take us inside there.
What was the excellence?
Speaker 1 (05:36):
No, you know, it's funny.
When I went from high school toNotre Dame, we won the
championship in freshman year in1973, you know, beat Alabama in
the sugar bowl.
We were undefeated.
And so I walked into asituation where I saw excellence
at its best.
You know, I was weird.
There was a great tight end bythe name of David Casper.
(05:56):
He called him the coach.
He played for the Reds and hewas so committed to doing
everything that he could to bethe best tight end in the
country.
So I saw him work at it and sawhim start practice before
everybody else.
And so all those little thingsthat the those who were at the
(06:18):
top of the pyramid do to be thebest.
I witnessed it my first year.
Mike Thompson was a great freesafety.
He was always the first onewith the ghosts, with our tight
end, dave Casper, and then hewas the last one to be, and so I
just saw this excellence and itinspired me and inspired others
(06:38):
.
And also I had a roommate whowas, you know, the best high
school player during his timeand Ross Browner at war, in war
in Ohio, and I ended up playingfor the Bengals and he was
actually, I think he was thirdin the Heisman Trophy one year
and went to Lombardi at Lombardiand Ross and I would work out
(07:00):
all the time, and you know so weused to.
We come stay at our house inCleveland and we go in the
shaker heights and run, becausethey were the only ones that had
a polyurethane trap Right.
Speaker 2 (07:10):
Brown, yeah, brown, yeah, everybody else had a
center track.
Speaker 1 (07:14):
So so so so you know, I just saw, you know top of the
pyramids do athletes, you know,and that's in themselves to be
the best.
Speaker 2 (07:23):
You also had an experience as an assistant coach
.
Yeah, that was great.
I wanted to undisputed nationalchampionships.
Speaker 3 (07:29):
You had the player deal.
You had the coach deal.
Speaker 2 (07:32):
So how did that shift go from being a coach to
athletic administration?
Speaker 1 (07:35):
Yeah, you know well, I didn't aspire to be a coach.
My degree was in businessadministration.
Okay that Dan Devine at thetime asked me to stay on and be
a graduate assistant.
So I did that and then hepromoted me full-time after my
first semester and so I coachedfor four years.
And then they brought in JerryFaus and he didn't hire me back
(07:56):
and so I decided I would just godo what I wanted to do, which
was being business.
So I went to work for IBMselling computers in the early
80s to manufacturing anddistribution industry, and then
the defensive back coach atNotre Dame gentlemen, by the
name of Paul Schultz GodBlessing passed away.
But he called me one day andsaid hey, gene, he had become
(08:17):
the athletic director at EasternMichigan University.
And he called me and said Gene,I have this position, an
assistant AD position.
I need somebody with businessbackground.
I need somebody to understandfootball.
He had just hired a footballcoach and he wanted somebody
that he could trust.
So he taught me into it.
I love some money on the tableat IBM.
I didn't love it, but so I wentand he taught me the business
(08:42):
and two years later he retiredand ultimately they promoted me.
So I found my career path andI'm forever indebted to him for
the opportunity he gave me,everything he taught me, and you
know so I was blessed to havethat relationship.
Speaker 2 (08:58):
What would you say was one of those life lessons
that you learned from him thatyou still care on today?
Yeah, you know.
Speaker 1 (09:03):
I think for him he was interesting.
He was not the people personthat I am, he was the detailed
person, and so I learned to payattention to the details.
I was a salesman.
I was selling IBM computers inthe 80s, when everybody was
scared of computers, I thoughtthey were going to replace them,
and so he was the guy thattaught me around about details
(09:27):
and compliance and things ofthat nature, and so I became
really detailed oriented withhis teachings and you know we
talked football all the time, soyou know that was something
that you know.
I'm blessed that I had a leaderwho understood the sport and
because in the collegiatelandscape you know it's football
(09:50):
and basketball that drives it,and so he was really good in
that space as well.
Speaker 2 (09:56):
You know, in 1985, arizona State made history.
I heard Charles Harris as thefirst black African group at a
Power Five school, and then,eight years later, you were
hired as a second at Iowa State.
How was that being atrailblazer?
What was that experience?
Speaker 1 (10:13):
like it was.
You know it's funny for Charlesand I we're only two at a time.
So you know we go to meetingsand I, you know I knew that
certain people didn't want us inthe room and you knew that.
But there were people whoembraced us, but there were
times that Charles wouldn't beat a meeting and I'd be by
myself.
I was always on the loose.
(10:34):
But you know, my mom alwaystaught me to rise above
everything.
You just rise above it all.
And so you know, I foughtthrough challenges that were
people didn't want me in theroom or want me around or want
me a part of, didn't want me aspart of a working group.
But I was fortunate that I hadthree people that dragged me in
(10:58):
and took care of me.
One was Cedric Dempsey, who wasthe athlete director of Arizona
State.
He became the president of theNCAA.
Another one was Delos Dots.
He was the athlete director ofTexas.
But the main player was MichaelCleary from Cleveland.
He ran the National Associationof Collegiate Directors of
(11:18):
Athletics, which is still inCleveland on the west side, and
you know, he again, god blesshim.
He passed away, but he pulledme into committees and placed me
on committees and I think itwas because I was from Cleveland
, he was a Notre Dame fan, so Ithink all that stuff.
So he, those three, kind ofpulled me in and gave me
(11:40):
opportunities that I otherwisewould not have gotten, because
there were people who didn'twant me there.
It was the same for Charles.
Charles was older but it wasthe same for him.
Speaker 2 (11:52):
You've also said this , that I can't fail.
Yeah, you can't be.
I couldn't be the blackathletic director.
That didn't make it Right.
I always felt I didn't wantthat to be an excuse for not
having to hire another one.
So why was that so important toyou?
Speaker 1 (12:07):
Well, you know, at that time, you know we didn't
get opportunities.
You know, it was kind of likenot just in athletics, it was in
different industries, and so Ifelt that I needed to make sure
that I could demonstrate that wecould do the job.
People who were brown like mecould do the job, and I didn't
(12:27):
want to be the excuse for anyhiring authority to say, look,
he couldn't get it done.
You know, he couldn't get itdone at Eastern Michigan, he
couldn't get it done at IowaState or wherever.
So I didn't see it as a burden,I saw it as an opportunity, I
saw it as a challenge.
It drove me, you know, to tryand be the best that I could be,
be inquisitive and curious, andso I learned a lot fast, and
(12:51):
that was always a part of me wasjust to make sure that I didn't
fail so I could open the doorsfor others.
Speaker 2 (12:59):
And truly you did that.
You know you have quite a tree,Quite a legacy.
Speaker 1 (13:03):
Yeah, bless the yeah.
Speaker 2 (13:04):
People talk about Bill Ballet's hacking his
coaching tree or.
Prasail's Bill Prasail, hiscoaching tree.
But I'm looking at yours.
Yeah, I'm pretty blessed andI'm going to call the road.
I'm going to call the road now.
We've got Patrick Churn, firstAsian American AD at a par for
Washington State.
Yeah, you got Martin or Jaronspent three years at Boston
College, ucla.
(13:26):
Now he's returning to Big Tennext summer.
You got Ben J.
You got Heather man.
Yeah yeah, that was good.
Speaker 1 (13:33):
How does that make you feel?
It was great.
You know that was prettyintentional, tim.
So all four of them worked withme at Ohio State.
Oh, wow, and they were all my,that was my leadership team and
they all inspired to be athleticdirectors.
And then that's part of my job,and all the supervisors of our
(13:53):
department understand, as partof their job, to help people get
to where they want to be, andso we had a strategic plan to
help them be ADs.
I remember sending them to theNorth Carolina one year because
you had North Carolina, northCarolina State Rake Force, all
of that right there, and Icalled my colleagues at those
schools and said, hey, I'msending down a group and
(14:17):
hopefully you can spend timewith them and teach them what
you know and introduce them toother people in your department
so that they can learn fromother places, not just me.
And so Fluan Joe Constitue Leonfrom Oklahoma, a good friend
who's the athletic director,flew him in and did a session
with them and a couple others toteach them about how he became
(14:38):
an athletic director in hisleadership style.
So there were a number ofthings that I did to try and
give them the growth that theyneeded and that's always been a
part of me.
Scott Barnes, the athleticdirector at Oregon State, used
to be my associate at Iowa State.
He was my main fundraiser andhe aspired to be an AD, so I
(14:58):
taught him all.
When a visiting team footballteam comes, the athletic
director usually comes on Fridaynight.
Right right, go visit time withthem, go spend time with them.
When we go on the roll, makesure you, if you go with me,
just make sure you connect withthe athletic director at that
place and tell them you onlyneed 15 minutes of your time.
Next thing you know they'llgive you 45.
Speaker 4 (15:18):
Oh yeah, right, right so exactly right, but anyway.
Speaker 1 (15:21):
So it was important to me to use my opportunities to
give other people opportunities, and back in the day, in the
good old boy system, thereweren't a whole lot of us who
didn't make any calls for people.
So when I reached a level inthis career where I felt
comfortable, presidents wouldtake my call.
That's what I did.
(15:43):
That's big.
Speaker 2 (15:44):
yeah, I hear a lot in our conversation about
relationships.
Can you talk to young people oranybody who's listening to this
pocket?
Why are relationships soimportant?
Speaker 1 (15:55):
Yeah, you know I would tell young people, people
are the heart and soul of allthat matters in life Making sure
that you connect with people.
You know you yourself have tohave the highest values
integrity and respect for others, but people are the main source
(16:20):
in our society for us to besuccessful ourselves.
Do the eyes of others, you seeyourself, and if you don't
establish relationships withpeople and empower them to help
you see what you don't see yourbarn spots then you're not gonna
get better, and so it's soimportant for everyone in our
(16:43):
country to do everything theycan to establish relationships.
I tell people I have a purpose.
Every day I have a purpose, butI have a mission as well, and
my mission is to be missed.
Wow, that's deep.
You can't be missed if youdon't have great relationships.
(17:03):
You know, we all have people inour lives that you know we got
there, gone for whatever reason,because they behave in a
certain way.
But if you aspire to be missed,you treat people the right way.
You open up to people, youhopefully create an opportunity
for people to open up to you.
You be respectful, you behonest, you know it's.
(17:24):
You be nice.
It's so easy to be nice to them.
It's so easy to be nice.
It just drives me nuts whenpeople are so disrespectful or
just not nice.
I don't think it's easy, wow.
Speaker 2 (17:38):
Be missed.
I like that.
That's it, that's the mission.
That's the mission and it'sgood.
Be missed, be missed.
You know you are.
The word is that you fundraiseis one of your major gifts being
able to raise money.
Speaker 1 (17:51):
That's it.
That's it, that's what we do.
Speaker 2 (17:53):
And as we're sitting here thinking about your career
and listening to you talk aboutthat, IBM selling computers, so
you brought that to the deal andsince you've been in Ohio State
, you raise a lot of money fordifferent facilities.
Most of us have been privatefunding, so how have you been
able to do that?
Speaker 1 (18:10):
Well, it gets to what we were just talking about.
Talks about relationships, andso listening is a critical skill
in fundraising.
So a lot of times people don'tunderstand that you got to
really tune into what is aperson interested in.
You may go into a fundraisingcall and you have a particular
(18:32):
thing you're trying to sell, butif you don't ask the right
questions and listen, you mightunderstand that they're not
interested in what you'reselling, but they might be
interested in something else.
They might be trying to raisemoney for ability, but they
might be interested inscholarship.
So, asking good questions andbeing curious and being
(18:54):
respectful and doing a lot ofthat and listening, and then
99.9% of the time you're goingto hear a person's passion.
You really will, you'll learnit.
And then you, from afundraising perspective, you try
and guide that passion to afundraising opportunity.
(19:16):
I always tell my teammates indevelopment don't try and force
somebody to give to acapital-contained facility when
they're not really passionateabout it, because they'll regret
the gift.
You want them to cherish whatthey just did, and so anyway.
So it's listening, establishedrelationship listening or just
(19:39):
being curious.
Speaker 5 (19:40):
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Speaker 2 (21:05):
What is your leadership style?
Speaker 1 (21:08):
Tim, I don't have one style.
I use different styles kind ofseamlessly, in different measure
depending upon the businesssituation.
There's a great article, the1988 Harvard Business Review.
There's a gentleman by the nameof Dan Goldman.
He was going around the worlddoing a survey of the top 400
(21:28):
CEOs around the world who hadbeen very successful.
He was going out with theintent of trying to understand
what's the one leadership stylethat they employed.
He found out that they usemultiple leadership styles
depending upon what they'redealing with.
I remember reading that article.
(21:48):
It was only like three pagesbut he said the one thing they
all had in common was a highemotional intelligence.
Emotional intelligence, theywere very self-aware, they were
able to self-manage and theywere able to evaluate the social
environment, the group dynamics.
But you have to be self-awareand be able to self-manage in
(22:11):
order to evaluate everybody else.
There's an authoritative styleof leadership, the democratic
style, the coercive style, thepace setting style, the
affiliative style and there'sanother one I forgot.
But at the end of the day thosestyles for me just kind of
happen naturally and I learnedabout them.
(22:33):
And it is so funny as anathlete you do that anyway,
because as an athlete you learnthings in the group dynamics
that a lot of people don't learn.
You learn how to work withpeople from all walks of life.
You learn how to be vulnerable.
If you really pause and thinkabout the experiences that you
(22:56):
have as an athlete and you bringthem to the intellectual level,
you got a lot, and actually theleadership styles many of them
I learned as an athlete.
Speaker 2 (23:11):
It's good you know.
After 19 years you're retiringfrom the Ohio State University.
You have truly left theuniversity in a great space.
What are some of the thingsthat you're most proud of doing
that time and there's been someups and downs what?
Speaker 1 (23:24):
is the most proud of you know the winning always
matters.
You know the championships thatmany sports have won.
But I'll tell you, tell themthe I call it the light bulb
moments.
You know I've always had apassion for creating environment
where we develop the studentathlete holistically, not just
their athletic talent but makingsure they learn in the
(23:46):
classroom, they compete in theclassroom, they to develop as
people.
Many of them don't come in withdefined values.
You know they, they had.
They know families are part oftheir value system and many of
them gods are part of theirvalue system, but they don't.
The others they haven't reallydefined.
A lot of times with my freshmanI'll ask them in their first
(24:07):
session how many of you havelied before?
Obviously they always there.
And I said how many of you liedthe second time to cover up the
first lie?
You know Most of them raisedtheir hands and I asked them how
does that feel?
And it's so easy to just tellthe truth.
People are forgiving.
So you begin, you go down thesepaths of teaching them the
(24:27):
value of integrity and honestyand why that's so important,
along with your family and God.
So you go through those thingsand and my, my moments that I'm
most proud of is those lightbulb moments when I see a
behavior, behavior modificationoccur.
And you know that studentathlete flips the switch or In
(24:48):
the classroom, when they're notcommitted in the classroom, and
all of a sudden you see theindicators and all of a sudden
they flip the switch right andthey understand that they they
got to do better in theclassroom.
So I've seen a lot of that witha lot of our student athletes.
Or, you know, we had a gaywrestler, no, who struggled, and
I remember, remember when hecame out publicly and you know
(25:12):
it was, it was a big weight offof him and he did better overall
as a human being and better inthe classroom.
There's so many things thatthese young people deal with
today.
When we were coming out, youknow we just had to be resilient
.
We did, we really did, we did.
Nobody really cared, nobodycared, yeah, no, they didn't
(25:32):
care, and so you just had to getthrough it.
You know, remember I was gonnago home, I was gonna quit school
and Jo-Yan told the defensiveline coach caught me and you
know he set me out for a longtime and Told me.
You know, by the way, you know,when you drive home to
Cleveland, you know your dad'sgonna just make you turn around
and go home.
Come back here.
Speaker 2 (25:51):
So I'm like, yeah, you're right.
Speaker 4 (25:56):
Back in the day.
That's what we deal with.
Speaker 1 (25:57):
So today is a different world for our young
people.
So we have to go to where theyare and understand where they
are and then help them getthrough whatever they're dealing
with, and so those things I'mmost proud of is those white
bump moments.
Speaker 2 (26:12):
That's good.
You know.
This is a podcast about um, Alifelong legacy.
What is the legacy of changeman?
Speaker 1 (26:20):
You know, I don't know, tim, that's gotta be
defined by somebody that when Ileave and I I never, I never
think about things in that way.
I, I've always just been, I'vebeen trying to do my job and do
it the right way, and you know,who knows what somebody will
ultimately define as my legacy?
(26:41):
You know, I'm hopeful that, um,you know, we'll be around.
What we talked about earlier,uh, the people.
You know that I was respectful,that that I treated people the
right way, that I helped youngpeople be the best that they can
be.
That's one of my purposes is toWake up every day and make sure
(27:02):
we create environment for thattalented and gifted athlete
whose parents gave theirdaughter, a son, to us.
Yes, to help develop that, wecreated environment where
they're truly developing in somany different ways.
So, you know, a lot of peoplewould talk about the wins and
losses and the money raised andall that, but I, I hope there's
(27:22):
more around the student athletepart.
Speaker 2 (27:24):
That's good, you know .
As we come around the corner Ialways ask oh, I guess there's.
You know, people describe youas, uh, some call you mr Smith.
I've never been your husband,father, grandfather of seven,
eight, yeah yeah.
So the list.
You know how would you describeyourself?
Speaker 1 (27:49):
you know, um, I think I'm just trying to be as good a
person as I could be.
Um, you know, I'm driven, um, Iwant to be the best at anything
and everything we do, um, butI'm, I'm probably A low-key kind
of guy.
Uh, unless I have to, you know,go street on somebody.
(28:09):
It's just rare.
Um, but I, you know, I just Ijust have a lot of respect for
people and, um, I don't know, Ijust I just see myself more as,
uh, that kind of, you know, kindand gentle guy and what you see
is what you get.
You know, I'm pretty, prettyvanilla, you know, I'm not, I'm
(28:32):
not hard to read, so I woulddescribe myself that way I'm
tough, I have to be, you have tobe, I'm tough when I have to be
.
Um, I'm never the smartest guyin the room, never have the
highest IQ, but Pretty goodgoing good with people, oh yeah.
Speaker 2 (28:49):
Yeah, well, jean, I want to thank you for your time.
Thank you, great, greatinterview.
I got my light bulb moment Iwas thinking about my moment.
Speaker 1 (28:57):
Yeah, you always have them.
Speaker 2 (28:59):
I had a couple was talking to you.
It's been a blessing.
I want to thank the audience forlistening to a be a baller
podcast with your host, coachtim brown, and want to thank
jean smith for for enlighten usand encouraging us and, lastly,
want to thank you for yourservice.
Well, thank you for yourservice to the Ohio State
University other schools you'vebeen at, most important, I'll
thank you for making sure that,uh, the, the field is getting
(29:22):
level.
Thank you, the field is gettinglevel, that people have
opportunities.
You know if you're reachingback and pulling the next guy
and then you passing that on tothat guy, now that's right,
that's right, get the next oneby your example.
That's it, by your example.
So we want to thank you foryour time and.
I appreciate you Go box.
Speaker 3 (29:39):
If you enjoyed this episode, please share this
podcast with family and friends.
Be a baller podcast isavailable on all major podcast
stations.
Be sure to come back next weekas we continue to discuss on how
to build a lifelong legacy.
Until then, don't forget to bea baller.
This podcast was created bycoach tim brown and produced and
(30:01):
recorded by the videoproduction class of Worthington
christian high school.
I felt that I needed to make sure that I could
demonstrate that we could do thejob.
People who were brown like mecould do the job, and I didn't
want to be the excuse for anyhiring authority to say, look,
he couldn't get it done.
He couldn't get it done atEastern Michigan, he couldn't
get it done at Iowa State orwherever.
I didn't see it as a burden.
(00:21):
I saw it as an opportunity.
I saw it as a challenge.
It drove me to try and be thebest that I could be, be
inquisitive and curious, and soI learned a lot fast.
Speaker 2 (00:38):
This is Tim Brown, host of the Be A Ballad podcast,
and I'm excited to have with metoday, as a guest at the
Appalach Director at the OhioState University, gene Smith.
Gene has been over four decadesan athletic administration
experience.
The most important in Gene hascommitted to helping that next
generation panning forward, aswe say, and Gene has truly done
(01:00):
that.
So I'm excited about thisconversation.
Today we talked to a fellowClevelander.
Brown's fan cast Indians, let'sgo, that's right, let's go.
Speaker 1 (01:10):
We're glutton for punishment, I would tell.
Although I like the Browniesthis year we're going to be in
Vegas.
Now, that's right, we're goingto be in Vegas now.
Speaker 4 (01:17):
I love it.
Speaker 2 (01:18):
Welcome Gene to the show.
Speaker 1 (01:19):
Thank you, Tim I appreciate it.
Speaker 2 (01:22):
And when did you fall in love with sports?
Speaker 1 (01:25):
You know, really it wasn't until high school.
Wow, you know, I really fell inlove with it because we didn't
have organized sports in thepublic school system.
I was in, we played the streetball and all that stuff.
But when I went to Chanel, youknow they had organized sports
and it was a challenging timefor me.
(01:47):
So I dove straight into it andwrestled and played baseball,
played basketball, ran track, Idid it all and obviously
football was the one that I fellin love with the most.
But yeah, it was really in highschool where it became kind of
my passion.
Speaker 2 (02:07):
How was that experience leaving the
neighborhood?
Because you're a Kennedy guy,I'm a short guy.
Speaker 3 (02:11):
Yeah right.
Speaker 2 (02:12):
And we beat up on y'all all the time.
Speaker 4 (02:14):
That's right, but that's it.
Speaker 2 (02:15):
It was good Said it was a real deal I was at.
How'd you end up at Chanel?
Speaker 1 (02:19):
Yeah, my dad sent me down in the ninth grade after,
you know, getting ready to leaveCharles W Elliot.
I'm like, say, go to Chanel.
He said, look, you're not goingto go to John F Kennedy, which
was the natural writer ofpassion.
So I he just said, look, you'regoing to go to Chanel High
School I didn't know where itwas and you're going to catch
the bus over by St Henry's andyou're going to bus out to
(02:40):
Chanel.
And it was all boys, all white.
There was three black kids inthe class at that time and I in
the school at that time and Ithink he wanted to separate me
from where.
You know, me and my boys weregoing.
You know he, you know we were,we were trying to survive in the
(03:00):
neighborhood and there were,there were things that occurred
and I think he saw it and hejust wanted me to be in a
different environment and youknow, at the time I was pretty
angry.
It was a hard transitionbecause it was all white and I
was not Catholic and it wasreally challenging for me and
and sports became my outlet.
So it was, it was just rightafter the civil rights.
(03:24):
This was 1969.
So it was really a challengefor me, but it was the best
thing for me and I'm glad he didit.
Speaker 2 (03:33):
He talked about who were some of those coaches who
were kind of role models.
Speaker 1 (03:37):
Yeah, you know it's.
You know I had a in high school.
I had some really good coaches.
Joe Lynch, the basketball coachwas probably the best one you
know.
I remember I, you know I hit akid in the basketball game.
I punched him, oh Lord, and Joesat me down and you know we
established a great relationshipafter that, I'm sure.
(03:58):
It was my first years, you know,I was so frustrated with so
many different things and I letit out.
And so he, he taught, he taughtme a lot.
And then I, you know there wasanother one by the name of Kerry
Bulkman in football he was justgreat and Bob Spicer there were
so many high school coachesthat were impactful.
But you know, when I got tocollege it was the air procedure
(04:20):
and our head coach was prettyimpactful and the defensive line
coach, Joe Yanto, was reallyimpactful for me, so I was
blessed.
Speaker 4 (04:30):
Hey there Clark Kellogg here.
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yourself.
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Speaker 2 (05:06):
You know you played defensive in Notre Dame for four
years, one of the nationalchampionship team.
You know, like, can you talkabout?
You saw excellence.
Can you talk about whatexcellence?
Because these young I don'tthink these young guys really
understand what excellence is.
They think just you knowgetting a lot of likes and all
that kind of stuff.
Can you talk?
Can you take us inside?
(05:27):
Because you know we see NotreDame, we see all that and you
were there.
You talked about Air Parcet.
You dropped spames there.
You take us inside there.
What was the excellence?
Speaker 1 (05:36):
No, you know, it's funny.
When I went from high school toNotre Dame, we won the
championship in freshman year in1973, you know, beat Alabama in
the sugar bowl.
We were undefeated.
And so I walked into asituation where I saw excellence
at its best.
You know, I was weird.
There was a great tight end bythe name of David Casper.
(05:56):
He called him the coach.
He played for the Reds and hewas so committed to doing
everything that he could to bethe best tight end in the
country.
So I saw him work at it and sawhim start practice before
everybody else.
And so all those little thingsthat the those who were at the
(06:18):
top of the pyramid do to be thebest.
I witnessed it my first year.
Mike Thompson was a great freesafety.
He was always the first onewith the ghosts, with our tight
end, dave Casper, and then hewas the last one to be, and so I
just saw this excellence and itinspired me and inspired others
(06:38):
.
And also I had a roommate whowas, you know, the best high
school player during his timeand Ross Browner at war, in war
in Ohio, and I ended up playingfor the Bengals and he was
actually, I think he was thirdin the Heisman Trophy one year
and went to Lombardi at Lombardiand Ross and I would work out
(07:00):
all the time, and you know so weused to.
We come stay at our house inCleveland and we go in the
shaker heights and run, becausethey were the only ones that had
a polyurethane trap Right.
Speaker 2 (07:10):
Brown, yeah, brown, yeah, everybody else had a
center track.
Speaker 1 (07:14):
So so so so you know, I just saw, you know top of the
pyramids do athletes, you know,and that's in themselves to be
the best.
Speaker 2 (07:23):
You also had an experience as an assistant coach
.
Yeah, that was great.
I wanted to undisputed nationalchampionships.
Speaker 3 (07:29):
You had the player deal.
You had the coach deal.
Speaker 2 (07:32):
So how did that shift go from being a coach to
athletic administration?
Speaker 1 (07:35):
Yeah, you know well, I didn't aspire to be a coach.
My degree was in businessadministration.
Okay that Dan Devine at thetime asked me to stay on and be
a graduate assistant.
So I did that and then hepromoted me full-time after my
first semester and so I coachedfor four years.
And then they brought in JerryFaus and he didn't hire me back
(07:56):
and so I decided I would just godo what I wanted to do, which
was being business.
So I went to work for IBMselling computers in the early
80s to manufacturing anddistribution industry, and then
the defensive back coach atNotre Dame gentlemen, by the
name of Paul Schultz GodBlessing passed away.
But he called me one day andsaid hey, gene, he had become
(08:17):
the athletic director at EasternMichigan University.
And he called me and said Gene,I have this position, an
assistant AD position.
I need somebody with businessbackground.
I need somebody to understandfootball.
He had just hired a footballcoach and he wanted somebody
that he could trust.
So he taught me into it.
I love some money on the tableat IBM.
I didn't love it, but so I wentand he taught me the business
(08:42):
and two years later he retiredand ultimately they promoted me.
So I found my career path andI'm forever indebted to him for
the opportunity he gave me,everything he taught me, and you
know so I was blessed to havethat relationship.
Speaker 2 (08:58):
What would you say was one of those life lessons
that you learned from him thatyou still care on today?
Yeah, you know.
Speaker 1 (09:03):
I think for him he was interesting.
He was not the people personthat I am, he was the detailed
person, and so I learned to payattention to the details.
I was a salesman.
I was selling IBM computers inthe 80s, when everybody was
scared of computers, I thoughtthey were going to replace them,
and so he was the guy thattaught me around about details
(09:27):
and compliance and things ofthat nature, and so I became
really detailed oriented withhis teachings and you know we
talked football all the time, soyou know that was something
that you know.
I'm blessed that I had a leaderwho understood the sport and
because in the collegiatelandscape you know it's football
(09:50):
and basketball that drives it,and so he was really good in
that space as well.
Speaker 2 (09:56):
You know, in 1985, arizona State made history.
I heard Charles Harris as thefirst black African group at a
Power Five school, and then,eight years later, you were
hired as a second at Iowa State.
How was that being atrailblazer?
What was that experience?
Speaker 1 (10:13):
like it was.
You know it's funny for Charlesand I we're only two at a time.
So you know we go to meetingsand I, you know I knew that
certain people didn't want us inthe room and you knew that.
But there were people whoembraced us, but there were
times that Charles wouldn't beat a meeting and I'd be by
myself.
I was always on the loose.
(10:34):
But you know, my mom alwaystaught me to rise above
everything.
You just rise above it all.
And so you know, I foughtthrough challenges that were
people didn't want me in theroom or want me around or want
me a part of, didn't want me aspart of a working group.
But I was fortunate that I hadthree people that dragged me in
(10:58):
and took care of me.
One was Cedric Dempsey, who wasthe athlete director of Arizona
State.
He became the president of theNCAA.
Another one was Delos Dots.
He was the athlete director ofTexas.
But the main player was MichaelCleary from Cleveland.
He ran the National Associationof Collegiate Directors of
(11:18):
Athletics, which is still inCleveland on the west side, and
you know, he again, god blesshim.
He passed away, but he pulledme into committees and placed me
on committees and I think itwas because I was from Cleveland
, he was a Notre Dame fan, so Ithink all that stuff.
So he, those three, kind ofpulled me in and gave me
(11:40):
opportunities that I otherwisewould not have gotten, because
there were people who didn'twant me there.
It was the same for Charles.
Charles was older but it wasthe same for him.
Speaker 2 (11:52):
You've also said this , that I can't fail.
Yeah, you can't be.
I couldn't be the blackathletic director.
That didn't make it Right.
I always felt I didn't wantthat to be an excuse for not
having to hire another one.
So why was that so important toyou?
Speaker 1 (12:07):
Well, you know, at that time, you know we didn't
get opportunities.
You know, it was kind of likenot just in athletics, it was in
different industries, and so Ifelt that I needed to make sure
that I could demonstrate that wecould do the job.
People who were brown like mecould do the job, and I didn't
(12:27):
want to be the excuse for anyhiring authority to say, look,
he couldn't get it done.
You know, he couldn't get itdone at Eastern Michigan, he
couldn't get it done at IowaState or wherever.
So I didn't see it as a burden,I saw it as an opportunity, I
saw it as a challenge.
It drove me, you know, to tryand be the best that I could be,
be inquisitive and curious, andso I learned a lot fast, and
(12:51):
that was always a part of me wasjust to make sure that I didn't
fail so I could open the doorsfor others.
Speaker 2 (12:59):
And truly you did that.
You know you have quite a tree,Quite a legacy.
Speaker 1 (13:03):
Yeah, bless the yeah.
Speaker 2 (13:04):
People talk about Bill Ballet's hacking his
coaching tree or.
Prasail's Bill Prasail, hiscoaching tree.
But I'm looking at yours.
Yeah, I'm pretty blessed andI'm going to call the road.
I'm going to call the road now.
We've got Patrick Churn, firstAsian American AD at a par for
Washington State.
Yeah, you got Martin or Jaronspent three years at Boston
College, ucla.
(13:26):
Now he's returning to Big Tennext summer.
You got Ben J.
You got Heather man.
Yeah yeah, that was good.
Speaker 1 (13:33):
How does that make you feel?
It was great.
You know that was prettyintentional, tim.
So all four of them worked withme at Ohio State.
Oh, wow, and they were all my,that was my leadership team and
they all inspired to be athleticdirectors.
And then that's part of my job,and all the supervisors of our
(13:53):
department understand, as partof their job, to help people get
to where they want to be, andso we had a strategic plan to
help them be ADs.
I remember sending them to theNorth Carolina one year because
you had North Carolina, northCarolina State Rake Force, all
of that right there, and Icalled my colleagues at those
schools and said, hey, I'msending down a group and
(14:17):
hopefully you can spend timewith them and teach them what
you know and introduce them toother people in your department
so that they can learn fromother places, not just me.
And so Fluan Joe Constitue Leonfrom Oklahoma, a good friend
who's the athletic director,flew him in and did a session
with them and a couple others toteach them about how he became
(14:38):
an athletic director in hisleadership style.
So there were a number ofthings that I did to try and
give them the growth that theyneeded and that's always been a
part of me.
Scott Barnes, the athleticdirector at Oregon State, used
to be my associate at Iowa State.
He was my main fundraiser andhe aspired to be an AD, so I
(14:58):
taught him all.
When a visiting team footballteam comes, the athletic
director usually comes on Fridaynight.
Right right, go visit time withthem, go spend time with them.
When we go on the roll, makesure you, if you go with me,
just make sure you connect withthe athletic director at that
place and tell them you onlyneed 15 minutes of your time.
Next thing you know they'llgive you 45.
Speaker 4 (15:18):
Oh yeah, right, right so exactly right, but anyway.
Speaker 1 (15:21):
So it was important to me to use my opportunities to
give other people opportunities, and back in the day, in the
good old boy system, thereweren't a whole lot of us who
didn't make any calls for people.
So when I reached a level inthis career where I felt
comfortable, presidents wouldtake my call.
That's what I did.
(15:43):
That's big.
Speaker 2 (15:44):
yeah, I hear a lot in our conversation about
relationships.
Can you talk to young people oranybody who's listening to this
pocket?
Why are relationships soimportant?
Speaker 1 (15:55):
Yeah, you know I would tell young people, people
are the heart and soul of allthat matters in life Making sure
that you connect with people.
You know you yourself have tohave the highest values
integrity and respect for others, but people are the main source
(16:20):
in our society for us to besuccessful ourselves.
Do the eyes of others, you seeyourself, and if you don't
establish relationships withpeople and empower them to help
you see what you don't see yourbarn spots then you're not gonna
get better, and so it's soimportant for everyone in our
(16:43):
country to do everything theycan to establish relationships.
I tell people I have a purpose.
Every day I have a purpose, butI have a mission as well, and
my mission is to be missed.
Wow, that's deep.
You can't be missed if youdon't have great relationships.
(17:03):
You know, we all have people inour lives that you know we got
there, gone for whatever reason,because they behave in a
certain way.
But if you aspire to be missed,you treat people the right way.
You open up to people, youhopefully create an opportunity
for people to open up to you.
You be respectful, you behonest, you know it's.
(17:24):
You be nice.
It's so easy to be nice to them.
It's so easy to be nice.
It just drives me nuts whenpeople are so disrespectful or
just not nice.
I don't think it's easy, wow.
Speaker 2 (17:38):
Be missed.
I like that.
That's it, that's the mission.
That's the mission and it'sgood.
Be missed, be missed.
You know you are.
The word is that you fundraiseis one of your major gifts being
able to raise money.
Speaker 1 (17:51):
That's it.
That's it, that's what we do.
Speaker 2 (17:53):
And as we're sitting here thinking about your career
and listening to you talk aboutthat, IBM selling computers, so
you brought that to the deal andsince you've been in Ohio State
, you raise a lot of money fordifferent facilities.
Most of us have been privatefunding, so how have you been
able to do that?
Speaker 1 (18:10):
Well, it gets to what we were just talking about.
Talks about relationships, andso listening is a critical skill
in fundraising.
So a lot of times people don'tunderstand that you got to
really tune into what is aperson interested in.
You may go into a fundraisingcall and you have a particular
(18:32):
thing you're trying to sell, butif you don't ask the right
questions and listen, you mightunderstand that they're not
interested in what you'reselling, but they might be
interested in something else.
They might be trying to raisemoney for ability, but they
might be interested inscholarship.
So, asking good questions andbeing curious and being
(18:54):
respectful and doing a lot ofthat and listening, and then
99.9% of the time you're goingto hear a person's passion.
You really will, you'll learnit.
And then you, from afundraising perspective, you try
and guide that passion to afundraising opportunity.
(19:16):
I always tell my teammates indevelopment don't try and force
somebody to give to acapital-contained facility when
they're not really passionateabout it, because they'll regret
the gift.
You want them to cherish whatthey just did, and so anyway.
So it's listening, establishedrelationship listening or just
(19:39):
being curious.
Speaker 5 (19:40):
The team at the Financial Solutions Network is
proud to partner with Tim Brownand bring you this episode of Be
A Baller.
Our mission is to sharegenerously of our time, talent
and financial resources to helpour clients develop financial
plans and wealth managementstrategies that allow them to
live the lives they imagine,while connecting them with
experiences and people thatenhance their quality of life.
(20:03):
Fca is one of thoseorganizations, by helping young
men and women through thedevelopment of their personal
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The Financial Solutions Networkis an independently owned and
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We are a multi-generationalprofessional team of advisors
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(20:24):
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We will be honored to help youplan your financial journey.
Contact us at 614-505-3025 orvisit our website at tfsnnet.
Speaker 2 (21:05):
What is your leadership style?
Speaker 1 (21:08):
Tim, I don't have one style.
I use different styles kind ofseamlessly, in different measure
depending upon the businesssituation.
There's a great article, the1988 Harvard Business Review.
There's a gentleman by the nameof Dan Goldman.
He was going around the worlddoing a survey of the top 400
(21:28):
CEOs around the world who hadbeen very successful.
He was going out with theintent of trying to understand
what's the one leadership stylethat they employed.
He found out that they usemultiple leadership styles
depending upon what they'redealing with.
I remember reading that article.
(21:48):
It was only like three pagesbut he said the one thing they
all had in common was a highemotional intelligence.
Emotional intelligence, theywere very self-aware, they were
able to self-manage and theywere able to evaluate the social
environment, the group dynamics.
But you have to be self-awareand be able to self-manage in
(22:11):
order to evaluate everybody else.
There's an authoritative styleof leadership, the democratic
style, the coercive style, thepace setting style, the
affiliative style and there'sanother one I forgot.
But at the end of the day thosestyles for me just kind of
happen naturally and I learnedabout them.
(22:33):
And it is so funny as anathlete you do that anyway,
because as an athlete you learnthings in the group dynamics
that a lot of people don't learn.
You learn how to work withpeople from all walks of life.
You learn how to be vulnerable.
If you really pause and thinkabout the experiences that you
(22:56):
have as an athlete and you bringthem to the intellectual level,
you got a lot, and actually theleadership styles many of them
I learned as an athlete.
Speaker 2 (23:11):
It's good you know.
After 19 years you're retiringfrom the Ohio State University.
You have truly left theuniversity in a great space.
What are some of the thingsthat you're most proud of doing
that time and there's been someups and downs what?
Speaker 1 (23:24):
is the most proud of you know the winning always
matters.
You know the championships thatmany sports have won.
But I'll tell you, tell themthe I call it the light bulb
moments.
You know I've always had apassion for creating environment
where we develop the studentathlete holistically, not just
their athletic talent but makingsure they learn in the
(23:46):
classroom, they compete in theclassroom, they to develop as
people.
Many of them don't come in withdefined values.
You know they, they had.
They know families are part oftheir value system and many of
them gods are part of theirvalue system, but they don't.
The others they haven't reallydefined.
A lot of times with my freshmanI'll ask them in their first
(24:07):
session how many of you havelied before?
Obviously they always there.
And I said how many of you liedthe second time to cover up the
first lie?
You know Most of them raisedtheir hands and I asked them how
does that feel?
And it's so easy to just tellthe truth.
People are forgiving.
So you begin, you go down thesepaths of teaching them the
(24:27):
value of integrity and honestyand why that's so important,
along with your family and God.
So you go through those thingsand and my, my moments that I'm
most proud of is those lightbulb moments when I see a
behavior, behavior modificationoccur.
And you know that studentathlete flips the switch or In
(24:48):
the classroom, when they're notcommitted in the classroom, and
all of a sudden you see theindicators and all of a sudden
they flip the switch right andthey understand that they they
got to do better in theclassroom.
So I've seen a lot of that witha lot of our student athletes.
Or, you know, we had a gaywrestler, no, who struggled, and
I remember, remember when hecame out publicly and you know
(25:12):
it was, it was a big weight offof him and he did better overall
as a human being and better inthe classroom.
There's so many things thatthese young people deal with
today.
When we were coming out, youknow we just had to be resilient
.
We did, we really did, we did.
Nobody really cared, nobodycared, yeah, no, they didn't
(25:32):
care, and so you just had to getthrough it.
You know, remember I was gonnago home, I was gonna quit school
and Jo-Yan told the defensiveline coach caught me and you
know he set me out for a longtime and Told me.
You know, by the way, you know,when you drive home to
Cleveland, you know your dad'sgonna just make you turn around
and go home.
Come back here.
Speaker 2 (25:51):
So I'm like, yeah, you're right.
Speaker 4 (25:56):
Back in the day.
That's what we deal with.
Speaker 1 (25:57):
So today is a different world for our young
people.
So we have to go to where theyare and understand where they
are and then help them getthrough whatever they're dealing
with, and so those things I'mmost proud of is those white
bump moments.
Speaker 2 (26:12):
That's good.
You know.
This is a podcast about um, Alifelong legacy.
What is the legacy of changeman?
Speaker 1 (26:20):
You know, I don't know, tim, that's gotta be
defined by somebody that when Ileave and I I never, I never
think about things in that way.
I, I've always just been, I'vebeen trying to do my job and do
it the right way, and you know,who knows what somebody will
ultimately define as my legacy?
(26:41):
You know, I'm hopeful that, um,you know, we'll be around.
What we talked about earlier,uh, the people.
You know that I was respectful,that that I treated people the
right way, that I helped youngpeople be the best that they can
be.
That's one of my purposes is toWake up every day and make sure
(27:02):
we create environment for thattalented and gifted athlete
whose parents gave theirdaughter, a son, to us.
Yes, to help develop that, wecreated environment where
they're truly developing in somany different ways.
So, you know, a lot of peoplewould talk about the wins and
losses and the money raised andall that, but I, I hope there's
(27:22):
more around the student athletepart.
Speaker 2 (27:24):
That's good, you know .
As we come around the corner Ialways ask oh, I guess there's.
You know, people describe youas, uh, some call you mr Smith.
I've never been your husband,father, grandfather of seven,
eight, yeah yeah.
So the list.
You know how would you describeyourself?
Speaker 1 (27:49):
you know, um, I think I'm just trying to be as good a
person as I could be.
Um, you know, I'm driven, um, Iwant to be the best at anything
and everything we do, um, butI'm, I'm probably A low-key kind
of guy.
Uh, unless I have to, you know,go street on somebody.
(28:09):
It's just rare.
Um, but I, you know, I just Ijust have a lot of respect for
people and, um, I don't know, Ijust I just see myself more as,
uh, that kind of, you know, kindand gentle guy and what you see
is what you get.
You know, I'm pretty, prettyvanilla, you know, I'm not, I'm
(28:32):
not hard to read, so I woulddescribe myself that way I'm
tough, I have to be, you have tobe, I'm tough when I have to be
.
Um, I'm never the smartest guyin the room, never have the
highest IQ, but Pretty goodgoing good with people, oh yeah.
Speaker 2 (28:49):
Yeah, well, jean, I want to thank you for your time.
Thank you, great, greatinterview.
I got my light bulb moment Iwas thinking about my moment.
Speaker 1 (28:57):
Yeah, you always have them.
Speaker 2 (28:59):
I had a couple was talking to you.
It's been a blessing.
I want to thank the audience forlistening to a be a baller
podcast with your host, coachtim brown, and want to thank
jean smith for for enlighten usand encouraging us and, lastly,
want to thank you for yourservice.
Well, thank you for yourservice to the Ohio State
University other schools you'vebeen at, most important, I'll
thank you for making sure that,uh, the, the field is getting
(29:22):
level.
Thank you, the field is gettinglevel, that people have
opportunities.
You know if you're reachingback and pulling the next guy
and then you passing that on tothat guy, now that's right,
that's right, get the next oneby your example.
That's it, by your example.
So we want to thank you foryour time and.
I appreciate you Go box.
Speaker 3 (29:39):
If you enjoyed this episode, please share this
podcast with family and friends.
Be a baller podcast isavailable on all major podcast
stations.
Be sure to come back next weekas we continue to discuss on how
to build a lifelong legacy.
Until then, don't forget to bea baller.
This podcast was created bycoach tim brown and produced and
(30:01):
recorded by the videoproduction class of Worthington
christian high school.
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