Intro to Spiritual Direction Part 1

What is Spiritual Direction?

What is a Spiritual Director?

What's the value? Should everyone do it?

What's the difference between Spiritual Direction and Counseling?

Vanessa tells all in this 1st part of a 2 part series.

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Episode Transcript

Vanessa Caruso (00:01):
Welcome to the bear with me podcast where we
aim to integrate belief andpractice in the Christian life.

Andy Withrow (00:18):
Hey, Vanessa, Hi, Andy. Good morning.

Vanessa Caruso (00:21):
Good morning.
How are you? I'm pretty good.
Good. I'm well, good. How areyou?

Andy Withrow (00:27):
Good. Weird. We've been taking turns. Because best
videos, I never agree onanything. And we fight about
everything. doesn't always comeout in the podcast, but we've
only usually resolved stuffbefore we record. But anyway, we
take turns

Vanessa Caruso (00:48):
with the topics, because then we can have so many
arguments. That's right.

Andy Withrow (00:52):
So everybody wins.
Yeah. So today is one ofVanessa's topics on spiritual
direction. Yes. Thank

Vanessa Caruso (00:59):
you for letting me do one on spiritual

Andy Withrow (01:01):
direction. You're welcome. It was I was debating
but decided go ahead and youhave a turn.

Vanessa Caruso (01:08):
I wanted to do one because I'm a spiritual
director. And whenever someonelike at school, pickup or you
know, settings where someone'slike, oh, and what do you do? I
kind of like freeze and I'mlike, I'm a spiritual director.
And they're like, Oh, what'sthat?

Andy Withrow (01:27):
And he's kind of like this creepy music in the
back totally.

Vanessa Caruso (01:32):
Most people, I think, think I'm a shaman. I
mean, this guy literally justsaid the other day, he was like,
Oh, so you're like a shaman?
Interesting. I was like, Oh, no.
How do you describe your

Andy Withrow (01:44):
some overlap there? Yeah,

Vanessa Caruso (01:45):
yeah. Oh, there's not much about shamans.
I don't either. But I thinkthere's some overlap. But so I
wanted to do this so that Icould practice talking about
what it is. And because I loveit, and I would love for more
people to go to spiritualdirection. But I think one of
the main problems is that theydon't actually know what it is

Andy Withrow (02:04):
or why they would go is what happens, what's
involved what they're gettinginto.

Vanessa Caruso (02:08):
Yeah, whether they need it, right, whether
it's worth it, because it's timeand money, like $10,000. Yeah, a
session. So it's steep, butworth it. Okay. So I'll just
tell you some things aboutspiritual direction. And then
Andy, just, you know, askquestions or piping anytime.
Great. So spiritual direction,is the biggest umbrella I can

(02:33):
think of, is to say that it's aspace to talk honestly about
your spiritual life. But it'stwo people, focusing on one
person, spiritual life, and byspiritual life, I don't just
mean the things we mightassociate with spirituality,
like prayer, meditation, studyof sacred texts, worship. Those

(03:01):
things can be part of theconversation, of course, but I
think of spirituality aseverything in our lives. You
know, everything can bespiritual, I think of
spirituality more as ourconnection to things to God, to
ourselves, to people to theearth, to our money to our
sexuality. And so the content ofspiritual direction is anything

(03:25):
that's coming up in your life,and how you're responding to
that. So far, so good.

Andy Withrow (03:32):
Yeah. Great. Yeah.
No, I'm on board so far.
Amazing. Good. Still with you?
Great.

Vanessa Caruso (03:37):
So far. Okay. So Eugene Peterson talks really
simply about spiritualdirection. So one of the things
he says is that when two peopleagree to give their full
attention to what God is doingin one of their lives, that
spiritual direction, so that's athat's a feature of spiritual
direction is that it isn't amutual conversation. It's more

(03:58):
like therapy in that way, whereyou go to receive the full
attention, listening, mirroringquestion asking of another
person. And its spiritualdirections based on the
assumptions. Peterson says thatGod is always doing something.
And each of our lives, there'salways a movement there. There's

(04:20):
always a grace there. There'salways an invitation to respond
or participate with thismovement of the Spirit in our
lives. And the second thing hesays is that responding isn't
sheer guesswork. You know, it'snot just this arbitrary,
personalized, like, I have tofigure this out on my own. There
is wisdom and there's ways ofdiscerning and responding that

(04:43):
we can access. And the thirdthing he says is that everyone
is unique. And so how we liveout our spirituality, our faith
is unique for everyone and youhave to discern how how a
response looks, depending onyour life. situation, your
personality, your stage. And sospiritual direction a large part

(05:05):
of it is that discernment workof, okay, what is going on in my
life? And how do I respond to itwith integrity? And that looks
different for everybody. Sospiritual direction is a space
to work that out.

Andy Withrow (05:20):
Yeah, that's great. Yeah, it's well, there's
a lot of things in there. Sothe, and we've talked about this
before the idea that discern thewas it? I can't remember his
name is Gordon

Vanessa Caruso (05:39):
Green or Thomas Smith.

Andy Withrow (05:43):
Gordon Smith.

Vanessa Caruso (05:43):
Yeah, the disarmament?

Andy Withrow (05:45):
Yeah. It is inside. It's a it's the, the,
the streams of tradition throughthrough Christian history of the
assumption. Born out from theBible itself, that God is active
and present in always speakingin some in some way that does

(06:06):
not shy. And I think just thatidea is always, always
fascinating to me, like God isinterested in communicating.
Yes. And just that merepossibility that potentiality
just gets me excited, like,Okay, well, then there must be
some way to hear God to listento God's voice in my life. And

(06:30):
in that there, it's not justguesswork and the idea that God
has given us the scriptures tobe able to this wisdom, yeah. To
be able to discern, this is whatthe kinds of things that God
says is what God sounds like.
Yes, sir. We've been talkingabout this with the, the 10

(06:50):
commandments. And the law isthat it's not like our laws
today, where everything iscodified. You've got a law for
everything. And if you don't, assoon as someone does something
crazy, they'll make one, right?
That wasn't law in the ancientworld, would we get the 10
commandments, we get thestipulations in Exodus and other
places. It's, it's actuallywisdom, it's legal wisdom. It's

(07:14):
not complete enough to be asystem of law. And they depended
on elders, and judges and kingsto be able to rule these very
specific things that didn't havespecific laws or rules around
them, like you didn't know whatto do. So you had to rely on
wisdom to be able to do thisbecause every situation was

(07:36):
unique. It was just what itreminds me of it just kind of
bridging the context a littlebit, that our religion or
spirituality is not a one sizefits all. Yeah, type of thing.
And so it requires God, I thinkit's a feature not a bug. God
made it that way. So that wewould be in relationship with

(07:58):
one another. Yeah, work. kind ofwork through things together.
Fascinating.

Vanessa Caruso (08:03):
Love it. Yeah, I love I've said this quote before
to, Rachel Held, Evans said, itswisdom is not about what is
true, but about when it's true.
So that application and adiscernment around the
particularities of our lives andour, the life in the world, our
lives as citizens, all of thatmatters in applying what is

(08:28):
true. Okay, so, Andy, when youhear the term spiritual
director, like if someone'slike, well, it was meeting with
my spiritual director, or youmeet someone in there like, Oh,
I'm a spiritual director, whatare your associations with that?
Like, what comes to mind whenyou hear that?

Andy Withrow (08:48):
spiritual director? Let's see. Someone who
directs someone spiritually.

Vanessa Caruso (08:54):
You go real literal with it. Like do you
don't have any like, pictures?
Just total honest, freeassociation? Spiritual factor?

Andy Withrow (09:05):
I don't. Yeah, that's a good question. I don't
know. I don't know. Okay. Sorry.
I should, I should have thoughtabout them.

Vanessa Caruso (09:14):
No, it might not have anything like that. A
connotation with it.

Andy Withrow (09:20):
Oh, like? Well, I think it's, it can be similar, I
think to like, a counseling orprofessional counseling. Yeah,
connotation, which for me, isn'toverly negative, but I think it
can be negative, like, it can beproblematic. And I would go, I
would follow. It was it's JamesHouston, who talked about
counselors as paid friends. Oh,yeah. And it can sound really

(09:43):
negative and disparaging towardsprofessional counseling. I
don't, I don't think it is onlya means to be I think it's just
more of a lamentation, thatwe've lost the gifts in our
society to be good friends tohonor the asking good questions
to be good listeners. And I Ithink I can associate that with
spiritual direction as well as Ithink there's I think it's a

(10:05):
good thing I think there's aneed for it. But I think to the
degree that it could rob us oror maybe it's a symptom of us
not being having spiritualfriendships yeah is a part of
it. But I think even withhealthy spiritual friendships,
spiritual direction, orspiritual directors are helpful
because they provide maybe likethe pastoral role, sort of this

(10:27):
this image or this standard thatwe can learn from that we can
learn the wisdom from. Yeah. Isthat makes sense totally
included way of saying,

Vanessa Caruso (10:35):
you know, that's a that's such an interesting
point. And thank you foranswering it. I, when I hear
spiritual direction, Shen orsomeone else's they are my like,
kind of free association with itis someone who's kind of wholly
good just sounds a little setapart ish. I think that's why

(10:58):
I'm so sheepish sometimes aboutsaying it because it sounds a
little bit like yeah, a guru.
Kind of feel. Yeah. And

Andy Withrow (11:07):
you want to avoid that connotation. Yeah. Because
a lot of spiritual action isn'tabout is actually the opposite
about having answers.

Vanessa Caruso (11:15):
It actually is the opposite. So the term is, is
problematic. So I heard SusanPhillips, share this in a
podcast, but you have her bookin here. I remember you showed
it to me the cultivated life.
She said it's from and she's aspiritual director. And she
talked about the origins of theterm spiritual director, she was

(11:36):
searching for, like, Where wasthis first named? A spiritual
director? And she found like amonk, who was a librarian who
said off, find out the answer,and he did find out the answer,
and said, it goes back to JohnClem, Marcus, Clem, MCIS, sixth
seventh century monk, who was atthe monastery at Mount Sinai.

(11:58):
And there's the first use of theword spiritual director. And she
said, It's the word Kubernetes.
In Greek, and that Paul uses thesame word to talk about a pilot
of a ship, who stands next tothe captain, so not the captain

(12:19):
with not the one with the handson the steering wheel. But the
person who stands next to thatperson, and knows the area knows
the terrain, and just says,Here's something to look out
for, oh, we need to be carefulof this. This is up ahead. So
they're kind of like anavigator, who knows the area,
but they never take control ofthe steering wheel and do it. So

(12:41):
there's, there's a picturethere, of spiritual direction,
that's a lot more helpful than aguru, or someone who's going to
tell you what to do, or a past,it's so different than a pastor
even in that way. So I lovedthat picture of, of someone who
stands next to the person who isstaring their life. And they

(13:06):
might not know the person's lifeinside and out. Of course, they
won't, but they have studiedspiritual formation, and
Christian spirituality. So theyknow some of the patterns and
some of the themes. And even ifthey don't know, let's say, the
director is going throughsomething that they've never
experienced or even dreamed ofexperiencing. They don't know

(13:26):
what the person should do, butthey know how to help the person
know. And they do that by makingspace with more silence than a
typical conversation. So thatthat's a feature of spiritual
direction is that there's aspaciousness to it because
Richard Rohr says that aspiritual director, their job is

(13:47):
to hold on to spirit. So theyintroduce the spirit as a
livable, incredible part of theconversation. And they keep
drawing the attention back tothe spirit to say, Okay, let's
make a little bit of space here.
So that you can check in withyourself with God about what you
just said. So that's one waythat they, they help the person

(14:08):
know how to know what to do. Andthe other main way is through
evocative questions. So the thetraining of my spiritual
direction is contemplative,evocative, so that contemplative
peace means that we're going tolook at things from a bunch of
different angles, like you wouldgo into an art gallery. And you
don't just like whiz past eachpiece you like caulk your head a

(14:30):
few times, and you look at itfrom a few different angles.
That's the contemplative part.
The evocative part is askingquestions that draw forth deeper
knowing. So those are the twomain ways that a spiritual
director comes alongside someonewho is steric trying to steer

(14:51):
their life in the direction thatthey want to go. How does that
sit with you?

Andy Withrow (14:58):
Well, I mean, it's those sound like essential
things in life. And in my senseis that you probably do that, or
you do that in the capacity,quote, unquote, professional
capacity, like you're trying tocultivate. You're trying to be
as good as you can at this atthis skill at this work. But

(15:19):
that I know that that overflowsinto other parts of your life
and relationships where you'renot doing it, quote, unquote,
professionally, totally, as afriend as probably as a wife and
a mom. And so just again, thatinteresting thing about that
dynamic between becauseeverything here seems pretty

(15:40):
like if you're gonna acknowledgeas a spiritual reality, and that
we need discernment for how tonavigate those things, in that,
and you're gonna go a stepfurther and say, Well, according
to the God of the Bible, all oflife is spiritual. Because,
yeah, he's created it all. Andhe's invested in connected to it

(16:02):
all. Yeah, it's speaking intoit, then, then these kinds of
relationships are essential forus. Yeah. That I think, maybe at
levels where you're seekingsomeone out to be in that
specific role more formally, butthen even in our everyday
relationships with one another,yeah, to be that for each other.

(16:24):
Yeah.

Vanessa Caruso (16:26):
That goes back to what you were saying about
therapists, as paid friends, orspiritual directors as paid
spiritual friends. I do thinkthe, I don't know the right
word, like the way of spiritualdirection is such a beautiful
way to relate in everyday life.
So that's one of the joys I haveabout spiritual direction is I

(16:47):
just love immersing myself inthat way of being which is very
similar to ways of being in thethat, that we learn in the
church or in other settings. Butthere is a uniqueness there,
with the kind of trust, like thetrust that this person has all

(17:09):
the tools they need, in order todiscern what to do. And instead
of me, fixing it for them,telling them what to do, telling
them they shouldn't feel likethat, or, you know, all those
kind of instincts we have, thatthere's this collaborative way
of relating with each other thatthat helps the knowing emerge.

Andy Withrow (17:37):
Yeah. And it seems like you're doing two things
with spiritual direction,you're, you are teaching people
to listen for themselves, asopposed to just telling them.
And you're, you're acknowledgingthat you not only that, but you
can't, you don't necessarilyknow what the answer is. Because

(18:01):
it's not your life. Yes, thatperson's life. Yeah. And that's
something that has to kind of bediscerned maybe in community,
but be discerned by by them, atthe very least, and it can't be
discerned it just for them. AndI think I've I think that's what
I've like from you. And I wouldsay from Elaine and Michael
Pountney, the time spent withall three of you. That's

(18:25):
something that I've picked up onover time, it's like I've
learned how to discern more, byspending time with these people
by learning how they discern orask good questions about
discernment.

Vanessa Caruso (18:38):
That's great. So one other piece, I didn't say is
that hopefully spiritualdirection is more than just talk
therapy about your spirituallife. And I don't mean that
derogative Lee, but there is,there is the hope that spiritual

(19:00):
direction would actually be aspace that evokes a felt sense
of God in the actual in thepresent moment. So instead of
just kind of rehearsing whathappened in your week, and being
asked questions and respondingto it, there is this kind of, it
feels a little bit morecharismatic and nature. This

(19:22):
willingness, like someone mightsay, you know, I really should
reconsider the way I tell thatstory. Or I wonder what it would
be like to talk about that withGod. I might hear that and say,
Would you be okay, if we did itright now, you know, like,
instead of doing it at somelater date, like, Oh, that'd be

(19:44):
good to think about but one day,the invitation in spiritual
direction is like that, thatthat's exactly what this space
is for, because it holds usaccountable to paying attention
to things we might not be ableto pay attention to on our own.
So there is A lot of permissionin spiritual direction to, to

(20:04):
practice and to try things. Orif someone, you know,
experiences like this pain ofgratitude for something in their
life, instead of moving on fromthat really quickly and being
like, That's so great. I mightsay, let's just take a moment
and just let that gratitude bethere as fully as it wants to

(20:26):
be. And they'll close their eyesand just kind of savor the
gratitude they have for thisgood thing that happened or
something they didn't think wasever possible. And letting that
bloom in real time is just oneof the most amazing things
instead of saying one day, I'lldo that. So there's, there's a

(20:46):
real focus on the presentmoment. And trusting that in our
bodies, with our imaginations,feelings, emotions, we can have
a felt sense of God's presencewith us kind of healing us and
you can kind of feel ithappening. There's a lot of
tears in spiritual direction,unexpectedly because of taking

(21:08):
the time to do stuff like that.

Andy Withrow (21:12):
Yeah, it's good.
And it reminds me of, like, wehave DNase at our church, yeah,
discipleship, nurture Academygroups, very small group, super
small groups, like two to fourpeople. And, and you help set up
and design some of these. Butwhere some of hopefully, some of
these kinds of things that we'retalking about happens kind of at
that level, that'd be moremutual, because it is given
take. So while you're talkingabout is like in a kind of a

(21:34):
designated relationship, likeI'm going to Vanessa, for
spiritual direction, yeah. Butagain, whereas some of this can
kind of happen in in theeveryday life or the regular
meetings with, with friends andpeople from the community. Yeah.

Vanessa Caruso (21:49):
And that is one of my favorite things in life is
that communal experience ofsomething like group spiritual
direction, and the DNA group, Iam a part of and have been since
being part of the table, wecontinue to meet once a month,
and we do a group spiritualdirection model. So we all do
that together. And it's soincredibly meaningful, life

(22:12):
giving. Okay, the next thing Iwanted to share are the reasons
why I go to spiritual direction,the main reasons. So I think the
first reason would just be anaccountability to tending to my
spiritual life. You know,Stephen and I were just in that

(22:33):
stage of life where we don'tconnect as much as we used to.
So we have a discipline oftrying to get out once a month
to do something, just to look ateach other, you know, and
sometimes you like, finally getout to dinner. And you're just
quiet and you're like, where dowe even start? Like, what do

(22:53):
what do we talk about, there'slike, a shyness there, or a lack
of connection. And spiritualdirection does feel similar to
me in that it's, uh, I've beengoing for seven years or
something. And it's just amonthly way to, like, show up.
Like, I sit in the chair, I takea deep breath. And then she, you
know, she looks at me and says,Okay, where would you like to

(23:15):
start today? And it's just like,an exhale of okay, I'm, I'm
tending to my spiritual life, atleast in this way. And it's kind
of a way to get a pulse checkagain on me at least once a
month, like Okay, where am I?
What have I been noticing? Like,where is God in my life? Because
the weeks go by so fast, and Imight even I might even do my

(23:39):
centering prayer, my examine andtake communion every Sunday and
still not. Not sit down and andnotice that or integrate it and
pay attention. Yeah. So that'smy number one reason for going
another reason I go is to one ofone of the most compelling ideas

(24:03):
for me, personally, is this ideaof, of living with creative,
courageous integrity. That wasin a foreword to one of Howard
Thurman's books. Vincent Hardingdescribed Thurman as living a
life of creative, courageousintegrity. And when I heard that
I was like, that's, that's how Ifeel called to live with

(24:23):
creativity, courage, and a lifeof integrity. And so spiritual
direction is one of the primaryarenas that I try to live out
that sense of calling, like ifthis is if this really makes me
come to life. How am I doing it?
So it's a way to process thatand check in about that and kind

(24:47):
of stay on my path stay in mylane towards creative courageous
integrity. And another reason Igo is because I am in a position
of spiritual leadership. Just Byvirtue of who I am, like,
whatever I'm a part of, I tendto want to be part of
facilitating, you know,conversations for people or

(25:10):
leading something or talkingabout something. So there's an
accountability there to, like,am I practicing what I preach?
And how, how much vitality isthere in my relationship with
God, because I talk about it alot. And so, I want integrity in
that way. So I think spiritualdirection is not necessarily for

(25:31):
everyone in all seasons of life.
But I do think it's especiallyimportant for anyone in a
position of spiritualleadership. Because it's a, it's
like looking in the mirror withsomeone else. And saying, where
I'm actually where it like, it'sa place to express doubts,
anger, to confess, like, wheredo pastors confess? It's a

(25:54):
powerful place of confession.
And when those happen, it'slike, you're on holy ground, you
know? Yeah. Okay. I talked alot.

Andy Withrow (26:06):
Good. No, I agree.
I think I mean, I think thelarger principle that we're
talking about, everybody needsthat. W, my conviction, right?
The question of whether you needactually felt like a season of
focus spiritual direction from,from someone who's, you know,
that's, that's what they do.

(26:27):
And, you know, that could beseasonal or discerning,
depending on that. But yeah, Iagree. I think I think I meet
regularly with the Reverend Dr.
Michael Pountney. Yeah. And alot in a lot of this gets gets
served in that way for me,because it's it's a helpful
space to reflect and examineand, and have that
accountability. But it's alsoit's, I mean, accountability.

(26:51):
Sounds kind of like a negative,but it's yeah, it's more freeing
than that. Yeah. Good point.
Because space space to breathespiritually. Yeah, that's a
weird way to say it, buttotally, yeah.

Vanessa Caruso (27:05):
Yeah, there's a lot of exhaling for me in
spiritual direction, so actuallyfits. Okay, a few ways.
spiritual direction is differentthan other things. Like
sometimes when I describe it,people think, oh, it's coaching.
It's kind of like spiritualcoaching. Or people that grew up
in the church think, oh, that'swhat I do with my pastor. Like,

(27:25):
yeah, when Andy meets with me,that's what it feels like. Some
people think it sounds likecounseling, they're like, oh, I
can talk about whatever I wantin counseling, and I have their
undivided attention focuses onme pay them, it helps me become
a more loving person in myactual relationships. So so many
similarities there. A few of thedifferences are that it's not

(27:48):
just for when you have aproblem, or when you're in a
transition, or when you're,you're stuck about something
like, the idea behind spiritualdirection is that it can be a
spiritual discipline for yourwhole life. So even if you're
not in a season of crisis, it'sa space where you get to talk
about the ordinary stuff that'stoo boring to talk about with

(28:10):
your partner, or your friends.
Like how much you love watchingthe tree outside your window, go
through its seasons that mightnot come up in everyday life,
but it's if spiritual directionis the regular practice stuff,
that little stuff, theunimportant stuff can come up.
It's very different thananything in the pastoral
counseling arena, because it'sspecifically with someone who is

(28:36):
outside of your community. Sothere's not the multiple agendas
at play there. Which is reallyfreeing. It's, of course, it's
good to be in relationship, andto talk about someone who knows
your life and your churchcommunity. So there's a benefit
there. But there also is abenefit of not having any dual
relationships, where thespiritual director is not going

(28:57):
to be hurt, offended, or weirdedout by something that you're
saying about someone they knowor about a community that they
know. So it really frees you, tobe honest about what's going on
for you. Yeah. So that's key isthat freedom from dual
relationships, or just, youknow, I started going to

(29:18):
spiritual direction when I justhad, I just was part of a very
tight knit church community,very active. Yet I still wanted
more. And I didn't know what todo with that. And if I tried to
talk about it with my pastor,there was always this sense,
like, we'll do more here and howcan we meet your need better?

(29:41):
And so I was self consciousabout naming some of the stuff I
was uncomfortable with because Ididn't even know what I thought
about it. So spiritual directionwas a place that helped me
process outside of that So far,so good still, that's great.
Keep going. Okay. So okay, we Iwant I only want to go for a few

(30:07):
more minutes. So what would beimportant to say? Like I said, a
lot of what a spiritual directordoes.

Andy Withrow (30:18):
Where you got. So just to let listeners in? Yeah,
we're about halfway through

Vanessa Caruso (30:24):
my, my three pages. Yeah.

Andy Withrow (30:27):
So we could we don't have to, we could come
back to this and do a part two,this is the goal for this
episode was to kind of do anintro into what is spiritual
direction, that's the thing. Sobut we can make it a two parter
we're, we normally release everytwo weeks. But we'll be back
next week. And so maybe we coulddo this kind of back to back.

Vanessa Caruso (30:46):
That'd be great.
Quicker. Yeah. And then we cantalk about what a session
actually are, like some of thenuts and bolts of it, and how to
find one which are important. SoI think something I want to say
just for the last part, is kindof some of the arguments against

(31:06):
spiritual direction. No one'shad an argument with me
personally, but I have them inmy own head. Even I won't go
into that. But so one of I heardsomebody say, once, you know,
his spiritual direction, justfor rich, white women, because
that those are the only way totalk about it. Which so stung to

(31:27):
hear that because of the truthof it. There, it does feel like
there's a privilege aroundspiritual direction. And I'm a
little bit embarrassed by howpopular it is

Andy Withrow (31:43):
privileged because of what because of time and
money. Yeah, it's becauseresources. Yeah,

Vanessa Caruso (31:47):
and there's just a lot of middle class to rich
white women who have beentrained in spiritual direction.
So that's a huge in the last 10years, you know, there's been
like, a huge boom, yeah. So. Andthere's like an Yvan evangelical
nature to it in the sense oflike, wanting to convert people
to it. It reminds me of theEnneagram, like, you know, over

(32:10):
the last five years, it's like,so much talk about the
Enneagram. Like, like, we alluse their numbers. And, oh, you
don't know the anagram, oh, mygosh, you're definitely up for
that, or whatever. So thepopularity of it, the niche
pneus of it. Just there'ssomething, there's something
true there that I just want toadmit that. I think it is that

(32:34):
it is problematic. And I alsoown that it's, I never knew what
I wanted to do with my life, Icould never find like, my career
and spiritual direction isdefinitely what makes me come
alive. So I'm so passionateabout it and grateful for it.
And yet, there's a lot of workto do around how it's talked

(32:54):
about perceived, presented.
Because there, Barbara Peacockhas this great book called Soul
care and the African Americanpractice kind of reclaiming the
roots of spiritual direction, inthe African American experience,
and it does go back to theDesert Fathers and mothers, and,
you know, Bible times, but itwas more of an oral thing. And

(33:19):
so there's this new wave aroundit that I just want to
acknowledge that anothercritique is that it's for
introverts or contemplatives,you know, like people that
really like to like talk aboutthemselves and like, belly
button gaze and stuff like that.
Which I can see that too, likepeople, some people think like,

(33:39):
Oh, I'm just too extroverted oractive, or I care too much about
the real world. I don't No one'sever said that. But that's one
of the arguments in my head isthat it just kind of insulates
rather than frees people tobecome more loving people in the
real world and in realrelationships. So those are some
of the arguments. I think it'sjust helpful to name like, if

(34:03):
you kind of have a connotationabout that you're not alone.

Andy Withrow (34:10):
Or we're gonna end on that negative

Vanessa Caruso (34:11):
connotation. No, I don't know.

Andy Withrow (34:16):
Yeah, I mean, I don't know what I that's, that's
interesting to hear you bring itup. I don't know what I think
about like said I hadn't, Iguess hasn't thought about it
that much before but it doeskind of make sense. I think
they're, I mean, the x I couldsee the introvert thing, the
navel gazing I think it's adanger of a lot of things
though. It's like anything couldbecome that you kind of tendency

(34:37):
but but the other side of it isif you never if you're never
looking at your internal life.
Yeah. That's that's a recipe fordisaster. Yeah. All of not just
in religious world in this inthe secular world would largely
agree with that. If you're ifyou're, if you've just live in
external life. In disastersaround the corner, you there

(35:00):
needs to be there needs to be acultivation of the interior
ordered world. And, and maybethere's all different ways of
thinking through that different,you know different religions
will take that different ways.
But they'll all focus to somedegree on that important facet.
So just thinking about theextrovert, one that that's

(35:21):
extroverts probably needed a bitmore just because a tendency to
maybe to be live in theextroverted, extroverted selves.
Yeah. I don't know what to sayabout the rich, right. That's,
that's interesting. Yeah. Andmaybe that that is, as you said,
Go. That's cause for someimportant reflection. I think it

(35:42):
is. What what is that about?
What does it mean? Yeah. Yeah,that's, that's interesting.

Vanessa Caruso (35:49):
I think it is, it's worth reflection. So maybe
I'll end on a more poll, youknow,

Andy Withrow (35:56):
you've read it as home. Well, this

Vanessa Caruso (35:58):
is kind of positive, negative. Have you
heard the Top Five Regrets ofthe Dying? There's been around a
few years ago by a palliativecare nurse to just collected
what she's heard over the years,the top five regrets the dining
brawny wears her name. So I wishI'd had the courage to live a
life true to myself, not thelife others, expected for me. I

(36:22):
wish I hadn't worked so much. Iwish I'd had the courage to
express my feelings. I wish Ihad stayed in touch with my
friends. And I wish that I hadlet myself be happier. Those are
really interesting things for apalliative care nurse to hear
over and over again in differentways, during people's last days,

(36:45):
and that's compelling to me. Sothere is maybe something dark
but not thinking about. Whatwould it be like to live now
with some of that in mind? Andhow do I do that? Yeah, that's
what spiritual direction andspiritual disciplines in general
and the spiritual formation lifeis about to me. Yeah.

Andy Withrow (37:09):
Yeah, it strikes me there's a hole it just in my
mind is just this this chasm inus. I mean, God has made us in
with, with such deep longingsand desires, and such a deep
internal world that I think canbe scary and intimidating. For
us. It's yeah, so we tend tolive out here. And so but, but

(37:34):
to have some sense of Godcalling us to that, and to want
to move into that space and, andsee where the Spirit is and what
the Spirit is saying. Alright,well, let's do let's see, part
two. Part Two next time. Yeah.
Let's get started. I told you.

Vanessa Caruso (37:57):
You knew it. And he told me he was like, maybe
this is too Thanks. It was likeno way. We got it in a half an
hour. Well,

Andy Withrow (38:03):
I kept I did talk

Vanessa Caruso (38:04):
a little bit of our fight. Fight. All right,
well, good start. We'll keepstanding by everybody.