October 6, 2022 • 41 mins
Vanessa tells of her run ins with the Law.
Andy and Vanessa discuss the ways in which God has made known deep secrets about Himself and us in the Biblical account of the "LAW" and how the true purpose of the biblical Law might surprise us.
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Episode Transcript
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Vanessa Caruso (00:01):
Welcome to the bear with me podcast where we
aim to integrate belief andpractice in the Christian life
that you've never seen
Andy Withrow (00:20):
I have never spent a night in jail. Like, have you?
No. Oh. But you've gotten introuble with the law. Yes, I
have in. Can you tell me thatstory? Or stories?
Vanessa Caruso (00:32):
Couple tickets.
Okay. The ones I'm most ashamedof? Yes. Are two texting while
driving technically, but textingat red lights. In Victoria,
Andy Withrow (00:45):
you got ticketed for texting while driving in
Victoria. But you
Vanessa Caruso (00:49):
both times stopped at a red light or stop
at a red light completelystopped touching my phone.
Andy Withrow (00:57):
And how did how did they catch you?
Vanessa Caruso (00:59):
Okay, so the first one was like a sting
operation. Okay, at Blanchardand hillside. And they were
hiding behind the Boston Pizza.
And it was an undercover cop whocrossed the street at the
crosswalk. And I was the firstone in line
Andy Withrow (01:15):
guised as a pedestrian. Yes. common citizen,
Vanessa Caruso (01:18):
and I'm touching my phone and it's little holder,
texting, drop off went wellgymnastics camp. And he just
walked straight up to my windowand says you're not allowed to
Andy Withrow (01:28):
do that. Oh, okay.
And then did what do you pulledyou over? Yeah. Then I had to go
into the parking park over here.
Yeah,
Vanessa Caruso (01:36):
I gotta take it.
I still had my Philadelphiaplates on my car. So a little
bit was like you might have beenprofiled. Yeah, like, yeah,
Philadelphia and it was like,$300 Wow. 360 something. It was.
I felt really really bad.
Andy Withrow (01:54):
So this interesting. Okay, so the sting
operation is they're trying toget people who are stopped
texting is texting.
Vanessa Caruso (02:00):
Yeah. I didn't know it was illegal
Andy Withrow (02:05):
to text while you're stopped at us.
Vanessa Caruso (02:07):
Yeah. Something it is. And I see so many people
doing it now. Like, if you lookover, people are looking down.
Yeah. So they're smarter.
They're not doing it up on thatdashboard.
Andy Withrow (02:17):
You were like holding yours up like selfie
everyone to see. Okay, so Butyou said this happened more than
once
Vanessa Caruso (02:27):
did happen a second time. It's even worse. I
was holding my phone. I was atstopped at the red light
adjacent to the Victoria Policedepartment
Andy Withrow (02:38):
office. But you weren't going to the police
department? No, you just happento be in that area. Yeah,
Caledonian quadrotors. A higherconcentration fleet.
Vanessa Caruso (02:47):
There. There was one right next to me that I
hadn't noticed on hismotorcycle.
Andy Withrow (02:51):
He's looked over.
Yeah. Okay.
Vanessa Caruso (02:53):
So my alibi for that. Is that I was driving the
cruise. muskies fan. Yeah. Idon't know why must have picked
up children or something. So Iwas in a new car. So in my car,
I have my holder like and I itreminds me like don't touch
that. You got to take it oncefor touching that. Just keep it
up. But I didn't have the holderand so out of habit. I like
(03:16):
checked it or something. Yeah.
But it's because I wasn't in mymy usual car. So I forgot. He
didn't care. No. Yeah. Didn'tcare. And if I get a third one,
it's like really bad. So I don'tdo it anymore. Interesting.
Andy Withrow (03:33):
Well, that's great stories.
Vanessa Caruso (03:36):
Thanks, Andy. I think having recorded
Andy Withrow (03:39):
about getting in trouble the law so I'm glad that
you
Vanessa Caruso (03:41):
You're welcome.
Andy Withrow (03:43):
But I wanted to want to talk a bit about law
and, and maybe based on yourexperiences now this will skew
your answer to this question,but what do you what comes to
mind when you hear the word law?
Vanessa Caruso (03:58):
No, I'm Texas.
Yeah. Texting while driving. Inlaw makes me feel feels cold. It
feels like the image that comesto mind is like a big huge Bible
open in a courtroom. Okay, kindof thing. Law gavel Yeah, yeah,
(04:24):
that kind of
Andy Withrow (04:27):
thing called down in this probably has been
colored by your experiences withdefinitely here in Victoria.
Yeah. It is not taking intoaccount that you were stopped.
Vanessa Caruso (04:44):
Okay, and that it came from the states where
people like, take videos ofthemselves while driving. At
least in Philadelphia. They did.
Andy Withrow (04:54):
Right. K cold Bible courtroom. distant. What
else?
Vanessa Caruso (05:05):
It's such a short word. You know, but it's
so powerful. Law.
Andy Withrow (05:12):
Yeah. Law. What about it? And you've already
kind of brought this in with theBible. But what about when I say
God's law?
Vanessa Caruso (05:24):
They feel it feels a little bit like an
oxymoron to me, God's law,because God I associate with
goodness, love, grace. And thenlaw is like, feels like a hard
line. And so loves hard line,that it feels a little bit
awkward. God's law.
Andy Withrow (05:47):
Yeah. Yeah. You're probably not alone in that I
really, that's kind of whatsometimes I would anticipate
with with conversations aroundlaw in general, like the Old
Testament law and or the God'slaw, when we talk about that.
But that's what I want to talkabout today is the law,
especially as we look at itgiven in the Old Testament. So
(06:09):
going back to Exodus. I believethat it isn't an oxymoron.
Vanessa Caruso (06:17):
Really, I believe you've been so excited
about God's law, I
Andy Withrow (06:21):
know that the Old Testament law is an expression
of God's deep love and care tohis people. And that's what I
want to talk about. That'slovely. So maybe matching up law
with your image of God. So formen, I talked about this last
(06:42):
time, but we're talking about alot lately. But in Strength
Finders, yes. LA is one of yourstrengths. This is not one of my
strengths. Context. You said mytop five Yeah, but this last
time, and it is so important,because you get so much from
context, totally surroundings.
We talk about being groundedlast time. Yes. And, and that's
(07:02):
true, especially when we readthe Bible, because it is so
confounding sometimes. Yes. Soit feels complicated. You get
lost, like, why is God doingthis? Or God saying this? Why is
that person doing it? Is thatright? All these things you just
couldn't get lost? But if youback up, and we're looking at
(07:24):
okay, well, what's the settingwhat's actually happening around
what I'm reading? And you get somany clues to help you kind of
piece together. This maybeconfounding document was written
1000s of years ago, anddifferent culture and language
and different assumptions andall these things. Yeah. So when
we look at the law we're lookingat, just kind of recap the story
a little bit. This is Exodus.
(07:48):
It's the second book of theBible we're thinking about. A
lot of people think about the 10commandments. When we think
about the Old Testament lawwhere Moses or Charlton Heston
is on the top of the mountaincoming down with two stone
tablets. He's got the, the hairand the beard and the robes and
everything. And this picks upthe story in Exodus 20, where
(08:12):
they're at the mountain, okay,we're at Mount Sinai, it's got
two different names, but it'sthe mountain of God out in the
middle of the desert in themiddle of nowhere. And these
people are there and Moses comesdown with the law, but so much
has happened to get to them tothat point what so much, so we
don't have time. Okay, so ofGenesis one through Exodus 90,
(08:35):
okay. That's like 59 chapters.
Wow, okay, a lot. That is a lotof life. Basically, God has
chosen a family in Abraham wayback in Genesis 12, to reveal
himself to the world to thenation's pick, this one family
I'm going to be with you aregoing to be with all your
generations, so that the worldcan be blessed through you. It's
(08:58):
beautiful. Sounds nice. Yeah,positive. So by the end of
Genesis, this people, God'speople are a small group of
around 70 or so down in Egypt.
Interesting that getting inthere. It's a really great story
and go back and read it sometime. Exodus picks up a few 100
(09:19):
years later, they've been downthere for generations, and
whereas things were well withthem at the end of Genesis,
things are not well with themnow. Because of their
relationship to Egypt, in itsgovernment. And its politics.
They are now essentially slaves.
They're working seven days aweek things have changed on the
(09:41):
clock. hard labor. It's reallynot going well. Egyptians are
really, they look down on thisthis race of people. They They
not only use them for labor, butthey control their population.
Wow. So this is This is killingthe males of, of the women who
(10:01):
give birth a serious birth.
Yeah, that's why that's whyMoses story. That's why he has
to hide in the basket and likepush them down the river that
like they're desperate that thisthis boy can live this baby can
live off well that's that'stheir solution. Right so that's
his sister Marian was lookingfor remission he goes into the
(10:24):
reeds and then the Egyptianprincess Yeah, finds them and
raised the takes them intoPharaohs households. Yeah, Moses
survives in Pharaoh's householdanyway, Prince of Egypt go see
it or read the book. Anyways,you fast forward several years,
and Moses is now in exile.
(10:44):
Because he's murdered inEgyptian trying to stand up for
his own people. Right. But itdoesn't go well. He's took the
law into his own hands. Yeah.
He's out, tending sheep tendingthe flocks of his father and
Loggins up getting married. Seelots skipping? Okay. Very brief.
And he's out. And this is wherehe has that experience where
(11:06):
there's some there's this bush,that seems to be on fire. Right?
Not burning up. Yeah, beingconsumed. So it's like, that's
strange. There's not a lot todo. And we'll have nowhere
tending sheep. So it's like,I'll go to look. Right. So this
is where he has this encounterthis first encounter with with
God. And God says, basicallysays to him, I'm, I'm not far
(11:27):
off. I've heard the cries of mypeople. I know what's going on.
I've seen them. And I hear them.
Right? And so this is Exodusthree. And so he sends Moses
back. He wants them to be his,his, his mouthpiece is
(11:47):
ambassador to Pharaoh to go tellPharaoh. Let my people go.
Vanessa Caruso (11:51):
Oh, this is all before. Oh, yeah, yeah.
Andy Withrow (11:55):
Okay. All before then. This is like Exodus five
through seven is? Is Godconfronting Pharaoh confronting
his peoples oppressor, the onewho's the slave driver? In the
murder? Right? And then Exodusseven through 15 Is the
recounting of God's deliveringof his people from Pharaoh.
(12:18):
Pharaohs oppression. So that'sthe, the other 10 words against
Egypt. So yeah, 10 words here inExodus 20. The what we call the
commandments. You get the 10words or you say curses or works
against Pharaoh in the plagues?
No way. Yeah, there's 10 ofthem.
Vanessa Caruso (12:38):
Really legs.
Yeah. And then you get 10 wordslater words. Yes. This is
intentional. That is so cool. Inever heard that relationship
before. Yeah.
Andy Withrow (12:48):
And you get these 10 plugs in it culminates on
this 10th one. That's the deathblow literally. And Pharaoh
finally lets them go for awhile, and then they leave and
that's where you have theparting of the Red Sea, this
miraculous deliverance whenthey're trapped because Pharaoh
changes his mind and goes afterthem and then the sea collapses
in on the enemy. And God'speople Hebrews are safe on the
(13:12):
other side out in the middle ofnowhere out in the wilderness.
So he delivers them and thenthey're in the wilderness from
chapter 16 to 19 We alwaysforget this part. But how many
years is that? It's I think it'sjust a few weeks. Oh, okay.
Yeah, but there's nothing toeat. Oh, and there's nothing to
drink okay, because it's themiddle of nowhere Yeah, desert
that's and God provides forthem. Is that mana? i Yeah, I
(13:36):
think the man that comes inhere. I can't remember because
there's man there's quail. Yeah,I'd have to go back and look.
And then there's there's water.
Yeah, out of raw nowhere. Yep.
And then and then that's whenthey come to the mountain.
Vanessa Caruso (13:50):
Okay. That does feel different to know all that.
Okay, before the mountain.
Andy Withrow (13:57):
So and in in Exodus 19 God tells them I want
to be with you all of this allof this is so that we can have
relationship I am your God youare my people. And I want to go
with you and be in your midst.
This is this is pretty nuts.
(14:20):
This is not something that thatwe you get in other cultures in
the ancient Near East. Thismakes Israel stand out like a
God designed to be present andshowing up on this mountain and
revealing himself. So this thisis the setting of the 10
commandments. Okay. Okay. Thesetting is God already loves
(14:42):
them. He's heard them he caresabout them. And he's rescued
them. He's saved them out ofthis. This space,
Vanessa Caruso (14:50):
which probably felt impossible. Yeah. To be for
their lives to be different thanwhat it was adequately
Andy Withrow (14:56):
shifted. changed.
Yeah, there they'd beendelivered out of this impossible
horrible situation. They wouldnot have been able to do
themselves. Yeah. And, and nownow, the setting is
relationships love rescuerelationship. Okay. So now how
might thinking about this storythis background? changed the
(15:18):
tone of the 10 commandments orthe law? For you?
Vanessa Caruso (15:24):
It does Andy so well yeah, it totally changes
it. It doesn't feel like somearbitrary. Okay, now I'm gonna
like, I can't think of thephrase something about like
(15:47):
showing your right arm orsomething like strong arming. It
feels so much more like the nextchapter in something more like a
love story.
Andy Withrow (16:02):
Yeah, well, attention has to change the
purpose, right. So iffor one, it can't be these are
for our salvation, we have tocheck these boxes in order for
them to like us or love us orwant to do anything in our
lives. That cannot be true. He'salready done everything right in
(16:23):
terms of bringing them out ofthis awful space. So fast
forward to the Christian life.
And maybe growing up in thechurch or, or working out a
relationship with God. Andwhatever that is. It's the
easiest one is to think I needto be good, in order to be
(16:46):
loved. Not even just not justwith our relationships with God
with our that's, that's atendency for us for anything,
because I have to prove myself,I have to be likable. I have to
be a good person, I have to fillin the blank, I have to do this,
I have to be enough of somethingin order to be worthy in order
to be loved. But then God inthis story, and he's going to
(17:10):
the story as a pattern for thewhole New Testament is saying,
actually, when you were a mess,and probably considered
unlovable. And before you evenknew one commandment, to please
me, and to do what I want, Iloved you then and I rescued
(17:30):
you, then
Vanessa Caruso (17:31):
that's so cool.
It's like the counterpart tothat verse in the New Testament.
While we were still
Andy Withrow (17:38):
Paul in Romans while we were still dead, yeah,
in our offenses, in ourinability to check the boxes to
do anything that pleases God.
God demonstrated His love forus. That Christ died for us
while we were still centered heso this is the new Exodus we're
talking about that God does anew deliverance for not just
Israel, but for that inviteseverybody in. That's a bigger,
(18:03):
even a bigger deliverance thanthe political one in Egypt.
Because this has to do with ourwhole lives and our souls and
our are the deepest parts of whowe are. Is God delivering us but
anyway, we're getting ahead ofourselves, we got to get them to
the law. Okay.
Vanessa Caruso (18:25):
Okay, context matters,
Andy Withrow (18:27):
big size.
Everything, the law cannotwhatever the law is for it can't
be to, to, for us to to impress.
Go ahead. Yeah, to get God'sattention. Like, look, God, how
good I'm doing. Yeah. That'skind of a big deal. What is the
(18:48):
purpose? If it's not for that?
What's it for
Vanessa Caruso (18:50):
Hindi tell us?
Andy Withrow (18:53):
The Law, God is giving us a gift. Here's the
whole setting, like I want to bein relationship with you. This
is how to be in relationshipwith me and one another. That's,
that's the law. Now that soExodus 20, got the 10
commandments, those are the oneswe remember, mostly, maybe get
seven out of 10 of them frommemory or whatever. But then it
goes on. Like it's longer.
There's more. There's, there'smore lists after that. Okay,
(19:15):
this is how you live together,right? So all these all these
laws in that it's hard for us toread because they can they can
kind of be a little bitspecific. Yeah. And they can
feel non relevant. But we'll getto that back to that in a
second. Okay, but just let'sjust stay on this, that there's
(19:36):
this gift of here's how to be inrelationship with me. And one
another.
Vanessa Caruso (19:43):
That sounds beautiful, Brent. Yes, it sounds
a little bit more like a map.
Andy Withrow (19:48):
Yeah. Let's, let's live together. Here's how we're
going to do that.
Vanessa Caruso (19:53):
And I'll get really specific you know, when a
friend is not doing well or apartner or something like that.
And they are able to say reallyspecifically, you know, what
would help me so much is if youwould blank. And you're like,
Thank you. Thank you for tellingme you would blink at no blank
(20:16):
fill in the blank. Blank. Yeah,you know, they like fill in the
blank. Like, if you could pickup friends have COVID Right now
the whole family. And so I raninto another friend and she
said, Oh, yeah, I just textedhim like, you know, what can I
pick up and they said toiletpaper? So she dropped off toilet
paper, it's like really helpful.
When someone's like, Yeah, wecould really use toilet paper
and you're like, got it? Yeah,I'm gonna get that sort of
(20:38):
trying to guess yes. It's justlike, the possibilities are
overwhelming. When someone canbe really specific about this is
how I would, this would reallyhelp this would really make me
feel loved. Whatever. Yeah, hugegift.
Andy Withrow (20:54):
Israel definitely thought this way the Old
Testament is filled with, withthese ideas that the law is a
gift with thanksgiving for thelaw. It's very counterintuitive
for us. It's, it's like writinga love song to the law. Could
you imagine a love song to thelaw. This is Psalm 119, the
(21:15):
longest chapter in the Bible isa love song. To the law. Wow, it
doesn't stand out other than forlength. It's like this is all
over the Psalms, it's all overthe Old Testament is what a
gift. God has given his peoplein giving them the law. Wow. And
it's like they understood it.
What it was for it was to knowhow to be in relationship with a
(21:39):
God who desired to be present tothem. And that was unique in
Israel, from what I canunderstand looking at other this
surrounding cultures is the godswere mysterious. He didn't know
how to please them. They didn'tcommunicate what they wanted. So
you guessed and you did allsorts of things to try to get
(22:00):
their attention to try to pleasethem all sorts of sacrifices and
all this and that and the other.
And so for in there's other lawcodes that overlap with with the
10 commandments, but they're theways that they overlap are all
with the horizontal how werelate to one another, like
don't murder, the adulterystuff, right? How to Treat your
(22:21):
neighbor. So
Vanessa Caruso (22:21):
you're saying is your ancient Near East? That
kind of thing,
Andy Withrow (22:26):
that kind of thing that was common. You saw that
like the code of Hammurabi is afamous one nice similar kind of
stuff. Yeah. But this Hort, thisvertical one, what how to relate
to God, or this particular God?
You don't have that interest isdifferent. That stands out in
the 10. Yeah. And in the law ofIsrael.
Vanessa Caruso (22:47):
Wow, it's so so different than how the
connotations with the 10commandments are with the law.
Andy Withrow (22:56):
I think it's difficult for us, because our
relationship to law is very Idon't remember what the word is,
but it's very, we think of thelegal system and the court.
Yeah. And the codes, the lawcodes, and yes, you get a ticket
and this and this. Yeah. And lawin the ancient world function
very differently. These kinds ofwritings, they are more seen as
(23:17):
wisdom. Yeah, this is how tolive how to live love it like
that. So Darrell Johnson, titledhis sermon series on the 10
commandments as themanufacturer's specifications.
Oh, my God, you get the idea?
Yeah. This is the one whocreated all of creation in you
and me. And he's letting us inon how we work best in
relationship to him to oneanother into the creation. Yeah,
(23:40):
it's beautiful. And it's awisdom emphasis, rather than a
punitive justice emphasis. Ithink those the other side of
the Justice stuff is still itcomes into it. But it's much
more about here's how to makelife work out. If you want to
live with this God. And if youwant to live well with one
another. This is here's here'show to do it.
Vanessa Caruso (24:03):
It kind of sounds like God's rule of life.
I love a Rule of Life. Likeit's, it's a beautiful idea.
It's on my strengths finder.
It's such a beautiful way to meto demonstrate a love for life
and for God. And for the lifeGod has given me Yeah, is a Rule
of Life. It kind of sounds alittle bit like God's rule of
(24:26):
life. Yeah.
Andy Withrow (24:30):
So if we if the Israelites didn't see this as
like a huge burden, like oh mygosh, now we have all these
rules to do they saw it verydifferently. Yeah. And I think
like what a treasure yeah,there's an invitation for us in
this as well. To say, Oh, how dowe how do we approach this as an
(24:51):
invitation to relationship andto the the series that we're
doing at the table were for the10 pounds we're trying to live a
life of rescue Trying to keepremembering the setting out of
which these come. It's like Godrescues. Moses had already
violated one of the commandmentsby murdering someone. Right. And
(25:13):
he chose Moses. Yeah, to be thedeliverer of the people and to
bring the law down. And so itkind of frees us up from this
burden of oh, I have to havethis checklist to do into like,
no, no, that's an invitation towise living into good living.
Vanessa Caruso (25:28):
Yeah, it does. I
Andy Withrow (25:29):
think it does have meaning. Consequences. Want to
like water it down. Yeah, that'simportant. But it's just a shift
in terms of how we receive and,and live with the law. As a as a
good thing. And maybe, maybe lawis such a hard word. Torah
literally means instruction.
Vanessa Caruso (25:46):
Like here's even that is different instruction to
do it. It's helpful. Yeah.
Andy Withrow (25:53):
So we get bogged down like that. The 10 are, kind
of make some sense to us.
Because they're, they're fairly,they're fairly big picture
stuff. And then it gets it getsinto this a bit into the nitty
gritty. Like, that can feelarbitrary or strange or weird
to, like, for example, one ofthem is that you have to have a
(26:17):
parapet on the roof. Okay, whichis like a subtle kind of
enclosure, like a fence. Yeah.
And the reason for that isbecause the type of houses that
the Israelites would have, youdid a lot of living up on the
roof. Really? Yeah. Like you usethe whole part of the house.
(26:37):
It's like your patio wasn't likeit was flat, and for safety and
for wellbeing, and hospitalityfor your neighbor who might be
over No way. And their kids, youbetter have a parapet on your
roof. That's the law. Okay, it'dbe responsible.
Vanessa Caruso (26:54):
Okay. But that's such a good metaphor for the law
in a way, like the the rooffence care about? Yeah. In order
to increase hospitality safety,well being generosity, because
you might be like, well, we'dhave them over the neighbors,
but we don't have our fence. Sothat's just too stressful. So
(27:16):
we're not going to
Andy Withrow (27:18):
it doesn't apply to us because we don't have we
don't live on our roofs. Wedon't have life on our roofs.
Yeah. But we should probablyhave a fence around our patio or
deck.
Vanessa Caruso (27:28):
I mean, talk to well about that. It like
increases or Yeah, our yard butour deck
Andy Withrow (27:32):
like just you know that that makes sense. Oh, love
it. Others.
Vanessa Caruso (27:38):
I love it and love stuff like that. Yeah.
Andy Withrow (27:40):
So so this is where it gets tricky. Because we
look at the Old Testament law,is it still binding? Or is it
not? It's like, well, yes. Andno, it's like, this was for
Israel a few 1000 years ago. Thebig 10 I think are pointing to
much bigger things like thathasn't those have not largely
changed is still cast in thelanguage of a certain society
(28:04):
that needs to be adjusted alittle bit. But they're but
they're much bigger things thatget particularized in the way
that the Israelites lived. It isjust different from the way that
we lived. But you still want tocare about your you still. And
this one Jesus sums it up. LoveGod with everything you got.
Love your neighbor as yourself.
Yeah. put a fence around yourdeck.
Vanessa Caruso (28:25):
I love it.
Right. I want to read all those.
Particularly some of
Andy Withrow (28:30):
them are really like there's so they they're
maybe just lost, like, what doessomething going on? That was
important for that. But a lot ofthem you can kind of do a little
bit thinking like okay for them.
Vanessa Caruso (28:42):
But doesn't that give you inspiration about our
lives? Like the the idea thatGod would care? So much? Yeah,
that there is actually a way tolive in 2022 on Vancouver
Island. Well, yeah. Lovingly inour context, which feels so
(29:07):
mixed and difficult and weird.
And hard. Yeah. That's amazing.
So inspirational.
Andy Withrow (29:17):
Yeah, so So Jesus Christ. So in part of the thing
when Jesus comes on the scene,the laws important to him, I've
come to fulfill the law, not toabolish it. I've kind of like
the law is good, likeinstructions are good. They've
not changed. God hasn't changed.
Some of the particulars getchanged. And he's going to do
(29:39):
away with some of the do awaywith because he fulfills them
like some of the food laws andsome of those particulars that
were specific and important fora time because they related to
the temple. And in Jesus view,the new temple is here. So we're
going to shift some of thesethings. God isn't chain inched,
but how we're relating to God ischanging because of Jesus with
(30:02):
how we're connecting how thisrelationship piece gets shifted
a little bit. But you look atthese 10. And they they're still
very helpful for us to figureout how do we do that? So we
look at the first four kind ofpertaining to our relationship
with God. And then the last six,a bit more of the horizontal,
(30:26):
like how do we connect well withone another. And Jesus coming in
fulfilling that and showing ushow to do it well in reminding
us like, Don't get bogged downin the details. Remember the
heart that's where he got a lotof that. sparring with the
Pharisees is the Pharisees weregreat because they cared about
the law. And their view was thereason we're in trouble is
(30:50):
because we've not cared aboutthe law. And Jesus. I think one
argument one good argument whyJesus fight so much to the
Pharisees is because they'reactually the closest, he doesn't
go out to the scenes. Yeah,we're living out in the middle
of nowhere, because of theirtheology. He sometimes interacts
with the Sadducees. But theyhave such a different theology,
(31:11):
you don't conflict as much, thePharisees and Jesus conflict so
much, because they both care somuch about the law. Interesting.
And Jesus says you're missing,you're missing the heart the
bigger point of this, which isyou gets expressed in the Sermon
on the Mount. Go the extra mile,give him if he asked for, to
Nick give him two. Right. Sohe's trying to point the law is
(31:35):
about generosity and love, notabout these, not about freedom,
right and freedom. Like, let itlet the Torah, the instruction,
capture your heart. That's whatGod cares about not just, again,
checking the boxes and gettinggetting misguided on what the
laws for
Vanessa Caruso (31:53):
Wow, interesting.
Andy Withrow (31:56):
Love God with everything you've got. Love your
neighbor as yourself, that sumsup the law fulfill the law, and
the prophets.
Vanessa Caruso (32:07):
Wow. Even that makes has is like juicy are kind
of in context to the 10commandments in the law that was
given. And how you said thelongest chapter in the Bible is
a love letter to the law to theinstructions given by God that
God would communicate himself insuch specific ways for the
(32:34):
purpose of doing life together,
Andy Withrow (32:38):
they said it was more valuable to them than gold.
Like that knowledge, thatinsight. And this has to do with
Revelation because the theimplication the deep implication
of this is that this is not someof this is not intuitive. Like
people were dying in the ancientworld, trying to figure out what
the gods wanted. And it was notclear like you get some clues
(33:02):
through creation, because it'sGod's handiwork. So you get you
get a bit of sense about theartists. But the this is the the
kids are doing youth alpha. Andthe the great example he had is
if someone makes you a cake, andit gives it to you can, you know
that maybe there was like, it'sa nice cake. It's really good,
they're good. But you don't knowthat much about who the cooking
(33:25):
or the chef is? Or the baker isright? Without them actually,
you would know who it was. It'sthe same thing with create like
God is, this is anotherimportant dimension to all this
is that God is not like us in somany ways. He's not like his
creator. He's different. He'sseparate. And so it is truly
(33:46):
like this encounter at Sinai,you go back and read it. It's
it's pretty nuts. It's like,it's like a Alien Encounter.
Yeah, it's like some other beingis making contact. Yeah, and
intense. And I think we tend inmy experience in Christian
circles, we can tend to think ofGod like ourselves totally make
(34:07):
him in our own image, which isthe second commandment don't do
that. Because like I am unlikeanything in heaven and earth,
and the seas beneath you.
There's there's nothing increation or your imagination
that will capture who I am.
Vanessa Caruso (34:23):
Okay, Andy, how you keep How do you do number
two, then did you say that wasnumber two? Yeah. Are we gonna
get to that Manish
Andy Withrow (34:29):
no image we'll get I think we'll do that. I think
we'll do that one. Because it'sa really important like, how
Vanessa Caruso (34:34):
do you live keeping in mind that God is
nothing like, well, not maybenothing like but way different,
bigger than anything. You can wecan imagine. Like, how do you
live with that?
Andy Withrow (34:50):
Yeah. That's that's a good question. I mean,
have you ever tried to imagine abeing that has no beginning? No.
It's hard to do. Yeah. There's alimit to our imagination and
this is the is the danger in thewarning of, of boxing God in and
is your idiot You're right. It'sa human propensity. That's why
(35:11):
idolatry was such a problem.
That's why everyone made idols,like physical idols in the
ancient world is like theyneeded something tangible,
something to see that and westill do. Yeah, when we haven't
changed. I mean, it feels likewe have because we don't use
that land, a lot of us in NorthAmerica don't have that kind of
relationship with physicalidols. But you could make the
(35:33):
case that we still do this, andJamie Smith will go into that
with a cultural liturgies stuffand other other things that are
tangible visual cues of thatshape our values and what we
value most, which is thedefinition of worship, what are
we ascribing the most worth to?
But anyway, let's save that forlet's save that to kind of dive
(35:55):
in. Cuz I think there's a lotthere to unpack. Yeah. But in
the meantime, I think theimportant thing to remember is,
we would not have gotten here onour own. who this God is what
this God is like the nature andcharacter of God, it requires a
revealing a self disclosure,that there is God, there is a
(36:18):
connection for us to God becausehe's made us and there's this,
this image, but there's alsothis, this otherness that we
have to be let in on. And sothat's the important of the
important tense of thisrevealing that we get the words
of God that we get. That's sobeautiful, why they wrote these
loves, like, thank you so muchfor this insight. Yeah, we get
(36:42):
we get inside info on who youare. Yeah. It's pretty special.
Vanessa Caruso (36:47):
It's so beautiful. God's self
disclosure. I love that throughthese instructions. Through
these like wisdom pieces.
Andy Withrow (36:57):
Yeah. So and so I think it's time to wrap up. I
just want to hear from you. One.
Your one takeaway? Oh, gosh,morning that if if God told you,
I'm gonna let you remember justone thing from this morning for
the rest of your life and neverforget it. What would it be?
Vanessa Caruso (37:16):
Wow, Andy fresher is on okay. While I
think about it, how about fromyou? Like you've you've been
working on this series? So Iknow you're so excited about so
much of it. But how, what doesit change for you? The context
and this reorientation? aroundlike what the 10 commandments
(37:39):
actually are?
Andy Withrow (37:40):
Yeah, I think the one thing is that that big piece
of this is God out of loverevealing Himself to us. That's
such a shift to think what whatdoes the law mean to you, God
out of love for us revealingHimself to us, that's the law.
That's the instruction like,Hey, this is who I am. And this
is who you are. And that thatsetting is one of rescue,
(38:04):
instead of getting it the otherway around the cart before the
horse like, Oh, we got to dothis and this and this, and then
God will, will do what we wantor love us or whatever. It's not
that kind of relationship.
That's pretty.
Vanessa Caruso (38:16):
It's beautiful.
Okay, I think my main, likewhat's evoked for me, if I had
to narrow it down from all thisis like, the feeling of being
given some, some treasure, likecherishing something. Like I
think of being a younger girl.
(38:38):
And just having a book that Iabsolutely love. Like Shel
Silverstein's Where the SidewalkEnds, or loves Nancy Drew, and
Anna Green Gables, and walkingaround with like this treasure
of words. And thinking of thelaw like that, and thinking of
(39:03):
the Bible like that, rather thanthis thing that hangs over my
head. I think that's thealternate image is kind of
walking with, with some thingshanging over my head that I
can't quite live up to and itfeeling like I'm in I'm in a
catch 22 Yeah, like I don't knowhow to sew. So one image is like
kind of darker was somethinghanging over my head. The other
(39:25):
one is like, the the world opensup. And I I like, hold on to
this beautiful thing. I wasgiven like this beautiful thing
I found that's that's what I'mtaking away.
Andy Withrow (39:42):
Yeah. Yeah, like a new world of possibilities, and
adventure and excitement. That'sa good that's a good image.
Vanessa Caruso (39:51):
It makes me want to rewrite one of the Psalms not
like the whole thing, but whatwould it mean? Yeah. Yeah, just
give it a little quick revision.
But instead of law to take, youknow, 10 of the verses, I'll do
it. And I'll see what it's likeand substitute something else in
there. And see if it helps meget in touch with. Yeah, that
(40:13):
posture of gratitude. Intimacy,like, how honored? Yeah, they
must have felt to get this.
Yeah, it's good. Yeah. Well,Andy, thanks. This is this is
like the setting for the 10commandments. And then you want
(40:37):
to talk about some of them rightlater.
Andy Withrow (40:39):
We'll see. I think the image one for sure. Because
there's so much it's reallyfascinating. What's one that
maybe disconnects with usbecause like, well, we don't do
that. Yeah, I just skip overthat one. But we do like it just
it's fun for us. So that'd befun. And I think I think we
could do a good one on that. Sowe'll see. Well, we'll do one or
two of them and see whathappens.
Vanessa Caruso (40:59):
Well, art is the Sermon on the Mount, the
counterpart to the 10commandments.
Andy Withrow (41:04):
I think in some ways it is the Beatitudes nine
of them. Pretend that it's like
Vanessa Caruso (41:13):
interest interesting.
Andy Withrow (41:14):
Was the blessing.
Vanessa Caruso (41:18):
Okay, you just changed the battle. Sandy
Andy Withrow (41:26):
was back in a couple of weeks. I don't know.
If he knows.
Vanessa Caruso (41:30):
No, age, don't remember. The next time
Welcome to the bear with me podcast where we
aim to integrate belief andpractice in the Christian life
that you've never seen
Andy Withrow (00:20):
I have never spent a night in jail. Like, have you?
No. Oh. But you've gotten introuble with the law. Yes, I
have in. Can you tell me thatstory? Or stories?
Vanessa Caruso (00:32):
Couple tickets.
Okay. The ones I'm most ashamedof? Yes. Are two texting while
driving technically, but textingat red lights. In Victoria,
Andy Withrow (00:45):
you got ticketed for texting while driving in
Victoria. But you
Vanessa Caruso (00:49):
both times stopped at a red light or stop
at a red light completelystopped touching my phone.
Andy Withrow (00:57):
And how did how did they catch you?
Vanessa Caruso (00:59):
Okay, so the first one was like a sting
operation. Okay, at Blanchardand hillside. And they were
hiding behind the Boston Pizza.
And it was an undercover cop whocrossed the street at the
crosswalk. And I was the firstone in line
Andy Withrow (01:15):
guised as a pedestrian. Yes. common citizen,
Vanessa Caruso (01:18):
and I'm touching my phone and it's little holder,
texting, drop off went wellgymnastics camp. And he just
walked straight up to my windowand says you're not allowed to
Andy Withrow (01:28):
do that. Oh, okay.
And then did what do you pulledyou over? Yeah. Then I had to go
into the parking park over here.
Yeah,
Vanessa Caruso (01:36):
I gotta take it.
I still had my Philadelphiaplates on my car. So a little
bit was like you might have beenprofiled. Yeah, like, yeah,
Philadelphia and it was like,$300 Wow. 360 something. It was.
I felt really really bad.
Andy Withrow (01:54):
So this interesting. Okay, so the sting
operation is they're trying toget people who are stopped
texting is texting.
Vanessa Caruso (02:00):
Yeah. I didn't know it was illegal
Andy Withrow (02:05):
to text while you're stopped at us.
Vanessa Caruso (02:07):
Yeah. Something it is. And I see so many people
doing it now. Like, if you lookover, people are looking down.
Yeah. So they're smarter.
They're not doing it up on thatdashboard.
Andy Withrow (02:17):
You were like holding yours up like selfie
everyone to see. Okay, so Butyou said this happened more than
once
Vanessa Caruso (02:27):
did happen a second time. It's even worse. I
was holding my phone. I was atstopped at the red light
adjacent to the Victoria Policedepartment
Andy Withrow (02:38):
office. But you weren't going to the police
department? No, you just happento be in that area. Yeah,
Caledonian quadrotors. A higherconcentration fleet.
Vanessa Caruso (02:47):
There. There was one right next to me that I
hadn't noticed on hismotorcycle.
Andy Withrow (02:51):
He's looked over.
Yeah. Okay.
Vanessa Caruso (02:53):
So my alibi for that. Is that I was driving the
cruise. muskies fan. Yeah. Idon't know why must have picked
up children or something. So Iwas in a new car. So in my car,
I have my holder like and I itreminds me like don't touch
that. You got to take it oncefor touching that. Just keep it
up. But I didn't have the holderand so out of habit. I like
(03:16):
checked it or something. Yeah.
But it's because I wasn't in mymy usual car. So I forgot. He
didn't care. No. Yeah. Didn'tcare. And if I get a third one,
it's like really bad. So I don'tdo it anymore. Interesting.
Andy Withrow (03:33):
Well, that's great stories.
Vanessa Caruso (03:36):
Thanks, Andy. I think having recorded
Andy Withrow (03:39):
about getting in trouble the law so I'm glad that
you
Vanessa Caruso (03:41):
You're welcome.
Andy Withrow (03:43):
But I wanted to want to talk a bit about law
and, and maybe based on yourexperiences now this will skew
your answer to this question,but what do you what comes to
mind when you hear the word law?
Vanessa Caruso (03:58):
No, I'm Texas.
Yeah. Texting while driving. Inlaw makes me feel feels cold. It
feels like the image that comesto mind is like a big huge Bible
open in a courtroom. Okay, kindof thing. Law gavel Yeah, yeah,
(04:24):
that kind of
Andy Withrow (04:27):
thing called down in this probably has been
colored by your experiences withdefinitely here in Victoria.
Yeah. It is not taking intoaccount that you were stopped.
Vanessa Caruso (04:44):
Okay, and that it came from the states where
people like, take videos ofthemselves while driving. At
least in Philadelphia. They did.
Andy Withrow (04:54):
Right. K cold Bible courtroom. distant. What
else?
Vanessa Caruso (05:05):
It's such a short word. You know, but it's
so powerful. Law.
Andy Withrow (05:12):
Yeah. Law. What about it? And you've already
kind of brought this in with theBible. But what about when I say
God's law?
Vanessa Caruso (05:24):
They feel it feels a little bit like an
oxymoron to me, God's law,because God I associate with
goodness, love, grace. And thenlaw is like, feels like a hard
line. And so loves hard line,that it feels a little bit
awkward. God's law.
Andy Withrow (05:47):
Yeah. Yeah. You're probably not alone in that I
really, that's kind of whatsometimes I would anticipate
with with conversations aroundlaw in general, like the Old
Testament law and or the God'slaw, when we talk about that.
But that's what I want to talkabout today is the law,
especially as we look at itgiven in the Old Testament. So
(06:09):
going back to Exodus. I believethat it isn't an oxymoron.
Vanessa Caruso (06:17):
Really, I believe you've been so excited
about God's law, I
Andy Withrow (06:21):
know that the Old Testament law is an expression
of God's deep love and care tohis people. And that's what I
want to talk about. That'slovely. So maybe matching up law
with your image of God. So formen, I talked about this last
(06:42):
time, but we're talking about alot lately. But in Strength
Finders, yes. LA is one of yourstrengths. This is not one of my
strengths. Context. You said mytop five Yeah, but this last
time, and it is so important,because you get so much from
context, totally surroundings.
We talk about being groundedlast time. Yes. And, and that's
(07:02):
true, especially when we readthe Bible, because it is so
confounding sometimes. Yes. Soit feels complicated. You get
lost, like, why is God doingthis? Or God saying this? Why is
that person doing it? Is thatright? All these things you just
couldn't get lost? But if youback up, and we're looking at
(07:24):
okay, well, what's the settingwhat's actually happening around
what I'm reading? And you get somany clues to help you kind of
piece together. This maybeconfounding document was written
1000s of years ago, anddifferent culture and language
and different assumptions andall these things. Yeah. So when
we look at the law we're lookingat, just kind of recap the story
a little bit. This is Exodus.
(07:48):
It's the second book of theBible we're thinking about. A
lot of people think about the 10commandments. When we think
about the Old Testament lawwhere Moses or Charlton Heston
is on the top of the mountaincoming down with two stone
tablets. He's got the, the hairand the beard and the robes and
everything. And this picks upthe story in Exodus 20, where
(08:12):
they're at the mountain, okay,we're at Mount Sinai, it's got
two different names, but it'sthe mountain of God out in the
middle of the desert in themiddle of nowhere. And these
people are there and Moses comesdown with the law, but so much
has happened to get to them tothat point what so much, so we
don't have time. Okay, so ofGenesis one through Exodus 90,
(08:35):
okay. That's like 59 chapters.
Wow, okay, a lot. That is a lotof life. Basically, God has
chosen a family in Abraham wayback in Genesis 12, to reveal
himself to the world to thenation's pick, this one family
I'm going to be with you aregoing to be with all your
generations, so that the worldcan be blessed through you. It's
(08:58):
beautiful. Sounds nice. Yeah,positive. So by the end of
Genesis, this people, God'speople are a small group of
around 70 or so down in Egypt.
Interesting that getting inthere. It's a really great story
and go back and read it sometime. Exodus picks up a few 100
(09:19):
years later, they've been downthere for generations, and
whereas things were well withthem at the end of Genesis,
things are not well with themnow. Because of their
relationship to Egypt, in itsgovernment. And its politics.
They are now essentially slaves.
They're working seven days aweek things have changed on the
(09:41):
clock. hard labor. It's reallynot going well. Egyptians are
really, they look down on thisthis race of people. They They
not only use them for labor, butthey control their population.
Wow. So this is This is killingthe males of, of the women who
(10:01):
give birth a serious birth.
Yeah, that's why that's whyMoses story. That's why he has
to hide in the basket and likepush them down the river that
like they're desperate that thisthis boy can live this baby can
live off well that's that'stheir solution. Right so that's
his sister Marian was lookingfor remission he goes into the
(10:24):
reeds and then the Egyptianprincess Yeah, finds them and
raised the takes them intoPharaohs households. Yeah, Moses
survives in Pharaoh's householdanyway, Prince of Egypt go see
it or read the book. Anyways,you fast forward several years,
and Moses is now in exile.
(10:44):
Because he's murdered inEgyptian trying to stand up for
his own people. Right. But itdoesn't go well. He's took the
law into his own hands. Yeah.
He's out, tending sheep tendingthe flocks of his father and
Loggins up getting married. Seelots skipping? Okay. Very brief.
And he's out. And this is wherehe has that experience where
(11:06):
there's some there's this bush,that seems to be on fire. Right?
Not burning up. Yeah, beingconsumed. So it's like, that's
strange. There's not a lot todo. And we'll have nowhere
tending sheep. So it's like,I'll go to look. Right. So this
is where he has this encounterthis first encounter with with
God. And God says, basicallysays to him, I'm, I'm not far
(11:27):
off. I've heard the cries of mypeople. I know what's going on.
I've seen them. And I hear them.
Right? And so this is Exodusthree. And so he sends Moses
back. He wants them to be his,his, his mouthpiece is
(11:47):
ambassador to Pharaoh to go tellPharaoh. Let my people go.
Vanessa Caruso (11:51):
Oh, this is all before. Oh, yeah, yeah.
Andy Withrow (11:55):
Okay. All before then. This is like Exodus five
through seven is? Is Godconfronting Pharaoh confronting
his peoples oppressor, the onewho's the slave driver? In the
murder? Right? And then Exodusseven through 15 Is the
recounting of God's deliveringof his people from Pharaoh.
(12:18):
Pharaohs oppression. So that'sthe, the other 10 words against
Egypt. So yeah, 10 words here inExodus 20. The what we call the
commandments. You get the 10words or you say curses or works
against Pharaoh in the plagues?
No way. Yeah, there's 10 ofthem.
Vanessa Caruso (12:38):
Really legs.
Yeah. And then you get 10 wordslater words. Yes. This is
intentional. That is so cool. Inever heard that relationship
before. Yeah.
Andy Withrow (12:48):
And you get these 10 plugs in it culminates on
this 10th one. That's the deathblow literally. And Pharaoh
finally lets them go for awhile, and then they leave and
that's where you have theparting of the Red Sea, this
miraculous deliverance whenthey're trapped because Pharaoh
changes his mind and goes afterthem and then the sea collapses
in on the enemy. And God'speople Hebrews are safe on the
(13:12):
other side out in the middle ofnowhere out in the wilderness.
So he delivers them and thenthey're in the wilderness from
chapter 16 to 19 We alwaysforget this part. But how many
years is that? It's I think it'sjust a few weeks. Oh, okay.
Yeah, but there's nothing toeat. Oh, and there's nothing to
drink okay, because it's themiddle of nowhere Yeah, desert
that's and God provides forthem. Is that mana? i Yeah, I
(13:36):
think the man that comes inhere. I can't remember because
there's man there's quail. Yeah,I'd have to go back and look.
And then there's there's water.
Yeah, out of raw nowhere. Yep.
And then and then that's whenthey come to the mountain.
Vanessa Caruso (13:50):
Okay. That does feel different to know all that.
Okay, before the mountain.
Andy Withrow (13:57):
So and in in Exodus 19 God tells them I want
to be with you all of this allof this is so that we can have
relationship I am your God youare my people. And I want to go
with you and be in your midst.
This is this is pretty nuts.
(14:20):
This is not something that thatwe you get in other cultures in
the ancient Near East. Thismakes Israel stand out like a
God designed to be present andshowing up on this mountain and
revealing himself. So this thisis the setting of the 10
commandments. Okay. Okay. Thesetting is God already loves
(14:42):
them. He's heard them he caresabout them. And he's rescued
them. He's saved them out ofthis. This space,
Vanessa Caruso (14:50):
which probably felt impossible. Yeah. To be for
their lives to be different thanwhat it was adequately
Andy Withrow (14:56):
shifted. changed.
Yeah, there they'd beendelivered out of this impossible
horrible situation. They wouldnot have been able to do
themselves. Yeah. And, and nownow, the setting is
relationships love rescuerelationship. Okay. So now how
might thinking about this storythis background? changed the
(15:18):
tone of the 10 commandments orthe law? For you?
Vanessa Caruso (15:24):
It does Andy so well yeah, it totally changes
it. It doesn't feel like somearbitrary. Okay, now I'm gonna
like, I can't think of thephrase something about like
(15:47):
showing your right arm orsomething like strong arming. It
feels so much more like the nextchapter in something more like a
love story.
Andy Withrow (16:02):
Yeah, well, attention has to change the
purpose, right. So iffor one, it can't be these are
for our salvation, we have tocheck these boxes in order for
them to like us or love us orwant to do anything in our
lives. That cannot be true. He'salready done everything right in
(16:23):
terms of bringing them out ofthis awful space. So fast
forward to the Christian life.
And maybe growing up in thechurch or, or working out a
relationship with God. Andwhatever that is. It's the
easiest one is to think I needto be good, in order to be
(16:46):
loved. Not even just not justwith our relationships with God
with our that's, that's atendency for us for anything,
because I have to prove myself,I have to be likable. I have to
be a good person, I have to fillin the blank, I have to do this,
I have to be enough of somethingin order to be worthy in order
to be loved. But then God inthis story, and he's going to
(17:10):
the story as a pattern for thewhole New Testament is saying,
actually, when you were a mess,and probably considered
unlovable. And before you evenknew one commandment, to please
me, and to do what I want, Iloved you then and I rescued
(17:30):
you, then
Vanessa Caruso (17:31):
that's so cool.
It's like the counterpart tothat verse in the New Testament.
While we were still
Andy Withrow (17:38):
Paul in Romans while we were still dead, yeah,
in our offenses, in ourinability to check the boxes to
do anything that pleases God.
God demonstrated His love forus. That Christ died for us
while we were still centered heso this is the new Exodus we're
talking about that God does anew deliverance for not just
Israel, but for that inviteseverybody in. That's a bigger,
(18:03):
even a bigger deliverance thanthe political one in Egypt.
Because this has to do with ourwhole lives and our souls and
our are the deepest parts of whowe are. Is God delivering us but
anyway, we're getting ahead ofourselves, we got to get them to
the law. Okay.
Vanessa Caruso (18:25):
Okay, context matters,
Andy Withrow (18:27):
big size.
Everything, the law cannotwhatever the law is for it can't
be to, to, for us to to impress.
Go ahead. Yeah, to get God'sattention. Like, look, God, how
good I'm doing. Yeah. That'skind of a big deal. What is the
(18:48):
purpose? If it's not for that?
What's it for
Vanessa Caruso (18:50):
Hindi tell us?
Andy Withrow (18:53):
The Law, God is giving us a gift. Here's the
whole setting, like I want to bein relationship with you. This
is how to be in relationshipwith me and one another. That's,
that's the law. Now that soExodus 20, got the 10
commandments, those are the oneswe remember, mostly, maybe get
seven out of 10 of them frommemory or whatever. But then it
goes on. Like it's longer.
There's more. There's, there'smore lists after that. Okay,
(19:15):
this is how you live together,right? So all these all these
laws in that it's hard for us toread because they can they can
kind of be a little bitspecific. Yeah. And they can
feel non relevant. But we'll getto that back to that in a
second. Okay, but just let'sjust stay on this, that there's
(19:36):
this gift of here's how to be inrelationship with me. And one
another.
Vanessa Caruso (19:43):
That sounds beautiful, Brent. Yes, it sounds
a little bit more like a map.
Andy Withrow (19:48):
Yeah. Let's, let's live together. Here's how we're
going to do that.
Vanessa Caruso (19:53):
And I'll get really specific you know, when a
friend is not doing well or apartner or something like that.
And they are able to say reallyspecifically, you know, what
would help me so much is if youwould blank. And you're like,
Thank you. Thank you for tellingme you would blink at no blank
(20:16):
fill in the blank. Blank. Yeah,you know, they like fill in the
blank. Like, if you could pickup friends have COVID Right now
the whole family. And so I raninto another friend and she
said, Oh, yeah, I just textedhim like, you know, what can I
pick up and they said toiletpaper? So she dropped off toilet
paper, it's like really helpful.
When someone's like, Yeah, wecould really use toilet paper
and you're like, got it? Yeah,I'm gonna get that sort of
(20:38):
trying to guess yes. It's justlike, the possibilities are
overwhelming. When someone canbe really specific about this is
how I would, this would reallyhelp this would really make me
feel loved. Whatever. Yeah, hugegift.
Andy Withrow (20:54):
Israel definitely thought this way the Old
Testament is filled with, withthese ideas that the law is a
gift with thanksgiving for thelaw. It's very counterintuitive
for us. It's, it's like writinga love song to the law. Could
you imagine a love song to thelaw. This is Psalm 119, the
(21:15):
longest chapter in the Bible isa love song. To the law. Wow, it
doesn't stand out other than forlength. It's like this is all
over the Psalms, it's all overthe Old Testament is what a
gift. God has given his peoplein giving them the law. Wow. And
it's like they understood it.
What it was for it was to knowhow to be in relationship with a
(21:39):
God who desired to be present tothem. And that was unique in
Israel, from what I canunderstand looking at other this
surrounding cultures is the godswere mysterious. He didn't know
how to please them. They didn'tcommunicate what they wanted. So
you guessed and you did allsorts of things to try to get
(22:00):
their attention to try to pleasethem all sorts of sacrifices and
all this and that and the other.
And so for in there's other lawcodes that overlap with with the
10 commandments, but they're theways that they overlap are all
with the horizontal how werelate to one another, like
don't murder, the adulterystuff, right? How to Treat your
(22:21):
neighbor. So
Vanessa Caruso (22:21):
you're saying is your ancient Near East? That
kind of thing,
Andy Withrow (22:26):
that kind of thing that was common. You saw that
like the code of Hammurabi is afamous one nice similar kind of
stuff. Yeah. But this Hort, thisvertical one, what how to relate
to God, or this particular God?
You don't have that interest isdifferent. That stands out in
the 10. Yeah. And in the law ofIsrael.
Vanessa Caruso (22:47):
Wow, it's so so different than how the
connotations with the 10commandments are with the law.
Andy Withrow (22:56):
I think it's difficult for us, because our
relationship to law is very Idon't remember what the word is,
but it's very, we think of thelegal system and the court.
Yeah. And the codes, the lawcodes, and yes, you get a ticket
and this and this. Yeah. And lawin the ancient world function
very differently. These kinds ofwritings, they are more seen as
(23:17):
wisdom. Yeah, this is how tolive how to live love it like
that. So Darrell Johnson, titledhis sermon series on the 10
commandments as themanufacturer's specifications.
Oh, my God, you get the idea?
Yeah. This is the one whocreated all of creation in you
and me. And he's letting us inon how we work best in
relationship to him to oneanother into the creation. Yeah,
(23:40):
it's beautiful. And it's awisdom emphasis, rather than a
punitive justice emphasis. Ithink those the other side of
the Justice stuff is still itcomes into it. But it's much
more about here's how to makelife work out. If you want to
live with this God. And if youwant to live well with one
another. This is here's here'show to do it.
Vanessa Caruso (24:03):
It kind of sounds like God's rule of life.
I love a Rule of Life. Likeit's, it's a beautiful idea.
It's on my strengths finder.
It's such a beautiful way to meto demonstrate a love for life
and for God. And for the lifeGod has given me Yeah, is a Rule
of Life. It kind of sounds alittle bit like God's rule of
(24:26):
life. Yeah.
Andy Withrow (24:30):
So if we if the Israelites didn't see this as
like a huge burden, like oh mygosh, now we have all these
rules to do they saw it verydifferently. Yeah. And I think
like what a treasure yeah,there's an invitation for us in
this as well. To say, Oh, how dowe how do we approach this as an
(24:51):
invitation to relationship andto the the series that we're
doing at the table were for the10 pounds we're trying to live a
life of rescue Trying to keepremembering the setting out of
which these come. It's like Godrescues. Moses had already
violated one of the commandmentsby murdering someone. Right. And
(25:13):
he chose Moses. Yeah, to be thedeliverer of the people and to
bring the law down. And so itkind of frees us up from this
burden of oh, I have to havethis checklist to do into like,
no, no, that's an invitation towise living into good living.
Vanessa Caruso (25:28):
Yeah, it does. I
Andy Withrow (25:29):
think it does have meaning. Consequences. Want to
like water it down. Yeah, that'simportant. But it's just a shift
in terms of how we receive and,and live with the law. As a as a
good thing. And maybe, maybe lawis such a hard word. Torah
literally means instruction.
Vanessa Caruso (25:46):
Like here's even that is different instruction to
do it. It's helpful. Yeah.
Andy Withrow (25:53):
So we get bogged down like that. The 10 are, kind
of make some sense to us.
Because they're, they're fairly,they're fairly big picture
stuff. And then it gets it getsinto this a bit into the nitty
gritty. Like, that can feelarbitrary or strange or weird
to, like, for example, one ofthem is that you have to have a
(26:17):
parapet on the roof. Okay, whichis like a subtle kind of
enclosure, like a fence. Yeah.
And the reason for that isbecause the type of houses that
the Israelites would have, youdid a lot of living up on the
roof. Really? Yeah. Like you usethe whole part of the house.
(26:37):
It's like your patio wasn't likeit was flat, and for safety and
for wellbeing, and hospitalityfor your neighbor who might be
over No way. And their kids, youbetter have a parapet on your
roof. That's the law. Okay, it'dbe responsible.
Vanessa Caruso (26:54):
Okay. But that's such a good metaphor for the law
in a way, like the the rooffence care about? Yeah. In order
to increase hospitality safety,well being generosity, because
you might be like, well, we'dhave them over the neighbors,
but we don't have our fence. Sothat's just too stressful. So
(27:16):
we're not going to
Andy Withrow (27:18):
it doesn't apply to us because we don't have we
don't live on our roofs. Wedon't have life on our roofs.
Yeah. But we should probablyhave a fence around our patio or
deck.
Vanessa Caruso (27:28):
I mean, talk to well about that. It like
increases or Yeah, our yard butour deck
Andy Withrow (27:32):
like just you know that that makes sense. Oh, love
it. Others.
Vanessa Caruso (27:38):
I love it and love stuff like that. Yeah.
Andy Withrow (27:40):
So so this is where it gets tricky. Because we
look at the Old Testament law,is it still binding? Or is it
not? It's like, well, yes. Andno, it's like, this was for
Israel a few 1000 years ago. Thebig 10 I think are pointing to
much bigger things like thathasn't those have not largely
changed is still cast in thelanguage of a certain society
(28:04):
that needs to be adjusted alittle bit. But they're but
they're much bigger things thatget particularized in the way
that the Israelites lived. It isjust different from the way that
we lived. But you still want tocare about your you still. And
this one Jesus sums it up. LoveGod with everything you got.
Love your neighbor as yourself.
Yeah. put a fence around yourdeck.
Vanessa Caruso (28:25):
I love it.
Right. I want to read all those.
Particularly some of
Andy Withrow (28:30):
them are really like there's so they they're
maybe just lost, like, what doessomething going on? That was
important for that. But a lot ofthem you can kind of do a little
bit thinking like okay for them.
Vanessa Caruso (28:42):
But doesn't that give you inspiration about our
lives? Like the the idea thatGod would care? So much? Yeah,
that there is actually a way tolive in 2022 on Vancouver
Island. Well, yeah. Lovingly inour context, which feels so
(29:07):
mixed and difficult and weird.
And hard. Yeah. That's amazing.
So inspirational.
Andy Withrow (29:17):
Yeah, so So Jesus Christ. So in part of the thing
when Jesus comes on the scene,the laws important to him, I've
come to fulfill the law, not toabolish it. I've kind of like
the law is good, likeinstructions are good. They've
not changed. God hasn't changed.
Some of the particulars getchanged. And he's going to do
(29:39):
away with some of the do awaywith because he fulfills them
like some of the food laws andsome of those particulars that
were specific and important fora time because they related to
the temple. And in Jesus view,the new temple is here. So we're
going to shift some of thesethings. God isn't chain inched,
but how we're relating to God ischanging because of Jesus with
(30:02):
how we're connecting how thisrelationship piece gets shifted
a little bit. But you look atthese 10. And they they're still
very helpful for us to figureout how do we do that? So we
look at the first four kind ofpertaining to our relationship
with God. And then the last six,a bit more of the horizontal,
(30:26):
like how do we connect well withone another. And Jesus coming in
fulfilling that and showing ushow to do it well in reminding
us like, Don't get bogged downin the details. Remember the
heart that's where he got a lotof that. sparring with the
Pharisees is the Pharisees weregreat because they cared about
the law. And their view was thereason we're in trouble is
(30:50):
because we've not cared aboutthe law. And Jesus. I think one
argument one good argument whyJesus fight so much to the
Pharisees is because they'reactually the closest, he doesn't
go out to the scenes. Yeah,we're living out in the middle
of nowhere, because of theirtheology. He sometimes interacts
with the Sadducees. But theyhave such a different theology,
(31:11):
you don't conflict as much, thePharisees and Jesus conflict so
much, because they both care somuch about the law. Interesting.
And Jesus says you're missing,you're missing the heart the
bigger point of this, which isyou gets expressed in the Sermon
on the Mount. Go the extra mile,give him if he asked for, to
Nick give him two. Right. Sohe's trying to point the law is
(31:35):
about generosity and love, notabout these, not about freedom,
right and freedom. Like, let itlet the Torah, the instruction,
capture your heart. That's whatGod cares about not just, again,
checking the boxes and gettinggetting misguided on what the
laws for
Vanessa Caruso (31:53):
Wow, interesting.
Andy Withrow (31:56):
Love God with everything you've got. Love your
neighbor as yourself, that sumsup the law fulfill the law, and
the prophets.
Vanessa Caruso (32:07):
Wow. Even that makes has is like juicy are kind
of in context to the 10commandments in the law that was
given. And how you said thelongest chapter in the Bible is
a love letter to the law to theinstructions given by God that
God would communicate himself insuch specific ways for the
(32:34):
purpose of doing life together,
Andy Withrow (32:38):
they said it was more valuable to them than gold.
Like that knowledge, thatinsight. And this has to do with
Revelation because the theimplication the deep implication
of this is that this is not someof this is not intuitive. Like
people were dying in the ancientworld, trying to figure out what
the gods wanted. And it was notclear like you get some clues
(33:02):
through creation, because it'sGod's handiwork. So you get you
get a bit of sense about theartists. But the this is the the
kids are doing youth alpha. Andthe the great example he had is
if someone makes you a cake, andit gives it to you can, you know
that maybe there was like, it'sa nice cake. It's really good,
they're good. But you don't knowthat much about who the cooking
(33:25):
or the chef is? Or the baker isright? Without them actually,
you would know who it was. It'sthe same thing with create like
God is, this is anotherimportant dimension to all this
is that God is not like us in somany ways. He's not like his
creator. He's different. He'sseparate. And so it is truly
(33:46):
like this encounter at Sinai,you go back and read it. It's
it's pretty nuts. It's like,it's like a Alien Encounter.
Yeah, it's like some other beingis making contact. Yeah, and
intense. And I think we tend inmy experience in Christian
circles, we can tend to think ofGod like ourselves totally make
(34:07):
him in our own image, which isthe second commandment don't do
that. Because like I am unlikeanything in heaven and earth,
and the seas beneath you.
There's there's nothing increation or your imagination
that will capture who I am.
Vanessa Caruso (34:23):
Okay, Andy, how you keep How do you do number
two, then did you say that wasnumber two? Yeah. Are we gonna
get to that Manish
Andy Withrow (34:29):
no image we'll get I think we'll do that. I think
we'll do that one. Because it'sa really important like, how
Vanessa Caruso (34:34):
do you live keeping in mind that God is
nothing like, well, not maybenothing like but way different,
bigger than anything. You can wecan imagine. Like, how do you
live with that?
Andy Withrow (34:50):
Yeah. That's that's a good question. I mean,
have you ever tried to imagine abeing that has no beginning? No.
It's hard to do. Yeah. There's alimit to our imagination and
this is the is the danger in thewarning of, of boxing God in and
is your idiot You're right. It'sa human propensity. That's why
(35:11):
idolatry was such a problem.
That's why everyone made idols,like physical idols in the
ancient world is like theyneeded something tangible,
something to see that and westill do. Yeah, when we haven't
changed. I mean, it feels likewe have because we don't use
that land, a lot of us in NorthAmerica don't have that kind of
relationship with physicalidols. But you could make the
(35:33):
case that we still do this, andJamie Smith will go into that
with a cultural liturgies stuffand other other things that are
tangible visual cues of thatshape our values and what we
value most, which is thedefinition of worship, what are
we ascribing the most worth to?
But anyway, let's save that forlet's save that to kind of dive
(35:55):
in. Cuz I think there's a lotthere to unpack. Yeah. But in
the meantime, I think theimportant thing to remember is,
we would not have gotten here onour own. who this God is what
this God is like the nature andcharacter of God, it requires a
revealing a self disclosure,that there is God, there is a
(36:18):
connection for us to God becausehe's made us and there's this,
this image, but there's alsothis, this otherness that we
have to be let in on. And sothat's the important of the
important tense of thisrevealing that we get the words
of God that we get. That's sobeautiful, why they wrote these
loves, like, thank you so muchfor this insight. Yeah, we get
(36:42):
we get inside info on who youare. Yeah. It's pretty special.
Vanessa Caruso (36:47):
It's so beautiful. God's self
disclosure. I love that throughthese instructions. Through
these like wisdom pieces.
Andy Withrow (36:57):
Yeah. So and so I think it's time to wrap up. I
just want to hear from you. One.
Your one takeaway? Oh, gosh,morning that if if God told you,
I'm gonna let you remember justone thing from this morning for
the rest of your life and neverforget it. What would it be?
Vanessa Caruso (37:16):
Wow, Andy fresher is on okay. While I
think about it, how about fromyou? Like you've you've been
working on this series? So Iknow you're so excited about so
much of it. But how, what doesit change for you? The context
and this reorientation? aroundlike what the 10 commandments
(37:39):
actually are?
Andy Withrow (37:40):
Yeah, I think the one thing is that that big piece
of this is God out of loverevealing Himself to us. That's
such a shift to think what whatdoes the law mean to you, God
out of love for us revealingHimself to us, that's the law.
That's the instruction like,Hey, this is who I am. And this
is who you are. And that thatsetting is one of rescue,
(38:04):
instead of getting it the otherway around the cart before the
horse like, Oh, we got to dothis and this and this, and then
God will, will do what we wantor love us or whatever. It's not
that kind of relationship.
That's pretty.
Vanessa Caruso (38:16):
It's beautiful.
Okay, I think my main, likewhat's evoked for me, if I had
to narrow it down from all thisis like, the feeling of being
given some, some treasure, likecherishing something. Like I
think of being a younger girl.
(38:38):
And just having a book that Iabsolutely love. Like Shel
Silverstein's Where the SidewalkEnds, or loves Nancy Drew, and
Anna Green Gables, and walkingaround with like this treasure
of words. And thinking of thelaw like that, and thinking of
(39:03):
the Bible like that, rather thanthis thing that hangs over my
head. I think that's thealternate image is kind of
walking with, with some thingshanging over my head that I
can't quite live up to and itfeeling like I'm in I'm in a
catch 22 Yeah, like I don't knowhow to sew. So one image is like
kind of darker was somethinghanging over my head. The other
(39:25):
one is like, the the world opensup. And I I like, hold on to
this beautiful thing. I wasgiven like this beautiful thing
I found that's that's what I'mtaking away.
Andy Withrow (39:42):
Yeah. Yeah, like a new world of possibilities, and
adventure and excitement. That'sa good that's a good image.
Vanessa Caruso (39:51):
It makes me want to rewrite one of the Psalms not
like the whole thing, but whatwould it mean? Yeah. Yeah, just
give it a little quick revision.
But instead of law to take, youknow, 10 of the verses, I'll do
it. And I'll see what it's likeand substitute something else in
there. And see if it helps meget in touch with. Yeah, that
(40:13):
posture of gratitude. Intimacy,like, how honored? Yeah, they
must have felt to get this.
Yeah, it's good. Yeah. Well,Andy, thanks. This is this is
like the setting for the 10commandments. And then you want
(40:37):
to talk about some of them rightlater.
Andy Withrow (40:39):
We'll see. I think the image one for sure. Because
there's so much it's reallyfascinating. What's one that
maybe disconnects with usbecause like, well, we don't do
that. Yeah, I just skip overthat one. But we do like it just
it's fun for us. So that'd befun. And I think I think we
could do a good one on that. Sowe'll see. Well, we'll do one or
two of them and see whathappens.
Vanessa Caruso (40:59):
Well, art is the Sermon on the Mount, the
counterpart to the 10commandments.
Andy Withrow (41:04):
I think in some ways it is the Beatitudes nine
of them. Pretend that it's like
Vanessa Caruso (41:13):
interest interesting.
Andy Withrow (41:14):
Was the blessing.
Vanessa Caruso (41:18):
Okay, you just changed the battle. Sandy
Andy Withrow (41:26):
was back in a couple of weeks. I don't know.
If he knows.
Vanessa Caruso (41:30):
No, age, don't remember. The next time
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