Beyond the Feed Bag: Dr. Masa Williams from Purina Mills on Equine Nutrition Science

Ever wonder what's really happening inside your horse's digestive system? Dr. Masa Williams, PhD equine nutritionist at Purina, takes us on a fascinating journey through the cutting-edge science behind modern horse nutrition in this information-packed episode.

With a background in rodeo and growing up on a multi-species farm, Dr. Williams brings both practical experience and scientific expertise to the table. She breaks down the critical difference between prebiotics and probiotics, explaining how Purina's new Systemic supplement containing Bacillus coagulans GBI 30 underwent ten years of research to ensure it actually survives the journey through the horse's digestive tract—unlike many probiotics on the market. This specialized probiotic has shown remarkable results in reducing inflammation markers and improving digestive health.

The conversation explores Purina's innovative approach to common equine health challenges. We learn about Outlast, a unique calcium-magnesium honeycomb complex derived from seaweed that buffers stomach acid within minutes and protects against ulcers for up to four hours—perfect for performance horses or during stressful situations like trailering. Dr. Williams also guides us through feeding options for developing foals, explaining how different growth feeds (Impact Mare in Foal, Omolene 300, and Ultium Growth) match various genetic predispositions and growth rates.

For senior horse owners, you'll discover why Equine Senior has become such a trusted complete feed, containing both nutrients and forage in a form that dissolves quickly to prevent choking in older horses with dental issues. The ActiveAge technology included in senior feeds enhances immune function and reduces inflammatory markers, with research showing improved vaccine response in aging horses.

Perhaps most exciting is the glimpse into the future of equine nutrition through microbiome science. Purina's Microbiome Quotient platform allows owners to submit fecal samples for analysis, receiving personalized feeding recommendations based on their horse's unique gut bacterial profile. Dr. Williams explains how diet dramatically influences the microbial ecosystem in the hindgut, which in turn affects everything from nutrient absorption to immune function.

Connect with Dr. Williams and the Purina team through your local dealer or veterinarian to tap into their wealth of nutrition knowledge and discover research-backed solutions for your horse's specific needs.

Episode Transcript

Speaker 2 (00:29):
Thank you.

Speaker 1 (00:31):
All right.
Dr Mesa Williams, thanks forjoining us today.
We just had a great breakfastand discussion with the team
here, and now you're gracious togive us your time to sit down
for a podcast.
So thank you very much forcoming.

Speaker 2 (00:44):
I'm glad to be here.
Travis, Thanks for having me.

Speaker 1 (00:46):
So if you want to give us a little bit of your
background you're a PhDnutritionist and you're working
for Purina right now If you wantto just kind of tell us what
you've done in your career andhow you landed at Purina, that
would be great.

Speaker 2 (00:59):
Yeah, so I grew up in north central Arkansas on a
multi-species farm cattle, goats, chickens, horses, you name it.
We kind of had it.
And that's kind of where mylove for animal science started.
And I grew up rodeoing, ridinghorses, all things rodeo, all

(01:20):
things horses.
And I thought that that's whatI wanted to do with my life,
that I was gonna, you know, ridehorses the rest of my life.
And uh, ended up getting ascholarship to the University of
Arkansas and went for animalscience, because that's where my
, my passion was at.
And and while I was there, uh,I took a class called feeds and
feeding and the guy that taughtthe class was really an

(01:44):
interesting guy.
He was a small ruminantnutritionist and he asked me one
day after class hey, would yoube interested in doing some
research?
I'm like, well, I don't evenknow what research is.
And I ended up doing someundergraduate research and that
led me to talking with him aboutgoing to graduate school.
He said, hey, have you everconsidered going to graduate

(02:06):
school?
And I'm like I don't reallyeven know what graduate school
is.
Can you tell me more about it?
And so I ended up going to theUniversity of Kentucky, actually
in ruminant nutrition for mymaster's and learned a whole lot
while I was there and thenended up working for Ohio, the
Ohio State University, and whileI was there, got my PhD in

(02:31):
equine nutrition, and not just,you know, not just looking at at
parts and pieces, but buttrying to do some applied
nutrition research, which iskind of where my passion lies.
And then, after finishing up atthe Ohio State, I moved back to

(02:53):
Arkansas with my husband and mydaughter and ended up getting
this position with Purina, andI've been with Purina a little
over two years.

Speaker 1 (03:02):
So you were teaching at the Ohio State Taught at the
Ohio State.

Speaker 2 (03:04):
I taught at the Ohio State.
Yes, Okay.

Speaker 1 (03:07):
How has that helped you?
Because this morning youbasically came in and taught us
about all these Purina products.
How has that helped you withthe Purina position?

Speaker 2 (03:16):
Yeah, so part of my appointment is giving talks to
horse owners and also talkingwith veterinarians, and we have
an equine professionalhorseman's conference that we do
twice a year at the researchfarm for Purina and we also have

(03:38):
an annual veterinary conferencethat we do.
And having to teach studentsabout nutrition, equine feeds
and feeding specifically rightafter lunch for an hour and a
half, uh gets you really excitedabout nutrition and you know
you, you learn some tools toexcite other people about

(03:59):
nutrition and and keep thosepeople awake.
And I love college students, uh, but it's tough on a Friday
after they've been out Thursdaynight for sure.

Speaker 1 (04:09):
Yeah, thirsty Thursdays, yes.
And then when David Williams,our Purina guy, told us you were
coming, I just did a quickGoogle search and one of the
first things that popped up wasthehorsecom.
I send horse owners there a lotbecause the articles are all
reviewed.
It's written by people thatknow what they're doing and what
they're talking about.
So how long have you beenwriting and answering questions

(04:31):
on thehorsecom?

Speaker 2 (04:32):
So thehorsecom has a great relationship with Purina
and all of the PhDs on my teamwrite articles for them and I
have been involved with thatsince joining the Purina team.
Oh, okay, so that's a recent,yes, recent thing.
Well, thank, you for all that,because I was reading the
magnesium one the other day andthat was that couldn't have been

(04:52):
easy to yeah, yeah yeah, andand sometimes you get you get
into to spots that you're like,okay, I don't, I'm not the the
expert on this, and so then youdo a deep dive through the
literature and you learn so muchLike in my job, I learn every
day from someone or something,and that's one of the things

(05:13):
that I love the most about thisposition.

Speaker 1 (05:15):
Yeah, same with my profession, Especially when our
farrier comes here.
I learn so much from him and,like you guys stopping by,
there's never-ending knowledgeand stuff is changing so fast
yes and a lot of that is thanksto purina.
As far as the nutrition andsupplements go, one of your
newest ones is the systemic,which is a prebiotic it's.

(05:39):
It's a probiotic probiotic youwant to?
Obviously I'm confused on that.
You want to explain thedifference between pre or pro or
post or whatever?

Speaker 2 (05:46):
yeah, the nomenclature there for a minute
yeah, so it is pretty confusingbecause it's so close and
basically a prebiotic is, umsomething that microbes utilize
to grow, and so prebiotics, umwe we like to think about.
If we have some, some microbesthat are beneficial to the horse

(06:09):
and we want to encourage thatgrowth of already established
microbes in the in the gut, uh,then that's, that's what they
are.
So think about, like pectin thatyou would find in beet pulp or
soy holes or alfalfa, um areprebiotics for some of the
microbes that produce goodvolatile fatty acids for that

(06:30):
horse.
A probiotic is actually a livemicroorganism, so it is the
microbe itself, and probioticsare interesting because
something that's alive when wehave it, it still has to be
utilized in the horse, and so wewant to make sure that it's

(06:52):
alive when it gets to the placethat we need it to work, and so
probiotics tend to be a littletougher to you know, know, deal
with or utilize.
Because if it's alive when wefeed it to the horse, is it
alive after the gastric stomach?
Is it alive in the, in the gitract, and where is it working

(07:12):
out?
In the gi tract?
Is it necessarily establishingor not in the gi tract?
Uh, so all of those questionsare important when we think
about probiotics so a a lot ofthe probiotics.

Speaker 1 (07:24):
Even though the label says this is in there, a lot of
them probably get destroyed bythe stomach acid.
Is that correct?

Speaker 2 (07:31):
Yeah, that's exactly right.
Travis and supplements arestrange in that they're not as
regulated as horse feed, and soclaims can be made a little bit
willy nilly on on what is reallyhappening.
The cool thing about ourprobiotic, our systemic, is that

(07:52):
we put the research in.
We said, okay, is this alivethrough the pelleting process?
And so we wanted to feed ourprobiotic as a pellet because
it's easy to do so.
Like it's, it's a small amountthat we can dump on top of their
meal and they're going toconsume it where a powder is a
little bit tougher or a liquidis even tougher than that

(08:14):
sometimes, to ensure consumption.
And so we did the research thatlooked at whether our probiotics
survived the pelleting process,which takes heat and pressure,
looked at whether our probioticssurvived the pelleting process,
which takes heat and pressure.
And then we did the research tolook to see if our probiotics
survived the gauntlet of thegastric stomach.
So, um, um, you know, looked atthat to make sure that it was.

(08:36):
It was alive and survived that,and it does.
And so that's.
You know, that's the truedefinition of a probiotic is a
live microorganism that isbenefiting the host in some way.

Speaker 1 (08:47):
And I read it was how long was the research?
It was like 10 years orsomething crazy like that right.

Speaker 2 (08:52):
Yeah.
So Purina has put a lot offaith and time and money into
this project.
That started really and trulyabout 10 years ago where a bunch
of really smart people acrossspecies, a bunch of PhDs, got
together and said, hey, where'sthe future of nutrition heading?

(09:12):
And everybody kind of came tothe consensus that it was
through the microbiome.
And we know that because welook at human research or
research in other animals and wesee that that's kind of the
frontier right now as far far asnutrition goes.
So Purina invested in anemerging technology center.
They put a lot of time andmoney into hiring the right

(09:35):
scientists and putting the rightequipment in place where we
could actually test some of this, this research out, to know yes
or no, this works or thisdoesn't.

Speaker 1 (09:47):
Yeah, and there's one active ingredient in there,
which is bacillus coagulans, andthen there's a number after it.

Speaker 2 (09:53):
GBI 30.
Yeah, how many times have yousaid that?
A bunch, a whole bunch.

Speaker 1 (09:57):
Is that just a subclass of the bacillus?

Speaker 2 (10:02):
Yes, that's exactly what it is, and so you know.
Another tough thing aboutprobiotic research is that
microorganisms there's a bunchof them, and so how do you even
begin to identify that?
And kind of back to thatresearch, that previous research

(10:22):
that started 10 years ago.
One of the things that they didis they started searching
through papers and catalogingthose papers and looking at
different species and howprobiotics have worked in
different species and what theoutcomes were.
And we identified threedifferent things that we might
want to look at, and that isprobiotics that helped with

(10:47):
digestibility, which is how wetraditionally think of
probiotics, or probiotics thatmaybe helps with disease state
or tamping down disease.
And the last one was probioticsthat affected inflammation,
because we see inflammationhappening every day in horses If

(11:08):
you're using them, riding them,so through exercise or through
stress, like if we put them on atrailer, or even stress that
the gastrointestinal tract mightgo through when we feed them or
we have feed changes, etc mightgo through when we feed them or
we have feed changes, et cetera.
And so we decided that we weregoing to focus on inflammation

(11:32):
first, and so that's where wesaid, okay, let's go back to
that library, let's see whattype of microbes have aided in
tamping down inflammation inother species, and so that kind
of narrowed and filtered outseveral of those microbes.
And then from there we, youknow, did some more digging into

(11:56):
the data and identified a fewthat we wanted to try, and so we
got it down to the bacilluscoagulans you know genus and
species and then from there welooked at different strains.
And it's funny because thefirst research that we did
actually was on looking atinflammation before we did any

(12:18):
of the research, looking at, hey, did this survive?
Or the pelleting process or youknow, through the gastric
stomach, because we needed toknow, does it even work?
So awesome, if you have aprobiotic that's tough, that you
can feed an animal and it willsurvive, but what's it doing in
the animal?
So it was a long process.

Speaker 1 (12:40):
Yeah, and then the Mark you were talking about
inflammation.
You were looking at SAA.
Yeah, and then the Mark youwere talking about inflammation,
you were looking at SAA,prostaglandin and IL-6.
Is that kind of the main ones?

Speaker 2 (12:53):
Yeah, yeah, we chose those because they're
non-specific markers ofinflammation that we could get
out of the blood, and those arethe ones we looked at.

Speaker 1 (12:57):
Yeah, anybody that's been here with a horse, that's
other than routine.
We run a lot of SAAs in clinic,which is serum amyloid, a acute
phase protein made by the liver.
I think it's real similar tolike the c-reactive protein in
people, but the other one, the,the prostaglandin and the il-6,
um, we don't really look atthose, but how did you guys kind

(13:20):
of measure those?
Because some of it was umspecific to the intestine, or we
use that kind of measure thosebecause some of it was specific
to the intestine, or we use thatkind of as a guide for
intestinal inflammation too.

Speaker 2 (13:32):
We got those out of the blood as well, so they were
markers that we could get out ofthe blood as well.
I think maybe what you'rereferring to is that we did two
different types of studies thatinvestigated those, um, those
inflammatory markers uh, and sowe we did a, an exercise trial

(13:55):
uh, where we took horses novelto exercise and we uh exercise
the heck out of them.
So we walk uh, walk trot um, um, walk trot, walk trot for two
hours uh, when we started this,this trial, and then the second
part of uh, the, you know, theinvestigation, was then to to

(14:16):
induce we actually induced uhulcers in these horses, um,
using a, a, a scientificprotocol, and then we measured
those inflammation markers aswell and from there we then
un-gave them ulcers withoutusing any other type of

(14:39):
medication.
So we did it all based on howwe managed those horses and how
we fed them, and then how wemanaged them and how we fed them
to resolve those ulcers, and sowe used the blood measurement.

Speaker 1 (14:55):
Okay, and let's talk about fecal consistency with
this stuff, because I toldsomebody the other day with a
colic the amount of time wespend waiting on poop and
looking at poop.
If somebody wasn't familiarwith horses they'd probably
think we're crazy, but this didhelp fecal consistency when fed
properly, correct.

Speaker 2 (15:15):
Yeah.
So in the study where we inducedulcers in these horses, we
weren't looking at if systemiccould resolve ulcers, we were
trying to inflame the gut and afew things that we did aside
from measure those inflammatorymarkers is we also blinded the

(15:38):
farm crew to what the treatmentswere.
And then we had them.
We trained them to look at poopscores, which nutrition ends up
being looking at a lot of whatcomes out, not just what goes in
.
And so they were trained tothese poop scores, looking at

(15:59):
what normal poop looks like, drypoop, looks like really runny
poop and kind of everything inbetween.
And again, they were blinded tothe treatment so they didn't
know.
And what we found is that thehorses that were on the systemic
product versus those horsesthat were not, even though all
fecal consistency scores werelowered during the time that

(16:23):
they had ulcers, since thesescores were lowered during the
time that they had ulcers, thosethat were on the systemic
treatment had higher fecalscores, so they didn't get as
runny, more diarrhea-y type ofpoop than the horses that were
on control treatment.

Speaker 1 (16:41):
Do you think that had to do with the
anti-inflammatory properties ofthis in the intestine, or do we
know yet?

Speaker 2 (16:46):
Yeah, I think there's a lot we still need to
elucidate, to know why, butdefinitely consider that you
know a protective property ofthe systemic bacillus coagulans.
Gbi 30 microbe.

Speaker 1 (17:03):
I think, talking about stomach ulcers, you guys
also have a great product calledOutlast, which is a supplement.
We recommend it almost everyhorse, especially the
performance horses.
You want to talk a little bitabout that and what's in it and
why that specific ingredient isso different than other similar

(17:26):
products yeah, so outlast hasprobably been our uh most
successful supplement because itjust has has changed horses.

Speaker 2 (17:37):
Uh, it's, it's basically, uh, this little
calcium magnesium honeycombcomplex derived from seaweed and
, uh, because of that honeycombstructure, it, the surface area
of that molecule is increased.
And so when we, when we did theresearch and again you know, we

(17:57):
looked at several differenttypes of of, um, uh, stomach
buffering ingredients, but whenwe, when we found out, last,
what we saw was that it bufferedquicker and for longer than
other other similar types ofproducts and it's because of

(18:22):
that honeycomb structure that itthat it does so.
And again, purina, um, you know, we, we have this proprietary
product, we, we have this, thisuh agreement with Kalman that
that we get to use it and and wefeel very lucky because it it's
really changed horses lives,it's really helped a lot.

Speaker 1 (18:45):
So not all calcium is the same not all calcium is the
same.
That's right, yeah, and I hadno idea until you guys came out
with us and showed us theelectron microscope images of
these calcium and it is.
It looks like honeycomb yes howquick does it buffer after you
feed it?
And by buffer we meandecreasing the acidity, correct?

Speaker 2 (19:04):
correct.
Yeah, we're actually, yes,decreasing the acidity, so we're
making the pH rise in thegastric stomach and so we
consider a pH of four to bebuffered.
And so when you feed outlast,you're going to see differences

(19:25):
in the pH of the gastric stomachin minutes.
And so what I do is I recommendfor folks hey, while you're
saddling, give outlast.
Give that outlast while you'resaddling up, and by the time you
go to ride, then it's workingfor you.
So it works very quickly andit's going to buffer.
A full serving is going tobuffer about four hours.

(19:46):
And again, when we say buffer,we mean maintain that pH of four
.

Speaker 1 (19:51):
Okay, how does it compare to alfalfa?
Because alfalfa will buffer thestomach too and it's got a lot
of calcium.
But how is Outlast differentthan just giving some alfalfa
pellets or alfalfa hay?

Speaker 2 (20:02):
Yeah, that's a great question.
You know, alfalfa has quite abit of calcium in it, but it's
going to buffer quicker and it'sgoing to buffer longer,
definitely than than alfalfa.
And and we didn't just look, we, we did look at alfalfa and
compared it to alfalfa.
We also compared it to severalof the other products that are
on the market and saw the samething that it buffers faster and

(20:26):
it buffers longer.

Speaker 1 (20:27):
Um, in, in every situation because there's other
products now that have maybecopied you guys, but yours
probably buffers longer, yeah,and quicker yes, and so again,
that's a proprietary productthat um other other companies do
not have the rights to at thistime right, and I'm assuming you
guys put more research in tothis.

(20:48):
I've read something like 10,000feedings.

Speaker 2 (20:52):
Yes, there's countless hours in Outlast
research and countless feedingsand trials that have been run on
this particular product andagain it's been incredibly
successful and folks have seengreat results by feeding it.
And we recommend feeding thisbefore you ride, especially if

(21:17):
you feed Purina products.
There's a lot of products thathave Outlast in it and as long
as you're feeding around thatfour pounds, you're getting a
full serving of Outlast.
But if you ride outside of thatfour-hour window, we want you
to give Outlast again, and thenother times that people don't
think about giving Outlast isbefore you trailer.
So you fed them that morning.

(21:39):
You're going to go to the showthat evening or that afternoon.
Put it, give it to them beforeyou, before you get on the
trailer, and then, depending onhow long that horse stands at
the trailer, if you're showingall day, you're showing in the
evening.
Uh, don't be afraid to givethem another dose of it.
It's literally just that thatuh calmin ingredient and some

(22:02):
alfalfa as a carrier.

Speaker 1 (22:04):
so it's a very, very simple supplement, but it it
definitely works and the thepellet you can top dress and you
can feed it just like snacks.
My experience most horses willjust just eat it.
Some of the colics here that wekeep off have to keep off
forage.
We'll give them a little bit ofthat and if they have an
appetite they they usually eatit pretty good and you also have

(22:25):
out outlast treats yes, yeah,the supplement.

Speaker 2 (22:30):
Again, it's just a little.
It looks like a little alfalfapellet and horses readily eat it
.
It's very palatable.
Uh, you can also give it in theform of treats.
Uh, it's, you know it's.
It's more cost-effective togive the supplement, uh, but,
but, uh, yeah, depending on howyour, your horse is or or what
you like to do, uh, you candefinitely give the treats as

(22:50):
well.
Yeah, we have a lot of.

Speaker 1 (22:52):
We work on a lot of sport horses and performance
horses, but we also have, withthe Shawnee National Forest, in
our backyard, a lot of trailriders.
And some of these trail ridersI mean they may be these little
old ladies, but they're tough asnails.
They'll go out and ride all day.
So that may mean their horsegets breakfast, but it may be
dinner time before they comeback.
So we'll recommend the outlasttreats or little ziploc baggies

(23:13):
that they can feed with them too, because once that stomach gets
empty and that acid rises up tothat sensitive part of the
stomach, it's important thatit's buffered and we get the the
ph high or the acidity low samething.
That way we're not burningholes in that squamous mucosa
and getting getting ulcers.
So that's been kind of a gamechanger for the people that are
following.
Following that, I think they'venoticed a big attitude change

(23:36):
in their horses not as irritableand stuff like that.
We've had really good luck withit yeah, that's awesome, I love
that yeah, and then anotherquestion we get a lot in fact
autumn asked you this thismorning.
Is we get a lot in fact Autumnasked you this this morning is
we've got a lot of babies on theground now.
They're getting old enough,maybe close to weaning.
Can we talk a little bit aboutyour feeds for mares and foals

(23:58):
and kind of controlling thegrowth rate in these guys,
because we know that's prettyimportant for their bone
development?

Speaker 2 (24:07):
Yeah, how we feed those babies are important, and
really to kind of back up alittle bit Travis and talk about
how we feed that mare isimportant.
So that third trimester, whenthat foal is literally going
from looking like the shape of alittle horse to elongating
those bones and putting onmuscle and hide and hair and

(24:29):
really growing in that thirdtrimester, that's really where
we we need to start.
That's when we're feeding thefoal more so than the mare at
that time and we're setting thatmare up for success when she
goes to produce milk for thatfoal when it's on the outside.
So we want to start, definitelywant to start feeding that
growth feed in that in that lasttrimester and feed that full.

(24:50):
And we have three differentgrowth feeds.
We have an impact Marin full,we have an Omeline 300, and we
have an Ultium growth and all ofthem have their place, whether
they're pellets or texturedfeeds.
And, as I was telling Autumnearlier, you know, we want to
think about the genetics that wehave and feed to those genetics

(25:11):
a little bit.
And when we think about issuesthat can come with growth, it's
not just about the feed, it'salso about the environment and
it's about the genetics.
But that feed is a complementto ensure that we're not causing
issues from the feed.
So start third, third trimester,when that, when that mare is is

(25:32):
carrying that full for sure,and then, um, you know, feed
that that mare, uh, for for milkproduction and and make sure
that that baby starting to toeat as early as it wants to, um,
to ensure that we're we'regetting proper growth.

(25:55):
And so those feeds have beenwell thought out.
A lot of hours, a lot of smartpeople have worked on them when
it comes to the right balance ofcalories, to protein, to
vitamins and minerals.
And you should feed to the backof the bag, like those
recommendations aren't on there,uh, in passing, they're,
they're there for a reason tomake sure that that foal is

(26:16):
getting the right amount of allof those nutrients I just I just
talked about.
And so if, if you're feedingthat baby and and you're not
feeding to the back of the bag,so you're not feeding enough
because, say, that foal isgetting, you know, fatter than
you want it to look, then thenlet's talk about maybe a

(26:36):
different, a different tier ofgrowth feed.
So, um, that's, that'ssomething to consider, and
there's a reason we have threeand not just one.
And uh, um, you know, we, wewant to do that, to set that
horse up for the rest of itslife, and that's basically what
we're doing.

Speaker 1 (26:53):
Can you break those three down a little bit more?
Say, a um a quarter horse and alot of our quarter horse
populations can stay fat on airversus a thoroughbred that may
have a higher metabolic rate andrequire some more calories.

Speaker 2 (27:10):
Yeah.
So of our three feeds, ourImpact Marin Foal is going to be
the lowest calorie or close toan omeline 300 with calories.
And then our Ultium Growth isgoing to be a little higher
calorie and it's really aboutwhere those calories are coming
from.
So Ultium Growth is going to bea little higher calorie and
it's really about where thosecalories are coming from.
So ultium growth is going tohave a lot of fat and fiber.

(27:31):
That's where those calories arebeing sourced from.
Omeline 300 is going to havesome more coming from our
carbohydrates and same goes forthe impact maranfol.
And when we have these little,these little quarter ponies,
that their genetics say, okay,you know we're, it's dictating

(27:51):
them to grow at a certain rateversus, say, a thoroughbred that
might grow a little bit fasterthan um we and depending on what
we're wanting to do with them.
So if we're fitting them forsale or if we're, we're just
trying to get them to two yearsold, where we want to, you know,
we want to race them orwhatever we're wanting to do
with them kind of dictates onhow we want to feed them.

(28:12):
So our little quarter ponies mayor may not need the Ultium
growth or do the best on theUltium growth.
They may do better on theOmeline 300 or the Impact Marin
foal, based on what theirgenetics say.
Or if we've got some reallyfast know, some really fast
growing foals that we kind ofwant to slow down, we can even
use a ration balancer on thosebecause again, it's about it's

(28:35):
about the ratio of energy toprotein and vitamins and
minerals, and so our rationbalancers are real high in high
quality protein, aka that aminoacid profile is really nice in
there with vitamins and minerals, and if we're wanting a slow
growth rate, we might feed those, those fast-growing babies that
are maybe even prone to somesome, um, growth issues.

(28:58):
Uh, we can, we can feed themthat ration balancer and feel
good about making sure orensuring that they're getting
the proper nutrition.
We might just be slowing themdown a little bit on how they
grow with lowering that energylevel and Outlast is in a lot of
your products.

Speaker 1 (29:16):
Which of those three you were talking about?
Do they all have Outlast?

Speaker 2 (29:20):
The Omeline 300 and the Ultium Growth will have
Outlast in them as far as theration balancers go, have
outlast in them um as far as theration balancers go um the the
enrich plus senior is going tohave um uh outlast in it.
Uh, the regular enrich plusdoes not and the uh impact

(29:41):
marion fold is not.
However, you absolutely can.

Speaker 1 (29:44):
Top dress that's what I was gonna say.
You can just get a bag of itand yep, and it's not very much.
What do you?
What's a dose of the outlastfor a thousand pound horse?

Speaker 2 (29:52):
um, off the top of my head, I don't.
I don't know.
I'm thinking about oursupplement cups and what they
look like, but it's, you knowit's not much.
Yeah, it's a very small amount.
It's pretty easy just to throwit on there when I'm cup or so,
yeah, when I'm feeding my horsesgrain, I always throw a little
bit in there.

Speaker 1 (30:08):
And then the other product we use a lot is the
Purina Equine Senior which hasbeen a game changer for a lot of
these senior horses for a lotof reasons.
One of the reasons is we dowork on a lot of geriatric
horses.
Some of their teeth haveexpired.
They may be smooth, they may bemissing a bunch.
And what I love about senior isit dissolves so quick.

(30:31):
If we get we see some chokes, alot of older horses.
That's one of the first thing Iask them you know, what'd they
choke on?
What do you feed?
And if they tell me equinesenior, I usually breathe a sigh
of relief and a lot of thoseare fixed before they even get
there their own saliva isdissolving them, and if they're
not, it takes me no time withthe stomach to dissolve that
senior and get that chokeresolved.

(30:54):
Senior came out in the early 90s.

Speaker 2 (30:56):
I think yeah, yeah, it's been out a while.

Speaker 1 (30:59):
And I'm sure how long was the research on that,
Because that was prettyimpressive research, I think.

Speaker 2 (31:06):
Yeah, it's been kind of ongoing too, and there's a
lot of hours in that research.

Speaker 1 (31:15):
Yeah, and there's forage in it, correct?

Speaker 2 (31:18):
Yes, yeah, it's what we would call a complete feed.
So the forage is built into thatfeed, which means that you know
, horses have a fiberrequirement and that fiber is
important to maintain gastricmotility, function, health, and
so if you were to look at equinesenior, you're going to see the

(31:40):
first ingredient and that'sgoing to be alfalfa, because we
need that, that NDF in there.
And complete feeds mean thatthose horses don't necessarily
have to consume other forms ofroughage in order to maintain
that gastric health, and that'sthat's so important, for those
horses that you mentioned do nothave good dentition, so whether

(32:03):
they're, they're missing alltheir teeth or close to it, uh,
or you know, or when horses getold, just like us, they start to
wear out, and so they wear outon the inside, just like the
outside, and so it's not justabout their ability to intake
roughage, it's also about theirability to utilize what's in it,
and so the equine senior hasbeen thoughtfully formulated

(32:27):
where it's got a good mix of notjust roughage but high quality
protein sources, vitamins andminerals, in addition to some
technologies the outlast andalso active age that help that
aging horse to be able tocontinue to stay healthy.

Speaker 1 (32:47):
Yeah, so in theory a senior horse could live on
appearing a senior alone.

Speaker 2 (32:52):
Yes, and this is a near and dear topic for me,
because I have two 27-year-oldhorses that are freeloaders at
my house and they both eat13-ish pounds of equine senior a
day, and that's another one ofthose.
You know, equine senior is ourmost popular feed, for for good

(33:15):
reason, but it's also one of ourmost misfed feed because it is
a complete feed, and so read theback of the bag to know what
that, to know what that horseneeds.
If it's's complete foragereplacement, then a thousand
pound horse should be eating 13pounds of that a day.
Uh, something that I do with myhorses, that you know, you you

(33:35):
kind of grow up feeding horses,or or your you feed horses and
you would never, you would neverthink about doing it is I feed
them twice a day, they get fedtwice a day, and so I feed them
six and a half pounds at a time,and because they're old, picky
men, they walk away from it andI soak I use hot water soaks
immediately, I'm lazy, I mix itup, throw it out there, walk

(33:58):
away and they'll eat some, andthen they'll walk away and then
they'll come back and I don'tworry about it, because that's
the utility of that feed.
It's a complete feed.
Would I ever do that with a truequote-unquote concentrate feed?
No Right, but for that feed Ihave no qualms about doing that,
and that's how I can get 13pounds in them.

(34:20):
Because senior horses tend tobe picky from time to time and I
always tell people when they'refeeding senior horses or we're
talking about senior horsesalways feed suspiciously.
What changed today?
Are you eating the same amountthat you did?
Are you eating differently?
Is your head turned?
Are you?
You know what does your pooplook like?

(34:41):
All the things.
So I'm making sure that we'redoing all the right things for
them, or if we need to changesomething up, or you know where
they've got another loose toothwhich happens all the stinking
time with old horses Right andfiguring out what's going on to
make sure that we're maintainingbody condition on them.

Speaker 1 (35:01):
Yeah, and that's the importance of actually weighing
the feed too, because we getsome people in here, maybe for
weight loss issues or other, andwe ask them you know how many
pounds you're feeding?
Well, it's a one pound scoop ora big scoop, but a lot of these
feeds don't weigh the same.
Is that correct?

Speaker 2 (35:17):
that's right and and that's that's happens all the
time.
How much are you feeding?
I'm feeding a scoop.
What's your scoop look like?
And your scoop might be a verydifferent than my scoop.
And that's not the end of thestory, though.
Even if you know you know thatmy three quart scoop of strategy
weighs this many pounds mightbe very different than my three
quart scoop of um.

(35:38):
You know, uh, ultium growth,right, so it quart weights are
important, uh, and knowing whateach feed weighs in that scoop
is important, and you know youdon't have to weigh every day.
If you know what it weighs inthat scoop, then you know you
can say, okay, I know thisweighs this, and then you can

(36:03):
utilize.
This will really save on yourfeed bill if you're overfeeding,
or save on your horse's healthif you're underfeeding or even
overfeeding and they'recontinuing to gain weight and
you're like I don't know why,and you thought you were feeding
three pounds and you reallywere feeding five pounds at a
feeding.
That makes a difference overtime.

Speaker 1 (36:22):
Right, and the senior is great as far as the
nutrition goes, but you guysalso have the Outlast in it.
And you also have a prebioticcalled ActiveAge which we
learned about this morning.
It's been around for a longtime and, like David was talking
about, we've kind of put it onthe back burner.
But it is really fascinatingwhat this prebiotic does.

(36:44):
I mean it supports their immunesystem, their metabolic
response, it supports theirjoints and mobility.

Speaker 2 (36:50):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (36:50):
Can you tell us how that works?

Speaker 2 (36:53):
Yeah, you know, honestly I don't know exactly
how all that works.
We just know that it does work.
So the research that we didlooked at, like you said, the
immune response, did looked at,uh, like you said, the the
immune response.
And so horses that were um,that were consuming equine
senior that contained active ageuh, had a higher uh antibody

(37:16):
titer response uh to vaccines uhand and again, this research
was done in old horses and sothat's why we put it in our old
horse uh feeds.
Now that doesn't mean thatsenior feeds can't be used for
other horses, because thatabsolutely can.
Other things that we saw isthat we had a better or we had a

(37:36):
decreased inflammatory markerswhen we fed our active age Like
we talked about the serumamyloid A earlier, the serum
amyloid a earlier, and so wealso measured serum amyloid a in
these horses and and horsesconsuming at active age had uh
lower serum amyloid a levelsthan those that were not.
Uh in addition to um, you know,a a greater or a better

(38:00):
response to um meal feeding uhin terms of of insulin and
glucose clearance.

Speaker 1 (38:09):
Yeah, that's amazing.
The graphs you showed on thetiters after the vaccines was
pretty impressive.

Speaker 2 (38:14):
Yeah, really neat stuff and that was before my
time.
But Purina partnered withAmanda Adams at UK on that work
and was some really neat,elegant work.

Speaker 1 (38:26):
Yeah, because we still don't know much about
titers in horses as far asprotective.
I think the closest thing wegot is what's protective in a
hamster for West Nile virus.
So the higher we can get thosetiters, the better.
So I'm going to start some ofthese horses that may have some
conditions where they may notrespond well to the vaccine,

(38:49):
maybe start and make surethey've got that prebiotic in
them through this feed to reallymake sure our vaccines are
doing what we want them to do.

Speaker 2 (38:56):
Yeah, and as I mentioned earlier, the
microbiome is kind of the nextfrontier of nutrition and I
think we're going to continue tolearn about how different uh
different prebiotics andprobiotics work.
You know, and and something Ididn't mention earlier is like
the bacillus coagulans, gbi 30,it doesn't populate in the gut

(39:17):
and and if you quit feeding itit, it will go away.
Uh, so how?
I think it's so interesting howsome of um you know some of
these little microbes, or umfood for microbes affects either
the, the gut lining orcompetitive inhibition of

(39:38):
pathogens or the hormonalcascade in these in in animals
and mammals in general.
Uh, and I think it's.
I think we're going to continueto learn more and more and it's
an exciting time nutritionallyto be involved.

Speaker 1 (39:53):
Do you think over time the microbiome will change,
or we can change it throughdiet to where maybe this becomes
a normal bacteria in the gut.

Speaker 2 (40:06):
You know I'm not a microbiome scientist, but I
would say that, no, I don'tthink that Bacillus coagulans
GBI 30 is actually a soilbacteria, so I don't necessarily
know that it ever will live inthe gut, just based on different
environments that microbes liketo live.
However, I do think that we andwe know this actually through

(40:31):
our research and our microbiomeproject that diet is a huge
effector of what that microbialprofile looks like in the GI
tract.
So something we've not talkedabout at all is we also have a
microbiome kit where you canlook at the top 10 bacteria that

(40:51):
inhabit your horse's hindgut oras close as we can get.
So we use a fecal sample and wehave thousands of samples that
we've crowdsourced that peoplehave sent in of their, their
horses fecal sample and they hadto fill out a really involved

(41:11):
um uh questionnaire about whatthey're eating and how, their
house and their age and any, anydiseases that they have, and
what we found is you know thatthat diet is a huge uh indicator
of of kind of what thatmicrobial profile is going to
look like.
So diet diet definitely affectsit and, um, yeah, really,

(41:33):
really neat stuff so those kitsis that those are available for
horse owners.
So if anybody listening wants todo that on their horse, that's
available for them yeah, so fromthis microbiome uh project, uh,
and it's called the MQ platform, they can order a kit on
mqpurinamillscom and that's theonly way that you can get it

(41:54):
right now and send it off andhave your horse's microbiome
looked at and then we'll comeback with again, again that top
10 bacteria that are there.
And not only that, but you'reassigned what we call an MQ
score, which is basically lookskind of like a fuel tank, so

(42:19):
it's either stable, which wouldbe kind of full, or green, and
then you've got variability,which would be in the yellow,
and then you've got variable anddeficient, which would be in
the yellow, and then you've gotvariable and deficient, which
would be in the red, like a lowfuel tank.
And we we do that based on a fewdifferent things what microbes
are there, uh, the diversity ofthose microbes, disease state,

(42:40):
uh, of that horse, becauseyou're also filling out a pretty
involved questionnaire.
And then the last part of it,and probably the most powerful
part of the kit, is that a PhDnutritionist, one of my team
members, or I are going to lookat that overall, look at the MQ
score of your horse and whatyour horse is eating, and then

(43:03):
make recommendations based offof that to either maintain or
improve that, that MQ score.
So some really really neatstuff coming out of that.
And and the fun part is is thatwe we kind of know, based on
again all these samples thathave been sent in, what we we

(43:23):
consider a healthy uh microbiomelooks like in the horse and
that is that's kind of like aliving thing, because the more
samples that we get in uh, thatwill that will shift things
slightly on what we considerhealthy or, um, you know, good

(43:44):
uh versus unhealthy or maybevariable in horses.
So we're continuing to learnand there's a lot of science
coming out of that.

Speaker 1 (43:54):
So the new samples you're getting in that people
submit, you're not justreporting and sending back,
you're keeping those for furtherresearch and development right.

Speaker 2 (44:03):
Not the samples themselves but the output.
So that goes into themicrobiome quotient database and
I think originally you knowpeople were sending in very
healthy horses.
But the people that are buyingthese kits you know they're
buying them because sometimesit's because they're curious and

(44:24):
want to know and sometimes it'sbecause, hey, I know
something's not quite right withmy horse, or I've got this
horse that's got this diseasestate and kind of know where
he's going to stand, and so Ithink we're getting a better
cross-reference of what's trulyout there with horses, with
disease states, age, breed, sex.
That tells us more about thetrue slice of horses that are

(44:47):
there across the United States.

Speaker 1 (44:49):
Yeah, that's really cool.
So we're helping the horseswith this and the horses are
helping you guys.
And they not only get the kitand the report, but they get
basically a consultation from aPhD nutritionist on this.

Speaker 2 (45:01):
Yeah, that's right, and so there's a write-up.
But then also you can request a20-minute consultation with
that phd.
That that did the review ofyour, your, uh, horse's
microbiome.
So some really neat stuff, uh,that you get out of it yeah,
that's cool.

Speaker 1 (45:16):
We'll put the link in the show notes that way you
guys can scroll down and clickon it if you're interested in
getting a kit.
Um, I don't know what it's likein arkansas, but it is hot and
humid in southern Illinois rightnow.
One of the biggest things wedeal with this time of year is
horses not drinking enough,getting dehydrated, and then we

(45:37):
deal with a lot of impactioncolics yeah and what I'll
recommend to people issupplementing salt yeah so if,
from a nutritionist standpoint,can we talk a little bit about
that?
I know you had a thing on thehorsecom about salt, so yeah, is
there too much, is there notenough?

Speaker 2 (45:54):
yeah, yeah, salt, salt.
We tend to overlook saltsometimes because we're so
focused on on everything else,but especially during these
really hot, humid, terribletimes, which is basically
Arkansas in the summer everyyear, but also for our, our
performance horses that werewere riding hard, you know, and

(46:15):
they're they're sweating and sothey're hypertonic sweaters, so
they're sweating out a lot ofelectrolytes and we need to
replace that.
And salt, sodium chloride isthe major one there and we want
to make sure that horses aregetting enough.
And, just like you recommendingsalt, I recommend salt, just

(46:36):
plain white.
Table salt works great, notdesigner, necessarily.
They don't need designer salt,and sometimes table salt works
great, not not designer.
I don't necessarily.
They don't need designer salt,and sometimes designer salt is
not the answer.
It should be sodium chloride,and not always.
You know, I always tell people I, anytime I go to a farm visit,
I'm looking for a salt block outthere.
However, salt blocks, um, theydon't.

(46:57):
Horses have to lick a lot of it, especially if they're
hardworking horses.
So, top dressing with tablesalt on the feed and usually for
just a regular horse, a heapingtablespoon full.
If you've got a hardworkinghorse, a couple tablespoons full
, you know we'll do the trick.
They need about 28 grams I uhof salt today to replenish, uh

(47:23):
their electrolytes, and this isgoing to be for, just like a
regular maintenance horse, toreplenish their salt.
If you've got a performancehorse, you're, you're
exponentially um uh, adding tothat like somewhere up into 200
grams even, depending on howmuch you're sweating.
So it's a lot.
And, uh, yeah, table salt doesa great, a great job.

(47:45):
Now, if you've got a horse thatthat will not consume
electrolytes, there's a.
You know, there's a few otherthings that you can do, a few
different uh tools in yourtoolbox.
If you're going to feed acommercial electrolyte, look for
one that has salt, though,listed first, not one that has
sugar listed first, and, andyou'll see a lot of supplements
out there that do and, and wedon't want to see dextrose, we

(48:05):
want to see, you know, salt, uh,as the first ingredient,
because that's what we're tryingto put in them.
Purina also has a really coollittle electrolyte mash.
That uh is is really palatable,so it's not truly salty, but it
will replenish enoughelectrolyte for a horse that's
been sweating hard for 30minutes, and you can add it to

(48:26):
the water.
You want to make it a masheither way, so you can make it
real wet.
It's super, super palatable,but you can also add it to the
water and people will make itjust super wet, so it's more
like a soup and horses love it,and even we saw some cool stuff
from it, because even peoplethat will take their horse to a

(48:47):
show in town where the horse isused to drinking well water and
they go and drink city water andthey don't want to drink.
It will encourage drinking.
So yeah, salt is superimportant, electrolytes are
super important, especiallyright now when we're, when we're
um, um in these, these reallyhot, humid months.

Speaker 1 (49:06):
Yeah, and that product you're talking about is
appropriately named replenishreplenish, replenish, yeah, yeah
, clever yeah yeah, we'll usethat on a lot of um colics too
yeah afterwards.
Try to get them consuming stuffyeah um, and talking about
dextrose and the sugar, onething I struggle with reading
some of these feed labels thatpeople bring in products I'm not

(49:26):
familiar with is breaking downthe carbohydrates on the bag,
the sugar starches, the ndf andand all that.
Could you give us just like anelevator pitch of what those are
and and what horse ownersshould look for in those?

Speaker 2 (49:40):
Yeah, so, uh, when we think about carbohydrates, we
we have to think about oursimple carbohydrates and we
think about our, our, you know,our, our fibrous type of
carbohydrates.
So on bags you will see a lot.
You'll just see fiber or crudefiber, and we know that fiber
doesn't tell us a whole lotanymore because it's this bench

(50:02):
top, you know thing that we'redoing, where we're measuring
fiber, but it doesn't tell a lotabout what type of fiber is in
there.
So it's been broke out furtherinto NDF, or neutral detergent
fiber, and ADF, which is aciddetergent fiber.
And again, these are things wedo on a benchtop to measure

(50:27):
chemically what that means.
And we're getting closer, withNDF and ADF, of knowing what
those fibers are.
So it has to do with where it'sdigestible at, so whether it's
digestible in the foregut or thehindgut, but really and truly,
those were developed forruminants as well.
But what, what we do know aboutNDF that's good is that we, we

(50:49):
need that NDF to maintain guthealth and so there's a certain
amount of fiber and we talkedabout this a little bit with
complete feeds that horses need.
That NDF, uh, that, that thattells us.
Okay, you know, there's acertain level and really and
truly we don't know the exactlevel of that in horse research,
uh, but but we know around whatthey need.

(51:12):
Now, um, as we've started usingmore by-product feeds like beet
pulp and soy hulls, what wefound is that there's some
fibers that get captured in thatNDF.
That's not truly NDF, sothey're actually more
fermentable fibers, and you hearthat a lot over.

(51:33):
This has a lot of fermentablefibers, and so we're talking
about like pectins that you findin beet pulp, and so they go to
the hindgut the same way thatmost NDF or hemicellulose does
as well, but microbes break itdown quicker and there's

(51:53):
different volatile fatty acidsthat come out of those.
So you know, there's someinteresting stuff that we're
still teasing out as far as whatfibers are there.
So that's kind of going downthe line.
But you know, people love beetpulp and, again, soy hulls full
of pectins too, so we need tolive on soy hulls a little bit

(52:15):
as well.
But as far as the back of thefeed tag, you're never going to
find pectins or inulins on there.
You're going to find NDFs.
So, yeah, ndf is important.
The thing about NDF is, youknow, depending on what
ingredients are there, though,that NDF might be pretty high,
and so when you do have high NDF, that's an indicator that the

(52:36):
calories that that feed providesis usually a little lower.
But it depends again, completefeeds we want some of that NDF,
but a complete feed has lowercalories than a concentrate feed
does by design, because we'refeeding more of it, or we should
be feeding more of it.
As far as starch and sugar goes, you know those are simple

(52:57):
carbohydrates and so they'regoing to be digested and
absorbed in the foregut, or wewant them to be.
We don't want starches going tothe hindgut, and you know, then
they're going to be broken downinto glucose, and so then that
glucose can be used forimmediate basically used for
immediate energy, or it can goand be made into fat, and you

(53:20):
know all kinds of thingshappening with it.
And, um, people, you know we get, we get tore up on starch and
sugars a little bit because wethink, oh my gosh, we can't feed
high starch and sugar to thesehorses.
Well, yeah, and no, likethere's, we know that there's a
level of starch that we don'twant to get over, which is about

(53:41):
two grams of starch perkilogram of body weight, per
meal, and so that's importantbecause we don't want starch
going to the hindgut.
However, if your horse is notmetabolic, they absolutely can
and should use some starch andsugar.
And so there's also, you know,this kind of level this around

(54:02):
10% to 12% that we don't everwant to feed over starch and
sugar.
Well, if we've got metabolichorses, yeah, maybe we should
talk about that a little bitmore, but for our non-metabolic
horses we definitely can feedmore than that.
And then what people need toalso recognize is that on a feed
tag, those, those things are inpercentages and so, uh, a, a

(54:26):
10% starch feed, uh, if you'refeeding five pounds of it is
more than a 15% starch feed ifyou're feeding one pound of it,
kind of thing.
So you know you always have tothink about how much am I
feeding?
Times that by the percentage,uh to, to kind of figure out how
much you're you're feeding.
So we get a little horse owners.

(54:50):
As horse owners, you know wewant to do the best for our
horses, but we also get a little.
Uh, two, I think two tore upabout starches and sugars
sometime.

Speaker 1 (55:00):
Why don't we want sugar going to the hindgut?

Speaker 2 (55:03):
So you know, most sugars don't, it's usually
starch, and so when we get a lotof starch to the hindgut, what
happens is the microbes thatwant to utilize that starch
produce this little volatilefatty acid called lactic acid.
That can cause hindgut acidosisand we don't want that to

(55:24):
happen.
But again, you've got to feedquite a bit to get there and so
recognize.
Again, the feeding directionson the back of the bag have been
thoughtfully calculated toensure that's not happening.
And if you're having to feedmore than than you think you
should, or or outside of thosefeeding directions, get in touch

(55:47):
with a nutritionist or aveterinarian and and find out
you know what it is that youneed to be doing.
And if you do have a metabolichorse, then then we definitely
want to feed them, especially aninsulin resistant horse.
Ppid horses are a little bitdifferent animal, for sure,
depending on how we're treatingthem, but we want to feed them

(56:08):
based on their metabolic state.
But we should not be afraid ofstarches and sugars.
They definitely have theirplace, especially in the
performance horse realm.

Speaker 1 (56:16):
And what is the difference between starch and
sugar?

Speaker 2 (56:20):
Yeah, so starches are made up of sugars, so sugars
tend to be simpler, you knowsimpler molecules, so it's like
one molecule or it's twomolecules put together, whereas
starch is going to be severalput together by different types
of bonds, and that's you know,that's the, the main, the main

(56:42):
differences.
That that we see and and howthat's analyzed on a benchtop is
, um, you know we're, we'reusing different, different types
of analysis to get there, andso, uh, you, you don't see, for
the most part, you see morestarches in, like grains and not

(57:02):
as much sugars, and you knowyou're going to have starch and
sugars in hay as well, right, soit's not just about the grain,
it's also about hay and really,if you or forage, because we're
grazing right now so if youtruly want to know how much
starch and sugar, uh, your horseis taking in, you've also got
to do an analysis on that.

Speaker 1 (57:23):
So it's always interesting to talk to folks
that they're real worried aboutthe starch and sugar in the feed
, but they have no idea whattheir starch and sugar content
of their, their forage yeah, andit's hard to look at it and say
because we get some that we maythink is appropriate by looks
and they send it off and it'sgot starch and sugars through
the roof.
Um, if, if we do have hay, thathow is there any way to

(57:48):
decrease the starch and sugar inhay like soaking?

Speaker 2 (57:51):
yeah, so with with metabolic horses, a lot of times
you know we have to.
We have to utilize the hay thatthat they have, or the hay
that's available in your area,and so soaking definitely will
um help to decrease starch andsugar in in that, in that hay.

(58:12):
What we don't want to do, uh,when you soak, there's a couple
things you don't want to do.
One is you don't want to soaktoo long, because it's not just
starch and sugar that's leachingout of that hay, it's also
other nutrients.

Speaker 1 (58:23):
Right.

Speaker 2 (58:23):
So we literally can render pretty decent hay not
decent hay by over soaking.
So you know, a good rule ofthumb is about 30 minutes for
most hays.
We also don't want to pour thatwater out where those horses

(58:44):
can get to it, because that's,that's where all that starts to
sugar with sugar water.
Yeah, so when you, when you doit, you know, don't, don't soak
it overnight, don't uh, don'tsoak it for hours at a time,
don't soak it in the sun.
It's, it's labor intensive tohave to soak hay, but in some
cases it's what we have to do.
Another option, you know, ifyou can't soak hay, is you can

(59:06):
look at other types of hay andwe can come up with an
appropriate level of starch andsugar for that metabolic course.
And I love to champion alfalfahere, because alfalfa is a
legume and it actually does notcontain high levels of starch
and sugar by and large.
You know, again, always test,but it tends to run around 10%.

(59:29):
And that's where we kind we'vegot metabolic horses, especially
insulin resistant horses thatwe're wanting to put some weight
on, which sometimes we havethose.
Uh, alfalfa is a great option.
Uh, in in for for those horsesin that realm yeah, which?

Speaker 1 (59:53):
which type of hay is typically highest in in sugar
and starch?

Speaker 2 (59:57):
yeah.
So normally it tends to be thecool season types.
So orchard grass fescue, tryingto think what we feed the
horses Not so much Timothy, eventhough we will put him in the
cool season or put it in thecool season realm.
Timothy kind of shuts off andsays, nope, I'm done.

(01:00:20):
But cool season grasses andthis is without getting too
nerdy on forage stuff the waythat they uh store starches they
don't have the same kind ofregulation that a legume or a
warm season grass like bermudagrass has, and so they will
accumulate more starch and sugarand and at certain times a year
they will also do that.

(01:00:42):
So really, really nice highquality orchard grass which I
see and I look at I'm like, ohmy gosh, do I really need that
for my horses?
Maybe, maybe not, you know,depending on what I'm doing with
those horses.
So so I always talk about withhorse owners how to match your

(01:01:03):
hay up with the horse that youhave, and so if you've got a
little fat pasture puff, like Ido, she's not needing a whole
lot of um, he's not needing, shedoesn't need to eat alfalfa,
you know.
She just uh, just a run of themill.
Uh, common Bermuda grass haydoes wonders for her with a
ration balancer.
Now, if I start riding herharder, then maybe she needs a

(01:01:25):
little bit more, but I doubt it.

Speaker 1 (01:01:30):
I think, at least on your website, the senior I know
breaks it down to how much haythey're getting versus how much
senior to feed.
Is that on the label too, oryes?

Speaker 2 (01:01:42):
yeah, that's.
You can find that on the eitherthe back of the bag or on the
tag.
And so for horses, again,senior feed is it's made for
horses that can't, uh, consumelong stem roughage, but it's
also made for those horses thatcan't digest necessarily, what's
happening with long stemroughage, and again things are
wearing out on the inside and soif they can eat some hay,

(01:02:06):
there's a, there's a equivalencyof how much that horse can eat
and then how much the feed ofequine senior.
And you know if you've got a, asenior that maintains on equine
senior, and again it's going tobe lower calorie than some of
our other concentrate feeds,great, awesome.

Speaker 1 (01:02:23):
Yeah.
And then, talking about thesefat horses are metabolic, we get
a lot of questions Well, howmuch weight does he need to lose
?
I'm not a very good judge atthese.
Some of the horses will referto the referral hospitals.
I'll think they may be 1,000pounds.
Then they have a scale thereand we get the report and they
may be closer to 1300 pounds.
So what is a good way for horseowners to kind of track their

(01:02:47):
horse's body weight or condition, and especially those and I'm
guilty of this with my dog yousee him every day.
You don't quite notice.
Oh my god, he's gotten fat yeahso what are some resources or
tools people can use to to kindof know their horses aren't
getting too skinny or too fat asthey're feeding stuff?

Speaker 2 (01:03:06):
yeah.
So really the the best tool outthere for veterinarians,
nutritionists, lay folks,everybody is to body condition
score, and so the one that weuse primarily here in the United
States is the Henneke bodycondition score, which is a one
to nine system, and it's it'sawesome because, first of all,

(01:03:27):
it's backed by science.
So Don Henneke that was his PhDwork at A&M and it's it
basically looks at fat cover.
So horses accrete fat primarilyon the outside of their body,
right underneath their skin,over their muscle, right.
All breeds of horses accretefat that way, and so you can use

(01:03:48):
it across all ages and allbreeds and all confirmations to
look at body condition score.
And so it's our best tool tosay, okay, this is kind of the
health status of this horse,which can mean a whole lot of
things, but if a horse has painor GI issues or something,
they're more likely going tolose weight than gain weight.

(01:04:10):
And so a body condition scoreof five is about where we want
most horses, whether that's amaintenance horse that's out
living its best life, or that'sa maintenance horse that's out
living its best life, or that'sa performance horse.
Uh, in some cases, you know,with our like a elite
thoroughbred racehorses.
You know we'll see a four and ahalf, and that's great, um, but
.
But usually five, five to sixis where we want those horses to

(01:04:34):
be, uh, to kind of dependent onwhat they're doing.
When they carry more weightthan that, uh, it can affect
their metabolic health.
It can affect their metabolichealth, it can affect their
joint health, it can justoverall affect their health and
how they feel when you ride them.
If they carry less weight thanthat, it can definitely affect
performance, how their saddlefits, et cetera as well.

(01:04:55):
And the cool thing is is thatit's where we can do this
assessment.
We do it through palpation andvisually and look at how fat is
accreted over the ribs, over theneck and the wither and over

(01:05:15):
the tail, head and the loin.
And we can do that withoutnecessarily a lot of bias.
So you can say, okay, can Ifeel their ribs?
And if I can feel their ribs,is there any fat filling in
between those kind of things?
And so it doesn't take verylong to kind of get good at
knowing what a body conditionscore of five or six or seven

(01:05:37):
feels like, and so once you do,you should be the person that is
consistently body conditionscore of five or six or seven,
feels like.
And so once you do, you shouldbe the person that is
consistently body conditionscoring your own horse.
But you can do it without a lotof bias associated because you
can say, okay, what is, what isthe fat cover that I can feel
and see here?

Speaker 1 (01:05:54):
What?
What is?
What's the typical ribs looklike on a body condition score
of five.

Speaker 2 (01:05:59):
With a body condition score of five.
You can't see ribs.
But you can feel ribs, butthere's no noticeable fat
filling in between those ribs.
So that's you know.
That's one of the things that Itell people.
Okay, this is can you see ribsyes or no?
If you can't see ribs, can youfeel ribs yes or no?
If you can feel ribs, is youfeel ribs yes or no?

(01:06:19):
If you can't, if you can feelribs, is there any fat filling
in between?
So that means that you're at abody condition score five or
above.

Speaker 1 (01:06:25):
Or, if you can see ribs, you're below a body
condition score five, yeah, so,um, you've been purina for a
couple years and you guys arealways researching, do you is
there?
You know what's what's next foryou guys, because it's always
when david calls me aboutsomething I always get excited
because I know it's not justsome fad that's going around

(01:06:47):
facebook with these barrelracers, there's, it's something
that's going to help horses,yeah, and there's research and
quality control behind it.
So, if you can, can you tell uskind of what direction you guys
are, are thinking?

Speaker 2 (01:06:58):
yes.
So this is an interestingquestion because when I came on
to the purina team, I I justlike had to do a dance and kind
of squeal, because I'm workingwith these, these team members,
these other phds that are aspassionate about equine
nutrition as I am, and they'resuper busy bodies and go-getters

(01:07:20):
and you know and, and sothere's always something in the
pipeline with that said.
Uh, earlier this year we didhave a tornado come through the
gray summit research farm anddid did a number on the equine
unit.
So, uh, right now we're, we'refocused on getting that equine
unit back to you know where it'ssupposed to be.

Speaker 1 (01:07:40):
And that's by St Louis, that's in St.

Speaker 2 (01:07:42):
Louis, yep, at our research farm there.
And once that's kind of up andgoing again, I would say that
you know I've talked quite a bitabout our microbiome quotient
and microbiome platform and soyou know, I think that there
might be some stuff on thehorizon in in that realm, or I

(01:08:04):
would, would fully expect that,uh, so yeah, yeah, that's about
all I can say now.

Speaker 1 (01:08:08):
So if anybody's listening out there, I mean,
veterinarians are greatresources.
A lot of us we're definitelynot phd nutritionist, so my
knowledge of nutrition, I'll bethe first to admit, is nowhere
close to yours.
But I will give people David'snumber, our Purina guy.
How can people get a hold ofsomebody like you about specific

(01:08:31):
Purina products or forage ingeneral, like what?
Where can they go for this info?

Speaker 2 (01:08:36):
Yeah, so there's a few places and it's okay to
start with you and it's okay foryou to call david and in fact
you know we want that to happenand and david has a direct line
to me or one of my team membersand so, uh, the the great thing
about our sales force that'sthat's out there is that they

(01:08:58):
are are very trained nutritionalconsultants and if they don't
know the answer, they know thatthey can go up the pipeline.
Um, we, we want to partner withveterinarians, we want to
partner with industryprofessionals to to make sure
that that our pulse is iscorrect and how we're, you,
we're thinking about andapproaching nutrition.

(01:09:18):
So, um, it's okay to to talk totrainers and veterinarians and
it's also okay to to get intouch with those, those sales
folks.
And and we want you to, you canalso go to, you know, purina
millscom and there's a customerservice line there, and that
customer service line, uh, hasalso a direct, has also a direct

(01:09:39):
report to the PhD nutritionistthere.
My team is small but mighty andwe work hard and we play hard
and we want to answer thosequestions and it's not just
about and I think what I lovemost about this company is.
It's not just about pushingPurina feed, it's about doing
the right thing for thoseanimals, and I love to see

(01:10:02):
success happen.
And that's what part of being ascience-backed company is about
is we have that ability to goout and say, okay, this happened
in a controlled environment andthese are the differences that
we saw, and then we can take itout to the people and have have
those differences.
So do, do I want you to contactme?

(01:10:23):
Heck, yeah, I want you tocontact me and so do all my, all
my co-workers.
So, however, you can get a holda dealer, a veterinarian, uh,
going straight through the salessalesperson in your area.
If you go into any purinadealer, you can say, hey, I want
a line to your salesperson, andthat salesperson is going to be
more than happy to talk to youand I'm going to be more than

(01:10:43):
happy to talk to you if it, ifit continues to go up the line.

Speaker 1 (01:10:46):
Awesome, yeah Well, thank you so much for coming to
our clinic and teaching us thismorning before we did this
podcast.
And thanks for taking your timeto sit down and talk to us.
We sure appreciate it and we'llput a link to sit down and talk
to us.
We sure appreciate it and we'llput a link to the kits they can
order in there and we'llprobably put a link to the body
condition score and a link tothat your website on there.

(01:11:07):
So, if anybody needs to, you cango down in the show notes and
click on those, and I've learnedso much this morning.
And thank you so much again.
Dr Williams, you're welcome.
I'm more than happy to be here,all right?
Well, hopefully you'll comeback.
Thank you All right.
Thanks for tuning in and untilnext time, take care of your
horses and yourself.