May 15, 2024 • 36 mins
Discover the keys to standing out in the competitive note investing market as Dan Deppen and I, Justin Bogard, share a treasure trove of experiences that have shaped our professional journeys. From the subtleties of maintaining professionalism to the art of scaling a business, our conversation traverses the landscape of performing notes, the current market's heartbeat. And because life isn't all spreadsheets and interest rates, we also celebrate our love for the lighter things – sports, golf, and the unexpected life lessons from Brazilian jiu-jitsu.
The note business is a complex dance of trust, communication, and reputation. Dan and I dissect this intricate ballet, discussing the consequences of slipping up and the power of transparency. We highlight the underappreciated art of due diligence and how it can be the difference between a deal turning sour or sweet. As we navigate the importance of establishing genuine industry connections, we reveal how professionalism is not just good business sense; it's the currency of long-term success in this niche field.
Wrapping up our insightful exchange, Dan and I reflect on the friendships forged in the fires of financial dealings. We underscore the necessity of being principled in transactions, the significance of verifying asset ownership, and the security that comes with trusted escrow services. As we bid farewell, we leave listeners with anecdotes of personal pursuits that give us balance and joy, painting a full picture of the lives we lead beyond the notes and numbers. Join us for a discussion that's as enriching as it is enlightening, and walk away with a new perspective on the fine line between personal passions and professional prowess.
Resources and links discussed:
- Videocast on our YouTube Channel
- ANB Funds Website - https://anbfunds.com
- Connect with Dan: www.fusionnotes.com/listeners
- Fusion Notes YouTube channel: https://www.youtube.com/fusionnotes
- Note Investor Podcast: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/the-note-investor-podcast/id1480182717
About the Host:
Justin Bogard – Note Investor specializing in performing Residential Real Estate Debt. He finds deals and acquires them for his own portfolio as well as educates investors while walking them through the process of owning a Real Estate Note!
Connect with the Host:
Facebook - bethebank
Twitter - bethebank1
Instagram - bethebankpodcast
American Note Buyers - https://anbfunds.com/
Monthly Broadcast - https://youtube.com/playlist?list=PLzc944w1xydt5aLDrrEPHJhdJeDkBjjD4
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Narrator (00:38):
Thank you, hey listener.
Now here's your host, justinBogard.
Justin Bogard (00:47):
Hey listener, welcome to another episode on
the Be the Bank podcast.
This is episode number 10 ofseason six.
Today I have a guest, mr DanDeppin.
He's a friend of mine.
He's been in the note businessabout as long as I have and
today we're really going to beatup the topic of professionalism
in our industry and we have alot of experience between the
both of us and dealing withdifferent people and the
(01:09):
corporate backgrounds that weboth come from.
So you guys can enjoy thisconversation.
Stay tuned.
Denver, dan Deppin, how youdoing?
You like that.
The three D's.
(01:29):
You're the three D man.
Dan Deppen (01:31):
I've never been called that before.
I've been called other things,but yeah.
Justin Bogard (01:35):
I just made that up.
I don't know.
I just I'm weird like that man.
I come up with littlecatchphrases and those things
really quickly and they stick.
So hopefully people like itwhen they're received.
Dan Deppen (01:44):
Yeah, maybe it they stick, so hopefully people like
it when they're received.
Yeah, maybe it'll stick.
Justin Bogard (01:47):
Yeah, so yeah, you're from Denver.
You're got your swag on thererepresenting your team.
The old Denver nuggets outthere with the Joker.
That's taken over.
Taken over the game against theTimberwolves.
Dan Deppen (01:58):
Yeah, it's playoff season.
Justin Bogard (01:59):
Yeah.
Rough start against theTimberwolves but they're coming
back a little, so we'll see.
Yeah, we're recording thisactually the day before this
comes out, so this actually willair tomorrow.
So this is going to be freshnew content.
But yeah, so I'm in Indiana,I'm a Pacer fan.
The Pacers are in the secondround as well, going against the
Knicks, so the series is tied2-2.
(02:20):
And obviously Dan's out thererepresenting Denver and his team
is.
They're tied as well.
Dan Deppen (02:26):
2-2, right, 2-2, yeah, yeah, they dropped the
first two home games and thenwon the next two and caught it
up.
Justin Bogard (02:32):
It usually doesn't work like that.
Like our series both teams arewinning the home games, and then
your series both teams arewinning the away games.
Dan Deppen (02:40):
And what was weird was the first two games the
Nuggets didn't just lose, theygot blown out.
So I don't know what's beengoing on, but hopefully they
fixed whatever that was my auntand uncle live out there in
Denver, so they're Denver fansas well.
Justin Bogard (02:55):
of all the teams Avalanche, broncos, nuggets and
the Rockies.
Dan Deppen (03:04):
Yeah, the Rockies are pretty awful, from what I
understand.
Justin Bogard (03:06):
I just like it because people can just hit home
, runs out there because the airair so much thinner.
Dan Deppen (03:11):
Yeah, I play a lot of golf and it's definitely also
a fun place to play golf.
Yeah, it goes a lot further.
Justin Bogard (03:18):
Okay, so my my experience in Denver.
I'm kind of spoiled, so I'vebeen to Vail to go skiing and
then I also played at I thinkit's called Castle Rock, the
course.
Oh, castle Pines, castle Pines,yeah, which is in Castle Rock,
I believe.
Yeah, yeah, so that's my kindof experience out there.
So I think I've kind of touchedon the lavishness of Denver
(03:40):
there.
Dan Deppen (03:40):
That's cool.
I've definitely skied Vail vale.
I've never played castle pines,though, so you're ahead of me
on that one there's one hole.
Justin Bogard (03:46):
It's a par four and it's a drivable par four,
but you wouldn't.
You wouldn't think that,because the length I think it's
like 450 yards, so like straightdownhill or something.
Dan Deppen (03:56):
Straight downhill, yeah yeah, the other place to go
if you want to have fun is playgolf at uh, I believe it's
called eagle vale golf club, soit's up at vale, so you're
actually much higher.
Yeah, in denver or castle rockand all the t-boxes are like
artificially elevated, it's likeit's riding only, and they
drive you like way up, so you'renot only playing at like 8 000
or 8 500 feet, but you'rehitting way downhill, so it's
(04:18):
like playing on the moon.
Justin Bogard (04:19):
The ball doesn't come down I just hope it it goes
straight yeah.
Dan Deppen (04:25):
If it's offline, it's not stopping.
Yeah, it's not findable.
Justin Bogard (04:28):
No, you might hit , hit a house and then two
neighborhoods away, yeah, thenext town.
Yeah, all right, dan.
So you've been on my showbefore when it was the previous
iteration called the two wealthshow, and you haven't been on a
while.
So I just want to reintroduceyou to the audience.
Dan Deppen (04:49):
I'll let you kind of tell your quick little story
there and kind of how youstarted in the note business and
kind of what you're doing today, yeah, sounds good.
So I started in notes in 2017and then scaled up fairly
rapidly.
Then did it full-time for acouple of years in there and
then went back to having a W-2for a couple of years.
But when I was doing the W2, Iwas still doing a lot of notes
(05:09):
on the side and then, you know,earlier this year I left that
again.
So back to full-time notes.
Um, I've been doing notes thewhole time, um, but I've just
gone through, you know, periodsof bearing busyness with day
jobs.
But, yeah, I've been at it forseveral years now and, you know,
(05:30):
this year really focused ongrowing.
So I bought a decent number ofnotes so far this year and look
to be acquiring more soon.
Justin Bogard (05:40):
Are you buying non-performing, performing,
mixed bag of both?
Dan Deppen (05:44):
I'm buying both.
It's predominantly performingOkay, although I did buy a
couple of non-performingperforming mixed bag of both.
I'm buying both.
It's predominantly performingOkay, although I did buy a
couple of non-performers thisyear, which these days I just
don't see as many of them.
The price is about the same.
Yeah, so a couple of years agoI really moved mostly to
performing notes.
Yeah, because the spreadbetween a performing and
non-performing note tightened tothe point where I didn't see
(06:04):
the point and messing with thenon-performing.
So they've been a little fewerand farther between.
I'd say my specialty is kind ofwhat I call sub-performing.
There are a lot of loans outthere that are cash flowing.
The borrower makes payments butthey don't necessarily make
them reliably every month.
So they'll make a couple, missone or two, maybe make a double
payment.
But I like those because overthe course of a year you're
(06:27):
going to get 11 or 12 payments.
So on a yearly basis thecashflow nice.
Just on a monthly basis it'ssporadic.
You can get better pricing onthose.
So those are kind of what I'vebeen focused on mostly.
Justin Bogard (06:41):
I'm glad you said that, because I think that's a
missed opportunity with peoplein our business is that they
they're so, they're so enamoredwith having a loan that's paying
perfectly and paying, you know,at the first of the month, on
time.
And they don't understand.
This is an imperfect world withimperfect inventory that we
have.
We're not buying, you know, a$700,000 mortgage in a high-end
(07:02):
neighborhood the north side ofIndianapolis.
It's like you're not going tohave a 3% interest rate.
You're not going to getpayments coming in like that.
It's going to be a little bitdifferent.
You have to be a little bitflexible with it.
It may come in the first, itmay come in before the first or
it may come in nine days afterthe first.
Dan Deppen (07:19):
That's why you can get the higher yields right.
If you could buy those otherpristine loans you're going to
be getting, I don't know whatit'd be these days six or 7%,
something like that, which mostpeople aren't happy with.
So there's no free lunch, sosomething to give.
Justin Bogard (07:33):
No, free lunch, I like that, but yeah, so did you
start a fund?
Dan Deppen (07:38):
No, I didn't.
I left with starting one acouple of years ago and that was
like I think that was likeright around like the onset of
COVID and you know the challengewith the fund was finding the
right portfolio at the rightprice to like kind of get it off
the ground and I was working onthat and then, like right
(07:58):
around when, like COVID brokeloose, investors got super
scared, just like everybodyclamped down, and so I haven't
gone back to that.
I may pick that up at some point.
Although I've got a pretty goodsystem for managing what I have
now, and while I'm buying moreloans and definitely growing,
(08:19):
I'm not the kind of guy that'strying to manage a thousand
loans or something like thatYou're not this guy over here.
No, I've got.
I've got my sweet spot andwhere I'm trying to hit.
Justin Bogard (08:30):
So yeah, I, I did stumble into wanting to get a
fund.
So Richard and I my my oldbusiness partner Richard he's
retired now we set up a fundlast year over a year ago and so
we.
It's a smaller fund, it's onlya $10 million fund and so we are
buying all performing.
It's a 506B.
So we just bought allperforming loans and we've
(08:52):
probably gotten I don't know, Ithink I've bought 16 so far in a
year.
So it's cashflow and prettygood.
But you know, we're prettypicky with the loans that we buy
because obviously we want ourinvestors to continue to get
paid and obviously us make moneyon the backside as well.
But it's been interesting.
It's a big learning curve.
Accounting was definitelysomething that I had to stay on
(09:16):
top of and make sure it was setup correctly.
But after it was set upcorrectly it runs fairly smooth.
And then every now and then youmight get a borrower that just
balks on a payment and just kindof move the needle in the right
direction and maybe get anattorney letter involved to
scare somebody.
But it doesn't happen veryoften.
Like, maybe like two or threeloans have kind of gotten behind
a little bit, but they've alsogotten caught back up as well.
So it's it's worked out prettygood in our fund so far.
So not sure what the futureholds for it.
(09:37):
We may dabble in somenon-performing commercial maybe
next year or the year after, and.
But you know, the capitalraising is the biggest challenge
for me.
It's just because you know whenyou're trying to run the fund
and you're doing it, you knowkind of all on your own, so to
speak.
Without you know employees andjust relying on some vendors.
It's just tough to manage allthat expectation of running the
(10:01):
operations and raising theprivate capital.
So it's like you have to setaside time of when you raise
private capital and events anddoing, you know, webinars and
things like that.
Dan Deppen (10:09):
Yeah, it's tough, and so it sounds like you did
the B fund so you can donon-accredited investors.
That's nice, that makes life alittle bit easier it does.
Justin Bogard (10:18):
We had a pretty good database pool between
Richard and I and so we wereable to to make connections and
reconnect with people from ourour database and that's, that's
already new us to get startedwith our funds.
We definitely had a good baseto go to to start off with, and
then it's just, you know,reaching out to new people and
having them learn about what wedo and stuff, and then
introducing the fund to them ata later point.
Dan Deppen (10:38):
So yeah, my challenge was just looking at
the operational costs of runningit and all the legal costs and
I was like, well, to have itmake sense.
You know, I had to come out thegate like at a certain size,
and it was just difficult to geteverything aligned.
I didn't want to kind of rampit up slowly and almost treat it
(10:59):
as a loss leader till I got toa certain scale, because I can
still fund deals, you know, withthe certain individuals that I
work with.
So, yeah, so so far I haven'tbeen driven to that model just
yet.
Justin Bogard (11:11):
Well, if you need need some advice on what not to
do, I can.
I can help you with that.
Okay, I might take you up onthat.
Well, dan, today's I thought itwould be fun to talk about
professionalism and we talkedabout that in the little opener
there, and so in my experience,I've been doing this full time
since 2016.
(11:34):
I started off as someone thatdidn't have a lot of money in
this business and so I would bethe guy that kind of has the
hustle and I would find the dealand I'd put the deal in front
of somebody and I've kind oflearned some things what buyers
are looking for, what sellersare looking to do.
And in the process of learningthings what, what buyers are
looking for, what sellers arelooking to do and in the process
of learning things, I've I'vealso seen how I stood out from
other people and I would getthis feedback from people on
saying, like gosh, you know youactually do what you say you're
going to do and you know you,you wear, you know you dress the
(11:59):
part.
I guess I would say verballyand you know physically, dress
the part.
And so I, and so I I kept thatin the back of my mind going
okay, is this?
Am I like the only one that'sdoing this, or is it just a lot
of people that are out therethat are just bad actors and
posers and so?
And so I think it's the latterof the two, where there's just
there's just people out therethat are just lazy about this
(12:20):
stuff, and I just find it soirritating that you you can make
a pretty good spread on acommission if you find a tape
and flip it to somebody, or ifyou find a deal and you're able
to make some money on it, we'llbe called flipping a note and
you're making a pretty, prettysizable you know, a few thousand
bucks maybe on on a note thatyou're flipping, but you know
you're not having to put a lotof hours into it.
(12:40):
But at the same time, you knowI still understand why people
are so lazy about stuff, likeyou know, with information, like
emails, and being lazy about it, and we're typing it from their
phone and you can tell thatthey're mistyping things and
it's just, I don't know littlenuances like that.
They just irritate the crap outof me.
Dan Deppen (12:57):
I'm not sure how you feel about that, but um, yeah,
I mean, I see a lot of that samestuff out there.
Yeah, I mean, it's always achallenge, right, like there's,
there's the folks who are, youknow, some of them are just bad
actors, and then they're theones who are a little bit lazy
and kind of difficult to workwith.
(13:18):
The good thing about that,though, is it's a small industry
and it still kind of surprisesme some of the bad behavior I've
seen.
Like when I started in notes, Iknew it's a small industry and
it still kind of surprises mesome of the bad behavior I've
seen.
Like when I started in notes, Iknew it was a small industry
and I just kind of assumed thatthat would enforce good behavior
, and I realized, like you can'tmake that assumption, but the
glasses have full view on thatis, if you are very reliable,
(13:43):
you know that gives you a bigadvantage, right.
So, like, some of the bestdeals that I've had that I've
bought were from my network,where they just called me, and
those notes didn't even reallyhit the market because they knew
if something fit my buy box andthere was nothing super wrong
with it, there wasn't some titleflaw or whatever.
That would close on it, youknow, pretty quickly and
(14:06):
reliably.
So you know it's annoying tohave to deal with that stuff.
The advantage is it becomes alittle bit easier to kind of
stand out from the crowd.
Justin Bogard (14:16):
Yeah, and I say that not to introduce more
competition for you.
There's just not going to becompetition because there's just
too much inventory out there.
So, if anything, you know,we're just encouraging people to
do things the right way becausethere are and we can probably
name a few names, and we couldprobably name the first two
names that come to our head areprobably the same ones in this
industry that are just a problem.
Yeah, and we're not going tosay that on the over the air
(14:38):
here, but we're just going tosay like and the people that are
not doing this the right wayare the ones that are basically
screwing over people and notdoing what they say that they're
going to do.
They get blacklisted reallyquickly and it's not the gossip
isn't intentional to be gossip,it's just like, hey, I did this
deal with this one company orthis one person.
(15:00):
This is what happened to me inmy experience.
And they said, okay, I'm gladthat you said that, because I'm
getting ready to do duediligence on a file with that
person or that company.
And now I know to keep my eyesopen to make sure that you know,
I'm checking all my boxes andmaking sure I'm doing due
diligence on them.
You know some of these peopleor these companies.
They don't have liquidity andthey don't tell you they have.
(15:22):
They don't have liquidity untilyou get to the 11th hour, when
they're wondering why they can'tfund a deal.
Dan Deppen (15:31):
Yeah, it's kind of insane right and it's funny,
especially if you could go to alive event.
You'll learn all kinds of stuffthat's going on in the industry
.
I know, like me, I'll haveconversations face-to-face or on
or on the phone.
That was stuff.
Information I'm not necessarilygoing to throw into emails or
or other places.
Justin Bogard (15:50):
Yeah, there's a time and place for it.
Like, if someone has a casualconversation with me, I can just
tell my experience.
I'm going to be like, hey, thiscould have been something where
it was just me and it's justthe transaction I had with them,
but I'm just going to sharewith you what happened to me.
So hopefully your experiencewasn't the same, because I've
had that with people that were.
I've had a bad experience withsomebody, but their experience
was okay and maybe it wassomething that I did, or maybe
(16:12):
it was just that one transaction.
But you know, I I just don'tlike to deal with a lot of BS,
and so if someone is honest andtruthful and transparent, even
if they screw up something, I'mokay with that, because I just
want to have a relationship withsomebody to where I can just
trust them.
You know, be like oh, okay, youknow, hey, I totally made a
mistake here.
This is my, my air, you knowI'll, I'll pay for it or or
(16:35):
whatever.
Not not to be like, okay, Ihope I can close this with this
person.
They don't know, find out aboutthis till it's too late.
Like, oh, you own it, sorry,it's your problem, now you have
to pay the taxes on it or hey,they didn't have insurance on it
.
So now you got to advance theinsurance.
You know forced place insuranceon it.
So I just don't, I don't liketo deal with that stuff,
obviously, and so I just try tomake it clear with people like
hey look, you know I'm, I'm anopen, open door policy over here
(16:56):
.
So anything you want to knowabout me, you know the guy that
I closed some notes with earlierthis- year has been.
Dan Deppen (17:08):
you know I've worked with him before, but you know
he's pretty fantastic.
There was one where, like youknow, I bought the note.
We got it, you know,transferred over.
And then there was this courtdate coming up for a code
violation this was a landcontract and he called me.
He's like, hey, I didn't knowthis was going on.
He's like I'll, I'll, I'll takecare of this.
You know, don't worry about it.
And then we had some hassleswith the loan servicers getting
(17:31):
the loans transferred and ittook entirely too long to get
the loans transferred.
I can get on my soapbox aboutloan servicers as well, but like
oh then, we have enough timefor that, Dan, and in the
meantime a bunch of payments hadgone to him that were after the
cutoff day that should havegone to me, and so we basically
(17:51):
just figured out what he owed meand he sent me a check and it
was like no problem.
And then I bought a couple morenotes from the guy just the
other week.
Justin Bogard (17:59):
Yeah, even if the pricing is not that great.
If I know I'm going to getexperience like that with a
person that I can do businesswith, I'm willing to pay a
little bit more money, becauseit's actually going to be
cheaper for me in the long runto work with them than it is
somebody else that may be givingme a great deal, but they may,
you know, be hiding some thingsor disguising some things that
are going to be a problem for mein the future, cause they're
trying to get rid of theirproblem and not really tell me
(18:19):
all the details.
Dan Deppen (18:21):
Yeah, and I mean, if you think about it right, like
notes is a game you can play fora really long time, like if
anybody's gone to the papersource conference in particular,
there's, you know, I met abunch of dudes there in their
70s and 80s that have been doingthis for like 40 years, right,
so I try to think of things inlike a decades long timeline and
(18:42):
so I want to work with peoplethat are easy to work with and
that I can just do business withover and over and over again.
I don't like the I mean I do itsometimes, but I don't like
like the trust but verify typerelationships where it's like,
okay, I can get a deal from thisguy, but I got to watch him
like a Hawk and I got to crossall the T's and all the not all
(19:06):
the eyes, or you know he's goingto get me at some point Like
that's just, that's justdraining and not really
sustainable.
Justin Bogard (19:12):
Yeah, it is, it's so what I've been working on
lately is is looking at manydifferent portfolios from people
that are kind of new tooriginating loans, whether it's,
you know, on single familyhouses or commercial stuff or
land, land stuff, and so I don'treally know these what we'll
call operators.
Like they're manufacturingnotes and they're doing it, you
(19:33):
know a smart way to trying tocreate wealth and build wealth,
and they just don't know whatthey don't know and sometimes
they get in their own waybecause they make assumptions
that they, they are the expertfinancier, because they feel
like this is a simple productwith a simple methodology and a
simple way to design this note,when in fact they're just
they're just shooting themselvesin the foot and they're
(19:53):
actually not making the mostwealth that they could be doing.
Um, just because they don'thave the proper note education.
Dan Deppen (19:59):
Is that because they're not structuring the note
?
What's that?
Is that because they're notstructuring the note optimally?
Correct, yeah.
Justin Bogard (20:10):
That's kind of one of the main points there.
I think they make thegeneralization that if they
charge a higher interest rate,they're making more money and
they may have a longeramortization as opposed to a
shorter as opposed to a shorter,and they just do things that
are just contradictory to whatlogic does for our business and
what makes sense mathematically.
(20:30):
Because we know that they don'twant to hold the paper forever.
Right, they have to haveliquidity and they have to
recycle their money andotherwise they're not going to
be able to continue to run theiroperation because at some point
they're going to borrow as muchas they can and have much their
much of their money out therethat they just they can't do
anymore.
They have to wait until youincome comes in to build up so
they can go buy moreopportunities.
(20:51):
So, knowing that, going forward,they should be talking to
somebody like a Dan or a Justinand saying, hey, how do I set
this up in a manner at whichthis is a business flow of
inventory that comes in and out.
So we have people that do that,that think ahead like that, but
some people aren't, aren'tseeing the big picture and it
goes back to they just don'tknow what they don't know, and
(21:11):
so I wish we had moreopportunity to get in front of
these bigger operators or theseland developers or these you
know commercial property guysthat are doing solar financing,
just say, hey look, you know,this is, this is a really cool
tool that you can get liquidity.
You don't have to go to a bank,you know, you can just use us,
and then everybody's happybecause we all see this
inventory come through and andyou're doing the work on the
(21:32):
front end and we're creatingwealth on the back end for you
and us.
Dan Deppen (21:36):
Yeah, I'm always a little surprised that sellers
don't of notes, don't make iteasier for buyers.
Like I've never done that masscreation of notes, whether it's
through, you know, buying rawland and you know carving it up
and seller financing the lots oror some of the mobile home
stuff that people are doing.
But if I was doing that, Iwould just create like a really
(21:59):
tight due diligence package andmake it like super simple for
the buyer.
Like I see a lot of deals wherethey give you kind of limited
information and it's very buyerbeware and it's like I'm not
going to do a bunch of work tofigure this out.
If you've done your homeworkand this is a good note, just
give me all the inference ifinfo it's in your best interest,
(22:20):
you know to do that.
So, cause the market's plentybig right that there's.
You know, on the generation side.
You know on the the generationside, you know I had a
conversation recently with Fredand Tracy Rui.
Um, you know, and I think therewere like 89,000 seller finance
notes created last year plusall the other ones that are out
there.
Um, and you know all the otherpaper that's floating in the
(22:44):
system relative, you know,relative to a kind of a
relatively small number of ofpeople like us who who buy these
things.
That's why I'm never reallyworried about competition.
That's why you know, shareinformation freely and things
like that, cause I feel likeonce everything gets a lot more
professionalized, this wholemarket should really be like 20
(23:04):
times larger than what it istoday?
Justin Bogard (23:08):
Yeah, my local real estate club.
There's.
There's still nobody else thatthat does this as a branding and
advertisement, that they are anote buyer and seller like I do,
and I just still can't believeit.
I've been doing this for seven,eight years now and there's
still no one else that does itlike this.
So it's just.
It's just surprised me, becausethey all have this
conversations and these ideasand these topics and they all
(23:31):
think about either wholesaling,being a landlord or fixing and
flipping houses, and nobodytalks about the financial part
of it or being the note creator,the note seller or the note
harvester, as I call it.
They just don't look at itbecause it's not, it's not
mainstream enough.
You know, you got flipping.
Dan Deppen (23:49):
Yeah, and the information is difficult to get
right, like you have to golooking for it.
Um, you know some of the liketraining mastermind options or
can be extremely expensive insome cases.
And yeah, because I feel likethere's a little bit of a
chicken and the egg problem too.
Right, because if there aren'tpeople like to do what everybody
(24:11):
else is doing, yeah, so if theydon't see a lot of examples of
people doing that.
then they're less likely to getinvolved.
But I'm strongly convinced thatyou know I'll see a day where
that does flip and it's farlarger.
And I think, like if you couldtravel forward in time and tell
(24:31):
people there was a state of themarket like this where you had a
relatively small number ofinvestors and this gigantic
market of notes and reallynobody to compete with, they
probably wouldn't believe you,right, like?
this is the time.
You know, everybody like wishesthey had taken advantage of
opportunities in.
In retrospect people see thathousing prices like oh my God, I
(24:54):
can't believe what I could havebought that house for 20 years
ago.
Or they do that with stocks,like I'm telling you, like with
the note market, like these arethe good old days right now, so
we're living it.
Justin Bogard (25:09):
Yeah, all right If you had to start all over
again, or if you had to tellsomebody that's starting over in
the industry right now.
That's just starting out.
What are some ways they can beprofessional and what are some
ways they can stand out?
Dan Deppen (25:24):
Yeah, I mean, I think one of the best ways you
can be professional is just bereal serious about your
processes and systems, right,like if you have kind of a.
One of the good things aboutloans is they can be kind of
rinse and repeat, so you shouldunderstand, like, what kind of
assets you're looking for andhave a system for when you get a
tape, quickly look, identify onthe assets that you might be
(25:44):
interested in and then have asystem for getting through the
due diligence process, a littlesystem for pricing.
It doesn't have to necessarilybe super elaborate, it doesn't
have to be long, but one that'sgoing to allow you to do more
deals and be more repeatable andit's going to allow you to
respond a lot quicker to otherpeople, right, because even
though deals tend to move kindof slow, you can definitely
(26:08):
stand out by being able to movemore quickly and more accurately
than other folks.
Justin Bogard (26:15):
Yeah, I definitely, definitely agree
with all that the internalprocesses needs to be.
You need to treat it like acompany.
This isn't a hobby.
If you want to do this fulltime and if you want to make
money being what we call abroker in the business or, you
know, a full-time real estatenote investor, with your own
money and you know this is aprofession and you have to act
professional.
So you know, get an LLC.
(26:37):
Don't just have your ownpersonal name out there with
your home address, like be, be astorefront, look like a 10
story building is what somebodytold me.
So you know you have a, have awebsite.
It doesn't have to be a $50,000website.
You can spend, you know, 1500bucks and hire somebody just to
make something that looks cooland and mirrors what other
people in our business do.
(26:58):
It's not that complicated.
You know.
Make sure you have, you know,some sort of marketing material,
so you look like you've been inbusiness for a while and make
sure you have connections, likeyou know us two on here.
You've called me about dealsbefore Indianapolis and I've
talked to you about deals inColorado before, and that's the
connection that we have, becauseI can rely on you and you can
rely on me, because we both havethe same knowledge in our
(27:20):
business and stuff, and sohaving that network is huge,
because you don't have to beable to answer all the questions
today.
You just have to know somebodythat can answer the question for
you, right?
Exactly, it's the old Ford CEO,right, it's like he didn't know
everything.
Exactly, it's the old, the oldford ford ceo, right, it's like
he didn't know everything.
He just like?
Well, I hired somebody to dothat because they know how to do
it, like, I don't need to knowit, right, exactly?
Dan Deppen (27:39):
yeah, I mean, you know it's kind of a myth right
in like movies and things.
Like people watch iron man andthey think tony stark like
builds everything haven't workedin high tech, like that's not
how it works, right, steve jobsdidn't build the iphone by
himself, right'm sorry.
They had like thousands ofpeople doing that for him, so he
just had the idea, yeah, whichis important, right, and then
(28:00):
what he did was valuable, butit's, it's.
It's.
Takes a lot more than that toactually get the product out the
door.
Justin Bogard (28:09):
So I'd say you're being professional, you're
acting professional.
And what gets me the most andmaybe this is just me, dan but I
cannot stand it when people areusing like AOL or Gmail email
addresses.
It's so easy to go out and getjust a domain to where you can
have your email address be yourdomain, and it just makes you
(28:32):
look way more professional.
Like you can tell, whensomebody uses Gmail and they
don't have like a emailsignature at the end, it's just
it looks like amateur hour to me.
So I I just it just irritatesme and I get it when somebody's
starting out, they might nothave a lot of money to spend and
and that's okay, but to acertain point you got to get to
a level, because otherwiseyou're going to lose opportunity
, you're going to be looked atas a small player, even though
(28:53):
you might be a small player, butyou'd want to have that feeling
that you're not a small playerand you're not inexperienced.
Dan Deppen (28:58):
So, um, yeah the reason that's important.
It's like like I don't care ifsomebody's using a gmail in and
of itself, um, but the problemis because there are a lot of
flaky people out there, right,who will like waste your time or
like make an offer and youaccept it, and they never close
(29:18):
right when you don't knowsomebody-.
Justin Bogard (29:21):
There's another episode there.
Dan Deppen (29:22):
Yeah, you know there's a pretty good chance
they're in that bucket and sothe email they're using those
little things.
It's just another indicator,right, because I might instantly
assume that oh okay, there's ahigh chance this person's in
that bucket.
I'm not going to give them asmuch time, so yeah, so somebody
gets to know you.
That's helpful.
Justin Bogard (29:42):
Every virtual assistant or SEO marketing
advertisement I get definitelyhas a Gmail address or some sort
of address that's not aprofessional address at the end.
So I'm just like delete, delete, delete, because I know that
they're going to be wasting mytime.
And you're exactly right, andthank you for saying that,
because I wasn't going to bringthat up, because I honestly
(30:02):
didn't think about it, so yousaid it.
But, yeah, you're exactly right.
The assumption is, this isgoing to be a waste of my time
because they're somebody that'sjust, you know, three degrees of
separation removed fromsomebody else that I should be
talking to because I'm aprincipal buyer.
You're a principal buyer, youwant to talk to a principal
seller or vice versa You're aprincipal seller, you want to
talk to the principal buyer.
You don't really want to dealwith the person.
(30:24):
That's like the assistant.
So, yeah, it's nice to know.
When you read the room, youknow who you're talking to.
Dan Deppen (30:29):
Yeah, and one other quick tip right to yeah.
And one other quick tip right.
If somebody has something forsale, you're not familiar with
them and you want to make surethey're a principal seller, it's
not that difficult to go toNetter online or use DataTree or
something like that to startlooking up the chain of
assignments on the mortgage tosee what entity that goes to and
(30:50):
see if it actually maps to thatperson.
Right, because I've had peoplesend me stuff before and I find
out it's owned by somebody elsethat I know.
Justin Bogard (30:59):
So yeah, you do have to be careful in this
business.
That's why it's good to findpeople that you can trust and
you've done multiple deals with,because you don't have to be so
, you don't have to scrutinizeit so much, and that's why I
feel it's important to buildthose relationships and stuff.
Dan Deppen (31:14):
Yeah, that's why I also like the paper stack escrow
process, which is kind of nice,especially if I'm dealing with
someone I don't know, becausebasically the way that works is
you'll wire the funds to them,they get the hard collateral and
do an audit and they releaseeverything after they've assured
that everything's kosher.
(31:34):
So it costs a little more money, but if I'm dealing with
someone new, I kind of like thatto just protect myself.
Justin Bogard (31:42):
Yeah, I agree with that.
It's nice to have thatprotection there.
Sometimes I feel like peoplejust absorb too much of your
time before they get to thatpoint to where they want to buy
it.
It's like I'm just trying toget to point, like if you're
serious, just commit.
If you're not serious, please,just, you know, go ahead and
move on.
You don't have to tie up thedeal, you know.
Dan Deppen (32:00):
Yeah, my other hot tip is if somebody I've had this
happen a couple of times whereI have a deal with someone and
they come back and they're like,oh, I don't like this one thing
, can we make this oneadjustment?
And I've occasionally just said, okay, fine, let's just get
this done.
Whenever I've done that,they've always come back with
something else and somethingelse.
(32:20):
So if someone's starting tolike tread down that path of
finding problems, causing delays, like they're usually they're,
they're never going to close.
Yeah Right, so you can seewhere that's heading pretty
quick.
Justin Bogard (32:36):
Yeah, definitely.
All right, Dan, we're going toclose out this episode today.
I got one last question to askyou, and that is I want you to
name your top five sports thatyou like, and starting with
number one.
Dan Deppen (32:49):
Well, number one is golf.
Justin Bogard (32:51):
Okay, that's pretty easy Okay.
Dan Deppen (32:53):
Number two is hiking .
Is that a sport?
Justin Bogard (32:57):
I don't know if it's a sport, but it's an
activity.
Okay, let me rephrase thequestion here.
Let's talk about, likeprofessional sports.
Here I want to hear yourprofessional sports.
Dan Deppen (33:05):
Oh, I thought you were talking about things like I
was doing.
Okay, Well.
Justin Bogard (33:07):
I wasn't clear.
Dan Deppen (33:13):
That's still golf.
Second would be football.
Justin Bogard (33:18):
Yeah, nfl.
Dan Deppen (33:21):
Although I am a university of Colorado guy and
so I will be following coachprime, although they've been
horrible for years.
Justin Bogard (33:28):
Where's your glasses at?
You don't have coach primeglasses.
Oh, I've got them.
Hold on, all right.
Those of coach prime glass oh,I've got them.
Hold on, oh, you all right.
Those of you that are listening, you need to get over to the uh
american note buyers youtubechannel so you can check out
yeah, I've got these, I gotthese glasses, but uh, yeah, um,
let's see.
Dan Deppen (33:47):
So, yeah.
So first golf, second football,third basketball wait, pro or
men's Pro?
Yeah, college basketball Idon't really watch at all,
although I did go to one CU game, okay, this year.
Beyond that, it drops off.
So you got three and then itdrops off Pretty quick.
Yeah, I don't watch a whole lotof TV to begin with, and if I
(34:07):
do, it's it's sports of of somesort.
Justin Bogard (34:15):
I used to watch UFC but I've kind of fallen out
of that.
Haven't followed that.
I can see boxing.
Okay, I might watch like a like.
A like maybe whatever it is isa.
Jake Paul and Mike Tyson aregoing to fight.
Maybe they've already foughtand I totally missed it.
Dan Deppen (34:25):
But yeah, during COVID.
Um, that sounds interesting.
I got into Brazilian jujitsufor a little bit.
I didn't get too far into it.
It's like the most anti COVIDthing you could do.
It's like meeting withstrangers and choking each other
.
Let's just put the put our germson each other, but it was a
good way to stay sane and thenand then I moved when I was
further away from the gym so Ikind of dropped it.
(34:45):
But but that was fun becausethe guy that ran that gym
actually coached UFC fightersand stuff.
In fact, if you remember when,um, several years ago, when
conor mcgregor attacked the busin new york, this guy was on the
bus when it when it happenedand when he told that story it
was.
It was pretty funny, yeah, oh mygosh.
Justin Bogard (35:04):
Well, I'm about to hear that story offline here.
So, all right, this was denver.
Dan deppin uh coming to youlive from the what's the Nuggets
Arena called.
Dan Deppen (35:14):
Ball Arena.
Ball Arena, yeah, like a formerIndiana company, like the Ball
Canning.
Yeah, oh, I'm still not gettingit.
Ball Corporation the Ball Jars.
They make soda cans oh gotcha.
They were originallyheadquartered in Muncie, Indiana
, and then they moved theirheadquarters to Colorado late
90s, something like that.
Justin Bogard (35:36):
You're full of awesome knowledge, man.
I like this.
Dan Deppen (35:39):
I'm like Cliff Clavin.
Yeah, I've got all kinds ofstuff, oh man.
Justin Bogard (35:45):
Dan, thanks so much for being on the podcast
Episode 10 of Season 6 on the Bethe Bank podcast sponsored by
American Notebuyers.
Dan, if somebody wants to reachout to you, how would they get
a hold of you?
Dan Deppen (35:56):
Yeah, best way is if you go to fusionnotescom slash
listeners.
There's links to all of mystuff on that page.
Justin Bogard (36:02):
All right, dan's got his own podcast as well, and
it's called the Note InvestorPodcast.
That's pretty easy to find outwhat you talk about.
Yeah, it's pretty direct,that's right.
All right, dan, thanks againfor being on the show today.
I appreciate it.
I appreciate you being myfriend and I enjoyed having this
conversation and we will seeyou guys on the next episode
(36:23):
here.
See you, dan, all right, thanks.
Narrator (36:29):
Thanks for listening to Be the Bank.
We hope you learned somethingfrom today's show.
If you enjoyed this episode,please rate and review us.
Plus, check out our channel onYouTube and follow us on
Facebook and Twitter at Be theBank, and on Instagram at Be the
Bank Podcast.
Be the Bank is sponsored byAmerican Notebuyers.
Thanks again for listening.
Thank you, hey listener.
Now here's your host, justinBogard.
Justin Bogard (00:47):
Hey listener, welcome to another episode on
the Be the Bank podcast.
This is episode number 10 ofseason six.
Today I have a guest, mr DanDeppin.
He's a friend of mine.
He's been in the note businessabout as long as I have and
today we're really going to beatup the topic of professionalism
in our industry and we have alot of experience between the
both of us and dealing withdifferent people and the
(01:09):
corporate backgrounds that weboth come from.
So you guys can enjoy thisconversation.
Stay tuned.
Denver, dan Deppin, how youdoing?
You like that.
The three D's.
(01:29):
You're the three D man.
Dan Deppen (01:31):
I've never been called that before.
I've been called other things,but yeah.
Justin Bogard (01:35):
I just made that up.
I don't know.
I just I'm weird like that man.
I come up with littlecatchphrases and those things
really quickly and they stick.
So hopefully people like itwhen they're received.
Dan Deppen (01:44):
Yeah, maybe it they stick, so hopefully people like
it when they're received.
Yeah, maybe it'll stick.
Justin Bogard (01:47):
Yeah, so yeah, you're from Denver.
You're got your swag on thererepresenting your team.
The old Denver nuggets outthere with the Joker.
That's taken over.
Taken over the game against theTimberwolves.
Dan Deppen (01:58):
Yeah, it's playoff season.
Justin Bogard (01:59):
Yeah.
Rough start against theTimberwolves but they're coming
back a little, so we'll see.
Yeah, we're recording thisactually the day before this
comes out, so this actually willair tomorrow.
So this is going to be freshnew content.
But yeah, so I'm in Indiana,I'm a Pacer fan.
The Pacers are in the secondround as well, going against the
Knicks, so the series is tied2-2.
(02:20):
And obviously Dan's out thererepresenting Denver and his team
is.
They're tied as well.
Dan Deppen (02:26):
2-2, right, 2-2, yeah, yeah, they dropped the
first two home games and thenwon the next two and caught it
up.
Justin Bogard (02:32):
It usually doesn't work like that.
Like our series both teams arewinning the home games, and then
your series both teams arewinning the away games.
Dan Deppen (02:40):
And what was weird was the first two games the
Nuggets didn't just lose, theygot blown out.
So I don't know what's beengoing on, but hopefully they
fixed whatever that was my auntand uncle live out there in
Denver, so they're Denver fansas well.
Justin Bogard (02:55):
of all the teams Avalanche, broncos, nuggets and
the Rockies.
Dan Deppen (03:04):
Yeah, the Rockies are pretty awful, from what I
understand.
Justin Bogard (03:06):
I just like it because people can just hit home
, runs out there because the airair so much thinner.
Dan Deppen (03:11):
Yeah, I play a lot of golf and it's definitely also
a fun place to play golf.
Yeah, it goes a lot further.
Justin Bogard (03:18):
Okay, so my my experience in Denver.
I'm kind of spoiled, so I'vebeen to Vail to go skiing and
then I also played at I thinkit's called Castle Rock, the
course.
Oh, castle Pines, castle Pines,yeah, which is in Castle Rock,
I believe.
Yeah, yeah, so that's my kindof experience out there.
So I think I've kind of touchedon the lavishness of Denver
(03:40):
there.
Dan Deppen (03:40):
That's cool.
I've definitely skied Vail vale.
I've never played castle pines,though, so you're ahead of me
on that one there's one hole.
Justin Bogard (03:46):
It's a par four and it's a drivable par four,
but you wouldn't.
You wouldn't think that,because the length I think it's
like 450 yards, so like straightdownhill or something.
Dan Deppen (03:56):
Straight downhill, yeah yeah, the other place to go
if you want to have fun is playgolf at uh, I believe it's
called eagle vale golf club, soit's up at vale, so you're
actually much higher.
Yeah, in denver or castle rockand all the t-boxes are like
artificially elevated, it's likeit's riding only, and they
drive you like way up, so you'renot only playing at like 8 000
or 8 500 feet, but you'rehitting way downhill, so it's
(04:18):
like playing on the moon.
Justin Bogard (04:19):
The ball doesn't come down I just hope it it goes
straight yeah.
Dan Deppen (04:25):
If it's offline, it's not stopping.
Yeah, it's not findable.
Justin Bogard (04:28):
No, you might hit , hit a house and then two
neighborhoods away, yeah, thenext town.
Yeah, all right, dan.
So you've been on my showbefore when it was the previous
iteration called the two wealthshow, and you haven't been on a
while.
So I just want to reintroduceyou to the audience.
Dan Deppen (04:49):
I'll let you kind of tell your quick little story
there and kind of how youstarted in the note business and
kind of what you're doing today, yeah, sounds good.
So I started in notes in 2017and then scaled up fairly
rapidly.
Then did it full-time for acouple of years in there and
then went back to having a W-2for a couple of years.
But when I was doing the W2, Iwas still doing a lot of notes
(05:09):
on the side and then, you know,earlier this year I left that
again.
So back to full-time notes.
Um, I've been doing notes thewhole time, um, but I've just
gone through, you know, periodsof bearing busyness with day
jobs.
But, yeah, I've been at it forseveral years now and, you know,
(05:30):
this year really focused ongrowing.
So I bought a decent number ofnotes so far this year and look
to be acquiring more soon.
Justin Bogard (05:40):
Are you buying non-performing, performing,
mixed bag of both?
Dan Deppen (05:44):
I'm buying both.
It's predominantly performingOkay, although I did buy a
couple of non-performingperforming mixed bag of both.
I'm buying both.
It's predominantly performingOkay, although I did buy a
couple of non-performers thisyear, which these days I just
don't see as many of them.
The price is about the same.
Yeah, so a couple of years agoI really moved mostly to
performing notes.
Yeah, because the spreadbetween a performing and
non-performing note tightened tothe point where I didn't see
(06:04):
the point and messing with thenon-performing.
So they've been a little fewerand farther between.
I'd say my specialty is kind ofwhat I call sub-performing.
There are a lot of loans outthere that are cash flowing.
The borrower makes payments butthey don't necessarily make
them reliably every month.
So they'll make a couple, missone or two, maybe make a double
payment.
But I like those because overthe course of a year you're
(06:27):
going to get 11 or 12 payments.
So on a yearly basis thecashflow nice.
Just on a monthly basis it'ssporadic.
You can get better pricing onthose.
So those are kind of what I'vebeen focused on mostly.
Justin Bogard (06:41):
I'm glad you said that, because I think that's a
missed opportunity with peoplein our business is that they
they're so, they're so enamoredwith having a loan that's paying
perfectly and paying, you know,at the first of the month, on
time.
And they don't understand.
This is an imperfect world withimperfect inventory that we
have.
We're not buying, you know, a$700,000 mortgage in a high-end
(07:02):
neighborhood the north side ofIndianapolis.
It's like you're not going tohave a 3% interest rate.
You're not going to getpayments coming in like that.
It's going to be a little bitdifferent.
You have to be a little bitflexible with it.
It may come in the first, itmay come in before the first or
it may come in nine days afterthe first.
Dan Deppen (07:19):
That's why you can get the higher yields right.
If you could buy those otherpristine loans you're going to
be getting, I don't know whatit'd be these days six or 7%,
something like that, which mostpeople aren't happy with.
So there's no free lunch, sosomething to give.
Justin Bogard (07:33):
No, free lunch, I like that, but yeah, so did you
start a fund?
Dan Deppen (07:38):
No, I didn't.
I left with starting one acouple of years ago and that was
like I think that was likeright around like the onset of
COVID and you know the challengewith the fund was finding the
right portfolio at the rightprice to like kind of get it off
the ground and I was working onthat and then, like right
(07:58):
around when, like COVID brokeloose, investors got super
scared, just like everybodyclamped down, and so I haven't
gone back to that.
I may pick that up at some point.
Although I've got a pretty goodsystem for managing what I have
now, and while I'm buying moreloans and definitely growing,
(08:19):
I'm not the kind of guy that'strying to manage a thousand
loans or something like thatYou're not this guy over here.
No, I've got.
I've got my sweet spot andwhere I'm trying to hit.
Justin Bogard (08:30):
So yeah, I, I did stumble into wanting to get a
fund.
So Richard and I my my oldbusiness partner Richard he's
retired now we set up a fundlast year over a year ago and so
we.
It's a smaller fund, it's onlya $10 million fund and so we are
buying all performing.
It's a 506B.
So we just bought allperforming loans and we've
(08:52):
probably gotten I don't know, Ithink I've bought 16 so far in a
year.
So it's cashflow and prettygood.
But you know, we're prettypicky with the loans that we buy
because obviously we want ourinvestors to continue to get
paid and obviously us make moneyon the backside as well.
But it's been interesting.
It's a big learning curve.
Accounting was definitelysomething that I had to stay on
(09:16):
top of and make sure it was setup correctly.
But after it was set upcorrectly it runs fairly smooth.
And then every now and then youmight get a borrower that just
balks on a payment and just kindof move the needle in the right
direction and maybe get anattorney letter involved to
scare somebody.
But it doesn't happen veryoften.
Like, maybe like two or threeloans have kind of gotten behind
a little bit, but they've alsogotten caught back up as well.
So it's it's worked out prettygood in our fund so far.
So not sure what the futureholds for it.
(09:37):
We may dabble in somenon-performing commercial maybe
next year or the year after, and.
But you know, the capitalraising is the biggest challenge
for me.
It's just because you know whenyou're trying to run the fund
and you're doing it, you knowkind of all on your own, so to
speak.
Without you know employees andjust relying on some vendors.
It's just tough to manage allthat expectation of running the
(10:01):
operations and raising theprivate capital.
So it's like you have to setaside time of when you raise
private capital and events anddoing, you know, webinars and
things like that.
Dan Deppen (10:09):
Yeah, it's tough, and so it sounds like you did
the B fund so you can donon-accredited investors.
That's nice, that makes life alittle bit easier it does.
Justin Bogard (10:18):
We had a pretty good database pool between
Richard and I and so we wereable to to make connections and
reconnect with people from ourour database and that's, that's
already new us to get startedwith our funds.
We definitely had a good baseto go to to start off with, and
then it's just, you know,reaching out to new people and
having them learn about what wedo and stuff, and then
introducing the fund to them ata later point.
Dan Deppen (10:38):
So yeah, my challenge was just looking at
the operational costs of runningit and all the legal costs and
I was like, well, to have itmake sense.
You know, I had to come out thegate like at a certain size,
and it was just difficult to geteverything aligned.
I didn't want to kind of rampit up slowly and almost treat it
(10:59):
as a loss leader till I got toa certain scale, because I can
still fund deals, you know, withthe certain individuals that I
work with.
So, yeah, so so far I haven'tbeen driven to that model just
yet.
Justin Bogard (11:11):
Well, if you need need some advice on what not to
do, I can.
I can help you with that.
Okay, I might take you up onthat.
Well, dan, today's I thought itwould be fun to talk about
professionalism and we talkedabout that in the little opener
there, and so in my experience,I've been doing this full time
since 2016.
(11:34):
I started off as someone thatdidn't have a lot of money in
this business and so I would bethe guy that kind of has the
hustle and I would find the dealand I'd put the deal in front
of somebody and I've kind oflearned some things what buyers
are looking for, what sellersare looking to do.
And in the process of learningthings what, what buyers are
looking for, what sellers arelooking to do and in the process
of learning things, I've I'vealso seen how I stood out from
other people and I would getthis feedback from people on
saying, like gosh, you know youactually do what you say you're
going to do and you know you,you wear, you know you dress the
(11:59):
part.
I guess I would say verballyand you know physically, dress
the part.
And so I, and so I I kept thatin the back of my mind going
okay, is this?
Am I like the only one that'sdoing this, or is it just a lot
of people that are out therethat are just bad actors and
posers and so?
And so I think it's the latterof the two, where there's just
there's just people out therethat are just lazy about this
(12:20):
stuff, and I just find it soirritating that you you can make
a pretty good spread on acommission if you find a tape
and flip it to somebody, or ifyou find a deal and you're able
to make some money on it, we'llbe called flipping a note and
you're making a pretty, prettysizable you know, a few thousand
bucks maybe on on a note thatyou're flipping, but you know
you're not having to put a lotof hours into it.
(12:40):
But at the same time, you knowI still understand why people
are so lazy about stuff, likeyou know, with information, like
emails, and being lazy about it, and we're typing it from their
phone and you can tell thatthey're mistyping things and
it's just, I don't know littlenuances like that.
They just irritate the crap outof me.
Dan Deppen (12:57):
I'm not sure how you feel about that, but um, yeah,
I mean, I see a lot of that samestuff out there.
Yeah, I mean, it's always achallenge, right, like there's,
there's the folks who are, youknow, some of them are just bad
actors, and then they're theones who are a little bit lazy
and kind of difficult to workwith.
(13:18):
The good thing about that,though, is it's a small industry
and it still kind of surprisesme some of the bad behavior I've
seen.
Like when I started in notes, Iknew it's a small industry and
it still kind of surprises mesome of the bad behavior I've
seen.
Like when I started in notes, Iknew it was a small industry
and I just kind of assumed thatthat would enforce good behavior
, and I realized, like you can'tmake that assumption, but the
glasses have full view on thatis, if you are very reliable,
(13:43):
you know that gives you a bigadvantage, right.
So, like, some of the bestdeals that I've had that I've
bought were from my network,where they just called me, and
those notes didn't even reallyhit the market because they knew
if something fit my buy box andthere was nothing super wrong
with it, there wasn't some titleflaw or whatever.
That would close on it, youknow, pretty quickly and
(14:06):
reliably.
So you know it's annoying tohave to deal with that stuff.
The advantage is it becomes alittle bit easier to kind of
stand out from the crowd.
Justin Bogard (14:16):
Yeah, and I say that not to introduce more
competition for you.
There's just not going to becompetition because there's just
too much inventory out there.
So, if anything, you know,we're just encouraging people to
do things the right way becausethere are and we can probably
name a few names, and we couldprobably name the first two
names that come to our head areprobably the same ones in this
industry that are just a problem.
Yeah, and we're not going tosay that on the over the air
(14:38):
here, but we're just going tosay like and the people that are
not doing this the right wayare the ones that are basically
screwing over people and notdoing what they say that they're
going to do.
They get blacklisted reallyquickly and it's not the gossip
isn't intentional to be gossip,it's just like, hey, I did this
deal with this one company orthis one person.
(15:00):
This is what happened to me inmy experience.
And they said, okay, I'm gladthat you said that, because I'm
getting ready to do duediligence on a file with that
person or that company.
And now I know to keep my eyesopen to make sure that you know,
I'm checking all my boxes andmaking sure I'm doing due
diligence on them.
You know some of these peopleor these companies.
They don't have liquidity andthey don't tell you they have.
(15:22):
They don't have liquidity untilyou get to the 11th hour, when
they're wondering why they can'tfund a deal.
Dan Deppen (15:31):
Yeah, it's kind of insane right and it's funny,
especially if you could go to alive event.
You'll learn all kinds of stuffthat's going on in the industry
.
I know, like me, I'll haveconversations face-to-face or on
or on the phone.
That was stuff.
Information I'm not necessarilygoing to throw into emails or
or other places.
Justin Bogard (15:50):
Yeah, there's a time and place for it.
Like, if someone has a casualconversation with me, I can just
tell my experience.
I'm going to be like, hey, thiscould have been something where
it was just me and it's justthe transaction I had with them,
but I'm just going to sharewith you what happened to me.
So hopefully your experiencewasn't the same, because I've
had that with people that were.
I've had a bad experience withsomebody, but their experience
was okay and maybe it wassomething that I did, or maybe
(16:12):
it was just that one transaction.
But you know, I I just don'tlike to deal with a lot of BS,
and so if someone is honest andtruthful and transparent, even
if they screw up something, I'mokay with that, because I just
want to have a relationship withsomebody to where I can just
trust them.
You know, be like oh, okay, youknow, hey, I totally made a
mistake here.
This is my, my air, you knowI'll, I'll pay for it or or
(16:35):
whatever.
Not not to be like, okay, Ihope I can close this with this
person.
They don't know, find out aboutthis till it's too late.
Like, oh, you own it, sorry,it's your problem, now you have
to pay the taxes on it or hey,they didn't have insurance on it
.
So now you got to advance theinsurance.
You know forced place insuranceon it.
So I just don't, I don't liketo deal with that stuff,
obviously, and so I just try tomake it clear with people like
hey look, you know I'm, I'm anopen, open door policy over here
(16:56):
.
So anything you want to knowabout me, you know the guy that
I closed some notes with earlierthis- year has been.
Dan Deppen (17:08):
you know I've worked with him before, but you know
he's pretty fantastic.
There was one where, like youknow, I bought the note.
We got it, you know,transferred over.
And then there was this courtdate coming up for a code
violation this was a landcontract and he called me.
He's like, hey, I didn't knowthis was going on.
He's like I'll, I'll, I'll takecare of this.
You know, don't worry about it.
And then we had some hassleswith the loan servicers getting
(17:31):
the loans transferred and ittook entirely too long to get
the loans transferred.
I can get on my soapbox aboutloan servicers as well, but like
oh then, we have enough timefor that, Dan, and in the
meantime a bunch of payments hadgone to him that were after the
cutoff day that should havegone to me, and so we basically
(17:51):
just figured out what he owed meand he sent me a check and it
was like no problem.
And then I bought a couple morenotes from the guy just the
other week.
Justin Bogard (17:59):
Yeah, even if the pricing is not that great.
If I know I'm going to getexperience like that with a
person that I can do businesswith, I'm willing to pay a
little bit more money, becauseit's actually going to be
cheaper for me in the long runto work with them than it is
somebody else that may be givingme a great deal, but they may,
you know, be hiding some thingsor disguising some things that
are going to be a problem for mein the future, cause they're
trying to get rid of theirproblem and not really tell me
(18:19):
all the details.
Dan Deppen (18:21):
Yeah, and I mean, if you think about it right, like
notes is a game you can play fora really long time, like if
anybody's gone to the papersource conference in particular,
there's, you know, I met abunch of dudes there in their
70s and 80s that have been doingthis for like 40 years, right,
so I try to think of things inlike a decades long timeline and
(18:42):
so I want to work with peoplethat are easy to work with and
that I can just do business withover and over and over again.
I don't like the I mean I do itsometimes, but I don't like
like the trust but verify typerelationships where it's like,
okay, I can get a deal from thisguy, but I got to watch him
like a Hawk and I got to crossall the T's and all the not all
(19:06):
the eyes, or you know he's goingto get me at some point Like
that's just, that's justdraining and not really
sustainable.
Justin Bogard (19:12):
Yeah, it is, it's so what I've been working on
lately is is looking at manydifferent portfolios from people
that are kind of new tooriginating loans, whether it's,
you know, on single familyhouses or commercial stuff or
land, land stuff, and so I don'treally know these what we'll
call operators.
Like they're manufacturingnotes and they're doing it, you
(19:33):
know a smart way to trying tocreate wealth and build wealth,
and they just don't know whatthey don't know and sometimes
they get in their own waybecause they make assumptions
that they, they are the expertfinancier, because they feel
like this is a simple productwith a simple methodology and a
simple way to design this note,when in fact they're just
they're just shooting themselvesin the foot and they're
(19:53):
actually not making the mostwealth that they could be doing.
Um, just because they don'thave the proper note education.
Dan Deppen (19:59):
Is that because they're not structuring the note
?
What's that?
Is that because they're notstructuring the note optimally?
Correct, yeah.
Justin Bogard (20:10):
That's kind of one of the main points there.
I think they make thegeneralization that if they
charge a higher interest rate,they're making more money and
they may have a longeramortization as opposed to a
shorter as opposed to a shorter,and they just do things that
are just contradictory to whatlogic does for our business and
what makes sense mathematically.
(20:30):
Because we know that they don'twant to hold the paper forever.
Right, they have to haveliquidity and they have to
recycle their money andotherwise they're not going to
be able to continue to run theiroperation because at some point
they're going to borrow as muchas they can and have much their
much of their money out therethat they just they can't do
anymore.
They have to wait until youincome comes in to build up so
they can go buy moreopportunities.
(20:51):
So, knowing that, going forward,they should be talking to
somebody like a Dan or a Justinand saying, hey, how do I set
this up in a manner at whichthis is a business flow of
inventory that comes in and out.
So we have people that do that,that think ahead like that, but
some people aren't, aren'tseeing the big picture and it
goes back to they just don'tknow what they don't know, and
(21:11):
so I wish we had moreopportunity to get in front of
these bigger operators or theseland developers or these you
know commercial property guysthat are doing solar financing,
just say, hey look, you know,this is, this is a really cool
tool that you can get liquidity.
You don't have to go to a bank,you know, you can just use us,
and then everybody's happybecause we all see this
inventory come through and andyou're doing the work on the
(21:32):
front end and we're creatingwealth on the back end for you
and us.
Dan Deppen (21:36):
Yeah, I'm always a little surprised that sellers
don't of notes, don't make iteasier for buyers.
Like I've never done that masscreation of notes, whether it's
through, you know, buying rawland and you know carving it up
and seller financing the lots oror some of the mobile home
stuff that people are doing.
But if I was doing that, Iwould just create like a really
(21:59):
tight due diligence package andmake it like super simple for
the buyer.
Like I see a lot of deals wherethey give you kind of limited
information and it's very buyerbeware and it's like I'm not
going to do a bunch of work tofigure this out.
If you've done your homeworkand this is a good note, just
give me all the inference ifinfo it's in your best interest,
(22:20):
you know to do that.
So, cause the market's plentybig right that there's.
You know, on the generation side.
You know on the the generationside, you know I had a
conversation recently with Fredand Tracy Rui.
Um, you know, and I think therewere like 89,000 seller finance
notes created last year plusall the other ones that are out
there.
Um, and you know all the otherpaper that's floating in the
(22:44):
system relative, you know,relative to a kind of a
relatively small number of ofpeople like us who who buy these
things.
That's why I'm never reallyworried about competition.
That's why you know, shareinformation freely and things
like that, cause I feel likeonce everything gets a lot more
professionalized, this wholemarket should really be like 20
(23:04):
times larger than what it istoday?
Justin Bogard (23:08):
Yeah, my local real estate club.
There's.
There's still nobody else thatthat does this as a branding and
advertisement, that they are anote buyer and seller like I do,
and I just still can't believeit.
I've been doing this for seven,eight years now and there's
still no one else that does itlike this.
So it's just.
It's just surprised me, becausethey all have this
conversations and these ideasand these topics and they all
(23:31):
think about either wholesaling,being a landlord or fixing and
flipping houses, and nobodytalks about the financial part
of it or being the note creator,the note seller or the note
harvester, as I call it.
They just don't look at itbecause it's not, it's not
mainstream enough.
You know, you got flipping.
Dan Deppen (23:49):
Yeah, and the information is difficult to get
right, like you have to golooking for it.
Um, you know some of the liketraining mastermind options or
can be extremely expensive insome cases.
And yeah, because I feel likethere's a little bit of a
chicken and the egg problem too.
Right, because if there aren'tpeople like to do what everybody
(24:11):
else is doing, yeah, so if theydon't see a lot of examples of
people doing that.
then they're less likely to getinvolved.
But I'm strongly convinced thatyou know I'll see a day where
that does flip and it's farlarger.
And I think, like if you couldtravel forward in time and tell
(24:31):
people there was a state of themarket like this where you had a
relatively small number ofinvestors and this gigantic
market of notes and reallynobody to compete with, they
probably wouldn't believe you,right, like?
this is the time.
You know, everybody like wishesthey had taken advantage of
opportunities in.
In retrospect people see thathousing prices like oh my God, I
(24:54):
can't believe what I could havebought that house for 20 years
ago.
Or they do that with stocks,like I'm telling you, like with
the note market, like these arethe good old days right now, so
we're living it.
Justin Bogard (25:09):
Yeah, all right If you had to start all over
again, or if you had to tellsomebody that's starting over in
the industry right now.
That's just starting out.
What are some ways they can beprofessional and what are some
ways they can stand out?
Dan Deppen (25:24):
Yeah, I mean, I think one of the best ways you
can be professional is just bereal serious about your
processes and systems, right,like if you have kind of a.
One of the good things aboutloans is they can be kind of
rinse and repeat, so you shouldunderstand, like, what kind of
assets you're looking for andhave a system for when you get a
tape, quickly look, identify onthe assets that you might be
(25:44):
interested in and then have asystem for getting through the
due diligence process, a littlesystem for pricing.
It doesn't have to necessarilybe super elaborate, it doesn't
have to be long, but one that'sgoing to allow you to do more
deals and be more repeatable andit's going to allow you to
respond a lot quicker to otherpeople, right, because even
though deals tend to move kindof slow, you can definitely
(26:08):
stand out by being able to movemore quickly and more accurately
than other folks.
Justin Bogard (26:15):
Yeah, I definitely, definitely agree
with all that the internalprocesses needs to be.
You need to treat it like acompany.
This isn't a hobby.
If you want to do this fulltime and if you want to make
money being what we call abroker in the business or, you
know, a full-time real estatenote investor, with your own
money and you know this is aprofession and you have to act
professional.
So you know, get an LLC.
(26:37):
Don't just have your ownpersonal name out there with
your home address, like be, be astorefront, look like a 10
story building is what somebodytold me.
So you know you have a, have awebsite.
It doesn't have to be a $50,000website.
You can spend, you know, 1500bucks and hire somebody just to
make something that looks cooland and mirrors what other
people in our business do.
(26:58):
It's not that complicated.
You know.
Make sure you have, you know,some sort of marketing material,
so you look like you've been inbusiness for a while and make
sure you have connections, likeyou know us two on here.
You've called me about dealsbefore Indianapolis and I've
talked to you about deals inColorado before, and that's the
connection that we have, becauseI can rely on you and you can
rely on me, because we both havethe same knowledge in our
(27:20):
business and stuff, and sohaving that network is huge,
because you don't have to beable to answer all the questions
today.
You just have to know somebodythat can answer the question for
you, right?
Exactly, it's the old Ford CEO,right, it's like he didn't know
everything.
Exactly, it's the old, the oldford ford ceo, right, it's like
he didn't know everything.
He just like?
Well, I hired somebody to dothat because they know how to do
it, like, I don't need to knowit, right, exactly?
Dan Deppen (27:39):
yeah, I mean, you know it's kind of a myth right
in like movies and things.
Like people watch iron man andthey think tony stark like
builds everything haven't workedin high tech, like that's not
how it works, right, steve jobsdidn't build the iphone by
himself, right'm sorry.
They had like thousands ofpeople doing that for him, so he
just had the idea, yeah, whichis important, right, and then
(28:00):
what he did was valuable, butit's, it's.
It's.
Takes a lot more than that toactually get the product out the
door.
Justin Bogard (28:09):
So I'd say you're being professional, you're
acting professional.
And what gets me the most andmaybe this is just me, dan but I
cannot stand it when people areusing like AOL or Gmail email
addresses.
It's so easy to go out and getjust a domain to where you can
have your email address be yourdomain, and it just makes you
(28:32):
look way more professional.
Like you can tell, whensomebody uses Gmail and they
don't have like a emailsignature at the end, it's just
it looks like amateur hour to me.
So I I just it just irritatesme and I get it when somebody's
starting out, they might nothave a lot of money to spend and
and that's okay, but to acertain point you got to get to
a level, because otherwiseyou're going to lose opportunity
, you're going to be looked atas a small player, even though
(28:53):
you might be a small player, butyou'd want to have that feeling
that you're not a small playerand you're not inexperienced.
Dan Deppen (28:58):
So, um, yeah the reason that's important.
It's like like I don't care ifsomebody's using a gmail in and
of itself, um, but the problemis because there are a lot of
flaky people out there, right,who will like waste your time or
like make an offer and youaccept it, and they never close
(29:18):
right when you don't knowsomebody-.
Justin Bogard (29:21):
There's another episode there.
Dan Deppen (29:22):
Yeah, you know there's a pretty good chance
they're in that bucket and sothe email they're using those
little things.
It's just another indicator,right, because I might instantly
assume that oh okay, there's ahigh chance this person's in
that bucket.
I'm not going to give them asmuch time, so yeah, so somebody
gets to know you.
That's helpful.
Justin Bogard (29:42):
Every virtual assistant or SEO marketing
advertisement I get definitelyhas a Gmail address or some sort
of address that's not aprofessional address at the end.
So I'm just like delete, delete, delete, because I know that
they're going to be wasting mytime.
And you're exactly right, andthank you for saying that,
because I wasn't going to bringthat up, because I honestly
(30:02):
didn't think about it, so yousaid it.
But, yeah, you're exactly right.
The assumption is, this isgoing to be a waste of my time
because they're somebody that'sjust, you know, three degrees of
separation removed fromsomebody else that I should be
talking to because I'm aprincipal buyer.
You're a principal buyer, youwant to talk to a principal
seller or vice versa You're aprincipal seller, you want to
talk to the principal buyer.
You don't really want to dealwith the person.
(30:24):
That's like the assistant.
So, yeah, it's nice to know.
When you read the room, youknow who you're talking to.
Dan Deppen (30:29):
Yeah, and one other quick tip right to yeah.
And one other quick tip right.
If somebody has something forsale, you're not familiar with
them and you want to make surethey're a principal seller, it's
not that difficult to go toNetter online or use DataTree or
something like that to startlooking up the chain of
assignments on the mortgage tosee what entity that goes to and
(30:50):
see if it actually maps to thatperson.
Right, because I've had peoplesend me stuff before and I find
out it's owned by somebody elsethat I know.
Justin Bogard (30:59):
So yeah, you do have to be careful in this
business.
That's why it's good to findpeople that you can trust and
you've done multiple deals with,because you don't have to be so
, you don't have to scrutinizeit so much, and that's why I
feel it's important to buildthose relationships and stuff.
Dan Deppen (31:14):
Yeah, that's why I also like the paper stack escrow
process, which is kind of nice,especially if I'm dealing with
someone I don't know, becausebasically the way that works is
you'll wire the funds to them,they get the hard collateral and
do an audit and they releaseeverything after they've assured
that everything's kosher.
(31:34):
So it costs a little more money, but if I'm dealing with
someone new, I kind of like thatto just protect myself.
Justin Bogard (31:42):
Yeah, I agree with that.
It's nice to have thatprotection there.
Sometimes I feel like peoplejust absorb too much of your
time before they get to thatpoint to where they want to buy
it.
It's like I'm just trying toget to point, like if you're
serious, just commit.
If you're not serious, please,just, you know, go ahead and
move on.
You don't have to tie up thedeal, you know.
Dan Deppen (32:00):
Yeah, my other hot tip is if somebody I've had this
happen a couple of times whereI have a deal with someone and
they come back and they're like,oh, I don't like this one thing
, can we make this oneadjustment?
And I've occasionally just said, okay, fine, let's just get
this done.
Whenever I've done that,they've always come back with
something else and somethingelse.
(32:20):
So if someone's starting tolike tread down that path of
finding problems, causing delays, like they're usually they're,
they're never going to close.
Yeah Right, so you can seewhere that's heading pretty
quick.
Justin Bogard (32:36):
Yeah, definitely.
All right, Dan, we're going toclose out this episode today.
I got one last question to askyou, and that is I want you to
name your top five sports thatyou like, and starting with
number one.
Dan Deppen (32:49):
Well, number one is golf.
Justin Bogard (32:51):
Okay, that's pretty easy Okay.
Dan Deppen (32:53):
Number two is hiking .
Is that a sport?
Justin Bogard (32:57):
I don't know if it's a sport, but it's an
activity.
Okay, let me rephrase thequestion here.
Let's talk about, likeprofessional sports.
Here I want to hear yourprofessional sports.
Dan Deppen (33:05):
Oh, I thought you were talking about things like I
was doing.
Okay, Well.
Justin Bogard (33:07):
I wasn't clear.
Dan Deppen (33:13):
That's still golf.
Second would be football.
Justin Bogard (33:18):
Yeah, nfl.
Dan Deppen (33:21):
Although I am a university of Colorado guy and
so I will be following coachprime, although they've been
horrible for years.
Justin Bogard (33:28):
Where's your glasses at?
You don't have coach primeglasses.
Oh, I've got them.
Hold on, all right.
Those of coach prime glass oh,I've got them.
Hold on, oh, you all right.
Those of you that are listening, you need to get over to the uh
american note buyers youtubechannel so you can check out
yeah, I've got these, I gotthese glasses, but uh, yeah, um,
let's see.
Dan Deppen (33:47):
So, yeah.
So first golf, second football,third basketball wait, pro or
men's Pro?
Yeah, college basketball Idon't really watch at all,
although I did go to one CU game, okay, this year.
Beyond that, it drops off.
So you got three and then itdrops off Pretty quick.
Yeah, I don't watch a whole lotof TV to begin with, and if I
(34:07):
do, it's it's sports of of somesort.
Justin Bogard (34:15):
I used to watch UFC but I've kind of fallen out
of that.
Haven't followed that.
I can see boxing.
Okay, I might watch like a like.
A like maybe whatever it is isa.
Jake Paul and Mike Tyson aregoing to fight.
Maybe they've already foughtand I totally missed it.
Dan Deppen (34:25):
But yeah, during COVID.
Um, that sounds interesting.
I got into Brazilian jujitsufor a little bit.
I didn't get too far into it.
It's like the most anti COVIDthing you could do.
It's like meeting withstrangers and choking each other
.
Let's just put the put our germson each other, but it was a
good way to stay sane and thenand then I moved when I was
further away from the gym so Ikind of dropped it.
(34:45):
But but that was fun becausethe guy that ran that gym
actually coached UFC fightersand stuff.
In fact, if you remember when,um, several years ago, when
conor mcgregor attacked the busin new york, this guy was on the
bus when it when it happenedand when he told that story it
was.
It was pretty funny, yeah, oh mygosh.
Justin Bogard (35:04):
Well, I'm about to hear that story offline here.
So, all right, this was denver.
Dan deppin uh coming to youlive from the what's the Nuggets
Arena called.
Dan Deppen (35:14):
Ball Arena.
Ball Arena, yeah, like a formerIndiana company, like the Ball
Canning.
Yeah, oh, I'm still not gettingit.
Ball Corporation the Ball Jars.
They make soda cans oh gotcha.
They were originallyheadquartered in Muncie, Indiana
, and then they moved theirheadquarters to Colorado late
90s, something like that.
Justin Bogard (35:36):
You're full of awesome knowledge, man.
I like this.
Dan Deppen (35:39):
I'm like Cliff Clavin.
Yeah, I've got all kinds ofstuff, oh man.
Justin Bogard (35:45):
Dan, thanks so much for being on the podcast
Episode 10 of Season 6 on the Bethe Bank podcast sponsored by
American Notebuyers.
Dan, if somebody wants to reachout to you, how would they get
a hold of you?
Dan Deppen (35:56):
Yeah, best way is if you go to fusionnotescom slash
listeners.
There's links to all of mystuff on that page.
Justin Bogard (36:02):
All right, dan's got his own podcast as well, and
it's called the Note InvestorPodcast.
That's pretty easy to find outwhat you talk about.
Yeah, it's pretty direct,that's right.
All right, dan, thanks againfor being on the show today.
I appreciate it.
I appreciate you being myfriend and I enjoyed having this
conversation and we will seeyou guys on the next episode
(36:23):
here.
See you, dan, all right, thanks.
Narrator (36:29):
Thanks for listening to Be the Bank.
We hope you learned somethingfrom today's show.
If you enjoyed this episode,please rate and review us.
Plus, check out our channel onYouTube and follow us on
Facebook and Twitter at Be theBank, and on Instagram at Be the
Bank Podcast.
Be the Bank is sponsored byAmerican Notebuyers.
Thanks again for listening.
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