Breeding Big Game Hounds with Steve Herd

Steve Herd has been breeding big game hounds for decades and has been around them his whole life. Steve's strain of dogs are known as Bluff Creek Plotts. He's got some insight into consistently producing hounds bear hounds generation after generation. This is our second podcast with Steve and we're sure you'll learn something. His passion and enthusiasm for what he's devoted his life to is sure to entertain and teach.

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
You're listening to the Sportsman's Nation podcast network, brought to
you by Interstate Batteries. Now, it's that time of year
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dot Com awesome company. Check them out. So I will

(00:51):
regret forever the crosses that I did not make with
you with them. That's a good statement right there. You'll
never regret across that you did make as you can
correct it, or you do regret the crosses that you
didn't make because you're gone. You're gone. I mean, the
list goes on. There's no other animal in the world
that has to be bred to such a consistency of

(01:13):
high caliber as what a trailhound. A big game is
into me, and and and so far no one has
contradicted that statement. By the way, I mean, you know,
a show dog has to look for it in the ring,
you know, but that's a legal run hounds. You can
turn your pots after him. My name is Clay Nukeleman.

(01:42):
I'm the host of the Bear Hunting Magazine podcast. I'll
also be your host into the world of hunting the
icon of North American wilderness. We'll talk about tactics, gear, conservation,
but will also bring you into some of the wildest
country on the planet. Chasing bear on this episode of

(02:12):
the Bear Hunting Magazine podcast, where again with plot breeder
Steve heard of Bluff Creek plots and we're specifically talking
about breeding big game hounds. You're gonna really enjoy this
podcast with Steve. What a character. Hey, I want to
draw your attention to our actual print magazine, Bear Hunting Magazine.

(02:34):
Bear Hunting Magazine has been in print for twenty years.
We're the only dedicated bear hunting print publication in the world.
It's true in Bear Hunting Magazine, if you're not familiar
with it, you would see bear hunting displayed in all
its majestic forms, from hunting with hounds to hunting over
bait to spotting stock hunting in the West, the black

(02:55):
bear is an incredibly diverse animal, ranges and incredible places,
and we hunt them in all different ways. And the
Bear Hunting Magazine we're trying to show the full gamut
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(03:20):
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a favor and do yourself a favor by becoming a
subscriber to Bear Hunting Magazine at bear dash hunting dot com. Secondly,
the second thing that you could do to help us
would hate give us a review in iTunes or wherever

(03:43):
you listen to podcasts, like a like a written review,
even anything you say would be great. And uh also,
you know there's those five stars, and I'm not trying
to twist your arm, but it would be great if
we could lean far to the right on that line
of stars. Right in that five star region. But that

(04:03):
helps us with Google and you know, the Internet and such. Hey,
if you're gonna enjoy this podcast with my friend Steve
Heard Colt, Welcome to the Bear Hunting Magazine podcast. We're

(04:27):
here again with my good friend Steve Heard Colton Heard.
And as you heard from the last podcast, we we
talked about these plot dogs that Steve has been uh
involved with his whole life, and we talked about we
had all kinds of stories and all kinds of history
about his dad and all these is a super neat,

(04:50):
super neat conversation that we had. What I want to
do on this podcast, though, is let's hone down our
our focus to something that I think you've got some
well you've got a lifetime of history with that. I
also think you have some unique insight. And beyond unique insight,
I think that you're able to articulate a very nuanced

(05:11):
subject that probably there's a lot of great dog breeders
in the country, animal breeders even this isn't even just
about dogs even, but but I find that maybe they
just aren't willing to tell what they know. But but
but you are, and no, you're able to articulate some
of the things that that you have done and have

(05:34):
seen and have experienced and have had the the time
to evaluate. I mean, so it's not just like me
going out and having the litter of pups and two
years later making big assumptions about dog breeding. But what
we're gonna talk about is breeding big game dogs and um.
And so you wrote an article for Bare Honey magazine

(05:56):
several years ago that had a lot of interest and uh.
And you know what, I appreciate somebody that's just willing
to say what they think, Steve. I find that a
lot of people, if they have strong opinions, they're afraid
to say them because they're fearful that people will think
they're being prideful. I agree with that, well, but I
but I do it anyway. But that's that's not no, no,
what you're doing to me. It is right. You're just saying, hey,

(06:18):
this is what I do. I've built, I've done this
for a lifetime, this is what I do. I'm not
saying it's the best. I'm not saying it's the only way.
I'm not saying it's the right way. I'm saying it's
the way that and and maybe I can help guide somebody.
Maybe I can help guide somebody, but but do it,
you know, do it your own way. If it succeeds. Okay, now,
and once again, maybe some of it was maybe some

(06:40):
of the first of it was luck. But also but
when I knowing what I knew from the from the
past history of the dogs, when I made my bouncer
to Donna and bouncer to suit crosses, I thought, how
can it go wrong when all those old timers have
put all their time into this effort of breeding this
kind of a dog. And then I have exactly what
I'm looking for right here in front of me. So

(07:01):
if I breed them together, surely it will turn out
that way. Well. First off, for you to ever, if
you're ever going to breed anything, which is like you say, horses,
game chickens or whatever. Hey, your history and we didn't
touch on it last time, but you you breed horses,
they're rich. Irogen steak candas right now, and there's something
too before you even dive in, because I know you're

(07:22):
gonna jump in, and that's exactly what I want you
to do. I want to say that I have I
you know, when you think about breeding dogs or breeding animals.
You think that you're dealing with things that are like
really tangible, but oftentimes it's the intangible characteristics qualities of
these animals that people that just have a knack for

(07:44):
breeding animals understand. And by a knack for breeding animals,
anybody can put two male and females together and make
a litter puss. But to breed animals that have long term,
consistent deduction of the qualities that you're after. Okay, here,
here's here's something I hate to say, but you have
to say you you are probably born. You are probably

(08:07):
born with an instinct to either be able to do
it or not. Okay, So I believe that that there's
there's natural human beings that are I call him master breeders,
and some people don't like that term, but but I
believe there. Gola Ferguson was the first master breeder that
I know. Okay. He he took a bunch of animals

(08:28):
and each generation got better. Okay, and I'm I'm still
using dogs from that generation, those generations of his. But
but first off, I had to say that you probably
you may have it the ability, you may not have
the ability, but if you do have it, you have
to hone it. So Colton originally started out, you just
didn't want the puffs that he was picking, okay, because

(08:50):
they're they're the big, slumpy, the funny one that you know,
the one that you want on the porch and you
want to lay on your lap or stuff. But I mean,
my granddad was a great breeder of draft horses and
mules and all sorts of stuff and showcattle. Okay, so
Colton headed in there, but he had to hone that.
So craft yeah, yeah, so he so he his little
eyes watched his I said, well that looks kind of

(09:11):
like Reno, and that kind of looks like scar and
and they see that look in her eye. Well you
know this pup here, this looks like the right pup.
So he picked Usher and that was that was the
very first time that he passed. You know, he passed
in flight. So on the previous podcast we talked about
how so Culton's here with this Culton's Coulton is a
Steve Sun twenty one years old. And then you picked
up you picked this dog Buster. So that's why your Ferr,

(09:33):
which turned out to be a great dog. And there
was the test. There was something that just jumped into
the podcast. You said, son, do you see the same thing.
I see. There's a nine nine pups, and you picked
the one that your dad I think. I think I
actually used to just pick the biggest one, the biggest
puff out of the litter, you know, the biggest. I
think that's what there are people do that and then

(09:53):
sometimes they always picked the smallest. But the you need
to pick pick the one that that that acts the
most and looks the most and resembles the most to
the to the best dogs you've had in the past past.
So so that's part of it, okay, But then breeding
it's it's you have to use the word gut feeling
in my gut when I when I made that those

(10:15):
first two crosses here, I was some kid that you know,
from from a from a good family, you know, Dwayne heard.
But but I had a gut feeling that if I
did this, it was gonna work, okay, because I had
seen the Judd dog and that's the way he was read.
And so my gut told me if I did the
same thing that the other people have done, I was
gonna it was gonna work. And it did, and it did, okay.
But there you were using you were using pedigrees, Yes,

(10:37):
very much, and you still do. When somebody tells me
they don't give a ding about a pedigree, And I
would mention some very famous plot me in from the
past that said they didn't give a rats rear about
a pedigree. And guess what, they never read for more
than one generation. They would breed and they sell, and
they never produced. They never produced three generations ever. And
it's extreme. I've said it in my article for your myazing.

(11:00):
It's extremely hard to breed for three generations and and
not lose what you started with. Because people make bad
decisions because they're gut told them to do something that
probably shouldn't have been done. Okay, but there's just there's
there's there's tangible deals. Uh, so many things. The color
of a dog can make a difference because that that

(11:20):
dog inherited that color coat from some dogs in the past.
So were those lighter brintle dogs, were they as good
as the darker brintle dogs. Well, history tells you know
they weren't. So you first off, you have to know
the history of what you're doing, whether you're breeding horses
once again or anything. And and see that would be
a little bit of a controversial thing, right Exactly. A
lot of people say, well, color doesn't matter at all. Yeah, okay,

(11:43):
but but for each strain it does. Okay, if you're
if you're gonna go, if you're gonna go buy you
a milk cow and you wanted a lot of production,
You're not gonna go buy a Herford cow. You're gonna
go buy a cow with great, big white cow with
big black spots on them. Okay, because you know why
that color is a holsting and they produce milk indicator.
It's an indicator. Well, And and once again I had

(12:05):
Dan Wagner's a good buddy of mine, and we talked
genetics all the time, and even and he he doesn't
want to agree, kind of Daniel, you'll enjoy this, but
but he but he does, but he does, you know,
agree that somehow I see something that other people don't see.
And and there's just certain things in a dog. And
if I there's a certain look to a dog, and

(12:25):
if I see it could be the color could be
a little bit handy looking, feet might be a little
bit spreadled, and and that I exclude that dog from
from my from even my possibilities. Okay, and so someday
down the line, said Stella died five weeks breakdant to
Bold said, you know, maybe somewhere down line, I'm going
to trip up, and I'm not gonna be able to
find that dog I need to great, although I think

(12:47):
there's a lot of possibilities out there still, Okay, and
uh So it's it's what do you if we could
even dial it back, Okay, go ahead, what would you
say the fundamentals of uh and and and maybe that's
what you've been talking about. What what are the fundamentals
of good three? The greatest dogs I've ever seen were

(13:09):
from the greatest pedigrees that I've ever seen, and those
and a great pedigree means that these dogs were. But
when you when you look at a pedigree, when you
look at Judge pedigree, you saw, you know, one of
the best reproducers in the nation right there, You're you're
looking at the greatest the greatest female. Uh the greatest

(13:31):
two females in the nation at that time. We're right
there and so and they were all complete really related
cousins to each other. So how could you how could
you not be right by attempting to do this. Now,
I have made my mistakes, but I buried my mistakes. Okay,
I mean, you know, some of those gut feeings didn't
quite work out, but even them, even then, sometimes those

(13:54):
gut feelings, I knew, I'm not sure about this, but
let's give it a try. And sometimes it just flat
didn't work. And and sometimes you can take two dogs
that are really well bred, but they share a common ancestor. Uh,
my Cindy female was really hyper well. One time, accidentally
we made it a daughter of Cindy to a mail
to uh, to a female of Cindy. And and somebody

(14:15):
thought that would be a wonderful petigree. It should look
It looked good on paper, but I knew that's if
you put Cindy in there that close twice, that something
was gonna work. So so I would I would wish
like heck that I could have talked to Golda Ferguson,
because he said that with each generation he started, he added,
he added a high tan, kind of a black and tan,

(14:37):
but not a like a registered black and tanbit he
ordered added a high tan into his plot family and
produced the saddleback plots, which would have been North Carolina,
Tom and Nichols, Stormy and all those. And with each
generation his dogs got a little smaller and a little darker,
and eventually they were all There's no there was no
light colored dogs lifting there. Okay, so the light daughter

(14:58):
the light. There's be a lot of people listen to
this plot, people that say, well, you know, my dogs
are light colored and they suit me fine. But they're
from a different strain than what I'm talking. Okay. And
if you had an Isaiah kid dog or Croctitter crocodigle,
they're gonna be light because that's what color they were. Okay,
So if you want to go catch a hog and
you want a Tator crocod dog, they're gonna be lighter
colored dogs. And that I'm not taking anything away from them.
I'm just saying the wams Bluff Greek strain did as

(15:21):
falls and strain. They what you were doing your best
dogs with the darker dog and then the color of white. Uh. There.
I went to plot the in m p A h
A National Plot Hand So yeah, m P h A
about five years ago, and what I saw in the
grounds was earth shaking. It was I just saw dogs

(15:43):
of every color. I would see one litter of puppies
out of a Grand Knight Champion mail and there was
seven pups in there, and there was six different colors
of pups in the litter, and white all over them.
Well that white. Some of the plots back in the
past had some white in them. But I have a
whole stack of pictures right here in front of me, okay,
And if you look through them, and I show you

(16:04):
all the all, the very best, the very best twelve
and the very best twenty, there's not one dog, not
one single dog with excessive white on the on their
They have a lot of them have white on their
on their on their chest, but up their legs. Never,
not once ever that shows impurity. It always has. And
by the way, when my dad got in, dad loved

(16:25):
those dogs and he kept thinking he needed more of them,
and he got several dogs from several people. I have
the pictures in here right here. I'll show them for
you before you leave. And and and the ones that
didn't look like plots, did not hunt like plots. The
ones that had the white all over them, and they
were there was it. You just went backwards immediately. So uh,
And there's there's just there's a lot of just little

(16:46):
teeny things that I believe makes the difference between breeding
good dogs and breeding exceptional dogs. But most of it
is eyesight, and a lot of us is hunting, and
a lot of it is you know, when you send
the puppies out, let everybody, let's let you know, like
your ferm female, I need to know exactly how that
letter turned out, Okay, And would I make it again?
Of course I would, you know if if if buster

(17:07):
was still a love, of course I would. So, So
what talk to me about line breeding? And you're because
that's that's something that maybe a lot of people wouldn't
you know, have steered away from a lot of people
would probably it was totally familiar with it. It It was taboo.
Linebreeding originally was taboo you want unrelated dogs. Well, when
as soon as you did, you just killed whatever you had, Okay,

(17:29):
I mean by killing, I'm talking about you killed the genetics,
so what you had. So then later it was became
what they kind of called liebreeding, which would you bread
a cousin to a cousin, which means that you know,
three generation pedigree. You'd have maybe two dogs and there
who were either brother and sister or were similar or whatever.
And then all of a sudden we found out that
maybe the closer you bread those dogs, the better they did.

(17:51):
And then we started doing inbreeding, which was you know,
bare Pats Gunner to to to Becky. They were both
by the same daddy and their mother. There were three
quarters sisters, and we breed made that cross and oh
my gosh, the pups were better than anything before. So
so when you when you keep adding real good stuff
to the mix, it doesn't dilute the mix. It increases

(18:13):
the chances of that of the mixed working. And so
what people the kind of the colloquial knowledge I guess,
if that's a good way to say it of inbreeding
would be that you'd produced dogs that were inferior in
some way and that five legs and run back have
real big health problems. Let me let me I would

(18:34):
like to make a statement about that, because my some
people have had my my uncle got a Schnauzer. They
were big into Schnauzers. They bought these schnauzers and they
bought them from a reputable breeder quote unquote, quote unquote,
and the dogs end up having health problems when they
were older, and he found out that they were bred

(18:55):
real clothes, and he said, yeah, inbreeding is bad, or
you know, slide breeding is bad. The difference between what
that breeder was doing with Schnauzers and what you guys
are doing with bear dogs is that these dogs are
being bred based upon performance in the field over the
lifetime and so health problems. I mean, point me, and

(19:18):
those Schnauzers were just bred to be house dogs and
have these phenotype or just this external look. You guys
are breeding for physical performance and if they don't have it,
you you're limited. You don't So that that to me
makes rational sense of how and then all these dogs
aren't physically have some problem and and and once again

(19:38):
back to the article. If folks, if you haven't seen
the article, you really need to read it as you
as you read your dogs really close. If if you
do have a physical fault or something shows up, then
you can eliminate it from the gene pool. Okay, I
mean you're harvesting off the bed jeans and and eliminating
sometimes and this isn't what you're doing over and over
every time. I mean, it's a the most I don't

(20:01):
want to I want to say that right away. It's
an extreme case where you would breathe as close as
the gunner back across. Yeah, And you know I haven't
done it again, but I would, if you know, if
I thought yeah. And I just want to make that
clear because somebody you're not saying you're breathing brother and
sister together all the time. No, no, no, no, no
no no. But but don't do not not make a

(20:23):
cross because you're afraid to do close. Give it a try,
give it a try again. And once again, my famous
statement is I never regretted across I ever made, because
I could eliminate it if it didn't work. But I
so desperately I'd never read the jud dog to Sue,
and they were half brother and sister, and I wish
I would have, but people thought it was too close.
And so I will regret forever the crosses that I
did not make with you know, with them. That's a

(20:46):
good statement right there, that you'll never regret across that
you did make because you can correct it. But you
do regret the crosses that you didn't make from because
they're gone. You're gone. Yeah, Dad had a chance. Dad
had a chance to take real grand Trouble to Cape Gerard,
Missouri and breed to Rag Nicholas's world famous stormy dog.
It was her uncle. Most people thought it was too close,

(21:08):
But had he have done that, it would have been
the strongest bloodline cross ever made in the plot breed
as far as I know. Okay, it would have been
nor it would have been a smokey Cubby on top
bread to a daughter of a smoky cubby onto a
daughter of of plots Fanny and Lady. But it would
have been the strongest pedigree of all times. And it
would still you would still be seeing it in pedigrees everywhere. Okay,

(21:29):
so we're what we do. Dennis Fawlson was one of
the originators. I hope Dennis is still alive, but we
wish you could hear this. Uh. He taught me some things.
You know, stack, stack all those good dogs that you
possibly can, because what you're doing, you're filling holes in
that pedigree, and you're replacing a weaker dog with a
really really good dog, and when you get him anit
or enough, you can kind of know what's gonna come

(21:50):
out the other end. You were a kins what about
you said something on the earlier podcast about you know
you've got a If you want a stack of gold,
you can't start with bricks and painted. I mean, talk
to somebody that maybe give somebody some advice that's just
getting started or wanting to create a dog. Don't ever,
don't ever start a breeding program with dogs that are

(22:13):
not as good as you possibly can get. Ahold of
what Okay, let me let me throw some gasoline on
the fire. What if you had a dog that had
a really strong trait that you liked, but he was
super weak and a bunch of other areas you said
a bunch and that when when you said a bunch
that elimited that dog? Okay, if you if you just
said one maybe you know, maybe a a little bit
shy here. Well then, because I think what happens is

(22:35):
guys will guys will get a dog that's strong in
one area. He likes this dog, but he's got weakness here,
and so he'll breed another dog trying to create eliminate
the weakness, but actually he just gets more of the same.
You know, I keep I keep having to repeat myself,

(22:55):
but in the bear hunting article in there, oh no,
I just forgot my my trade of thought. I was
watching the Clean the Table. H yeah, start overs. Yeah,
back me up. Okay, what what I've what I've heard
people say is don't breed a dog that you wouldn't
want another one exactly. Yeah, I mean, don't don't breed
dogs just to be breeding dogs, if you if you

(23:17):
like you know, I want to know the buster. I
want another Stella. And I told Colton on the way down,
I've got a couple of crosses in mind, and if
something works here in the next couple of months, we're
gonna have another one of them supercrosses. Okay, and I
already know how it's gonna work out. Okay, But but
but I I want to I want to produce even
higher than I have have produced, or at least that
at least that good. And you know, don't ever, there's

(23:41):
a I guess you'd call a famous strand of dogs
bare dogs that started and then and the guy is
a really good guy, and and he he tells that
he began with a female that needed corrected in this
and this and this and this department, like five or
six departments. Okay, and guess what it's been. She's been
dead for twenty five years. And that line of dogs

(24:01):
still needs corrected, and also that you do you just
if you're lucky enough to get started with the greatest
thing you can possibly find, and if if you can't,
then stand in line, get a pup out of it,
out of what you're looking for, and then go from
there do everything you can post. So have you ever
done I mean, I guess you've done outcrossing that different times?

(24:22):
When do you outcross? You know? You don't? You don't know.
And once again that'll be an argument. You know, if
we were sitting around guys, they'll say, oh, eventually you
have to, but no, no, you don't know what you do.
Why why would you if you if you had a
bunch of dogs that you could we rate nine and tens,
why would you outcross to another strain that's that that
only produces sixes and sevens? Well what if they produce

(24:43):
nines too? Though? It's I mean, but you know what
I'm saying, I know what. They're not out there. Yeah,
I'm sorry, but they're not. I mean, I know I'm
saying that. I'm saying that that each of us probably
has our Well, I guess the question I'm asking is
that if you had some really good dogs from another

(25:03):
family dogs and he had another totally said, I mean
they getting meat and tail way back, same breed of dogs.
I mean that still may not work. Well, no, no,
because there's you can have pure milk and you can
have pure oil. Both of them are your necess necessities. Okay,

(25:26):
but if you put them together, what do you got
you gotta miss? So what I'm saying, I mean, I'm sorry,
And this is what it's worked for you. We said
this at the beginning, but I like here and your
unfiltered thoughts, because this is the way that you've done it,
and it's worked for you. If you include I have
all these pictures here, If you include dead's dogs, we
have a living generations. Okay. And with that old trouble

(25:48):
female is that that got out of the creek when
I was four years old? Well who and you told
me to just speak out, and I really kind of
hate you. Who can claim the same that for sixty
six years the very first dog you ever saw, is
you you still have that line, that very same line

(26:09):
of dogs eleven generations later, sixty six years later, that
would be six years per strain. Nobody can say that.
And by the way, we didn't have to keep jumping
from one strain to another strain to another strainer to
try to find him. Dad started with what he thought
was the best, and we bread to the best, and
we still have that same line of dogs right here
and there is consistent. Is opened up a can of

(26:31):
you know, viing a sausage. I mean, they're all just Steve.
Have you could so with your history with breeding thirdbred
horses and cattle and different things, are there any are
there parallels? Are there anything that you learned? Well? Yes, okay,
the the quarter horse people finally kind of made it
okay to breed real close and nobody in the horse world.

(26:56):
It takes too long to do. You know, nine three
there in forty days for a baby colt to be
born from the time it's conceived, and then you got
another year before you get it all weaned and you know,
started in training. Then you have another year before you
find out what it's gonna do, whether it's a roping horse,
a race horse, or whatever. It takes so long and
so much energy and so much time too. You can't

(27:18):
experiment like you can space with game chickens. By the way,
game chickens where I still keep some around just for fun.
And and they were the first people to really start
learning how to breed animals. Okay, then the dogs, you
can do that, because you can. You know, you get
two letters pups a year. But they're afraid. There's the
third red people in the quarter. Of course, people are
still afraid to breed really really close. You just don't.

(27:39):
You just don't see it happening. And I would like to.
I think I'm getting too old to do it. But
what I did when I took my I had a
staying named Speeding Niuginski and and his dad was a
famous horse from from uh He won the trouble crown
in Europe. Okay. And what I did was I looked
for for for mayors that were very close to him,
and I took him from a slaughter truck. I was

(28:00):
he was gonna get loaded onto hold of the slaughter
and I made him the second leading stade in the
state of Kansas for several years and his colts earned
over a million bucks. Okay. And what I did was
I bread two mayors that that had similar pedigrees to
what he had. By the way, that would include Seattle,
Slew and Secretariat. Okay, they came from the same family
of horse. So using my knowledge of dog breeding, I

(28:21):
and now I have another staying up there, and and
I'm doing the same thing I'm trying to find. I'm
trying to find clig kind of tired of reason over
and pulling that we could tie them from seating. But
uh but uh, you know what I'm doing with him
is doing the same thing. I'm trying to find mayors
that you so you took your dog breeding knowledge, and

(28:43):
and we're gonna and we have we have a mayor
right now that I'm gonna prag check money and if
she's in full, we're gonna see just how far uh
I mean, I think we're gonna have a tremendous horse
that there's no reason for her not to Okay, and
once again go back, Well, my speeding Agnski's horse, his
sister won the Kentucky Oaks and she was she was

(29:06):
purchased for three point four million dollars and took over
to you know, Arab Emirates or whatever. So we we
were in the right crowd at the time. But the
Kansas doesn't you know, we're not real big in their
red breeding up there, and most good horses, bread or
bread in Kentucky. And once again, those people down are
spend millions of dollars to breed and they still can't
produce another their secretariat. Well, you know, people, a lot

(29:28):
of people think they've produced another barre path of Gunner.
But the truth is nobody else has. And we may neighbor,
you know, we're still trying, okay, And of course Colton
thinks that Buster could have still ran every step of
the way with him, and guess what, we'll never know.
And he might have, He really might have. But they
don't come by. It's not like picking apples off a tree. Okay.
There really exceptional ones of anything are are very rare,

(29:50):
you know. And you know, and once again in on
the plot boards, you know, when we've done a lot
of arguing, some people say, oh my god, the dogs
are so much better than they used to be in
the horse are better than the used tob I said, well, secretary, record,
we're set in nineteen seventy three. All three of them,
the Preakness of elmat in the Kentucky Tory. They've never
been touched, no one's ever run close to them. So
and hey, that is a good question that I think

(30:12):
a lot of people ask, probably on all the forums
for any kind of dog, is that, Yeah, do you
think the dogs are getting better? There's more good dogs.
There's more good dogs because people in this day and
age won't keep the junk, and a lot of times
people just kept junk. A lot of people just kind
of like to have a dog tied out there. But
but there's I don't know where to go lay my

(30:34):
hands on another Gunner or another Stella or another Buster
or another you know, uh time X of Joe Hudson's
or you know those super dogs. I don't I don't
know where to go find one right this minute. Okay,
I mean we're all hoping we have that we have one.
But if you haven't seen exceptional, you don't know how
to rate exceptional. Okay, that's that's that's something else that

(30:55):
we say. Joe Hudson, I say the same thing. If
you haven't seen it, you don't really know what you're
talking about. Yeah, you think you do, So would you
say that you're trying to like hold the line though,
I mean, like if you think about no. But but
once again, we're producing at such a high level that
each person that gets them thinks it's the rest of
redist dog they've ever had. Once again, the Jackpot, you

(31:16):
know up there, Stubby Ryan, stubble Phils Jackpot is just
an exceptional dog. Okay. And and they're out there there,
I mean even you know, there's several of that of
that generation out there. Talk to me about the differences
between dogs and the literacty because you know, we all
know that not every dog, I mean, even a well bred,
well bred litter, not every dog is going to be

(31:39):
a phenomenal dog phenomen as they So you know, you're
trying to as a breeder. One of the key things
in breeding, I believe because I've seen it in other
breeders as well as that you've got to keep your
eye on a whole litteral dogs. You know, a lot
of guys and other different uh disciplines of dog. Uh.

(32:01):
You might have a litter of pups and sell these
pups and lose track ups, so you don't really know,
you don't get that feedback. Bear hunters are very good.
Big game hunters are good keeping dogs close or keeping
keeping reports, getting reports back on dogs. And yeah, when
I sent you know, and you can breed back to
really good dogs, like, for instance, that when I got
my fern from you that June, well, I was Bold

(32:23):
in June when you ended up, you know, keeping track
of Bolden June. And then you know, Bold ended up
being a dog that you wanted to bring back into
And so if you had just been a guy just
not keeping track, you would have never known about that. No, No,
I know. I when I set a pup to somebody,
they have to report in you. And the truth is
if they don't, then they you know, they called me

(32:44):
back four years later. I know. You know, that's why
I text you at eleven o'clock at night. And Travis
Staves has always been wonderful. He you know, he just
Travis said a lot of my dogs and he texts
me from the tree all the time. He used to
thrill my mom and dad to death. I would be
in New Mexico or Alreader or Utah or West constin
Michigan and call them from a tree. The dog's barking

(33:04):
in the background, and my dad would just be thrilled
to death. Mom said, you ought to see me actually
like a little kid over here. You know the worst
they got that bear tree. Listen to this. You can
hear that just I mean, and he never got to
go to a tree. Joe Hudson told me that if
I would bring him up there, you know, a year
before he passed away, that he would carry him to
a tree. Said if if if we treat a bear,
I'll carry all the way. So and I wish, I

(33:27):
wish we would try to, you know, get a one
of them travois or whatever the Indian people'head, you know,
get him to the trees so you get the And
to go back to what I was saying. And I
don't know if there's a real question inside of this question,
but like like, uh, differences in a litter, Like if
you have pups, there's gonna be one of them. That's

(33:49):
that's good. And yeah, Colton and I I'm not saying
Brenda because brand has been living on his own for
a long time, but Colton has been at home all
this time, and we there's there's an odd and I've
been asked this question, why is it that out of
the eight pups in the litter, that the two that
you keep are always the best. And I've seen that happens.

(34:13):
It's because they get to run loose on the creek.
They get, they get given every everything in the where
and then I'm gonna I have to say it again.
We don't use electricity on our dogs. We do not
use it. Uh. My strain of dogs has always been
wide open. Some people tell me now that they're becoming quiet,
and the reason they're becoming quiet they can't stand that

(34:34):
shock there that they still want to hunt, but they're
afraid to open your mouth because they're afraid somebody's gonna
bust them. You know what I'm saying, And I so
what what I'm hearing you say, though, is good. You're
you're letting these litters run loose. And if so, you
guys are watching these dogs. Yeah, and that's why when
we take them anywhere, that's why, when we take them anywhere,
they're always in shape. Our dogs. You'll never see them

(34:56):
behind because they've been running loose for so long. They're
they're slender, and they're ready to get. The very first
time we hunted with Joe, Jenny and Bernie and Travis
and all those guys, what what whether What they wrote
on the plot site was what we were so surprised about.
Steve drove all night long, slept from four o'clock in
the morning till seven o'clock in the morning three hours
got up the next day, the dog still on the
dog box and went hunting, drump loose and Steve dogs

(35:17):
still ran on the front end, and they said, how
does that happen? First off, their coon dogs, and they've
been in to create all this, all the way up here.
And he gets them out and let some potty and
stuff a little bit, and all of a sudden they're leading. Uh.
We took Nelly and Reno up there and and put
down on a bear. There was seven seven seven trucks,
dogs hanging out everyone and and Joe Jenny led me

(35:38):
in there and we put those two dogs down. And
I said, why do you want these coon dogs to
start the bear? And let's just see what they'll do.
And I did and and he said later when he
was running, said, by the way, we'll never see this
where he always disappears. And later that day we killed
that bear. They run him out of the forest, run
him up the tree. He came down two or three times,
and he said, that's the first time we've ever seen
this bear. We've running but we never could see. And

(35:59):
I brought those but the once again. So you're you're
keeping dogs based upon merit when they're young? What are
you looking for? Because I gotta reel you in here,
Steve so because we were talking about how because you
guys are sending out all these dogs, and people say,
how do you guys end up with the good ones?
You're watching them when they're young? Yeah, what are you
looking for? What are you looking for in a pub?

(36:20):
Just the best thing in the living? Yeah? Everything? You know?
I mean, what your dog bringing those dead rabbits and
there's somebody's not shooting those rabbits for that dog that
dogs run me into a hole and getting them, digging
them out and bring them up there and kill them.
But okay, the Stella's litter Jinga Darrell uh Stella sender

(36:41):
uh Michigan Todds wonderful female might be one more anyway,
at four months and three days old. I have a
picture of them treat on squirrels in a bluizzard. Now
I have the picture, and they're they're all treat and
nur's about six inches of snow on the ground and
it's snowing hard, and they are locating a con in

(37:01):
the top of a cottonwood tree. So there's not a
dead couirl a squirrel, a squirrel, not a bear, not
a not a mountain lion, but a dang squirrel. Why
was a squirrel at that? So as a breeder, you're
you're watching there every day, Yeah, I see you're watching
on a given day. I handle my pups ten times,
twelve times. You know what I'm saying. I mean they

(37:23):
were they go with me, you know, they and and
um the best pup out of the Reno litter, out
of Banjo Cindy. He got killed when he's four and
a half months old. And his name was Banjo too.
I can't believe I named a pup after his daddy already.
Banjo was only fourteen months old when he died, and
this puff was four months a half months old. Dad
came in the driveway, brought it, brought a coon in

(37:43):
a cage. We put it out there. The pupps had
a scream and fit about it. Uh once again to
that whole litter, and they all turned out to be
fantastic dog. So when we got all done, and when
Dad took out there in the old Chevy pick up,
he threw that coon the back of that thing. And
he come back in about ten minutes, and I said,
what's the better? He said, look at this pup. He said,
this pup was tied onto my bumper. He said, I
drove halfway to town. He said, this pup won't quit,

(38:06):
and and and and when he took the pup out,
the pup run around behind the pick up again and
start baying on that tail gate that pick up. Now,
the other pups were bark a little bit, but this
pup went crazy. Well, that pup tried to take a
female away from a full grown male dog and was
killed right there, four and a half months old. But
he was he was in the Dad said, that's the
next very pass gunna right there. So I had already
picked that pup out of that litter to be my replacement, okay,

(38:28):
and then when he died, Reno stepped up. Okay. But
but once again, when you get to see it there,
it's it's unfair advantage for us to be able to
do this, but that's how we're able to. So you
don't you're not selling pups when they're six weeks old,
you know, I just can't. I can't stand to because
how you don't know you don't know what you got,
so you like to sell him at what or you're
not selling five five or six months? Attributed him at

(38:50):
five or six months, And that's good. That's a good
word for you after you've watched him. Oh yeah, because
I can tell you I can already tell you exactly
what's gonna what's gonna happen, you know, I can tell
I can tell you that that little ferns gonna start
trading and she's gonna start treating and all that sort
of stuff just run away. So yeah, okay, well, and
that's a that's a notable thing with uh for a
dog breeder to be able to do that, to be
able to watch the dogs that long and you learn

(39:11):
so much. You know, what I hear you saying, is
that as because we're you know, on this we're trying
to talk about breeding big game dogs, is that you've
got sixty years of history and you've you've noted different
characteristics about these dogs that and the best ones, the

(39:32):
best ones from each generation. There were certain traits like
like Buster, there were certain traits that you you want
more of those? You know, I want ten more like
that right there? You know, instead of saying well, I
guess I'll try to cross and see if I get
one good puff. That's the way you do. And and
once again, when you can't do it, then you should quit.
And and some people some people won't quit. What the
reputation that the Bluff Creek line has um is consistency.

(39:57):
And you know exactly exactly you get you get ups
even like me, uh several years ago, didn't We described
this on the last podcast. But I have two dogs
that I got directly from you, and uh and I
described my dog to a guy and he knew it
was a Buff Creek dog and he could have told

(40:19):
me the same thing, and he just said, most of
those dogs are gonna be like that, you know. And
uh so so producing that consistency is a significant thing
with anything. By the way, if you can be consistent
at whatever you do, if you're a basketball player and
you can shoot three poinners consistently, that's that's a big deal,
you know, instead of just saying, hey, I hit one

(40:39):
last game. You know, so, consistency is extremely important. But
once again, the only way to be consistent is to
is to breed your dogs so tightly that there's no
escape tunnels. There's no way of of of losing that
stuff unless and unless it's unless it's a frequent nature
accident or something. You know, we can't have this podcast
too without hearing you say what you're breeding for, Steve.

(41:01):
And and let me say that, I I believe that
you're breeding for a really balanced town, a natural balanced
town that's got a good nose, that's fast, that's gritty
enough to pressure a bear, but not so greaty to
get exert exactly, um, that has intelligence, intelligence and locating
well smaller framed dog. And then but you I want

(41:24):
to hear, I want to hear you say. You just
said it every bit of itself. And I'm only gonna
just say no. But you you have to have why
would you want a dog? Why would you want a
dog that that can't outstrike the other people's dogs and
can't out run the other people's dogs, and he's just
gonna quit and come out, But or you go ahead
and find them dead on the ground. I don't want
that either. And so you want that dog to live

(41:45):
tenures so you can have a lot of fun with
it and reproduce. Uh, you know you don't want a
coward dog. But but I want. I want. I want
something difference than a lot of true bear hunters do.
And some of them just want so much grit, and
they they're you know, they're happy about about the vet bills,
and I'm not. Okay, I can't be happy about vet
bills because I can't pay them, Okay, So and then

(42:06):
I just want. I just thought the point I was
gonna try to tell you about it going. The hardest
animal in the world to raise, to me, I mean,
I'm talking. A racehorse has to run a milk how
has produced bilk. A fat hog has a show pig
even has to just look good in the ring and

(42:26):
then someone butchers him. But a hound has who has
the nose to strike cold and the brains to run
a track, and the the ability to pick up a
loose and the the ability to locate, and the fact
that they'll stay treed for a long, long, long periods

(42:47):
of time, even under a rough tree, with rough with
other rough dogs. And then when the game comes down,
or if a dame the game does come down, the
grit to stop it and hold it for hours and
hours and hours, the endurance to be able to run
for hours and hours and hours and and the toughness
for deep water, cold temperatures, rough feet. I mean, the

(43:09):
list goes on. There's no other animal in the world
that has to be read to such a consistency of
high caliber as what a trailhound, a big game hound
is into me and and and so far no one
has contradicted that statement, by the way. I mean, you know,
a show dog has to look pretty in the ring,
you know, but that's all. He doesn't have to doesn't
have to bark. So there's more specific traits that have

(43:31):
to guess what that's your point that is, okay, And
even a voice, a voice loud enough that you can
hear him, and and and also a natural stream. You
gotta have all these things that if there's one I'm missing. Okay. Now,
once again, my dad did not invent that trait, and
I didn't invent that trade, and every wellams didn't, but
we knew where to go get him from the people
who did, Okay, And what we were lucky enough to

(43:53):
do is get that first breathing stock. And we we
have been able to hold onto dogs that do everything
I just told you all this time, and we didn't
inve any of it, but we know how to hang
onto do gut gut feeling and kind of stepping outside
the normal way that some people breed animals. You know. So,
but but never never never never stepped down, never stepped
backwards and think, well, I'm gonna try this because you

(44:15):
know this might work. I mean, try it. But if
it doesn't work, please don't rebreath that, don't you know,
just let it go. Yeah, let me. I'm gonna try
to summarize, Coulton. You can, you can help me here.
Maybe I'm trying. I'm gonna try to summarize what I've
heard you so is that you well, family line breeding
or in breeding is a good thing if if done right,

(44:39):
you you're never gonna produce traits out of a dog
that it doesn't already have in it. Um. I've heard
you say that you've got to you've got to breed.
You've gotta inside of your breeding program, you've got to
have access to the best dogs of the litters. And
you've been able to do that by watching them for
the first six months of their life, letting them run free,

(45:01):
seeing how they respond to all the game that are
running around your house. I mean, so you're you're not
You're not having to see him chase a bear to
know that he will chase a bear. Hold On, don't
stop me. Hold On. There's three and then um, the
fourth one is you can always amend a mistake in

(45:22):
breeding by just not breeding again with those dogs, But
you can never get back a dog that passes away
that you never bred. You said you'll never You'll never
regret you, You'll never you The only thing you regret
is the crosses that you didn't make exactly so. And
then long periods of time too. I mean, like this
is like you you've you you're seventy years old, and

(45:45):
you've been doing this for well, I mean you've been
around it your whole life, right, and so just you've
got to evaluate these things based over long, long periods
of time and experience. Those four things are kind of
big ones so much. You know, if you if you're
if your experienced seeing those dogs in the woods every day,
you kind of know what you're looking well. And you know,

(46:05):
maybe a fifth thing too, that I heard you say
that maybe needs a little bit of clarification is that
you are looking for physical traits. I mean, like you said,
like like a black a darker plot is what the
Bluff Creek dogs. Historically, if your dogs have been they
call them creakers anymore that you know Joe Hudder, Joe,

(46:25):
I'm sorry, Joe, Joe Walker, and he's dead. They said, well,
this is like a creaker here and you can tell.
And so for your you're not saying that the only
good plots are black. That's not what I'm saying. So
you're saying from your strain of dogs over since the
years of evaluation, the best dogs were black. So why
would you And you're saying, but dark, dark, brown, I'm sorry,

(46:47):
brown or black. You're right, So why would you breed
to dog that wasn't that and expect to get But
I mean, yeah, okay, but once again, if you have
a lighter brittle dog, uh, then breed to a real
dark brintle dog and then keep the darker pops. You know,
just brought the bat. When Colt went out there and
sorted to see that litter that day, he sorted too
light brintle males out and the three three female uh

(47:10):
I think there was yeah, three or four, there was
three females, and he sorted those pups out and only
he left was five black, four black brittle pups, okay,
And he looked through them and look through them, and
pretty soon he picked up this one. He looked at
me and I didn't I didn't bat my eyes, and
he laid it back down. He picked up the next
one over. He said, this one right here, and I
said that too. That's that's the he said, I'm gonna
call him buster. I said, that's fine, you just call

(47:31):
him whatever you want to call him. Uh, well, that's uh.
I think those five things and we could those that's
what I'm here. And you say, which is is well, super,
Start with the best you can find, Maintain the best
you can find. Never be fooled, never ever, ever be
fooled about a dog. If if if you're a dog,

(47:53):
you think he's the greatest thing in the world, and
you hunt with something that's way way better than you're
probably don't have the best dog in the world, you know,
so so you know yeah, And it's it's it's it's
it's simpler. It's simpler than it seems. But most people,
almost everybody, wants to change everything they get. They want

(48:13):
to dog people want to change the colors, change the
size chains the mouth, change this, and those old those
old people had perfected. Don't change anything, don't change anything
at all. Yeah. I heard you say that one time,
and that you said, don't try to change your dog. Yeah,
don't go get the dog. You can't. Yeah, you can't
change your line of dogs. You just you know, if
you get them like And once again, there's been some

(48:35):
major strains that have been crossed together that both of
them were really good lines. But very few times does
it improve over either one of the strains. And in
other words, I like a little different dogs. Somebody about
else might have dogs that do just like mine, but

(48:56):
maybe they're dogs would be really gritty, and maybe they're
spend a lot of time at the bed places, and
and I that's just a that's a day out of hunting.
And that's you know, you're that's that's that's just not good. Now.
The dude pup that I raised, very intelligent pup out
of Butch and Stella, and he's in he's in a
ventanry hospital in Idaho, right, and he got caught by
a bead bear. But we don't it's really steep up there.

(49:18):
I'm wondered he wouldn't in a canyon. I'll find out.
And he couldn't get away because he normally you know,
nips and nips and nips and bis and bass bass
for our star. But he hadn't been caught that bad,
but he got caught bad. So yeah, Colton thoughts on breeding.
Final thoughts here before we close down. When you get
when you get Steve heard talking about reading better. That's

(49:38):
many words. I think one thing that was left out
to it you had asked it before. When you're looking
at the litter of pups too, I think that you
you also look for extreme brain for a dog when
you have a literal pups and out there, you know,
you have some trying to you know, eat butterflies, and
you know, kind of smelling the other dogs, you know,
running around, but you kind of just have something that
just kind of sit back and and have that look

(49:59):
of out him, you know. And then when you you
have all have them all together and stuff, and you know,
there's just certain things that you look for, like that
that show, that show that showed showed the intelligence of
a Dogsbuster, when I looked at Buster's litter, Buster didn't
you didn't. He didn't see him doing anything goofy, but
he just looked straight at you just like he was.

(50:20):
You know, he was ready for hunting when you turn
him loose, when you when you turn him loose, and
we were getting ready to turn him into a bear tree.
You didn't. He wasn't sniffing dogs, he wasn't barking at
random stuff, he wasn't sitting. He was focused, extremely focused
on on on bear and that's what sets him apart.
So I think I think brains has an extreme, extremely

(50:41):
big impact on on when you're when you're picking out
the right dog out of a litter. So yeah, yeah,
that's good, really good. Well closing thoughts, Steve Well, thank
you for having us. I enjoyed talking and and I
once again young people or even old people, people that
that are in the need for something really special should

(51:04):
know that there's still places out there to get it.
And I'm not just talking about that bluff Greek you know,
protection candidate. I'm talking about there are there are still
people out there that are raising really good dogs. And
and don't just because you can get something for fifty
dollars don't mean you should go get it for figet dollars.
And to try to find if you really want something good,
expect you know, expect to go to go meet somebody
and then ask a lot of questions. But but you know,

(51:26):
there's still people out there produced really good dogs, and
everybody deserves a really good dog. If if if you
deserve a good dog, then then you know, if go
find it. And and uh, it's like like when you
got firm. Okay, you know you guys deserve your you
and your family. I thought you deserved a really good dog,
So I sent you a really good dog. And she
turned out to be that way. That's just the way

(51:47):
she turned out to me. That's what she was supposed
to do, you know. And then and then Todd Boswell
up there. He showed me some pictures on the flock
news side and there was a lot of off color
dogs and I made a little comment. I said, uh,
where's the brintle in this picture? And he was not
very happy with that, and he said, well, I'll be
honest with you, I can't find one that I like. Okay.

(52:08):
So I sat there out though. That's not right, So
I said, I called him, said, Todd, I got a pop.
I said, it's out of Nelly and Reno, and I'm
gonna send you this pup. Well, how much. I said,
I'm giving it to your kids. Well, I don't know,
I guess so, and I sent it up there and
he still calls me. He still says, Mr Herd, I

(52:28):
am so indebted to you. I am so indebted because
I my kids and me finally got to see what
everybody else was talking about. And he said, I can't
go into stories because I got a lot of friends.
I can't tell you what all I've seen. But he said,
it's incredible. So that's Stella's litter. Okay, God, I wish
I had them back mercy. Anyway, I don't wanna get tarried.
I want to get teared up here. So anyway, yeah, great, Well, yeah,

(52:51):
thanks again guys for it. Thank you, thank you for
driving all the way out here. And this has been
it has been super fun. And uh yeah, I just
want to reiterate too, I said at the beginning, I
said it again. I've seen a lot of people in
the hound world. They're afraid to just say what they
think because they're afraid it will come across as arrogant
or like they know it all. Man, it does no

(53:14):
good to to well, if you're trying to have a conversation,
for somebody to hold back, and you know, when you're
not afraid that they're not saying, and there's no I
can't lie to you, So there's no reason for me
to tell you something I don't believe. And the truth
is everything I told to you, I do believe. And
it has got me through so many generations. And I
hope for at least two truthtre more I've got, I've

(53:34):
got across, I've got a special cross coming, and I
you know, I just I hope it works. I think
it was. We're gonna use the last semen of the Butch,
the less strow the Butch seemen, and we've got a
female out of Stella. I don't have her, but we're
gonna get her back. And I think we're gonna have
another one the supercrosses well. And and here's the thing
that I want to say too, is that I could

(53:55):
have another. You know, there there are other there are
other guys that have had long standing strains and dogs
that have had success, tremendous success, and they did it
their own way, and then they might be setting here
and say something slightly different. They may hear this and say, Nope,
that didn't work for me. What he said, And so
people have the right to hear this information and evaluate it.

(54:17):
Take take what works for them. What you're saying, it's
worked for you. That's what it worked for me, worked
for you. And I'm just telling you I'm late. That's
how I laid it out. And I studied one dog
and one pedigree, and I'm still here from my cheane
seveno until now from from land there on the floor,
Brandon was you were born seventy Okay. He was just
a little cheeny baby when I did all this, and

(54:38):
uh and it's still after all these years from that
one old dog taught me that much. So keep your
keep your mind open and learn learned what you can it.
It worked for me, So it worked. We might name
this podcast it worked for me. I like that. I
like that. I like that. Yeah. Well, okay, as we
always say at the end of the podcast, keep the

(54:59):
wild places wild because that's where the bears live exactly.
And then if it's legal, run hounds. You can turn
your plots after him. Okay, good to you.