December 15, 2025 • 47 mins
Forgiveness isn’t “forgive and forget.” Real forgiveness doesn’t erase what happened — it helps you stop the past from controlling your present.
In this episode of Beat The Mental Health Out Of It! (AKA “BTMHOOI!”), Nicholas Wichman (“The DEFECTIVE Schizoaffective”) and co-host Tony Medeiros (“IndyPocket”) get brutally honest about what forgiveness looks like when real harm has happened: not excusing it, not minimizing it, and not bypassing accountability — but learning how to cope without losing yourself.
Using personal stories — including suicide loss within a family and traumatic relationship experiences — we break down how forgiveness, accountability, boundaries, and atonement fit together. Because sometimes the missing piece isn’t your willingness to forgive. It’s whether the harm is actually owned, repaired, and changed. And when that piece never shows up, “forgive and forget” can turn into a trap that keeps you stuck, resentful, or retraumatized.
Content note: discussion of suicide loss and heavy trauma themes.
In this episode, we talk about:
Why “forgive and forget” is a myth (and what forgiveness actually is)
- Accountability vs. apology: what counts and what doesn’t
- Where atonement fits — and what real repair looks like
- Why boundaries aren’t cruelty — they’re self-respect
- How grief and trauma distort relationships over time
- The long shadow suicide can cast on a family
- Why forgiveness is personal, and not something you owe anyone on a timeline
If you’re stuck trying to forgive someone who won’t own what they did (or you’re trying to forgive without betraying yourself), join our Discord “The Struggle Bus” and drop the situation — we’ll help you sort accountability, atonement, and boundaries without gaslighting yourself. (link below)
Beat The Mental Health Out Of It! (AKA “BTMHOOI!”) is a candid mental health podcast rooted in lived experience: schizoaffective disorder, schizophrenia spectrum psychosis, BPD, PTSD, trauma recovery, coping skills, and dark humor that helps make serious mental illness more understandable and human.
Hosted by Nicholas Wichman (“The DEFECTIVE Schizoaffective”) with frequent co-host Tony Medeiros (“IndyPocket”), we cover psych wards, psychiatric medication, disability, religious trauma, good therapy, bad therapy, and practical real-world coping — plus the societal and relationship issues that shape mental health every day. The goal isn’t just “fighting stigma.” It’s education, clarity, and honest conversation.
We interview everyone from everyday people to public figures, clinicians, and professionals, because mental health struggles don’t care who you are. If you’re willing to share your story or expertise, we aim to offer a safe, judgment-free space where you can speak openly — and still have some fun while doing it.
New episodes drop every other Monday at 6am EDT.
Want community and support? Join our Discord, “The Struggle Bus”: https://discord.gg/emFXKuWKNA
All links (TikTok, YouTube, Streaming, etc.): https://linktr.ee/BTMHOOI
Podcast cover art by Ryan Manning
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
SPEAKER_01 (00:23):
Here it is, Bottom Huey beat the mental health out
of it.
Seems like it's been a minute.
It's been a minute since you andI have done one together.
SPEAKER_00 (00:31):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (00:31):
We are past due.
It's good to be back.
Good to be back, just the two ofus.
Tonight's episode isAccountability, Forgiveness, and
Atonement.
Gonna get deep tonight.
Gonna get deep in there.
Real dirty.
Alright.
So I had the idea for this one.
You did.
(00:51):
We talked about it, and uh,think this man here has a few
opinions.
Opinions are like assholes,everybody's got one.
SPEAKER_00 (01:02):
And they stink.
And they stink most often.
Most often, yes.
Most often they do, yes.
So why don't you start?
Since you kind of you had thethe genesis of this idea.
Genesis.
SPEAKER_01 (01:15):
Um yes.
I am Marvel or sorry, Bottom HuiJesus.
SPEAKER_00 (01:21):
Anyway, okay, so you had the idea, forgiveness, and
and you kind of outlined wherethis came from.
Do you want to outline?
SPEAKER_01 (01:29):
I would love to, because they're gonna need the
outline pretty much.
We had the conversation.
Um this is your segue.
My segue.
SPEAKER_00 (01:38):
So please segue, sir.
SPEAKER_01 (01:39):
I I love seging.
SPEAKER_00 (01:41):
Yeah?
SPEAKER_01 (01:41):
Pegging and segging in the way that we like.
So you know, mentioned severaltimes on on the show about my
grandmother who committedsuicide um when I was 16 in
2009.
Yeah.
Um, so I'm 33 now.
Um, that's uh 14 years ago.
I'm I'm not good with math.
(02:01):
I'm drinking.
Yeah.
Not the math podcast.
We certainly said that a lot.
No.
Anyway, uh many, many years agoat this point, and you've heard
me on the show talk about howangry I am about it and how
rightly so.
You know, things things uhthat's a very complicated um
situation.
And a lot of r um is it uh uhresidual effects uh from that
(02:27):
have continued to Well and andthe short s for the people who
haven't heard the story, the shthe Episode seven.
SPEAKER_00 (02:35):
Yeah, the long short of it is that she knew that you
were coming over, you and yourmother were scheduled to come
check on her.
Yeah.
And her words were uh I'll makesure to be ready for you.
Which sounds so sinister.
It it is in hindsight, yeah.
Knowing what she had waiting foryou.
SPEAKER_01 (02:54):
Yeah, yeah.
And to do that to your16-year-old uh grandson, who
frankly we were very close.
Um it's a little fucked up, alittle messed up.
But let me let me tell you, soyou know, a lot of sessions in
therapy have been spent on uhforgiveness and the healing
started through music.
I recalled music we used tolisten to together because we
(03:16):
did a lot.
One in particular, I didn'treally understand the depth of
what it could have meant to her.
I am I said by Neil Diamond.
You know that one?
Not not very well.
So I mean, I'm not gonna say Iam I said I I am familiar with
the song, but I have not so youknow I'm deeply Neil uh Diamond
(03:40):
is for an incredible umlyricist.
Oh yeah, and you know, a lot ofhis uh famous songs are kind of
masked by the you know the thegimmick or the hood, you know
right.
So right, but then you've gotlike Holly Holy and Love and the
Rocks and I am I said and youknow Hello again.
SPEAKER_00 (04:02):
Hello to see.
Actually, as a kid, I was a hugeNeil Diamond fan because of that
the remake of the jazz singer.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (04:11):
I mean they just recently did a musical of that.
Oh, did they?
Like uh he just wrote one, andit's it starts with him in
therapy.
Wait, and there's there's aisn't there a Hugh Jackman that
he's impersonating him now too?
I was so disappointed when I sawthe preview for that.
I was like, they're doing abiopic on, and it's like, damn
it.
They're doing a biopic onsomebody's impersonator, yeah.
(04:34):
It could be good, but anyway,the the new musical is is Neil,
it starts off with him intherapy.
Oh wow, and he's talking abouthis music and and his loneliness
and and isolation.
I mean, Neil, come on thefucking show before you die,
you're like 8,000 years old.
With with that song, you know,it's a lot about isolation and
and um feeling alone, and andone line that resonates with me
(04:58):
is I'm not one who likes toswear, but I've never liked the
sound of being alone.
And she was somebody who, youknow, once my grandparents
divorced, she never was um trulywith anybody else.
And she probably would have beena difficult person to um live
with as a partner after that.
Um just because it can be.
(05:19):
And just be well, just becauseyou know, she had she had
established her own lifestyleand was a very independent
person and all those things.
But you know, I think I think welook back and and probably think
that it would have been a goodthing for her to have found
somebody.
But uh in the end, you know, itjust came down to re revisiting
her humanity.
I didn't realize that was a bigbarrier to me.
(05:42):
I could reflect and think aboutall the great times we had
because there were a ton ofthem, um, and all the things she
did for me and generous and kindand supportive and all those
things.
What have we talked about a loton suicide on this show is that
you know people do that, theyleave nothing but devastation in
their wake, and you know, theydon't help anything.
You know, they think what wesaid is you know, people in that
(06:05):
state think they're the burdenin life.
They think people will be betteroff without them.
Right.
They think you're couldn't befurther.
And the way I've kind of umsimplified that is you think
you're the burden in life, butyou're actually the burden in
death.
Um so but it is hard to get pastthat if you're living after
that.
For sure.
(06:25):
Um so I it all came down tore-examining her humanity beyond
that.
Um, and it's really helped, andit's helped in other situations
too for forgiveness.
But that that's where this wholetopic started.
Yeah.
And I know you had a differentdirection you wanted to go into,
(06:47):
which is gonna spark a lot ofdifferent takes on this.
SPEAKER_00 (06:51):
To me, it's like, okay, most of us hear the old
adage, you know, forgive them,otherwise you're carrying it
around.
Right.
Right.
So the analogy is that you arethe warden at the prison you are
holding them in.
Right.
You know, your hatred and youranger and all those things.
But the problem with that isthat you have to show up to the
(07:13):
prison where they are every dayto keep checking in on that.
Right.
So the prisoner is living yourlife, instead of living your
forgiveness piece allows you notto have to go to the prison, or
at least that's what we're told.
Right.
So, so my talking point on thisone is if we're told to just let
(07:35):
it go, is that reallyforgiveness?
Because it's so rare that you'regoing to approach someone,
right?
They take accountability for it,right, and then they change what
that behavior is to atone forthe wrong.
Right.
So that you can then say, Iforgive you.
(07:55):
Right.
Forgiveness should be thisrelease, right?
Yep.
It should be releasing of thetension created by whatever
event happened to cause thisbreak.
SPEAKER_01 (08:09):
And sometimes it's an occurrence that continues to
happen.
It's a hurt that is repeated.
SPEAKER_00 (08:15):
Right.
Yeah.
And is it really forgiveness, oris it just letting it go?
In other words, putting it in acanister and stick it in the
back of the attic so you forgiveand forget.
If feel like you've been sold alie, all of us, yeah, to accept
that forgiveness is forgetting.
(08:37):
It's not.
Because I think it's twodifferent things.
Oh, I agree with you.
And and the reason I say that,and you know this, uh-huh,
because we just did an episodeon borderline borderline
personality disorder.
And I was one of the lucky oneswho got to marry one.
And congratulations.
Yeah, thank you.
(08:57):
Uh it was yeah.
There were some good times.
Such a such a needle in ahaystack lottery win there.
Um well, the needles wereactually poking me.
SPEAKER_01 (09:08):
Yeah, and it was a whole haystack of needles, so um
it was it was like acupuncture,but it it didn't help.
It caused more pain.
SPEAKER_00 (09:17):
Yeah, it was more like stabbing.
SPEAKER_01 (09:20):
Um He was a horrible acupuncturist.
SPEAKER_00 (09:23):
Oh fuck.
Malpractice.
Yeah, for sure.
It hit every nerve.
But that happened to me over adecade ago.
And the um the actual harm wasdone as far back as let's say
2015 um or so, somewhere aroundin there.
(09:45):
Um and and I thought, well, Iwill immerse myself and finding
everything out about it andfiguring out how I can get
myself out of this.
And I pulled myself out of thistrench, and you know, then I was
healed, right?
And then we had this episode,and I was fine through the
episode.
Well, um, but woke up the nextmorning and really truly was
(10:10):
struggling with a lot of itagain, which really kind of
brings that that issue to theforefront for me.
It's like, was it actualforgiveness or was it just
letting it go?
And if and if we're going tocall letting go forgiveness, how
(10:30):
how do we deal with it when itrears its ugly head again?
Because there's always going tobe triggers.
SPEAKER_02 (10:36):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (10:36):
Even though I spent a good six months to a year out
in the garage punishing myselfwith weights.
Right.
But it was, you know, all thesepeople talking about uh
borderline and how deadly it canbe to your nervous system.
You know, you never, you neverfeel safe in a relationship, you
never truly feel like you havethat connection.
(10:59):
It can, you know, put you onhigh alert for all sorts of
nefarious activities that areactually part of making a real
relationship happen.
So it can it can mess you uppretty bad.
Um but I don't I don't know thatI can say I actually forgave
(11:24):
her.
I don't know if I can.
Not without there being somesort of a conversation, and I
know I'm never gonna get that.
Well, and you've said youwouldn't want to see her face to
face, too.
No, seeing her face to facewould be rough.
Yeah.
Because it would be such a mixlike of hatred and like, oh,
(11:45):
she's back, right?
My body would remember thefeelings, right?
But my head would remember myhead and my heart would remember
the the drama, the yeah.
Yeah.
So I I don't know what that is.
I don't know if that can beconsidered forgiving,
(12:06):
forgiveness to let something go,you know, because if that's the
case, if it's not the same, thenI don't know that I've ever
forgiven anyone who's hurt me tothat level.
SPEAKER_01 (12:17):
Well, see, that's what I was thinking about too,
is because I don't think I don'tthink they are the same.
I don't think they can be.
To me, letting go means youdon't acknowledge that it
happened, and I don't thinkthat's fair to you or the person
that committed the transgressiontowards you.
Yeah.
Um, you know, uh one thing thatthe that came to my mind, you
(12:38):
know, the the three keys tothis, you know, forgiveness is
accountability and thenatonement for it.
But the accountability part ofit is um, you know, it is it's a
wonderful thing to takeaccountability.
SPEAKER_02 (12:49):
Sure.
SPEAKER_01 (12:50):
And, you know, if the person who you've wronged or
continue to hurt, if they'regoing to forgive you, that
person who's doing the wronging,I don't know, I'm probably
phrasing things weird, but theper is going to have to uh take
accountability for it first.
Sure.
So there has to be recognitionthat, oh, I caused a problem.
(13:12):
I caused a problem, right?
And that's the first step, Ithink, period.
Right.
The second step, I think, is thehardest for people to do, is
well, accountability is prettyhard too.
But that's a big step, and Ithink the one that's hard is the
follow-through.
Because, and this is something Istruggle with a lot is
accountability for a wrongdoingmeans shit.
(13:37):
Right.
Like, oh I'm sorry, and that'swonderful, but and
accountability is wonderful, butif you don't follow through with
stopping the action or puttinggenuine um effort into changing
that action, your accountabilitymeans nothing to me.
So then it comes down to okay,how do I move past this?
(14:01):
If this is a recurring behavior,um, and this person doesn't
adjust it or whatever, okay, howdo I move past it then?
Because I don't think I canforgive that because this
behavior is going to continue tohappen.
Right.
I'm going to continue to be hurtby this behavior.
(14:25):
Yep.
So what's the next step?
Well, here's where I've kind oftried to take it is I have to
accept that either this personcannot, is not capable of making
that adjustment, or simply willnot for whatever reason.
Right.
And I don't necessarily have toknow the why not, the why or why
(14:48):
not.
It would help.
Yeah.
But it comes down to am I askingtoo much?
Is this too much to ask?
Is that something maybe I needto reassess?
Um, or is it simply ashortcoming of that person?
Yeah.
Because nobody's perfect, myselfincluded.
(15:10):
Right.
But if there's something thatsomeone's a behavior that
someone continues to do to youthat they're aware of, they do
take accountability for, butthere's no follow-up, well, what
what's my process then?
Because they've they've done thehard stop there.
They say, okay, I takeaccountability.
(15:32):
Maybe they say they're going toadjust the behavior and don't,
maybe they take accountabilityand say, hey, this is something
I can't change.
Well, then I have to do the workto be okay with that.
Now what does that mean?
Yeah, is being okay withsomething forgiveness, though.
And that's what it that's whatwe're talking about here.
Is I I don't know.
(15:54):
Because to me, I don't knowwhere the disconnect is there,
because I can't put words to itas far as like why is
forgiveness not just letting go?
Why is forgiveness notforgetting?
You know, why are those not umsynonymous with each other to
me?
And I I can't label that.
Okay.
It just doesn't feel right to dothat.
(16:17):
It doesn't feel right.
It doesn't feel right to callthem the same thing.
SPEAKER_00 (16:20):
Yeah.
No, I would agree.
Wholeheartedly.
Because okay, so let's take itback to a very black and white
example.
Your your grandmother committedsuicide.
Yeah.
That's pretty final.
There's there's not going to bea change in behavior, there's
not going to be a change inoutcome.
There's there's nothing that canreally change about that except
you.
(16:41):
Right.
So how do you offer forgivenessfor something you're just stuck
with?
SPEAKER_01 (16:49):
Yeah.
Okay, great.
So I mean, to me, maybe you justanswered the question for me,
really, is that you know, toforgive my grandmother, it came
down to seeing the goodqualities, appreciating the good
times, and seeing the humanityin her.
Now, that's a pretty dark thing,that's a little different than
some other things that might begoing on.
(17:10):
However, I think that can beapplied and almost has to be if
you're going to move on from itor at least cope with it,
however you want to look at it.
Right.
Because to me, a recurringbehavior, you're coping with it.
Right.
You're not, you're not um movingon from that.
You can't move on from somethingthat continues to be an issue.
(17:31):
Yeah.
So it comes down to, hey, whatare the good qualities of this
person?
What are the positives they'recontributing to my life, to
other lives?
Because again, nobody's perfect.
No.
So it comes down to, okay, Ihave to accept whatever this
(17:52):
person is capable of or willingto do.
And if they contribute somethingof value and importance to other
aspects of our lives, then Ithink we have to almost adjust
our own expectations andthinking.
Um and now where's the balancethere?
That's the trouble.
SPEAKER_00 (18:11):
Yeah, because I mean I can go to, you know, uh a more
recent I was leading you intothat.
Yeah, a more recent relationshipin that, you know, um this
person was, you know, uh, Imean, it got argumentative for a
portion of the relationship,which, you know, all
(18:34):
relationships are a little bitof ups and a little bit of
downs.
Um, but in in this particularinstance, it was an extended
period of time, and when therewere issues, you know, it was
spotty at best that I would getthe verbal accountability of,
(18:58):
oh, I'm sorry.
So you wouldn't even get verbalaccountability.
Not a lot, very not always.
Um, like I said, there was a lotmore argument arguing going on
than problem solving.
Uh and and you know, that waswhere I started to just have to
walk away from situations whichto her, I'm sure, felt like
(19:19):
abandonment.
Right.
Felt like I wasn't, you know,staying in.
But this is the thing.
It's like you you go through anykind of therapy and people talk
about, well, when things getheated, you have to be able to
put a pin in it and walk awayfrom it till you know emotions
have come down.
SPEAKER_01 (19:40):
And 'cause arguments can become constructive in those
head spaces.
SPEAKER_00 (19:44):
Yeah.
Um but but a lot of times, youknow, that really is defined by
perspective.
True.
For me, I'm walking away topreserve a peace and to hold on
to civility.
And to the other person, I'mjust walking away.
Right.
SPEAKER_01 (20:02):
So they don't give you that grace.
Huh?
They're not giving you the graceto understand, hey, right, this
is his process to make sure hecan come back and we can have a
constructive conversation.
Yep.
Yeah.
Okay.
So what was what would be theother individual's approach to
um compromising in thatsituation?
(20:23):
What?
So like you're saying you wouldwalk away in arguments.
What was what was thisindividual's um approach to or
did they have one?
SPEAKER_00 (20:32):
Well, the the approach ended up being, oh,
well, how come you get to endthe argument?
How come you get to say whenit's enough?
How come you get to like it wasa control tactic instead?
It wasn't gonna work.
Well, it was more baiting intomore arguments.
So um and and where I was goingwith all of this is that you
(20:55):
know, this person, you and Iboth know this person very well.
And she is a class act,beautiful soul, very, very
sweet, very much cares aboutother people, has her own
damage, obviously, you know.
I mean, we've all been throughtrauma, right?
(21:15):
Um, but with her, uh she incertain situations where she
feels like something is someoneis being critical of her
specifically, you know, not notjust critiquing or, you know,
asking for what you need, toher, it would come across as
(21:39):
being critical.
Right.
And when that happened, it wasnever an acceptance, it was very
rarely an acceptance.
And that accountability pieceof, oh, I'm sorry.
Uh a lot of times it was saidsarcastically, oh, I'm so sorry.
And see, that's that's uh we weall know that's not a real
(22:02):
sorry, but the times that it wasa real sorry, um, that I
genuinely felt that apologeticnature come through, yeah, there
was no follow-through.
And so it just happened againand again and again.
Right and again.
And at a certain point, youknow, we're all familiar with
boundaries.
You put up a boundary and say,hey, look, I'm no longer going
(22:24):
to allow access to X orwhatever, right?
Right.
And, you know, that's justupping the ante on abandonment
for somebody who already feelsthat.
Yeah.
So uh, I mean, again, this stuffis uh therapy speak and whatnot
is useful in as much as itserves your um event, you know,
(22:51):
whatever's going on.
Sure.
But it's definitely going to belabeled through perspective.
Yep.
So when we're talking aboutforgiveness, right?
Um if you're in a relationshipwith somebody, they do something
to you, um, and you're they'relike, oh, I'm so sorry.
You immediately want to forgivethis person, right?
(23:12):
Oh, yeah, yeah.
But then if you don't set aboundary for the next time it
happens, you're allowing it tohappen.
unknown (23:20):
Right.
SPEAKER_00 (23:21):
They don't and so it's this, you know, what what's
that oroboros, the snake eatingitself?
Yeah.
Like it just can't you're eyes.
SPEAKER_01 (23:30):
But then, okay, so this person keeps doing the
behaviors, they takeaccountability that, hey, I'm
doing this behavior.
Right.
Whether they say they'll changeit or not, let's be real, this
person probably won't.
If we can see the pattern, it'snot going to change.
So the boundary isn'tnecessarily you put a boundary
on this person.
(23:51):
I think you have to put aboundary mentally or emotionally
almost on yourself.
SPEAKER_00 (23:57):
Well, and that's the best way to describe it.
Being able to say, well, this iswhat I will accept and this is
what I won't accept.
That's a boundary.
Is a boundary, but it depends onperspective, sure, could be um
cold shoulder.
You know, could be, yeah, youknow, I'm I'm going to turn my
(24:20):
back on you.
SPEAKER_01 (24:22):
Yeah.
Yeah.
I I and I think it depends onthe dynamic of that
relationship.
I know certain um friends in mylife, there have been very stark
um boundaries where I've justbeen like, all right, I'm done
with you because you're notreciprocating anything back to
me.
So it's just look, I love you,but I'm done.
(24:42):
I'm done being hurt by you.
So that boundary to thatindividual or those individuals
is a hard cut.
Yeah.
But it's in your court now.
SPEAKER_00 (24:51):
Sometimes it very much serves the greater good to
go no contact.
SPEAKER_01 (24:57):
And really is having your peace.
Right.
Because you know what, theydon't seem to be worried about
it anyway.
SPEAKER_00 (25:03):
Well, I don't know that I've ever truly forgiven
anybody who's hurt me on a levelwhere I needed forgiveness.
Because mostly what I've had todo is walk away from it.
Right, right.
You know, when I when I look atrelationships, and let's say one
(25:23):
person wrongs another.
Yeah.
I mean, I think I know how youare about this, but to me,
accountability is not hard.
If I know that I have fucked up,I will be front and center to
apologize.
And then my next thought is,okay, how do I not hurt this
(25:45):
person again?
Because I genuinely care aboutthem.
Exactly.
Now, that's the person you careabout.
There are Karen's in the world,obviously, that that interact
with us as well.
Sure.
And and so the other approachis, I mean, I don't give a fuck
about you.
So why would I I mean, I'll sayI'm sorry because I certainly
(26:07):
don't just walk around hurtingpeople.
But why do I have to go out ofmy way to rectify?
Well, and that's the thing is ifthere isn't value in the
relationship, I guarantee I'mnot gonna bend over backwards to
atone for someone who's so, youknow.
Obliv on your radar.
Right, NPC.
(26:27):
Yeah.
Non-player character in my life.
SPEAKER_01 (26:30):
Normally I just kill NPC.
SPEAKER_00 (26:31):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (26:31):
I mean, Grand Theft Auto.
SPEAKER_00 (26:33):
I'm just seeing your videos.
SPEAKER_01 (26:35):
You know, yeah, you have.
SPEAKER_00 (26:37):
I'm just gonna get rid of this guy.
Blap.
SPEAKER_01 (26:39):
Yeah, I mean, it's what they're there for.
You just no.
SPEAKER_00 (26:42):
Yeah.
But but but I think there aretwo, there's those.
Okay, those are the two likeblack and white versions of
that.
And there's of course spectrumin the middle of that.
But you have to think about whatyour expectations can be based
on the relationships.
The strength and the and thedynamic of relationships.
(27:03):
I mean a friendship, a marriage,a relationship.
I've I think my thing, like likeI said, I don't think that I've
ever really forgiven anyone,which I'm gonna have to go do
some work and unpack a fewthings on that one.
Um so much to unpack from thispodcast.
But the people yeah, but thepeople who really don't matter,
(27:27):
it's really just a fuck you andI let it go.
Yeah.
Because I won't give themaccess, right?
Right.
So so that's how you protectyourself from those people.
And that's really what you'retrying to do with forgiveness
too.
Yeah.
But is it genuinely forgivenessif you just walk away from it?
SPEAKER_01 (27:44):
I mean, are okay, let's even say, are humans
capable of true forgiveness?
SPEAKER_00 (27:50):
I think that's an excellent positive.
I I don't know.
I mean, okay, because you youhave to have two highly
developed people to end in whatwe customarily call forgiveness.
But if you if you, the listener,think back over your life, and
the deepest hurts are from thepeople who are closest to us.
(28:12):
Which probably are gonna be forthe most part.
Okay, so those are the peopleyou want to forgive because you
genuinely care about thesepeople and you genuinely love
them.
Right.
How many of those people steppedup with um accountability?
Step one, yeah.
Right?
They said, I'm sorry, which isthe easier of the two, and so
many people struggle with justthat.
(28:33):
Accountability for most peopleis uncomfortable, which which
kills because we're all humanbeings, we're all fallible,
we're all heir to God.
I know.
So why is it such a leap for youto turn to someone you say you
care about?
And I believe probably do.
And apologize and take ownershipof the fact that you hurt this
(28:54):
person.
Even if you have to express inthe same breath, I certainly did
not mean to hurt you, but I takefull responsibility for the fact
that I did.
SPEAKER_01 (29:04):
That's I mean, I would think at least that would
be a natural thing to do.
It it's a it and it like yousaid, it's step one.
SPEAKER_00 (29:12):
Right.
That is that is that has to bestep one.
The first step.
Because essentially you'reoutlining that you recognize
there's a problem.
Yep.
I caused this problem.
It is now on me to take this anddo something with it.
And do something about it,right?
Atonement.
Atonement, thank you.
I knew it was another A-word,but no, atonement to take that
(29:35):
to the next step and genuinelymake amends with someone, I feel
like it's once someone has madeamends that that's when
forgiveness happens.
unknown (29:45):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (29:45):
Because you're like, oh, I see the change.
Yeah.
That's forgiveness.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (29:49):
I agree.
SPEAKER_00 (29:50):
Don't think it's forgiveness without that piece.
SPEAKER_01 (29:52):
I agree.
I think it it takes the theeffort from the other person to
atone before true forgivenesscan happen.
Because if that person doesn't,if that person doesn't adjust
the behavior, right, then whatare you gonna say?
SPEAKER_00 (30:06):
I think we're gonna have to come I've I've come up
with a new term.
Okay.
So you've got forgiveness andthen you've got forgetness.
Forgetness?
Forgetness, yes.
I forgetness you.
SPEAKER_01 (30:17):
TM.
TM Tony.
Trademark.
Trademark Tony.
T T M.
Yeah.
TMT.
It's dynamite.
Oi.
Oi.
Okay.
Uh you know what's interestingthough?
Is um, no, we mentioned takingaccountability is the first
step.
Here's my thing.
SPEAKER_00 (30:35):
I think I can overlook accountability for
atonement.
If somebody atones, I don't needan I'm sorry, just correct the
behavior.
Yeah.
As long as I don't hear I'msorry you feel that way.
SPEAKER_01 (30:49):
Uh oh yeah, don't get me sharp.
Yeah, fuck you with that shit.
There's forgiveness, forgetness,and fucking muteness.
Um, the three Fs of forgiveness.
But I do like that forgetness,though.
SPEAKER_00 (31:03):
I like that because I think that's that's what most
of us do.
There you go, forgetness.
SPEAKER_01 (31:09):
But you know, that's the thing, is I think I couldn't
live with the bitch, so Iforgetness to her.
No.
SPEAKER_00 (31:14):
I like it.
I like it.
Yeah.
No, that was not very good.
SPEAKER_01 (31:17):
Uh we'll do better.
SPEAKER_00 (31:19):
It's a little, I mean, it's a little gender
war-ish.
Yeah, we're not doing that,remember?
No, we're not doing that.
Not on this sense.
SPEAKER_01 (31:24):
We are not doing that.
I think forgiveness, forgetness,fuck her, fuck himness, whatever
the fuck we came up with.
Leave all that behind in orderto move on or to cope, right?
SPEAKER_00 (31:38):
That person won't adjust the behavior.
Well, and and let's talk aboutthat for a second, too.
Because ultimately, that is whatthe forgiveness slash forgetness
path is.
Yeah.
Is an ability to cope with somehurt, some harm.
Whether it's one that's done.
SPEAKER_01 (31:56):
Whether one, whether it's one that continues to
repeat itself or one that was sobold in the past.
Yeah.
Like yours.
Yeah.
That you can't just throw thatshit away.
Nope.
SPEAKER_00 (32:09):
Not really.
Nope.
So, I mean, deeper hurts likethat definitely don't just go
away.
And I don't care what anybodysays about time.
Was it time heals all wounds?
Time heals all wounds.
I I think Maybe if you developAlzheimer's.
Alzheimer's?
Alzheimer's disease.
Alzheimer's disease, that mightdo it.
(32:30):
I I feel like, you know, and andI put the the F word out there.
I feel like I don't think awound so deep, you know, like I
don't know how you could eversay your last recollection of
your grandmother could besomething you could heal.
SPEAKER_01 (32:53):
I don't think I can fully heal from it.
But again, it I think there'sreframing to that one.
Sure.
SPEAKER_00 (33:00):
And and I think time with reframing oh, it's taken
can build a cottage over the topof the big bloody mess.
Right.
Literally.
But you know what's inside thecottage.
Sure.
Sure.
You know, and it it really ismental gymnastics to get
yourself to be able to cope.
(33:20):
I mean, again, it's coming on 15years.
SPEAKER_01 (33:23):
Yeah, no small order there.
And I'm still, like I said, Ithink about every day, and it
was a wee I was young.
So, I mean, that's the thing, isthat it's taken this long, and
I've worked on this for years atthis point.
And I can't tell you what theactual breakthrough truly was.
Like, truly, I think probably itis time is part of it.
(33:45):
And approaching it through musicwas a part of it, but being in a
mindset where I could had toalso be part of it.
I'm not so sure this podcastdidn't contribute a lot to that
as well.
Just talking about it and andgetting feedback and things.
So this podcast did a number onme.
I mean, honestly, uh I foundtherapeutic benefit in doing
this, and there's also beentimes where honestly it it's
(34:07):
it's been a challenge because ofwhat we've talked about and
maybe brought some things tolight that I'm like, well, fuck
myself over this.
So, and that's what this is allreally meant to be, truly, is to
challenge people, validate, andeverything in between.
Um and not judge.
That's the big one, and which ishard.
It's hard not to judge, um, no,especially kind of over these
(34:29):
hurts if we want to tie that in.
SPEAKER_00 (34:31):
Yeah.
Uh no, no judgment.
The only judgment is when peopleuse their uh diagnosis as an
excuse, right?
I've got a big pet peep aboutthat.
That's a big pet peep for myfriend here.
Um, but yeah, I think, andthat's one of the harms I think
therapy has actually done, notto introduce a whole new fresh
topic, but just the idea thatthere's so much terminology and
(34:54):
so many ways that you can be avictim in something, and to not
really truly look at thisforgiveness piece and look at
the fact that it is a copingmechanism, right?
You are trying to help peopleget through something, not
immerse them in it, not stickthem in it, not turn them into a
(35:16):
victim.
Right.
Right.
Therapy should be something thathelps you move through, move
past to give you the ability tohopefully regain some level of
higher functioning without, youknow, past harms pulling you
down every day.
Right.
SPEAKER_01 (35:35):
So forgiveness is about coping, not forgetting.
SPEAKER_00 (35:38):
Well, and it's it's interesting that we've, you
know, gone about this for almosta year now, and we're just now
getting around to talking aboutforgiveness as an episode.
Like honestly, I've beenstruggling with that in in a
several aspects of my life.
But if you think about it,that's why people go to therapy.
Ultimately, almost other people.
(36:00):
Right.
Forgive yourself, forgive thepast, forgive your partner,
forgive like it's it really istruly the story arc of therapy
is we start here and we end inforgiveness.
Yeah.
The ability to cope because wecan move past some things.
Right.
(36:20):
But I don't think any of us havereally had a deep conversation,
and I don't think I ever thoughtabout it before tonight.
The idea of forgetness notequating forgiveness.
SPEAKER_01 (36:35):
Yeah, I mean, I've thought that for a long time.
unknown (36:37):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (36:37):
I very much never align the same thing.
SPEAKER_00 (36:40):
I mean, I can remember being a kid and my
parents outlining hey, if youhold on to this, you're the one
who is harmed.
Right?
So you have to forgive.
Right.
And that allows you freedom.
You're allowed to move past thisthen.
SPEAKER_01 (37:00):
What's hard about that for me is the fact that
then you're letting that personwin.
It does.
They get away with God, I canremember thinking the same
thing.
Oh, it is to me.
It's like, oh, okay.
Well, they get to keep thatbehavior.
You can't let's say they're outof your life now.
You keep get to be a bastard,and I just gonna And I get to, I
(37:22):
just have to be like, okay,well, it's like, A, um, that's
not fair to the person who waswronged.
Forgive them, father.
They not know how they know notwhat they do.
Yeah.
Um But the other thing is Youand your religion.
Do they deserve it?
SPEAKER_00 (37:39):
Oh, hell no, they don't.
But that's the thing is you'reyou're sold a bill of goods that
says you deserve to forgivethem.
Yeah, they turn it on its head,don't they?
Which is a bit of a mind fuck.
It really truly isn'tforgiveness.
I've had we'll say two reallybig hurts in my life, and then a
(38:02):
third who was just a pecker.
She was just a fuckhead, youknow.
I I mean, I don't think shecould have done better where she
was at, right?
But, you know, yeah as aneurotypical you you could
fucking do better for sure.
Yeah.
(38:22):
So, but those three people, andI think about my forgiveness,
and I'm putting air quotes outthere for those of you not
watching, the forgiveness that Ioffered them is really just
putting it in a canister andsending it to the back room and
(38:46):
not working through it, notgetting any level of
accountability or any level ofatonement at all from these
people.
So as we sit here, I don't knowif I can call it forgiveness.
I agree, yeah.
Especially recently, I have hada lot of daydreaming about
(39:08):
having confrontational momentswhere oh, yeah, a little uh what
do they call that?
Peruvian necktie.
That's it.
That's the one.
Yeah, yeah.
Um, but no, it just it it amazesme, you know, and I think it's
only gotten worse.
I think relationships havegotten so juxtaposed.
(39:32):
If you're a male, you see it acertain way.
If you're a female, you see it acertain way.
Yeah, and those no longer align.
Not at all.
Not at all.
Yeah, okay.
So let's talk about this.
We have the three brains, right?
We've talked about you've gotyour cerebral, you've got your
heart.
And your penis.
And no.
unknown (39:51):
You fucker.
SPEAKER_00 (39:52):
Yeah, that was actually really good.
Yeah, men have four.
No, but you get so you've gotyour brain, you got your heart,
you got your your gut, yourstomach, right?
Intuition.
Right.
I think at the intuition level,and sometimes at the heart
level, depending upon howdeveloped the person is.
But regardless, I think at gutlevel, people know.
(40:14):
Yeah.
You know, yeah.
Like you know when you've hurtsomebody, even if you both just
dance around it and you don't,oh yeah, it it's kicking.
Around in there.
SPEAKER_01 (40:23):
You can't have an intimate relationship with
somebody.
So here's the question (40:26):
Is you know, you obviously, as you
mentioned, have had arelationship for 20-some years.
Is it okay that she only leavesit here?
Are you okay with it that itprobably stayed here?
Does it bother you that shewould not have okay, you guys
(40:46):
divorced, that was so many yearsago?
I don't think you can call itforgiveness.
SPEAKER_00 (40:52):
But I think by and large.
If you put those two things ona, you know, out of a hundred,
right?
I think you might be lucky tohave 10% be true forgiveness.
Like lucky to have 10%.
Yeah.
The other 90% is gonna beforgetness.
(41:13):
You're gonna have to just tuckit away.
People aren't gonna takeaccountability for it.
They're gonna call you crazy.
You know, they're gonna tell youyou're imagining it or you made
it up.
Being dramatic.
Or you did right.
You're just being forgiven.
SPEAKER_01 (41:27):
You're just being dramatic or blowing out of
proportion.
So, you know.
Maybe we can't actually break itaround to I I think a lot of
forgiveness is gonna come down,I mean, obviously, to ourselves,
but it it may not look like whatit's thrown out there, you know,
as the the romanticized versionversion of forgiveness.
SPEAKER_00 (41:47):
Oh, I feel so much better.
You've just you've you've healedme.
SPEAKER_01 (41:50):
Yeah, that shit don't.
That doesn't exist.
No.
So I think the work isn't Idon't think you can expect the
other person to do the work.
Now, if they do, wonderful.
And I there are people who doit, and like I said, maybe 10%.
Yeah, and and and you know,certain relationships, there may
be some things that give andsome things that don't.
(42:11):
You know, it doesn't always haveto be black and white that way
either.
SPEAKER_00 (42:14):
Okay, and and I'm just gonna throw this out there
for for any of our marriedlisteners.
I mean, imagine yourrelationship.
Oh, you know, and and you know,everybody goes through ups and
downs, right?
But if you can get to a placewhere you and your partner are
so in tune that you understandthat, oh, even if I didn't do
(42:37):
this purposely to hurt you, Ican easily take accountability
by just saying, oh, my bad.
I'm sorry, I genuinely nevermeant to hurt you.
Right.
And then if you had the trust inyour relationship to know that
your partner was then going todo better, like talk about
(42:58):
immediately strengthening yourrelationship.
Yeah, absolutely.
To really truly introduceforgiveness into a relationship,
yeah, like the ability toforgive each other, not forget.
That's the ultimate trust to me.
Absolute ultimate trust.
To know that if you hurt me, Iknow that you are truly going to
try better next time.
(43:21):
I agree.
I I think that is one of theultimate.
I think that's actually really,really solid takeaway.
Uh I agree.
I think I'm gonna have to trythat in my next relationship.
Next one.
Yes.
There you go.
I think it would be a reallygreat talking point.
You know, I mean, not everybodywants to lay down and, you know,
(43:43):
like, oh, hey, babe, it's theend of the day.
Let's have a talk about ourrelationship.
SPEAKER_01 (43:47):
Oh, I agree with you.
And and the other thing is Ifirmly believe in couples
therapy.
I think that can be an excellentthing.
The problem is for you, not forme.
I'm just kidding.
I argue that couples therapy isis good for about every couple
as long as both parties go inwilling to take accountability
for their side in it.
SPEAKER_02 (44:08):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (44:08):
You gotta be honest.
You have to.
Yeah.
Because I personally know acouple of couples who have done
couples therapy, and one of themimmediately stopped because they
were too uncomfortable.
Too many.
Actually, I think both of thesecouples had this happen.
Um, they were too uncomfortablewith the uh realities or or
(44:29):
whatever of that issue.
SPEAKER_00 (44:32):
Oh no, I I I myself I've had a I had a partner who
the the therapist had had knownme for maybe 20 minutes and
described me as love wrapped infrustration.
And then the rest of the theappointment, the therapist
(44:53):
proceeded to point out thethings that this person, her
client, had been doing to mejust in the you know 20-some
minutes that she had talked withus, and we never went back ever.
Really and that comes down tothe whole juxtaposition of Yeah,
yeah, yeah.
Which anyway.
You don't listen to the fish tolearn how to catch fish.
(45:16):
That's right.
You learn how to escape thenets.
Yeah, I just don't think thatthat's ever gonna get solved.
I think we really just need tocome to the middle.
So the idea is that oh, we'reall fucking people.
I have my frustrations withwomen as a man.
Right.
But as a thinking person, I knowthat we're gonna have to come
(45:38):
together and you know, not to betogether on the cracker.
Cheeky not to be cheeky aboutit, but ultimately we really are
going to have to forgive andthen equally take accountability
and perform atonement so that wecan heal those issues and move
(46:00):
forward.
Here it is, Bottom Huey beat the mental health out
of it.
Seems like it's been a minute.
It's been a minute since you andI have done one together.
SPEAKER_00 (00:31):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (00:31):
We are past due.
It's good to be back.
Good to be back, just the two ofus.
Tonight's episode isAccountability, Forgiveness, and
Atonement.
Gonna get deep tonight.
Gonna get deep in there.
Real dirty.
Alright.
So I had the idea for this one.
You did.
(00:51):
We talked about it, and uh,think this man here has a few
opinions.
Opinions are like assholes,everybody's got one.
SPEAKER_00 (01:02):
And they stink.
And they stink most often.
Most often, yes.
Most often they do, yes.
So why don't you start?
Since you kind of you had thethe genesis of this idea.
Genesis.
SPEAKER_01 (01:15):
Um yes.
I am Marvel or sorry, Bottom HuiJesus.
SPEAKER_00 (01:21):
Anyway, okay, so you had the idea, forgiveness, and
and you kind of outlined wherethis came from.
Do you want to outline?
SPEAKER_01 (01:29):
I would love to, because they're gonna need the
outline pretty much.
We had the conversation.
Um this is your segue.
My segue.
SPEAKER_00 (01:38):
So please segue, sir.
SPEAKER_01 (01:39):
I I love seging.
SPEAKER_00 (01:41):
Yeah?
SPEAKER_01 (01:41):
Pegging and segging in the way that we like.
So you know, mentioned severaltimes on on the show about my
grandmother who committedsuicide um when I was 16 in
2009.
Yeah.
Um, so I'm 33 now.
Um, that's uh 14 years ago.
I'm I'm not good with math.
(02:01):
I'm drinking.
Yeah.
Not the math podcast.
We certainly said that a lot.
No.
Anyway, uh many, many years agoat this point, and you've heard
me on the show talk about howangry I am about it and how
rightly so.
You know, things things uhthat's a very complicated um
situation.
And a lot of r um is it uh uhresidual effects uh from that
(02:27):
have continued to Well and andthe short s for the people who
haven't heard the story, the shthe Episode seven.
SPEAKER_00 (02:35):
Yeah, the long short of it is that she knew that you
were coming over, you and yourmother were scheduled to come
check on her.
Yeah.
And her words were uh I'll makesure to be ready for you.
Which sounds so sinister.
It it is in hindsight, yeah.
Knowing what she had waiting foryou.
SPEAKER_01 (02:54):
Yeah, yeah.
And to do that to your16-year-old uh grandson, who
frankly we were very close.
Um it's a little fucked up, alittle messed up.
But let me let me tell you, soyou know, a lot of sessions in
therapy have been spent on uhforgiveness and the healing
started through music.
I recalled music we used tolisten to together because we
(03:16):
did a lot.
One in particular, I didn'treally understand the depth of
what it could have meant to her.
I am I said by Neil Diamond.
You know that one?
Not not very well.
So I mean, I'm not gonna say Iam I said I I am familiar with
the song, but I have not so youknow I'm deeply Neil uh Diamond
(03:40):
is for an incredible umlyricist.
Oh yeah, and you know, a lot ofhis uh famous songs are kind of
masked by the you know the thegimmick or the hood, you know
right.
So right, but then you've gotlike Holly Holy and Love and the
Rocks and I am I said and youknow Hello again.
SPEAKER_00 (04:02):
Hello to see.
Actually, as a kid, I was a hugeNeil Diamond fan because of that
the remake of the jazz singer.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (04:11):
I mean they just recently did a musical of that.
Oh, did they?
Like uh he just wrote one, andit's it starts with him in
therapy.
Wait, and there's there's aisn't there a Hugh Jackman that
he's impersonating him now too?
I was so disappointed when I sawthe preview for that.
I was like, they're doing abiopic on, and it's like, damn
it.
They're doing a biopic onsomebody's impersonator, yeah.
(04:34):
It could be good, but anyway,the the new musical is is Neil,
it starts off with him intherapy.
Oh wow, and he's talking abouthis music and and his loneliness
and and isolation.
I mean, Neil, come on thefucking show before you die,
you're like 8,000 years old.
With with that song, you know,it's a lot about isolation and
and um feeling alone, and andone line that resonates with me
(04:58):
is I'm not one who likes toswear, but I've never liked the
sound of being alone.
And she was somebody who, youknow, once my grandparents
divorced, she never was um trulywith anybody else.
And she probably would have beena difficult person to um live
with as a partner after that.
Um just because it can be.
(05:19):
And just be well, just becauseyou know, she had she had
established her own lifestyleand was a very independent
person and all those things.
But you know, I think I think welook back and and probably think
that it would have been a goodthing for her to have found
somebody.
But uh in the end, you know, itjust came down to re revisiting
her humanity.
I didn't realize that was a bigbarrier to me.
(05:42):
I could reflect and think aboutall the great times we had
because there were a ton ofthem, um, and all the things she
did for me and generous and kindand supportive and all those
things.
What have we talked about a loton suicide on this show is that
you know people do that, theyleave nothing but devastation in
their wake, and you know, theydon't help anything.
You know, they think what wesaid is you know, people in that
(06:05):
state think they're the burdenin life.
They think people will be betteroff without them.
Right.
They think you're couldn't befurther.
And the way I've kind of umsimplified that is you think
you're the burden in life, butyou're actually the burden in
death.
Um so but it is hard to get pastthat if you're living after
that.
For sure.
(06:25):
Um so I it all came down tore-examining her humanity beyond
that.
Um, and it's really helped, andit's helped in other situations
too for forgiveness.
But that that's where this wholetopic started.
Yeah.
And I know you had a differentdirection you wanted to go into,
(06:47):
which is gonna spark a lot ofdifferent takes on this.
SPEAKER_00 (06:51):
To me, it's like, okay, most of us hear the old
adage, you know, forgive them,otherwise you're carrying it
around.
Right.
Right.
So the analogy is that you arethe warden at the prison you are
holding them in.
Right.
You know, your hatred and youranger and all those things.
But the problem with that isthat you have to show up to the
(07:13):
prison where they are every dayto keep checking in on that.
Right.
So the prisoner is living yourlife, instead of living your
forgiveness piece allows you notto have to go to the prison, or
at least that's what we're told.
Right.
So, so my talking point on thisone is if we're told to just let
(07:35):
it go, is that reallyforgiveness?
Because it's so rare that you'regoing to approach someone,
right?
They take accountability for it,right, and then they change what
that behavior is to atone forthe wrong.
Right.
So that you can then say, Iforgive you.
(07:55):
Right.
Forgiveness should be thisrelease, right?
Yep.
It should be releasing of thetension created by whatever
event happened to cause thisbreak.
SPEAKER_01 (08:09):
And sometimes it's an occurrence that continues to
happen.
It's a hurt that is repeated.
SPEAKER_00 (08:15):
Right.
Yeah.
And is it really forgiveness, oris it just letting it go?
In other words, putting it in acanister and stick it in the
back of the attic so you forgiveand forget.
If feel like you've been sold alie, all of us, yeah, to accept
that forgiveness is forgetting.
(08:37):
It's not.
Because I think it's twodifferent things.
Oh, I agree with you.
And and the reason I say that,and you know this, uh-huh,
because we just did an episodeon borderline borderline
personality disorder.
And I was one of the lucky oneswho got to marry one.
And congratulations.
Yeah, thank you.
(08:57):
Uh it was yeah.
There were some good times.
Such a such a needle in ahaystack lottery win there.
Um well, the needles wereactually poking me.
SPEAKER_01 (09:08):
Yeah, and it was a whole haystack of needles, so um
it was it was like acupuncture,but it it didn't help.
It caused more pain.
SPEAKER_00 (09:17):
Yeah, it was more like stabbing.
SPEAKER_01 (09:20):
Um He was a horrible acupuncturist.
SPEAKER_00 (09:23):
Oh fuck.
Malpractice.
Yeah, for sure.
It hit every nerve.
But that happened to me over adecade ago.
And the um the actual harm wasdone as far back as let's say
2015 um or so, somewhere aroundin there.
(09:45):
Um and and I thought, well, Iwill immerse myself and finding
everything out about it andfiguring out how I can get
myself out of this.
And I pulled myself out of thistrench, and you know, then I was
healed, right?
And then we had this episode,and I was fine through the
episode.
Well, um, but woke up the nextmorning and really truly was
(10:10):
struggling with a lot of itagain, which really kind of
brings that that issue to theforefront for me.
It's like, was it actualforgiveness or was it just
letting it go?
And if and if we're going tocall letting go forgiveness, how
(10:30):
how do we deal with it when itrears its ugly head again?
Because there's always going tobe triggers.
SPEAKER_02 (10:36):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (10:36):
Even though I spent a good six months to a year out
in the garage punishing myselfwith weights.
Right.
But it was, you know, all thesepeople talking about uh
borderline and how deadly it canbe to your nervous system.
You know, you never, you neverfeel safe in a relationship, you
never truly feel like you havethat connection.
(10:59):
It can, you know, put you onhigh alert for all sorts of
nefarious activities that areactually part of making a real
relationship happen.
So it can it can mess you uppretty bad.
Um but I don't I don't know thatI can say I actually forgave
(11:24):
her.
I don't know if I can.
Not without there being somesort of a conversation, and I
know I'm never gonna get that.
Well, and you've said youwouldn't want to see her face to
face, too.
No, seeing her face to facewould be rough.
Yeah.
Because it would be such a mixlike of hatred and like, oh,
(11:45):
she's back, right?
My body would remember thefeelings, right?
But my head would remember myhead and my heart would remember
the the drama, the yeah.
Yeah.
So I I don't know what that is.
I don't know if that can beconsidered forgiving,
(12:06):
forgiveness to let something go,you know, because if that's the
case, if it's not the same, thenI don't know that I've ever
forgiven anyone who's hurt me tothat level.
SPEAKER_01 (12:17):
Well, see, that's what I was thinking about too,
is because I don't think I don'tthink they are the same.
I don't think they can be.
To me, letting go means youdon't acknowledge that it
happened, and I don't thinkthat's fair to you or the person
that committed the transgressiontowards you.
Yeah.
Um, you know, uh one thing thatthe that came to my mind, you
(12:38):
know, the the three keys tothis, you know, forgiveness is
accountability and thenatonement for it.
But the accountability part ofit is um, you know, it is it's a
wonderful thing to takeaccountability.
SPEAKER_02 (12:49):
Sure.
SPEAKER_01 (12:50):
And, you know, if the person who you've wronged or
continue to hurt, if they'regoing to forgive you, that
person who's doing the wronging,I don't know, I'm probably
phrasing things weird, but theper is going to have to uh take
accountability for it first.
Sure.
So there has to be recognitionthat, oh, I caused a problem.
(13:12):
I caused a problem, right?
And that's the first step, Ithink, period.
Right.
The second step, I think, is thehardest for people to do, is
well, accountability is prettyhard too.
But that's a big step, and Ithink the one that's hard is the
follow-through.
Because, and this is something Istruggle with a lot is
accountability for a wrongdoingmeans shit.
(13:37):
Right.
Like, oh I'm sorry, and that'swonderful, but and
accountability is wonderful, butif you don't follow through with
stopping the action or puttinggenuine um effort into changing
that action, your accountabilitymeans nothing to me.
So then it comes down to okay,how do I move past this?
(14:01):
If this is a recurring behavior,um, and this person doesn't
adjust it or whatever, okay, howdo I move past it then?
Because I don't think I canforgive that because this
behavior is going to continue tohappen.
Right.
I'm going to continue to be hurtby this behavior.
(14:25):
Yep.
So what's the next step?
Well, here's where I've kind oftried to take it is I have to
accept that either this personcannot, is not capable of making
that adjustment, or simply willnot for whatever reason.
Right.
And I don't necessarily have toknow the why not, the why or why
(14:48):
not.
It would help.
Yeah.
But it comes down to am I askingtoo much?
Is this too much to ask?
Is that something maybe I needto reassess?
Um, or is it simply ashortcoming of that person?
Yeah.
Because nobody's perfect, myselfincluded.
(15:10):
Right.
But if there's something thatsomeone's a behavior that
someone continues to do to youthat they're aware of, they do
take accountability for, butthere's no follow-up, well, what
what's my process then?
Because they've they've done thehard stop there.
They say, okay, I takeaccountability.
(15:32):
Maybe they say they're going toadjust the behavior and don't,
maybe they take accountabilityand say, hey, this is something
I can't change.
Well, then I have to do the workto be okay with that.
Now what does that mean?
Yeah, is being okay withsomething forgiveness, though.
And that's what it that's whatwe're talking about here.
Is I I don't know.
(15:54):
Because to me, I don't knowwhere the disconnect is there,
because I can't put words to itas far as like why is
forgiveness not just letting go?
Why is forgiveness notforgetting?
You know, why are those not umsynonymous with each other to
me?
And I I can't label that.
Okay.
It just doesn't feel right to dothat.
(16:17):
It doesn't feel right.
It doesn't feel right to callthem the same thing.
SPEAKER_00 (16:20):
Yeah.
No, I would agree.
Wholeheartedly.
Because okay, so let's take itback to a very black and white
example.
Your your grandmother committedsuicide.
Yeah.
That's pretty final.
There's there's not going to bea change in behavior, there's
not going to be a change inoutcome.
There's there's nothing that canreally change about that except
you.
(16:41):
Right.
So how do you offer forgivenessfor something you're just stuck
with?
SPEAKER_01 (16:49):
Yeah.
Okay, great.
So I mean, to me, maybe you justanswered the question for me,
really, is that you know, toforgive my grandmother, it came
down to seeing the goodqualities, appreciating the good
times, and seeing the humanityin her.
Now, that's a pretty dark thing,that's a little different than
some other things that might begoing on.
(17:10):
However, I think that can beapplied and almost has to be if
you're going to move on from itor at least cope with it,
however you want to look at it.
Right.
Because to me, a recurringbehavior, you're coping with it.
Right.
You're not, you're not um movingon from that.
You can't move on from somethingthat continues to be an issue.
(17:31):
Yeah.
So it comes down to, hey, whatare the good qualities of this
person?
What are the positives they'recontributing to my life, to
other lives?
Because again, nobody's perfect.
No.
So it comes down to, okay, Ihave to accept whatever this
(17:52):
person is capable of or willingto do.
And if they contribute somethingof value and importance to other
aspects of our lives, then Ithink we have to almost adjust
our own expectations andthinking.
Um and now where's the balancethere?
That's the trouble.
SPEAKER_00 (18:11):
Yeah, because I mean I can go to, you know, uh a more
recent I was leading you intothat.
Yeah, a more recent relationshipin that, you know, um this
person was, you know, uh, Imean, it got argumentative for a
portion of the relationship,which, you know, all
(18:34):
relationships are a little bitof ups and a little bit of
downs.
Um, but in in this particularinstance, it was an extended
period of time, and when therewere issues, you know, it was
spotty at best that I would getthe verbal accountability of,
(18:58):
oh, I'm sorry.
So you wouldn't even get verbalaccountability.
Not a lot, very not always.
Um, like I said, there was a lotmore argument arguing going on
than problem solving.
Uh and and you know, that waswhere I started to just have to
walk away from situations whichto her, I'm sure, felt like
(19:19):
abandonment.
Right.
Felt like I wasn't, you know,staying in.
But this is the thing.
It's like you you go through anykind of therapy and people talk
about, well, when things getheated, you have to be able to
put a pin in it and walk awayfrom it till you know emotions
have come down.
SPEAKER_01 (19:40):
And 'cause arguments can become constructive in those
head spaces.
SPEAKER_00 (19:44):
Yeah.
Um but but a lot of times, youknow, that really is defined by
perspective.
True.
For me, I'm walking away topreserve a peace and to hold on
to civility.
And to the other person, I'mjust walking away.
Right.
SPEAKER_01 (20:02):
So they don't give you that grace.
Huh?
They're not giving you the graceto understand, hey, right, this
is his process to make sure hecan come back and we can have a
constructive conversation.
Yep.
Yeah.
Okay.
So what was what would be theother individual's approach to
um compromising in thatsituation?
(20:23):
What?
So like you're saying you wouldwalk away in arguments.
What was what was thisindividual's um approach to or
did they have one?
SPEAKER_00 (20:32):
Well, the the approach ended up being, oh,
well, how come you get to endthe argument?
How come you get to say whenit's enough?
How come you get to like it wasa control tactic instead?
It wasn't gonna work.
Well, it was more baiting intomore arguments.
So um and and where I was goingwith all of this is that you
(20:55):
know, this person, you and Iboth know this person very well.
And she is a class act,beautiful soul, very, very
sweet, very much cares aboutother people, has her own
damage, obviously, you know.
I mean, we've all been throughtrauma, right?
(21:15):
Um, but with her, uh she incertain situations where she
feels like something is someoneis being critical of her
specifically, you know, not notjust critiquing or, you know,
asking for what you need, toher, it would come across as
(21:39):
being critical.
Right.
And when that happened, it wasnever an acceptance, it was very
rarely an acceptance.
And that accountability pieceof, oh, I'm sorry.
Uh a lot of times it was saidsarcastically, oh, I'm so sorry.
And see, that's that's uh we weall know that's not a real
(22:02):
sorry, but the times that it wasa real sorry, um, that I
genuinely felt that apologeticnature come through, yeah, there
was no follow-through.
And so it just happened againand again and again.
Right and again.
And at a certain point, youknow, we're all familiar with
boundaries.
You put up a boundary and say,hey, look, I'm no longer going
(22:24):
to allow access to X orwhatever, right?
Right.
And, you know, that's justupping the ante on abandonment
for somebody who already feelsthat.
Yeah.
So uh, I mean, again, this stuffis uh therapy speak and whatnot
is useful in as much as itserves your um event, you know,
(22:51):
whatever's going on.
Sure.
But it's definitely going to belabeled through perspective.
Yep.
So when we're talking aboutforgiveness, right?
Um if you're in a relationshipwith somebody, they do something
to you, um, and you're they'relike, oh, I'm so sorry.
You immediately want to forgivethis person, right?
(23:12):
Oh, yeah, yeah.
But then if you don't set aboundary for the next time it
happens, you're allowing it tohappen.
unknown (23:20):
Right.
SPEAKER_00 (23:21):
They don't and so it's this, you know, what what's
that oroboros, the snake eatingitself?
Yeah.
Like it just can't you're eyes.
SPEAKER_01 (23:30):
But then, okay, so this person keeps doing the
behaviors, they takeaccountability that, hey, I'm
doing this behavior.
Right.
Whether they say they'll changeit or not, let's be real, this
person probably won't.
If we can see the pattern, it'snot going to change.
So the boundary isn'tnecessarily you put a boundary
on this person.
(23:51):
I think you have to put aboundary mentally or emotionally
almost on yourself.
SPEAKER_00 (23:57):
Well, and that's the best way to describe it.
Being able to say, well, this iswhat I will accept and this is
what I won't accept.
That's a boundary.
Is a boundary, but it depends onperspective, sure, could be um
cold shoulder.
You know, could be, yeah, youknow, I'm I'm going to turn my
(24:20):
back on you.
SPEAKER_01 (24:22):
Yeah.
Yeah.
I I and I think it depends onthe dynamic of that
relationship.
I know certain um friends in mylife, there have been very stark
um boundaries where I've justbeen like, all right, I'm done
with you because you're notreciprocating anything back to
me.
So it's just look, I love you,but I'm done.
(24:42):
I'm done being hurt by you.
So that boundary to thatindividual or those individuals
is a hard cut.
Yeah.
But it's in your court now.
SPEAKER_00 (24:51):
Sometimes it very much serves the greater good to
go no contact.
SPEAKER_01 (24:57):
And really is having your peace.
Right.
Because you know what, theydon't seem to be worried about
it anyway.
SPEAKER_00 (25:03):
Well, I don't know that I've ever truly forgiven
anybody who's hurt me on a levelwhere I needed forgiveness.
Because mostly what I've had todo is walk away from it.
Right, right.
You know, when I when I look atrelationships, and let's say one
(25:23):
person wrongs another.
Yeah.
I mean, I think I know how youare about this, but to me,
accountability is not hard.
If I know that I have fucked up,I will be front and center to
apologize.
And then my next thought is,okay, how do I not hurt this
(25:45):
person again?
Because I genuinely care aboutthem.
Exactly.
Now, that's the person you careabout.
There are Karen's in the world,obviously, that that interact
with us as well.
Sure.
And and so the other approachis, I mean, I don't give a fuck
about you.
So why would I I mean, I'll sayI'm sorry because I certainly
(26:07):
don't just walk around hurtingpeople.
But why do I have to go out ofmy way to rectify?
Well, and that's the thing is ifthere isn't value in the
relationship, I guarantee I'mnot gonna bend over backwards to
atone for someone who's so, youknow.
Obliv on your radar.
Right, NPC.
(26:27):
Yeah.
Non-player character in my life.
SPEAKER_01 (26:30):
Normally I just kill NPC.
SPEAKER_00 (26:31):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (26:31):
I mean, Grand Theft Auto.
SPEAKER_00 (26:33):
I'm just seeing your videos.
SPEAKER_01 (26:35):
You know, yeah, you have.
SPEAKER_00 (26:37):
I'm just gonna get rid of this guy.
Blap.
SPEAKER_01 (26:39):
Yeah, I mean, it's what they're there for.
You just no.
SPEAKER_00 (26:42):
Yeah.
But but but I think there aretwo, there's those.
Okay, those are the two likeblack and white versions of
that.
And there's of course spectrumin the middle of that.
But you have to think about whatyour expectations can be based
on the relationships.
The strength and the and thedynamic of relationships.
(27:03):
I mean a friendship, a marriage,a relationship.
I've I think my thing, like likeI said, I don't think that I've
ever really forgiven anyone,which I'm gonna have to go do
some work and unpack a fewthings on that one.
Um so much to unpack from thispodcast.
But the people yeah, but thepeople who really don't matter,
(27:27):
it's really just a fuck you andI let it go.
Yeah.
Because I won't give themaccess, right?
Right.
So so that's how you protectyourself from those people.
And that's really what you'retrying to do with forgiveness
too.
Yeah.
But is it genuinely forgivenessif you just walk away from it?
SPEAKER_01 (27:44):
I mean, are okay, let's even say, are humans
capable of true forgiveness?
SPEAKER_00 (27:50):
I think that's an excellent positive.
I I don't know.
I mean, okay, because you youhave to have two highly
developed people to end in whatwe customarily call forgiveness.
But if you if you, the listener,think back over your life, and
the deepest hurts are from thepeople who are closest to us.
(28:12):
Which probably are gonna be forthe most part.
Okay, so those are the peopleyou want to forgive because you
genuinely care about thesepeople and you genuinely love
them.
Right.
How many of those people steppedup with um accountability?
Step one, yeah.
Right?
They said, I'm sorry, which isthe easier of the two, and so
many people struggle with justthat.
(28:33):
Accountability for most peopleis uncomfortable, which which
kills because we're all humanbeings, we're all fallible,
we're all heir to God.
I know.
So why is it such a leap for youto turn to someone you say you
care about?
And I believe probably do.
And apologize and take ownershipof the fact that you hurt this
(28:54):
person.
Even if you have to express inthe same breath, I certainly did
not mean to hurt you, but I takefull responsibility for the fact
that I did.
SPEAKER_01 (29:04):
That's I mean, I would think at least that would
be a natural thing to do.
It it's a it and it like yousaid, it's step one.
SPEAKER_00 (29:12):
Right.
That is that is that has to bestep one.
The first step.
Because essentially you'reoutlining that you recognize
there's a problem.
Yep.
I caused this problem.
It is now on me to take this anddo something with it.
And do something about it,right?
Atonement.
Atonement, thank you.
I knew it was another A-word,but no, atonement to take that
(29:35):
to the next step and genuinelymake amends with someone, I feel
like it's once someone has madeamends that that's when
forgiveness happens.
unknown (29:45):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (29:45):
Because you're like, oh, I see the change.
Yeah.
That's forgiveness.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (29:49):
I agree.
SPEAKER_00 (29:50):
Don't think it's forgiveness without that piece.
SPEAKER_01 (29:52):
I agree.
I think it it takes the theeffort from the other person to
atone before true forgivenesscan happen.
Because if that person doesn't,if that person doesn't adjust
the behavior, right, then whatare you gonna say?
SPEAKER_00 (30:06):
I think we're gonna have to come I've I've come up
with a new term.
Okay.
So you've got forgiveness andthen you've got forgetness.
Forgetness?
Forgetness, yes.
I forgetness you.
SPEAKER_01 (30:17):
TM.
TM Tony.
Trademark.
Trademark Tony.
T T M.
Yeah.
TMT.
It's dynamite.
Oi.
Oi.
Okay.
Uh you know what's interestingthough?
Is um, no, we mentioned takingaccountability is the first
step.
Here's my thing.
SPEAKER_00 (30:35):
I think I can overlook accountability for
atonement.
If somebody atones, I don't needan I'm sorry, just correct the
behavior.
Yeah.
As long as I don't hear I'msorry you feel that way.
SPEAKER_01 (30:49):
Uh oh yeah, don't get me sharp.
Yeah, fuck you with that shit.
There's forgiveness, forgetness,and fucking muteness.
Um, the three Fs of forgiveness.
But I do like that forgetness,though.
SPEAKER_00 (31:03):
I like that because I think that's that's what most
of us do.
There you go, forgetness.
SPEAKER_01 (31:09):
But you know, that's the thing, is I think I couldn't
live with the bitch, so Iforgetness to her.
No.
SPEAKER_00 (31:14):
I like it.
I like it.
Yeah.
No, that was not very good.
SPEAKER_01 (31:17):
Uh we'll do better.
SPEAKER_00 (31:19):
It's a little, I mean, it's a little gender
war-ish.
Yeah, we're not doing that,remember?
No, we're not doing that.
Not on this sense.
SPEAKER_01 (31:24):
We are not doing that.
I think forgiveness, forgetness,fuck her, fuck himness, whatever
the fuck we came up with.
Leave all that behind in orderto move on or to cope, right?
SPEAKER_00 (31:38):
That person won't adjust the behavior.
Well, and and let's talk aboutthat for a second, too.
Because ultimately, that is whatthe forgiveness slash forgetness
path is.
Yeah.
Is an ability to cope with somehurt, some harm.
Whether it's one that's done.
SPEAKER_01 (31:56):
Whether one, whether it's one that continues to
repeat itself or one that was sobold in the past.
Yeah.
Like yours.
Yeah.
That you can't just throw thatshit away.
Nope.
SPEAKER_00 (32:09):
Not really.
Nope.
So, I mean, deeper hurts likethat definitely don't just go
away.
And I don't care what anybodysays about time.
Was it time heals all wounds?
Time heals all wounds.
I I think Maybe if you developAlzheimer's.
Alzheimer's?
Alzheimer's disease.
Alzheimer's disease, that mightdo it.
(32:30):
I I feel like, you know, and andI put the the F word out there.
I feel like I don't think awound so deep, you know, like I
don't know how you could eversay your last recollection of
your grandmother could besomething you could heal.
SPEAKER_01 (32:53):
I don't think I can fully heal from it.
But again, it I think there'sreframing to that one.
Sure.
SPEAKER_00 (33:00):
And and I think time with reframing oh, it's taken
can build a cottage over the topof the big bloody mess.
Right.
Literally.
But you know what's inside thecottage.
Sure.
Sure.
You know, and it it really ismental gymnastics to get
yourself to be able to cope.
(33:20):
I mean, again, it's coming on 15years.
SPEAKER_01 (33:23):
Yeah, no small order there.
And I'm still, like I said, Ithink about every day, and it
was a wee I was young.
So, I mean, that's the thing, isthat it's taken this long, and
I've worked on this for years atthis point.
And I can't tell you what theactual breakthrough truly was.
Like, truly, I think probably itis time is part of it.
(33:45):
And approaching it through musicwas a part of it, but being in a
mindset where I could had toalso be part of it.
I'm not so sure this podcastdidn't contribute a lot to that
as well.
Just talking about it and andgetting feedback and things.
So this podcast did a number onme.
I mean, honestly, uh I foundtherapeutic benefit in doing
this, and there's also beentimes where honestly it it's
(34:07):
it's been a challenge because ofwhat we've talked about and
maybe brought some things tolight that I'm like, well, fuck
myself over this.
So, and that's what this is allreally meant to be, truly, is to
challenge people, validate, andeverything in between.
Um and not judge.
That's the big one, and which ishard.
It's hard not to judge, um, no,especially kind of over these
(34:29):
hurts if we want to tie that in.
SPEAKER_00 (34:31):
Yeah.
Uh no, no judgment.
The only judgment is when peopleuse their uh diagnosis as an
excuse, right?
I've got a big pet peep aboutthat.
That's a big pet peep for myfriend here.
Um, but yeah, I think, andthat's one of the harms I think
therapy has actually done, notto introduce a whole new fresh
topic, but just the idea thatthere's so much terminology and
(34:54):
so many ways that you can be avictim in something, and to not
really truly look at thisforgiveness piece and look at
the fact that it is a copingmechanism, right?
You are trying to help peopleget through something, not
immerse them in it, not stickthem in it, not turn them into a
(35:16):
victim.
Right.
Right.
Therapy should be something thathelps you move through, move
past to give you the ability tohopefully regain some level of
higher functioning without, youknow, past harms pulling you
down every day.
Right.
SPEAKER_01 (35:35):
So forgiveness is about coping, not forgetting.
SPEAKER_00 (35:38):
Well, and it's it's interesting that we've, you
know, gone about this for almosta year now, and we're just now
getting around to talking aboutforgiveness as an episode.
Like honestly, I've beenstruggling with that in in a
several aspects of my life.
But if you think about it,that's why people go to therapy.
Ultimately, almost other people.
(36:00):
Right.
Forgive yourself, forgive thepast, forgive your partner,
forgive like it's it really istruly the story arc of therapy
is we start here and we end inforgiveness.
Yeah.
The ability to cope because wecan move past some things.
Right.
(36:20):
But I don't think any of us havereally had a deep conversation,
and I don't think I ever thoughtabout it before tonight.
The idea of forgetness notequating forgiveness.
SPEAKER_01 (36:35):
Yeah, I mean, I've thought that for a long time.
unknown (36:37):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (36:37):
I very much never align the same thing.
SPEAKER_00 (36:40):
I mean, I can remember being a kid and my
parents outlining hey, if youhold on to this, you're the one
who is harmed.
Right?
So you have to forgive.
Right.
And that allows you freedom.
You're allowed to move past thisthen.
SPEAKER_01 (37:00):
What's hard about that for me is the fact that
then you're letting that personwin.
It does.
They get away with God, I canremember thinking the same
thing.
Oh, it is to me.
It's like, oh, okay.
Well, they get to keep thatbehavior.
You can't let's say they're outof your life now.
You keep get to be a bastard,and I just gonna And I get to, I
(37:22):
just have to be like, okay,well, it's like, A, um, that's
not fair to the person who waswronged.
Forgive them, father.
They not know how they know notwhat they do.
Yeah.
Um But the other thing is Youand your religion.
Do they deserve it?
SPEAKER_00 (37:39):
Oh, hell no, they don't.
But that's the thing is you'reyou're sold a bill of goods that
says you deserve to forgivethem.
Yeah, they turn it on its head,don't they?
Which is a bit of a mind fuck.
It really truly isn'tforgiveness.
I've had we'll say two reallybig hurts in my life, and then a
(38:02):
third who was just a pecker.
She was just a fuckhead, youknow.
I I mean, I don't think shecould have done better where she
was at, right?
But, you know, yeah as aneurotypical you you could
fucking do better for sure.
Yeah.
(38:22):
So, but those three people, andI think about my forgiveness,
and I'm putting air quotes outthere for those of you not
watching, the forgiveness that Ioffered them is really just
putting it in a canister andsending it to the back room and
(38:46):
not working through it, notgetting any level of
accountability or any level ofatonement at all from these
people.
So as we sit here, I don't knowif I can call it forgiveness.
I agree, yeah.
Especially recently, I have hada lot of daydreaming about
(39:08):
having confrontational momentswhere oh, yeah, a little uh what
do they call that?
Peruvian necktie.
That's it.
That's the one.
Yeah, yeah.
Um, but no, it just it it amazesme, you know, and I think it's
only gotten worse.
I think relationships havegotten so juxtaposed.
(39:32):
If you're a male, you see it acertain way.
If you're a female, you see it acertain way.
Yeah, and those no longer align.
Not at all.
Not at all.
Yeah, okay.
So let's talk about this.
We have the three brains, right?
We've talked about you've gotyour cerebral, you've got your
heart.
And your penis.
And no.
unknown (39:51):
You fucker.
SPEAKER_00 (39:52):
Yeah, that was actually really good.
Yeah, men have four.
No, but you get so you've gotyour brain, you got your heart,
you got your your gut, yourstomach, right?
Intuition.
Right.
I think at the intuition level,and sometimes at the heart
level, depending upon howdeveloped the person is.
But regardless, I think at gutlevel, people know.
(40:14):
Yeah.
You know, yeah.
Like you know when you've hurtsomebody, even if you both just
dance around it and you don't,oh yeah, it it's kicking.
Around in there.
SPEAKER_01 (40:23):
You can't have an intimate relationship with
somebody.
So here's the question (40:26):
Is you know, you obviously, as you
mentioned, have had arelationship for 20-some years.
Is it okay that she only leavesit here?
Are you okay with it that itprobably stayed here?
Does it bother you that shewould not have okay, you guys
(40:46):
divorced, that was so many yearsago?
I don't think you can call itforgiveness.
SPEAKER_00 (40:52):
But I think by and large.
If you put those two things ona, you know, out of a hundred,
right?
I think you might be lucky tohave 10% be true forgiveness.
Like lucky to have 10%.
Yeah.
The other 90% is gonna beforgetness.
(41:13):
You're gonna have to just tuckit away.
People aren't gonna takeaccountability for it.
They're gonna call you crazy.
You know, they're gonna tell youyou're imagining it or you made
it up.
Being dramatic.
Or you did right.
You're just being forgiven.
SPEAKER_01 (41:27):
You're just being dramatic or blowing out of
proportion.
So, you know.
Maybe we can't actually break itaround to I I think a lot of
forgiveness is gonna come down,I mean, obviously, to ourselves,
but it it may not look like whatit's thrown out there, you know,
as the the romanticized versionversion of forgiveness.
SPEAKER_00 (41:47):
Oh, I feel so much better.
You've just you've you've healedme.
SPEAKER_01 (41:50):
Yeah, that shit don't.
That doesn't exist.
No.
So I think the work isn't Idon't think you can expect the
other person to do the work.
Now, if they do, wonderful.
And I there are people who doit, and like I said, maybe 10%.
Yeah, and and and you know,certain relationships, there may
be some things that give andsome things that don't.
(42:11):
You know, it doesn't always haveto be black and white that way
either.
SPEAKER_00 (42:14):
Okay, and and I'm just gonna throw this out there
for for any of our marriedlisteners.
I mean, imagine yourrelationship.
Oh, you know, and and you know,everybody goes through ups and
downs, right?
But if you can get to a placewhere you and your partner are
so in tune that you understandthat, oh, even if I didn't do
(42:37):
this purposely to hurt you, Ican easily take accountability
by just saying, oh, my bad.
I'm sorry, I genuinely nevermeant to hurt you.
Right.
And then if you had the trust inyour relationship to know that
your partner was then going todo better, like talk about
(42:58):
immediately strengthening yourrelationship.
Yeah, absolutely.
To really truly introduceforgiveness into a relationship,
yeah, like the ability toforgive each other, not forget.
That's the ultimate trust to me.
Absolute ultimate trust.
To know that if you hurt me, Iknow that you are truly going to
try better next time.
(43:21):
I agree.
I I think that is one of theultimate.
I think that's actually really,really solid takeaway.
Uh I agree.
I think I'm gonna have to trythat in my next relationship.
Next one.
Yes.
There you go.
I think it would be a reallygreat talking point.
You know, I mean, not everybodywants to lay down and, you know,
(43:43):
like, oh, hey, babe, it's theend of the day.
Let's have a talk about ourrelationship.
SPEAKER_01 (43:47):
Oh, I agree with you.
And and the other thing is Ifirmly believe in couples
therapy.
I think that can be an excellentthing.
The problem is for you, not forme.
I'm just kidding.
I argue that couples therapy isis good for about every couple
as long as both parties go inwilling to take accountability
for their side in it.
SPEAKER_02 (44:08):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (44:08):
You gotta be honest.
You have to.
Yeah.
Because I personally know acouple of couples who have done
couples therapy, and one of themimmediately stopped because they
were too uncomfortable.
Too many.
Actually, I think both of thesecouples had this happen.
Um, they were too uncomfortablewith the uh realities or or
(44:29):
whatever of that issue.
SPEAKER_00 (44:32):
Oh no, I I I myself I've had a I had a partner who
the the therapist had had knownme for maybe 20 minutes and
described me as love wrapped infrustration.
And then the rest of the theappointment, the therapist
(44:53):
proceeded to point out thethings that this person, her
client, had been doing to mejust in the you know 20-some
minutes that she had talked withus, and we never went back ever.
Really and that comes down tothe whole juxtaposition of Yeah,
yeah, yeah.
Which anyway.
You don't listen to the fish tolearn how to catch fish.
(45:16):
That's right.
You learn how to escape thenets.
Yeah, I just don't think thatthat's ever gonna get solved.
I think we really just need tocome to the middle.
So the idea is that oh, we'reall fucking people.
I have my frustrations withwomen as a man.
Right.
But as a thinking person, I knowthat we're gonna have to come
(45:38):
together and you know, not to betogether on the cracker.
Cheeky not to be cheeky aboutit, but ultimately we really are
going to have to forgive andthen equally take accountability
and perform atonement so that wecan heal those issues and move
(46:00):
forward.
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