Friendship, Accountability & Personal Growth | Josh “Guff” Guffey - Beat The Mental Health Out Of It! | Dark Humor Conversations On Mental Health, Trauma & Society

Episode Transcript
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SPEAKER_03 (00:23):
Life, life! Welcome to the Welcome to the Podcast.
Welcome to the podcast.
Welcome Guffy.
Welcome Guppy.
Welcome Guffy.
Welcome Guppy.
Welcome.
Welcome.
Another exciting hurried.
Welcome to Shetty Rock, take ourfleet.
Welcome to Shitty Airlines.

SPEAKER_02 (00:45):
Shitty Airlines.
Welcome to the Hui of yourbottom.
AKA Bottom Huey.
AKA beat the mental health outof it with your esteemed,
wonderful, fantastic, perfectdickhead of a host.
The defective schizo.
Oh fuck yeah.

(01:05):
The defective schizo effectivehere with our returning guest.
You know him, you love him.
Guff, the Guffinator.
Part two, baby.
Part two.
Part of many more to come.
So this is obviously just thetwo of us.

SPEAKER_03 (01:24):
We can make it if we try.
Just two of us.
A man dies.
Two of us.
Two of us.

SPEAKER_02 (01:32):
Boy, Will Smith, he ruined his career.
Oh yeah.
With the slap.
Talk about a bit.
That was a ballsy move, man.
That was a ballsy move.

SPEAKER_00 (01:45):
And the poor guy can't go to any more award
shows.
Oh.

SPEAKER_02 (01:52):
Let me play a song for him on the world's smallest
violin.

SPEAKER_04 (01:59):
Where is Spongebob or Mr.
Samsung doing that every time?

SPEAKER_00 (02:04):
Doot doot doot do.
Here lie, Squidward's hope anddreams.

SPEAKER_03 (02:11):
What a baby.
What a baby.

SPEAKER_02 (02:14):
Oh my god.
So yeah, clearly we're Spongebobfans, and we are total freaking
children about it.
There is no funnier or bettershow, and I guarantee you, Mr.
Guff here would totally agreewith me.

SPEAKER_04 (02:41):
Would anyone care for a bun bun?
Bon bun.
How's it taste?

SPEAKER_03 (02:47):
It's a delightful taste.

SPEAKER_02 (02:53):
Oh my god.
You didn't tune in for the quoteSpongeBob uh episode.
But here we are.
The reason I uh I wanted tostart with that is we're gonna
segue into our childhood.
See, wasn't that good, Gov?
Did you expect me to do that?

SPEAKER_00 (03:10):
No, that's pretty smooth.

SPEAKER_02 (03:12):
Yeah, see, that's why that's why people tune into
this podcast.

SPEAKER_00 (03:17):
Smooth as that bottom.

SPEAKER_02 (03:19):
Smooth as a baby's booty.
They are smooth.

SPEAKER_00 (03:25):
Yeah, smooth like butter.

SPEAKER_02 (03:29):
Her legs are like butter.
Okay, moving on here.
Before things get too weird,we're gonna save that shit for
later.

SPEAKER_00 (03:38):
Before people unsubscribe, unlike.

SPEAKER_02 (03:43):
All 60,000 listeners just stop after this episode.
That would be sad.
That would be sad.
Anyway, let's get to it.
So, you know, obviously, as wetalked on the episode um with
Tony, um, you know, Guff sharedsome stories about his friend.
Uh, but now we're gonna talkmore about me and Guff, like our

(04:04):
upbringing together and ourhistory in middle school, high
school, when I dropped off theface of the earth, um, our
history and a band together,kind of what split us apart for
a while, and and what brought usback into the fold.
So um, yeah, Guff and I attendedgood old Trans Central.

(04:26):
Uh out in the middle of nowhere.
In the middle of nowhere.
Don't even bother Googling it orlooking for it.
You you simply won't find it.
In fact, uh there are skepticswho say it doesn't exist.

SPEAKER_00 (04:39):
Um it doesn't exist to me anymore.

SPEAKER_02 (04:43):
I'm not convinced it did exist.
Well, that's the thing.
I mean, I I have to admit, youknow, I dropped out of school in
seventh grade.
Um, so you know, I uh I wasn'taround for the high school
years.
You know, I kind of popped myhead back in in freshman year
for about a month and a half,and then I I dropped out again.
So um, yeah, I mean, uh, you andI really started getting

(05:07):
acquainted.
It would have been what latehigh school, even after, right?

SPEAKER_00 (05:11):
Uh it would have been after high school.
Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 (05:14):
So, I mean, that's when the band would have
started, but I want to go backbefore that.
So um what's interesting is, andI really appreciated you for
telling me this, because I kindof knew it, but you you you
solidified it and I needed tohear it.
Is you know, I was I admittedly,I was pretty well liked in high
school, or sorry, middle school.
I was pretty popular.

(05:34):
Um, but you were one of the onlypeople, if not the only person,
to kind of tell me that I was abit of a prick.

SPEAKER_00 (05:43):
Um yeah, you were, but it also didn't help that you
surrounded yourself with peoplethat were like that too.

SPEAKER_02 (05:50):
I did, yeah, I definitely did.
And um, you know, this is Pauland Ryan really notwithstanding
on that.
They they've always been prettyfairly upstanding people, you
know.
Everybody's flawed, and we wereall asses and jackasses at
different times.
But um, you know, I did, and I'mnot gonna name these people.
There's no reason.
I mean, I don't think theylistened to this, and if they
did, you know, good for them, Iguess.

SPEAKER_00 (06:12):
Yeah, who cares?

SPEAKER_02 (06:13):
But like there's no reason to name them.
But what I will say is, youknow, another friend of mine,
you know, which I don't mindmentioning, Jake Miller, you
know, who's gonna do a podcastepisode with me this Sunday, um,
you remember Jake, of course,Guff.
Um and, you know, I'll get intoyou know our history, me and
Jake together, but it is reallyneat to be making, you know,

(06:34):
these connections again, uh,even through this podcast.
Um, you know, there's peopleI've been reaching out to that,
you know.
It is nice that even though I Ido know I was a complete ass at
different times, and I'll getinto kind of why and how that
changed for me because I'm notthat person anymore.
Um, but you know, it isinteresting to make these new

(06:56):
connections again or reconnectthrough this podcast.
There is something to that.
And you know, Guff and I, youknow, you you and I really
reconnected well before thisbecame a thing.
Um but let's kind of go back.
Um, so you know, my experiencein in you know elementary and
middle school, like I said, I Ihonestly had a pretty damn good
time.
Um I said I was pretty wellliked, even though I I wasn't

(07:19):
ass.
I don't think I was I I wasn't abully, but I was I was very
physically um like with friends,I was very physical.
Um, you know, I kind of hit alot, um, kind of out of a
friendly love kind of thing, butI was a I was a rough and I
don't I know Ryan and Pauldefinitely remember that.
Um and it got to the point, youknow, where in wrestling for me,

(07:42):
you know, I'd be Paul was oftenmy wrestling partner, and
because we were friends, and Iwas I was mean.
You know, I I wouldn't, youknow, he was, and I don't think
you mind me saying he wasn't thegreatest wrestler, and also I
just wouldn't give him thechance uh to be that because I
was I was naturally a goodwrestler, and the problem was is

(08:02):
that you know my issue withwrestling was that not that I
wasn't tough enough, um I nevergot pinned, never got pinned
once, but what happened is Iwould get so angry that I
couldn't remember the damnmoves, and I would get my ass
kicked when it came to points.
You know, so I still still lose,obviously.
Uh which anger, you know, I I dowant to get into too, plays a

(08:22):
lot into my past and even mypresent, and even yours too,
guff.
So I mean, like I said, my myexperience in in middle school
was pretty good.
Um and I admittedly I don't knowa whole lot of your experiences
during that time.
Uh you and I really weren't, Imean, I was aware of you, and I
think likewise, and we did hungout hang out in some of the same

(08:44):
circles a bit, um, but neverreally connected on a deep level
until you know after highschool.
So do you mind kind of sharing abit of your experience in
elementary and middle?
And this could be, you know,your experience during school,
it can be at home, it can bewhatever you want to share that
way, but just to kind of givesome depth.

SPEAKER_00 (09:04):
Yeah, a lot of the people may know this, but may
not.
Um, I was supposed to be classof 2010.
Um, our class was 20, would haveI mean, if you're if you were
still in high school, we allwould have been class of 2011.
Um, I should have been class of2010.
Um in third grade, um my mom andmy uh stepdad um became

(09:31):
separated, and so home lifewasn't the greatest, being
bounced around from mom and youknow my stepdad would have
visitation with me and mybrother as well, and so home
life wasn't the greatest, and soacademically I suffered from
that, and so I ended up being uhheld back in third grade, so

(09:53):
that's how I ended up with theclass that I graduated with.
Um, I don't even think I knewthat.

SPEAKER_02 (10:02):
I got held back.
I damn, I don't even know if Iknew that, bro.

SPEAKER_00 (10:07):
Um well, and uh the teacher I had was Mrs.
Ryan.
And for anybody that knows, shewas a very mean-spirited kind of
a woman.
I I remember her.
Yeah, I remember her.
I I tell it, I yeah, I call itlike I see it.
That's what this is all about,man.

(10:28):
This is what this is all about.
I mean, sh she was a bitch, andso it got to the point in third
grade, you know, I wassuffering, struggling with home
life, and she would keep me awayfrom recess with the other kids.
Uh she'd keep me inside theclassroom, it'd just be me and
her.
Uh, so I wouldn't have recess alot of the time, and she also

(10:51):
would keep me away from going tolunch.

SPEAKER_02 (10:54):
What did she say you would do wrong that would keep
you from participating in that?

SPEAKER_00 (10:59):
That I wouldn't listen to her when she was
teaching.
Uh that I'll just doodle on apiece of paper while she's
trying to teach the class.
So you got punished for thatlike that?
Yeah, absolutely.
Wow.
I guess I was very defiant.
Like I just didn't want tolisten, I wanted to be left

(11:20):
alone.

SPEAKER_02 (11:21):
Do you remember being that way?

SPEAKER_00 (11:24):
Oh, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 (11:25):
Do you?
Okay.

SPEAKER_00 (11:26):
Anyone that knows my fucked up memory, I I remember
everything from even beforekindergarten up until today.
So I could remember being inkindergarten, first grade,
second grade, as if it happenedyesterday.
A lot of people can't rememberwhat they did yesterday.
So how I ended up stuck withthat kind of memory, I don't
know.
Beats.

SPEAKER_02 (11:47):
Well, what's what's interesting is that I mean I
didn't know this really aboutyou until God, we I mean it was
recently in the last last timewhen we reconnected after all
those years.
I distinctly remember when wemet at that place, the bar, and
you were going over the menu,and they like took it back
immediately, and you knewexactly like what was like I

(12:07):
don't remember what the fuck youremembered, but I had to look
you know what I'm saying?
Like you remembered something onthat menu where oh, I was
wanting something.
And you like remembered whatcame with it and all this shit,
and you didn't even look atthat, like for you.
So and I remember I pointed thatout to you, and you said it kind
of made you uncomfortable forpeople to be aware that you had

(12:28):
that kind of memory.
Am I right on that, or am Iremembering that wrong?

SPEAKER_00 (12:32):
Um, I would say I find it weird because I can
remember what other people havedone or said, and so I would
think that if I share thatknowledge to them, that hey
yeah, I remember you as adickhead because you said this
like fucking 20 years ago.
They kind of look at you likewhy or how the fuck do you

(12:55):
remember that?

SPEAKER_02 (12:56):
Or they just wouldn't believe that you
remember that.
It's like, oh, you're makingthat shit up.
But here's the thing, I mean,that's why, you know, I I look
back and like you rememberthings so vividly, and I trust
it wholeheartedly that youactually remember it the way you
say it.
For one thing, you're one of themost trustworthy, genuine people
I know, and certainly one of thestrongest, but also you you

(13:19):
don't have a really amanipulative bone in your body.
Um, and it's just interestingthat you you do remember things
so clearly.
And I didn't know that you hadthat quote unquote ability to
the level you do, and it's it'sa pretty amazing kind of talent
that I don't think I have that,but I suffered in school.

SPEAKER_00 (13:41):
I I I couldn't know fucking uh you know, math.
I was horrible at math.
You know, different subjectslike that.
So where the I wish where I kindof had that memory and that
maintain where I can maintaincertain knowledge that I should
know, I don't know.
I it's it's a weird thing, man.

SPEAKER_02 (14:01):
So even to this day you still would remember like
memories, but you don't have youwould say a lot, maybe a lot of
it has to do with trauma.
Oh yeah, no, I was I was gonnaget I was just about ready to
get on that.
I was, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (14:14):
So everything I remember what people do or say
has caused some kind of reactionin my brain to where it's like
permanently implanted.

SPEAKER_02 (14:24):
Permanently etched in, yeah.
I mean, here's the thing is thatyou know, you say you remember
what people say, what people do.
But clearly you guess for metoo.

SPEAKER_00 (14:32):
And I know what I've done and what I said, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 (14:34):
Right.
And I mean that goes into thewhole thing of you know your
your remorse and your uh I guessregret for how things went with
the band, which we'll get inthat later.
But um like it's I wonder iflike the reason you're
remembering things like that sowell is because it's so personal
to you.
You know what I mean?
I think maybe that does playinto the trauma of why you

(14:57):
remember things like that sowell.
And but like I said, at therestaurant, you remembered the
menu like that.
Like I I distinctly I remembersaying, Holy shit, how did you
fucking remember that?
And you go, I don't know, I justgot this memory.
Like, you know, and I didn'treally know that about you.
Um you know what I mean.
So and I know that, you know,one thing that comes with the

(15:22):
disorder I have, schizoaffectivedisorder, especially schizotypal
mental illnesses, is that uhmemory's a real issue.
Um, and it's not that if youremember things wrong, um, there
is that kind of, and I wouldn'tcall it a delusional kind of
thing, because I think that'stoo strong of a of a of a word
for it, but there is certainlythings that like Paul, Ryan, my

(15:44):
family, uh people rememberdifferently than I do.
And of course, with kind of abit of the paranoia aspect, it's
like I don't know if I trustthat you guys are being truthful
with me.
But kind of through the years,I've kind of I'm like, damn,
people do remember it umcorrectly, and I probably don't.
Of course, the other way that'schallenging is because you know,

(16:05):
there's times I swear I rememberit right, and I'm almost
positive I do, but then peoplewill fight me on it.
So that's a really difficultmind fuck for me a lot of times.
Um is to kind of have thatcomplete fight against each
other all the time.
Um, but I definitely have gottento the point, like I know
probably you've noticed with youand a lot of other people.
I'm like, am I remembering thatcorrectly?

(16:26):
Like, truly, and people like youand certain other people that
have been so close to me, I'mlike, okay, then I trust that
they're not trying to fuck meover or manipulate anything.
It's like, no, they're they'reaccurate.
Like, I know they've got itdown, and a lot of times I am
right, but anyway, it is achallenge that way.

SPEAKER_00 (16:42):
Yeah, there has been times, yeah, there's been times
you've been right.
Or, you know, if there's momentsthat I don't remember, like say
maybe you know, you remembersomething that maybe I kind of
forgot about, but if you remindme of it, it's like I can
mentally go right there, and I'mlike, oh shit, yeah, that did
happen.

SPEAKER_02 (16:59):
Yeah, you're right, you're right.
I mean, you can be cued, youknow, a lot.
Um, but it it's it, I mean,that's a talent and probably a
bit of a uh a uh detriment tooto yourself, I imagine.
It is um probably hard to kindof let things go, maybe a little
bit.

SPEAKER_00 (17:17):
That it's a detriment because sometimes uh
people would try to tell me,like, no, this is what happened.
Like, nope, no.
They do want to tell me I'mwrong.
I'm like, no, fuck you.
I know I'm right.

SPEAKER_01 (17:29):
Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (17:30):
I was there, I heard I know what I heard, I know what
I saw.

SPEAKER_01 (17:34):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (17:34):
Maybe there's an element of truth that maybe I I
don't know.
Anyway, but like going back towhat I was saying about third
grade, before I forget about it.
No, yeah.
Um, she would even keep me fromgoing to lunch sometimes.
Like I would get in trouble.
She wouldn't let me go to lunch.

SPEAKER_02 (17:51):
And every time you wouldn't eat, they would bring
food too.

SPEAKER_00 (17:55):
No, I wouldn't eat at all.

SPEAKER_02 (17:57):
Oh wow.

SPEAKER_00 (17:58):
And so I would tell my mom to get home from school.
She'd be like, oh no, they can'tdo that, Josh.
That didn't happen.
You're probably making somethingup or whatever.
And then uh eventually she gotcalled in for a parent teacher
conference over my uh behavioror lack of lack thereof

(18:18):
behavior.

SPEAKER_03 (18:19):
Right.

SPEAKER_00 (18:20):
And so uh she had a meeting with my mom, and one of
the questions she asked my momwas, does Josh write his feces
on the wall?
And my mom said, What did youjust ask me?
She goes, Does Josh take hisfeces and does he write on the
walls with it?

(18:42):
And I remember my mom gettingup, she goes, I am not fucking
doing this.
Fuck you for even asking thatquestion.
We're getting the fuck out ofhere.

SPEAKER_02 (18:52):
What do you think spawned them to even think that?

SPEAKER_00 (18:58):
Yeah, beast me, man.

SPEAKER_02 (19:02):
You you definitely hear of like teachers picking on
kids for sure.
I mean, that that can be athing.
And I I'm sure it sounds likethis was, but there had to be
some sort of motivation or somesort of thing that would have
made her think to even approachany of this, right?
I mean, you said you were, youknow, you were quiet and you

(19:23):
know, were doodling in class,which how many fucking kids did
that.

SPEAKER_00 (19:26):
Um it'd be like she'd ask me a question, I'd
just straight up ignore.
Because if she was just a meanperson, I just didn't want to
interact with her.
So she'll like, you know, whenteachers were, hey, what's this
question?
What's the answer to thisquestion?
And then she'll just ignore thekids that had their hands
raised, and then she'll callsomebody out.

(19:48):
She'd be like, Hey Josh, answerthis answer this question for
me.
And I'll just completely ignore.
And she'd be like, Hello, EarthJosh, are you with us?
And I just ignore.
And then she'd even uh there'sbeen a couple times she told me,
All right, Josh, just grab yourstuff and go straight to the
principal's office.

SPEAKER_02 (20:07):
You went to the principal's office for that.

SPEAKER_00 (20:10):
Yeah, so I just, you know, grab what stuff I had and
I just go to the principal'soffice and how did the principal
can uh handle that?
Honestly, he didn't really domuch.
He was just like, Well, okay,we'll just Sit there and we
might have to call your parents.
But no, so he really he didn'the didn't or he'll just send me

(20:30):
back.
Oh, would he?

SPEAKER_02 (20:32):
Oh yeah.
So he wouldn't really fight, hewouldn't really quote unquote
discipline you, but he didn'treally like he was just kind of
like uh okay, well you'resitting here, so whatever.
Kind of thing.
Interesting.

SPEAKER_00 (20:44):
I remember one I remember one of the times, uh
you know, during that timeperiod, I became introduced to
Nintendo 64 for the first time.

SPEAKER_01 (20:55):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (20:56):
And so there's Pokemon Coliseum.
A game that was hot, I guess, atthe time.
Pokemon Stadium.
So I remember yeah, yeah, yeah.
Yeah, Pokemon Stadium.
Uh I remember one time thinkingabout playing that game while
she was teaching a class, andthat's when I straight up
ignored her one of those times.
Because I was thinking aboutplaying that game instead of
listening to her.

SPEAKER_01 (21:17):
Wow.

SPEAKER_00 (21:18):
Yeah, Josh goes to the principal's office.

SPEAKER_02 (21:21):
Okay, I just have to ask.
I have to ask.
Yeah.
Did they think, did they thinkyou were slow?
Did they think you were ADD orADHD or autistic or any of that
shit?
Did you ever, did they ever,anybody ever attempt to diagnose
you with any of that?
And I I'm going somewhere withthis.

SPEAKER_00 (21:38):
Well, I I'm thinking that teacher was asking my mom
questions like what she did tosee if I was on that spectrum.
And then it really affects itreally offended my mom.

SPEAKER_02 (21:51):
Well, and here's the thing.
I mean, clearly you're not,you're not, I don't even know
the fucking terms anymore.
I mean, yeah, mentally retardedwas the term, and of course we
turned that into an insult,which I bring that back.
That was fucking fun.
I I'm sorry.
Like, it was funny.

SPEAKER_03 (22:06):
I was talking, I've talked to several Freds who are
like, yeah, bring faggot back,bring fucking retarded back.

SPEAKER_02 (22:12):
You know, they're just I get that they're
offensive terms now, and I'llprobably get you know canceled
for even saying that.
But it's just like, you know,things aren't offensive until
you kind of like that, until youbut uh thank you.
Yes, you and you and Tony arealways good about Nick.
Move on before you get yourselfdigging your six-foot grave into
a 12-foot one.

SPEAKER_00 (22:33):
Um don't take me with you.

SPEAKER_04 (22:36):
We're already there, buddy.
We're already there.

SPEAKER_02 (22:39):
But um anyway, so I was just curious if they did do
that because um, you know, Imean, back then you would have
shown quote unquote the signs orcharacteristics of somebody who
back then they would haveprobably thrown that diagnosis
on to.
Um and I can tell you that whenI was that age, they were trying
to diagnose me as ADHD.

(23:01):
And I wasn't, I was hyper.
And there's a difference.
Anyway, so I was just reallycurious if they had happened to
try to diagnose you withsomething because uh no one
professionally ever tried, no.

SPEAKER_00 (23:13):
Um the school didn't, me and that teacher did
for that little bit, but my momdidn't want to hear any of it.
So when uh she when uh theschool broke the news that you
know I was gonna have to be heldback, my mom said, Yeah, Josh
probably should be held back.
Here's my condition.
He is not gonna be in thatbitch's class for next year.

(23:41):
And they totally understood, andthey let my mom have the pick of
the available teachers, and Iended up going with Mrs.
Jones.

SPEAKER_02 (23:51):
Ah, Mrs.
Jones is really nice, I rememberher.

SPEAKER_00 (23:54):
Polar opposite from what I had.
Yeah, no, I'm sure.
Mrs.
Jones, she was a sweetheart of awoman, uh, compassionate.
I think she I think she knew mysituation.
I think my mom ended up speakingwith her a little bit about it.
Right.
So that's so I think she had agood idea what was going on.

(24:15):
And she also had a uh anassistant.
Uh I'm just gonna name drop her,I don't care.
Uh, Nina Combs, her mom wouldhelp out with Mrs.
Jones class.
And she was an uh anotherwonderful woman and very very
sweet as well.

SPEAKER_02 (24:35):
Um yeah, I remember I remember Nina Combs and her
mom.
They're they're both greatpeople.

SPEAKER_00 (24:39):
Um I I think with Nina's mom and Mrs.
Jones together really helps mymentality and helped me get
through that second year, thatthird grade.

SPEAKER_02 (24:52):
Well, it is amazing how much just a good supportive
teacher can can help.
Um that's so that is powerful,you know.

SPEAKER_00 (25:01):
I think I think the classmates too was great as
well.
So uh it was nerve-wracking thatfirst week or so, you know,
being around a different wholedifferent class.
I did have there was a a fewdifferent people that were held
back in the same year.

unknown (25:19):
Right.

SPEAKER_00 (25:19):
I ended up being in my class.
Um so it's always, oh hey, Iknow you.

SPEAKER_02 (25:25):
Yeah, it looks good to have some familiarity.
Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (25:29):
You got held back too?
Cool.

SPEAKER_02 (25:32):
Yeah, I mean it it is really kind of powerful how
much just a kind supportiveteacher can really make a
difference.

SPEAKER_00 (25:41):
I just need I just needed some kind of support.
I didn't need medication.
I there wasn't not there wasn'tanything wrong with me.

unknown (25:48):
Right.

SPEAKER_00 (25:48):
I had a lot of home life issues, and that was it.

SPEAKER_02 (25:54):
And that that's the thing.
And and I I I really like Isaid, I'm truly happy they
really didn't pursue that awhole lot with you.
I do think it's kind of ablessing in disguise.
Well, not really, just ablessing that you uh you never
were, you know, kind of justthrown into one of those
categories, you know, and Ithink so many are.
But um so, you know, that's kindof your elementary period.

(26:19):
And then I mean middle school iswhen you and I would have gotten
more connected, I guess.
Um I think we I I don't rememberinteracting with you a ton.
Um but I definitely I definitelyremember, you know, you were
hanging around with Jake Thumb.
Um that was kind of the crew,that was the most into that crew
you got.
Um, you know, Jake was anotherone that everybody just loved.

SPEAKER_00 (26:40):
Yeah, and Jake, he moved to our school in seventh
grade.

SPEAKER_02 (26:44):
Right, yeah, he came late.
He would have been the friend ofthat crew that I was with that
you would have been most in, Ithink, most involved with.
But again, he was another reallynice guy and still is.
Um, you know, he kind of droppedoff the face of the earth too, I
mean, many years, um, and kindof just had his own struggles,
but we'll cover that kind of onhis episode.
But either way, um, you know,how did middle school kind of go

(27:09):
for you?
What what was a bit of yourexperience there?

SPEAKER_00 (27:12):
Uh you I wrestled in middle school too.
Um, but here's the thing Iwasn't a great wrestler.
The biggest reason why I wasn't,because I was too damn worried
about what people thought of me.
And I was afraid I was gonnahurt somebody.
I was I didn't want peopleseeing me in that damn singlet
because I thought they were uglyas hell.

(27:33):
I hated those damn singlets.

SPEAKER_02 (27:35):
Oh, they're they're uncomfortable.

SPEAKER_00 (27:36):
I don't really well I was very insecure with myself,
and so I let Well, we all werelike what a weird fucking thing
to put yeah, but uh it wouldn'tit wouldn't allow me to put in
the effort or uh I couldn't giveit my all because I was so damn
insecure of myself where I knowif I actually put my all my

(28:00):
effort and took the shit veryseriously.

SPEAKER_02 (28:05):
You felt comfortable and confident, you would have
been a completely differentwrestler.
Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (28:09):
Oh yeah.

SPEAKER_02 (28:09):
I mean there's no doubt about it.
And you know what's funny is Ihaven't shared this much, but I
mean it's just funny, I don'tgive a shit.
Is you know, I don't know if youever had this, and I don't even
know if you admit it if you did.
But sometimes, you know, you Iremember getting erections in
those fucking singlets.

SPEAKER_00 (28:26):
Well, that's that's you, buddy.
Fair enough.

SPEAKER_02 (28:30):
But it wasn't like it wasn't from I don't think it
was from lesslin dudes,although, you know, maybe.
I don't I don't know.
Maybe Paul turned me on, youknow, it's just wrestling Paul
and my oh my god.

SPEAKER_00 (28:42):
Um you like showing your dominance.

SPEAKER_02 (28:47):
No, but like well, there was there was I've shared
on here there was a period whereI questioned if I was a
homosexual.
I went through a short period ofthat.
But you know, I maybe it wasduring that time.
I was like, God, I'm wrestlingdudes, and I'm just having a
good time here.
But you know, I mean it'shonestly it's nothing to do with
that.
I mean, you just you rub it downthere and you you kind of you

(29:08):
get aroused just by that.
But it's just again, that kindof in a weird way, but that
plays into an insecurity.
You know, I mean, you're seeingjust skin tight shit on teenage
fucking boys.
Um, I I've never really likedthat.
I mean, even back then I wasinsecure too, but yeah I was
able to overcome it a bit, butlike I said, I mean I would have

(29:31):
been a much better wrestler if Icould have kept my damn anger in
check.
You know, that just always tookover.

SPEAKER_00 (29:36):
Yeah, and I and I yeah, I wrestled in middle
school, I did football seventhgrade.
Right.
I opted out of eighth grade.
And uh to be honest, I don'tknow why I didn't play my eighth
grade year.
Uh I just don't think I wantedto.

(29:57):
Uh I mean it's like I wanted to,but I also didn't want to.
I I don't know why, but I Ididn't play eighth grade year,
and I wish I would have, but Ididn't.

SPEAKER_02 (30:09):
Did you ever play any sports after that or just
kind of stayed off the sportsthing for the rest of your own?

SPEAKER_00 (30:15):
I think I wrestled wrestled freshman year.

SPEAKER_02 (30:18):
Did you?

SPEAKER_00 (30:19):
And then I think I ended up quitting middle of the
season.

SPEAKER_02 (30:24):
Oh, okay.
Okay.
And that was that was kind ofthe end of your sports.

SPEAKER_00 (30:29):
Well, no, I played football all four years of high
school.
Did you?
Okay.

SPEAKER_02 (30:34):
I don't know if you did or not.

SPEAKER_00 (30:35):
I figured you did, but I quit wrestling because I
wanted to learn um like thefundamentals of the actual
wrestling.
And I felt like all we did wasrun as if we were in
cross-country.
And I hated that aspect.
I hated running.

(30:56):
Running is not my strong suit.
Uh, because by the time we weredone running, you know, I'm
tapped out, I'm gassed out, Idon't want to wrestle.
That was the last thing I wantedto fucking do.

SPEAKER_02 (31:07):
Well, I gotta say, I mean, it was it was ran like a
boot camp.

SPEAKER_00 (31:11):
But now I understand that can now I understand that
conditioning plays a huge factorinto wrestling.

SPEAKER_02 (31:18):
Oh yeah, oh yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (31:19):
I mean I think for me it didn't work because I had
no desire to wrestle after wegot done doing fucking 10 miles
of running before practice, andI fucking hated that.

SPEAKER_02 (31:32):
Oh yeah.
I mean it's a good thing.

SPEAKER_00 (31:33):
I'd rather I'd rather wrestle and get my energy
out on the mat, learn thefundamentals, and then you know,
once I felt confident of that,then I could work on my cardio.
But you know, we're not coaches,you know.

SPEAKER_02 (31:46):
Well, you know, the interesting thing is, I mean,
you had did you have McFarron?
Would he have been your coach?

SPEAKER_00 (31:51):
Yep.

SPEAKER_02 (31:52):
Yeah, if I'm not mistaken, he was a former drill
sergeant.
So I don't remember.

SPEAKER_00 (31:57):
Um I know he liked to use his I I know he liked to
use his brother as an examplethat you know he um is mentally
handicapped and he would do he'dbe in the Special Olympics and
has won medals, and so anytimeyou'd hear somebody say, Well, I
can't do it, I can't do this, Ican't do that, you know, you'd
want to bring up and talk abouthis brother.

SPEAKER_02 (32:20):
Like I do remember that.
And I remember one of the one ofmy favorite sayings he had,
which is just funny, iswrestling was 20% uh physical
and 90% mental.
And we always had to give 110%.
Do you remember him saying thatall the time?

SPEAKER_03 (32:34):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 (32:35):
Crack crack my shit up.
I I love it.
I mean, it's funny.
But um, either way, um so youstill played sports and all
that.
So, what were your likerelationships like among
friends?

SPEAKER_00 (32:45):
Like outside of a few people, not very many.
I uh I wanted to say to myself,there's a lot of people I didn't
like.
Uh I just felt a lot of peoplewere phony and two-faced.

SPEAKER_03 (33:02):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (33:04):
And so that's why I'd rather stick to myself.

SPEAKER_02 (33:07):
No, I think I get that.
And of course, you know, it'steenagers.
Go ahead.

SPEAKER_00 (33:12):
Yeah, I just don't like people.
No, I I get it.

SPEAKER_02 (33:16):
I get it.
I get it.

SPEAKER_00 (33:18):
I mean, um I had my circle, I had my circle of
people.
Uh Paul.
He's one of my closest friends,and Ryan.

SPEAKER_03 (33:27):
Right.

SPEAKER_00 (33:28):
Um man.
Jake, but you know, it wasn't astight as maybe say middle
school.

unknown (33:39):
Right.

SPEAKER_00 (33:42):
Uh God, not not really.
Not really a lot of not really alot of friends.
I mean, you just have the peoplethat you were in classes with
that you could get along or jokearound with and have laughs, but
French friends.
Yeah.
Uh senior year, I playedfootball.

(34:02):
Uh I ended up quitting like thelast probably the last week or
two of the season.
Um before before that footballyear or season began.
I hurt my ankle during thetwo-a-day practices.
Uh turned out it turned out tobe a uh a sprain to Achilles.

SPEAKER_03 (34:29):
Oh, okay, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (34:30):
Uh it wasn't a tear, but it was like border
borderline.
It was right there.
It was about the tear, myAchilles.
And so I suffered for the firstfew weeks, you know, with my
ankle being all fucked up.
Right.
Um, and I pushed through the uhpushed through the year, uh, but

(34:53):
then it started to bother meagain towards the end of the
year.
And you know, our whole varsitylineup was all seniors.
Outside maybe like one or twothat were maybe like wide
receivers or you know, or abackup running back.
Um so my ankle started botheringme again, and it was causing me

(35:13):
to have issues playing, and theytold me that they were gonna
bench me for a freshman.
Now, our whole varsity linemenis all seniors, and they told me
they're they were gonna bitch mefor a freshman, and I said, if
you bench me, I quit.
And I told King that.

SPEAKER_02 (35:34):
So did they did they bench you or you just quit
before they could?

SPEAKER_00 (35:37):
Absolutely, yeah.
They benched me.
And so I said, Okay.
Show showed up, I know showed agame to get their attention.
And he pulled me to the side, hegoes, Oh, I don't want you to
quit, but we are benching you.
And I said, Okay, well, I'mgonna turn I'm gonna turn in my
pads.
And so I did.

(35:58):
Turn in my pads and called it aday.
Wow.
That wrapped up my footballcareer.

SPEAKER_02 (36:07):
Well, thing is, I I know how much you love football
because you fucking still do,you know.
At least uh I don't know.

SPEAKER_00 (36:15):
No, that fucking ankle, man, it it bothered me
that whole season.

SPEAKER_02 (36:19):
Yeah, and you fought through it, and then what's
happened?
You you don't even reap thebenefits of fucking fighting
through it.

SPEAKER_00 (36:25):
I had one bad game where it really I really
struggled with it, and I wasworking really hard to overcome
that, and then to be told that Iwas gonna get benched for a
freshman.
Like, fuck you.
I quit.
I don't blame you.
I don't blame you.
Like if you bench me, I quit.
Yeah, that's a shitty thing todo to a fucking school.

(36:48):
Yeah, it was the it it was theyeah, it was the very last game
of the season.
It was against Mylan.
Yeah.
It was gonna be a rogue game,and they told me they were gonna
bench me for a freshman.
And I said, I won't be there.
And they're like, oh, okay.
Oh, I know show.
Wow.
And then that first Monday back,King pulled me to decide, hey,

(37:12):
uh, where were you?
I told you I wasn't gonna bethere.
If you were gonna bench me, Iwasn't gonna be there.
Well, that's not supporting theteam.

SPEAKER_02 (37:20):
Uh not supporting the team is you know uh benching
an injured player who's you knowprobably capable of still
playing.

SPEAKER_00 (37:30):
Yeah, I was capable of playing.
It just pissed me off.
I'm like, no, that's bullshit.
Like, our whole lineup is all ofthe seniors.

SPEAKER_03 (37:39):
Right, right.

SPEAKER_00 (37:40):
You're gonna bitch me for a freshman.
Fuck you.
And so I think it means.

SPEAKER_02 (37:46):
Yeah, I don't blame you, man.
I don't blame you.
Kind of proud of you that youdid.
That's probably that's a prettybold thing for a high schooler
to do, I think.
Stand up to their coaches and belike, fuck you, kind of thing.
Um but you know, you you'vealways been a pretty bold, if
not reserved, you know, person.

(38:06):
Um I can definitely say, youknow, I I remember, at least
what I remember of you in theelementary, you know, middle
school years, you were never anoverly outspoken, you know,
person.
You're pretty reserved.
Um pretty quiet.
I mean, you know, you reallyweren't you you would kind of

(38:27):
disappear.
You you know, you would come outsometimes, you know, but I
admittedly you did kind ofdisappear um into the into kind
of the the groups and and justkind of quietly you know do your
thing.
And is that something you wantedto do, or is it kind of just
that's where you felt safe, oryou're just like you didn't want
to fuck with anybody?
Like, do you wish you were moresocial?

(38:48):
Like, how do you how do you feelabout some of that?

SPEAKER_00 (38:54):
Well, if you would have asked me about two years
ago, I would have said, no, Ithink I was cool with
everything.
I wouldn't have changedanything, and now certain events
have transpired within the pasttwo years.
And now I'm like, well, wellfuck.
Like if I if I took this energyand how I am now back then,

(39:14):
like, good lord, yeah, I wouldhave been a social butterfly, I
would have actually ventured outto try to make friends.
Well, regardless if I thoughtthey were two-faced or not, you
know.
Still have some kind ofcompanionship with people.

SPEAKER_02 (39:28):
Um here's the thing.
I mean, as teenagers, we're allfucked up.
I mean, we are, you know, we'retrying to figure ourselves out,
figure out relationships, figureout, you know, the future,
especially in like late highschool.
And I mean, it is a lot ofstress.
I I mean, I think often it ismade to be a bigger thing than
what it actually is, you know.
I also think, you know, maybe itdepends on your aspirations.

(39:51):
You know, if someone's wantingto, you know, go do great,
amazing things.
Yeah, I get that.
But like most of us just kind ofwant to find a path, and and
that's hard enough.
But you know, I mean, my mytrajectory certainly changed,
you know, pretty heavily in inthat seventh grade area.
Um I mean, I I don't know howmuch you remember of all this.

(40:14):
Um it was amazing that when Idid the episode with Alexis, she
remembered so much.
But you know, I you know, Idropped off the face of the
earth due to, you know,imploding basically.
From my mental illness.
And then, you know, kind of onething I did want to explore with
you, and this will kind of be asegue into that, is simply
acceptance.
Acceptance of your life,acceptance of your situations,

(40:36):
acceptance of the cards you weredealt.
Because if there's one thingI've really uncovered in my
therapy that I'm in right now,is simply that I haven't
accepted my situation as far asmy mental illness.
You know, it's what'sinteresting is obviously I'll
accept the diagnosis left andright.
You know, clearly I I've donethat my whole life.

(40:57):
You know, it's not like I go upto people, hey, I'm Nick, I'm
schizoaffective.
But it's not something I'm justlike hiding.
Um obviously not.
You know, I'm out here fuckingputting it out there.
But what I haven't accepted isthe actual limitations of the
mental illness itself.
So as you know, I'm not workingright now trying to get on

(41:18):
disability.
And there's that whole thing of,you know, I'm not providing for
the family, I'm not working, uh,you know, and and right now
there's a lot going on that I'ma lot more um isolating and
trying to, you know, stay calmand stay healthy and all this
stuff.
But kind of what I wanted to gointo about my experience during

(41:39):
that was, I mean, as you know, Idid drop off the face of the
earth.
I mean, nobody knew what thehell happened to me.
I kind of had that episode musicclass and then I was out.
Um, but what kind of happened,you know, and I don't know how
much of you remember about thispart of me back then, but you
know, I was in very good shape.
I was a really great athlete.
I was also one of the top in theclass as far as academically.

(42:00):
Um so I was very successful bothways.
And, you know, once I implodedmentally and had to go inpatient
and you know, started getting onmedications, you know, one of
the first antipsychotic meds Iwas on was Resperidol.
And I gained 60 or 70 pounds inabout six months.
Um and then of course I uh wasvery cloudy and um, you know,

(42:22):
all this stuff.
And and oddly enough, I uh youknow, I was recently diagnosed
with severe sleep apnea.
And I was kind of talking, youknow, my mom had an appointment
the other day, and we weretalking about, you know, funny,
the appointment turned fromabout me to about or about her
to about me.
Because you went back andlooked, the nurse practitioner
went back and looked at myrecords and found out that you

(42:43):
know how bad it was.
And she's like, You might havebeen you might have had sleep
apnea since you were a kid.
And, you know, of course, sleepapnea, you know, if you have
sleep apnea, it in you know, theway mine works, and I didn't
even know how this fuckingworked, but you know, sleep
apnea is when you stop breathingor your breathing is a bit
obstructed.
So you know you either stopbreathing completely or your
breathing's very tight andstrained.

(43:04):
So I had anywhere from 60 to 100some instances an hour.
And there were so they have thepartial, they actually can can
like label both.
So you have a partial stoppage,which is like, you know, your
your brace closed or it's alittle blocked, and you have
whole.
Well, I was about half.
So on this fucking chart wherethey do the sleep study, there

(43:27):
were many times in an hour whereI would stop breathing for 30
seconds.
Like, and it was half like that,so I'd stop breathing from like
10 seconds to 30 seconds, halfof those instances in an hour,
and the others would be like,you know, uh obstructed,
slightly obstructed breathing.
So it's like the only reason I'msharing all that is because I
think a lot of this played inthe trajectory of kind of where

(43:48):
I'm at now, and this all playsinto the acceptance side of it.
So, you know, very successfulathlete, very, very in shape,
very confident.
You know, girls wanted me, youknow, I was very liked that way,
I was very liked as a person,even though I know I was an ass.
And part of it is because I wasso confident and I was so
successful in both those ways.
Um, what they always say is, youknow, my my uncle Mike has his

(44:09):
picture up in the high school,and it's because he's one of the
best academic students that'sever gone through Triton, you
know.
I mean, I know it's a smallschool, you know, but still it's
it's impressive.
And my goal was always to havemy picture next to his.
Um, you know, the two witchmanson the wall.
Um but what's interesting is youknow when that all happened, and

(44:30):
I, you know, my lost myphysical, you know, abilities, I
lost my mental capacity.
So I became a completely umalmost like a watered-down
version of who I was.
Um, but that also humbled me alot.
Um and I can safely say I'venever had a good self-esteem.
Even then I didn't.
A lot of that was a mask, a lotof it was posturing.

(44:51):
Um, but still, you know,definitely when I lost those,
you know, things I took a lot ofpride in, you know, I I that
that's a hard hit, and I stillhaven't really overcome that.
You know, I'm a fat fuck now.
Um, you know, I'm very cloudyminded.
Um, you know, I don't have asuccessful career, you know,
tried to build it many times andfailed many times, hence why I'm

(45:12):
trying to get on disability nowand all that.
But I guess again, it all comesdown to you know, you have this,
I had this stellar kind oftrajectory I was pursuing, and
then it all kind of just in onekind of moment, it was those all
gone.
Um, but again, like you said, Iuh my personality changed after
that.

(45:32):
Um I became more subdued.
I mean, I always very social.
I love being social.
You know, relationships mean somuch to me.
Um, and I'm actually Katie and Ikind of talked my wife about how
you know I'm probably prettyrare in how many relationships I
like to have.
Um, you know, she's okay withlike three to five core
relationships in her life andoften less than that.

(45:54):
Um I like to have I'll I'll have20.
You know, just people that areall so core to me.
Um, you know, there's more thatare central, but like I do like
to expand my social circles to apretty deep level.
And when relationships like thatkind of tank or they they
dissipate, um, I get hurt.
I get hurt really bad by that.
Um, you know, I don't I can't Idon't like letting people go

(46:17):
when it comes to that.
So again, this all kind of playsinto acceptance.
I haven't accepted that, youknow, all that shit went south
with me.
I haven't accepted a lot of therelationships that I've lost
that I cared about.
And even now, as you know, Guff,and I mentioned, you know,
through this podcast, I'm tryingto actually reconnect to people.
And I have.

(46:37):
Um, but it is hard for me toaccept a lot of those losses,
and of course it's hard for meto accept my situation now with
need to get on disability andyou know, a lot of the financial
burden that's placing, and eventhe mental burden that's placing
on not only me, but my my wife.
Um so all that to share,acceptance is fucking hard, and

(46:59):
it's probably my greatest enemyright now is simply accepting
the cards I've been dealt, thelimitations I have, and if if if
we can, and this is anybody, ifwe can accept those things, then
we can move on from it and andproceed in in the best way
possible with the cards we'vebeen dealt.
We can continue to play thegame.

(47:21):
Um so I guess I want to shareall that.
I know that was a bit long.
I don't know if I've reallyshared all that on here, um,
like that, but all that kind ofto go back to uh I I know you've
struggled with that yourself,and you don't necessarily have
to share the situations behindit.
Um but it does seem like you'refurther along that path than me.

SPEAKER_00 (47:46):
Um thing is that I would like to be the social
butterfly, reach out to people,reconnect.
Here's the thing, I've beenfucked over by so many people.
I have severe trust issues.

unknown (48:02):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (48:03):
So that makes me not want to reach out to people
because I would just get burnedtime after time again.
And so I'm at the point I'mlike, well, fuck it.
I don't I don't really need themanyway.
Um there are some people I'mglad I have reconnected with,

(48:25):
and there's some I havereconnected with and hasn't gone
anywhere.
Um as to either they do or saysomething that rubs me the wrong
way, brings up old trauma, redflags, and I just kick them out
in my life, and so want nothingto do with them.

(48:46):
And yeah, it doesn't bother meone bit.

SPEAKER_02 (48:50):
Yeah, I mean god, I admire that.

SPEAKER_00 (48:52):
I mean it sucks, yeah.
But it's like, man, I'm notgonna put effort into something
or try to force something that'snot there, and I just don't want
to get fucked over again.
Aka the the events over the pasttwo years is why I have severe
trust issues.

SPEAKER_02 (49:09):
No, I know what you mean, and and and you have
developed that kind of wall orsafety net of being okay with,
hey, you know, this person's adick, or this person's not
treating me well, or you know,this person's not trustworthy.
So, you know what?
I don't need them.
Like, you're gone.

SPEAKER_00 (49:25):
And I have a really good read on people.

SPEAKER_02 (49:27):
Yes, you do.
You are an incredibly sociallyaware person.
I I am too, although mine'sclouded sometimes.
But it's like today, I have tomention, like, we were in the
car, and you know, I was gonnagive you that baked potato from
Wendy's.
And you you asked Katie, like,do you want that baked potato?
And she was trying so hard tofake that she was okay with it.

(49:49):
And by the way, I can read herlike a book too.
She's not very good at fakingstuff, she's another just
painfully genuine person.
Again, doesn't have amanipulative bone in her body.
So, but you've you picked up onit so easily.
Like, no, she's hesitated, shewants it.
You know, it's just funny.
You are an example.

SPEAKER_00 (50:04):
She started laughing.
It's like, all right, got myanswer.

SPEAKER_02 (50:06):
Uh, you called her out, yeah.
And that's good.
That's good because a lot ofpeople aren't comfortable just
being like, no, I want it.
Or no, I don't want it.
You know, it's just like beingdefinitive.
There's a confrontation.

SPEAKER_00 (50:17):
Well, you can have it if you want it.
So nope, it's yours, you claimedit.
Right, right.
Goodbye, I'm leaving.

SPEAKER_02 (50:24):
Yeah, you just left after the potato thing.
No, the weather was really bad.
Yeah, really, the potato thingreally got to you, buddy.
No, uh, but what's what isinteresting about that is I
think you being kind of quietallows you that space to observe
and be aware socially.
Where I've developed my socialintelligence from interacting so

(50:45):
damn much, you know, from fromso many social interactions with
different people and connectionsand things like that.
Um, so it's kind of weird thatwe both developed, I think, a
pretty high level of socialawareness and social
intelligence, social emotionalintelligence in completely
different ways.
Um and I'd argue maybe yours ishealthier.

(51:06):
Um because I gotta say, you havea more mature approach to this
than me.
I mean, just by default.
Because my thing is that, youknow, I want all these
relationships and I've beenfucked over a billion times, yet
I continue to trust, I continueto put my all into
relationships.
And, you know, often, I I'd saya majority of the time, even

(51:27):
core relationships to me, thatdoesn't get reciprocated.
And then I'm devastated by it.
Um and that's people close tome, that's even you know, people
I've reconnected with, and hey,we're is this gonna be like what
we had?
And of course it's never gonnabe rarely.
Um you are truly one of the ifyou might be truly the only
person from my actual past thatwhen we reconnected the last

(51:50):
year, year and a half, it wasdeeper than we've ever been.
Um, and I think a lot of it camefrom the trauma we've
experienced and life experience,um and having children too.
Um, you know, there's there'sthings that you and I can can
relate about that I simply can'twith any other friends.
Um, and you're willing to go tothose depths with me to explore

(52:12):
it.

SPEAKER_00 (52:12):
Um a lot of people don't want to talk about it
because they want to suppress itor act like it or act like it
doesn't bother them, but down totheir core, you you feel their
vibe that there's somethingthere they don't want out.
Um, you're exactly right.
That that's what the differencebetween our relationship opposed
to maybe other people.

(52:34):
So I think uh like my biggestthing uh things I've been told
over certain events was justmove on, don't think about it.
It's like, all right, well,here's the thing.
If you people that say that, Itruly believe have mastered the
ability to suppress theirfeelings to where they have you

(52:57):
know mentally keep tellingthemselves, oh, that's not a big
deal, it's not a big deal, justso they can keep those emotions
and and that pressure cooker'sgonna go off eventually.

SPEAKER_02 (53:08):
Well, I can tell you that that ends up imploding on
people, and it's actuallysomething that will truly
shorten your fucking life.
Truly.
That takes physical effects onyourself.
Um I mean, good example is Ryan.
Um, you know, with what he wasgoing through in his marriage,
you know, suppressed all ofthat.
And of course, has made greatstrides becoming a policeman and

(53:29):
finding the woman of his dreams.
And but you know, he had 11, Ithink 11 years of that
relationship, and it was not agood one.
Um, you know, kind of a toxicrelationship.
I don't want to go into details,you know, uh, to take agency of
sharing a lot of that.
But that's a conversation.

SPEAKER_00 (53:46):
That's a conversation I'd love to have
with him about.

SPEAKER_02 (53:49):
Well, yeah, I you know, I I think that connection
could easily happen again.
Um but what I was gonna say, youknow, because he was a band
member, I guess we might getinto that.
But what I was gonna say is, youknow, I do know that he's really
struggling with acceptance andprocessing things now that he
never did before.
And it is absolutely a strugglefor him that if he kind of had

(54:12):
processed and maybe approachedthings differently and you know,
been willing to be moreconfronting, uh confrontational
on and not and not be um youknow submissive and and quiet
about, you know, things he couldhave maybe not been in a
different position than he isnow.
I mean he's doing great, youknow.
I'm not saying that, but maybehe had grown as a person
differently and not be so not bestruggling mentally as much as

(54:36):
he is now.

SPEAKER_00 (54:37):
Um I'm sure his profession too helps with that.

SPEAKER_02 (54:41):
Oh yeah, it has to.
I mean, you know how it is, Imean, you've heard the videos
he's put out there um lately,you know.
Um that that situation issomething that really affected
him.
And um the fact that, you know,on the job, he talks about, you
know, when you're when you're inthose moments, it it's work.
You know, it's like, oh, youknow, put put the emotions

(55:01):
aside, you were there to to dothe job.
And then afterward, you implode.
You know, you you have to totake that in.
And of course, the bit of atangent here, but I think it's
an important one, is you know,you hear of like uh emergency
responders and policemen andfiremen who see these god-awful
events.

(55:21):
You know, we're talking, youhear of paramedics on the
highways when people get hit bycars, they're they're they
explode.
It's like, or you hear, youknow, um, veterans who who talk
pretty in comedic ways abouttheir tragedy.
There is, again, to go back tothat whole there is healing
through finding humor in thingsthat just objectively are not

(55:41):
funny, you know, like mygrandmother's suicide.
I can make fun of that now.
I have to, you know, again, thatplays back to something I
haven't actually accepted.
I'm still livid at that woman.
And what's interesting is, youknow, I totally understand where
she came from and why she didit, like 100%, but I'm still
livid about it.
I haven't forgiven her for it.
And I will say one thing I'vestruggled with majorly in the

(56:03):
past probably year, year and ahalf is forgiveness.
Um, I do not like forgivingpeople for slighting me or
slighting a family member oreven themselves.
You know, it's like you dosomething stupid to yourself,
it's like I don't even forgiveyou.
And I do want to go into this,and this is kind of the segue I
was gonna get to, is you know,the band, what happened with the

(56:24):
band?
You know, Paul, Ryan, you and mewere in a band, and a lot of
shit went down.
Fuck, I don't even remember allof it, honestly.
I really don't.
I remember certain key things.
Um, but I can tell you that youhave, you know, you and you and
Paul, you know, had that fallingout, and that that relationship

(56:46):
never really recovered, and atthis point, probably isn't going
to.
Um, and no need to go into liketrue details about that, but the
the thing I want to share aboutthat is that you have accepted
it.
You were like, you know what, ifif this isn't something he wants
to cultivate, then I don't needto either.
You know, this is something thatboth of us can meet in the
middle on, find uh, you know, uha common ground, you know, and

(57:09):
both admit fault, takeaccountability, but also forgive
the other one.
You know, that relationship cancan can somehow a bit come back.
Maybe it'll never be what itwas, but it can return to a
level.
Um, but he's not ready for that,and that's okay.
But what I was gonna say isyou've accepted that.
You know, but who hasn'taccepted that?
It's me.

(57:30):
I mean, I remember after, youknow, the last time you two were
together and nothing really cameof that, you were pretty quick
to just be like, I know you wereprobably hurt by it.
You know, I don't want to takethat away from you.
But I will say I was hurt bythat a lot, and I couldn't let
it go, and I got mad at him, andI was even mad at you for being

(57:51):
okay with it.
You know, I don't know if Ireally shared that.
But again, it's just like, butagain, that's on me, completely
on me.
It's like, again, it's like asituation with my my wife,
Katie.
You know, uh, I don't want toget into this because it's
personal to her, but there'ssome there's a family member of
hers that kind of has slightedus as a group, and you know, she
has been like, okay, you knowwhat?

(58:14):
That's on them, that's on thatperson, and she can let it go.
But you know who can't let itgo?
Again, it's me.
It's like this shit keeps me upat night.
And it's just like the peoplewho are actually being affected
by it can let it go.
So again, it all comes fromacceptance.
And I gotta say, you know, thatis obviously a huge crux of my

(58:37):
issue, my mental struggle rightnow is just accepting anything.
Um, you know, there's a completelack of forgiveness, there's a
complete lack of acceptance, andI'm trying to find out how to
mentally get there.
And oddly enough, and Guff, youknow about this, is you know, I
had to put my dog down, Gotti.

(58:58):
Um it was Tuesday.
And, you know, I've beenfighting depression, you know,
I've been fighting it off, andyou know, I'd have my moments of
happiness, moments of, you know,it would kind of ebb and flow.
Um, and you know, there'd been alot of things that have happened
in the past month or two thatreally tanked me, you know, but
I I could usually fight my wayback.

(59:18):
However, that was the straw thatbroke the camel's back.
So I don't mind admitting I'm ina full state of depression right
now.
Like there's there's nothingother than just depression.
But what's interesting is youknow what they say, kind of when
you hit that low, you can kindof build yourself back up, you
know.
Um, but what's interesting isthat, you know, things that
would normally make me veryangry, and I'm talking like

(59:40):
personal slights, whetherthey're big or small, or
personal offenses, whether it'speople I love, people like you
know, just societal things I'msaying, like, oh, that's wrong.
You know, it's like, well shit,like I uh now I don't have the
fight in me.
You know, I just I don't have itin me to get heated.
So now it's just it is bydefault kind of giving up on

(01:00:03):
fighting about it, which I thinkis playing into accepting.

SPEAKER_00 (01:00:08):
I know exactly what you're talking about.
Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 (01:00:11):
So I you want to speak on that because you've
found it.
You've gotten there.
And I know I'm sure that ebbsand flows for you, and like
sometimes doesn't work, but youhave figured out how to do that.
So Fucking enlighten me, bro.

SPEAKER_00 (01:00:26):
I don't know if I truly found it.
Um I have my extreme ups and Ihave my extreme downs.
When I'm up, I'm happy go lucky,you know, willing to do anything
and every whatever with anybody.
Um but when I get low, I justshut the world out.

(01:00:50):
I ghost.
I just want people to leave methe fuck alone.
I can't tell you what triggersit because I don't know.
It just hits me like a ton ofbricks.
Um I just get to the I just getto the point I just want people
to leave me the fuck alone, giveme my space, and when I come out
of it, I'll reach out to you.

(01:01:10):
But I can't I can't mentally orphysically tell people that when
I get into that mindset.
I someone someone like ifsomeone reaches out to me, I may
not respond.
That's probably because I'm in alow and I just want to be left
to fuck alone.
Right.
But I can't force myself tocommunicate that.

(01:01:33):
So I don't know how to getmyself to that point where I can
mentally and physically getmyself to just say, hey, not
doing so hot.
Talk to you when I'm feelingbetter.

SPEAKER_03 (01:01:43):
Right.

SPEAKER_00 (01:01:43):
I don't I I don't know how to get to that point.

SPEAKER_02 (01:01:45):
But that's the thing.
Yeah, but here's the thing, andI'll go ahead and share it.
Is you know, recently, you know,I I you know I've been
struggling, and clearly you wereon your end, right?
And I was kind of quote unquoteexpecting you to reach out, and
you didn't, but you were havingyour own struggles, and that was
your approach to quote unquotehealing.
Um, but you know, I don't have alot of people that I trust to

(01:02:08):
reach out to, and many of themare fair weather friends.
You know, they're around whenwhen things are okay for them,
but when things are bad for me,you know, they're not around,
and you've never been that, andyou're still not, by the way.
But you know, I and you know, Ikind of sent you that voice
message about you know how I wasreally hurt by that, and blah
blah blah blah, you know, and Iwas really, you know, but that
that's all to share.

(01:02:28):
That's not to call you out aboutanything bad at all, it's to
share that you needed thatspace, and that is how you
process things, and there'snothing wrong with that.
That that is the only point ofsharing that.
It's not to demonize you, it'snot to call you out in front of
all these people, it's not aboutthat, it's that you had to

(01:02:49):
process.
And in Italy, when I told youthat, you you took full
accountability for not beingthere.
But however, what I'm getting athere is that sometimes you gotta
take care of your fucking self.
You know, that's important.
Um, and you know, you can'treally help anybody else until
you get yourself in a goodspace.
And there is something to that.
Now, kind of the whole ghostingthing, and this is for anybody.

(01:03:12):
I'm not a fan of that ingeneral.
Um, and I guess that's whatyou're saying you need to work
on is be like, hey, like I hearyou, but right now I'm not
capable of helping you.
I can barely help myself.
So, you know, give me the timeto get my mindset right so I can
help you.
And that's what, you know,clearly you kind of do that, but

(01:03:33):
you you had the ghosting aspectto it, which is what triggered
me to be upset.
I'm not saying it's wrong thatyou that you took the time, but
it it really hurt me that Ididn't know why.

SPEAKER_00 (01:03:45):
Yeah, but I needed uh hear from you how you're
feeling about how you felt aboutthat.
And it it woke me up.
I was like, you know what, hehe's right.
Uh yeah, you know, like goingforward, like if I get to that
point, yeah, I'll I'll I'llreach out to you and see if
you're doing okay.
If you're doing alright, thenthen I then I know that you're

(01:04:05):
good, you're you're solid, thenI could go ahead and continue my
leave me the fuck a lunch stage.
But if you're not okay, then Iwill reach out to you, and you
can talk whatever you need.

SPEAKER_02 (01:04:22):
I mean, it it does seem like you know, since you
know we we got together today,even, you know, it's like we
both were talking about things.
Um, and it really helped me justto be around you, you know.
I I hopefully that was uh the uhsame, likewise, but um but
that's the thing though, is thatyou know, feeling that safety to

(01:04:42):
just tell somebody like, hey,like right now, I I really can't
do this.
Um I think that actually showsmore respect and more uh comfort
to the other person that hey,you know, this person just
doesn't have the capability tohandle both what they're going
through and what I'm goingthrough.

(01:05:02):
Um and but here's here's whatI'm getting at here, too, is
that I am horrible.
Because not only will I not sayno to people to my detriment, I
will reach out to people.
And when I don't have thecapability to handle my own
problems or like support, youknow, my my family mentally

(01:05:23):
sometimes, um, I will stillreach out to everyone around me
to try to quote unquote fix whatthey're going through.
Um, or try to, you know, solvetheir problems or anything like
that.
I I'm uh I am very much a fixer.
And admittedly, a lot of thevalue I find in myself in life
right now and for a long time,this well before Max, is the

(01:05:46):
help and services, quoteunquote, that I can do for
others.
You know, that's my value.
It's not I'm valuable as aperson in itself, it's that I'm
valuable because I can helpothers.
So being that that's quoteunquote my identity, that's what
I try, that's what I do.
But anymore, it is absolutely tomy detriment.
Um I have to accept the choicesothers make in their lives.

(01:06:11):
And um, you know uh I'mstruggling a bit with some of
the choices that Tony has made.
Uh Indy Packett, you know, mynormal co-host.
Um he's he's he's in a realslump right now, a pretty bad
one.
And it's it is due to somechoices he's made.
But and we talked about this,like him and I, but I can't
change the decisions he's made,and I have to accept what he's

(01:06:33):
done.
And if that's to his detriment,that's fine.
But a lot of what I'vediscovered also in therapy is a
lot of the reason I try to fix alot of things for others, and
you included, Gov, this isanybody I care about, and even
people I'm not that damn closeto, is I want to spare people
the pain I went through.
You know, I've been through apretty significant amount of

(01:06:54):
trauma and pain in my life.
You know, I go through kind oftorture every day with what I
have.
And the problem is if I try tofix everything for everyone
else, I I am depriving them ofgrowth.
Because what is growth?
You have to go through the painand suffering to grow.

(01:07:15):
So you can't have everythingfixed for you by someone else.
And I guess what I'm getting attoo is that it's fucking stupid
of me to even try.
I mean, it's a very quoteunquote noble cause or a very
loving thing, but it's to mydetriment too, because I can't
fix everybody's problems.
In fact, I can't really fixanybody's.

(01:07:36):
And if somebody doesn't, youknow, take my advice or you
know, continues down thedetrimental path that they're
on, I get pissed off about it.
I'm purred and all this stuff.
It's just like again, all ofthis plays into acceptance.
So I do.

SPEAKER_00 (01:07:55):
I think my biggest thing, you know, with you, you
know, I'm gonna be there for you100%.
I think maybe my biggestcontribution to maybe helping
others uh through my experiencesand what I went through is I
can't obviously just say youcan't fix their problems, but I
know I can maybe give advice andfeedback to others maybe that

(01:08:20):
are experiencing cheating orinfidelity.
Right.
Problems in their relationship,marriage, what have you.

SPEAKER_02 (01:08:33):
Well, it's because your friend went through that
and he's really opened up to youso much about that, and it hurt
him so bad.
So when you see someone thatclose to you, damn near I mean,
in their fucking lives oversomething like that, you know,
that's something you can't helpbut take personally and advocate
for when you see it out there.

(01:08:54):
Um, you know, my wife's uh dad,you know, was was unfaithful to
her mom and and it broke up themarriage.
And what's crazy is that wholefamily family unit, both her
dad's side and her mom's side,were just so close.
I mean, you don't get thatanymore.
Like where this both about bothuh spouse's sides of the family

(01:09:14):
are like just so integrated,it's such a beautiful thing.
Um God, I I've been trying topush that honestly with my
wife's, you know, mymother-in-law's side,
especially.
And my sorry, the family, Ireally for a long time was
trying to set up events whereeveryone would be there, or like
set up dinners, or set uplunches, uh, things at the

(01:09:35):
house, like, hey, let's let'sget and unfortunately, nobody
really put the effort in to kindof join me in that train.
Nobody's unfriendly, actually,they all admire each other very
much, but to actually createthat kind of bond is one thing I
really have always wanted.
I've always kind of quoteunquote dreamt of this massive
family on both my spouse's andmy side, and it never really

(01:09:58):
came together.
Um and I forgot where I wasgoing with that.

SPEAKER_00 (01:10:05):
Um, we were gonna start talking about uh the band.
Yes, thank you.
Bring it back around.
So back around town.

SPEAKER_02 (01:10:19):
That was a decent little rant, though.
Um but you speak on if you wantto speak on that stuff, because
your memory's better on it, andultimately you unfortunately
were the one who got the the badend of all that.
You you lost the relationships,you you lost all that.
So please speak on that, yourexperience and all that if you

(01:10:42):
would.

SPEAKER_00 (01:10:43):
Oh yeah, with when we started the band, I remember
we all took a trip to MyrtleBeach in 2012.
And there was, I think there wasuh rumblings, ideas going
around.
Because you know Ryan and Paul,they already knew how to play
guitar.

(01:11:04):
Obviously, you're a drummer.
The only thing that was missingwas a bass player.
Right.
And I was hearing through thegrapevine, you guys might be
looking into that, doingsomething.
They had, I think Paul and Ryanhad somebody in mind that maybe
they wanted to bring in as abass player.

SPEAKER_03 (01:11:22):
Right.

SPEAKER_00 (01:11:22):
And on a personal level, I couldn't stand that
motherfucker.
So I was like, hey, these are mybuds.

SPEAKER_02 (01:11:30):
God, I don't remember what that was.
You don't even have to share it,but I don't even remember the
fuck that was.

SPEAKER_00 (01:11:36):
Anyway.

SPEAKER_02 (01:11:38):
So now I do know I do remember.
I do remember.
Okay.

SPEAKER_00 (01:11:42):
So no, I went and picked up a bass guitar and
started picking at it and pickedpicked it up pretty quick.

SPEAKER_02 (01:11:50):
Oh yeah, you didn't.

SPEAKER_00 (01:11:51):
And then everything just started everything just
started fall falling intomotion.
Um started getting equipment andstarted practicing and those are
good, yeah.
Um so where it started with mydownfall on a personal level

(01:12:12):
with with the band was I hadpersonal issues at home.
I was not happy with my homelife.
Right.
Um mental and physical level.

SPEAKER_02 (01:12:27):
Well, let's just say you had a shit ton of bad things
going on.
Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (01:12:32):
That's as far as I'm gonna say about it.
Um had that going on, and thewhole purpose, a lot of the the
big purpose in my mind too, onceit got started, was that I
wanted some kind of peace andsolace in this band.
I put all my effort and energyinto this thing because it just

(01:12:56):
felt like any kind it was theonly kind of normalcy that I
had.
Right.
So I put all my effort andenergy in this thing, and I took
it seriously, almost it what tooseriously.
Um didn't help.
I was suppressing a lot offeelings that I had at home.

(01:13:16):
I didn't share a whole lot.
I know talks and I, Ryan wouldhave me and Ryan would have you
know, back when we used to workat Cracker Barrel and stuff.
Right.
Uh after work, sit in his car, Isit in my car, and or would just
sit outside.
Stand outside and just talk forhours at a time.

(01:13:37):
Great conversations, we'd talkabout life, a little about
everything.
Talk about you talk aboutcollege and how he's doing.
I might have shared a few thingswith him, but I know I kept a
lot of it back.
And so me taking the band sodamn seriously, it got to the

(01:13:59):
point where I would get upsetwith Ryan and Paul if or even
you, if I felt like someone elsewasn't taking it as seriously as
I thought it should be.

SPEAKER_03 (01:14:13):
Right.

SPEAKER_00 (01:14:14):
Um I wasn't thinking we're gonna try and make it big
or you know, we're gonna befull-time making money on the
road, kind of band.
Right.
It was just something that Ineeded, it was like my therapy.
Uh away from the craziness ofhome.

SPEAKER_02 (01:14:33):
Right.

SPEAKER_00 (01:14:34):
And I took I took that too personally.
Well, here's the thing, I mean,it Paul was busy with college,
you know, and Ryan.
They're doing their collegething.
I wasn't, I was just working,and so I had the time on my
hands to make it as serious as Iwanted it.
And I felt like if other peopleif other people didn't

(01:14:56):
reciprocate that, I took itpersonally and I shouldn't have.
Um, I'm not making excuses formy actions towards them or
anybody, but that's where mymindset was.
And I also had another familymember that that helped get into
my head, get into my ear aboutwhat we should be doing, how we

(01:15:18):
should be doing it.
If other people are taking itseriously, then they need to be
gone.
And yeah, I I took that adviceand everything that was said to
me, and I let it impact ourfriendships.

SPEAKER_02 (01:15:36):
Well, and here's the thing that that individual that
you mentioned uh was someone whohad some success as a band
leader.
And if that is what you caredabout, like that was your
therapy, that was your outlet,that was what you wanted to
really pursue.
And you're putting so much timeand energy and and love,
honestly, into it.

(01:15:57):
And the reason I think thatcorrupted you so much is because
you did trust that person at thetime.
And you trusted what they saidabout what you cared about.
I think that's why you weremanipulated, honestly.
And I don't think this personwas trying to manipulate you on
purpose necessarily, butunfortunately, you know, with

(01:16:19):
all the trust issues you had andyour upbringing and the
challenges that you've mentionedfor someone that you you trusted
at the time to be in your earabout what's right and wrong for
this complete, honestly perfectoutlet that you needed at the
time, that did corrupt what youthought of the whole situation.

(01:16:42):
And how couldn't it?
I mean, you know what I mean.
You you were very fragile at thetime.

SPEAKER_00 (01:16:48):
I had that, and I'll and I was also um a huge
perfectionist.
I would be I'd get so pissed offand so quick to anger if I
messed something up, if someoneelse messed something up.

SPEAKER_03 (01:17:03):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (01:17:04):
Um bad is just my therapist.
I just want it to go smoothly, Iwant to do something right with
my life.
Um, I remember times uh we'd beplaying certain songs.
I I I I couldn't play it.
And it would piss me off to thepoint of like no return.

SPEAKER_02 (01:17:27):
Uh I remember.
I mean, there were times youwell, I mean, there were times
that here's the thing.
I mean, hmm, I don't mind doingmy own horn here.
I rarely quote unquote messedup.
What I would do isovercomplicate everything.
You know, I always had to playfucking odd time signatures over
songs that were in, you know,famous songs that were in 4.4
and you know, like do all thesefills and things.

(01:17:48):
I wasn't playing to the to thethe band.
You know, I was playing for me,not for the band, and we'll get
into late.
I mean, we can get into it justnow a little bit, is how when
you grow up, that ego goes away.
You know, yeah, I'm I'verecorded drum parts for for
friends now, like Ryan and acouple others that it I still
include my own quote unquote,you know, little sticks and

(01:18:10):
little gimmicks that I do, butit is subtle, it does fit the
music.
You can still incorporate yourown voice, but keeping it you
know, serving the music.
But back then, you know, my mygoal was to be the next fucking
Virgil Donati.
So everything I did was tryingto just overcomplicate
everything, which I knowfrustrated you as well.
Um, and you you know, you wouldgo down that down that path a

(01:18:33):
little bit with me, but you youwere probably in a way the most
mature player of that band.
And the reason I say that isbecause you learned the songs
verbatim, you knew them left andright, and you were so aware of
the lyrics, you were aware ofthe timing, the and I was too,

(01:18:53):
but I didn't care about adheringto that.
I cared about oh, let's see howcrazy I can make this part, that
literally nobody in the bandwanted me to do.
But being that, if I can safelysay, being probably the most
skilled player in the band, Idon't think anybody really
wanted to challenge me on thattoo much.

SPEAKER_00 (01:19:11):
Well, like prime example of the anger with myself
and how I how it affected youguys.
Yeah, I don't know if youremember this, but you remember
we were playing at Ryan'sparents' house one night.
Um I think it was some kind ofget together for her mom or for
his mom.
Yeah.
And we were gonna play uhhysteria by Muse.

(01:19:34):
I do, yeah.
In my mind, I could not playthat right.
You guys said that I played itfine, but in my mind, it did not
sound right.
I hated the way it sounded, Ihated the way I played it.
I got so pissed off, I just quitplaying while everyone else was.
I just shut my shit off and Iwalked away.

SPEAKER_02 (01:19:53):
I do remember that very distinctly.

SPEAKER_00 (01:19:55):
And then you guys stopped playing and y'all came
out to try to find me.

SPEAKER_02 (01:19:59):
Yeah, and you were kind of were you like kind of
hanging out back behind the carsor something?
Yep.
And and you literally you nevertold us really why you were mad.
Um if I remember.

SPEAKER_00 (01:20:11):
I hated I I was such a perfectionist with myself.
I hated the way I played it.
I hated the way I played thatsong.
It sounded like shit to me.
I was embarrassed by it.
And I felt like at the time, theonly the only way I can get away
from that embarrassment withinmyself was to just fucking stop
and drop and get the fuck out ofit.

SPEAKER_02 (01:20:32):
Yeah, and and I mean ultimately that kind of thing
was part on all of us.
Because honestly, I I mean Iknew you were a perfectionist,
and it wasn't until the latertime of the band itself that you
and I really started talkingabout things.
You know, you and I were notincredibly um close.
Really the first major part ofthat, I think.

(01:20:54):
Honestly, I don't know if youand I really got truly close
until things started to kind ofimplode a little bit.

SPEAKER_00 (01:20:59):
Um But that's how it hurt, that's how it hurt you
guys.
My behavior hurt you guys.

SPEAKER_02 (01:21:05):
Um, yeah, and and we just didn't know what was going
on.
And the thing is though, you youI didn't know exactly all this
approach you're just nowsharing.
Um but it totally makes sense.
I mean, here's the thing.
I mean, you remember I would getmad at the band because you guys
didn't you know, if I would playon time signatures and shit, you
guys wouldn't be able to do it.

(01:21:27):
And that would piss me offbecause I had these I these
honestly completely bullshitaspirations and ideas that okay,
we were one to be a cover band,right?
Well, what do cover bands do?
They play the songs fuckingverbatim, you know, that you
just don't have cover bands thatdo what I was wanting to do.
So, you know, that was stupid ofme.
You were a perfectionist to thepoint if anything was wrong.

(01:21:50):
And I'd say you would even getmore upset when you were playing
something incorrect.
Because I know you woulddefinitely get yeah, you would
definitely get on Paul and Ryanwhen they were off a lot.
You know, if Ryan got the lyricswrong or you know, Paul played
out of time and things likethat, you know, you you would
definitely get very upset withthem.
But I distinctly remember mostof the time when you would like

(01:22:11):
walk off would be, I mean,apparently it was when you
messed up, and I'm not sure Iwas fully aware of that, but now
I look back, I'm like, shit,that is exactly what it was.
Because you wouldn't tell uswhat was wrong, you know.
You would just kind of just shutyour shit off and walk off.

SPEAKER_00 (01:22:26):
Yeah, it was a a mix of all the above, whether it was
me, whether it'd you guys, Ididn't disclose, I didn't
communicate that with you guys.

SPEAKER_02 (01:22:35):
Right, right.

SPEAKER_00 (01:22:36):
And uh that's my fault.

SPEAKER_02 (01:22:38):
Um well, and again, we're all young.
I don't care what any of us say.
We were young trying to figurethings out, and you know, you
had you had circumstances thatnone of us did.
I'm sorry, you did.
Um now, whether you handlethings quote unquote right or
wrong, you know, whatever, butlike you still had so much going
on in your life that none of usdid that was literally

(01:23:00):
traumatic.
So, you know, I I can tell you Iknow how much trauma warps your
fucking brain.
Like I'm talking in general, andyou still handled things pretty
stellar, uh, in my opinion.

SPEAKER_00 (01:23:13):
Well, my one of my biggest regrets was um Paul.
How uh how that how we handledPaul.

SPEAKER_02 (01:23:21):
Um well, yeah, and we should talk about that.
I mean, so you know, uh Paul umwas um obviously one of our dear
friends, still one of mine, um,and unfortunately that
relationship disintegrated uhduring about for about six
months because uh we were so h-up hoity-toity, high and mighty

(01:23:42):
bullshit that we kicked him outof the band because uh yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (01:23:50):
Yeah, I was gonna give a little backstory on that
one.
Go ahead.
Um so going back to the bandbeing in my therapy, honestly,
my everything I did at thatpoint in my life.
Paul was in school, right?
And he was focused on school, hehad guitar lessons, and he had a

(01:24:10):
band, he had a lot of movingpieces going all at once.

SPEAKER_02 (01:24:13):
Right.
Um He was also trying to getinto the Jacob School of Music
at the time, if you remember.

SPEAKER_00 (01:24:18):
Yes.
Uh there'd be times he wouldshow up to practice, not
prepared, didn't know what wewere supposed to be playing or
practicing that day.

SPEAKER_03 (01:24:28):
Right.

SPEAKER_00 (01:24:28):
And it'd been a slow burn over time, and that really
irritated me.

SPEAKER_03 (01:24:35):
Right.

SPEAKER_00 (01:24:36):
Very much.
Um it got to the point where Iwas talking to that certain
family member about it.
And that's where the idea ofkicking him to the curb came
from.
Throwing him out in the snow.
And at the time I thought, yep,that's that's exactly what we're

(01:24:59):
probably gonna do.
You know what?
You're right.
I'm gonna talk to the others andget their feelings on it and see
what happens.

SPEAKER_03 (01:25:05):
Right.

SPEAKER_00 (01:25:08):
And so I was influenced to talk to, you know,
all of us came together, talkedabout it.
We all mutually agreed.

SPEAKER_02 (01:25:16):
Yeah, we did.
Yeah, we did.
Um totally agreed.

SPEAKER_00 (01:25:20):
Shit, I gotta take a I gotta take a little step back
from there.
Me being irritated at all.
Um I don't this this is the partwhere it's fuzzy with me.
You guys are having bettermemory, probably, of it than I
would.
Um we're practicing.
For some reason we stopped.

(01:25:40):
Who was downstairs?
You know where about you knowwhere I'm leading up to.

SPEAKER_02 (01:25:45):
You want me do you want me to go ahead and talk
about it?

SPEAKER_00 (01:25:47):
Yeah, because I don't that that part's I know
what I did, but I don't it'sfuzzy of how it got to that
point.

SPEAKER_02 (01:25:54):
So what happened is I mean, you know, we were
playing and there was kind of Idon't remember what the dispute
was, but we ended up having tobreak because you know Paul and
Ryan were kind of together, andyou and I were, because you and
I I think we're on the same pageof what was wrong, and then Paul
and Ryan were.
So you and I were upstairs, youand I were kind of fuming, you
you in particular, and then Pauland Ryan were downstairs, and
then Paul started kind ofbitching pretty uh pretty

(01:26:17):
directly about what he thoughtwas wrong, which obviously was
directed at you, and you were insuch a frustrated, fragile state
that you ran down the stairs andyou pinned him down and you
slapped him around.

SPEAKER_00 (01:26:30):
Yeah, that's what I remember.
I remember hearing something.

SPEAKER_02 (01:26:34):
I don't even remember what the guy said.
But you went you ran downstairsand and you you slap you
literally slapped him around.
You didn't really hurt him, butyou you you you got him pretty
good.
And here's the thing, Ryan and Ijust watched.
Um and I do the reason Iwatched, it wasn't that I was
afraid to interfere.
It wasn't about that.
It was that I felt he deservedit, if I'm honest, and he knows

(01:26:57):
this.
Um, you know, he was really hewas being a complete ass at that
time about it.
He was not he was being verylike very um aggressive and
using some language he shouldn'thave been in that situation.
Um so yeah, I I honestly felt hedeserved it.
So yeah, I I just watched ithappen.
And then, you know, you ended upgetting off of him, and um, I

(01:27:21):
frankly, I don't exactlyremember completely what
happened after that.
I think you might have walkedoff.
And I'm pretty sure I went withyou to kind of help calm you
down.
And you know, Paul was pretty,you know, sh shocked by it, and
Ryan was too, but honestly, Iknew it was coming.
You know I did.
Um, because I was half temptedto go down there and start it on
him myself.

(01:27:42):
I think you just beat you beatme to the punch, plus plus he
was targeting you directly.
But you know, that was obviouslythat would have been obviously
before we kicked him out, right?

SPEAKER_00 (01:27:52):
Yeah, it was, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 (01:27:53):
Okay, so I mean, obviously that was that was a
pretty big downfall, period.
Um, and the fact is, yes, tophysically attack anybody,
especially a friend, um, was notgood, you know.
But here's the thing, I I didn'ttry to stop you.
I don't think I egged you on,I'll say that, but I definitely
didn't try to stop you.
Um and I watched it happen, andso did Ryan.

(01:28:16):
So I can tell you for sure why Idid is because I thought he
deserved it.
And, you know, as I mentionedearlier, I was a pretty rough
and tumble friend too.
So um, you know, I would getphysical with friends a lot to a
point that was uncomfortable uhfor them.
Uh I was just kind of a roughkid that way.
Um so you know, that issomething that was just
something that wasn't gonnaaffect me, because that would
have been my fucking approachtoo, if I'd gotten there.

(01:28:37):
And I think I would have.
And honestly, I would have gonefarther.
I probably would have gottenmuch more um, much more injury.
I would have injured him,probably legit.
Um either way, kind of that wasthe big point of kind of
implosion for the band.
And then eventually, you know,like you said, your family
member who was very close andvery influential um on kind of

(01:28:59):
the way the band should be,blah, blah, blah, blah, blah,
um, kind of got in your head.
And then um, you know, you weended up you came to us and we
agreed on it, by the way.
Um, I was gonna go about it too.
You know, and for the other forme and Ryan to pretend like we
weren't would be incorrect.
Um, I don't know if that'ssomething that Ryan has owned up
to or maybe even me publicly.

(01:29:20):
I mean, I think behind thescenes I certainly have, but we
were all gonna go about itbecause we were all like, oh, he
is um a detriment to the bandbecause he just wouldn't learn
his material.
That's honestly what the crux ofit was.
Um, you know, if he'd come inand really put effort into
learning stuff and and thingslike that, I think we would have
all felt differently.

(01:29:40):
But yeah, you were the spearheadfor it.
There's no doubt about that.
Um, but the fact is we weregung-po about it, too.
I just think you we the Ryan andI didn't have quote unquote the
guts or the um strength, if youwant to call it that, to be
like, you know what, this iswhat we need to do.
But so, you know, we all endedup meeting in the living room at
my house, and um, you know, weended up altogether kind of

(01:30:04):
deciding to kick him out.
Now we did so gently, you know,we weren't trying to sever the
relationship, that was not ourgoal.
It really wasn't.
Um, but of course, why wouldn'the have taken that badly?
You know, all three of us,kindly or not, did ask our dear
friend that, hey, we don't wantyou to be anymore because you're
essentially fucking us up.

(01:30:25):
Right?
Um, so I look back, and here'smy thing.
I'm like, A, we were a fuckingearly college level fucking
cover band.
Like, what the hell?
You know, I mean what are wetrying to prove?
You know, we had nothing worthsevering a friendship over.
And part of it, I mean, you andPaul really got strained, like

(01:30:45):
really strained during thatperiod.
Um, and you know, during thattime, Ryan definitely sided
pretty heavily with Paul overthings, and I was a bit in the
middle.
I mean, I I sided with bothsides.
I I didn't really prefer a side,but when that all officially in
the end imploded, where youknow, you you had nothing to do
with them, they had nothing todo with you.

(01:31:06):
I I did stay kind of connectedto both sides for a while.
Um but the fact is none of thaton all of our sides was worth
that breakup or that stress, oryou know, that should have been
fun.
That should have been and itstarted off that way, I think

(01:31:26):
for all of us.
It started off exciting.
It started off like, hey, yeah,it really did.
Starting to fuck all of us, butthen again, like we mentioned
before, is we all had adifferent agenda.
All of us did, and none of itwas right because we well, not
right, but we just didn't wantthe same things.
So I think if we had actuallyjust had the fucking
conversations instead of being,you know, stupid um and being so

(01:31:49):
uh bullheaded about things.
But here's the thing again, wewere young and we had these
unrealistic ideations or ideasof what the band should be, and
but oh the band, the band beforeeverything.

SPEAKER_00 (01:32:00):
Well, and I had so much anger, so I was so quick to
anger about dumb shit because ofissues that I had going on, and
it was my failure to communicatethat with you guys, because you
guys were just left out in thedark.
We were on truly feeling.

SPEAKER_02 (01:32:18):
For sure, and and that I would say that's really
your fault.

SPEAKER_00 (01:32:22):
You had so much going on and you had to develop
some I've carried so much weighton my shoulders over all these
years of how I conducted myself,how I treated you guys.

SPEAKER_02 (01:32:34):
Uh yeah, I know you did.
I know you do, and I I imagineyou still probably do to an
extent.
I mean, I don't know.

SPEAKER_00 (01:32:39):
No, I I I still do.
Because uh Man, there was likesome fucking time machine or
some shit.
That day I was charging afterPaul.
Man, I wish I'd go back and slapmyself around.
Hey, fucking get over yourself.
That's your fucking best friend.

(01:33:01):
You know, it's not realistic,but it's like, man.

SPEAKER_02 (01:33:04):
Yeah, but here's the thing.
I mean, yeah, you went physicalwith him, but he was very much
verbally attacking you as well.
So both were wrong.
Um, you just took a physicalapproach that kind of made it
worse than what he was doing.
Well, speaking, I would I wouldargue if he wasn't doing that,
you wouldn't have done that.
Right or wrong, I don't thinkyou would have attacked him.

SPEAKER_00 (01:33:24):
But I don't blame Paul.
Paul was completely valid withhow he was speaking to me
because I see now how I wasthen.
So Paul had every right to saywhat he was saying.
Uh and I own up to that.
Uh in Ryan, I never gave Ryanhis damn flowers.

(01:33:47):
Like, I wish I would have toldhim how proud I was of him when
he started learning to play andsing uh simultaneously.
Uh I couldn't have done that.
There's no way I could have donethat.

SPEAKER_02 (01:34:02):
I can't do it.

SPEAKER_00 (01:34:04):
And I never gave Ryan his flowers for for doing
that, stepping up to do that.

SPEAKER_01 (01:34:11):
Yeah, and that was all we did was.

SPEAKER_00 (01:34:15):
No, it no, it wasn't.

SPEAKER_03 (01:34:20):
Right, and we're gonna be.
Right.

SPEAKER_00 (01:34:23):
And I'll be on his ass.
And I'm and looking back on it,looking back on it, I'm like,
what the fuck are you doing,man?
Like, do you not realize whathe's trying to accomplish right
now?
And all you're doing is tearinghim down, and you should be
uplifting him and giving himsome confidence.

(01:34:44):
Because he would probably messup because he knows I'm fucking
right next to him.
Gonna give him a death stare ifhe fucks up.

SPEAKER_02 (01:34:51):
No, and he and he will mention that you were you
were very intimidating and andand definitely added a lot of
pressure.
So that that's for sure.
But I did I did too.
You know, I I expected a lot outof the band that I don't know
that really most of if noteverybody was really capable of
doing, but like I said, I reallywanted a different direction.
But here's the thing, I I mean,yes, um you're you're absolutely

(01:35:13):
accurate about all that, butdon't you have to also let them
take accountability for theirpart in it, and myself included.
And I'd say especially Paul,because that that's the
relationship that hasn't beenmended and probably won't be,
and and and that is that is onhim, you know.
And I'm I'm not gonna get heatedor anything about it.
It's not about that.
You know, he really can'tforgive that situation.

(01:35:37):
And again, I yes, you youhandled some things pretty
rough, and your approach waspretty rough, but we all of us
didn't know what you were goingthrough, A.
B, you weren't comfortabletelling us because I mean I know
a lot of what you were goingthrough then now, and I can tell
you that if those things weregoing on in my life, I don't

(01:35:58):
know that I would trust reallymuch many people back then, if
anybody, with it because ofmaybe the reciprocations that
could have of others knowing.
So there's just a lot that I'msorry, you have to give yourself
grace on too.
Um, you know, there were a lotof things that were the perfect

(01:36:22):
catalyst for what happened.
And again, I I'm sorry, I can'tI can't get off this horse.
We were kids, that was 15 someyears ago.

SPEAKER_00 (01:36:32):
I agree.
I'm just I'm reflecting.
You know, well, and you should.

SPEAKER_02 (01:36:36):
I mean, yeah, and I'm not saying they're right and
and they're not uh objectively,but again, and I'm not saying
you have to you're not makingquote unquote excuses, or you're
you're really just trying to saythis is why.
And that's valid.
Saying this is why I did it,it's not right, but you are
taking accountability that youdid it.
You are taking accountabilityfor asking for forgiveness, you

(01:36:58):
are taking accountability forthe fact that you've gone
through a lot of pain ever sincementally and taken that weight
upon yourself.
And you know what?
Nobody else has taken thatweight on them or off of you.
You know, um, Ryan and I uh havetaken accountability for our
parts in it, and I think Paul toan extent, but unfortunately, he

(01:37:20):
was he was hurt really deeply byall that.
And admittedly, you two are theones who are butting heads so
hard.
And honestly, you two had theclosest friendship.

SPEAKER_00 (01:37:29):
Yeah, we did.
Me and Paul were really close.

SPEAKER_02 (01:37:31):
And I think that's why both of you were so hurt by
how that went.
Um and being that you were a bitmore of the aggressor in that
situation, I think is why he hereally struggles to to forgive
or let that go.
Um, and as I've said on herebefore, as I've said many times

(01:37:52):
to him and even to you, it'slike I would love it if he would
hear you out, just hear you out,and just say, even shake hands
and say, We're good.
And if that's the extent of whathappens the rest of this life
between you two, at least in myopinion, which doesn't really
matter because it's not betweenme, but in my opinion, that
would be enough, you know, justto know that hey, we're good and

(01:38:17):
it's forgotten, it's forgiven,it's whatever.
Now, I don't know that how youfeel about that.
I think it seems like you'vekind of said that, you know,
that that's at least what youwould want, bare minimum.
Um, but you know, you you'veyou've done your part to you
know say all this shit in frontof all these people, um, and
that's a big step, you know.

(01:38:37):
I mean, to say this in front of60,000 some people and and
profess how, you know, clearlytake accountability for for your
quote unquote wrongdoings, andbut also share why you did it is
also a big deal.
And the fact that we were kidsand none of us understood what
the hell anyway was goingthrough, frankly, I was going
through a decent amount of shit,you know, and I honestly I I

(01:39:01):
Ryan was for sure.
Um and I think Paul was juststressed out by a lot of what he
was trying to do.
And I mean, a literally a lot ofthe reason he didn't learn the
songs is because he was tryingto get into the Jacob school.
So, you know, he was reallyfocusing on those guitar parts,
and unfortunately, he he neverdid make it in.
And uh, you know, after I thinka few years, he it took him a

(01:39:22):
couple tries to realize thatthat wasn't gonna be his path.
And of course, look where he'sat now.
He's a very, very successfulindividual.
So honestly, it worked out.
Um, I can tell you, you know, Imade it into the Jacobs School.
Um, I just I made it in.
So and what's funny is, youknow, I don't know if you I
don't know if you remember theepisode with uh Tony and Jay,

(01:39:43):
but Tony tried to get in and hedidn't get into the Jacobs
school when he when he applied.
And and I'm sharing this not tobrag.
I'm getting to a point.
So, you know, he couldn't makeit in, but you know, he ended up
going to a different school andobviously became a world-class
drummer, and he really wasn'table to do with it what he
wanted.

(01:40:03):
He really never had the thecareer he wanted with drumming.
And obviously, as I mentionedbefore, you know, he's really
hit a slum with with his lifeand with his drumming, and to
the point he doesn't even wantto play anymore.
Um, he really wants to just takea break and uh from live
playing, from from gigging, allthis, uh, from playing at home,
all this stuff, because he'sthat.
Disenfranchised with howdrumming's been for him.

(01:40:26):
Um, and of course I made it intothe Jacob School, but I chose
not to go because of expenses,because it was remote, so I
would have had to live oncampus, and I was mentally
unstable and probably wouldn'thave done very well living away
from home, if I'm completelyhonest.
And then the other thing was isthat something in me told me
that was not going to be a um acareer I could make.

Because here's the thing (01:40:50):
I never had a desire to be in a
touring band.
I've never had that desire.
I've never had because obviouslythat's where you're gonna make
your money, you know.
If you fight by some chance, andhonestly, I I know a few people
who are in bands that tour kindof regionally or even
nationally, that they still haveother jobs, you know what I

(01:41:11):
mean?
I mean, it's so fucking hard tomake a career out of this.
And I even have a friend uh whoalso who actually did get a
degree from the Jacobs School,also has a second job, you know
what I mean?
So it kind of hit me when Iapplied, and yeah, it was
amazing I got in because it'sit's it always switches between

(01:41:31):
it and Berkeley as the numberone to number two music school
in the country.
So that's a pretty bad accoladein itself.
But it is I can't take away thefact that that actually was the
right decision not to go,because that would have been a
shit ton of money, time, effort,stress, all this shit for
something that just wouldn'thave panned out.
And I can be realistic aboutthat.

(01:41:53):
And it took Paul a long time, Ithink, to get to that point.
Um and that was the wise thing.
And I can tell you, I tellpretty much all young musicians,
including my my nephew, who's anincredible piano player, is I'm
like, hey, uh, I wouldn't pursuea music degree.
Uh for one thing, you don't needa music degree to uh be a be a

(01:42:15):
world renowned, whatever.
If that's your goal, you don'tneed a degree to do it.
Um getting a degree fromBerkeley or any other shit is
not going to make you on a worldstage.
Um, it's just not.
Um you you have to be in theright place, right time, effort,
luck, connections, you know,networking, all this shit.
I mean, a billion things have tocome together for that to be

(01:42:37):
your sole income.
But my thing was I wanted tosimply play locally, especially
jazz and fusion, and I did thatfor a while.
Um, one of my uh professors atIEPY, actually, I played in his
jazz band for a while at themousetrap and at the chatterbox.
So those are that's what Iwanted to do.
But that all plays into I wasaware that the way I want to

(01:42:58):
pursue drumming was not going tobe lucrative for me to make a
career out of it.
And the fact that I was goodenough to make it into the
Jacobs School was enough for me.
Because at least I knew I was Iwas a great player, and that was
enough for me.
But ultimately, there is awisdom that comes with, hey, you
know, you gotta know kind ofyour path.

(01:43:22):
And again, that goes back to theband itself, is like playing
into how young we were, thinkingwe could make something of that,
or that that took priority overthe friendships, over all of
that was just fucking you know,it fucking retarded.
I mean, so stupid, and thatdisbanded everything.

(01:43:44):
You lost contact with Brian andPaul, Brian and Paul lost
contact with you, you know, youand I weren't as close as we
were.
Yeah, that was so stupid.
And the fact is, we were not ona trajectory of being anything
beyond a simple, fun littlecover band.
And that's okay, is what I'msaying.
That's totally okay.

(01:44:04):
Totally.
100% okay.
And if we could have had thatmindset as fucking stupid kids,
I'm sorry, we were kids, collegeor not, we were fucking ignorant
kids, thinking we were gonna bethe next big Indianapolis
fucking cover band.
Give me a goddamn break.
Like, you know what I'm saying?
How stupid that sounds I lookback now and I'm like, God, I
was fuck we were fucking stupid.

SPEAKER_00 (01:44:26):
Maybe that's why I'm so hard on myself, you know.

SPEAKER_02 (01:44:29):
Well, and I I I wish the other I I can't imagine how
all the four of us couldn't behard on ourselves about that.
I sure am.
I mean, I look back and I thinkof how fucking stupid I was.
And I look at all of us, by theway.
I look at Paul, I look at Ryan,I look at you, and I'm like, you
guys were fucking stupid withme.
We were all dumb about it.
And it's just like, look whathappened.

(01:44:51):
We were so close, the four ofus, and the drama and stress and
ignorance and stupidity around afucking college bullshit cover
band disbanded the whole thing.
You see what I mean?

SPEAKER_00 (01:45:08):
Yeah, it yeah, it's it's fucking stupid.
If Paul doesn't want toreconnect, you know, I can
accept that.
Well, you have.
You have accepted it.
Yeah, yeah.
Well, for the listeners outthere.
Yeah.
I have accepted it.
Uh I'm not, I'm never, and I Iwon't and I never will speak ill

(01:45:28):
of the guy.
I won't.
I just won't do it.
That's just something.
If he doesn't want to reconnectwith me, I've made my peace with
it.
I'm okay with it.
I mean, that's it.
Is all I got to say about it.
I mean, I would love toreconnect with him, at least
just do a handshake, say, hey,we're good.
If that's the extent of it.

(01:45:48):
Officially it's over, we can allmove on.
No more grudges.
No more grudges.
And honestly, I feel I wouldn'tfeel like such a piece of shit.

SPEAKER_02 (01:46:00):
Well, and I I think honestly, that is what matters
to you is knowing that he'smoved on from it.
And honestly, I don't know,could you I guess you could
argue he has.
If he's not wanting to pursueeven the moments of trying to
reconcile just together on thatlevel, if he's not wanting to
pursue that, then maybe he hasmoved on.

(01:46:22):
I got I don't know if you couldargue that or if he doesn't want
to even acknowledge it, or maybehe hasn't moved on because he's
not willing to do that.
You know, I don't know how youwant to look at that.

SPEAKER_00 (01:46:29):
Well, I can feel and I felt his vibe the last time I
saw him in person that he justwanted nothing to do with
speaking or interacting.
And I'm like, okay, no, I'm notgonna force it.
And I didn't.

SPEAKER_02 (01:46:44):
And that's it.
I mean, again, that that doesshow your maturity as a person
and as a I'm not gonna force it.

SPEAKER_00 (01:46:52):
I mean, I I you can cut the tension with a knife.
And I'm like, man, he does he heis he does not want this.
I'm not gonna force it.

SPEAKER_02 (01:47:00):
I I have well, and you know what?
You know what?
You know who organized that?
It was this motherfucker righthere.
Because I and I'll take blamefor that.
I was trying to give you two theopportunity to be like, hey, and
because why?
I wanted to fix it.
I did.
And I know you want to reconciletoo, but you didn't you didn't

(01:47:21):
come up with that idea.

SPEAKER_00 (01:47:22):
No, but he was willing to still be there, so I
do have to give him props forthat.
I mean, he was willing to stillbe there, knowing I was gonna be
there.

SPEAKER_02 (01:47:30):
Well, and I think just maybe in the moment when he
saw you, and maybe some feelingscame rushing back, or you know,
maybe he just like he saw youand remembered the the the anger
he had and the frustration andthe hurt.
Maybe that just overcame whathis intentions were.
And as you know, you know, youcan mentally prepare for
something, get yourself builtup, get yourself psyched, and
all this shit, and then you'rein the world.

SPEAKER_04 (01:47:50):
That's exactly what I'm going on.

SPEAKER_02 (01:47:52):
Yeah, I know, I know that too.
I mean, I know you were like,I'm gonna I'm gonna make sure I
can pull him aside and have atwo to five minute conversation
about this.
And I felt that too.
It's like, but you know whatthat I overstepped again.
I inserted myself, which I'vebeen known to do a lot, and
honestly have caused some onesshoes that way.
Um, because again, I try to fixthings that I'm not capable of

(01:48:14):
fixing that I have no businesstrying to fix, and um, it ends
up kind of hurting everybody.
Now, that one I don't thinkreally hurt anybody, but I've
definitely interjected before insituations where it certainly
has.

SPEAKER_00 (01:48:27):
Um there is a point where you kind of alluded to the
earlier.
Um, you said you probablythought I was hurt by that.
I wasn't hurt, I wasdisappointed.
I was like, because I had just Iwas like mentally preparing
myself, like hey, I'm gonna pullinto the like you said, I'm
gonna pull into the side andhave a conversation, see where

(01:48:47):
it goes.
But then once it got there, Iwas like, fuck.

SPEAKER_02 (01:48:53):
Well, you just saw clearly you didn't want it, and
you you did accept that.
And what's interesting is uh ifyou remember, you know, at Max's
party, my son, you know, um youyou kind of you kind of left a
bit out of the blue.
I mean, you were just tired, youhad your son there and all that,
so you were tired.

SPEAKER_00 (01:49:11):
Oh, yeah, I was being honest.
I was being honest there, I wasjust tired of it.
I know you were ready to go.

SPEAKER_02 (01:49:15):
Yeah, but you know what I did is I projected that
you were mad at Paul, you werereally upset, you were hurt.
I projected that on you becausethat's how I felt.
And I'm so guilty of doing that.
Is like if I have a problem witha situation, I will project that
that person also feels that way,and the other thing I'm really
bad about is my insecurities.

(01:49:35):
I will hardcore project thatothers feel that way about me,
even though there's really noevidence to support that.
Um so that's another thing Ireally do have a lot of
struggles with doing um isprojecting how I think others
should feel and also how othersfeel about me.
Um that's a very insecurity kindof based thing.

SPEAKER_00 (01:49:55):
Um but I'm just important, you know, but the
most important thing that cameout of Max's birthday party is
that we were both able to bethere for you, Katie, and Max
for Max's birthday.

SPEAKER_02 (01:50:09):
So And that's pretty big.
I mean, you guys were able toput aside whatever whatever
feelings you had towards eachother, and I obviously there was
a lot of tension andawkwardness, but I never saw you
guys.
I mean, you kind of just ignoredeach other.
You know, it was just like theother person wasn't there.
And honestly, that's pretty damnbig of both of you, honestly.

(01:50:30):
Um, I can tell you if I was inthat situation, like I was with
somebody that let's say I wasyou in that situation, I was
going in expecting to have thisconversation with somebody and
they just ignored me or didn'twant any part of it, I would
have been really mad and I wouldhave I would have expressed
that.
I would have, no doubt about it.
I would have pulled them aside,or hell, if it was bad enough, I
would have done it foreverybody.

SPEAKER_00 (01:50:51):
Yeah, I was nice to him.
Like if we're walking kind ofnear the same direction and if I
happen to get in his way orsomething, I'd be like, hey,
sorry, excuse me, Paul.
You but I'd be like, or sorryabout that.
You'd be like, oh no, you'regood.
Little things like that.
But that that was the most thatwas the extent.

SPEAKER_02 (01:51:08):
And maybe, maybe that's the building blocks for
healing, or maybe maybe thatshows the acceptance both of you
have.
Because like I said, I wouldn'thave done that.
You know, if I was you, um, youknow, and expected uh, hey, I'm
gonna have this and all thisstuff, and make sure we have
this conversation and all that,and it didn't happen, I'd have
been livid, and it would havecame out somehow.

(01:51:29):
Um and, you know, just with abit of how unstable I am right
now, and I've had, you know, inthe past year, I've done some
not great things uh when I'vebeen quote unquote slighted,
even though it wasn't reallythat big a deal.
Um, you know the stories.
Um, you know, unfortunately,that is my response is to
attack.
And I'm not talking physicallynecessarily, although that's

(01:51:51):
been important, but it's just toattack out of protection rather
than taking a second.
So probably, you know, considerthat hey, I'm projecting that
they feel this way, or they'rehurting too, or they're trying
to process, you know, all thisstuff.
So it's all fucking complicated.
But man, it uh for me it alljust comes down to fucking
acceptance is is a big thing.

(01:52:13):
And like I said, you have come alot farther in that journey than
I have, because honestly, dude,I'm still at square one.
You know, I I can't I can't evenaccept my, you know, I had a
twin that was stillborn,Brandon.
Uh, I don't I don't think I'veever accepted that.
You know, I it goes that backthat far.
Um, you know, all this lack ofacceptance, honestly, is

(01:52:34):
probably what built to kind ofthe the fucking implosion I I
had I've had.
Um because it again, it's justnot accepting anything wrong or
that I disagree with or that Ifundamentally have problems
with, not accepting any of it.
And like I said, now that I'vehit, frankly, this purely

(01:52:55):
depressive state, and I don'thave the fight in me to be
aggressive or angry about it,maybe by default that will just
allow me to fucking accept it,you know.

SPEAKER_00 (01:53:06):
Uh maybe uh maybe that's that's what helped me.

SPEAKER_02 (01:53:10):
Um and that's well, that's exactly what I was going
to because you did that.
I mean, you I know you havestruggled with anger, you've had
incidents in the past, and youyou can share them or not, but
you've had some pre uh bouts ofanger as I have in the past.

SPEAKER_00 (01:53:27):
Um I've l I've lost a job because of my anger.
Yeah, you you have.

SPEAKER_02 (01:53:33):
Right.

SPEAKER_00 (01:53:34):
And grab someone by the throat, looking them up,
throw them up against a wall.
And uh customers happen to seeit, I got canned.

SPEAKER_02 (01:53:43):
Yeah, and which you should be for that.
I mean, and like I said, it'snot and again well I don't want
to go too please don't let me gotoo far down this rabbit hole
because I don't want to.
Like I don't want to say thisand then help me move on because
I will talk on this forever.
But there is a thing of for aman wanting to exert um strength

(01:54:05):
and even dominance and um youknow, kind of power.
You know, that is a thing a manwants to do, and I think often
it's because we're all so damnknocked down.
Uh, you know, we're not allowedto express sadness or or cry or
anything like that.
So the only thing, you know,what do men do?
We blow up.
You know, um, you know, thesuicide rates among men just

(01:54:27):
continue to go up and up and up.
Um, so either, you know, dosomething stupid to others,
usually through physicalviolence, or we um, you know,
kill ourselves.
And uh not justifying any of it,by the way.
It's just again, it's it's oneof those things that that that
is why.
Um so you know, I guess I thinkpart of it is you felt so

(01:54:53):
vulnerable and so so hurt and solost, I think.
That was anger was your route toexpression and to venting and to
awesomeness.
That is all you had.
And I mean you were one of themost angry people I knew, and I
I hope that's okay to say.

(01:55:14):
Um and honestly, and honestly,you're just like me, and you
still have it, and you know,Katie, my wife, who absolutely
adores you, um, probably weren'tany of my friends, actually,
definitely weren't any of myfriends, um, will say that you
have an extreme undercurrent ofanger to you, as I do.
Um, you're incredibly quiet,you're incredibly reserved, you

(01:55:37):
definitely have moments of greatlaughter and enjoyment that you
can visibly see.
You and I both very much have astrong undercurrent of anger.
And you have curbed yours a lotmore than I have.

SPEAKER_00 (01:55:52):
Because enable you channel it differently.

SPEAKER_02 (01:55:55):
Well, like what you mentioned to me before is that
you're able to channel itthrough leaning into your
anxiety.
Yeah.
And I think that's actually apretty neat approach, honestly,
to kind of lean into anothermental struggle in order to kind
of uh deter the more uhaggressive, maybe dangerous one,

(01:56:19):
if you can put it that way, um,from coming out.
I think that's actually, and Ithink you kind of did that a bit
subconsciously, right?
Yeah.
Yeah.
So, I mean, I I, on the otherhand, you know, when I get truly
heated, I have to take it outphysically.
So, you know, I got this fuckingBob punching bag in the basement
that I really I wanted it shapedlike a human.

(01:56:42):
You know, um, and it was waymore expensive than the than
just a punching bag.
But I had to have it shaped likea person because I wanted to
feel like I was punching aperson.
Uh, it wouldn't have been enoughto punch a bag.
And honestly, I come down herestill all the time, and I'll
wail on that thing five, ten,fifteen minutes, and it does
help.
Unfortunately, I don't have abig trouble struggle with

(01:57:04):
anxiety.
I can't lean into that approachto to um kind of dispersing the
anger.
You know, it is something I haveto physically express.

SPEAKER_00 (01:57:12):
Um, that's kind of why that's where it it changed
with me instead of takingthings, uh beating something up
or punching something.
Uh it's it'd turn into anxiety.
Like I can't sit still, I'mjittery, I gotta be I gotta move
around, do something.

SPEAKER_02 (01:57:32):
Well, when you get yourself out of the situation,
you know.

SPEAKER_00 (01:57:35):
Yeah, or I get myself out of the situation and
then I do.
Well, that's what I'm saying.

SPEAKER_02 (01:57:39):
That's exactly what I'm saying.
And unfortunately, you know, a abig thing with anger, as as I
mentioned many times, is beingaw trying to be aware of your
triggers and knowing ways out.
Or knowing ways of just notletting yourself get there to
begin with.
Because I mentioned many times,you know, um, that that is the

(01:58:00):
biggest key to coping withanger.
And by the way, obviously I'mnot incredibly successful at it,
but I can tell you that onething I've found that really
helps me now from even gettingto that point is when I go to
the store, when I go out inpublic, if I'm not with somebody
and it's just me, because I knowI can get triggered pretty hard,
and I know I lean towardsphysical violence, physical, you

(01:58:22):
know, um uh expression of angerright now.
I will wear my AirPods.
I wear them everywhere now, ifI'm just by myself, and that's
everywhere.
Gas station, if I get out of thecar to pump gas, I put them in.
Uh, go to Walmart, go to arestaurant, and I eat by myself,
always in.
And I have usually prettyjovial, kind of relaxing or

(01:58:43):
happy music on, like fuckingshabozy, or yeah, well, not all
of shabozy because he's got somedepressing shit too, but like,
you know, like a bar song orthat kind of vibe, tipsy, you
know, those kinds of vibes, andthey do because there's been
times, you know, I deal with uhuh a person in public or like a
cashier that's kind of being adick, or you know, things that
probably most people could justlike, you know, okay, he's an

(01:59:06):
ass, or like maybe fight alittle bit with him verbally and
fuck off, you know, but not me.
So that's a that is a copingmechanism that I've developed
probably in the last two tothree months that actually I
would argue has kept me fromgetting not necessarily
physically violent, but reallyangry in public.
And I have to say that when Iget to that level, I tank.

(01:59:27):
Like I'm done for the day.
There is no recovery from it forthe rest of the day, and even
days after, um, I will havethat, and it's not an
undercurrent of anger at thatpoint.
It's ready to explode if thenext thing remotely ticks me.
Um, you know, it's not somethingthat dissipates, it remains.
And that's one coping mechanismI've kind of found.

(01:59:50):
And the other thing is if I getpretty heated while I'm out, I
get home, first thing I do iscome down here and beat the shit
out of Bob.
You know, so that's my copingthing.
And I guess regardless, if youare coping, then you are
succeeding in, you know, gettingyou know, maintaining that vice
or whatever you want to call it.

SPEAKER_00 (02:00:10):
But uh and I also have my son to think about too.
I don't want him seeing thatside of me, and he just see you
just see the calm guff that'sgonna handle situations.
Properly, and I don't want thatpassed down to him, to him
thinking that's appropriatebehavior.

SPEAKER_02 (02:00:33):
I'm almost sad you mentioned it.
I'm glad you did.
Legit.
Because one thing I have so muchguilt about already is when I
get heated like that in front ofMax.
I've never done anything to shto express physical violence in
front of him.
Right.
But he definitely feels theundercurrent of anger.
I can tell he does.
And I can definitely tell youthat I I've never yelled at

(02:00:54):
anybody in front of him.
Like at anybody, like Katie,Dad, anybody.
That's not happened.
But boy, have I yelled aboutthings.
I've yelled at the situation,not, you know, at anybody
personally.
But I get so heated, and I'm notjustifying it, it's wrong.
But I have so much guilt abouteven um exposing him to that at

(02:01:20):
at one year old.
Um I'm working on it.
I am.
I'm failing.
Um, and that's something I Idefinitely haven't mentioned on
the show, is something I Ireally am struggling with, and
I'm glad you brought that up,you know, because it is
something that's really hard forme right now, is kind of being
careful a bit of what he sees ofthose sides of things.

(02:01:42):
Um and uh that that's a hard onefor me, you know.

SPEAKER_00 (02:01:47):
Yeah, because you know, as kids get older, I mean
their little brains are sponges,they see everything, they hear
everything, they'll pick up allbehavior patterns.

SPEAKER_02 (02:01:57):
They will, and and it I think it starts at his age.
And the good thing is, I mean, Iknow he feels so loved by me,
and he, you know, he's I'm oneof his favorite people, and
there is a point where it goesfrom he knows I'm being
protective to I'm being justaggressive and angry.
There is a difference, and it'sit's you have to you have to

(02:02:20):
exemplify that difference, Ithink.
And as you said, their theirminds are sponges even at that
age, and I admittedly, I don'tthink he's I don't think he's
been exposed to that side a lot.
Um and I I I'm continuing toknow when to get away to to go
manage that on my own.
And I will continue to work onthat because again, that's just

(02:02:42):
not something he needs to beexposed to.
What I will protect him from is,you know, um certain people who
are aggressive towards him oragainst somebody that that they
love.
Um there's a family member onKatie's side that is not very
kind to certain members of theother, uh, certain other members
of that side of the family, andI will not have him around that.

(02:03:04):
Um I just won't.
Um so you know, I can at leasttake solace, and I've never
shown aggression towards anybodyin front of him.
Aggressions at situations, butnot to somebody.
And I think that's that's athat's a good distinction.
But still, you know, still needto try to hide him from that
while I try to figure my shitout.

(02:03:26):
Um, but I will say that he hasabsolutely been one of the, if
not the most calming source tome.
Um, if I if there's ever there'sbeen a lot of times I haven't
felt loved, I haven't felt, andthis is nobody's putting this on
me.
This is how I feel.
I haven't felt love, I felt likea failure, I felt like a piece

(02:03:47):
of shit.
As you know, I there's uh oftendays I'm trying to find reasons
not to fucking off myself.
It's pretty common for me rightnow.
And a lot of days it's a fuckingstruggle.
But I can tell you, when thatboy smiles at me or comes to me
and wants me to pick him up orlaughs at me, it it's pretty
quick that those feelingsdissipate.
Or at least it's like maybethose maybe those feelings are

(02:04:09):
still there, but it's like, youknow what, he makes it worth all
the suffering, you know.
Um because I'm a big advocatethat you know kids didn't ask to
be here.
They didn't.
We didn't ask to be here,frankly.
Uh, but kids did not ask to behere.
So especially if you choose tobring them into this world, um,
you need to take accountabilityfor that and show them what they

(02:04:31):
deserve as human beings, asyoung, developing human beings.
Um I I'm very good about that.
I mean, you've seen me uh withMax, and I've seen you with your
son.
Um, they love us to death, andyou are certainly your son's
rock.
Um, and I'm definitely a primaryto Max.
So there there's there's a lotthat goes with that, and a lot

(02:04:53):
of importance.
Um, that's a big deal.

SPEAKER_00 (02:04:57):
And I can't the biggest struggle with that, you
just you said it perfectly, youknow, about our children and how
they can help us lift us out ofthat funk.
It's even harder when you don'tget to see them every day.

SPEAKER_02 (02:05:13):
Right, right.
Because you're not constantlyreminded by their their presence
of that.
Yeah, that's hard.
That's hard.

SPEAKER_00 (02:05:24):
But uh advise any listeners out there, don't don't
take it for granted if you getto see your children every day.

SPEAKER_03 (02:05:34):
Yeah.
Don't take that for granted.

SPEAKER_02 (02:05:37):
You're right.
You're right.
And one thing I can't fuckingstand that I just feel like I'm
seeing more and more, and youmight be able to test this too,
is just parents in publicfucking yelling at their kids,
calling them names, all thisshit.
I'm like, hey, what did youexpect from a child?

(02:05:57):
Like, what did you expect?
Like, we all see kids in public,we all know they have their
tantrums and their disobedienceand their you know defiance and
all this shit.
But it's never okay to reactthat way.
Ever.
I don't care.
Like, I can't fucking standthat.
It's like, if this is how you'regoing to treat another human

(02:06:19):
being, let's be real.
Kids are an absolute financialburden, and it's not getting any
cheaper.
Um, hell, they've they've evenuh cut the amount of tax
benefits we get from them.
See, and not what I'm saying islike to take on even the
financial burden of a child umand choose that, you know,

(02:06:39):
there's I'm not gonna get intothe other situations around
that.
But if you choose to have achild and you and you
everybody's aware of thefinancial burden of the time, of
the you know uh love and energyand and that deprives you of a
lot of things that you did inyour life and the sacrifices and
all that.
If you if you choose to bring uha person into this world, you

(02:07:03):
can't take that shit out onthem.

SPEAKER_03 (02:07:06):
You know, I mean I can't fucking stand that.

SPEAKER_00 (02:07:10):
Things I quickly picked up on and had to learn.
Um, like you said, if if kidsare out there having a super
tantrum, you're out in public.
Uh your best piece of advice istake them out to the car, get
away from the public, go into alittle private setting, have a
chat with them.
If that don't work, then youneed to leave.

(02:07:33):
Because you don't need to betaking doing all that in public,
and for one, you're making anass of yourself.
Two, you're doing nothing butharm to the child.
Well, you're making an ass ofyourself.
You're making an ass ofyourself.
I I I I've I've never understoodwhy people want to scream, yell,

(02:07:56):
call names, curse at theirchildren out in public and out
loud for everyone to hear.
Like, no.

SPEAKER_02 (02:08:04):
I certainly don't get it.
I I really don't.

SPEAKER_00 (02:08:07):
I I don't agree with it at all.

SPEAKER_02 (02:08:09):
Um, I just don't like the fucking vibe of
treating your kids like anuisance.

SPEAKER_00 (02:08:16):
Oh, I've seen I've seen uh other parents spank
their children out in public.

SPEAKER_02 (02:08:20):
Yeah, I don't like that either.

SPEAKER_00 (02:08:22):
I'm like, hell no.
Like I'm not saying anythingabout not spanking.
I mean I'm I'm pro that, butdoing out in public, no, that
needs to be in a privatesetting.

SPEAKER_02 (02:08:34):
Yeah, I mean you just because the benefit is that
we're yeah, for one, it doesnothing, it doesn't do any good.

SPEAKER_00 (02:08:42):
You're gonna have people out there that may see
this happen in public and wantto report you to GPS BCS for
child abuse.
I know for a fact that'shappened before with someone.

SPEAKER_02 (02:08:56):
Well, and the fact is, I mean, anything is
considered abuse now, period,you know.
So we've gotten too protective.
I mean, not there's a limit, youknow what I'm saying?
Like, yeah, not everything is isyou know harmful.
Um but that's a whole notherthing.
In fact, you and I are gonna getdo an episode about that at some
point about some of that.

(02:09:17):
But um either way, um yeah, Iguess I don't know really where
else to go with all this, uh,unless you got something you
want to share, buddy.

SPEAKER_00 (02:09:30):
Yeah, I think it's pretty I think it's uh wrapped
up in a nutshell.
I think that's wrapped up.

SPEAKER_02 (02:09:36):
That's a wrap.

SPEAKER_03 (02:09:37):
That's a wrap.

SPEAKER_00 (02:09:38):
We're about to venture into part three.

SPEAKER_02 (02:09:42):
Part three, guys.
That's gonna be the the reallybig one.
Yeah, I've got it, uh you know,you and I have talked about what
part three will be, so yeah.
We we've even touched on some ofthat in this episode.
So anyway, um I know you gottaget stay tuned for more.
Um I know you gotta get up earlyand go fishing.

(02:10:05):
So uh I will let you go for now,but dude, another great episode.
A lot of cool, a lot of awesomeinsights and depth came out of
it.
Uh always can count on you forthat.

SPEAKER_00 (02:10:16):
So I'm also not I'm not sick this time around
either.

SPEAKER_02 (02:10:20):
I know.
I know you're not doped up on uhNyQuil during the day.
Um that's what happens.

SPEAKER_00 (02:10:28):
Um, I took nighttime NyQuil right before we pressed
record on the first episode.
Yeah, I didn't mean to do that.

SPEAKER_03 (02:10:37):
Not only were you sick, you took you took the day.

SPEAKER_00 (02:10:40):
I I meant to take the day quill, but I took the
night quill before we pressedrecord.

SPEAKER_02 (02:10:47):
I know they put the fucking the Dayquill in the blue
bottle and the NyQuil in the inthe orange bottle, and you can't
help that.
That was a factory error, myfriend.

SPEAKER_00 (02:10:56):
Um and uh running uh borderline 102 degree fever
during that whole episode.
You wrote what's funny is youreally couldn't tell.
Like Oh man, I was sicker than adog.
You're pretty sharp.

SPEAKER_02 (02:11:10):
You're pretty sharp.
Well, anyway, my friend, uhgreat to have you again, and
we'll look forward to partthree.
Probably get that recordedfairly, fairly soon.
Um, anyway, love you dearly.
Hope that's not gay to say infront of all these people.

SPEAKER_04 (02:11:23):
Love you too.

SPEAKER_02 (02:11:24):
Uh uh chicken such asshole.

SPEAKER_00 (02:11:28):
Chicken such asshole.

SPEAKER_02 (02:11:31):
But uh clear I can't remember what Randy says during
that.

SPEAKER_04 (02:11:42):
There are cameras in here?
Yeah, it's Mirror's marriage.

SPEAKER_02 (02:11:46):
Um anyway.

SPEAKER_04 (02:11:48):
Sharon the Bat Dad.

SPEAKER_03 (02:11:54):
Sharon.

SPEAKER_02 (02:11:55):
The best cat.
Oh my god.
That's another one I could quoteall day long.
Anyway, um trying to think of aSpongebob quote to end this on.
Um oh I know.
Did you set it to wombo?

SPEAKER_04 (02:12:16):
Yeah, I was gonna say, make sure you turn set this
to wombo.
Make sure you set the make sureyou set this to wombo when you
listen to it, you know.
You wombo.
He wombo, he she, he she wombo.
Alright, my friend.

SPEAKER_02 (02:12:36):
Well, you you go get some sleep.
Um, and we will we will do partpart three uh in the near
future.

SPEAKER_00 (02:12:46):
Alright, my friend.
Sounds good to me.

SPEAKER_02 (02:12:48):
Alright, buddy.
Well, thanks for joining us.
This is Bottom Huey, aka Beatthe Mental Health Out of It with
the Defective Schizo Effective.
We're uh this is our secondinterview, my second interview,
with the Guffinator, aka Guff,or Josh Guffy.
So um, thanks for joining us.

(02:13:08):
And Guff, where can they findyou?

SPEAKER_00 (02:13:11):
Uh you can find me on TikTok.
Uh have my initials J-A-G and myson's initials, K-G-G.
So J A G K G G.
I think is I think that's all Igot.
7659, maybe?
On TikTok.
I think it's on Instagram.
Just find my name on Facebook.

(02:13:32):
Uh I'm on the struggle bus onDiscord if you guys want to join
that and join the discussion.

SPEAKER_02 (02:13:38):
Look at you fucking dropping the struggle.
I forgot about the struggle bus.

SPEAKER_00 (02:13:44):
Hey, we're all on the struggle bus, and we're
trying to get more people on itwith us.

SPEAKER_02 (02:13:49):
Yeah, making more bus stops.
Loading up the loading up thecrazies.
Alright, my friend.
Well, I will let you go.
Um, we're gonna end this episodeon a bit of a different tagline,
which I shared earlier, which isLaughter is the best medication.
So let's take our fuckingfucking pills.

(02:14:10):
Bitch.
Alright.
Thanks for listening, and staytuned for more.

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Friendship, Accountability & Personal Growth | Josh “Guff” Guffey

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.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}Friendship, Accountability & Personal Growth | Josh “Guff” Guffey