March 17, 2022 • 43 mins
The latest instalment in our discipleship series where we look at some discipleship texts where Jesus is teaching his disciples something specific.
In Luke 6:12-16 Jesus goes to a mountain and hand picks the 12 who would be with him and get special access to the “Master” as he lives and teaches. If we’re also considered Jesus followers, what “special access” to the Master do we get and what does it look like and what can we do to take advantage of this access?
Jesus give some clues for ways to be in his presence. How does he find space for connection with God? AS we’ll see, Jesus “gets up” and “gets out”. This could be a helpful framework for our spiritual practice as well.
Resources:
- "Moving from Solitude to Community to Ministry" - Article by Henri Nouwen
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Andy Withrow (00:01):
Welcome to the bear with me podcast where we
aim to integrate belief andpractice in the Christian life.
Vanessa Caruso (00:18):
Press the button. Going I didn't know what
to say.
Andy Withrow (00:26):
To starting off this 1am I starting off this
one. Well, I can start with ourquestion. You know what we're
doing?
Vanessa Caruso (00:32):
I mean, I know what we're starting with. Great.
So Andy, yeah, what is somethingI can go first? So you can think
of anything to say but no,you've
Andy Withrow (00:45):
already already told you. I've got mine. Okay,
you're ready. I'm ready. Yeah,I'm ready to go. But you still
go first?
Vanessa Caruso (00:50):
Well, now I want you to go first. What is
something that's inspired youlately? Or that has kind of
moved you closer to God?
Something you've watched orlistened to? Read experienced?
Thought about? Yeah.
Andy Withrow (01:11):
Yeah, I'm gonna go with my good friend and current
mentor, Reverend, Reverend Dr. Ibelieve, wow, one of those. So
I get to connect with him everycouple of weeks. And we just met
yesterday. And I don't know,there's just something about
(01:32):
having somebody in your lifewho's regularly connecting with
you hearing your ups and downsasking you good questions,
encouraging you. It's just, Idon't know. It's just
necessary. Good. And fun. And I,you know, like, some, maybe some
(01:59):
people who are verbal processorsget you experienced this a lot,
where it's just like sayingthings even thinking about out
loud to somebody else who yourespect and can kind of kind of
speak some of that back to youor, or say what they're hearing
and it's been, it's been reallygreat. That's so
Vanessa Caruso (02:17):
great. Yeah, you seem happy just even talking
about it or remembering it? Iam. So like, what? How does it
like encourage you? does itinspire you? What word would you
use? Or maybe
Andy Withrow (02:32):
encouraged as a great is probably the one that's
most obvious. I think sort ofconfirming, just confirming
things like, you know how youget in your head a lot. You
don't share it with anybodyelse? Oh, yeah. And you're like,
oh, wait, was that a good ideaor not? But just to, like, oh,
(02:52):
yeah, no, that's sounds great.
You know, or, or to challengeyou, maybe on your thinking.
It's just really helpful kind ofhelps you grow in confidence and
that sort of thing. So that's,that's been really helpful for
me.
Vanessa Caruso (03:05):
Great.
Confirming and encouraging. WhatI loved recently was the
documentary my Octopus teacher.
Andy Withrow (03:15):
Oh, I've seen the preview for that kitty, and I
have oh, you would keep talkingabout how we're gonna watch
that.
Vanessa Caruso (03:23):
Savannah would love it. Yeah, even Iran em it?
Yeah. Leo started it with us. Itis so beautiful. I don't even
have like particular love foranimals. Naturally, like some
people do. Yeah, but thefootage, like how beautiful the
footage is. He has the guy haslike a very gentle, calm
(03:48):
demeanor. And quite serious,too. Yeah. And so the way the
story is told about thisoctopus, and their friendship is
just so moving. I keep thinkingabout it. Well, it is beautiful.
I'm going to watch it again.
Andy Withrow (04:05):
Again. Yes, it's a it's a movie. It's like an hour
and a half or Yeah. Documentary.
Vanessa Caruso (04:12):
Just like so captured my imagination. And
I've never seen a CEO
Andy Withrow (04:19):
is he just did he just do it himself. He just
like, I'm just gonna make thedocumentary or did someone like,
Hey, I understand you have thisrelationship with an octopus.
Vanessa Caruso (04:28):
You know, he's like a film maker guy. Like he
had all the footage. He wasburnt out after so many years of
working like that. Yeah. Yeah.
Cool. That's really cool.
totally recommend it.
Andy Withrow (04:40):
Okay. All right.
All right.
Vanessa Caruso (04:42):
Put that in the show notes.
Andy Withrow (04:44):
Yep. Teacher, definitely Netflix. Yeah.
Vanessa Caruso (04:50):
Okay, well tell us what we're doing today.
Andy Withrow (04:53):
What are we doing today? We're in a discipleship
series. So we've looked at theGreat Commission. That was our
first text Matthew 28, thefamous last words of Jesus, and
we want to spend a series thatwill be a certain number of
episodes to be determined as wego along, but looking at
(05:17):
specifically some discipleshiptexts were, at least to begin
with starting off with whereJesus is having some
interactions with his disciplesand teaching them. And there's
just there's a lot of these alot of the Gospels are made up
of these stories. So obviously,we're not going to go through
them all, but just picking aselect through and I've actually
used sort of the selection thatGreg Ogden from his book,
(05:44):
discipleship essentials, it's aworkbook that you can go through
with people and just basicallyusing using his texts that he
chose to just say, well, let'sjust start here and kind of dig
into these and see what comesout of them. I am someone who
really appreciates and enjoys alectionary of some sort. So
(06:04):
where I don't have to, likedecide myself or which text I'm
going to, to read. So this is asort of lectionary that he's,
he's done the work of likeputting these ones together. So
we're just going to go throughsome of these and the one for
today is Luke chapter six verses12 through 16. And who should
(06:26):
should I read it? Or should youread it?
Vanessa Caruso (06:28):
Oh, go ahead. I
Andy Withrow (06:29):
don't have it.
What translation do you have infront of you?
Vanessa Caruso (06:31):
I like NRSV.
Andy Withrow (06:34):
And our S V, I have the ESV in front, okay.
happens and you don't have yourBible out.
Vanessa Caruso (06:40):
Well, my computer's on it.
Andy Withrow (06:44):
Sitting on your Bible, yeah, it is. It's like,
okay, because we can we're sofor those of you listening, we
are using a program that becausewe're not in the same space. We
are Tella, podcastingtelecasting so we can see each
other because it helps for I'mjust a very big nonverbal
(07:09):
accused person. So it helps meto see Vanessa's face when she's
like, giving me the look like Ihave no idea what you're talking
about. That helps me adjust. Orwhen you're like usually what
you're doing, you're justsmiling with big eyes and say,
Yeah, keep going. But anyway,you're using your Bible to help
(07:31):
prop up your computer. Yes, it'sgood, then I guess I will read.
Please do. Okay, this is Lukechapter six, verses 12 through
16. In these days, Jesus wentout to the mountain to pray. And
(07:52):
all night, he continued inprayer to God. And when day
came, he called his disciplesand chose from them 12, who mean
named apostles, Simon, who meannamed Peter, and Andrew has
brother, and James and John andPhilip, and Bartholomew, and
(08:14):
Matthew and Thomas and James theson of Alphaeus. And Simon, who
was called the Zealot, andJudas, the son of James, and
Judas Iscariot, who became atrader. The end of that
paragraph, there's a lot moreafter that. So let's jump into
(08:38):
this. I just wanted to startwith a bit of a bit of what we
already talked about in theMatthew 28 textures to kind of
help frame again, remind us whatis discipleship? What is being a
disciple, we talked about it interms of being an apprentice to
Jesus, that might be kind of ahelpful image or term that's a
bit more familiar than disciple.
It's kind of used in, in thewider world. And so we're kind
(09:01):
of getting in Luke's version ofJesus story we're getting at the
bit where he's, he's callingspecifically 12 to him. And he's
calling them out of a largercrowd of disciples. So there's
(09:22):
the 12 disciples who maybe wemost famously, are most
popularly usually think of whenwe think of disciples in the
gospels, but there's also thislarger crowd of disciples of
maybe, you know, we know at somepoint he sends out 70 or 72 of
these disciples, so is likemaybe approaching 100 of this
larger crowd of disciples. Sohe's calling these 12 out of
(09:45):
this larger crowd that arefollowing him around and
listening to his teaching. Andwe've talked about disciple
getting to be an insider Writesomeone who is, gets to follow
Jesus around. And maybe nowespecially these 12, they get
(10:05):
special access to Jesus, whichseems really fun and unfair at
the same time. Why do these 12and they get special time and
attention from Jesus. picturethem around the campfire late at
night, you know, asking him, sowhat did you mean when you said,
you know, the kingdom of God islike a pearl, or the kingdom of
(10:29):
God is like this, which we seesome examples of that happening.
And so there's this kind of thatneat aspect. When we think of
our own discipleship, I guess,say, Well, what did that mean
for them? Is there some of thatfor us to do we get? Do we get
some special access, we get somespecial benefit of being with
(10:51):
Jesus, and what might thatlooked like, in the season has
always been so feel free tointerrupt. All your with all
your thoughts and ideas? Great.
So that's just the imaginativespace of trying to enter into
that as disciples of Jesus like,Okay, what's in this for us?
(11:12):
What would what's our role inthis? And what do we get? And I
just want to start with some ofthe setting here. He starts off
by saying in verse 12, in thesedays, and so a natural question
might be, what were those days?
Vanessa Caruso (11:27):
Yes, happening.
What were those days was
Andy Withrow (11:30):
back. Earlier in chapter six. Jesus has after
having some, after specificallycalling Peter and his brother
Andrew to follow him. And Jamesand John, who are all fishermen.
That's in chapter five. That'ssomething we'll look at
(11:50):
specifically. Later on. Hecleanses the leper, he heals a
paralytic. He calls a taxcollector to follow on. He has a
conflict about fasting. He has aconflict about the Sabbath. And
(12:13):
he gets to the point to where heheals a man on the Sabbath. In a
synagogue, and this is a pointof conflict that is so so
significant in terrible from thereligious authorities point of
view that says that they werefilled with fury and disgust
(12:37):
with one another what they mightdo to Jesus. Wow, that's
literally the verse beforearborists in these days, and
it's in that setting in thattime, when there's all this
early on and Jesus ministry andall this conflict is happening.
Already, you're getting sort ofthis. This darkness these dark
(12:57):
clouds looming, have this is notseem to be going well. And it's
at this time that he goes out tothe mountain to pray.
Vanessa Caruso (13:09):
Well, that makes a huge difference that in these
days, he goes out. Because thewhat you said was the verse
right before that is that peopleare furious with him. That's a
very uncomfortable situation forme to be in. Yeah. To think
(13:30):
about being able to concentrateenough to pray. Or maybe it felt
like a necessity. Yeah.
Andy Withrow (13:39):
Like, I can't sleep. I'm gonna go pray. Yeah.
I mean, we're not given thatthat interpretive lens
necessarily, it's not in thetext, but you've got that
setting of high conflict andtension.
Vanessa Caruso (13:57):
Which also makes me wonder, something I've never
wondered about Jesus. But maybepart of that tension and
conflict sparked a desire forhim to have a little bit more of
a community. Like maybe thenaming of the 12. That's a good
(14:19):
point came at that time for kindof that very human reason. I
don't mean human as in anegative reason. I just mean,
that's how we're wired. Howwe're made kind of reason is I
don't want to go through thistotally alone.
Andy Withrow (14:36):
Yeah. Interesting.
Yeah. So that that helps paintthe scene a little bit for me
about maybe what was goingthrough Jesus mind, heart and
mind and imagination. And so heengages in this all night
mountain prayer and themountains in So Galileo So one
(14:57):
of the reasons is region is it'snorth of Jerusalem, which was
just it was kind of the capital,the Centers for the temple was
the political center. Galileewas was North quite a bit. And a
bit more I think, as Iunderstand it a bit more mixed
(15:20):
in terms of religious ideas andpractice. There was a lot of
interaction with people fromother backgrounds. And it was
surrounded there's a lake there.
(15:41):
The Sea of Galilee that's where,you know, Peter and Andrew James
and John are you know, have thatmake their life as fishermen and
all around this big lake isthese little villages these
little towns and just outside ofthat, between the lake outside
(16:02):
the lake and the towns are sortof these these mountains by
mountains, I mean, hills, likeMount told me mount dug off to
check I wonder, I wonder. Imeant to look at my my handy
dandy Bible Bible Atlas and lookat the sort of holes because I'm
guessing I'm picturing themabout the size of Mount told me
(16:25):
not to talk which is what howmany? How would you say the
elevation is?
Vanessa Caruso (16:29):
No, this is what we need. Well, for where Katie?
Yeah,
Andy Withrow (16:33):
yeah. 200 feet, something like that. Now, you
can even walk from the bottom tothe top and about 10 minutes.
Yeah. Yeah. And so he's going tomount told me to pray. And and I
think the first thing I noticedactually even before that is
(16:53):
that he's he's going out ofwherever he is, whatever is
using Pauline Compendium. He isgetting out of out of the
village out of his surroundings.
And Jesus kind of does this indifferent spaces in the gospels,
he gets gets up early in themorning, he goes out to a quiet
place to pray, he gets away fromhis disciples, he gets away from
(17:15):
from the crowds, he gets awayfrom the city. Out of his
setting. And there's something Ithink important, intentional
about that. And I feel like youmight have something to say,
Vanessa Caruso (17:34):
Well, yeah, it just makes me It confirms for me
how different a retreat or anouting is, when I go away from
my normal space, or normalagenda. Like for the table
(17:54):
leadership retreats, how part ofthe spiritual value or the
communal value of going awaytogether is actually going away,
the going away part andeverything that it involves all
the discomfort, kind of beingout of sorts, feeling a little
(18:14):
bit like having to pack forstuff, set up your way, you're
going to sleep in this newspace. I feel like for me some
of that excitement, like Oh, Iget to sleep at this retreat
center for a couple nights stirsup some helpful stuff, but also
(18:36):
that the discomfort or theuneasiness of it kind of stirs
up some stuff that I don't haveto look at if I just do a
retreat at home. Yeah. Sothat's, that's interesting to
realize that Jesus did that aswell, that there's a different
quality of praying, or ofgetting away or solitude when we
(18:59):
do go outside of our normalagendas.
Andy Withrow (19:04):
Yeah, and I'm just thinking about to like, just how
many distractions are around meconstantly. Even if no one else,
like if I'm at home and no oneelse is at the house? There's
usually dishes. Yeah, it'shugely, you know, laundry,
there's there's reminders ofdomestic necessities. Yeah. And,
(19:27):
and getting getting out of thatsetting. I think might might be
something easy to dismiss assomething that's important and
necessary at times. Whether it'seven going for a walk or whether
it's getting to way too bit of asecluded or quiet or lonely
place. There's something maybebuilt into that that has this
(19:53):
spiritual payoff or benefit offocus and attention.
Vanessa Caruso (19:59):
You know, my About this and mean, because
you've read that time managementguy, Adam Grant making that up.
Andy Withrow (20:09):
Oh the get Getting Things Done guy. Yeah. And Cal
Newport. David Allen
Vanessa Caruso (20:14):
Kelo de Bourgh was totally
Andy Withrow (20:18):
close approximation. Yeah, so the
count I read Cal Newports bookwho we've we discussed a few
episodes back with Naomi ondigital minimalism. I didn't
read that one. But I read whenthey came out before called deep
work. And these talks about howwe're increasingly living in a
time and place where we can't dofocused work. We can't do deep
(20:39):
work because of the constantdistractions. Whether they're
digital or just or not, I mean,constant meetings, interruptions
and that sort of thing. And so.
So he talks about countlessexamples. I know, it's true for
me, too, if I want to getfocused work done, it's better
for me to get into the office orget started at 7am or 8am,
(21:02):
before other people start comingin, or it's time for meetings
for the day and that sort ofthing. He says, This isn't
always the case. This issomething that he argues is more
unique to our time and pace oflife, and specifically in North
America, or in the West ingeneral. I don't know. But and
so I just thought that justsomething that was a point of
(21:24):
connection. For me, it's like,if Jesus had to do it in the
first century, probably need todo it in the 21st century is
make some intentionality, Ithink it's one of my, one of the
other things because Jesus isintentional about prayer, about
this connection point with, withGod. And something that came up,
I get to teach this discipleshipclass right now we're going
(21:48):
through the same text, it's beenreally fun, right. And something
that came up in our timetogether that really resonated
with a lot of people is the ideathat Jesus also had to pray to
an invisible God. So we findthat challenging, like speaking
in to someone you can't see oralways sense His presence, that
(22:08):
that Jesus is engaging the samekind of connection.
Vanessa Caruso (22:16):
Wow, I hadn't really thought about that.
Andy Withrow (22:20):
So he's intentional about prayer, he's
getting out of his everydaynormal surroundings, it's
getting to a place where he can,that's literally dark and quiet
all night. And he's getting tothe mountain, which, if, if
(22:43):
you've read through your Bible,you know that the mountain is a
special place all the way fromMoses. Receiving also communing
with God, the top of themountain receiving words from
God at the top of the mountain,with Elijah spends some
(23:03):
significant times at the top ofthe mountains. It's prevalent in
the Psalms is the mean image ofa place to go to connect with
God to be in God's presence.
Yeah, there's sort of that easyidea to dismiss as primitive
like, oh, because it's up, it'scloser to the heavens and, and
that sort of thing. But I thinkalso, there's just even the very
(23:24):
human element of getting up andout. And, and helping aiding our
own senses of feeling closer. Wedo that with people who die, we
go to the place, we spread theirashes, or we buried them,
knowing that they're not reallythere. But it helps us to go
there to feel closer. Yeah. It'snot like God in the Bible is
(23:47):
teaching that God isn't justmore closer on mountains, he's
this close to you. Was the onepsalm 139. Doesn't matter if I
send high above or go to thedepths, depths of the pit,
you're there. You're in bothplaces. So it's so the Bible
isn't thinking that you'rephysically closer to God, if you
(24:09):
go to a mountain, I think it'sacknowledging this phenomenon,
that it helps us it helps oursenses of feeling closer, like
we might feel closer to others.
Yeah. So I think that's a nicething for us to say, hey, yeah,
it's true. God is wherever youare. There's never Yeah, not
(24:32):
with you. But there are maybesome things we can do to help us
feel closer and be more attunedor be more present. Maybe even
just some permission to do someof that stuff.
Vanessa Caruso (24:44):
I love that.
Yeah, it reminds me that youknow, people we live in such a
beautiful place and people kindof have these go to spots of
where they go to have some alonetime. Like, I can think of some
friends who go to the beach byDallas Road, your wife who loves
(25:05):
mountains, or little lookoutpoints over the water. Yeah. And
also, it makes me wonder ifJesus frequented the same
places. You know? Yeah. Yeah.
Andy Withrow (25:22):
Well, it did. I mean, I thought that too,
because your mind remember thethe last one, we looked at
Matthew 28. Go to gallium, youknow, meet you there at a
mountain didn't specify, didn'tname the mountain just at some
Mountain Dew. So you wonderlike, oh, did they have a
special? Did they know like, oh,well, I No worries. Yeah. Yeah,
like the one I know is mountain.
Vanessa Caruso (25:43):
Which reminds me this great book by Ruth Haley
Barton invitation to retreat.
She recommends in there, youknow, finding a place to retreat
that you can frequent. Yeah,because it kind of takes the
decision fatigue and the newnessout of the retreating. So once
(26:03):
you find a good spot, a goodenough spot for you, she
recommends just going to thatfor a while, as like your place
so that you can settle into it alittle bit quicker, more
quickly. So it might have beenstrategic to that Jesus had a
few. Yeah, a few go to spots.
(26:27):
It's good. Oh, and the otherthing about mountain that when
we think of is justsymbolically, you have a little
bit of a different view thanwhen you're on the ground. And
whenever I'm intentional aboutsomething, whether it's little
or big, like if I do go on acouple nights, solo silent
(26:49):
retreat or something like that.
There is this opportunity tolook at my life from a different
vantage point, if I choose toaccept it. That doesn't happen
when I'm just up close andpersonal with all the things I
compulsively do and think aboutand all my habits, you know,
stuff that is hard to even getsome clarity on or see clearly.
(27:12):
So I also like that, thatthere's this image of Jesus kind
of getting a little bit higherup and looking at everything.
Yeah. From from the
Andy Withrow (27:25):
top of Mount Tomini just kind of oversee the
Shelburne Valley and Saanich.
And then you can see all the waydown into Victoria. Yeah. He was
there all night.
Vanessa Caruso (27:39):
I don't like that part.
Andy Withrow (27:40):
Yeah. A little bit of resistance there.
Vanessa Caruso (27:42):
Yeah.
Andy Withrow (27:44):
You're not going to go to Mount told me all
night.
Vanessa Caruso (27:45):
No, I mean, how uncomfortable does it sound to
pull an all nighter before likea big day? Sounds so
uncomfortable.
Andy Withrow (27:54):
Yeah. Yeah.
Because look what happens next?
You know what happens next?
Well, the naming, right? Henamed he calls the names of
disciples. But what we didn'tget to is this is right before
he starts his big sermon. InMatthew is the Sermon on the
Mount in Luke. It's a sermon onthe plane, or similar content.
(28:14):
But yeah, he's gonna He's gonnapreach his big, big sermon
Vanessa Caruso (28:24):
that goes against everything I've ever
heard. Don't stay up all nightbefore you preach. Yes. Or like
do anything. That's your likeyour TED Talk, like you're going
to give your one life TED Talk.
Definitely get sleep the nightbefore. So that part, yeah, that
purchase is a little bit weirdwhat it make what it reminds me
of is our fasting conversation.
(28:47):
When, you know, the disciples gointo town to get something to
eat for lunch. She's a sense oftalking to this woman at the
well. They come back off fromfood, and he's like, I'm good.
And they're like, Oh, someonebrought you food. Because that's
the only possible way you can begood after our little journey.
And he says, I have food to eatthat you don't know about. And
(29:08):
they're like, Wait, someonesecretly brought you food. And
then he knows what they'rethinking. And he's like, Yeah,
my My food is to do the work ofGod.
Andy Withrow (29:22):
It's just stunned silence from the disciples. It's
like, okay,
Vanessa Caruso (29:27):
yeah I know that that is also weird.
So do you think it's a similarthing that Jesus is read? He has
rest and rejuvenation, which weall know is what sleep does for
(29:49):
us, like our bodies need it ourhuman bodies. Our souls need to
catch up to themselves oursubconscious needs it. Yeah. And
yeah, Do you think he's saying Ihave rats that you do not know
about? And plus, I like
Andy Withrow (30:04):
that I like that parallel. Because I mean, this
is prayer is communion indialogue with the Father. And
and just that that idea of himhaving that that connection or
that sense. I associate thosethings with with conviction and
confidence and peace. And so Imight be physically tired. But
(30:27):
if I have those three things,and I'm still doing pretty good.
If I'm tired, I don't have thosethree things, then. Yeah. If I'm
wide awake, I don't have thosethree things then. Yeah. Oh, no.
Not good, either. And so yeah, Iwould think so. I mean, it makes
me think of the John 15 imageryof abiding in the vine. And
(30:58):
yeah, the the, the fruit and thegrowth that comes that comes out
of that. I think the thing Iwondered after, after spending
some time in this text, becauseI think I used to think, oh, he
went to the mountain to prayabout which 12 He should pick.
(31:18):
But after reading this overagain, I wondered, after
praying, did he realize I shouldpick 12 disciples, I should pick
12. closer ones. I like that.
And these are the ones in in thecontext of these days, where
there's increasing conflict,where I'm guessing he's sensing
there's darkness on the horizon.
(31:42):
Whether he knows the cross atthis point or not. He's come and
he's shown some signs, somemighty works. He's announced the
gospel in the kingdom and he'smet with resistance. And so he's
made me think, is he doing themath? Like, okay, I see where
this is going. And then 12disciples, like, Okay, I'm gonna
(32:08):
I better start, I better startapprenticing. I'm going to start
mentoring. I like our version.
Because I can tell my dates arealready numbered. Yeah. And
there's the closeness aspect.
There's the sharing everythingaspect. There's the training and
the mentoring and theapprenticing aspect of this.
(32:37):
And that, just that, that kindof changed a lot of things. For
me
Vanessa Caruso (32:42):
thinking about it that way. What what did it
change in particular?
Andy Withrow (32:45):
Well, I mean, the sense I got out of it was
conflict, which would produceanxiety in me, personally, which
might lead me to prayer. Buthowever, Jesus is processing
that, because I think, I thinkhe is probably a better trustor
than than I am. But still theneed to, to go and commune with
(33:09):
with God, and discern and decidewhat's next. And
yeah, it made me think of goinginto prayer with our agendas and
our lists, which I don't thinkis wrong, but maybe also having
(33:29):
space to, it may seem to go prayand listen to it and discern
maybe what God is speaking to methat isn't obvious to me,
doesn't necessarily occur to mein this moment. Don't pack the
agenda. Nice. Right? So there'skind of that side of it. We got
our prayer requests. So I'msupposed to pray for so and so.
(33:51):
All these things, but also, isthere space of just God? Were
you saying, what's your what'syour agenda and all this? That
was kind of the one of thetakeaways for me?
Vanessa Caruso (34:02):
Yeah, I love that. It's for me, it does
something similar to think ofJesus going to be alone with God
versus Jesus going with someplan in place that he wants to
pray about, you know, like, Oh,I'm gonna, I want to figure out
which disciples to call afterthis. Yeah. Because it kind of
(34:27):
takes the pressure off of thattime. In a way, like if the goal
is to open myself up to God, tolisten for what God might be
saying or doing in my life thatI might not be seeing if I
didn't take time and to letmyself be loved by God, then it
doesn't surprise me that a fruitof that in the morning is that
(34:50):
he acts on his an idea to callthe 12 Yeah. So that The dynamic
between contemplation and actionand contemplation, being more
about opening ourselves to Godand letting ourselves be loved
by God and trusting that goodright action will come from
(35:14):
that. Yeah, yeah, somethingabout that feels really good. It
reminds me of Henry now, Allen'sarticle on this passage, which
I've referenced before on thepodcast, moving from solitude to
community to ministry, we canlink it again. But in the very
first paragraphs, he definesdiscipline, not as something
(35:36):
that we, you know, really try togain or do or exert control
over, but discipline ofsolitude, in this case, being
the effort to create some spacein which God can act in which
God can do something that wehadn't planned on or imagined.
So maybe Jesus was a littlestuck and perplexed about all
(35:59):
the darkness looming. Maybe hewas feeling self conscious or
anxious or not remembering, nottrusting what happened at His
baptism, maybe he was like,doubting that, or something. And
so he goes away for the night toremember who he is. And from
(36:22):
that, yeah,
Andy Withrow (36:22):
well, yeah, it's a similar, it's a similar kind of
feel to it to Mark chapter onewhere he, he goes into
Capernaum. And he teaches in thesynagogue, he casts out a man
with a unclean spirit there,whatever that looked like, in
meant and then. And then heheals Peter's mother in law. And
(36:45):
the whole town comes to his doorwith its need for healing, and
restoration. And he's up allnight healing, and then it says,
early the next morning, longbefore dawn, he got up and went
out to a quiet place, a lonelyplace to pray, and they find him
like, what are you doing? I waslooking for you. The the context
(37:06):
is sort of, look at this greatthing we've got going on. This
is a, this is an amazing, anobvious work of God, let's get
back to it. You know, set upshop here in Capernaum, we can
make a bigger house, you know,with a sign. And he's like, No,
we're going to go to the nexttown. So I can preach there.
(37:26):
Also, that's why I came out.
It's like this. I'm going hereto remember my vocation, who I
belong to, where, where I'mgoing and where I've come from.
And, and I don't know, like,like, I think it's an
interesting question aboutJesus's own doubts or anxieties,
because I don't I don't know ifthat's necessarily necessary
(37:46):
prerequisite for all of thosethings. But at the very least, a
commitment consistent commitmentto, to being in communion with
the Father, and focused on hismission and, and what his
vocation and calling is andsaying, that's what I'm going to
continue to do. So it seems likethis ongoing discernment, right.
Okay, here's what's next andthen eventually, on to Jerusalem
(38:10):
and, and death, as we'll seelater on.
Vanessa Caruso (38:19):
Wow, like you said, If Jesus needed that, that
kind of regular recalibrationserving life with vocation
direction and saying, Am I goingwhere I think I should be going
and where I want to go? Yeah.
Then we need that.
Andy Withrow (38:41):
Yeah, for sure.
And yeah, and I think and Ithink we need that whether or
not we feel anxious,
Vanessa Caruso (38:49):
or have doubt.
But you're saying, yeah, thatthat's, like,
Andy Withrow (38:52):
that's not that's not a necessary prerequisite to
go find a mountain. And praythat there could just be like, I
want to be in constant communionwith with God, and I want to be
discerning and listening forwhat's next thing, my life could
be going quite well. Or therecould be substantial challenges.
(39:13):
Or it could be feeling quiteanxious or struggling or
Vanessa Caruso (39:16):
kind of dry and disconnected. No. Yeah. Like it.
Andy Withrow (39:23):
How about the 12?
About the 12 disciples?
Vanessa Caruso (39:26):
Yeah, I've never really thought about them.
Never. Apart from like, just thegroup like the 12. Yeah. The
individually
Andy Withrow (39:36):
named a couple of Simon's in here. Yeah. Couple of
Julius's. Huh. You get the sensethat in the first century they
didn't have a lot of options fornames Yeah. But the you know,
there's there's so many memories
Vanessa Caruso (39:50):
Yeah. So many Jesus's actually lots of Jesus's
Andy Withrow (39:53):
Yeah, that's right. So I like this The so he
called his disciples and chosefrom the 12, whom He named
apostles, which has this sort ofthis representative nature to
it. Like you're like, already,in the very beginning, before
their apprenticeship is evenstarted, he's naming them as
(40:16):
you're going to be myrepresentatives, I'm going to
send you out, in my name, to domy work, and as in to speak my
words. And that's, that's kindof crazy to me that that's all
like, the end is in view hereof, of what Jesus is going to
do. And we're going to see howfar they have to go in terms of
transformation. And how muchthey don't understand, and are
(40:39):
just disoriented and don't getit. But he's, he's naming them
apostles now, even though it'sgoing to be quite a process of
transformation before. We mightlegitimately call them apostles,
you know, yeah. And, and it'smade me think of Jesus,
(41:05):
commanding or transformingdestinies purposes, and calling
in us that that's what he does.
And that's a big thing in theBible is God is always changing
names. And someone in someone inmy, in my class, made that point
that I hadn't thought about,it's like, oh, is this is this
sort of a is this kind of a, ahint at Jesus identification
(41:29):
with the Father and the divinitybecause God is always changing
names in the Old Testament. Andhere, here we see Jesus
changing. Simon's name is Peter.
Simon, which means read, andPeter, which means rock. Ca,
(41:50):
that's pretty neat. So it's kindof that's kind of a cool
observation. But so you get thatboth individual and communal
here, you are all going to beapostles. Simon, I'd like to
call you Peter Reid, I like tocall you rock. I think that
Jesus still calls disciples tobe with him, in the same way in
(42:10):
the midst in these days, in themidst of his words, and works
that His word is still presentto us and is he's still doing
works in our midst, as a people,as individuals and as a
community. And so there's thisgreat invitation to be with him
to hear him. Maybe command ourdestinies or or our vocations
(42:31):
our callings, our sense of, ofwhat we're doing in the world.
And to be with him to have thissome sort of access to and
that's a lot of what our show isabout, and what we want to kind
of figure out for our ownselves. And for those who are
with those, I guess, who are whoare listening along with us is
(42:53):
okay, well, how do we payattention? How do we get this
inside access, so to speak, and,and know when Jesus is speaking
to us and and following him inthat way? Any last words,
Vanessa?
Vanessa Caruso (43:11):
No, I am. I am really curious about your last
big point like that Jesus stillcalls us because this kind of
being rooted in the story justfeel so different. And it kind
of feels like a one time thing.
You know? So it makes me curioushow, what what still relates
where invitation still? Yeah,alive and well.
Andy Withrow (43:34):
Yeah. Let's make sure we try our best to wrestle
through what that might looklike in our lives next time.
Yeah. I'm good. Great. Thanks.
Okay. All right. Thanks,Vanessa. Thanks, everybody for
tuning in. And we'll catch younext time on the podcast.
Welcome to the bear with me podcast where we
aim to integrate belief andpractice in the Christian life.
Vanessa Caruso (00:18):
Press the button. Going I didn't know what
to say.
Andy Withrow (00:26):
To starting off this 1am I starting off this
one. Well, I can start with ourquestion. You know what we're
doing?
Vanessa Caruso (00:32):
I mean, I know what we're starting with. Great.
So Andy, yeah, what is somethingI can go first? So you can think
of anything to say but no,you've
Andy Withrow (00:45):
already already told you. I've got mine. Okay,
you're ready. I'm ready. Yeah,I'm ready to go. But you still
go first?
Vanessa Caruso (00:50):
Well, now I want you to go first. What is
something that's inspired youlately? Or that has kind of
moved you closer to God?
Something you've watched orlistened to? Read experienced?
Thought about? Yeah.
Andy Withrow (01:11):
Yeah, I'm gonna go with my good friend and current
mentor, Reverend, Reverend Dr. Ibelieve, wow, one of those. So
I get to connect with him everycouple of weeks. And we just met
yesterday. And I don't know,there's just something about
(01:32):
having somebody in your lifewho's regularly connecting with
you hearing your ups and downsasking you good questions,
encouraging you. It's just, Idon't know. It's just
necessary. Good. And fun. And I,you know, like, some, maybe some
(01:59):
people who are verbal processorsget you experienced this a lot,
where it's just like sayingthings even thinking about out
loud to somebody else who yourespect and can kind of kind of
speak some of that back to youor, or say what they're hearing
and it's been, it's been reallygreat. That's so
Vanessa Caruso (02:17):
great. Yeah, you seem happy just even talking
about it or remembering it? Iam. So like, what? How does it
like encourage you? does itinspire you? What word would you
use? Or maybe
Andy Withrow (02:32):
encouraged as a great is probably the one that's
most obvious. I think sort ofconfirming, just confirming
things like, you know how youget in your head a lot. You
don't share it with anybodyelse? Oh, yeah. And you're like,
oh, wait, was that a good ideaor not? But just to, like, oh,
(02:52):
yeah, no, that's sounds great.
You know, or, or to challengeyou, maybe on your thinking.
It's just really helpful kind ofhelps you grow in confidence and
that sort of thing. So that's,that's been really helpful for
me.
Vanessa Caruso (03:05):
Great.
Confirming and encouraging. WhatI loved recently was the
documentary my Octopus teacher.
Andy Withrow (03:15):
Oh, I've seen the preview for that kitty, and I
have oh, you would keep talkingabout how we're gonna watch
that.
Vanessa Caruso (03:23):
Savannah would love it. Yeah, even Iran em it?
Yeah. Leo started it with us. Itis so beautiful. I don't even
have like particular love foranimals. Naturally, like some
people do. Yeah, but thefootage, like how beautiful the
footage is. He has the guy haslike a very gentle, calm
(03:48):
demeanor. And quite serious,too. Yeah. And so the way the
story is told about thisoctopus, and their friendship is
just so moving. I keep thinkingabout it. Well, it is beautiful.
I'm going to watch it again.
Andy Withrow (04:05):
Again. Yes, it's a it's a movie. It's like an hour
and a half or Yeah. Documentary.
Vanessa Caruso (04:12):
Just like so captured my imagination. And
I've never seen a CEO
Andy Withrow (04:19):
is he just did he just do it himself. He just
like, I'm just gonna make thedocumentary or did someone like,
Hey, I understand you have thisrelationship with an octopus.
Vanessa Caruso (04:28):
You know, he's like a film maker guy. Like he
had all the footage. He wasburnt out after so many years of
working like that. Yeah. Yeah.
Cool. That's really cool.
totally recommend it.
Andy Withrow (04:40):
Okay. All right.
All right.
Vanessa Caruso (04:42):
Put that in the show notes.
Andy Withrow (04:44):
Yep. Teacher, definitely Netflix. Yeah.
Vanessa Caruso (04:50):
Okay, well tell us what we're doing today.
Andy Withrow (04:53):
What are we doing today? We're in a discipleship
series. So we've looked at theGreat Commission. That was our
first text Matthew 28, thefamous last words of Jesus, and
we want to spend a series thatwill be a certain number of
episodes to be determined as wego along, but looking at
(05:17):
specifically some discipleshiptexts were, at least to begin
with starting off with whereJesus is having some
interactions with his disciplesand teaching them. And there's
just there's a lot of these alot of the Gospels are made up
of these stories. So obviously,we're not going to go through
them all, but just picking aselect through and I've actually
used sort of the selection thatGreg Ogden from his book,
(05:44):
discipleship essentials, it's aworkbook that you can go through
with people and just basicallyusing using his texts that he
chose to just say, well, let'sjust start here and kind of dig
into these and see what comesout of them. I am someone who
really appreciates and enjoys alectionary of some sort. So
(06:04):
where I don't have to, likedecide myself or which text I'm
going to, to read. So this is asort of lectionary that he's,
he's done the work of likeputting these ones together. So
we're just going to go throughsome of these and the one for
today is Luke chapter six verses12 through 16. And who should
(06:26):
should I read it? Or should youread it?
Vanessa Caruso (06:28):
Oh, go ahead. I
Andy Withrow (06:29):
don't have it.
What translation do you have infront of you?
Vanessa Caruso (06:31):
I like NRSV.
Andy Withrow (06:34):
And our S V, I have the ESV in front, okay.
happens and you don't have yourBible out.
Vanessa Caruso (06:40):
Well, my computer's on it.
Andy Withrow (06:44):
Sitting on your Bible, yeah, it is. It's like,
okay, because we can we're sofor those of you listening, we
are using a program that becausewe're not in the same space. We
are Tella, podcastingtelecasting so we can see each
other because it helps for I'mjust a very big nonverbal
(07:09):
accused person. So it helps meto see Vanessa's face when she's
like, giving me the look like Ihave no idea what you're talking
about. That helps me adjust. Orwhen you're like usually what
you're doing, you're justsmiling with big eyes and say,
Yeah, keep going. But anyway,you're using your Bible to help
(07:31):
prop up your computer. Yes, it'sgood, then I guess I will read.
Please do. Okay, this is Lukechapter six, verses 12 through
16. In these days, Jesus wentout to the mountain to pray. And
(07:52):
all night, he continued inprayer to God. And when day
came, he called his disciplesand chose from them 12, who mean
named apostles, Simon, who meannamed Peter, and Andrew has
brother, and James and John andPhilip, and Bartholomew, and
(08:14):
Matthew and Thomas and James theson of Alphaeus. And Simon, who
was called the Zealot, andJudas, the son of James, and
Judas Iscariot, who became atrader. The end of that
paragraph, there's a lot moreafter that. So let's jump into
(08:38):
this. I just wanted to startwith a bit of a bit of what we
already talked about in theMatthew 28 textures to kind of
help frame again, remind us whatis discipleship? What is being a
disciple, we talked about it interms of being an apprentice to
Jesus, that might be kind of ahelpful image or term that's a
bit more familiar than disciple.
It's kind of used in, in thewider world. And so we're kind
(09:01):
of getting in Luke's version ofJesus story we're getting at the
bit where he's, he's callingspecifically 12 to him. And he's
calling them out of a largercrowd of disciples. So there's
(09:22):
the 12 disciples who maybe wemost famously, are most
popularly usually think of whenwe think of disciples in the
gospels, but there's also thislarger crowd of disciples of
maybe, you know, we know at somepoint he sends out 70 or 72 of
these disciples, so is likemaybe approaching 100 of this
larger crowd of disciples. Sohe's calling these 12 out of
(09:45):
this larger crowd that arefollowing him around and
listening to his teaching. Andwe've talked about disciple
getting to be an insider Writesomeone who is, gets to follow
Jesus around. And maybe nowespecially these 12, they get
(10:05):
special access to Jesus, whichseems really fun and unfair at
the same time. Why do these 12and they get special time and
attention from Jesus. picturethem around the campfire late at
night, you know, asking him, sowhat did you mean when you said,
you know, the kingdom of God islike a pearl, or the kingdom of
(10:29):
God is like this, which we seesome examples of that happening.
And so there's this kind of thatneat aspect. When we think of
our own discipleship, I guess,say, Well, what did that mean
for them? Is there some of thatfor us to do we get? Do we get
some special access, we get somespecial benefit of being with
(10:51):
Jesus, and what might thatlooked like, in the season has
always been so feel free tointerrupt. All your with all
your thoughts and ideas? Great.
So that's just the imaginativespace of trying to enter into
that as disciples of Jesus like,Okay, what's in this for us?
(11:12):
What would what's our role inthis? And what do we get? And I
just want to start with some ofthe setting here. He starts off
by saying in verse 12, in thesedays, and so a natural question
might be, what were those days?
Vanessa Caruso (11:27):
Yes, happening.
What were those days was
Andy Withrow (11:30):
back. Earlier in chapter six. Jesus has after
having some, after specificallycalling Peter and his brother
Andrew to follow him. And Jamesand John, who are all fishermen.
That's in chapter five. That'ssomething we'll look at
(11:50):
specifically. Later on. Hecleanses the leper, he heals a
paralytic. He calls a taxcollector to follow on. He has a
conflict about fasting. He has aconflict about the Sabbath. And
(12:13):
he gets to the point to where heheals a man on the Sabbath. In a
synagogue, and this is a pointof conflict that is so so
significant in terrible from thereligious authorities point of
view that says that they werefilled with fury and disgust
(12:37):
with one another what they mightdo to Jesus. Wow, that's
literally the verse beforearborists in these days, and
it's in that setting in thattime, when there's all this
early on and Jesus ministry andall this conflict is happening.
Already, you're getting sort ofthis. This darkness these dark
(12:57):
clouds looming, have this is notseem to be going well. And it's
at this time that he goes out tothe mountain to pray.
Vanessa Caruso (13:09):
Well, that makes a huge difference that in these
days, he goes out. Because thewhat you said was the verse
right before that is that peopleare furious with him. That's a
very uncomfortable situation forme to be in. Yeah. To think
(13:30):
about being able to concentrateenough to pray. Or maybe it felt
like a necessity. Yeah.
Andy Withrow (13:39):
Like, I can't sleep. I'm gonna go pray. Yeah.
I mean, we're not given thatthat interpretive lens
necessarily, it's not in thetext, but you've got that
setting of high conflict andtension.
Vanessa Caruso (13:57):
Which also makes me wonder, something I've never
wondered about Jesus. But maybepart of that tension and
conflict sparked a desire forhim to have a little bit more of
a community. Like maybe thenaming of the 12. That's a good
(14:19):
point came at that time for kindof that very human reason. I
don't mean human as in anegative reason. I just mean,
that's how we're wired. Howwe're made kind of reason is I
don't want to go through thistotally alone.
Andy Withrow (14:36):
Yeah. Interesting.
Yeah. So that that helps paintthe scene a little bit for me
about maybe what was goingthrough Jesus mind, heart and
mind and imagination. And so heengages in this all night
mountain prayer and themountains in So Galileo So one
(14:57):
of the reasons is region is it'snorth of Jerusalem, which was
just it was kind of the capital,the Centers for the temple was
the political center. Galileewas was North quite a bit. And a
bit more I think, as Iunderstand it a bit more mixed
(15:20):
in terms of religious ideas andpractice. There was a lot of
interaction with people fromother backgrounds. And it was
surrounded there's a lake there.
(15:41):
The Sea of Galilee that's where,you know, Peter and Andrew James
and John are you know, have thatmake their life as fishermen and
all around this big lake isthese little villages these
little towns and just outside ofthat, between the lake outside
(16:02):
the lake and the towns are sortof these these mountains by
mountains, I mean, hills, likeMount told me mount dug off to
check I wonder, I wonder. Imeant to look at my my handy
dandy Bible Bible Atlas and lookat the sort of holes because I'm
guessing I'm picturing themabout the size of Mount told me
(16:25):
not to talk which is what howmany? How would you say the
elevation is?
Vanessa Caruso (16:29):
No, this is what we need. Well, for where Katie?
Yeah,
Andy Withrow (16:33):
yeah. 200 feet, something like that. Now, you
can even walk from the bottom tothe top and about 10 minutes.
Yeah. Yeah. And so he's going tomount told me to pray. And and I
think the first thing I noticedactually even before that is
(16:53):
that he's he's going out ofwherever he is, whatever is
using Pauline Compendium. He isgetting out of out of the
village out of his surroundings.
And Jesus kind of does this indifferent spaces in the gospels,
he gets gets up early in themorning, he goes out to a quiet
place to pray, he gets away fromhis disciples, he gets away from
(17:15):
from the crowds, he gets awayfrom the city. Out of his
setting. And there's something Ithink important, intentional
about that. And I feel like youmight have something to say,
Vanessa Caruso (17:34):
Well, yeah, it just makes me It confirms for me
how different a retreat or anouting is, when I go away from
my normal space, or normalagenda. Like for the table
(17:54):
leadership retreats, how part ofthe spiritual value or the
communal value of going awaytogether is actually going away,
the going away part andeverything that it involves all
the discomfort, kind of beingout of sorts, feeling a little
(18:14):
bit like having to pack forstuff, set up your way, you're
going to sleep in this newspace. I feel like for me some
of that excitement, like Oh, Iget to sleep at this retreat
center for a couple nights stirsup some helpful stuff, but also
(18:36):
that the discomfort or theuneasiness of it kind of stirs
up some stuff that I don't haveto look at if I just do a
retreat at home. Yeah. Sothat's, that's interesting to
realize that Jesus did that aswell, that there's a different
quality of praying, or ofgetting away or solitude when we
(18:59):
do go outside of our normalagendas.
Andy Withrow (19:04):
Yeah, and I'm just thinking about to like, just how
many distractions are around meconstantly. Even if no one else,
like if I'm at home and no oneelse is at the house? There's
usually dishes. Yeah, it'shugely, you know, laundry,
there's there's reminders ofdomestic necessities. Yeah. And,
(19:27):
and getting getting out of thatsetting. I think might might be
something easy to dismiss assomething that's important and
necessary at times. Whether it'seven going for a walk or whether
it's getting to way too bit of asecluded or quiet or lonely
place. There's something maybebuilt into that that has this
(19:53):
spiritual payoff or benefit offocus and attention.
Vanessa Caruso (19:59):
You know, my About this and mean, because
you've read that time managementguy, Adam Grant making that up.
Andy Withrow (20:09):
Oh the get Getting Things Done guy. Yeah. And Cal
Newport. David Allen
Vanessa Caruso (20:14):
Kelo de Bourgh was totally
Andy Withrow (20:18):
close approximation. Yeah, so the
count I read Cal Newports bookwho we've we discussed a few
episodes back with Naomi ondigital minimalism. I didn't
read that one. But I read whenthey came out before called deep
work. And these talks about howwe're increasingly living in a
time and place where we can't dofocused work. We can't do deep
(20:39):
work because of the constantdistractions. Whether they're
digital or just or not, I mean,constant meetings, interruptions
and that sort of thing. And so.
So he talks about countlessexamples. I know, it's true for
me, too, if I want to getfocused work done, it's better
for me to get into the office orget started at 7am or 8am,
(21:02):
before other people start comingin, or it's time for meetings
for the day and that sort ofthing. He says, This isn't
always the case. This issomething that he argues is more
unique to our time and pace oflife, and specifically in North
America, or in the West ingeneral. I don't know. But and
so I just thought that justsomething that was a point of
(21:24):
connection. For me, it's like,if Jesus had to do it in the
first century, probably need todo it in the 21st century is
make some intentionality, Ithink it's one of my, one of the
other things because Jesus isintentional about prayer, about
this connection point with, withGod. And something that came up,
I get to teach this discipleshipclass right now we're going
(21:48):
through the same text, it's beenreally fun, right. And something
that came up in our timetogether that really resonated
with a lot of people is the ideathat Jesus also had to pray to
an invisible God. So we findthat challenging, like speaking
in to someone you can't see oralways sense His presence, that
(22:08):
that Jesus is engaging the samekind of connection.
Vanessa Caruso (22:16):
Wow, I hadn't really thought about that.
Andy Withrow (22:20):
So he's intentional about prayer, he's
getting out of his everydaynormal surroundings, it's
getting to a place where he can,that's literally dark and quiet
all night. And he's getting tothe mountain, which, if, if
(22:43):
you've read through your Bible,you know that the mountain is a
special place all the way fromMoses. Receiving also communing
with God, the top of themountain receiving words from
God at the top of the mountain,with Elijah spends some
(23:03):
significant times at the top ofthe mountains. It's prevalent in
the Psalms is the mean image ofa place to go to connect with
God to be in God's presence.
Yeah, there's sort of that easyidea to dismiss as primitive
like, oh, because it's up, it'scloser to the heavens and, and
that sort of thing. But I thinkalso, there's just even the very
(23:24):
human element of getting up andout. And, and helping aiding our
own senses of feeling closer. Wedo that with people who die, we
go to the place, we spread theirashes, or we buried them,
knowing that they're not reallythere. But it helps us to go
there to feel closer. Yeah. It'snot like God in the Bible is
(23:47):
teaching that God isn't justmore closer on mountains, he's
this close to you. Was the onepsalm 139. Doesn't matter if I
send high above or go to thedepths, depths of the pit,
you're there. You're in bothplaces. So it's so the Bible
isn't thinking that you'rephysically closer to God, if you
(24:09):
go to a mountain, I think it'sacknowledging this phenomenon,
that it helps us it helps oursenses of feeling closer, like
we might feel closer to others.
Yeah. So I think that's a nicething for us to say, hey, yeah,
it's true. God is wherever youare. There's never Yeah, not
(24:32):
with you. But there are maybesome things we can do to help us
feel closer and be more attunedor be more present. Maybe even
just some permission to do someof that stuff.
Vanessa Caruso (24:44):
I love that.
Yeah, it reminds me that youknow, people we live in such a
beautiful place and people kindof have these go to spots of
where they go to have some alonetime. Like, I can think of some
friends who go to the beach byDallas Road, your wife who loves
(25:05):
mountains, or little lookoutpoints over the water. Yeah. And
also, it makes me wonder ifJesus frequented the same
places. You know? Yeah. Yeah.
Andy Withrow (25:22):
Well, it did. I mean, I thought that too,
because your mind remember thethe last one, we looked at
Matthew 28. Go to gallium, youknow, meet you there at a
mountain didn't specify, didn'tname the mountain just at some
Mountain Dew. So you wonderlike, oh, did they have a
special? Did they know like, oh,well, I No worries. Yeah. Yeah,
like the one I know is mountain.
Vanessa Caruso (25:43):
Which reminds me this great book by Ruth Haley
Barton invitation to retreat.
She recommends in there, youknow, finding a place to retreat
that you can frequent. Yeah,because it kind of takes the
decision fatigue and the newnessout of the retreating. So once
(26:03):
you find a good spot, a goodenough spot for you, she
recommends just going to thatfor a while, as like your place
so that you can settle into it alittle bit quicker, more
quickly. So it might have beenstrategic to that Jesus had a
few. Yeah, a few go to spots.
(26:27):
It's good. Oh, and the otherthing about mountain that when
we think of is justsymbolically, you have a little
bit of a different view thanwhen you're on the ground. And
whenever I'm intentional aboutsomething, whether it's little
or big, like if I do go on acouple nights, solo silent
(26:49):
retreat or something like that.
There is this opportunity tolook at my life from a different
vantage point, if I choose toaccept it. That doesn't happen
when I'm just up close andpersonal with all the things I
compulsively do and think aboutand all my habits, you know,
stuff that is hard to even getsome clarity on or see clearly.
(27:12):
So I also like that, thatthere's this image of Jesus kind
of getting a little bit higherup and looking at everything.
Yeah. From from the
Andy Withrow (27:25):
top of Mount Tomini just kind of oversee the
Shelburne Valley and Saanich.
And then you can see all the waydown into Victoria. Yeah. He was
there all night.
Vanessa Caruso (27:39):
I don't like that part.
Andy Withrow (27:40):
Yeah. A little bit of resistance there.
Vanessa Caruso (27:42):
Yeah.
Andy Withrow (27:44):
You're not going to go to Mount told me all
night.
Vanessa Caruso (27:45):
No, I mean, how uncomfortable does it sound to
pull an all nighter before likea big day? Sounds so
uncomfortable.
Andy Withrow (27:54):
Yeah. Yeah.
Because look what happens next?
You know what happens next?
Well, the naming, right? Henamed he calls the names of
disciples. But what we didn'tget to is this is right before
he starts his big sermon. InMatthew is the Sermon on the
Mount in Luke. It's a sermon onthe plane, or similar content.
(28:14):
But yeah, he's gonna He's gonnapreach his big, big sermon
Vanessa Caruso (28:24):
that goes against everything I've ever
heard. Don't stay up all nightbefore you preach. Yes. Or like
do anything. That's your likeyour TED Talk, like you're going
to give your one life TED Talk.
Definitely get sleep the nightbefore. So that part, yeah, that
purchase is a little bit weirdwhat it make what it reminds me
of is our fasting conversation.
(28:47):
When, you know, the disciples gointo town to get something to
eat for lunch. She's a sense oftalking to this woman at the
well. They come back off fromfood, and he's like, I'm good.
And they're like, Oh, someonebrought you food. Because that's
the only possible way you can begood after our little journey.
And he says, I have food to eatthat you don't know about. And
(29:08):
they're like, Wait, someonesecretly brought you food. And
then he knows what they'rethinking. And he's like, Yeah,
my My food is to do the work ofGod.
Andy Withrow (29:22):
It's just stunned silence from the disciples. It's
like, okay,
Vanessa Caruso (29:27):
yeah I know that that is also weird.
So do you think it's a similarthing that Jesus is read? He has
rest and rejuvenation, which weall know is what sleep does for
(29:49):
us, like our bodies need it ourhuman bodies. Our souls need to
catch up to themselves oursubconscious needs it. Yeah. And
yeah, Do you think he's saying Ihave rats that you do not know
about? And plus, I like
Andy Withrow (30:04):
that I like that parallel. Because I mean, this
is prayer is communion indialogue with the Father. And
and just that that idea of himhaving that that connection or
that sense. I associate thosethings with with conviction and
confidence and peace. And so Imight be physically tired. But
(30:27):
if I have those three things,and I'm still doing pretty good.
If I'm tired, I don't have thosethree things, then. Yeah. If I'm
wide awake, I don't have thosethree things then. Yeah. Oh, no.
Not good, either. And so yeah, Iwould think so. I mean, it makes
me think of the John 15 imageryof abiding in the vine. And
(30:58):
yeah, the the, the fruit and thegrowth that comes that comes out
of that. I think the thing Iwondered after, after spending
some time in this text, becauseI think I used to think, oh, he
went to the mountain to prayabout which 12 He should pick.
(31:18):
But after reading this overagain, I wondered, after
praying, did he realize I shouldpick 12 disciples, I should pick
12. closer ones. I like that.
And these are the ones in in thecontext of these days, where
there's increasing conflict,where I'm guessing he's sensing
there's darkness on the horizon.
(31:42):
Whether he knows the cross atthis point or not. He's come and
he's shown some signs, somemighty works. He's announced the
gospel in the kingdom and he'smet with resistance. And so he's
made me think, is he doing themath? Like, okay, I see where
this is going. And then 12disciples, like, Okay, I'm gonna
(32:08):
I better start, I better startapprenticing. I'm going to start
mentoring. I like our version.
Because I can tell my dates arealready numbered. Yeah. And
there's the closeness aspect.
There's the sharing everythingaspect. There's the training and
the mentoring and theapprenticing aspect of this.
(32:37):
And that, just that, that kindof changed a lot of things. For
me
Vanessa Caruso (32:42):
thinking about it that way. What what did it
change in particular?
Andy Withrow (32:45):
Well, I mean, the sense I got out of it was
conflict, which would produceanxiety in me, personally, which
might lead me to prayer. Buthowever, Jesus is processing
that, because I think, I thinkhe is probably a better trustor
than than I am. But still theneed to, to go and commune with
(33:09):
with God, and discern and decidewhat's next. And
yeah, it made me think of goinginto prayer with our agendas and
our lists, which I don't thinkis wrong, but maybe also having
(33:29):
space to, it may seem to go prayand listen to it and discern
maybe what God is speaking to methat isn't obvious to me,
doesn't necessarily occur to mein this moment. Don't pack the
agenda. Nice. Right? So there'skind of that side of it. We got
our prayer requests. So I'msupposed to pray for so and so.
(33:51):
All these things, but also, isthere space of just God? Were
you saying, what's your what'syour agenda and all this? That
was kind of the one of thetakeaways for me?
Vanessa Caruso (34:02):
Yeah, I love that. It's for me, it does
something similar to think ofJesus going to be alone with God
versus Jesus going with someplan in place that he wants to
pray about, you know, like, Oh,I'm gonna, I want to figure out
which disciples to call afterthis. Yeah. Because it kind of
(34:27):
takes the pressure off of thattime. In a way, like if the goal
is to open myself up to God, tolisten for what God might be
saying or doing in my life thatI might not be seeing if I
didn't take time and to letmyself be loved by God, then it
doesn't surprise me that a fruitof that in the morning is that
(34:50):
he acts on his an idea to callthe 12 Yeah. So that The dynamic
between contemplation and actionand contemplation, being more
about opening ourselves to Godand letting ourselves be loved
by God and trusting that goodright action will come from
(35:14):
that. Yeah, yeah, somethingabout that feels really good. It
reminds me of Henry now, Allen'sarticle on this passage, which
I've referenced before on thepodcast, moving from solitude to
community to ministry, we canlink it again. But in the very
first paragraphs, he definesdiscipline, not as something
(35:36):
that we, you know, really try togain or do or exert control
over, but discipline ofsolitude, in this case, being
the effort to create some spacein which God can act in which
God can do something that wehadn't planned on or imagined.
So maybe Jesus was a littlestuck and perplexed about all
(35:59):
the darkness looming. Maybe hewas feeling self conscious or
anxious or not remembering, nottrusting what happened at His
baptism, maybe he was like,doubting that, or something. And
so he goes away for the night toremember who he is. And from
(36:22):
that, yeah,
Andy Withrow (36:22):
well, yeah, it's a similar, it's a similar kind of
feel to it to Mark chapter onewhere he, he goes into
Capernaum. And he teaches in thesynagogue, he casts out a man
with a unclean spirit there,whatever that looked like, in
meant and then. And then heheals Peter's mother in law. And
(36:45):
the whole town comes to his doorwith its need for healing, and
restoration. And he's up allnight healing, and then it says,
early the next morning, longbefore dawn, he got up and went
out to a quiet place, a lonelyplace to pray, and they find him
like, what are you doing? I waslooking for you. The the context
(37:06):
is sort of, look at this greatthing we've got going on. This
is a, this is an amazing, anobvious work of God, let's get
back to it. You know, set upshop here in Capernaum, we can
make a bigger house, you know,with a sign. And he's like, No,
we're going to go to the nexttown. So I can preach there.
(37:26):
Also, that's why I came out.
It's like this. I'm going hereto remember my vocation, who I
belong to, where, where I'mgoing and where I've come from.
And, and I don't know, like,like, I think it's an
interesting question aboutJesus's own doubts or anxieties,
because I don't I don't know ifthat's necessarily necessary
(37:46):
prerequisite for all of thosethings. But at the very least, a
commitment consistent commitmentto, to being in communion with
the Father, and focused on hismission and, and what his
vocation and calling is andsaying, that's what I'm going to
continue to do. So it seems likethis ongoing discernment, right.
Okay, here's what's next andthen eventually, on to Jerusalem
(38:10):
and, and death, as we'll seelater on.
Vanessa Caruso (38:19):
Wow, like you said, If Jesus needed that, that
kind of regular recalibrationserving life with vocation
direction and saying, Am I goingwhere I think I should be going
and where I want to go? Yeah.
Then we need that.
Andy Withrow (38:41):
Yeah, for sure.
And yeah, and I think and Ithink we need that whether or
not we feel anxious,
Vanessa Caruso (38:49):
or have doubt.
But you're saying, yeah, thatthat's, like,
Andy Withrow (38:52):
that's not that's not a necessary prerequisite to
go find a mountain. And praythat there could just be like, I
want to be in constant communionwith with God, and I want to be
discerning and listening forwhat's next thing, my life could
be going quite well. Or therecould be substantial challenges.
(39:13):
Or it could be feeling quiteanxious or struggling or
Vanessa Caruso (39:16):
kind of dry and disconnected. No. Yeah. Like it.
Andy Withrow (39:23):
How about the 12?
About the 12 disciples?
Vanessa Caruso (39:26):
Yeah, I've never really thought about them.
Never. Apart from like, just thegroup like the 12. Yeah. The
individually
Andy Withrow (39:36):
named a couple of Simon's in here. Yeah. Couple of
Julius's. Huh. You get the sensethat in the first century they
didn't have a lot of options fornames Yeah. But the you know,
there's there's so many memories
Vanessa Caruso (39:50):
Yeah. So many Jesus's actually lots of Jesus's
Andy Withrow (39:53):
Yeah, that's right. So I like this The so he
called his disciples and chosefrom the 12, whom He named
apostles, which has this sort ofthis representative nature to
it. Like you're like, already,in the very beginning, before
their apprenticeship is evenstarted, he's naming them as
(40:16):
you're going to be myrepresentatives, I'm going to
send you out, in my name, to domy work, and as in to speak my
words. And that's, that's kindof crazy to me that that's all
like, the end is in view hereof, of what Jesus is going to
do. And we're going to see howfar they have to go in terms of
transformation. And how muchthey don't understand, and are
(40:39):
just disoriented and don't getit. But he's, he's naming them
apostles now, even though it'sgoing to be quite a process of
transformation before. We mightlegitimately call them apostles,
you know, yeah. And, and it'smade me think of Jesus,
(41:05):
commanding or transformingdestinies purposes, and calling
in us that that's what he does.
And that's a big thing in theBible is God is always changing
names. And someone in someone inmy, in my class, made that point
that I hadn't thought about,it's like, oh, is this is this
sort of a is this kind of a, ahint at Jesus identification
(41:29):
with the Father and the divinitybecause God is always changing
names in the Old Testament. Andhere, here we see Jesus
changing. Simon's name is Peter.
Simon, which means read, andPeter, which means rock. Ca,
(41:50):
that's pretty neat. So it's kindof that's kind of a cool
observation. But so you get thatboth individual and communal
here, you are all going to beapostles. Simon, I'd like to
call you Peter Reid, I like tocall you rock. I think that
Jesus still calls disciples tobe with him, in the same way in
(42:10):
the midst in these days, in themidst of his words, and works
that His word is still presentto us and is he's still doing
works in our midst, as a people,as individuals and as a
community. And so there's thisgreat invitation to be with him
to hear him. Maybe command ourdestinies or or our vocations
(42:31):
our callings, our sense of, ofwhat we're doing in the world.
And to be with him to have thissome sort of access to and
that's a lot of what our show isabout, and what we want to kind
of figure out for our ownselves. And for those who are
with those, I guess, who are whoare listening along with us is
(42:53):
okay, well, how do we payattention? How do we get this
inside access, so to speak, and,and know when Jesus is speaking
to us and and following him inthat way? Any last words,
Vanessa?
Vanessa Caruso (43:11):
No, I am. I am really curious about your last
big point like that Jesus stillcalls us because this kind of
being rooted in the story justfeel so different. And it kind
of feels like a one time thing.
You know? So it makes me curioushow, what what still relates
where invitation still? Yeah,alive and well.
Andy Withrow (43:34):
Yeah. Let's make sure we try our best to wrestle
through what that might looklike in our lives next time.
Yeah. I'm good. Great. Thanks.
Okay. All right. Thanks,Vanessa. Thanks, everybody for
tuning in. And we'll catch younext time on the podcast.
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