December 27, 2023 • 29 mins
Join us as we, two seasoned investors, lay bare our future plans, preferred investment types, and our strategies to reduce daily tasks. We also reminisce about past investment experiences, with a particular focus on the significance of comprehending and following market cycles. What's more, we delve into the aspects of investing that bring us joy and fulfillment.
This episode is ripe with golden nuggets for anyone interested in investing. Tune in for some real talk about real estate and wealth creation!
Resources and links discussed:
- Videocast on our YouTube Channel
- ANB Funds Website - https://anbfunds.com
About the Host:
Justin Bogard – Note Investor specializing in performing Residential Real Estate Debt. He finds deals and acquires them for his own portfolio as well as educates investors while walking them through the process of owning a Real Estate Note!
Connect with the Host:
Facebook - bethebank
Twitter - bethebank1
Instagram - bethebankpodcast
American Note Buyers - https://anbfunds.com/
Monthly Broadcast - https://youtube.com/playlist?list=PLzc944w1xydt5aLDrrEPHJhdJeDkBjjD4
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Narrator (00:00):
Interested in real estate.
How about wealth?
Well, they go hand in hand, andhere you'll learn all about it.
Welcome to Be the Bank, apodcast where we discuss and
debate the topics centeredaround real estate investing.
Your host, justin Bogard,shares insights into investing
in real estate to create realwealth and passive income for
(00:21):
you and your family.
He'll share stories of realestate investments done right,
walk you through the process ofowning a real estate note and,
most importantly, educate you soyou can Be the Bank.
This is Be the Bank brought toyou by American Notebuyers.
Now here's your host, justinBogard.
Justin Bogard (00:44):
Hello listener, I hope you had a fantastic,
wonderful holiday, and this isthe last episode for season five
of this year.
We'll be starting season sixhere in January, so today's a
pretty special episode Notalways the last episode, but my
partner, Richard Thornton, isgoing to be on today and we have
some cool little insights as towhat's going on, so you guys
(01:06):
should definitely stay tuned.
Yo, what's happening?
Richard Thornton (01:21):
Dude, it's a nice day in California.
Justin Bogard (01:25):
You know that little music that plays in
between the, the opener, and nowI always had the volume up just
a little bit too loud.
So with these headphones that Ihave on, it's like ah that's
too loud to turn it down.
It's like soundcheck real quick,real quick.
Yeah, man, weather's beenpretty good out here.
We creep down into the 20s fora minute and then it just kind
(01:47):
of warmed back up.
So I mean I got all the windowsyou know open to sunlight in
here now and it's it's alreadylike 73 without even turning on
the heater, and it's like 40outside.
So I'm liking it.
Richard Thornton (02:00):
You know, I keep telling me these forecasts
and I just I mean it's low 50shere, justin, it's clear, but it
you know, it's just not thatwarm outside and I'm sure your
nights have been a lot colder.
But we've had, we probablyalready had, and I'm north of
San Francisco, we've probablyalready had a dozen nights that
are below freezing.
Justin Bogard (02:23):
Do you have to take all your plants and bring
them inside then?
Richard Thornton (02:26):
Oh yeah, you have to cover up the sheets and
stuff like that.
Justin Bogard (02:30):
We just let them go here.
Yeah, there's just time forthem.
Richard Thornton (02:35):
Also, you grow the right plants right so that
they can take that.
Justin Bogard (02:38):
Yeah, I'm talking about cannabis.
By the way, we're talking aboutreal, regular plants.
Richard Thornton (02:44):
I don't know, I don't know, I don't know if
cannabis can take the frost.
Justin Bogard (02:50):
It can take the heat, from what I hear.
Richard Thornton (02:53):
It's right.
Justin Bogard (02:57):
All right man.
Richard Thornton (02:58):
So that's the cannabis market is not a market
that's doing all that well thesedays it's not hot.
Justin Bogard (03:04):
There was a lot of talk about that a while back
run there.
Richard Thornton (03:08):
Yeah, yeah, I mean it's, it's.
It's collapsing because ofoverproduction.
Justin Bogard (03:16):
Doesn't surprise me.
That's surprising.
So what other markets that I'vebeen kind of reading about is
kind of the commercial realestate market.
So do you know the guy JohnBurns in the CRE Daily?
I do, okay.
So I've kind of subscribed tothat newsletter recently just
because I've seen some charts oftheirs and it's like, oh,
(03:36):
that's pretty cool data andstuff.
So I've been kind of reading alittle bit and it was it found
it founds other articles outthere and it kind of puts all
together.
This newsletter is to kind ofgive you a good, a good round
knowledge on the commercial realestate space right now.
And and it had this articleabout commercial office real
estate in certain in some of thebigger cities across the
(03:59):
country, and particularly Ithink it was New York that it's
been a few days since I read it.
I think it said it was New Yorkwhere some of these landlords
are discovering that, you know,they're not going to get their
tenants to bring back, you know,their office workers and fill
the space like they want to, andso some of these guys are
having to, you know, get outtheir leases and so some of them
(04:21):
are actually considering andactually doing the full
architecture remodel of some ofthese office buildings and
turning them into luxuryresidential apartments.
Richard Thornton (04:32):
Well, if you've got the window space and
you can hollow out the core tocreate more windows space, I
think that's a you know it's aviable opportunity.
You've got a 40 story buildingwith a single floor plate and no
windows, you know, no interiorwindows.
It's going to be kind of tough.
Justin Bogard (04:53):
Yeah.
Richard Thornton (04:54):
Good idea.
Justin Bogard (04:56):
Yeah, reading further in that article, it also
said that they were preparingfor the future and thinking
about autonomous cars being ableto come into, like the building
, so like kind of a ramp up intothe middle of the building,
somewhere to kind of pick up anddrop off residents.
So you know, to avoid, you knowthe going outside to get in,
(05:18):
the, you know, do an air quoteshere taxi to have that or not
autonomous, you know regular,for example, Lyft or Uber
drivers or whatnot for sharedride services.
Reminds me you're saying.
Richard Thornton (05:32):
that just reminds me, did you ever you
were it's probably when you weredid you ever listen to the car
guys out of Boston, their MPRshell?
Justin Bogard (05:42):
I might have.
If you said the name of it, Imight recognize it.
Richard Thornton (05:46):
It was.
It was Well as Ray and Ray andTom Magliosi, I think, was their
last name, and they banteredback and forth about how to fix
cars and Things like that, andthey had this fictitious Russian
Taxi driver and two of them,and one one was named pick up
(06:07):
and the other one was named dropoff.
Justin Bogard (06:10):
Come on, drop off .
Richard Thornton (06:12):
Pick up and drop off For right there, I know
I could be a name.
Justin Bogard (06:17):
That could be somebody's name.
Richard Thornton (06:19):
There's two Russian taxi drivers.
Justin Bogard (06:24):
Well, that'd be interesting and perhaps maybe a
lot of the bigger cities aregoing to figure out some sort of
way to do that.
Because number one, I guess itkind of fixes the housing
Potential problem that peoplethat want to stay in that type
environment Perhaps be moredowntown-ish type of people.
I guess around here we wouldcall them millennials, because
it seems like the millennialsare the ones that want to have
(06:44):
that downtown Sort of a livingenvironment.
You know where everything'sclose by and they could walk to
and really not have to have avehicle.
They can just, you know, ridethe, the rented scooters that
they can just, you know, homeacross downtown area with or get
shared ride services.
And it seems like if they don't, richard, they might have some
implications with.
You know, you definitely don'twant a big city to start being
vacant, because I think you evenmentioned before, like San
(07:06):
Francisco, kind of got kind ofbear there for a little bit to
where there weren't a lot of asmany shops around and just
seemed kind of kind of almostdead compared to what it used to
be when it was, you know,humming and buzz still is.
Richard Thornton (07:18):
Yeah, if you go into the financial district
during the day it is, it looksto me like a Saturday, which is
not much, because there's notmuch else down there.
That's a good way to put itlike.
Justin Bogard (07:28):
Saturday yeah.
Richard Thornton (07:30):
Yeah, but so one other idea that I've heard
that I actually thought was apretty good idea and you can
only do so much of this, but Ithink a lot of this infill will
happen a little bit here and alittle bit there Is to put data
centers in some of thesebuildings, because you know that
a lot of the data centers aregoing out on these Big plots of
land in the middle of nowhereand you've got to run high
(07:51):
tension lines and all this stuffto them.
Well, you've got all that rightthere.
So if you could take 10 floorsof one of these buildings and
stack it with servers, um, rightclose where they're needed,
that's a pretty good idea.
Justin Bogard (08:06):
Yeah, that makes a lot of sense too, because you
can just go vertical as opposedto expanding out Out which ways
and waste all that real estate.
Richard Thornton (08:14):
That's right.
Cool, that's right.
So I I think the market's goingto slowly Come around to better
you know, to it always does toresolve the issue, but, um, it
just may, uh, may, take a littlewhile.
Justin Bogard (08:27):
Yeah, I can see that.
Well, uh, richard, I know youhave an announcement that you
would like to make and stuff,and so I'd like to give the
opportunity to make yourannouncement.
Richard Thornton (08:38):
Well, it's not much of an announcement.
We all do this.
I mean, I've got a lot of grayhair and I was 65 a long time
ago when, as you, we know, mostpeople retire.
So I've just decided to retire,it's I?
Um thought that, uh, uh, nowI've, I've certainly enjoyed all
(09:00):
of our, our efforts, but itreally slowly kind of hit me
that, um, if I work until I'm 80, full time anyway, uh, I'm not
going to be able to enjoy muchof uh, and I've got a couple
physical limitations now.
That really made me start toWake up to that fact, and so I
thought I should think about, um, you know, taking it a little
(09:25):
bit easier.
So, yeah, I'm, I'm going toretire for the most part, I'm
going to keep my fingers andnotes a little bit, but, um, I'm
going to leave the a and bfunds to uh, to you and you know
, basically, as you know, wishyou well and They'll help you,
help you in any way I can, butit's it's time to to pull back a
little bit.
Justin Bogard (09:44):
That's awesome, man.
It's it's been a fun journey.
You know, we started thistogether knowing that at some
point, you know, you were goingto plan to kind of exit out.
We didn't know when that was,and we didn't know when that was
and and this is kind of coolhow we always, you know, have
good conversations about what'sgoing on in each other's lives
and kind of what direction we'regoing.
So what, what type ofinvestments now are you looking
forward to doing, now thatyou're kind of don't really have
(10:07):
to worry about Day-to-dayspecific tasks anymore?
Richard Thornton (10:11):
Well, I think I'll continue to make loans to
you for A&B to sort of make yourlife easier I've got.
Actually, one of the things I'mgoing to do is I'm going to buy
back a lot of my partials.
I have a lot of 10-yearpartials out there and I think
you know that I was kind ofstruggling to find really good
(10:33):
notes.
And there's a clause in yourpartial that allows anybody who
has used the notes schoolpaperwork to buy it back
basically whenever they want.
And I thought, wait a minute,I've got notes out there that I
bought a long time ago that arekicking off a 15% to 18% return,
(10:54):
which we struggle to get thatright now, and at this point
they've been paying for four orfive years or more.
I thought why don't I just buythese back?
They're great little incomestreams.
So I'm going to be doing thatAfter the first year we're going
to go to the Galapagos here inJanuary and tootle around South
(11:18):
America a little bit, and afterthat I'm going to start buying
back a lot of the partials thatI did.
Justin Bogard (11:25):
That sounds pretty good.
So your plan obviously is notto be an active investor, but
you're definitely trying to getinto the stay in the note space.
As far as that's concerned, buysome older partials from
previous investors that you'vesold them to and just get a
really good cashflow streamgoing to where you're just not
having to have the headache ofjust real property.
Is that sum it up?
Richard Thornton (11:46):
Yeah, I mean I'm fortunate.
I had enough notes over mycareer, which hasn't been all
that long in notes, but I've gota nice little stockpile From
the pandemic hit.
I sold off quite a few of mynotes and took profits there,
but I've still got a nice littleportfolio and I can use my Roth
(12:08):
IRA funds and buy back somemore.
So I'm going to be just fine.
It's sort of what every noteinvestor wants to do, which is
basically live off of thatsteady, any mailbox income.
What I don't want to do is toget back into a lot of the day
to day, which is going to happeneventually, inevitably anyway,
(12:32):
but at some point somebody'sgoing to fall or somebody's
going to have a trailer in theirfront yard and I'm going to
have to call them and blah, blah, blah.
I want to try and minimize that.
Justin Bogard (12:41):
Yeah, not nearly as much effort as it is today,
as it will be tomorrow, so tospeak.
Richard Thornton (12:47):
Yeah, and just the marketing.
I mean, as you and I said, Ijust kind of hit a wall with
marketing.
I surprised myself.
I thought I was going to be inthis with you for another five
years or so and I started to geteverything going and just
(13:07):
realized that I've climbed thiswall twice before in the big
marketing era and did it verysuccessfully, and I just
realized that it was going to bea longer, longer, higher wall
than I wanted to climb this time.
Justin Bogard (13:26):
What, looking back on your investment kind of
history, what was what space didyou find the most interesting
and the most fun as far asinvesting in?
Because I know you've done alot of different types of
investing, with not just realestate but other types of
investments as well.
Richard Thornton (13:45):
Well, I'd say, the most fun.
First of all, one thing that Ithought I would mention is I
think some of us get stuck indoing one thing and you really
have to in retrospect.
You really have to follow thecycles.
So when I had my mortgagebanking company, my commercial
(14:05):
mortgage banking, when we builtit up and it was great volume
and we were finally bought outby a bank and wonderful,
wonderful, but it was the cyclethe Fannie Mae, freddie Mac and
FHA, which we were making a lotof their larger apartment loans
$10 million and up were startingthat whole effort.
(14:25):
So we rode that wave and whenthe banks woke up to how
lucrative all that could be, itwas time to sell.
And so at that I noticed thatsenior housing was hot and it
was.
You could get great returnsMaybe it'd be at 15% plus after
being in a deal for three yearsand do triple net leases.
(14:47):
So I jumped into that with myold clients.
So it was just constantlylooking at where the cycles were
and taking advantage of those.
You don't want to try and swimupstream, but I'd have to say
that overall I had the most funin senior housing.
I really enjoyed working withthe clientele, working with a
(15:09):
lot larger because we did $20million deals and that was with
the financing.
We'd finance get a $15 millionloan from FHA.
But that was fun.
That was a lot more set it andforget it, but it was just fun
(15:30):
business.
I just enjoyed it.
Justin Bogard (15:34):
How long would it take from the time that you
find the opportunity to actuallystart funding it?
How long does that take withsenior housing facility?
Richard Thornton (15:42):
Well, that was one of the drawbacks.
You were usually looking atmaybe six months to the
acquisition and somewherebetween eight months to a year
to get it purchased and themoney raised and the deal done,
and there again you got to be ina very small niche.
I was very fortunate.
I had a bunch of well-heeledclients and I could call them up
(16:05):
and do just very simple shirtpocket syndications.
It wasn't a big deal to raise$5 million.
We're struggling to raise $5million in the note market, but
that's where those guys wantedto be and they don't want to be
in the note space.
They don't want to be insomething that's as small as
we're doing.
Justin Bogard (16:25):
Right, yeah, they're used to dealing in a lot
bigger numbers.
Richard Thornton (16:29):
Yeah, they're bigger numbers and that's just
where some people want to be.
So, right time, right place.
Justin Bogard (16:40):
There's a lot of that.
Is there anything that youinvested in in your career that
you just despised doing that?
You're just like why the helldid I do that?
Richard Thornton (16:51):
That's a good question.
I loved flipping.
I thought I had the most fun.
You said where I really had themost fun.
Justin Bogard (17:00):
I did too.
Even though I didn't make muchmoney, I still had fun doing it.
It was just going to be.
Richard Thornton (17:05):
Well, that's it.
I had one.
There was this sort ofexclusive seaside residential
area around here and I thought,oh, I'm going to branch out and
go out there.
And I did a flip out there andI just lost my shirt on it.
Boy did I get a.
(17:25):
That was probably the dumbestthing I ever did.
It was an hour's drive and Itotally missed the market and it
was exclusive.
But what I didn't realize wasit was a home depot market.
People they wanted home depotkitchens Got you.
And I put this really fancything in there that well, these
(17:46):
are expensive houses and thesepeople are in the exclusive
place they want, but they wantedtoys.
These are people who hadgarages with five stalls.
And they had an RV and a boatand a you know a Porsche and you
know this and it was, it was,you know it was a toy market.
It was, and I totally missedthat, oh well.
Justin Bogard (18:09):
Okay, did you ever get into traditional
investments, like in the stockmarket, or like oil and gas or
anything?
Richard Thornton (18:18):
I you know.
I went through the first dotcom boom and bust and I lost my
shirt in the first bust.
I probably should have held andstayed and I would have been
much wealthier than I am rightnow.
But I got nervous and got outat the bottom and I've just
never been much for stocks andbonds.
(18:39):
I've been more of a real estateguy.
Justin Bogard (18:42):
Yeah, oil, oil, gas or coins or anything Never
looked at any of that.
Richard Thornton (18:48):
No but you know, I think, I think, no, I
think flipping land like Eddiedoes, Eddie speed does, is is I
sort of wish I'd gotten intothat at something like that.
It seemed like that's a nicegig.
Justin Bogard (19:01):
Absolutely yeah.
He definitely cut his teethwith that stuff, didn't he?
Richard Thornton (19:06):
Yeah, but there again, you know that's a
little bit hard.
It's harder to do in Californiabecause the numbers are so big.
You could do that in yourbackyard.
Yeah, it's really easy to dothat in Texas, but you know
you're spending $750,000 for anacre of land here.
Justin Bogard (19:22):
Wow, that's unheard of.
Richard Thornton (19:26):
It's a little bit different.
Justin Bogard (19:28):
That's very different, absolutely Well.
Do you ever recall of off topof your head with since flipping
was your, was the most fun foryou and, honestly, it was the
most fun for me?
Do you ever recall a returnthat you made flipping a house?
That was that you just couldn'tbelieve that.
You made Like, like, can youdraw one off the top of your
(19:50):
head and be like I doubled mymoney in this or what have you
like your best return inflipping a house?
Richard Thornton (19:58):
Well.
So one of the reasons I got outof flipping was because a lot
of the weekenders started to getinto it and the markets got to
scale.
But I got into.
I started flipping in 2010 whenprices were really low and I
made 50 to 70% 75% off ofeverything.
(20:19):
I did everything.
I flipped, and I did that forfour years, so that's kind of
what I was used to.
And when things really starteddropping and guys were making
20% off of a flip, there's a lotof guys out there right now
that think, hey, look, I can hitit out of the ballpark if I'm
making 20% off of it.
(20:39):
Yeah, right Now again, thenumbers were bigger.
I was having to buy things athalf a million dollars and put
300,000 into it and yes, I meanby the at the.
At the end of the day, I wasmaking 200, 300,000 dollars.
Justin Bogard (21:01):
But you get six of those going.
Richard Thornton (21:02):
Yeah, yeah, you get six of those going at
once.
Which?
Justin Bogard (21:05):
is what I had.
Yeah, I never had more thanthan like two and a half
projects going at the same timeof flipping, because I just
don't see how.
I don't see how you could dothat with, or anybody can do,
six of them, you know, in a row,without a lot, a lot of help,
you know, with managing it.
Richard Thornton (21:22):
Well, I mean, I didn't do any of the
construction myself.
I had a construction partner,so he did all.
He did all the construction andhe did his work at cost, and
then we had a split agreement.
Narrator (21:34):
Yeah, and he always made.
Richard Thornton (21:37):
yeah, he'd always make 10 to 20% more than
he would have made had he doneit, you know, and just made me a
regular paying customer.
So he was willing to take thatrisk and I was willing to make
that split because I also knewthat if I did that I wasn't
going to get fleeced on buildingcosts and everything else.
Justin Bogard (21:57):
It was just, was he the same guy that did all six
of those at the same time, orall of your properties?
Or did you have multiplecontractors?
Richard Thornton (22:05):
I did, I did all my flips with one contractor
.
Justin Bogard (22:08):
Okay, so it was just a general that had all the
all the subs that you guysneeded to complete the job.
Richard Thornton (22:14):
Right, this guy, you know I did my first.
He actually did a deal that webought for my mom.
We bought a house from a mom upin Northern California.
I got to know him and Iapproached him.
(22:34):
I said, well, do you want to doa, do you want to do a deal?
And so we did one, just forstraight profit, and that worked
out, and so we just built fromthere.
Justin Bogard (22:43):
That's very cool man.
So how, how long have you beeninvesting in real estate then?
Richard Thornton (22:51):
Well, I mean you have to qualify that.
But yeah, I mean I.
Justin Bogard (22:55):
Okay, I'm making it your full time job.
Richard Thornton (23:01):
Gosh, my full-time job.
Oh, 30 years, 35 years,something like that, I mean you
know again riding the waves.
I was buying my first houses inthe early 80s and at that point
the game was to buy into a 100plus unit townhouse project.
Justin Bogard (23:27):
Yeah.
Richard Thornton (23:28):
And you'd buy into the first phase before they
actually had any units that youcould occupy.
And so your money sat there forsix months while they were
building the unit and theyfinally got it.
And then they started to sellphase two and phase three.
So they built in.
You know they had $20,000 toeach phase.
(23:50):
Yeah, so you had this built-inappreciation.
By the time you get throughphase four or five you'd made
$100,000.
You wait until after they sellout in phase five and you sell.
Oh sorry, you sell your unit.
Justin Bogard (24:05):
Yeah.
Richard Thornton (24:08):
And I probably did that four times.
So we just house-served andprobably House-served.
Justin Bogard (24:14):
That's a cool way of putting it.
That's awesome.
Did you ever have to calculatelike I need this much to live
off of and as long as I get thatpassive income to come in, then
the rest of it I can justfunnel into the retirement
account and then start livingoff that in the future?
Did you ever, or were you ever,somebody that did that?
Richard Thornton (24:36):
Yeah, that was my goal point.
I mean, that was my.
I truly worked from the startfrom your goal and then worked
towards that.
And if you haven't made itevery year, you haven't made it
every six months.
In other words, if you're sofar afield that you're not gonna
make it, then you better dosomething.
(24:58):
And I'm not to get too personalhere, but I, when I had my
mortgage banking company, I wasmaking a whole lot more money
than I am right now, so I had towrite some huge checks for my
divorce and that severelyknocked me off my goal towards,
and so I had to scramble.
(25:20):
And then we both know about therecession, so there wasn't a
straight path.
As much as I would like to havebeen Right, I probably would
have retired 10 years ago if Ihad not done all that, but you
would have never met me and hadall this fun right.
Justin Bogard (25:41):
I know, I know what you missed out on.
I know, I know, I know.
So what are you gonna do nowwith your time?
Are you gonna try to vacationmore?
There are certain areas in theworld that you want to visit.
Richard Thornton (25:54):
Well, yeah, I mean, there are certain areas
that we wanna visit, and I'mgonna certainly do a large part
of that.
But I went to school and got anurban planning degree and a
finance degree, as you know, andso the city of Petaluma needs
some help.
When they're general plan,they're really good at planning.
They need some help whenthey're general plan, they're
(26:15):
redoing that, and I joined acouple of typical retirement
stuff.
I joined a couple of urbanplanning groups that are citizen
oriented and I'm gonna look forsome houses.
I would do another flip with amoney partner or something like
that, a construction partner ifI could find one.
I'm afraid of constructioncosts right now.
(26:37):
Right, yeah, so I'm gonna, youknow, like I say, buy back my.
I'm gonna continue to look foropportunities on a limited scale
, and I think that's the bestway to put it in and travel a
little bit and do things that Ijust find enjoyable.
Justin Bogard (27:00):
That's awesome, man.
Well, I wish you the best inyour retirement.
I know this isn't goodbye oranything, but we definitely
wanted to congratulate you onall the success that you've had
throughout your career.
It's been fun.
I've learned a lot from you.
My most favorite thing that I'velearned from you is kind of
when I first met you I think itwas around 16 or 17, 2016, 2017,
(27:20):
was you were telling me how youwould make sure that you
recycled your money like threetimes a year.
I was like, huh, that's areally nice perspective because
that makes a lot of sense,because it kind of pushes you
for a goal and it's like, ifyou're trying to, you know
that's when we were able to fliploans like there was no
tomorrow, right, because therewas a lot out there that were
(27:40):
good deals, and if you canrecycle that money two or three
times in a year, I mean that's apretty good velocity going.
So that always stuck with me.
So I was appreciated yousharing that with me, especially
in all the other things in yourinvesting journey that have
helped me along too, because Iwouldn't be able to set up the
fund without you.
So I do appreciate that.
Richard Thornton (27:59):
Well, you've been a good partner.
You've been a very good partner, I have to admit.
I admire just seeing how youlive your life.
I admire how you handleyourself with your kids and
you've been very responsible andresponsive and that means a lot
, and has been a lot to me.
Justin Bogard (28:16):
You're welcome, my friend.
All right, guys, this isepisode number 26 of season five
, the last one of the year.
We hope you guys have anawesome, safe, happy new year
and we will see you guys in thefirst episode of season six here
coming up in January.
So, richard, thanks again, myfriend and audience, check us
out on our YouTube channel, theAmerican Notepad, as YouTube
(28:38):
channel, so you can watch thevideo stream of this podcast as
well.
Until then, guys, have a goodnew year.
Narrator (28:45):
Bye.
Thanks again for listening.
Interested in real estate.
How about wealth?
Well, they go hand in hand, andhere you'll learn all about it.
Welcome to Be the Bank, apodcast where we discuss and
debate the topics centeredaround real estate investing.
Your host, justin Bogard,shares insights into investing
in real estate to create realwealth and passive income for
(00:21):
you and your family.
He'll share stories of realestate investments done right,
walk you through the process ofowning a real estate note and,
most importantly, educate you soyou can Be the Bank.
This is Be the Bank brought toyou by American Notebuyers.
Now here's your host, justinBogard.
Justin Bogard (00:44):
Hello listener, I hope you had a fantastic,
wonderful holiday, and this isthe last episode for season five
of this year.
We'll be starting season sixhere in January, so today's a
pretty special episode Notalways the last episode, but my
partner, Richard Thornton, isgoing to be on today and we have
some cool little insights as towhat's going on, so you guys
(01:06):
should definitely stay tuned.
Yo, what's happening?
Richard Thornton (01:21):
Dude, it's a nice day in California.
Justin Bogard (01:25):
You know that little music that plays in
between the, the opener, and nowI always had the volume up just
a little bit too loud.
So with these headphones that Ihave on, it's like ah that's
too loud to turn it down.
It's like soundcheck real quick,real quick.
Yeah, man, weather's beenpretty good out here.
We creep down into the 20s fora minute and then it just kind
(01:47):
of warmed back up.
So I mean I got all the windowsyou know open to sunlight in
here now and it's it's alreadylike 73 without even turning on
the heater, and it's like 40outside.
So I'm liking it.
Richard Thornton (02:00):
You know, I keep telling me these forecasts
and I just I mean it's low 50shere, justin, it's clear, but it
you know, it's just not thatwarm outside and I'm sure your
nights have been a lot colder.
But we've had, we probablyalready had, and I'm north of
San Francisco, we've probablyalready had a dozen nights that
are below freezing.
Justin Bogard (02:23):
Do you have to take all your plants and bring
them inside then?
Richard Thornton (02:26):
Oh yeah, you have to cover up the sheets and
stuff like that.
Justin Bogard (02:30):
We just let them go here.
Yeah, there's just time forthem.
Richard Thornton (02:35):
Also, you grow the right plants right so that
they can take that.
Justin Bogard (02:38):
Yeah, I'm talking about cannabis.
By the way, we're talking aboutreal, regular plants.
Richard Thornton (02:44):
I don't know, I don't know, I don't know if
cannabis can take the frost.
Justin Bogard (02:50):
It can take the heat, from what I hear.
Richard Thornton (02:53):
It's right.
Justin Bogard (02:57):
All right man.
Richard Thornton (02:58):
So that's the cannabis market is not a market
that's doing all that well thesedays it's not hot.
Justin Bogard (03:04):
There was a lot of talk about that a while back
run there.
Richard Thornton (03:08):
Yeah, yeah, I mean it's, it's.
It's collapsing because ofoverproduction.
Justin Bogard (03:16):
Doesn't surprise me.
That's surprising.
So what other markets that I'vebeen kind of reading about is
kind of the commercial realestate market.
So do you know the guy JohnBurns in the CRE Daily?
I do, okay.
So I've kind of subscribed tothat newsletter recently just
because I've seen some charts oftheirs and it's like, oh,
(03:36):
that's pretty cool data andstuff.
So I've been kind of reading alittle bit and it was it found
it founds other articles outthere and it kind of puts all
together.
This newsletter is to kind ofgive you a good, a good round
knowledge on the commercial realestate space right now.
And and it had this articleabout commercial office real
estate in certain in some of thebigger cities across the
(03:59):
country, and particularly Ithink it was New York that it's
been a few days since I read it.
I think it said it was New Yorkwhere some of these landlords
are discovering that, you know,they're not going to get their
tenants to bring back, you know,their office workers and fill
the space like they want to, andso some of these guys are
having to, you know, get outtheir leases and so some of them
(04:21):
are actually considering andactually doing the full
architecture remodel of some ofthese office buildings and
turning them into luxuryresidential apartments.
Richard Thornton (04:32):
Well, if you've got the window space and
you can hollow out the core tocreate more windows space, I
think that's a you know it's aviable opportunity.
You've got a 40 story buildingwith a single floor plate and no
windows, you know, no interiorwindows.
It's going to be kind of tough.
Justin Bogard (04:53):
Yeah.
Richard Thornton (04:54):
Good idea.
Justin Bogard (04:56):
Yeah, reading further in that article, it also
said that they were preparingfor the future and thinking
about autonomous cars being ableto come into, like the building
, so like kind of a ramp up intothe middle of the building,
somewhere to kind of pick up anddrop off residents.
So you know, to avoid, you knowthe going outside to get in,
(05:18):
the, you know, do an air quoteshere taxi to have that or not
autonomous, you know regular,for example, Lyft or Uber
drivers or whatnot for sharedride services.
Reminds me you're saying.
Richard Thornton (05:32):
that just reminds me, did you ever you
were it's probably when you weredid you ever listen to the car
guys out of Boston, their MPRshell?
Justin Bogard (05:42):
I might have.
If you said the name of it, Imight recognize it.
Richard Thornton (05:46):
It was.
It was Well as Ray and Ray andTom Magliosi, I think, was their
last name, and they banteredback and forth about how to fix
cars and Things like that, andthey had this fictitious Russian
Taxi driver and two of them,and one one was named pick up
(06:07):
and the other one was named dropoff.
Justin Bogard (06:10):
Come on, drop off .
Richard Thornton (06:12):
Pick up and drop off For right there, I know
I could be a name.
Justin Bogard (06:17):
That could be somebody's name.
Richard Thornton (06:19):
There's two Russian taxi drivers.
Justin Bogard (06:24):
Well, that'd be interesting and perhaps maybe a
lot of the bigger cities aregoing to figure out some sort of
way to do that.
Because number one, I guess itkind of fixes the housing
Potential problem that peoplethat want to stay in that type
environment Perhaps be moredowntown-ish type of people.
I guess around here we wouldcall them millennials, because
it seems like the millennialsare the ones that want to have
(06:44):
that downtown Sort of a livingenvironment.
You know where everything'sclose by and they could walk to
and really not have to have avehicle.
They can just, you know, ridethe, the rented scooters that
they can just, you know, homeacross downtown area with or get
shared ride services.
And it seems like if they don't, richard, they might have some
implications with.
You know, you definitely don'twant a big city to start being
vacant, because I think you evenmentioned before, like San
(07:06):
Francisco, kind of got kind ofbear there for a little bit to
where there weren't a lot of asmany shops around and just
seemed kind of kind of almostdead compared to what it used to
be when it was, you know,humming and buzz still is.
Richard Thornton (07:18):
Yeah, if you go into the financial district
during the day it is, it looksto me like a Saturday, which is
not much, because there's notmuch else down there.
That's a good way to put itlike.
Justin Bogard (07:28):
Saturday yeah.
Richard Thornton (07:30):
Yeah, but so one other idea that I've heard
that I actually thought was apretty good idea and you can
only do so much of this, but Ithink a lot of this infill will
happen a little bit here and alittle bit there Is to put data
centers in some of thesebuildings, because you know that
a lot of the data centers aregoing out on these Big plots of
land in the middle of nowhereand you've got to run high
(07:51):
tension lines and all this stuffto them.
Well, you've got all that rightthere.
So if you could take 10 floorsof one of these buildings and
stack it with servers, um, rightclose where they're needed,
that's a pretty good idea.
Justin Bogard (08:06):
Yeah, that makes a lot of sense too, because you
can just go vertical as opposedto expanding out Out which ways
and waste all that real estate.
Richard Thornton (08:14):
That's right.
Cool, that's right.
So I I think the market's goingto slowly Come around to better
you know, to it always does toresolve the issue, but, um, it
just may, uh, may, take a littlewhile.
Justin Bogard (08:27):
Yeah, I can see that.
Well, uh, richard, I know youhave an announcement that you
would like to make and stuff,and so I'd like to give the
opportunity to make yourannouncement.
Richard Thornton (08:38):
Well, it's not much of an announcement.
We all do this.
I mean, I've got a lot of grayhair and I was 65 a long time
ago when, as you, we know, mostpeople retire.
So I've just decided to retire,it's I?
Um thought that, uh, uh, nowI've, I've certainly enjoyed all
(09:00):
of our, our efforts, but itreally slowly kind of hit me
that, um, if I work until I'm 80, full time anyway, uh, I'm not
going to be able to enjoy muchof uh, and I've got a couple
physical limitations now.
That really made me start toWake up to that fact, and so I
thought I should think about, um, you know, taking it a little
(09:25):
bit easier.
So, yeah, I'm, I'm going toretire for the most part, I'm
going to keep my fingers andnotes a little bit, but, um, I'm
going to leave the a and bfunds to uh, to you and you know
, basically, as you know, wishyou well and They'll help you,
help you in any way I can, butit's it's time to to pull back a
little bit.
Justin Bogard (09:44):
That's awesome, man.
It's it's been a fun journey.
You know, we started thistogether knowing that at some
point, you know, you were goingto plan to kind of exit out.
We didn't know when that was,and we didn't know when that was
and and this is kind of coolhow we always, you know, have
good conversations about what'sgoing on in each other's lives
and kind of what direction we'regoing.
So what, what type ofinvestments now are you looking
forward to doing, now thatyou're kind of don't really have
(10:07):
to worry about Day-to-dayspecific tasks anymore?
Richard Thornton (10:11):
Well, I think I'll continue to make loans to
you for A&B to sort of make yourlife easier I've got.
Actually, one of the things I'mgoing to do is I'm going to buy
back a lot of my partials.
I have a lot of 10-yearpartials out there and I think
you know that I was kind ofstruggling to find really good
(10:33):
notes.
And there's a clause in yourpartial that allows anybody who
has used the notes schoolpaperwork to buy it back
basically whenever they want.
And I thought, wait a minute,I've got notes out there that I
bought a long time ago that arekicking off a 15% to 18% return,
(10:54):
which we struggle to get thatright now, and at this point
they've been paying for four orfive years or more.
I thought why don't I just buythese back?
They're great little incomestreams.
So I'm going to be doing thatAfter the first year we're going
to go to the Galapagos here inJanuary and tootle around South
(11:18):
America a little bit, and afterthat I'm going to start buying
back a lot of the partials thatI did.
Justin Bogard (11:25):
That sounds pretty good.
So your plan obviously is notto be an active investor, but
you're definitely trying to getinto the stay in the note space.
As far as that's concerned, buysome older partials from
previous investors that you'vesold them to and just get a
really good cashflow streamgoing to where you're just not
having to have the headache ofjust real property.
Is that sum it up?
Richard Thornton (11:46):
Yeah, I mean I'm fortunate.
I had enough notes over mycareer, which hasn't been all
that long in notes, but I've gota nice little stockpile From
the pandemic hit.
I sold off quite a few of mynotes and took profits there,
but I've still got a nice littleportfolio and I can use my Roth
(12:08):
IRA funds and buy back somemore.
So I'm going to be just fine.
It's sort of what every noteinvestor wants to do, which is
basically live off of thatsteady, any mailbox income.
What I don't want to do is toget back into a lot of the day
to day, which is going to happeneventually, inevitably anyway,
(12:32):
but at some point somebody'sgoing to fall or somebody's
going to have a trailer in theirfront yard and I'm going to
have to call them and blah, blah, blah.
I want to try and minimize that.
Justin Bogard (12:41):
Yeah, not nearly as much effort as it is today,
as it will be tomorrow, so tospeak.
Richard Thornton (12:47):
Yeah, and just the marketing.
I mean, as you and I said, Ijust kind of hit a wall with
marketing.
I surprised myself.
I thought I was going to be inthis with you for another five
years or so and I started to geteverything going and just
(13:07):
realized that I've climbed thiswall twice before in the big
marketing era and did it verysuccessfully, and I just
realized that it was going to bea longer, longer, higher wall
than I wanted to climb this time.
Justin Bogard (13:26):
What, looking back on your investment kind of
history, what was what space didyou find the most interesting
and the most fun as far asinvesting in?
Because I know you've done alot of different types of
investing, with not just realestate but other types of
investments as well.
Richard Thornton (13:45):
Well, I'd say, the most fun.
First of all, one thing that Ithought I would mention is I
think some of us get stuck indoing one thing and you really
have to in retrospect.
You really have to follow thecycles.
So when I had my mortgagebanking company, my commercial
(14:05):
mortgage banking, when we builtit up and it was great volume
and we were finally bought outby a bank and wonderful,
wonderful, but it was the cyclethe Fannie Mae, freddie Mac and
FHA, which we were making a lotof their larger apartment loans
$10 million and up were startingthat whole effort.
(14:25):
So we rode that wave and whenthe banks woke up to how
lucrative all that could be, itwas time to sell.
And so at that I noticed thatsenior housing was hot and it
was.
You could get great returnsMaybe it'd be at 15% plus after
being in a deal for three yearsand do triple net leases.
(14:47):
So I jumped into that with myold clients.
So it was just constantlylooking at where the cycles were
and taking advantage of those.
You don't want to try and swimupstream, but I'd have to say
that overall I had the most funin senior housing.
I really enjoyed working withthe clientele, working with a
(15:09):
lot larger because we did $20million deals and that was with
the financing.
We'd finance get a $15 millionloan from FHA.
But that was fun.
That was a lot more set it andforget it, but it was just fun
(15:30):
business.
I just enjoyed it.
Justin Bogard (15:34):
How long would it take from the time that you
find the opportunity to actuallystart funding it?
How long does that take withsenior housing facility?
Richard Thornton (15:42):
Well, that was one of the drawbacks.
You were usually looking atmaybe six months to the
acquisition and somewherebetween eight months to a year
to get it purchased and themoney raised and the deal done,
and there again you got to be ina very small niche.
I was very fortunate.
I had a bunch of well-heeledclients and I could call them up
(16:05):
and do just very simple shirtpocket syndications.
It wasn't a big deal to raise$5 million.
We're struggling to raise $5million in the note market, but
that's where those guys wantedto be and they don't want to be
in the note space.
They don't want to be insomething that's as small as
we're doing.
Justin Bogard (16:25):
Right, yeah, they're used to dealing in a lot
bigger numbers.
Richard Thornton (16:29):
Yeah, they're bigger numbers and that's just
where some people want to be.
So, right time, right place.
Justin Bogard (16:40):
There's a lot of that.
Is there anything that youinvested in in your career that
you just despised doing that?
You're just like why the helldid I do that?
Richard Thornton (16:51):
That's a good question.
I loved flipping.
I thought I had the most fun.
You said where I really had themost fun.
Justin Bogard (17:00):
I did too.
Even though I didn't make muchmoney, I still had fun doing it.
It was just going to be.
Richard Thornton (17:05):
Well, that's it.
I had one.
There was this sort ofexclusive seaside residential
area around here and I thought,oh, I'm going to branch out and
go out there.
And I did a flip out there andI just lost my shirt on it.
Boy did I get a.
(17:25):
That was probably the dumbestthing I ever did.
It was an hour's drive and Itotally missed the market and it
was exclusive.
But what I didn't realize wasit was a home depot market.
People they wanted home depotkitchens Got you.
And I put this really fancything in there that well, these
(17:46):
are expensive houses and thesepeople are in the exclusive
place they want, but they wantedtoys.
These are people who hadgarages with five stalls.
And they had an RV and a boatand a you know a Porsche and you
know this and it was, it was,you know it was a toy market.
It was, and I totally missedthat, oh well.
Justin Bogard (18:09):
Okay, did you ever get into traditional
investments, like in the stockmarket, or like oil and gas or
anything?
Richard Thornton (18:18):
I you know.
I went through the first dotcom boom and bust and I lost my
shirt in the first bust.
I probably should have held andstayed and I would have been
much wealthier than I am rightnow.
But I got nervous and got outat the bottom and I've just
never been much for stocks andbonds.
(18:39):
I've been more of a real estateguy.
Justin Bogard (18:42):
Yeah, oil, oil, gas or coins or anything Never
looked at any of that.
Richard Thornton (18:48):
No but you know, I think, I think, no, I
think flipping land like Eddiedoes, Eddie speed does, is is I
sort of wish I'd gotten intothat at something like that.
It seemed like that's a nicegig.
Justin Bogard (19:01):
Absolutely yeah.
He definitely cut his teethwith that stuff, didn't he?
Richard Thornton (19:06):
Yeah, but there again, you know that's a
little bit hard.
It's harder to do in Californiabecause the numbers are so big.
You could do that in yourbackyard.
Yeah, it's really easy to dothat in Texas, but you know
you're spending $750,000 for anacre of land here.
Justin Bogard (19:22):
Wow, that's unheard of.
Richard Thornton (19:26):
It's a little bit different.
Justin Bogard (19:28):
That's very different, absolutely Well.
Do you ever recall of off topof your head with since flipping
was your, was the most fun foryou and, honestly, it was the
most fun for me?
Do you ever recall a returnthat you made flipping a house?
That was that you just couldn'tbelieve that.
You made Like, like, can youdraw one off the top of your
(19:50):
head and be like I doubled mymoney in this or what have you
like your best return inflipping a house?
Richard Thornton (19:58):
Well.
So one of the reasons I got outof flipping was because a lot
of the weekenders started to getinto it and the markets got to
scale.
But I got into.
I started flipping in 2010 whenprices were really low and I
made 50 to 70% 75% off ofeverything.
(20:19):
I did everything.
I flipped, and I did that forfour years, so that's kind of
what I was used to.
And when things really starteddropping and guys were making
20% off of a flip, there's a lotof guys out there right now
that think, hey, look, I can hitit out of the ballpark if I'm
making 20% off of it.
(20:39):
Yeah, right Now again, thenumbers were bigger.
I was having to buy things athalf a million dollars and put
300,000 into it and yes, I meanby the at the.
At the end of the day, I wasmaking 200, 300,000 dollars.
Justin Bogard (21:01):
But you get six of those going.
Richard Thornton (21:02):
Yeah, yeah, you get six of those going at
once.
Which?
Justin Bogard (21:05):
is what I had.
Yeah, I never had more thanthan like two and a half
projects going at the same timeof flipping, because I just
don't see how.
I don't see how you could dothat with, or anybody can do,
six of them, you know, in a row,without a lot, a lot of help,
you know, with managing it.
Richard Thornton (21:22):
Well, I mean, I didn't do any of the
construction myself.
I had a construction partner,so he did all.
He did all the construction andhe did his work at cost, and
then we had a split agreement.
Narrator (21:34):
Yeah, and he always made.
Richard Thornton (21:37):
yeah, he'd always make 10 to 20% more than
he would have made had he doneit, you know, and just made me a
regular paying customer.
So he was willing to take thatrisk and I was willing to make
that split because I also knewthat if I did that I wasn't
going to get fleeced on buildingcosts and everything else.
Justin Bogard (21:57):
It was just, was he the same guy that did all six
of those at the same time, orall of your properties?
Or did you have multiplecontractors?
Richard Thornton (22:05):
I did, I did all my flips with one contractor
.
Justin Bogard (22:08):
Okay, so it was just a general that had all the
all the subs that you guysneeded to complete the job.
Richard Thornton (22:14):
Right, this guy, you know I did my first.
He actually did a deal that webought for my mom.
We bought a house from a mom upin Northern California.
I got to know him and Iapproached him.
(22:34):
I said, well, do you want to doa, do you want to do a deal?
And so we did one, just forstraight profit, and that worked
out, and so we just built fromthere.
Justin Bogard (22:43):
That's very cool man.
So how, how long have you beeninvesting in real estate then?
Richard Thornton (22:51):
Well, I mean you have to qualify that.
But yeah, I mean I.
Justin Bogard (22:55):
Okay, I'm making it your full time job.
Richard Thornton (23:01):
Gosh, my full-time job.
Oh, 30 years, 35 years,something like that, I mean you
know again riding the waves.
I was buying my first houses inthe early 80s and at that point
the game was to buy into a 100plus unit townhouse project.
Justin Bogard (23:27):
Yeah.
Richard Thornton (23:28):
And you'd buy into the first phase before they
actually had any units that youcould occupy.
And so your money sat there forsix months while they were
building the unit and theyfinally got it.
And then they started to sellphase two and phase three.
So they built in.
You know they had $20,000 toeach phase.
(23:50):
Yeah, so you had this built-inappreciation.
By the time you get throughphase four or five you'd made
$100,000.
You wait until after they sellout in phase five and you sell.
Oh sorry, you sell your unit.
Justin Bogard (24:05):
Yeah.
Richard Thornton (24:08):
And I probably did that four times.
So we just house-served andprobably House-served.
Justin Bogard (24:14):
That's a cool way of putting it.
That's awesome.
Did you ever have to calculatelike I need this much to live
off of and as long as I get thatpassive income to come in, then
the rest of it I can justfunnel into the retirement
account and then start livingoff that in the future?
Did you ever, or were you ever,somebody that did that?
Richard Thornton (24:36):
Yeah, that was my goal point.
I mean, that was my.
I truly worked from the startfrom your goal and then worked
towards that.
And if you haven't made itevery year, you haven't made it
every six months.
In other words, if you're sofar afield that you're not gonna
make it, then you better dosomething.
(24:58):
And I'm not to get too personalhere, but I, when I had my
mortgage banking company, I wasmaking a whole lot more money
than I am right now, so I had towrite some huge checks for my
divorce and that severelyknocked me off my goal towards,
and so I had to scramble.
(25:20):
And then we both know about therecession, so there wasn't a
straight path.
As much as I would like to havebeen Right, I probably would
have retired 10 years ago if Ihad not done all that, but you
would have never met me and hadall this fun right.
Justin Bogard (25:41):
I know, I know what you missed out on.
I know, I know, I know.
So what are you gonna do nowwith your time?
Are you gonna try to vacationmore?
There are certain areas in theworld that you want to visit.
Richard Thornton (25:54):
Well, yeah, I mean, there are certain areas
that we wanna visit, and I'mgonna certainly do a large part
of that.
But I went to school and got anurban planning degree and a
finance degree, as you know, andso the city of Petaluma needs
some help.
When they're general plan,they're really good at planning.
They need some help whenthey're general plan, they're
(26:15):
redoing that, and I joined acouple of typical retirement
stuff.
I joined a couple of urbanplanning groups that are citizen
oriented and I'm gonna look forsome houses.
I would do another flip with amoney partner or something like
that, a construction partner ifI could find one.
I'm afraid of constructioncosts right now.
(26:37):
Right, yeah, so I'm gonna, youknow, like I say, buy back my.
I'm gonna continue to look foropportunities on a limited scale
, and I think that's the bestway to put it in and travel a
little bit and do things that Ijust find enjoyable.
Justin Bogard (27:00):
That's awesome, man.
Well, I wish you the best inyour retirement.
I know this isn't goodbye oranything, but we definitely
wanted to congratulate you onall the success that you've had
throughout your career.
It's been fun.
I've learned a lot from you.
My most favorite thing that I'velearned from you is kind of
when I first met you I think itwas around 16 or 17, 2016, 2017,
(27:20):
was you were telling me how youwould make sure that you
recycled your money like threetimes a year.
I was like, huh, that's areally nice perspective because
that makes a lot of sense,because it kind of pushes you
for a goal and it's like, ifyou're trying to, you know
that's when we were able to fliploans like there was no
tomorrow, right, because therewas a lot out there that were
(27:40):
good deals, and if you canrecycle that money two or three
times in a year, I mean that's apretty good velocity going.
So that always stuck with me.
So I was appreciated yousharing that with me, especially
in all the other things in yourinvesting journey that have
helped me along too, because Iwouldn't be able to set up the
fund without you.
So I do appreciate that.
Richard Thornton (27:59):
Well, you've been a good partner.
You've been a very good partner, I have to admit.
I admire just seeing how youlive your life.
I admire how you handleyourself with your kids and
you've been very responsible andresponsive and that means a lot
, and has been a lot to me.
Justin Bogard (28:16):
You're welcome, my friend.
All right, guys, this isepisode number 26 of season five
, the last one of the year.
We hope you guys have anawesome, safe, happy new year
and we will see you guys in thefirst episode of season six here
coming up in January.
So, richard, thanks again, myfriend and audience, check us
out on our YouTube channel, theAmerican Notepad, as YouTube
(28:38):
channel, so you can watch thevideo stream of this podcast as
well.
Until then, guys, have a goodnew year.
Narrator (28:45):
Bye.
Thanks again for listening.
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