March 31, 2022 • 61 mins
About one third of all of Jesus’ teachings are in parable form. Parables are illustrations, stories to “throw alongside” of life to make a comparison. In Matthew 13 Jesus uses parables exclusively to show HOW God’s hope for creation will come about. And it’s not what we might expect!
In this episode we look at the first and, in some ways, primary parable of the Sower. 3 Big ideas about this parable are featured:
1. Why is the sower so reckless with his seed? Does it reveal a God who is eager to connect with us? Might it be that God more talkative than we thought? And maybe it shows at that God’s words might show up in places we don’t expect. How would that change our approach to spirituality if we believed God was speaking to us more than we realized
2. Why does God’s Word seem to be hidden? And why does Jesus’ teaching appear to be failing? Jesus answers this question in the parable for his own time but what might this tell us about the effectiveness of Jesus’ words for today?
3. What’s the payoff for bearing with all this apparent failure? Jesus’ story points us to a surprisingly high rate of return.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Andy Withrow (00:02):
Welcome to the bear with me podcast on table
radio, where we aim to integratebelief and practice in the
Christian mind
Vanessa Caruso (00:29):
Great, great.
I'm ready. I got my coffee.
Nice. You haven't pressed startyet. We're back. Yeah, look, you
press start. Yes. Wow, that's sogood. We're recording. We are
recording. Yeah, I asked if youhad a Bible. Yeah, there's
there's a lot in here. Yeah,there's Yeah. We're and I got my
coffee. You've got your cream.
It's 2022 it is it's a NewYear's is our first recording of
(00:51):
2022 it took longer than wethought because yeah, is for
those listening. 30 years fromnow, there was this pandemic.
And we're in the Omicron phaseof the pandemic just to kind of
locate us in history. And so itjust delays things I don't know
if people out there are noticingthis but just it can slow down
(01:12):
lives.
Andy Withrow (01:17):
So that sort of happened it here we are. Yes.
And
Vanessa Caruso (01:21):
we're drinking galloping goose coffee which
drinking
Andy Withrow (01:25):
coffee which is a local brand pretty new. Really
good.
Vanessa Caruso (01:28):
You can find it at root cellar. Really cool.
Metal
Andy Withrow (01:31):
recommended. tins.
Yes. Good. Responsiblepackaging. and tasty. Yeah, I
like it. Me too. Here we go.
Okay.
So we're gonna do we decidedwe're gonna do parables? Yes. We
(01:51):
don't have know how manyepisodes we're going to dedicate
to it. But we'll just see. We'llsee how it goes. And did you
know Vanessa, that almost a fullthird of Jesus teachings or
sayings are parables? No, a fullthird. Now that's a lot. That is
something he did some of thetime. In fact, it says
explicitly in the Gospels. Atone of several points in the
(02:14):
gospels, he spoke nothing to thecrowds except through parables
that is radical.
Like, that's all he did. It's atsome points, at least in his
ministry.
Vanessa Caruso (02:25):
Can you imagine if like a book, a book tour,
like an author on a book tourspoke nothing to the crowds
except through parables.
Andy Withrow (02:33):
Yeah. Do you think they get annoyed? Yes. Yeah,
yeah. Like illustrations, likecomparisons? What can you hear
this too. And I was reading howthis was a It looks like this is
a pretty common practice ofrabbis in Jesus day, and around
like he wasn't, he wasn'tinventing a new form of teaching
(02:55):
or going rogue with his stylethat this was pretty common.
And, and it was, it was popularin large part because it was
easy to understand you're tryingto take something that is very
abstract and unknown. Who isGod? What is God like? And how
do we see God and connect withGod? In our everyday lives? How
(03:18):
do we understand what'shappening around us? And you
compare it with something thatis known farming in Jesus day
especially, yeah. And or, or, orlosing something in your
kitchen? Or making bread or youknow, all these or or having
(03:38):
having a dysfunctional family,you know, a son who leaves and
takes his inheritance with them,you know, all these all these
things that are like at leasteither happened to people or
they do regularly or they canhave an imagination for what it
would be like if something likethat happened.
Vanessa Caruso (03:54):
Doesn't that seem so simple? In a way
Andy Withrow (04:00):
Yeah. Yeah. And accessible Yeah, whether you are
whether you are another rabbiwho had done all this learning
and study you could stillunderstand it or whether you
weren't you know, any anybodyelse. And so it's just
fascinating. He spent the weeklooking at the gods who have a
(04:21):
third of his teachings inparable form. And then there's
these bits were saying, well, hedidn't teach anything except in
parables. Wow. Now we're gonnawe're gonna look at the parable
specifically in Matthews,chapter 13. And just kind of
kind of confine ourselves tothose set of parables. So
otherwise, we're just like, Idon't know what like gold
(04:42):
summoning pick everywhere.
That'd be a fun different way todo it. But we're gonna stick
here and kind of let that be ourboundaries. And I think that's
kind of fun and helpful becauseit there's there's a setting
there. There's something that'shappened before we get to
Matthew chapter 13. And specificWhat's happened before the two
chapters 11 and 12, is thatJesus is going all over Israel.
(05:03):
And he's preaching in theirsynagogues. He's teaching in
their towns, healing people allover the place. He might get
tempted, and his disciples mightget, and let's just set up shop
here in Capernaum people willcome to us, we're really popular
and yes, nope, is not what I'vecome for. I've come to teach.
(05:26):
Let's go to the next towns. Andin Matthew 1112, he's been doing
this has been going all over.
And in 11, and 12, you see,there starts to be some
resistance to his teaching,especially among the
authorities, but not just theauthorities. They're resisting
(05:50):
his teaching. They're conspiringhow to how to stop him how to
get him into trouble. And thenby the end of chapter 12, just
before chapter 13 starts, hisown family tries to come in. So
it's one thing to have, like,run up against opposition, from
from from others outside. Butthen when your own family is
(06:14):
like concerned, and like, Jesus,you got to stop.
Vanessa Caruso (06:18):
What do they I don't know that what what are
you referring to?
Andy Withrow (06:21):
It is his home family comes to get them? That's
when they say come with that.
One Mark's gospel, it's moreit's more explicit. It's the
same theme. Yeah. And they'recoming because they're concerned
that he's, he's not he's beenout of his mind. Really? Yeah.
Like, well, it's all thisbecause I think in part because
there's this growing oppositionand their concern for safety.
(06:41):
And he's opposing, essentiallythe opposing the temple in
Jerusalem. And, and yeah, thosekinds of when you say it like
that, and he's got all thispopular movement that's within
but it's causing all this isstarting to cause a lot of
friction. And so he's got allthis. All this opposition and
all this tension building. Andit kind of culminates the last
(07:07):
scene with his family comingtogether. And then we get this
scene here in Matthew 13. And wedon't even necessarily read the
first part, because we're goingto read the first explanation of
the parallel here in a minute,but says he left the house that
he was in and he went out by thesea. And when I read that is
like, I just had this picture,like, with those themes in the
(07:28):
background? Yeah, it's like,just going out alone. Yeah, by
the water. And if it was me, I'dbe like, I'd be a little mopey.
Yeah, I might, or I might befrustrated, or might be angry or
might be reevaluating. Am I onthe right path? Oh, yes. Things.
I don't know what's in Jesushead at this point. He's out
(07:49):
there alone by the sea. But thenthe crowds come as they
inevitably do, because they wantmore. And that's when he says
this. That's when he starts tosuffer in Matthew, this is the
first there's little momentswhere yes, kind of these
parabolic moments, where is itkind of these teachings
comparing things, but this iswhere he launched his full into
just teaching parables now. Andso I don't think it's
coincidental a lot. A lot ofpeople don't think it's
(08:09):
coincidental that you've got allthis opposition, you've got sort
of this initial rejection. Andnow, okay, I'm gonna speak in
parables. Wow. And, and I thinkin part, it's got to be because
he's, he has meaning up againstresistance. And so this is, this
is a way kind of around, like,around some of that conflict,
(08:30):
that direct tension, even thoughmore is gonna come later. But
as, as he's going to explain tohis disciples, we're not going
to get to it today. It's, it'salso, it's also an approach to
to teaching that force, iteither forces people to kind of
(08:50):
buy in and in and follow Jesus,or it might actually repel them.
So yeah, there's there's andthat's historically go back and
read the the point of rabbinicparables is it forces it the
goal of parables is to is toengage a decision on the hearers
part.
Vanessa Caruso (09:11):
Wow, interesting. Are you?
Are you in? Are you out? Yeah.
Are you are you listening andyou're hearing this in? Do you
get it and you're gonna followor are you going to are going to
reject this? Yeah. And so that'svery much a theme and in Matthew
13, that's so interesting.
Andy Withrow (09:30):
But so you've kind of got this this duality where
parable, the the point of perilscan can push people away. But
it's also meant to pull peoplein. It's kind of this dual
repelling, attracting typething. And it is kind of like if
someone went on tour and onlyspoke in parables, some people
get really frustrated, and notlike it. Yeah, maybe provocative
(09:54):
like, what, what is he doing orwhat are you doing? Why is she
doing that? Yeah, and forcepeople to kind of think of it
more and try to make the kind ofsee the connections that are
being made. Anyway, theseparables are all about the
Kingdom of God or the kingdom,Matthew 13. Matthew 13. Okay,
like, that's his. That's histhing that he wants to talk
(10:16):
about to teach and to compareall these everyday things to
farming, bread baking all thatstuff fishing.
Vanessa Caruso (10:32):
Yeah. The usual the usual.
Andy Withrow (10:37):
So should we read it? Sure. Let's read that. Okay,
so the basically what Jesusstarts out with, with a very
famous parable, the parable ofthe sower, the sower and the
seed are the four types of soildepending on who you talk to.
Okay. And I'll sum up theparable. And then Vanessa,
you're going to read the Jesusexplaining the parable aside to
(11:00):
His disciples, He doesn'texplain it to the crowd. Okay.
Which is interesting. He'sassigned to His disciples in a
private moment. He's understand,you know, here, the parable of
the sower. And then he explainswhat he doesn't do for others
doesn't do for others. Yeah.
There's something else going onthere. I think it's that he? I
think he's because he saysexplicitly this is for it. This
(11:23):
explanation is for insiders,insiders get special info. And
that might seem unfair. But Ithink the whole point is, in
will we look at the kind of theparagraph in between this
parable and its explanation.
We'll look forward a bit furtherby think the whole point is that
(11:43):
you, you can't understand thekingdom, apart from the king.
Oh, apart from knowing the king,not just knowing about the king,
but an intimate relationalconnection to the king. I think
that's the point of his Isaiahquote, that we'll get to in in a
couple episodes of why he'sspeaking in parables in what he
(12:06):
wants to happen out of it.
Vanessa Caruso (12:08):
I want to know that now that I can wait, well,
this is
Andy Withrow (12:11):
this is the this is the the spoiler, okay, is he
wants people to to follow him tobe to be insiders, with him to
say, I'm going to trust you. Theprerequisite to understanding
is, is this trusting loyalty orthis allegiance? So it's why
(12:32):
he's favoring instead of like,you trust me, you're getting
your you know, the king. So youget, you get the inside
information.
Vanessa Caruso (12:40):
So the parables kind of like woo people in so
you know, like, we're like
Andy Withrow (12:43):
provocative yadgir to them to make people think and
wonder, and hopefully, pressedin.
Vanessa Caruso (12:53):
Yeah, like that.
I'm thinking of when you hearsomething and you like, can't
shake it. You know, that when asong lyric or a story or
something, and for some reason,for a couple days, you're just
like, oh, I can't I can't shakethat. Like, I don't know what it
means totally. Or why it was sador but something about it. So
the parables Whoo. But itdoesn't end there. You're saying
(13:16):
the point is
Andy Withrow (13:20):
to, I think, to come to be to come inside? Yeah.
To follow. Yeah. And to and tohave I think that there isn't a
It's not enough to have anintellectual knowledge, but even
a right theology. There. There'sGod desires more than that. Can
(13:42):
actual relational connection. Onsome level, I think that's a big
part of what this dynamic isabout. And in the point of the
parables of bringing people in,even though it's also going to
repel others. Yeah. And that's,that's where you get the
confusing quote for Isaiah.
There's a lot of teasers for acouple episodes from now. So
just Zandi. Just wait, well,we're getting sucked into it.
(14:05):
But we'll get ready. We'll put apin in that. Yeah. And let's
because he starts this parablebefore he gets to that
explanation. So we're going tolook at this parable, first of
all, backup and then in comeback, okay. So he starts out,
I'm going to try to sum up frommemory. Oh, how well you do. And
then you could read the Jesusexplanation, but a sore went out
to sow and as he sowing seeds,some fell on the path and
(14:29):
couldn't take root. So birdscome down and eaten, gone.
Second, then he keeps sowing andsome fall on the rocky soil.
Yeah, and they can't take deeproot but a little bit of roots
come up and they spring upquickly. But then as soon as the
sun comes out, they get scorchedand they wither up. Yeah. And
(14:51):
then some seed falls on thisweed infested ground and It gets
some roots. But as it comes up,it gets choked, so it can't
grow. And then finally, someseed falls on good soil and it
takes root and it bears itproduces a crop, Some 100 Some
16 Some 30 fold. Yeah. Which isit's quite a bit. Yes. So, then
(15:17):
he has an explains to hisdisciples in private, why he's
speaking in parables, whichwe'll get to in a bit. Yeah. And
then he explains to them, theparable of the sower,
Vanessa Caruso (15:33):
yes. Then he says, This is verse 18, in
chapter 13. Here then theparable of the sower. When
anyone hears the word of thekingdom and does not understand
it, the evil one comes andsnatches away what has been sown
in his heart. This is what wassown along the path. And for
(15:55):
what was sown on rocky ground,this is the one who hears the
word and immediately receives itwith joy. Yet he has no root in
himself, but endures for awhile, and when tribulation or
persecution arises on account ofthe word, immediately, he falls
away. As for what was sown amongthorns, this is the one who
hears the word, but the cares ofthe world and the deceitfulness
(16:17):
of riches choke the word, and itproves unfruitful. As for what
was sown on good soil, this isthe one who hears the word and
understands it. He under heindeed bears fruit and yields in
one case, 100 fold and another60. And another 30. Interesting.
Andy Withrow (16:42):
Yeah, so which we talked about first. So the
wheat, so we were talking abouthow I think this isn't a two
parter. Because the soils aresort of a big picture one, and
then there's kind of looking atthe four different just for
clear distinctions of sowingseed into different types of
soil. Yeah, that kind ofdeserves its own its own focus.
So I thought we just look atthree big ideas and the big
(17:06):
picture of the parable today,and then we'll save the the
soils for next time.
Vanessa Caruso (17:12):
That sounds great.
Andy Withrow (17:13):
So my first big idea, Vanessa, and I'm really
interested what you think aboutthis, and we've talked a little
bit about it in Advent, becausewe're talking about the
connection to this parable inparticular, is that I'm not I'm
not really sure what ancientfarming practices were like, but
this sower seems prettyindiscriminate.
Vanessa Caruso (17:34):
Certainly not careful. No, it's not super
strategic.
Yeah. Yeah. It's like, I don'tknow how farming works. Let's
just throw it out there. Justthrow it wherever.
It's fine. You have to have alot of seeds to do that. Yeah.
Yeah. That's
Andy Withrow (17:50):
another thing is like, doesn't seem overly
concerned. There's not nodoesn't have a poverty mentality
around the seeds. No, like,maybe he's got some maybe that's
the thing. It's like, Man, Ihave so much seeds. I don't know
what to do with them. I've givensome to my neighbors. Yeah, I
can't give them away. Let's justthrow it everywhere and see what
comes up. Yeah. I mean, thatthat would make sense. That
(18:12):
would make more sense. Yeah. Butthere's no sense of scarcity
with the seed, like, oh, I needto plot my rows. I'm gonna put
one here. And one here. Onehere. We're not precious my
perception of how to garden inyour backyard. Yeah. Because
that's what I've seen. Yeah. Myexperience. Yeah. So. So that's
(18:32):
interesting. It really, it makesme wonder if that's part of
something meant to be a part ofthe point. It reminds me of just
the historical context, or theliterary context here in
Matthew, is that Jesus has beenliterally going over the entire
land of his people. Yeah. Everysynagogue, every town. Lee's,
(18:57):
he's on tour, he's going up anddown and all around and teaching
everywhere, doesn't end like itdoesn't matter. Pretty
indiscriminate, maybe to people,I think, why are you wasting
time? They're not gonna. Notgonna be interested?
Vanessa Caruso (19:11):
Yeah, I like that. You pointed that out. I
didn't ever make that connectionbetween what was happening in
Jesus's walk around life, youknow, and this parable, they
seem very related, especiallythinking of the disciples.
Probably saying there is a moreefficient way. Yeah. And more
(19:32):
sustainable. Yeah. A lessexhausting way of doing this.
And that's letting the peoplewho are ready, like find us.
Yeah, you know,
Andy Withrow (19:40):
yeah. Yeah.
Vanessa Caruso (19:44):
It does. So initially, it makes me think of
this is like skipping to me,which is not always the most
helpful when reading the Bible.
But just how many people andsituations I prejudge As
something Yeah, like I've neverbeen part of PTA at school,
(20:04):
because I just think it's PAC oroh, sorry,
Andy Withrow (20:12):
Americanness.
Vanessa Caruso (20:15):
It's embarrassing. Pack it is your
pack here. Yeah. See, I wouldknow that if I went. But that's
just an example of, I just havelike this image of what that's
like and what it's about and thekinds of, let's be honest moms
who are part of it. And for goodand for bad, I just think I'm
(20:38):
not one of those, you know,like, so there's a lot of
prejudging in my life aboutpeople in situations. And this
doesn't. This seems like Jesusis coming from a different place
very
Andy Withrow (20:53):
different. Yeah, like it cuz I mean, we would
even say, and again, I'm not, Idon't know, how to compare,
like, what this would have meantto a first century farmer,
peasant person. Go get me this.
Vanessa Caruso (21:08):
Maybe it's common practice. It doesn't.
Andy Withrow (21:10):
But for us, it's like, you're much more seems
like you're much morediscriminant. And this just
seems like a bad way to garden.
Or farm. Yeah. And so if that ispart of the point, it does seem
like that's a bit that would bea bit challenging for the years.
Or maybe even a bit funny. Like,that's ridiculous. Why would
(21:34):
they, you know, yeah, what acrazy what a waste of time.
Yeah, waste of time, waste ofseed, and all that sort of
thing. And so that's, that'spretty, that's pretty
fascinating. And it also made methink of, maybe even our, in our
own history, or in our ownlives. If that's really like,
we, my experience as a pastor,both personally and then just
(22:00):
hearing from other people, isthat there seems to be this
sense that my Why is God soquiet? Why is God so silent?
Absent, absent? It's a realfeeling. Yeah. But it makes me
start to wonder if, if that's ifthat's the right paradigm or the
right right frame, to think ofGod in his his God, quiet. Shy?
(22:24):
doesn't like to talk a lot.
That's a big sign. I suppose Ishould go reveal myself to
people. Or say something tosomeone. Yeah. Or is it the
other way around? Yeah, goodquestion. Is God kind of
(22:46):
talkative, maybe a bit more likeyou're talkative friend? Yeah. I
guess is God's personality suchthat he really loves to disclose
himself to reveal himself tospeak. Was came up in the Advent
one with John the Baptist. Oh,yeah. We're the word of the Lord
(23:08):
came to like all this list ofEmperor's and Tet sharks and the
high priests, you know, thepeople in charge of the church
or the temple? Like, where's theword of the who's got speaking
to and it's John in thewilderness. And it raised the
question like, Well, is it thathe's just speaking to John? Or
is John the only one who's who'sin a position? To listen?
Vanessa Caruso (23:30):
Yeah, to hear it in the space was this was that
seed scattered? Yeah. Soundeverywhere
Andy Withrow (23:39):
I didn't this isn't a text I have ready but
just popped into my head thePsalms. Where is it Isaiah, one
of the prophets the Lord goinglooking to and fro the earth
for, for something I canremember for someone would
listen or for a heart that ismaths pretty look this one up?
(24:02):
Yeah, it's just it's in there.
But I can't quite I don't knowquite the specifics of it. But
like, there's this searching forwho's going to receive who's
going to listen, who's going tohear that? I think that centers
around the heart, or the seatof, of belief and trust and
imagination, loyalty in the menthat are tied to imagination and
(24:24):
all the rest? Yeah.
Vanessa Caruso (24:27):
So what is it?
What does it do for you to toapply that to your life and your
pastoral life, that maybe thereare all these seeds, even in the
places in ways that you assumeGod's quiet or silent or distant
or absent? That maybe you'rekind of looking at it upside
(24:50):
down? And what what appears tobe a vacancy is actually there's
it's actually full of reachingout to you or signs or?
Andy Withrow (25:06):
Yeah, I mean, even the question I think helps with
an imagination shift, like, whatif God is doing everything every
day to, to, to reveal Himself tome or to our community or to
this city or to this world? Whatif that's what true, and we just
haven't been very good atlearning how to be still? How to
(25:29):
listen. Maybe some of itsintuitive, and, and, and
there's, there's a giftingaspect to it. But maybe some of
its just skill and practice andlearning. So, so, I would go to
the classical disciplines, ofhow through history has the
(25:51):
church, have people come intoand learn to, to listen, and
recognize and have confidence?
And because that's those arekind of big ones, right? Yeah.
Like, oh, God, I think God isspeaking through this moment, or
this person, or, or, or this,this passage of Scripture that
(26:12):
I'm reading or whatever,
Vanessa Caruso (26:13):
yeah. Yeah, you're helping me to realize
that, in this parable with theexplanation, one of the
interpretations could be thatthe Word of God is in places we
don't expect, we expect the Wordof God to be in the Bible. But
we might not expect the Word ofGod to be in a pretty
(26:37):
complicated relationship.
Andy Withrow (26:40):
Yeah, well, if we think that God is incarnational,
if we believe that God isincarnational, that is he, he
his nature is to be present tohis creation in meaningful
intangible ways. And if thescriptures are teaching us that,
then then it, it would train ourimaginations and our
expectations to say, okay, thatI'm going to start to look for
(27:03):
you, in my relationships, and inthe events of my life. Yeah. But
for me, that's very, that's verydifficult. Because why? Because
I've lived my whole life. And Ihaven't. That hasn't been a
(27:24):
normal habit or a normalpractice. And so to to begin to
try to shift imagination andthen shift practice to follow
that imagination. Yeah. takesquite a bit of work. Yeah. And
sometimes, when we talk aboutspirituality, we don't
necessarily usually connect itwith hard work. Yeah. Like,
(27:51):
well, it's spirituality shouldcome natural. Yeah. Effortless,
effortless, spontaneous. A laidback. Yeah, we there's this
automatic Tying of spiritualityequals these things in my
experience. And, and it doesn'tfeel good to disrupt my life in
ways with with heart with habitsthat are different, like, take
(28:14):
effort, like if you're trying toexercise regularly, that's hard
work. But you've got a goal inmind. That's worthwhile. And if
it's kind of if it's more likethat than some of the other
things. I think that'scounterintuitive for for a lot
of us.
Vanessa Caruso (28:30):
Yeah. Yeah.
True.
Andy Withrow (28:35):
So anyway, that's a challenge, I think, for me,
and for us to like, let's thinklet's think about this
differently. If if I want tolearn to hear the voice of Jesus
in my life, what maybe there'ssome habits I I need to, to push
on or to work into my life. Andthat's gonna take a little bit
of effort and energy over time,with high reward. Yes, we
(28:59):
haven't gotten to the the payoffhere, but it's going to be kind
of ridiculous in the way thatJesus describes it.
Vanessa Caruso (29:08):
So I just had this experience last week, where
I had a homework assignment fora program I'm in and I won't, I
won't share the nature of itall. But it was one of those
times where I just kind of wentthrough the motions of the
homework assignment. You know,it was a form of prayer. It was
(29:31):
it was to pay attention tosomething and I, I just I was
tired. You know, I had justwoken up. But I went through the
motions of it. And basicallywhat I did was say, Okay, I'm
open to this situation. Like, itbrings up a lot of feelings for
me, a lot of dread andconfusion. It just feels really
(29:54):
complicated. Like I'd rather notlook at it, but I'm open to it
today. Was it? Yeah, it was justsaying that later in the day,
out of the blue kind of it feltlike, you know, in a moment of
quiet, I was like in a groupsetting, but it was just like a
moment of quiet. I just had arevelation about it. And not
like a burning bush type ofthing. But just a recognition of
(30:22):
something I have neglected for along time. And immediately I
just, you know, tears came to myeyes. And I just thought I'm so
sorry for neglecting that. And Iexperienced forgiveness in that
moment. You know, in the sayingof it's like, as soon as soon as
that recognition is there, it'sit's like the forgiveness was
(30:43):
already. Yeah. Reaching out tome. Yeah. So it was actually
pretty significant. And I wasshocked that my very tired
consent in the morning, lead tokind of an afternoon. A seeing
it felt like pure grace, becauseI didn't do a thing. Yeah,
(31:06):
except for say, I'm willing. AndI'm open. Yeah. So that feels a
little bit like, like all ofthis.
Andy Withrow (31:15):
Yeah. Yeah, there's this duality of even in
this parable. It's like the seeddoes all the God is the sower,
or Jesus is the sower. Yeah. Andthe seed does all the work. On
the one hand, and so it's likethere's in which is the Gospels,
like, this is the grace, it'slike, this is a gift. But
(31:38):
there's this other side to itof, of our role in it, that that
trust actually takes work. Trustrequires habits that support
that trust in our everyday life.
And so in so I think it can be alittle bit confusing, but those
two things are both true at thesame time. It's like this pure,
(32:00):
unadulterated grace God gifts,it all does not depend on our
effort is on offer. And yet toreceive and to listen and to
train ourselves to listen and toreceive does take tremendous
effort to learn how to trustwhen all your habits make you
want to run the other direction.
(32:23):
Yeah, takes tremendous
Vanessa Caruso (32:25):
effort. Yeah.
Uncomfortable. Yeah.
Andy Withrow (32:29):
Yeah. So I think I think both of those things are
true, it does not negate thefree the grace of the gospel.
But it does also point to thisother side of it of man, we do
not naturally trust in generaland to trust God is not in our,
because of a bigger story that'shappening doesn't is not in our
(32:53):
bones. And that takes asignificant shift. And it's
like, It just occurs to me thatthat we have this a lot of us.
And I grew up with it to justthis narrative or the story
that, again, spirituality shouldbe easy, it should be natural,
(33:14):
it's just something thathappens. But why? Why do we
think that? What Why shouldn'tit be that the Creator of all
things who, who as we engagewith creation, we find that that
we require certain habits toachieve certain good things.
(33:38):
Exercise education, you know,any any sort of gold takes
homemade bread? Yeah, day today, like, Okay, I need to be
more disciplined in these areas.
And that's gonna take someeffort, energy and work. Why
would spirituality necessarilybe different?
Vanessa Caruso (33:56):
I think I know why. I think I know why we
confuse them. One of the reasonswhy at least, is because of a
verse like Come to me all youwho are weary and I will give
you rest. Take my yoke upon you.
It is easy and light. I think wecan confuse messages like that
and experiences like that in thespiritual life. Yeah, those
(34:17):
experiences of grace andforgiveness and flow, and
synchronicity, some of thethings that aren't totally
everyday experiences whenthey're very formative when they
do happen. Yeah. And they'rehealing. And we can expect that
that's how it works. Yeah, andthen we can confuse the work of
(34:38):
it with you know, like, I knowthat when I was getting into the
contemplative tradition andspiritual formation, people in
my life were suspicious thatthis was kind of like a works
righteousness ladder situation.
Where you know, if you, you'resaying you have to Be silent
(35:00):
everyday for 20 minutes. Doesn'tthat feel like you're trying to
earn something? So that's partof why it's problematic. Yeah.
The easy and difficult the habitand the grace. There's these
binaries that aren't actuallyreal. Yeah, are helpful, but we
live with them. Yeah,nonetheless.
Andy Withrow (35:23):
Yeah. Yeah. Cuz I think coming to Jesus and taking
on his yoke and receiving fromhim is a training and it's I
mean, the the image of the yokeitself is a training, your your
yoga image, the CrossFit wheretuition and you are, you are
being trained into a new way, agrace way, Grace filled way of
(35:45):
living, which does not comenatural to us. Yeah. And it's
easy. But it's, it's training.
Yeah.
Vanessa Caruso (35:54):
It's also hard.
Andy Withrow (35:56):
Is like the metaphor itself, that Jesus uses
is, it has a tension, it hasthis seemingly contradictory
nature. Yeah. Come to me, andI'll put a yoke on you. It's
easy and light. It's the it'sthe it's the easy and light
yoke. But it's a yoke on thelast that takes training and
practice. Yeah. Yeah, that's agood image. God's word is
(36:20):
everywhere, at least seems to be
Vanessa Caruso (36:22):
a big idea.
Number one. Yeah.
Andy Withrow (36:27):
And I think we'll come maybe come back to that
idea. At the very end, but yeah,the second thing is that God's
word is hidden, or, or hidden inthe sense that just following
the parable, it's when it'ssewn. As soon as it's sewn, it's
(36:49):
gone. It's underground, youcan't see it anymore. You don't
know, if it's working. You don'tknow what effect it had. You
don't know if it's gonna come upand turn into anything, there's
an invisible you don't see it,you don't get to see that part.
You're not we're not, we're notprivy to the, the individual
workings out of the seed, as ittakes root or doesn't in and in
(37:13):
comes to fruit. And to go back.
So we start with the historicalsituations, we talked about
Jesus going, teaching all overIsrael, all the synagogues, this
is what I'm here to do. care whoyou are, I'm gonna I'm going to
preach and teach. And and thenyou can just compare it to this.
See, that does not look veryimpressive. And it looks like
(37:34):
it's just even taking like, youcould just say, See going to the
ground, it's gone. If you didn'tknow how farming work, or her
you could look at this parableand say, Wow, a lot of obstacles
to the seed. Not gonna work onthe path not gonna work on rocky
soil not gonna work on weedinfested ground. That's the
(37:55):
majority of the sowing. It'sfailing. And so historical
situation we just talked aboutchapters 11 and 12. And in
Matthew's Gospel, looks like theteaching is failing Jesus.
People are rejecting it. Crowdsare fickle. Not everyone's
(38:16):
following you. Authorityauthorities are, are challenging
you. Your home family. You can'tif someone couldn't convince
their own family. Yeah. Wait aminute red flags here. Yeah. So
why is Jesus saying thisparable? Is it an apology? On
(38:39):
the part in the apologeticsense? Like, oh, here's a way to
understand what's happeningright now. Because if you looked
at my teaching ministry, itmight look to you like it's not
working and it's failing and whyam I following this guy? Let me
tell you the story about thesower in the seeds
Vanessa Caruso (39:01):
to very good, apologetic. Yeah, in that way.
Andy Withrow (39:07):
Yeah. Is just wait, just you wait. It's gonna
happen. I mean, the problem is,it's going to get worse before
it gets better. If you know therest of the story. Like it's
gonna really look like failureby the end.
Vanessa Caruso (39:21):
That does not sound
Andy Withrow (39:23):
why are we following this guy? What's the
plan? It looks like utterfailure. This is not what we
were picturing Messiah. This isnot what we were picturing a
person from God. Their trackrecord to look like. But we do
this all the time. With in ourin our lives and in our
(39:46):
spiritual lives, I think. Imean, when you when you were on
last time you were on a church.
Pastoral hiring committee. Yeah.
Were you looking for someonethat looked like failure?
Vanessa Caruso (39:57):
No. This is an apparent failure.
Andy Withrow (40:00):
Yeah, just apparent failure.
Vanessa Caruso (40:04):
But so, like,
Andy Withrow (40:05):
which church would higher Jesus at this point?
Yeah. Well, it really at anypoint in the Gospel story,
except maybe like the high pointof like, healings and popular,
right?
Vanessa Caruso (40:16):
No, speaking only in parables that are
failing. Something about thatphrase is so beautiful to me,
though apparent failure. I mean,it's, it's confusing, like, it's
not what I expect, either forsomething that I, you know,
believe in and give my life to.
But doesn't it remind you ofexperiences in life that were in
(40:42):
a, for all intents and purposes,an apparent failure? And then
you know, something way morevaluable than what success would
have looked like, actually comesfrom it. That that feels like a
pattern, or an equation that Ido know about, from personal
(41:06):
experience.
Andy Withrow (41:11):
It's the gospel pattern was the seed falls to
the ground and dies. It willnot. It will not come up again.
It's over and over and overagain. Yeah. Through the through
the prophets, gospel picks up onthat major theme.
Vanessa Caruso (41:34):
Know My instinct is to want to ask, why does it
have to be like that? But thatthat question hasn't gotten me
that far. You know, like to belike, Well, why couldn't you
have chosen a pattern? Yeah,that wasn't so painful. Yeah.
That That wasn't so scary,because there's like the liminal
(41:55):
space between the pain violenceand death or whatever. And,
yeah, the fruit and this passageor the crop right, but I don't I
don't I don't want to ask thatright now. Like, why? Because
there's no answer. Really? Imean, there are ways to think
about it that home.
Andy Withrow (42:17):
Yeah. Yeah, so God's God's Word, the Word and
maybe specifically the word ofthe kingdom here, or the work of
the Kingdom here in Jesus lifeappears it doesn't appear very
impressive once a small seedlooks good. Doesn't look like
unless you knew the nature offarming doesn't gonna do much.
(42:40):
And Jesus whole point is I'mcomparing this unknown thing to
something that is known so thatthey can see that the word of
God though, though, notimpressive, though, it looks
like it's failing, my ministrylooks like it's failing and a
huge embarrassing failuredefinitely does not look like
something God would have hishands on, to help them
understand why it looks thisway. And that it's going to turn
(43:03):
in the end, and why it's worthinvesting in. I like being a
part ofmaybe me, let's go to the third
point the pullback and do likeit were kind of bring it to our,
to our lives. Third, third, andlast thing. So despite the
(43:26):
hiddenness and the apparentfailure, of God's Word of God's
work in the world, God's word isdeceptively potent, and
powerful. So Jesus, preachingand teaching on the kingdom of
(43:47):
heaven, his work. So again,we're looking at the historical
situation of the gospelsituation. His preaching and
teaching on the kingdom ofheaven, will issue in his very
improbable, unlikely, unexpectedrate of return. So it's an
interesting parable, becausemost of the seed fails, but the
(44:12):
stuff that takes root more thanmakes like the net benefit is
like his way like it doesn'teven compare because he's
saying, so the the, the lowestone is the 30 times return on
investment, that's 3,000% rateof return sounds
Vanessa Caruso (44:32):
I don't know about investment and that sounds
that's
Andy Withrow (44:35):
that's it would Yeah, that'd be that'd be
consider a high investment.
Okay. I think 7% is pretty okay.
So 378 percent is you're doingpretty well like for kind of
your long term. Nice fundsright? From what I know Okay.
From the little that I know. Iknow that 33,000% is like your
we're getting into like if youinvested in Bitcoin, no back
(44:58):
pretty early. You know, the gunthe gun in the ground level and
the cryptocurrency?
Vanessa Caruso (45:03):
Yeah. Did you know? Oh, sure. tunity.
Andy Withrow (45:06):
Okay. Next time?
Yeah. Excellent. Okay. Butthat's the low one. So the high
one is 100 fold. It's1000 10,000% rate of return. So
it's like this. It's, it'sridiculous what Jesus is
pointing to? Same idea like thethe basic Mustard Seed
parabolics, smallest seed, largebush of the shrub of the field,
(45:27):
right? It's like, How cansomething so big come from
something so small? If you're afarmer, you're used to it.
Probably it's becomecommonplace, mundane. But that
thing, that's why Jesus ismaking the connections like you
have to think about this inthose terms. Yeah. Like you put
it in the ground. And anotherparable that we're not going to
(45:49):
get to in this chapter, it's notin this chapter is the farmer
soza See, doesn't you know, hegoes to bed doesn't, doesn't
think about it doesn't knowwhat's happening. And it
doesn't, is not involved withthe processes. He just goes
about his life and waits forthis thing that is way outweighs
the, the input. Yeah, the littleinvestment. That's what he's
(46:16):
comparing it to, like, invest inthis word, in this gospel in
this teaching, in thiscommunication, and these words,
this the self disclosure of Godto us, root in those things,
hold fast to those things, letthose things over time shape,
(46:37):
your life story. And then youwill be investing in these,
these benefits of the kingdom,which we haven't talked about,
because the parables are allabout how the Kingdom comes.
They don't even talk about thecontent of the kingdom.
Vanessa Caruso (46:57):
It's another which is
Andy Withrow (47:00):
in one, in one sentence or less. The whole Old
Testament of lies about theKingdom of God, it's like, well,
that's our time for today. Yeah,we got to go. The the prophets
are, are all over this, the andand the the first five books of
the Bible is like, God, Hisconcern is concerned about
(47:21):
goodness, about humanflourishing, about justice,
about peace. And that is thekingdom is God's presence with
us, and working out His will forall those things for for good
life together with one anotherand with God. Where it's fair,
(47:44):
and it's right in, it's good.
And there's mercy. And there'sjustice perfectly balanced. So
this is a very, very broad andbrief description of the
kingdom. And so that's sort ofin the background. You would
know this as a first centuryJewish person. The question is,
Why isn't it coming? Why is ittaking the time it's taking
(48:05):
why's it look like it's notworking out? It will come these
good things will happen in yourlife and in your community.
throughout time and space,through God working out in these
ways.
Vanessa Caruso (48:22):
So beautiful, Andy, if you had an altar call,
I would, I would come
Andy Withrow (48:26):
up, every head bowed. Like bring the lights
down, see my hand? I see thathand in the back of the office.
But really, it's
Vanessa Caruso (48:34):
just so yeah, it just really resonates. And it's
so beautiful. so inviting. Arewe allowed to to apply it to our
lives yet? Or anything more youwant to say about that one?
Andy Withrow (48:53):
Now, let's I don't know, because maybe we don't
relate. Maybe we don't feel likesometimes we don't see the
kingdom of God coming in ourlives. But I feel like I feel
like sometimes that's what Yes,we I do relate. Maybe
everything's always going greatall the time. And just like I
don't know what you're talkingabout. No, no. Okay.
Vanessa Caruso (49:16):
So one thing it makes me feel inspired about is,
yeah, when when my life lookslike an apparent failure, you
know, and I'm thinking to theoutside world, whatever that
means. I don't even totally knowwhat I mean by that, but just
(49:38):
shaping my days in such a waythat doesn't necessarily look
productive or hyper efficient orstrategic in the sense that what
I'm investing in, you know,underneath it all is Like, I
(50:02):
feel like my answers love, whatI'm what I'm doing what my aim
in my day is to love to lovewell. And that just doesn't
necessarily look superproductive or efficient. I
believe in being productive andstrategic as a Christian to,
(50:23):
yeah, no, I'm not saying like,just just walk barefoot through
the city for the day, whichthose people probably do know
something, actually, about thekingdom of heaven. But so
there's that kind ofconstellation that comes from
kind of following my instinctabout what's important, and
(50:44):
resisting the temptation to, youknow, catch up on Instagram, or
whatever I might feel like Ineed to do in order to get my
life together. So that comes upfor me. And then also just
something about making mistakes,like when you're talking about
(51:07):
the seed and how much of itthere is. And that's not really
the issue. It just reminded methat, that there's not a
shortage of forgiveness. That'snot the tone you get from
Jesus's life, or from the Biblefor me. And he just did one of
(51:27):
those.
Andy Withrow (51:28):
Yeah, I went to my Oh, my desk, and it wasn't
there. And I almost went to
Vanessa Caruso (51:33):
school. So I feel kind of like, a little bit
of a fire around why am I soafraid of making mistakes? Like
I'm I can be really hesitant. Ican overthink, I can like, try
to plan out having aconversation about something
because I just don't want tomake a mistake. Yes. And the
(51:53):
overall tone I'm getting fromthis conversation is go for it.
And yeah, I need to ask forforgiveness. Because I said
something. I, you know,exaggerated. All right. Yeah. It
wasn't the right way to say itwasn't good timing. Yeah. Or? I
don't know. Yeah. Then you justthere's more seats, like no big
(52:14):
deal. Yes. That's one of mytakeaways. Yeah,
Andy Withrow (52:18):
I like I think that's a really great takeaway
that came up in one of our, acouple of our neighbor tables
too. And we're kind of goingthrough this passage is just
what the one person said, Well,I'm always so guarded about who
I share what with in terms oftenin terms of their, their
relationship with God, or whatthey're sensing or what they're
(52:38):
hearing? And they said, Thisreally challenges me to be a bit
less afraid. A bit more like,just free with what I'm sharing?
Yeah, that's stupid or silly.
Or, or, or undiscerning on theone hand, but just like, maybe
it's more okay, just to sharewho I am as God is shaping me
(53:01):
the way that that he's shapingand speaking to me. Yeah. And
yeah, there's room for like, Oh,am I that? You know, if that
came at the wrong time or thewrong way? I'm sorry. Or? Well,
that's probably gonna breed morerelationship, isn't it? Yeah,
and and I think I think that'syeah, there's, there's something
(53:26):
there for me too, in terms ofjust a bit more trust, that God
is present in working throughthings and to just say the thing
or to do the thing that's sortof on my heart or in my mind,
yeah, at times. I suppose it'sbeing so guarded.
Vanessa Caruso (53:46):
Yeah, I like that. And also, it makes me it
reminds me that I've probablysaid this before it because it's
like an ongoing thing for methat there isn't this long. It's
Mary Oliver's poem, you don'thave to walk 100 miles through
the desert repenting. Like, Ijust assume that if change is
(54:08):
going to take place in me, Ihave to like really work for it.
And I have to pine over it, haveto struggle for it. And it's
going to come in the future. Andthere's something about even the
fact that Jesus relates bigideas of the kingdom to farming
or breadmaking. Yeah, it kind offeels like he's saying it's not
(54:30):
out there are over there. Orthen or when, like, they're the
way this works is that you canactually change today and not
change forever for all timewithout ever having to change
again, but there's like a lightheartedness and as an add to
(54:52):
just responding whereas myinstinct is to like be all emo
about it. Yeah, you know, for along time, right? It feels like
That's unnecessary.
Andy Withrow (55:01):
Yeah, I think so I think there's I just think
there's a freedom that comeswith really believing and
trusting that God wants us toturn to Him and loves us and is
ready to restore that, thatrelationship. Like, if we
really, if I really believedthat, then I then then there
(55:23):
would be all sorts of freedomnot to carry around this. What
was me this guilt, the shame.
And I could be instead movetowards gratitude and think live
out of a general thankfulnessand enjoyment of life, even even
in all its hardships, and inthe, in the harder things and
the difficult things. And, and,yeah, that's, that's a big
(55:46):
amount that's been a big imagineof shift in my life of, I'm
never going to be I'm nevergoing to be good enough in my
own in my own efforts. So I'mgoing to give up that pursuit.
And I'm going to trust God atHis Word, to say, You are
forgiven you're, you're my son,and you live in my house. And
(56:07):
and it's my pleasure, thatyou're in my house, living this
way. So go on, go about yourbusiness. Go Go do your work.
And, and I'm with you. It's it'sreally simple. And I think
that's the easy that's the easyyoke of it, but believing it is
the hard work. It's like to keepthose two things together. Yeah.
(56:30):
Like your free easy. I've donethat where is finished, I've
done that work looking at thegospel. So go go live does this
is an all just do that?
Vanessa Caruso (56:51):
Let Yeah,
Andy Withrow (56:52):
let me to say great. But that is the word of
the kingdom is this word ofmercy and peace and grace. And
that is the that is the that'swhy I'm abroad broken record if
you come to the table church,but there's why confession is
one of my favorite things isthis invitation to return.
(57:15):
Because it's what the doors arewide open. But I'm not going to
I'm not going to put you in aheadlock and bring you into the
house, turn and come into thehouse. And let's restore. But
it's really it is a whole notherepisode of the podcast about how
to how to let how to reallytrust despite our our own
(57:37):
history, our own badness or whatwhat's been told to us, in our
past about who we are, to let goof those things. is a is a
whole, a whole podcast series initself. But that's what's on
offer.
Vanessa Caruso (57:52):
Well, it occurs to me that the the grace and the
mercy and the returning is likethat is way simpler than we make
it out to be. But the soil isway more complicated and
convoluted and distracting thanwe think it is. Like we
(58:13):
underestimate kind of the wrongthings. We underestimate. What
Andy Withrow (58:19):
the obstacles the obstacles to, to coming to and
totally in, into, into remainingin.
Vanessa Caruso (58:26):
And then we overestimate the obstacles. You
know, like, Wait, it's just
Andy Withrow (58:31):
wrong. Yeah, maybe maybe we we think that we don't,
we think it's the wrong thingsthat are gonna keep us from
being in but it's these otherthings over here that we don't
give enough weight to. Yeah,that's good. It's a nice. That's
a nice little segue into nextone. Our next episode. Yeah,
yeah, that's good. But it didn'toccur to me, as we're talking
(58:55):
about that. Even that image ofthe door open and confession
come in. And he's made me thinkof another parable. Which of the
of the kid who left home? Yeah,and didn't go well? Yeah. And
he's like, hits rock bottom andcomes back home and it's like
Vanessa Caruso (59:16):
I'm gonna be a servant.
Andy Withrow (59:17):
Yeah, I miss a speech ready? I'm gonna do it
and all this stuff. And it'slike, doesn't doesn't even have
time to get and we're notcovering this, this parable. So
I wanted to bring it up here butyeah, doesn't even get his
speech out. That he wasrehearsing. And as his dad's
like, jumped, jumped the porchfast and running out and getting
a service to come and get getsome new clothes on. You are
(59:40):
having a party tonight.
Vanessa Caruso (59:42):
Something awesome.
Andy Withrow (59:44):
Don't worry about cuts, catch all that stuff
later. Like, isn't that amazingimage.
Vanessa Caruso (59:50):
Amazing if that was a movie, like it sounds like
Shawshank Redemption. He wouldwatch it. Oh, yeah. And I would
weep. I would it's too good tobe true.
Andy Withrow (01:00:00):
Yeah. Yeah, that is good. On that note, let's,
let's end there. And we're, thatwas a great teaser for looking
at what are the real obstaclesto, to walking through the doors
to coming back. And, andremaining in is that John 15
image of the vine remaining inJesus as our as our as our life
(01:00:21):
source. It's a nice comparativeparabolic image of this being
rooted in, in I mean, that's,that's not the image of the
sower one because we're justtalking about roots and soils
but but I think that is behindall of this is what are we
rooted in in terms of our lifesource? So okay, great. Thanks.
(01:00:43):
Nice to be back. Yeah, back inthe tiny tiny town bear with me
studios here. And we're gonna dowe're gonna do a bunch more on
the parables. So join us nextweek for part two of the sower
or the parable, the four seedsfor the Four Soils sorry. And,
and we'll look at the obstaclesto to seeing Jesus. Right. Okay,
(01:01:10):
have a good week. Bye. Bye,everybody.
Welcome to the bear with me podcast on table
radio, where we aim to integratebelief and practice in the
Christian mind
Vanessa Caruso (00:29):
Great, great.
I'm ready. I got my coffee.
Nice. You haven't pressed startyet. We're back. Yeah, look, you
press start. Yes. Wow, that's sogood. We're recording. We are
recording. Yeah, I asked if youhad a Bible. Yeah, there's
there's a lot in here. Yeah,there's Yeah. We're and I got my
coffee. You've got your cream.
It's 2022 it is it's a NewYear's is our first recording of
(00:51):
2022 it took longer than wethought because yeah, is for
those listening. 30 years fromnow, there was this pandemic.
And we're in the Omicron phaseof the pandemic just to kind of
locate us in history. And so itjust delays things I don't know
if people out there are noticingthis but just it can slow down
(01:12):
lives.
Andy Withrow (01:17):
So that sort of happened it here we are. Yes.
And
Vanessa Caruso (01:21):
we're drinking galloping goose coffee which
drinking
Andy Withrow (01:25):
coffee which is a local brand pretty new. Really
good.
Vanessa Caruso (01:28):
You can find it at root cellar. Really cool.
Metal
Andy Withrow (01:31):
recommended. tins.
Yes. Good. Responsiblepackaging. and tasty. Yeah, I
like it. Me too. Here we go.
Okay.
So we're gonna do we decidedwe're gonna do parables? Yes. We
(01:51):
don't have know how manyepisodes we're going to dedicate
to it. But we'll just see. We'llsee how it goes. And did you
know Vanessa, that almost a fullthird of Jesus teachings or
sayings are parables? No, a fullthird. Now that's a lot. That is
something he did some of thetime. In fact, it says
explicitly in the Gospels. Atone of several points in the
(02:14):
gospels, he spoke nothing to thecrowds except through parables
that is radical.
Like, that's all he did. It's atsome points, at least in his
ministry.
Vanessa Caruso (02:25):
Can you imagine if like a book, a book tour,
like an author on a book tourspoke nothing to the crowds
except through parables.
Andy Withrow (02:33):
Yeah. Do you think they get annoyed? Yes. Yeah,
yeah. Like illustrations, likecomparisons? What can you hear
this too. And I was reading howthis was a It looks like this is
a pretty common practice ofrabbis in Jesus day, and around
like he wasn't, he wasn'tinventing a new form of teaching
(02:55):
or going rogue with his stylethat this was pretty common.
And, and it was, it was popularin large part because it was
easy to understand you're tryingto take something that is very
abstract and unknown. Who isGod? What is God like? And how
do we see God and connect withGod? In our everyday lives? How
(03:18):
do we understand what'shappening around us? And you
compare it with something thatis known farming in Jesus day
especially, yeah. And or, or, orlosing something in your
kitchen? Or making bread or youknow, all these or or having
(03:38):
having a dysfunctional family,you know, a son who leaves and
takes his inheritance with them,you know, all these all these
things that are like at leasteither happened to people or
they do regularly or they canhave an imagination for what it
would be like if something likethat happened.
Vanessa Caruso (03:54):
Doesn't that seem so simple? In a way
Andy Withrow (04:00):
Yeah. Yeah. And accessible Yeah, whether you are
whether you are another rabbiwho had done all this learning
and study you could stillunderstand it or whether you
weren't you know, any anybodyelse. And so it's just
fascinating. He spent the weeklooking at the gods who have a
(04:21):
third of his teachings inparable form. And then there's
these bits were saying, well, hedidn't teach anything except in
parables. Wow. Now we're gonnawe're gonna look at the parable
specifically in Matthews,chapter 13. And just kind of
kind of confine ourselves tothose set of parables. So
otherwise, we're just like, Idon't know what like gold
(04:42):
summoning pick everywhere.
That'd be a fun different way todo it. But we're gonna stick
here and kind of let that be ourboundaries. And I think that's
kind of fun and helpful becauseit there's there's a setting
there. There's something that'shappened before we get to
Matthew chapter 13. And specificWhat's happened before the two
chapters 11 and 12, is thatJesus is going all over Israel.
(05:03):
And he's preaching in theirsynagogues. He's teaching in
their towns, healing people allover the place. He might get
tempted, and his disciples mightget, and let's just set up shop
here in Capernaum people willcome to us, we're really popular
and yes, nope, is not what I'vecome for. I've come to teach.
(05:26):
Let's go to the next towns. Andin Matthew 1112, he's been doing
this has been going all over.
And in 11, and 12, you see,there starts to be some
resistance to his teaching,especially among the
authorities, but not just theauthorities. They're resisting
(05:50):
his teaching. They're conspiringhow to how to stop him how to
get him into trouble. And thenby the end of chapter 12, just
before chapter 13 starts, hisown family tries to come in. So
it's one thing to have, like,run up against opposition, from
from from others outside. Butthen when your own family is
(06:14):
like concerned, and like, Jesus,you got to stop.
Vanessa Caruso (06:18):
What do they I don't know that what what are
you referring to?
Andy Withrow (06:21):
It is his home family comes to get them? That's
when they say come with that.
One Mark's gospel, it's moreit's more explicit. It's the
same theme. Yeah. And they'recoming because they're concerned
that he's, he's not he's beenout of his mind. Really? Yeah.
Like, well, it's all thisbecause I think in part because
there's this growing oppositionand their concern for safety.
(06:41):
And he's opposing, essentiallythe opposing the temple in
Jerusalem. And, and yeah, thosekinds of when you say it like
that, and he's got all thispopular movement that's within
but it's causing all this isstarting to cause a lot of
friction. And so he's got allthis. All this opposition and
all this tension building. Andit kind of culminates the last
(07:07):
scene with his family comingtogether. And then we get this
scene here in Matthew 13. And wedon't even necessarily read the
first part, because we're goingto read the first explanation of
the parallel here in a minute,but says he left the house that
he was in and he went out by thesea. And when I read that is
like, I just had this picture,like, with those themes in the
(07:28):
background? Yeah, it's like,just going out alone. Yeah, by
the water. And if it was me, I'dbe like, I'd be a little mopey.
Yeah, I might, or I might befrustrated, or might be angry or
might be reevaluating. Am I onthe right path? Oh, yes. Things.
I don't know what's in Jesushead at this point. He's out
(07:49):
there alone by the sea. But thenthe crowds come as they
inevitably do, because they wantmore. And that's when he says
this. That's when he starts tosuffer in Matthew, this is the
first there's little momentswhere yes, kind of these
parabolic moments, where is itkind of these teachings
comparing things, but this iswhere he launched his full into
just teaching parables now. Andso I don't think it's
coincidental a lot. A lot ofpeople don't think it's
(08:09):
coincidental that you've got allthis opposition, you've got sort
of this initial rejection. Andnow, okay, I'm gonna speak in
parables. Wow. And, and I thinkin part, it's got to be because
he's, he has meaning up againstresistance. And so this is, this
is a way kind of around, like,around some of that conflict,
(08:30):
that direct tension, even thoughmore is gonna come later. But
as, as he's going to explain tohis disciples, we're not going
to get to it today. It's, it'salso, it's also an approach to
to teaching that force, iteither forces people to kind of
(08:50):
buy in and in and follow Jesus,or it might actually repel them.
So yeah, there's there's andthat's historically go back and
read the the point of rabbinicparables is it forces it the
goal of parables is to is toengage a decision on the hearers
part.
Vanessa Caruso (09:11):
Wow, interesting. Are you?
Are you in? Are you out? Yeah.
Are you are you listening andyou're hearing this in? Do you
get it and you're gonna followor are you going to are going to
reject this? Yeah. And so that'svery much a theme and in Matthew
13, that's so interesting.
Andy Withrow (09:30):
But so you've kind of got this this duality where
parable, the the point of perilscan can push people away. But
it's also meant to pull peoplein. It's kind of this dual
repelling, attracting typething. And it is kind of like if
someone went on tour and onlyspoke in parables, some people
get really frustrated, and notlike it. Yeah, maybe provocative
(09:54):
like, what, what is he doing orwhat are you doing? Why is she
doing that? Yeah, and forcepeople to kind of think of it
more and try to make the kind ofsee the connections that are
being made. Anyway, theseparables are all about the
Kingdom of God or the kingdom,Matthew 13. Matthew 13. Okay,
like, that's his. That's histhing that he wants to talk
(10:16):
about to teach and to compareall these everyday things to
farming, bread baking all thatstuff fishing.
Vanessa Caruso (10:32):
Yeah. The usual the usual.
Andy Withrow (10:37):
So should we read it? Sure. Let's read that. Okay,
so the basically what Jesusstarts out with, with a very
famous parable, the parable ofthe sower, the sower and the
seed are the four types of soildepending on who you talk to.
Okay. And I'll sum up theparable. And then Vanessa,
you're going to read the Jesusexplaining the parable aside to
(11:00):
His disciples, He doesn'texplain it to the crowd. Okay.
Which is interesting. He'sassigned to His disciples in a
private moment. He's understand,you know, here, the parable of
the sower. And then he explainswhat he doesn't do for others
doesn't do for others. Yeah.
There's something else going onthere. I think it's that he? I
think he's because he saysexplicitly this is for it. This
(11:23):
explanation is for insiders,insiders get special info. And
that might seem unfair. But Ithink the whole point is, in
will we look at the kind of theparagraph in between this
parable and its explanation.
We'll look forward a bit furtherby think the whole point is that
(11:43):
you, you can't understand thekingdom, apart from the king.
Oh, apart from knowing the king,not just knowing about the king,
but an intimate relationalconnection to the king. I think
that's the point of his Isaiahquote, that we'll get to in in a
couple episodes of why he'sspeaking in parables in what he
(12:06):
wants to happen out of it.
Vanessa Caruso (12:08):
I want to know that now that I can wait, well,
this is
Andy Withrow (12:11):
this is the this is the the spoiler, okay, is he
wants people to to follow him tobe to be insiders, with him to
say, I'm going to trust you. Theprerequisite to understanding
is, is this trusting loyalty orthis allegiance? So it's why
(12:32):
he's favoring instead of like,you trust me, you're getting
your you know, the king. So youget, you get the inside
information.
Vanessa Caruso (12:40):
So the parables kind of like woo people in so
you know, like, we're like
Andy Withrow (12:43):
provocative yadgir to them to make people think and
wonder, and hopefully, pressedin.
Vanessa Caruso (12:53):
Yeah, like that.
I'm thinking of when you hearsomething and you like, can't
shake it. You know, that when asong lyric or a story or
something, and for some reason,for a couple days, you're just
like, oh, I can't I can't shakethat. Like, I don't know what it
means totally. Or why it was sador but something about it. So
the parables Whoo. But itdoesn't end there. You're saying
(13:16):
the point is
Andy Withrow (13:20):
to, I think, to come to be to come inside? Yeah.
To follow. Yeah. And to and tohave I think that there isn't a
It's not enough to have anintellectual knowledge, but even
a right theology. There. There'sGod desires more than that. Can
(13:42):
actual relational connection. Onsome level, I think that's a big
part of what this dynamic isabout. And in the point of the
parables of bringing people in,even though it's also going to
repel others. Yeah. And that's,that's where you get the
confusing quote for Isaiah.
There's a lot of teasers for acouple episodes from now. So
just Zandi. Just wait, well,we're getting sucked into it.
(14:05):
But we'll get ready. We'll put apin in that. Yeah. And let's
because he starts this parablebefore he gets to that
explanation. So we're going tolook at this parable, first of
all, backup and then in comeback, okay. So he starts out,
I'm going to try to sum up frommemory. Oh, how well you do. And
then you could read the Jesusexplanation, but a sore went out
to sow and as he sowing seeds,some fell on the path and
(14:29):
couldn't take root. So birdscome down and eaten, gone.
Second, then he keeps sowing andsome fall on the rocky soil.
Yeah, and they can't take deeproot but a little bit of roots
come up and they spring upquickly. But then as soon as the
sun comes out, they get scorchedand they wither up. Yeah. And
(14:51):
then some seed falls on thisweed infested ground and It gets
some roots. But as it comes up,it gets choked, so it can't
grow. And then finally, someseed falls on good soil and it
takes root and it bears itproduces a crop, Some 100 Some
16 Some 30 fold. Yeah. Which isit's quite a bit. Yes. So, then
(15:17):
he has an explains to hisdisciples in private, why he's
speaking in parables, whichwe'll get to in a bit. Yeah. And
then he explains to them, theparable of the sower,
Vanessa Caruso (15:33):
yes. Then he says, This is verse 18, in
chapter 13. Here then theparable of the sower. When
anyone hears the word of thekingdom and does not understand
it, the evil one comes andsnatches away what has been sown
in his heart. This is what wassown along the path. And for
(15:55):
what was sown on rocky ground,this is the one who hears the
word and immediately receives itwith joy. Yet he has no root in
himself, but endures for awhile, and when tribulation or
persecution arises on account ofthe word, immediately, he falls
away. As for what was sown amongthorns, this is the one who
hears the word, but the cares ofthe world and the deceitfulness
(16:17):
of riches choke the word, and itproves unfruitful. As for what
was sown on good soil, this isthe one who hears the word and
understands it. He under heindeed bears fruit and yields in
one case, 100 fold and another60. And another 30. Interesting.
Andy Withrow (16:42):
Yeah, so which we talked about first. So the
wheat, so we were talking abouthow I think this isn't a two
parter. Because the soils aresort of a big picture one, and
then there's kind of looking atthe four different just for
clear distinctions of sowingseed into different types of
soil. Yeah, that kind ofdeserves its own its own focus.
So I thought we just look atthree big ideas and the big
(17:06):
picture of the parable today,and then we'll save the the
soils for next time.
Vanessa Caruso (17:12):
That sounds great.
Andy Withrow (17:13):
So my first big idea, Vanessa, and I'm really
interested what you think aboutthis, and we've talked a little
bit about it in Advent, becausewe're talking about the
connection to this parable inparticular, is that I'm not I'm
not really sure what ancientfarming practices were like, but
this sower seems prettyindiscriminate.
Vanessa Caruso (17:34):
Certainly not careful. No, it's not super
strategic.
Yeah. Yeah. It's like, I don'tknow how farming works. Let's
just throw it out there. Justthrow it wherever.
It's fine. You have to have alot of seeds to do that. Yeah.
Yeah. That's
Andy Withrow (17:50):
another thing is like, doesn't seem overly
concerned. There's not nodoesn't have a poverty mentality
around the seeds. No, like,maybe he's got some maybe that's
the thing. It's like, Man, Ihave so much seeds. I don't know
what to do with them. I've givensome to my neighbors. Yeah, I
can't give them away. Let's justthrow it everywhere and see what
comes up. Yeah. I mean, thatthat would make sense. That
(18:12):
would make more sense. Yeah. Butthere's no sense of scarcity
with the seed, like, oh, I needto plot my rows. I'm gonna put
one here. And one here. Onehere. We're not precious my
perception of how to garden inyour backyard. Yeah. Because
that's what I've seen. Yeah. Myexperience. Yeah. So. So that's
(18:32):
interesting. It really, it makesme wonder if that's part of
something meant to be a part ofthe point. It reminds me of just
the historical context, or theliterary context here in
Matthew, is that Jesus has beenliterally going over the entire
land of his people. Yeah. Everysynagogue, every town. Lee's,
(18:57):
he's on tour, he's going up anddown and all around and teaching
everywhere, doesn't end like itdoesn't matter. Pretty
indiscriminate, maybe to people,I think, why are you wasting
time? They're not gonna. Notgonna be interested?
Vanessa Caruso (19:11):
Yeah, I like that. You pointed that out. I
didn't ever make that connectionbetween what was happening in
Jesus's walk around life, youknow, and this parable, they
seem very related, especiallythinking of the disciples.
Probably saying there is a moreefficient way. Yeah. And more
(19:32):
sustainable. Yeah. A lessexhausting way of doing this.
And that's letting the peoplewho are ready, like find us.
Yeah, you know,
Andy Withrow (19:40):
yeah. Yeah.
Vanessa Caruso (19:44):
It does. So initially, it makes me think of
this is like skipping to me,which is not always the most
helpful when reading the Bible.
But just how many people andsituations I prejudge As
something Yeah, like I've neverbeen part of PTA at school,
(20:04):
because I just think it's PAC oroh, sorry,
Andy Withrow (20:12):
Americanness.
Vanessa Caruso (20:15):
It's embarrassing. Pack it is your
pack here. Yeah. See, I wouldknow that if I went. But that's
just an example of, I just havelike this image of what that's
like and what it's about and thekinds of, let's be honest moms
who are part of it. And for goodand for bad, I just think I'm
(20:38):
not one of those, you know,like, so there's a lot of
prejudging in my life aboutpeople in situations. And this
doesn't. This seems like Jesusis coming from a different place
very
Andy Withrow (20:53):
different. Yeah, like it cuz I mean, we would
even say, and again, I'm not, Idon't know, how to compare,
like, what this would have meantto a first century farmer,
peasant person. Go get me this.
Vanessa Caruso (21:08):
Maybe it's common practice. It doesn't.
Andy Withrow (21:10):
But for us, it's like, you're much more seems
like you're much morediscriminant. And this just
seems like a bad way to garden.
Or farm. Yeah. And so if that ispart of the point, it does seem
like that's a bit that would bea bit challenging for the years.
Or maybe even a bit funny. Like,that's ridiculous. Why would
(21:34):
they, you know, yeah, what acrazy what a waste of time.
Yeah, waste of time, waste ofseed, and all that sort of
thing. And so that's, that'spretty, that's pretty
fascinating. And it also made methink of, maybe even our, in our
own history, or in our ownlives. If that's really like,
we, my experience as a pastor,both personally and then just
(22:00):
hearing from other people, isthat there seems to be this
sense that my Why is God soquiet? Why is God so silent?
Absent, absent? It's a realfeeling. Yeah. But it makes me
start to wonder if, if that's ifthat's the right paradigm or the
right right frame, to think ofGod in his his God, quiet. Shy?
(22:24):
doesn't like to talk a lot.
That's a big sign. I suppose Ishould go reveal myself to
people. Or say something tosomeone. Yeah. Or is it the
other way around? Yeah, goodquestion. Is God kind of
(22:46):
talkative, maybe a bit more likeyou're talkative friend? Yeah. I
guess is God's personality suchthat he really loves to disclose
himself to reveal himself tospeak. Was came up in the Advent
one with John the Baptist. Oh,yeah. We're the word of the Lord
(23:08):
came to like all this list ofEmperor's and Tet sharks and the
high priests, you know, thepeople in charge of the church
or the temple? Like, where's theword of the who's got speaking
to and it's John in thewilderness. And it raised the
question like, Well, is it thathe's just speaking to John? Or
is John the only one who's who'sin a position? To listen?
Vanessa Caruso (23:30):
Yeah, to hear it in the space was this was that
seed scattered? Yeah. Soundeverywhere
Andy Withrow (23:39):
I didn't this isn't a text I have ready but
just popped into my head thePsalms. Where is it Isaiah, one
of the prophets the Lord goinglooking to and fro the earth
for, for something I canremember for someone would
listen or for a heart that ismaths pretty look this one up?
(24:02):
Yeah, it's just it's in there.
But I can't quite I don't knowquite the specifics of it. But
like, there's this searching forwho's going to receive who's
going to listen, who's going tohear that? I think that centers
around the heart, or the seatof, of belief and trust and
imagination, loyalty in the menthat are tied to imagination and
(24:24):
all the rest? Yeah.
Vanessa Caruso (24:27):
So what is it?
What does it do for you to toapply that to your life and your
pastoral life, that maybe thereare all these seeds, even in the
places in ways that you assumeGod's quiet or silent or distant
or absent? That maybe you'rekind of looking at it upside
(24:50):
down? And what what appears tobe a vacancy is actually there's
it's actually full of reachingout to you or signs or?
Andy Withrow (25:06):
Yeah, I mean, even the question I think helps with
an imagination shift, like, whatif God is doing everything every
day to, to, to reveal Himself tome or to our community or to
this city or to this world? Whatif that's what true, and we just
haven't been very good atlearning how to be still? How to
(25:29):
listen. Maybe some of itsintuitive, and, and, and
there's, there's a giftingaspect to it. But maybe some of
its just skill and practice andlearning. So, so, I would go to
the classical disciplines, ofhow through history has the
(25:51):
church, have people come intoand learn to, to listen, and
recognize and have confidence?
And because that's those arekind of big ones, right? Yeah.
Like, oh, God, I think God isspeaking through this moment, or
this person, or, or, or this,this passage of Scripture that
(26:12):
I'm reading or whatever,
Vanessa Caruso (26:13):
yeah. Yeah, you're helping me to realize
that, in this parable with theexplanation, one of the
interpretations could be thatthe Word of God is in places we
don't expect, we expect the Wordof God to be in the Bible. But
we might not expect the Word ofGod to be in a pretty
(26:37):
complicated relationship.
Andy Withrow (26:40):
Yeah, well, if we think that God is incarnational,
if we believe that God isincarnational, that is he, he
his nature is to be present tohis creation in meaningful
intangible ways. And if thescriptures are teaching us that,
then then it, it would train ourimaginations and our
expectations to say, okay, thatI'm going to start to look for
(27:03):
you, in my relationships, and inthe events of my life. Yeah. But
for me, that's very, that's verydifficult. Because why? Because
I've lived my whole life. And Ihaven't. That hasn't been a
(27:24):
normal habit or a normalpractice. And so to to begin to
try to shift imagination andthen shift practice to follow
that imagination. Yeah. takesquite a bit of work. Yeah. And
sometimes, when we talk aboutspirituality, we don't
necessarily usually connect itwith hard work. Yeah. Like,
(27:51):
well, it's spirituality shouldcome natural. Yeah. Effortless,
effortless, spontaneous. A laidback. Yeah, we there's this
automatic Tying of spiritualityequals these things in my
experience. And, and it doesn'tfeel good to disrupt my life in
ways with with heart with habitsthat are different, like, take
(28:14):
effort, like if you're trying toexercise regularly, that's hard
work. But you've got a goal inmind. That's worthwhile. And if
it's kind of if it's more likethat than some of the other
things. I think that'scounterintuitive for for a lot
of us.
Vanessa Caruso (28:30):
Yeah. Yeah.
True.
Andy Withrow (28:35):
So anyway, that's a challenge, I think, for me,
and for us to like, let's thinklet's think about this
differently. If if I want tolearn to hear the voice of Jesus
in my life, what maybe there'ssome habits I I need to, to push
on or to work into my life. Andthat's gonna take a little bit
of effort and energy over time,with high reward. Yes, we
(28:59):
haven't gotten to the the payoffhere, but it's going to be kind
of ridiculous in the way thatJesus describes it.
Vanessa Caruso (29:08):
So I just had this experience last week, where
I had a homework assignment fora program I'm in and I won't, I
won't share the nature of itall. But it was one of those
times where I just kind of wentthrough the motions of the
homework assignment. You know,it was a form of prayer. It was
(29:31):
it was to pay attention tosomething and I, I just I was
tired. You know, I had justwoken up. But I went through the
motions of it. And basicallywhat I did was say, Okay, I'm
open to this situation. Like, itbrings up a lot of feelings for
me, a lot of dread andconfusion. It just feels really
(29:54):
complicated. Like I'd rather notlook at it, but I'm open to it
today. Was it? Yeah, it was justsaying that later in the day,
out of the blue kind of it feltlike, you know, in a moment of
quiet, I was like in a groupsetting, but it was just like a
moment of quiet. I just had arevelation about it. And not
like a burning bush type ofthing. But just a recognition of
(30:22):
something I have neglected for along time. And immediately I
just, you know, tears came to myeyes. And I just thought I'm so
sorry for neglecting that. And Iexperienced forgiveness in that
moment. You know, in the sayingof it's like, as soon as soon as
that recognition is there, it'sit's like the forgiveness was
(30:43):
already. Yeah. Reaching out tome. Yeah. So it was actually
pretty significant. And I wasshocked that my very tired
consent in the morning, lead tokind of an afternoon. A seeing
it felt like pure grace, becauseI didn't do a thing. Yeah,
(31:06):
except for say, I'm willing. AndI'm open. Yeah. So that feels a
little bit like, like all ofthis.
Andy Withrow (31:15):
Yeah. Yeah, there's this duality of even in
this parable. It's like the seeddoes all the God is the sower,
or Jesus is the sower. Yeah. Andthe seed does all the work. On
the one hand, and so it's likethere's in which is the Gospels,
like, this is the grace, it'slike, this is a gift. But
(31:38):
there's this other side to itof, of our role in it, that that
trust actually takes work. Trustrequires habits that support
that trust in our everyday life.
And so in so I think it can be alittle bit confusing, but those
two things are both true at thesame time. It's like this pure,
(32:00):
unadulterated grace God gifts,it all does not depend on our
effort is on offer. And yet toreceive and to listen and to
train ourselves to listen and toreceive does take tremendous
effort to learn how to trustwhen all your habits make you
want to run the other direction.
(32:23):
Yeah, takes tremendous
Vanessa Caruso (32:25):
effort. Yeah.
Uncomfortable. Yeah.
Andy Withrow (32:29):
Yeah. So I think I think both of those things are
true, it does not negate thefree the grace of the gospel.
But it does also point to thisother side of it of man, we do
not naturally trust in generaland to trust God is not in our,
because of a bigger story that'shappening doesn't is not in our
(32:53):
bones. And that takes asignificant shift. And it's
like, It just occurs to me thatthat we have this a lot of us.
And I grew up with it to justthis narrative or the story
that, again, spirituality shouldbe easy, it should be natural,
(33:14):
it's just something thathappens. But why? Why do we
think that? What Why shouldn'tit be that the Creator of all
things who, who as we engagewith creation, we find that that
we require certain habits toachieve certain good things.
(33:38):
Exercise education, you know,any any sort of gold takes
homemade bread? Yeah, day today, like, Okay, I need to be
more disciplined in these areas.
And that's gonna take someeffort, energy and work. Why
would spirituality necessarilybe different?
Vanessa Caruso (33:56):
I think I know why. I think I know why we
confuse them. One of the reasonswhy at least, is because of a
verse like Come to me all youwho are weary and I will give
you rest. Take my yoke upon you.
It is easy and light. I think wecan confuse messages like that
and experiences like that in thespiritual life. Yeah, those
(34:17):
experiences of grace andforgiveness and flow, and
synchronicity, some of thethings that aren't totally
everyday experiences whenthey're very formative when they
do happen. Yeah. And they'rehealing. And we can expect that
that's how it works. Yeah, andthen we can confuse the work of
(34:38):
it with you know, like, I knowthat when I was getting into the
contemplative tradition andspiritual formation, people in
my life were suspicious thatthis was kind of like a works
righteousness ladder situation.
Where you know, if you, you'resaying you have to Be silent
(35:00):
everyday for 20 minutes. Doesn'tthat feel like you're trying to
earn something? So that's partof why it's problematic. Yeah.
The easy and difficult the habitand the grace. There's these
binaries that aren't actuallyreal. Yeah, are helpful, but we
live with them. Yeah,nonetheless.
Andy Withrow (35:23):
Yeah. Yeah. Cuz I think coming to Jesus and taking
on his yoke and receiving fromhim is a training and it's I
mean, the the image of the yokeitself is a training, your your
yoga image, the CrossFit wheretuition and you are, you are
being trained into a new way, agrace way, Grace filled way of
(35:45):
living, which does not comenatural to us. Yeah. And it's
easy. But it's, it's training.
Yeah.
Vanessa Caruso (35:54):
It's also hard.
Andy Withrow (35:56):
Is like the metaphor itself, that Jesus uses
is, it has a tension, it hasthis seemingly contradictory
nature. Yeah. Come to me, andI'll put a yoke on you. It's
easy and light. It's the it'sthe it's the easy and light
yoke. But it's a yoke on thelast that takes training and
practice. Yeah. Yeah, that's agood image. God's word is
(36:20):
everywhere, at least seems to be
Vanessa Caruso (36:22):
a big idea.
Number one. Yeah.
Andy Withrow (36:27):
And I think we'll come maybe come back to that
idea. At the very end, but yeah,the second thing is that God's
word is hidden, or, or hidden inthe sense that just following
the parable, it's when it'ssewn. As soon as it's sewn, it's
(36:49):
gone. It's underground, youcan't see it anymore. You don't
know, if it's working. You don'tknow what effect it had. You
don't know if it's gonna come upand turn into anything, there's
an invisible you don't see it,you don't get to see that part.
You're not we're not, we're notprivy to the, the individual
workings out of the seed, as ittakes root or doesn't in and in
(37:13):
comes to fruit. And to go back.
So we start with the historicalsituations, we talked about
Jesus going, teaching all overIsrael, all the synagogues, this
is what I'm here to do. care whoyou are, I'm gonna I'm going to
preach and teach. And and thenyou can just compare it to this.
See, that does not look veryimpressive. And it looks like
(37:34):
it's just even taking like, youcould just say, See going to the
ground, it's gone. If you didn'tknow how farming work, or her
you could look at this parableand say, Wow, a lot of obstacles
to the seed. Not gonna work onthe path not gonna work on rocky
soil not gonna work on weedinfested ground. That's the
(37:55):
majority of the sowing. It'sfailing. And so historical
situation we just talked aboutchapters 11 and 12. And in
Matthew's Gospel, looks like theteaching is failing Jesus.
People are rejecting it. Crowdsare fickle. Not everyone's
(38:16):
following you. Authorityauthorities are, are challenging
you. Your home family. You can'tif someone couldn't convince
their own family. Yeah. Wait aminute red flags here. Yeah. So
why is Jesus saying thisparable? Is it an apology? On
(38:39):
the part in the apologeticsense? Like, oh, here's a way to
understand what's happeningright now. Because if you looked
at my teaching ministry, itmight look to you like it's not
working and it's failing and whyam I following this guy? Let me
tell you the story about thesower in the seeds
Vanessa Caruso (39:01):
to very good, apologetic. Yeah, in that way.
Andy Withrow (39:07):
Yeah. Is just wait, just you wait. It's gonna
happen. I mean, the problem is,it's going to get worse before
it gets better. If you know therest of the story. Like it's
gonna really look like failureby the end.
Vanessa Caruso (39:21):
That does not sound
Andy Withrow (39:23):
why are we following this guy? What's the
plan? It looks like utterfailure. This is not what we
were picturing Messiah. This isnot what we were picturing a
person from God. Their trackrecord to look like. But we do
this all the time. With in ourin our lives and in our
(39:46):
spiritual lives, I think. Imean, when you when you were on
last time you were on a church.
Pastoral hiring committee. Yeah.
Were you looking for someonethat looked like failure?
Vanessa Caruso (39:57):
No. This is an apparent failure.
Andy Withrow (40:00):
Yeah, just apparent failure.
Vanessa Caruso (40:04):
But so, like,
Andy Withrow (40:05):
which church would higher Jesus at this point?
Yeah. Well, it really at anypoint in the Gospel story,
except maybe like the high pointof like, healings and popular,
right?
Vanessa Caruso (40:16):
No, speaking only in parables that are
failing. Something about thatphrase is so beautiful to me,
though apparent failure. I mean,it's, it's confusing, like, it's
not what I expect, either forsomething that I, you know,
believe in and give my life to.
But doesn't it remind you ofexperiences in life that were in
(40:42):
a, for all intents and purposes,an apparent failure? And then
you know, something way morevaluable than what success would
have looked like, actually comesfrom it. That that feels like a
pattern, or an equation that Ido know about, from personal
(41:06):
experience.
Andy Withrow (41:11):
It's the gospel pattern was the seed falls to
the ground and dies. It willnot. It will not come up again.
It's over and over and overagain. Yeah. Through the through
the prophets, gospel picks up onthat major theme.
Vanessa Caruso (41:34):
Know My instinct is to want to ask, why does it
have to be like that? But thatthat question hasn't gotten me
that far. You know, like to belike, Well, why couldn't you
have chosen a pattern? Yeah,that wasn't so painful. Yeah.
That That wasn't so scary,because there's like the liminal
(41:55):
space between the pain violenceand death or whatever. And,
yeah, the fruit and this passageor the crop right, but I don't I
don't I don't want to ask thatright now. Like, why? Because
there's no answer. Really? Imean, there are ways to think
about it that home.
Andy Withrow (42:17):
Yeah. Yeah, so God's God's Word, the Word and
maybe specifically the word ofthe kingdom here, or the work of
the Kingdom here in Jesus lifeappears it doesn't appear very
impressive once a small seedlooks good. Doesn't look like
unless you knew the nature offarming doesn't gonna do much.
(42:40):
And Jesus whole point is I'mcomparing this unknown thing to
something that is known so thatthey can see that the word of
God though, though, notimpressive, though, it looks
like it's failing, my ministrylooks like it's failing and a
huge embarrassing failuredefinitely does not look like
something God would have hishands on, to help them
understand why it looks thisway. And that it's going to turn
(43:03):
in the end, and why it's worthinvesting in. I like being a
part ofmaybe me, let's go to the third
point the pullback and do likeit were kind of bring it to our,
to our lives. Third, third, andlast thing. So despite the
(43:26):
hiddenness and the apparentfailure, of God's Word of God's
work in the world, God's word isdeceptively potent, and
powerful. So Jesus, preachingand teaching on the kingdom of
(43:47):
heaven, his work. So again,we're looking at the historical
situation of the gospelsituation. His preaching and
teaching on the kingdom ofheaven, will issue in his very
improbable, unlikely, unexpectedrate of return. So it's an
interesting parable, becausemost of the seed fails, but the
(44:12):
stuff that takes root more thanmakes like the net benefit is
like his way like it doesn'teven compare because he's
saying, so the the, the lowestone is the 30 times return on
investment, that's 3,000% rateof return sounds
Vanessa Caruso (44:32):
I don't know about investment and that sounds
that's
Andy Withrow (44:35):
that's it would Yeah, that'd be that'd be
consider a high investment.
Okay. I think 7% is pretty okay.
So 378 percent is you're doingpretty well like for kind of
your long term. Nice fundsright? From what I know Okay.
From the little that I know. Iknow that 33,000% is like your
we're getting into like if youinvested in Bitcoin, no back
(44:58):
pretty early. You know, the gunthe gun in the ground level and
the cryptocurrency?
Vanessa Caruso (45:03):
Yeah. Did you know? Oh, sure. tunity.
Andy Withrow (45:06):
Okay. Next time?
Yeah. Excellent. Okay. Butthat's the low one. So the high
one is 100 fold. It's1000 10,000% rate of return. So
it's like this. It's, it'sridiculous what Jesus is
pointing to? Same idea like thethe basic Mustard Seed
parabolics, smallest seed, largebush of the shrub of the field,
(45:27):
right? It's like, How cansomething so big come from
something so small? If you're afarmer, you're used to it.
Probably it's becomecommonplace, mundane. But that
thing, that's why Jesus ismaking the connections like you
have to think about this inthose terms. Yeah. Like you put
it in the ground. And anotherparable that we're not going to
(45:49):
get to in this chapter, it's notin this chapter is the farmer
soza See, doesn't you know, hegoes to bed doesn't, doesn't
think about it doesn't knowwhat's happening. And it
doesn't, is not involved withthe processes. He just goes
about his life and waits forthis thing that is way outweighs
the, the input. Yeah, the littleinvestment. That's what he's
(46:16):
comparing it to, like, invest inthis word, in this gospel in
this teaching, in thiscommunication, and these words,
this the self disclosure of Godto us, root in those things,
hold fast to those things, letthose things over time shape,
(46:37):
your life story. And then youwill be investing in these,
these benefits of the kingdom,which we haven't talked about,
because the parables are allabout how the Kingdom comes.
They don't even talk about thecontent of the kingdom.
Vanessa Caruso (46:57):
It's another which is
Andy Withrow (47:00):
in one, in one sentence or less. The whole Old
Testament of lies about theKingdom of God, it's like, well,
that's our time for today. Yeah,we got to go. The the prophets
are, are all over this, the andand the the first five books of
the Bible is like, God, Hisconcern is concerned about
(47:21):
goodness, about humanflourishing, about justice,
about peace. And that is thekingdom is God's presence with
us, and working out His will forall those things for for good
life together with one anotherand with God. Where it's fair,
(47:44):
and it's right in, it's good.
And there's mercy. And there'sjustice perfectly balanced. So
this is a very, very broad andbrief description of the
kingdom. And so that's sort ofin the background. You would
know this as a first centuryJewish person. The question is,
Why isn't it coming? Why is ittaking the time it's taking
(48:05):
why's it look like it's notworking out? It will come these
good things will happen in yourlife and in your community.
throughout time and space,through God working out in these
ways.
Vanessa Caruso (48:22):
So beautiful, Andy, if you had an altar call,
I would, I would come
Andy Withrow (48:26):
up, every head bowed. Like bring the lights
down, see my hand? I see thathand in the back of the office.
But really, it's
Vanessa Caruso (48:34):
just so yeah, it just really resonates. And it's
so beautiful. so inviting. Arewe allowed to to apply it to our
lives yet? Or anything more youwant to say about that one?
Andy Withrow (48:53):
Now, let's I don't know, because maybe we don't
relate. Maybe we don't feel likesometimes we don't see the
kingdom of God coming in ourlives. But I feel like I feel
like sometimes that's what Yes,we I do relate. Maybe
everything's always going greatall the time. And just like I
don't know what you're talkingabout. No, no. Okay.
Vanessa Caruso (49:16):
So one thing it makes me feel inspired about is,
yeah, when when my life lookslike an apparent failure, you
know, and I'm thinking to theoutside world, whatever that
means. I don't even totally knowwhat I mean by that, but just
(49:38):
shaping my days in such a waythat doesn't necessarily look
productive or hyper efficient orstrategic in the sense that what
I'm investing in, you know,underneath it all is Like, I
(50:02):
feel like my answers love, whatI'm what I'm doing what my aim
in my day is to love to lovewell. And that just doesn't
necessarily look superproductive or efficient. I
believe in being productive andstrategic as a Christian to,
(50:23):
yeah, no, I'm not saying like,just just walk barefoot through
the city for the day, whichthose people probably do know
something, actually, about thekingdom of heaven. But so
there's that kind ofconstellation that comes from
kind of following my instinctabout what's important, and
(50:44):
resisting the temptation to, youknow, catch up on Instagram, or
whatever I might feel like Ineed to do in order to get my
life together. So that comes upfor me. And then also just
something about making mistakes,like when you're talking about
(51:07):
the seed and how much of itthere is. And that's not really
the issue. It just reminded methat, that there's not a
shortage of forgiveness. That'snot the tone you get from
Jesus's life, or from the Biblefor me. And he just did one of
(51:27):
those.
Andy Withrow (51:28):
Yeah, I went to my Oh, my desk, and it wasn't
there. And I almost went to
Vanessa Caruso (51:33):
school. So I feel kind of like, a little bit
of a fire around why am I soafraid of making mistakes? Like
I'm I can be really hesitant. Ican overthink, I can like, try
to plan out having aconversation about something
because I just don't want tomake a mistake. Yes. And the
(51:53):
overall tone I'm getting fromthis conversation is go for it.
And yeah, I need to ask forforgiveness. Because I said
something. I, you know,exaggerated. All right. Yeah. It
wasn't the right way to say itwasn't good timing. Yeah. Or? I
don't know. Yeah. Then you justthere's more seats, like no big
(52:14):
deal. Yes. That's one of mytakeaways. Yeah,
Andy Withrow (52:18):
I like I think that's a really great takeaway
that came up in one of our, acouple of our neighbor tables
too. And we're kind of goingthrough this passage is just
what the one person said, Well,I'm always so guarded about who
I share what with in terms oftenin terms of their, their
relationship with God, or whatthey're sensing or what they're
(52:38):
hearing? And they said, Thisreally challenges me to be a bit
less afraid. A bit more like,just free with what I'm sharing?
Yeah, that's stupid or silly.
Or, or, or undiscerning on theone hand, but just like, maybe
it's more okay, just to sharewho I am as God is shaping me
(53:01):
the way that that he's shapingand speaking to me. Yeah. And
yeah, there's room for like, Oh,am I that? You know, if that
came at the wrong time or thewrong way? I'm sorry. Or? Well,
that's probably gonna breed morerelationship, isn't it? Yeah,
and and I think I think that'syeah, there's, there's something
(53:26):
there for me too, in terms ofjust a bit more trust, that God
is present in working throughthings and to just say the thing
or to do the thing that's sortof on my heart or in my mind,
yeah, at times. I suppose it'sbeing so guarded.
Vanessa Caruso (53:46):
Yeah, I like that. And also, it makes me it
reminds me that I've probablysaid this before it because it's
like an ongoing thing for methat there isn't this long. It's
Mary Oliver's poem, you don'thave to walk 100 miles through
the desert repenting. Like, Ijust assume that if change is
(54:08):
going to take place in me, Ihave to like really work for it.
And I have to pine over it, haveto struggle for it. And it's
going to come in the future. Andthere's something about even the
fact that Jesus relates bigideas of the kingdom to farming
or breadmaking. Yeah, it kind offeels like he's saying it's not
(54:30):
out there are over there. Orthen or when, like, they're the
way this works is that you canactually change today and not
change forever for all timewithout ever having to change
again, but there's like a lightheartedness and as an add to
(54:52):
just responding whereas myinstinct is to like be all emo
about it. Yeah, you know, for along time, right? It feels like
That's unnecessary.
Andy Withrow (55:01):
Yeah, I think so I think there's I just think
there's a freedom that comeswith really believing and
trusting that God wants us toturn to Him and loves us and is
ready to restore that, thatrelationship. Like, if we
really, if I really believedthat, then I then then there
(55:23):
would be all sorts of freedomnot to carry around this. What
was me this guilt, the shame.
And I could be instead movetowards gratitude and think live
out of a general thankfulnessand enjoyment of life, even even
in all its hardships, and inthe, in the harder things and
the difficult things. And, and,yeah, that's, that's a big
(55:46):
amount that's been a big imagineof shift in my life of, I'm
never going to be I'm nevergoing to be good enough in my
own in my own efforts. So I'mgoing to give up that pursuit.
And I'm going to trust God atHis Word, to say, You are
forgiven you're, you're my son,and you live in my house. And
(56:07):
and it's my pleasure, thatyou're in my house, living this
way. So go on, go about yourbusiness. Go Go do your work.
And, and I'm with you. It's it'sreally simple. And I think
that's the easy that's the easyyoke of it, but believing it is
the hard work. It's like to keepthose two things together. Yeah.
(56:30):
Like your free easy. I've donethat where is finished, I've
done that work looking at thegospel. So go go live does this
is an all just do that?
Vanessa Caruso (56:51):
Let Yeah,
Andy Withrow (56:52):
let me to say great. But that is the word of
the kingdom is this word ofmercy and peace and grace. And
that is the that is the that'swhy I'm abroad broken record if
you come to the table church,but there's why confession is
one of my favorite things isthis invitation to return.
(57:15):
Because it's what the doors arewide open. But I'm not going to
I'm not going to put you in aheadlock and bring you into the
house, turn and come into thehouse. And let's restore. But
it's really it is a whole notherepisode of the podcast about how
to how to let how to reallytrust despite our our own
(57:37):
history, our own badness or whatwhat's been told to us, in our
past about who we are, to let goof those things. is a is a
whole, a whole podcast series initself. But that's what's on
offer.
Vanessa Caruso (57:52):
Well, it occurs to me that the the grace and the
mercy and the returning is likethat is way simpler than we make
it out to be. But the soil isway more complicated and
convoluted and distracting thanwe think it is. Like we
(58:13):
underestimate kind of the wrongthings. We underestimate. What
Andy Withrow (58:19):
the obstacles the obstacles to, to coming to and
totally in, into, into remainingin.
Vanessa Caruso (58:26):
And then we overestimate the obstacles. You
know, like, Wait, it's just
Andy Withrow (58:31):
wrong. Yeah, maybe maybe we we think that we don't,
we think it's the wrong thingsthat are gonna keep us from
being in but it's these otherthings over here that we don't
give enough weight to. Yeah,that's good. It's a nice. That's
a nice little segue into nextone. Our next episode. Yeah,
yeah, that's good. But it didn'toccur to me, as we're talking
(58:55):
about that. Even that image ofthe door open and confession
come in. And he's made me thinkof another parable. Which of the
of the kid who left home? Yeah,and didn't go well? Yeah. And
he's like, hits rock bottom andcomes back home and it's like
Vanessa Caruso (59:16):
I'm gonna be a servant.
Andy Withrow (59:17):
Yeah, I miss a speech ready? I'm gonna do it
and all this stuff. And it'slike, doesn't doesn't even have
time to get and we're notcovering this, this parable. So
I wanted to bring it up here butyeah, doesn't even get his
speech out. That he wasrehearsing. And as his dad's
like, jumped, jumped the porchfast and running out and getting
a service to come and get getsome new clothes on. You are
(59:40):
having a party tonight.
Vanessa Caruso (59:42):
Something awesome.
Andy Withrow (59:44):
Don't worry about cuts, catch all that stuff
later. Like, isn't that amazingimage.
Vanessa Caruso (59:50):
Amazing if that was a movie, like it sounds like
Shawshank Redemption. He wouldwatch it. Oh, yeah. And I would
weep. I would it's too good tobe true.
Andy Withrow (01:00:00):
Yeah. Yeah, that is good. On that note, let's,
let's end there. And we're, thatwas a great teaser for looking
at what are the real obstaclesto, to walking through the doors
to coming back. And, andremaining in is that John 15
image of the vine remaining inJesus as our as our as our life
(01:00:21):
source. It's a nice comparativeparabolic image of this being
rooted in, in I mean, that's,that's not the image of the
sower one because we're justtalking about roots and soils
but but I think that is behindall of this is what are we
rooted in in terms of our lifesource? So okay, great. Thanks.
(01:00:43):
Nice to be back. Yeah, back inthe tiny tiny town bear with me
studios here. And we're gonna dowe're gonna do a bunch more on
the parables. So join us nextweek for part two of the sower
or the parable, the four seedsfor the Four Soils sorry. And,
and we'll look at the obstaclesto to seeing Jesus. Right. Okay,
(01:01:10):
have a good week. Bye. Bye,everybody.
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