January 26, 2023 • 31 mins
This is Part 2 follow up to the "Intro to Spiritual Direction" episode.
Vanessa breaks down the nuts and bolts of Spiritual Direction - how to find a director and what to expect for fees, your first meeting and beyond.
Finally, Vanessa shares her idea of finding God at Disney while Andy looks for God in the Desert.
Links & Resources:
Here's a link to MORE LINKS for finding a Spiritual Director
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Vanessa Caruso (00:01):
Welcome to the bear with me podcast where we
aim to integrate belief andpractice in the Christian life
Andy Withrow (00:17):
All right, Ron.
Great. And it's 2023 It is.
Yeah. This is our first one of2023. Wow, it's
Vanessa Caruso (00:25):
towards the end of the month. Yeah. Cool.
Andy Withrow (00:29):
Yeah. All right.
We're back. Yeah, that mattersnow. And we're the we're gonna
finish the long anticipated longexpected, long awaited. I
picture people waiting by theirrelative podcast platforms for
this episode. Part two, right,part two of intro to spiritual
direction. Yes. FeaturingVanessa Caruso.
Vanessa Caruso (00:52):
Thank you for being so concerned about
bringing this to completion,Andy. I didn't imagine people
refreshing their podcast.
Andy Withrow (01:01):
Positive that's what's happening. Okay, well, we
very much relieved to hear it isdownloaded. Listen to this
episode. Right. So where are we?
You were listening to the partone on the way in this morning?
Yeah. So recap for us what,where we're at and what we need
to do next. Great.
Vanessa Caruso (01:18):
So part one about spiritual direction was an
intro to spiritual direction.
And this one, I wanted to make alittle bit more about the
logistics like how do I find aspiritual director? And what can
I expect in a spiritualdirection, relationship or
session in particular? So justto recap, spiritual direction,
the name is a little bitproblematic the term just
(01:43):
because it sounds like you'regoing to get direction, like,
what should I do? Should I goback to college? Or should I
quit my job?
Andy Withrow (01:53):
A lot of people want to know those kinds of
things they do might bedisappointed when they go to
Yeah, and they don't get thedirection. Don't
Vanessa Caruso (01:58):
get that advice, or the like, do this, right. So
not the most helpful term may,especially
Andy Withrow (02:05):
in our day and age where there's too many options.
Vanessa Caruso (02:08):
There's Andy, there's so many options, so many
good. Go to a spiritualdirector, they're not going to
tell me what to do now,unfortunately. Okay. So doing a
spiritual direction is helpingsomeone pay attention to God's
personal communication to them.
Andy Withrow (02:24):
So God can tell him a physical so let's go back
to college.
Vanessa Caruso (02:27):
Yes. And that's a spiritual action as far as
making that space in yourschedule. Okay. All right, to to
start putting the cluestogether, about how God is
leading you. What God's openingup for you. Why are you smiling?
Because
Andy Withrow (02:43):
I was picturing myself, like, being a new kind
of spiritual direction that justpeople come and pay. And I tell
them exactly what
Vanessa Caruso (02:50):
it would be amazing.
Andy Withrow (02:52):
Like people would some people would love that, oh,
that's what they need. You know,
Vanessa Caruso (02:55):
Andy, I actually think that would be a great,
there should be like, one weekof the month, where spiritual
directors are just like, eff it.
I'm just gonna, like, be ashonest as possible. This is
Andy Withrow (03:07):
what you need to do. Yes. Yeah. Okay. But that's
not that might be what peopleare wanting, yes, or what people
are needing,
Vanessa Caruso (03:16):
right. And actually, in long term, it's
really empowering to be able tofind that we have a wisdom
within us from the Holy Spirit,about what to do in our lives.
So it's like that teach a personto fish versus fishing for them
Andy Withrow (03:37):
personally, to LISTEN to the Spirit. Yeah. And
act. It needs
Vanessa Caruso (03:41):
space and time, though. That's something we're
short on as people right now.
You know, so that hour a month,it seems like a lot to like pay
to go talk to someone about yourrelationship with God. At the
end of the day, 60 minutes amonth, sometimes is the most
that you actually pause and openand, and admit and talk about
(04:04):
what's really going on. Sospiritual direction is, is about
moving from just talking aboutGod or thinking about God or all
those one days, one day, I'llhave a meditation practice one
day, I'll do this or that it'sit's really a space to
experience God and to reflect onour experience of God in
(04:30):
everyday life.
Andy Withrow (04:32):
So maybe if you're someone who has an idea of
engaging the spiritualdisciplines, for example, like I
want to be better at listeningto hearing recognizing, hearing
and listening to God's voice inmy life. Yeah, but maybe for
whatever reason, the bar ofbeginning that practice really
(04:53):
knowing how to start, but if youset aside time in your calendar
and you put a little bit ofmoney aside, you're putting
resources there, then you're atleast is guaranteeing one hour a
month? Yes. Or whatever therhythm is? Yeah. Okay, I'm gonna
do this, I'm gonna learn fromsomeone else. How to begin to do
some of these practices?
Vanessa Caruso (05:10):
Yeah, yeah.
Yeah, it's kind of baseline, if,if there's nothing else, there's
that, but the nature of it isthat, you know, you, you, you
think about what came up in thatspiritual direction session for
the rest of the month. I lovedoing special direction in
person because the drive to orthe walk to direction
appointment and the walker driveor bike home from that
(05:36):
appointment, that likeintegrating time. And that
reflection time is just sovaluable. So that's even better
than zoom, where you can like bedoing something and then a
minute later, you can log on.
And then the minute after youlog off, you like move on to
your email. So just settingaside that time, it's kind of
(05:56):
like an hour and a half inVictoria, to have an hour long
session. 15 minutes there, 15minutes back, that does a lot
for the rest of the week, whichcan change the month in terms of
your awareness of God in in yourtrue real, everyday life. Yeah.
So that's why people might wantto go is to reflect on their
(06:19):
experience of God in everydaylife.
Andy Withrow (06:22):
Okay, so you've recapped where we are. Now, I
think you wanted to talk about acouple of things, including, how
do you find? How do you go aboutbeginning to find a spiritual
director?
Vanessa Caruso (06:34):
Yeah, I have a sense that people are curious
about spiritual direction, butdon't know where to start. So
that if you're listening, andyou're interested, or you have a
friend who meets with aspiritual director, and you're
like, Hmm, you know, I didn'tused to feel a desire for that.
But for some reason, I'm kind ofdrawn to it. But I don't know
where to start. Here are somegood places to start. One would
(06:57):
be to pray about it, not justbecause that's the Christian
answer. But to actually justname out loud or in writing,
while you're driving. Or, rightnow, when you're thinking about
it, like God, I do wantsomething more, and I don't know
where to start, I'm openingmyself up to you to help me find
(07:23):
a way to meet with one, or, youknow, I just I want to meet with
one and I might want to meetwith the right one for me. So
I'm admitting that to you thatdesire. So that's a great place
to start even doing that is kindof doing something. And then
asking someone who might knowspiritual directors would be the
(07:44):
next place. So a friend thatmeets with one a pastor, every
pastor has a sense of people whoare either like spiritual
directors, or
Andy Withrow (07:54):
would I know at least one spiritual director, do
you? Yeah, yeah.
Vanessa Caruso (07:57):
And then that spiritual director that you
know, can help find them, referthem to someone who might be a
good fit. So that's the best wayis just like talk to someone you
know, who meets with one orknows one. And then know that
contacting that spiritualdirector doesn't mean you have
to meet with them. There'salways a consultation, like a
phone call, or zoom, or a coffeemeeting, where you get to know
(08:20):
each other and the spiritualdirector will be happy to
connect you with someone whomight be a better fit, whether
that's a different gender, adifferent faith, tradition, or
denomination, someone who may beyou to know each other a bit.
And so it would be better forthe person to meet with someone
kind of outside your circle. Sothey can help refer you to that.
But there's also these networks.
So there's like the directors ofcolor network. There's the
(08:44):
transforming center in Chicagohas a great referral list. So on
my website, but I can post themto bear with me, there are links
to some of these networks, youknow, you can you can have like
an evangelical Network ofSpiritual directors. And then if
you're, especially if you'rewilling to meet over zoom, you
(09:04):
can definitely do your researchand see who seems like they
might be a good fit for me. Sothat's another way to go.
Andy Withrow (09:17):
Okay, so you got some links in our in our
definitely comment section ornotes section on the podcast to
get people started. Or to askaround word of mouth with a
pastor or someone you trust or afriend? Yeah. Great.
Vanessa Caruso (09:32):
Great. And then a few of the logistics. So yeah,
you'll definitely want like ameeting with the potential
director, whether that's overthe phone, zoom or in person.
And one thing to look for is tosee if they did any training and
spiritual direction if they ifthey carry that title. They
(09:54):
probably did. But I think that'simportant. And part of it is
that that means that they abideby a code of ethics, and
probably that they're in aregular form of supervision,
which means there's another pairof eyes on their ministry of
spiritual direction. So thoseare some of the professional
(10:14):
attributes that I that I findimportant. So that was wise.
Yeah, those are some, a fewthings to consider. And
Andy Withrow (10:23):
like, someone just opening up once a month and
telling people what to do, forexample,
Vanessa Caruso (10:29):
yeah. Like what you want to avoid that? Yeah,
unless, I don't know, I'd becurious to do that with you.
Andy Withrow (10:35):
I'll try it, we'll try it, we'll see what comes up.
Vanessa Caruso (10:38):
We should do an Ask me anything, or not. Okay,
so, but some of the like, nutsand bolts, the typical rhythm of
spiritual direction is once amonth, for an hour. There's
typically a covenant to sign. Alot of directors call them
covenants rather than contracts.
But it's a description of whatspiritual direction is about.
(11:00):
And it names some of the thetypical boundaries of spiritual
direction, the fee, theexpectations in terms of
communication, if you have atherapist, and then names the
mandated reporting, as a layminister, which spiritual
directors are. So that's onething to pay attention to, in
(11:22):
spiritual direction is thatthere is a lot of overlap with
therapy or counseling. But mostspiritual directors aren't
trained in that. So they'll wantto know if you do meet with one.
And if you don't meet with one,and if it, it seems like
they're, you might be benefitedfrom meeting with one, that's
something that they might askabout or bring up, in addition,
(11:44):
but it's not a replacement forcounseling. That all makes
sense, I'm guessing, a typicalfee. So some spiritual directors
don't charge which is reallybeautiful. Because it's
understood as a charism of thespirit, like being someone who
can accompany you to become yourtrue self in God and respond
(12:06):
with creative, courageousintegrity to God's call on your
life. So people are like, I'mnot charging money for that. And
so you definitely can findpeople who don't most, I would
say, have a sliding scale. Sobetween 40 and 80, I would think
is a typical amount per session.
(12:29):
Yeah, per session. So once amonth, yeah, and that would be
per hour. And then some justhave a standalone fee. But you
can always ask about whetherthere's a sliding scale and
leave it up to them to decidethat. Regular, what does a
typical session entail? I mighthave said this in the other one,
(12:50):
but it looks from the outside ofsomeone who's watching, it would
look like a conversation betweentwo people, for sure. Except
there is more space for silence.
So they're, you know, the directD sometimes will have their eyes
closed and kind of be goinginside to check in with God and
themselves about whatever it isthey're talking about. So
(13:14):
there's all these invitations topause in the session,
Andy Withrow (13:18):
when you're learning to listen. Yes to do
the practice that. Yeah.
Vanessa Caruso (13:24):
So it looks like a normal conversation except for
that contemplative part. Andthen the other main part is the
evocative questions. So insteadof like, should I go back to
school? Or should I stick withmy job? Instead of kind of
answering that or problemsolving that the director would
(13:46):
ask questions that help youexplore more? where God is
leading you in that area?
Andy Withrow (13:55):
Yeah. Seems like a dimension of it is just like a
little bit of in the best way,like a little bit of hand
holding as you pay attention toyour own questions, thoughts,
feelings about things? Because Ithink a lot of us lack
confidence to think that theymean anything. Yeah, definitely.
It's just the chaos of feelingsinside and contradictory desires
(14:18):
and stuff. But having someonecome alongside and give credence
like, no, no, pay attention tothat. What's that saying about
what you want or what you need?
Or what maybe what God'sspeaking to you or clarifying
things? Can I think, maybe inthe early stages of our
spiritual development be reallyhelpful.
Vanessa Caruso (14:34):
It's some it's totally that hand holding is
kind of a nice idea. You don'tactually hold hands that piece,
you know,
Andy Withrow (14:43):
I'm sure there's probably in the world of
spiritual direction. I betsomebody somewhere you're right,
Vanessa Caruso (14:48):
like on a bench maybe. But otherwise,
Andy Withrow (14:52):
probably not typical. Yeah. No, it's not.
Don't expect that.
Vanessa Caruso (14:55):
No, sometimes I say a lot in a spiritual
direction session. As adirector, you Sometimes they say
very little, because just aperson having space to hear
themselves, you know, like, Igenerally leave a good pause
after someone says something,just to see if there's more and
often, they'll keep talking.
They'll Yeah. And they'll keepgoing, you know. But sometimes
(15:19):
they do interrupt. Let's saythey're like, keep going in so
many directions. And it's like,well, we're going to cover a lot
of ground, but not necessarilygo deeper into this thing that
seemed like it was prettyimportant. Like you sounded like
you got a little bit choked up.
When you named that, can we goback to that? So that's the
(15:41):
directing part is like, I'mgoing to try to discern what,
what seems important to you andwhat you were,
Andy Withrow (15:49):
like, learning and take ourselves more seriously. I
love that out of this seemslike, yeah, kind of getting
started with this.
Vanessa Caruso (15:59):
Yeah. So the last thing would be, what do you
talk about? What do you bring?
Andy Withrow (16:05):
What do you talk about?
Vanessa Caruso (16:07):
So you talk about anything that's going on
in your life, I mean, you can bea little bit more direct about
it. And, you know, keep ajournal or a notepad, the week
before spiritual direction, acouple days before your first
spiritual direction,appointment. And just take notes
of some of the honest things youfind yourself thinking about
(16:29):
wondering about and feeling, youcould jot down dreams that you
have, as you have them, youknow, like, wow, that was a
weird dream, I don't know whatI'm gonna do with that. And
anything about your awareness ofGod in everyday life, or your
the sense of distance or absenceof God, or confusion about how
(16:54):
this actually a relationshipwith God actually plays out in
daily life, then you could justopen your notebook, if you want
to that way and just say, Okay,here's like, 10 things that
happened this week. And then youcould read them all. And then we
could say, I wonder which oneshould start with a
Andy Withrow (17:10):
spiritual director, a good spiritual
director, would assume that Godis always present. And so
there's no data piece that'sparticularly necessarily
irrelevant. Totally. I thinkthat's when when we're
individual and trying to makesense of our life. That's,
(17:31):
that's a harder assumption tohave often, yeah. But to have
someone come along and say, No,don't ignore that. Let's, you
know, you've got the whole thingwe were talking about in the
Beatitudes series that we'regoing through right now, how the
whole realm of emotions, notjust the happy positive
emotions, but you read throughthe Psalms, all the realm of
(17:54):
emotions, including sadness, andanger, and confusion, and just
constellation those are all datapoints are relevant to
understanding God's work in ourlife. And that's, I think, part
of the learning that can happen,right? In terms of, okay, this
(18:17):
negative thing that I want toassociate with having nothing to
do with my relationship with Godmight be telling me something
important about who God is, andGod's presence in my life.
Vanessa Caruso (18:29):
And yeah, I love that data point is such a
helpful idea. Anything can be adata point, it feels a bit like
a spoke of a wheel. Like ifGod's at the center of that
wheel, any of those spokes, youcan start with somebody
Andy Withrow (18:43):
who's just had a little bit of a critical
distance from you just to kindof be able to helpfully pull
some of those things out or drawattention to them. Where are you
gonna we kind of get stuck inour own thoughts or in our own
patterns and don't don't ascribeas much attention to it. That
can be really helpful.
Vanessa Caruso (19:01):
Totally. And as you said that I thought, if
spiritual direction feels a bitintimidating or too far away,
you can do this with a friend.
You know, you I remember havingan assignment, probably in
spiritual formation, where I hadto find someone where we did 20
minutes each. So I talked for 20minutes. Yeah. And they can't
(19:24):
say anything to me, except forListen, timer goes off. They
talk for 20 minutes. I can't sayanything to them or listen,
within 45 minutes. Both of youhave shared but you can't. You
can't respond, encourage, saylike, oh, it's not a big deal,
or I would have done the samething or, Wow, you really need
to do something about that.
(19:44):
Yeah. So that. That's basicallyit too, if you just wanted to go
that route.
Andy Withrow (19:49):
Yeah. No, I think that's important to say because
I think my my suspicion is alongwith professional counseling, in
spiritual direction, too. liketwo different disciplines, but
some overlap there is that theseare things that we're does were
friendships were designed for.
But in a lot of ways, ourfriendships are. So I don't know
(20:11):
impoverished and a lot of waysthat we have not become we've
failed at becoming goodlisteners to one another that
these have had to becomeprofessionalized. And, yeah. And
so, yeah, I think the vision ofGod's Kingdom is, really, this
(20:32):
is what spiritual friendship isall about is listening. Well,
drawing attention to what Godmight be speaking in one
another's lives. And so I thinkwe're just talking about
formalizing that a bit in acontext where that can be hard
to come by sometimes.
Vanessa Caruso (20:53):
And I love what you said about taking ourselves
seriously. It could be that yougo to spiritual direction for a
season, and you just kind oflearned to take yourself
seriously and God in your lifeseriously. And then you have
kind of confidence to do that ina DNA type group or small group
(21:15):
or with a group of friends orsomething like that. Yeah. Yeah.
That's all I had for thelogistics of spiritual
direction. Do you have any morequestions? No,
Andy Withrow (21:26):
that's good. So what's next
Vanessa Caruso (21:28):
for us?
Andy Withrow (21:29):
Oh, bear with any direction. Oh, that's it. That's
it. You got it?
Vanessa Caruso (21:32):
Yeah. I mean, I think those are the basics.
Yeah, that's
Andy Withrow (21:35):
part two. Well, we covered a lot of ground.
Vanessa Caruso (21:37):
Yeah, we did.
Okay.
Andy Withrow (21:39):
So okay, then what's next for bear with me?
Right. That's what we're talkingabout. That's
Vanessa Caruso (21:43):
what I was thinking.
Andy Withrow (21:45):
So Vanessa has been flirting with another
podcast. It's true. And I justfound out about it. Yep. The
other day. And so we're having ato find the relationship podcast
right here right now. In realtime. Yeah. What are we doing
next? Yeah. Is this the end? No,can
Vanessa Caruso (22:06):
we just take a break? Okay, it's
Andy Withrow (22:07):
gonna take a break. And we're gonna
reevaluate and take a couplemonths. Yeah, off. While you
kind of help with this otherpodcasts? Yeah. And then we're
gonna come back and chat and seeif we can continue on. So we're
giving you a warning. Don't waitby your podcast platform for a
couple of months. But come backand check. Yes. And we'll
(22:28):
communicate something. Yes, wewill. Even if it's like a short
two minute. Hey, just kidding.
We're gonna take another coupleof months. But we'll let you
know. We will, one of us will.
And, or maybe we'll be back in awhole new round of things. But
if you're, as always, if you gotsome ideas for you like to hear
Vanessa and Andy debate, like wedo or argue over some topic,
(22:51):
just send us send us a note.
Bear with me at table church.ca.
Or if you think we should juststop? Yeah, if you've had enough
and you feel like, let's end ona high note. Yeah. If this is
one, then just let us know. Justfinished quit while you're
Vanessa Caruso (23:06):
straight. Yeah.
Andy Withrow (23:08):
We'll take it.
We'll take the feedback. Yeah.
Great.
Vanessa Caruso (23:12):
And I, you know, at some point, I wanted to
reflect on what we learned,learned about doing this podcast
in a way that hopefully would behelpful for other people to
reflect on why do we do newthings? And what is it about
having a conversation, kind ofin real time about what's really
going on? In US and in ourlives, which is very spiritual
(23:34):
directory? what that's been likefor us, because it has been
really good. Yeah. So maybethat's coming.
Andy Withrow (23:42):
That's good. Yeah.
Oh, and because I anticipatepeople are probably wondering,
but the other podcast you'redoing, can you share?
Vanessa Caruso (23:47):
Yes, it's called Three Association. And it's
about spiritual direction. Soit's three of us supervisors
talking about different topicsfor about a half an hour, each
episode that are relevant forspiritual directors. So
Andy Withrow (24:03):
it's kind of to kind of resource existing
spiritual directors within thenetwork that you work with.
Yeah. So it's kind of a targetedfocus podcast. Yeah. And you're
gonna work on that becausethey're gonna batch a bunch
together over the next couplemonths. So that's gonna be your
focus. And then you might have abit of time for that. We'll come
back and, and reevaluate.
Exactly great. Okay, I'm not toothreatened by that.
Vanessa Caruso (24:22):
Okay. Yeah, I'm glad we talked about it. Okay,
but Andy, I wanted to know, Oh,right. But I have mine. So you
can think about it. I want toknow something that you're
excited about or where you'reexperiencing
Andy Withrow (24:35):
inspiration. Yeah.
Excited or inspired by you gofirst. Okay.
Vanessa Caruso (24:39):
Okay. So you can think about it. Okay. I already
told you about we're going toDisneyland. Right. This weekend.
Andy Withrow (24:47):
Lucky Disney. Yes.
Because what's the occasion?
Vanessa Caruso (24:51):
My birthday?
Wow. Yeah. But it's sort ofbecause I have a nine year old
you know, I wouldn't normally dothis.
Andy Withrow (24:57):
Stephen going now.
Vanessa Caruso (25:00):
Now, but that's what I'm actually excited about.
I had a friend say
Andy Withrow (25:04):
like the Did you ever watch Jim Gaffigan? Yeah,
medium. Yeah, it remember thisbit about? Some adults just go
to Disneyland by themselves. Idon't remember the old weirdos.
Vanessa Caruso (25:14):
Okay. Exactly.
That's what I think about it.
Like, I really think like, oh,I'm to something for Disneyland.
Yeah, I'm just going for thekid.
Andy Withrow (25:26):
I could see myself going as an adult by myself. You
can. But I, but it would beweird.
Vanessa Caruso (25:34):
But I so I have this group. Group, spiritual
direction group. Yeah. And oneof them. So I said, Oh, can we
move our group? Because I'mactually going to be in
Disneyland. Sorry, you know. Andso somebody wrote back and was
like, Well, I can't wait to, tohear how you find God at
Disneyland. Or like, how youlook forgot it, doesn't it? And
(25:55):
I thought, I love doing thoseguides. Now I want to do a guide
about how to find God atDisneyland. Okay, that's
actually what it involves MickeyMouse, I probably okay. So I'm
not going to do the guide beforeI go. Because I don't know.
Right. But I'm going to go onthis whole trip. Yes. I'm going
to be reflecting on your workexpense. Yeah. And don't you
think there are people in theworld who would like a
(26:18):
reflection guide about how tofind God at Disneyland? So
that's what's going to behappening in my head that has
made me so excited forDisneyland. Is, is God here? Is
that even possible? They made 27point 4 billion in revenue last
year.
Andy Withrow (26:33):
So as the land Yes, just as just the just not
Disney World? Disneyland?
Vanessa Caruso (26:37):
I don't know.
Doesn't matter. I don't know.
Because someone else said that alarge number Disney made 27
point 4 billion. Should shouldany any group have that much
money? No. So I feel conflictedabout that. Like, do I want to
be then the next $300? Yeah,that pours into something like
that. So it's a very conflictedplace. I mean, it's supposed to
(27:00):
be like a marketing, geniusmarketing situation in terms of
how much it makes you spend andwant to buy while you're there.
I don't like any of that. Likein terms of James Smith's
liturgies. I am very suspectabout the Disney liturgy and
what it's communicating and whatit's getting. But I want to see
(27:21):
if God's there, and I feel likeGod might be there. God was
there for you and Emmett. Andyour family.
Andy Withrow (27:28):
It was pretty special. Yes.
Vanessa Caruso (27:31):
So see.
Andy Withrow (27:33):
Okay, next. All right. Well, maybe we'll we will
have a debrief about thissometime in the future. Okay, on
this very podcast, God
Vanessa Caruso (27:40):
can be at Disneyland, maybe God can be
anywhere. That's also one of myquestions.
Andy Withrow (27:44):
We have a Somis would say, you know, If I ascend
to the heights of the heavens,or if I shall have dizzy or if I
find in Disneyland, behold,you're there. Yeah, included.
Okay, all right. Well, we'll beinterested to see the thing I
thought of as I really got intothis content of the player by
Thomas Merton, how cool isreally short it's like the last
(28:05):
thing he wrote before he beforehe died, but I'm only a few
chapters in but just reallytrying to you know, just immerse
myself slowly in every chapteris just a lot in there. I think
the even the opening line of, ofthe first chapter, the climate
(28:27):
in which monastic prayer flowersis that of the desert? Well,
where the calm comfort of men isabsent, where the secure
routines of Man City offer nosupport, and we're prayer must
be sustained by God in thepurity of faith. Wow. Yeah,
that's
Vanessa Caruso (28:43):
thick. That is like three sentences, maybe less
and not as thick. You're right.
Andy Withrow (28:48):
Yeah, it's three commas one sentence, right?
Vanessa Caruso (28:52):
I love the flower that blooms in the
desert.
Andy Withrow (28:56):
But it just, I mean, I think it reinforces what
we're just talking about, aboutthis. Maybe it's our cultural
the cultural assumption I'vegrown up with is associating
connection with God withpositive feelings kind of this
spiritual high and like not totake away from that because I
think that's one dimension ofit, but it's just this narrow
dimension. And that even thatthis person who's dedicated a
(29:21):
lot of his life to prayer issaying now the the right climate
is the is the one that we'reyou're dislocated, where
there's, you're disorientedwhere there isn't the things you
can rely on. And I think it mademe reflect on the spiritual
disciplines as what are thespiritual disciplines aren't
designed primarily to make youmore spiritual, but to reveal
(29:44):
your poverty. And that's whythey're so hard.
Vanessa Caruso (29:50):
This is all going through the tracks and
this
Andy Withrow (29:52):
is all going through the Beatitudes stuff
because the first one is blessedare the spiritually impoverished
because the Father is pleased togive the kingdom to such as
these, and so everything keepsgoing back to this. What is it?
What are the experience in lifeactually, that have socially
with these negative feelingslike, wow, the spiritual poverty
Wow, I'm not what I thought itcould be or what I thought I was
(30:14):
or I'm more broken than Ithought or I'm more dislocated
than I thought or whatever. Butthese are the very things that
reveal the need. That birth isprayer in us.
Vanessa Caruso (30:24):
Oh my gosh, excuse
Andy Withrow (30:26):
me, save me help me this the cry of the soul is
straight, which is what Mertontalks about a lot in his his
book. Wow. Anyway, I know. It'sa weird thing to be excited
about. It just sort of opened upanother dimension of spiritual
life for me. That's beenilluminating. That's all Wow.
Vanessa Caruso (30:45):
And yeah, I love that. We could do an episode on
that.
Andy Withrow (30:49):
After Disneyland.
Okay.
Vanessa Caruso (30:50):
Yeah, the two together. Wow. God is in the
desert and at Disney. Disneyokay, yes, it's
Andy Withrow (31:06):
been a pleasure.
Thank you. Thank you. Good wrapup a part two. And we'll check
in. Thanks, everybody. Hi,everyone.
Welcome to the bear with me podcast where we
aim to integrate belief andpractice in the Christian life
Andy Withrow (00:17):
All right, Ron.
Great. And it's 2023 It is.
Yeah. This is our first one of2023. Wow, it's
Vanessa Caruso (00:25):
towards the end of the month. Yeah. Cool.
Andy Withrow (00:29):
Yeah. All right.
We're back. Yeah, that mattersnow. And we're the we're gonna
finish the long anticipated longexpected, long awaited. I
picture people waiting by theirrelative podcast platforms for
this episode. Part two, right,part two of intro to spiritual
direction. Yes. FeaturingVanessa Caruso.
Vanessa Caruso (00:52):
Thank you for being so concerned about
bringing this to completion,Andy. I didn't imagine people
refreshing their podcast.
Andy Withrow (01:01):
Positive that's what's happening. Okay, well, we
very much relieved to hear it isdownloaded. Listen to this
episode. Right. So where are we?
You were listening to the partone on the way in this morning?
Yeah. So recap for us what,where we're at and what we need
to do next. Great.
Vanessa Caruso (01:18):
So part one about spiritual direction was an
intro to spiritual direction.
And this one, I wanted to make alittle bit more about the
logistics like how do I find aspiritual director? And what can
I expect in a spiritualdirection, relationship or
session in particular? So justto recap, spiritual direction,
the name is a little bitproblematic the term just
(01:43):
because it sounds like you'regoing to get direction, like,
what should I do? Should I goback to college? Or should I
quit my job?
Andy Withrow (01:53):
A lot of people want to know those kinds of
things they do might bedisappointed when they go to
Yeah, and they don't get thedirection. Don't
Vanessa Caruso (01:58):
get that advice, or the like, do this, right. So
not the most helpful term may,especially
Andy Withrow (02:05):
in our day and age where there's too many options.
Vanessa Caruso (02:08):
There's Andy, there's so many options, so many
good. Go to a spiritualdirector, they're not going to
tell me what to do now,unfortunately. Okay. So doing a
spiritual direction is helpingsomeone pay attention to God's
personal communication to them.
Andy Withrow (02:24):
So God can tell him a physical so let's go back
to college.
Vanessa Caruso (02:27):
Yes. And that's a spiritual action as far as
making that space in yourschedule. Okay. All right, to to
start putting the cluestogether, about how God is
leading you. What God's openingup for you. Why are you smiling?
Because
Andy Withrow (02:43):
I was picturing myself, like, being a new kind
of spiritual direction that justpeople come and pay. And I tell
them exactly what
Vanessa Caruso (02:50):
it would be amazing.
Andy Withrow (02:52):
Like people would some people would love that, oh,
that's what they need. You know,
Vanessa Caruso (02:55):
Andy, I actually think that would be a great,
there should be like, one weekof the month, where spiritual
directors are just like, eff it.
I'm just gonna, like, be ashonest as possible. This is
Andy Withrow (03:07):
what you need to do. Yes. Yeah. Okay. But that's
not that might be what peopleare wanting, yes, or what people
are needing,
Vanessa Caruso (03:16):
right. And actually, in long term, it's
really empowering to be able tofind that we have a wisdom
within us from the Holy Spirit,about what to do in our lives.
So it's like that teach a personto fish versus fishing for them
Andy Withrow (03:37):
personally, to LISTEN to the Spirit. Yeah. And
act. It needs
Vanessa Caruso (03:41):
space and time, though. That's something we're
short on as people right now.
You know, so that hour a month,it seems like a lot to like pay
to go talk to someone about yourrelationship with God. At the
end of the day, 60 minutes amonth, sometimes is the most
that you actually pause and openand, and admit and talk about
(04:04):
what's really going on. Sospiritual direction is, is about
moving from just talking aboutGod or thinking about God or all
those one days, one day, I'llhave a meditation practice one
day, I'll do this or that it'sit's really a space to
experience God and to reflect onour experience of God in
(04:30):
everyday life.
Andy Withrow (04:32):
So maybe if you're someone who has an idea of
engaging the spiritualdisciplines, for example, like I
want to be better at listeningto hearing recognizing, hearing
and listening to God's voice inmy life. Yeah, but maybe for
whatever reason, the bar ofbeginning that practice really
(04:53):
knowing how to start, but if youset aside time in your calendar
and you put a little bit ofmoney aside, you're putting
resources there, then you're atleast is guaranteeing one hour a
month? Yes. Or whatever therhythm is? Yeah. Okay, I'm gonna
do this, I'm gonna learn fromsomeone else. How to begin to do
some of these practices?
Vanessa Caruso (05:10):
Yeah, yeah.
Yeah, it's kind of baseline, if,if there's nothing else, there's
that, but the nature of it isthat, you know, you, you, you
think about what came up in thatspiritual direction session for
the rest of the month. I lovedoing special direction in
person because the drive to orthe walk to direction
appointment and the walker driveor bike home from that
(05:36):
appointment, that likeintegrating time. And that
reflection time is just sovaluable. So that's even better
than zoom, where you can like bedoing something and then a
minute later, you can log on.
And then the minute after youlog off, you like move on to
your email. So just settingaside that time, it's kind of
(05:56):
like an hour and a half inVictoria, to have an hour long
session. 15 minutes there, 15minutes back, that does a lot
for the rest of the week, whichcan change the month in terms of
your awareness of God in in yourtrue real, everyday life. Yeah.
So that's why people might wantto go is to reflect on their
(06:19):
experience of God in everydaylife.
Andy Withrow (06:22):
Okay, so you've recapped where we are. Now, I
think you wanted to talk about acouple of things, including, how
do you find? How do you go aboutbeginning to find a spiritual
director?
Vanessa Caruso (06:34):
Yeah, I have a sense that people are curious
about spiritual direction, butdon't know where to start. So
that if you're listening, andyou're interested, or you have a
friend who meets with aspiritual director, and you're
like, Hmm, you know, I didn'tused to feel a desire for that.
But for some reason, I'm kind ofdrawn to it. But I don't know
where to start. Here are somegood places to start. One would
(06:57):
be to pray about it, not justbecause that's the Christian
answer. But to actually justname out loud or in writing,
while you're driving. Or, rightnow, when you're thinking about
it, like God, I do wantsomething more, and I don't know
where to start, I'm openingmyself up to you to help me find
(07:23):
a way to meet with one, or, youknow, I just I want to meet with
one and I might want to meetwith the right one for me. So
I'm admitting that to you thatdesire. So that's a great place
to start even doing that is kindof doing something. And then
asking someone who might knowspiritual directors would be the
(07:44):
next place. So a friend thatmeets with one a pastor, every
pastor has a sense of people whoare either like spiritual
directors, or
Andy Withrow (07:54):
would I know at least one spiritual director, do
you? Yeah, yeah.
Vanessa Caruso (07:57):
And then that spiritual director that you
know, can help find them, referthem to someone who might be a
good fit. So that's the best wayis just like talk to someone you
know, who meets with one orknows one. And then know that
contacting that spiritualdirector doesn't mean you have
to meet with them. There'salways a consultation, like a
phone call, or zoom, or a coffeemeeting, where you get to know
(08:20):
each other and the spiritualdirector will be happy to
connect you with someone whomight be a better fit, whether
that's a different gender, adifferent faith, tradition, or
denomination, someone who may beyou to know each other a bit.
And so it would be better forthe person to meet with someone
kind of outside your circle. Sothey can help refer you to that.
But there's also these networks.
So there's like the directors ofcolor network. There's the
(08:44):
transforming center in Chicagohas a great referral list. So on
my website, but I can post themto bear with me, there are links
to some of these networks, youknow, you can you can have like
an evangelical Network ofSpiritual directors. And then if
you're, especially if you'rewilling to meet over zoom, you
(09:04):
can definitely do your researchand see who seems like they
might be a good fit for me. Sothat's another way to go.
Andy Withrow (09:17):
Okay, so you got some links in our in our
definitely comment section ornotes section on the podcast to
get people started. Or to askaround word of mouth with a
pastor or someone you trust or afriend? Yeah. Great.
Vanessa Caruso (09:32):
Great. And then a few of the logistics. So yeah,
you'll definitely want like ameeting with the potential
director, whether that's overthe phone, zoom or in person.
And one thing to look for is tosee if they did any training and
spiritual direction if they ifthey carry that title. They
(09:54):
probably did. But I think that'simportant. And part of it is
that that means that they abideby a code of ethics, and
probably that they're in aregular form of supervision,
which means there's another pairof eyes on their ministry of
spiritual direction. So thoseare some of the professional
(10:14):
attributes that I that I findimportant. So that was wise.
Yeah, those are some, a fewthings to consider. And
Andy Withrow (10:23):
like, someone just opening up once a month and
telling people what to do, forexample,
Vanessa Caruso (10:29):
yeah. Like what you want to avoid that? Yeah,
unless, I don't know, I'd becurious to do that with you.
Andy Withrow (10:35):
I'll try it, we'll try it, we'll see what comes up.
Vanessa Caruso (10:38):
We should do an Ask me anything, or not. Okay,
so, but some of the like, nutsand bolts, the typical rhythm of
spiritual direction is once amonth, for an hour. There's
typically a covenant to sign. Alot of directors call them
covenants rather than contracts.
But it's a description of whatspiritual direction is about.
(11:00):
And it names some of the thetypical boundaries of spiritual
direction, the fee, theexpectations in terms of
communication, if you have atherapist, and then names the
mandated reporting, as a layminister, which spiritual
directors are. So that's onething to pay attention to, in
(11:22):
spiritual direction is thatthere is a lot of overlap with
therapy or counseling. But mostspiritual directors aren't
trained in that. So they'll wantto know if you do meet with one.
And if you don't meet with one,and if it, it seems like
they're, you might be benefitedfrom meeting with one, that's
something that they might askabout or bring up, in addition,
(11:44):
but it's not a replacement forcounseling. That all makes
sense, I'm guessing, a typicalfee. So some spiritual directors
don't charge which is reallybeautiful. Because it's
understood as a charism of thespirit, like being someone who
can accompany you to become yourtrue self in God and respond
(12:06):
with creative, courageousintegrity to God's call on your
life. So people are like, I'mnot charging money for that. And
so you definitely can findpeople who don't most, I would
say, have a sliding scale. Sobetween 40 and 80, I would think
is a typical amount per session.
(12:29):
Yeah, per session. So once amonth, yeah, and that would be
per hour. And then some justhave a standalone fee. But you
can always ask about whetherthere's a sliding scale and
leave it up to them to decidethat. Regular, what does a
typical session entail? I mighthave said this in the other one,
(12:50):
but it looks from the outside ofsomeone who's watching, it would
look like a conversation betweentwo people, for sure. Except
there is more space for silence.
So they're, you know, the directD sometimes will have their eyes
closed and kind of be goinginside to check in with God and
themselves about whatever it isthey're talking about. So
(13:14):
there's all these invitations topause in the session,
Andy Withrow (13:18):
when you're learning to listen. Yes to do
the practice that. Yeah.
Vanessa Caruso (13:24):
So it looks like a normal conversation except for
that contemplative part. Andthen the other main part is the
evocative questions. So insteadof like, should I go back to
school? Or should I stick withmy job? Instead of kind of
answering that or problemsolving that the director would
(13:46):
ask questions that help youexplore more? where God is
leading you in that area?
Andy Withrow (13:55):
Yeah. Seems like a dimension of it is just like a
little bit of in the best way,like a little bit of hand
holding as you pay attention toyour own questions, thoughts,
feelings about things? Because Ithink a lot of us lack
confidence to think that theymean anything. Yeah, definitely.
It's just the chaos of feelingsinside and contradictory desires
(14:18):
and stuff. But having someonecome alongside and give credence
like, no, no, pay attention tothat. What's that saying about
what you want or what you need?
Or what maybe what God'sspeaking to you or clarifying
things? Can I think, maybe inthe early stages of our
spiritual development be reallyhelpful.
Vanessa Caruso (14:34):
It's some it's totally that hand holding is
kind of a nice idea. You don'tactually hold hands that piece,
you know,
Andy Withrow (14:43):
I'm sure there's probably in the world of
spiritual direction. I betsomebody somewhere you're right,
Vanessa Caruso (14:48):
like on a bench maybe. But otherwise,
Andy Withrow (14:52):
probably not typical. Yeah. No, it's not.
Don't expect that.
Vanessa Caruso (14:55):
No, sometimes I say a lot in a spiritual
direction session. As adirector, you Sometimes they say
very little, because just aperson having space to hear
themselves, you know, like, Igenerally leave a good pause
after someone says something,just to see if there's more and
often, they'll keep talking.
They'll Yeah. And they'll keepgoing, you know. But sometimes
(15:19):
they do interrupt. Let's saythey're like, keep going in so
many directions. And it's like,well, we're going to cover a lot
of ground, but not necessarilygo deeper into this thing that
seemed like it was prettyimportant. Like you sounded like
you got a little bit choked up.
When you named that, can we goback to that? So that's the
(15:41):
directing part is like, I'mgoing to try to discern what,
what seems important to you andwhat you were,
Andy Withrow (15:49):
like, learning and take ourselves more seriously. I
love that out of this seemslike, yeah, kind of getting
started with this.
Vanessa Caruso (15:59):
Yeah. So the last thing would be, what do you
talk about? What do you bring?
Andy Withrow (16:05):
What do you talk about?
Vanessa Caruso (16:07):
So you talk about anything that's going on
in your life, I mean, you can bea little bit more direct about
it. And, you know, keep ajournal or a notepad, the week
before spiritual direction, acouple days before your first
spiritual direction,appointment. And just take notes
of some of the honest things youfind yourself thinking about
(16:29):
wondering about and feeling, youcould jot down dreams that you
have, as you have them, youknow, like, wow, that was a
weird dream, I don't know whatI'm gonna do with that. And
anything about your awareness ofGod in everyday life, or your
the sense of distance or absenceof God, or confusion about how
(16:54):
this actually a relationshipwith God actually plays out in
daily life, then you could justopen your notebook, if you want
to that way and just say, Okay,here's like, 10 things that
happened this week. And then youcould read them all. And then we
could say, I wonder which oneshould start with a
Andy Withrow (17:10):
spiritual director, a good spiritual
director, would assume that Godis always present. And so
there's no data piece that'sparticularly necessarily
irrelevant. Totally. I thinkthat's when when we're
individual and trying to makesense of our life. That's,
(17:31):
that's a harder assumption tohave often, yeah. But to have
someone come along and say, No,don't ignore that. Let's, you
know, you've got the whole thingwe were talking about in the
Beatitudes series that we'regoing through right now, how the
whole realm of emotions, notjust the happy positive
emotions, but you read throughthe Psalms, all the realm of
(17:54):
emotions, including sadness, andanger, and confusion, and just
constellation those are all datapoints are relevant to
understanding God's work in ourlife. And that's, I think, part
of the learning that can happen,right? In terms of, okay, this
(18:17):
negative thing that I want toassociate with having nothing to
do with my relationship with Godmight be telling me something
important about who God is, andGod's presence in my life.
Vanessa Caruso (18:29):
And yeah, I love that data point is such a
helpful idea. Anything can be adata point, it feels a bit like
a spoke of a wheel. Like ifGod's at the center of that
wheel, any of those spokes, youcan start with somebody
Andy Withrow (18:43):
who's just had a little bit of a critical
distance from you just to kindof be able to helpfully pull
some of those things out or drawattention to them. Where are you
gonna we kind of get stuck inour own thoughts or in our own
patterns and don't don't ascribeas much attention to it. That
can be really helpful.
Vanessa Caruso (19:01):
Totally. And as you said that I thought, if
spiritual direction feels a bitintimidating or too far away,
you can do this with a friend.
You know, you I remember havingan assignment, probably in
spiritual formation, where I hadto find someone where we did 20
minutes each. So I talked for 20minutes. Yeah. And they can't
(19:24):
say anything to me, except forListen, timer goes off. They
talk for 20 minutes. I can't sayanything to them or listen,
within 45 minutes. Both of youhave shared but you can't. You
can't respond, encourage, saylike, oh, it's not a big deal,
or I would have done the samething or, Wow, you really need
to do something about that.
(19:44):
Yeah. So that. That's basicallyit too, if you just wanted to go
that route.
Andy Withrow (19:49):
Yeah. No, I think that's important to say because
I think my my suspicion is alongwith professional counseling, in
spiritual direction, too. liketwo different disciplines, but
some overlap there is that theseare things that we're does were
friendships were designed for.
But in a lot of ways, ourfriendships are. So I don't know
(20:11):
impoverished and a lot of waysthat we have not become we've
failed at becoming goodlisteners to one another that
these have had to becomeprofessionalized. And, yeah. And
so, yeah, I think the vision ofGod's Kingdom is, really, this
(20:32):
is what spiritual friendship isall about is listening. Well,
drawing attention to what Godmight be speaking in one
another's lives. And so I thinkwe're just talking about
formalizing that a bit in acontext where that can be hard
to come by sometimes.
Vanessa Caruso (20:53):
And I love what you said about taking ourselves
seriously. It could be that yougo to spiritual direction for a
season, and you just kind oflearned to take yourself
seriously and God in your lifeseriously. And then you have
kind of confidence to do that ina DNA type group or small group
(21:15):
or with a group of friends orsomething like that. Yeah. Yeah.
That's all I had for thelogistics of spiritual
direction. Do you have any morequestions? No,
Andy Withrow (21:26):
that's good. So what's next
Vanessa Caruso (21:28):
for us?
Andy Withrow (21:29):
Oh, bear with any direction. Oh, that's it. That's
it. You got it?
Vanessa Caruso (21:32):
Yeah. I mean, I think those are the basics.
Yeah, that's
Andy Withrow (21:35):
part two. Well, we covered a lot of ground.
Vanessa Caruso (21:37):
Yeah, we did.
Okay.
Andy Withrow (21:39):
So okay, then what's next for bear with me?
Right. That's what we're talkingabout. That's
Vanessa Caruso (21:43):
what I was thinking.
Andy Withrow (21:45):
So Vanessa has been flirting with another
podcast. It's true. And I justfound out about it. Yep. The
other day. And so we're having ato find the relationship podcast
right here right now. In realtime. Yeah. What are we doing
next? Yeah. Is this the end? No,can
Vanessa Caruso (22:06):
we just take a break? Okay, it's
Andy Withrow (22:07):
gonna take a break. And we're gonna
reevaluate and take a couplemonths. Yeah, off. While you
kind of help with this otherpodcasts? Yeah. And then we're
gonna come back and chat and seeif we can continue on. So we're
giving you a warning. Don't waitby your podcast platform for a
couple of months. But come backand check. Yes. And we'll
(22:28):
communicate something. Yes, wewill. Even if it's like a short
two minute. Hey, just kidding.
We're gonna take another coupleof months. But we'll let you
know. We will, one of us will.
And, or maybe we'll be back in awhole new round of things. But
if you're, as always, if you gotsome ideas for you like to hear
Vanessa and Andy debate, like wedo or argue over some topic,
(22:51):
just send us send us a note.
Bear with me at table church.ca.
Or if you think we should juststop? Yeah, if you've had enough
and you feel like, let's end ona high note. Yeah. If this is
one, then just let us know. Justfinished quit while you're
Vanessa Caruso (23:06):
straight. Yeah.
Andy Withrow (23:08):
We'll take it.
We'll take the feedback. Yeah.
Great.
Vanessa Caruso (23:12):
And I, you know, at some point, I wanted to
reflect on what we learned,learned about doing this podcast
in a way that hopefully would behelpful for other people to
reflect on why do we do newthings? And what is it about
having a conversation, kind ofin real time about what's really
going on? In US and in ourlives, which is very spiritual
(23:34):
directory? what that's been likefor us, because it has been
really good. Yeah. So maybethat's coming.
Andy Withrow (23:42):
That's good. Yeah.
Oh, and because I anticipatepeople are probably wondering,
but the other podcast you'redoing, can you share?
Vanessa Caruso (23:47):
Yes, it's called Three Association. And it's
about spiritual direction. Soit's three of us supervisors
talking about different topicsfor about a half an hour, each
episode that are relevant forspiritual directors. So
Andy Withrow (24:03):
it's kind of to kind of resource existing
spiritual directors within thenetwork that you work with.
Yeah. So it's kind of a targetedfocus podcast. Yeah. And you're
gonna work on that becausethey're gonna batch a bunch
together over the next couplemonths. So that's gonna be your
focus. And then you might have abit of time for that. We'll come
back and, and reevaluate.
Exactly great. Okay, I'm not toothreatened by that.
Vanessa Caruso (24:22):
Okay. Yeah, I'm glad we talked about it. Okay,
but Andy, I wanted to know, Oh,right. But I have mine. So you
can think about it. I want toknow something that you're
excited about or where you'reexperiencing
Andy Withrow (24:35):
inspiration. Yeah.
Excited or inspired by you gofirst. Okay.
Vanessa Caruso (24:39):
Okay. So you can think about it. Okay. I already
told you about we're going toDisneyland. Right. This weekend.
Andy Withrow (24:47):
Lucky Disney. Yes.
Because what's the occasion?
Vanessa Caruso (24:51):
My birthday?
Wow. Yeah. But it's sort ofbecause I have a nine year old
you know, I wouldn't normally dothis.
Andy Withrow (24:57):
Stephen going now.
Vanessa Caruso (25:00):
Now, but that's what I'm actually excited about.
I had a friend say
Andy Withrow (25:04):
like the Did you ever watch Jim Gaffigan? Yeah,
medium. Yeah, it remember thisbit about? Some adults just go
to Disneyland by themselves. Idon't remember the old weirdos.
Vanessa Caruso (25:14):
Okay. Exactly.
That's what I think about it.
Like, I really think like, oh,I'm to something for Disneyland.
Yeah, I'm just going for thekid.
Andy Withrow (25:26):
I could see myself going as an adult by myself. You
can. But I, but it would beweird.
Vanessa Caruso (25:34):
But I so I have this group. Group, spiritual
direction group. Yeah. And oneof them. So I said, Oh, can we
move our group? Because I'mactually going to be in
Disneyland. Sorry, you know. Andso somebody wrote back and was
like, Well, I can't wait to, tohear how you find God at
Disneyland. Or like, how youlook forgot it, doesn't it? And
(25:55):
I thought, I love doing thoseguides. Now I want to do a guide
about how to find God atDisneyland. Okay, that's
actually what it involves MickeyMouse, I probably okay. So I'm
not going to do the guide beforeI go. Because I don't know.
Right. But I'm going to go onthis whole trip. Yes. I'm going
to be reflecting on your workexpense. Yeah. And don't you
think there are people in theworld who would like a
(26:18):
reflection guide about how tofind God at Disneyland? So
that's what's going to behappening in my head that has
made me so excited forDisneyland. Is, is God here? Is
that even possible? They made 27point 4 billion in revenue last
year.
Andy Withrow (26:33):
So as the land Yes, just as just the just not
Disney World? Disneyland?
Vanessa Caruso (26:37):
I don't know.
Doesn't matter. I don't know.
Because someone else said that alarge number Disney made 27
point 4 billion. Should shouldany any group have that much
money? No. So I feel conflictedabout that. Like, do I want to
be then the next $300? Yeah,that pours into something like
that. So it's a very conflictedplace. I mean, it's supposed to
(27:00):
be like a marketing, geniusmarketing situation in terms of
how much it makes you spend andwant to buy while you're there.
I don't like any of that. Likein terms of James Smith's
liturgies. I am very suspectabout the Disney liturgy and
what it's communicating and whatit's getting. But I want to see
(27:21):
if God's there, and I feel likeGod might be there. God was
there for you and Emmett. Andyour family.
Andy Withrow (27:28):
It was pretty special. Yes.
Vanessa Caruso (27:31):
So see.
Andy Withrow (27:33):
Okay, next. All right. Well, maybe we'll we will
have a debrief about thissometime in the future. Okay, on
this very podcast, God
Vanessa Caruso (27:40):
can be at Disneyland, maybe God can be
anywhere. That's also one of myquestions.
Andy Withrow (27:44):
We have a Somis would say, you know, If I ascend
to the heights of the heavens,or if I shall have dizzy or if I
find in Disneyland, behold,you're there. Yeah, included.
Okay, all right. Well, we'll beinterested to see the thing I
thought of as I really got intothis content of the player by
Thomas Merton, how cool isreally short it's like the last
(28:05):
thing he wrote before he beforehe died, but I'm only a few
chapters in but just reallytrying to you know, just immerse
myself slowly in every chapteris just a lot in there. I think
the even the opening line of, ofthe first chapter, the climate
(28:27):
in which monastic prayer flowersis that of the desert? Well,
where the calm comfort of men isabsent, where the secure
routines of Man City offer nosupport, and we're prayer must
be sustained by God in thepurity of faith. Wow. Yeah,
that's
Vanessa Caruso (28:43):
thick. That is like three sentences, maybe less
and not as thick. You're right.
Andy Withrow (28:48):
Yeah, it's three commas one sentence, right?
Vanessa Caruso (28:52):
I love the flower that blooms in the
desert.
Andy Withrow (28:56):
But it just, I mean, I think it reinforces what
we're just talking about, aboutthis. Maybe it's our cultural
the cultural assumption I'vegrown up with is associating
connection with God withpositive feelings kind of this
spiritual high and like not totake away from that because I
think that's one dimension ofit, but it's just this narrow
dimension. And that even thatthis person who's dedicated a
(29:21):
lot of his life to prayer issaying now the the right climate
is the is the one that we'reyou're dislocated, where
there's, you're disorientedwhere there isn't the things you
can rely on. And I think it mademe reflect on the spiritual
disciplines as what are thespiritual disciplines aren't
designed primarily to make youmore spiritual, but to reveal
(29:44):
your poverty. And that's whythey're so hard.
Vanessa Caruso (29:50):
This is all going through the tracks and
this
Andy Withrow (29:52):
is all going through the Beatitudes stuff
because the first one is blessedare the spiritually impoverished
because the Father is pleased togive the kingdom to such as
these, and so everything keepsgoing back to this. What is it?
What are the experience in lifeactually, that have socially
with these negative feelingslike, wow, the spiritual poverty
Wow, I'm not what I thought itcould be or what I thought I was
(30:14):
or I'm more broken than Ithought or I'm more dislocated
than I thought or whatever. Butthese are the very things that
reveal the need. That birth isprayer in us.
Vanessa Caruso (30:24):
Oh my gosh, excuse
Andy Withrow (30:26):
me, save me help me this the cry of the soul is
straight, which is what Mertontalks about a lot in his his
book. Wow. Anyway, I know. It'sa weird thing to be excited
about. It just sort of opened upanother dimension of spiritual
life for me. That's beenilluminating. That's all Wow.
Vanessa Caruso (30:45):
And yeah, I love that. We could do an episode on
that.
Andy Withrow (30:49):
After Disneyland.
Okay.
Vanessa Caruso (30:50):
Yeah, the two together. Wow. God is in the
desert and at Disney. Disneyokay, yes, it's
Andy Withrow (31:06):
been a pleasure.
Thank you. Thank you. Good wrapup a part two. And we'll check
in. Thanks, everybody. Hi,everyone.
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