April 11, 2024 • 37 mins
In this episode, Kyle and Dakota interview Dr. Jim Baugh, a pastor and missionary serving in East Africa and the Caribbean. They discuss the importance of evangelism and discipleship in ministry and how Global Training Network is equipping pastors in the emerging world. Dr. Baugh emphasizes the need for reproducible and contextualized training, as well as the importance of loving one another and working together as the body of Christ. He also highlights the universal understanding of God and the recognition of sin in every culture, making evangelism relevant and necessary.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:10):
Welcome to the Be Disciples podcast with your host
, kyle Morris, and Dakota Smith.
This is episode number 112 andwe have a special guest with us
today, dr Jim Baugh, or, as Irefer to you, pastor Jim,
because I grew up with you as mysenior pastor.
So welcome to the podcast forthe second time.
Thank you, it's good to be withyou guys.
Yeah, it's great to be able tosit down with you and to have
(00:33):
these conversations.
You know, being a kid andgrowing up alongside your son
and just being able to reflectback on time growing up in the
church Like you're a part of allof those memories because you
were the senior pastor there.
So whenever I preach orwhenever I give any illustration
of things of the past, likeyou're the pastor I'm talking
(00:56):
about and so they're all good.
So it's okay.
So I really just brag that Ican't sing at the end of my
sermons.
I can't break out in end of mysermons.
I can't break out in song likeyou can, so that's the only
thing I'm like.
I just can't do that, so you'regoing to have to find someone
else.
But, yeah, it's been a joy toreflect back on time growing up
(01:19):
in the church and then now beinga pastor.
So thank you for all thatyou've done as a pastor and what
you're doing now.
You're now with Global TrainingNetwork.
You've been traveling the worldto train pastors, to equip
people for the ministry, and soyou've been doing that for a
while.
How long have you been doingthat now?
Speaker 3 (01:37):
This is going on our 16th year, so yeah.
I was 12 when I started you're12, yes, good no, yeah, so I'm
actually 64 and, uh, and on therunway, you know, approaching 65
, which is, um, some guys go man, it's time for retirement.
No, it's time to get refired,because we're all in until jesus
(02:01):
comes for us.
So that's true.
Yeah, amen, yeah, so I'm goingto pass it off to dakota,
because the way we're going tountil Jesus comes for us.
Speaker 2 (02:04):
That's true, yeah, amen.
Speaker 1 (02:05):
Yeah.
So I'm going to pass it off toDakota because the way we're
going to kind of structure thisone, you're going to be coming
out to our church, to Auto BibleChurch here soon, and you're
going to be able to speak to ourcongregation, equip them in
evangelism, talk about missions,be able to preach those sort of
things.
But we want to start off theconversation with missions and
(02:30):
really dive into you know againwhat you get more of what you're
doing, but also why do we?
Speaker 2 (02:32):
go on missions in the first place.
Okay, so more more specifically, tell us what Global Training
Network is all about and tell ushow you're serving there
currently.
What are you guys doing?
Speaker 3 (02:41):
Well, global Training Network exists to equip and
encourage I mean those two, twowords are key Indigenous pastors
globally, in the, in theemerging world.
And the emerging world Peoplesay, well, what, what does that
mean?
We call it the third world.
You could call I mean there'snumerous ways to describe things
(03:03):
and then they get rebranded.
So the emerging world basicallyis, um, anything outside of
north america, um, northerneurope.
I mean it would be africa, thecontinent of africa, south
america, central america andasia, central America and Asia,
where God is moving incredibly.
(03:25):
I mean there's just people gooh well, you know the church,
what's happening, and we'regetting taken over.
Well, no, not true.
The church of our Lord Jesus isgrowing faster than any other
entity on the planet, than anyother entity on the planet.
Every day, 70,000 peopleconfess Christ as Lord in the
(03:49):
emerging world.
Every day in the NorthernHemisphere, 7,000 people confess
Christ.
So there's basically a 90-10ratio.
90% of what's happening globallyin evangelism and discipleship
is happening in the emergingworld.
So we are there to equippastors and leaders to
(04:16):
effectively help their people.
Train their people to reachtheir own people with the good
news.
Train their people to reachtheir own people with the good
news.
The mission model that I grew upwith and you guys probably are,
you know, are acquainted with,was simply that we, you know, we
go, we evangelize, we disciple.
(04:36):
We're the key to planning thechurch, and yet Jesus told us in
Matthew 28, we're to make whatDisciples.
So our ministry is that there'sa paradigm shift happening, and
that is is that we go to equipthese pastors and leaders so
that they can, in turn, reachtheir own people.
(04:58):
They already know the customs,they already know the culture,
they already know the language,and so we work in partnership as
a team, and God's doing someamazing things.
So that's what Global TrainingNetwork is and what it's doing
82 countries of the world we'reinvolved with right now and we
hope to be involved in 92countries of the world in the
(05:22):
next five years or so.
So those are harder countriesto get into.
Speaker 2 (05:27):
Yeah, what are some of the main countries?
If you're allowed to share thatyou've been working with
recently and what's maybe likean anecdote of a particular
pastor you know, if you were tojust, of how he's been affected
by GTN?
Speaker 3 (05:46):
Well, if 85% of them have a grand total of, let's say
, five to 10 minutes of training, I mean, would you go to a?
Would you go to a heart surgeonand say, hey, you're going to
do this surgery on me, how muchtraining have you had?
He goes well about five to 10minutes, but there's always you
(06:07):
too, you know.
Yeah, I mean, I'd be like Idon't think so.
So, yeah, so we've got, we'vegot guys doing, in essence,
spiritual heart surgery onpeople who have no training and
and that's that's evident, moreevident in certain parts of the
world than it is in others, inthe emerging world, but, um, on
(06:31):
a whole it's, it's about 85percent of pastors globally have
little or no training.
The guys that we're workingwith in east africa, um, yeah,
little or no training or whattheir training is is very rote
and rudimentary.
So some of the guys, you know,they don't even know Jesus and
(06:56):
so and I'm not saying that in aderogatory way, I'm just saying
that sometimes individuals areinvolved in ministry because
it's an occupational choice.
We have that in the UnitedStates and then find out you
don't know Jesus.
Speaker 2 (07:12):
All right, jim.
So let me ask you anotherquestion.
You're currently serving inEast Africa and the Caribbean.
Tell us what evangelism anddiscipleship looks like
specifically in that ministry?
Speaker 3 (07:24):
Yeah, thank you Well my desire was to train guys in
something that was and I'm goingto use this word, it sounds
very business-like but it'scalled something that's
franchisable, something that'sreproducible, and I know
whenever we use that wordfranchisable it becomes somewhat
(07:46):
mechanistic or non-relational,and that's not the case.
But I just wanted to havetraining that could be uniformly
multiplied.
So I was looking online andfound a guy that I had known
from Multnomah School of theBible back when I was working
(08:07):
with college students inPortland, oregon, and he had
developed.
He was with crew for I think,four years or a couple of terms
in Papua New Guinea and he had anumber of discipleship manuals
I think he had like three orfour and then he had some Bible
(08:28):
studies that I looked at and Ithought, you know, I could
utilize this and develop it intoa three-level discipleship
process in which everyindividual going through the
training would have to multiplythemselves three times before
they could go on to the nextlevel.
So we did the training, we didsmall breakout groups, so they
(08:52):
trained each other right, otjpractice and so forth, and then
they went out and they got theirthree.
Well, they did that come backfor level two, did that come
back for level three and whenthey graduated from level three,
they became master trainers.
So a master trainer could takethat curriculum and go anywhere
(09:15):
he wanted to and multiply thetraining with the same credulity
that I have, which you guys arelooking at going.
Okay, I know I know you, jim.
Okay, I know I know you, jim.
So, anyways, we did that.
I had another buddy from GTNhelping me, working with me on
it.
It's called MDM MakingDisciples, or Make Disciples
(09:36):
Multiply.
You can look it up online.
We have a little website and sothat began to just
exponentially grow.
I started it in Haiti duringCOVID and it grew and grew and
grew.
And then we were invited bycrew to integrate something
called tablet evangelism, whichis very effective in the African
(10:01):
culture Because it's you guysremember the Jesus film that
crusade put out in the, I think,mid seventies.
Speaker 2 (10:10):
Yep, well, they've redigitized it.
Speaker 3 (10:12):
Yeah, they've redigitized it and we've put it,
put it on tablets so you can.
I mean, you guys can get theapp on your phone and you
utilize it.
But it's the Jesus film.
And then there are let's see,there are 60 lessons on
(10:33):
discipleship using DiscoveryBible questions that you can
utilize to help your disciplesgrow after they meet Jesus.
But we also integrated thatdiscipleship process that I've
been talking about into thefollow-up of people who meet
(10:55):
Jesus as a result of watchingthe Jesus film, and so, as a
result of that, we have over 10areas in Rwanda that are ready
to start new churches.
One of the master trainers hejust sent me a note he's going
(11:17):
to for level three because he'salready gone level one, level
two.
He's going back to Kenya,uganda, tanzania and Burundi to
continue training on level three.
It's multiplied to those othercountries.
In Haiti, the same thing tookplace, in that this discipleship
(11:40):
process continued to grow, evenover into Dominican Republic.
But, as we know, what'shappened in Haiti now?
That multiplication process hasstopped going into the DR
because they've closed theborder.
You guys know that They'veclosed the border between Haiti
and Dominican Republic.
So, but this couple of themaster trainers who had to leave
(12:06):
Port Prince over machine gunfire.
They lost everything.
Guys.
I mean consider that that youguys are sitting, we're sitting
in our homes, you're sitting inthe church.
If some guys came with AKs andthey just said you know, get out
or we'll kill you, they had toleave their churches.
(12:27):
They had to leave everybodyscattered like a big dispersion.
And so he's up in the mountainsabout 50 miles away from
Port-au-Prince and he's startingnew churches.
Now he just said I have six newindividuals who went through
level one.
We're going through level two.
(12:47):
Actually that was a result oftheir evangelism outreach and so
he told me he goes.
I've got four areas that arechurch plants, new Christians,
new churches, and they'remeeting under a mangrove or
they're meeting under bananatrees or they're meeting under
(13:09):
something, but God is justmoving very powerfully in
multiplication in that way.
Speaker 1 (13:16):
Yeah, I'm.
Jack, I'm excited, yeah, andisn't that how it works in the
book of Acts?
Isn't that what we see?
Speaker 2 (13:23):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (13:23):
Persecution, dispersion, more churches.
Speaker 3 (13:26):
That's awesome.
That's an excellent point, kyle.
So it's like you know the word.
The word persecution is I can'tremember the exact the Greek
word for it but but the literalmeaning of it is the crushing of
a grape.
And you guys know you get up inthe middle of night.
You know I'm kind of hungry.
Let's see, you know, if we canhave a little snacky, wacky and
(13:50):
uh.
Well you step on a grape, one ofthe kids left on the kitchen
floor and what happens?
It's like oh, what did I stepon?
Well, you look, the grapessmash the juices everywhere.
And that's the idea, uh, thatyou, you step on a believer and,
in essence, you go to otherplaces.
(14:10):
Yeah, and that's how God works.
In the pain of persecution,there's the process of
multiplication.
Speaker 2 (14:18):
I think what's encouraging about what you're
saying is the initiative tochurch plant.
I think, America, we've made itway too difficult in that you
have to have, you know, all ofthese commodities before a
church can be planted and when.
So when all of those things arestripped away and you remember
what a church plant is.
It's a collection of believersthat come, that assembled
(14:41):
together for the glory of theLord and dwelt by the Holy
Spirit, this becomesreproducible, multiplying in
other areas where you have noneed for other comfort.
So out of a Bible, we'retalking about how we can
reproduce Bible-believingchurches here in this town, but
the goal ultimately is to reachthe nations as well.
(15:03):
So that's incredible, Jim.
Speaker 3 (15:06):
Yeah, so it is exciting.
One of the one of thechallenges we've had in Rwanda
and it's a product of thegenocide that happened in the
nineties is that once a groupgrows to a certain level let's
say five people or 10 peoplemeeting in someone's home then
(15:31):
they literally have to dosomething facility-wise, because
the local government is notexcited about that.
They don't know what are thesepeople meeting for, what are
these rabble-rousers?
And they'll have individualswho will report you go, well,
it's communism, well, no, it's aresult of upheaval within the
(15:57):
context of a culture.
And so the local government issaying we don't want to have
that happen again.
So that's one of our challenges.
When, know, when, I thoughtabout the potential and the
fruit of training people toevangelize?
You know, culturally,contextually, we have to
(16:19):
evangelize in relationship tothe context of our culture.
But you do not change themessage.
That's right.
In fact, I got a book comingout.
I want to tell you guys aboutit.
It's called Good News Going Bad, and it's about something
called the insider movement, amovement that exists to somehow
(16:41):
some way contextualize thegospel to reach Muslims more
effectively.
Well, yeah, I believe incontextualization, but we can't
contextualize to the place thatyou leave behind the content.
Right, yeah, you change thedoctrine.
Yeah, that's what's happening,I mean, in the emerging church.
You say, well, let's just beeverything to everybody.
(17:06):
And Paul says I want to beeverything to all men.
To the Jew I want to be Jew.
To the Greek, I want to be aGreek.
But one thing Paul never saysis I became a pagan to reach the
pagans, right.
Speaker 2 (17:19):
So we were just talking about this yesterday on
another podcast episode and justwhat actually the insider
movement is.
And you cannot place cultureabove doctrine.
You can't sacrifice doctrine onthe altar of culture.
Speaker 3 (17:36):
No, you can't, because it's.
Speaker 2 (17:37):
Contextualization has limits.
Speaker 3 (17:39):
The Word of God is what transforms culture.
It's not the other way around.
I've had guys in training wherethey go oh, we can't.
Let's say, let's say Matthew 18, you know a leader's in sin,
what are we to do?
Well, we're to go to him like afather, confront, you know in
(18:00):
grace, and so forth, and if helistens, great.
You know, repents awesome.
If not, then you take anotherright.
So that's the process.
You know, repents awesome.
If not, then you take anotherright.
So that's the process.
You don't get on Facebook andgo hey, let me tell you about
this guy.
Speaker 2 (18:15):
Right.
Speaker 3 (18:16):
Which that happens plenty, it happens.
And so the guys in SoutheastAsia or even in Africa, we can't
excuse me, we can't do that.
Why can't you do that?
Well, it's completely contraryto our culture.
And my response is it'scompletely contrary to my
culture.
Yeah, no, nobody.
(18:37):
Nobody wakes up in the morningand goes let's see who I can
confront today.
Right, man, I loveconfrontation, but it's still
biblical.
I love confrontation, but it'sstill biblical.
Yeah, but it's biblical, but wealways what speak the truth in
love.
Yeah, so there are many aspectsof evangelism and discipleship
that are countercultural, but itactually addresses the need of
(19:04):
the human heart, and this issomething just to share.
A word of encouragement witheveryone is that everyone, in
every place, with all kinds offaces, they all face the same
issue.
Number one there is a universalunderstanding that there is a
God.
Amen, you know.
(19:26):
I mean talk to the guys who arein in Ukraine right now, you
know, who are formerly atheistsand they've got shells going
over their head.
They're thinking God.
If you're there, you know so.
So it it might be that, um,they're, they're not atheists,
they may be agnostic, going manif there is a God.
It's kind of like the old adagethat atheists say there is no
(19:52):
God and I hate him very much.
Right, which is completelyinconsistent.
But the agnostic would say well, I'm not, you know.
I know there's something, butI'm not sure who it is.
So all around the world there'sthis universal.
I think, as the word says, inthe innermost being of our
(20:14):
hearts we know there is a God.
The second universal truth isthe recognition of sin, and so
the big question is what am Igoing to do with my sin?
How can my sin be paid for?
And God answers that questionNothing but the blood of Jesus.
Speaker 2 (20:37):
Religion can't answer it.
Speaker 3 (20:38):
Our morality can't answer it, Self-realization
can't answer it.
Self-realization can't answerit.
So those individuals that we gooh, I don't know.
Is there anybody out there whoreally wants to hear the gospel
anymore?
Yes, because they all have aninward struggle with things that
they know they're doing thatthey shouldn't be doing, and
they know that they're guilty ofsomething the Bible calls sin.
(21:03):
Paul writes about it in Romans.
It says you know, they know itin their what?
In their hearts?
Yep their conscience theirwitness.
(21:24):
Absolutely.
So that's that encouragement tosay you know, god is working in
the hearts and minds of peoplebefore we even speak to them and
that's an encouragement forthose who go.
Is there anybody out there whoreally wants to hear this
message?
Absolutely, god is preparingthem to hear from you.
Amen.
Speaker 1 (21:38):
Amen.
Well, let's transition a little.
Let's take some of what you'vesaid.
Let's say, if you could talk toJim Baugh entering into Mesa
Baptist so many years ago, right, you could talk to him and say,
hey, I'm now traveling theworld, I'm doing all these
things to spread the gospel, toequip people.
But you, young Jim, I want youto know, as a young pastor,
(22:03):
these are some things that youshould be looking out for.
These are some things that youshould be putting into your
philosophy of ministry, intowhat you're doing Now.
I grew up with you preachingthe word of God and that has
laid a foundation for my lifeand for my family's life, and
that's that's amazing.
So we know that that wasfoundational to your ministry
preaching the word of God.
But but beyond that, evangelism, discipleship, what would you
(22:27):
tell a young Jim Ball?
Speaker 3 (22:29):
Well, yeah, there's a number of things, that's a good
question.
Yeah, very good question andwe'll handle that next week.
No, I think you know Actschapter 2, is always the
template for me in ministry,even though I could say I did
(22:53):
these things effectively Thankyou, holy Spirit and I did these
other things ineffectively.
Aspects of what some call, youknow, the mark of a healthy
(23:15):
church is prayer, worship.
That's what they did.
The teaching of the apostles'doctrine, which I count as the
whole counsel of God, the, youknow the word is central,
worship is central, thefellowship and equipping of the
saints.
You'll notice that they didn'tjust have one.
(23:36):
You know one big event and thenone big midweek event.
I mean they were meeting inhomes, they, they, uh, they had
evidently some, some uh,impactful leadership development
so that in those home meetings,those home gatherings, you
didn't have people going off,you know, on some doctrinal
(24:01):
weird tangent, although thathappened because 90% of the new
Testament is written to combatdoctrinal error.
So you have the multiplicationof leadership, the training and
equipping of leaders, and thenyou have the impact of that kind
(24:21):
of spiritual health in thecommunity.
The Bible says that every daythe Lord was adding to the
church, they had some impactwithin the context of their
culture by the love that theyhad for one another, first right
, and then the love that theyhad for their community.
You know, jesus said this inJohn 13,.
(24:43):
By this will all people knowthat you are my disciples if you
love one another.
And it's interesting to me thatone of the greatest apologetics
or defenses of the faith is notnecessarily our ability to
articulate you know, the fourpoints of the gospel, but our
ability to articulate anddemonstrate our love for each
(25:06):
other.
And so you know, those are allchallenges.
I mean, when I began as apastor, you know I was 32 years
old.
Everybody was, ah, you're soyoung, and so forth.
But I really attempted todevelop those four aspects of
(25:27):
ministry, and leadershipdevelopment was one of those key
issues.
The other thing is is when youknow every church is going
through, I would say you knowthere's a transitional aspect in
ministry.
I went into a church that was.
It was, you know, an old church.
(25:49):
I mean it'd been around for Idon't know how many years 30
years or 40 years prior to mycoming.
And so there's this aspect ofchange that younger pastors want
that overlooks, I mean, rightnow, I think.
(26:11):
I think it's, I think it's.
It's a bad thing that they comein going.
We don't want these people.
We want these people.
We want this demographic.
We don't want this demographic.
And yet God says these are thesheep I've given you.
So, so don't overlook.
Don't overlook the, the, theolder folks and the traditions
(26:37):
and so forth that they're set in.
I mean, teach them out of it,and it's not an easy process.
Yeah, because you got.
You know the young bucks whocome in and go.
Speaker 1 (26:49):
oh, we hate these old people you know, get rid of
these old people, and it's theold people, you know.
Speaker 3 (26:54):
They don't stand, they don't raise their hands,
they don't, and I'm like they're.
They're part of the flock thatGod has given us and I have a
responsibility, not to beat thesheep, but to lead the sheep and
to care for them, and sometimesthat process is not as easy and
(27:16):
quick as it is when you'restarting a brand new work.
Speaker 2 (27:22):
Yeah, no, that's a great word.
That's a great word.
Speaker 3 (27:27):
And I've heard pastors go we don't want this
demographic.
And I'm like, yeah, but that'sthe demographic.
Those are the sheep that Godhas given you.
What's the first thing thatJesus said to Peter when he
confronted him about his failure?
He said Peter, do you love me?
Right, then feed my sheep.
(27:48):
Feed my sheep.
Speaker 2 (27:50):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (27:51):
He didn't go hey, forget those and and look for
somebody who's 25.
Yeah, he said, feed my sheep,train and equip my sheep.
So, um, that was one of thebiggest challenges that that I
faced.
Um was having churches, thatand and also the challenge of
comparison.
Um, that you know well why.
(28:14):
You know why are I mean we grew, I mean God bless the church.
I think I was our church inTillamook was bigger than the
one that than Mesa when I came,and I know Mesa had gone through
all kinds of stuff, had quite ahistory of of.
You know, we talk aboutchurches multiplying and some
(28:35):
churches are better at divisionthan they are at multiplication,
right, that's an accurate word.
We've gone through that, but Godblessed the work and it
certainly wasn't as big as someof the other churches that were
going on around it.
But because it was a differentdemographic, it was a different
(28:58):
ministry, and one of thechallenges another challenges I
faced was that challenge ofcomparison.
And God does not call me tocompete with other churches.
God calls me to complete theministry with other churches and
(29:19):
see how we together can reach acommunity that's lost and
without Christ.
So that's easier done or saidthan done, because sometimes,
guys, you know they're, they're,they're not kingdom minded, and
I mean they're kingdom mindedbut it's basically their own
(29:40):
kingdom instead of God's.
And so I remember the story ofone pastor.
You know, a guy came to me andgoes hey, we're not growing like
such and such a church andwe're not doing that.
How come we're not this?
How come we're not?
And the pastor said you knowsomething?
I'm just so thankful for theirgrowth and we need to come
(30:03):
alongside them and pray thatthey would continue to grow,
that God might bless them andbless us in the process, that
together we can reach thiscommunity for Jesus.
And that was the heartbeat thatI wanted to have and I
challenge you guys to have thesame one, not of competition but
of completion.
Speaker 2 (30:24):
Yeah, I think I resonate with you.
Know this is my fifth year inthe pastorate and you know
there's always the year of thehoneymoon stage and then year
two and year three.
There was nothing, was ever tothe point of division, but the
congregation here was about 70or so, and then we saw some
(30:46):
immediate growth and it washaving to shepherd our people
through that change that theyhad never seen before, and so I
resonate with that.
But I'm also grateful for yourthought on that.
These are the people God hasgiven you, and so they're to be
involved in that process to makedisciples, and I think that's
the biggest heartbeat, is ourdirective, is the great
(31:10):
commission there?
are people that need to bereached.
You have the capability to doso.
Let's get going.
Speaker 3 (31:19):
Yeah, absolutely.
And you know one.
I've had numerous conversationswith pastors and leaders and
I'll never forget one guy going,you know, and they were in I'll
call it a transitional churchsaying, you know, this is the
(31:39):
demographic that I want.
I don't want these old people.
And I said, look, you know,you've been called to shepherd
the sheep, the older people.
They don't have the abilitiesto do this or that or the other
thing, but there are certaingiftings and abilities that
they've been given and as ashepherd, you're called to
(32:02):
direct them in their strengthsand to equip them in their
weaknesses so that they canfulfill the great commission in
the way that God is empoweringthem to do it.
And my 92-year-old motherempowering them to do it.
And my 92 year old mother, youknow, is not going to be quote
unquote bringing in the sheaves.
You know, I mean a lot of herrelational connections have
(32:25):
already gone home to be with theLord.
But I'll tell you one thingthat she will do is she will
pray and she will supportfinancially and if you share the
vision with those individualswho make up the body, right, I
mean, we're not.
That was the analogy that Paulgave to the church in Corinth.
(32:46):
He said you know, we're not alleyeballs.
You know what would it looklike?
I'll never forget being inseminary and my professor saying
what would it be like if abunch of eyeballs came rolling
out of their cars on Sundaymorning to the church service?
He said we're a body and everybody has different parts that,
(33:08):
working together, accomplish thegoal.
So in that ministry, as youngpastors, consider every person
that God has given to you asprecious, and they are sheep
that need to be shepherded andthey are individuals that need
(33:28):
to be equipped and encouraged intheir walk with God so that
they can fulfill the greatcommission and make disciples in
the way that God has giftedthem to do it Right.
Speaker 2 (33:41):
We receive that.
Amen, amen, amen.
So let's close it up with thislast piece.
When you come out here in a fewweeks, in April, we're going to
be having an OBC Academy andwe've done OBC Academies before.
We have, of course, home groups, but then these are our
(34:01):
periodic, or you could say likeour quarterly trainings.
We've been doing hermeneuticsfor the last five or six
sessions or so that we've doneit.
This will be the first one thatwe're going to be doing in the
realm of evangelism.
We're going to tackle both thetheological spectrum and the
practical areas of how do weactually get out with our
(34:24):
neighbors and share.
So you're going to be speakingspecifically in that first hour
from the theological andpractical side.
Theological and practical side.
If you were to just give ourpeople a little appetizer, if
you were to give our people justenough of a primer to get ready
for our next OVC Academy, whatdo you have in store for them?
(34:44):
Well, I'm looking forward to bethere.
Speaker 3 (34:47):
So yeah, I'm excited about it.
I think that vantage point ofGod's heartbeat has always been
to reach others.
I mean, you know, the Bibletells us in the New Testament
God is not willing that anyshould perish, and so oftentimes
we think that the ministry ofevangelism and discipleship came
(35:11):
, I mean primarily through thecall of Jesus, which I affirm
Amen, or perhaps even throughPaul.
I mean Paul modeled that.
But actually it's the heartbeatof God from the book of Genesis
all the way through maps.
You know, revelation I mean thewhole of the Bible is God's
(35:34):
heartbeat to reach the nationswith the good news of Jesus.
Speaker 2 (35:39):
Amen.
We're looking forward to havingyou out here, brother.
You have been a major influencein the both of our lives and
our congregation, indirectly,has benefited from your
faithfulness over the years.
So we're looking forward tohaving you with our elder team,
having you here at the OVCAcademy, having you in the
pulpit preaching, so we'relooking forward to having you
(36:01):
out and, brother, it was greatspending time with you today.
Thank you, thank you.
Welcome to the Be Disciples podcast with your host
, kyle Morris, and Dakota Smith.
This is episode number 112 andwe have a special guest with us
today, dr Jim Baugh, or, as Irefer to you, pastor Jim,
because I grew up with you as mysenior pastor.
So welcome to the podcast forthe second time.
Thank you, it's good to be withyou guys.
Yeah, it's great to be able tosit down with you and to have
(00:33):
these conversations.
You know, being a kid andgrowing up alongside your son
and just being able to reflectback on time growing up in the
church Like you're a part of allof those memories because you
were the senior pastor there.
So whenever I preach orwhenever I give any illustration
of things of the past, likeyou're the pastor I'm talking
(00:56):
about and so they're all good.
So it's okay.
So I really just brag that Ican't sing at the end of my
sermons.
I can't break out in end of mysermons.
I can't break out in song likeyou can, so that's the only
thing I'm like.
I just can't do that, so you'regoing to have to find someone
else.
But, yeah, it's been a joy toreflect back on time growing up
(01:19):
in the church and then now beinga pastor.
So thank you for all thatyou've done as a pastor and what
you're doing now.
You're now with Global TrainingNetwork.
You've been traveling the worldto train pastors, to equip
people for the ministry, and soyou've been doing that for a
while.
How long have you been doingthat now?
Speaker 3 (01:37):
This is going on our 16th year, so yeah.
I was 12 when I started you're12, yes, good no, yeah, so I'm
actually 64 and, uh, and on therunway, you know, approaching 65
, which is, um, some guys go man, it's time for retirement.
No, it's time to get refired,because we're all in until jesus
(02:01):
comes for us.
So that's true.
Yeah, amen, yeah, so I'm goingto pass it off to dakota,
because the way we're going tountil Jesus comes for us.
Speaker 2 (02:04):
That's true, yeah, amen.
Speaker 1 (02:05):
Yeah.
So I'm going to pass it off toDakota because the way we're
going to kind of structure thisone, you're going to be coming
out to our church, to Auto BibleChurch here soon, and you're
going to be able to speak to ourcongregation, equip them in
evangelism, talk about missions,be able to preach those sort of
things.
But we want to start off theconversation with missions and
(02:30):
really dive into you know againwhat you get more of what you're
doing, but also why do we?
Speaker 2 (02:32):
go on missions in the first place.
Okay, so more more specifically, tell us what Global Training
Network is all about and tell ushow you're serving there
currently.
What are you guys doing?
Speaker 3 (02:41):
Well, global Training Network exists to equip and
encourage I mean those two, twowords are key Indigenous pastors
globally, in the, in theemerging world.
And the emerging world Peoplesay, well, what, what does that
mean?
We call it the third world.
You could call I mean there'snumerous ways to describe things
(03:03):
and then they get rebranded.
So the emerging world basicallyis, um, anything outside of
north america, um, northerneurope.
I mean it would be africa, thecontinent of africa, south
america, central america andasia, central America and Asia,
where God is moving incredibly.
(03:25):
I mean there's just people gooh well, you know the church,
what's happening, and we'regetting taken over.
Well, no, not true.
The church of our Lord Jesus isgrowing faster than any other
entity on the planet, than anyother entity on the planet.
Every day, 70,000 peopleconfess Christ as Lord in the
(03:49):
emerging world.
Every day in the NorthernHemisphere, 7,000 people confess
Christ.
So there's basically a 90-10ratio.
90% of what's happening globallyin evangelism and discipleship
is happening in the emergingworld.
So we are there to equippastors and leaders to
(04:16):
effectively help their people.
Train their people to reachtheir own people with the good
news.
Train their people to reachtheir own people with the good
news.
The mission model that I grew upwith and you guys probably are,
you know, are acquainted with,was simply that we, you know, we
go, we evangelize, we disciple.
(04:36):
We're the key to planning thechurch, and yet Jesus told us in
Matthew 28, we're to make whatDisciples.
So our ministry is that there'sa paradigm shift happening, and
that is is that we go to equipthese pastors and leaders so
that they can, in turn, reachtheir own people.
(04:58):
They already know the customs,they already know the culture,
they already know the language,and so we work in partnership as
a team, and God's doing someamazing things.
So that's what Global TrainingNetwork is and what it's doing
82 countries of the world we'reinvolved with right now and we
hope to be involved in 92countries of the world in the
(05:22):
next five years or so.
So those are harder countriesto get into.
Speaker 2 (05:27):
Yeah, what are some of the main countries?
If you're allowed to share thatyou've been working with
recently and what's maybe likean anecdote of a particular
pastor you know, if you were tojust, of how he's been affected
by GTN?
Speaker 3 (05:46):
Well, if 85% of them have a grand total of, let's say
, five to 10 minutes of training, I mean, would you go to a?
Would you go to a heart surgeonand say, hey, you're going to
do this surgery on me, how muchtraining have you had?
He goes well about five to 10minutes, but there's always you
(06:07):
too, you know.
Yeah, I mean, I'd be like Idon't think so.
So, yeah, so we've got, we'vegot guys doing, in essence,
spiritual heart surgery onpeople who have no training and
and that's that's evident, moreevident in certain parts of the
world than it is in others, inthe emerging world, but, um, on
(06:31):
a whole it's, it's about 85percent of pastors globally have
little or no training.
The guys that we're workingwith in east africa, um, yeah,
little or no training or whattheir training is is very rote
and rudimentary.
So some of the guys, you know,they don't even know Jesus and
(06:56):
so and I'm not saying that in aderogatory way, I'm just saying
that sometimes individuals areinvolved in ministry because
it's an occupational choice.
We have that in the UnitedStates and then find out you
don't know Jesus.
Speaker 2 (07:12):
All right, jim.
So let me ask you anotherquestion.
You're currently serving inEast Africa and the Caribbean.
Tell us what evangelism anddiscipleship looks like
specifically in that ministry?
Speaker 3 (07:24):
Yeah, thank you Well my desire was to train guys in
something that was and I'm goingto use this word, it sounds
very business-like but it'scalled something that's
franchisable, something that'sreproducible, and I know
whenever we use that wordfranchisable it becomes somewhat
(07:46):
mechanistic or non-relational,and that's not the case.
But I just wanted to havetraining that could be uniformly
multiplied.
So I was looking online andfound a guy that I had known
from Multnomah School of theBible back when I was working
(08:07):
with college students inPortland, oregon, and he had
developed.
He was with crew for I think,four years or a couple of terms
in Papua New Guinea and he had anumber of discipleship manuals
I think he had like three orfour and then he had some Bible
(08:28):
studies that I looked at and Ithought, you know, I could
utilize this and develop it intoa three-level discipleship
process in which everyindividual going through the
training would have to multiplythemselves three times before
they could go on to the nextlevel.
So we did the training, we didsmall breakout groups, so they
(08:52):
trained each other right, otjpractice and so forth, and then
they went out and they got theirthree.
Well, they did that come backfor level two, did that come
back for level three and whenthey graduated from level three,
they became master trainers.
So a master trainer could takethat curriculum and go anywhere
(09:15):
he wanted to and multiply thetraining with the same credulity
that I have, which you guys arelooking at going.
Okay, I know I know you, jim.
Okay, I know I know you, jim.
So, anyways, we did that.
I had another buddy from GTNhelping me, working with me on
it.
It's called MDM MakingDisciples, or Make Disciples
(09:36):
Multiply.
You can look it up online.
We have a little website and sothat began to just
exponentially grow.
I started it in Haiti duringCOVID and it grew and grew and
grew.
And then we were invited bycrew to integrate something
called tablet evangelism, whichis very effective in the African
(10:01):
culture Because it's you guysremember the Jesus film that
crusade put out in the, I think,mid seventies.
Speaker 2 (10:10):
Yep, well, they've redigitized it.
Speaker 3 (10:12):
Yeah, they've redigitized it and we've put it,
put it on tablets so you can.
I mean, you guys can get theapp on your phone and you
utilize it.
But it's the Jesus film.
And then there are let's see,there are 60 lessons on
(10:33):
discipleship using DiscoveryBible questions that you can
utilize to help your disciplesgrow after they meet Jesus.
But we also integrated thatdiscipleship process that I've
been talking about into thefollow-up of people who meet
(10:55):
Jesus as a result of watchingthe Jesus film, and so, as a
result of that, we have over 10areas in Rwanda that are ready
to start new churches.
One of the master trainers hejust sent me a note he's going
(11:17):
to for level three because he'salready gone level one, level
two.
He's going back to Kenya,uganda, tanzania and Burundi to
continue training on level three.
It's multiplied to those othercountries.
In Haiti, the same thing tookplace, in that this discipleship
(11:40):
process continued to grow, evenover into Dominican Republic.
But, as we know, what'shappened in Haiti now?
That multiplication process hasstopped going into the DR
because they've closed theborder.
You guys know that They'veclosed the border between Haiti
and Dominican Republic.
So, but this couple of themaster trainers who had to leave
(12:06):
Port Prince over machine gunfire.
They lost everything.
Guys.
I mean consider that that youguys are sitting, we're sitting
in our homes, you're sitting inthe church.
If some guys came with AKs andthey just said you know, get out
or we'll kill you, they had toleave their churches.
(12:27):
They had to leave everybodyscattered like a big dispersion.
And so he's up in the mountainsabout 50 miles away from
Port-au-Prince and he's startingnew churches.
Now he just said I have six newindividuals who went through
level one.
We're going through level two.
(12:47):
Actually that was a result oftheir evangelism outreach and so
he told me he goes.
I've got four areas that arechurch plants, new Christians,
new churches, and they'remeeting under a mangrove or
they're meeting under bananatrees or they're meeting under
(13:09):
something, but God is justmoving very powerfully in
multiplication in that way.
Speaker 1 (13:16):
Yeah, I'm.
Jack, I'm excited, yeah, andisn't that how it works in the
book of Acts?
Isn't that what we see?
Speaker 2 (13:23):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (13:23):
Persecution, dispersion, more churches.
Speaker 3 (13:26):
That's awesome.
That's an excellent point, kyle.
So it's like you know the word.
The word persecution is I can'tremember the exact the Greek
word for it but but the literalmeaning of it is the crushing of
a grape.
And you guys know you get up inthe middle of night.
You know I'm kind of hungry.
Let's see, you know, if we canhave a little snacky, wacky and
(13:50):
uh.
Well you step on a grape, one ofthe kids left on the kitchen
floor and what happens?
It's like oh, what did I stepon?
Well, you look, the grapessmash the juices everywhere.
And that's the idea, uh, thatyou, you step on a believer and,
in essence, you go to otherplaces.
(14:10):
Yeah, and that's how God works.
In the pain of persecution,there's the process of
multiplication.
Speaker 2 (14:18):
I think what's encouraging about what you're
saying is the initiative tochurch plant.
I think, America, we've made itway too difficult in that you
have to have, you know, all ofthese commodities before a
church can be planted and when.
So when all of those things arestripped away and you remember
what a church plant is.
It's a collection of believersthat come, that assembled
(14:41):
together for the glory of theLord and dwelt by the Holy
Spirit, this becomesreproducible, multiplying in
other areas where you have noneed for other comfort.
So out of a Bible, we'retalking about how we can
reproduce Bible-believingchurches here in this town, but
the goal ultimately is to reachthe nations as well.
(15:03):
So that's incredible, Jim.
Speaker 3 (15:06):
Yeah, so it is exciting.
One of the one of thechallenges we've had in Rwanda
and it's a product of thegenocide that happened in the
nineties is that once a groupgrows to a certain level let's
say five people or 10 peoplemeeting in someone's home then
(15:31):
they literally have to dosomething facility-wise, because
the local government is notexcited about that.
They don't know what are thesepeople meeting for, what are
these rabble-rousers?
And they'll have individualswho will report you go, well,
it's communism, well, no, it's aresult of upheaval within the
(15:57):
context of a culture.
And so the local government issaying we don't want to have
that happen again.
So that's one of our challenges.
When, know, when, I thoughtabout the potential and the
fruit of training people toevangelize?
You know, culturally,contextually, we have to
(16:19):
evangelize in relationship tothe context of our culture.
But you do not change themessage.
That's right.
In fact, I got a book comingout.
I want to tell you guys aboutit.
It's called Good News Going Bad, and it's about something
called the insider movement, amovement that exists to somehow
(16:41):
some way contextualize thegospel to reach Muslims more
effectively.
Well, yeah, I believe incontextualization, but we can't
contextualize to the place thatyou leave behind the content.
Right, yeah, you change thedoctrine.
Yeah, that's what's happening,I mean, in the emerging church.
You say, well, let's just beeverything to everybody.
(17:06):
And Paul says I want to beeverything to all men.
To the Jew I want to be Jew.
To the Greek, I want to be aGreek.
But one thing Paul never saysis I became a pagan to reach the
pagans, right.
Speaker 2 (17:19):
So we were just talking about this yesterday on
another podcast episode and justwhat actually the insider
movement is.
And you cannot place cultureabove doctrine.
You can't sacrifice doctrine onthe altar of culture.
Speaker 3 (17:36):
No, you can't, because it's.
Speaker 2 (17:37):
Contextualization has limits.
Speaker 3 (17:39):
The Word of God is what transforms culture.
It's not the other way around.
I've had guys in training wherethey go oh, we can't.
Let's say, let's say Matthew 18, you know a leader's in sin,
what are we to do?
Well, we're to go to him like afather, confront, you know in
(18:00):
grace, and so forth, and if helistens, great.
You know, repents awesome.
If not, then you take anotherright.
So that's the process.
You know, repents awesome.
If not, then you take anotherright.
So that's the process.
You don't get on Facebook andgo hey, let me tell you about
this guy.
Speaker 2 (18:15):
Right.
Speaker 3 (18:16):
Which that happens plenty, it happens.
And so the guys in SoutheastAsia or even in Africa, we can't
excuse me, we can't do that.
Why can't you do that?
Well, it's completely contraryto our culture.
And my response is it'scompletely contrary to my
culture.
Yeah, no, nobody.
(18:37):
Nobody wakes up in the morningand goes let's see who I can
confront today.
Right, man, I loveconfrontation, but it's still
biblical.
I love confrontation, but it'sstill biblical.
Yeah, but it's biblical, but wealways what speak the truth in
love.
Yeah, so there are many aspectsof evangelism and discipleship
that are countercultural, but itactually addresses the need of
(19:04):
the human heart, and this issomething just to share.
A word of encouragement witheveryone is that everyone, in
every place, with all kinds offaces, they all face the same
issue.
Number one there is a universalunderstanding that there is a
God.
Amen, you know.
(19:26):
I mean talk to the guys who arein in Ukraine right now, you
know, who are formerly atheistsand they've got shells going
over their head.
They're thinking God.
If you're there, you know so.
So it it might be that, um,they're, they're not atheists,
they may be agnostic, going manif there is a God.
It's kind of like the old adagethat atheists say there is no
(19:52):
God and I hate him very much.
Right, which is completelyinconsistent.
But the agnostic would say well, I'm not, you know.
I know there's something, butI'm not sure who it is.
So all around the world there'sthis universal.
I think, as the word says, inthe innermost being of our
(20:14):
hearts we know there is a God.
The second universal truth isthe recognition of sin, and so
the big question is what am Igoing to do with my sin?
How can my sin be paid for?
And God answers that questionNothing but the blood of Jesus.
Speaker 2 (20:37):
Religion can't answer it.
Speaker 3 (20:38):
Our morality can't answer it, Self-realization
can't answer it.
Self-realization can't answerit.
So those individuals that we gooh, I don't know.
Is there anybody out there whoreally wants to hear the gospel
anymore?
Yes, because they all have aninward struggle with things that
they know they're doing thatthey shouldn't be doing, and
they know that they're guilty ofsomething the Bible calls sin.
(21:03):
Paul writes about it in Romans.
It says you know, they know itin their what?
In their hearts?
Yep their conscience theirwitness.
(21:24):
Absolutely.
So that's that encouragement tosay you know, god is working in
the hearts and minds of peoplebefore we even speak to them and
that's an encouragement forthose who go.
Is there anybody out there whoreally wants to hear this
message?
Absolutely, god is preparingthem to hear from you.
Amen.
Speaker 1 (21:38):
Amen.
Well, let's transition a little.
Let's take some of what you'vesaid.
Let's say, if you could talk toJim Baugh entering into Mesa
Baptist so many years ago, right, you could talk to him and say,
hey, I'm now traveling theworld, I'm doing all these
things to spread the gospel, toequip people.
But you, young Jim, I want youto know, as a young pastor,
(22:03):
these are some things that youshould be looking out for.
These are some things that youshould be putting into your
philosophy of ministry, intowhat you're doing Now.
I grew up with you preachingthe word of God and that has
laid a foundation for my lifeand for my family's life, and
that's that's amazing.
So we know that that wasfoundational to your ministry
preaching the word of God.
But but beyond that, evangelism, discipleship, what would you
(22:27):
tell a young Jim Ball?
Speaker 3 (22:29):
Well, yeah, there's a number of things, that's a good
question.
Yeah, very good question andwe'll handle that next week.
No, I think you know Actschapter 2, is always the
template for me in ministry,even though I could say I did
(22:53):
these things effectively Thankyou, holy Spirit and I did these
other things ineffectively.
Aspects of what some call, youknow, the mark of a healthy
(23:15):
church is prayer, worship.
That's what they did.
The teaching of the apostles'doctrine, which I count as the
whole counsel of God, the, youknow the word is central,
worship is central, thefellowship and equipping of the
saints.
You'll notice that they didn'tjust have one.
(23:36):
You know one big event and thenone big midweek event.
I mean they were meeting inhomes, they, they, uh, they had
evidently some, some uh,impactful leadership development
so that in those home meetings,those home gatherings, you
didn't have people going off,you know, on some doctrinal
(24:01):
weird tangent, although thathappened because 90% of the new
Testament is written to combatdoctrinal error.
So you have the multiplicationof leadership, the training and
equipping of leaders, and thenyou have the impact of that kind
(24:21):
of spiritual health in thecommunity.
The Bible says that every daythe Lord was adding to the
church, they had some impactwithin the context of their
culture by the love that theyhad for one another, first right
, and then the love that theyhad for their community.
You know, jesus said this inJohn 13,.
(24:43):
By this will all people knowthat you are my disciples if you
love one another.
And it's interesting to me thatone of the greatest apologetics
or defenses of the faith is notnecessarily our ability to
articulate you know, the fourpoints of the gospel, but our
ability to articulate anddemonstrate our love for each
(25:06):
other.
And so you know, those are allchallenges.
I mean, when I began as apastor, you know I was 32 years
old.
Everybody was, ah, you're soyoung, and so forth.
But I really attempted todevelop those four aspects of
(25:27):
ministry, and leadershipdevelopment was one of those key
issues.
The other thing is is when youknow every church is going
through, I would say you knowthere's a transitional aspect in
ministry.
I went into a church that was.
It was, you know, an old church.
(25:49):
I mean it'd been around for Idon't know how many years 30
years or 40 years prior to mycoming.
And so there's this aspect ofchange that younger pastors want
that overlooks, I mean, rightnow, I think.
(26:11):
I think it's, I think it's.
It's a bad thing that they comein going.
We don't want these people.
We want these people.
We want this demographic.
We don't want this demographic.
And yet God says these are thesheep I've given you.
So, so don't overlook.
Don't overlook the, the, theolder folks and the traditions
(26:37):
and so forth that they're set in.
I mean, teach them out of it,and it's not an easy process.
Yeah, because you got.
You know the young bucks whocome in and go.
Speaker 1 (26:49):
oh, we hate these old people you know, get rid of
these old people, and it's theold people, you know.
Speaker 3 (26:54):
They don't stand, they don't raise their hands,
they don't, and I'm like they're.
They're part of the flock thatGod has given us and I have a
responsibility, not to beat thesheep, but to lead the sheep and
to care for them, and sometimesthat process is not as easy and
(27:16):
quick as it is when you'restarting a brand new work.
Speaker 2 (27:22):
Yeah, no, that's a great word.
That's a great word.
Speaker 3 (27:27):
And I've heard pastors go we don't want this
demographic.
And I'm like, yeah, but that'sthe demographic.
Those are the sheep that Godhas given you.
What's the first thing thatJesus said to Peter when he
confronted him about his failure?
He said Peter, do you love me?
Right, then feed my sheep.
(27:48):
Feed my sheep.
Speaker 2 (27:50):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (27:51):
He didn't go hey, forget those and and look for
somebody who's 25.
Yeah, he said, feed my sheep,train and equip my sheep.
So, um, that was one of thebiggest challenges that that I
faced.
Um was having churches, thatand and also the challenge of
comparison.
Um, that you know well why.
(28:14):
You know why are I mean we grew, I mean God bless the church.
I think I was our church inTillamook was bigger than the
one that than Mesa when I came,and I know Mesa had gone through
all kinds of stuff, had quite ahistory of of.
You know, we talk aboutchurches multiplying and some
(28:35):
churches are better at divisionthan they are at multiplication,
right, that's an accurate word.
We've gone through that, but Godblessed the work and it
certainly wasn't as big as someof the other churches that were
going on around it.
But because it was a differentdemographic, it was a different
(28:58):
ministry, and one of thechallenges another challenges I
faced was that challenge ofcomparison.
And God does not call me tocompete with other churches.
God calls me to complete theministry with other churches and
(29:19):
see how we together can reach acommunity that's lost and
without Christ.
So that's easier done or saidthan done, because sometimes,
guys, you know they're, they're,they're not kingdom minded, and
I mean they're kingdom mindedbut it's basically their own
(29:40):
kingdom instead of God's.
And so I remember the story ofone pastor.
You know, a guy came to me andgoes hey, we're not growing like
such and such a church andwe're not doing that.
How come we're not this?
How come we're not?
And the pastor said you knowsomething?
I'm just so thankful for theirgrowth and we need to come
(30:03):
alongside them and pray thatthey would continue to grow,
that God might bless them andbless us in the process, that
together we can reach thiscommunity for Jesus.
And that was the heartbeat thatI wanted to have and I
challenge you guys to have thesame one, not of competition but
of completion.
Speaker 2 (30:24):
Yeah, I think I resonate with you.
Know this is my fifth year inthe pastorate and you know
there's always the year of thehoneymoon stage and then year
two and year three.
There was nothing, was ever tothe point of division, but the
congregation here was about 70or so, and then we saw some
(30:46):
immediate growth and it washaving to shepherd our people
through that change that theyhad never seen before, and so I
resonate with that.
But I'm also grateful for yourthought on that.
These are the people God hasgiven you, and so they're to be
involved in that process to makedisciples, and I think that's
the biggest heartbeat, is ourdirective, is the great
(31:10):
commission there?
are people that need to bereached.
You have the capability to doso.
Let's get going.
Speaker 3 (31:19):
Yeah, absolutely.
And you know one.
I've had numerous conversationswith pastors and leaders and
I'll never forget one guy going,you know, and they were in I'll
call it a transitional churchsaying, you know, this is the
(31:39):
demographic that I want.
I don't want these old people.
And I said, look, you know,you've been called to shepherd
the sheep, the older people.
They don't have the abilitiesto do this or that or the other
thing, but there are certaingiftings and abilities that
they've been given and as ashepherd, you're called to
(32:02):
direct them in their strengthsand to equip them in their
weaknesses so that they canfulfill the great commission in
the way that God is empoweringthem to do it.
And my 92-year-old motherempowering them to do it.
And my 92 year old mother, youknow, is not going to be quote
unquote bringing in the sheaves.
You know, I mean a lot of herrelational connections have
(32:25):
already gone home to be with theLord.
But I'll tell you one thingthat she will do is she will
pray and she will supportfinancially and if you share the
vision with those individualswho make up the body, right, I
mean, we're not.
That was the analogy that Paulgave to the church in Corinth.
(32:46):
He said you know, we're not alleyeballs.
You know what would it looklike?
I'll never forget being inseminary and my professor saying
what would it be like if abunch of eyeballs came rolling
out of their cars on Sundaymorning to the church service?
He said we're a body and everybody has different parts that,
(33:08):
working together, accomplish thegoal.
So in that ministry, as youngpastors, consider every person
that God has given to you asprecious, and they are sheep
that need to be shepherded andthey are individuals that need
(33:28):
to be equipped and encouraged intheir walk with God so that
they can fulfill the greatcommission and make disciples in
the way that God has giftedthem to do it Right.
Speaker 2 (33:41):
We receive that.
Amen, amen, amen.
So let's close it up with thislast piece.
When you come out here in a fewweeks, in April, we're going to
be having an OBC Academy andwe've done OBC Academies before.
We have, of course, home groups, but then these are our
(34:01):
periodic, or you could say likeour quarterly trainings.
We've been doing hermeneuticsfor the last five or six
sessions or so that we've doneit.
This will be the first one thatwe're going to be doing in the
realm of evangelism.
We're going to tackle both thetheological spectrum and the
practical areas of how do weactually get out with our
(34:24):
neighbors and share.
So you're going to be speakingspecifically in that first hour
from the theological andpractical side.
Theological and practical side.
If you were to just give ourpeople a little appetizer, if
you were to give our people justenough of a primer to get ready
for our next OVC Academy, whatdo you have in store for them?
(34:44):
Well, I'm looking forward to bethere.
Speaker 3 (34:47):
So yeah, I'm excited about it.
I think that vantage point ofGod's heartbeat has always been
to reach others.
I mean, you know, the Bibletells us in the New Testament
God is not willing that anyshould perish, and so oftentimes
we think that the ministry ofevangelism and discipleship came
(35:11):
, I mean primarily through thecall of Jesus, which I affirm
Amen, or perhaps even throughPaul.
I mean Paul modeled that.
But actually it's the heartbeatof God from the book of Genesis
all the way through maps.
You know, revelation I mean thewhole of the Bible is God's
(35:34):
heartbeat to reach the nationswith the good news of Jesus.
Speaker 2 (35:39):
Amen.
We're looking forward to havingyou out here, brother.
You have been a major influencein the both of our lives and
our congregation, indirectly,has benefited from your
faithfulness over the years.
So we're looking forward tohaving you with our elder team,
having you here at the OVCAcademy, having you in the
pulpit preaching, so we'relooking forward to having you
(36:01):
out and, brother, it was greatspending time with you today.
Thank you, thank you.
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