In this episode of Beautifully Complex, I’m joined by Dr. Matt Zakreski, who shares compelling strategies from his new book, "Neurodiversity Playbook." We discuss how important it is to create a neuro-affirming environment that celebrates authenticity while equipping our kids with the social skills to thrive in a neurotypical world. You’ll learn how to replace the worry of 'fitting in' with the confidence of 'standing out' in their own unique way.
You'll gain step-by-step guidance on helping your child build a supportive community, fostering emotional growth while also growing their confidence and competence. With practical advice, we'll show you how to make those unspoken rules of social interaction more visible to level the playing field, ensuring your child feels safe, understood, and empowered.
Tune in for a warm and supportive conversation that ensures you're not alone on this journey. Together, we'll foster a sense of hope and possibility, offering actionable tips to help your neurodivergent child crack the code of a complex world. Listen now and take the first step towards building a brighter future for your family.
Become a supporter of this podcast: https://www.spreaker.com/podcast/beautifully-complex--6137613/support.
You'll gain step-by-step guidance on helping your child build a supportive community, fostering emotional growth while also growing their confidence and competence. With practical advice, we'll show you how to make those unspoken rules of social interaction more visible to level the playing field, ensuring your child feels safe, understood, and empowered.
Tune in for a warm and supportive conversation that ensures you're not alone on this journey. Together, we'll foster a sense of hope and possibility, offering actionable tips to help your neurodivergent child crack the code of a complex world. Listen now and take the first step towards building a brighter future for your family.
Become a supporter of this podcast: https://www.spreaker.com/podcast/beautifully-complex--6137613/support.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:03):
Everybody had this meeting on how to act in middle school.
I didn't go to the meeting. I don't know how
to act in middle school. And it's not fair that
everybody else is playing by a different playbooks than me.
It feels like everyone was playing chess and I was
playing checkers, which was ironic because I was playing chess
in middle school right. So to me, I can't make
the world more fair, but I can make those unspoken
things spoken, so at least we're leveling the playing field.
Speaker 2 (00:30):
Welcome to the Beautifully Complex Podcast, where I share insights
and strategies on parenting neurodivergent kids, straight from the trenches.
I'm your host, Penny Williams. I'm a parenting coach, author
and mindset mama, honored to guide you on the journey
of raising your atypical kid. Let's get started. Welcome back
(00:53):
to Beautifully Complex, everybody. I am really excited to have
doctor Matt Zakresky back with us for a second time
on the podcast to talk about his new book, which
is Neurodiversity Playbook. I'm so excited about this book because
we need to be more neuro affirming. We need for
(01:15):
the world to understand the neurodivergent kids and adults that
are around every one of us. Right, there's so many
neurodvergent people. But start doctor Matt by introducing yourself and
let everybody know who you are and what you do.
Speaker 1 (01:31):
So I'm doctor Matt Secreski. Everybody calls me doctor Matt.
I'm a clinical psychologist and professional speaker and podcast host
and most importantly published author, which never gets never gets
tiring to say, that's for sure. And this book has
sort of been a long time gestating. But I called
(01:52):
Mollie Isaac's McLoud over at a Gift and Unlimited last year,
actually around this time last year, and I said, Molly,
I'm doing all these states conferences in the fall, and
I never have a book to sell. I never anything
to sell. Like, how I should have a thing. It's like,
what would I need to do to have a book
ready to be available to these things. Then she goes like, well,
you need to have it done by June twenty third.
(02:14):
I'm like, great, give me five months to do something
impossible and I'll do it. Because that's the problem with
the you know, the gifted ADHD brain. It's just like
if you give me no time frame, I'll never do
it right, right, I'm just like I have to, like,
you know. So I worked at it, and I had
my I transcribed a bunch of my talks so I
would have like a lot of sort of grist for
(02:35):
the mill, and I built all that stuff in and
then then I looked at just the transcriptions of the talks.
I'm like, there's no through line, there's no narrative, right,
So I sort of went back to formula, and I
realized that as a neurodivergent person, I've always struggled with
(02:55):
feeling out of sync to the rest of the world. Right,
how come everybody knows what to do and I don't
know what to do? Did they have some meeting? Was
there an email I was left off of? And you know,
it felt like they had the code and I didn't
have the code. So that became the through line metaphor
of the book. It's like, let's crack this code, right,
(03:18):
And it sort of winds to this idea that I
don't because you know, when I was posting about what
the my book was online, this woman jumped into my
comments and she's like, I don't want to see another
book that encourages nerdi virgin people to mask and sell
out who they are, and you're writing another book it's
doing that, And this is actually the conclusion chapter of
(03:40):
the book. I was like, am I doing that? No?
Maybe I don't think so. But then I realized that
I think instead of asking neurodivigent people to pretend to
be a neurotypical, I'm pushing the idea of code switching. Right.
You know, I feel very comfortable with you, Penny, right,
so like I can be a little like my quirkier,
(04:02):
more you know, neurospicy self in this space. But if
I'm meeting with like a superintendent and they're like, we
need you to come and do several thousand dollars worth
of PD in our district, I'm gonna be like, yes, look,
how neurotypical I am. I am wearing a tie, I
am very formal, I'm not fidgeting at all, small talk
about sports team good. Right, But then I get my car, right,
(04:28):
You've got it. Like, code switching is a social skill,
it's a survival skill, right, And I think it speaks
to sort of the practical nature of interpersonal communication. But
I also think it's very pragmatic which I think speaks
to a lot of neurodivergent people. You don't have to
do this all the time, but here's how to do
it when you need it. And the feedback we've gotten
(04:49):
has been really amazing and people are like, that is
exactly what I needed, and like, you gave me a
lot of concrete steps to take a lot of personal reflection.
You made it accessible to do this thing, and I'm
pretty proud of that.
Speaker 2 (05:05):
Awesome yeah, And it strikes me, you know, I had
this conversation with somebody recently and I don't remember who.
It might have been one of my kids. But we
all change our forward facing persona in different environments and
under different expectations, So even neurotypical people. You know, I
(05:25):
was a real estate broker for a long time before
I was able to do this work full time, and
when I would meet a new client, you know, I
had this real estate broker hat, right, and that's how
I show up. And then if I'm at home with
a friend, then I'm much more casual and maybe tell
personal stories right where I might not do that in
another time. So I know that masking is a very
(05:48):
real issue, but there is some as you're saying, there
is some of this sort of code switching, that's what
you're calling it, right, code switching that we all do.
And so I really appreciate that you are outlining that
in the book for people so that they understand that
everybody is expected to not change how do we say this,
(06:13):
not change who they are, how they appear, but show
up in a way that fits the environment in the situation.
Does that make sense?
Speaker 1 (06:22):
I think that's the right way to do it. And
like nerd divergent people tend to be what we call
in psychology very context independent, like the way you are
all the time. And in many ways that's awesome and
it's a great authenticity piece, but there are times where
being context dependent is actually a really good thing. You know.
(06:45):
The example I haveven us with my clients, right is like,
so if you're dating, you know, if you're dating somebody
and like you get some alone time with your significant other,
I expect you to be acting a very particular way, right,
But if that person's parents' home and you have to
make the small talk with the parents, I expect you
to adapt your behavior to this new environment. Right, And
(07:08):
with teens that that that always tracks right. It's like, ah, yes,
the or home time done. Yes, I very upstanding young citizen.
Take your code sir, right, And so we all do
it to an extent, but it's like, let's be intentional
about it. But if you're doing so in a way
(07:28):
that's aligned with your neurotype and you're understanding why someone
might need to do this in different situations, I think
it makes it feel more authentic. It feels more intentional
because I think neurodivergent people crave authenticity, right, And so
much of the challenge with masking and code switching in
general is like, I don't want to be inauthentic. Right.
(07:51):
If I'm somebody who doesn't cry at funerals, I shouldn't
have to cry at a funeral to show that I'm sad.
And that's absolutely true, but let's not overcorrect and show
and jeans and a T shirt, you know, and like
listening to loud like you know, Carl XCX at the funeral,
like that is also not appropriate. Right, So there's that
middle ground, And you know, I'm fond of saying in
(08:12):
the therapy space, like we always seek third door solutions.
If door one is I don't change at all door
two is I changed completely. The third door is what's
enough change to achieve compromise, And that's where we're trying.
That's what we're trying to do.
Speaker 2 (08:29):
So how do we get intentional about helping neurodiversent kids
be authentic but also have success in a neurotypical world?
Speaker 1 (08:43):
You know, one of the things that I say to
people often is that eighty percent of the world is neurotypical.
The world is built for them and buy them. Right.
So I can't write a book for neurotypical people on
how to treat neurodivision people better because they're not going
to read it. You know, as we build up this movement,
as we create that critical mass, we're having more conversations,
(09:05):
more neurodivergent, affirming conversations, and I think we're starting to
see it happened in more places. But I've got a
lead with skill set for this community as we rise
in number and awareness and power. Frankly, you know, so
I think naming the rules of the game help us
(09:27):
play better because you know, we know that neurodivigent people
tend a very strong sense of justice. Right, it's not fair.
I won't do it. Yes, and a lot of that
unfairness was, you know, to go back to the original idea,
It's like everybody had this meeting on how to act
in middle school. I didn't go to the meeting. I
don't know how to act in middle school. And it's
not fair that everybody else is playing by a different
(09:50):
playbook than me. It feels like everyone was playing chess
and I was playing checkers, which was ironic because I
was playing chess in middle school, right, So to me,
I can't make the world more fair, but I can
make those unspoken things spoken, So at least we're leveling
the playing field. And then I think people feel like, Okay,
(10:10):
I may like the game, but at least now I
know the rules of the game, and I will do
my best to play it.
Speaker 2 (10:16):
Yeah, And how do we help our kids define those rules?
Because our instinct as a neurotypical parent is to try
to help our kids fit, right, because that feels like
the solution when they don't fit because they're in a
system that isn't built for them or a world that
isn't built for them. But that's not the solution, that's
(10:38):
not a good answer, that's masking, right, And so how
do we help them set up the rules of the
game that are neuroaffirming and are true to their authentic selves,
but also help them to achieve success. How do we
(10:59):
figure out, even like kid by kid, where that is?
Where do we start?
Speaker 1 (11:03):
So I think it's that intersection between what are the
spaces that you feel best in and how much access
can we give you to those spaces and people. So
one of the examples I talked about in the book was,
you know, in high school, I played you know, varsity
soccer and I did musical theater. So I was like,
(11:24):
I lived in two worlds. I was. I was, you know,
the prototypical Finn Hudson from Glee, except Finn can't dance
and I can dance and Fin can sing, but I
couldn't sing, so you know, it's fine. And I would
be on the bus to away games. I have my
discmand because it was the nineties, and I would be
listening to Broadway mixes and living in terror that if
any of the other guys on the soccer team found
(11:46):
out about that, they would have road mob butt forever.
They would have never let me hear the end of it. Yeah,
So the context independent neurodivergent person to me is like,
that's right, I'll play my Jesus Christ Superstar as loud
as I am. Well please, But that's that's authentic, but
it's also dangerous and I don't want to sit there
(12:07):
and make a kid pretend to love, you know, Biggie
Smalls if they don't love Biggie Smalls. Right, So the
middle ground is like, how do you do the best
version of you in that space? And then how do
I give you spaces that are more affirming? Because then
I could show up a theater rehearsal and be like,
oh my god, guys, I just heard the best remix
of XYZ song and that was affirmed and valued, and
(12:30):
I felt comfortable with those people. So what the research
shows is if you give a neurodivergent person a space
where they feel comfortable, they can be as close to
their authentic self as possible. Then the knowledge of that space,
it's like playing tag and knowing there's base right, like
it changes how you feel about the circumstance. It allows
(12:51):
you regulate your emotions, especially your anxiety. If you know
there is a safe place you can return to right
and to echo what you said before. Sometimes we are
the safe space for our kids, Like we're the only
safe space they have and that will carry them forward
for a while. But we need to give them community spaces,
whether it's gifted kid club or you know, e sports
(13:15):
or cty one of the gifts at summer camps. Maybe
it's finding a school that works when they're diversent kids. Right,
one of my kids that I work with, you know,
we've just enrolled him in Fusion Academy and it's just
the best possible fit for his neurotype. Right. He just
feels more affirmed in that space.
Speaker 2 (13:35):
So it's amazing.
Speaker 1 (13:37):
You know. People will often say to me as a therapist, like, well,
should my kids see you more for therapy? And I'm like,
the best things we can do for these kids is
actually an environmental intervention, way more so than just doing
more therapy, right, because we want the spaces that our
kids find ourselves in to fill their cups, right, not
(13:58):
drain them. And the more those spaces we find, the happier,
more regulated kids you're going to.
Speaker 2 (14:02):
Have mm hmm.
Speaker 1 (14:04):
Right.
Speaker 2 (14:04):
So if they don't find their community, then they're going
to need a lot of therapy for a long time, right.
But finding their community means that they're with their people
and they feel good about who they are and they
are just having a better time in the world. Right.
And what keeps coming to mind for me as you're
talking is a sense of felt safety, Like you were
(14:26):
describing on the bus with the other guys on your
soccer team, You're listening to musicals, and you didn't feel
socially safe for them to find out that you were
listening to musicals, right, And so you were taking an
action that made you feel safer in that environment. And
(14:48):
so often I think we forget about focusing on that
felt safety, that social safety, that mental safety, emotional safety.
And you know, even when we are trying to push
for fitting, we're actually making them feel less safe in
those ways.
Speaker 1 (15:08):
Right, absolutely, And like one of the things that we
need to also, it's one of the hardest things for
us to manage his parents, is that like we can
overcorrect on safety as well, Like if our kids always
feel safe, then actually we're not inoculating them to the world,
because the world is challenging at best and unsafe at worst. Right. Yeah,
(15:33):
you know, like I was about the line from Finding
Nemo where you know, Dori says tomorrow and like well,
if nothing ever happens to him, nothing's ever going to
happen to him. And that is the I mean, that
is the absolute truth. Right. I'm not saying those bus
rides were pleasant, but it did teach me some important lessons, right,
And I think parceling out the right amount of challenge
(15:55):
to our kids becomes increasingly our job as parents. It's
like safety matters, but safety plus growth is where it
is what we're headed. Right, Yes, yeah, Like you could
lock your kid in the basement and make them homeschool
and they never see anybody, you turn off the internet, like, yeah,
they will be very safe. They will also not be
(16:16):
a functional adult, right, and preasingly if you talk to educators,
we're seeing kids who are teens, but not functionally teens, right.
Teens who don't know how to tie their shoes, kids
who don't know how to send an email, you know,
kids who burst out crying in the hallway at school
because they're going to be one minute late to class
because they've never developed the resiliency skills to manage those moments. Right.
(16:41):
Life is unpleasant. We can't run from that. We want
to find places that we can feel pleasant and give
us the tools to manage the unpleasantness when it shows up.
Speaker 2 (16:51):
Yeah, and thank you so much for saying we can
overcorrect with safety or protection because I was definitely that
parent for a very long time until I learned that
I over correcting and that if kids don't have to
go through hard things, they don't learn how to go
through hard things, and they tend to try to avoid
them when you do that. So it's super important not
(17:13):
to ever correct. I love that challenge and safety and
also growth, like those three things need to be in balance.
Can we talk a little bit about how to help
our kids find their community because I talk to so
(17:35):
many parents who struggle with this because when they go
to school, they're put in a room randomly with a
set of kids. They tend to see those kids more
than other kids, and so they haven't really found their
people in an organic way. So how do we help
them make those connections?
Speaker 1 (17:55):
Oh? Boy, that's the question, right. It's a big one, right,
and for some big questions. So what I tell parents
all the time is lead with interests, right, Like, one
of the mistakes we make as parents is that we
assume our kids will like the same things that we like,
or they will engage in in those things the same
(18:17):
way that we did. You know, I grew up playing
a lot of recreational sports in my town, like I played,
you know, rec basketball, rec baseball, rec soccer, you know,
rec hockey, and here in the town that I live
in now, the rex sports situation is a lot different
than in my town. It's a little bit more competitive,
and it's harder to break into and like, frankly, it's
(18:39):
not the right fit for my kids right now. May
they get into it someday, maybe I don't know, I'd
like them too, right, But I'm not raising a little Matt.
I'm raising my kid who has some of me in it,
but also some of my wife, in a very different situation,
in a very different town, in a very different time
in human history. So if you're it tells you I
(19:01):
want to build websites, well, then let's find them a
coding club. You know, if your kid wants to live
action role play, or if they're going to be a LARPer,
then we find LARPing. Right. You know, behavior is communication.
When kids show us what they like, that is a
window into meeting them, into getting to know their soul. Right,
(19:22):
And that's how we're going to really connect with them
and find those communities. And it's amazing how often parents
will be like, my kid really loves minecraft, so I
want them to be a boy scout. It's like, I
don't necessarily see how those things connect, right, you know, No,
it's important to not just blindly do what if our
kids tell us to. But you know, if our kids
(19:45):
are telling us something, what's the version of that we
can find for them, because that's often where we're going
to see the best growth.
Speaker 2 (19:52):
M I have this conversation around gaming so often with
parents too. All my kid wants to do is game,
be online, be on a computer. Okay, well, how do
we expand on that if that's their interest. There's a
million ways to expand on that. There's coding, there's art,
there's ux design right, designing a game, designing the experience
(20:14):
of the game, there's electronics classes, there's like, there's a
million ways that you could expand on that and make
the time more practical or whatever we're trying to do
with the gaming thing with our kids. But they're saying,
this is where I feel comfortable, This is where I
(20:35):
feel competent, this is where I feel confident. So how
do we bring that into other parts of life? Right?
Is that what you're saying?
Speaker 1 (20:44):
Absolutely? You know, and you said two of my favorite words,
competent and confident.
Speaker 2 (20:49):
Right, I mean everything.
Speaker 1 (20:51):
You know, if your kid got invited to a pool
party and they ain't know how to swim, it would
be hard for them to feel confident at the pool
party because they don't have the competent to swim. So
we can either build our kids confidence or we can
build their competence. But it's cool that one will influence
the other. And you know, social skills are a skill set.
(21:15):
They are a thing you can become more competent at.
So you know, the more we lean into that and
we put kids into spaces, they're going to build those
skills resiliency, communication, frustration, tolerance, grit, all those great soft skills,
then they're going to be able to navigate more situations.
And you look back at your kid and like, my
(21:35):
kid's handling thing today that they could not have handled
three years ago. And that's our job. That's what we
are trying to get our kids to do. Right. You know,
my kids are really strong swimmers. You know, probably this
summer at the pool, we won't have to have a
little string that's like here's the deep end, here's the
shallow end. Right. But we brought them along intentionally to
(21:56):
this place, right, We're not just saying, ah, you're older now,
you can probably swim right, right. And so much of
this echoes the neurodivergent journey because we do develop asynchroneously. Right,
So a lot of the you know, the expectations for
a kid's age, Well, a ten year old should be
able to do this. Well, this ten year old is
doing particle physics in their spare time, but it's still
(22:18):
struggling to tie their shoes and can't catch the ball
in gym class. They're not a typical ten year old.
So we need to meet that ten year old at
all the spaces of their life to give them the
best interventions to move forward. M.
Speaker 2 (22:32):
Yeah, and sometimes it's not trying to bring them up
to age level in different skills or whatever. Sometimes they
need more challenge beyond their age group. You know, a
lot of our neurodivergent kids are twice exceptional, and so
they need challenge of thinking and things like that. But
(22:53):
then they can also need special and support and learning
support that can happen in the same kid, and it
does very often. What else do we need to know
about the Neurodiversity Playbook?
Speaker 1 (23:08):
You know, I think the thing that really drives me
up a wall when I read these books, and it's
the same thing that drives me up a wall when
I go to conferences and professional develop things, is that
if you give me uninformed practice, it's like, well, just
do this, Well, why should I do this? What's the
research behind it, what's the theory? Tell me why it works?
Or you get all theory, no suggestions, feature sold else.
(23:31):
I'm like, let's say I've seen all the theory, all
the presentations. Just tell me something that works. Give me
a thing I can do with my kids. Right. So, yeah,
you know what we tried to do with the playbook,
and that the reason I decided to call it the
playbook was that it's filled with practical things that you
can do at home, you can do in your community,
(23:51):
you can do with your family. These are things like
tangible skills that you can practice and bring into the world.
I have a whole section on there on how to
do small talk right, not just hey, just get more
comfortable with it, right, right, It's like, so much of
the advice here is like, have you tried not being anxious? Like, well,
golly gee, if that was an option, I wouldn't need
(24:12):
my job. So I think what we're doing here is,
you know, like, here's what small tuck is, here's how
to do it effectively, and here's how to move on
with your life if it doesn't work out. You know,
because I have been described several times in my professional
roles as aggressively pragmatic. And this is where being aggressively
pragmatic works for me, because I'm like, hey, kids, as
(24:34):
long as it works and I can give you a
justification for doing it, let's do it. And there's something
really powerful about being able to say to somebody, yeah,
I got you, I can help you do this thing. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (24:47):
I think there's something powerful too about saying if you
never quite get it, it's okay, yeah, right, Like we
need that. And I think neuroti virgin or anybody who
has difference as needs that ex uptence of who they are.
Let's give them the code to navigate with success. But
(25:07):
also the I'm not going to say permission, the ability
to be who they are, right, that's so important. Can
you tell everybody doctor Matt, where they can find you online,
where they can find the book.
Speaker 1 (25:22):
Yeah, so I have two primary roles, right. So my
therapy practice is the Neurodiversity Collective, and we just hired
some new people. We're seeing more patients. We're very happy
about that. So I would say it's like, if you
think you need me for you as a person, then
that's the Neurodiversity Collective. We will find you a therapist
(25:44):
that works for you. If you think what I'm talking
about in terms of neurodiversity practice and skill set and
culture building makes sense for your organization, then it's doctor
Mat Sucreski dot com. Because I can do all my
song and dance for your organization. It's just a little
bit different than doing it for therapy. And then the
book is available on Amazon and it's also available at
(26:08):
Gifted Unlimited Press dot com. If you punch it in
there you'll see it. You can order it through the website.
And if you happen to come across me in one
of my many travels, whether I'm speaking at a conference
or at one of the various airports I tend to
live in these days, I usually have a couple of
copies on me and I can sell them to you directly.
So oh and we're working on the audiobook too. That's
(26:30):
very exciting because we know our nerdivergent folks love to
let's do an audio book at one and a half
time speed, right. You know my voice always sounds a
little bit like Alvin from the Chipmunks, like yeah, I
mean it's I mean, like, honestly, when it came out,
I said, I just want someone who isn't my dad
to buy this book because I didn't my dad was
(26:52):
going to buy like twenty copies, which he did, of course.
But like having people contact you on social media or
send you an email, it's like I listen to your
podcast and I need to buy your book. How do
I do that. I'm like, bend mo me this amount
of money and I will mail you a book. And
then that happens. Like I'm on a first dame base
with everybody in my post office. Now they're like, oh,
(27:12):
you guys, more books talk about I'm like, I am,
it's weird, but I really believe we've created something good
here and people have been so enthusiastic about it. It's
been a privilege to share in that journey, and you
know I'm going to ride that way for as long
as I can. I suppose m hmm.
Speaker 2 (27:31):
You're doing such great work and I appreciate it so much.
You're changing lives and helping ner divergent folks and it's
really important stuff. I'm going to link everything you just
said up in the show notes for folks so it'll
be easy access at PARENTINGNHD and Autism dot com Slash
three zero one for episode three hundred and one, and
(27:53):
I will see everybody on the next episode and take
good care. Thanks for joining me on the Beautifully Complex podcast.
If you enjoyed this episode, please subscribe and share, and
don't forget to check out my online courses and parent
coaching at PARENTINGADHD and Autism dot com and at The
Behavior Revolution dot com.
Everybody had this meeting on how to act in middle school.
I didn't go to the meeting. I don't know how
to act in middle school. And it's not fair that
everybody else is playing by a different playbooks than me.
It feels like everyone was playing chess and I was
playing checkers, which was ironic because I was playing chess
in middle school right. So to me, I can't make
the world more fair, but I can make those unspoken
things spoken, so at least we're leveling the playing field.
Speaker 2 (00:30):
Welcome to the Beautifully Complex Podcast, where I share insights
and strategies on parenting neurodivergent kids, straight from the trenches.
I'm your host, Penny Williams. I'm a parenting coach, author
and mindset mama, honored to guide you on the journey
of raising your atypical kid. Let's get started. Welcome back
(00:53):
to Beautifully Complex, everybody. I am really excited to have
doctor Matt Zakresky back with us for a second time
on the podcast to talk about his new book, which
is Neurodiversity Playbook. I'm so excited about this book because
we need to be more neuro affirming. We need for
(01:15):
the world to understand the neurodivergent kids and adults that
are around every one of us. Right, there's so many
neurodvergent people. But start doctor Matt by introducing yourself and
let everybody know who you are and what you do.
Speaker 1 (01:31):
So I'm doctor Matt Secreski. Everybody calls me doctor Matt.
I'm a clinical psychologist and professional speaker and podcast host
and most importantly published author, which never gets never gets
tiring to say, that's for sure. And this book has
sort of been a long time gestating. But I called
(01:52):
Mollie Isaac's McLoud over at a Gift and Unlimited last year,
actually around this time last year, and I said, Molly,
I'm doing all these states conferences in the fall, and
I never have a book to sell. I never anything
to sell. Like, how I should have a thing. It's like,
what would I need to do to have a book
ready to be available to these things. Then she goes like, well,
you need to have it done by June twenty third.
(02:14):
I'm like, great, give me five months to do something
impossible and I'll do it. Because that's the problem with
the you know, the gifted ADHD brain. It's just like
if you give me no time frame, I'll never do
it right, right, I'm just like I have to, like,
you know. So I worked at it, and I had
my I transcribed a bunch of my talks so I
would have like a lot of sort of grist for
(02:35):
the mill, and I built all that stuff in and
then then I looked at just the transcriptions of the talks.
I'm like, there's no through line, there's no narrative, right,
So I sort of went back to formula, and I
realized that as a neurodivergent person, I've always struggled with
(02:55):
feeling out of sync to the rest of the world. Right,
how come everybody knows what to do and I don't
know what to do? Did they have some meeting? Was
there an email I was left off of? And you know,
it felt like they had the code and I didn't
have the code. So that became the through line metaphor
of the book. It's like, let's crack this code, right,
(03:18):
And it sort of winds to this idea that I
don't because you know, when I was posting about what
the my book was online, this woman jumped into my
comments and she's like, I don't want to see another
book that encourages nerdi virgin people to mask and sell
out who they are, and you're writing another book it's
doing that, And this is actually the conclusion chapter of
(03:40):
the book. I was like, am I doing that? No?
Maybe I don't think so. But then I realized that
I think instead of asking neurodivigent people to pretend to
be a neurotypical, I'm pushing the idea of code switching. Right.
You know, I feel very comfortable with you, Penny, right,
so like I can be a little like my quirkier,
(04:02):
more you know, neurospicy self in this space. But if
I'm meeting with like a superintendent and they're like, we
need you to come and do several thousand dollars worth
of PD in our district, I'm gonna be like, yes, look,
how neurotypical I am. I am wearing a tie, I
am very formal, I'm not fidgeting at all, small talk
about sports team good. Right, But then I get my car, right,
(04:28):
You've got it. Like, code switching is a social skill,
it's a survival skill, right, And I think it speaks
to sort of the practical nature of interpersonal communication. But
I also think it's very pragmatic which I think speaks
to a lot of neurodivergent people. You don't have to
do this all the time, but here's how to do
it when you need it. And the feedback we've gotten
(04:49):
has been really amazing and people are like, that is
exactly what I needed, and like, you gave me a
lot of concrete steps to take a lot of personal reflection.
You made it accessible to do this thing, and I'm
pretty proud of that.
Speaker 2 (05:05):
Awesome yeah, And it strikes me, you know, I had
this conversation with somebody recently and I don't remember who.
It might have been one of my kids. But we
all change our forward facing persona in different environments and
under different expectations, So even neurotypical people. You know, I
(05:25):
was a real estate broker for a long time before
I was able to do this work full time, and
when I would meet a new client, you know, I
had this real estate broker hat, right, and that's how
I show up. And then if I'm at home with
a friend, then I'm much more casual and maybe tell
personal stories right where I might not do that in
another time. So I know that masking is a very
(05:48):
real issue, but there is some as you're saying, there
is some of this sort of code switching, that's what
you're calling it, right, code switching that we all do.
And so I really appreciate that you are outlining that
in the book for people so that they understand that
everybody is expected to not change how do we say this,
(06:13):
not change who they are, how they appear, but show
up in a way that fits the environment in the situation.
Does that make sense?
Speaker 1 (06:22):
I think that's the right way to do it. And
like nerd divergent people tend to be what we call
in psychology very context independent, like the way you are
all the time. And in many ways that's awesome and
it's a great authenticity piece, but there are times where
being context dependent is actually a really good thing. You know.
(06:45):
The example I haveven us with my clients, right is like,
so if you're dating, you know, if you're dating somebody
and like you get some alone time with your significant other,
I expect you to be acting a very particular way, right,
But if that person's parents' home and you have to
make the small talk with the parents, I expect you
to adapt your behavior to this new environment. Right, And
(07:08):
with teens that that that always tracks right. It's like, ah, yes,
the or home time done. Yes, I very upstanding young citizen.
Take your code sir, right, And so we all do
it to an extent, but it's like, let's be intentional
about it. But if you're doing so in a way
(07:28):
that's aligned with your neurotype and you're understanding why someone
might need to do this in different situations, I think
it makes it feel more authentic. It feels more intentional
because I think neurodivergent people crave authenticity, right, And so
much of the challenge with masking and code switching in
general is like, I don't want to be inauthentic. Right.
(07:51):
If I'm somebody who doesn't cry at funerals, I shouldn't
have to cry at a funeral to show that I'm sad.
And that's absolutely true, but let's not overcorrect and show
and jeans and a T shirt, you know, and like
listening to loud like you know, Carl XCX at the funeral,
like that is also not appropriate. Right, So there's that
middle ground, And you know, I'm fond of saying in
(08:12):
the therapy space, like we always seek third door solutions.
If door one is I don't change at all door
two is I changed completely. The third door is what's
enough change to achieve compromise, And that's where we're trying.
That's what we're trying to do.
Speaker 2 (08:29):
So how do we get intentional about helping neurodiversent kids
be authentic but also have success in a neurotypical world?
Speaker 1 (08:43):
You know, one of the things that I say to
people often is that eighty percent of the world is neurotypical.
The world is built for them and buy them. Right.
So I can't write a book for neurotypical people on
how to treat neurodivision people better because they're not going
to read it. You know, as we build up this movement,
as we create that critical mass, we're having more conversations,
(09:05):
more neurodivergent, affirming conversations, and I think we're starting to
see it happened in more places. But I've got a
lead with skill set for this community as we rise
in number and awareness and power. Frankly, you know, so
I think naming the rules of the game help us
(09:27):
play better because you know, we know that neurodivigent people
tend a very strong sense of justice. Right, it's not fair.
I won't do it. Yes, and a lot of that
unfairness was, you know, to go back to the original idea,
It's like everybody had this meeting on how to act
in middle school. I didn't go to the meeting. I
don't know how to act in middle school. And it's
not fair that everybody else is playing by a different
(09:50):
playbook than me. It feels like everyone was playing chess
and I was playing checkers, which was ironic because I
was playing chess in middle school, right, So to me,
I can't make the world more fair, but I can
make those unspoken things spoken, So at least we're leveling
the playing field. And then I think people feel like, Okay,
(10:10):
I may like the game, but at least now I
know the rules of the game, and I will do
my best to play it.
Speaker 2 (10:16):
Yeah, And how do we help our kids define those rules?
Because our instinct as a neurotypical parent is to try
to help our kids fit, right, because that feels like
the solution when they don't fit because they're in a
system that isn't built for them or a world that
isn't built for them. But that's not the solution, that's
(10:38):
not a good answer, that's masking, right, And so how
do we help them set up the rules of the
game that are neuroaffirming and are true to their authentic selves,
but also help them to achieve success. How do we
(10:59):
figure out, even like kid by kid, where that is?
Where do we start?
Speaker 1 (11:03):
So I think it's that intersection between what are the
spaces that you feel best in and how much access
can we give you to those spaces and people. So
one of the examples I talked about in the book was,
you know, in high school, I played you know, varsity
soccer and I did musical theater. So I was like,
(11:24):
I lived in two worlds. I was. I was, you know,
the prototypical Finn Hudson from Glee, except Finn can't dance
and I can dance and Fin can sing, but I
couldn't sing, so you know, it's fine. And I would
be on the bus to away games. I have my
discmand because it was the nineties, and I would be
listening to Broadway mixes and living in terror that if
any of the other guys on the soccer team found
(11:46):
out about that, they would have road mob butt forever.
They would have never let me hear the end of it. Yeah,
So the context independent neurodivergent person to me is like,
that's right, I'll play my Jesus Christ Superstar as loud
as I am. Well please, But that's that's authentic, but
it's also dangerous and I don't want to sit there
(12:07):
and make a kid pretend to love, you know, Biggie
Smalls if they don't love Biggie Smalls. Right, So the
middle ground is like, how do you do the best
version of you in that space? And then how do
I give you spaces that are more affirming? Because then
I could show up a theater rehearsal and be like,
oh my god, guys, I just heard the best remix
of XYZ song and that was affirmed and valued, and
(12:30):
I felt comfortable with those people. So what the research
shows is if you give a neurodivergent person a space
where they feel comfortable, they can be as close to
their authentic self as possible. Then the knowledge of that space,
it's like playing tag and knowing there's base right, like
it changes how you feel about the circumstance. It allows
(12:51):
you regulate your emotions, especially your anxiety. If you know
there is a safe place you can return to right
and to echo what you said before. Sometimes we are
the safe space for our kids, Like we're the only
safe space they have and that will carry them forward
for a while. But we need to give them community spaces,
whether it's gifted kid club or you know, e sports
(13:15):
or cty one of the gifts at summer camps. Maybe
it's finding a school that works when they're diversent kids. Right,
one of my kids that I work with, you know,
we've just enrolled him in Fusion Academy and it's just
the best possible fit for his neurotype. Right. He just
feels more affirmed in that space.
Speaker 2 (13:35):
So it's amazing.
Speaker 1 (13:37):
You know. People will often say to me as a therapist, like, well,
should my kids see you more for therapy? And I'm like,
the best things we can do for these kids is
actually an environmental intervention, way more so than just doing
more therapy, right, because we want the spaces that our
kids find ourselves in to fill their cups, right, not
(13:58):
drain them. And the more those spaces we find, the happier,
more regulated kids you're going to.
Speaker 2 (14:02):
Have mm hmm.
Speaker 1 (14:04):
Right.
Speaker 2 (14:04):
So if they don't find their community, then they're going
to need a lot of therapy for a long time, right.
But finding their community means that they're with their people
and they feel good about who they are and they
are just having a better time in the world. Right.
And what keeps coming to mind for me as you're
talking is a sense of felt safety, Like you were
(14:26):
describing on the bus with the other guys on your
soccer team, You're listening to musicals, and you didn't feel
socially safe for them to find out that you were
listening to musicals, right, And so you were taking an
action that made you feel safer in that environment. And
(14:48):
so often I think we forget about focusing on that
felt safety, that social safety, that mental safety, emotional safety.
And you know, even when we are trying to push
for fitting, we're actually making them feel less safe in
those ways.
Speaker 1 (15:08):
Right, absolutely, And like one of the things that we
need to also, it's one of the hardest things for
us to manage his parents, is that like we can
overcorrect on safety as well, Like if our kids always
feel safe, then actually we're not inoculating them to the world,
because the world is challenging at best and unsafe at worst. Right. Yeah,
(15:33):
you know, like I was about the line from Finding
Nemo where you know, Dori says tomorrow and like well,
if nothing ever happens to him, nothing's ever going to
happen to him. And that is the I mean, that
is the absolute truth. Right. I'm not saying those bus
rides were pleasant, but it did teach me some important lessons, right,
And I think parceling out the right amount of challenge
(15:55):
to our kids becomes increasingly our job as parents. It's
like safety matters, but safety plus growth is where it
is what we're headed. Right, Yes, yeah, Like you could
lock your kid in the basement and make them homeschool
and they never see anybody, you turn off the internet, like, yeah,
they will be very safe. They will also not be
(16:16):
a functional adult, right, and preasingly if you talk to educators,
we're seeing kids who are teens, but not functionally teens, right.
Teens who don't know how to tie their shoes, kids
who don't know how to send an email, you know,
kids who burst out crying in the hallway at school
because they're going to be one minute late to class
because they've never developed the resiliency skills to manage those moments. Right.
(16:41):
Life is unpleasant. We can't run from that. We want
to find places that we can feel pleasant and give
us the tools to manage the unpleasantness when it shows up.
Speaker 2 (16:51):
Yeah, and thank you so much for saying we can
overcorrect with safety or protection because I was definitely that
parent for a very long time until I learned that
I over correcting and that if kids don't have to
go through hard things, they don't learn how to go
through hard things, and they tend to try to avoid
them when you do that. So it's super important not
(17:13):
to ever correct. I love that challenge and safety and
also growth, like those three things need to be in balance.
Can we talk a little bit about how to help
our kids find their community because I talk to so
(17:35):
many parents who struggle with this because when they go
to school, they're put in a room randomly with a
set of kids. They tend to see those kids more
than other kids, and so they haven't really found their
people in an organic way. So how do we help
them make those connections?
Speaker 1 (17:55):
Oh? Boy, that's the question, right. It's a big one, right,
and for some big questions. So what I tell parents
all the time is lead with interests, right, Like, one
of the mistakes we make as parents is that we
assume our kids will like the same things that we like,
or they will engage in in those things the same
(18:17):
way that we did. You know, I grew up playing
a lot of recreational sports in my town, like I played,
you know, rec basketball, rec baseball, rec soccer, you know,
rec hockey, and here in the town that I live
in now, the rex sports situation is a lot different
than in my town. It's a little bit more competitive,
and it's harder to break into and like, frankly, it's
(18:39):
not the right fit for my kids right now. May
they get into it someday, maybe I don't know, I'd
like them too, right, But I'm not raising a little Matt.
I'm raising my kid who has some of me in it,
but also some of my wife, in a very different situation,
in a very different town, in a very different time
in human history. So if you're it tells you I
(19:01):
want to build websites, well, then let's find them a
coding club. You know, if your kid wants to live
action role play, or if they're going to be a LARPer,
then we find LARPing. Right. You know, behavior is communication.
When kids show us what they like, that is a
window into meeting them, into getting to know their soul. Right,
(19:22):
And that's how we're going to really connect with them
and find those communities. And it's amazing how often parents
will be like, my kid really loves minecraft, so I
want them to be a boy scout. It's like, I
don't necessarily see how those things connect, right, you know, No,
it's important to not just blindly do what if our
kids tell us to. But you know, if our kids
(19:45):
are telling us something, what's the version of that we
can find for them, because that's often where we're going
to see the best growth.
Speaker 2 (19:52):
M I have this conversation around gaming so often with
parents too. All my kid wants to do is game,
be online, be on a computer. Okay, well, how do
we expand on that if that's their interest. There's a
million ways to expand on that. There's coding, there's art,
there's ux design right, designing a game, designing the experience
(20:14):
of the game, there's electronics classes, there's like, there's a
million ways that you could expand on that and make
the time more practical or whatever we're trying to do
with the gaming thing with our kids. But they're saying,
this is where I feel comfortable, This is where I
(20:35):
feel competent, this is where I feel confident. So how
do we bring that into other parts of life? Right?
Is that what you're saying?
Speaker 1 (20:44):
Absolutely? You know, and you said two of my favorite words,
competent and confident.
Speaker 2 (20:49):
Right, I mean everything.
Speaker 1 (20:51):
You know, if your kid got invited to a pool
party and they ain't know how to swim, it would
be hard for them to feel confident at the pool
party because they don't have the competent to swim. So
we can either build our kids confidence or we can
build their competence. But it's cool that one will influence
the other. And you know, social skills are a skill set.
(21:15):
They are a thing you can become more competent at.
So you know, the more we lean into that and
we put kids into spaces, they're going to build those
skills resiliency, communication, frustration, tolerance, grit, all those great soft skills,
then they're going to be able to navigate more situations.
And you look back at your kid and like, my
(21:35):
kid's handling thing today that they could not have handled
three years ago. And that's our job. That's what we
are trying to get our kids to do. Right. You know,
my kids are really strong swimmers. You know, probably this
summer at the pool, we won't have to have a
little string that's like here's the deep end, here's the
shallow end. Right. But we brought them along intentionally to
(21:56):
this place, right, We're not just saying, ah, you're older now,
you can probably swim right, right. And so much of
this echoes the neurodivergent journey because we do develop asynchroneously. Right,
So a lot of the you know, the expectations for
a kid's age, Well, a ten year old should be
able to do this. Well, this ten year old is
doing particle physics in their spare time, but it's still
(22:18):
struggling to tie their shoes and can't catch the ball
in gym class. They're not a typical ten year old.
So we need to meet that ten year old at
all the spaces of their life to give them the
best interventions to move forward. M.
Speaker 2 (22:32):
Yeah, and sometimes it's not trying to bring them up
to age level in different skills or whatever. Sometimes they
need more challenge beyond their age group. You know, a
lot of our neurodivergent kids are twice exceptional, and so
they need challenge of thinking and things like that. But
(22:53):
then they can also need special and support and learning
support that can happen in the same kid, and it
does very often. What else do we need to know
about the Neurodiversity Playbook?
Speaker 1 (23:08):
You know, I think the thing that really drives me
up a wall when I read these books, and it's
the same thing that drives me up a wall when
I go to conferences and professional develop things, is that
if you give me uninformed practice, it's like, well, just
do this, Well, why should I do this? What's the
research behind it, what's the theory? Tell me why it works?
Or you get all theory, no suggestions, feature sold else.
(23:31):
I'm like, let's say I've seen all the theory, all
the presentations. Just tell me something that works. Give me
a thing I can do with my kids. Right. So, yeah,
you know what we tried to do with the playbook,
and that the reason I decided to call it the
playbook was that it's filled with practical things that you
can do at home, you can do in your community,
(23:51):
you can do with your family. These are things like
tangible skills that you can practice and bring into the world.
I have a whole section on there on how to
do small talk right, not just hey, just get more
comfortable with it, right, right, It's like, so much of
the advice here is like, have you tried not being anxious? Like, well,
golly gee, if that was an option, I wouldn't need
(24:12):
my job. So I think what we're doing here is,
you know, like, here's what small tuck is, here's how
to do it effectively, and here's how to move on
with your life if it doesn't work out. You know,
because I have been described several times in my professional
roles as aggressively pragmatic. And this is where being aggressively
pragmatic works for me, because I'm like, hey, kids, as
(24:34):
long as it works and I can give you a
justification for doing it, let's do it. And there's something
really powerful about being able to say to somebody, yeah,
I got you, I can help you do this thing. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (24:47):
I think there's something powerful too about saying if you
never quite get it, it's okay, yeah, right, Like we
need that. And I think neuroti virgin or anybody who
has difference as needs that ex uptence of who they are.
Let's give them the code to navigate with success. But
(25:07):
also the I'm not going to say permission, the ability
to be who they are, right, that's so important. Can
you tell everybody doctor Matt, where they can find you online,
where they can find the book.
Speaker 1 (25:22):
Yeah, so I have two primary roles, right. So my
therapy practice is the Neurodiversity Collective, and we just hired
some new people. We're seeing more patients. We're very happy
about that. So I would say it's like, if you
think you need me for you as a person, then
that's the Neurodiversity Collective. We will find you a therapist
(25:44):
that works for you. If you think what I'm talking
about in terms of neurodiversity practice and skill set and
culture building makes sense for your organization, then it's doctor
Mat Sucreski dot com. Because I can do all my
song and dance for your organization. It's just a little
bit different than doing it for therapy. And then the
book is available on Amazon and it's also available at
(26:08):
Gifted Unlimited Press dot com. If you punch it in
there you'll see it. You can order it through the website.
And if you happen to come across me in one
of my many travels, whether I'm speaking at a conference
or at one of the various airports I tend to
live in these days, I usually have a couple of
copies on me and I can sell them to you directly.
So oh and we're working on the audiobook too. That's
(26:30):
very exciting because we know our nerdivergent folks love to
let's do an audio book at one and a half
time speed, right. You know my voice always sounds a
little bit like Alvin from the Chipmunks, like yeah, I
mean it's I mean, like, honestly, when it came out,
I said, I just want someone who isn't my dad
to buy this book because I didn't my dad was
(26:52):
going to buy like twenty copies, which he did, of course.
But like having people contact you on social media or
send you an email, it's like I listen to your
podcast and I need to buy your book. How do
I do that. I'm like, bend mo me this amount
of money and I will mail you a book. And
then that happens. Like I'm on a first dame base
with everybody in my post office. Now they're like, oh,
(27:12):
you guys, more books talk about I'm like, I am,
it's weird, but I really believe we've created something good
here and people have been so enthusiastic about it. It's
been a privilege to share in that journey, and you
know I'm going to ride that way for as long
as I can. I suppose m hmm.
Speaker 2 (27:31):
You're doing such great work and I appreciate it so much.
You're changing lives and helping ner divergent folks and it's
really important stuff. I'm going to link everything you just
said up in the show notes for folks so it'll
be easy access at PARENTINGNHD and Autism dot com Slash
three zero one for episode three hundred and one, and
(27:53):
I will see everybody on the next episode and take
good care. Thanks for joining me on the Beautifully Complex podcast.
If you enjoyed this episode, please subscribe and share, and
don't forget to check out my online courses and parent
coaching at PARENTINGADHD and Autism dot com and at The
Behavior Revolution dot com.
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On Purpose with Jay Shetty
I’m Jay Shetty host of On Purpose the worlds #1 Mental Health podcast and I’m so grateful you found us. I started this podcast 5 years ago to invite you into conversations and workshops that are designed to help make you happier, healthier and more healed. I believe that when you (yes you) feel seen, heard and understood you’re able to deal with relationship struggles, work challenges and life’s ups and downs with more ease and grace. I interview experts, celebrities, thought leaders and athletes so that we can grow our mindset, build better habits and uncover a side of them we’ve never seen before. New episodes every Monday and Friday. Your support means the world to me and I don’t take it for granted — click the follow button and leave a review to help us spread the love with On Purpose. I can’t wait for you to listen to your first or 500th episode!