Safer Schools, Empathy & Culture Change | Mike & Jeff, Pt. 2

School culture can either protect kids — or quietly break them.

In Part 2 with Mike and Jeff, Nicholas Wichman (“The DEFECTIVE Schizoaffective”) and co-host Tony Medeiros (“IndyPocket”) go deeper on what it actually takes to build safer, more supportive schools. This isn’t vague “be kinder” talk. It’s a real conversation about empathy, respect, accountability, and culture change — the stuff that prevents harm before it becomes crisis.

We dig into what adults miss when they only react after incidents happen, why some systems unintentionally reward bullying behavior, and what practical changes improve student safety, mental health, and belonging. If you’re a parent, educator, student, or someone who still carries the scars of school, this episode is for you.

In this episode, we talk about:

• Why school culture matters as much as policies and punishment
• Empathy and respect as skills that can be modeled and taught
• The difference between “rules” and real safety
• Accountability systems that don’t just scapegoat kids
• How adults can spot problems earlier instead of reacting late
• What supportive schools do differently (and why it works)
• How mental health, trauma, and home stress show up in behavior
• Creating communities where kids can learn without fear

If school was traumatic for you, or you’re trying to protect your kid from bullying, chaos, or a toxic school culture, join our Discord, “The Struggle Bus” — tell us what’s happening and we’ll help you think through options, boundaries, and realistic next steps. (link below)

Beat The Mental Health Out Of It! (AKA “BTMHOOI!”) is a candid mental health podcast rooted in lived experience: schizoaffective disorder, schizophrenia spectrum psychosis, BPD, PTSD, trauma recovery, coping skills, and dark humor that helps make serious mental illness more understandable and human.

Hosted by Nicholas Wichman (“The DEFECTIVE Schizoaffective”) with frequent co-host Tony Medeiros (“IndyPocket”), we cover psych wards, psychiatric medication, disability, religious trauma, good therapy, bad therapy, and practical real-world coping — plus the societal and relationship issues that shape mental health every day. The goal isn’t just “fighting stigma.” It’s education, clarity, and honest conversation.

We interview everyone from everyday people to public figures, clinicians, and professionals, because mental health struggles don’t care who you are. If you’re willing to share your story or expertise, we aim to offer a safe, judgment-free space where you can speak openly — and still have some fun while doing it.

New episodes drop every other Monday at 6am EDT.

Want community and support? Join our Discord, “The Struggle Bus”: https://discord.gg/emFXKuWKNA

All links (TikTok, YouTube, Streaming, etc.): https://linktr.ee/BTMHOOI

Podcast cover art by Ryan Manning

Episode Transcript

SPEAKER_04 (00:22):
So we were talking about accountability, right?
Yeah.
And and you brought up the ideaof, oh, well, you're not the
only one going through it.
Like that's a total like Yeah,you don't everyone's doing this.
So, you know, takeaccountability for your own
pieces.

SPEAKER_02 (00:39):
There's a piece that also is like too, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 (00:40):
Where where do you feel like schools?
Because we also mentionedearlier that if it happens off
of school grounds, okay, but thesituation started on school
grounds.
Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 (00:54):
Right.

SPEAKER_04 (00:54):
Where I don't know that we're gonna come up with
answers necessarily, but if Ifeel like I know where you're
going.

SPEAKER_02 (01:00):
Well, yeah, then just get me there because I'm
like, so at what point in timedo schools have a responsibility
to intervene?

SPEAKER_04 (01:08):
We put the accountability on the supposed
protectors of the educators,protectors of these kids.
How do we make it better for thekids?
Because this is the thing.
My my my son is 17.
He's kind of moved through allof that, and I've seen the
situation get worse around him.

(01:28):
And luckily, you know, he'spretty resilient and has kind of
moved beyond a lot of that.
Your kid, on the other hand,Nick, at you know, at the very
in the right amounts to actuallyhave a positive effect, to

(01:51):
educate not only the kid, butthe therapists, the teachers,
the educators, administrators,and in the home to create that
environment, how societally dowe get the synergy of it?
Yeah, how do we get that messageout and where does the
accountability lie so we canpush it forward?

(02:14):
Because ultimately, about this,this whole thing for the podcast
is about making communitiesbetter.
Absolutely.
Making things better for thehuman element.

SPEAKER_02 (02:24):
I think it's gonna take a group of people to change
the dominant thought process ofhumans.
It's gonna take incrementalchange, and it's gonna take
people being willing to go.
It's okay to fuck up.
It's okay to mess up, and it'sokay to say, okay, yes, I have
responsibility in this.
The dominant thought process foreveryone that I've met in most

(02:48):
cases is push the responsibilityas far away from me as possible.
So that's beyond even education.
That goes beyond even education,but it's definitely present in
education.
For sure.
And so I've met, we're talkingabout the forest.
I've met trees, I've metindividuals who, whether it be

(03:08):
they be principals, they be viceprincipals, they be teachers,
they be therapists, they bewhatever role that they are in
in a child's life, who've beenbrave enough to step up and go,
either this is something thatI'm responsible for, this is
something that I did that eithercaused more of a difficulty and

(03:29):
I need to change it and dosomething different, or this is
something that I personally canand not change on because of the
role that I'm in this person'slife.
I can through effort, and again,that's that piece that a lot of
things fall on.
If it makes me do more, I don'twant to do it.

(03:50):
Yeah.
So we're also tired.
Oh, yeah.
Just the day life is exhaustingfor everybody.
So, and the number of times I'vehad conversations with
principals, with teachers, withparaprofessionals, with IAs,
with whoever, to go, I just hadone on Friday.

(04:10):
I stepped in because there was akid who uh was having an issue,
and I was trying to like talk tohim or you know, talk to the
professional that was dealingwith him at that point in time.
And that situation got resolved.
There was other things going onat the end of the day, and this
paraprofessional goes looks atme and goes, This is cannot be
my job.
Like this, this, what ishappening right now cannot be

(04:31):
part of my job.
And I was like, that's thatother duties as a sign piece
where that, you know, your jobdescription is here, the other
duties as a sign goes here.
Right.
Those 15 different pages of newthings.
Right.
Because when you're looking atit from a standpoint of I'm in a

(04:52):
role, and I get in trouble a lotof times for this because I step
out of bounds to help insomething that's not my job.
I'm a lane changer too.
So I get it.
And I am working especially hardon that right now because I'm
used to being the person who, ifone of the kids that I'm
assigned to, or that is in mypurview and in my, you know,

(05:13):
sphere of influence, ifsomething goes wrong, it's my
job to step in and doeverything, whether it's
behavior, whether it's mentalhealth, whether it's discipline,
which has been a spot where it'sbeen hard for me to maintain
good relationships with a lot ofmy kids because it gets blurred.
Right.
Because I'm the person who I'vegot your back, I'm on your side,

(05:37):
then you have I'm helping youout.
But when you mess up, then I'malso the person who's calling
you out for it.
Or at times with my moreaggressive kids and other roles,
I'm the person who's having toput you in a hold because you're
hurting yourself or you'rehurting somebody else.
Right.
That's why the that's why thedoctors don't give the shot that
the doctors you don't associate.

(05:59):
But I don't have all the timethe luxury of that.
Right.
And so then I'm constantlyrepairing situations with a
person who's already on edgebecause of past relationships or
lack thereof that they've hadwith people that care that
leave, or people that care thatdo things that are hurting them

(06:21):
at the same time.
So I'm I'm date you with that.
Yeah.
And so it makes it hard.
And I'm the same person, like wewere talking about earlier.
I I couldn't do it from a fromyour heart perspective.
Like I was causing myself somehealth issues.
I've had concussions, I'vethankfully nothing broken, but
I've been, you know, I've gottenall kinds of injuries, all kinds

(06:42):
of stuff as a result.
And now that I'm 45, it'sharder.
It's a lot harder to do it now.
I'm not 20.
I can't do holds as much, or Ican't do, you know.
I sat one of my jobs because itwas a I was trying to enact
change in a behavior.
I sat across from a kid whosmacked me in the face for two
hours straight.
Because this kid, again, talkingabout you do what works.

(07:07):
This kid, every time I say Iwant something, I say I want it,
I throw a fit, I hit people, Ibreak things.
I was like, today, that's notme.
I'm not doing that with youtoday.
I am the immovable.
So I sat with him and tried mybest to not respond and got
smacked in the face for twohours.

(07:27):
And I was in my 20s.
I was like probably 26 at thispoint in time.
Can't do that now.
There's no way I would be ableto do that now.
But, you know, it's it's aculture shift.
It's a I I'm pulling back fromsomething that I've always done,
but it's effort where effortneeds to be placed.
And so I think, you know,somebody stepping up and saying,

(07:48):
this is something I can do, andyou get pockets, you get little
individual examples of this, butit's but as a general rule, as a
general expectation, it's notthere because you have school
districts, you haveadministration, you have school
boards, you have all of thesethings that say the big focus is

(08:11):
testing.
Right.
The big focus is this.
So all of this stuff, behavior,all of these things, if it's
something we can't deal with,let's find a place to put them.
So it's you're findingalternative schools.
You're finding life skillsclassrooms for kids that don't
want to do things.
You're finding all of thesethings to hide and sweep the

(08:33):
problem away rather than dealwith it.
Right.

SPEAKER_03 (08:36):
Well, it's interesting is oddly enough, I
ran into my old history teacherfrom eighth grade the other
weekend, and you know, he's he'sretired and all this stuff.
And I know the school I went to,and a lot of my nieces and
nephews are in, and Max will endup going to.
You know, obviously a lot ofthese schools have down, gone
downhill with their educationand their systems and
everything.
And you know, he'd been there 35years, so he'd seen the growth.

(08:58):
He retired like five years ago,so or the decline, I mean.
So what what I asked him is, youknow, what changed?
You know, I was really curious,and he talked about how the last
several years he was there, andthis goes right along with what
you're saying, is that he wasput in respon with
responsibilities that heactually didn't have the power
to enforce.
Absolutely.
So, you know, there would bekids who just didn't do their

(09:21):
homework, didn't do all thisstuff, you know, didn't
contribute to their owneducation, and he did not have
the power to enforce anything toget them to do that.
So what would happen is, youknow, the kid would fail and all
this stuff.
And as you mentioned, it allcomes down to passing because if
one child fails, they get a shitton of funding cut.
Everything comes down to that.

(09:42):
So, you know, basicallyEspecially since COVID.
Yeah, and he would get heldaccountable for a student, you
know, failing his class.
So it got to a point where, youknow, he he made the comment
that you'd have to be pretty offyour rocker to, and this is as a
kid, to not be an A-B studentthese days.
Yep.

(10:03):
Because they make it so easy.
I talked to my nephew, he's anincredibly bright kid.
He's the same age as as Tony'sson, and he's in AP classes, and
they're not challenging to him.
My son feels the same way.
And it's just I remember I wasin advanced classes when I was,
and they were challenging me.
They made you think the criticalthinking is a lot of what's gone
down.

(10:23):
Yes, is what I understand.
Yeah, I I agree with that.
Is that a lot of the criticalthinking in classrooms has just
gone.
Everything's just kind of laidout for you.

SPEAKER_02 (10:32):
Well, because even in AP classes, because my son's
in a lot of them as well.
And, you know, he struggles withimposter syndrome as well.
He's like, I don't know what I'mdoing.
I suck at this.
And I'm like, dude, like yousaid, statistically, that's not
correct.
Like, you know, but I think ingeneral education, we're
teaching to I read, I learn.

(10:53):
Right.
For me, it was I step, you know.
So we're teaching to a test.
We're teaching so the kid isprepared to take a standardized
test because the standardizedtest is by is what we judge
success or failure of a schoolby.
Right.
A P classes are teaching to anAP test.
Right.
Because, you know, I took APstatistics when I was a senior.

(11:16):
It was one of the first yearsI'm that freaking old.
One of the first years theyactually offered the AP test for
the class.
The class, I got an A.
The test.

SPEAKER_03 (11:26):
The test, I got a two.
Yeah.
And I'm like, what do you think?
I mean, I have my own opinionsabout that, but what do you
think?
Where's the disconnect there?

SPEAKER_02 (11:34):
Where's the I think obviously anything that we're
doing, anything in life, we needto have a result.
Like you need to have a result.
You're you have to be movingforward towards something.
Right.
But I think whether it be mentalhealth, whether it be education,
whether it be work performance,whatever it is, we are so
focused on what you are doing.

(11:58):
Justify what you're doing,right?
Justify the actions that you'retaking and show me something
that is beneficial to my bottomline, whether that be corporate
profits, whether that be schoolperformance, whether that be
this, that we are taking away,like you said, the critical

(12:20):
thinking piece of it.
We're taking away theindividuality from it.
We are trying to make everysingle student into the same
student.
Right, exactly.
Yeah.
And the problem is that's not athing.
Like you, this kid over here is,you know, I spent a little time
in education and in my collegeyears.

(12:42):
So this is a bodily kinestheticlearner.
This is a visual learner.
This is an auditory learner.
This is a experiential learner.
Right.
So we have all of thesedifferent learning styles.
We have all of these differentcommunication and
self-expression styles.
And we're like, no, you have todo this.
Right.
You have to say it.

SPEAKER_03 (13:02):
So you can't even provide children with the
strengths that they have fortheir to achieve their
potential.
Right.

SPEAKER_02 (13:09):
My one of my son's biggest frustrations a couple of
months ago, and I think he'sthankfully worked through it,
but one of my son's biggestfrustrations is he's currently
valedictorian.
Okay.
Like at the school he goes to,and was absolutely terrified as
an introvert to have to give aspeech.
Like, yeah, that's a thing thathe was like, I can't get past

(13:32):
this.
I don't want to give a speech tothe point where I'm like, dude,
he's like, at this point intime, you know, the only thing I
could do to not be is to tank myclasses.
And I'm like, no, like that's A,that's not you.
Yeah.
Like that's not yourpersonality.
Right.
You want to be, you, you are,this is focused.
And it's not externally, like,it's it's a complete internal

(13:53):
motivation for this kid.

SPEAKER_05 (13:54):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 (13:54):
Like I did not crack the whip.
No, I was 130th in my class.
Yeah.
It was not even close to being avaledictorian.
Like, that is not a thing that Iexpect any of my kids to do.
I expect you to do your best.
Right.
Do what is your best ineverything.
If you give your effort, that'sall I care about.
Right.
Um, so I'm going like, hey,because he wants to go into

(14:16):
computer science and marketingand that kind of stuff, like
graphic design and those kindsof things.
So I'm like, dude, do a video.
Like, make a video, write yourspeech, say your speech over a
video.
Like, put graphics, put, youknow, like I'm thinking, make it
a whole product.
Yeah, exactly.
Make it a whole production.
Talk to your professors, talk toyour, you know, your teacher,

(14:37):
your administrator, whoever isin responsible for this, and
say, hey, can I make a videorather than have to stand up and
do a speech?
The thought of, well, that's notokay.
That's not how it's done.
That's not what's supposed to bedone.
Right.
Like he couldn't even get pastthat.
No, that's not how it's done.
I have to give a speech.
That's really sad.

SPEAKER_01 (14:57):
And not that he thought that, but that's really
sad that that's so ingrained.

SPEAKER_02 (15:02):
Yeah.
And it's, and I would, I wouldtake, again, he's a very
concrete thinker as well forwhat that, you know, what that
implies.
I get that.
Um, you know, he and I love himto death.
He's one of the he is truly thething.
Him and my other son are trulythe thing that I want to be
judged by when I grow whereverwe go, because they are both

(15:26):
better than I ever was as astudent.
And I want them to be better,and they have the potential to
be better than I ever will as aperson.
But that I think going throughyears of, you know, we know why
school was created.
It's to teach people or get kidsprepared to work.

(15:48):
Not why there's aneight-year-old no, not bullying.
No.
Sorry, no, because that's why westill have bullies in corporate
America.
The weed at work, you know.
Survival of the fittest.
Exactly.
It's actually, yeah.
Like joking or not, like Iactually serious.

SPEAKER_03 (16:02):
It's social Darwinism.
It is.

SPEAKER_02 (16:04):
It's a function of social Darwinism.
Yeah.
Um, you know, but that's the weare preparing kids to be
automatons to fit into the cogof a machine that we have
created and continue to haveproblems.

SPEAKER_03 (16:20):
Is continuing to malfunction more and more that
the the cogs were attempting tocreate.
Right.

SPEAKER_02 (16:26):
If that's the case, all we need to do is just work
harder.
Because I know that's sarcasm.
Yeah, no, absolutely.
No, absolutely it's sarcasmic.
But that but that's the that'sthe thing.
We don't look for what do wechange to make it work better.
Right.
We're obviously just not tryinghard enough in the thing that

(16:46):
we've always done.
Right.
We just need to work harder atit.
And it eventually it's gonnawork.
Yes, it's Einstein.
Right.
If you do the same thing everytime, expecting different
results, that is insanity.
It is.
That's the definition ofinsanity.
Doing the same thing over andover again, expecting different

(17:07):
results.
Fucking he knows.
He's dead.

SPEAKER_01 (17:10):
What does it matter?
But to piggyback off of that,and going back to Tony's point
about like what what will movethat needle in a better
direction?
I don't have an answer.
I'm not a guru.
I'm not sitting at the top of amountain that come to me, Tony,
come, come let me impart wisdom.
But have to be fair.
Those things will be about tosay, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 (17:30):
Absolutely.
We'd have those to be fair withthe beard and the and the shaved
head.

SPEAKER_01 (17:36):
But like to be serious about it, like it will
take incremental change, likeyou said, but it will also take
a resculpting of what we valueas a society.
Absolutely.
I I I know like I'm not gonnaget super political with it, so
I'm just gonna keep it veryvague and broad.
Um the the people I interactwith most often are very caring,

(17:58):
generous, selfless people.
Those are the people I surroundmyself with.
Those are the people I callfriends and family.
Nick, I know I just met you, butif if you're friends with Tony,
that was my same exact thought.
I I lump you in automaticallywith that.
Um and I think there's amisconception that if you're not
in my immediate in-group, youdon't care about me.

SPEAKER_04 (18:21):
And and for some and to a certain, at least
societally, you don't matter.
Exactly.

SPEAKER_01 (18:27):
Yeah.
And and that is toxic to ahealthy society because what is
the point of us living togetherin these big groups?
Right.
What, 370 million of us in thiscountry?
What what is the point if yourbest interest is not also my
best interest?
What are we actually rallyingaround?

(18:49):
Right.
The goal was not the same forevery person.
Exactly.
And and to a certain extent,that's fine.
If you want to go to school, doyour best, be a doctor, I don't
care.
That's fine.
Right.
If you want to go get your GEDand then go work in a factory
for the rest of your life, youcan do that.
That's fine.
But like we we have to, as asociety, remember it's either

(19:11):
all of us or we're just going tocontinue to have problems like
this.
It's going to continue to erode.
The machine will continue to eatus alive and deteriorate because
the bottom line, like you guyswere saying earlier, the bottom
line is money.
Wherever we go, it's money.
So parents will blame schools.
Schools will blame parents.
Blame parents.

(19:31):
Everybody will blame thegovernment.
The government will blame us.
Like it's this self-perpetuatingcycle, and people have to
realize that the machine isrunning.
We can just stop the machine fora little bit and figure out what
the fuck we're doing.

SPEAKER_03 (19:45):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 (19:46):
And re reroute to a better direction.
That's generally the best way tofix anything.
Right.
And people, and I'm speakinggenerally, and I could be very
wrong.
I think a lot of people arescared to do that because they
don't know what that means.
They don't know what that lookslike.

SPEAKER_03 (20:01):
There's change again.

SPEAKER_01 (20:02):
Even if it's just a pause and not like shifting to
anything dramatic.
And nothing's critical change.
And it's shift.
No, we're not capable of that.

SPEAKER_03 (20:10):
And that's not what I'm saying.
Right.
That's what I'm saying.
No matter what, it'sincremental.

SPEAKER_01 (20:13):
Yeah, it's it's got to be this incremental shift
because you have to slowlygather people that they don't
need to agree with you, butthey're They at least need to be
able to sit down at the tablewith you and have a discussion.

SPEAKER_02 (20:25):
And they have to see the validity in it.

SPEAKER_01 (20:27):
Yes.

SPEAKER_02 (20:28):
Like they have to see the validity in what you're
proposing.
Yeah.
Um, I think to take it back tobullying, one of the things I
talk about with my kids all thetime, you know, with that, hey,
just ignore is what's always oneof the hardest lessons for me to
learn.
And it to be fair, I stillstruggle with it, is you
wouldn't care so much about whatother people think of you if you

(20:50):
knew how little they actuallydo.
And not meaning that they thinklittle of you, but you're not a
most people are so focused onthemselves.
Right.
Right.
I could give two f about anotherperson.
Like that's our society rightnow.
I am so focused on what I wantthat, you know, I don't care the
effect that it has on you.

(21:12):
I don't care that sometimes, anddepending on the person you're
talking to, that you're evenhere, that you even exist.

SPEAKER_03 (21:18):
Right.
It's so interesting you say thatbecause well, I don't know the
exact phrasing of this, but it'slike assholes make it the
farthest.
Absolutely.
The more of an asshole you are,the more successful you are.
Here's the thing is I I'm eventhinking about this myself, and
I it's not something I couldever like identify with.
But I'm thinking I'm thinkinglogically, though, it's like,

(21:39):
fuck, I get why people areassholes to get by in this world
right now.
Yeah.
You have to be selfish to alevel if you want to get
anywhere.
It's still something to my coreI can't get myself to do.
But I'm thinking, gosh, there'sopportunities I could have taken
advantage or at least cost someruckus to get something out of
it.
Tony knows probably thesituation I'm referring to with

(22:00):
School of Rock.
I could have done some thingsthere that would have caused
some unrest, but I probablycould have gotten some payout
from that.
But either way, it's like, I doactually understand why I
wouldn't do it.
I totally understand why peoplehave to be fucking assholes to
each other to get by.
And that's just to get by.

SPEAKER_04 (22:21):
I'm sitting over here thinking the whole time,
you know, we're talking abouthow do we restructure a society,
and yet the people that aresitting at the top of society
they did that, would probablynot pass some of your tests.
No, have the diagnosis.
Yeah, no.
So so you have sociopaths andpsychopaths that are running
climbing everything and runningeverything, yet we're all down

(22:44):
here talking about how we need,you know, I have to feel empathy
for this other person.
We're in this together, right?

SPEAKER_02 (22:51):
I mean, we may or may not be run by a narcissist
right now.
Okay.

SPEAKER_03 (22:57):
And again, we're staying staying far from
political, but I thinkobjectively we could say that
man's a narcissist workingpolitically.
I yeah, I think I think mostpeople could probably admit he's
a narcissist.
Yeah, yeah.
No.
What's actually just not just areal quick blurb.
I think that I don't rememberwho said this, but I heard is

(23:18):
that in order to have anyposition of that kind of power
or influence, you probably haveto be a narcissist.
Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 (23:25):
Yeah.
Well, it's that whole extremetype A personality.
Right.
It's like I know what's best forfor you to have it.
I feel like a lot of us evenbelieve it who have enough
empathy to understand how ouractions would hurt someone else.
But to have a big enough globalview, oh yeah.

(23:45):
Right.
You have to suck the empathy outof that situation.
Absolutely.
No.
And it ends up turning itselfupside down again.
So how do you topple that?

SPEAKER_02 (23:55):
Because I think there's some people hurting my
brain, didn't it?
I'm sorry.
There there are absolutely somepeople who exist in this world
who are completely either, I'mgonna say, oblivious to the fact
that other people have goals ordrive or exist.
And there are some people whoknow they exist and act the way
that they do despite the factother people exist.

(24:18):
Because again, this is kind ofmore the positive quote ish, or
at least it's the understandableside of things to me.
It's the one that I can acceptbecause if you don't know, it's
the ignorance.
It's like I'm not gonna, I can'tjudge somebody for something
they don't know.
Like if you don't knowsomething's wrong, I can't take
it personally because I'm like,I've had moments where I'm ADHD

(24:43):
and I'm just completelydistracted walking through the
grocery store or whatever, and Ibump into somebody and I'm
totally not doing it on purpose.
I just am oblivious.
Like I'm just I'm so in my ownthoughts and my own feelings and
stuff that I'm not payingattention and what's going on.
And so in those moments whensomebody like yells or cusses or

(25:04):
whatever, it's hard, it's hardfor me to go, I didn't do it on
purpose.
So, like that, again, if I'mignorant to the fact I
personally have started, havedone things through my entire
life to minimize the number oftimes those kind of situations
happen.
Because I don't want to beignorant of other people.
I don't want to be dismissive ofthe existence of other people.

(25:27):
But I do know that there arepeople out there who are
ignorant of drive, ignorant ofthe fact that if I make choice A
versus choice B, I'm gonna dobetter, but other people are
not.
If you don't know that, I guessI can accept and understand.
But again, as my role as aprofessional, especially if like

(25:48):
it's an adult or a kid that Iwork with that's in this brain,
you know, in this mindset,that's where I come in and go,
okay, this is what that effecthad on you as a person.
You have to show you, I have toteach you empathy, which is
something very hard to teach.
Nearly impossible.

SPEAKER_04 (26:07):
These are very beautiful words, but you fired.
Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 (26:09):
What's interesting though is that, you know, as a
human being.
You just changed a coupleshades.
As a human being, it's end ofsummer.
Man, I understand.
I look at other humans and I'mthinking, fuck, you should know
how to be empathetic.
Why do I have to teach youanything?
Why do I have to show you as ahuman being how to air?

(26:32):
And honestly, that even goesinto personal relationships.
It's like I'm in a relationshipwith somebody, and it's not
necessarily my wife or whoever,but it's like, I have to explain
to you why you should, why youshould get that or why you
should care about that, or whyyou should go out of your way to
just do that.
Like, shouldn't you just knowthat?
You know, it's difficult, asespecially I'm somebody who's

(26:53):
incredibly empathetic.
Probably do a fault at times, asI imagine times are.
Absolutely.
And I wonder if that comes withthe field to a little bit.

SPEAKER_02 (27:01):
It attracts, it attracts it certainly attracts
that type of person.
It attracts people to do that.
Yeah.
Cause I I was talking to beforewe started that I didn't come to
social work or the socialservices field as a first
choice.
Right.
Um, because I didn't know, to behonest, that it existed.
Right.
Um, my dad comes out of my dadwas a pastor, my mom was a

(27:23):
teacher, and so life was justyou help other people because
from out of your abundance,whether that abundance be a lot
or just, you know, whateveryours is, out of my abundance, I
help other people.
Right.
Right.
That's what it's that's what I'mhere for.
Because we are a society.
We are people who are supposedto live and do this thing called
life together.

(27:44):
And so my question, and whatdraw me, drew me to education
was, you know, or at least thework, the field of working with
people in any way, shape, orform was I saw a lot of kids
that I grew up with struggling.
And the question I had was not,okay, it was why.
Like, why are you having such ahard time?

(28:04):
And I'm not.
And again, that's not me tryingto come from a place of humble
brag or bragging, or it was wego back to the whole privilege,
right?
I'm very aware of my privilege.
I'm very aware of the fact thatI've gotten where I'm at.
And again, you know, there aredays where I'm like, where am I?
Um, but there, but because lifeis hard wherever you're at, but

(28:27):
there are days where I've gone,okay, so why is this happening
to you and not to me?
I didn't know what that meant.
I didn't know where to approachthat, but I had a music teacher,
I had a choir teacher, um, whenI was in second grade tell me
you have a great voice.
And that motivated me to dosomething with myself, right?

(28:49):
Because I liked that.
And so I said, Hey, I want to bethat person for somebody else.

SPEAKER_05 (28:55):
Right.

SPEAKER_02 (28:55):
Yeah, yeah.
Like that's what's drawn mehere.
And so that's why when I startedout in school, I wanted to be a
choir teacher.
And then I got involved withlike outreach theater and
presentations and stuff toschools.
And I was like, this is awesome.
I could do this, you know, Icould be a music teacher during
the day, and I could work withkids in the, you know, we could
do this whole thing afterschool.

(29:16):
And I sat with my advisor on mysophomore year of college and he
was like, that's not how thisworks.
Like, if you're a band teacher,if you're a choir teacher, like
you're working a 60-hour weekjob.
Like just to do that.
Right.
So you're not so you don't havethis.
And so I had somebody sit medown and go, if you're

(29:37):
interested in this, you shoulddo social work.
And my question at that pointwas like, what's social work?
Oh, so you hadn't even Because Ihadn't even like my ex my
experience with counseling orwith talking to people was my
dad or my mom.
Right.
Listening and talking to people.
Because my mom was that personwhen she was in a high school or

(29:58):
in a middle school, she was thatteacher that people would come
to and talk to afterwards, thatkind of thing.
She taught at Ivy Tech for thelongest time and worked with
students who were struggling andthat kind of stuff.
Worked with, you know, peoplecoming back after lots of years,
not working, not not being inschool or working with kids who
are fresh out of high school,but were probably should have

(30:19):
still been in high schoolbecause of academically where
they were functioning.
And so I was surrounded bypeople who helped people.
Yeah.
So that was just, you know, myworldview and my my common sense
was you help people.
That's just what you do.
So I didn't, you know, I've onlyonly really ever dealt with a
school counselor to do likescholarships.

SPEAKER_03 (30:42):
Right.

SPEAKER_02 (30:43):
And at that point in time, they were giving me things
that I'd already done.
So I was like, whatever.
But then I went and talked to aawesome woman, God rest her
soul, named Lou Jean Walton, uhat Valparays University.
She was a hard smoking, like atthis point in time when I was in
college, you could still smokein buildings.
Um, so walking into her office,it was smoke-covered, no

(31:07):
nonsense black woman who grew upin East Chicago, was in the, you
know, in you know, this thecivil rights movement in
Northwest Indiana.
Wow.
When they were protesting KKKrallies and stuff, like just and
I'm like, this is a thing?
Like, this is a job.
I can do this.

(31:28):
I just thought this was what youdo.
But then, you know, thankfully,through my undergraduate and my
graduate education, thetheoretical motivations and the
things behind what we do and whythey work, I was able to pick
that piece up.
And I'm very now passionateabout the work that I do and the
work that, you know, the thefield that I'm in.

(31:51):
But it was, it's something thatmost people still don't
understand.
Cause like you said, like, whydo I have to tell you this?
Right.
Right.
Like, why do I have to be theperson that educates you?
And then certain situations,like if it's a preference or
it's something that like myselffrom a sensory perspective or my
own experience that I need youto understand.

(32:13):
This is why I'm responding andthis is why I'm acting in a
certain way.
Like, yeah, I might have toeducate you as a person I'm in a
relationship with because it'ssomething that is unique to me.
Right.
Right.
But I believe that there arecertain universal truths that
everybody should understand.
Like, I go back to Will Wheaton,don't be a dick.

(32:34):
Like, that is the, you know,Wheaton's law, don't be a dick.
That is the probably the numberone thing that I live by.
But with my kids, I don'tobviously use the don't be a
dick thing, especially exceptfor some of my older kids
sometimes.
Sure.
Because my rule is always if youneed to say something, I'm not
asking you to censor yourself.
As long as that door's shut andyou're not being disrespectful

(32:56):
to anybody, I'll say it what yougotta say.

unknown (32:58):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 (32:58):
Um my dad was that way too.
But um, it's that piece ofrespect.
Right.
You know, and I think that'ssomething that's very difficult
in this day and age because theshift also, the culture shift
has been why should I respectyou?
Oh, yeah.
Yeah.
Like if you haven't shown merespect, I used to why should I
respect from respect?

(33:20):
Yeah, it starts from a place ofrespect.
Right.
Now it now it has to beverified.
Yeah.
Cause let alone the person, youknow, exactly.
Let alone the way that I've seenkids that I work with interact
with each other, but the waythat I've seen them interact
with the adults in their lives,granted, I understand a lot of
it comes from a place of trauma.

(33:41):
A lot of it comes from a placeof I don't have a reason to
trust you because you are therepresentation or you look like
a face that treated me XYZ wayin my history.
So why should I respect you?
Because I know, or I'm waitingfor you to be a dick, right?
Or for you to do something thatis gonna make me upset.

(34:02):
Right.
So it's that I'm gonna do it toyou before you can do it to me.
But the way that I've seen kidstalk to each other and to adults
in their lives, whether it bemom, dad, teacher, principal,
I'm like, I didn't get hit, butif I talk to a if I talk to an
adult the way that I'm hearingkids talk to, I would be knocked

(34:23):
the fuck out.

SPEAKER_03 (34:24):
Uh yeah, I I think all four of us probably should
could attend to that.
Yeah.
What what's interesting is thatyou you mentioned that you know
you have to start out withrespect, and and that can't
probably should earn that to anextent.

SPEAKER_02 (34:39):
So I think the piece that I try to ingrain is respect
for basic human decency.
Yeah.
Like I need to treat you like ahuman.
I should respect you because Iwant to be treated the same way.
So again, cliche, golden ruletreat others like you want to be
treated.
Yeah.
So even if it's to that point ofrespect, right?

(35:01):
That to me is the piece a lot oftimes that's missing.
Sure, sure.
And that's not just with kids,that's with adults as well.
No, 100%.
You know, like I need to respectyou because I wouldn't want to
be treated in the same way.
Right.
So it may not be, yes, I'mfighting against, especially
with uh authority figures orpolice officers.

(35:22):
I have had multipleconversations with kids,
especially my middle schoolersthat I worked with, that the
second I start to try to eventake up for a police officer or
a teacher or a principal orsomebody in authority with this
person, they're like, fuck you,you know.
Yeah, you I don't have I'm notlistening to anything you're

(35:44):
gonna say anymore.
You're you're one of thembecause you're standing up for
them.
Exactly.
And it's not so much that I'mgoing there, I'm I'm always
trying to get the people I workwith to see things from other
people's perspective.

SPEAKER_03 (35:56):
Oh, that's one of the most important things.

SPEAKER_02 (35:58):
And it's the piece that I think is missing just
from general human educationright now.
Like understanding otherpeople's perspectives, trying to
understand the effect that mychoices have on someone else.
Right.
Not necessarily meaning thatthat's gonna change my choices,
right?
But underlying concept,underlying thought process for

(36:20):
anything behavioral, anythingmental health is every behavior.
Everything's a behavior, firstof all.
Everything's a behavior.
So you'll hear a lot of times,well, this kid's a behavior
issue.
What does that mean?
They're standing, they'resitting, right?
They're eating.
What's the behavior that's theproblem?
Right.
Because we've taken like abehavior as a bad thing.

(36:41):
Me talking and waving my handsaround in the air is a behavior.
Right.
Trying to ex, I'm trying toexplain myself when I'm trying
to talk, it's a behavior.
That behavior has a consequence.
Right.
People think I'm crazy becauseI'm waving my hands around in
the air.
Right.
Right.
You know, but consequence hasalso taken on a connotation of
it's always bad.
Like if I hear, well, what's theconcept?
If I say, well, what's theconsequence of that choice that

(37:03):
you just made?
I'm always, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 (37:04):
Well, I didn't get in trouble.
Oh shit.
What yeah, what bad's about?
Exactly.
Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 (37:08):
Or they say, I didn't get in trouble, there was
no consequence.
I'm like, yeah, but there was.
Yeah.
So you were upset and you talkedabout that, right?
And you said that to somebody.
Right.
The consequence was theyunderstood you.
Right.
Like you got understandingthrough your behavior.
Yeah.
The antecedent, we talkantecedent behavior,

(37:28):
consequence.
The antecedent for that choicewas you were upset about
something.
Right.
That motivated you to do thebehavior of talking.
Right.
That behavior of talking got youthe positive consequence of
understanding.
Right.
That's what you need to do.

SPEAKER_03 (37:44):
A lot of it sounds like it comes down to changing
the connotation of a lot ofthese words, right?
Absolutely.
Instead of everything havingsuch a negative, you know,
connotation, like consequence orbehavior and things, you know,
it's it comes down.
It can be both.
And it is both.
And, you know, you kind of whatI was going to say earlier came
back to me is, you know, uh, Iwas kind of going back to that

(38:05):
respect piece, you know, and I Iwant your opinion on when the
hell did that change?
Because, you know, I, you know,on fair enough.
Computers, internet, and that'sa big piece of it.
Yeah.
And what's interesting is like,you know, go ahead.

SPEAKER_04 (38:17):
Well, I was just gonna part of what I was
thinking as you guys were havingthe conversation is the ABC,
right?
Antecedent behavior.
The consequence.
What is the consequence toputting something nasty,
threatening, snarky, whatever,negative online?
Clout.
Clicks, views, money.

(38:38):
That's the big shift.

SPEAKER_03 (38:40):
That's because what do we talk about?
Remember when you and I werebrainstorming ideas to get
attention for this thing?
Right.
Controversy.
Yeah.
Rage bait.
Rage bait.
Here's then the idea is okay,we're gonna put a something out
there that people are, well,it's controversial.
It's controversial, but thenthey come to the full product.
Yeah.
Right.
And they see Oh, but there is nofull product.

(39:01):
Just like the cancer episode wedid.
Yeah.
We did that exact same thing.
People thought that that was ourthat was our blow-up episode.
That's what made this.
It was because I said there weresimilarities between cancer and
mental illness and the supportsystem and all that stuff.
It's not that I was saying onewas worse.
That's how people interpretedit.
Well, then I said, Well, Iposted a whole podcast episode

(39:22):
where my co-host and I reallydug into it.

SPEAKER_04 (39:24):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 (39:25):
And then people came out of it like that's what he
was saying.
Now I'm not gonna say that T Dogover here didn't have a lot of
influence on clarifying thatbecause who I am, but that's
exactly it, is controversy.
And I think that kind of ties inwith what I was gonna say.
So, you know, I see a lot ofelderly friends of mine, like my
grandmother, like she's not mygrandmother, but you know,

(39:47):
individual in my life that arein the 60s or older age, you
know, constantly posting onFacebook this whole thing of
what happened to kids, you know,they're cussing all the time and
disrespecting their elders, andand it's accurate.
But what you said, like yourson, your older one especially,
is that when he comes to you, hecan kind of say it however he
wants, but as long as thatrespect is established, yeah,

(40:08):
that's okay.
My dad was the same way.
So how do we get that back?
Where the freedom ofexpression's there while
maintaining the respect, becausethat's where the disconnect is.

SPEAKER_01 (40:20):
Yeah.
So I agree.

SPEAKER_03 (40:22):
I I'll Jump in a little bit.

SPEAKER_01 (40:23):
Um please do.
The the so I I work in tech.
I am not a tech person.
I don't have the credentials.
I don't have the educationbackground.
Um I have a lot of personalexperience with it.
So I can speak to Tony, you'renot wrong.

(40:47):
Computers are an issue, but it'snot the computer is the issue.
It is how we use it.

SPEAKER_04 (40:53):
It's like the gun thing.

SPEAKER_01 (40:54):
Yeah, exactly.
And and how it has been acceptedto be used.
A lot of if we want to tie itinto bullying and kids and all
that stuff, we can for sure.
Um, but it it goes so muchbroader than that.
People need to remember that thephone in your pocket is not a
phone and it hasn't been for thebetter part of two decades.

(41:15):
Yep.
Yeah.
It is a computer.
I forget, I think the firstiPhone had more computing power
than the entire US Air Force inlike the 80s or something.
One iPhone.
Uh-huh.
People people need to rememberhow powerful technology is and
how little education there issurrounding it.
Right.

SPEAKER_04 (41:35):
How far-reaching it.

SPEAKER_01 (41:36):
It's not even, I'm not even talking about like
acceptable use cases oftechnology, simply how it
functions.
It has become the scary magicbox that people don't know
what's inside.
That listens to you.
Yeah.
So, like stuff like that.
Can you tell me how it listensto me?
No.
No.
I can't tell you how it, yeah,how it does that stuff.

(41:56):
If it does that stuff.
So these conversations sprout upwhere people just start saying
things about what your phonedoes, what the algorithm is and
what it does.
I'm not going to say, like, goto this website and you'll learn
everything you need to knowabout the cloud and how
algorithms work and whatever.
What I am saying is what I pushfor people to try and do is try

(42:17):
to be involved.
Yeah.
Try to at least get a baseunderstanding of what is going
on with this stuff.

SPEAKER_03 (42:24):
Stop pontificating about it.

SPEAKER_01 (42:26):
Stop pontificating because that just spreads
misinformation.
And that just lets the peoplewho do know how it works, who do
want to abuse it, it gives themgreater footholds to do so.

SPEAKER_02 (42:38):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 (42:38):
Right.

SPEAKER_02 (42:39):
It's the new satanic panic.
Exactly.
Technology, the new satanicpanic.
And I I was going to push.
I was going to go and say, Ithink it changed when media in
general took the stance of if itbleeds, it leads.
Anytime we were, you know,they're presenting something
that's a news article.
Granted, there's a lot of shitthat happens in the world today

(43:01):
that sucks.
Right.
There's a lot of things that areterrifying.
There's a lot of things that areterrible.
There are a lot of tragedies andhorrible things that happen
every day that we don't knowabout.
And ones that we do know about.
Plenty that we know about.
Right.
But the stuff that doesn't getsaid or shared or talked about
is the positive things.

unknown (43:22):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 (43:23):
Because nobody wants to listen to it.
You know, it's in if you boil itdown to human behavior, if you
tell me 15 good things aboutmyself, you're going to listen
to it.
And then you tell me one badthing, that's the thing I'm
going to listen to.
Right.
That's the thing that's going toplay in my head for the next 20
years.
Yep.

SPEAKER_03 (43:43):
Well.
Yeah.
And what I was going to sayearlier, and I'm glad you
brought that up, is, you know,we're talking about how the
imposter syndrome side ofthings.
And, you know, in our own heads,I think all at least the three
of us, I don't I've got to dothat.
Oh no, I figured I don't want toput any words in your mouth.
But it's just, you know, wecan't expect others to change
that perspective for us.

(44:04):
It's like, you can tell me allday long I'm a great drummer,
I'm a great father, I'm a greathusband.
You actually can't convince meof that.
That is work we have to dointernally.
Because I've told Tony up anddown, you're this phenomenal
drummer and you're world class.
And objectively, you are youare.
And I think objectively, youprobably even know that

(44:24):
objectively, because I canobjectively look and say, I'm
not a bad drummer.
I'm a pretty good dad.
I'm a pretty good husband.
But yet that isn't tied directlyto my emotions about it.
We always downplay it.
We always minimize ourabilities.

SPEAKER_02 (44:40):
Right.
Always.

SPEAKER_01 (44:41):
We're too close to them.
We we we're the ones that we'reworst critic, like you said.
We see our effort and we seewhere we failed.
We see what we could have doneright.
And other people, they just theymost of the time they just see
the results.

SPEAKER_02 (44:54):
And the worst thing I think is you see other people
doing it better.
You see other people being moresuccessful.
Thief is the we're alwayscomparing ourselves to
especially now in the world oftechnology.
Well, it's just so you know.
Yeah, exactly.
And it's the period.
Yeah, absolutely.
And that's the piece that ismissed 99% of the time that this

(45:18):
is a presentation.
This is a scripted interactionthat we are filming.
Even the ones are like, well, wejust film all the time, we just
do no, no, no, you don't.

SPEAKER_01 (45:28):
No, you don't.
You you cannot prove to me thatyou didn't do 10 takes and you
just that's the one that lookedthe most nonchalant.
The only way to not prove thatto me.

SPEAKER_02 (45:35):
The only way for anybody to do that is that you
just have hidden cameras in yourhouse that even you don't know
about that are filming you 100%of the time.

SPEAKER_03 (45:43):
Yeah.
Well, it's because when you'reon camera, no matter what,
there's a moment of performance.
Absolutely.
You can't get away from that.
No, you can't.

SPEAKER_01 (45:51):
Even even if you're just starting out, like I'm sure
you guys, when you were filmingearlier episodes and you're
smaller, you absolutely wouldhave that.
You're like, there's a chancepeople will see this.
It doesn't matter if zero peoplewatch.
Right.
The the next one, somebody mightwatch it.
Right.
There, there's always gonna bethat element of performance.
And it still is, by the way.

SPEAKER_03 (46:11):
I mean, it's not like, you know, I I I say a lot,
you know, I put anything outthere, but you got when I think
about it, it's like, well, thatthat little too, but I'm not
gonna you know what I'm saying?
So they're enough.
They're always self-censoring inthat.

SPEAKER_01 (46:23):
Always.
And the thing is, is like,that's not a bad thing.
No.
The the problem comes in on thereceiving end when people look
at that stuff and they're like,this is what it is.
That was the piece that's gonnacome down.
That's the truth, that's real,that's who they really are.
Right.
They're that all the time.
Right.
No.
Especially bringing it back tokids.

SPEAKER_02 (46:40):
Exactly.
Kids don't have theunderstanding, the wisdom, and
the knowledge to know this isscripted, this is a
presentation, this is an artform, this is a performance.
Yep.
Look at that and go, that's notmy family, my family's wrong.
That's not me.
I'm wrong.
And they aspire, they looked atthat as an aspirational piece or

(47:05):
something to look up to, whetherit be somebody flexing money,
whether it be, you know, thiskid going on YouTube and filming
all of their, you know, all oftheir antics and stuff and
getting millions and millions ofdollars for their family and
that kind of stuff.
I have kids that are trying tobe influencers.
Right.
At like 10.
Yeah.

(47:26):
My son said he was gonna be aYouTuber.
I'm like that is literally everykid I ever talked to, they were
like, Well, I want to be thisand a YouTuber.
Right.
Like that is a job that theywant now.

SPEAKER_03 (47:37):
I'm like 1% of the people that actually make it.
Oh, I was gonna say is theythink it's easy.
It's the new rock star.
Yeah.
It is, but they think it's easy.
They think this is a and I stillhave imposter syndrome about
this fucking thing, but again,the evidence shows it's doing
okay.
But again, it's like it wasn'teasy.

(47:58):
And honestly, I don't know howmuch of it was luck or or what,
but it's not just you putting aton of videos out there and
expecting that, oh, that's gonnado it.

SPEAKER_01 (48:07):
Something's gonna go viral.
Right.
And I know we don't do likestats a lot.
There was a study, and I need tofind it.
Uh, there was a study that itwas, I think it was measuring
intelligence and where you endup in life and how much of that
is just purely random andluck-based.
Okay.
It doesn't matter how how muchhard work you put in or how
smart you are.
Right.
There is a large element almostmeasurable of luck.

(48:30):
Yeah.
Like it doesn't matter.
Situation.
Yeah, just where you end up.
Like a lot of it environment.
Yeah, you can put in the work.
You can you can be smart for alot of people, that ultimately
will not get them exactly wherethey want to go.
And maybe not even close.

SPEAKER_03 (48:46):
Maybe not even close, maybe not even the same
ballpark.
And there's there's two pieces Iwant to add to that.
So it's like, you know, you andI have talked how Virgil Donati
is is the greatest drummer, theleast I think so, and you one of
them.
But yet we've mentioned youespecially have been like,
there's probably many otherVirgils out there.
Oh, yeah.
I mean, there probably are tothat level of playing.
I still, in my own fucking head,I'm like, there's there's no

(49:07):
way.
Because I haven't seen him.
But the other thing I was gonnasay is one of the most profound
pieces I've just had in my owntherapy, I go to therapy.

SPEAKER_05 (49:16):
Me too.

SPEAKER_03 (49:17):
Is he too?
Yeah.
So one of the best pieces ofjust reframing that my therapist
gave me was hypothetical.
So it's like, well, what if thishappened?
Like even thinking about thefuture too much is like, I'm
trying to get on disabilityright now.
I'm waiting for those benefitsto roll and it's taking forever.
So it's like, you know, I'mhaving conversations.

(49:38):
I'm having conversations with mydad right now, who's supporting
us pretty much financially,because he's got ability to do
that.
Now it's getting to the pointwhere he's tapping some
reserves, right?
And he's he's having to think,and he's somebody who thinks way
into the future.
Yeah.
Yeah.
But you know, he he's broughtup, you know, like, I mean, if
this goes on too long, you mightbe moving under our route for a
while, kind of thing.

(49:58):
So that radical of change, whichis unbelievably terrifying to me
for multitude of reasons.
Absolutely.
By the way, when I was talkingto my, you know, my therapist
about this sort of thing, andwe're not just talking about the
future, but we're talking about,you know, what if this happened?
What if I had to make thisdecision?
It's like her thing washypotheticals are some of the
most damaging things.

(50:19):
And it's because they don'tactually matter at all.
That's toxic thinking.
I don't even hate that word, butit's it's negative thinking
because it doesn't matter.
Her illustration of that was letNick in this dimension deal with
that.
You're not that Nick.
You, this is where you're at.
That was so profound to mebecause I spend so much time,

(50:40):
and I still struggle with it,but I spent so much time
thinking, God damn it, if I hadgotten on disability five years
ago before I had my son, howmuch easier would it be right
now?
Or, you know, if I hadn'tpursued going to the GM level at
school of rock and just stayed adrum instructor while I was
happy, you know, where would Ibe?
You know, it's like, but itdoesn't matter.

(51:00):
It doesn't matter.
You're passing it.
It can inform in the future.
Yeah.
That's the other thing.
Like your choices can informwhat you do later, but they
don't matter after it happensbecause it's hypothetical.
It doesn't matter.

SPEAKER_02 (51:11):
That was such a really eye-opening piece of
well, because the what ifprocessing and if I only and the
this, you know, the theprocessing things that could
have been or could have happenedis a form of worrying.
Right.
It's worrying for the future inreverse.
Yeah.
If that makes sense.

(51:33):
Really weird.
Like you if I could have madethis choice differently, I would
have been here now.
You know, real quick, go aheadand play that in a few other
ways, just in case.

SPEAKER_03 (51:40):
Sure.

SPEAKER_02 (51:40):
That's me.
Well, again, like everything Ilike to do.
I usually have a movie quote ora quote of somebody that said it
better than me.

SPEAKER_03 (51:49):
Same.
Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 (51:50):
Um, so that's another thing that I was gonna
do because I heard a long timeago, worrying is like a rocking
chair.
Gives you something to do, butit doesn't get you anywhere.
What movie's that?
I have no idea.
Oh, but I am and I don't knowthat one.
It's because again, I'm sittinghere in the moment thinking

(52:11):
about things that could havehappened, stewing,
discriminating, and in my case,sometimes actually rocking
because of stemming and thatkind of stuff.
Like yes, opposite.
Um, but again, worrying, whatifing, and I say that to like my
own kids, my biological kids,especially my oldest, because he
has a lot of there's a lot ofanxiety that runs in both sides

(52:33):
of our family.
So he has definitely someanxiety going on as well.
And so, you know, worrying aboutthis, making this choice.
Like if I make this choice as a17-year-old, it's gonna affect
my life at 35.
And I'm like, maybe.
Maybe, maybe it will.
But again, I look at my ownthing.
Like, I switched my career as asophomore in college, you know,

(52:54):
and I didn't go to a cheapcollege.
I went to a private school.
Thank you, mom and dad.

SPEAKER_03 (52:58):
But you know, privilege again.

SPEAKER_02 (53:00):
Exactly.
I had the opportunity to do it.
Right.
Um, and I had the opportunity tochange my mind.
Yeah, and I changed my mind fromsomething that was gonna pay me
not well to something that wasgonna pay me even less.
Right.
You know, and I have the whatif, like, what if I have a head
for business, I have a head forthis, I have a head for this.
I'm a smart dude.
I could have done this, I couldhave been making so much more

(53:22):
money.
I see my wife is a medicalassistant, so she works in a
doctor's office.
She, it's anotherfemale-dominated field a lot of
times.
Yeah.
So she has friends whose parentsare like finance, whose husbands
are like finance bros and liketech people and big money stuff.

(53:43):
And I look at the fact that ifGod love her, if she did not
have an income coming in, Iwould love to be the only person
that has to work.
Because she's always like, well,her from her friends, and it
she's not saying in anaspirational way.
No, I know she's saying it in ain a I don't get it.
This is not my life.
Like the I it's it's almost likean incredulity of how she feels

(54:04):
and how she's doing this.
Like this person has theaudacity to feel like they could
just quit tomorrow.
So they don't have to act likethey need this job.
Right.
Um, whereas she's going in andworking her tail off and dealing
with all the crap she can getthrown at her every day.
God love her.
Um, but if she didn't have anincome coming in, like most
people say most Americans arethree paychecks away from losing

(54:28):
their house or losing theirhouse.
We're lucky if it's maybe two,to be perfectly honest.
And that's hers and mine.
Like if she loses a P loses apaycheck and I lose a paycheck,
we're at least calling people,going, hey, what can I do?
What kind of what loan can I do?
What you know, what time framecan you give me a break?
Can you bump stuff back?

(54:48):
Our early marriage, there was alot of that.
And a lot of it, you know,again, privilege.
My parents helped us outfinancially.
Um, and I had still had a jobwhen they were helping us out
financially, right?
Let alone the times that I lostjobs.

SPEAKER_03 (55:02):
Yeah.
Well, that was a lot of what yousaid.
They're really home to mebecause it does come down to
privilege again, and but it'sone of those hypotheticals too.
But it's like, you know, if Ididn't have my dad's reserves,
and we're generational wealth.
Yeah.
That's full family.
We're generational.
So he didn't make all that.
It was my grandparents andgreat-grandparents.

(55:24):
But they passed really young, sohe got access to it pretty
early.
Um, what I was gonna say is, youknow, I have no idea where we
would be if I had to get ondisability right now and I
didn't have his resources torely on.
It's one of those things where,you know, you weigh your
negatives with your positives.

(55:45):
I can say that it's a nightmarenot working right now.
And real quick, I'll add thisblurb you know why I'm looking
at the cameras.
I'll add this blurb for you guysis that I don't and counter me
if you disagree, but I think ifyou're mentally ill, I almost
attribute this to damn nearanybody, and you're not
incapacitated, you should work.
I would agree.

SPEAKER_02 (56:05):
I think that working, doing something
productive, being productive isa human quality.
It is absolutely healthy.
The people who don't havesomething motivating them in
life.
Right.
It cut to me, it breaks down toa motivation.
If I'm not motivated to doanything, then I'm sitting on my
couch doing nothing.

(56:25):
And that's not much of a life.
It's not, you know, it's coolfor a while.
Like I'm not gonna tell you if Itake a if I take a weekend off.
Like I sat all day yesterday andplayed video games.
Yeah.
Um, with my wife sitting next tome reading a book.
Yeah.
You know, it's I like days likethat.
I like days like that.
You know, and was there otherthings I should have been doing?
Absolutely.
But that's fine for a while.

(56:47):
But I can tell you when Ihaven't, when I've been out of
work, been between work, andI've even been hustling to try
to get jobs, like that sittingat home and doing nothing and
watching my wife go out andstill be productive, watching my
kids go to school as a man,especially, thank you, makes me
feel like a worthless piece ofshit.
Piece of human being.

(57:07):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 (57:08):
100%.
Absolutely.
Um and I I'm in a perpetualstate of that right now.
You know, I know that the thatthe result of getting these
benefits is going to be what'sgoing to be best for all of us,
but in the thick of it, youknow, not working, and you know,
contributing around the houseand and and things like that and
handling most of the out theexternal, you know, tasks and

(57:31):
things has its benefit, butthere's some mindfuckery to if
you're not making money for it.

SPEAKER_05 (57:37):
Right.

SPEAKER_03 (57:37):
Well, and that's the other thing.
Because then it takes the worthaway legitimately from it.
You're like, I'm doing all thesethings and I know it's
contributing to the bettermentof our lives right now.
And it's like, are you buildingsomething from the future?
Not actually making any money,so why does it matter?

SPEAKER_02 (57:51):
Yeah.
Because we tie everything tomoney.
Everything's the money.
I and with that being said,going back to society, going
back to gov, you know, what wesupport, what we don't support,
what we promote, what we don'tpromote, the supports that
exist, whether it be food banks,whether it be food stamps, EBT,
whether it be SNAP, whether itbe CCDF for childcare, whether

(58:14):
it be disability, whether it beinsurance, any of that stuff is
tied directly to effort.
There are a work either you haveto jump through so many hoops,
or you have to still evenunemployment insurance.
If you get laid off from yourjob, you got to go to work one
and you have to show I'veapplied for three jobs this

(58:36):
week.
If you don't apply for threejobs this week, you get the
haircut.
I had to do that for threemonths and didn't even get the
benefits.
Like because work one, you know,I was in conversation or
processing with a pro formeremployer, and because I was
terminated for cause, I didn'tqualify.

(58:59):
Right.
You know, because there's a youknow, gotta love Indiana's at
will work state.
Well, the last ones, I believe,right?

SPEAKER_03 (59:05):
There's only we're one of the last ones of a lot of
things.
We were the weren't we literallythe last state to allow alcohol
sales on Sunday?
Is that right?

SPEAKER_02 (59:13):
That's one definitely one of them.
Unless you play very close tolast, yeah.
Yeah.
So I mean, there's there's lotsof other states that are more
conservative.
I don't know.
Let's talk about that for awhile.
Yeah, it's kidding.
Why do we stay?
We will lose listeners.
I was about to say, yeah, wewill.
We will.
Yeah.
Um, because again, I love thiscountry.
I love the state I live in, Ilove the people I'm around, I

(59:34):
love it for those reasons.
But again, there are lots ofthings that I would change
exactly.
But that piece of you have toproduce to get something from
me.
Like this thing that I am, I payinto Social Security, I pay into
taxes that, you know, fund allof the all of the programs that
everybody loves to cut firstthat are those safety nets that

(59:56):
happen that, you know, I've beenin positions in my current job
that I met a lot of because Istarted my job, my current job
during COVID.
And so everything was shut down.
I was in my school for a weekbefore we got locked down.
So I didn't even had a chance tomeet most of the kids that I
worked with at that point intime.
So a lot of my introduction tomy families was going to

(01:00:16):
gleaners.
Thank you, gleaners, you'reawesome, and picking up food for
families because.
Because they weren't either theywere essential workers and they
couldn't have time to go to agrocery store and didn't have
anybody to do it.
So they were food insecure.

SPEAKER_05 (01:00:31):
Right.

SPEAKER_02 (01:00:31):
We have a lot of places in this city that are
food insecure.
And hunger with kids is a majormotivator to whether they are
successful or not successful.
And so one of the introductionsI had for a lot of my kids was,
and my families especially, wasI'm picking up a box of food
with my pit bull in the back ofmy car and dropping it off to

(01:00:53):
kids, you know, dropping it offto families.
And that's how they knew me.
I've been in positions in thelast five years of this job
where I was going to a food bankfor someone, knowing full well,
hey, what do they have thisweek?
That I might need to be back formyself next week.
Wow.
Because things are tough.

(01:01:14):
Things are tight.
Yeah.
You know, whether it be throughchoices that I made or things
that happened to me.
Or just finance or just life ingeneral.
In general, it's established forus, you know, out of our
control.
So the hustle is so ingrainedand so built into our culture
that we tie it to everything.
Universal basic basic income hasbeen a thing that's been

(01:01:36):
discussed for a long time.
I'm personally for it.
Having something where you havea I'm getting basic, we go back
to Maslow.
Maslow's hierarchy of needs.
That's something that is aneducational piece and it's also
a psychology piece, a socialwork piece.
It's the understanding that wehave a very level of things that
we need.

(01:01:57):
Sex is definitely sex isdefinitely there.
It is need.
But here's the thing if you'rehungry, you can't really don't
have the energy to have sex.
So it's those steps.
I do, but well, that's that'sit's satiated is hunger.
It's fair.
That's fair.
But you can't move up the ladderor the pyramid as it is towards
self-enlightenment or towardsself-actualization until you

(01:02:19):
meet everything else.
Right.
And so if I'm coming into aschool building and I have a kid
who didn't get to eat dinnerlast night, didn't get to eat
breakfast this morning becausethey're running late, I keep
food in my office that I reallycan't afford to keep doing all
the time most weeks.
Right.
But I keep, you know, and it'snothing it's nothing huge.
It's granola bars and fruitsnacks because it's stuff I know
kids will eat.

(01:02:40):
You know, I'm not gonna buysandwich meat and that kind of
stuff, or you know, yogurt oroatmeal.
Oh, yeah, stuff that would behelpful, you know, stuff that
would be more healthy and morehelpful for the kid.
But you know, it's the stuffeating they'll eat because I'm
like, if you're sitting here andyou walk in and you're angry
because you're hungry, how am Igonna send you to a classroom

(01:03:01):
where a teacher's going to geton your case, expect you to do
something you already don't wantto do, but you're hungry.
So your reaction is going to beless positive than if you have
something.

SPEAKER_01 (01:03:14):
You know, people joke about being angry.
No, it's a real fucking thing.

SPEAKER_03 (01:03:18):
It sounds like a legitimate thing.

SPEAKER_01 (01:03:20):
No, like it's so legitimate, like like at the ABA
center, that's something that wewere taught to consider.
I remember that.
Like when a kid comes in andthey're exhibiting and you're
they're exhibiting behaviors.
Sorry, they're exhibitingmaladaptive behaviors.
Understandable.
Yeah, you look at themotivation.
Are they trying to avoidsomething?
Or are they simply just notgetting a biological need met?

(01:03:42):
Yep.
Are they tired?
Are they hungry?
Are they constipated?
Like they have bathroom issues.
Like, is it any of these things?

SPEAKER_02 (01:03:50):
And especially if you're dealing with kids who
can't communicate that in themoment, whether it's because
they physically can'tcommunicate it or emotionally
because of where they're at,can't communicate it
effectively.
You have to do a detective workat that point in time.
Yeah.
So you go, okay, do you want totake a nap?
Do you need to go to thebathroom?
Do you need something to eat?
Let's walk down to the cafe, orlet me get the extra lunch stuff

(01:04:12):
that I keep with me.
I was packing extra lunch stufffor a long time.
The number of times I've givenkids sandwiches out of my lunch
or given kids, you know, applesor banana or whatever I've got,
whatever you'll eat out of mylunch is over 20 years.

SPEAKER_01 (01:04:25):
Yeah.
But you can even extrapolatethat out into society.
You can go down the street andsomebody flips you off and you
don't, you might not know why.
Maybe, maybe you cut them offand you didn't realize or so.
Whatever it is, like we goaround and we don't look at each
other with what's going on withMike?

(01:04:45):
Why is he so pissed off today?
Like he's an asshole.
Right.
You we just we just jump tothese conclusions where like you
don't understand.
Mike just had a really roughphone call on the way into work
and he just had to talk to hiswife because now they have to go
to the loan uh to the bank toget a loan at the end of his
day.
So, like, how do you how do youteach people empathy?

(01:05:06):
You know, you you really can't.
No.
You can in some ways, and inother ways, no, you're right.
It's a very difficult thing, butlike it it's that shift of
people need to start lookingoutward and trying to understand
why are things so shitty becauseeverybody's having a really
rough go.

(01:05:26):
And survival mode makes youselfish.
Oh, 100%.
100%.

SPEAKER_04 (01:05:30):
So and and loud.
And loud.
Because if you think about whoyou pay attention to online,
it's the loudest voice, theextremist views.

SPEAKER_03 (01:05:40):
Yeah.
And that's exactly what I'vesaid numerous times.
We were even kind of talkingabout is most people are very,
as we've said, you know,generous, kind, giving people.
I think.
At least people I try tosurround myself with.

SPEAKER_05 (01:05:52):
Well, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 (01:05:52):
And honestly, there's circles I don't really
associate with much that Iobserve that being a common
thing.
Right.
Are there tiers of it?
Sure.
Yeah.
But like most people are decentpeople and try to be.
Absolutely.
And certain situations we'represented with, sometimes we
just can't be that person forour own survival.
But what I was gonna say is, youknow, again, it comes down to

(01:06:13):
like the extreme voices outthere.
But when you knock those guysout, I'm not saying curtain.
When you get those guys, it'sgonna be a thing.
When you eliminate the outliers.
When you do that, and I'm justsaying let's cancel those voices
out, you're gonna find that mostpeople actually here in the
middle, decent people, right?
Right because it doesn't serveyou in life not to be.

(01:06:35):
It doesn't.
And the next part I want to getinto is the community aspect.
Community actually takes work.
Absolutely.
And that's the problem is I'venoticed within my own friend
group, you're you're notwithstanding in guffs,
certainly, or withstanding, howmay I said that wrong?
You're not included in that.
Is you're up the trying to beclear.
You're voted off.
You're in the group.

(01:06:55):
Actually, you're in the group.
I know.
But there there's a lot, there'scertain friends in my life who
listen to this, so I haven't hadthe heart to tell you in person,
but I've reached out kind ofobsessively to make sure they're
okay.
I either get ghosted, I don'tget responses.
And what's interesting is I knowwhat's going on with them.
I a couple of them, they'rereally going through a hard

(01:07:16):
time.
And I'm just like offering,like, I'm here.
Like, I'm here for you.
And they don't, they don't giveit back.
And I'm in my own head at thispoint kind of like, why am I
putting this energy?
And it's a lot of energy,whether it's not like I'm
reaching out every five seconds,but just emotional thought

(01:07:38):
process, you know, just thinkingabout them a lot.
Yeah.
And it's like sometimes I thinkI'm neglecting what I need a
little bit or even what mypartner and son needs on
occasion, not drastically, butyou know, your mind's different
places, so you're not present.
Yeah.
And just comes down to why am Iputting energy into this when I
know I feel like objectivelythey probably could use the

(01:07:59):
support.

SPEAKER_05 (01:07:59):
Right.

SPEAKER_03 (01:08:00):
That's like it's there in abundance.
But it's like I'm willing to putthe work in to you.
Why are you not leaning on me?
Because I know they're notleaning on anybody else.
But in their perspective, is itwork to have to lean on
somebody?
And I'm saying in general too,is it work for people to have to
because honestly, I'm also tothe point where I'm like, okay,

(01:08:21):
fuck it.
Like I put so much, so manyfeelers out there.
I'm selfish.
Exactly.
You have to become selfish.
And it also comes to the pointwhere not only do I say, fuck
you guys for a bit, I'm donetrying to help you because you
just don't seem to want it, eventhough I feel like I need it.
Yeah.
But beyond that, it's like, notonly do I say fuck you, it's

(01:08:42):
like, if I need you, I don'tthink I'm gonna reach out to you
now.

SPEAKER_05 (01:08:47):
Right.

SPEAKER_03 (01:08:47):
And I think I'm gonna say something.
I think I think I feel likeyou're gonna be.
I need it.
If I needed it, I feel like Iwould.
Maybe.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Because that doesn't feel likecommunity to me.
No.
It's not, it's not.
That's not reciprocity.

SPEAKER_01 (01:09:04):
That's not so we've been talking about it in a a
variety of ways.
To me, I view that as anextension of the
hyper-individualistic shift thatwe have of if I show you that I
need help, if I lean on you,then you're gonna have to expect
that later.

(01:09:25):
I'm weak.
What's that?
I'm not man enough, I'm not agood provider, I'm I can't do
it.
I can't let you see that.
And that that might not be truefor everybody.
It's a multitude of things,though, right?
It's not only that, it could beas simple as you overestimate
your place in their life.
That's very I know that'sprobably accurate.
Um, but it a lot of people arealso scared to be vulnerable,

(01:09:51):
not only with outside people onthe outside, um, with
themselves.
Sure.
It it's uncomfortable, it'spainful to sit with that.
Like, hey, I had to call Mikeand get money.
Like, that's oh, that's so hardto do.
Yeah, like that's that'sborderline painful for a lot of
people.
And uh, I forget who it was.
I want a quote now, too.

(01:10:12):
I don't remember who said it,and I'm gonna butcher the quote,
so I'll just summarize it.
Um you do a dishonor to peoplein your life, and I mean
friends, loved ones, not justlike a random coworker, random
person at the grocery store.
You do a dishonor and adisservice to that person if you
do not let them sit in the mudin the muck with you.
If you don't get in the shitwith your friends, are they

(01:10:34):
really your friends?
I don't think so.
I kind of agree with you.
I don't think so.
I don't either.
When I look at my own life, thepeople I'm closest to are the
people that know me and couldhurt me because they know those
deep things about me.
They know where I'm weak, theyknow where I'm vulnerable, and
they don't take advantage ofthat.
Oh, that's they don't use me asa they don't use me as a rung in

(01:10:56):
the ladder, they don't use me assomebody to forward whatever
goal, plan, scheme they have,they use that to build me up.
I like that community building,like that's the phrase, right?
And you said it's work becauseit absolutely is work.
It's absolute effort.
If you don't invest, and I don'tmean financially, if you don't

(01:11:16):
invest time, energy, love,energy, yeah, thoughts any of
that, even just thought into thepeople around you, you cannot
expect it back.
Then you are alone.
And what what other option doyou have than to be selfish?
Well, if you can only look outfor yourself at the end of the
day.

SPEAKER_03 (01:11:32):
Perfect caveat, and it's something I've been really
mulling over, is yeah, they sayit's a you know I've talked
about this, I think, is how theysay it's a loneliness epidemic
for men.
And I think you could apply thisto a lot of people.
Yeah.
Yeah.
You know, that's the big thing.
It's a loneliness epidemic formen.
I think it's an isolationepidemic.
It absolutely is.

SPEAKER_01 (01:11:51):
I absolutely think so.
It absolutely is.

SPEAKER_02 (01:11:57):
To piggyback on what you were saying, the other piece
that I was gonna add to that, Iwas having the same thoughts
with you that I have to lean onsomebody.
It's a w it's a vulnerability,it's a weakness.
The other piece of it is goingback to that accountability
piece.
I have to that you failed.
Recognize I have to accept thisis a problem.
I have to see it as a problem,and I have to accept it as a

(01:12:18):
problem, but it's much easier toignore it and not work on it.
Yeah, because it's gonna takeeffort.
So it's like, you know,discomfort, especially.
I've been in my I've been inpositions where I'm like, cool,
another bill.
We'll just hide that somewhere.
We'll just put that somewhere.
It doesn't make it go away.
No, you know, but most peopledon't want to take the effort

(01:12:41):
and don't want to do the effortto do handle the things and deal
with the things.
And I'm putting myself in thiscategory too.
Same here.
That they don't want to dealwith the things because it's
hard.
Right.
It's gonna show shortcomings,it's gonna be vulnerable, it's
gonna require assistance fromother people.
It's a it's the gamut ofeverything.
Kind of everything.

SPEAKER_03 (01:12:59):
Yeah.
With like therapy and the wayit's going to do.
And it's it's exactly on kind ofsome of this.
It's about comfort rather thanactually going through and
understanding the why and thereasoning behind things.
It's more about, well, what'smake you comfortable?
It's a band-aid fix.
It's a band-aid fix.
Instead of building capacity tohandle difficulty.

(01:13:23):
Right.
A lot of us don't have capacity.
That's what we all need todevelop.
And and that's where thechallenge lies.
So, my God, I think we'vecovered the universe.
Pretty much.
But thank you so much for forjoining us.
It's been a blast.
My God, guys.
Will you come back?
Absolutely.

(01:13:43):
I would love to come back.
All right, guys.
Well, uh, this is Bottom Hui,beat the mental health out of
it.
You got Nick, Tony, Jeff, andMike here, and I'm sure they'll
be back.
And if they don't want to be,we're gonna have to get Carl to
go kidnap them for us.
So, anyway, thanks for joiningus.
Um, and stay tuned for more.