February 2, 2021 • 37 mins
In this episode I speak with Ursula Wharton, the founder of Deep Listeners .
Ursula shares her personal story about the loss of her son to suicide. As a result of her loss, she created a free community offering called Deep Listeners that aims "to up-skill and empower community members and organisations to be prepared and willing to listen compassionately to each other."
In this episiode Ursula shares how:
- she coped with the tragic loss of her son Josh to suicide in September 2017
- she felt the shame of being a parent that lost a child to suicide
- a local program 'Pitch for Change' allowed her to launch Deep Listeners and realise Josh's final wish for "love, peace and help[ing] the world"
- she used her grief to create a positive impact
- important it is for a community or village to participate in raising children and to support a community with deep listening
- compassion and listening without judgement are integral in helping and healing
- loneliness, isolation or alienation can impact on someone's mental health and how important social connection is
- you can access some of the upcoming free courses available through Deep Listeners (which I highly recommend for local listeners).
I was alarmed at the daily number of suicides (see statistics below). However, as a result of talking with Ursula I was left with a sense of hope. I feel we can all benefit from improving our listening skills, which may in turn help someone close to you and prevent them from self harming or harming others. This is why I decided to take part in Deep Listeners Safe Talk half-day training and signed up to do their two-day foundational course. After an unsettling 2020, I believe deep listeners could provide compassionate support to communities all over the world.
To contact Ursula about the programs she offers through Deep Listeners or to arrange to speak with a Deep Listener call 0487 638 124 (Northern Rivers only)
If this story has raised any issues for you, or you are in immediate danger of harming yourself or others, please contact emergency services on 000 or contact one of these outreach services:
Lifeline on 13 11 14
Kids Helpline on 1800 551 800
MensLine Australia on 1300 789 978
Suicide Call Back Service on 1300 659 467
Beyond Blue on 1300 22 46 36
Headspace on 1800 650 890
Suicide statistics
- Eight Australians die every day from suicide, which is more than double the road toll.
- 75% of those who take their own life are male.
- Over 65,000 Australians make a suicide attempt each year.
- In 2018, 3,046 Australians took their own life.
- Suicide is the leading cause of death for Australians between the ages of 15 and 44.
- The suicide rate in Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander peoples is twice that of their non-Indigenous counterparts.
- People in rural populations are 2 times more likely to die by suicide.
- LGBTI+ community members experience significantly higher rates of suicide than the rest of the population.
- up to 135 people are affected, for every life lost to suicide, including family members, work colleagues, friends, first responders at the time of death.
- Same-gender attracted Australians are estimated to experience up to 14 times higher rates o
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Jeremy Melder (00:00):
Hi listeners. In this episode, I just wanted to
say that we will be discussingthe subject matter of suicide.
Now, if there is any one that ishaving some issues right now and
need someone to talk to, I havelisted some numbers for
Australia that you can call onour show notes. Thank you.
(00:21):
Hello, my name is Jeremy Melder.
And I'm the presenter from bBeaming Green. Before we start,
I would like to acknowledge thatthis podcast is being held on
the traditional lands of theBundjalung people and pay our
respects to elders both pastpresent and emerging. The
Beaming Green podcast is aweekly podcast, which will help
(00:45):
you to take out some of thestress and confusion about how
to live your life moresustainably. And we do this by
introducing people that havefirst hand experience and
expertise in all aspects ofsustainability. So you can get
some amazing insight on how youcan implement the simple and
(01:07):
practical solutions to enhanceyour life and the lives of your
family.
Today, I'm speaking with UrsulaWharton, from Murwillumbah in
(01:28):
Northern New South Wales, abouther organization, Deep
Listeners, which she set up inlate 2018, after losing her son,
Josh to suicide in 2017. Iwanted to have Ursula on the
podcast, as mental health issuesare on the rise. And Deep
(01:50):
Listeners provides a much neededservice that other communities
can replicate. Ursula Walton,welcome to Beaming Green.
Ursula Wharton (02:03):
Thank you, Jeremy. It's great to be here.
Jeremy Melder (02:05):
Now I remember coming to a presentation, which
was a thing coordinated by "ItTakes a Town and Pitch for
Change.
Ursula Wharton (02:16):
Yes,
Jeremy Melder (02:17):
I think it was in 2019, if I'm not mistaken. And
you were doing a presentationabout your project that you were
about to embark on in 2019. AndI must say I was quite moved by
this project and actually votedfor you. But for our listeners,
(02:38):
if you could run us through, youknow what Deep Listeners, is and
why you started it and so on?
Ursula Wharton (02:48):
Well, I'll try and break it down. I'm always
afraid of the first question,and I end up my brain goes in
100 different directions. So thebig pitch by It Takes a Town.
They had mentored us through 12weeks. And my project Deep
Listeners. And I had come intothe project 12 odd weeks early
(03:12):
on, because I'd done a suicidealertness workshop. And I said
to the lady there, look, I'dreally like us as a community to
be able to let everyone know,I'm here I care. I will listen
to you. And she said, Oh, I likethis idea. I'm going to
introduce you to Carmen from ItTakes a Town. And that's really
(03:36):
how things started off. And backthen my idea was just a video on
social media on Murwillumbahmatters of people who had
perhaps done the training, werecommitted to listening
compassionately to people andweren't afraid to put the face
out there. So over the course ofthis 12 weeks, deep listeners
(04:00):
emerged as as the project. Andat this point deep listeners is
it's about a badge, that we canindicate that we are a person
who at this moment in time whileI'm wearing the badge, I'm
available for you undistractedfor up to an hour, no judgement
(04:23):
compassionately singing, noadvice unless asked for, you
know, all of the beautifulthings that make us feel heard
and validated. Because everyoneneeds to feel heard and
validated. And I feel that inour culture, this is happening.
Very seldom and there is a bighole in many people's lives.
(04:49):
Where we're not feeling heardand validated and seen. We don't
feel that we really belong.
Jeremy Melder (04:55):
Yeah, yeah. And why do you think that is?
Ursula Wharton (05:01):
Yeah, I was thinking just as I was coming in
about social shaping or culturalshaping, and culture is weird
beast. And it takes all of us tobe part of to shape culture. And
our culture is a littlemisshapen. At this point in
time.
(05:22):
There's so muchfocus on the individual. The me
culture and leaving everythingto the immediate family isn't in
our best interest as acommunity. And I think this is
part of where Carmen was comingfrom. Yeah, It Takes a Town.
(05:42):
There's a lot of truth in thatold saying that it takes a
village to raise a child. Andthe less our own cups are filled
with love and belonging fromthose around us, the less we
have available, I guess, yeah,to be there, for others. And I
feel that we're all walkingaround with a bit of a deficit.
Jeremy Melder (06:09):
Yeah, absolutely.
So Ursula when I asked you thequestion that, you know, why did
you start this what was reallythe catalyst for you to get
involved in? In this project? Isee the shirt that I'm wearing.
Obviously, your listners can't.
Well, just for our listeners,I'll just say it's, number one
(06:32):
is love. And number two ispeace. And number three is help
the world.
Ursula Wharton (06:40):
Yeah, so and the hashtag is Joshua's wish, Joshua
was my teenage boy. And I losthim three years ago, in
September 2017, to suicide.
So it was a preventable tragedy.
And I've come to understand alot about society's role in
(07:04):
suicide, and how suicide reallyis a whole of community issue.
You know, as much as it takes avillage to raise a child, I feel
that it takes a village forsomeone to die by suicide.
That's a bit rough, that that'sa bit accusatory, I suppose, to
(07:27):
anyone listening right now. AndI understand that. If I can
backtrack a little bit. We had acouple of really tough years
after something quite badhappened to Josh. He was 15 at
the time, and there was a lot oftrauma and shame and real
(07:51):
difficulty in processing that.
And not receiving from thepeople around him. Acceptance
and compassion for who he was,and the difficulty he was going
(08:12):
through, and how perhaps, itthat he behaved as part of it a
teenager, in real trouble. Asimmediate family, you do what
you can, and sometimes it's notuntil later that you understand
that as much as you loved andtried your hardest. If you
(08:34):
didn't have the skills that lovemay not have been received by
the person hurting. Yeah, in theway you intended it.
Jeremy Melder (08:45):
Yeah. And, and so this, this is obviously a sad
moment in your life, in losingyour, your son, and and what you
you're doing now is trying tohelp other people. And, yeah, so
(09:07):
this is you're doing somethingyou know, you're wearing a T
shirt that I know that your sonwrote those words on a post it
note or something and left itthere for you. And he's helped
you to turn that page and dosomething positive out of that.
Ursula Wharton (09:25):
Absolutely. I
Jeremy Melder (09:27):
and I want to say, I am feeling sadness for
your loss of your son. And, youknow, I'm not wanting to take
away from that by asking you thenext question. I just want to
clarify that. It is just that Ithink I'd like you to talk to
(09:47):
what you're doing about thatnow.
Ursula Wharton (09:49):
Yeah, sure. And you're absolutely right, that
Joshua's message that we callJoshua's wish, and I have a
website Joshua's wish.com Thosewords are what set my grief in a
positive direction. So it's soeasy and so tempting to fall
(10:12):
into a grief hole, especially asI mean, the shame of being a
parent who has lost a child tosuicide. I can't tell you
there's no shame in that. Thatis, you know, that is a shame
upon me, and I know a lot ofparents who've lost to suicide,
who really struggle with, Iguess, society's expectation
(10:38):
that you'll be forever scarred.
But for me, Josh left thatmessage. And I needed to honor
him and honor his memory byliving to those values that he
had given me. I certainlywouldn't say that, you know,
that this embodied how I behavedas a person before that. I
(11:01):
certainly had a thing forjustice.
Jeremy Melder (11:08):
Yeah.
Ursula Wharton (11:10):
Which is, which is carried me through. But, you
know, in those two years, I wasso desperate for help. And I saw
so many people not able to helpin the way that Josh needed
acceptance and compassion. AndI've come to believe 100% that
compassion is the medicine forall that ails us emotionally and
(11:33):
spiritually and psychologically.
And that anyone can give themedicine of compassion?
Jeremy Melder (11:42):
And do you think compassion is something that is
just a natural process thatpeople have? Or can they be
trained to have compassion?
Because we have more I'll speakfor myself, I have ideas of what
compassion is, but yours mightbe different as to another
person next to me. Absolutely.
Ursula Wharton (12:03):
And I was just looking at the Buddhist nuns,
pet Penner, Pema, Chodron thankyou very much. No good
pronunciation. And herdefinition of compassion was not
the same as mine. So Iappreciate you bringing
attention to the definition. So,for me, compassion is feeling
(12:25):
into the other person's pain,you know, really understanding
and acknowledging the person'spain, not owning it by any
means. Still owning our ownstuff, allowing them to own
their own story, feeling intothe experience that they're
having. And all emotions arevalid.
Jeremy Melder (12:44):
Yeah,
Ursula Wharton (12:44):
yeah. And with that, the second part of
compassion is being compelled toact to ease that suffering.
Jeremy Melder (12:53):
Yeah. Yeah. And when would you say that it's not
attached to an outcome? So thiscoming from a place of
compassion? You know, is not I'mdoing this because I want x, y
and Zed to have absolutely,
Ursula Wharton (13:06):
yes. Compassion must be for its own sake,
really. And in deep listeners,we've come up with nine ethics.
deep listening is not a seriesof steps. It is an attitude.
Yeah. It's an attitude that wetake to listening to somebody to
(13:30):
accepting where they're at. Andthat what they're feeling is
valid and part of the humancondition. It's not being there
with any motivation to fix. Thisis a big pitfall. Yeah, of
wanting to help is the drive tofix. We don't need to fix and
(13:54):
indeed, it's not our role to fixmany of these things.
Jeremy Melder (13:57):
And there's a lot of studies that say that not to
be put this on as men, butapparently men like to fix more
than women. Do you know what I'mI don't know if that's true or
not
Ursula Wharton (14:10):
100%? Correct, that it is gendered in different
ways. Young men are morepractical in their fixing. Women
still want to fix? Yeah, but itmight be done in a more social
way.
Jeremy Melder (14:22):
Yeah. I think in terms of the the fixing or not
fixing the listening. What'syour experience like? So for
example, in Josh's situation,when he said that he was calling
out for help. Did you feel likethat was something that you
could have attended better to ordo you feel like there was more
(14:44):
in a community because youmentioned the community, the
village weren't hearing Josh'scall?
Ursula Wharton (14:52):
I'd like to put us all in that moment of what do
we need as human beings we allneed love and belonging. And if
something really bad hashappened to you, you know,
you're not feeling a sense ofworth, and you're not feeling of
belonging, to feel love andbelonging in our village, in our
(15:12):
society, we need more than oneperson to believe in us to care
about us to validate and see andhear us. If every person you
walk past treats you asinvisible, if every person you
walk past thinks you are a badperson, if every person you walk
(15:34):
past doesn't want to hear youdoesn't want to validate you,
then your world becomes smallerand more alienated. And that
leaves people very vulnerable. Ifeel that many of the things
(15:55):
that happened to us many of thethings that we have done, can be
repaired with the compassion ofthose around us. And it does
take the reflection of a numberof people. If you we, as human
beings, I think we may use amirror to see what we look like,
(16:17):
we may use a recording, to hearwhat we sound like. But in terms
of who we are, as a being, werequire other human beings to
reflect back upon us. And ifyou're seeing 1000 mirrors, and
only one of those is showingthat you are here and you are
worthy. The message isn't verystrong. Know that you belong in
(16:40):
this world.
Jeremy Melder (16:41):
Yeah. This seems to be my observation. And you
probably got some statistics onthis is that it's on the rise,
this feeling of, you know, beingalone, not cared about? not
heard.
Ursula Wharton (16:58):
loneliness, isolation? Yeah, alienation.
They are absolutely and many ofus who are used to social
connection, and I suppose if youare so used to a lot of social
support, it's like, you know,when you injure a part of your
body, and you suddenly realizejust how important that is. If
(17:19):
you are someone who has alwayshad a lot of great social
connection around you always hadpeople who believe in you, who
see the good in you, who willhear your shame and respond with
compassion, then you might notunderstand because you haven't
lost that.
Jeremy Melder (17:35):
Yeah, yeah. What can we do about that? Knowing
that there is there is an issuenow you've obviously got this
great project that it's now inits second year. Is that right
now? 2021? Yeah.
Ursula Wharton (17:51):
It was November 2019. When when I put the
invitation out there. And moreand more people have joined all
the time, and it's still veryyoung. You know, we still spent
six months developing wall. Whatare our ethics? What does deep
listening really look like? Andhow will we do it? Exactly. So
yes, still beginning. But you'llstart to see those badges out
(18:11):
there. We've got a few peoplewho've earned them. Yeah. Look,
the vision of Deep Listeners isthat deep compassionate
listening is just part of whatwe do. Yeah, in our community.
And to embody deep listening init to be someone who contributes
(18:34):
to that vision of a morecompassionate community. We go
through those ethics. Yeah. Am Iwhen when someone's telling me
something deep, somethingpainful, something vulnerable?
Am I flicking the switch andturning off my judgment to the
best of my ability? Am I settingmy judgment aside? And just
seeing that we're all human, weall make mistakes, we're all
(18:56):
vulnerable. And thevulnerability connects us more.
Yeah. So we're suspendingjudgment. We're not giving
advice. We're withholding thefix it mode. Yeah. Fix it mode
is a real danger. Really, whatpeople what we all really need,
if we ask ourselves is to feelheard and validated about where
we're at, to get a reflectionfrom someone about where we're
(19:20):
at, and whether it's, you know,normal for for a human being to
experience? Yeah.
Jeremy Melder (19:25):
And how are you finding people? You know, I know
that you have made it, yourspecific locations that you say
that you're going to beavailable at? Is that correct?
Ursula Wharton (19:37):
Deep Listeners, is ideally organic and
authentic. So you're bumpinginto someone with a badge. Yep.
And saying, hey, you want a deepconversation? You're asking
you're inviting me to get deepwith you and connect with you
and you're promising. You'regoing to respect my privacy,
you're going to be nonjudgmental. You're going to give
(19:57):
me that hours attention. Great.
I'm in for it, let's have a deepconversation. Yeah, here's a
cafe or here's the park. Let'sdo a do a circuit. And you'll
notice as I am a bench now inthe middle of Knox Park sort of
right in the middle,
Jeremy Melder (20:12):
that's what I was alluding to. So there is a
bench, right? Yeah.
Ursula Wharton (20:15):
Yeah. So I'm very excited about that it's
under a tree. And there's enoughkind of privacy around it,
people don't really generallystop unless it's a busy weekend,
and they're picnicking on thehill beside there. And you can
pop into the markets, nine till11 on Wednesdays and things and
we'll be in the library soon aswell to wonderful. The idea what
(20:37):
I'm really hoping is that as acommunity, we'll be seeing each
other around, we listen tobadges. And, you know, I would
love to see in five years time,we don't even need them, because
this community believes in andis part of compassionate
(20:57):
listening. And we know what ittakes to listen compassionately
to each other, you know, andwhen we listen compassionately
to each other, we both benefit.
We are both connecting, andwe've our own cup is filled. And
this is one of the strangethings about compassion. And you
know, the whole sort of talkaround compassion, fatigue and
burnout. I understand wherepeople come from, in perhaps
(21:21):
having more need come at themthan they are ready to take on
or not having the time or thecapacity to do that. And Daniel
Goldman is wonderful. He says,yes, you can teach empathy. Of
course you can. Yeah. And if wetake away things like the lack
of time, we are naturally goingto be more empathetic.
Jeremy Melder (21:46):
Yeah, it's important, isn't it?
Ursula Wharton (21:47):
Yes. And yes, this is tough. We're also busy.
But one of the kinds of thingsto do is to say, I really value
you. And at this moment, I onlyhave 10 minutes, five minutes at
this moment. I actually can't.
But I really do want to connectwith you. Yeah. And I have this
time available at this point.
(22:09):
Yeah. Yeah. So we need to fillour own cup. And how do we do
that when it's such a catch 22.
And the whole of our community?
Just about? Yeah, maybe I'mbeing dramatic. Is, is feeling a
deficit?
Jeremy Melder (22:23):
Yeah. Look,speaks I speak to a few psychologists
who say that their books arefull. Oh, yes, absolutely. So
there's obviously a need forsomeone to speak to and fill
this huge, huge need. And interms of training, if I want to
become a listener, which I'mkeen to learn about, even if
it's just for my own family,just to listen to my own family.
(22:47):
I might not want to go out inthe community, but don't know as
yet. But if I wanted to, whatsort of training would I need to
do?
Ursula Wharton (22:54):
Oh, that's a perfect question. We have three
different levels of you know,coming in and being involved in
the Deep Listener idea. Yeah. Atthe first level, you just come
in, do the training, use it foryour own purposes. Perfect.
Yeah. That's great. That's whatit's for. At the second level,
you're part of the collectiveand you can access, ongoing
training, ongoing support,ongoing meetups, things like
(23:15):
that. And at the, you know, thetop level, it's quite stringent,
you have to go through a lot ofchecks, you have to meet a big
list of competencies. But weneed that, we need to make sure
that those those people who arewearing a badge can be trusted
with our darkest secrets, can betrusted to be beautiful,
compassionate people whereverthey go with the badge. So we
(23:37):
offer the training, and I'veactually got some training
coming up. Safe talk is asuicide alertness for everyone.
And it is really important thatwe all begin to open our eyes to
suicide, because actually, the,you're going to be blown away by
this statistic. I certainly was.
One in 20 people in any givenfortnight has thoughts of
(23:58):
suicide.
Jeremy Melder (24:03):
One in twenty
Ursula Wharton (24:04):
It's huge. It is so much a part of the human
condition. And for so long, wehave hidden it under the carpet.
We've pretended that it meansthat we're broken, or that it's
not happening. And this isdangerous, because not talking
about suicide. kills people.
Yeah, once we let it out intothe open once we start talking,
we're beginning to heal. Abeautiful quote, people start to
(24:27):
heal the moment they are heard.
Jeremy Melder (24:30):
Yeah, it's really important to be heard and feel
validated, validated in whatyou're feeling. Yes. You know,
it's such an important thing.
Now is that statistic I'm sorry.
Is that Australia? Yes. It's 21.
Yes. Wow. Yeah. So
Ursula Wharton (24:44):
Robert Goldman.
I think his name is has beendoing this since the 80. So it's
a general health questionnaireand it includes three different
questions around suicidalthoughts. Yeah. So golden is the
person you want to look up ifyou don't check that stuff.
mistake. So I have safe talkcoming up on the 21st of
January, I have assist, which isthe full, if you want to be able
(25:05):
to intervene properly whensomeone has thoughts of suicide,
and this is the training thatLifeline counselors do. Assist
is the way to go, I've got theweekend of the sixth and seventh
of February Murwillumbah. Andthen Deep Listening, gatekeeper
training is coming up as well.
So that's, if you're ahairdresser or a barista, or a
bartender or a coach, or if yourrole means that you are an
(25:30):
incidental listener, anincidental counselor, but you
wanting a few more skills tohelp you in that. That's what
the gatekeeper workshop is for.
It's only a four hour workshop.
And it really helps with thingslike you know, keeping your own
energies up, and what are thereal do's and don'ts and
pitfalls and, and things likethat. So that's on the 28th of
January. So all of those can beaccessed on deeplisteners.org.
Jeremy Melder (25:53):
Okay, that sounds great. Yeah, listening is such
an important element. But I alsothink it's important in the
workplace. Yes. Right. Whenyou're, you know, you work for
organizations, you know, youtalked about baristas, and so
on. But there are some biggercompanies that, you know, some
people feel hemmed in, in theirown businesses that they work
(26:14):
with, they got no one to talkto, is there a plan for you
know, sort of doing deeplistening in corporations?
Ursula Wharton (26:23):
Oh, that'd be amazing. Yeah, and I guess it's
a very much start small andabsolutely spread to wherever we
can, you know, we, human beings,no matter whether we are at
home, no matter where at play,or at work, we're still human
beings with those sameirreducible needs for love and
belonging, and feeling heard,offers both of those things, it
(26:46):
fills our spiritual cup fillsthat emotional cup. And yes, in
all of those environments, andfor me, I worked in a big place
as well, I've worked forgovernment departments, and it's
siloed away as the, what's thename for it? I'm familiar with
(27:07):
it. There's, there's a specificname. So these companies have
paid psychologists, the employeeassistance program, EAP, there
you go. You know, and, and I wasat a point once, and it's
entirely human, that we all gothrough challenges and troubles
(27:27):
and stresses. And not all ofthose are of our own making,
either quite often they're not,it's just a human thing. And I
remember needing to use the EAPand thinking, I feel rejected by
my workplace that I can't havethis conversation in my
workplace, actually. And there'ssome really wonderful research
(27:48):
about just how beneficial peerlistening is, it is actually
more beneficial than aprofessional than a
psychologist. And I believe thata lot of that is about the
authenticity. It's, it's a twoway street between human beings.
And when we place thoseworkplace barriers in front, it
(28:10):
doesn't allow us to get the fullvalue, you know, when we know
that someone is obliged to hearus and to nod, it doesn't quite
have the same values, either asyou work mate, or your friend or
your deep listener, who has noobligation whatsoever to listen
to you. But does it?
Jeremy Melder (28:27):
Yeah, look, I I totally relate to what you're
saying. Because it is siloedaway, I've had to use EAP as
well. And I felt like this is,you know, non non engaging, you
know, feels like I've beenparked off to the side. And no
one in my office knows what'sgoing on for me. And it feels
like, okay, sometimes you don'twant to share your darkest
(28:50):
secrets with people that youdon't know that well. But your
manager needs to be trained inthis to that they understand
empathy, like we were justtalking about you were just
talking about, and how tosupport someone because someone
in the organization needs toknow what's going on with Ursula
or Jeremy so that they can besupported. Because you know, if
(29:13):
their work rates go down,there's a reason behind it. And
it's not just about, you know,putting on this mask that goes
into an office and you do yourjob. And then you've parked your
emotions outside before youwalked in.
Ursula Wharton (29:27):
We're not robots, and you know what, we
have robots to do robot jobs. Weneed humans to do jobs, and we
need to own the whole human.
That is part of our workplace
Jeremy Melder (29:37):
Yeah. And I think that's so important. That's why
I brought up because I thinkorganizations are an extension
of the community. Right? Even inMurwillumbah way we live, you
know, there's a community withbigger businesses and it's like,
how do we get that empathyhappening across those
businesses,
Ursula Wharton (29:53):
is part of you know, your workplace or your
club is a big part of how youbelong. And if you're just
fitting in, if you're justwearing the mask, if you're just
doing what it takes to fit in,you're not belonging. Yeah, you
know, real belonging that reallyenriches us, is who we really
(30:16):
are being accepted for who wereally are.
Jeremy Melder (30:19):
Yeah, I think it's really important.
Ursula Wharton (30:21):
And that word, I really want to bring back that
word support. Because it's a,it's a itchy topic for me the
word support, because so often,support comes hand in hand with
that feeling of hierarchy.
You're needy, we'll help youwere better than you, you know,
and for all I have foundequality is 100%. The way to go
when we are offering support,you know, the other thing about
(30:46):
support in the workplace, justthis sentence that you said
about, we need to know how tosupport people. Do you have
ridiculous that is, yeah, thatwe, as human beings, have
somehow lost the theunderstanding of what are the
do's and don'ts of supportingpeople?
Jeremy Melder (31:05):
They don't know.
I don't feel some people don'tknow. Oh,
Ursula Wharton (31:09):
look, I absolutely didn't know. And
I've, I've been on this learningjourney, looking up all of these
academic papers and a wholebunch of things, you know, for
for a while trying to answerthat question. Well, what are
the wrong and right ways and oh,I see where I went wrong. And
just owning that I did the bestI could with what I knew at the
(31:31):
time, the tools, the resourcesthat I had at the time, and we
are all doing the best we canwith the tools and resources
that we have. Unfortunately, formost of us, they're not
sufficient.
Jeremy Melder (31:43):
Yeah, yeah. So thanks for that. Now, one of the
things that I wanted tohighlight is that you are also
supported by the Family Center,or auspiced. By the Family
Center. Yes, that's right. Yeah.
And how's that going? You whatI'm getting alluding to is, are
you needing more support interms of funding?
Ursula Wharton (32:06):
Oh, yes. Like that. Okay, so to this point,
we've, we've had a couple oflovely, generous donations from
members of the community, whichgot us through the first few
months, and we had the TweedByron Suicide Prevention
Project, which wraps up in June,they've been supporting us
through, I became a trainer insafe talk and assist, fully
(32:30):
sponsored by Tweed Byron SuicidePrevention Project. And they
also supported me in thedevelopment of the deep listener
concept, which has been amazing.
But the project is wrapping upand the Family Center auspices
us, they give us a place to putthe money where you can have a
tax deductible donation receipt,but they don't provide funding
(32:52):
for us. So yes, we werecertainly looking to the future
of, and would like, some supportto help us with the bits and
pieces. So, you know, providingthat training. And as long as I
am able to provide that trainingfor free, and the training I
mentioned before, is fullysubsidized by the Tweed Byron
Suicide Prevention Project atthis point. But as long as I can
(33:14):
keep doing that, then we cankeep boosting the level of those
skills and resources in thecommunity. Without us as people
who no one's got money, I mean,some people do, but so many of
us just can't afford to, youknow, to do this training, but
the training is so valuable foreach person, it's a value to the
(33:36):
whole community.
Jeremy Melder (33:39):
Yeah, yeah. And, and really, Ursula this has come
from your passion, or from a,what I would say, a tragedy, but
you know, for a loss of Josh,your son, or your turning around
and trying to do something forour community, and the people in
the community so that we canactually be better listeners and
(34:04):
support each other, which isreally important. So I would,
you know, be saying to thatpeople that are listening to
this podcast to support yourefforts, my giving a donation,
which is on the website as well,I'll be putting up all those
details on our, on my shownotes. And also, is there
(34:24):
anything else in terms of youknow, we've we've focused on our
local area, but you know, as youknow, this is a Australia wide
worldwide issue. Absolutely.
anyone's having any issues, youknow, outside of our area. Who
can they contact? Is thereanything you can provide me that
I can put in Australian in thenotes? Yeah, I can talk to
Ursula Wharton (34:49):
I'll give you a list. I'm not very good at
saying things off the top of myhead, but there's a beautiful
friends can't remember exactlywhat it's called. But they have
a hotline, and they're peers,which is beautiful and beyond
blue. They're all they're allpeers. Of course, there's
Lifeline, which has online andSMS family support nowadays. And
(35:11):
there are different initiativespopping up here and there, I've
actually designed deep listenersin a way that is replicable. So
that we can begin to have nodesin different communities. And
for this to grow, and part of myplan is to make the online the
training online, so that nomatter where you are, that
you'll have to pay if you're,you know, here, there and
(35:32):
everywhere to help support that.
But no matter where you are, youcan still gain those same deep
listening skills,
Jeremy Melder (35:38):
it's really important that you can replicate
what you're, you know, doing.
And yeah, look, I want to thankyou. And I mean that really,
sincerely, I think you're doinga great job, for our community.
And at large, hopefully thiswill replicate throughout the
world. And we doing great thingsfor people because I really want
to see suicide be a subject thatwe don't talk about in 20 years
(36:02):
time, because it doesn't existanymore. Yeah. But
it'd be lovely to achieve thatand have that vision or hold
that vision, because I thinkthere are people there that need
as support as community.
Ursula Wharton (36:16):
Yeah, definitely. And I think it's
possible to get very close toeradicating suicide. There are
100 projects out there that havehave actually done that. So it's
really heartening to know thatwe can, if we've got the will,
there is a way Yeah, yeah, yeah.
And deep listening is definitelypart of that.
Jeremy Melder (36:33):
Yep. So I will advertise your courses and so
on, that are coming up. Andyeah, I might even do a promo
for you in the next month, aswell, just so that we can, we
can just get you know, peoplemore aware of what's available
for you. So thank you so muchUrsulka for sharing us a part of
your life and your project.
Thank you for being part of theBeaming Green podcast. The music
(36:56):
for this podcast is produced byDave Weir now we need more
people to get onboard and raiseawareness about sustainability
and climate change. The more ofus that are shining the light on
these issues, the moregovernments and business leaders
will listen. We would love youto subscribe to our podcast, and
(37:21):
share and engage in social mediaso that we can get some
tracksion lets to support oneanother and envision a brighter
future. Thanks for listening.
See you next week.
Hi listeners. In this episode, I just wanted to
say that we will be discussingthe subject matter of suicide.
Now, if there is any one that ishaving some issues right now and
need someone to talk to, I havelisted some numbers for
Australia that you can call onour show notes. Thank you.
(00:21):
Hello, my name is Jeremy Melder.
And I'm the presenter from bBeaming Green. Before we start,
I would like to acknowledge thatthis podcast is being held on
the traditional lands of theBundjalung people and pay our
respects to elders both pastpresent and emerging. The
Beaming Green podcast is aweekly podcast, which will help
(00:45):
you to take out some of thestress and confusion about how
to live your life moresustainably. And we do this by
introducing people that havefirst hand experience and
expertise in all aspects ofsustainability. So you can get
some amazing insight on how youcan implement the simple and
(01:07):
practical solutions to enhanceyour life and the lives of your
family.
Today, I'm speaking with UrsulaWharton, from Murwillumbah in
(01:28):
Northern New South Wales, abouther organization, Deep
Listeners, which she set up inlate 2018, after losing her son,
Josh to suicide in 2017. Iwanted to have Ursula on the
podcast, as mental health issuesare on the rise. And Deep
(01:50):
Listeners provides a much neededservice that other communities
can replicate. Ursula Walton,welcome to Beaming Green.
Ursula Wharton (02:03):
Thank you, Jeremy. It's great to be here.
Jeremy Melder (02:05):
Now I remember coming to a presentation, which
was a thing coordinated by "ItTakes a Town and Pitch for
Change.
Ursula Wharton (02:16):
Yes,
Jeremy Melder (02:17):
I think it was in 2019, if I'm not mistaken. And
you were doing a presentationabout your project that you were
about to embark on in 2019. AndI must say I was quite moved by
this project and actually votedfor you. But for our listeners,
(02:38):
if you could run us through, youknow what Deep Listeners, is and
why you started it and so on?
Ursula Wharton (02:48):
Well, I'll try and break it down. I'm always
afraid of the first question,and I end up my brain goes in
100 different directions. So thebig pitch by It Takes a Town.
They had mentored us through 12weeks. And my project Deep
Listeners. And I had come intothe project 12 odd weeks early
(03:12):
on, because I'd done a suicidealertness workshop. And I said
to the lady there, look, I'dreally like us as a community to
be able to let everyone know,I'm here I care. I will listen
to you. And she said, Oh, I likethis idea. I'm going to
introduce you to Carmen from ItTakes a Town. And that's really
(03:36):
how things started off. And backthen my idea was just a video on
social media on Murwillumbahmatters of people who had
perhaps done the training, werecommitted to listening
compassionately to people andweren't afraid to put the face
out there. So over the course ofthis 12 weeks, deep listeners
(04:00):
emerged as as the project. Andat this point deep listeners is
it's about a badge, that we canindicate that we are a person
who at this moment in time whileI'm wearing the badge, I'm
available for you undistractedfor up to an hour, no judgement
(04:23):
compassionately singing, noadvice unless asked for, you
know, all of the beautifulthings that make us feel heard
and validated. Because everyoneneeds to feel heard and
validated. And I feel that inour culture, this is happening.
Very seldom and there is a bighole in many people's lives.
(04:49):
Where we're not feeling heardand validated and seen. We don't
feel that we really belong.
Jeremy Melder (04:55):
Yeah, yeah. And why do you think that is?
Ursula Wharton (05:01):
Yeah, I was thinking just as I was coming in
about social shaping or culturalshaping, and culture is weird
beast. And it takes all of us tobe part of to shape culture. And
our culture is a littlemisshapen. At this point in
time.
(05:22):
There's so muchfocus on the individual. The me
culture and leaving everythingto the immediate family isn't in
our best interest as acommunity. And I think this is
part of where Carmen was comingfrom. Yeah, It Takes a Town.
(05:42):
There's a lot of truth in thatold saying that it takes a
village to raise a child. Andthe less our own cups are filled
with love and belonging fromthose around us, the less we
have available, I guess, yeah,to be there, for others. And I
feel that we're all walkingaround with a bit of a deficit.
Jeremy Melder (06:09):
Yeah, absolutely.
So Ursula when I asked you thequestion that, you know, why did
you start this what was reallythe catalyst for you to get
involved in? In this project? Isee the shirt that I'm wearing.
Obviously, your listners can't.
Well, just for our listeners,I'll just say it's, number one
(06:32):
is love. And number two ispeace. And number three is help
the world.
Ursula Wharton (06:40):
Yeah, so and the hashtag is Joshua's wish, Joshua
was my teenage boy. And I losthim three years ago, in
September 2017, to suicide.
So it was a preventable tragedy.
And I've come to understand alot about society's role in
(07:04):
suicide, and how suicide reallyis a whole of community issue.
You know, as much as it takes avillage to raise a child, I feel
that it takes a village forsomeone to die by suicide.
That's a bit rough, that that'sa bit accusatory, I suppose, to
(07:27):
anyone listening right now. AndI understand that. If I can
backtrack a little bit. We had acouple of really tough years
after something quite badhappened to Josh. He was 15 at
the time, and there was a lot oftrauma and shame and real
(07:51):
difficulty in processing that.
And not receiving from thepeople around him. Acceptance
and compassion for who he was,and the difficulty he was going
(08:12):
through, and how perhaps, itthat he behaved as part of it a
teenager, in real trouble. Asimmediate family, you do what
you can, and sometimes it's notuntil later that you understand
that as much as you loved andtried your hardest. If you
(08:34):
didn't have the skills that lovemay not have been received by
the person hurting. Yeah, in theway you intended it.
Jeremy Melder (08:45):
Yeah. And, and so this, this is obviously a sad
moment in your life, in losingyour, your son, and and what you
you're doing now is trying tohelp other people. And, yeah, so
(09:07):
this is you're doing somethingyou know, you're wearing a T
shirt that I know that your sonwrote those words on a post it
note or something and left itthere for you. And he's helped
you to turn that page and dosomething positive out of that.
Ursula Wharton (09:25):
Absolutely. I
Jeremy Melder (09:27):
and I want to say, I am feeling sadness for
your loss of your son. And, youknow, I'm not wanting to take
away from that by asking you thenext question. I just want to
clarify that. It is just that Ithink I'd like you to talk to
(09:47):
what you're doing about thatnow.
Ursula Wharton (09:49):
Yeah, sure. And you're absolutely right, that
Joshua's message that we callJoshua's wish, and I have a
website Joshua's wish.com Thosewords are what set my grief in a
positive direction. So it's soeasy and so tempting to fall
(10:12):
into a grief hole, especially asI mean, the shame of being a
parent who has lost a child tosuicide. I can't tell you
there's no shame in that. Thatis, you know, that is a shame
upon me, and I know a lot ofparents who've lost to suicide,
who really struggle with, Iguess, society's expectation
(10:38):
that you'll be forever scarred.
But for me, Josh left thatmessage. And I needed to honor
him and honor his memory byliving to those values that he
had given me. I certainlywouldn't say that, you know,
that this embodied how I behavedas a person before that. I
(11:01):
certainly had a thing forjustice.
Jeremy Melder (11:08):
Yeah.
Ursula Wharton (11:10):
Which is, which is carried me through. But, you
know, in those two years, I wasso desperate for help. And I saw
so many people not able to helpin the way that Josh needed
acceptance and compassion. AndI've come to believe 100% that
compassion is the medicine forall that ails us emotionally and
(11:33):
spiritually and psychologically.
And that anyone can give themedicine of compassion?
Jeremy Melder (11:42):
And do you think compassion is something that is
just a natural process thatpeople have? Or can they be
trained to have compassion?
Because we have more I'll speakfor myself, I have ideas of what
compassion is, but yours mightbe different as to another
person next to me. Absolutely.
Ursula Wharton (12:03):
And I was just looking at the Buddhist nuns,
pet Penner, Pema, Chodron thankyou very much. No good
pronunciation. And herdefinition of compassion was not
the same as mine. So Iappreciate you bringing
attention to the definition. So,for me, compassion is feeling
(12:25):
into the other person's pain,you know, really understanding
and acknowledging the person'spain, not owning it by any
means. Still owning our ownstuff, allowing them to own
their own story, feeling intothe experience that they're
having. And all emotions arevalid.
Jeremy Melder (12:44):
Yeah,
Ursula Wharton (12:44):
yeah. And with that, the second part of
compassion is being compelled toact to ease that suffering.
Jeremy Melder (12:53):
Yeah. Yeah. And when would you say that it's not
attached to an outcome? So thiscoming from a place of
compassion? You know, is not I'mdoing this because I want x, y
and Zed to have absolutely,
Ursula Wharton (13:06):
yes. Compassion must be for its own sake,
really. And in deep listeners,we've come up with nine ethics.
deep listening is not a seriesof steps. It is an attitude.
Yeah. It's an attitude that wetake to listening to somebody to
(13:30):
accepting where they're at. Andthat what they're feeling is
valid and part of the humancondition. It's not being there
with any motivation to fix. Thisis a big pitfall. Yeah, of
wanting to help is the drive tofix. We don't need to fix and
(13:54):
indeed, it's not our role to fixmany of these things.
Jeremy Melder (13:57):
And there's a lot of studies that say that not to
be put this on as men, butapparently men like to fix more
than women. Do you know what I'mI don't know if that's true or
not
Ursula Wharton (14:10):
100%? Correct, that it is gendered in different
ways. Young men are morepractical in their fixing. Women
still want to fix? Yeah, but itmight be done in a more social
way.
Jeremy Melder (14:22):
Yeah. I think in terms of the the fixing or not
fixing the listening. What'syour experience like? So for
example, in Josh's situation,when he said that he was calling
out for help. Did you feel likethat was something that you
could have attended better to ordo you feel like there was more
(14:44):
in a community because youmentioned the community, the
village weren't hearing Josh'scall?
Ursula Wharton (14:52):
I'd like to put us all in that moment of what do
we need as human beings we allneed love and belonging. And if
something really bad hashappened to you, you know,
you're not feeling a sense ofworth, and you're not feeling of
belonging, to feel love andbelonging in our village, in our
(15:12):
society, we need more than oneperson to believe in us to care
about us to validate and see andhear us. If every person you
walk past treats you asinvisible, if every person you
walk past thinks you are a badperson, if every person you walk
(15:34):
past doesn't want to hear youdoesn't want to validate you,
then your world becomes smallerand more alienated. And that
leaves people very vulnerable. Ifeel that many of the things
(15:55):
that happened to us many of thethings that we have done, can be
repaired with the compassion ofthose around us. And it does
take the reflection of a numberof people. If you we, as human
beings, I think we may use amirror to see what we look like,
(16:17):
we may use a recording, to hearwhat we sound like. But in terms
of who we are, as a being, werequire other human beings to
reflect back upon us. And ifyou're seeing 1000 mirrors, and
only one of those is showingthat you are here and you are
worthy. The message isn't verystrong. Know that you belong in
(16:40):
this world.
Jeremy Melder (16:41):
Yeah. This seems to be my observation. And you
probably got some statistics onthis is that it's on the rise,
this feeling of, you know, beingalone, not cared about? not
heard.
Ursula Wharton (16:58):
loneliness, isolation? Yeah, alienation.
They are absolutely and many ofus who are used to social
connection, and I suppose if youare so used to a lot of social
support, it's like, you know,when you injure a part of your
body, and you suddenly realizejust how important that is. If
(17:19):
you are someone who has alwayshad a lot of great social
connection around you always hadpeople who believe in you, who
see the good in you, who willhear your shame and respond with
compassion, then you might notunderstand because you haven't
lost that.
Jeremy Melder (17:35):
Yeah, yeah. What can we do about that? Knowing
that there is there is an issuenow you've obviously got this
great project that it's now inits second year. Is that right
now? 2021? Yeah.
Ursula Wharton (17:51):
It was November 2019. When when I put the
invitation out there. And moreand more people have joined all
the time, and it's still veryyoung. You know, we still spent
six months developing wall. Whatare our ethics? What does deep
listening really look like? Andhow will we do it? Exactly. So
yes, still beginning. But you'llstart to see those badges out
(18:11):
there. We've got a few peoplewho've earned them. Yeah. Look,
the vision of Deep Listeners isthat deep compassionate
listening is just part of whatwe do. Yeah, in our community.
And to embody deep listening init to be someone who contributes
(18:34):
to that vision of a morecompassionate community. We go
through those ethics. Yeah. Am Iwhen when someone's telling me
something deep, somethingpainful, something vulnerable?
Am I flicking the switch andturning off my judgment to the
best of my ability? Am I settingmy judgment aside? And just
seeing that we're all human, weall make mistakes, we're all
(18:56):
vulnerable. And thevulnerability connects us more.
Yeah. So we're suspendingjudgment. We're not giving
advice. We're withholding thefix it mode. Yeah. Fix it mode
is a real danger. Really, whatpeople what we all really need,
if we ask ourselves is to feelheard and validated about where
we're at, to get a reflectionfrom someone about where we're
(19:20):
at, and whether it's, you know,normal for for a human being to
experience? Yeah.
Jeremy Melder (19:25):
And how are you finding people? You know, I know
that you have made it, yourspecific locations that you say
that you're going to beavailable at? Is that correct?
Ursula Wharton (19:37):
Deep Listeners, is ideally organic and
authentic. So you're bumpinginto someone with a badge. Yep.
And saying, hey, you want a deepconversation? You're asking
you're inviting me to get deepwith you and connect with you
and you're promising. You'regoing to respect my privacy,
you're going to be nonjudgmental. You're going to give
(19:57):
me that hours attention. Great.
I'm in for it, let's have a deepconversation. Yeah, here's a
cafe or here's the park. Let'sdo a do a circuit. And you'll
notice as I am a bench now inthe middle of Knox Park sort of
right in the middle,
Jeremy Melder (20:12):
that's what I was alluding to. So there is a
bench, right? Yeah.
Ursula Wharton (20:15):
Yeah. So I'm very excited about that it's
under a tree. And there's enoughkind of privacy around it,
people don't really generallystop unless it's a busy weekend,
and they're picnicking on thehill beside there. And you can
pop into the markets, nine till11 on Wednesdays and things and
we'll be in the library soon aswell to wonderful. The idea what
(20:37):
I'm really hoping is that as acommunity, we'll be seeing each
other around, we listen tobadges. And, you know, I would
love to see in five years time,we don't even need them, because
this community believes in andis part of compassionate
(20:57):
listening. And we know what ittakes to listen compassionately
to each other, you know, andwhen we listen compassionately
to each other, we both benefit.
We are both connecting, andwe've our own cup is filled. And
this is one of the strangethings about compassion. And you
know, the whole sort of talkaround compassion, fatigue and
burnout. I understand wherepeople come from, in perhaps
(21:21):
having more need come at themthan they are ready to take on
or not having the time or thecapacity to do that. And Daniel
Goldman is wonderful. He says,yes, you can teach empathy. Of
course you can. Yeah. And if wetake away things like the lack
of time, we are naturally goingto be more empathetic.
Jeremy Melder (21:46):
Yeah, it's important, isn't it?
Ursula Wharton (21:47):
Yes. And yes, this is tough. We're also busy.
But one of the kinds of thingsto do is to say, I really value
you. And at this moment, I onlyhave 10 minutes, five minutes at
this moment. I actually can't.
But I really do want to connectwith you. Yeah. And I have this
time available at this point.
(22:09):
Yeah. Yeah. So we need to fillour own cup. And how do we do
that when it's such a catch 22.
And the whole of our community?
Just about? Yeah, maybe I'mbeing dramatic. Is, is feeling a
deficit?
Jeremy Melder (22:23):
Yeah. Look,speaks I speak to a few psychologists
who say that their books arefull. Oh, yes, absolutely. So
there's obviously a need forsomeone to speak to and fill
this huge, huge need. And interms of training, if I want to
become a listener, which I'mkeen to learn about, even if
it's just for my own family,just to listen to my own family.
(22:47):
I might not want to go out inthe community, but don't know as
yet. But if I wanted to, whatsort of training would I need to
do?
Ursula Wharton (22:54):
Oh, that's a perfect question. We have three
different levels of you know,coming in and being involved in
the Deep Listener idea. Yeah. Atthe first level, you just come
in, do the training, use it foryour own purposes. Perfect.
Yeah. That's great. That's whatit's for. At the second level,
you're part of the collectiveand you can access, ongoing
training, ongoing support,ongoing meetups, things like
(23:15):
that. And at the, you know, thetop level, it's quite stringent,
you have to go through a lot ofchecks, you have to meet a big
list of competencies. But weneed that, we need to make sure
that those those people who arewearing a badge can be trusted
with our darkest secrets, can betrusted to be beautiful,
compassionate people whereverthey go with the badge. So we
(23:37):
offer the training, and I'veactually got some training
coming up. Safe talk is asuicide alertness for everyone.
And it is really important thatwe all begin to open our eyes to
suicide, because actually, the,you're going to be blown away by
this statistic. I certainly was.
One in 20 people in any givenfortnight has thoughts of
(23:58):
suicide.
Jeremy Melder (24:03):
One in twenty
Ursula Wharton (24:04):
It's huge. It is so much a part of the human
condition. And for so long, wehave hidden it under the carpet.
We've pretended that it meansthat we're broken, or that it's
not happening. And this isdangerous, because not talking
about suicide. kills people.
Yeah, once we let it out intothe open once we start talking,
we're beginning to heal. Abeautiful quote, people start to
(24:27):
heal the moment they are heard.
Jeremy Melder (24:30):
Yeah, it's really important to be heard and feel
validated, validated in whatyou're feeling. Yes. You know,
it's such an important thing.
Now is that statistic I'm sorry.
Is that Australia? Yes. It's 21.
Yes. Wow. Yeah. So
Ursula Wharton (24:44):
Robert Goldman.
I think his name is has beendoing this since the 80. So it's
a general health questionnaireand it includes three different
questions around suicidalthoughts. Yeah. So golden is the
person you want to look up ifyou don't check that stuff.
mistake. So I have safe talkcoming up on the 21st of
January, I have assist, which isthe full, if you want to be able
(25:05):
to intervene properly whensomeone has thoughts of suicide,
and this is the training thatLifeline counselors do. Assist
is the way to go, I've got theweekend of the sixth and seventh
of February Murwillumbah. Andthen Deep Listening, gatekeeper
training is coming up as well.
So that's, if you're ahairdresser or a barista, or a
bartender or a coach, or if yourrole means that you are an
(25:30):
incidental listener, anincidental counselor, but you
wanting a few more skills tohelp you in that. That's what
the gatekeeper workshop is for.
It's only a four hour workshop.
And it really helps with thingslike you know, keeping your own
energies up, and what are thereal do's and don'ts and
pitfalls and, and things likethat. So that's on the 28th of
January. So all of those can beaccessed on deeplisteners.org.
Jeremy Melder (25:53):
Okay, that sounds great. Yeah, listening is such
an important element. But I alsothink it's important in the
workplace. Yes. Right. Whenyou're, you know, you work for
organizations, you know, youtalked about baristas, and so
on. But there are some biggercompanies that, you know, some
people feel hemmed in, in theirown businesses that they work
(26:14):
with, they got no one to talkto, is there a plan for you
know, sort of doing deeplistening in corporations?
Ursula Wharton (26:23):
Oh, that'd be amazing. Yeah, and I guess it's
a very much start small andabsolutely spread to wherever we
can, you know, we, human beings,no matter whether we are at
home, no matter where at play,or at work, we're still human
beings with those sameirreducible needs for love and
belonging, and feeling heard,offers both of those things, it
(26:46):
fills our spiritual cup fillsthat emotional cup. And yes, in
all of those environments, andfor me, I worked in a big place
as well, I've worked forgovernment departments, and it's
siloed away as the, what's thename for it? I'm familiar with
(27:07):
it. There's, there's a specificname. So these companies have
paid psychologists, the employeeassistance program, EAP, there
you go. You know, and, and I wasat a point once, and it's
entirely human, that we all gothrough challenges and troubles
(27:27):
and stresses. And not all ofthose are of our own making,
either quite often they're not,it's just a human thing. And I
remember needing to use the EAPand thinking, I feel rejected by
my workplace that I can't havethis conversation in my
workplace, actually. And there'ssome really wonderful research
(27:48):
about just how beneficial peerlistening is, it is actually
more beneficial than aprofessional than a
psychologist. And I believe thata lot of that is about the
authenticity. It's, it's a twoway street between human beings.
And when we place thoseworkplace barriers in front, it
(28:10):
doesn't allow us to get the fullvalue, you know, when we know
that someone is obliged to hearus and to nod, it doesn't quite
have the same values, either asyou work mate, or your friend or
your deep listener, who has noobligation whatsoever to listen
to you. But does it?
Jeremy Melder (28:27):
Yeah, look, I I totally relate to what you're
saying. Because it is siloedaway, I've had to use EAP as
well. And I felt like this is,you know, non non engaging, you
know, feels like I've beenparked off to the side. And no
one in my office knows what'sgoing on for me. And it feels
like, okay, sometimes you don'twant to share your darkest
(28:50):
secrets with people that youdon't know that well. But your
manager needs to be trained inthis to that they understand
empathy, like we were justtalking about you were just
talking about, and how tosupport someone because someone
in the organization needs toknow what's going on with Ursula
or Jeremy so that they can besupported. Because you know, if
(29:13):
their work rates go down,there's a reason behind it. And
it's not just about, you know,putting on this mask that goes
into an office and you do yourjob. And then you've parked your
emotions outside before youwalked in.
Ursula Wharton (29:27):
We're not robots, and you know what, we
have robots to do robot jobs. Weneed humans to do jobs, and we
need to own the whole human.
That is part of our workplace
Jeremy Melder (29:37):
Yeah. And I think that's so important. That's why
I brought up because I thinkorganizations are an extension
of the community. Right? Even inMurwillumbah way we live, you
know, there's a community withbigger businesses and it's like,
how do we get that empathyhappening across those
businesses,
Ursula Wharton (29:53):
is part of you know, your workplace or your
club is a big part of how youbelong. And if you're just
fitting in, if you're justwearing the mask, if you're just
doing what it takes to fit in,you're not belonging. Yeah, you
know, real belonging that reallyenriches us, is who we really
(30:16):
are being accepted for who wereally are.
Jeremy Melder (30:19):
Yeah, I think it's really important.
Ursula Wharton (30:21):
And that word, I really want to bring back that
word support. Because it's a,it's a itchy topic for me the
word support, because so often,support comes hand in hand with
that feeling of hierarchy.
You're needy, we'll help youwere better than you, you know,
and for all I have foundequality is 100%. The way to go
when we are offering support,you know, the other thing about
(30:46):
support in the workplace, justthis sentence that you said
about, we need to know how tosupport people. Do you have
ridiculous that is, yeah, thatwe, as human beings, have
somehow lost the theunderstanding of what are the
do's and don'ts of supportingpeople?
Jeremy Melder (31:05):
They don't know.
I don't feel some people don'tknow. Oh,
Ursula Wharton (31:09):
look, I absolutely didn't know. And
I've, I've been on this learningjourney, looking up all of these
academic papers and a wholebunch of things, you know, for
for a while trying to answerthat question. Well, what are
the wrong and right ways and oh,I see where I went wrong. And
just owning that I did the bestI could with what I knew at the
(31:31):
time, the tools, the resourcesthat I had at the time, and we
are all doing the best we canwith the tools and resources
that we have. Unfortunately, formost of us, they're not
sufficient.
Jeremy Melder (31:43):
Yeah, yeah. So thanks for that. Now, one of the
things that I wanted tohighlight is that you are also
supported by the Family Center,or auspiced. By the Family
Center. Yes, that's right. Yeah.
And how's that going? You whatI'm getting alluding to is, are
you needing more support interms of funding?
Ursula Wharton (32:06):
Oh, yes. Like that. Okay, so to this point,
we've, we've had a couple oflovely, generous donations from
members of the community, whichgot us through the first few
months, and we had the TweedByron Suicide Prevention
Project, which wraps up in June,they've been supporting us
through, I became a trainer insafe talk and assist, fully
(32:30):
sponsored by Tweed Byron SuicidePrevention Project. And they
also supported me in thedevelopment of the deep listener
concept, which has been amazing.
But the project is wrapping upand the Family Center auspices
us, they give us a place to putthe money where you can have a
tax deductible donation receipt,but they don't provide funding
(32:52):
for us. So yes, we werecertainly looking to the future
of, and would like, some supportto help us with the bits and
pieces. So, you know, providingthat training. And as long as I
am able to provide that trainingfor free, and the training I
mentioned before, is fullysubsidized by the Tweed Byron
Suicide Prevention Project atthis point. But as long as I can
(33:14):
keep doing that, then we cankeep boosting the level of those
skills and resources in thecommunity. Without us as people
who no one's got money, I mean,some people do, but so many of
us just can't afford to, youknow, to do this training, but
the training is so valuable foreach person, it's a value to the
(33:36):
whole community.
Jeremy Melder (33:39):
Yeah, yeah. And, and really, Ursula this has come
from your passion, or from a,what I would say, a tragedy, but
you know, for a loss of Josh,your son, or your turning around
and trying to do something forour community, and the people in
the community so that we canactually be better listeners and
(34:04):
support each other, which isreally important. So I would,
you know, be saying to thatpeople that are listening to
this podcast to support yourefforts, my giving a donation,
which is on the website as well,I'll be putting up all those
details on our, on my shownotes. And also, is there
(34:24):
anything else in terms of youknow, we've we've focused on our
local area, but you know, as youknow, this is a Australia wide
worldwide issue. Absolutely.
anyone's having any issues, youknow, outside of our area. Who
can they contact? Is thereanything you can provide me that
I can put in Australian in thenotes? Yeah, I can talk to
Ursula Wharton (34:49):
I'll give you a list. I'm not very good at
saying things off the top of myhead, but there's a beautiful
friends can't remember exactlywhat it's called. But they have
a hotline, and they're peers,which is beautiful and beyond
blue. They're all they're allpeers. Of course, there's
Lifeline, which has online andSMS family support nowadays. And
(35:11):
there are different initiativespopping up here and there, I've
actually designed deep listenersin a way that is replicable. So
that we can begin to have nodesin different communities. And
for this to grow, and part of myplan is to make the online the
training online, so that nomatter where you are, that
you'll have to pay if you're,you know, here, there and
(35:32):
everywhere to help support that.
But no matter where you are, youcan still gain those same deep
listening skills,
Jeremy Melder (35:38):
it's really important that you can replicate
what you're, you know, doing.
And yeah, look, I want to thankyou. And I mean that really,
sincerely, I think you're doinga great job, for our community.
And at large, hopefully thiswill replicate throughout the
world. And we doing great thingsfor people because I really want
to see suicide be a subject thatwe don't talk about in 20 years
(36:02):
time, because it doesn't existanymore. Yeah. But
it'd be lovely to achieve thatand have that vision or hold
that vision, because I thinkthere are people there that need
as support as community.
Ursula Wharton (36:16):
Yeah, definitely. And I think it's
possible to get very close toeradicating suicide. There are
100 projects out there that havehave actually done that. So it's
really heartening to know thatwe can, if we've got the will,
there is a way Yeah, yeah, yeah.
And deep listening is definitelypart of that.
Jeremy Melder (36:33):
Yep. So I will advertise your courses and so
on, that are coming up. Andyeah, I might even do a promo
for you in the next month, aswell, just so that we can, we
can just get you know, peoplemore aware of what's available
for you. So thank you so muchUrsulka for sharing us a part of
your life and your project.
Thank you for being part of theBeaming Green podcast. The music
(36:56):
for this podcast is produced byDave Weir now we need more
people to get onboard and raiseawareness about sustainability
and climate change. The more ofus that are shining the light on
these issues, the moregovernments and business leaders
will listen. We would love youto subscribe to our podcast, and
(37:21):
share and engage in social mediaso that we can get some
tracksion lets to support oneanother and envision a brighter
future. Thanks for listening.
See you next week.
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