March 13, 2024 • 40 mins
Dr. Geoff Chang, who joins us from Midwestern Baptist Theological Seminary to discuss the dedicated pastoral work of the 'Prince of Preachers'. As we navigate through Dr. Chang's book "Spurgeon the Pastor," you will gain more insight on Charles H. Spurgeon's shepherding of a 19th-century megachurch. Dr. Chang helps us glean from Spurgeon an understanding of the pivotal role concerning corporate prayer in the life of a church.
Step into a world where the collective voice in prayer becomes the heartbeat of a congregation, with Spurgeon's practices serving as a beacon for our own times. Our conversation focuses on the power of shared supplication, reinforcing the necessity of maintaining a dynamic prayer life amid today's distractions and keeping a Gospel centered approach to congregational prayer as a cornerstone of faith.
We delve into the personal prayer life of Charles H. Spurgeon, unearthing his personal devotional poems and the sacredness of his family worship. The tender balance Spurgeon achieved between his public ministry and his home life offers an inspiring blueprint for nurturing faith within the family. Dr. Chang provides a rare glimpse into Spurgeon's inner sanctum, revealing how this historical figure's domestic devotion can guide us in creating a spiritually rich home environment. It's an honor to share this dialogue with Dr. Chang, which promises to fuel your own walk with Jesus and deepen your appreciation for the timeless lessons from Charles Spurgeon's life as a servant of Christ.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:10):
Welcome to the Be Disciples podcast with heroes
Kyle Morris and David Glavin.
A few of our other guys are out.
We got Dakota Smith and Mexicowith a team on a mission trip.
We've got Chance Holler on amission trip, headed to Africa
today.
But today we have a specialguest with us.
We have Dr Jeff Chang fromMidwestern Baptist Theological
(00:31):
Seminary.
Welcome to the podcast.
Hey, so good to be with youguys.
Thanks for having me.
Yeah, it is awesome.
I've loved my time atMidwestern.
I was online most of the time,but I only live an hour away, so
I got to participate inconferences and really any
opportunity to come up there.
So thank you for all that youguys are doing there.
It's been awesome.
That's so good to hear.
(00:52):
Thank you, brother.
Yeah, I'm repping my sweatershirt today.
So, make sure we'll get enoughMidwestern publicity marketing,
but also, yeah, it's just been,it's been really fun.
So introduce yourself.
What's your role at Midwestern?
What are you doing there andtalk about?
Really your just your historyin the past or it, and then your
(01:14):
family?
Speaker 3 (01:16):
Yeah, so, jeff Chang.
I've been here at Midwesternfor four years.
I teach historical theology.
My official title is assistantprofessor of historical theology
.
I also teach church history,baptist history, it classes on
ecclesiology.
As I said, I've been here forfour years.
We before coming here, I was apastor in Portland, oregon,
(01:41):
where I served at Hinson BaptistChurch for 10 years as an
associate pastor.
Prior to that, I was at CapitolHill Baptist Church in
Washington DC, where I was apastoral assistant for a couple
of years.
Yeah, but now here in KansasCity, I'm an elder at Warnell
Road Baptist Church.
I'm married to Stephanie.
We have three kids.
What else Is that covered?
(02:03):
Is that covered at all?
Speaker 1 (02:04):
Yeah, no, certainly.
I mean you did leave out.
Curator of the Spurgeon.
Speaker 3 (02:08):
Library, Of course.
Speaker 1 (02:09):
I mean of course, that's a little bit important.
Speaker 3 (02:13):
Yeah, one of the amazing things that we have here
at Midwestern is CharlesSpurgeon's books are here,
kansas City, missouri.
Yeah, we have this beautifulspace built to house them, but
more than just sort of a museumfor you to walk through.
We also have a kind of agrowing research center centered
on Spurgeon scholarship.
(02:33):
So we have scholars visiting,accessing our resources.
Just this past fall we made ahuge acquisition, bringing over
from Spurgeon's College, uk,their collection of Spurgeon
materials, and so we.
It's just a phenomenalcollection that we have here at
Midwestern.
So it's a privilege for me toget to sort of steward that
(02:57):
think about how to use it foradvancing Spurgeon scholarship
but also for telling the storyof Spurgeon's life and ministry.
So if you're ever in the KansasCity area, do stop by the
Spurgeon Library.
We'd love to host you for avisit.
Speaker 1 (03:10):
Yeah, it's I.
Every time I'm on campus I walkin because I have to go and
just look around and spend alittle bit of time in there.
So, yeah, you have to check itout if you're on campus.
Don't don't miss out on that.
But before really we get intothe main topic, I do want to
make sure that I talk about yourbook.
Here we have a book that Ipre-ordered and read right away
(03:34):
Spurgeon the Pastor.
And so you've really taken adifferent look at Spurgeon,
where most really emphasize hispreaching, obviously because
that's what he was known for thePrince of Preachers.
And so tell us just a snippet,say somebody's listening to this
, and they're like who isSpurgeon?
I don't know that guy.
Just give us a brief overviewof Spurgeon and then tell us
(03:56):
about your book, what, whatreally gave you the vision to
write a book about Spurgeon thepastor and to kind of review
what he did as a shepherd of thechurch and as a leader?
Speaker 3 (04:07):
Yeah, yeah, charles Haddon Spurgeon.
He was a 19th century Baptistpastor, probably the most famous
preacher of the 19th century.
His sermons were sold by thetens of thousands, week by week.
He had a remarkable ministrythere in London, one that
reached really the whole world.
(04:27):
Out of his ministry came, as Isaid, thousands of sermons.
He founded an orphanage, hefounded the pastor's college.
He sent out members of hischurch to plant other churches,
to work with other missionaries,to pioneer different benevolent
works throughout London.
So really just a remarkableministry.
(04:51):
With all that being said, though, as a, as is the case with the
title of my book, what I wantedto highlight was just the fact
that fundamentally, he was apastor.
Yeah, he was not kind of a, asomebody occupying a preaching
station, he was not running aparaturch ministry.
At the end of the day he was alocal church pastor trying to be
(05:11):
faithful, care for hiscongregation, and that really
was the base, the foundationkind of, of everything else that
he did.
So my book, spurgeon the pastor, just takes a look at how he
pastored the largest kind ofmega church of the 19th century,
really the only one.
Speaker 1 (05:27):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (05:27):
A church that, by his death, had over 5,000 members.
But what's so remarkable aboutthat fact is he really meant to
be a faithful pastor.
So of those 5,000 members, hewanted to think about how to?
How to bring them in correctly.
You know, do things likemembership interviews, have the
congregation vote on eachapplication, examine each
(05:48):
candidate.
He, once he brought them intothe church, he and his elders
worked hard to keep track oftheir members, provide pastoral
care, do pastoral visitation.
You know, pursue members whowere sort of falling through the
cracks and they hadn't seen fora while.
They practiced things likechurch discipline and members
(06:10):
meetings.
They had prayer meetings andall kinds of other discipleship
structures in place andcertainly that church was an
amazing engine for gospelministry throughout the world.
So I tell that story in my booksSpurgeon the pastor.
It's so much fun to read,especially if you are yourself
somebody who's in the localchurch and you know all the
(06:31):
challenges that we face.
But to see Spurgeon try to befaithful in his challenging
context, I think it's superencouraging.
And really that's the heart ofmy book, wanting to emphasize
that past, all the amazing fruitand all the incredible numbers
of the things that heaccomplished.
Most of all, he was beingfaithful to his biblical and
(06:54):
theological convictions aboutwhat the church ought to be, and
that's, I think, the best modelwe can have for ourselves.
Not that we would everduplicate his ministry, but that
we would try to imitate hisfaithfulness.
And that's, I think, the gulfof the Christian life.
Speaker 1 (07:13):
Yeah, you certainly pointed out the principles that
we need to take from Spurgeon,biblical principles, and how he
put those into practice.
I remember you were speakingone time about some elder notes
that were written out about ameeting with a potential new
member and kind of their notes,taking notes on their thoughts,
(07:33):
on their understanding of thegospel.
Speaker 3 (07:35):
Yeah, the membership interviews, that's right
Membership interviews.
Speaker 1 (07:37):
have they really grasped this?
And that's something that hadbeen implemented here at our
church, but it was a good likereminder why we do them.
Sometimes they they can becomestale or routine and it's like
no, these are really importantand we need to make sure that
one we're connecting with thatindividual and making sure that
they they're saved, they knowthe gospel and they understand
what Jesus has done.
So that was just their freshreminders in this book.
(07:59):
Fresh reminders if you're beenin the pastorate for a long time
, it really helps.
Or if you're just entering in.
Why are all these thingsimportant?
Why do we do these practices?
Why did Spurgeon do them, andso you do a really good job
highlighting all those, whichwas very refreshing, kept kept
my eyes fresh on what was goingon in our church.
Speaker 2 (08:19):
So very good.
Speaker 1 (08:19):
Thank you for that.
Yeah, very welcome.
Yeah, if you want to check outhis book, I will put a link down
in the description of his bookwhere you can go.
You can purchase it.
But I recommend and also I'llput the Spurgeon Library in
Midwestern links down there soeverybody can go check it out.
Again, it's in Kansas City,Missouri, and if you're in the
(08:41):
area you have to go, you have tosee the campus.
It's beautiful, and check outthe Spurgeon Library and so
thank you for writing that book.
It's definitely spurred me onin this direction of Spurgeon on
Prayer, which is our main topicfor today.
Really focusing on his, on hispastorate and then how he led
his people in prayer.
So we've implemented a prayermeeting this last year.
(09:03):
I've read only a prayer meeting.
I read your book, some others,to just kind of stir the
understanding of why Spurgeondid prayer meetings and prayer
meetings aren't new, you know.
It's not like it's this newconcept revolutionary.
Let's do prayer meetings.
That's been around for a longtime where churches get together
and pray.
But there was, I think, someunique things about his prayer
(09:26):
meetings in his pastorate, whathe expected of his congregation
and to train them up inunderstanding why prayer is so
important.
So I you know all those thingsreally highlighted the purpose.
Hey, we need to focus on prayermeetings and we need to make it
a priority in our church topray together corporately.
And so really let's start there.
(09:50):
Spurgeon and the prayer meetingyou know what, when it came to
pastor in his church, why aprayer meeting and why was it so
important to him?
Speaker 3 (09:59):
Yeah, great question.
Certainly, as you said, prayermeetings have been around a long
time.
I would say they've been aroundsince the New Testament.
Yeah, we see the church inJerusalem.
There, you know, they veryquickly come under pressure from
the Pharisees not to preach thegospel anymore and Paul and
John are.
Peter and John are threatenedin that.
(10:20):
And so the believers gettogether and they pray and it
says there was a prayer meetingin Jerusalem that the room was
shaken and all those believerswere even more emboldened in the
preaching of the gospel.
So the early church is praying.
We see that example.
We see Paul's commands to prayto the church.
So it's no surprise thatthroughout church history, as
(10:41):
you said, churches have alwayscome together to pray, not just
individual prayer but corporateprayer, coming together to pray
as a congregation, as a church.
You know it's much more thanjust like an activity of the
church.
I mean it was part of ourphilosophy of ministry.
We believe that.
You know, we cannot coerceanyone to salvation.
(11:04):
We cannot manipulate anyone tomake a decision for Christ.
At the end of the day, the HolySpirit has to move.
The Holy Spirit has to openblind eyes, awaken dead hearts.
Salvation belongs to the Lord,and if we really believe that as
Christians, then we don't thinkthat.
You know, as good as I think mypreaching is, it's not good
(11:24):
enough to raise the dead rightIn fact I probably put some
people to sleep instead ofraising the dead in my preaching
.
So you know, my congregationneeds to understand that.
I certainly need to believethat, which means I need to urge
my people to pray.
You know, like, okay, I'm gonnado my best to preach faithful
(11:45):
sermons but at the end of theday we have to ask the Lord to
move.
If there's gonna be anyspiritual growth in our church,
if there's gonna be sinnersconverted, it's gonna be God's
work and he wants us to ask forit.
He doesn't want us to just kindof presume that it'll happen,
but we have to come to him independence, trusting him to work
(12:06):
.
And so a lot of young peoplethese days, like Spurgeon, would
hold to a Calvinistic theology,understanding that God is
sovereign in salvation.
I think that's wonderful, but Ithink most of all that ought to
be reflected in their prayerlives.
And a church can have all theCalvinistic doctrine that it
(12:29):
wants, but if it's not comingtogether to pray, then what's
the point of that theology?
Right?
So a prayer, coming togetherfor congregational prayer is a
part of your philosophy ofministry.
You preach the gospel and thenyou gather your people to pray.
And if you, spurgeon would say,if you're unhappy with your
(12:50):
preacher, if you're finding himdry and unfruitful and just
preaching, he would ask you well, are you praying for him?
Are you supporting him?
Are you lifting up his armslike Aaron and her lifting up
Moses' arms?
Are you supporting him inprayer?
And if not, then maybe theproblem is with you, maybe the
(13:14):
problem is with the congregation.
So yeah, it has to be part ofyour philosophy of ministry.
It also is so much kind of asign of health in the church.
It's striking to me as I readSpurgeon.
He would send his students offto plant churches and they would
often write back reports andone of the things that they
(13:36):
would report on, in addition tohow the church was growing, any
new conversions, baptisms, thosekinds of things but they would
also report how many people areshowing up to prayer meeting.
And I always thought that wasso striking because for Spurgeon
that was one of the bestindicators of the health of the
church, not just the size of it.
(13:57):
I mean, size is one thing,that's great, but how healthy is
that size?
Out of that 300 members areonly 10 people showing up to
pray.
What does that tell you aboutthe church?
So he really felt like to keepup the prayer meeting was a work
(14:19):
to instill in his people a deepdependence on the Lord and
understanding that they couldn'tdo this work of the ministry on
their own.
One of the best signs of healththen was that they would come
together to pray together to askthe Lord for help.
The church is not just this kindof he says.
(14:40):
The church is not just amachinery that you can keep
going.
You just do these structuresand everything just runs on its
own.
No, it's a living thing, it'san organism.
It needs life and that life isthe spirit.
And therefore, as Christians,we never just go about the work
of the church mechanically, asif we can just kind of keep it
(15:01):
running, but no, we come to theLord in prayer asking for his
help.
Two points there.
A lot more I could say.
I'll let you respond, yeah.
Speaker 1 (15:10):
I mean I grew up in Baptist churches, southern
Baptist churches, and I've seensuccess and then I've also seen
lukewarm places and any time itwas lukewarm and it was just
kind of going along in theroutine.
The prayer meetings were likefive people and they were just
(15:30):
getting together faithfullyevery week and in a room and
praying together.
And not that five peoplepraying for a church isn't going
to move God's heart.
God loves his church but itdefinitely was a sign of where
the people were at at that time.
And so going into this at ourchurch that's, I was like what's
this going to be like?
We've seen growth and it's beenreally awesome and people are
(15:55):
coming and we're preaching theword and it's just been a fun
time in ministry.
I mean four years ago thischurch was about 70 to 75 people
and now we're pushing 400.
And so it's just been anawesome thing to see people come
.
And so when I was like, OK,this prayer meeting's been on my
heart, it's been on my heartfor a year.
(16:15):
I've been praying, I've beenreading, I've been prepping,
that is kind of the fear likewho's going to come, who's going
to show up.
I want people to come because Iwant them to see God work.
And really by the second prayermeeting, kind of that shyness of
praying corporately, peoplespeaking and praying aloud, kind
of wore off.
And man, it was great to justhear the hearts of the people,
(16:38):
what God's been doing in theirlives, the needs of the church
praying for the lost.
Being able to come together anddo that has been fruitful
already.
So it's been great to see thatand so definitely been a fun
time watching the Lord work.
And so thank you for sharingthat.
But, David, I'm going to passit off to you.
(16:59):
I know you got a few questionson prayer in the church
specifically.
Speaker 2 (17:03):
Yeah, well, I had specifically a question going
off of the Spurgeon's insistenceupon and leading his church
into prayer and hosting prayermeetings.
In your study and yourunderstanding are there some
struggles.
What were some of the strugglesand successes or joys that came
(17:25):
out of that specifically inSpurgeon's ministry?
Where are there notes or thingsthat kind of show where he
struggled with leading thechurch in prayer and what are
maybe some successes and thingswhere that was successful?
Speaker 3 (17:44):
Yeah, I think every prayer meeting will have some
challenges.
I think in my book I talk abouta visitor from Boston going and
attending one of the prayermeetings there and him finding
the whole thing kind of dead,sort of just kind of going kind
of poorly.
And it wasn't until then.
(18:04):
Spurgeon kind of takes thereins of the prayer meeting and
leads out in a prayer thatthings really began to kind of
pick up.
But he gives a really dramatictelling of that story.
But I think not every prayermeeting will be so dramatic.
I think there would be prayermeetings where it's just great
you go there, you pray with thechurch, you pray for good things
(18:26):
, you're edified and then youwalk away having done good work.
It's not this sort of dramaticexperience necessarily, and I
think that's OK.
As the pastor, though, you willalways need to fight against
that kind of mechanical approachto prayer meetings and to the
church, reminding your peopleonce again why you do what you
do and putting the heart ofprayer into that prayer meeting.
(18:48):
Other struggles, I mean heoften talks to the students
about not letting people praytoo long.
I think earlier on, when hewould lead those prayer meetings
, you have some certain memberswho would just kind of ramble
and then they go.
They're praying out loud morefor their own sort of for their
own sakes, rather than thinkingabout the people that are there
(19:11):
with them, and so they carry ontoo long and it becomes
difficult and burdensome forthose who are attending.
So Spurgeon says cut thosepeople off.
You can't let them dominate themeeting.
You have to help them, right?
I think Spurgeon also was verycareful to curate the kinds of
(19:31):
things that they were prayingfor.
I think sometimes people wantto bring very personal kind of
individualized prayer requeststo the prayer meeting.
But Spurgeon always made surethat there was a sense of
urgency about what was beingprayed for and an understanding
of why these things matteredspiritually.
He would particularly emphasizeministry opportunities that the
(19:52):
church had.
He would invite folks from theorphanage or from the various
evangelistic ministries or theywould pray for their students
that were being sent out.
Those kinds of things were atthe heart of what he prayed for.
Yeah, in terms of the successes,it's just remarkable that every
week thousands turned out topray.
(20:14):
With the congregation so large,clearly not everybody could
pray out loud, but still, incoming together and being led in
prayer, they found that to beedifying and needed for the life
of the church.
And there will be many reportsof people who said, man, like
(20:34):
you know, I loved hearingSpurgeon preach on Sunday, but
it was coming to that prayermeeting on Monday.
That really left an impression,you know, and many of these
people who, visitors whoattended the Monday night prayer
meeting, would walk awayconvinced that they needed to do
that in their own churches also.
You know something like that.
So the influence of that Mondaynight prayer meeting from the
(20:56):
Metropolitan Tabernacle was apowerful thing in its own right.
Yeah, I've had to think about.
Speaker 1 (21:02):
You know Spurgeon's cultural context you know, when
he was doing this.
You know he was somebody peoplewanted to come see, whether they
were Christians or not.
Spurgeon had a reputation ofhis preaching.
People wanted to come listenand that was great.
They came and heard the gospel.
But today we have differenttypes of distractions of life.
(21:23):
You know Spurgeon, you knowtalks about the different vices
of life, you know alcoholism andthings that people are getting
into, spending time at the bars,which we still have that today.
But now we have these devicesin our hands.
We have all these things tolike keep us busy and which I
feel like over time has causedlike, well, let's do less
services at the church.
Well, let's do less things.
(21:44):
And it's kind of allowed for theprayer meeting to slip in some
places or for these things thatSpurgeon instituted that weren't
programs.
They were things dedicated tothe Lord, for his glory and to
bring people into relationshipwith God, and so, yeah, I've
kind of had to like weavethrough, like what is?
He had difficulties in certainthings and then now today we're
(22:04):
going to have to navigate thatas the, as the pastorate, to say
you know, these are things weneed to be disciplined in our
walk with the Lord and prayer isa part of the that discipline
and and then pastoring thechurch, shepherding them in that
direction.
To say prayer is important andwe need to get rid of some of
those other things in order topray and not that those things
(22:26):
are always bad, but but we needto evaluate the priority of our
life and I feel like Spurgeondid a good job of like you need
to be here on Monday, right?
There's no excuse not to be hereon Monday night to pray with
the church and he almost kind ofhad that in his, in his sermons
.
You kind of felt that like, ohman, he's really shepherding the
church to come and to listenand to participate, to be
(22:48):
discipled and then to go serveand to go evangelize.
And you, just, you, just, inthe words that he's preaching,
you could, you could tell thatthat's how he was shepherding
and that was awesome to see.
And I try to evaluate myself inthat way as much as possible,
because that's what I wantpeople to do I want them to
continue to grow on their walkwith the Lord.
And Spurgeon had that and thatwas the shepherding, the
(23:09):
pasturing part of his, even inhis preaching.
You could, you could read thatin his sermons.
Speaker 3 (23:14):
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
John Calvin talks about prayerbeing the chief expression of
faith.
If the primary way we expressour faith in Christ is through
prayer, then coming together topray as a church is the most
fitting thing we could do rightCongregationally.
Certainly we do that in thecontext of our Sunday morning
(23:37):
gatherings and we can do that inour small groups, but to come
together for a meeting devotedto prayer, yeah, I think that's
a powerful thing.
I think something uniquehappens in that kind of context
it not only grows our trust inLord, but it knits the people
together Now, as we seek theLord together in prayer.
Speaker 2 (23:57):
We've talked about Spurgeon's leadership and
leading the church into prayerand the importance of prayer in
the church.
Are there any insights that youcan give on Spurgeon's personal
prayer life and how heexemplified that?
Speaker 3 (24:12):
Yeah, not a ton.
I mean meaning he was veryprivate about his prayers.
I think he took Jesus commandsthere in Matthew six seriously
right that he kept privateprayer private.
So I mean, examples of thatwould be that he was often
(24:33):
reluctant.
People wanted to publish hisprayers but he often kind of
refused to do so.
I think it was only until afterhis death that his son
published a volume of hisprayers, of his Sunday morning
prayers, and you can purchasethat volume.
When he wrote a volume on familyworship, his publishers wanted
(24:56):
him to include prayers in thosekind of daily devotionals and he
again refused.
He just thought people need tolearn to pray with their own
words.
They don't need me writingtheir prayers for them.
So he very much saw prayer,especially private prayer, as
something not to be rehearsedbut something that we could very
(25:18):
spontaneously do before theLord, pouring our hearts out.
One of the things that we havehere in the Spurgeon Library is
a volume, a notebook, ofhandwritten poems by Spurgeon,
unpublished, handwritten kind ofprivate devotional poems and,
lord willing, in May this willbe released so you can be on the
(25:39):
lookout for that.
It's going to be called ChristAre All, but these are just
Spurgeon's own privatedevotional poems never before
published.
That's awesome Coming out forthe first time this spring, so
we've transcribed them.
B&h Academic is publishing them.
But these 180-something poems,all kind of showing kind of his
(26:01):
heart before the Lord, hisconfession of sin, his feeling
of weakness, his times of joys,his earnestness in the ministry,
all these things come out inthese poems which are, I think,
a reflection of his prayer life,and what you get is just
(26:22):
striking this man who walkedbefore the Lord, who, as much as
he talked about dependence onthe Lord in public, you see that
showing up in private also.
So yeah, so much we could sayabout that.
But I commend that volume ofpoems to you.
Yeah, coming out this May.
Speaker 1 (26:40):
Yeah, that's awesome.
I mean I can't imagine he wroteso much and he had time to
write 180 poems.
So obviously that was probablyvery private, something he did
more for himself, between himand the Lord.
You know that was something hepracticed, but that gives us
insight.
He spent time in prayer andthen he wrote things down, you
(27:04):
know, in poem form, andexpressed his relationship with
the Lord through that, andobviously we see that in the
Psalms.
I mean, we see poems, songswritten to the Lord, and so that
was a practice for a reallylong time.
But we see Spurgeon copying thethings that are in Scripture
and then implementing that intohis daily devotion and then into
(27:27):
his pastorate and leading thepeople.
And so, yeah, that's amazing.
I know, david, you also had anemphasis on family you know,
Spurgeon devotions.
You even mentioned that familyworship or family devotion in
prayer.
What was Spurgeon's instructionon that?
I know he wrote a lot ofdevotion.
We have a lot of devotionstoday that are Spurgeon's works
(27:49):
that we use individually and inthe homes.
But what was his counsel, hisleadership in making sure
families were discipling,parents were discipling their
kids in the home.
Being in the Word, what was hismessage on that?
Speaker 3 (28:06):
Yeah, family worship was an important institution for
him and his household.
He was, you know, very much apeer attendant.
In that sense he would lead hisfamily in worship twice a day,
once in the morning, once in theevening.
I get the sense that they keptthose meetings pretty simple.
(28:27):
He would often lead them, hewould lead in prayer, they would
sing a hymn and then he wouldread a passage of Scripture and
as he read that passage ofScripture he would comment on it
, looking for little teachingopportunities, and that would be
about it.
I would get the sense that theywould that each meeting would
take maybe 30 minutes, maybeless, just a brief time to
(28:51):
gather the house together andlead them in some spiritual
reflection and prayer andworship and reading of Scripture
.
So, yeah, I think he wouldencourage families to do that,
to be consistent in that.
He would encourage fathers tolead in that and not to go
(29:12):
overboard with those things, butjust to be consistent in them
and seek to edify and challengethose who are in your house.
Speaker 1 (29:20):
Yeah, and it's awesome to know that he was.
That was a time that he stuckwith.
It didn't matter who was at hishouse, but the time of day, hey
, we're going to be in prayerand in the Word, and that's what
we do here and it's interestingto read his sons.
Speaker 3 (29:37):
They always talk very positively about their father,
charles Jr and Thomas, and theyexplicitly talk about how those
times of family worship wereactually really sweet.
As young boys they enjoyedthose times.
I don't get the sense thatSpurgeon was ever boring or
really stiff and formal in thosetimes of family worship, but it
was very warm.
He wouldn't mind using humor.
(29:58):
He used humor.
He was such a fun personalityto be with and certainly when it
comes to family worship I thinkhe kept an appropriate kind of
familial tone to it so that hisboys could look back on those
times and really reallyappreciate them.
Speaker 1 (30:16):
Yeah, it's great to see the example of a pastor, a
pastor in his family, leadinghis family in prayer, taking
care of his home.
We know that Spurgeon was abusy man.
At a certain point he becameextremely busy but, making sure
that his wife and his childrenknew who Jesus was, spent time
(30:36):
in the Word with him, and that'sa reminder for us as pastors.
We can't forget our ministry athome and we can't neglect it,
because that will definitelynegatively impact our church.
And so Spurgeon did that in thehome, in private.
People were at his house, hedisplayed that and that's really
important for us.
And so I kind of want totransition here, kind of as
(30:59):
we're winding down, as we landthe plane.
We've been talking aboutSpurgeon.
If you mentioned John Calvin,we have tons of individuals in
church history that we look toMartin Luther, svingli, I mean,
we could go, you could just namethem, you could rattle them off
.
But from your perspective as aprofessor of historical theology
(31:22):
, as we look at the past, why dowe need to know about these
guys?
Like, what's important for usas the church to study them, to
learn from them?
Like, why do we do it?
What makes it an importantpiece of the way we function as
a church.
Speaker 3 (31:38):
Yeah, what a good question.
A pastor once told me thatchurch history is the pastor's
best friend, and I think what hemeant by that is that for us
Christians today, we don't haveto figure all the lessons of
life out for ourselves for thevery first time.
Rather, there is a long historyof faithful Christians who have
(32:01):
come before us, who havewrestled with thought through
all kinds of theological,cultural, apologetic challenges,
and there's all kinds of wisdomto be had in studying what
they've said and learning fromtheir examples.
So that will be one thing,certainly as a source of wisdom
(32:21):
for us today.
I would also say it's animportant apologetic for
Christianity.
We don't believe thatChristianity began just with our
grandparents, but we believeChristianity has been around
since the time of Christ.
And so the question is how dowe get to our point here today?
How did the church?
What has the church beenthrough?
(32:42):
What have been the movements,the challenges?
How have we come to where weare today?
And that's an importantquestion for Christians to
understand about who they are.
It's sort of like learning yourfamily history.
So you've got to learnsomething about church history
to be able to better understandwho you are today and church
(33:05):
history.
And one more thing churchhistory certainly has been the
story of all kinds oftheological challenges.
The gospel that we hold todayagain didn't just drop out of
heaven in our time, but ratherhas been something that has been
sharpened and clarified overthe centuries, especially as
(33:28):
false teaching has come alongand those who have been faithful
to hold on to the scriptures asthe final authority have more
and more looked to thescriptures to see okay, what
does the Bible teach on thesethings?
And have clarified what it isthat we as the historic
Christian church believe.
And so, even as Baptists, westand in that stream of historic
(33:52):
Christianity, we stand in thatstream of Protestant
Christianity and we make ourcontribution, especially about
what the church is, you know,that community of baptized
believers.
So just to understand who weare in terms of what we believe,
I think church history is sohelpful in that.
(34:13):
So, yeah, so for all thosereasons pastoral wisdom as an
apologetic for Christianity andfor kind of theological training
I would say church history isvital for all that.
Speaker 1 (34:25):
Yeah, we do a men's Bible study on Thursday mornings
, that we've been going throughthe book of Acts and, and it's
been so helpful studying churchhistory, historical theology,
because there's moments in Actsthat there are some pivotal
moments to where you're like,why do we believe this over this
, and what time in churchhistory was that debate had and
(34:47):
where do we see, you know, youknow, especially in connection
with the Reformation?
And so I mean, there's all ofthat to discuss as you're
studying Acts and understandingwhy we do things the way we do
them today and seeing how theydid it in the early church.
And so, yeah, that's been veryhelpful.
It's added a layer to helpchallenge guys in their
understanding of God's Word, andthen how the church has handled
(35:09):
that throughout history isvital to the way we do things
today.
And so, yeah, thank you.
One last thing before we go.
You know why should maybe aprospective student come to
Midwestern?
I know why I did, but I want tohear from you why would?
Why would a student want to gothere?
Kind of what's a little bit ofthe vision of Midwestern that
(35:33):
that would say, hey, this is aplace for you.
Speaker 3 (35:37):
Yeah, you know, these days with online education
there are a lot of options.
I think there are benefits toonline education, especially if
you're in a good season of yourlife in your church and you know
your family set there.
It's difficult to move.
Online education can be a greatoption, especially alongside
(35:58):
kind of a vibrant ministry in alocal church.
That being said, I don't thinkthat it can replace or even, you
know, kind of quite match whatthe kind of education one can
get residentially.
If you're thinking abouttheological training, to be in a
classroom with a top notchprofessor, you're going to learn
(36:19):
things in that setting far morethan I think you will in an
online setting.
So for Midwestern, it's an houraway, as you said, from you
guys.
Perhaps that would beattractive for someone who's
thinking about theologicaltraining.
But even more, I mean the kindsof professors we have here are
all.
They're all top notch.
(36:42):
They are at the top of theirfields in theology and in
training in the Bible, languagesand church history and all the
rest.
I think one thing that I've beensuper encouraged by in terms of
Midwestern is this vision thatwe have about being for the
church.
That really does come out inall the classes.
You know we yes, it's importantto train people for the academy
(37:05):
.
Even so, we want those scholarsto have an eye towards serving
the local church.
But even more, I think we seeour primary ministry as training
for people, as pastors, aschurch leaders, as small group
leaders, as biblical counselors,as women's ministry directors,
(37:26):
so all the kinds of ministriesthat are embedded in the local
church, and so the teaching thatyou'll get here really will
have that as its aim.
Speaker 1 (37:35):
Yeah, yeah, so much more to say, but there you go.
Well you hit on it for me when Iheard Dr Jason Allen say this
is for the church, and then totake a couple classes and go
yeah, these classes are builtfor the church.
For me, to use it, it's notjust a slogan that's being
(37:56):
thrown out there to attractpeople, it's integrated into the
classes, into the teaching.
All the professors I've had,they're all serving in a local
church, whether that's thesenior pastor, it or as an elder
, and so you just have thatconnection the whole time as as
your to your professors and tothe local church, and so it's
not just a slogan, it's reallyhappening there.
(38:17):
Then that's what I've beenencouraged by to see that we
have another individual here atour church who's in the MDiv
program, now one of our deacons,and so, yeah, it's been.
It's been awesome to be able tosend people there and and to
trust it and to know who's thereand what's going on.
I love that there's multipleopportunities a year just to
(38:37):
come, visit and go to aconference, whatever that may be
, because then you get to hearfrom the professors themselves
and then a lot of guests as well.
So, yeah, so after that, leaveus.
Leave us with one thing, leaveus with your favorite Spurgeon
quote.
What's one of your favoritesthat he?
I know he's got tons.
He's the most quotable personever, but what's your favorite?
Speaker 3 (39:00):
Yeah, Favorite's really tough.
But here I'll read this quote.
Since we've been talking aboutprayer, I'll read a quote that
he says to his students at thepastors college.
He says this if I were you, Iwould make the prayer meeting a
special feature of my ministry.
Let it be such a prayer meetingthat there's not the like of it
(39:20):
within 7,000 miles.
Keep up the prayer meeting.
Whatever else flags.
It is the great businessevening of the week, the best
service between Sabbaths.
Be you sure to make it so Verygood, Very good.
Speaker 1 (39:34):
There you have it Well.
Thank you so much, Dr JeffChang, for joining us Again.
Go check out the Spurgeonlibrary.
Go check out Midwestern.
They also have their undergradin Spurgeon College.
There's plenty to check outthere.
All the links will be in thedescription to his book and all
of these things that we'vetalked about today.
So thank you so much.
It was an honor to have you onthe podcast and I know that our
(39:56):
church will especially enjoythis time to learn more about
God's Word and Spurgeon andspecifically around prayer.
So thank you again.
Yeah, you're very welcome.
Good to be with you guys.
Thank you so much.
Welcome to the Be Disciples podcast with heroes
Kyle Morris and David Glavin.
A few of our other guys are out.
We got Dakota Smith and Mexicowith a team on a mission trip.
We've got Chance Holler on amission trip, headed to Africa
today.
But today we have a specialguest with us.
We have Dr Jeff Chang fromMidwestern Baptist Theological
(00:31):
Seminary.
Welcome to the podcast.
Hey, so good to be with youguys.
Thanks for having me.
Yeah, it is awesome.
I've loved my time atMidwestern.
I was online most of the time,but I only live an hour away, so
I got to participate inconferences and really any
opportunity to come up there.
So thank you for all that youguys are doing there.
It's been awesome.
That's so good to hear.
(00:52):
Thank you, brother.
Yeah, I'm repping my sweatershirt today.
So, make sure we'll get enoughMidwestern publicity marketing,
but also, yeah, it's just been,it's been really fun.
So introduce yourself.
What's your role at Midwestern?
What are you doing there andtalk about?
Really your just your historyin the past or it, and then your
(01:14):
family?
Speaker 3 (01:16):
Yeah, so, jeff Chang.
I've been here at Midwesternfor four years.
I teach historical theology.
My official title is assistantprofessor of historical theology
.
I also teach church history,baptist history, it classes on
ecclesiology.
As I said, I've been here forfour years.
We before coming here, I was apastor in Portland, oregon,
(01:41):
where I served at Hinson BaptistChurch for 10 years as an
associate pastor.
Prior to that, I was at CapitolHill Baptist Church in
Washington DC, where I was apastoral assistant for a couple
of years.
Yeah, but now here in KansasCity, I'm an elder at Warnell
Road Baptist Church.
I'm married to Stephanie.
We have three kids.
What else Is that covered?
(02:03):
Is that covered at all?
Speaker 1 (02:04):
Yeah, no, certainly.
I mean you did leave out.
Curator of the Spurgeon.
Speaker 3 (02:08):
Library, Of course.
Speaker 1 (02:09):
I mean of course, that's a little bit important.
Speaker 3 (02:13):
Yeah, one of the amazing things that we have here
at Midwestern is CharlesSpurgeon's books are here,
kansas City, missouri.
Yeah, we have this beautifulspace built to house them, but
more than just sort of a museumfor you to walk through.
We also have a kind of agrowing research center centered
on Spurgeon scholarship.
(02:33):
So we have scholars visiting,accessing our resources.
Just this past fall we made ahuge acquisition, bringing over
from Spurgeon's College, uk,their collection of Spurgeon
materials, and so we.
It's just a phenomenalcollection that we have here at
Midwestern.
So it's a privilege for me toget to sort of steward that
(02:57):
think about how to use it foradvancing Spurgeon scholarship
but also for telling the storyof Spurgeon's life and ministry.
So if you're ever in the KansasCity area, do stop by the
Spurgeon Library.
We'd love to host you for avisit.
Speaker 1 (03:10):
Yeah, it's I.
Every time I'm on campus I walkin because I have to go and
just look around and spend alittle bit of time in there.
So, yeah, you have to check itout if you're on campus.
Don't don't miss out on that.
But before really we get intothe main topic, I do want to
make sure that I talk about yourbook.
Here we have a book that Ipre-ordered and read right away
(03:34):
Spurgeon the Pastor.
And so you've really taken adifferent look at Spurgeon,
where most really emphasize hispreaching, obviously because
that's what he was known for thePrince of Preachers.
And so tell us just a snippet,say somebody's listening to this
, and they're like who isSpurgeon?
I don't know that guy.
Just give us a brief overviewof Spurgeon and then tell us
(03:56):
about your book, what, whatreally gave you the vision to
write a book about Spurgeon thepastor and to kind of review
what he did as a shepherd of thechurch and as a leader?
Speaker 3 (04:07):
Yeah, yeah, charles Haddon Spurgeon.
He was a 19th century Baptistpastor, probably the most famous
preacher of the 19th century.
His sermons were sold by thetens of thousands, week by week.
He had a remarkable ministrythere in London, one that
reached really the whole world.
(04:27):
Out of his ministry came, as Isaid, thousands of sermons.
He founded an orphanage, hefounded the pastor's college.
He sent out members of hischurch to plant other churches,
to work with other missionaries,to pioneer different benevolent
works throughout London.
So really just a remarkableministry.
(04:51):
With all that being said, though, as a, as is the case with the
title of my book, what I wantedto highlight was just the fact
that fundamentally, he was apastor.
Yeah, he was not kind of a, asomebody occupying a preaching
station, he was not running aparaturch ministry.
At the end of the day he was alocal church pastor trying to be
(05:11):
faithful, care for hiscongregation, and that really
was the base, the foundationkind of, of everything else that
he did.
So my book, spurgeon the pastor, just takes a look at how he
pastored the largest kind ofmega church of the 19th century,
really the only one.
Speaker 1 (05:27):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (05:27):
A church that, by his death, had over 5,000 members.
But what's so remarkable aboutthat fact is he really meant to
be a faithful pastor.
So of those 5,000 members, hewanted to think about how to?
How to bring them in correctly.
You know, do things likemembership interviews, have the
congregation vote on eachapplication, examine each
(05:48):
candidate.
He, once he brought them intothe church, he and his elders
worked hard to keep track oftheir members, provide pastoral
care, do pastoral visitation.
You know, pursue members whowere sort of falling through the
cracks and they hadn't seen fora while.
They practiced things likechurch discipline and members
(06:10):
meetings.
They had prayer meetings andall kinds of other discipleship
structures in place andcertainly that church was an
amazing engine for gospelministry throughout the world.
So I tell that story in my booksSpurgeon the pastor.
It's so much fun to read,especially if you are yourself
somebody who's in the localchurch and you know all the
(06:31):
challenges that we face.
But to see Spurgeon try to befaithful in his challenging
context, I think it's superencouraging.
And really that's the heart ofmy book, wanting to emphasize
that past, all the amazing fruitand all the incredible numbers
of the things that heaccomplished.
Most of all, he was beingfaithful to his biblical and
(06:54):
theological convictions aboutwhat the church ought to be, and
that's, I think, the best modelwe can have for ourselves.
Not that we would everduplicate his ministry, but that
we would try to imitate hisfaithfulness.
And that's, I think, the gulfof the Christian life.
Speaker 1 (07:13):
Yeah, you certainly pointed out the principles that
we need to take from Spurgeon,biblical principles, and how he
put those into practice.
I remember you were speakingone time about some elder notes
that were written out about ameeting with a potential new
member and kind of their notes,taking notes on their thoughts,
(07:33):
on their understanding of thegospel.
Speaker 3 (07:35):
Yeah, the membership interviews, that's right
Membership interviews.
Speaker 1 (07:37):
have they really grasped this?
And that's something that hadbeen implemented here at our
church, but it was a good likereminder why we do them.
Sometimes they they can becomestale or routine and it's like
no, these are really importantand we need to make sure that
one we're connecting with thatindividual and making sure that
they they're saved, they knowthe gospel and they understand
what Jesus has done.
So that was just their freshreminders in this book.
(07:59):
Fresh reminders if you're beenin the pastorate for a long time
, it really helps.
Or if you're just entering in.
Why are all these thingsimportant?
Why do we do these practices?
Why did Spurgeon do them, andso you do a really good job
highlighting all those, whichwas very refreshing, kept kept
my eyes fresh on what was goingon in our church.
Speaker 2 (08:19):
So very good.
Speaker 1 (08:19):
Thank you for that.
Yeah, very welcome.
Yeah, if you want to check outhis book, I will put a link down
in the description of his bookwhere you can go.
You can purchase it.
But I recommend and also I'llput the Spurgeon Library in
Midwestern links down there soeverybody can go check it out.
Again, it's in Kansas City,Missouri, and if you're in the
(08:41):
area you have to go, you have tosee the campus.
It's beautiful, and check outthe Spurgeon Library and so
thank you for writing that book.
It's definitely spurred me onin this direction of Spurgeon on
Prayer, which is our main topicfor today.
Really focusing on his, on hispastorate and then how he led
his people in prayer.
So we've implemented a prayermeeting this last year.
(09:03):
I've read only a prayer meeting.
I read your book, some others,to just kind of stir the
understanding of why Spurgeondid prayer meetings and prayer
meetings aren't new, you know.
It's not like it's this newconcept revolutionary.
Let's do prayer meetings.
That's been around for a longtime where churches get together
and pray.
But there was, I think, someunique things about his prayer
(09:26):
meetings in his pastorate, whathe expected of his congregation
and to train them up inunderstanding why prayer is so
important.
So I you know all those thingsreally highlighted the purpose.
Hey, we need to focus on prayermeetings and we need to make it
a priority in our church topray together corporately.
And so really let's start there.
(09:50):
Spurgeon and the prayer meetingyou know what, when it came to
pastor in his church, why aprayer meeting and why was it so
important to him?
Speaker 3 (09:59):
Yeah, great question.
Certainly, as you said, prayermeetings have been around a long
time.
I would say they've been aroundsince the New Testament.
Yeah, we see the church inJerusalem.
There, you know, they veryquickly come under pressure from
the Pharisees not to preach thegospel anymore and Paul and
John are.
Peter and John are threatenedin that.
(10:20):
And so the believers gettogether and they pray and it
says there was a prayer meetingin Jerusalem that the room was
shaken and all those believerswere even more emboldened in the
preaching of the gospel.
So the early church is praying.
We see that example.
We see Paul's commands to prayto the church.
So it's no surprise thatthroughout church history, as
(10:41):
you said, churches have alwayscome together to pray, not just
individual prayer but corporateprayer, coming together to pray
as a congregation, as a church.
You know it's much more thanjust like an activity of the
church.
I mean it was part of ourphilosophy of ministry.
We believe that.
You know, we cannot coerceanyone to salvation.
(11:04):
We cannot manipulate anyone tomake a decision for Christ.
At the end of the day, the HolySpirit has to move.
The Holy Spirit has to openblind eyes, awaken dead hearts.
Salvation belongs to the Lord,and if we really believe that as
Christians, then we don't thinkthat.
You know, as good as I think mypreaching is, it's not good
(11:24):
enough to raise the dead rightIn fact I probably put some
people to sleep instead ofraising the dead in my preaching
.
So you know, my congregationneeds to understand that.
I certainly need to believethat, which means I need to urge
my people to pray.
You know, like, okay, I'm gonnado my best to preach faithful
(11:45):
sermons but at the end of theday we have to ask the Lord to
move.
If there's gonna be anyspiritual growth in our church,
if there's gonna be sinnersconverted, it's gonna be God's
work and he wants us to ask forit.
He doesn't want us to just kindof presume that it'll happen,
but we have to come to him independence, trusting him to work
(12:06):
.
And so a lot of young peoplethese days, like Spurgeon, would
hold to a Calvinistic theology,understanding that God is
sovereign in salvation.
I think that's wonderful, but Ithink most of all that ought to
be reflected in their prayerlives.
And a church can have all theCalvinistic doctrine that it
(12:29):
wants, but if it's not comingtogether to pray, then what's
the point of that theology?
Right?
So a prayer, coming togetherfor congregational prayer is a
part of your philosophy ofministry.
You preach the gospel and thenyou gather your people to pray.
And if you, spurgeon would say,if you're unhappy with your
(12:50):
preacher, if you're finding himdry and unfruitful and just
preaching, he would ask you well, are you praying for him?
Are you supporting him?
Are you lifting up his armslike Aaron and her lifting up
Moses' arms?
Are you supporting him inprayer?
And if not, then maybe theproblem is with you, maybe the
(13:14):
problem is with the congregation.
So yeah, it has to be part ofyour philosophy of ministry.
It also is so much kind of asign of health in the church.
It's striking to me as I readSpurgeon.
He would send his students offto plant churches and they would
often write back reports andone of the things that they
(13:36):
would report on, in addition tohow the church was growing, any
new conversions, baptisms, thosekinds of things but they would
also report how many people areshowing up to prayer meeting.
And I always thought that wasso striking because for Spurgeon
that was one of the bestindicators of the health of the
church, not just the size of it.
(13:57):
I mean, size is one thing,that's great, but how healthy is
that size?
Out of that 300 members areonly 10 people showing up to
pray.
What does that tell you aboutthe church?
So he really felt like to keepup the prayer meeting was a work
(14:19):
to instill in his people a deepdependence on the Lord and
understanding that they couldn'tdo this work of the ministry on
their own.
One of the best signs of healththen was that they would come
together to pray together to askthe Lord for help.
The church is not just this kindof he says.
(14:40):
The church is not just amachinery that you can keep
going.
You just do these structuresand everything just runs on its
own.
No, it's a living thing, it'san organism.
It needs life and that life isthe spirit.
And therefore, as Christians,we never just go about the work
of the church mechanically, asif we can just kind of keep it
(15:01):
running, but no, we come to theLord in prayer asking for his
help.
Two points there.
A lot more I could say.
I'll let you respond, yeah.
Speaker 1 (15:10):
I mean I grew up in Baptist churches, southern
Baptist churches, and I've seensuccess and then I've also seen
lukewarm places and any time itwas lukewarm and it was just
kind of going along in theroutine.
The prayer meetings were likefive people and they were just
(15:30):
getting together faithfullyevery week and in a room and
praying together.
And not that five peoplepraying for a church isn't going
to move God's heart.
God loves his church but itdefinitely was a sign of where
the people were at at that time.
And so going into this at ourchurch that's, I was like what's
this going to be like?
We've seen growth and it's beenreally awesome and people are
(15:55):
coming and we're preaching theword and it's just been a fun
time in ministry.
I mean four years ago thischurch was about 70 to 75 people
and now we're pushing 400.
And so it's just been anawesome thing to see people come
.
And so when I was like, OK,this prayer meeting's been on my
heart, it's been on my heartfor a year.
(16:15):
I've been praying, I've beenreading, I've been prepping,
that is kind of the fear likewho's going to come, who's going
to show up.
I want people to come because Iwant them to see God work.
And really by the second prayermeeting, kind of that shyness of
praying corporately, peoplespeaking and praying aloud, kind
of wore off.
And man, it was great to justhear the hearts of the people,
(16:38):
what God's been doing in theirlives, the needs of the church
praying for the lost.
Being able to come together anddo that has been fruitful
already.
So it's been great to see thatand so definitely been a fun
time watching the Lord work.
And so thank you for sharingthat.
But, David, I'm going to passit off to you.
(16:59):
I know you got a few questionson prayer in the church
specifically.
Speaker 2 (17:03):
Yeah, well, I had specifically a question going
off of the Spurgeon's insistenceupon and leading his church
into prayer and hosting prayermeetings.
In your study and yourunderstanding are there some
struggles.
What were some of the strugglesand successes or joys that came
(17:25):
out of that specifically inSpurgeon's ministry?
Where are there notes or thingsthat kind of show where he
struggled with leading thechurch in prayer and what are
maybe some successes and thingswhere that was successful?
Speaker 3 (17:44):
Yeah, I think every prayer meeting will have some
challenges.
I think in my book I talk abouta visitor from Boston going and
attending one of the prayermeetings there and him finding
the whole thing kind of dead,sort of just kind of going kind
of poorly.
And it wasn't until then.
(18:04):
Spurgeon kind of takes thereins of the prayer meeting and
leads out in a prayer thatthings really began to kind of
pick up.
But he gives a really dramatictelling of that story.
But I think not every prayermeeting will be so dramatic.
I think there would be prayermeetings where it's just great
you go there, you pray with thechurch, you pray for good things
(18:26):
, you're edified and then youwalk away having done good work.
It's not this sort of dramaticexperience necessarily, and I
think that's OK.
As the pastor, though, you willalways need to fight against
that kind of mechanical approachto prayer meetings and to the
church, reminding your peopleonce again why you do what you
do and putting the heart ofprayer into that prayer meeting.
(18:48):
Other struggles, I mean heoften talks to the students
about not letting people praytoo long.
I think earlier on, when hewould lead those prayer meetings
, you have some certain memberswho would just kind of ramble
and then they go.
They're praying out loud morefor their own sort of for their
own sakes, rather than thinkingabout the people that are there
(19:11):
with them, and so they carry ontoo long and it becomes
difficult and burdensome forthose who are attending.
So Spurgeon says cut thosepeople off.
You can't let them dominate themeeting.
You have to help them, right?
I think Spurgeon also was verycareful to curate the kinds of
(19:31):
things that they were prayingfor.
I think sometimes people wantto bring very personal kind of
individualized prayer requeststo the prayer meeting.
But Spurgeon always made surethat there was a sense of
urgency about what was beingprayed for and an understanding
of why these things matteredspiritually.
He would particularly emphasizeministry opportunities that the
(19:52):
church had.
He would invite folks from theorphanage or from the various
evangelistic ministries or theywould pray for their students
that were being sent out.
Those kinds of things were atthe heart of what he prayed for.
Yeah, in terms of the successes,it's just remarkable that every
week thousands turned out topray.
(20:14):
With the congregation so large,clearly not everybody could
pray out loud, but still, incoming together and being led in
prayer, they found that to beedifying and needed for the life
of the church.
And there will be many reportsof people who said, man, like
(20:34):
you know, I loved hearingSpurgeon preach on Sunday, but
it was coming to that prayermeeting on Monday.
That really left an impression,you know, and many of these
people who, visitors whoattended the Monday night prayer
meeting, would walk awayconvinced that they needed to do
that in their own churches also.
You know something like that.
So the influence of that Mondaynight prayer meeting from the
(20:56):
Metropolitan Tabernacle was apowerful thing in its own right.
Yeah, I've had to think about.
Speaker 1 (21:02):
You know Spurgeon's cultural context you know, when
he was doing this.
You know he was somebody peoplewanted to come see, whether they
were Christians or not.
Spurgeon had a reputation ofhis preaching.
People wanted to come listenand that was great.
They came and heard the gospel.
But today we have differenttypes of distractions of life.
(21:23):
You know Spurgeon, you knowtalks about the different vices
of life, you know alcoholism andthings that people are getting
into, spending time at the bars,which we still have that today.
But now we have these devicesin our hands.
We have all these things tolike keep us busy and which I
feel like over time has causedlike, well, let's do less
services at the church.
Well, let's do less things.
(21:44):
And it's kind of allowed for theprayer meeting to slip in some
places or for these things thatSpurgeon instituted that weren't
programs.
They were things dedicated tothe Lord, for his glory and to
bring people into relationshipwith God, and so, yeah, I've
kind of had to like weavethrough, like what is?
He had difficulties in certainthings and then now today we're
(22:04):
going to have to navigate thatas the, as the pastorate, to say
you know, these are things weneed to be disciplined in our
walk with the Lord and prayer isa part of the that discipline
and and then pastoring thechurch, shepherding them in that
direction.
To say prayer is important andwe need to get rid of some of
those other things in order topray and not that those things
(22:26):
are always bad, but but we needto evaluate the priority of our
life and I feel like Spurgeondid a good job of like you need
to be here on Monday, right?
There's no excuse not to be hereon Monday night to pray with
the church and he almost kind ofhad that in his, in his sermons
.
You kind of felt that like, ohman, he's really shepherding the
church to come and to listenand to participate, to be
(22:48):
discipled and then to go serveand to go evangelize.
And you, just, you, just, inthe words that he's preaching,
you could, you could tell thatthat's how he was shepherding
and that was awesome to see.
And I try to evaluate myself inthat way as much as possible,
because that's what I wantpeople to do I want them to
continue to grow on their walkwith the Lord.
And Spurgeon had that and thatwas the shepherding, the
(23:09):
pasturing part of his, even inhis preaching.
You could, you could read thatin his sermons.
Speaker 3 (23:14):
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
John Calvin talks about prayerbeing the chief expression of
faith.
If the primary way we expressour faith in Christ is through
prayer, then coming together topray as a church is the most
fitting thing we could do rightCongregationally.
Certainly we do that in thecontext of our Sunday morning
(23:37):
gatherings and we can do that inour small groups, but to come
together for a meeting devotedto prayer, yeah, I think that's
a powerful thing.
I think something uniquehappens in that kind of context
it not only grows our trust inLord, but it knits the people
together Now, as we seek theLord together in prayer.
Speaker 2 (23:57):
We've talked about Spurgeon's leadership and
leading the church into prayerand the importance of prayer in
the church.
Are there any insights that youcan give on Spurgeon's personal
prayer life and how heexemplified that?
Speaker 3 (24:12):
Yeah, not a ton.
I mean meaning he was veryprivate about his prayers.
I think he took Jesus commandsthere in Matthew six seriously
right that he kept privateprayer private.
So I mean, examples of thatwould be that he was often
(24:33):
reluctant.
People wanted to publish hisprayers but he often kind of
refused to do so.
I think it was only until afterhis death that his son
published a volume of hisprayers, of his Sunday morning
prayers, and you can purchasethat volume.
When he wrote a volume on familyworship, his publishers wanted
(24:56):
him to include prayers in thosekind of daily devotionals and he
again refused.
He just thought people need tolearn to pray with their own
words.
They don't need me writingtheir prayers for them.
So he very much saw prayer,especially private prayer, as
something not to be rehearsedbut something that we could very
(25:18):
spontaneously do before theLord, pouring our hearts out.
One of the things that we havehere in the Spurgeon Library is
a volume, a notebook, ofhandwritten poems by Spurgeon,
unpublished, handwritten kind ofprivate devotional poems and,
lord willing, in May this willbe released so you can be on the
(25:39):
lookout for that.
It's going to be called ChristAre All, but these are just
Spurgeon's own privatedevotional poems never before
published.
That's awesome Coming out forthe first time this spring, so
we've transcribed them.
B&h Academic is publishing them.
But these 180-something poems,all kind of showing kind of his
(26:01):
heart before the Lord, hisconfession of sin, his feeling
of weakness, his times of joys,his earnestness in the ministry,
all these things come out inthese poems which are, I think,
a reflection of his prayer life,and what you get is just
(26:22):
striking this man who walkedbefore the Lord, who, as much as
he talked about dependence onthe Lord in public, you see that
showing up in private also.
So yeah, so much we could sayabout that.
But I commend that volume ofpoems to you.
Yeah, coming out this May.
Speaker 1 (26:40):
Yeah, that's awesome.
I mean I can't imagine he wroteso much and he had time to
write 180 poems.
So obviously that was probablyvery private, something he did
more for himself, between himand the Lord.
You know that was something hepracticed, but that gives us
insight.
He spent time in prayer andthen he wrote things down, you
(27:04):
know, in poem form, andexpressed his relationship with
the Lord through that, andobviously we see that in the
Psalms.
I mean, we see poems, songswritten to the Lord, and so that
was a practice for a reallylong time.
But we see Spurgeon copying thethings that are in Scripture
and then implementing that intohis daily devotion and then into
(27:27):
his pastorate and leading thepeople.
And so, yeah, that's amazing.
I know, david, you also had anemphasis on family you know,
Spurgeon devotions.
You even mentioned that familyworship or family devotion in
prayer.
What was Spurgeon's instructionon that?
I know he wrote a lot ofdevotion.
We have a lot of devotionstoday that are Spurgeon's works
(27:49):
that we use individually and inthe homes.
But what was his counsel, hisleadership in making sure
families were discipling,parents were discipling their
kids in the home.
Being in the Word, what was hismessage on that?
Speaker 3 (28:06):
Yeah, family worship was an important institution for
him and his household.
He was, you know, very much apeer attendant.
In that sense he would lead hisfamily in worship twice a day,
once in the morning, once in theevening.
I get the sense that they keptthose meetings pretty simple.
(28:27):
He would often lead them, hewould lead in prayer, they would
sing a hymn and then he wouldread a passage of Scripture and
as he read that passage ofScripture he would comment on it
, looking for little teachingopportunities, and that would be
about it.
I would get the sense that theywould that each meeting would
take maybe 30 minutes, maybeless, just a brief time to
(28:51):
gather the house together andlead them in some spiritual
reflection and prayer andworship and reading of Scripture
.
So, yeah, I think he wouldencourage families to do that,
to be consistent in that.
He would encourage fathers tolead in that and not to go
(29:12):
overboard with those things, butjust to be consistent in them
and seek to edify and challengethose who are in your house.
Speaker 1 (29:20):
Yeah, and it's awesome to know that he was.
That was a time that he stuckwith.
It didn't matter who was at hishouse, but the time of day, hey
, we're going to be in prayerand in the Word, and that's what
we do here and it's interestingto read his sons.
Speaker 3 (29:37):
They always talk very positively about their father,
charles Jr and Thomas, and theyexplicitly talk about how those
times of family worship wereactually really sweet.
As young boys they enjoyedthose times.
I don't get the sense thatSpurgeon was ever boring or
really stiff and formal in thosetimes of family worship, but it
was very warm.
He wouldn't mind using humor.
(29:58):
He used humor.
He was such a fun personalityto be with and certainly when it
comes to family worship I thinkhe kept an appropriate kind of
familial tone to it so that hisboys could look back on those
times and really reallyappreciate them.
Speaker 1 (30:16):
Yeah, it's great to see the example of a pastor, a
pastor in his family, leadinghis family in prayer, taking
care of his home.
We know that Spurgeon was abusy man.
At a certain point he becameextremely busy but, making sure
that his wife and his childrenknew who Jesus was, spent time
(30:36):
in the Word with him, and that'sa reminder for us as pastors.
We can't forget our ministry athome and we can't neglect it,
because that will definitelynegatively impact our church.
And so Spurgeon did that in thehome, in private.
People were at his house, hedisplayed that and that's really
important for us.
And so I kind of want totransition here, kind of as
(30:59):
we're winding down, as we landthe plane.
We've been talking aboutSpurgeon.
If you mentioned John Calvin,we have tons of individuals in
church history that we look toMartin Luther, svingli, I mean,
we could go, you could just namethem, you could rattle them off
.
But from your perspective as aprofessor of historical theology
(31:22):
, as we look at the past, why dowe need to know about these
guys?
Like, what's important for usas the church to study them, to
learn from them?
Like, why do we do it?
What makes it an importantpiece of the way we function as
a church.
Speaker 3 (31:38):
Yeah, what a good question.
A pastor once told me thatchurch history is the pastor's
best friend, and I think what hemeant by that is that for us
Christians today, we don't haveto figure all the lessons of
life out for ourselves for thevery first time.
Rather, there is a long historyof faithful Christians who have
(32:01):
come before us, who havewrestled with thought through
all kinds of theological,cultural, apologetic challenges,
and there's all kinds of wisdomto be had in studying what
they've said and learning fromtheir examples.
So that will be one thing,certainly as a source of wisdom
(32:21):
for us today.
I would also say it's animportant apologetic for
Christianity.
We don't believe thatChristianity began just with our
grandparents, but we believeChristianity has been around
since the time of Christ.
And so the question is how dowe get to our point here today?
How did the church?
What has the church beenthrough?
(32:42):
What have been the movements,the challenges?
How have we come to where weare today?
And that's an importantquestion for Christians to
understand about who they are.
It's sort of like learning yourfamily history.
So you've got to learnsomething about church history
to be able to better understandwho you are today and church
(33:05):
history.
And one more thing churchhistory certainly has been the
story of all kinds oftheological challenges.
The gospel that we hold todayagain didn't just drop out of
heaven in our time, but ratherhas been something that has been
sharpened and clarified overthe centuries, especially as
(33:28):
false teaching has come alongand those who have been faithful
to hold on to the scriptures asthe final authority have more
and more looked to thescriptures to see okay, what
does the Bible teach on thesethings?
And have clarified what it isthat we as the historic
Christian church believe.
And so, even as Baptists, westand in that stream of historic
(33:52):
Christianity, we stand in thatstream of Protestant
Christianity and we make ourcontribution, especially about
what the church is, you know,that community of baptized
believers.
So just to understand who weare in terms of what we believe,
I think church history is sohelpful in that.
(34:13):
So, yeah, so for all thosereasons pastoral wisdom as an
apologetic for Christianity andfor kind of theological training
I would say church history isvital for all that.
Speaker 1 (34:25):
Yeah, we do a men's Bible study on Thursday mornings
, that we've been going throughthe book of Acts and, and it's
been so helpful studying churchhistory, historical theology,
because there's moments in Actsthat there are some pivotal
moments to where you're like,why do we believe this over this
, and what time in churchhistory was that debate had and
(34:47):
where do we see, you know, youknow, especially in connection
with the Reformation?
And so I mean, there's all ofthat to discuss as you're
studying Acts and understandingwhy we do things the way we do
them today and seeing how theydid it in the early church.
And so, yeah, that's been veryhelpful.
It's added a layer to helpchallenge guys in their
understanding of God's Word, andthen how the church has handled
(35:09):
that throughout history isvital to the way we do things
today.
And so, yeah, thank you.
One last thing before we go.
You know why should maybe aprospective student come to
Midwestern?
I know why I did, but I want tohear from you why would?
Why would a student want to gothere?
Kind of what's a little bit ofthe vision of Midwestern that
(35:33):
that would say, hey, this is aplace for you.
Speaker 3 (35:37):
Yeah, you know, these days with online education
there are a lot of options.
I think there are benefits toonline education, especially if
you're in a good season of yourlife in your church and you know
your family set there.
It's difficult to move.
Online education can be a greatoption, especially alongside
(35:58):
kind of a vibrant ministry in alocal church.
That being said, I don't thinkthat it can replace or even, you
know, kind of quite match whatthe kind of education one can
get residentially.
If you're thinking abouttheological training, to be in a
classroom with a top notchprofessor, you're going to learn
(36:19):
things in that setting far morethan I think you will in an
online setting.
So for Midwestern, it's an houraway, as you said, from you
guys.
Perhaps that would beattractive for someone who's
thinking about theologicaltraining.
But even more, I mean the kindsof professors we have here are
all.
They're all top notch.
(36:42):
They are at the top of theirfields in theology and in
training in the Bible, languagesand church history and all the
rest.
I think one thing that I've beensuper encouraged by in terms of
Midwestern is this vision thatwe have about being for the
church.
That really does come out inall the classes.
You know we yes, it's importantto train people for the academy
(37:05):
.
Even so, we want those scholarsto have an eye towards serving
the local church.
But even more, I think we seeour primary ministry as training
for people, as pastors, aschurch leaders, as small group
leaders, as biblical counselors,as women's ministry directors,
(37:26):
so all the kinds of ministriesthat are embedded in the local
church, and so the teaching thatyou'll get here really will
have that as its aim.
Speaker 1 (37:35):
Yeah, yeah, so much more to say, but there you go.
Well you hit on it for me when Iheard Dr Jason Allen say this
is for the church, and then totake a couple classes and go
yeah, these classes are builtfor the church.
For me, to use it, it's notjust a slogan that's being
(37:56):
thrown out there to attractpeople, it's integrated into the
classes, into the teaching.
All the professors I've had,they're all serving in a local
church, whether that's thesenior pastor, it or as an elder
, and so you just have thatconnection the whole time as as
your to your professors and tothe local church, and so it's
not just a slogan, it's reallyhappening there.
(38:17):
Then that's what I've beenencouraged by to see that we
have another individual here atour church who's in the MDiv
program, now one of our deacons,and so, yeah, it's been.
It's been awesome to be able tosend people there and and to
trust it and to know who's thereand what's going on.
I love that there's multipleopportunities a year just to
(38:37):
come, visit and go to aconference, whatever that may be
, because then you get to hearfrom the professors themselves
and then a lot of guests as well.
So, yeah, so after that, leaveus.
Leave us with one thing, leaveus with your favorite Spurgeon
quote.
What's one of your favoritesthat he?
I know he's got tons.
He's the most quotable personever, but what's your favorite?
Speaker 3 (39:00):
Yeah, Favorite's really tough.
But here I'll read this quote.
Since we've been talking aboutprayer, I'll read a quote that
he says to his students at thepastors college.
He says this if I were you, Iwould make the prayer meeting a
special feature of my ministry.
Let it be such a prayer meetingthat there's not the like of it
(39:20):
within 7,000 miles.
Keep up the prayer meeting.
Whatever else flags.
It is the great businessevening of the week, the best
service between Sabbaths.
Be you sure to make it so Verygood, Very good.
Speaker 1 (39:34):
There you have it Well.
Thank you so much, Dr JeffChang, for joining us Again.
Go check out the Spurgeonlibrary.
Go check out Midwestern.
They also have their undergradin Spurgeon College.
There's plenty to check outthere.
All the links will be in thedescription to his book and all
of these things that we'vetalked about today.
So thank you so much.
It was an honor to have you onthe podcast and I know that our
(39:56):
church will especially enjoythis time to learn more about
God's Word and Spurgeon andspecifically around prayer.
So thank you again.
Yeah, you're very welcome.
Good to be with you guys.
Thank you so much.
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