April 14, 2022 • 64 mins
What are the obstacles to God's Powerful Word in our lives?
Why does God's Word appear to be failing in the world?
What role do we play in receiving God's Powerful and Transforming Word into our lives?
Vanessa and Andy took a look at these questions and seek to answer them by looking at Jesus' parable about the Sower, the Seed and the Soils.
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Episode Transcript
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Vanessa Caruso (00:01):
Welcome to the bear with me podcast where we
aim to integrate belief andpractice in the Christian life
Hey, Vanessa, Hi, Andy.
Andy Withrow (00:20):
How you doing?
Great. You back? Yeah, it's it'sbeen. I don't know how long it's
been for everybody else outthere. But it's been like, three
weeks or a month. Yeah. Yeah,definitely. You know, things
going on. Yeah. It's hard tofind time to get into bear with
me studios, just where we areright now. And we're going to do
part two of the sower in theseed, also known as parable of
(00:41):
the sewers, or sorry, parable,the court types of soil he
right, or Parable of the Sower,everyone, like I say, Fine, all
those are great. But just torecap a little bit from last
time. So last time, we talked,we kind of big picture and now
we're going to kind of zero inon the actual four types of soil
(01:02):
kind of the progression that theparables take, or this parable
takes. And, and last time, wetalked about this idea that God,
maybe God is more of a talker,than we tend to think he is
chatting a lot of our Yeah, alot of our human experiences,
can can often feel quiet orabsent. But the sower and maybe
the Bible presents a differentpicture of God as one who likes
(01:24):
to talk a lot. And I don't knowif we don't think we tease this
part out last time. But I hadbeen thinking that God does not
like to do fireworks so much ashe likes to talk. And maybe
argument propensity is to wantmore of the fireworks display.
(01:45):
Nice. Meaning like the signs inthe wonders that obviously hit
you over the head stuff. Yeah.
And I was thinking that maybethat we liked that, because it
takes less energy to watch afireworks display than it does
to listen to somebody. Talk andtry to understand them. Yeah,
(02:05):
right. Yeah, it's a littleharder. It takes more energy.
Yeah. Anyway. So that was one,because remember, the sower sows
the seed everywhere, like justreckless with the siege, selling
it in, not very good places,having strategic expect things
to crop up. Clearly not worriedabout limited resources, in
terms of the seed, right? Got totalk her. Second, we talked
(02:28):
about God's word being hidden,but at work. So not just God
isn't just at work in ways thatwe get to see but often most at
work in ways we don't get tosee. So Jesus says in Luke 17,
the kingdom is coming in waysthat are not observable, which
(02:52):
is just sort of astraightforward way of saying
what I think he's saying here inthe parable of the sower. Man,
God's Kingdom is active and atwork right now, in ways that you
cannot see. I love that. Andthen finally, we wrapped up last
time with despite it beinghidden or not, at work behind
(03:16):
the scenes, God's word ispowerful and highly productive.
So it's hard, hard to see. Inseed form. impossible to miss?
At the when it when it comes up,impossible to miss. Yes, yes.
Wilderness. Yeah. Easy to missthan impossible to miss.
Vanessa Caruso (03:35):
Right? Tricky.
So
Andy Withrow (03:41):
this one, we want to focus on the four types of
soil and three of these types ofsoil, talk about obstacles to
this part, like for all of thepotency of God's word, there are
things that can resist it, yes.
Or keep it from being fruitful,which is kind of a radical
(04:01):
concept. It is, well, we'll getinto in a minute, because this
is God's word, and it's highlypotent and powerful. And so what
are, what are the things thatthat can be obstacles to this to
this active agent? And it kindof leads to this other question
(04:22):
or is, or maybe this otherquestion kind of helps set up
this parable. If this, if thisis God's words, like if Jesus is
teaching and preaching, in thegospels, God's words in Jesus is
God's man. God's Son, Messiah.
(04:44):
Why does it feel like in theGospel stories, it's not
working? Right, the disciplesconstantly don't get it. He's
meeting up with resistance. Orwe might ask an RD if we're
Christian or even if we're notlike, Okay, well if this is if
Christianity is true, if g Hesays is the real deal? And
legit, then why does itsometimes or often feel like
(05:06):
Christianity isn't working,especially in our little neck of
the world? neck of the woods orpart of the world? Why does it
seem like it's losing ground?
And maybe on its way out?
Because that's what it can feellike to a lot of people
sometimes. Yeah.
Vanessa Caruso (05:18):
Right.
Andy Withrow (05:21):
So, we already know part of the answer from
last time is that it God's wordsown does not look that
impressive. It's a small thing.
It's just a word. It's notfireworks. It's not big and
fancy. It's just a seed. And assoon as it's sewn or spoken, you
don't see it. It's gone. Yeah,you don't see it anymore. For
(05:46):
all the world, it looks likeit's not doing anything, or
how's that done anything? Idon't know, if it's working, is
it growing? What's it doing anyisn't doing anything, I can't
see it. So but then we're gonnaget into some other elements. So
it's not just that it'sinvisible. It's just that there
are things that we can do toactively resist God's Word in
(06:08):
our lives and in our world. Soinstead of God's Kingdom taking
root in and around us in ourlives, where peace and justice
and things about the kingdomthat we've talked about before
it God's presence to ustransformation, goodness, mercy,
where those things could takeroot and grow up, and transform
and sprout, come to fruition inour lives, and our
(06:31):
relationships, and our world andour city, all this great stuff.
Instead of that happening, theword gets taken away, or it
shrivels up or it gets chokedout. And we don't see any
transformation or fruit. What doyou think it's so far?
Vanessa Caruso (06:46):
Gosh, so many things. I mean, you're going to
talk about this, but why arethere so many obstacles? If this
is supposed to be such a potent?
Against all odds, fruitfulbeyond belief? Planting or
sowing, you know? So hopefully,you can answer that one.
Andy Withrow (07:10):
Yeah, hopefully we can. It's yeah, that's, that's,
uh, that is, I think, to reallyunderstand the, the significance
of that is pretty is a prettybig deal. Yeah,
Vanessa Caruso (07:24):
that's a big,
Andy Withrow (07:25):
that's a big question,
Vanessa Caruso (07:26):
existential question. It's kind of a way of
saying why do bad things happen?
Yeah. It's a version of that.
Andy Withrow (07:33):
So why does God allow it to happen? Because if
he's so powerful, His Word is sopower. Yeah. And it's such a
good thing? For sure. Yeah.
Yeah.
Vanessa Caruso (07:39):
Why can it get shoveled and choked? Or snatched
so easily? Yeah. There's that.
But I do love the hidden part,like, the reality that there's
something at work behind thescenes, I find that so hopeful
to trust that God is alwayscommunicating and working like
(08:03):
there's some kind of renewal.
happening. Behind the scenes,Howard Thurman talks about the
will to wholeness, that's kindof in the fabric of our bodies.
It's relevant during a time ofpandemic. He just, you know,
says in his book, however, manydecades ago, that it's actually
(08:25):
amazing how many diseases ourbodies fight off, and how few
infections we actually succumbto, by getting a cold, you know,
much less how many we actuallydie to write. So he just says,
it's remarkable that there'sthis will to wholeness in our
bodies, always at work, and thatthere's a will to wholeness in
(08:47):
the world, and he says, That'sexpressive of God's God's force
of love that's always in theworld. And so he kind of says,
wouldn't it be great if we couldlive each day, relaxed at our
nerve center, because we trustthis will to wholeness? And it
will, if we could do that itwould allow us to live with
(09:07):
quiet enthusiasm is his phrase,and I just love that quiet,
quiet enthusiasm, which to mebelies that idea that that God
is always at work. There'salways renewal behind the scenes
if we have ears to hear, andeyes to see if we need some good
news. That it's there. We don'thave to move countries to find
(09:28):
it or change jobs or somethinglike that. That's what I mean is
that the accessibility is withinour grasp. Yeah, but it might we
might not think that becauseit's not super obvious. Yeah.
Andy Withrow (09:43):
Yeah, not what we would expect. There's a counter
intuitiveness to it. But likewith the other parables like the
treasure hidden in the field, orthe Pearl of Great Price,
there's this. There's thisaccessibility to it. That is you
maybe unexpected in some ways,like it's there in the field and
(10:05):
he didn't, wasn't expecting tofind it just found treasure.
Vanessa Caruso (10:08):
That's I've never thought about that parable
like that. Just the discovery ofsomething beautiful right under
your nose or under your feetthat you didn't expect. That
sounds like the the journey ofour lives is kind of discovering
Yeah.
Andy Withrow (10:23):
And that the we'll get to this in this. When we get
to that parallel with the theone right next with appropriate
price goes the other directionslike keep the merchant was
searching for he knew what he'slooking for. And then he found
it. So it's like Jesus put thesetwo back to back on purpose,
like the treasure the king ofsomething that you might not be
looking for. And you can stumbleover it and unexpectedly find
(10:45):
this great treasure. Or it'salso like this merchant who was
like he knew he knew find pearlswhen he found it. It's like, oh,
yeah, that's the one. Oh,
Vanessa Caruso (10:55):
I like that.
Both of those are there next toeach other? I can't wait to get
to that one.
Andy Withrow (10:59):
I know. We're getting ahead of ourselves. So
yeah, so let's let's jump intothis then. So this is Matthew
13. He gives the parable of thesower. He talks about why
parables then he comes back tothe parables or in verse 18. He
explains it. When anyone hearsthe word of the kingdom and does
not understand it, the evil onecomes and snatches away what has
(11:20):
been sown in his heart is wassown along the path. So it's the
first sowing, it's on the path.
And the first obstacle isunderstanding when anyone does
not understand it. So thispresents a little problem for
us, because it just seems so notlike God or Jesus. You're like,
(11:40):
sorry, you're too stupid. Youdon't get it. You don't get it.
You know, your IQ isn't highenough.
Vanessa Caruso (11:49):
I don't like that one. You don't? Yeah, you
don't like that? No, you don'tunderstand it.
Andy Withrow (11:55):
Yeah, so it doesn't sound right. And it
isn't. So Jesus, let's say one,two says to enter the kingdom,
you must become like a child.
Yeah.
Vanessa Caruso (12:07):
Right, and the foolishness of God.
Andy Withrow (12:11):
So what's going on? One way to understand this
is to know that that knowledgeand understanding in the
biblical setting has to do withpersonal knowledge, like an
experiential knowledge of, of,of something, or someone. So
Isaiah, who's often in thebackground of the Gospels, he's
in the background here, he'sjust been quoted in the previous
(12:33):
paragraph. So he's in thebackground of the stories. And
he, he uses the same term in theSeptuagint, versus a Greek
version of the Old Testament,the same term for understand and
what he meant by it. So here'ssomething from the first chapter
of his Isaiah, he says this, Theox knows its owner, and the
(12:54):
donkey, its masters crib. ButIsrael has not known me. And the
people have not understood me.
So he's this, this relationalknowledge sort of dimension to
what's happening here. isunderstood in Isaiah one here is
paralleled with, with known,which here means personal
knowledge, not intellectualunderstanding. So it's kind of
(13:15):
like our relationships. Yeah.
Don't you know me, Vanessa? Yes.
I thought you knew me. Right.
Right. That kind of you don'tunderstand. stand
Vanessa Caruso (13:25):
me. Yeah. Not like you don't intellectually
follow me. Yeah. Yes. But you'renot grasping with what you know
of me. You're not grasping.
Andy Withrow (13:35):
It's not because we're too dumb, is because maybe
we're not invested in therelationship. Right, or we don't
want to hear it. We've got someinternal resistance to
acknowledging what what theother person is about or what
they're saying. There's internalresistance at work. And I think
this fits this passage, becausethat's literally what Jesus was
(13:59):
just talking about in theprevious paragraph, which we
haven't gotten to yet. We'll tryto get to that with with one of
these episodes on the purpose ofparables where Jesus talks about
why he's speaking in parables.
But this is the this is thesetting. There's internal
resistance to what's to who thisperson is and what's being said.
So this is the seed that fell onthe hard path. This is the Word
(14:20):
of God that falls on a hardenedor resistant part, oh, man, he
doesn't want to hear it. orparticipate in fast forward to
Isaiah seven from Isaiah one,where God is warning the king of
Israel at that time not to fearthe nations but to rather trust
God. So he's talking about theseother nations. The head of
(14:42):
Ephrem is Samaria. The head ofSamaria is the son of
vermillion. So he's talkingabout the country, the city and
in the king, if you do notbelieve, neither shall you
understand. So profit ispairing, understanding with
belief or trusting loyalty? Ifyou don't trust me, you're not
(15:04):
going to understand me.
Vanessa Caruso (15:08):
Trust is a good replacement for understand in
that original part of theparable, I feel like then
Andy Withrow (15:16):
yeah, like, as trusting as a prerequisite to
comprehending, understanding?
Yeah. Right. If we don't we havethese in our relationships, we
don't trust one another. Yeah,then it's hard. It can be hard
to understand. Yeah, to wrap ourminds around it. Where someone
else is coming from why they'redoing the things they're doing.
Vanessa Caruso (15:39):
So do you I relate with this, like, I know,
this is true about me internal,the idea of of being resistant
to something or, like kind of ahardness to my demeanor, or
something like that inrelationships. But can you think
(16:00):
of what this looks like? Likewhat what does it look like? For
Andy? When times when you'relike, on that hard path? If
that's the right way to eveninterpret the parable?
Andy Withrow (16:13):
Like in personal relationships? Yeah. Yeah, but I
do know this, I mean, that. Somy experience, and I don't know
if I can think of a specificone. But in general is when I
work, like, when there's maybestrain in a relationship, or if
something isn't working outbecause of behaviors, or I just
(16:37):
don't, I'm not on the same pagewith this person. I know that
going back to the roots of,okay, if I care about this
person I want to try tounderstand in that usually moves
me towards work, becausesometimes they just don't want
to do the work of understandingor it's you can think of I mean,
(17:00):
a great example, for a lot of usis political differences. Like
we have our political leanings,and we have a hard time
understanding someone who's on adifferent political divide. But
if there's somebody we careabout, then you start to Okay.
Can I see it from theirperspective? Yeah. But it's
because of the caring part.
Right, and the investment in arelationship part. If I don't
(17:25):
force myself to go in thatdirection, then I'm not going to
do the work of, okay, maybe Ineed Can I read with a bit more
charity? Or can I do a littlebit more work to try to
understand where they're comingfrom?
Vanessa Caruso (17:38):
Yeah, that's a great example.
Andy Withrow (17:43):
Yeah. So So I say, pairs, this understanding with
this trusting loyalty? Yeah.
overlapping with that personaltype of knowledge that we're
talking about? Yeah. But it addsthis dimension of commitment,
right, I'm committed to thisperson, therefore, I work harder
to understand. Or if I knowthem, well, if I'm committed to
(18:05):
them in a way, where I've gottento know them, well, then it's it
becomes easier for me, oh, Iunders. I see why she's seeing
it this way. Or he's sayingthose sorts of things.
Vanessa Caruso (18:16):
Yeah. Right.
Andy Withrow (18:21):
So Jesus is talked about in the previous paragraph
that we haven't gotten to yet,because it's the purpose of
parables. He's told them thatyou are His disciples, he's just
talking to His disciples there.
So he goes away from the crowds,they say, Why are you speaking
in parables? And he says,basically, you are all insiders.
You're with me? You know, me,you're learning to trust me
that's worth quite a lot,actually, more than you think
(18:42):
probably. Because without that,believing trust, it's actually
impossible to comprehend whatI'm talking about. It's
absolutely impossible tocomprehend the kingdom of God.
Maybe because it's so different.
Yeah. So it's socounterintuitive to the way that
our world works. That that wouldtake a lot of trust. To see
(19:07):
things so differently. I thinkthere's gotta be something like
that going on. Yeah. And thesepassages. And the Word of God
cannot grow in you, it can'teven penetrate the hardness of
your heart. That's what'samazing, though, it gets back to
what we're kind of talkingabout. For God's word is so
powerful. Like we're justgetting to the biblical
(19:29):
worldview here. Genesis one,God's word responsible for all
of creation, literallyeverything we see, and touch and
feel and know. Right? Lightland, heavens, earth stars, sun,
moon, fish, animals, humans, allbut by the power of God's Word.
(19:49):
So in the Bible says, By God'sword, he raises up and opposes
kingdoms
Vanessa Caruso (19:55):
is the same sewing Word,
Andy Withrow (19:58):
Word will not return empty but will will
accomplish its work and Isaiahis like you're not finding
something more powerful in thebiblical worldview than the Word
of God what He says happens
Vanessa Caruso (20:12):
except here where it's very precarious are
very susceptible to
Andy Withrow (20:19):
yes obstacles well I mean even in this whole
parable the words ultimatelygoing to succeed with this
ridiculous return on investmentbut yet to your point, God
invested the human heart thatseat of our will and our loyalty
don't think emotions that wasthe kidneys in the, in the, in
their worldview, heart was willand loyalty okay. Yeah, belief
(20:45):
in loyalty and intellect aswell. So he got invested the
human heart with such dignityand power that he allowed it to
not be overwritten by his wordthat it can resist and even the
power of God's word we'reallowed to resist it
(21:14):
God has given it the power toresist it if we choose radical I
think that's just an importantpoint because it does get back
to you why so much was why somuch evil in the world? Why is
there so much dissidents? Andwhy does God allow it? He's
(21:34):
whether you agree with him ornot. He's invested the human
heart with with a great withthat ability to resist like that
was important to him. And youstart thinking of well, what's
the alternative? Well, then youstart to lose some things, don't
you in terms of your humandignity and freedom? Yeah, that
time God feel that Godprioritized, I'm going to
(21:57):
preserve that. And we're reallygoing to let them choose even
though it's going to cost a lotit's gonna be super painful and
hard. I'm not going to game thisfrom the start. In other words,
just say, well, I'll justoverride I'll just press the
override button if I don't likehow things are going in that
isn't that nuts? Yeah, it is. Sokind of gives you a scary sense
(22:21):
of our own our own power in thatsense to resist such goodness
and beauty and kingdom stuff.
Yeah. He wants our trust andloyalty and he's not going to
cheat to get it he's put thatlimit on his own power in this
(22:41):
in this scenario. Because youthink well, God can do anything
why does he just you know, yeah,x y Zed. You know? I don't know.
It's like well, but if he's he'she wants to preserve this thing
over here and give us trueautonomy in that sense then he's
got to do it a different way hecan't just strong arm us into
(23:02):
the kingdom
Vanessa Caruso (23:04):
yeah
Andy Withrow (23:08):
Wow doesn't want to fill his kingdom with people
who are like I don't really wantto be here so this is the word
that falls on us when we resistwhen we refuse to come to Jesus
interesting loyalty. We fail toknow Him in His saving power and
understand Him in His teachingon God's good kingdom. That's it
(23:31):
that's what I wanted to sayabout that first one.
Vanessa Caruso (23:35):
That's all I think about I kind of always
pictured the with the snatching.
I always pictured like a crow.
Andy Withrow (23:45):
Yeah, you're right. And we didn't really talk
about that
Vanessa Caruso (23:47):
though. Does it have a burden? Oh, no wonder
Andy Withrow (23:51):
does the evil one comes and snatches away what has
been sown in his heart?
Vanessa Caruso (23:57):
Yeah, it feels like it feels pretty exposed,
just like my connotations withyou know, this soil or this
place that this seed is sown.
That it's some
Andy Withrow (24:09):
Yeah, if it's not received it will be taken from
you. Yeah.
Vanessa Caruso (24:14):
And now I'm hearing that consent that you're
saying God prioritize says likeour capacity to consent or
resist. So there's this likemechanism of consenting that
didn't happen between the soiland this seed. And so there it
(24:36):
was left exposed to beingsnatched. So the question, one
of the questions would be, whatdoes it look like to receive or
consent even if we're not thereyet? Like even if we do feel
resistance, or confusion orsomething It made me think that
(25:01):
we've talked about this prayerbefore, but I want to want
prayer is such a great option.
When we're not there yet, youknow, yeah, like, I want to want
to trust you in this lifedecision coming up. But I'm
pretty scared because I feellike I'm gonna be asked to do
something I don't want to do orwhatever. The profession there
(25:22):
is,
Andy Withrow (25:24):
right? And if yes, but I mean, the whole Bible just
puts such a priority on ourhumility. Right? Yeah. Because
it's that's kind of overlap withthat posture of our of our
heart.
Vanessa Caruso (25:40):
Yeah. I feel like we go on to the next one,
because more might come aboutthis one kind of in, in
relationship with the otherones.
Andy Withrow (25:52):
Yes, that's good.
So that's the first one, it wasthe seat on the path. Resistance
to God's words. The second onehas to do with with the root
system. So the stuff that'shappening underground. So think
of roots as conduits of waterand nutrients. The stronger the
(26:17):
roots, the stronger the plant.
Jesus warns next that even thosewho do receive the word that is
the trust and believe they canstill struggle if they do not
have roots within themselves. Inother words, it appears that
God's word can be received andnot kept. Soon as things get
(26:41):
hard because of the word,because of what was said, or
what was sown. That personwithers up where they fall away.
So this often gets translatedflips, translated, tribulation,
the Greek word is flips. Thismeans crushing pressure is a
(27:03):
better word than tribulation,yeah, crushing pressure, it's a
lot easier to imagine. It's notjust like what we might think of
if you've heard of beingpersecuted for your faith. Yeah,
that's probably definitely partof it. But it's a lot bigger and
broader than that. It's thepressure that comes when two
opposing kingdoms collide. Sothink about the goodness of
(27:25):
God's kingdom, and coming in itsvalues and what it's about
coming into collision with thekingdom, that of this world that
were a part of our, our culturalmoment. And so I would argue
that gets us here in NorthAmerica, as sure as it gets
anybody in the world might lookvery different. Feel it very
(27:47):
differently. But there is a costto your trusting obedience to
Jesus. We live in a world in akingdom that is definitely
hostile and at odds with thekingdom of God on some
significant points. So if that'strue, then we need something
that sustains us that feeds usthat strengthens us, in the
(28:11):
midst of this collision, thiscrushing pressure. So these
roots that conduits of of lifeand nutrients, and life
sustaining water, it reminds meof John 15, where Jesus uses
another image for this similaridea, I am the vine, he says,
and you are the branches Remainin me and you will bear much
fruit. So I think we're meant tosee these roots as habits of
(28:35):
devotion. means by which weremain IN JESUS, how do we stay
connected to this source oflife. Paul says in First
Timothy, the love of money isthe root of all kinds of evil or
a root of all kinds of evil. Soyou kind of get this thing that
helps the negative image but ithelps with this idea of why our
(28:58):
roots in that image, their theirlove or devotion to one thing.
That's the root of all kinds ofother things. If you are loving
and devoted towards one thingthat serves as a as a input that
can lead to all sorts of otherfruit, whether it's good fruit
or bad fruit. So if the rootspeaks of a devotion to God in
(29:25):
Jesus, it leads to all sorts offruit. We've seen this parable,
but the roots must remainstrong, or the crushing pressure
of climbing kingman's will betoo much for us, overwhelm us,
one of us feel that. So we canthink of the habits of Christian
devotion, community and worship.
Prayer, whether it's alone orwith others, regular reading and
(29:47):
study of God's words written tous in the Bible, meditation
reflection on on the Bible orlistening for God's voice in our
lives. We've talked about A lotof accountability and mutual
encouragement and Christiancommunity. Just to name a very
few. There's tons of them. Yeah.
(30:08):
Right. And they can lookdifferent. So these practices
lay down roots that connect usto the source of life, and
sustainability in the midst ofthe crushing pressure that we
find ourselves in. So, this isone way to think about
overcoming, if we think aboutthese in terms of obstacles,
okay, there's humility andtrust, there's habits of
(30:31):
devotion, how do I make sureI'm, I'm plugged into or
connected in these ways, to thisto this source of life to Jesus.
Knowing that, if we can overcomethese obstacles, then seeds just
(30:52):
grow. So it's not like we haveto work hard at the growing of
the thing. We just have to findthe practices and the positions
and the postures, and maybe onepart imagination, of sting of
just staying connected at theroots, which I think is an
easier way for me to think aboutit. Yeah. Instead of going to
(31:15):
the gym to workout. Which Idon't do Yeah. It's, it's a,
it's a putting myself in aposition of space. I mean,
there's some overlap with that,because that is a habit. And it
is this is building a certainkind of muscle. Yeah, but it's
not a it's not I need to makethe fruit grow. It's like, yeah,
(31:40):
will take care of itself. If youjust, if you just work these
habits, simple habits, I think,into our daily or weekly lives,
or monthly lives, or whatever,whatever the case may be.
Vanessa Caruso (31:53):
Yeah, that's,
Andy Withrow (31:54):
I know, you've got some thoughts on
Vanessa Caruso (31:55):
Oh, yeah, I do.
Where do I start? When youtalked about, you know, this
soil. So the previous soil iskind of about receiving
consenting to accepting like,there's a hardness and it
doesn't actually unfold theseed. And then it can get
snatched up. And then you saidabout this one, it's possible to
(32:16):
receive it, but not to keep it.
And that made me think of theidea of observance. You know, in
Deuteronomy, when it talks aboutthe Shamal, like Love the Lord
your God with all your heart,soul, mind and strength, love
your neighbor as yourself, andtalk about these things when you
walk on the road. And when youlie down, it uses the word
(32:40):
observe somewhere in there, youknow, observe these things,
which reminds me of a holiday,how we observe holidays. So the
idea of keeping something andobserving something just reminds
me of that way of being human,where we need the set apart,
times within the year, withinthe week within the day, where
(33:05):
we observe what it is that weascribe to, or believe or love.
And it's not like a once anddone thing, you don't want time
in your life, you haveChristmas, and that and then
you're good to go. You know,it's like a regular part of our
lives to observe Christmas. Sothat's one way for me to think
(33:26):
about the roots. And thistension between the effort
required to make fruit growversus the effort required to
create space, so that we don'tfill up our lives with the
things that the kingdom of theworld, you know, fills up our
lives with. Stephen, my husbandis reading a book by his
(33:50):
favorite author Johann Hari,called something about focus,
like losing focus or findingfocus or, but Johann Hari is a
journalist and has written thesereally unique. Or he talks about
things that are very common,like when the first one is about
addiction. Second book was aboutdepression, and he sees them
(34:11):
from these really unique vantagepoints. So this one is about our
inability to stay focused. Andthe context switching and that
happens so much. So this is athis is not talking about, like
how to be a Christian, but justfrom the episode I listened to
describing the book, he talksabout, you know, the need for
(34:34):
mind wandering spaces in ourlives, like walks where our mind
wanders, instead of having allthe input that we have this is
reminded me of our Cal NewportNaomie idea with technology, how
it things just are coming intous so often, like we're working
(34:56):
on something and then we get atext and we just think like I'm
gonna check the text, no bigdeal. Oh, you know, I might need
to know something. But the costof check, checking that text,
and returning to our focus is,is a lot bigger than we think it
is. And so his idea of thesemind wandering spaces preserving
them, that reminds me a lot ofthe idea of discipleship or
(35:19):
spiritual formation. It, itdoesn't seem like a lot of
effort. It's a different kind ofeffort. It is effort to preserve
for him to preserve space in hismonth, and in his week to have
these mind wandering walks whereintegration happens, inspiration
happens, problem solvinghappens. That's what it's like
(35:40):
in spiritual formation. It's theeffort to create space. Yeah,
where that kind of integration,internalization can happen. So
we don't do that, that big worklike the heavy lifting, but we
can. Sometimes we stumble uponit in the field, and it just
happens to us and we weren'ttrying at all. But overall, the
(36:03):
main invitation I feel like tous as humans is are you going to
create some
Andy Withrow (36:08):
space? Yeah, it's the it's the Sabbath observance.
Yeah. I mean, that was one dayand seven. But the principle is
like, creating these protectingthese spaces. So you like a bird
sanctuary or wildlife urge, youknow, refuge or something where
these things are not allowed.
You can't hunt here. Yeah, don'tbring your guns here. This is a
safe place to kind of preserve.
(36:29):
Yeah, wildness. And, and I thinkwe have the ability to do the
same thing with our day or ourweek, or just fine. Okay, what's
Where's where do I get called myhalf hour walk, and just without
my phone or things that willtend to distract me? And just
(36:49):
think, or just meditate andreflect on one truth about who
God is, and, and, and who he is,in my life, what he's doing, or
whatever the thing is, yeah. Andthese that I think part of the
trick of these things is they'renot, they're not measured,
they're not super measurable inand of themselves. Yeah, they're
(37:10):
not, they're not the fruit. Andwe tend to feel good about our
fruit. And I think we, I thinkone of the mistakes that we
make, or a common mistake thatwe can make in our spiritual
lives or in our lives, don'tforget, I said, the word
(37:31):
spiritual in our lives is thatwe try to grow upside down
trees, were the we're trying toget our sense of worth identity
from our fruit. We're trying touse our fruit as our source of
who we are, but fruit is forothers. And when we mess that
(37:52):
up, then it's like we're tryingto force fruit to grow. We're
trying to like really sell ourfruit to ourselves as much as
anybody else. Say, I'm goodbecause of this fruit. Whereas
the biblical image is, fromPsalm one and all over the place
is, and here in Matthew 13. Isthe roots are hidden
underground. But those is that'sour source. And they're not very
(38:15):
measurable. They're not thingsthat people see. Yeah. But
that's where we get ouridentity. And that's where we,
that's what tells us who we are,and whether our fruit turns out
good or not. And so the more wecan learn to forget about the
fruit, don't care about thefruit. You don't even let your
(38:38):
left don't know what your righthand is doing since Jesus and
when you're doing your gooddeeds. Yeah, like, don't even
care about it. Yeah. Focus,invest in the roots. That's
where your work is. Yeah. Andit's for because this is my life
for a preacher that is spendingtime where nobody sees you,
(39:00):
doing the study, thepreparation, getting to go
deeper into the Bible, becausethat's what part of what your
job is what you have time for.
But no one measures that I'm notfilling out any time sheets to
say I did this this week, andshowing it off to people. It's
just hidden somewhere, and itwill, it will come out or not
(39:21):
over the course of time, but youcan. But that's true of all our
lives, isn't it to be a preacheror a pastor, for that to be true
in terms of your ownfruitfulness in the lives of
your family, or your friends oryour co workers or anyone you
come into contact with will whatis the nature of the fruit that
you will have on display? Yeah.
(39:43):
And where are you getting?
What's your source to get thatfruit because that's gonna make
all the difference? Yeah. That'sa difficult shift for us. I
think there is not getting ourworth and identity and
enoughness from What fruit we'reoffering, it's hidden, it's
deeper underground. In thisparable, it's what's happening
(40:04):
underneath. And where am I?
Where am I getting my lifesource from?
Vanessa Caruso (40:11):
There is something freeing about it, too.
It's difficult because it'sreally counter intuitive.
Andy Withrow (40:16):
Difficult because it's not measure, but it's also
freeing because it's notmeasured. Right? It reminds me
of this just for me, Yeah, yoursjust be in this God moment, or
this, this personal thing? Yeah.
Vanessa Caruso (40:29):
It also reminds me of people, friends who have a
big presence on social media fortheir work, you know, or their,
whatever they do. And just theweight they talk about of, of
needing to always be looking forcontent. You know, they're in
their, at their children's livesand the craft they did in the
walk on the Sabbath. It's kindof hard, it seems like to
(40:52):
differentiate between, am Idoing this because of the
content it will give me? Andwhat I'll be able to post
because of it, or am I doing itkind of as an end in itself?
Because, you know, I rememberJosh talking about that on
sabbatical, like takingpictures, gorgeous pictures in
the Yukon, not to use them in asermon or anything just for his
(41:16):
life and his enjoyment, and hissense of vocation as a person.
So there's it that sounds like acrushing weight, when there is a
lot of confusion there betweenthe fruit like the content and
motivation, or however you saythat. And it reminds me of the
(41:36):
last episode on the sower. Andone takeaway for me was, was
like, I could make so many moremistakes. Something about this
makes me think, there, it's okayto make mistakes. Like, the
consequences don't feel it, thestakes don't feel as high. And
(41:57):
when we're talking about it likethis, that sounds fraying too,
Andy Withrow (42:01):
when you're trying to curate your fruit, for
example, you can't afford tohave one that's shriveled or
when you're talking about rootsystems. They're gnarled they're
all over the place. It doesn'tmatter what they look like,
yeah. How far down? Can we go?
How far out? Can we go? Yeah.
And just take in what is onoffer. And what's on offer is
(42:26):
nutrient rich, soil witheverything you need, and more
like, the image is abundance allthrough the Bible, God has more
than enough for us if we'rewilling to invest in this part.
Right? This part that doesn'tget measured, not just not just
(42:46):
the measuring that what do otherpeople think about me? Oh,
that's a big one, especially forus nines, but, but also just
what am I? What am I doing withmy life? What am I producing,
even even for me, or for myfamily, or that sort of thing?
It's like, those are reallygood, right things and good
things to be concerned about.
But the principle remains, ifwe're not investing in the root
system, it doesn't matter. Italmost doesn't matter how hard
(43:09):
we're working on some level.
It's, it's you're not you'regonna it's gonna be a poverty
mentality. Like I can't getenough can't do enough.
Vanessa Caruso (43:19):
It's rearranging deck chairs on the Titanic. No,
Andy Withrow (43:21):
it's It's back to he has his back to Jesus saying,
seek this thing. First, seekthose clothes, food shut, you
know, all those things areimportant. But if you seek this
thing, first kingdom of Godfirst. All these things will be
added to you as well. That was aradical promise that I can't
(43:45):
make to you. Yeah. But I'mthankful that I didn't. Yes,
that's what that's what Jesus issaying is on offer here. I know
it's risky. And but at somepoint, I say, Okay, God, I'm
gonna Okay. Okay. I'm gonnatrust you with that. And I'm
gonna start to build in spacesto work on my root system.
Vanessa Caruso (44:08):
Good, Andy.
Okay, one idea before we move onto the next one. This is the
last obstacle coming up. So whenI was thinking about what does
it mean to observe? To keep theword or observe it like a
holiday, it reminded me that Igo in and out of these seasons
of trying centering prayer, youknow, which is like, a way of
(44:31):
praying silently. So not comingup with any words or anything.
But setting a timer for 20minutes and saying, I'm just
going to be here. I'm not goingto try to focus on the fruit or
if I feel good from this, or ifI have good thoughts during this
or if I stay blank during this.
(44:53):
The idea is not to stay blank.
So I've been doing this foryears and there's just different
seasons of how In a differentkind of metaphor for what that's
like, because it, I just know,it's good for me. So there's
something about it that is verygood for me. Probably my
perfectionism because it's avery like, there's nothing to
do. So last week that I've beendoing it, what's come to mind,
(45:15):
as I'm sitting there and justreturning, like, every time I
realize I'm off wandering,thinking about something I need
to do or worried aboutsomething, or rehashing a
conversation in my head, and Ijust come back to, alright, I'm
just sitting in God's presence.
What's come up for me isthinking, what I'm doing here
(45:37):
silently, with my eyes closedfacing the window facing the
sun, is I'm just letting Godhave a little bit of airtime.
Because the rest of my day, Goddoesn't really get a word in
edgewise, in a way, I don'tactually believe that. But as
soon as I get into my to do listand on email, and working on
(45:58):
stuff, and having a kid andbeing with neighbors, it feels
like this is this is the littlemoment in my day, where I'm
going to say, I do actuallybelieve that the reality of God
is the most real thing ever.
It's not gonna seem like that.
For if an alien was here, youknow, they would think like,
What are you talking about youremails very real, it's like
(46:20):
calling to your texts are veryreal, you need to eat, it's very
real, what you're gonna do withyour life is very real. But that
20 minutes of just returningsilently, my attention and
saying, I'll give you someairtime like that this is this
20 minutes is for the reality ofGod, to observe it. I can't do
(46:42):
anything, but just observe itand hope that that affects the
rest of my day. But that's myone example. Yeah,
Andy Withrow (46:49):
that's good example. I think we're working
on new website that bear withme, yeah, we're going out for a
while. But I would like us toget to a point where, where we
get that all up and running. Andbecause I think examples are
helpful or in and I just imaginepeople could feel overwhelmed,
(47:11):
like, well, I don't know whereyou guys get this time. It's
like, Well, really, you couldjust start with 15 minutes, if
you could find 15 minutes, or 30minutes in a week. What would
you do with like, I imagined ofputting up a blog post like that
mostly written by you? Where,where you said, if you have 15
(47:32):
minutes a week, here's a couplethings you could try. Yeah, half
an hour and a week. Yeah, if youhave 15 minutes a day, here's
some things you could do if youhad five minutes a day or
something like that an hour youknow, it's like here's some
things is not you know, I thinkthat could be that could be
really useful thing. I love thatbecause sometimes I just need a
(47:52):
step like just get me startedYeah, some training wheels we
have so give me a step by stepand then and then I can kind of
learn what we're you know how itworks and all that sort of
thing. So stay tuned stay soundmaybe that'll get us a actually
making on this some back to thatokay. last obstacle ready? Are
we ready? So we've had theresistance the personal
(48:18):
allegiance insiders, outsiderslike are you with Jesus or not?
Because that does make adifference. And and, you know,
the Bible counts that countshumility in our favor. So even
those who like I don't want tooverstate it because there's in
the Bible is people who don'tknow Jesus, but they have the
(48:38):
right posture, and that makesall the difference. So don't
just think people who go tochurch who don't go to church I
don't think it's quite likethat. Yeah, I don't think that's
what's what's happening here.
But there is something aboutabout stumbling upon this
treasure and holding on to it inin in getting the wisdom and
insight from it. Okay, last onecompeting allegiances. This
(48:59):
third, I said first oneresistance. Second one keeping
system system working on yourroot system, third, one,
competing allegiances.
(49:22):
A strong temptation forcompeting allegiances. God's
word can be heard. It can bereceived, and then it can get
choked out. So, Jesus saysspecifically the cares of this
world and the deceitfulness ofriches like weeds that choke out
(49:46):
the plant. These are competitorsfor our allegiance. Tell me
about it. There are all sorts ofgospels out there. Lots of good
news.
Vanessa Caruso (49:57):
I like that idea.
Andy Withrow (49:58):
Lots of good news.
As you said, We're constan Weare being bombarded with stuff.
Yeah, with messages how thisthing's gonna change your life
that thing's gonna change yourskin. This thing's gonna change
your everything, whatever.
Everything constantlyadvertising and marketing for
our very souls attention. Yes,it's spiritual. Yeah. It's
(50:21):
spiritual was super holes juston all those ads yeah that they
spent billions of dollars on orhowever much sounds dramatic but
that's I think that's the aim ofall good marketing and
advertising Yeah, battle foryour soul. How can we find the
good life? How can we putsalvation in a bottle or on a
screen or in an experience? Sowe're always doing that we're
(50:45):
all experts at envisioning thekind of life and lifestyle that
will be our ultimate meaningthat will really fulfill us.
Give us ultimate meaning andsignificance, tell us who we
are, and why we're good, whywe're enough, all that stuff.
And then there's the means toget that money's the popular
(51:06):
ones so popular that Jesusactually calls it out
specifically, with cares of theworld. More generic cares of the
world. And just like God's wordis everywhere, but hidden. All
the none of that impressive zoomform. The word of this world's
Kingdom is also everywhere, butit's a lot more sexy. In your
(51:30):
face. Great graphic designersfor that stuff. super
impressive. It's very alluring.
Yeah. And often superconvincing, especially when you
put it side by side with theseat of God's Word. So does God
need to hire a marketer? GraphicDesigner and Superbowl
commercial compete? put an ad inat the Superbowl. Right.
Vanessa Caruso (51:56):
Yeah, what would the ad say?
Andy Withrow (52:01):
Yeah, well, that's just I mean, it's just such a
it's just such a juxtaposition.
We're talking about these twothings side by side. Yeah, it
kind of goes back to thefireworks stuff, which were just
so much more. Just so mucheasier. Set of fireworks. Yeah,
to have a relationship with aperson. Yes. It just does feel
like God can't compete. Whichfeels funny to say but you know,
(52:28):
with with the way he's goingabout things with the note, my
word is enough. It's powerfulenough, it's that'll be all you
need. It'll change your life.
And because tied in with theword is the presence of it's the
presence of the king. Right? TheKingdom. Yeah. So. So that's the
that's the thing. That's why Ithink that's a big reason why
(52:51):
working on our root system is sohard as we just talked about,
it's just there's so muchcompetitors. Oh, yeah. For our
time and attention and ourenergy. And it's not even bad
things. No cares of this worldmoney. Those are really helpful,
practical thing. Yeah. That Idon't think Jesus hates. He's
just saying you got you. Thosewill choke out. Yeah, this thing
(53:14):
if you let them. Yeah, you can'tlet them. Let me just wrap up my
thing. Great. And then we'lltalk more. Okay. So the whole
point of this parable is thateven with all these obstacles,
the resistance, the the the noroots, the no root system, the
(53:36):
competitors, the competingallegiances, that despite all
that God's word wins. In theend, it has no rivals, if you're
just looking at not looking atthe individual level, like Andy
and venison house gods weredoing there. But look at the big
picture. Like for all the seedthat was lost in those first
three things, so you there'sthere's four outcomes, the
(53:56):
majority of the majority of themdon't work. So it looks more
like failure than success. Butthen the one outcome that does
work, it works so well, that itmore than like a save and close
it more than makes up for theloss of everything else. So
getting back to the sort of thesetting in Jesus life, which we
talked about last time. That'swhat it looks like. It's like
(54:20):
he's got his disciples andeveryone else is just like, even
his families you know, and thenhe's got his enemies and they're
plotting to kill them, you know,all this stuff. It's like, and
then it's gonna get worse beforeit gets better. So it really
looks like it's, it's, it's notworking. But you can see where
(54:41):
they're where the obstacles aretaken away. God's word just
explodes where roots are allowedto grow deep and the competition
has been weeded out. You get areturn. That's, like if you
think about it in financialterms of return, it's ridiculous
3000 6010 1000 rate of return,that's 100 fold is a 10,000%
(55:05):
rate of return. So if you boughtBitcoin five years ago, it would
only be at about a 5,000% rateof return for comparison, but
10,000 rate of return. This isthe fruit of God's Kingdom, the
space where God was present tous, is in his will is being
(55:27):
worked out in our lives, thispeace, this goodness, this
flourishing and growth and loveand joy and justice. And this
all comes back to God's desireto share with us that God is a
talkative person. And that's hisprimary way of being with us in
(55:48):
the world is communication.
Very, very relational, veryhuman and apparently divine way
of being with someone. Even inthe gospels, when Jesus says the
miracles, he's like, Ah, don'tworry about it. It's not the
main thing. Yes, signs towardsthe bigger thing that is hid the
stuff that's hidden. And heresists he resist sticking
(56:14):
around? When things are goingwell, with the miracles now it's
time to move on? Yeah. Itdoesn't like it doesn't does not
seem to like to do them thatmuch.
Vanessa Caruso (56:26):
Yeah. Yeah, all those all those miracles, where
it's like, maybe it's, there'snot a ton of them, but just
feels like a theme when, youknow, someone suffering from
something, and Jesus is like,Your sins are forgiven. And
everyone's like, ah, that personcan't even walk. And it's like,
Oh, okay. So that, you know,that I have the authority is
Andy Withrow (56:48):
like the IRA, that, you know, has authority,
Vanessa Caruso (56:53):
which is not to, you know, diminish the Jesus
healed so many people. Sothere's, there's that too. Yeah.
But it is. It is interesting. Itreminds me of Jesus saying to
Mary, and Martha, you know, onlyone thing is needed back to that
first, Seek first the kingdomand only one thing is needed.
(57:18):
Yeah, and I do feel like I'vehad moments where I experienced
that, like, it's so hard todescribe, but just the gratitude
for existing at all, and usuallyrelated to something really hard
or scary. You know, those thosehardest moments in life, where
(57:39):
when you survive them, you havenew eyes for what's important
for a day or a week. And inthose things do transform us. So
it's very appealing to me, likeI'm very attracted to the last
part here, that the returndefies comparison, because I've
(58:02):
tasted it. Like what's mostimportant? I heard a story of
you probably know that a couplein Oak Bay, which is like a very
affluent neighborhood here inVictoria, who sold their house
for a ton of money, becausethat's what houses go for these
days. Have you heard this,millions of dollars, like little
houses, and they gave everythingoff after what they put in, I
(58:28):
don't know this language, youknow, when you buy a house, and
then everything you make, whenyou sell it, they gave that back
to the native to the indigenouspeople.
Andy Withrow (58:40):
That is radicals, putting your money where your
mouth
Vanessa Caruso (58:43):
is? And they don't know I kept what they had
put into it or whatever. I mightbe getting the story wrong. But
it made me think, you know,talking about the cares of the
world and the deceitfulness ofriches there is something
radical about doing things likethat. And it makes me think that
(59:03):
that couple does know somethingabout the joy the irrevocable
joy and purpose and meaning thatcomes from like your your root
system or your your identity andyour investment into what in
(59:25):
lifebut I love the I also love that.
That third obstacle aboutgetting choked out like that
just feels like there's so muchthere. We could do a whole
episode on that and we havebecause we always kind of talk
about the reality
Andy Withrow (59:46):
of it's just it's easy to talk about because it's
just it's constantly there.
Everything yeah,
Vanessa Caruso (59:55):
there's yeah so much compete. That's
Andy Withrow (59:56):
why That's why That's why there's again I like
the digital minimalism stuffthat we did with Naomi. It's
like all these things. It's, itcan be hard to talk about for a
couple reasons, because it's notthat, like all this technology,
that there's so much good stuffthat it really serves. So you
don't want to just say, Oh, howterrible times we live in, when
(01:00:19):
it also obviously brings so muchhelp and blessing, but it
definitely is a mixed bag. Andthat's what I think that's what
we're learning. And, and sotrying to figure out, okay, how
do we how do we manage that andbe more intentional about that,
that flow in our lives, I thinkjust the extended conversation
we just had about the rootsystem is kind of overflows into
(01:00:41):
that. It's not just about, it'snot just about saying like, hey,
I need to, if we're going towork on our root system, we're
also at the same time I've beenworking on our competition, or
time and energy, like both thosethings in our world has to
happen at the same time, I think
Vanessa Caruso (01:00:57):
Yeah. I don't know what to say. Yeah, it's
kind of blows my mind everytime. I've really liked the idea
of there being a lot of gospelsout there, you know, that it's,
it's actually not accurate tothink that there is just one
(01:01:18):
gospel, but that there are somany gospels out there. And I
also, it also reminds me of theone of the principles of non
violence. I don't know how muchMartin Luther King Jr. had to do
with that. But I think of themas connected to Martin Luther
King, Jr. And I've mentionedthis before, but that idea that
(01:01:40):
we, we all have conciliation inus, and we all have aggression
in us. And aggression is not theright word, but I forget the
right word, anyways, that wetend to put our conciliation
towards systems, because they'rehard to define in the heart to
see and we tend to put ouraggression or our resistance,
(01:02:00):
like a righteous kind of,against personalities. And he
says, what we really one of theprinciples of non violence is in
reversing that, that we have tobe intentional about putting our
conciliation towards thepersonalities and the people
that are the face of injustice.
And we have to direct our ourresistance, our anger, our
(01:02:22):
aggression towards this thepowers the systems, because we
tend to think like, oh, thesystem's benign, you know, it's
not, it doesn't have a face, itdoesn't have a personality, it
doesn't have a party. It's just,it just exists, it's just
neutral, and I should somehow bea good person within it. And
that is under estimating thereality of the systems that
(01:02:45):
choke us. Yeah. We shouldprobably wrap up,
Andy Withrow (01:02:54):
we should, I think the so there's the this kind of
the second of the two parts onthe sower and the seed. And I
think just an ending in thatspace of God's heart like that
it could have been otherwise,that God wanted to preserve our
dignity and our human freedom,despite all the costs, and the
(01:03:16):
long history it's caused,because if he was just going to
be straightforward and say, No,my way the highway, then this
would have been over a longtime. And not in our favor. Most
likely, yeah, at least at theprobably at the cost of our
human freedom. Yeah. But that,not only does he preserve that,
but he bears with it. And he, hecomes to like, wants to be with
(01:03:42):
us and win us over, through hiswords, and through his presence.
And so I think that's just whereI would want to kind of end our
image on this morning, orwhatever time you're listening
to this podcast. Great. Okay.
Well, we'll be working on ournew website. Stay tuned. I'll
get Vanessa to do a bunch ofblogs. Yeah. And then I'll try
(01:04:05):
to organize it. Sound fun? Yeah.
Love it. Okay. Well, thanks,Vanessa. Good to see you. You
too. And next week or next timenext week for us. We're gonna do
I
Vanessa Caruso (01:04:20):
think the purpose of parables Yeah, might
as well tricky one.
Andy Withrow (01:04:22):
I mean, we've already kind of talked about it
a bit here with the kind of thenuance of it, but it'll be it'll
be interesting to kind of talkabout. Okay, okay. All right,
everybody, have a good day wherewe and work on those root
systems with with freedom.
Exactly. Find some way and trustthat God is at work. Okay,
(01:04:46):
thanks, Vanessa.
Welcome to the bear with me podcast where we
aim to integrate belief andpractice in the Christian life
Hey, Vanessa, Hi, Andy.
Andy Withrow (00:20):
How you doing?
Great. You back? Yeah, it's it'sbeen. I don't know how long it's
been for everybody else outthere. But it's been like, three
weeks or a month. Yeah. Yeah,definitely. You know, things
going on. Yeah. It's hard tofind time to get into bear with
me studios, just where we areright now. And we're going to do
part two of the sower in theseed, also known as parable of
(00:41):
the sewers, or sorry, parable,the court types of soil he
right, or Parable of the Sower,everyone, like I say, Fine, all
those are great. But just torecap a little bit from last
time. So last time, we talked,we kind of big picture and now
we're going to kind of zero inon the actual four types of soil
(01:02):
kind of the progression that theparables take, or this parable
takes. And, and last time, wetalked about this idea that God,
maybe God is more of a talker,than we tend to think he is
chatting a lot of our Yeah, alot of our human experiences,
can can often feel quiet orabsent. But the sower and maybe
the Bible presents a differentpicture of God as one who likes
(01:24):
to talk a lot. And I don't knowif we don't think we tease this
part out last time. But I hadbeen thinking that God does not
like to do fireworks so much ashe likes to talk. And maybe
argument propensity is to wantmore of the fireworks display.
(01:45):
Nice. Meaning like the signs inthe wonders that obviously hit
you over the head stuff. Yeah.
And I was thinking that maybethat we liked that, because it
takes less energy to watch afireworks display than it does
to listen to somebody. Talk andtry to understand them. Yeah,
(02:05):
right. Yeah, it's a littleharder. It takes more energy.
Yeah. Anyway. So that was one,because remember, the sower sows
the seed everywhere, like justreckless with the siege, selling
it in, not very good places,having strategic expect things
to crop up. Clearly not worriedabout limited resources, in
terms of the seed, right? Got totalk her. Second, we talked
(02:28):
about God's word being hidden,but at work. So not just God
isn't just at work in ways thatwe get to see but often most at
work in ways we don't get tosee. So Jesus says in Luke 17,
the kingdom is coming in waysthat are not observable, which
(02:52):
is just sort of astraightforward way of saying
what I think he's saying here inthe parable of the sower. Man,
God's Kingdom is active and atwork right now, in ways that you
cannot see. I love that. Andthen finally, we wrapped up last
time with despite it beinghidden or not, at work behind
(03:16):
the scenes, God's word ispowerful and highly productive.
So it's hard, hard to see. Inseed form. impossible to miss?
At the when it when it comes up,impossible to miss. Yes, yes.
Wilderness. Yeah. Easy to missthan impossible to miss.
Vanessa Caruso (03:35):
Right? Tricky.
So
Andy Withrow (03:41):
this one, we want to focus on the four types of
soil and three of these types ofsoil, talk about obstacles to
this part, like for all of thepotency of God's word, there are
things that can resist it, yes.
Or keep it from being fruitful,which is kind of a radical
(04:01):
concept. It is, well, we'll getinto in a minute, because this
is God's word, and it's highlypotent and powerful. And so what
are, what are the things thatthat can be obstacles to this to
this active agent? And it kindof leads to this other question
(04:22):
or is, or maybe this otherquestion kind of helps set up
this parable. If this, if thisis God's words, like if Jesus is
teaching and preaching, in thegospels, God's words in Jesus is
God's man. God's Son, Messiah.
(04:44):
Why does it feel like in theGospel stories, it's not
working? Right, the disciplesconstantly don't get it. He's
meeting up with resistance. Orwe might ask an RD if we're
Christian or even if we're notlike, Okay, well if this is if
Christianity is true, if g Hesays is the real deal? And
legit, then why does itsometimes or often feel like
(05:06):
Christianity isn't working,especially in our little neck of
the world? neck of the woods orpart of the world? Why does it
seem like it's losing ground?
And maybe on its way out?
Because that's what it can feellike to a lot of people
sometimes. Yeah.
Vanessa Caruso (05:18):
Right.
Andy Withrow (05:21):
So, we already know part of the answer from
last time is that it God's wordsown does not look that
impressive. It's a small thing.
It's just a word. It's notfireworks. It's not big and
fancy. It's just a seed. And assoon as it's sewn or spoken, you
don't see it. It's gone. Yeah,you don't see it anymore. For
(05:46):
all the world, it looks likeit's not doing anything, or
how's that done anything? Idon't know, if it's working, is
it growing? What's it doing anyisn't doing anything, I can't
see it. So but then we're gonnaget into some other elements. So
it's not just that it'sinvisible. It's just that there
are things that we can do toactively resist God's Word in
(06:08):
our lives and in our world. Soinstead of God's Kingdom taking
root in and around us in ourlives, where peace and justice
and things about the kingdomthat we've talked about before
it God's presence to ustransformation, goodness, mercy,
where those things could takeroot and grow up, and transform
and sprout, come to fruition inour lives, and our
(06:31):
relationships, and our world andour city, all this great stuff.
Instead of that happening, theword gets taken away, or it
shrivels up or it gets chokedout. And we don't see any
transformation or fruit. What doyou think it's so far?
Vanessa Caruso (06:46):
Gosh, so many things. I mean, you're going to
talk about this, but why arethere so many obstacles? If this
is supposed to be such a potent?
Against all odds, fruitfulbeyond belief? Planting or
sowing, you know? So hopefully,you can answer that one.
Andy Withrow (07:10):
Yeah, hopefully we can. It's yeah, that's, that's,
uh, that is, I think, to reallyunderstand the, the significance
of that is pretty is a prettybig deal. Yeah,
Vanessa Caruso (07:24):
that's a big,
Andy Withrow (07:25):
that's a big question,
Vanessa Caruso (07:26):
existential question. It's kind of a way of
saying why do bad things happen?
Yeah. It's a version of that.
Andy Withrow (07:33):
So why does God allow it to happen? Because if
he's so powerful, His Word is sopower. Yeah. And it's such a
good thing? For sure. Yeah.
Yeah.
Vanessa Caruso (07:39):
Why can it get shoveled and choked? Or snatched
so easily? Yeah. There's that.
But I do love the hidden part,like, the reality that there's
something at work behind thescenes, I find that so hopeful
to trust that God is alwayscommunicating and working like
(08:03):
there's some kind of renewal.
happening. Behind the scenes,Howard Thurman talks about the
will to wholeness, that's kindof in the fabric of our bodies.
It's relevant during a time ofpandemic. He just, you know,
says in his book, however, manydecades ago, that it's actually
(08:25):
amazing how many diseases ourbodies fight off, and how few
infections we actually succumbto, by getting a cold, you know,
much less how many we actuallydie to write. So he just says,
it's remarkable that there'sthis will to wholeness in our
bodies, always at work, and thatthere's a will to wholeness in
(08:47):
the world, and he says, That'sexpressive of God's God's force
of love that's always in theworld. And so he kind of says,
wouldn't it be great if we couldlive each day, relaxed at our
nerve center, because we trustthis will to wholeness? And it
will, if we could do that itwould allow us to live with
(09:07):
quiet enthusiasm is his phrase,and I just love that quiet,
quiet enthusiasm, which to mebelies that idea that that God
is always at work. There'salways renewal behind the scenes
if we have ears to hear, andeyes to see if we need some good
news. That it's there. We don'thave to move countries to find
(09:28):
it or change jobs or somethinglike that. That's what I mean is
that the accessibility is withinour grasp. Yeah, but it might we
might not think that becauseit's not super obvious. Yeah.
Andy Withrow (09:43):
Yeah, not what we would expect. There's a counter
intuitiveness to it. But likewith the other parables like the
treasure hidden in the field, orthe Pearl of Great Price,
there's this. There's thisaccessibility to it. That is you
maybe unexpected in some ways,like it's there in the field and
(10:05):
he didn't, wasn't expecting tofind it just found treasure.
Vanessa Caruso (10:08):
That's I've never thought about that parable
like that. Just the discovery ofsomething beautiful right under
your nose or under your feetthat you didn't expect. That
sounds like the the journey ofour lives is kind of discovering
Yeah.
Andy Withrow (10:23):
And that the we'll get to this in this. When we get
to that parallel with the theone right next with appropriate
price goes the other directionslike keep the merchant was
searching for he knew what he'slooking for. And then he found
it. So it's like Jesus put thesetwo back to back on purpose,
like the treasure the king ofsomething that you might not be
looking for. And you can stumbleover it and unexpectedly find
(10:45):
this great treasure. Or it'salso like this merchant who was
like he knew he knew find pearlswhen he found it. It's like, oh,
yeah, that's the one. Oh,
Vanessa Caruso (10:55):
I like that.
Both of those are there next toeach other? I can't wait to get
to that one.
Andy Withrow (10:59):
I know. We're getting ahead of ourselves. So
yeah, so let's let's jump intothis then. So this is Matthew
13. He gives the parable of thesower. He talks about why
parables then he comes back tothe parables or in verse 18. He
explains it. When anyone hearsthe word of the kingdom and does
not understand it, the evil onecomes and snatches away what has
(11:20):
been sown in his heart is wassown along the path. So it's the
first sowing, it's on the path.
And the first obstacle isunderstanding when anyone does
not understand it. So thispresents a little problem for
us, because it just seems so notlike God or Jesus. You're like,
(11:40):
sorry, you're too stupid. Youdon't get it. You don't get it.
You know, your IQ isn't highenough.
Vanessa Caruso (11:49):
I don't like that one. You don't? Yeah, you
don't like that? No, you don'tunderstand it.
Andy Withrow (11:55):
Yeah, so it doesn't sound right. And it
isn't. So Jesus, let's say one,two says to enter the kingdom,
you must become like a child.
Yeah.
Vanessa Caruso (12:07):
Right, and the foolishness of God.
Andy Withrow (12:11):
So what's going on? One way to understand this
is to know that that knowledgeand understanding in the
biblical setting has to do withpersonal knowledge, like an
experiential knowledge of, of,of something, or someone. So
Isaiah, who's often in thebackground of the Gospels, he's
in the background here, he'sjust been quoted in the previous
(12:33):
paragraph. So he's in thebackground of the stories. And
he, he uses the same term in theSeptuagint, versus a Greek
version of the Old Testament,the same term for understand and
what he meant by it. So here'ssomething from the first chapter
of his Isaiah, he says this, Theox knows its owner, and the
(12:54):
donkey, its masters crib. ButIsrael has not known me. And the
people have not understood me.
So he's this, this relationalknowledge sort of dimension to
what's happening here. isunderstood in Isaiah one here is
paralleled with, with known,which here means personal
knowledge, not intellectualunderstanding. So it's kind of
(13:15):
like our relationships. Yeah.
Don't you know me, Vanessa? Yes.
I thought you knew me. Right.
Right. That kind of you don'tunderstand. stand
Vanessa Caruso (13:25):
me. Yeah. Not like you don't intellectually
follow me. Yeah. Yes. But you'renot grasping with what you know
of me. You're not grasping.
Andy Withrow (13:35):
It's not because we're too dumb, is because maybe
we're not invested in therelationship. Right, or we don't
want to hear it. We've got someinternal resistance to
acknowledging what what theother person is about or what
they're saying. There's internalresistance at work. And I think
this fits this passage, becausethat's literally what Jesus was
(13:59):
just talking about in theprevious paragraph, which we
haven't gotten to yet. We'll tryto get to that with with one of
these episodes on the purpose ofparables where Jesus talks about
why he's speaking in parables.
But this is the this is thesetting. There's internal
resistance to what's to who thisperson is and what's being said.
So this is the seed that fell onthe hard path. This is the Word
(14:20):
of God that falls on a hardenedor resistant part, oh, man, he
doesn't want to hear it. orparticipate in fast forward to
Isaiah seven from Isaiah one,where God is warning the king of
Israel at that time not to fearthe nations but to rather trust
God. So he's talking about theseother nations. The head of
(14:42):
Ephrem is Samaria. The head ofSamaria is the son of
vermillion. So he's talkingabout the country, the city and
in the king, if you do notbelieve, neither shall you
understand. So profit ispairing, understanding with
belief or trusting loyalty? Ifyou don't trust me, you're not
(15:04):
going to understand me.
Vanessa Caruso (15:08):
Trust is a good replacement for understand in
that original part of theparable, I feel like then
Andy Withrow (15:16):
yeah, like, as trusting as a prerequisite to
comprehending, understanding?
Yeah. Right. If we don't we havethese in our relationships, we
don't trust one another. Yeah,then it's hard. It can be hard
to understand. Yeah, to wrap ourminds around it. Where someone
else is coming from why they'redoing the things they're doing.
Vanessa Caruso (15:39):
So do you I relate with this, like, I know,
this is true about me internal,the idea of of being resistant
to something or, like kind of ahardness to my demeanor, or
something like that inrelationships. But can you think
(16:00):
of what this looks like? Likewhat what does it look like? For
Andy? When times when you'relike, on that hard path? If
that's the right way to eveninterpret the parable?
Andy Withrow (16:13):
Like in personal relationships? Yeah. Yeah, but I
do know this, I mean, that. Somy experience, and I don't know
if I can think of a specificone. But in general is when I
work, like, when there's maybestrain in a relationship, or if
something isn't working outbecause of behaviors, or I just
(16:37):
don't, I'm not on the same pagewith this person. I know that
going back to the roots of,okay, if I care about this
person I want to try tounderstand in that usually moves
me towards work, becausesometimes they just don't want
to do the work of understandingor it's you can think of I mean,
(17:00):
a great example, for a lot of usis political differences. Like
we have our political leanings,and we have a hard time
understanding someone who's on adifferent political divide. But
if there's somebody we careabout, then you start to Okay.
Can I see it from theirperspective? Yeah. But it's
because of the caring part.
Right, and the investment in arelationship part. If I don't
(17:25):
force myself to go in thatdirection, then I'm not going to
do the work of, okay, maybe Ineed Can I read with a bit more
charity? Or can I do a littlebit more work to try to
understand where they're comingfrom?
Vanessa Caruso (17:38):
Yeah, that's a great example.
Andy Withrow (17:43):
Yeah. So So I say, pairs, this understanding with
this trusting loyalty? Yeah.
overlapping with that personaltype of knowledge that we're
talking about? Yeah. But it addsthis dimension of commitment,
right, I'm committed to thisperson, therefore, I work harder
to understand. Or if I knowthem, well, if I'm committed to
(18:05):
them in a way, where I've gottento know them, well, then it's it
becomes easier for me, oh, Iunders. I see why she's seeing
it this way. Or he's sayingthose sorts of things.
Vanessa Caruso (18:16):
Yeah. Right.
Andy Withrow (18:21):
So Jesus is talked about in the previous paragraph
that we haven't gotten to yet,because it's the purpose of
parables. He's told them thatyou are His disciples, he's just
talking to His disciples there.
So he goes away from the crowds,they say, Why are you speaking
in parables? And he says,basically, you are all insiders.
You're with me? You know, me,you're learning to trust me
that's worth quite a lot,actually, more than you think
(18:42):
probably. Because without that,believing trust, it's actually
impossible to comprehend whatI'm talking about. It's
absolutely impossible tocomprehend the kingdom of God.
Maybe because it's so different.
Yeah. So it's socounterintuitive to the way that
our world works. That that wouldtake a lot of trust. To see
(19:07):
things so differently. I thinkthere's gotta be something like
that going on. Yeah. And thesepassages. And the Word of God
cannot grow in you, it can'teven penetrate the hardness of
your heart. That's what'samazing, though, it gets back to
what we're kind of talkingabout. For God's word is so
powerful. Like we're justgetting to the biblical
(19:29):
worldview here. Genesis one,God's word responsible for all
of creation, literallyeverything we see, and touch and
feel and know. Right? Lightland, heavens, earth stars, sun,
moon, fish, animals, humans, allbut by the power of God's Word.
(19:49):
So in the Bible says, By God'sword, he raises up and opposes
kingdoms
Vanessa Caruso (19:55):
is the same sewing Word,
Andy Withrow (19:58):
Word will not return empty but will will
accomplish its work and Isaiahis like you're not finding
something more powerful in thebiblical worldview than the Word
of God what He says happens
Vanessa Caruso (20:12):
except here where it's very precarious are
very susceptible to
Andy Withrow (20:19):
yes obstacles well I mean even in this whole
parable the words ultimatelygoing to succeed with this
ridiculous return on investmentbut yet to your point, God
invested the human heart thatseat of our will and our loyalty
don't think emotions that wasthe kidneys in the, in the, in
their worldview, heart was willand loyalty okay. Yeah, belief
(20:45):
in loyalty and intellect aswell. So he got invested the
human heart with such dignityand power that he allowed it to
not be overwritten by his wordthat it can resist and even the
power of God's word we'reallowed to resist it
(21:14):
God has given it the power toresist it if we choose radical I
think that's just an importantpoint because it does get back
to you why so much was why somuch evil in the world? Why is
there so much dissidents? Andwhy does God allow it? He's
(21:34):
whether you agree with him ornot. He's invested the human
heart with with a great withthat ability to resist like that
was important to him. And youstart thinking of well, what's
the alternative? Well, then youstart to lose some things, don't
you in terms of your humandignity and freedom? Yeah, that
time God feel that Godprioritized, I'm going to
(21:57):
preserve that. And we're reallygoing to let them choose even
though it's going to cost a lotit's gonna be super painful and
hard. I'm not going to game thisfrom the start. In other words,
just say, well, I'll justoverride I'll just press the
override button if I don't likehow things are going in that
isn't that nuts? Yeah, it is. Sokind of gives you a scary sense
(22:21):
of our own our own power in thatsense to resist such goodness
and beauty and kingdom stuff.
Yeah. He wants our trust andloyalty and he's not going to
cheat to get it he's put thatlimit on his own power in this
(22:41):
in this scenario. Because youthink well, God can do anything
why does he just you know, yeah,x y Zed. You know? I don't know.
It's like well, but if he's he'she wants to preserve this thing
over here and give us trueautonomy in that sense then he's
got to do it a different way hecan't just strong arm us into
(23:02):
the kingdom
Vanessa Caruso (23:04):
yeah
Andy Withrow (23:08):
Wow doesn't want to fill his kingdom with people
who are like I don't really wantto be here so this is the word
that falls on us when we resistwhen we refuse to come to Jesus
interesting loyalty. We fail toknow Him in His saving power and
understand Him in His teachingon God's good kingdom. That's it
(23:31):
that's what I wanted to sayabout that first one.
Vanessa Caruso (23:35):
That's all I think about I kind of always
pictured the with the snatching.
I always pictured like a crow.
Andy Withrow (23:45):
Yeah, you're right. And we didn't really talk
about that
Vanessa Caruso (23:47):
though. Does it have a burden? Oh, no wonder
Andy Withrow (23:51):
does the evil one comes and snatches away what has
been sown in his heart?
Vanessa Caruso (23:57):
Yeah, it feels like it feels pretty exposed,
just like my connotations withyou know, this soil or this
place that this seed is sown.
That it's some
Andy Withrow (24:09):
Yeah, if it's not received it will be taken from
you. Yeah.
Vanessa Caruso (24:14):
And now I'm hearing that consent that you're
saying God prioritize says likeour capacity to consent or
resist. So there's this likemechanism of consenting that
didn't happen between the soiland this seed. And so there it
(24:36):
was left exposed to beingsnatched. So the question, one
of the questions would be, whatdoes it look like to receive or
consent even if we're not thereyet? Like even if we do feel
resistance, or confusion orsomething It made me think that
(25:01):
we've talked about this prayerbefore, but I want to want
prayer is such a great option.
When we're not there yet, youknow, yeah, like, I want to want
to trust you in this lifedecision coming up. But I'm
pretty scared because I feellike I'm gonna be asked to do
something I don't want to do orwhatever. The profession there
(25:22):
is,
Andy Withrow (25:24):
right? And if yes, but I mean, the whole Bible just
puts such a priority on ourhumility. Right? Yeah. Because
it's that's kind of overlap withthat posture of our of our
heart.
Vanessa Caruso (25:40):
Yeah. I feel like we go on to the next one,
because more might come aboutthis one kind of in, in
relationship with the otherones.
Andy Withrow (25:52):
Yes, that's good.
So that's the first one, it wasthe seat on the path. Resistance
to God's words. The second onehas to do with with the root
system. So the stuff that'shappening underground. So think
of roots as conduits of waterand nutrients. The stronger the
(26:17):
roots, the stronger the plant.
Jesus warns next that even thosewho do receive the word that is
the trust and believe they canstill struggle if they do not
have roots within themselves. Inother words, it appears that
God's word can be received andnot kept. Soon as things get
(26:41):
hard because of the word,because of what was said, or
what was sown. That personwithers up where they fall away.
So this often gets translatedflips, translated, tribulation,
the Greek word is flips. Thismeans crushing pressure is a
(27:03):
better word than tribulation,yeah, crushing pressure, it's a
lot easier to imagine. It's notjust like what we might think of
if you've heard of beingpersecuted for your faith. Yeah,
that's probably definitely partof it. But it's a lot bigger and
broader than that. It's thepressure that comes when two
opposing kingdoms collide. Sothink about the goodness of
(27:25):
God's kingdom, and coming in itsvalues and what it's about
coming into collision with thekingdom, that of this world that
were a part of our, our culturalmoment. And so I would argue
that gets us here in NorthAmerica, as sure as it gets
anybody in the world might lookvery different. Feel it very
(27:47):
differently. But there is a costto your trusting obedience to
Jesus. We live in a world in akingdom that is definitely
hostile and at odds with thekingdom of God on some
significant points. So if that'strue, then we need something
that sustains us that feeds usthat strengthens us, in the
(28:11):
midst of this collision, thiscrushing pressure. So these
roots that conduits of of lifeand nutrients, and life
sustaining water, it reminds meof John 15, where Jesus uses
another image for this similaridea, I am the vine, he says,
and you are the branches Remainin me and you will bear much
fruit. So I think we're meant tosee these roots as habits of
(28:35):
devotion. means by which weremain IN JESUS, how do we stay
connected to this source oflife. Paul says in First
Timothy, the love of money isthe root of all kinds of evil or
a root of all kinds of evil. Soyou kind of get this thing that
helps the negative image but ithelps with this idea of why our
(28:58):
roots in that image, their theirlove or devotion to one thing.
That's the root of all kinds ofother things. If you are loving
and devoted towards one thingthat serves as a as a input that
can lead to all sorts of otherfruit, whether it's good fruit
or bad fruit. So if the rootspeaks of a devotion to God in
(29:25):
Jesus, it leads to all sorts offruit. We've seen this parable,
but the roots must remainstrong, or the crushing pressure
of climbing kingman's will betoo much for us, overwhelm us,
one of us feel that. So we canthink of the habits of Christian
devotion, community and worship.
Prayer, whether it's alone orwith others, regular reading and
(29:47):
study of God's words written tous in the Bible, meditation
reflection on on the Bible orlistening for God's voice in our
lives. We've talked about A lotof accountability and mutual
encouragement and Christiancommunity. Just to name a very
few. There's tons of them. Yeah.
(30:08):
Right. And they can lookdifferent. So these practices
lay down roots that connect usto the source of life, and
sustainability in the midst ofthe crushing pressure that we
find ourselves in. So, this isone way to think about
overcoming, if we think aboutthese in terms of obstacles,
okay, there's humility andtrust, there's habits of
(30:31):
devotion, how do I make sureI'm, I'm plugged into or
connected in these ways, to thisto this source of life to Jesus.
Knowing that, if we can overcomethese obstacles, then seeds just
(30:52):
grow. So it's not like we haveto work hard at the growing of
the thing. We just have to findthe practices and the positions
and the postures, and maybe onepart imagination, of sting of
just staying connected at theroots, which I think is an
easier way for me to think aboutit. Yeah. Instead of going to
(31:15):
the gym to workout. Which Idon't do Yeah. It's, it's a,
it's a putting myself in aposition of space. I mean,
there's some overlap with that,because that is a habit. And it
is this is building a certainkind of muscle. Yeah, but it's
not a it's not I need to makethe fruit grow. It's like, yeah,
(31:40):
will take care of itself. If youjust, if you just work these
habits, simple habits, I think,into our daily or weekly lives,
or monthly lives, or whatever,whatever the case may be.
Vanessa Caruso (31:53):
Yeah, that's,
Andy Withrow (31:54):
I know, you've got some thoughts on
Vanessa Caruso (31:55):
Oh, yeah, I do.
Where do I start? When youtalked about, you know, this
soil. So the previous soil iskind of about receiving
consenting to accepting like,there's a hardness and it
doesn't actually unfold theseed. And then it can get
snatched up. And then you saidabout this one, it's possible to
(32:16):
receive it, but not to keep it.
And that made me think of theidea of observance. You know, in
Deuteronomy, when it talks aboutthe Shamal, like Love the Lord
your God with all your heart,soul, mind and strength, love
your neighbor as yourself, andtalk about these things when you
walk on the road. And when youlie down, it uses the word
(32:40):
observe somewhere in there, youknow, observe these things,
which reminds me of a holiday,how we observe holidays. So the
idea of keeping something andobserving something just reminds
me of that way of being human,where we need the set apart,
times within the year, withinthe week within the day, where
(33:05):
we observe what it is that weascribe to, or believe or love.
And it's not like a once anddone thing, you don't want time
in your life, you haveChristmas, and that and then
you're good to go. You know,it's like a regular part of our
lives to observe Christmas. Sothat's one way for me to think
(33:26):
about the roots. And thistension between the effort
required to make fruit growversus the effort required to
create space, so that we don'tfill up our lives with the
things that the kingdom of theworld, you know, fills up our
lives with. Stephen, my husbandis reading a book by his
(33:50):
favorite author Johann Hari,called something about focus,
like losing focus or findingfocus or, but Johann Hari is a
journalist and has written thesereally unique. Or he talks about
things that are very common,like when the first one is about
addiction. Second book was aboutdepression, and he sees them
(34:11):
from these really unique vantagepoints. So this one is about our
inability to stay focused. Andthe context switching and that
happens so much. So this is athis is not talking about, like
how to be a Christian, but justfrom the episode I listened to
describing the book, he talksabout, you know, the need for
(34:34):
mind wandering spaces in ourlives, like walks where our mind
wanders, instead of having allthe input that we have this is
reminded me of our Cal NewportNaomie idea with technology, how
it things just are coming intous so often, like we're working
(34:56):
on something and then we get atext and we just think like I'm
gonna check the text, no bigdeal. Oh, you know, I might need
to know something. But the costof check, checking that text,
and returning to our focus is,is a lot bigger than we think it
is. And so his idea of thesemind wandering spaces preserving
them, that reminds me a lot ofthe idea of discipleship or
(35:19):
spiritual formation. It, itdoesn't seem like a lot of
effort. It's a different kind ofeffort. It is effort to preserve
for him to preserve space in hismonth, and in his week to have
these mind wandering walks whereintegration happens, inspiration
happens, problem solvinghappens. That's what it's like
(35:40):
in spiritual formation. It's theeffort to create space. Yeah,
where that kind of integration,internalization can happen. So
we don't do that, that big worklike the heavy lifting, but we
can. Sometimes we stumble uponit in the field, and it just
happens to us and we weren'ttrying at all. But overall, the
(36:03):
main invitation I feel like tous as humans is are you going to
create some
Andy Withrow (36:08):
space? Yeah, it's the it's the Sabbath observance.
Yeah. I mean, that was one dayand seven. But the principle is
like, creating these protectingthese spaces. So you like a bird
sanctuary or wildlife urge, youknow, refuge or something where
these things are not allowed.
You can't hunt here. Yeah, don'tbring your guns here. This is a
safe place to kind of preserve.
(36:29):
Yeah, wildness. And, and I thinkwe have the ability to do the
same thing with our day or ourweek, or just fine. Okay, what's
Where's where do I get called myhalf hour walk, and just without
my phone or things that willtend to distract me? And just
(36:49):
think, or just meditate andreflect on one truth about who
God is, and, and, and who he is,in my life, what he's doing, or
whatever the thing is, yeah. Andthese that I think part of the
trick of these things is they'renot, they're not measured,
they're not super measurable inand of themselves. Yeah, they're
(37:10):
not, they're not the fruit. Andwe tend to feel good about our
fruit. And I think we, I thinkone of the mistakes that we
make, or a common mistake thatwe can make in our spiritual
lives or in our lives, don'tforget, I said, the word
(37:31):
spiritual in our lives is thatwe try to grow upside down
trees, were the we're trying toget our sense of worth identity
from our fruit. We're trying touse our fruit as our source of
who we are, but fruit is forothers. And when we mess that
(37:52):
up, then it's like we're tryingto force fruit to grow. We're
trying to like really sell ourfruit to ourselves as much as
anybody else. Say, I'm goodbecause of this fruit. Whereas
the biblical image is, fromPsalm one and all over the place
is, and here in Matthew 13. Isthe roots are hidden
underground. But those is that'sour source. And they're not very
(38:15):
measurable. They're not thingsthat people see. Yeah. But
that's where we get ouridentity. And that's where we,
that's what tells us who we are,and whether our fruit turns out
good or not. And so the more wecan learn to forget about the
fruit, don't care about thefruit. You don't even let your
(38:38):
left don't know what your righthand is doing since Jesus and
when you're doing your gooddeeds. Yeah, like, don't even
care about it. Yeah. Focus,invest in the roots. That's
where your work is. Yeah. Andit's for because this is my life
for a preacher that is spendingtime where nobody sees you,
(39:00):
doing the study, thepreparation, getting to go
deeper into the Bible, becausethat's what part of what your
job is what you have time for.
But no one measures that I'm notfilling out any time sheets to
say I did this this week, andshowing it off to people. It's
just hidden somewhere, and itwill, it will come out or not
(39:21):
over the course of time, but youcan. But that's true of all our
lives, isn't it to be a preacheror a pastor, for that to be true
in terms of your ownfruitfulness in the lives of
your family, or your friends oryour co workers or anyone you
come into contact with will whatis the nature of the fruit that
you will have on display? Yeah.
(39:43):
And where are you getting?
What's your source to get thatfruit because that's gonna make
all the difference? Yeah. That'sa difficult shift for us. I
think there is not getting ourworth and identity and
enoughness from What fruit we'reoffering, it's hidden, it's
deeper underground. In thisparable, it's what's happening
(40:04):
underneath. And where am I?
Where am I getting my lifesource from?
Vanessa Caruso (40:11):
There is something freeing about it, too.
It's difficult because it'sreally counter intuitive.
Andy Withrow (40:16):
Difficult because it's not measure, but it's also
freeing because it's notmeasured. Right? It reminds me
of this just for me, Yeah, yoursjust be in this God moment, or
this, this personal thing? Yeah.
Vanessa Caruso (40:29):
It also reminds me of people, friends who have a
big presence on social media fortheir work, you know, or their,
whatever they do. And just theweight they talk about of, of
needing to always be looking forcontent. You know, they're in
their, at their children's livesand the craft they did in the
walk on the Sabbath. It's kindof hard, it seems like to
(40:52):
differentiate between, am Idoing this because of the
content it will give me? Andwhat I'll be able to post
because of it, or am I doing itkind of as an end in itself?
Because, you know, I rememberJosh talking about that on
sabbatical, like takingpictures, gorgeous pictures in
the Yukon, not to use them in asermon or anything just for his
(41:16):
life and his enjoyment, and hissense of vocation as a person.
So there's it that sounds like acrushing weight, when there is a
lot of confusion there betweenthe fruit like the content and
motivation, or however you saythat. And it reminds me of the
(41:36):
last episode on the sower. Andone takeaway for me was, was
like, I could make so many moremistakes. Something about this
makes me think, there, it's okayto make mistakes. Like, the
consequences don't feel it, thestakes don't feel as high. And
(41:57):
when we're talking about it likethis, that sounds fraying too,
Andy Withrow (42:01):
when you're trying to curate your fruit, for
example, you can't afford tohave one that's shriveled or
when you're talking about rootsystems. They're gnarled they're
all over the place. It doesn'tmatter what they look like,
yeah. How far down? Can we go?
How far out? Can we go? Yeah.
And just take in what is onoffer. And what's on offer is
(42:26):
nutrient rich, soil witheverything you need, and more
like, the image is abundance allthrough the Bible, God has more
than enough for us if we'rewilling to invest in this part.
Right? This part that doesn'tget measured, not just not just
(42:46):
the measuring that what do otherpeople think about me? Oh,
that's a big one, especially forus nines, but, but also just
what am I? What am I doing withmy life? What am I producing,
even even for me, or for myfamily, or that sort of thing?
It's like, those are reallygood, right things and good
things to be concerned about.
But the principle remains, ifwe're not investing in the root
system, it doesn't matter. Italmost doesn't matter how hard
(43:09):
we're working on some level.
It's, it's you're not you'regonna it's gonna be a poverty
mentality. Like I can't getenough can't do enough.
Vanessa Caruso (43:19):
It's rearranging deck chairs on the Titanic. No,
Andy Withrow (43:21):
it's It's back to he has his back to Jesus saying,
seek this thing. First, seekthose clothes, food shut, you
know, all those things areimportant. But if you seek this
thing, first kingdom of Godfirst. All these things will be
added to you as well. That was aradical promise that I can't
(43:45):
make to you. Yeah. But I'mthankful that I didn't. Yes,
that's what that's what Jesus issaying is on offer here. I know
it's risky. And but at somepoint, I say, Okay, God, I'm
gonna Okay. Okay. I'm gonnatrust you with that. And I'm
gonna start to build in spacesto work on my root system.
Vanessa Caruso (44:08):
Good, Andy.
Okay, one idea before we move onto the next one. This is the
last obstacle coming up. So whenI was thinking about what does
it mean to observe? To keep theword or observe it like a
holiday, it reminded me that Igo in and out of these seasons
of trying centering prayer, youknow, which is like, a way of
(44:31):
praying silently. So not comingup with any words or anything.
But setting a timer for 20minutes and saying, I'm just
going to be here. I'm not goingto try to focus on the fruit or
if I feel good from this, or ifI have good thoughts during this
or if I stay blank during this.
(44:53):
The idea is not to stay blank.
So I've been doing this foryears and there's just different
seasons of how In a differentkind of metaphor for what that's
like, because it, I just know,it's good for me. So there's
something about it that is verygood for me. Probably my
perfectionism because it's avery like, there's nothing to
do. So last week that I've beendoing it, what's come to mind,
(45:15):
as I'm sitting there and justreturning, like, every time I
realize I'm off wandering,thinking about something I need
to do or worried aboutsomething, or rehashing a
conversation in my head, and Ijust come back to, alright, I'm
just sitting in God's presence.
What's come up for me isthinking, what I'm doing here
(45:37):
silently, with my eyes closedfacing the window facing the
sun, is I'm just letting Godhave a little bit of airtime.
Because the rest of my day, Goddoesn't really get a word in
edgewise, in a way, I don'tactually believe that. But as
soon as I get into my to do listand on email, and working on
(45:58):
stuff, and having a kid andbeing with neighbors, it feels
like this is this is the littlemoment in my day, where I'm
going to say, I do actuallybelieve that the reality of God
is the most real thing ever.
It's not gonna seem like that.
For if an alien was here, youknow, they would think like,
What are you talking about youremails very real, it's like
(46:20):
calling to your texts are veryreal, you need to eat, it's very
real, what you're gonna do withyour life is very real. But that
20 minutes of just returningsilently, my attention and
saying, I'll give you someairtime like that this is this
20 minutes is for the reality ofGod, to observe it. I can't do
(46:42):
anything, but just observe itand hope that that affects the
rest of my day. But that's myone example. Yeah,
Andy Withrow (46:49):
that's good example. I think we're working
on new website that bear withme, yeah, we're going out for a
while. But I would like us toget to a point where, where we
get that all up and running. Andbecause I think examples are
helpful or in and I just imaginepeople could feel overwhelmed,
(47:11):
like, well, I don't know whereyou guys get this time. It's
like, Well, really, you couldjust start with 15 minutes, if
you could find 15 minutes, or 30minutes in a week. What would
you do with like, I imagined ofputting up a blog post like that
mostly written by you? Where,where you said, if you have 15
(47:32):
minutes a week, here's a couplethings you could try. Yeah, half
an hour and a week. Yeah, if youhave 15 minutes a day, here's
some things you could do if youhad five minutes a day or
something like that an hour youknow, it's like here's some
things is not you know, I thinkthat could be that could be
really useful thing. I love thatbecause sometimes I just need a
(47:52):
step like just get me startedYeah, some training wheels we
have so give me a step by stepand then and then I can kind of
learn what we're you know how itworks and all that sort of
thing. So stay tuned stay soundmaybe that'll get us a actually
making on this some back to thatokay. last obstacle ready? Are
we ready? So we've had theresistance the personal
(48:18):
allegiance insiders, outsiderslike are you with Jesus or not?
Because that does make adifference. And and, you know,
the Bible counts that countshumility in our favor. So even
those who like I don't want tooverstate it because there's in
the Bible is people who don'tknow Jesus, but they have the
(48:38):
right posture, and that makesall the difference. So don't
just think people who go tochurch who don't go to church I
don't think it's quite likethat. Yeah, I don't think that's
what's what's happening here.
But there is something aboutabout stumbling upon this
treasure and holding on to it inin in getting the wisdom and
insight from it. Okay, last onecompeting allegiances. This
(48:59):
third, I said first oneresistance. Second one keeping
system system working on yourroot system, third, one,
competing allegiances.
(49:22):
A strong temptation forcompeting allegiances. God's
word can be heard. It can bereceived, and then it can get
choked out. So, Jesus saysspecifically the cares of this
world and the deceitfulness ofriches like weeds that choke out
(49:46):
the plant. These are competitorsfor our allegiance. Tell me
about it. There are all sorts ofgospels out there. Lots of good
news.
Vanessa Caruso (49:57):
I like that idea.
Andy Withrow (49:58):
Lots of good news.
As you said, We're constan Weare being bombarded with stuff.
Yeah, with messages how thisthing's gonna change your life
that thing's gonna change yourskin. This thing's gonna change
your everything, whatever.
Everything constantlyadvertising and marketing for
our very souls attention. Yes,it's spiritual. Yeah. It's
(50:21):
spiritual was super holes juston all those ads yeah that they
spent billions of dollars on orhowever much sounds dramatic but
that's I think that's the aim ofall good marketing and
advertising Yeah, battle foryour soul. How can we find the
good life? How can we putsalvation in a bottle or on a
screen or in an experience? Sowe're always doing that we're
(50:45):
all experts at envisioning thekind of life and lifestyle that
will be our ultimate meaningthat will really fulfill us.
Give us ultimate meaning andsignificance, tell us who we
are, and why we're good, whywe're enough, all that stuff.
And then there's the means toget that money's the popular
(51:06):
ones so popular that Jesusactually calls it out
specifically, with cares of theworld. More generic cares of the
world. And just like God's wordis everywhere, but hidden. All
the none of that impressive zoomform. The word of this world's
Kingdom is also everywhere, butit's a lot more sexy. In your
(51:30):
face. Great graphic designersfor that stuff. super
impressive. It's very alluring.
Yeah. And often superconvincing, especially when you
put it side by side with theseat of God's Word. So does God
need to hire a marketer? GraphicDesigner and Superbowl
commercial compete? put an ad inat the Superbowl. Right.
Vanessa Caruso (51:56):
Yeah, what would the ad say?
Andy Withrow (52:01):
Yeah, well, that's just I mean, it's just such a
it's just such a juxtaposition.
We're talking about these twothings side by side. Yeah, it
kind of goes back to thefireworks stuff, which were just
so much more. Just so mucheasier. Set of fireworks. Yeah,
to have a relationship with aperson. Yes. It just does feel
like God can't compete. Whichfeels funny to say but you know,
(52:28):
with with the way he's goingabout things with the note, my
word is enough. It's powerfulenough, it's that'll be all you
need. It'll change your life.
And because tied in with theword is the presence of it's the
presence of the king. Right? TheKingdom. Yeah. So. So that's the
that's the thing. That's why Ithink that's a big reason why
(52:51):
working on our root system is sohard as we just talked about,
it's just there's so muchcompetitors. Oh, yeah. For our
time and attention and ourenergy. And it's not even bad
things. No cares of this worldmoney. Those are really helpful,
practical thing. Yeah. That Idon't think Jesus hates. He's
just saying you got you. Thosewill choke out. Yeah, this thing
(53:14):
if you let them. Yeah, you can'tlet them. Let me just wrap up my
thing. Great. And then we'lltalk more. Okay. So the whole
point of this parable is thateven with all these obstacles,
the resistance, the the the noroots, the no root system, the
(53:36):
competitors, the competingallegiances, that despite all
that God's word wins. In theend, it has no rivals, if you're
just looking at not looking atthe individual level, like Andy
and venison house gods weredoing there. But look at the big
picture. Like for all the seedthat was lost in those first
three things, so you there'sthere's four outcomes, the
(53:56):
majority of the majority of themdon't work. So it looks more
like failure than success. Butthen the one outcome that does
work, it works so well, that itmore than like a save and close
it more than makes up for theloss of everything else. So
getting back to the sort of thesetting in Jesus life, which we
talked about last time. That'swhat it looks like. It's like
(54:20):
he's got his disciples andeveryone else is just like, even
his families you know, and thenhe's got his enemies and they're
plotting to kill them, you know,all this stuff. It's like, and
then it's gonna get worse beforeit gets better. So it really
looks like it's, it's, it's notworking. But you can see where
(54:41):
they're where the obstacles aretaken away. God's word just
explodes where roots are allowedto grow deep and the competition
has been weeded out. You get areturn. That's, like if you
think about it in financialterms of return, it's ridiculous
3000 6010 1000 rate of return,that's 100 fold is a 10,000%
(55:05):
rate of return. So if you boughtBitcoin five years ago, it would
only be at about a 5,000% rateof return for comparison, but
10,000 rate of return. This isthe fruit of God's Kingdom, the
space where God was present tous, is in his will is being
(55:27):
worked out in our lives, thispeace, this goodness, this
flourishing and growth and loveand joy and justice. And this
all comes back to God's desireto share with us that God is a
talkative person. And that's hisprimary way of being with us in
(55:48):
the world is communication.
Very, very relational, veryhuman and apparently divine way
of being with someone. Even inthe gospels, when Jesus says the
miracles, he's like, Ah, don'tworry about it. It's not the
main thing. Yes, signs towardsthe bigger thing that is hid the
stuff that's hidden. And heresists he resist sticking
(56:14):
around? When things are goingwell, with the miracles now it's
time to move on? Yeah. Itdoesn't like it doesn't does not
seem to like to do them thatmuch.
Vanessa Caruso (56:26):
Yeah. Yeah, all those all those miracles, where
it's like, maybe it's, there'snot a ton of them, but just
feels like a theme when, youknow, someone suffering from
something, and Jesus is like,Your sins are forgiven. And
everyone's like, ah, that personcan't even walk. And it's like,
Oh, okay. So that, you know,that I have the authority is
Andy Withrow (56:48):
like the IRA, that, you know, has authority,
Vanessa Caruso (56:53):
which is not to, you know, diminish the Jesus
healed so many people. Sothere's, there's that too. Yeah.
But it is. It is interesting. Itreminds me of Jesus saying to
Mary, and Martha, you know, onlyone thing is needed back to that
first, Seek first the kingdomand only one thing is needed.
(57:18):
Yeah, and I do feel like I'vehad moments where I experienced
that, like, it's so hard todescribe, but just the gratitude
for existing at all, and usuallyrelated to something really hard
or scary. You know, those thosehardest moments in life, where
(57:39):
when you survive them, you havenew eyes for what's important
for a day or a week. And inthose things do transform us. So
it's very appealing to me, likeI'm very attracted to the last
part here, that the returndefies comparison, because I've
(58:02):
tasted it. Like what's mostimportant? I heard a story of
you probably know that a couplein Oak Bay, which is like a very
affluent neighborhood here inVictoria, who sold their house
for a ton of money, becausethat's what houses go for these
days. Have you heard this,millions of dollars, like little
houses, and they gave everythingoff after what they put in, I
(58:28):
don't know this language, youknow, when you buy a house, and
then everything you make, whenyou sell it, they gave that back
to the native to the indigenouspeople.
Andy Withrow (58:40):
That is radicals, putting your money where your
mouth
Vanessa Caruso (58:43):
is? And they don't know I kept what they had
put into it or whatever. I mightbe getting the story wrong. But
it made me think, you know,talking about the cares of the
world and the deceitfulness ofriches there is something
radical about doing things likethat. And it makes me think that
(59:03):
that couple does know somethingabout the joy the irrevocable
joy and purpose and meaning thatcomes from like your your root
system or your your identity andyour investment into what in
(59:25):
lifebut I love the I also love that.
That third obstacle aboutgetting choked out like that
just feels like there's so muchthere. We could do a whole
episode on that and we havebecause we always kind of talk
about the reality
Andy Withrow (59:46):
of it's just it's easy to talk about because it's
just it's constantly there.
Everything yeah,
Vanessa Caruso (59:55):
there's yeah so much compete. That's
Andy Withrow (59:56):
why That's why That's why there's again I like
the digital minimalism stuffthat we did with Naomi. It's
like all these things. It's, itcan be hard to talk about for a
couple reasons, because it's notthat, like all this technology,
that there's so much good stuffthat it really serves. So you
don't want to just say, Oh, howterrible times we live in, when
(01:00:19):
it also obviously brings so muchhelp and blessing, but it
definitely is a mixed bag. Andthat's what I think that's what
we're learning. And, and sotrying to figure out, okay, how
do we how do we manage that andbe more intentional about that,
that flow in our lives, I thinkjust the extended conversation
we just had about the rootsystem is kind of overflows into
(01:00:41):
that. It's not just about, it'snot just about saying like, hey,
I need to, if we're going towork on our root system, we're
also at the same time I've beenworking on our competition, or
time and energy, like both thosethings in our world has to
happen at the same time, I think
Vanessa Caruso (01:00:57):
Yeah. I don't know what to say. Yeah, it's
kind of blows my mind everytime. I've really liked the idea
of there being a lot of gospelsout there, you know, that it's,
it's actually not accurate tothink that there is just one
(01:01:18):
gospel, but that there are somany gospels out there. And I
also, it also reminds me of theone of the principles of non
violence. I don't know how muchMartin Luther King Jr. had to do
with that. But I think of themas connected to Martin Luther
King, Jr. And I've mentionedthis before, but that idea that
(01:01:40):
we, we all have conciliation inus, and we all have aggression
in us. And aggression is not theright word, but I forget the
right word, anyways, that wetend to put our conciliation
towards systems, because they'rehard to define in the heart to
see and we tend to put ouraggression or our resistance,
(01:02:00):
like a righteous kind of,against personalities. And he
says, what we really one of theprinciples of non violence is in
reversing that, that we have tobe intentional about putting our
conciliation towards thepersonalities and the people
that are the face of injustice.
And we have to direct our ourresistance, our anger, our
(01:02:22):
aggression towards this thepowers the systems, because we
tend to think like, oh, thesystem's benign, you know, it's
not, it doesn't have a face, itdoesn't have a personality, it
doesn't have a party. It's just,it just exists, it's just
neutral, and I should somehow bea good person within it. And
that is under estimating thereality of the systems that
(01:02:45):
choke us. Yeah. We shouldprobably wrap up,
Andy Withrow (01:02:54):
we should, I think the so there's the this kind of
the second of the two parts onthe sower and the seed. And I
think just an ending in thatspace of God's heart like that
it could have been otherwise,that God wanted to preserve our
dignity and our human freedom,despite all the costs, and the
(01:03:16):
long history it's caused,because if he was just going to
be straightforward and say, No,my way the highway, then this
would have been over a longtime. And not in our favor. Most
likely, yeah, at least at theprobably at the cost of our
human freedom. Yeah. But that,not only does he preserve that,
but he bears with it. And he, hecomes to like, wants to be with
(01:03:42):
us and win us over, through hiswords, and through his presence.
And so I think that's just whereI would want to kind of end our
image on this morning, orwhatever time you're listening
to this podcast. Great. Okay.
Well, we'll be working on ournew website. Stay tuned. I'll
get Vanessa to do a bunch ofblogs. Yeah. And then I'll try
(01:04:05):
to organize it. Sound fun? Yeah.
Love it. Okay. Well, thanks,Vanessa. Good to see you. You
too. And next week or next timenext week for us. We're gonna do
I
Vanessa Caruso (01:04:20):
think the purpose of parables Yeah, might
as well tricky one.
Andy Withrow (01:04:22):
I mean, we've already kind of talked about it
a bit here with the kind of thenuance of it, but it'll be it'll
be interesting to kind of talkabout. Okay, okay. All right,
everybody, have a good day wherewe and work on those root
systems with with freedom.
Exactly. Find some way and trustthat God is at work. Okay,
(01:04:46):
thanks, Vanessa.
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