December 7, 2021 • 57 mins
This episode is the first Bear w/ Me episode ever recorded! But since we weren't ready to upload episodes at this time last year and it was an Advent theme, we sat on it. Until now!
Living on God Time
In this episode, we reflect on the Angel Gabriel's announcement to Mary and her surprising response in Luke chapter 1.
Part 1: "In the 6th Month" - Thinking in God Time - Kairos Time v. Chronos Time - 0:00
Part 2: "You will bear a Son" - How Does God's Kingdom Come? - 28:46
Part 3: "Let it be to me according to your Word" - How to Respond to God's Time, Kingdom & Presence - 42:18
Check out Vanessa's How to Advent Guide
Resources Mentioned:
Article: How Electric Light Changed the Night
Vanessa’s favourite books on reframing "time" as kairos time:
Liturgy of the Ordinary by Tish Harrison Warren: https://www.ivpress.com/liturgy-of-the-ordinary
Domestic Monastery by Ronald Rolheiser: https://paracletepress.com/products/domestic-monastery
Other resources to "keep time" more intentionally:
Bridgetown Church's Rule of Life Workbook: https://practicingtheway.org/unhurrying-with-a-rule-of-life/workbook
Vancouver's University Hill Congregation Christian Seasons Calendar: https://christiancalendar.squarespace.com/order
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Vanessa Caruso (00:00):
We also wanted to note a content morning for
this episode. As we are rootedin Advent time. And looking at
Mary's storyline in particular,we do discuss themes of
pregnancy, labor andchildbearing. So if you have an
unmet desire to have children orhave experienced infertility or
(00:24):
pregnancy loss, we invite you toproceed with care, or to save
this episode for a better timeor to skip it altogether. And
either way, know that we arethinking of you.
Andy Withrow (00:42):
Welcome to the bear with me podcasts on table
radio, where we aim to integratebelief and practice in the
Christian life.
All right, hi, welcome. I'mAndy. And I'm with Vanessa. Hi.
(01:04):
And we're here in the tablechurch studios. More or less
makeshift? And we're starting anew podcast. This is our first
one. If you couldn't tellepisode one. Yeah. And we're
going to try it out. So so thetitle of our podcast is
intentional. Please bear withus. And here we are. It's
Advent. Happy Advent.
Vanessa Caruso (01:25):
Admin. I love admin.
Andy Withrow (01:26):
Yeah, me too. I'm excited is a great time to start
a new podcast becausetechnically, to our point of
wanting to integrate belief andpractice, this is the new year.
Right? This is the time tostart. Yeah, new things. This is
our new beginnings. Yes, it
Vanessa Caruso (01:40):
is technically.
Andy Withrow (01:41):
So here we are.
With our new podcast, the newyear, new ideas were feel a bit
in over our head. But weshouldn't anyone can start
podcast. Yeah, yeah. Why not?
Us? Why not? Us? Right. If Annieand Vanessa can do it, you can
do it. That's true. Anything isto be learned here. So we had
we've been talking brieflyrecently about this new podcast
(02:05):
about what we want to what wewant to be and do and talk
about. And we've got a fewtopics we want to talk about
today. So let's jump in. Great.
I've been I've been gettingready for preparing for a sermon
in a couple weeks from now. It'sgoing to be the fourth Sunday
and haven't the last Sundaybefore Christmas. And my text is
(02:26):
from Luke's Gospel. And it's thescene where the angel Gabriel
comes to Mary and, and gives hersome big news, some announcement
news. And so I just want to talka little bit about this because
because as we've been talking inour neighborhood tables and some
(02:47):
of our gatherings here at thetable church, we've been talking
about some of these themes andideas, and we thought be fun to
kind of talk about it on ourpodcast. So basically, this
episode it's in, in Luke chapterone, the angel Gabriel has just
appeared to Zechariah in thetemple in the previous episode
with, with some news about abirth, that he announces the
(03:11):
birth of John the Baptist,Zechariah can't believe it. And
then, for this episode, when theangel is sent to marry, it
begins with these words, in thesixth month, the angel Gabriel
was sent from God to a city inGalilee named Nazareth, to a
virgin. And I found that reallyfascinating as I was going over
(03:36):
the the scene, because Luke is ahistorian, big time, he pays
attention. And he gives theseindicators of the precise time
and place that you that thesethings happen. He's very
concerned to communicate thesethings. And so he says things
like, in the year that Herod theTetrarch, was doing this or the
(03:58):
year of quiet when Quirinius wasgovernor, these things happen.
So he's helping people locateaccording to these big political
events, but here for this, maybethe biggest announcement of his
gospel, he's doing somethingdifferent, because that six
months is in reference toElizabeth's pregnancy. And so he
(04:22):
might as well have set in at theend of the second trimester, the
angel Gabriel was sent from Godas his total reorientation of
time away from the big picture,government stuff, that kings the
things that are happening, youknow, in the season, when Trump
was a lame duck, and we weregetting ready for Biden's
(04:44):
ascendancy to the throne, or, orwhatever, whatever the big news,
items or the day those how toorient our time. Luke is now
orienting us into it into God'stiming. And so that brought up
for Vanessa Earlier in someconversation around God's time
versus maybe the way that wenormally measure time, and tick
(05:06):
tock time. Yeah. As you'veshared with us before you
preached a sermon last year, youtalked a bit about this. And so
I just wanted to start us therein the Bible. It's called Kairos
time versus Kronos time. AndKronos time is the time that we
are most used to. It's that ticktock, what time is it? What time
(05:27):
have I set my alarm? In Kronostime is a different kind, or
sorry, Kairos. Time is adifferent kind of time. And can
you tell? Vanessa, can you tellus a little bit about the
difference between Carol's timeand tick tock time? Yes, please.
Vanessa Caruso (05:44):
Yeah, I loved finding out that there are these
different versions of time,because I've had such a
complicated relationship withtime, I feel like many of us,
maybe white people in the Westis really what I'm talking
about. Feel really burdened orpressured by time, at least I
(06:06):
do. Like feeling like it'ssomething I'm supposed to manage
or time are blocks in mycalendar that I'm supposed to,
like steward Well, and, and it'sreally easy to feel like I've
wasted time, or I'm losing time,or I just need more time in
order to do what I think I'msupposed to do in life. So it's
(06:27):
that it's crazy to me that Lukewas talking in trimester time,
like super imposing anothereconomy of time. I think I
always thought that just meantlike June, or whatever their
equivalent of like, the sixthmonth of the cycle of the year,
you know, like I never knew itwas it was related to a woman's
(06:50):
pregnancy time. So yeah, Chronostime to me is, is that that
alligator and Peter Pan with theclock around his neck? That just
always goes like, Tick? Tick?
Yeah. And it's just like, it'scoming to get you. And I
remember looking that up. Andthat alligator signifies in that
story, fate, which is how I'verelated with time, it's just
(07:13):
like, it's after you, it's goingto get you it's going to catch
up to you, you need more of it,you better resign yourself to
it, there's nothing you can doabout it. Kairos time is, is
pregnant time. It's it's wisdomto me, like the difference
between knowing stuff andwisdom. Wisdom has this element
of it's like a magical elementor an enchanted or something
(07:36):
element to it, where it's theright time. It's the fitting
time. I think it really meansopportunity. I think that might
be one of the definitions ofKairos is opportunity. So one of
the verses in Psalms that meansomething to me about Kairos
time is better is one day inyour courts than 1000.
(07:57):
Elsewhere. I remember singingthat at an even song when I
first started coming to thetable betters one day in your
courts than 1000. elsewhere. AndI thought, oh my gosh, what if
that's true, better is one hourwith God than 1000 I could do on
my own. Like then 1000 emails, Icould reply back, then 1000
(08:21):
penances I could do to try tomake up for the wrong thing that
I did, like better is one daywith the Holy Spirit trying to
discern something, then yearstrying to figure it out on my
own. That's how it kind of hasapplied to me. The idea of
Kairos time is that, yeah,there's this. There's this
(08:45):
element of spirit or wisdom thatactually redeems time it does.
It's just not math. It's not oneplus one equals two. If you do
this, then this happens, thenthis happens. It's like in God's
economy, there's thispossibility that God can redeem
time. God can create third wayswhere you thought there was just
(09:08):
a or b black or white. The HolySpirit can actually inspire a
third way that is better thanall the things I was striving I
feel like striving sorry I'mtalking so much that's good keep
going striving for me is Kronostime, this CH time. There's this
like element of trying to makestuff happen on my own. And it's
(09:30):
overwhelming and it can make mefeel bad and behind all the
time. And Kairos timecontinually says or invites me
to Cease striving and to getswept up in trust that God owns
time and God is doing somethingin God's time and I just get
(09:52):
swept up to it i i participatein it but I don't start it,
finish it. Make It happened ornot? Right?
Andy Withrow (10:02):
Yeah, that's the end even the idea of Chronos
time. It's I think ourrelationship has changed over
time. Thinking about even oureven the last few 100 years how
I mean, we didn't always haveclocks. At some point people
(10:25):
invented clocks, like we canmeasure time in new ways. Yeah.
And, and, and so humanity haschanged its relationship to that
Chronos. Time over time. Yes.
And to a point that we couldargue this point in the 21st
century to where it is. It'slike it's, it's a slave master
in a way that maybe it hasn'tbeen in previous epochs. Yes.
(10:47):
Right. And so there's thethere's a popular book out right
now called the real ruthlesselimination of hurry by John
Mark comer, he talks about, hetalks about this very thing,
like our relationship to thisChronos time has changed over
time, to a point to where it is,it is a striving, it is anxiety
producing, there is never enoughof it, despite what technology
(11:11):
promises, oh, it's going to giveyou more time. And then somehow
we have less of it because ofour technology, this, the
constant beeps of our phones andemail inboxes getting out of
control and all the rest. And sothat's fascinating to me. And
just the idea. John, Mark comerreferences an article on sleep
in his book? Yeah, I'll put itin the show notes. If you want
(11:34):
to click a link to it. It'sstill available online. But this
idea of I think they put theyhad a bunch of people come
together, they deprived them ofartificial light, and clocks,
and everything they would tell,you know, all they had was this,
you know, lightened day. Yeah.
And over time, their sleeppatterns reverted to well, they
(11:56):
think reverted to an 11 hoursleep period, no way, with
wakeup times in the middle ofthe night. Like they would sleep
for about four hours, they'dwake up for the watches of the
night, right for an hour or two,for quiet talking for maybe
reading by candlelight, for forfor whatever, whatever.
Reflecting Yeah, and then theygo back to sleep for a few
(12:16):
hours. And they get for formorning time. Wow. And there's
he cites this in the book, butthere's evidence also that
that's how ancient people usedto just live. David talks about
in the Psalms, I'll meditate youon you in the watches of the
night. And I read that afterreading that book in the sleep
study. I'm like, oh, is Davidjust talking about? Oh, yeah.
When I wake up in the middle thenight because I'm not going to
(12:39):
sleep for 12 hours. Yeah. Thisis what I'll do. And it's a
different pace of life than theconstant. Oh, now we can stay up
till 1011 midnight, get ourseven hours or whatever we need
think we need to get up orprobably too early. Yeah, so
that we can get our stuff done.
Yeah. And that's just the waythat the world has gone. And so
this idea that you're talkingabout this Kairos time is God
(13:01):
time, this pregnancy time istalking about living, engaging
on a different understanding ora different way of keeping time.
Yes, that is fascinating, andexhilarating, and exciting. But
what is it? Good
Vanessa Caruso (13:23):
question,
Andy Withrow (13:24):
what is it? And what in? How do we how do we
live into that time? I think ofeven just the section where
where the angel comes to marryand Elizabeth's already
pregnant. And, and Mary isgetting the announcement in
pregnancy as an image forkeeping time or or maybe as an
(13:45):
image for what we're talkingabout. I've never been pregnant.
I will never be pregnant. I youhave been? Yes. So you can speak
with a bit more authority here.
But that as an example, or maybeas a parable or an image for us
of what does that mean? How doeshow does pregnancy time work
different than tic tock time?
Vanessa Caruso (14:05):
Yeah, get on?
Well, I think this is related.
Something that came to mind forme, as he talked was St.
Benedict. And his. There's arule around the bell in St.
Benedict's rule. And it was Imean, now it's pretty common, I
think, in monastic places wherethis bell would ring at some
(14:30):
point in the day and it wouldsignal that it's time to move on
to the next thing. So there'slike work, study rest and prayer
or something, you know, sothere's like mopping the floors,
reading sacred texts, prayingand resting and eating. And so
when the bell would ring one ofthe rules was you had to stop
what you were doing immediately.
Even like you He even said notto like cross your T or dot your
(14:54):
eye. So there was this readinesswhen the bell rang. And he said,
or the author I read who talksabout him said, the idea was
that you move on to the nextthing, not because you want to,
but because it's time. So it'steaching this way of being and
living in the world where youtrust that there's enough time.
(15:15):
Like you're not it's not thecenter. You're not the center of
it all. That there's one
Andy Withrow (15:25):
time siding. Yeah, you're you're externalizing, the
decider? Yes. How you use yourtime who gets to decide that?
Yes.
Vanessa Caruso (15:33):
And there's something good for us. There's
something freeing in that frame.
And doing that, and pregnancy isis like that, like how you do
just want
Andy Withrow (15:41):
certain things happen. You gotta move, you
gotta do something differently.
Yeah,
Vanessa Caruso (15:45):
there's not so much decision fatigue, right? Do
I keep reading this letter? Do Istudy longer? Do I save dishes
for tomorrow, it's just the bellrings, and you move on. But the
worldview that you're investingin, in that is that God is in
charge of time, God knows whatthe world needs to thrive, God
(16:05):
knows what we need, as humancreatures created ones to
thrive. And so if we kind of areobedient or faithful to or
trusting of moving on, or ofletting things be done to us,
and responding to them, that'show we're formed or our
salvation comes from. It's notour salvation, but it's like a
(16:26):
means of grace, to let time bedone to us. Instead of being the
masters of time, does that makesense?
Andy Withrow (16:37):
It makes a lot of sense. It's. And it's something
that, that there's elements ofthat that long, that are really
long for us, the freedom to nothave to decide constantly, how
to allow someone greater andwiser or, or God in this case,
(16:59):
to determine, here's how, here'show you're to use your time. And
just be like, Okay, great. Idon't have I can give up. Me as
the decision maker for thosethings. And I can be free to be
more present in the moment,because I'm not constantly
thinking, Oh, what about this?
What about that? And just theway I don't think it's just me,
(17:21):
I think a lot of us live withthe To Do lists in our head. And
when am I going to get to this,I need to make, you know, to be
able to have some at least alevel of freedom from that to
say, this is the time I'm givenfor these things. That sounds
really great.
Vanessa Caruso (17:40):
I know, in practice is so complicated. I
mean, even a couple days ago, Ithink this was maybe two days
ago, I looked at the clock and Ihad an hour and 27 minutes left
before it was time to pick upLeo from school. And I felt so
(18:01):
many feelings because thatmorning, I had just been really
present. So I had longerconversations with neighbors
than I usually allow myself Iwas present to my husband. And
you know, like met a need forfiguring something out. Yeah. I
wasn't it didn't feel like I wasa slave to my to do list. I felt
(18:23):
really I felt like a human inthe world with Christ
consciousness, like, okay,there's stuff going on in the
world. And I just need to openmy eyes to it and respond to it
today. But in that moment, I wasI had a feeling of like, but now
what, like I have all this stuffI was going to do. And I only
have an hour and 27 minutes. ButI feel like Kairos time made me
(18:45):
think Hold on a second, likeGod, you know, that I only have
an hour and 27 minutes. What'syour What? What? How would you
use this time? Or if you wereme, or anything you want to help
me figure out about the best useof this time, like what on my to
do list doesn't need to happenright now. Even even switching
(19:11):
my mind around like, I wastedall this time, like being
present to other people. Tomaybe that's exactly a good day,
today. And maybe God's greatwith that too. And there's
freedom even in thinking Well,every day I have this desire to
do 20 minutes of centeringprayer. That's one of my
(19:33):
priorities like I in my rule oflife I have come up with if I'm
do nothing else today, I'm goingto do these two things. So I
hadn't done that yet. And Ithought, What if God's like,
Hey, this is not like I don'tknow. This isn't a roll. I just
talked about real but this is arelationship. I'm cool with you
(19:58):
not doing that today. Even evenfor me to have the thought that
God would be that I'd be able torelate with God about missing
that 20 minute time. That's apriority for me. And, and not
knowing how to use the rest ofmy time. I don't I don't have
(20:19):
any conclusions about that. Butit just felt new. And to not get
into like the Tick Tock To DoList zone right after what felt
like a lot of fruit of theSpirit. Yeah. In the previous
part of my day. Yeah.
Andy Withrow (20:35):
Yeah, it's it. I have, like, 10 questions. We
don't have time for me. Yeah,ironically. I mean, we do. And I
think the this may be our newpodcast will for this time to
come back and revisit thesethings. Yeah, I think this is a
big this. Yeah, time thing is abig one that I think is
important to both of us. Yeah.
But I'm wondering like, I thinkof, I think I have to there's
(20:57):
kind of two elements to this.
There's like, there's payingattention and recognizing the
time. And then there's acting,acting in the time, I think of
Jesus saying things like in thegospels, you know, pay
attention. Know the seasons,he's not talking about the Four
Seasons, he's talking about thesigns of the times pay
(21:19):
attention, you know, when a treeis in fruit, so also you need to
pay attention to what'shappening and act accordingly.
And so there's sort of that,that pay attention, he talks,
you know, watch and pray. Hetalks about time's up kingdom,
the kingdom of God is here.
Here's the season right now,this is what you should be
doing. And so there's thatelement of how do we, how do we
pay attention better attentionto the time? Yeah. And then how
(21:44):
do we keep Kairos time? Is thereany thoughts from you on that? I
mean, you've talked about prayercentering prayer. Now I have to
imagine when we think whenwatching and praying has to
there has to be an element ofslowing down and and being
mindful of God, pinging beingpresent to God who's always
(22:07):
present to us. Yeah. The ifthere's a problem of presence,
it's not. It's not from hisdirection. Now. It's our how to
how do we slow down so that wecan start paying attention to
this different kind of time?
Vanessa Caruso (22:21):
Yeah. Yeah, for me, the what I kind of learned
in spiritual direction training,as the basis for being present
is stop looking, listen, thatwas how my program kind of
framed it, having practicesaround stopping looking and
(22:41):
listening. So stopping beingsomething in a daily or at least
regular way of silence, whichfor me, setting a timer for 20
minutes for centering prayer isis just an exercise, it feels
like a microcosm of sacrificingmy presence, it feels like a
(23:05):
sacrifice of presence, like,there's so much I could be doing
right now, there's so much Icould be worrying about. But for
this 20 minutes, I'm just goingto be present to you. And that
is going to teach me somehow,over time, throughout the rest
of my day, to learn how to bepresent and pay attention. So
(23:27):
stopping is that looking, issome form of examine or
reflection regularly, where wewe stopped to look back and make
connect the dots between thingsthat help us keep time or wake
up or have hope, or payattention, and to do more of
those, and to strategize how todo less of the stuff that is not
(23:53):
good for us, like shopping forme, for clothing, being in a
mall, very few days. With thathelped me to keep time, Mary,
Mary like, because it just isnot a great environment. For me.
It does not bring me It bringsme more towards self
consciousness, rather thanChrist. In my world, of course,
(24:15):
you have to shop sometimes, butyou know, that's one of the
things on my list and thenlistening. So stopping looking
and listening, looking at somekind of reflection or examine.
And then listening is some formof coming to the Bible or for
season it might be you know,another book or something really
life giving book. And saying, Ithink there is actually
(24:39):
something the Holy Spirit wantsto say to me through this text,
and I'm gonna not just read itand check it off the list, but
I'm just gonna read a little bitof it and say, Okay, I'm
actually I'm open. Is thereanything about this that's alive
for me right now. So those arethe three basic practices To me
(25:00):
that helped me be alert and stoplooking listen has like an
alertness. Yeah, it's like stayalert stuffs happening. Look out
for the signs. Yeah, make sureyou're awake and like you have
your, your faculties engaged,
Andy Withrow (25:13):
right? Yeah, that's good. I think it's
helpful. There's some overlap. Ifeel I think, I feel the most. I
made the most present to God.
And I think I sense the voice ofGod speaking my life most most
recently when I'm when I'm in adiscipline of memorization of
(25:34):
Scripture. Yeah. There'ssomething about it that forces
me to do some of those thingslike to stop like, for when you
memorize scripture, it forcesyou to slow down. Yeah. Because
you just read through it andyou. You miss so much when I
have to memorize it. And I haveto memorize what preposition is
being used? What? Relativeclauses like, why, why in the
(25:55):
six month? What, wait a minute,that's the thing that forced me
to slow down, I would have nevernoticed that just reading
through it. Yeah, on my own,when I'm actually forced to slow
down, and I can recite it in myhead. While I'm in line at the
bank or laying on my bed andcan't sleep or whatever
situation I'm in. Then I startto ask, Well, why is why does
(26:15):
Luke say that? And I askedquestions I wouldn't ask. Yes.
And and that's, that's when?
Yeah, that's when things startto open up the Scripture start
to open up and if you're like,Oh, I think God is the Spirit of
God is actually opening bringingthem some of the significance of
(26:36):
this out for me cuz I'm slowingdown enough to pay attention.
And it becomes so rich.
Vanessa Caruso (26:42):
Andy, we should do a podcast on memorization, a
podcast on memorization, becauseI'm reading, I feel like there
is so much there. Yeah, get it.
I mean, to me, memorizingScripture is an example of
betters one day in your courtsthan 1000. Elsewhere. In the
sense that, like you said, whenyou least expect it. I mean,
(27:05):
you're right, I have momentswhile talking with someone or
walking for school pickup or inthe shower. And revelation comes
about a, a word in the passageor an insight comes, that to me,
communicates that we do not justlearn by reading, you know, like
(27:28):
that, that is so much how wethink we learn like, I'm going
to read this article, I'm goingto research this, I'm going to
listen to the sermon, and thenI'm going to know, in reality,
the way the Spirit works, or theway God wired us is to learn by
doing by living. So maybe weneeded to take a shower, while
(27:48):
you know reciting this passageor not even sometimes I'm not
even consciously reciting it.
And a connection is just made.
Yeah. That I could have done anexegesis on for three hours and
not seen it. Yeah, for sure. Imean,
Andy Withrow (28:04):
yeah, definitely.
Yeah. Yeah, that's, that's sorich. And I want to transition
now into and if I wish I had abell to transition us.
Vanessa Caruso (28:18):
Oh, my gosh, and we have to stop what we're,
yeah. That's kind of fun.
Andy Withrow (28:21):
Yeah. Although I'm just, I'm the decider in this
point. So yeah, it's time totransition. So maybe we should
do it. Yeah, I don't know. Idon't know. Okay, anyway. It's
(28:46):
an overlapping topic. It kind oftransitions, I think, naturally
is this idea of how God'skingdom comes? How does God work
in the world? And, and I thinkthat is, that's potent in the
same passage where the angelcomes to marry, and makes this
announcement. Because he's gonnasay, you are going to bet you
(29:07):
will conceive in your womb andyou will bear a son is going to
happen. And this is how theKingdom comes. Because this is
God with us that she's bearingshe's, she is bearing God in her
womb, and carrying God aroundwith her wherever she goes.
(29:27):
There's that scene in the nextepisode as she goes to visit her
relative Elizabeth. And when shecomes in the door, or what
happens, a jump in the belly.
Yeah, John jumps in her womb,she leaps and the spirit is
active there. Anyway. I thoughtthere's a lot of rich stuff here
for us to kind of just pokearound in the same kind of in
the same vein of living on God'stime and paying attention to
(29:50):
what does it look like to bediscerning to watch and pray to
live kind of when you're so I'vebeen told when you're praying
pregnant, you have to payattention to your body what's
happening? Your your more, youare attentive on a different
level, I guess. Yeah. And payingattention. And I think there's,
(30:10):
there's some parallels. I findit fascinating that this
episode, God's Kingdom is goingto come in full force. And it
begins with this word from theangel. Like this is Mary's first
introduction to the whole ideaand concept of what's happening,
(30:31):
how God is going to do thisgreat reversals. It's so potent
in Mary and she feels it sostrongly. She's got she sings a
whole song about it. In thecalled the Magnificat in the
next in the next episode withwith her cousin, Elizabeth or
her relative Elizabeth. But itjust begins with a word. And
(30:53):
it's, it's small, it's seeminglyinvisible. It's just an
announcement. And it parallelsYou will conceive in your womb,
no one's gonna notice that, MaryNow you're going to notice that
in the first instance, it's justgoing to happen, it's going to
be not noticeable. This is howGod can't God's Kingdom begins
(31:13):
and it reminded me of all ofJesus parables, the mustard seed
like you can't see it. Saltinestone, yes, yeast in the in the,
in the dough, treasure in afield treasure and hidden in a
field. There's the the for theparable of the forest soils with
the seeds. And this one this oneis it looks like complete
failure, nothing's coming up.
(31:34):
And then the last one is anexplosion that's like way bigger
than that make more than makesup for all the last seeds. This
is the nature and so you havethe startup, here's the word of
the angel, you're going toconceive and you're going to
bear a sign, it's gonna lookinsignificant. We know how that
story goes. No one's recognizinghim, except people who have
inside information. But guesswhat? He's gonna be given the
(31:57):
house of his father David, he'sgonna rule over the house of
Jacob forever. His kingdom willhave no end like this is this is
it? This is the new creation.
This is what the prophets haveforetold. This is the big thing
going in action right now.
seemingly invisible, seeminglynothing. And you're going to
(32:18):
bear it in your body, Mary,you're going to carry this
around for nine months, you'regoing to give birth to this one.
You're going to raise this onefrom a baby. And that's it.
That's the kingdom. Wow.
And it's it's, it's not a oneoff. I mean, this is how God
works. You have Hannah, you'vegot Sarah in the Old Testament
(32:39):
story who's old and barren. Waypast age. You've got Rachel, in
the old story, you've gotElizabeth now. So this like God
loves this image of barrenness,and then and then making
something fertile out of it.
You're right. He loves it. Heloves the the seeming
invisibility or, or failure, theapparent failure of the kingdom.
(33:06):
And then it just being thisresurrection, this explosion
that nobody saw coming. Wow,loves to work that way. And so
that's challenging, I think forus, because that takes practice
and training to learn to payattention on that level. And to
take the things that lookinvisible, and impotent and
(33:28):
barren, and like a failure andsay, God, I think you're you're
doing something here. You'reyou're at work here.
Vanessa Caruso (33:44):
Yeah, it's really, it's so beautiful. That
to think of God loving like,those are God's favorite movies
or stories. Something I, whenyou were talking, I thought,
Okay, what, what is that seed?
Like, what is that little thingthat begins the big thing? And
(34:07):
it makes me it makes me thinkthat it's, I mean, what maybe
this is probably another sectionyou have, but um, it's Mary's
saying, yes. It's being open towhat God might do, and actually
consenting to it, even though wedon't know what it's gonna fully
(34:30):
look like. And just in dailylife. What I feel like that
means to me is that prayer thatI get to it feels like a really
treasured prayer that I get to acouple times a year where I say,
I realized something that's kindof keeping me from living the
(34:51):
way I want to live or that God,how God wants me to live. And I
finally come to a place to say,Okay, I am open to you
addressing this pattern in me,or you doing something new was
with a barren area of life, adead dream, a ride off the 11th
(35:11):
hour for closure on this part ofmy future, something like that.
And so to me that seed is the,the willingness to be open to
God and to consent to say, Yes,I give you access to me to do
what you want to do in thisarea, even though I'm scared to
(35:34):
look at it, or I'm scared toface it or admit it. Like now
I'm remembering. I did somethingwhen I was like 2425, or
something like that. I didn'ttell anybody about it for a long
time. And it was not good. EvenI didn't even say that I said
not good. And I had so moving toVictoria. So this is like 15
(35:57):
years later, I had this likevery strong feeling that I
really wanted to tell my familyabout it, like kind of come
clean. I had already talkedabout it with my husband,
therapists, a couple closefriends. But I took a long time,
like something that I wasashamed of. And I remember it
just crossing my mind one day,you know, you can't make this
(36:19):
stuff happen, where I'm like,No, I would never I could never
tell them. You know what I mean?
Like, that'd be so awkward. Howwould I bring it up? Just like,
nope, not happening. And then assoon as that comes, you're like,
now I'm kind of open to it. I'mkind of so it's it's that kind
of prayer like, god? Is thissomething you? Is this for me?
(36:41):
Like, is this would this befreedom or growth or healing or
something? If it is, I'm open toit. I do not want to do it. But
I'm open to it. And then like amonth later, God always answers
that prayer. There's like, Godwill make away into something
big that if I look back, I wouldhave said, No way I wouldn't
have done that I wouldn't havehad a child, or I would but you
(37:03):
know what I mean, you're like ifI knew this, but it's like this
initial openness. And then Godopens doors and makes away for
for the kingdom of heaven, likethe good stuff, the economy of
God, the grace, and the peace.
And I did end up telling myfamily and it was a great
conversation. And I cried, andthey laughed and made fun of me.
(37:25):
And it was really healing. Andit was only because the door I
pass the door and there was acreek in it. And then I was
like, I just want to keepwalking. But for some reason I
was like, I am open. If you knowyeah, now it's in the balls in
your court ish.
Andy Withrow (37:44):
Yeah. Yeah, I think that is a great image of
our participation. With like,like Mary here, the
participation with the word.
Like there's certainly there's,there's, yeah, two things here,
you've got the word is the seed.
On the one hand, Jesus makes usexplicit, like in his in his
parables, right. And then Butthen you've also got the kinds
(38:07):
of, in that case, maybe thekinds of soil like the not being
choked by anxieties not beingoverly burdened, or, or your
whole life is sort of orientedaround even just what we're
talking about with the Cronustime like the the constant
striving and anxiety likethere's no space or no room for
(38:28):
God's word to actually take rootand take hold and actually birth
something in us as God bearerslike like Mary is. And and I
think that's helpful becausebecause you've got these. You've
got these images of that Godovercomes you got images of
(38:50):
barrenness, that he makes thebarren fertile, you've got the
images of exile, which is thisestrangement from God, that God
overcomes and says, I will bewith my people, and they will be
with me. You've got you've gotthis problem of death. That
(39:10):
looks like from our point ofview, has the final word over
anything and everything we do,and God saying, Nope, I'm going
to push beyond death. Yeah, leadyou out of it, these big picture
things. But in the meantime, ifwe don't have our bearings of
okay, well, what God What areyou up to? Then? Then it's one
thing to be open, like, Okay,God can do anything. But God,
(39:30):
what are you actually doing?
Yeah, because not every bear inperson gets to have a child.
Right. And that's something tomourn. Yeah. But some do. And
those are those are. Those arepart of the stories. Yeah. And
so, being open, and having animagination like Mary does here.
Seems like she's formed aroundthe word to like, yeah, she's
(39:51):
not surprised. I mean, I'm sureshe was surprised. Yeah, but
she's not scandalized that shewas chosen. Yeah, like Zechariah
can't believe like Zechariah hasa poor showing in front of
Gabriel. Yeah, go back to theprevious episode. You got a lot
of these encounters with angelsor with God or where people
they're not. They're notprepared. Like Mary appears to
(40:16):
be here. Let it be according toyour word. I'm serving the Lord.
Like she's not scandalized.
Like, oh, yeah, this seems likesomething God would do. Right.
She has a logistical question.
One question. Well, how how willthis be since I'm a virgin? And
then Gabrielle answers that thisis how great sign me up? Ready?
(40:39):
Ready to go. And and I I thinkthat's a testament to her. Her
ability to her paying attention.
Yeah. Knowing what God is likefrom his self disclosure from
from his words. And I thinkthat's a clue for us. Because we
(41:00):
have the same problems we've gotwe struggle with estrangement or
distance from god yeah, like howwho got where are you? Where are
you in my life? How are youworking there's no shortage of
depression there's no shortageof despair thing like you're
just going through life withouthope without a sense of a future
(41:20):
so we need all the same kinds ofthings that Mary needed and that
that the people have heard thereIsrael in her time needed a
whole world needed and and sothe ability or the challenge I
guess for us to figure out okay,how do we how do we slow down
and pay attention? Learn to payattention in that God timing and
(41:49):
sort of turn down the volume onthe KRONOS timing. And yeah,
live live. Live in that way towhere we can we can have that
kind of response.
Vanessa Caruso (42:01):
Yeah. So inspiring.
Andy Withrow (42:19):
So Arcade Fire, one of my favorite bands, okay.
One of my favorite albums of alltime, the suburbs. They've got
this song that I thinkencapsulates perfectly the idea
of Kronos time. It's calledModern man. You haven't listened
to now. Come on. Anyway, checkit out. Okay. But it's, it talks
(42:42):
about or it sings about thewaiting in line for a number,
but you don't understand like amodern man, this idea of how how
the way that we engage with thismodern age and the way we engage
with time, this tick tock time,deprives us of meaning and
significance. And even ourhumanity, it's kind of the major
(43:05):
theme of the songs really,really potent, really great.
Wow. Anyway, we've been talkingabout this about Chronos. Time
and Kairos. Time, aboutpregnancy time, about what does
it mean to bear God with us orbear the work of His kingdom?
And carry it around with us? Wedon't really get into that.
That'd be me. Yeah, for nexttime. Yeah. What does it mean to
(43:26):
be a god bearer in ourneighborhood? That's a pretty
big idea.
Vanessa Caruso (43:29):
Write that down.
Andy Withrow (43:31):
Write it down, right. Next. That's great. We
already got, like, three, Iknow. But what does it mean to
live in Kairos time, I want toalways and I would like to end
our times with trying to thinkof practical stuff. And we've
(43:53):
already given some of that youtalk about stop, look. And
listen, I talked aboutmemorization of Scripture as as
a means of prayer and beingpresent to, to God's God through
being present to his words. Butif we could spend a bit more
time on how do we respond toGod's time in God's kingdom and
God's presence? Yeah. And, andspecifically, I can anticipate
(44:15):
in my own heart and I cananticipate in someone who might
be listening to this podcastkeep it how do you not live in
Chronos time and we can't wecan't not live in that time. I
still have to, I think respondto some of my emails. I still
have to punch in to my you know,I have to be at work on time.
You know? Can I be any good? MyOh, sorry, boss. I'm moving on.
(44:37):
Chill out. Right.
Vanessa Caruso (44:38):
You are my boss.
So maybe I could.
Andy Withrow (44:40):
Yeah, you might be able to get away with it. But
But I can imagine that could bea stretch further. So what does
it mean it? It might not it'sprobably not an either or it's
probably you can't escapeChromeless time that's just the
way it is. But it doesn't meanhow do we have strategies for
for paying attention even in themidst of a world around us that
(45:00):
is addicted to hurry. Yeah. Andaddicted to productivity,
productivity. Functionally,we're you know, we're just we're
stuck with seems like we'restuck there and maybe even as a
culture as a societyparticularly bad at getting
unstuck and thinking in theseother terms. So overdue. Yeah.
(45:24):
Got it.
Vanessa Caruso (45:28):
Yeah, I there's this First and Second Peter, I
forget what chapter but it sayssomething like, regard the
slowness of the Lord, as oursalvation. I think some
translations say patience,regard the patience of the Lord
or the slowness. And to me, thatis an encouragement, often to
(45:51):
think, Okay things the monotonyof daily life, and how much we
do have to respond to emails anddo the dishes again, and go to
work and take showers and likethere's just so much a part of
daily life that is unavoidable.
But I am choosing to believethat I can regard all that stuff
(46:13):
what seems slow or long ormonotonous, the KRONOS The Tick
tock, as a means of grace for melike that God doesn't think it's
not good. Like God thinks it'sgood for me that the sun rises
every 24 hours, and that there'sa new day, and that there's more
dishes to be done and that I'm,I'm embodied like I'm restricted
(46:36):
to this body. And that duringthe winter here, it's dark by
4:45pm. Like, instead of beingscandalized, by those things,
like you said, Mary wasn't? Whatdoes it mean to embrace some of
the rhythms God has given to usand in the world, through our
(46:57):
bodies, through the 24 hour day,through the invitation to take
one of those days and resistthrough Sabbath, you know, to
take some time each day, tie thelittle bit of our time each day
and resist that productivitytick tock mindset and say, I am
(47:18):
going to pray with this time.
And then the rest of the day, Iam going to be like a monk who
goes about the work that isbefore me at this life stage.
And it's always going to changebut I'm going to regard the
slowness of this endeavor calledbeing human as salvation I'm
(47:42):
going to trust that God issaving me and the world in God's
time as I am a faithful stewardto to what's in front of me.
Yeah, for this time, you use
Andy Withrow (47:55):
the word resist and it made me think that this
is this is like a this is abattle like there's there's work
to this pushing against just themomentum. Yeah. Of Life around
us. Yeah. And and I use the wordaddiction earlier because it
does feel like that to me, metoo. I get addicted to hurry
addicted to all the patterns offilling up every moment with
(48:22):
with something that has to feelrelevant to me. Yeah. Authentic,
authentic, or I have to selfactualize or have to get all my
to do list done, and then I'llfeel better. And then all this
stuff, which hardly ever any ofit happens. Yeah, but it's this
constant striving and toactually to do the hard work of
forming patterns of resistancethat are day in and day out.
(48:43):
That's a that's the thing. And Ithink it's I think it's hard for
most of us. Yes, very hard formost of us.
Vanessa Caruso (48:53):
i Yeah, it's hard on so many levels. One of
them is that there is somethingcounterintuitive to it, like
even I mean I I'm a spiritualdirector, I meet with people to
like help them listen and lookand STOP, STOP LOOKING listen on
their with their lives, youknow, an hour a month. And yet
(49:15):
it's still hard for me. Everythird day, I have to remind
myself, why it's good to spend30 minutes, we're talking less
than a 10th of my day, the hoursI'm given in a day to just push
everything aside and show up toGod in a quiet room. And if I
(49:37):
don't have a quiet room,wherever I am in the car before
I go to something else. And justto show up, it's I have to
remind myself every couple days,like there this is good to do
because it does not feel like agood use of time. That's like my
main. My main struggle is thisis this is a waste of time.
Andy Withrow (49:56):
Yeah, it looks like it's invisible
unnoticeable. Exactlyineffective. Yes. And a failure.
Yes.
Vanessa Caruso (50:07):
Much less going to church and like participating
in the liturgical calendartogether. Like I was just having
a conversation about Advent witha couple people and one person
was like, He already came. Like,I don't really get it. Does
everybody else know that? Youknow what it means Guys look,
yeah. I don't have to break itto you. But like, what are we
(50:30):
doing? There's a lot of churchy.
I love all that churchy languageabout waiting and stuff. But he
was like, I don't I literallydon't get it, because it already
happened. Yeah. So there'ssomething counterintuitive about
choosing to reenact this cycle,trusting that in the church
calendar, there is a time tofeast and a time too fast a time
(50:52):
to wait. And a time tocelebrate.
Andy Withrow (50:56):
I think the church calendar helps remind us that
that is that this isn't just Imean, Mary is unique in that she
physically carried the Son ofGod, yeah, her womb, but that
there's something in here for usto as the church as a community
and as individuals that God,this is how God is in the world.
This is how his kingdom comes inus. And that there is something
(51:18):
that we get to do in solidaritywith Mary, in terms of, again,
getting to that topic for nexttime, or whenever we're gonna
get to it being being God bearsin that way. Yeah. And yeah, so
you mentioned the churchcalendar, that is one concrete
strategic way to mark time in adifferent way. Think about what
(51:43):
is at what is the season. Adventreminds us to do what it reminds
us to wait and anticipate andthink about pregnancy. Think
about, think about the Kairostime as we've been talking
about, think about anticipation.
Think about is, is God doingsomething in me? That seems
(52:04):
impossible? Because that's thekind of things that God does.
Literally, like, yeah, that'sGabriel's saying, for nothing
will be impossible for him.
Like, this is like this is hiswork. Yeah. And he's like,
great. Like for us to learn howto do that with Mary. Pay
(52:25):
attention to his word, and payattention to what's in front of
us. It's helpful. You mentioned30 minutes, maybe a good place
to start. For some of us. Yeah.
Who don't have a habit? Yeah. 30minutes of slowing down.
Vanessa Caruso (52:44):
Yeah. And key for that, for me, is deciding
that 95% of the success of that30 minutes, is just by doing it
showing up just showing up.
Yeah. Because if I start toevaluate the 30 minute sessions,
as like, that one was reallygood. I cried. I had a
(53:06):
revelation. I have directionfrom my day. I feel good.
Andy Withrow (53:12):
Real came to me.
Yeah. Told me what was going on.
Vanessa Caruso (53:15):
Yes. There are days that are feeling chanted.
Yeah. And then but that's aslave master in a way because
it's this kind of burden or thisexpectation to have that.
Andy Withrow (53:26):
Imagine how many how many days Mary had before?
Vanessa Caruso (53:31):
Yes.
Andy Withrow (53:32):
Were Gabriel didn't show up. Yeah. And
absolutely nothing or seemingconsequence. Yeah, happened. And
yet she was prepared when hedid. And you could tell there's
there's hints all over thatepisode that she was prepared.
She had the right mindset. Shehad an imagination for what God
was doing. Yeah. In her life.
Thanks for a lot of us in our,in our, our setting struggle to
(53:54):
have that kind of imagination.
Yeah. And maybe beginning toslow down and open ourselves up
a bit more will be to do thathard, slow work. That might not
seem super fruitful in themoment might seem like all the
things I've been talking aboutinvisible. Yeah. unproductive,
(54:16):
fruitless waste of time. Yeah.
Vanessa Caruso (54:23):
And even a starting point before the 30
minutes, because I feel likethat's so on every podcast right
now. You know, everyone, noteveryone, it just that's a big
thing, our habits and how we useour time. Yeah. And that can
just feel at certain times in mylife that can just feel like I'm
(54:43):
not there. I don't even know howto tell you how 30 minutes is
not gonna happen right now.
Because I'm just, that's not inmy realm of possibilities. So
even the prayer before that tome, is that one I want to want
to pay attention. I don't yetyeah, I'm too overwhelmed. I'm
too anxious. I'm too angry atthis situation in my life or
(55:07):
this unmet thing, but I at leastwill pray the prayer. I want to
want to pay attention. And thenthrow that ball back to God. And
and see see what kind ofconversation or what happens
when we actually give the spiritaccess to do to do more in us.
It's good. Yeah, I like it.
(55:36):
Well, yeah, that was fun. Thatwas fun.
Andy Withrow (55:38):
I think we should do this again. Metis was sort of
an experiment. Yeah. We weren'tlike sure if this was a good
day, but I had fun. So even ifwe have like zero listeners,
yeah. Or if it's like just ourspouses, or just us re listening
to what we said. Let's just keepdoing
Vanessa Caruso (55:51):
I mean, yeah.
And
Andy Withrow (55:55):
yeah, okay. Well, thanks. Thanks, Vanessa. Thanks.
Thanks for whoever's listening.
On the other end of this gladyou could join us. If you like
what you hear, or if you've gotideas for future shows, just
email us at Bear with me attable church.ca. See, I've
already got the email. Amazing.
Just came up with the title orthe show.
Vanessa Caruso (56:17):
Did you say bear with me or bear with us? Bear
with me? Okay.
Andy Withrow (56:21):
Bear with me.
Right. Yeah, I think we're stillit's still. We're still working
out the time. We think it's bearwith me. Yeah. Bear with me at
table church.ca. Yeah, check outthe show notes for links, and
book recommendations, oranything else we might come up
with. And we'll see you nexttime. Thanks, everybody.
We also wanted to note a content morning for
this episode. As we are rootedin Advent time. And looking at
Mary's storyline in particular,we do discuss themes of
pregnancy, labor andchildbearing. So if you have an
unmet desire to have children orhave experienced infertility or
(00:24):
pregnancy loss, we invite you toproceed with care, or to save
this episode for a better timeor to skip it altogether. And
either way, know that we arethinking of you.
Andy Withrow (00:42):
Welcome to the bear with me podcasts on table
radio, where we aim to integratebelief and practice in the
Christian life.
All right, hi, welcome. I'mAndy. And I'm with Vanessa. Hi.
(01:04):
And we're here in the tablechurch studios. More or less
makeshift? And we're starting anew podcast. This is our first
one. If you couldn't tellepisode one. Yeah. And we're
going to try it out. So so thetitle of our podcast is
intentional. Please bear withus. And here we are. It's
Advent. Happy Advent.
Vanessa Caruso (01:25):
Admin. I love admin.
Andy Withrow (01:26):
Yeah, me too. I'm excited is a great time to start
a new podcast becausetechnically, to our point of
wanting to integrate belief andpractice, this is the new year.
Right? This is the time tostart. Yeah, new things. This is
our new beginnings. Yes, it
Vanessa Caruso (01:40):
is technically.
Andy Withrow (01:41):
So here we are.
With our new podcast, the newyear, new ideas were feel a bit
in over our head. But weshouldn't anyone can start
podcast. Yeah, yeah. Why not?
Us? Why not? Us? Right. If Annieand Vanessa can do it, you can
do it. That's true. Anything isto be learned here. So we had
we've been talking brieflyrecently about this new podcast
(02:05):
about what we want to what wewant to be and do and talk
about. And we've got a fewtopics we want to talk about
today. So let's jump in. Great.
I've been I've been gettingready for preparing for a sermon
in a couple weeks from now. It'sgoing to be the fourth Sunday
and haven't the last Sundaybefore Christmas. And my text is
(02:26):
from Luke's Gospel. And it's thescene where the angel Gabriel
comes to Mary and, and gives hersome big news, some announcement
news. And so I just want to talka little bit about this because
because as we've been talking inour neighborhood tables and some
(02:47):
of our gatherings here at thetable church, we've been talking
about some of these themes andideas, and we thought be fun to
kind of talk about it on ourpodcast. So basically, this
episode it's in, in Luke chapterone, the angel Gabriel has just
appeared to Zechariah in thetemple in the previous episode
with, with some news about abirth, that he announces the
(03:11):
birth of John the Baptist,Zechariah can't believe it. And
then, for this episode, when theangel is sent to marry, it
begins with these words, in thesixth month, the angel Gabriel
was sent from God to a city inGalilee named Nazareth, to a
virgin. And I found that reallyfascinating as I was going over
(03:36):
the the scene, because Luke is ahistorian, big time, he pays
attention. And he gives theseindicators of the precise time
and place that you that thesethings happen. He's very
concerned to communicate thesethings. And so he says things
like, in the year that Herod theTetrarch, was doing this or the
(03:58):
year of quiet when Quirinius wasgovernor, these things happen.
So he's helping people locateaccording to these big political
events, but here for this, maybethe biggest announcement of his
gospel, he's doing somethingdifferent, because that six
months is in reference toElizabeth's pregnancy. And so he
(04:22):
might as well have set in at theend of the second trimester, the
angel Gabriel was sent from Godas his total reorientation of
time away from the big picture,government stuff, that kings the
things that are happening, youknow, in the season, when Trump
was a lame duck, and we weregetting ready for Biden's
(04:44):
ascendancy to the throne, or, orwhatever, whatever the big news,
items or the day those how toorient our time. Luke is now
orienting us into it into God'stiming. And so that brought up
for Vanessa Earlier in someconversation around God's time
versus maybe the way that wenormally measure time, and tick
(05:06):
tock time. Yeah. As you'veshared with us before you
preached a sermon last year, youtalked a bit about this. And so
I just wanted to start us therein the Bible. It's called Kairos
time versus Kronos time. AndKronos time is the time that we
are most used to. It's that ticktock, what time is it? What time
(05:27):
have I set my alarm? In Kronostime is a different kind, or
sorry, Kairos. Time is adifferent kind of time. And can
you tell? Vanessa, can you tellus a little bit about the
difference between Carol's timeand tick tock time? Yes, please.
Vanessa Caruso (05:44):
Yeah, I loved finding out that there are these
different versions of time,because I've had such a
complicated relationship withtime, I feel like many of us,
maybe white people in the Westis really what I'm talking
about. Feel really burdened orpressured by time, at least I
(06:06):
do. Like feeling like it'ssomething I'm supposed to manage
or time are blocks in mycalendar that I'm supposed to,
like steward Well, and, and it'sreally easy to feel like I've
wasted time, or I'm losing time,or I just need more time in
order to do what I think I'msupposed to do in life. So it's
(06:27):
that it's crazy to me that Lukewas talking in trimester time,
like super imposing anothereconomy of time. I think I
always thought that just meantlike June, or whatever their
equivalent of like, the sixthmonth of the cycle of the year,
you know, like I never knew itwas it was related to a woman's
(06:50):
pregnancy time. So yeah, Chronostime to me is, is that that
alligator and Peter Pan with theclock around his neck? That just
always goes like, Tick? Tick?
Yeah. And it's just like, it'scoming to get you. And I
remember looking that up. Andthat alligator signifies in that
story, fate, which is how I'verelated with time, it's just
(07:13):
like, it's after you, it's goingto get you it's going to catch
up to you, you need more of it,you better resign yourself to
it, there's nothing you can doabout it. Kairos time is, is
pregnant time. It's it's wisdomto me, like the difference
between knowing stuff andwisdom. Wisdom has this element
of it's like a magical elementor an enchanted or something
(07:36):
element to it, where it's theright time. It's the fitting
time. I think it really meansopportunity. I think that might
be one of the definitions ofKairos is opportunity. So one of
the verses in Psalms that meansomething to me about Kairos
time is better is one day inyour courts than 1000.
(07:57):
Elsewhere. I remember singingthat at an even song when I
first started coming to thetable betters one day in your
courts than 1000. elsewhere. AndI thought, oh my gosh, what if
that's true, better is one hourwith God than 1000 I could do on
my own. Like then 1000 emails, Icould reply back, then 1000
(08:21):
penances I could do to try tomake up for the wrong thing that
I did, like better is one daywith the Holy Spirit trying to
discern something, then yearstrying to figure it out on my
own. That's how it kind of hasapplied to me. The idea of
Kairos time is that, yeah,there's this. There's this
(08:45):
element of spirit or wisdom thatactually redeems time it does.
It's just not math. It's not oneplus one equals two. If you do
this, then this happens, thenthis happens. It's like in God's
economy, there's thispossibility that God can redeem
time. God can create third wayswhere you thought there was just
(09:08):
a or b black or white. The HolySpirit can actually inspire a
third way that is better thanall the things I was striving I
feel like striving sorry I'mtalking so much that's good keep
going striving for me is Kronostime, this CH time. There's this
like element of trying to makestuff happen on my own. And it's
(09:30):
overwhelming and it can make mefeel bad and behind all the
time. And Kairos timecontinually says or invites me
to Cease striving and to getswept up in trust that God owns
time and God is doing somethingin God's time and I just get
(09:52):
swept up to it i i participatein it but I don't start it,
finish it. Make It happened ornot? Right?
Andy Withrow (10:02):
Yeah, that's the end even the idea of Chronos
time. It's I think ourrelationship has changed over
time. Thinking about even oureven the last few 100 years how
I mean, we didn't always haveclocks. At some point people
(10:25):
invented clocks, like we canmeasure time in new ways. Yeah.
And, and, and so humanity haschanged its relationship to that
Chronos. Time over time. Yes.
And to a point that we couldargue this point in the 21st
century to where it is. It'slike it's, it's a slave master
in a way that maybe it hasn'tbeen in previous epochs. Yes.
(10:47):
Right. And so there's thethere's a popular book out right
now called the real ruthlesselimination of hurry by John
Mark comer, he talks about, hetalks about this very thing,
like our relationship to thisChronos time has changed over
time, to a point to where it is,it is a striving, it is anxiety
producing, there is never enoughof it, despite what technology
(11:11):
promises, oh, it's going to giveyou more time. And then somehow
we have less of it because ofour technology, this, the
constant beeps of our phones andemail inboxes getting out of
control and all the rest. And sothat's fascinating to me. And
just the idea. John, Mark comerreferences an article on sleep
in his book? Yeah, I'll put itin the show notes. If you want
(11:34):
to click a link to it. It'sstill available online. But this
idea of I think they put theyhad a bunch of people come
together, they deprived them ofartificial light, and clocks,
and everything they would tell,you know, all they had was this,
you know, lightened day. Yeah.
And over time, their sleeppatterns reverted to well, they
(11:56):
think reverted to an 11 hoursleep period, no way, with
wakeup times in the middle ofthe night. Like they would sleep
for about four hours, they'dwake up for the watches of the
night, right for an hour or two,for quiet talking for maybe
reading by candlelight, for forfor whatever, whatever.
Reflecting Yeah, and then theygo back to sleep for a few
(12:16):
hours. And they get for formorning time. Wow. And there's
he cites this in the book, butthere's evidence also that
that's how ancient people usedto just live. David talks about
in the Psalms, I'll meditate youon you in the watches of the
night. And I read that afterreading that book in the sleep
study. I'm like, oh, is Davidjust talking about? Oh, yeah.
When I wake up in the middle thenight because I'm not going to
(12:39):
sleep for 12 hours. Yeah. Thisis what I'll do. And it's a
different pace of life than theconstant. Oh, now we can stay up
till 1011 midnight, get ourseven hours or whatever we need
think we need to get up orprobably too early. Yeah, so
that we can get our stuff done.
Yeah. And that's just the waythat the world has gone. And so
this idea that you're talkingabout this Kairos time is God
(13:01):
time, this pregnancy time istalking about living, engaging
on a different understanding ora different way of keeping time.
Yes, that is fascinating, andexhilarating, and exciting. But
what is it? Good
Vanessa Caruso (13:23):
question,
Andy Withrow (13:24):
what is it? And what in? How do we how do we
live into that time? I think ofeven just the section where
where the angel comes to marryand Elizabeth's already
pregnant. And, and Mary isgetting the announcement in
pregnancy as an image forkeeping time or or maybe as an
(13:45):
image for what we're talkingabout. I've never been pregnant.
I will never be pregnant. I youhave been? Yes. So you can speak
with a bit more authority here.
But that as an example, or maybeas a parable or an image for us
of what does that mean? How doeshow does pregnancy time work
different than tic tock time?
Vanessa Caruso (14:05):
Yeah, get on?
Well, I think this is related.
Something that came to mind forme, as he talked was St.
Benedict. And his. There's arule around the bell in St.
Benedict's rule. And it was Imean, now it's pretty common, I
think, in monastic places wherethis bell would ring at some
(14:30):
point in the day and it wouldsignal that it's time to move on
to the next thing. So there'slike work, study rest and prayer
or something, you know, sothere's like mopping the floors,
reading sacred texts, prayingand resting and eating. And so
when the bell would ring one ofthe rules was you had to stop
what you were doing immediately.
Even like you He even said notto like cross your T or dot your
(14:54):
eye. So there was this readinesswhen the bell rang. And he said,
or the author I read who talksabout him said, the idea was
that you move on to the nextthing, not because you want to,
but because it's time. So it'steaching this way of being and
living in the world where youtrust that there's enough time.
(15:15):
Like you're not it's not thecenter. You're not the center of
it all. That there's one
Andy Withrow (15:25):
time siding. Yeah, you're you're externalizing, the
decider? Yes. How you use yourtime who gets to decide that?
Yes.
Vanessa Caruso (15:33):
And there's something good for us. There's
something freeing in that frame.
And doing that, and pregnancy isis like that, like how you do
just want
Andy Withrow (15:41):
certain things happen. You gotta move, you
gotta do something differently.
Yeah,
Vanessa Caruso (15:45):
there's not so much decision fatigue, right? Do
I keep reading this letter? Do Istudy longer? Do I save dishes
for tomorrow, it's just the bellrings, and you move on. But the
worldview that you're investingin, in that is that God is in
charge of time, God knows whatthe world needs to thrive, God
(16:05):
knows what we need, as humancreatures created ones to
thrive. And so if we kind of areobedient or faithful to or
trusting of moving on, or ofletting things be done to us,
and responding to them, that'show we're formed or our
salvation comes from. It's notour salvation, but it's like a
(16:26):
means of grace, to let time bedone to us. Instead of being the
masters of time, does that makesense?
Andy Withrow (16:37):
It makes a lot of sense. It's. And it's something
that, that there's elements ofthat that long, that are really
long for us, the freedom to nothave to decide constantly, how
to allow someone greater andwiser or, or God in this case,
(16:59):
to determine, here's how, here'show you're to use your time. And
just be like, Okay, great. Idon't have I can give up. Me as
the decision maker for thosethings. And I can be free to be
more present in the moment,because I'm not constantly
thinking, Oh, what about this?
What about that? And just theway I don't think it's just me,
(17:21):
I think a lot of us live withthe To Do lists in our head. And
when am I going to get to this,I need to make, you know, to be
able to have some at least alevel of freedom from that to
say, this is the time I'm givenfor these things. That sounds
really great.
Vanessa Caruso (17:40):
I know, in practice is so complicated. I
mean, even a couple days ago, Ithink this was maybe two days
ago, I looked at the clock and Ihad an hour and 27 minutes left
before it was time to pick upLeo from school. And I felt so
(18:01):
many feelings because thatmorning, I had just been really
present. So I had longerconversations with neighbors
than I usually allow myself Iwas present to my husband. And
you know, like met a need forfiguring something out. Yeah. I
wasn't it didn't feel like I wasa slave to my to do list. I felt
(18:23):
really I felt like a human inthe world with Christ
consciousness, like, okay,there's stuff going on in the
world. And I just need to openmy eyes to it and respond to it
today. But in that moment, I wasI had a feeling of like, but now
what, like I have all this stuffI was going to do. And I only
have an hour and 27 minutes. ButI feel like Kairos time made me
(18:45):
think Hold on a second, likeGod, you know, that I only have
an hour and 27 minutes. What'syour What? What? How would you
use this time? Or if you wereme, or anything you want to help
me figure out about the best useof this time, like what on my to
do list doesn't need to happenright now. Even even switching
(19:11):
my mind around like, I wastedall this time, like being
present to other people. Tomaybe that's exactly a good day,
today. And maybe God's greatwith that too. And there's
freedom even in thinking Well,every day I have this desire to
do 20 minutes of centeringprayer. That's one of my
(19:33):
priorities like I in my rule oflife I have come up with if I'm
do nothing else today, I'm goingto do these two things. So I
hadn't done that yet. And Ithought, What if God's like,
Hey, this is not like I don'tknow. This isn't a roll. I just
talked about real but this is arelationship. I'm cool with you
(19:58):
not doing that today. Even evenfor me to have the thought that
God would be that I'd be able torelate with God about missing
that 20 minute time. That's apriority for me. And, and not
knowing how to use the rest ofmy time. I don't I don't have
(20:19):
any conclusions about that. Butit just felt new. And to not get
into like the Tick Tock To DoList zone right after what felt
like a lot of fruit of theSpirit. Yeah. In the previous
part of my day. Yeah.
Andy Withrow (20:35):
Yeah, it's it. I have, like, 10 questions. We
don't have time for me. Yeah,ironically. I mean, we do. And I
think the this may be our newpodcast will for this time to
come back and revisit thesethings. Yeah, I think this is a
big this. Yeah, time thing is abig one that I think is
important to both of us. Yeah.
But I'm wondering like, I thinkof, I think I have to there's
(20:57):
kind of two elements to this.
There's like, there's payingattention and recognizing the
time. And then there's acting,acting in the time, I think of
Jesus saying things like in thegospels, you know, pay
attention. Know the seasons,he's not talking about the Four
Seasons, he's talking about thesigns of the times pay
(21:19):
attention, you know, when a treeis in fruit, so also you need to
pay attention to what'shappening and act accordingly.
And so there's sort of that,that pay attention, he talks,
you know, watch and pray. Hetalks about time's up kingdom,
the kingdom of God is here.
Here's the season right now,this is what you should be
doing. And so there's thatelement of how do we, how do we
pay attention better attentionto the time? Yeah. And then how
(21:44):
do we keep Kairos time? Is thereany thoughts from you on that? I
mean, you've talked about prayercentering prayer. Now I have to
imagine when we think whenwatching and praying has to
there has to be an element ofslowing down and and being
mindful of God, pinging beingpresent to God who's always
(22:07):
present to us. Yeah. The ifthere's a problem of presence,
it's not. It's not from hisdirection. Now. It's our how to
how do we slow down so that wecan start paying attention to
this different kind of time?
Vanessa Caruso (22:21):
Yeah. Yeah, for me, the what I kind of learned
in spiritual direction training,as the basis for being present
is stop looking, listen, thatwas how my program kind of
framed it, having practicesaround stopping looking and
(22:41):
listening. So stopping beingsomething in a daily or at least
regular way of silence, whichfor me, setting a timer for 20
minutes for centering prayer isis just an exercise, it feels
like a microcosm of sacrificingmy presence, it feels like a
(23:05):
sacrifice of presence, like,there's so much I could be doing
right now, there's so much Icould be worrying about. But for
this 20 minutes, I'm just goingto be present to you. And that
is going to teach me somehow,over time, throughout the rest
of my day, to learn how to bepresent and pay attention. So
(23:27):
stopping is that looking, issome form of examine or
reflection regularly, where wewe stopped to look back and make
connect the dots between thingsthat help us keep time or wake
up or have hope, or payattention, and to do more of
those, and to strategize how todo less of the stuff that is not
(23:53):
good for us, like shopping forme, for clothing, being in a
mall, very few days. With thathelped me to keep time, Mary,
Mary like, because it just isnot a great environment. For me.
It does not bring me It bringsme more towards self
consciousness, rather thanChrist. In my world, of course,
(24:15):
you have to shop sometimes, butyou know, that's one of the
things on my list and thenlistening. So stopping looking
and listening, looking at somekind of reflection or examine.
And then listening is some formof coming to the Bible or for
season it might be you know,another book or something really
life giving book. And saying, Ithink there is actually
(24:39):
something the Holy Spirit wantsto say to me through this text,
and I'm gonna not just read itand check it off the list, but
I'm just gonna read a little bitof it and say, Okay, I'm
actually I'm open. Is thereanything about this that's alive
for me right now. So those arethe three basic practices To me
(25:00):
that helped me be alert and stoplooking listen has like an
alertness. Yeah, it's like stayalert stuffs happening. Look out
for the signs. Yeah, make sureyou're awake and like you have
your, your faculties engaged,
Andy Withrow (25:13):
right? Yeah, that's good. I think it's
helpful. There's some overlap. Ifeel I think, I feel the most. I
made the most present to God.
And I think I sense the voice ofGod speaking my life most most
recently when I'm when I'm in adiscipline of memorization of
(25:34):
Scripture. Yeah. There'ssomething about it that forces
me to do some of those thingslike to stop like, for when you
memorize scripture, it forcesyou to slow down. Yeah. Because
you just read through it andyou. You miss so much when I
have to memorize it. And I haveto memorize what preposition is
being used? What? Relativeclauses like, why, why in the
(25:55):
six month? What, wait a minute,that's the thing that forced me
to slow down, I would have nevernoticed that just reading
through it. Yeah, on my own,when I'm actually forced to slow
down, and I can recite it in myhead. While I'm in line at the
bank or laying on my bed andcan't sleep or whatever
situation I'm in. Then I startto ask, Well, why is why does
(26:15):
Luke say that? And I askedquestions I wouldn't ask. Yes.
And and that's, that's when?
Yeah, that's when things startto open up the Scripture start
to open up and if you're like,Oh, I think God is the Spirit of
God is actually opening bringingthem some of the significance of
(26:36):
this out for me cuz I'm slowingdown enough to pay attention.
And it becomes so rich.
Vanessa Caruso (26:42):
Andy, we should do a podcast on memorization, a
podcast on memorization, becauseI'm reading, I feel like there
is so much there. Yeah, get it.
I mean, to me, memorizingScripture is an example of
betters one day in your courtsthan 1000. Elsewhere. In the
sense that, like you said, whenyou least expect it. I mean,
(27:05):
you're right, I have momentswhile talking with someone or
walking for school pickup or inthe shower. And revelation comes
about a, a word in the passageor an insight comes, that to me,
communicates that we do not justlearn by reading, you know, like
(27:28):
that, that is so much how wethink we learn like, I'm going
to read this article, I'm goingto research this, I'm going to
listen to the sermon, and thenI'm going to know, in reality,
the way the Spirit works, or theway God wired us is to learn by
doing by living. So maybe weneeded to take a shower, while
(27:48):
you know reciting this passageor not even sometimes I'm not
even consciously reciting it.
And a connection is just made.
Yeah. That I could have done anexegesis on for three hours and
not seen it. Yeah, for sure. Imean,
Andy Withrow (28:04):
yeah, definitely.
Yeah. Yeah, that's, that's sorich. And I want to transition
now into and if I wish I had abell to transition us.
Vanessa Caruso (28:18):
Oh, my gosh, and we have to stop what we're,
yeah. That's kind of fun.
Andy Withrow (28:21):
Yeah. Although I'm just, I'm the decider in this
point. So yeah, it's time totransition. So maybe we should
do it. Yeah, I don't know. Idon't know. Okay, anyway. It's
(28:46):
an overlapping topic. It kind oftransitions, I think, naturally
is this idea of how God'skingdom comes? How does God work
in the world? And, and I thinkthat is, that's potent in the
same passage where the angelcomes to marry, and makes this
announcement. Because he's gonnasay, you are going to bet you
(29:07):
will conceive in your womb andyou will bear a son is going to
happen. And this is how theKingdom comes. Because this is
God with us that she's bearingshe's, she is bearing God in her
womb, and carrying God aroundwith her wherever she goes.
(29:27):
There's that scene in the nextepisode as she goes to visit her
relative Elizabeth. And when shecomes in the door, or what
happens, a jump in the belly.
Yeah, John jumps in her womb,she leaps and the spirit is
active there. Anyway. I thoughtthere's a lot of rich stuff here
for us to kind of just pokearound in the same kind of in
the same vein of living on God'stime and paying attention to
(29:50):
what does it look like to bediscerning to watch and pray to
live kind of when you're so I'vebeen told when you're praying
pregnant, you have to payattention to your body what's
happening? Your your more, youare attentive on a different
level, I guess. Yeah. And payingattention. And I think there's,
(30:10):
there's some parallels. I findit fascinating that this
episode, God's Kingdom is goingto come in full force. And it
begins with this word from theangel. Like this is Mary's first
introduction to the whole ideaand concept of what's happening,
(30:31):
how God is going to do thisgreat reversals. It's so potent
in Mary and she feels it sostrongly. She's got she sings a
whole song about it. In thecalled the Magnificat in the
next in the next episode withwith her cousin, Elizabeth or
her relative Elizabeth. But itjust begins with a word. And
(30:53):
it's, it's small, it's seeminglyinvisible. It's just an
announcement. And it parallelsYou will conceive in your womb,
no one's gonna notice that, MaryNow you're going to notice that
in the first instance, it's justgoing to happen, it's going to
be not noticeable. This is howGod can't God's Kingdom begins
(31:13):
and it reminded me of all ofJesus parables, the mustard seed
like you can't see it. Saltinestone, yes, yeast in the in the,
in the dough, treasure in afield treasure and hidden in a
field. There's the the for theparable of the forest soils with
the seeds. And this one this oneis it looks like complete
failure, nothing's coming up.
(31:34):
And then the last one is anexplosion that's like way bigger
than that make more than makesup for all the last seeds. This
is the nature and so you havethe startup, here's the word of
the angel, you're going toconceive and you're going to
bear a sign, it's gonna lookinsignificant. We know how that
story goes. No one's recognizinghim, except people who have
inside information. But guesswhat? He's gonna be given the
(31:57):
house of his father David, he'sgonna rule over the house of
Jacob forever. His kingdom willhave no end like this is this is
it? This is the new creation.
This is what the prophets haveforetold. This is the big thing
going in action right now.
seemingly invisible, seeminglynothing. And you're going to
(32:18):
bear it in your body, Mary,you're going to carry this
around for nine months, you'regoing to give birth to this one.
You're going to raise this onefrom a baby. And that's it.
That's the kingdom. Wow.
And it's it's, it's not a oneoff. I mean, this is how God
works. You have Hannah, you'vegot Sarah in the Old Testament
(32:39):
story who's old and barren. Waypast age. You've got Rachel, in
the old story, you've gotElizabeth now. So this like God
loves this image of barrenness,and then and then making
something fertile out of it.
You're right. He loves it. Heloves the the seeming
invisibility or, or failure, theapparent failure of the kingdom.
(33:06):
And then it just being thisresurrection, this explosion
that nobody saw coming. Wow,loves to work that way. And so
that's challenging, I think forus, because that takes practice
and training to learn to payattention on that level. And to
take the things that lookinvisible, and impotent and
(33:28):
barren, and like a failure andsay, God, I think you're you're
doing something here. You'reyou're at work here.
Vanessa Caruso (33:44):
Yeah, it's really, it's so beautiful. That
to think of God loving like,those are God's favorite movies
or stories. Something I, whenyou were talking, I thought,
Okay, what, what is that seed?
Like, what is that little thingthat begins the big thing? And
(34:07):
it makes me it makes me thinkthat it's, I mean, what maybe
this is probably another sectionyou have, but um, it's Mary's
saying, yes. It's being open towhat God might do, and actually
consenting to it, even though wedon't know what it's gonna fully
(34:30):
look like. And just in dailylife. What I feel like that
means to me is that prayer thatI get to it feels like a really
treasured prayer that I get to acouple times a year where I say,
I realized something that's kindof keeping me from living the
(34:51):
way I want to live or that God,how God wants me to live. And I
finally come to a place to say,Okay, I am open to you
addressing this pattern in me,or you doing something new was
with a barren area of life, adead dream, a ride off the 11th
(35:11):
hour for closure on this part ofmy future, something like that.
And so to me that seed is the,the willingness to be open to
God and to consent to say, Yes,I give you access to me to do
what you want to do in thisarea, even though I'm scared to
(35:34):
look at it, or I'm scared toface it or admit it. Like now
I'm remembering. I did somethingwhen I was like 2425, or
something like that. I didn'ttell anybody about it for a long
time. And it was not good. EvenI didn't even say that I said
not good. And I had so moving toVictoria. So this is like 15
(35:57):
years later, I had this likevery strong feeling that I
really wanted to tell my familyabout it, like kind of come
clean. I had already talkedabout it with my husband,
therapists, a couple closefriends. But I took a long time,
like something that I wasashamed of. And I remember it
just crossing my mind one day,you know, you can't make this
(36:19):
stuff happen, where I'm like,No, I would never I could never
tell them. You know what I mean?
Like, that'd be so awkward. Howwould I bring it up? Just like,
nope, not happening. And then assoon as that comes, you're like,
now I'm kind of open to it. I'mkind of so it's it's that kind
of prayer like, god? Is thissomething you? Is this for me?
(36:41):
Like, is this would this befreedom or growth or healing or
something? If it is, I'm open toit. I do not want to do it. But
I'm open to it. And then like amonth later, God always answers
that prayer. There's like, Godwill make away into something
big that if I look back, I wouldhave said, No way I wouldn't
have done that I wouldn't havehad a child, or I would but you
(37:03):
know what I mean, you're like ifI knew this, but it's like this
initial openness. And then Godopens doors and makes away for
for the kingdom of heaven, likethe good stuff, the economy of
God, the grace, and the peace.
And I did end up telling myfamily and it was a great
conversation. And I cried, andthey laughed and made fun of me.
(37:25):
And it was really healing. Andit was only because the door I
pass the door and there was acreek in it. And then I was
like, I just want to keepwalking. But for some reason I
was like, I am open. If you knowyeah, now it's in the balls in
your court ish.
Andy Withrow (37:44):
Yeah. Yeah, I think that is a great image of
our participation. With like,like Mary here, the
participation with the word.
Like there's certainly there's,there's, yeah, two things here,
you've got the word is the seed.
On the one hand, Jesus makes usexplicit, like in his in his
parables, right. And then Butthen you've also got the kinds
(38:07):
of, in that case, maybe thekinds of soil like the not being
choked by anxieties not beingoverly burdened, or, or your
whole life is sort of orientedaround even just what we're
talking about with the Cronustime like the the constant
striving and anxiety likethere's no space or no room for
(38:28):
God's word to actually take rootand take hold and actually birth
something in us as God bearerslike like Mary is. And and I
think that's helpful becausebecause you've got these. You've
got these images of that Godovercomes you got images of
(38:50):
barrenness, that he makes thebarren fertile, you've got the
images of exile, which is thisestrangement from God, that God
overcomes and says, I will bewith my people, and they will be
with me. You've got you've gotthis problem of death. That
(39:10):
looks like from our point ofview, has the final word over
anything and everything we do,and God saying, Nope, I'm going
to push beyond death. Yeah, leadyou out of it, these big picture
things. But in the meantime, ifwe don't have our bearings of
okay, well, what God What areyou up to? Then? Then it's one
thing to be open, like, Okay,God can do anything. But God,
(39:30):
what are you actually doing?
Yeah, because not every bear inperson gets to have a child.
Right. And that's something tomourn. Yeah. But some do. And
those are those are. Those arepart of the stories. Yeah. And
so, being open, and having animagination like Mary does here.
Seems like she's formed aroundthe word to like, yeah, she's
(39:51):
not surprised. I mean, I'm sureshe was surprised. Yeah, but
she's not scandalized that shewas chosen. Yeah, like Zechariah
can't believe like Zechariah hasa poor showing in front of
Gabriel. Yeah, go back to theprevious episode. You got a lot
of these encounters with angelsor with God or where people
they're not. They're notprepared. Like Mary appears to
(40:16):
be here. Let it be according toyour word. I'm serving the Lord.
Like she's not scandalized.
Like, oh, yeah, this seems likesomething God would do. Right.
She has a logistical question.
One question. Well, how how willthis be since I'm a virgin? And
then Gabrielle answers that thisis how great sign me up? Ready?
(40:39):
Ready to go. And and I I thinkthat's a testament to her. Her
ability to her paying attention.
Yeah. Knowing what God is likefrom his self disclosure from
from his words. And I thinkthat's a clue for us. Because we
(41:00):
have the same problems we've gotwe struggle with estrangement or
distance from god yeah, like howwho got where are you? Where are
you in my life? How are youworking there's no shortage of
depression there's no shortageof despair thing like you're
just going through life withouthope without a sense of a future
(41:20):
so we need all the same kinds ofthings that Mary needed and that
that the people have heard thereIsrael in her time needed a
whole world needed and and sothe ability or the challenge I
guess for us to figure out okay,how do we how do we slow down
and pay attention? Learn to payattention in that God timing and
(41:49):
sort of turn down the volume onthe KRONOS timing. And yeah,
live live. Live in that way towhere we can we can have that
kind of response.
Vanessa Caruso (42:01):
Yeah. So inspiring.
Andy Withrow (42:19):
So Arcade Fire, one of my favorite bands, okay.
One of my favorite albums of alltime, the suburbs. They've got
this song that I thinkencapsulates perfectly the idea
of Kronos time. It's calledModern man. You haven't listened
to now. Come on. Anyway, checkit out. Okay. But it's, it talks
(42:42):
about or it sings about thewaiting in line for a number,
but you don't understand like amodern man, this idea of how how
the way that we engage with thismodern age and the way we engage
with time, this tick tock time,deprives us of meaning and
significance. And even ourhumanity, it's kind of the major
(43:05):
theme of the songs really,really potent, really great.
Wow. Anyway, we've been talkingabout this about Chronos. Time
and Kairos. Time, aboutpregnancy time, about what does
it mean to bear God with us orbear the work of His kingdom?
And carry it around with us? Wedon't really get into that.
That'd be me. Yeah, for nexttime. Yeah. What does it mean to
(43:26):
be a god bearer in ourneighborhood? That's a pretty
big idea.
Vanessa Caruso (43:29):
Write that down.
Andy Withrow (43:31):
Write it down, right. Next. That's great. We
already got, like, three, Iknow. But what does it mean to
live in Kairos time, I want toalways and I would like to end
our times with trying to thinkof practical stuff. And we've
(43:53):
already given some of that youtalk about stop, look. And
listen, I talked aboutmemorization of Scripture as as
a means of prayer and beingpresent to, to God's God through
being present to his words. Butif we could spend a bit more
time on how do we respond toGod's time in God's kingdom and
God's presence? Yeah. And, andspecifically, I can anticipate
(44:15):
in my own heart and I cananticipate in someone who might
be listening to this podcastkeep it how do you not live in
Chronos time and we can't wecan't not live in that time. I
still have to, I think respondto some of my emails. I still
have to punch in to my you know,I have to be at work on time.
You know? Can I be any good? MyOh, sorry, boss. I'm moving on.
(44:37):
Chill out. Right.
Vanessa Caruso (44:38):
You are my boss.
So maybe I could.
Andy Withrow (44:40):
Yeah, you might be able to get away with it. But
But I can imagine that could bea stretch further. So what does
it mean it? It might not it'sprobably not an either or it's
probably you can't escapeChromeless time that's just the
way it is. But it doesn't meanhow do we have strategies for
for paying attention even in themidst of a world around us that
(45:00):
is addicted to hurry. Yeah. Andaddicted to productivity,
productivity. Functionally,we're you know, we're just we're
stuck with seems like we'restuck there and maybe even as a
culture as a societyparticularly bad at getting
unstuck and thinking in theseother terms. So overdue. Yeah.
(45:24):
Got it.
Vanessa Caruso (45:28):
Yeah, I there's this First and Second Peter, I
forget what chapter but it sayssomething like, regard the
slowness of the Lord, as oursalvation. I think some
translations say patience,regard the patience of the Lord
or the slowness. And to me, thatis an encouragement, often to
(45:51):
think, Okay things the monotonyof daily life, and how much we
do have to respond to emails anddo the dishes again, and go to
work and take showers and likethere's just so much a part of
daily life that is unavoidable.
But I am choosing to believethat I can regard all that stuff
(46:13):
what seems slow or long ormonotonous, the KRONOS The Tick
tock, as a means of grace for melike that God doesn't think it's
not good. Like God thinks it'sgood for me that the sun rises
every 24 hours, and that there'sa new day, and that there's more
dishes to be done and that I'm,I'm embodied like I'm restricted
(46:36):
to this body. And that duringthe winter here, it's dark by
4:45pm. Like, instead of beingscandalized, by those things,
like you said, Mary wasn't? Whatdoes it mean to embrace some of
the rhythms God has given to usand in the world, through our
(46:57):
bodies, through the 24 hour day,through the invitation to take
one of those days and resistthrough Sabbath, you know, to
take some time each day, tie thelittle bit of our time each day
and resist that productivitytick tock mindset and say, I am
(47:18):
going to pray with this time.
And then the rest of the day, Iam going to be like a monk who
goes about the work that isbefore me at this life stage.
And it's always going to changebut I'm going to regard the
slowness of this endeavor calledbeing human as salvation I'm
(47:42):
going to trust that God issaving me and the world in God's
time as I am a faithful stewardto to what's in front of me.
Yeah, for this time, you use
Andy Withrow (47:55):
the word resist and it made me think that this
is this is like a this is abattle like there's there's work
to this pushing against just themomentum. Yeah. Of Life around
us. Yeah. And and I use the wordaddiction earlier because it
does feel like that to me, metoo. I get addicted to hurry
addicted to all the patterns offilling up every moment with
(48:22):
with something that has to feelrelevant to me. Yeah. Authentic,
authentic, or I have to selfactualize or have to get all my
to do list done, and then I'llfeel better. And then all this
stuff, which hardly ever any ofit happens. Yeah, but it's this
constant striving and toactually to do the hard work of
forming patterns of resistancethat are day in and day out.
(48:43):
That's a that's the thing. And Ithink it's I think it's hard for
most of us. Yes, very hard formost of us.
Vanessa Caruso (48:53):
i Yeah, it's hard on so many levels. One of
them is that there is somethingcounterintuitive to it, like
even I mean I I'm a spiritualdirector, I meet with people to
like help them listen and lookand STOP, STOP LOOKING listen on
their with their lives, youknow, an hour a month. And yet
(49:15):
it's still hard for me. Everythird day, I have to remind
myself, why it's good to spend30 minutes, we're talking less
than a 10th of my day, the hoursI'm given in a day to just push
everything aside and show up toGod in a quiet room. And if I
(49:37):
don't have a quiet room,wherever I am in the car before
I go to something else. And justto show up, it's I have to
remind myself every couple days,like there this is good to do
because it does not feel like agood use of time. That's like my
main. My main struggle is thisis this is a waste of time.
Andy Withrow (49:56):
Yeah, it looks like it's invisible
unnoticeable. Exactlyineffective. Yes. And a failure.
Yes.
Vanessa Caruso (50:07):
Much less going to church and like participating
in the liturgical calendartogether. Like I was just having
a conversation about Advent witha couple people and one person
was like, He already came. Like,I don't really get it. Does
everybody else know that? Youknow what it means Guys look,
yeah. I don't have to break itto you. But like, what are we
(50:30):
doing? There's a lot of churchy.
I love all that churchy languageabout waiting and stuff. But he
was like, I don't I literallydon't get it, because it already
happened. Yeah. So there'ssomething counterintuitive about
choosing to reenact this cycle,trusting that in the church
calendar, there is a time tofeast and a time too fast a time
(50:52):
to wait. And a time tocelebrate.
Andy Withrow (50:56):
I think the church calendar helps remind us that
that is that this isn't just Imean, Mary is unique in that she
physically carried the Son ofGod, yeah, her womb, but that
there's something in here for usto as the church as a community
and as individuals that God,this is how God is in the world.
This is how his kingdom comes inus. And that there is something
(51:18):
that we get to do in solidaritywith Mary, in terms of, again,
getting to that topic for nexttime, or whenever we're gonna
get to it being being God bearsin that way. Yeah. And yeah, so
you mentioned the churchcalendar, that is one concrete
strategic way to mark time in adifferent way. Think about what
(51:43):
is at what is the season. Adventreminds us to do what it reminds
us to wait and anticipate andthink about pregnancy. Think
about, think about the Kairostime as we've been talking
about, think about anticipation.
Think about is, is God doingsomething in me? That seems
(52:04):
impossible? Because that's thekind of things that God does.
Literally, like, yeah, that'sGabriel's saying, for nothing
will be impossible for him.
Like, this is like this is hiswork. Yeah. And he's like,
great. Like for us to learn howto do that with Mary. Pay
(52:25):
attention to his word, and payattention to what's in front of
us. It's helpful. You mentioned30 minutes, maybe a good place
to start. For some of us. Yeah.
Who don't have a habit? Yeah. 30minutes of slowing down.
Vanessa Caruso (52:44):
Yeah. And key for that, for me, is deciding
that 95% of the success of that30 minutes, is just by doing it
showing up just showing up.
Yeah. Because if I start toevaluate the 30 minute sessions,
as like, that one was reallygood. I cried. I had a
(53:06):
revelation. I have directionfrom my day. I feel good.
Andy Withrow (53:12):
Real came to me.
Yeah. Told me what was going on.
Vanessa Caruso (53:15):
Yes. There are days that are feeling chanted.
Yeah. And then but that's aslave master in a way because
it's this kind of burden or thisexpectation to have that.
Andy Withrow (53:26):
Imagine how many how many days Mary had before?
Vanessa Caruso (53:31):
Yes.
Andy Withrow (53:32):
Were Gabriel didn't show up. Yeah. And
absolutely nothing or seemingconsequence. Yeah, happened. And
yet she was prepared when hedid. And you could tell there's
there's hints all over thatepisode that she was prepared.
She had the right mindset. Shehad an imagination for what God
was doing. Yeah. In her life.
Thanks for a lot of us in our,in our, our setting struggle to
(53:54):
have that kind of imagination.
Yeah. And maybe beginning toslow down and open ourselves up
a bit more will be to do thathard, slow work. That might not
seem super fruitful in themoment might seem like all the
things I've been talking aboutinvisible. Yeah. unproductive,
(54:16):
fruitless waste of time. Yeah.
Vanessa Caruso (54:23):
And even a starting point before the 30
minutes, because I feel likethat's so on every podcast right
now. You know, everyone, noteveryone, it just that's a big
thing, our habits and how we useour time. Yeah. And that can
just feel at certain times in mylife that can just feel like I'm
(54:43):
not there. I don't even know howto tell you how 30 minutes is
not gonna happen right now.
Because I'm just, that's not inmy realm of possibilities. So
even the prayer before that tome, is that one I want to want
to pay attention. I don't yetyeah, I'm too overwhelmed. I'm
too anxious. I'm too angry atthis situation in my life or
(55:07):
this unmet thing, but I at leastwill pray the prayer. I want to
want to pay attention. And thenthrow that ball back to God. And
and see see what kind ofconversation or what happens
when we actually give the spiritaccess to do to do more in us.
It's good. Yeah, I like it.
(55:36):
Well, yeah, that was fun. Thatwas fun.
Andy Withrow (55:38):
I think we should do this again. Metis was sort of
an experiment. Yeah. We weren'tlike sure if this was a good
day, but I had fun. So even ifwe have like zero listeners,
yeah. Or if it's like just ourspouses, or just us re listening
to what we said. Let's just keepdoing
Vanessa Caruso (55:51):
I mean, yeah.
And
Andy Withrow (55:55):
yeah, okay. Well, thanks. Thanks, Vanessa. Thanks.
Thanks for whoever's listening.
On the other end of this gladyou could join us. If you like
what you hear, or if you've gotideas for future shows, just
email us at Bear with me attable church.ca. See, I've
already got the email. Amazing.
Just came up with the title orthe show.
Vanessa Caruso (56:17):
Did you say bear with me or bear with us? Bear
with me? Okay.
Andy Withrow (56:21):
Bear with me.
Right. Yeah, I think we're stillit's still. We're still working
out the time. We think it's bearwith me. Yeah. Bear with me at
table church.ca. Yeah, check outthe show notes for links, and
book recommendations, oranything else we might come up
with. And we'll see you nexttime. Thanks, everybody.
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