December 23, 2021 • 52 mins
**CONTENT WARNING** - This episode deals with themes of pregnancy
At the beginning of her 3rd trimester, Elizabeth is surprised by a visit from her relative Mary, perhaps traveling 100 miles on foot to stay with her. But its Elizabeth who has special insight and knowledge of particular details regarding Mary’s hidden situation. Listen in with us as we eavesdrop on a moment central to the unfolding of God’s universal plan for all of creation.
Why did Mary “make haste”?
How do we enter into the “Wonder” of Advent?
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Andy Withrow (00:02):
Welcome to the bear with me podcast on table
radio, where we aim to integratebelief and practice
Vanessa Caruso (00:09):
in the Christian. And Ron, yeah, great.
We are nice to be back. So we'regoing to talk about Mary and
Elizabeth today. And Luke. Yes.
So I just thought it would behelpful to some, perhaps, to say
(00:34):
the obvious, which is that inAdvent, there are a lot of
images around pregnancy, andbabies. So we are both aware of
friends in our lives who havesome hurts in this area, either
(00:54):
longing to have a child, or alonging to be able to carry a
pregnancy full term, or to evenget pregnant. So just wanted to
say at the outset of this, thatsome of those themes will come
up. And if that feels too tenderof an area, you are welcome to
skip this episode, although wewill keep it in mind as we share
(01:20):
our reflections.
Andy Withrow (01:24):
So yeah, let's start out with the story. Yeah.
Do you want to read?
Vanessa Caruso (01:28):
Sure, I'll read it. Great. You know, there's so
many stories in the Bible thatwe know more than others. And I
always have this little feelingbefore getting to one of those
stories. Maybe I don't know ifyou have this, but you're
sitting in church, and thepastor says, like, we're gonna
talk about the sower and theseed, or Mary and Martha, and
(01:48):
you're like, oh, been there?
Andy Withrow (01:50):
Well, yeah, you have one or two reaction, like,
Oh, it's my favorite. I lovethat we're here. Yeah.
Vanessa Caruso (01:56):
That one again.
So um, I just like to rememberthat scriptures life. And
there's new things all the timefor us, you know, just because
we know all these, some of usknow all these Advent stories
really well, like they're justso much part of our narrative,
that there might be somethingfresh in here for us. Are you
ready? I'm ready. This one isabout Mary and Elizabeth. And I
(02:20):
guess since I'm reading it outloud. People who are listening
can kind of listen for whatstands out to them. That's
always fun to just see. What isit that registers with me? And
for what reason? So this is Lukeone starting at 39. Mary set out
in those days and went to thehill country with haste to a
(02:44):
Judy in town. There she enteredthe house of Zechariah and
greeted Elizabeth. Now, WhenElizabeth heard Mary's greeting,
the baby leaped in her womb, andElizabeth was filled with the
Holy Spirit. Elizabeth exclaimedwith a loud cry. Bless it, are
you among women, and blessed isthe fruit of your womb? From
(03:07):
where does this visit come tome? That the mother of my
sovereign comes to me? Look, assoon as I heard the sound of
your greeting in my ear, thebaby in my womb leaped for joy.
Now bless it is she who believedthat there would be a
fulfillment of those thingsspoken to her by the Holy One?
(03:36):
Is that the same passage here?
Andy Withrow (03:37):
Yeah, but then mine keeps going, oh, what else
does it then Mary said, My soulmagnifies the Lord. Oh, and my
spirit rejoices and God mysavior, for he has looked on the
humble estate of his servant.
For behold, from now on, allgenerations will call me
blessed. For he who is mightyhas done great things for me,
and holy is his name. And hismercy is for those who fear him
(03:59):
from generation to generation.
He has shown strength with hisarm. He has scattered the proud
of the thoughts of their hearts.
He has brought down the mightyfrom their thrones and exalted
those of humble estate. He hasfilled the hungry with good
things, and the rich he has sentaway empty. He has helped us
serve in Israel in remembranceof his mercy, as he spoke to our
fathers to Abraham, to hisoffspring forever. And Mary
(04:21):
remained with her with Elizabethfor about three months and
returned to her home. Statethree months yeah. Very song.
Right. We're both we're bothpreaching this. Yes. An
adventure. Two to four weeks. Itlooks like I have to preach
(04:45):
twice as much as you do.
Vanessa Caruso (04:48):
Yeah, if you do the Magnificat too. That's big.
Andy Withrow (04:53):
Yeah, it is. It's a big song. So yeah, let's jump
in here. Let's just I mean, wedon't have we both neither of us
really have an outline at thispoint. We're just kind of
looking at kind of reflecting onthings that that kind of struck
us with the story. So if it isonce you start with one of
yours, and then we'll kind ofgo, we'll trade. We'll trade
nuggets, great. Nuggets.
Vanessa Caruso (05:17):
Well, this is this is really little one, but
just something I hadn't noticedbefore. Just that this is
there's a travel situationhappening here. Yeah. Marry it.
I looked it up and it'ssomething like 70 miles from
where she was to get good.
That's a good hike. Really, likereally good.
Andy Withrow (05:37):
That's 70 miles.
Yeah,
Vanessa Caruso (05:39):
that's what it said to the hill country, right?
Andy Withrow (05:43):
Yeah, I was reading something probably
somewhere south of Jerusalem islikely was a Hebron.
Vanessa Caruso (05:47):
Remember? That sounds familiar, doesn't it?
Yeah. Yeah. So that and thehaste, there's that she went
there with haste. I just feltcomforted. Because the Advent
slash Christmas season in NorthAmerica tends to have for at
(06:11):
least middle class people tendsto have a lot of travel. And I
mean, seriously, and
Andy Withrow (06:21):
it's time to go to grandma's Make haste to get your
coat. Exactly. Go to thebathroom before we leave.
Vanessa Caruso (06:27):
Yeah. Hurry up.
Yeah, all that stuff. And inthe, you know, some of the the
worlds I occupy now, you know,spiritual formation and the
contemplative tradition andspiritual direction. There's,
there's a lot around thespacious life and the cultivated
life, flow life. And I love allthese things and feel like
(06:49):
they're needed for our moderncontext. But
Andy Withrow (06:54):
you're wondering if there's a time to make haste?
Vanessa Caruso (06:56):
Well, I just love that it's a reality. Right?
That's what I mean. Like, it's,it's not necessarily a liability
or a doesn't disqualify us.
Yeah.
Andy Withrow (07:09):
But it makes me think of, why is Mary making
haste? What's her hurry in this?
In this setting?
Vanessa Caruso (07:15):
Good question. I
Andy Withrow (07:16):
hadn't thought about is it? Is it excitement
about what's happened about whatthe previous episode was just
been told to her the news? Yeah.
In the previous episode, shelearned that the angel appears
to her and you will have get thelanguage right here.
Vanessa Caruso (07:35):
You will have
Andy Withrow (07:38):
you found favor with God, behold, you will
conceive in your womb bear a soncalls named Jesus, he'll be
great, called the Son of theMost High Lord God will give him
the throne of his father David,he will reign over the house of
Jacob forever and his kingdomwill there will be no end. The
Holy Spirit will come upon youin the power of the most time
overshadow you, therefore, thechild to be born will be called
(07:59):
holy, the Son of God. So shelearns that's kind of a big
thing. And then she also learnsnext that her relative,
Elizabeth, in her old age hasalso conceived a son. Yeah. And
she's in the sixth month.
Vanessa Caruso (08:16):
Oh, it says that. Yeah. Well, that's
probably why
Andy Withrow (08:21):
she said it says why she said three. Yeah, that's
three. Do
Vanessa Caruso (08:25):
you think she was there for John the Baptist?
His
Andy Withrow (08:26):
birth? Well? Yes,
Vanessa Caruso (08:30):
you think so?
Yeah. How do you know? I don't?
Oh,
Andy Withrow (08:33):
you thought so?
Oh, yeah. That was three nine. Imean, it would be it would be
too bad to stay like nine monthsand then be like, he's coming
any day. I'm just gonna go
Vanessa Caruso (08:45):
70 mile hike.
That's why she stayed. It kindof massive time. I was kind of
thinking perhaps had somethingto do with her. Her timing like,
you know, the scandalous natureof her being pregnant and just
maybe she maybe it was aroundthe time when she would start to
(09:06):
really show Yeah. And she wasable to cover you know, hide it
for a bit at this point. I don'tknow. Yeah, I don't know. But
there's haste
Andy Withrow (09:16):
but if it's in the it just I mean, this is all
speculative. Yeah, but it's isfascinating. Because this she's
in the six months she says threeis a nice fit but that'd be the
first three months presumably ofMary's pregnancy where she
probably isn't showing us muchto kind of comes back at the
time that you're pregnant. Yeah.
Weird, which is interesting, butbut Could be. Could be
(09:40):
anticipation could beexcitement. astonishment, or
what's been said and announcedexcitement for her relative
Elizabeth who in her old age,conceived and sharing seek the
two women sharing a secret.
Yeah, and that sounds like areally Amazing. Positive Yeah.
(10:05):
Yeah, it does this whole sceneis about rejoicing and wonder.
Vanessa Caruso (10:10):
Yeah. So don't you like that haste is in here.
You know that popular book thatruthless elimination of hurry?
Yeah. It's basically theruthless elimination of haste.
Yeah. But here there is. Here isa positive Hey, yeah. It's like
an urgency. And it's motivatedby something.
Andy Withrow (10:32):
Yeah, it's like, it's like when you're in the
living room reading a book andyour kids are playing quietly.
And all of a sudden when onegoes, and they just think of
something, they run back totheir room and they go grab
something they want to show youor play with or something like a
great example. Like, yeah, doesexuberance. I don't know. It
(10:53):
doesn't we don't. It's notexplained. But it's just like,
you wonder, because just thewhole scene is dripping with
sort of wonder and excitementand blessing.
Vanessa Caruso (11:03):
And there's, there's a theme in the story of
spontaneity to me. Haste hasthat has that feel like you
said, like, that's, that feelslike the expression. Yeah.
Getting things together andgetting out on time. But also,
the leaping for joy mentioned acouple times, yeah, like a belly
(11:23):
of a baby leaping in the wombfor joy. And Elizabeth's
spontaneous, like affirmationand blessing, which precedes
Yeah, this beautiful poem fromMary. Yeah, so that was that's
just like one of my generalobservations from the story.
(11:44):
Yeah. And wondering what itmeans for us for adventure is
the spontaneous nature of whathappens when we are living life
with God and sharing it with oneanother. It just feels like the
script is kind of exciting andisn't written. Yet, you know,
like, we're, it's being writtenas we live in. Yeah. So that,
(12:08):
that felt exciting to be tothink about having adventures
because we do tend to hang outwith friends and fellow church
people and relatives that weenjoy, or, or don't so much. But
there is a lot of relatingduring the season. Yeah, for
(12:29):
many of us. And so it just mademe wonder what would it be like
to have that kind of wonderposture, about the spontaneity
what can come? Yeah, when we'rejust paying attention and in the
present moment, and kind ofopen, open to the spirit really?
Andy Withrow (12:50):
Yeah, I was talking to a friend a couple
weeks ago about this passage.
And he had said, he said, that'swhat he felt like he missed is
the that will the one and then Ididn't even kind of pick up on
this theme of wonder he hepicked up on it and said, the
wonder of it. And I wish I couldhave like, long for that kind of
thing. That kind of experience,not just of Advent, though.
(13:15):
Definitely that but just ingeneral. But also definitely
Advent like a lot of us, I thinkhave at some point growing up,
kind of associate that seasonwith wonder and anticipation.
Yeah, it's whether it's giftsunder the tree or, or family
visiting, like just the childwaiting out the window for hours
(13:36):
when they know that extendedfamily is on their way and
wanting to know, when did theyleave? Do they are there any
updates? Did they call in? Yeah,you know, are they supposed to
be here in the next hour? Orit's gonna be three hours? And
we're baking cookies and we'regetting, you know, all that kind
of stuff?
Vanessa Caruso (13:53):
Yeah, it's kind of an enchanted season.
Andy Withrow (13:57):
I think we missed that. Yeah, a lot of us might
miss that. Wish we had it again.
Vanessa Caruso (14:01):
How do we get it back? If we don't have it?
Andy Withrow (14:06):
I don't know.
We're not here to point thatout. We're just here to point
out the desire for great. I wishwe had one day I wonder I don't
know. Maybe that'll come up. Ithink someone out there will
have an idea right into theshow. Yeah, the show.
Vanessa Caruso (14:26):
An echo the show show. Okay. Do you have a
nugget. So I guess I know that
Andy Withrow (14:32):
was a good one. I don't want to move on from
wonder. Haste and wonder Makehaste. That's good. My, the
first observation I had was justhow the Spirit's role in all of
this. It says that Elizabeth wasfilled with the Holy Spirit. And
(14:56):
she exclaimed with a loud cry,which Yeah, Interesting or
weird? Yeah. Associate feelingwith the Holy Spirit with a loud
cry. Yeah. Which is thisblessing? Plus are you among
women and blessed to the fruitof your womb? So that was
interesting. And the baby leapsin the womb for joy. For behold,
(15:24):
when the sound of your greetingcame to me is that even leaped
for joy? Is what Elizabeth says.
Which is, which is funny?
Vanessa Caruso (15:34):
Yeah. It's so funny. One thing that made me
think of is that John theBaptist is already living out
his vocation to prophesy aboutJesus. And he just does it in I
(15:56):
was gonna say in utero is thatthe right term?
Andy Withrow (15:58):
Gabriel, the angel who appears both to Zechariah.
And Mary Zacharias is going tobe John the Baptist dad. In
chapter one, when he's talkingto Zechariah, he'll be great
before the before the Lord. Youmust not drink wine or strong
drink, he will be filled withthe Holy Spirit, even from his
mother's womb. No way.
Vanessa Caruso (16:18):
It says that says that. This is the proof of
that
Andy Withrow (16:21):
one, chapter one, verse 15. And sure enough, here
he is, yeah. Leaping for joy inElizabeth's womb.
Vanessa Caruso (16:38):
Yeah, that filled with the Holy Spirit that
that's also interesting thatJohn the Baptist is and doesn't
it say that Elizabeth, is filledwith the Spirit? Yes. Passage to
Andy Withrow (16:50):
Elizabeth in verse 41. Elizabeth was filled with
the Holy Spirit, and sheexclaimed with a loud cry.
Vanessa Caruso (16:56):
Yeah. Don't you want to be filled with the Holy
Spirit?
Andy Withrow (17:00):
Yeah. Well, especially within the context of
wonder and blessing,anticipation and the positive
kind of haste. Right. Like Ithink the that ruthless
elimination of hurry. I mean,it's all it's seems like it's
all in this context of negativehaste. But this seems very
(17:21):
mobilizing. Yeah. Fun. Yeah. Andenergetic and in the couldn't
not run 70 miles, with all hasteto, to see you into to greet you
and to talk about what'shappened with us. So it's
fascinating.
Vanessa Caruso (17:39):
Well, you, you probably know this, because
you're who you are. But when Ilike looked up the commentary on
this, it said there is quite areversal happening here in that
Elizabeth is the elder marriesthe younger. So Elizabeth would
have like kind of a higherranking socially. So for she's
(18:03):
kind of the master and marriedbe more like the servant in this
dynamic. So for the servant totravel, or Yeah, the servant
marry to travel to the master.
Makes sense. But Elizabeth kindof reverses all of that by some
of
Andy Withrow (18:18):
my Yeah, my that the mother of my Lord, she'd
come up.
Vanessa Caruso (18:25):
Yeah, she's kind of you. You picture her kind of
like, bowing in reference, like,my, yeah, you're
Andy Withrow (18:31):
right. Mary's Mary's elder, who has a family
or I mean, she's, she's married.
She's in a household andElizabeth Elizabeth. Yes. Yeah.
And, yeah, yeah, that's a goodpoint. Yeah. She's
Vanessa Caruso (18:43):
like an aunt, and then a little, a nice, a
very, very young niece. And yetshe, something happens here,
where it's all turned over,which is indicative of what
Jesus does to people andrelationships.
Andy Withrow (19:01):
And that's, I mean, that's the theme of Mary's
song. You're right. And is thisbig reversal? And I think you
could also you could alsoconnect that to being in the
patriarchal, patriarchalsociety. I mean, Zechariah is
the head of the household here.
And Elizabeth is blessing Maryfor believing what would be
(19:21):
nice, what was told her by theLord who didn't believe and then
you go back to Zechariah storywho's like, has this moment,
same moment that Mary had sameenunciation, but kind of not.
Yeah, but not in the middle ofnowhere, just like the setting
of the announcement to Mary isjust in her hometown of Galilee.
(19:44):
Presumably just, you know, maybein your backyard, she's like
doing chores or something. ButZechariah is in the temple, the
center, the central symbol of ofIsrael's relationship with God
and their their religious classeven more reason to believe in
their by himself in the holyplace. Because he's, he, he drew
(20:06):
the lots to go in and, you know,clean it up and stuff. And this
is where he has the vision. Andyou remember his response. He
sees an angel who tells themthis amazing stuff. And he says,
Prove it. How shall I know this?
(20:28):
I'm old. And then Gabriel losespatience with him. It's like,
well, you want to sign you won'tbe able to speak Wow. Until,
until a child had staff. So Idon't think it's accidental that
this blessing comes fromElizabeth. to Mary blessing is
the one who believed there willbe a fulfillment of what was
(20:50):
spoken to her from the Lord.
Vanessa Caruso (20:58):
So that last part, am I jumping around too
much? No, what you just said, mytranslation says bless it is she
who believed that there would bea fulfillment of those things
spoken to her by the Holy One.
Raz right before that sheblessed are you among women. So
first, she's talking to Mary andthen she's going she goes into
(21:19):
third person. Unless it is shewhich feels a bit like an
opening to all of us. You know,it almost sounds like a psalm or
like the Beatitudes to me. Yeah,like, bless it is the one who
believes that there would befulfillment of those things
spoken to them. Yeah, by theHoly One. Which I really like
(21:39):
that to thinking about Advent,like, the story just is so epic,
that and rightfully so I justtend to think of the characters
in the Bible story is like setapart, you know, like, Jesus,
Mary, Joseph, Gabriel, theshepherds. So that kind of way
(22:01):
of entering the scripture thatwe do. Sometimes it's harder for
me with advent stuff, like theparables are really fun to kind
of imagine, Okay, where am I inthe scene? And who's the
Pharisee? And what's theinvitation. But sometimes the
(22:22):
story is just so enchanted andingrained, that I don't really
see where we fit in, you know,like, we're not there's no
Immaculate Conception for any ofus. Jesus just came once, in a
way, or God is human. But thatfeels like it opens it up to me,
and says, like, there's a gatehere, you know, bless it. Are
(22:43):
you Vanessa, who believes thatthere will be a fulfillment of
those things spoken to you bythe holy one in your life,
Andy Withrow (22:53):
I like that. And it makes it's a nice transition
into Mary's song because it goesfrom the the first person or
the, I guess, the second personyou to the third person, bless
it is she and then Mary's hasthis big song of what it's like
to trust in trust in thegoodness of God and his his
(23:15):
promises. And that he reversesthese things universe turns the
tables on things. And it's juststrikes me that this is a mark
of the Holy Spirit's work in theworld and in our lives, is if
you're looking for evidence ofthe Holy Spirit, which means
very convenient, very differentthings to very different people,
at least in this passage,evidence of the voice marks of
(23:38):
the Holy Spirit is this reversalstuff. Like you he works these
witch witch issues in thiswonder in this anticipation in
this positive haste, andexcitement and wonder, right?
Wow, this is so great. And whowould have thought this would
have happened? And isn't thiswonderful? So you can think of
(24:01):
stories in our own lives or inlives of those around us who've,
like, thought one thing wasimpossible and wasn't going to
happen in that. Yeah. Well, lookwhat happened.
Vanessa Caruso (24:10):
Yeah. That I love that. The reversal is a
sign of the spirit, or thepossible the impossible.
becoming possible.
Andy Withrow (24:24):
Yeah. Yes. And it's not just here. It's not
just here. It's this is Mary'ssong is very similar to Hannah's
song from for Samuel. If youremember when she also she was
sort of in Elizabeth's spot ofunable to conceive. And she goes
to they make their journeys yearafter year to the to the to the
(24:50):
tabernacle, Oh, okay. And sheprays and that's where Eli the
priest at the time Less is her.
And she in a similar way is ableto conceive as this is the birth
story of Samuel becomes a leaderin Israel and she has a song in
I think it's the first or secondchapter must be the second
(25:19):
chapter. I Samuel I feel like Idon't know it very similar. And
I won't read the whole thing.
But just see if you think thatthis is
Vanessa Caruso (25:29):
and then Miriam has a song to write. And Mary
and Miriam kind of sound likethey
Andy Withrow (25:35):
are Yeah, from the IRS. When when they came through
the Red Sea, that's right. Sothis is Chapter Two of First
Samuel. Hannah prayed and said,My heart exalts in the Lord, my
horn is exalted in the Lord. Mymouth derides my enemies because
the rejoicing your salvation,there's none holy like the Lord.
(25:57):
So many says almost the samething. There's none besides, you
know, rock like our God, talk nomore so very proudly, that let
not arrogance come from yourmouth, For the Lord is a God of
knowledge. And by him actionsare way the bowels of the mighty
are broken. But the feeble bindon strength, those who are full
of hire themselves out forbread, but those who are hungry
(26:18):
have ceased to hunger. The Baronhas born seven but she has many
children is for Lauren, she goeson but that same South reversal
themes of God at work in in hispeople. So not an isolated
incidents is my point. This islike the story that God weaves
in through history, time andtime and time again.
Vanessa Caruso (26:45):
Good nugget.
Good night, Andy. Great, and Iget your turn. Okay, this, this
is kind of my, my main thoughtabout this passage is that it
just reminds me of spiritualdirection. Which, you know, even
if you don't know what spiritualdirection is kind of formally, I
(27:05):
think intuitively, we know whatit is to be like a spiritual
friend to someone. Meaning thatthere's a way of being with one
another that is different thanthe kind of problem solving,
advice giving way that there isin the world, like, you know,
(27:28):
you, I tell you about somethingand you're like, something
that's hard in my life orsomething and you say, like,
Well, have you tried this, orhave you thought about this, or
maybe it's because of this, andit just feels like me, something
about that kind of respondingisn't really opening up a space
in me for whatever it is thatI'm looking for. So spiritual
companioning, or kind of being asoul friend, is something that
(27:53):
many of us do, naturally, in afew of our relationships, it's
like this attentive way of beingwith each other that suspend
some of those instincts to fixor to problem solve, or to get
out of the, the mystery or theambivalence of the situation.
And kind of be with the personin a, in a big way. So I
(28:14):
thought, wow, this is such agreat example of, of spiritual
accompaniment, what whatElizabeth does for Mary in
particular. But I don't know ifthis is too, too nuanced to
share. But I am a spiritualdirector, and in my own kind of
practice of that, like my owngrowth. As a spiritual director.
(28:38):
There's kind of this spectrum.
And I wonder if other peoplewould relate with this, from
what I was talking about thatkind of problem solving, advice
giving. And the other side ofthe spectrum might be like just
a very non judgmental, Nanninganxious presence, where you can
tend to think actually, my jobis to not say anything, or do
(29:01):
anything, or have a point ofview or disagree with anything.
And sometimes in my, my field,in my world, it can feel like
that's the right way is to justalmost be a blank slate, where
you just like listen, and you'rejust a good listener, and, and
you don't say anything, or takeany risks, or kind of react to
(29:24):
anything. So in my own, maturematuring as a spiritual
director, I've been looking forsome place kind of in between
those two. And that feels likewe're where I want to grow. And
I feel like Liz Elizabeth kindof demonstrates this, because
she is very in tune with her ownbody and her own point of view,
(29:48):
which is what we actually wantwhen we're sharing our lives
with somebody, you know, andshe's able to do that she's very
in tune and then she, she alsois able to affirm And bless the
other person. So that's what waskind of evocative for me was.
(30:08):
There's this idea. In spiritualaccompaniment, that presence is
what you're going for more thaninsight. So to really be present
to someone kind of has thisbody, yours kind of centered in
your body a little bit more,rather than inside, I tend to
think of as coming from my head.
Like, if I'm listening to you,and I'm trying to, like, have
some revelation for you, or someinsight into what's going on, I
(30:33):
can kind of stay up top. WhereasElizabeth's experience is a
little instead of top downpresence, versus it feels a
little bit more bottom up, whichis a thing in neurobiology and
stuff, top top down is more thecognition was we're bringing
science, you know, I barely knowanything about science, just the
stuff that the top down is kindof the cognitive way. And the
(30:56):
bottom up way of attuning tosomeone is the sensation way.
Yeah. And she is all aboutsensation. Like there's, in a
way like the, you know, the babyin her belly, which is what an
area that we talk a lot aboutwhen we talk about insight and
intuition. And gut is like, youknow, had a gut instinct.
Andy Withrow (31:20):
Yeah, was it that's, it's really interesting
to me now. Because my, my senseis like, those two can't be
separated. Your presence andinsight belong together insight
without presence seems reallyunhelpful. And presence without
insight might still be held.
Well, I guess they're bothhelpful. Yeah. But they're, but
they can maybe violate things ornot be as helpful as when
(31:42):
they're when they're heldtogether. Yeah. What you're
talking about? Yeah, that makesa lot of sense. And even the
concept thing about the conceptof blessing has everything to do
with presence. Yeah. theSpirit's presence in this case,
or God's presence, in namingblessing and naming are tied
together. Yeah. Which requiresinsight. Yeah. Yeah. So there's
(32:02):
some interesting things going onthere.
Vanessa Caruso (32:09):
Yeah, it feels a little abstract. To me. Still,
like even the word presence,it's such a popular word and
away and you're like, what doesit actually mean? Like, I just
want to be present to you andwrite what you know. What does
that look like? But I feel likeshe there is. There are clues
here. There's something aboutElizabeth's ability to both know
(32:35):
what's going on in her. Yeah,pay attention to another and
then Yeah, take that. Take thatstep of speaking, and naming.
You know, in the loud cry, likethat's pretty, she's pretty in
the moment, to exclaim with aloud cry. So that just made me
(32:55):
wonder, okay, what would it looklike to, to cultivate that? And
I think it's what we have talkedabout a lot already, it's kind
of the belief and practice,which this podcast is all about,
integrating the two. Because inorder to be present to other
people, we have to continue tolearn how to be present to
(33:18):
ourselves and present to God.
Like they, it all is one cloth,yeah. So to make space in our
lives and recognize that we needboth, we need like the outlet
and the expression of being witheach other, affirming one
another. Taking risks ofvulnerability, taking risks of,
of blessing. And then also thattime it takes to get to know in
(33:39):
our bodies, in our emotions, inour stories, what does what does
God look like and what does theHoly Spirit how does the Holy
Spirit express themselves in mylife? What did that feel like?
Like the people that were cut tothe heart you know, in Acts by
Peters preaching, maybe, youknow, it's like, there appears
(34:05):
to the harder cuts of the heartfeel similar to me to
Elizabeth's my belly leaped.
There's like this internalresonance with what is going on
in the outside world. Andlearning how to name that
recognize it cultivate it, thankGod for it feels like the work
(34:25):
of our kind of inner life.
Andy Withrow (34:28):
Yeah, yeah. It seems like a waking up. In some
ways, even going back tothinking of my conversation with
my friend about oh, I missedthat wonder or that sense of
wonder in the world or in life.
And just feeling our sensesdulled or grown a bit cynical,
or, or, or whatever. Yeah, justwait like, Oh, no awakening to
(34:52):
God at work. Yeah. In our livesin the spirit. work in our
lives? Yeah, like that. It'sgood. It's tied to with another
episode that we've done. By thetime this airs, I think will
(35:13):
have aired. But the idea ofbecause the previous one is, in
some ways, we're talking aboutbearing Christ. Like, literally,
Mary is literally bearing Christliterally. Right, but she
becomes this model for thechurch, this this symbol for us,
that we also bear Christ not inthe exact way that Mary did, but
(35:36):
in in a significant andmeaningful way. And that for
those who bear Christ, there isa blessing. Because of the
presence again, yeah. And so Iguess the question is, what does
it mean, we talked about thislast time in the series of
episodes of reading, but justthinking about what it means to
bear Christ, carry him with uswherever we go. And that can be
(35:59):
something that's done,consciously, and maybe even
unconsciously, it's like, whenMary was walking around for
those nine months, pregnant withChrist with Jesus. She wasn't
always constantly aware of him.
She probably often was, yeah.
But often was just going aboutlife. Yeah, but still bearing
(36:19):
Christ. And so is a helpfulimage for me of thinking about.
It's not all dependent on myefforts, or my consciousness.
That God is whether or not I'mthinking about him. Yeah, and
the object permanence that wehopefully learn as infants have
to relearn as adults for some ofthese things. That we can still
(36:43):
be bearers of Christ, regardlessof our awareness of it. And that
knowing or trusting that canhelp our awareness of it. So
it's not so dependent, not this.
I have to work so hard at myspirituality. Yeah. Not that
(37:04):
that's not necessarily likethere's good work to do there.
But that this is true.
Regardless of my awareness, allthat, yeah, I love that. And
your rest have to allow that forrest. I can rest in knowing that
I bear the marks in the presenceof Jesus with me as I go as the
(37:25):
Spirit's work in my life. IfI'm, you know, if I can, if I'm
a Christian, from my ultimateallegiance, signified by my
baptism, to Jesus is such, thenI'm going to trust that he was
with me, even when I'm goingabout my life, and that I bear
Christ's presence as I go. Mmhmm. And sometimes I have the
(37:47):
joy of remembering. And reigniting and awakening the
wonder of it and what thatmeans, and looking at being
awake, to two that are beingaware of that. And I think
that's where the some of thislanguage of Mary's song comes
into magnify the Lord Rejoice inthe Lord remember, our this
(38:08):
blessing this presence that goeswith us? And, and she doesn't
have a distinction between orcontroversy, a contradiction
between rejoicing in the Lordand fearing the Lord. Those two
her arm, they belong together.
Yeah. Join the Lord, fearsomebolt, or our make sense to her,
(38:34):
in her in her understanding ofwho God is. Wow, that's cool. I
think for me, that helps restoresome of the that wonder stuff
was so much bigger. Yeah, I getto be part of this story. It's
so much bigger than me. Yeah, itdoes not depend on me, thank
God. But I get to, I get toparticipate in it. And, and
(38:59):
hopefully, awaken more and moreand more to the story as we go.
Vanessa Caruso (39:06):
Oh, I love the idea of awakening to the reality
that Christ is with us andwithin us. And also that idea
that we don't have to like, pickChrist up like a backpack. And
if we forget to, we've beenwithout the backpack for three
months, you're kind of sayingit's not a backpack. Price isn't
(39:29):
a backpack there. God is withus, regardless, and sometimes we
have the joy of noticing that.
And then we go about our day orour week. So any ideas about
kind of the some of the apliqueapplication of these ideas?
We've we've mentioned some alongthe way, but like, what does
(39:53):
this look like?
Andy Withrow (39:56):
I think I mean, the thing that really jumps out
to me for all that stuff is justthe importance of our routines
and rhythms like, Do not forsakethe gathering of the saints of
God's people. Like you want to.
If you want to re instillwonder, then you have to have
some sort of rhythm and liturgyfor your life. Yeah. Have, as at
every level, you can these thesesymbols and markers that, that
(40:21):
bring you back into the story.
Yeah. From, from just being in ahabit of reading the stories,
and inhabit like hate language,you know, inhabiting the
stories, but, but living intothem, and doing that really
(40:44):
humble work of finding ourselvesin the stories and then seeing
the stories lived out in ourstory in our lives. And
participating in, in worshiptogether, where the symbols are,
are there of these stories? Imean, symbols from from baptism
(41:10):
with the, you know, we put thefont at the back of the churches
we enter in and some people liketo put their little finger in
the water and make the sign ofthe cross, like nothing magical
about it. I don't think exceptin the very broad sense of magic
that Louis or Chesterton mighttalk about, like, yeah, there is
magic here. But to, to going upfor for Eucharist, or communion,
(41:39):
and receiving the bread and thewine or the body in the blood,
to participating in prayers andthe songs to our own symbols we
might have around our house thatremind us of the larger story.
(42:00):
Could I mean could be anything?
Vanessa Caruso (42:02):
Yeah. Yeah, I love that.
Andy Withrow (42:07):
was just thinking out loud.
Vanessa Caruso (42:09):
That's where I go to initially, of course,
moment, maybe not, of course,but I just am so in line with
that, like, the rhythms androutines. And then also, what's
coming to mind is just that,that openness, like I thought
of, you know, the differencebetween if only, and what if,
(42:31):
like that, if only kind ofthinking that, that is so
tempting for me. Like if only wehad more money, or if only I had
more time, or if only thishappened or this didn't happen,
then I would be happy or readyor present, whatever whatever
(42:54):
the case may be. That just likenever, never ends. There's like
an infinite cycle to that kindof thinking. But the what if
feels so different, like what ifGod knows my limitations and the
limitations of my life? What ifGod knows our as a people in
(43:17):
this time and place in historyin the city knows our
limitations and is, is workingwithin them. And that posture
just feels so different kind ofwaking up in the morning and you
know, shuffling our way to ourlife with kind of a resignation,
(43:40):
what your friend was talkingabout, which I totally relate
with just kind of that likeokay, it's gonna be a busy
season or whatever the feelingis, the extended family got to
make choices about money justthat that different posture of
what what if what if the storyis open and the Spirit is at
(44:08):
work in my life
Andy Withrow (44:14):
yeah, in what if and also I think I think for me,
it's growing into a definitelyis,
Vanessa Caruso (44:28):
Oh, I like that.
Like
Andy Withrow (44:31):
the we talked about this, maybe an episode a
few episodes ago of the too goodto be true stuff, where it's
like, what if we had a goodfather in all of this? who
oversaw everything and was thehead of our house, you know, our
big household and, and promisedto take care of us and work all
(44:55):
things for the good in ourlives, even even if we have
trouble seeing it at times. Tohave that bigger narrative or
that bigger story of I know thatGod has me and to, to live into
that. But you're right. I mean,I think it has stages of, of, of
being open to the what if, andthen learning to live into the
(45:17):
definitely is that this is sogood. Yeah, this is so good.
Even, even not not living anunreality of there's great
tragedy and evil in our worldand sometimes often impacting
our lives. It's not ignoringthat or not mourning it or being
honest about it. But knowingthat there's a bigger story at
(45:40):
work, yeah, this stuff. I foundsomething I wrote down. Great.
That goes back to the beginning.
Where Mary's traveling, okay,okay, I didn't write the very,
very poor practicing. I didn'twrite the reference down of who
this is from, but as this ismost probably Hebron. Okay,
yeah. A city of the priests inScituate in the hill country of
(46:04):
Judea, about 25 miles south ofJerusalem, nearly 100. from
Nazareth. Wow. Such was theintense desire of Mary's mind to
visit and communicate with arelative Elizabeth, that she
undertook this long journey.
Vanessa Caruso (46:22):
That is long, yeah.
Andy Withrow (46:25):
long journey. And then just think about Mary's
song, and in Hannah's song, theoverlap there and the same
themes. And I just wrote thesethree things down from, I think,
from some theology book I wasthumbing around in. But there's
(46:48):
three disputes. In these songs,interesting to think about one
dispute in their song is thatpeople are hopelessly fated in
their circumstance, I understandthat one. Another one about
human autonomy can proceed as atonce. So it's the turning of
tables. So those in power likeare fine, no problem. Yeah. That
(47:12):
human autonomy, I'm going todefine my life or there's a
well, there's the way instanceof God. And thirdly, that
counter political power canresist the Lord. So these are
the three disputes of theirsongs, that they're pointing to
the evidence of what's happeningin their lives as data points
(47:32):
that resist or that mound to thetruth of, of God's victory. Wow,
that's pretty intense. That'spretty fun. Yeah. That's pretty
fun. And it's, it's a nice, it'sa nice reminder that our
spirituality doesn't just dependon us or that, that, that these
(47:54):
truths or ideas about who Godis, isn't just in our heads or
our hearts, that we get toparticipate with our heads and
our hearts into this largerthing that is out there. And
that is happening. Like theseare the song focuses on big
picture like political events,and, and rulers and those who
(48:15):
are in power and saying, No,that's all going to be turned
around. That's pretty radicalthrough what's happening in
Mary's womb. And through what'shappening as you and I go about
our days bearing Christ with us.
Vanessa Caruso (48:37):
Drop the mic. So I
Andy Withrow (48:38):
got my notes.
That's
Vanessa Caruso (48:41):
all I have to.
Andy Withrow (48:45):
Great happy happen. Yeah, everybody.
Vanessa Caruso (48:48):
Yeah, I feel a little bit like looking for the
reversals, you know, and likewhen you said, Mary, Mary, and
Hannah, have these data pointsfrom their own life data data,
is Canadian, your data point? Tothat kind of touch on these
(49:11):
conflicts are these claims. Andit makes me just want to look
for evidence of that. Yeah. Inthe world. Yeah. And it kind of
makes me want to write amagnifica or a song like using
hers as a template. And I don'tknow what I will say, but just
to try to get into that spacewhere I see what she's talking
(49:34):
about. Through my own eyes.
Blessing is the one who believesthat there would be a
fulfillment of those thingsspoken to her by the Holy One.
To him,
Andy Withrow (49:46):
there's a song we sing at the table. Everyone's
called blessing or blessing,receive the blessing of God. And
it's one of my favorite songsbecause it's just it's just kind
of that refrain.
Vanessa Caruso (49:57):
Sandra, isn't it?
Andy Withrow (49:58):
No, it's true. The beloved art sound Seattle. And
was really, really good. It'sactually it's Henry now and it's
just worth sitting down put tomusic.
Vanessa Caruso (50:09):
Wow. Maybe you should play at the end of this
podcast. Like their frame. Yeah,that's a good episode. I think I
don't you mean it's likereceive? receive,
Andy Withrow (50:18):
receive the blessing of God. Yeah that yeah
receive over and over again.
Yeah. And it's, I think becauseI'm trying to think of where as
we're kind of at the end andthink of practical stuff. Just
think of Mary and Elizabeth,just receiving and reflecting on
what's happened yeah. And thatrefrain at the end their
(50:41):
blessing is she who believedthat there would be a
fulfillment of what was spokento her from the Lord, like being
in a spot Mary being in the spotto receive what the what the
messenger of the Lord had totell her, which is probably why
she was selected. Like, thatkind of imagination. Yeah. And
that kind of availability,imagination, availability,
(51:02):
trust, and knowledge that theGod that I know is the God who
does this kind of stuff. Whoturns the tables, yes,
unexpected, who, who pulls therug out from under neath the
proud, it's too good not to betrue. It's too good not to be
true. And it's too good to betrue at the same time. And as a
posture for advent of justhaving some open hands, and
(51:27):
learning just to receive thewonder of the season, the wonder
of who God is in the story. Andto receive it in our lives.
What's the just sort of theimage I have loving the season,
take out where you're going todo and help me help me to be
present enough to see it and toreceive it.
Vanessa Caruso (51:51):
And to connect the dots to this is what I know
of you, like she does in hersong. Like this is actually very
characteristic. The God that Ihave read about, heard about and
know. Right.
Andy Withrow (52:08):
Thanks for now, so if my calculations are correct,
this is our last episode of2021.
Vanessa Caruso (52:14):
Oh, really?
Yeah. Wow.
Andy Withrow (52:16):
So we'll see you next year new year. We think
with some January
Welcome to the bear with me podcast on table
radio, where we aim to integratebelief and practice
Vanessa Caruso (00:09):
in the Christian. And Ron, yeah, great.
We are nice to be back. So we'regoing to talk about Mary and
Elizabeth today. And Luke. Yes.
So I just thought it would behelpful to some, perhaps, to say
(00:34):
the obvious, which is that inAdvent, there are a lot of
images around pregnancy, andbabies. So we are both aware of
friends in our lives who havesome hurts in this area, either
(00:54):
longing to have a child, or alonging to be able to carry a
pregnancy full term, or to evenget pregnant. So just wanted to
say at the outset of this, thatsome of those themes will come
up. And if that feels too tenderof an area, you are welcome to
skip this episode, although wewill keep it in mind as we share
(01:20):
our reflections.
Andy Withrow (01:24):
So yeah, let's start out with the story. Yeah.
Do you want to read?
Vanessa Caruso (01:28):
Sure, I'll read it. Great. You know, there's so
many stories in the Bible thatwe know more than others. And I
always have this little feelingbefore getting to one of those
stories. Maybe I don't know ifyou have this, but you're
sitting in church, and thepastor says, like, we're gonna
talk about the sower and theseed, or Mary and Martha, and
(01:48):
you're like, oh, been there?
Andy Withrow (01:50):
Well, yeah, you have one or two reaction, like,
Oh, it's my favorite. I lovethat we're here. Yeah.
Vanessa Caruso (01:56):
That one again.
So um, I just like to rememberthat scriptures life. And
there's new things all the timefor us, you know, just because
we know all these, some of usknow all these Advent stories
really well, like they're justso much part of our narrative,
that there might be somethingfresh in here for us. Are you
ready? I'm ready. This one isabout Mary and Elizabeth. And I
(02:20):
guess since I'm reading it outloud. People who are listening
can kind of listen for whatstands out to them. That's
always fun to just see. What isit that registers with me? And
for what reason? So this is Lukeone starting at 39. Mary set out
in those days and went to thehill country with haste to a
(02:44):
Judy in town. There she enteredthe house of Zechariah and
greeted Elizabeth. Now, WhenElizabeth heard Mary's greeting,
the baby leaped in her womb, andElizabeth was filled with the
Holy Spirit. Elizabeth exclaimedwith a loud cry. Bless it, are
you among women, and blessed isthe fruit of your womb? From
(03:07):
where does this visit come tome? That the mother of my
sovereign comes to me? Look, assoon as I heard the sound of
your greeting in my ear, thebaby in my womb leaped for joy.
Now bless it is she who believedthat there would be a
fulfillment of those thingsspoken to her by the Holy One?
(03:36):
Is that the same passage here?
Andy Withrow (03:37):
Yeah, but then mine keeps going, oh, what else
does it then Mary said, My soulmagnifies the Lord. Oh, and my
spirit rejoices and God mysavior, for he has looked on the
humble estate of his servant.
For behold, from now on, allgenerations will call me
blessed. For he who is mightyhas done great things for me,
and holy is his name. And hismercy is for those who fear him
(03:59):
from generation to generation.
He has shown strength with hisarm. He has scattered the proud
of the thoughts of their hearts.
He has brought down the mightyfrom their thrones and exalted
those of humble estate. He hasfilled the hungry with good
things, and the rich he has sentaway empty. He has helped us
serve in Israel in remembranceof his mercy, as he spoke to our
fathers to Abraham, to hisoffspring forever. And Mary
(04:21):
remained with her with Elizabethfor about three months and
returned to her home. Statethree months yeah. Very song.
Right. We're both we're bothpreaching this. Yes. An
adventure. Two to four weeks. Itlooks like I have to preach
(04:45):
twice as much as you do.
Vanessa Caruso (04:48):
Yeah, if you do the Magnificat too. That's big.
Andy Withrow (04:53):
Yeah, it is. It's a big song. So yeah, let's jump
in here. Let's just I mean, wedon't have we both neither of us
really have an outline at thispoint. We're just kind of
looking at kind of reflecting onthings that that kind of struck
us with the story. So if it isonce you start with one of
yours, and then we'll kind ofgo, we'll trade. We'll trade
nuggets, great. Nuggets.
Vanessa Caruso (05:17):
Well, this is this is really little one, but
just something I hadn't noticedbefore. Just that this is
there's a travel situationhappening here. Yeah. Marry it.
I looked it up and it'ssomething like 70 miles from
where she was to get good.
That's a good hike. Really, likereally good.
Andy Withrow (05:37):
That's 70 miles.
Yeah,
Vanessa Caruso (05:39):
that's what it said to the hill country, right?
Andy Withrow (05:43):
Yeah, I was reading something probably
somewhere south of Jerusalem islikely was a Hebron.
Vanessa Caruso (05:47):
Remember? That sounds familiar, doesn't it?
Yeah. Yeah. So that and thehaste, there's that she went
there with haste. I just feltcomforted. Because the Advent
slash Christmas season in NorthAmerica tends to have for at
(06:11):
least middle class people tendsto have a lot of travel. And I
mean, seriously, and
Andy Withrow (06:21):
it's time to go to grandma's Make haste to get your
coat. Exactly. Go to thebathroom before we leave.
Vanessa Caruso (06:27):
Yeah. Hurry up.
Yeah, all that stuff. And inthe, you know, some of the the
worlds I occupy now, you know,spiritual formation and the
contemplative tradition andspiritual direction. There's,
there's a lot around thespacious life and the cultivated
life, flow life. And I love allthese things and feel like
(06:49):
they're needed for our moderncontext. But
Andy Withrow (06:54):
you're wondering if there's a time to make haste?
Vanessa Caruso (06:56):
Well, I just love that it's a reality. Right?
That's what I mean. Like, it's,it's not necessarily a liability
or a doesn't disqualify us.
Yeah.
Andy Withrow (07:09):
But it makes me think of, why is Mary making
haste? What's her hurry in this?
In this setting?
Vanessa Caruso (07:15):
Good question. I
Andy Withrow (07:16):
hadn't thought about is it? Is it excitement
about what's happened about whatthe previous episode was just
been told to her the news? Yeah.
In the previous episode, shelearned that the angel appears
to her and you will have get thelanguage right here.
Vanessa Caruso (07:35):
You will have
Andy Withrow (07:38):
you found favor with God, behold, you will
conceive in your womb bear a soncalls named Jesus, he'll be
great, called the Son of theMost High Lord God will give him
the throne of his father David,he will reign over the house of
Jacob forever and his kingdomwill there will be no end. The
Holy Spirit will come upon youin the power of the most time
overshadow you, therefore, thechild to be born will be called
(07:59):
holy, the Son of God. So shelearns that's kind of a big
thing. And then she also learnsnext that her relative,
Elizabeth, in her old age hasalso conceived a son. Yeah. And
she's in the sixth month.
Vanessa Caruso (08:16):
Oh, it says that. Yeah. Well, that's
probably why
Andy Withrow (08:21):
she said it says why she said three. Yeah, that's
three. Do
Vanessa Caruso (08:25):
you think she was there for John the Baptist?
His
Andy Withrow (08:26):
birth? Well? Yes,
Vanessa Caruso (08:30):
you think so?
Yeah. How do you know? I don't?
Oh,
Andy Withrow (08:33):
you thought so?
Oh, yeah. That was three nine. Imean, it would be it would be
too bad to stay like nine monthsand then be like, he's coming
any day. I'm just gonna go
Vanessa Caruso (08:45):
70 mile hike.
That's why she stayed. It kindof massive time. I was kind of
thinking perhaps had somethingto do with her. Her timing like,
you know, the scandalous natureof her being pregnant and just
maybe she maybe it was aroundthe time when she would start to
(09:06):
really show Yeah. And she wasable to cover you know, hide it
for a bit at this point. I don'tknow. Yeah, I don't know. But
there's haste
Andy Withrow (09:16):
but if it's in the it just I mean, this is all
speculative. Yeah, but it's isfascinating. Because this she's
in the six months she says threeis a nice fit but that'd be the
first three months presumably ofMary's pregnancy where she
probably isn't showing us muchto kind of comes back at the
time that you're pregnant. Yeah.
Weird, which is interesting, butbut Could be. Could be
(09:40):
anticipation could beexcitement. astonishment, or
what's been said and announcedexcitement for her relative
Elizabeth who in her old age,conceived and sharing seek the
two women sharing a secret.
Yeah, and that sounds like areally Amazing. Positive Yeah.
(10:05):
Yeah, it does this whole sceneis about rejoicing and wonder.
Vanessa Caruso (10:10):
Yeah. So don't you like that haste is in here.
You know that popular book thatruthless elimination of hurry?
Yeah. It's basically theruthless elimination of haste.
Yeah. But here there is. Here isa positive Hey, yeah. It's like
an urgency. And it's motivatedby something.
Andy Withrow (10:32):
Yeah, it's like, it's like when you're in the
living room reading a book andyour kids are playing quietly.
And all of a sudden when onegoes, and they just think of
something, they run back totheir room and they go grab
something they want to show youor play with or something like a
great example. Like, yeah, doesexuberance. I don't know. It
(10:53):
doesn't we don't. It's notexplained. But it's just like,
you wonder, because just thewhole scene is dripping with
sort of wonder and excitementand blessing.
Vanessa Caruso (11:03):
And there's, there's a theme in the story of
spontaneity to me. Haste hasthat has that feel like you
said, like, that's, that feelslike the expression. Yeah.
Getting things together andgetting out on time. But also,
the leaping for joy mentioned acouple times, yeah, like a belly
(11:23):
of a baby leaping in the wombfor joy. And Elizabeth's
spontaneous, like affirmationand blessing, which precedes
Yeah, this beautiful poem fromMary. Yeah, so that was that's
just like one of my generalobservations from the story.
(11:44):
Yeah. And wondering what itmeans for us for adventure is
the spontaneous nature of whathappens when we are living life
with God and sharing it with oneanother. It just feels like the
script is kind of exciting andisn't written. Yet, you know,
like, we're, it's being writtenas we live in. Yeah. So that,
(12:08):
that felt exciting to be tothink about having adventures
because we do tend to hang outwith friends and fellow church
people and relatives that weenjoy, or, or don't so much. But
there is a lot of relatingduring the season. Yeah, for
(12:29):
many of us. And so it just mademe wonder what would it be like
to have that kind of wonderposture, about the spontaneity
what can come? Yeah, when we'rejust paying attention and in the
present moment, and kind ofopen, open to the spirit really?
Andy Withrow (12:50):
Yeah, I was talking to a friend a couple
weeks ago about this passage.
And he had said, he said, that'swhat he felt like he missed is
the that will the one and then Ididn't even kind of pick up on
this theme of wonder he hepicked up on it and said, the
wonder of it. And I wish I couldhave like, long for that kind of
thing. That kind of experience,not just of Advent, though.
(13:15):
Definitely that but just ingeneral. But also definitely
Advent like a lot of us, I thinkhave at some point growing up,
kind of associate that seasonwith wonder and anticipation.
Yeah, it's whether it's giftsunder the tree or, or family
visiting, like just the childwaiting out the window for hours
(13:36):
when they know that extendedfamily is on their way and
wanting to know, when did theyleave? Do they are there any
updates? Did they call in? Yeah,you know, are they supposed to
be here in the next hour? Orit's gonna be three hours? And
we're baking cookies and we'regetting, you know, all that kind
of stuff?
Vanessa Caruso (13:53):
Yeah, it's kind of an enchanted season.
Andy Withrow (13:57):
I think we missed that. Yeah, a lot of us might
miss that. Wish we had it again.
Vanessa Caruso (14:01):
How do we get it back? If we don't have it?
Andy Withrow (14:06):
I don't know.
We're not here to point thatout. We're just here to point
out the desire for great. I wishwe had one day I wonder I don't
know. Maybe that'll come up. Ithink someone out there will
have an idea right into theshow. Yeah, the show.
Vanessa Caruso (14:26):
An echo the show show. Okay. Do you have a
nugget. So I guess I know that
Andy Withrow (14:32):
was a good one. I don't want to move on from
wonder. Haste and wonder Makehaste. That's good. My, the
first observation I had was justhow the Spirit's role in all of
this. It says that Elizabeth wasfilled with the Holy Spirit. And
(14:56):
she exclaimed with a loud cry,which Yeah, Interesting or
weird? Yeah. Associate feelingwith the Holy Spirit with a loud
cry. Yeah. Which is thisblessing? Plus are you among
women and blessed to the fruitof your womb? So that was
interesting. And the baby leapsin the womb for joy. For behold,
(15:24):
when the sound of your greetingcame to me is that even leaped
for joy? Is what Elizabeth says.
Which is, which is funny?
Vanessa Caruso (15:34):
Yeah. It's so funny. One thing that made me
think of is that John theBaptist is already living out
his vocation to prophesy aboutJesus. And he just does it in I
(15:56):
was gonna say in utero is thatthe right term?
Andy Withrow (15:58):
Gabriel, the angel who appears both to Zechariah.
And Mary Zacharias is going tobe John the Baptist dad. In
chapter one, when he's talkingto Zechariah, he'll be great
before the before the Lord. Youmust not drink wine or strong
drink, he will be filled withthe Holy Spirit, even from his
mother's womb. No way.
Vanessa Caruso (16:18):
It says that says that. This is the proof of
that
Andy Withrow (16:21):
one, chapter one, verse 15. And sure enough, here
he is, yeah. Leaping for joy inElizabeth's womb.
Vanessa Caruso (16:38):
Yeah, that filled with the Holy Spirit that
that's also interesting thatJohn the Baptist is and doesn't
it say that Elizabeth, is filledwith the Spirit? Yes. Passage to
Andy Withrow (16:50):
Elizabeth in verse 41. Elizabeth was filled with
the Holy Spirit, and sheexclaimed with a loud cry.
Vanessa Caruso (16:56):
Yeah. Don't you want to be filled with the Holy
Spirit?
Andy Withrow (17:00):
Yeah. Well, especially within the context of
wonder and blessing,anticipation and the positive
kind of haste. Right. Like Ithink the that ruthless
elimination of hurry. I mean,it's all it's seems like it's
all in this context of negativehaste. But this seems very
(17:21):
mobilizing. Yeah. Fun. Yeah. Andenergetic and in the couldn't
not run 70 miles, with all hasteto, to see you into to greet you
and to talk about what'shappened with us. So it's
fascinating.
Vanessa Caruso (17:39):
Well, you, you probably know this, because
you're who you are. But when Ilike looked up the commentary on
this, it said there is quite areversal happening here in that
Elizabeth is the elder marriesthe younger. So Elizabeth would
have like kind of a higherranking socially. So for she's
(18:03):
kind of the master and marriedbe more like the servant in this
dynamic. So for the servant totravel, or Yeah, the servant
marry to travel to the master.
Makes sense. But Elizabeth kindof reverses all of that by some
of
Andy Withrow (18:18):
my Yeah, my that the mother of my Lord, she'd
come up.
Vanessa Caruso (18:25):
Yeah, she's kind of you. You picture her kind of
like, bowing in reference, like,my, yeah, you're
Andy Withrow (18:31):
right. Mary's Mary's elder, who has a family
or I mean, she's, she's married.
She's in a household andElizabeth Elizabeth. Yes. Yeah.
And, yeah, yeah, that's a goodpoint. Yeah. She's
Vanessa Caruso (18:43):
like an aunt, and then a little, a nice, a
very, very young niece. And yetshe, something happens here,
where it's all turned over,which is indicative of what
Jesus does to people andrelationships.
Andy Withrow (19:01):
And that's, I mean, that's the theme of Mary's
song. You're right. And is thisbig reversal? And I think you
could also you could alsoconnect that to being in the
patriarchal, patriarchalsociety. I mean, Zechariah is
the head of the household here.
And Elizabeth is blessing Maryfor believing what would be
(19:21):
nice, what was told her by theLord who didn't believe and then
you go back to Zechariah storywho's like, has this moment,
same moment that Mary had sameenunciation, but kind of not.
Yeah, but not in the middle ofnowhere, just like the setting
of the announcement to Mary isjust in her hometown of Galilee.
(19:44):
Presumably just, you know, maybein your backyard, she's like
doing chores or something. ButZechariah is in the temple, the
center, the central symbol of ofIsrael's relationship with God
and their their religious classeven more reason to believe in
their by himself in the holyplace. Because he's, he, he drew
(20:06):
the lots to go in and, you know,clean it up and stuff. And this
is where he has the vision. Andyou remember his response. He
sees an angel who tells themthis amazing stuff. And he says,
Prove it. How shall I know this?
(20:28):
I'm old. And then Gabriel losespatience with him. It's like,
well, you want to sign you won'tbe able to speak Wow. Until,
until a child had staff. So Idon't think it's accidental that
this blessing comes fromElizabeth. to Mary blessing is
the one who believed there willbe a fulfillment of what was
(20:50):
spoken to her from the Lord.
Vanessa Caruso (20:58):
So that last part, am I jumping around too
much? No, what you just said, mytranslation says bless it is she
who believed that there would bea fulfillment of those things
spoken to her by the Holy One.
Raz right before that sheblessed are you among women. So
first, she's talking to Mary andthen she's going she goes into
(21:19):
third person. Unless it is shewhich feels a bit like an
opening to all of us. You know,it almost sounds like a psalm or
like the Beatitudes to me. Yeah,like, bless it is the one who
believes that there would befulfillment of those things
spoken to them. Yeah, by theHoly One. Which I really like
(21:39):
that to thinking about Advent,like, the story just is so epic,
that and rightfully so I justtend to think of the characters
in the Bible story is like setapart, you know, like, Jesus,
Mary, Joseph, Gabriel, theshepherds. So that kind of way
(22:01):
of entering the scripture thatwe do. Sometimes it's harder for
me with advent stuff, like theparables are really fun to kind
of imagine, Okay, where am I inthe scene? And who's the
Pharisee? And what's theinvitation. But sometimes the
(22:22):
story is just so enchanted andingrained, that I don't really
see where we fit in, you know,like, we're not there's no
Immaculate Conception for any ofus. Jesus just came once, in a
way, or God is human. But thatfeels like it opens it up to me,
and says, like, there's a gatehere, you know, bless it. Are
(22:43):
you Vanessa, who believes thatthere will be a fulfillment of
those things spoken to you bythe holy one in your life,
Andy Withrow (22:53):
I like that. And it makes it's a nice transition
into Mary's song because it goesfrom the the first person or
the, I guess, the second personyou to the third person, bless
it is she and then Mary's hasthis big song of what it's like
to trust in trust in thegoodness of God and his his
(23:15):
promises. And that he reversesthese things universe turns the
tables on things. And it's juststrikes me that this is a mark
of the Holy Spirit's work in theworld and in our lives, is if
you're looking for evidence ofthe Holy Spirit, which means
very convenient, very differentthings to very different people,
at least in this passage,evidence of the voice marks of
(23:38):
the Holy Spirit is this reversalstuff. Like you he works these
witch witch issues in thiswonder in this anticipation in
this positive haste, andexcitement and wonder, right?
Wow, this is so great. And whowould have thought this would
have happened? And isn't thiswonderful? So you can think of
(24:01):
stories in our own lives or inlives of those around us who've,
like, thought one thing wasimpossible and wasn't going to
happen in that. Yeah. Well, lookwhat happened.
Vanessa Caruso (24:10):
Yeah. That I love that. The reversal is a
sign of the spirit, or thepossible the impossible.
becoming possible.
Andy Withrow (24:24):
Yeah. Yes. And it's not just here. It's not
just here. It's this is Mary'ssong is very similar to Hannah's
song from for Samuel. If youremember when she also she was
sort of in Elizabeth's spot ofunable to conceive. And she goes
to they make their journeys yearafter year to the to the to the
(24:50):
tabernacle, Oh, okay. And sheprays and that's where Eli the
priest at the time Less is her.
And she in a similar way is ableto conceive as this is the birth
story of Samuel becomes a leaderin Israel and she has a song in
I think it's the first or secondchapter must be the second
(25:19):
chapter. I Samuel I feel like Idon't know it very similar. And
I won't read the whole thing.
But just see if you think thatthis is
Vanessa Caruso (25:29):
and then Miriam has a song to write. And Mary
and Miriam kind of sound likethey
Andy Withrow (25:35):
are Yeah, from the IRS. When when they came through
the Red Sea, that's right. Sothis is Chapter Two of First
Samuel. Hannah prayed and said,My heart exalts in the Lord, my
horn is exalted in the Lord. Mymouth derides my enemies because
the rejoicing your salvation,there's none holy like the Lord.
(25:57):
So many says almost the samething. There's none besides, you
know, rock like our God, talk nomore so very proudly, that let
not arrogance come from yourmouth, For the Lord is a God of
knowledge. And by him actionsare way the bowels of the mighty
are broken. But the feeble bindon strength, those who are full
of hire themselves out forbread, but those who are hungry
(26:18):
have ceased to hunger. The Baronhas born seven but she has many
children is for Lauren, she goeson but that same South reversal
themes of God at work in in hispeople. So not an isolated
incidents is my point. This islike the story that God weaves
in through history, time andtime and time again.
Vanessa Caruso (26:45):
Good nugget.
Good night, Andy. Great, and Iget your turn. Okay, this, this
is kind of my, my main thoughtabout this passage is that it
just reminds me of spiritualdirection. Which, you know, even
if you don't know what spiritualdirection is kind of formally, I
(27:05):
think intuitively, we know whatit is to be like a spiritual
friend to someone. Meaning thatthere's a way of being with one
another that is different thanthe kind of problem solving,
advice giving way that there isin the world, like, you know,
(27:28):
you, I tell you about somethingand you're like, something
that's hard in my life orsomething and you say, like,
Well, have you tried this, orhave you thought about this, or
maybe it's because of this, andit just feels like me, something
about that kind of respondingisn't really opening up a space
in me for whatever it is thatI'm looking for. So spiritual
companioning, or kind of being asoul friend, is something that
(27:53):
many of us do, naturally, in afew of our relationships, it's
like this attentive way of beingwith each other that suspend
some of those instincts to fixor to problem solve, or to get
out of the, the mystery or theambivalence of the situation.
And kind of be with the personin a, in a big way. So I
(28:14):
thought, wow, this is such agreat example of, of spiritual
accompaniment, what whatElizabeth does for Mary in
particular. But I don't know ifthis is too, too nuanced to
share. But I am a spiritualdirector, and in my own kind of
practice of that, like my owngrowth. As a spiritual director.
(28:38):
There's kind of this spectrum.
And I wonder if other peoplewould relate with this, from
what I was talking about thatkind of problem solving, advice
giving. And the other side ofthe spectrum might be like just
a very non judgmental, Nanninganxious presence, where you can
tend to think actually, my jobis to not say anything, or do
(29:01):
anything, or have a point ofview or disagree with anything.
And sometimes in my, my field,in my world, it can feel like
that's the right way is to justalmost be a blank slate, where
you just like listen, and you'rejust a good listener, and, and
you don't say anything, or takeany risks, or kind of react to
(29:24):
anything. So in my own, maturematuring as a spiritual
director, I've been looking forsome place kind of in between
those two. And that feels likewe're where I want to grow. And
I feel like Liz Elizabeth kindof demonstrates this, because
she is very in tune with her ownbody and her own point of view,
(29:48):
which is what we actually wantwhen we're sharing our lives
with somebody, you know, andshe's able to do that she's very
in tune and then she, she alsois able to affirm And bless the
other person. So that's what waskind of evocative for me was.
(30:08):
There's this idea. In spiritualaccompaniment, that presence is
what you're going for more thaninsight. So to really be present
to someone kind of has thisbody, yours kind of centered in
your body a little bit more,rather than inside, I tend to
think of as coming from my head.
Like, if I'm listening to you,and I'm trying to, like, have
some revelation for you, or someinsight into what's going on, I
(30:33):
can kind of stay up top. WhereasElizabeth's experience is a
little instead of top downpresence, versus it feels a
little bit more bottom up, whichis a thing in neurobiology and
stuff, top top down is more thecognition was we're bringing
science, you know, I barely knowanything about science, just the
stuff that the top down is kindof the cognitive way. And the
(30:56):
bottom up way of attuning tosomeone is the sensation way.
Yeah. And she is all aboutsensation. Like there's, in a
way like the, you know, the babyin her belly, which is what an
area that we talk a lot aboutwhen we talk about insight and
intuition. And gut is like, youknow, had a gut instinct.
Andy Withrow (31:20):
Yeah, was it that's, it's really interesting
to me now. Because my, my senseis like, those two can't be
separated. Your presence andinsight belong together insight
without presence seems reallyunhelpful. And presence without
insight might still be held.
Well, I guess they're bothhelpful. Yeah. But they're, but
they can maybe violate things ornot be as helpful as when
(31:42):
they're when they're heldtogether. Yeah. What you're
talking about? Yeah, that makesa lot of sense. And even the
concept thing about the conceptof blessing has everything to do
with presence. Yeah. theSpirit's presence in this case,
or God's presence, in namingblessing and naming are tied
together. Yeah. Which requiresinsight. Yeah. Yeah. So there's
(32:02):
some interesting things going onthere.
Vanessa Caruso (32:09):
Yeah, it feels a little abstract. To me. Still,
like even the word presence,it's such a popular word and
away and you're like, what doesit actually mean? Like, I just
want to be present to you andwrite what you know. What does
that look like? But I feel likeshe there is. There are clues
here. There's something aboutElizabeth's ability to both know
(32:35):
what's going on in her. Yeah,pay attention to another and
then Yeah, take that. Take thatstep of speaking, and naming.
You know, in the loud cry, likethat's pretty, she's pretty in
the moment, to exclaim with aloud cry. So that just made me
(32:55):
wonder, okay, what would it looklike to, to cultivate that? And
I think it's what we have talkedabout a lot already, it's kind
of the belief and practice,which this podcast is all about,
integrating the two. Because inorder to be present to other
people, we have to continue tolearn how to be present to
(33:18):
ourselves and present to God.
Like they, it all is one cloth,yeah. So to make space in our
lives and recognize that we needboth, we need like the outlet
and the expression of being witheach other, affirming one
another. Taking risks ofvulnerability, taking risks of,
of blessing. And then also thattime it takes to get to know in
(33:39):
our bodies, in our emotions, inour stories, what does what does
God look like and what does theHoly Spirit how does the Holy
Spirit express themselves in mylife? What did that feel like?
Like the people that were cut tothe heart you know, in Acts by
Peters preaching, maybe, youknow, it's like, there appears
(34:05):
to the harder cuts of the heartfeel similar to me to
Elizabeth's my belly leaped.
There's like this internalresonance with what is going on
in the outside world. Andlearning how to name that
recognize it cultivate it, thankGod for it feels like the work
(34:25):
of our kind of inner life.
Andy Withrow (34:28):
Yeah, yeah. It seems like a waking up. In some
ways, even going back tothinking of my conversation with
my friend about oh, I missedthat wonder or that sense of
wonder in the world or in life.
And just feeling our sensesdulled or grown a bit cynical,
or, or, or whatever. Yeah, justwait like, Oh, no awakening to
(34:52):
God at work. Yeah. In our livesin the spirit. work in our
lives? Yeah, like that. It'sgood. It's tied to with another
episode that we've done. By thetime this airs, I think will
(35:13):
have aired. But the idea ofbecause the previous one is, in
some ways, we're talking aboutbearing Christ. Like, literally,
Mary is literally bearing Christliterally. Right, but she
becomes this model for thechurch, this this symbol for us,
that we also bear Christ not inthe exact way that Mary did, but
(35:36):
in in a significant andmeaningful way. And that for
those who bear Christ, there isa blessing. Because of the
presence again, yeah. And so Iguess the question is, what does
it mean, we talked about thislast time in the series of
episodes of reading, but justthinking about what it means to
bear Christ, carry him with uswherever we go. And that can be
(35:59):
something that's done,consciously, and maybe even
unconsciously, it's like, whenMary was walking around for
those nine months, pregnant withChrist with Jesus. She wasn't
always constantly aware of him.
She probably often was, yeah.
But often was just going aboutlife. Yeah, but still bearing
(36:19):
Christ. And so is a helpfulimage for me of thinking about.
It's not all dependent on myefforts, or my consciousness.
That God is whether or not I'mthinking about him. Yeah, and
the object permanence that wehopefully learn as infants have
to relearn as adults for some ofthese things. That we can still
(36:43):
be bearers of Christ, regardlessof our awareness of it. And that
knowing or trusting that canhelp our awareness of it. So
it's not so dependent, not this.
I have to work so hard at myspirituality. Yeah. Not that
(37:04):
that's not necessarily likethere's good work to do there.
But that this is true.
Regardless of my awareness, allthat, yeah, I love that. And
your rest have to allow that forrest. I can rest in knowing that
I bear the marks in the presenceof Jesus with me as I go as the
(37:25):
Spirit's work in my life. IfI'm, you know, if I can, if I'm
a Christian, from my ultimateallegiance, signified by my
baptism, to Jesus is such, thenI'm going to trust that he was
with me, even when I'm goingabout my life, and that I bear
Christ's presence as I go. Mmhmm. And sometimes I have the
(37:47):
joy of remembering. And reigniting and awakening the
wonder of it and what thatmeans, and looking at being
awake, to two that are beingaware of that. And I think
that's where the some of thislanguage of Mary's song comes
into magnify the Lord Rejoice inthe Lord remember, our this
(38:08):
blessing this presence that goeswith us? And, and she doesn't
have a distinction between orcontroversy, a contradiction
between rejoicing in the Lordand fearing the Lord. Those two
her arm, they belong together.
Yeah. Join the Lord, fearsomebolt, or our make sense to her,
(38:34):
in her in her understanding ofwho God is. Wow, that's cool. I
think for me, that helps restoresome of the that wonder stuff
was so much bigger. Yeah, I getto be part of this story. It's
so much bigger than me. Yeah, itdoes not depend on me, thank
God. But I get to, I get toparticipate in it. And, and
(38:59):
hopefully, awaken more and moreand more to the story as we go.
Vanessa Caruso (39:06):
Oh, I love the idea of awakening to the reality
that Christ is with us andwithin us. And also that idea
that we don't have to like, pickChrist up like a backpack. And
if we forget to, we've beenwithout the backpack for three
months, you're kind of sayingit's not a backpack. Price isn't
(39:29):
a backpack there. God is withus, regardless, and sometimes we
have the joy of noticing that.
And then we go about our day orour week. So any ideas about
kind of the some of the apliqueapplication of these ideas?
We've we've mentioned some alongthe way, but like, what does
(39:53):
this look like?
Andy Withrow (39:56):
I think I mean, the thing that really jumps out
to me for all that stuff is justthe importance of our routines
and rhythms like, Do not forsakethe gathering of the saints of
God's people. Like you want to.
If you want to re instillwonder, then you have to have
some sort of rhythm and liturgyfor your life. Yeah. Have, as at
every level, you can these thesesymbols and markers that, that
(40:21):
bring you back into the story.
Yeah. From, from just being in ahabit of reading the stories,
and inhabit like hate language,you know, inhabiting the
stories, but, but living intothem, and doing that really
(40:44):
humble work of finding ourselvesin the stories and then seeing
the stories lived out in ourstory in our lives. And
participating in, in worshiptogether, where the symbols are,
are there of these stories? Imean, symbols from from baptism
(41:10):
with the, you know, we put thefont at the back of the churches
we enter in and some people liketo put their little finger in
the water and make the sign ofthe cross, like nothing magical
about it. I don't think exceptin the very broad sense of magic
that Louis or Chesterton mighttalk about, like, yeah, there is
magic here. But to, to going upfor for Eucharist, or communion,
(41:39):
and receiving the bread and thewine or the body in the blood,
to participating in prayers andthe songs to our own symbols we
might have around our house thatremind us of the larger story.
(42:00):
Could I mean could be anything?
Vanessa Caruso (42:02):
Yeah. Yeah, I love that.
Andy Withrow (42:07):
was just thinking out loud.
Vanessa Caruso (42:09):
That's where I go to initially, of course,
moment, maybe not, of course,but I just am so in line with
that, like, the rhythms androutines. And then also, what's
coming to mind is just that,that openness, like I thought
of, you know, the differencebetween if only, and what if,
(42:31):
like that, if only kind ofthinking that, that is so
tempting for me. Like if only wehad more money, or if only I had
more time, or if only thishappened or this didn't happen,
then I would be happy or readyor present, whatever whatever
(42:54):
the case may be. That just likenever, never ends. There's like
an infinite cycle to that kindof thinking. But the what if
feels so different, like what ifGod knows my limitations and the
limitations of my life? What ifGod knows our as a people in
(43:17):
this time and place in historyin the city knows our
limitations and is, is workingwithin them. And that posture
just feels so different kind ofwaking up in the morning and you
know, shuffling our way to ourlife with kind of a resignation,
(43:40):
what your friend was talkingabout, which I totally relate
with just kind of that likeokay, it's gonna be a busy
season or whatever the feelingis, the extended family got to
make choices about money justthat that different posture of
what what if what if the storyis open and the Spirit is at
(44:08):
work in my life
Andy Withrow (44:14):
yeah, in what if and also I think I think for me,
it's growing into a definitelyis,
Vanessa Caruso (44:28):
Oh, I like that.
Like
Andy Withrow (44:31):
the we talked about this, maybe an episode a
few episodes ago of the too goodto be true stuff, where it's
like, what if we had a goodfather in all of this? who
oversaw everything and was thehead of our house, you know, our
big household and, and promisedto take care of us and work all
(44:55):
things for the good in ourlives, even even if we have
trouble seeing it at times. Tohave that bigger narrative or
that bigger story of I know thatGod has me and to, to live into
that. But you're right. I mean,I think it has stages of, of, of
being open to the what if, andthen learning to live into the
(45:17):
definitely is that this is sogood. Yeah, this is so good.
Even, even not not living anunreality of there's great
tragedy and evil in our worldand sometimes often impacting
our lives. It's not ignoringthat or not mourning it or being
honest about it. But knowingthat there's a bigger story at
(45:40):
work, yeah, this stuff. I foundsomething I wrote down. Great.
That goes back to the beginning.
Where Mary's traveling, okay,okay, I didn't write the very,
very poor practicing. I didn'twrite the reference down of who
this is from, but as this ismost probably Hebron. Okay,
yeah. A city of the priests inScituate in the hill country of
(46:04):
Judea, about 25 miles south ofJerusalem, nearly 100. from
Nazareth. Wow. Such was theintense desire of Mary's mind to
visit and communicate with arelative Elizabeth, that she
undertook this long journey.
Vanessa Caruso (46:22):
That is long, yeah.
Andy Withrow (46:25):
long journey. And then just think about Mary's
song, and in Hannah's song, theoverlap there and the same
themes. And I just wrote thesethree things down from, I think,
from some theology book I wasthumbing around in. But there's
(46:48):
three disputes. In these songs,interesting to think about one
dispute in their song is thatpeople are hopelessly fated in
their circumstance, I understandthat one. Another one about
human autonomy can proceed as atonce. So it's the turning of
tables. So those in power likeare fine, no problem. Yeah. That
(47:12):
human autonomy, I'm going todefine my life or there's a
well, there's the way instanceof God. And thirdly, that
counter political power canresist the Lord. So these are
the three disputes of theirsongs, that they're pointing to
the evidence of what's happeningin their lives as data points
(47:32):
that resist or that mound to thetruth of, of God's victory. Wow,
that's pretty intense. That'spretty fun. Yeah. That's pretty
fun. And it's, it's a nice, it'sa nice reminder that our
spirituality doesn't just dependon us or that, that, that these
(47:54):
truths or ideas about who Godis, isn't just in our heads or
our hearts, that we get toparticipate with our heads and
our hearts into this largerthing that is out there. And
that is happening. Like theseare the song focuses on big
picture like political events,and, and rulers and those who
(48:15):
are in power and saying, No,that's all going to be turned
around. That's pretty radicalthrough what's happening in
Mary's womb. And through what'shappening as you and I go about
our days bearing Christ with us.
Vanessa Caruso (48:37):
Drop the mic. So I
Andy Withrow (48:38):
got my notes.
That's
Vanessa Caruso (48:41):
all I have to.
Andy Withrow (48:45):
Great happy happen. Yeah, everybody.
Vanessa Caruso (48:48):
Yeah, I feel a little bit like looking for the
reversals, you know, and likewhen you said, Mary, Mary, and
Hannah, have these data pointsfrom their own life data data,
is Canadian, your data point? Tothat kind of touch on these
(49:11):
conflicts are these claims. Andit makes me just want to look
for evidence of that. Yeah. Inthe world. Yeah. And it kind of
makes me want to write amagnifica or a song like using
hers as a template. And I don'tknow what I will say, but just
to try to get into that spacewhere I see what she's talking
(49:34):
about. Through my own eyes.
Blessing is the one who believesthat there would be a
fulfillment of those thingsspoken to her by the Holy One.
To him,
Andy Withrow (49:46):
there's a song we sing at the table. Everyone's
called blessing or blessing,receive the blessing of God. And
it's one of my favorite songsbecause it's just it's just kind
of that refrain.
Vanessa Caruso (49:57):
Sandra, isn't it?
Andy Withrow (49:58):
No, it's true. The beloved art sound Seattle. And
was really, really good. It'sactually it's Henry now and it's
just worth sitting down put tomusic.
Vanessa Caruso (50:09):
Wow. Maybe you should play at the end of this
podcast. Like their frame. Yeah,that's a good episode. I think I
don't you mean it's likereceive? receive,
Andy Withrow (50:18):
receive the blessing of God. Yeah that yeah
receive over and over again.
Yeah. And it's, I think becauseI'm trying to think of where as
we're kind of at the end andthink of practical stuff. Just
think of Mary and Elizabeth,just receiving and reflecting on
what's happened yeah. And thatrefrain at the end their
(50:41):
blessing is she who believedthat there would be a
fulfillment of what was spokento her from the Lord, like being
in a spot Mary being in the spotto receive what the what the
messenger of the Lord had totell her, which is probably why
she was selected. Like, thatkind of imagination. Yeah. And
that kind of availability,imagination, availability,
(51:02):
trust, and knowledge that theGod that I know is the God who
does this kind of stuff. Whoturns the tables, yes,
unexpected, who, who pulls therug out from under neath the
proud, it's too good not to betrue. It's too good not to be
true. And it's too good to betrue at the same time. And as a
posture for advent of justhaving some open hands, and
(51:27):
learning just to receive thewonder of the season, the wonder
of who God is in the story. Andto receive it in our lives.
What's the just sort of theimage I have loving the season,
take out where you're going todo and help me help me to be
present enough to see it and toreceive it.
Vanessa Caruso (51:51):
And to connect the dots to this is what I know
of you, like she does in hersong. Like this is actually very
characteristic. The God that Ihave read about, heard about and
know. Right.
Andy Withrow (52:08):
Thanks for now, so if my calculations are correct,
this is our last episode of2021.
Vanessa Caruso (52:14):
Oh, really?
Yeah. Wow.
Andy Withrow (52:16):
So we'll see you next year new year. We think
with some January
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