March 10, 2023 • 41 mins
The disciples asked Jesus to teach them to pray and he did. The way he opens the prayer both connects us to the season of Lent and frames what prayer is and how we're to approach it.
Resources mentioned on the show:
Peterson, Bolz Weber, and Brueggemann paraphrases of The Lord’s Prayer - Here
Knowing God/Knowing Jesus Exercise from Trevor Hudson - Here
Fifty-Seven Words that Changed the World by Darrell Johnson- Here
The Lord & His Prayer by N.T. Wright - Here
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Vanessa Caruso (00:01):
Welcome to the bear with me podcast where we
aim to integrate belief andpractice in the Christian life.
Andy Withrow (00:19):
Hey, here we are rebounding. Andy. Good morning.
We're still in Lent.
Vanessa Caruso (00:23):
We are here for a while. Yeah, it
Andy Withrow (00:25):
turns out it lasts like 40 Something days. Yeah,
it's like 40 days of Lent plusthe Sundays, right? Which is
like 46 days or something likethat. Anyway,
Vanessa Caruso (00:33):
it's March though.
Andy Withrow (00:35):
It is March. It feels. I don't know why, but it
feels a little bit more likespring. Yeah. Why is that? It's
been
Vanessa Caruso (00:42):
sunny a few days. Okay, that helps. Maybe
some bulbs sprouting. Yeah.
Tulips
Andy Withrow (00:48):
come out in the morning, like, Oh, he's a little
warmer, but then I realized, Oh,look at the temperature. It's
like, that's kind of the same.
It's a psychological trick orsomething. Yeah, definitely. I
don't know that magic trick.
Yeah. Anyway, we're still inland. We talked about lent a lot
last time. Right, a lot. So goback to that one. But my main
idea for our topic today is thatLent. I think I mentioned this
(01:12):
last time on your big landintro. But Lent is to the
Christian year what a desert isto an ecosystem. Do you remember
that part? Yeah. Thomas Merton.
Ish. Yeah, yeah. Merton askwho's going to come up a little
bit later? And I think and wetalked last time, you had
brought up how 40 days in theBible comes up quite a bit.
(01:34):
Moses is in the wilderness for40 days up on the mountain for
40 days.
Vanessa Caruso (01:41):
Oh, I forgot about that one. Yeah, really?
Before the 20 commandments as
Andy Withrow (01:46):
well. It was sweet. Remember how he goes up a
few times? It's gettingconfusing there. But he's up
there. 40 days receiving? Yeah,all the all the commands. Okay.
And, and some of theinstructions for the tabernacle.
It's a long time. So long, infact that the, the folks at the
bottom of the mountain are like,
Vanessa Caruso (02:06):
Yeah, where is this guy? What's going on? Yeah,
it's been a month.
Andy Withrow (02:09):
Yeah. Yeah, it's kind of a long time and people
get impatient. We talked aboutJesus at His Baptist or before
or after His baptism. Yeah, he'sin the wilderness for 40 days.
Yeah. So these are this is asignificant time, Spencer,
there's something telegraphedhere like 40 days, something
about it? Yeah. And I, the oneof the thoughts to me was that
(02:33):
this idea of Lent sort of beinglike a desert experience, may
have something to do with why ina lot of churches in North
America, maybe evangelicalchurches especially. It's not it
hasn't been historically asobserved. Yes. Although I think
that's starting to change thelast like, decade or two. Yeah,
(02:55):
like, I think more and more,more and more folks are like,
oh, there's something to this.
Vanessa Caruso (03:00):
Yeah, there's something to learn. Yeah, you've
noticed that Advent too, butyeah, Lent is different.
Andy Withrow (03:07):
But it kind of makes sense like who would want
to go to the desert for 40 dayslike some people do right? Like
my wife would like to go to thedesert
Vanessa Caruso (03:14):
the first one I thought Yeah.
Andy Withrow (03:17):
But I mean the desert in the sense of middle of
nowhere no amenities not a lotof comforts. Not the things
we're used to that kind ofexperience
Vanessa Caruso (03:32):
Yeah, not as much distraction. Yeah,
Andy Withrow (03:35):
so the things that it brings can kind of be paired
with the things that you lose oryou miss out on Yeah, desert
when you miss out on Yeah, a lotof your usual comforts. Usual
routines the security that thecity can bring your town can
(03:56):
bring her wherever you live,that sort of thing. Yeah. So
this idea that there's greatwisdom behind this tradition
that the church wove into theircalendar year this 40 days of
preparation like Jesus did it weshould do it we should do some
observation or someone's ormarking of this time ensures
(04:20):
every year people who are tryingto follow Jesus actually follow
him into this part of his lifeas
Vanessa Caruso (04:26):
well which is so easy to bypass Yeah, skip the
desert. Yeah.
Andy Withrow (04:33):
Because Jesus went to the desert
Vanessa Caruso (04:35):
certain driven
Andy Withrow (04:39):
good one he was driven into the desert by the
Vanessa Caruso (04:42):
Spirit different Yeah. Rather than saying like
I'm gonna go do this yeah,
Andy Withrow (04:47):
I'm gonna go on a spiritual quest driven into the
desert. By the spirit
Vanessa Caruso (04:52):
I picture like put being pushed behind was
like, you know, your heels uplike have you ever felt that?
So? Yeah, recently a mentor who,you know, asked me, she said, Do
you have a sense that maybeyou're being driven into this
experience of I have a couple ofexperiences that are like a
(05:13):
desert right now in my life andinterests where there's not
resolution? Yeah, in certainrelationships. And I really like
to resolve things I like to beconnected result resolution is
nice. It's really nice. I thinkI talked about on the podcast
before, it's like when a seamreps in a relationship for me,
I'm like, so that sucker backup, let's get it back to what it
(05:36):
used to be. And sometimes, theseams needs to be ripped,
because there is a bettergarment or something being made.
So sewing it back up prematurelydoesn't actually respond to
what's needed. And so I feellike the threads loose, the
(05:56):
seams are open. And that feelsdeserty to me, and she said,
what if the Spirit? Is itpossible that you're being
driven into this? And that feltso much better? To think that
there might be a push into this?
Andy Withrow (06:11):
Interesting, yeah.
Sitting in the non resolution?
Vanessa Caruso (06:17):
Doesn't that sound lenti?
Andy Withrow (06:19):
very lengthy. So thinking about Jesus going into
the desert, like the literaldesert, but even just in his
life and ministry, intoconfronting darkness, into
facing death, and all that nonresolution. So in Lent, were
(06:41):
given that same permission, likelike your experience, like,
well, maybe this is somethingthat's okay for this season, to
see a name the non resolution ofour world, or the darkness of
our world. Yeah, and, and Ithink for me, what I've learned
in being Anglican now these 15some odd years is, is having,
(07:07):
being able to bring thatdarkness and that non resolution
into the context of worship.
Vanessa Caruso (07:12):
I loved it when you said that last time it's in.
Andy Withrow (07:15):
And I think that's the thing that's that's like a
gaping hole in the expressionof, of church or the experience
of church where you don't havethat space, where it's all just
the good stuff. The rest, webring the resolution to worship,
instead of the non resolutionparts to worship, which cuts out
(07:35):
like a whole swath of thePsalms. And the entire book of
Lamentations. Yeah, in job rightand job where it's like, no,
this to God can handle this andwants us to bring this to Him in
worship. So our experience of atthe table of of Ash Wednesday
service and Good Friday service,and in those sorts of things is
(07:58):
this big space to come. And saynot this is the season where we
practice grieving. I'm thatcontext of worship.
Vanessa Caruso (08:12):
Yeah, I agree.
You said it so well, I can't, Ican't,
Andy Withrow (08:18):
there's nothing else to say. So getting back to
your friend Thomas Martin. Yeah.
He wrote that The desert is theclimate where prayer flowers,
because opening line and hiscontemplative prayer,
interesting. So it makes methink the climate of all those
things that that dislocation,the climate of desolation, non
(08:39):
resolution. Dis constellation,what's that space? He's saying?
That's, that's where prayergrows into maturity into
effectiveness and to power.
Vanessa Caruso (08:52):
Why is that? Do you think?
Andy Withrow (08:54):
Well, he connects it to the space where human
comforts are absent the thingsthat we're usually relying on
for our sense of security andbelonging, and comfort. Those
are all gone. And we're thecert, he says, where the secure
the secure routines of our cityoffers no support. And the
(09:14):
correlation with that is thatthis is where prayer must be
secured by God in the purity offaith. So where you've sort of
cleared everything else out thethings that you usually go for
your comfort, your resolution,your sense of who you are, in
the meaning of life andeverything. You've cleared those
out in a very uncomfortable way.
So that you might cling to Godin the in that whole sense of
(09:37):
who you are, my You are myresolution, you are my ultimate
comfort.
Vanessa Caruso (09:45):
So we're more dependent, more vulnerable,
which is more human moreourselves. It's like, it's not
we're not in the illusion thatwe're We're fine. We're self
sufficient.
Andy Withrow (10:00):
Yeah, it's like pulling back a veil. It's not
like I'm gonna make myselfinsecure so that I can trust
God. So I'm going to reveal how,how insecure I really, yeah know
how much I really need. Yeah,like is the idea behind it?
Vanessa Caruso (10:13):
Isn't it a little bit counterintuitive to
think that the desert is theclimate where prayer flowers?
Because it is easy to think thatprayer, the best kinds of prayer
are when we feel spiritual. Whenwe feel grateful. When we're
praising when we're doing well,when our lives are going well,
(10:35):
you kind of think like, thatwould be like a good season of
prayer. Yeah, it's a littlecounterintuitive, but
immediately makes so much sense.
That it's when the seams havebeen ripped a little bit,
Andy Withrow (10:50):
I think, yeah, I think that those seasons where
you feel like you're you youare, you're hitting on all the
cylinders of prayer, or it'slike, you feel like you have
that. The constellation? Yeah,deep connection. Yeah. I think
two things like one, it could bemisleading. It could be it could
(11:13):
be like, maybe you're just happybecause of these other things.
Yeah. But too, it could bebecause it is really great.
Yeah. And God is providing thosethings is a great thing to be
thankful for. But I think this,what we're talking about here
kind of expands the range ofwhat we can call a good prayer
(11:33):
life. Yeah. It says, oh, no,when I'm feeling this
constellation. That's a sign ofsomething as well. That's also a
sign of closeness. You go backto, you know, the Blessed are
the poor in spirit. They're notfeeling that constantly. If
(11:53):
you're spiritually impoverished,the implication is, well, I
don't feel super great aboutanything, which is my prayer
life. Yeah. But yet those arethe ones to whom belong the
kingdom of God. Wow. So for me,I think the imagination is to
expand well, to expand ourimagination. What where is God
(12:13):
close to us? Is where it kind offeels like a win win. It's like,
well, when it feels good, great,celebrate that. But when it
doesn't feel good, great,because that's where God is
often the closest. Thatinteresting, yes. It's
interesting. So we the Sermon onthe Mount, that's in Matthew's
(12:38):
Gospel, it's the it's chaptersfive through seven. And it's,
it's Jesus's first big publicaddress in the gospel. So he's
just done the desert, baptismthe desert, he's come in to
Galilee thing, good news, chemo.
God is here, right now. And thenhe has this big inauguration
moment, not creation sermon. Ididn't
Vanessa Caruso (12:59):
realize it was on the heels of the desert.
Yeah, okay. Deserts,
Andy Withrow (13:03):
I think in chapter three, Noah's chapter four,
chapter four, and then he callsa few disciples, and then he
goes and does his thing. And thesermon on the mount is primarily
about receiving the kingdom ofGod. In right, almost the exact
center of the sermon is Jesusteaching on prayer. You may know
(13:24):
it, Lord's prayer
Vanessa Caruso (13:26):
that's in the Sermon on the Mount. Yeah,
didn't remember
Andy Withrow (13:28):
right in the middle, chapter six. Okay. And
so right before the sermon,Jesus had just spent his version
of Lent in the desert 40 days,and now he's teaching those who
would follow him how to pray,and what we call the Lord's
Prayer. And it occurred to methat for a lot of us prayer
(13:52):
often feels like the desert
Vanessa Caruso (13:54):
experience. Yes.
That is so true.
Andy Withrow (13:57):
Like, just can feel dry can feel empty. You
don't feel a lot of consolationor comfort. Yeah, often.
Vanessa Caruso (14:05):
Yes. It's I was thinking, hello, and then that
echo. Hello, hello. Hello.
Hello. Hello. That I feel like alot of people say that. Yes.
Andy Withrow (14:18):
I know sometimes for me in prayer, My mind
wanders back to what Mertoncalls the comforts of my city.
Yeah, I could better spend mytime
Vanessa Caruso (14:27):
definitely. It could be getting a lot done
right now. Instead of feeling somediocre and distracted. Yeah.
And doubting like, Is this even?
Is there somebody listening? Soit's no
Andy Withrow (14:41):
wonder that prayer is difficult? Yes. For so much
of us. Yeah. Yeah. What are yourgospels, so much of Jesus life
and work you see him findingtime and space to pray all over
the place? Early in the morningfor everyone else woke up,
sneaks away A psalm LonelyMountain. They find them
(15:03):
praying. It's as if the secretto his life and ministry are
bound up in this life of prayer.
finding peace, comfort andprovision and the power of God
in the desert
Vanessa Caruso (15:17):
to you want to know what he prayed about?
Andy Withrow (15:19):
Yeah, do you know?
Vanessa Caruso (15:20):
No. I don't know if this is a good time to say
it. But so I'm doing thespiritual exercises, St.
Ignatius, and there's this partcalled the election where you
articulate your vocation, likewhat does? What is your real
name? And with the idea thatyour name kind of summarizes who
(15:45):
you are and why you're here,
Andy Withrow (15:46):
your first name or your last name?
Vanessa Caruso (15:48):
Your like, meta name, okay. Yeah. And some
people's maybe their nameactually does capture it in
terms of
Andy Withrow (15:56):
some name and no, like, who are you?
Vanessa Caruso (15:59):
Yes, that's the metaphorical idea. But it's not
like I believe I am Sarah, doyou know what I mean? Like the
you know, how Jesus gives peopledifferent names with the with
the idea that that name thatJesus gives them is like their
real name. So in that exercises,there's this opportunity to
discover and articulate what isthe thing that I bring to the
(16:24):
world that is uniquely me,unrepeatable through Vanessa
Marie Caruso. And what could Ione way I thought about it? What
could I like, study podcastabout write about for the rest
of my life and never get bored?
Yeah. Like, what's the thingthat gets me? So an example in
this Jesuit book I read aboutdiscovering your personal
(16:47):
vocation was the goodness ofGod, you know, there was this
guy. Yeah. And it was like, evenif he hadn't, he couldn't pray
about anything else that alwaystouched him, the goodness of
God. So that was his personalvocation. It was, I'm gonna, I'm
gonna pray towards that. I'mgoing to live towards that and
remind myself of that, and I'mgoing to be that in the world.
That's my like, kind of focus.
(17:10):
So in this book, the authorsuggested Jesus had one. Jesus
had a vocation. Oh, yeah. And hesaid, he thinks he could
encapsulate Jesus's vocationwith the word Abba. So when you
talked about Jesus, retreatingto pray, that it was the source
of his ministry, it was what hereturned to. Yeah, if it does
(17:33):
feel like Abba, captures that,because it's this conversation.
It's this relationship fromwhich everything else comes
from. It's good. Do you likethat vocation for Jesus?
Andy Withrow (17:49):
I do. Yeah, yeah.
Yeah,
Vanessa Caruso (17:51):
I do. Yeah.
Surprising. A little bit.
Andy Withrow (17:54):
Yeah. Because anything? I mean, I would say
yes, in part because of ourtopic this morning. Or wherever
you are in podcast time. Has, itkind of pops up all over the
Gospels is concerned for theFather. He reveals the Father,
don't you know, me, The Fatheris with me the whole all the
time. So yeah, that's, that'spretty fascinating. So yeah, so
(18:23):
getting into the Lord's Prayer,and the, the opening line, our
Father in heaven. It sort ofshapes the whole prayer, even
what you're saying, with thevocation like Jesus, concern and
relationship and intimacy withthe Father. In it speaks to
(18:47):
intimacy and power, and kind ofin the same breath, like, you
think of all the lines of theLord's Prayer, you know, how to
be your name, your kingdom come,Your will be done, Give us this
day I read and so on. But itstarts off with this. Our Father
in heaven that he teaches us topray that, which is pretty
interesting. It really is,right? Yes. It's like it's kind
(19:08):
of a spiritual prayer for me. Uhhuh. And my father, this is what
I say. Yeah. You say you kind ofmake up your own is pray like
this. So just again, combiningthis with the season or the the
wilderness of land or the desertof Lent with this part of the
(19:29):
prayer of our father. Soretraining, our maybe our place
of comfort and location, andconstellation, those kinds of
things or security with ourfather, my father.
Vanessa Caruso (19:50):
Wow. Yeah.
Andy Withrow (19:54):
And the challenge with this is our relationship
Tips with our actual fathers.
Vanessa Caruso (20:03):
That's the main thing.
Andy Withrow (20:06):
So my, my dad was loving and kind and generous and
playful, but he was also absent,and short sighted and weak and
hurtful. So he had both thesethings. And most of us are
somewhere in that continuum,right? And yeah, tracks,
somewhere in there. And it'slike, ah, in. And so you know,
(20:32):
of course, that's gonna playinto how we how we think of God
is our Father. Yeah. And so butJesus invites us into his
experience of, of what he callshis ABA, his father. My father,
he says, loves to good gifts,good gifts to his children. My
(20:53):
father is kind in good. In fact,if you like me, says, Jesus,
you'll love the Father.
Vanessa Caruso (21:02):
That's such a nice idea.
Andy Withrow (21:07):
Because anyone who has seen me has seen the Father.
And He will never leave youalone. And so it invites us into
taking the things like with mydad example that were that fell
short of what you would call agood father, you're invited to
replace some of those things.
Okay. Remember, though, thatJesus Father is these things,
doesn't go away, is alwayspresent is kind Yeah, he is
(21:32):
generous, those sorts of things.
So Darrell Johnson put thosefaces Jesus comes to us, He
reveals Himself to us, andinvites us to follow him into
his understanding of the Father.
So you can't really do this, Ithink without kind of a regular
understanding of who Jesus is.
(21:57):
Yeah. That's going to beessential for for being able to
pray our ABA
Vanessa Caruso (22:02):
exam. Okay, that reminds me, I can't think of who
I feel like it's an archbishop.
It's always a good guess. Whosaid, God is Christ like? And in
God, there is no unpricedlikeness at all. It's kind of
reversing the idea that Christis God like, yeah, like, I would
(22:25):
say, we would say like, oh, AndyIra looks a lot like you, your
son. This is a little bit sayinglike, we don't know, Andy, but
we know IRA, like the people athis school, let's say. And then
when you come in, they're like,Oh, you look a lot like IRA.
(22:46):
Yeah, like the one we know.
Yeah. That's that when you saidwe have to get to know Jesus a
bit. It's kind of extrapolatingwhat we know. Right? From Jesus
to God. Yeah. Yeah, reverse kindof way. Right. Put
Andy Withrow (23:03):
it this way. He says, we often ask is Jesus God?
Yeah. But that assumes that Godis the known thing. And Jesus is
the unknown. Exactly. And hesays that it's better to reverse
that and say, Is God, Jesus?
Yes. That's what I meant. Yeah.
Yes. Yeah, just another way ofputting the same thing. And I
think it's a good imaginationshift for us to say, hey, is God
(23:27):
Jesus? Is the father, known byknowing Jesus? Because we know a
lot more about Jesus. And thatwas the whole point. Yeah.
According to the Gospels islike, this is the we see the
face of God and Jesus Christ.
This is the revelation of whoGod is. Yeah, this is God's
choice to say, This is who I am.
(23:49):
If you want to know me know,this one.
Vanessa Caruso (23:53):
And then Jesus says, if you know me, if you
have seen me, then rest assured,you know, God, no, I remember
Trevor Hudson gave the exerciseto write a column with God, then
next to a column with Jesus, putassociations with God on the
(24:14):
left hand side, I should putthat in the show notes.
associations with God on theleft hand side and associations
with Jesus on the right handside. And then try to reconcile
them kind of backwards. Like letthe Jesus column What's another
word for Trump? Why do you wantto kind of redo my vocabulary?
Andy Withrow (24:43):
Yeah, yeah, I know what you're okay. Yeah.
Vanessa Caruso (24:46):
super impose.
Yes. It's just that feels likethe thought thought experiment
to really identify where there'slack of reconciliation. Yeah,
Andy Withrow (24:57):
that's good.
That's a great exercise for forus. Yeah. So just thinking about
how you read through the Gospelsthere's, in if you read through
the Gospels as I to what doesJesus say about the Father? How
often does he refer to theFather, it's, you start to
notice it a lot more. It'sreally fascinating. Yeah. And to
pay attention to it. Becausethere's a love between the
(25:19):
father and the son that comesout. That in prayer were invited
into, were ushered into thatrelationship. And so we pray Our
Father, you can have in yourimagination, the Father and the
Son and yourself kind of in thatmoment, I think that's, that's
intentional. I think that's whatwe're invited into.
Vanessa Caruso (25:40):
Okay. I hadn't actually thought of that I kind
of thought are, as in humanity.
Like I, that was the accent forme on our father is, oh, I don't
I'm not praying alone. Like,yeah, my father. I'm remembering
that in part of a family. Ihadn't really thought. It's
another way you could read thatis Jesus is saying,
Andy Withrow (26:02):
he's putting himself in the car. Yeah. Our
Father
Vanessa Caruso (26:05):
No. Like, do you ever talk to your siblings? And
you say, by accident? Well, mymom said, and then you're like,
sorry,
Andy Withrow (26:12):
I didn't know.
She's your mom, too. Yeah.
Vanessa Caruso (26:15):
That was kind of like that.
Andy Withrow (26:17):
Yeah, yeah. Yeah.
Probably. I mean, you think heincluded himself? And even if he
didn't, he's gonna be there.
Like the intimacy between theFather and the Son are so close,
that you can't, you really can'tget one without the other. So
Vanessa Caruso (26:34):
it also makes me think, what are all the other
words that could have startedthat prayer? Like, I'm, we're so
used to the Lord's Prayer forthose of us who grew up with it
or pray regularly. But so we'relike Our Father who art in
heaven, hallowed be thy name thykingdom. But it is a bit
surprising that that's those arethe first two words like I might
(26:56):
have guessed it would be our Godor Dear Holy One, or Almighty
God? Yes. Yeah. That's a big oneor judge of the nation's. That's
a good one. Yeah. It changes thefeeling of the prayer.
Andy Withrow (27:15):
Yeah. Who happens to be our father? Yes.
Vanessa Caruso (27:21):
Sir, dear sir, yeah. Yeah, exactly. But our
Father,
Andy Withrow (27:27):
to whom it may concern? Yeah.
Vanessa Caruso (27:34):
Yeah, it's pretty like you could meditate
on that for a long time. I'mrealizing now the Our Father. I,
there's this philosopher MarilynWestfall, who said, I've said it
before, because I love it. Inthe beginning, was relationship.
That's how he summarizesGenesis, in the beginning was
(27:55):
relationship. And this prayerfeels like it's saying the same
thing in two words. In one word,really?
Andy Withrow (28:02):
Yeah. Yeah, yeah.
It's that relationship betweenthe Father and the Son. It
didn't have it doesn't reallyhave a beginning.
Vanessa Caruso (28:18):
That's weird.
Andy Withrow (28:19):
Yeah. Because we believe that the sun is CO
eternal with the Father. Yeah.
So we talked about and rememberwhen we did the origins classes,
you know, one of the majorthemes was that God has always
been a family, and that it's notsomething he invented, or
created. For us. It was like,No, that's the default. That's,
(28:42):
there's no such thing asnonfamily ever in the creation
or non creation. Yeah. And sothis idea that family is
optional for us, or the sense ofbelonging to other people into
God is, is an alien idea. Likefamily or community isn't an
(29:08):
optional add on? Right? For ahuman person. That's
interesting.
Vanessa Caruso (29:15):
It's super interesting.
Andy Withrow (29:18):
Yeah.
Vanessa Caruso (29:20):
Okay, in the exercises, there's, I don't know
the like, Latin word for it. Butum, there's this opportunity to
contemplate the Trinity.
Deciding what to do, like, likeimagining the three talking
about, what do we do? Should oneof us go down there? What would
(29:42):
that look like? Who would wesend? What are the risks of
that? What are the benefits ofthat? And so it's like an
imaginative prayer exercise towhat you're saying. Not God
being like, Hmm, how am I goingto feel Next things, but the
Trinity whatever that lookslike, Father, Son, Holy Spirit,
(30:04):
contemplating together, theincarnation and and the what the
cost of the Incarnation wouldlikely look like and deciding
together. Shall we get close tohumans that way? Shall we make
ourselves known that way? Andthen electing one of them?
(30:24):
Interesting. Yeah.
Andy Withrow (30:31):
Yeah, really interesting. Yeah, helpful
exercise. So we start off withour Father in heaven. And we're
invited into this intimacy aswe've been talking about, which,
again, just frames the whole,the whole thing, the whole
(30:52):
prayer, because we're calledinto NT, right puts it this way,
we're called by going by callingGodfather we're ushered into the
family business. And the familybusiness is participation in the
kingdom of God. Or the worldturned upside down. If you read
through the Beatitudes, you readthrough the Sermon on the Mount
(31:12):
was like, it's all about theworld getting turned upside
down. And its value system andeverything else. Evil gets
confronted, darkness gets faced.
So going into the desert, let'sface this stuff. That's the
That's God's business. And we'reinvited into it not by
ourselves, but like, No, this iswhat the family does. We go into
the desert, we experience lentin this world, we push against
(31:34):
these things in our prayer, andin the work that God gives us to
do. You see it by followingJesus the sense of following
Jesus deeper into the desert, orinto the garden of Gethsemane at
the very end Yeah. And and wesee it at the cross as well.
(31:55):
Right with confrontation withthis darkness looks like but we
also see the other side of it incalling God our Father, we see
our salvation. We see theresurrection, we see the death
of evil and the death of deathitself. Death of death. Yeah,
death dies. Wow, that was ourAsh Wednesday theme. Oh my god.
Death to death. Jeez.
Vanessa Caruso (32:18):
Really? Yeah.
Yeah. Death to death. Yeah, Igot it. Death dies. Yeah.
Andy Withrow (32:23):
Death of death.
Wow, cool.
So our Father in heaven isn'tjust God, our Father does, wants
the best for us. He does. Hedoes want the best for us. But
he's also has the authority andthe power to see it done. So
(32:43):
it's the in heaven part, Ithink, throne of heaven,
intimacy, and power and power.
So it's nice to have a good dadwho's kind but if he's kind of a
pushover, and a weakling, andcan't actually advocate for you
in any meaningful way. It'slike, Oh, I love dad. He's got
really great intentions. But tohave it had was actually
powerful. Yeah, like, no, that'snot well, no child of mine. No,
(33:06):
you know,
Vanessa Caruso (33:12):
my nose. Yeah.
Wow, I'd never thought aboutthat. And our father,
Andy Withrow (33:18):
who's in bad is my kid you step away, sir. Right
now. Or you're gonna have sometrouble like that kind of day.
Oh, yeah. That's a good dad. Notjust the nice and kind but the
both good.
Vanessa Caruso (33:37):
Ooh, that that's kinda makes me feel things.
Yeah. That's the in heaven part.
I like that. That's what the inheaven is kind of then saying
that's the power part thecapability the don't know how to
say it, but it's the otherness
Andy Withrow (34:03):
of God. Yeah.
Okay. Our authority, thestrength. So this is the prayer
that Jesus taught his disciplesthat anyone who would seek to
follow Jesus says this is howyou pray. That's the other piece
of we didn't really talk aboutand Darrell Johnson picks up on
(34:23):
this in his book is like, wedon't have to wonder is this an
okay prayer? Is this aneffective prayers like this is
the prayer that Jesus gave us.
So it's probably reliable.
Vanessa Caruso (34:40):
Yes. It just makes me feel stupid about how
much time I've spent, liketrying to craft really good
prayers. I don't mean up forpublic consumption. I just mean
on my own, like searching forthe words and the feelings and
just the angst I've expressedpranced
Andy Withrow (35:02):
Yeah, well I think there's like it's a very it's a
very simple but also very broadtype of prayer in general in a
lot of ways even though it'slike has it's specific to our
Father in his very specificlocation identity relationship
covers a lot of ground but thenyou're looking at your kingdom
(35:23):
come your will be done. On earthas in heaven give us today our
daily bread. Forgive us our sinsas we forgive deliver from evil.
Like you go a lot of places witheach of those lines, right? Oh,
you can spend spend a day on ourFather in heaven? Yeah, easily.
Yeah. What is your kingdom come?
What does that mean? We'll readthrough the sermon on the mount
(35:45):
you get a lot of ideasimmediately, like oh, when you
say pray Your kingdom come Youmean this, this and this? Or you
can look at Jesus in thegospels. Oh, Kingdom Come is
sight to the blind. Oh KingdomCome is touching the untouchable
Oh Kingdom Come is raising thedead. You know, and so you can
(36:06):
make you can make your listslike, okay, when you say pray
Your kingdom come, you're askingme to pray for these specific
things in my life in the worldaround me. So you get lots of
ideas. Yeah, Kingdom Come lookslike which is kind of an
abstract thing until you startputting the data points down.
(36:27):
Oh, that's kingdom come. Prayfor that.
Let's finish up with this great.
This prayer takes us into theheart of Jesus relationship with
his father. And it shows us whoGod is and what he cares about.
(36:49):
If you're prayed these things,these are God's priority, what
God cares about. And so justlike the theme of the Sermon on
the Mount, the theme of theLord's Prayer is bringing God's
kingdom to Earth to transformour broken and dark world, and
(37:11):
lent gives us the season to behonest about how broken and dark
it is in the presence of God,and to transform it into the
kingdom of God. So one practice,and maybe you can think of one
to share mine, if you have onefor Lent is to pray the Lord's
Prayer. And one idea is take youget I used to think take a line
(37:36):
for each day of the week,because you kind of you can
break it down to seven line,there's different ways to break
it up. So I don't want to getinto that. But there's you could
do one line. I like that eachday of the week. But for Lent,
you could do although we'realready into,
Vanessa Caruso (37:53):
oh, week, three, three,
Andy Withrow (37:57):
let you could do one for each week. Anyway,
however you want to do it. One,take a line a day or a line a
week and just let that shape howyou pray for yourself and
others. So if it's our Father inheaven, it's like God, remind me
that you are my father in heavenand all the things we talked
(38:18):
about, you're a kind, you'regenerous, you care, you're
present. All those things, youpray that for your neighbor, for
your family. You can pray forall the needs around you through
the lens of our Father inheaven. I love
Vanessa Caruso (38:31):
it. Like let it be the opener. Yeah. For your
prayer,
Andy Withrow (38:35):
or even the theme.
Yeah, carriers are pretty good.
Pray for all sorts of things.
Yeah. But just let it kind of bethat the source or the root of
the prayer, or the theme of theprayer, the lens of the prayer
is Father in heaven.
Vanessa Caruso (38:49):
I like that.
Because one of the things thatkeeps me from praying is
overwhelmed. Like, where do Istart? And how do I remember all
the needs? Yeah. And what do Isay about them? Like that kind
of block? Yeah. Theperfectionism, which leads to
(39:10):
procrastination, which leads tonot praying. So this is a way
around that it's saying. Jesussaid, this is a good prayer,
taking the first line, andletting that guide me knowing
that there will be tomorrow ornext week where I'll, how would
be your name? Yeah. Somethingelse go.
Andy Withrow (39:34):
Something else.
Good.
Vanessa Caruso (39:35):
I like it. And it's a great idea.
Andy Withrow (39:36):
And it routes your prayer life in the in the
relationship rather than in thethings around you. Which I think
is the actual only hope for thethings around you is if you're
actually rooted in thisrelationship with our other Oh,
those are my thoughts for theday. Wow.
Vanessa Caruso (39:57):
Thank you, Andy.
One idea that came to mind whenyou said in practice was that
I've rewritten the Lord's Prayera few times, just in my own
words and not trying to soundcool, like not for anyone else
to read, but as a way to try tounderstand what it means and to
personalize it. So that comes tomind as, as something to do.
(40:19):
Should I do to kind of translateit? as honestly as possible?
Andy Withrow (40:30):
Yeah. I think that you have an example. Yeah, that
you can put
Vanessa Caruso (40:33):
in? Oh, yeah, I can put example in. But what
sparked that was I thinknotables whoever did it. And I
read our daily rice. Oh, yeah, Iremember this one. Yeah, I was
like, right. So much of theworld. That would be the more
accurate word there. And so thatkind of sparked my imagination.
(40:56):
I mean, looking at the messagesversion would be great, too.
Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Cool. What arewe gonna talk about next? And I
know Me neither.
Andy Withrow (41:13):
We could do more of the Lord's prayer or if you
got something. Okay. We'll beback. We'll be back in a couple
of weeks. Yes. Yes. Okay,thanks, guys. It was fun. Yeah,
good times. Thanks, everybody.
Welcome to the bear with me podcast where we
aim to integrate belief andpractice in the Christian life.
Andy Withrow (00:19):
Hey, here we are rebounding. Andy. Good morning.
We're still in Lent.
Vanessa Caruso (00:23):
We are here for a while. Yeah, it
Andy Withrow (00:25):
turns out it lasts like 40 Something days. Yeah,
it's like 40 days of Lent plusthe Sundays, right? Which is
like 46 days or something likethat. Anyway,
Vanessa Caruso (00:33):
it's March though.
Andy Withrow (00:35):
It is March. It feels. I don't know why, but it
feels a little bit more likespring. Yeah. Why is that? It's
been
Vanessa Caruso (00:42):
sunny a few days. Okay, that helps. Maybe
some bulbs sprouting. Yeah.
Tulips
Andy Withrow (00:48):
come out in the morning, like, Oh, he's a little
warmer, but then I realized, Oh,look at the temperature. It's
like, that's kind of the same.
It's a psychological trick orsomething. Yeah, definitely. I
don't know that magic trick.
Yeah. Anyway, we're still inland. We talked about lent a lot
last time. Right, a lot. So goback to that one. But my main
idea for our topic today is thatLent. I think I mentioned this
(01:12):
last time on your big landintro. But Lent is to the
Christian year what a desert isto an ecosystem. Do you remember
that part? Yeah. Thomas Merton.
Ish. Yeah, yeah. Merton askwho's going to come up a little
bit later? And I think and wetalked last time, you had
brought up how 40 days in theBible comes up quite a bit.
(01:34):
Moses is in the wilderness for40 days up on the mountain for
40 days.
Vanessa Caruso (01:41):
Oh, I forgot about that one. Yeah, really?
Before the 20 commandments as
Andy Withrow (01:46):
well. It was sweet. Remember how he goes up a
few times? It's gettingconfusing there. But he's up
there. 40 days receiving? Yeah,all the all the commands. Okay.
And, and some of theinstructions for the tabernacle.
It's a long time. So long, infact that the, the folks at the
bottom of the mountain are like,
Vanessa Caruso (02:06):
Yeah, where is this guy? What's going on? Yeah,
it's been a month.
Andy Withrow (02:09):
Yeah. Yeah, it's kind of a long time and people
get impatient. We talked aboutJesus at His Baptist or before
or after His baptism. Yeah, he'sin the wilderness for 40 days.
Yeah. So these are this is asignificant time, Spencer,
there's something telegraphedhere like 40 days, something
about it? Yeah. And I, the oneof the thoughts to me was that
(02:33):
this idea of Lent sort of beinglike a desert experience, may
have something to do with why ina lot of churches in North
America, maybe evangelicalchurches especially. It's not it
hasn't been historically asobserved. Yes. Although I think
that's starting to change thelast like, decade or two. Yeah,
(02:55):
like, I think more and more,more and more folks are like,
oh, there's something to this.
Vanessa Caruso (03:00):
Yeah, there's something to learn. Yeah, you've
noticed that Advent too, butyeah, Lent is different.
Andy Withrow (03:07):
But it kind of makes sense like who would want
to go to the desert for 40 dayslike some people do right? Like
my wife would like to go to thedesert
Vanessa Caruso (03:14):
the first one I thought Yeah.
Andy Withrow (03:17):
But I mean the desert in the sense of middle of
nowhere no amenities not a lotof comforts. Not the things
we're used to that kind ofexperience
Vanessa Caruso (03:32):
Yeah, not as much distraction. Yeah,
Andy Withrow (03:35):
so the things that it brings can kind of be paired
with the things that you lose oryou miss out on Yeah, desert
when you miss out on Yeah, a lotof your usual comforts. Usual
routines the security that thecity can bring your town can
(03:56):
bring her wherever you live,that sort of thing. Yeah. So
this idea that there's greatwisdom behind this tradition
that the church wove into theircalendar year this 40 days of
preparation like Jesus did it weshould do it we should do some
observation or someone's ormarking of this time ensures
(04:20):
every year people who are tryingto follow Jesus actually follow
him into this part of his lifeas
Vanessa Caruso (04:26):
well which is so easy to bypass Yeah, skip the
desert. Yeah.
Andy Withrow (04:33):
Because Jesus went to the desert
Vanessa Caruso (04:35):
certain driven
Andy Withrow (04:39):
good one he was driven into the desert by the
Vanessa Caruso (04:42):
Spirit different Yeah. Rather than saying like
I'm gonna go do this yeah,
Andy Withrow (04:47):
I'm gonna go on a spiritual quest driven into the
desert. By the spirit
Vanessa Caruso (04:52):
I picture like put being pushed behind was
like, you know, your heels uplike have you ever felt that?
So? Yeah, recently a mentor who,you know, asked me, she said, Do
you have a sense that maybeyou're being driven into this
experience of I have a couple ofexperiences that are like a
(05:13):
desert right now in my life andinterests where there's not
resolution? Yeah, in certainrelationships. And I really like
to resolve things I like to beconnected result resolution is
nice. It's really nice. I thinkI talked about on the podcast
before, it's like when a seamreps in a relationship for me,
I'm like, so that sucker backup, let's get it back to what it
(05:36):
used to be. And sometimes, theseams needs to be ripped,
because there is a bettergarment or something being made.
So sewing it back up prematurelydoesn't actually respond to
what's needed. And so I feellike the threads loose, the
(05:56):
seams are open. And that feelsdeserty to me, and she said,
what if the Spirit? Is itpossible that you're being
driven into this? And that feltso much better? To think that
there might be a push into this?
Andy Withrow (06:11):
Interesting, yeah.
Sitting in the non resolution?
Vanessa Caruso (06:17):
Doesn't that sound lenti?
Andy Withrow (06:19):
very lengthy. So thinking about Jesus going into
the desert, like the literaldesert, but even just in his
life and ministry, intoconfronting darkness, into
facing death, and all that nonresolution. So in Lent, were
(06:41):
given that same permission, likelike your experience, like,
well, maybe this is somethingthat's okay for this season, to
see a name the non resolution ofour world, or the darkness of
our world. Yeah, and, and Ithink for me, what I've learned
in being Anglican now these 15some odd years is, is having,
(07:07):
being able to bring thatdarkness and that non resolution
into the context of worship.
Vanessa Caruso (07:12):
I loved it when you said that last time it's in.
Andy Withrow (07:15):
And I think that's the thing that's that's like a
gaping hole in the expressionof, of church or the experience
of church where you don't havethat space, where it's all just
the good stuff. The rest, webring the resolution to worship,
instead of the non resolutionparts to worship, which cuts out
(07:35):
like a whole swath of thePsalms. And the entire book of
Lamentations. Yeah, in job rightand job where it's like, no,
this to God can handle this andwants us to bring this to Him in
worship. So our experience of atthe table of of Ash Wednesday
service and Good Friday service,and in those sorts of things is
(07:58):
this big space to come. And saynot this is the season where we
practice grieving. I'm thatcontext of worship.
Vanessa Caruso (08:12):
Yeah, I agree.
You said it so well, I can't, Ican't,
Andy Withrow (08:18):
there's nothing else to say. So getting back to
your friend Thomas Martin. Yeah.
He wrote that The desert is theclimate where prayer flowers,
because opening line and hiscontemplative prayer,
interesting. So it makes methink the climate of all those
things that that dislocation,the climate of desolation, non
(08:39):
resolution. Dis constellation,what's that space? He's saying?
That's, that's where prayergrows into maturity into
effectiveness and to power.
Vanessa Caruso (08:52):
Why is that? Do you think?
Andy Withrow (08:54):
Well, he connects it to the space where human
comforts are absent the thingsthat we're usually relying on
for our sense of security andbelonging, and comfort. Those
are all gone. And we're thecert, he says, where the secure
the secure routines of our cityoffers no support. And the
(09:14):
correlation with that is thatthis is where prayer must be
secured by God in the purity offaith. So where you've sort of
cleared everything else out thethings that you usually go for
your comfort, your resolution,your sense of who you are, in
the meaning of life andeverything. You've cleared those
out in a very uncomfortable way.
So that you might cling to Godin the in that whole sense of
(09:37):
who you are, my You are myresolution, you are my ultimate
comfort.
Vanessa Caruso (09:45):
So we're more dependent, more vulnerable,
which is more human moreourselves. It's like, it's not
we're not in the illusion thatwe're We're fine. We're self
sufficient.
Andy Withrow (10:00):
Yeah, it's like pulling back a veil. It's not
like I'm gonna make myselfinsecure so that I can trust
God. So I'm going to reveal how,how insecure I really, yeah know
how much I really need. Yeah,like is the idea behind it?
Vanessa Caruso (10:13):
Isn't it a little bit counterintuitive to
think that the desert is theclimate where prayer flowers?
Because it is easy to think thatprayer, the best kinds of prayer
are when we feel spiritual. Whenwe feel grateful. When we're
praising when we're doing well,when our lives are going well,
(10:35):
you kind of think like, thatwould be like a good season of
prayer. Yeah, it's a littlecounterintuitive, but
immediately makes so much sense.
That it's when the seams havebeen ripped a little bit,
Andy Withrow (10:50):
I think, yeah, I think that those seasons where
you feel like you're you youare, you're hitting on all the
cylinders of prayer, or it'slike, you feel like you have
that. The constellation? Yeah,deep connection. Yeah. I think
two things like one, it could bemisleading. It could be it could
(11:13):
be like, maybe you're just happybecause of these other things.
Yeah. But too, it could bebecause it is really great.
Yeah. And God is providing thosethings is a great thing to be
thankful for. But I think this,what we're talking about here
kind of expands the range ofwhat we can call a good prayer
(11:33):
life. Yeah. It says, oh, no,when I'm feeling this
constellation. That's a sign ofsomething as well. That's also a
sign of closeness. You go backto, you know, the Blessed are
the poor in spirit. They're notfeeling that constantly. If
(11:53):
you're spiritually impoverished,the implication is, well, I
don't feel super great aboutanything, which is my prayer
life. Yeah. But yet those arethe ones to whom belong the
kingdom of God. Wow. So for me,I think the imagination is to
expand well, to expand ourimagination. What where is God
(12:13):
close to us? Is where it kind offeels like a win win. It's like,
well, when it feels good, great,celebrate that. But when it
doesn't feel good, great,because that's where God is
often the closest. Thatinteresting, yes. It's
interesting. So we the Sermon onthe Mount, that's in Matthew's
(12:38):
Gospel, it's the it's chaptersfive through seven. And it's,
it's Jesus's first big publicaddress in the gospel. So he's
just done the desert, baptismthe desert, he's come in to
Galilee thing, good news, chemo.
God is here, right now. And thenhe has this big inauguration
moment, not creation sermon. Ididn't
Vanessa Caruso (12:59):
realize it was on the heels of the desert.
Yeah, okay. Deserts,
Andy Withrow (13:03):
I think in chapter three, Noah's chapter four,
chapter four, and then he callsa few disciples, and then he
goes and does his thing. And thesermon on the mount is primarily
about receiving the kingdom ofGod. In right, almost the exact
center of the sermon is Jesusteaching on prayer. You may know
(13:24):
it, Lord's prayer
Vanessa Caruso (13:26):
that's in the Sermon on the Mount. Yeah,
didn't remember
Andy Withrow (13:28):
right in the middle, chapter six. Okay. And
so right before the sermon,Jesus had just spent his version
of Lent in the desert 40 days,and now he's teaching those who
would follow him how to pray,and what we call the Lord's
Prayer. And it occurred to methat for a lot of us prayer
(13:52):
often feels like the desert
Vanessa Caruso (13:54):
experience. Yes.
That is so true.
Andy Withrow (13:57):
Like, just can feel dry can feel empty. You
don't feel a lot of consolationor comfort. Yeah, often.
Vanessa Caruso (14:05):
Yes. It's I was thinking, hello, and then that
echo. Hello, hello. Hello.
Hello. Hello. That I feel like alot of people say that. Yes.
Andy Withrow (14:18):
I know sometimes for me in prayer, My mind
wanders back to what Mertoncalls the comforts of my city.
Yeah, I could better spend mytime
Vanessa Caruso (14:27):
definitely. It could be getting a lot done
right now. Instead of feeling somediocre and distracted. Yeah.
And doubting like, Is this even?
Is there somebody listening? Soit's no
Andy Withrow (14:41):
wonder that prayer is difficult? Yes. For so much
of us. Yeah. Yeah. What are yourgospels, so much of Jesus life
and work you see him findingtime and space to pray all over
the place? Early in the morningfor everyone else woke up,
sneaks away A psalm LonelyMountain. They find them
(15:03):
praying. It's as if the secretto his life and ministry are
bound up in this life of prayer.
finding peace, comfort andprovision and the power of God
in the desert
Vanessa Caruso (15:17):
to you want to know what he prayed about?
Andy Withrow (15:19):
Yeah, do you know?
Vanessa Caruso (15:20):
No. I don't know if this is a good time to say
it. But so I'm doing thespiritual exercises, St.
Ignatius, and there's this partcalled the election where you
articulate your vocation, likewhat does? What is your real
name? And with the idea thatyour name kind of summarizes who
(15:45):
you are and why you're here,
Andy Withrow (15:46):
your first name or your last name?
Vanessa Caruso (15:48):
Your like, meta name, okay. Yeah. And some
people's maybe their nameactually does capture it in
terms of
Andy Withrow (15:56):
some name and no, like, who are you?
Vanessa Caruso (15:59):
Yes, that's the metaphorical idea. But it's not
like I believe I am Sarah, doyou know what I mean? Like the
you know, how Jesus gives peopledifferent names with the with
the idea that that name thatJesus gives them is like their
real name. So in that exercises,there's this opportunity to
discover and articulate what isthe thing that I bring to the
(16:24):
world that is uniquely me,unrepeatable through Vanessa
Marie Caruso. And what could Ione way I thought about it? What
could I like, study podcastabout write about for the rest
of my life and never get bored?
Yeah. Like, what's the thingthat gets me? So an example in
this Jesuit book I read aboutdiscovering your personal
(16:47):
vocation was the goodness ofGod, you know, there was this
guy. Yeah. And it was like, evenif he hadn't, he couldn't pray
about anything else that alwaystouched him, the goodness of
God. So that was his personalvocation. It was, I'm gonna, I'm
gonna pray towards that. I'mgoing to live towards that and
remind myself of that, and I'mgoing to be that in the world.
That's my like, kind of focus.
(17:10):
So in this book, the authorsuggested Jesus had one. Jesus
had a vocation. Oh, yeah. And hesaid, he thinks he could
encapsulate Jesus's vocationwith the word Abba. So when you
talked about Jesus, retreatingto pray, that it was the source
of his ministry, it was what hereturned to. Yeah, if it does
(17:33):
feel like Abba, captures that,because it's this conversation.
It's this relationship fromwhich everything else comes
from. It's good. Do you likethat vocation for Jesus?
Andy Withrow (17:49):
I do. Yeah, yeah.
Yeah,
Vanessa Caruso (17:51):
I do. Yeah.
Surprising. A little bit.
Andy Withrow (17:54):
Yeah. Because anything? I mean, I would say
yes, in part because of ourtopic this morning. Or wherever
you are in podcast time. Has, itkind of pops up all over the
Gospels is concerned for theFather. He reveals the Father,
don't you know, me, The Fatheris with me the whole all the
time. So yeah, that's, that'spretty fascinating. So yeah, so
(18:23):
getting into the Lord's Prayer,and the, the opening line, our
Father in heaven. It sort ofshapes the whole prayer, even
what you're saying, with thevocation like Jesus, concern and
relationship and intimacy withthe Father. In it speaks to
(18:47):
intimacy and power, and kind ofin the same breath, like, you
think of all the lines of theLord's Prayer, you know, how to
be your name, your kingdom come,Your will be done, Give us this
day I read and so on. But itstarts off with this. Our Father
in heaven that he teaches us topray that, which is pretty
interesting. It really is,right? Yes. It's like it's kind
(19:08):
of a spiritual prayer for me. Uhhuh. And my father, this is what
I say. Yeah. You say you kind ofmake up your own is pray like
this. So just again, combiningthis with the season or the the
wilderness of land or the desertof Lent with this part of the
(19:29):
prayer of our father. Soretraining, our maybe our place
of comfort and location, andconstellation, those kinds of
things or security with ourfather, my father.
Vanessa Caruso (19:50):
Wow. Yeah.
Andy Withrow (19:54):
And the challenge with this is our relationship
Tips with our actual fathers.
Vanessa Caruso (20:03):
That's the main thing.
Andy Withrow (20:06):
So my, my dad was loving and kind and generous and
playful, but he was also absent,and short sighted and weak and
hurtful. So he had both thesethings. And most of us are
somewhere in that continuum,right? And yeah, tracks,
somewhere in there. And it'slike, ah, in. And so you know,
(20:32):
of course, that's gonna playinto how we how we think of God
is our Father. Yeah. And so butJesus invites us into his
experience of, of what he callshis ABA, his father. My father,
he says, loves to good gifts,good gifts to his children. My
(20:53):
father is kind in good. In fact,if you like me, says, Jesus,
you'll love the Father.
Vanessa Caruso (21:02):
That's such a nice idea.
Andy Withrow (21:07):
Because anyone who has seen me has seen the Father.
And He will never leave youalone. And so it invites us into
taking the things like with mydad example that were that fell
short of what you would call agood father, you're invited to
replace some of those things.
Okay. Remember, though, thatJesus Father is these things,
doesn't go away, is alwayspresent is kind Yeah, he is
(21:32):
generous, those sorts of things.
So Darrell Johnson put thosefaces Jesus comes to us, He
reveals Himself to us, andinvites us to follow him into
his understanding of the Father.
So you can't really do this, Ithink without kind of a regular
understanding of who Jesus is.
(21:57):
Yeah. That's going to beessential for for being able to
pray our ABA
Vanessa Caruso (22:02):
exam. Okay, that reminds me, I can't think of who
I feel like it's an archbishop.
It's always a good guess. Whosaid, God is Christ like? And in
God, there is no unpricedlikeness at all. It's kind of
reversing the idea that Christis God like, yeah, like, I would
(22:25):
say, we would say like, oh, AndyIra looks a lot like you, your
son. This is a little bit sayinglike, we don't know, Andy, but
we know IRA, like the people athis school, let's say. And then
when you come in, they're like,Oh, you look a lot like IRA.
(22:46):
Yeah, like the one we know.
Yeah. That's that when you saidwe have to get to know Jesus a
bit. It's kind of extrapolatingwhat we know. Right? From Jesus
to God. Yeah. Yeah, reverse kindof way. Right. Put
Andy Withrow (23:03):
it this way. He says, we often ask is Jesus God?
Yeah. But that assumes that Godis the known thing. And Jesus is
the unknown. Exactly. And hesays that it's better to reverse
that and say, Is God, Jesus?
Yes. That's what I meant. Yeah.
Yes. Yeah, just another way ofputting the same thing. And I
think it's a good imaginationshift for us to say, hey, is God
(23:27):
Jesus? Is the father, known byknowing Jesus? Because we know a
lot more about Jesus. And thatwas the whole point. Yeah.
According to the Gospels islike, this is the we see the
face of God and Jesus Christ.
This is the revelation of whoGod is. Yeah, this is God's
choice to say, This is who I am.
(23:49):
If you want to know me know,this one.
Vanessa Caruso (23:53):
And then Jesus says, if you know me, if you
have seen me, then rest assured,you know, God, no, I remember
Trevor Hudson gave the exerciseto write a column with God, then
next to a column with Jesus, putassociations with God on the
(24:14):
left hand side, I should putthat in the show notes.
associations with God on theleft hand side and associations
with Jesus on the right handside. And then try to reconcile
them kind of backwards. Like letthe Jesus column What's another
word for Trump? Why do you wantto kind of redo my vocabulary?
Andy Withrow (24:43):
Yeah, yeah, I know what you're okay. Yeah.
Vanessa Caruso (24:46):
super impose.
Yes. It's just that feels likethe thought thought experiment
to really identify where there'slack of reconciliation. Yeah,
Andy Withrow (24:57):
that's good.
That's a great exercise for forus. Yeah. So just thinking about
how you read through the Gospelsthere's, in if you read through
the Gospels as I to what doesJesus say about the Father? How
often does he refer to theFather, it's, you start to
notice it a lot more. It'sreally fascinating. Yeah. And to
pay attention to it. Becausethere's a love between the
(25:19):
father and the son that comesout. That in prayer were invited
into, were ushered into thatrelationship. And so we pray Our
Father, you can have in yourimagination, the Father and the
Son and yourself kind of in thatmoment, I think that's, that's
intentional. I think that's whatwe're invited into.
Vanessa Caruso (25:40):
Okay. I hadn't actually thought of that I kind
of thought are, as in humanity.
Like I, that was the accent forme on our father is, oh, I don't
I'm not praying alone. Like,yeah, my father. I'm remembering
that in part of a family. Ihadn't really thought. It's
another way you could read thatis Jesus is saying,
Andy Withrow (26:02):
he's putting himself in the car. Yeah. Our
Father
Vanessa Caruso (26:05):
No. Like, do you ever talk to your siblings? And
you say, by accident? Well, mymom said, and then you're like,
sorry,
Andy Withrow (26:12):
I didn't know.
She's your mom, too. Yeah.
Vanessa Caruso (26:15):
That was kind of like that.
Andy Withrow (26:17):
Yeah, yeah. Yeah.
Probably. I mean, you think heincluded himself? And even if he
didn't, he's gonna be there.
Like the intimacy between theFather and the Son are so close,
that you can't, you really can'tget one without the other. So
Vanessa Caruso (26:34):
it also makes me think, what are all the other
words that could have startedthat prayer? Like, I'm, we're so
used to the Lord's Prayer forthose of us who grew up with it
or pray regularly. But so we'relike Our Father who art in
heaven, hallowed be thy name thykingdom. But it is a bit
surprising that that's those arethe first two words like I might
(26:56):
have guessed it would be our Godor Dear Holy One, or Almighty
God? Yes. Yeah. That's a big oneor judge of the nation's. That's
a good one. Yeah. It changes thefeeling of the prayer.
Andy Withrow (27:15):
Yeah. Who happens to be our father? Yes.
Vanessa Caruso (27:21):
Sir, dear sir, yeah. Yeah, exactly. But our
Father,
Andy Withrow (27:27):
to whom it may concern? Yeah.
Vanessa Caruso (27:34):
Yeah, it's pretty like you could meditate
on that for a long time. I'mrealizing now the Our Father. I,
there's this philosopher MarilynWestfall, who said, I've said it
before, because I love it. Inthe beginning, was relationship.
That's how he summarizesGenesis, in the beginning was
(27:55):
relationship. And this prayerfeels like it's saying the same
thing in two words. In one word,really?
Andy Withrow (28:02):
Yeah. Yeah, yeah.
It's that relationship betweenthe Father and the Son. It
didn't have it doesn't reallyhave a beginning.
Vanessa Caruso (28:18):
That's weird.
Andy Withrow (28:19):
Yeah. Because we believe that the sun is CO
eternal with the Father. Yeah.
So we talked about and rememberwhen we did the origins classes,
you know, one of the majorthemes was that God has always
been a family, and that it's notsomething he invented, or
created. For us. It was like,No, that's the default. That's,
(28:42):
there's no such thing asnonfamily ever in the creation
or non creation. Yeah. And sothis idea that family is
optional for us, or the sense ofbelonging to other people into
God is, is an alien idea. Likefamily or community isn't an
(29:08):
optional add on? Right? For ahuman person. That's
interesting.
Vanessa Caruso (29:15):
It's super interesting.
Andy Withrow (29:18):
Yeah.
Vanessa Caruso (29:20):
Okay, in the exercises, there's, I don't know
the like, Latin word for it. Butum, there's this opportunity to
contemplate the Trinity.
Deciding what to do, like, likeimagining the three talking
about, what do we do? Should oneof us go down there? What would
(29:42):
that look like? Who would wesend? What are the risks of
that? What are the benefits ofthat? And so it's like an
imaginative prayer exercise towhat you're saying. Not God
being like, Hmm, how am I goingto feel Next things, but the
Trinity whatever that lookslike, Father, Son, Holy Spirit,
(30:04):
contemplating together, theincarnation and and the what the
cost of the Incarnation wouldlikely look like and deciding
together. Shall we get close tohumans that way? Shall we make
ourselves known that way? Andthen electing one of them?
(30:24):
Interesting. Yeah.
Andy Withrow (30:31):
Yeah, really interesting. Yeah, helpful
exercise. So we start off withour Father in heaven. And we're
invited into this intimacy aswe've been talking about, which,
again, just frames the whole,the whole thing, the whole
(30:52):
prayer, because we're calledinto NT, right puts it this way,
we're called by going by callingGodfather we're ushered into the
family business. And the familybusiness is participation in the
kingdom of God. Or the worldturned upside down. If you read
through the Beatitudes, you readthrough the Sermon on the Mount
(31:12):
was like, it's all about theworld getting turned upside
down. And its value system andeverything else. Evil gets
confronted, darkness gets faced.
So going into the desert, let'sface this stuff. That's the
That's God's business. And we'reinvited into it not by
ourselves, but like, No, this iswhat the family does. We go into
the desert, we experience lentin this world, we push against
(31:34):
these things in our prayer, andin the work that God gives us to
do. You see it by followingJesus the sense of following
Jesus deeper into the desert, orinto the garden of Gethsemane at
the very end Yeah. And and wesee it at the cross as well.
(31:55):
Right with confrontation withthis darkness looks like but we
also see the other side of it incalling God our Father, we see
our salvation. We see theresurrection, we see the death
of evil and the death of deathitself. Death of death. Yeah,
death dies. Wow, that was ourAsh Wednesday theme. Oh my god.
Death to death. Jeez.
Vanessa Caruso (32:18):
Really? Yeah.
Yeah. Death to death. Yeah, Igot it. Death dies. Yeah.
Andy Withrow (32:23):
Death of death.
Wow, cool.
So our Father in heaven isn'tjust God, our Father does, wants
the best for us. He does. Hedoes want the best for us. But
he's also has the authority andthe power to see it done. So
(32:43):
it's the in heaven part, Ithink, throne of heaven,
intimacy, and power and power.
So it's nice to have a good dadwho's kind but if he's kind of a
pushover, and a weakling, andcan't actually advocate for you
in any meaningful way. It'slike, Oh, I love dad. He's got
really great intentions. But tohave it had was actually
powerful. Yeah, like, no, that'snot well, no child of mine. No,
(33:06):
you know,
Vanessa Caruso (33:12):
my nose. Yeah.
Wow, I'd never thought aboutthat. And our father,
Andy Withrow (33:18):
who's in bad is my kid you step away, sir. Right
now. Or you're gonna have sometrouble like that kind of day.
Oh, yeah. That's a good dad. Notjust the nice and kind but the
both good.
Vanessa Caruso (33:37):
Ooh, that that's kinda makes me feel things.
Yeah. That's the in heaven part.
I like that. That's what the inheaven is kind of then saying
that's the power part thecapability the don't know how to
say it, but it's the otherness
Andy Withrow (34:03):
of God. Yeah.
Okay. Our authority, thestrength. So this is the prayer
that Jesus taught his disciplesthat anyone who would seek to
follow Jesus says this is howyou pray. That's the other piece
of we didn't really talk aboutand Darrell Johnson picks up on
(34:23):
this in his book is like, wedon't have to wonder is this an
okay prayer? Is this aneffective prayers like this is
the prayer that Jesus gave us.
So it's probably reliable.
Vanessa Caruso (34:40):
Yes. It just makes me feel stupid about how
much time I've spent, liketrying to craft really good
prayers. I don't mean up forpublic consumption. I just mean
on my own, like searching forthe words and the feelings and
just the angst I've expressedpranced
Andy Withrow (35:02):
Yeah, well I think there's like it's a very it's a
very simple but also very broadtype of prayer in general in a
lot of ways even though it'slike has it's specific to our
Father in his very specificlocation identity relationship
covers a lot of ground but thenyou're looking at your kingdom
(35:23):
come your will be done. On earthas in heaven give us today our
daily bread. Forgive us our sinsas we forgive deliver from evil.
Like you go a lot of places witheach of those lines, right? Oh,
you can spend spend a day on ourFather in heaven? Yeah, easily.
Yeah. What is your kingdom come?
What does that mean? We'll readthrough the sermon on the mount
(35:45):
you get a lot of ideasimmediately, like oh, when you
say pray Your kingdom come Youmean this, this and this? Or you
can look at Jesus in thegospels. Oh, Kingdom Come is
sight to the blind. Oh KingdomCome is touching the untouchable
Oh Kingdom Come is raising thedead. You know, and so you can
(36:06):
make you can make your listslike, okay, when you say pray
Your kingdom come, you're askingme to pray for these specific
things in my life in the worldaround me. So you get lots of
ideas. Yeah, Kingdom Come lookslike which is kind of an
abstract thing until you startputting the data points down.
(36:27):
Oh, that's kingdom come. Prayfor that.
Let's finish up with this great.
This prayer takes us into theheart of Jesus relationship with
his father. And it shows us whoGod is and what he cares about.
(36:49):
If you're prayed these things,these are God's priority, what
God cares about. And so justlike the theme of the Sermon on
the Mount, the theme of theLord's Prayer is bringing God's
kingdom to Earth to transformour broken and dark world, and
(37:11):
lent gives us the season to behonest about how broken and dark
it is in the presence of God,and to transform it into the
kingdom of God. So one practice,and maybe you can think of one
to share mine, if you have onefor Lent is to pray the Lord's
Prayer. And one idea is take youget I used to think take a line
(37:36):
for each day of the week,because you kind of you can
break it down to seven line,there's different ways to break
it up. So I don't want to getinto that. But there's you could
do one line. I like that eachday of the week. But for Lent,
you could do although we'realready into,
Vanessa Caruso (37:53):
oh, week, three, three,
Andy Withrow (37:57):
let you could do one for each week. Anyway,
however you want to do it. One,take a line a day or a line a
week and just let that shape howyou pray for yourself and
others. So if it's our Father inheaven, it's like God, remind me
that you are my father in heavenand all the things we talked
(38:18):
about, you're a kind, you'regenerous, you care, you're
present. All those things, youpray that for your neighbor, for
your family. You can pray forall the needs around you through
the lens of our Father inheaven. I love
Vanessa Caruso (38:31):
it. Like let it be the opener. Yeah. For your
prayer,
Andy Withrow (38:35):
or even the theme.
Yeah, carriers are pretty good.
Pray for all sorts of things.
Yeah. But just let it kind of bethat the source or the root of
the prayer, or the theme of theprayer, the lens of the prayer
is Father in heaven.
Vanessa Caruso (38:49):
I like that.
Because one of the things thatkeeps me from praying is
overwhelmed. Like, where do Istart? And how do I remember all
the needs? Yeah. And what do Isay about them? Like that kind
of block? Yeah. Theperfectionism, which leads to
(39:10):
procrastination, which leads tonot praying. So this is a way
around that it's saying. Jesussaid, this is a good prayer,
taking the first line, andletting that guide me knowing
that there will be tomorrow ornext week where I'll, how would
be your name? Yeah. Somethingelse go.
Andy Withrow (39:34):
Something else.
Good.
Vanessa Caruso (39:35):
I like it. And it's a great idea.
Andy Withrow (39:36):
And it routes your prayer life in the in the
relationship rather than in thethings around you. Which I think
is the actual only hope for thethings around you is if you're
actually rooted in thisrelationship with our other Oh,
those are my thoughts for theday. Wow.
Vanessa Caruso (39:57):
Thank you, Andy.
One idea that came to mind whenyou said in practice was that
I've rewritten the Lord's Prayera few times, just in my own
words and not trying to soundcool, like not for anyone else
to read, but as a way to try tounderstand what it means and to
personalize it. So that comes tomind as, as something to do.
(40:19):
Should I do to kind of translateit? as honestly as possible?
Andy Withrow (40:30):
Yeah. I think that you have an example. Yeah, that
you can put
Vanessa Caruso (40:33):
in? Oh, yeah, I can put example in. But what
sparked that was I thinknotables whoever did it. And I
read our daily rice. Oh, yeah, Iremember this one. Yeah, I was
like, right. So much of theworld. That would be the more
accurate word there. And so thatkind of sparked my imagination.
(40:56):
I mean, looking at the messagesversion would be great, too.
Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Cool. What arewe gonna talk about next? And I
know Me neither.
Andy Withrow (41:13):
We could do more of the Lord's prayer or if you
got something. Okay. We'll beback. We'll be back in a couple
of weeks. Yes. Yes. Okay,thanks, guys. It was fun. Yeah,
good times. Thanks, everybody.
Popular Podcasts
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com
24/7 News: The Latest
The latest news in 4 minutes updated every hour, every day.