What if we stopped calling kids “attention-seeking” and started calling them “connection-seeking?”
In this heart-opening episode, I sit down with veteran educators and authors Erika Bare and Tiffany Burns to rethink how we approach behavior in schools — especially for neurodivergent kids. From eliminating power struggles to building culture through connection, they break down practical strategies that teachers and parents can use right now to shift from correction to connection.
You’ll hear why traditional behavior charts often do more harm than good, how to “care out loud” in everyday interactions, and what it really means to co-create emotionally safe spaces for all kids. We explore how small changes in mindset and language can spark massive change for kids who struggle.
Whether you’re a parent, teacher, or anyone who works with kids, this episode is a breath of fresh air for modern education.
👉 Tune in and start building the connection-first culture our kids deserve.
You can find additional resources at parentingadhdandautism.com and Regulated Kids.com — because it’s not just about the struggles, it’s about progress, one step at a time.
Show notes and more resources at parentingadhdandautism.com/310
Become a supporter of this podcast: https://www.spreaker.com/podcast/beautifully-complex--6137613/support.
In this heart-opening episode, I sit down with veteran educators and authors Erika Bare and Tiffany Burns to rethink how we approach behavior in schools — especially for neurodivergent kids. From eliminating power struggles to building culture through connection, they break down practical strategies that teachers and parents can use right now to shift from correction to connection.
You’ll hear why traditional behavior charts often do more harm than good, how to “care out loud” in everyday interactions, and what it really means to co-create emotionally safe spaces for all kids. We explore how small changes in mindset and language can spark massive change for kids who struggle.
Whether you’re a parent, teacher, or anyone who works with kids, this episode is a breath of fresh air for modern education.
👉 Tune in and start building the connection-first culture our kids deserve.
You can find additional resources at parentingadhdandautism.com and Regulated Kids.com — because it’s not just about the struggles, it’s about progress, one step at a time.
Show notes and more resources at parentingadhdandautism.com/310
Become a supporter of this podcast: https://www.spreaker.com/podcast/beautifully-complex--6137613/support.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:03):
They're not thinking, Oh gosh, she keeps telling me to
sit up and engage in class and get my paper
turned in. And she's just saying all those things because
she just loves me so much and she really cares
about me. No, that kid thinks we're a nag. That
kid things that were on their case, and that we're
really kind of after them, and they might even think
we don't like them, and that is really really problematic.
Speaker 2 (00:30):
Welcome to the Beautifully Complex podcast, where I share insights
and strategies on parenting neurodivergent kids straight from the trenches.
I'm your host, Penny Williams. I'm a parenting coach, author
and mindset mama, honored to guide you on the journey
of raising your atypical kid. Let's get started. Welcome back
(00:53):
everybody to Beautifully Complex. I am thrilled today to have
with me both Tiffany Burns and Erica bhar to talk
about their book and connecting with students at school through conversation,
which I know as parents we're going to be able
to pull a lot of good strategies from as well,
but we can also share these strategies with the educators
(01:16):
that work with our nerdivergent kids. So will you all
start by introducing yourself, Let everybody listening know who you
are and what you do, and then we're going to
get into the good stuff.
Speaker 3 (01:26):
Sure.
Speaker 4 (01:27):
I'm Erica Behar and I've been an educator for just
well a few years past twenty years. And I started
out as a special education teacher and I had the
opportunity to work with students an early intervention all the
way through transition age and absolutely loved that work. Transitioned
(01:48):
into administration school administration about thirteen fourteen years ago, and
was a high school principal and assistant principal, elementary principal,
student services director and assistant superintendent, and now serve as
the superintendent and a lovely district here in southern Oregon.
And on top of that, I have two amazing kids,
(02:09):
twenty and seventeen, and a fabulous husband who makes it
all possible for me. And I'm here with my lovely colleague, Tiffany.
Speaker 3 (02:17):
Hi.
Speaker 1 (02:18):
Thanks for having us. So I've also been in education
for over twenty years. I've taught elementary, middle, high school,
I'm now teaching university. I've been a school administrator since
twenty twelve. Eric and I actually met in our admin
program together and then we were hired in.
Speaker 3 (02:36):
The same district, which has been kind of lovely. Has
been rather lovely. I get to spend so much time
with her.
Speaker 1 (02:42):
I also have two fabulous children and a wonderful husband
and a.
Speaker 3 (02:46):
Very weird dog.
Speaker 1 (02:49):
And this year I decided to take a professional sabbatical.
Eric and I wrote this book and we've been traveling
all over the country doing professional development. I've been coaching principals,
working with schools and districts, and kind of hard to
do that is the full time principle. So this year
I'm working at a university and then doing that same
work and it has just been really fun, really really fun.
Speaker 2 (03:12):
Yeah, it's so amazing to be able to be a
helper in the world and to be able to share
what we're so passionate about. And I know that it's
helping so many people, so many schools and administrators, but
also the kids, because when we understand behavior and when
we're able to connect, it really makes a difference for students.
(03:35):
Where do you want to start this conversation. I feel
like there are probably some strategies around how we have
conversations with kids and you know, strategies around how do
we handle challenging behavior in a way that works for
nerdvergent kids, because so often those traditional models just don't
(03:55):
work for kids who have a hard time already in
that school environment and fitting and meeting expectations.
Speaker 4 (04:03):
Yeah, I think a primary strategy that we would start with,
really with all kids is the idea that we need
to care out loud with all of our students. I
love kids. That's why I got into education. I know
that you love kids. I think all of the educators
out there love kids, or at least we really hope so,
and they know that and their colleagues know that, but
(04:26):
oftentimes the students don't know that, and that really is
where we have to start. And Tiffany does a great
job kind of explaining how that goes.
Speaker 3 (04:35):
Thanks Erica, I do.
Speaker 1 (04:36):
I think that's one of the absolute most important things,
is making sure that kids know that we really really
do care about them. And that's why we went into education.
You know, they don't come into school just knowing that.
They don't come into school thinking, oh my goodness, every
single adult that works here loves me, they care about me.
Speaker 3 (04:53):
They got into.
Speaker 1 (04:54):
Education because they've just wanted to see me be successful.
And especially with our kids that are neurodiverse and that
are not neurotypical, they're getting lots of redirection frequently, right,
They're getting lots of reminders, lots of intervention, lots of
we need to do it this way, let's not do
it that way. And so I think it's important. I
(05:14):
know it's important for all kids, but it's especially important
for our kids that are needing extra direction or more
intervention because they're not thinking, oh gosh, she keeps telling
me to sit up and engage in class and get
my paper turned in, and she just saying all those
things because she just loves me so much and she
really cares about me. No, that kid thinks we're a nag.
(05:37):
That kid things that were on their case and that
we're really kind of after them, and they might even
think we don't like them, and that is really really problematic.
We know, you know, Erica likes to say, if you've
been in education for five minutes, you know that relationships
are important. And so with that, it's just really necessary
that we say to kids frequently, explicitly and intentionally, I
(06:02):
care about you. I'm so glad you're here. This class
is so much better because you're in it. Oh, it's
so fantastic that you participated today, you know, whatever it is.
But really building those sentence stems in or those phrases
into our everyday conversation, because if we don't, kids are
going to assume that we.
Speaker 2 (06:21):
Don't mm hm for sure. Yeah, And I'm thinking, you know,
how do we not even communicate that we care about?
How do we make them feel like they're cared for
in that environment? And teachers are so overtaxt right, there's
so much to think about and be responsible for. And
(06:42):
you have so many kids and they all have different needs.
What are some strategies that teachers can use kind of
with all kids really to make them feel like we care?
Speaker 4 (06:52):
So we really suggest we have to tell them, we
have to use our words, but then also we have
to build into our routine specific pieces that are going
to show care on a regular basis. So you know,
there's a number of them, and we talk about this
in our book and it's also on our website, but
a few routines that I think are really powerful that
we sometimes skip over. How we greet our students and
(07:15):
how we say goodbye to our students is really critical
students remember most clearly the first and last thing is
a part of any interaction, and so being really intentional
when a student is entering the space to make sure
that they feel welcome and loved and that we're excited
for them to be there. And that can range from
a whole number of things. It can be as simple
(07:36):
as like, oh my gosh, Johnny, I'm so excited to
see you today. We're going to have such a good time.
I'm thrilled that you're here to you know, you see
those YouTube videos with all the fancy greetings and that
sort of thing. If that's if that's for you, you
can do that too. But then also as closure kind
of bringing a celebration to the end of the day,
we want to use a student's name as often as
(07:56):
possible and then just say how excited we are to
see them now time and let them know that they're
going to be missed. And so really focusing on the
beginning and end is really critical. We also a very
practical thing to really help us get to know our
students and then celebrate them is to take inventory of
their favorite things. Find out what their favorite superhero is,
(08:19):
what's their favorite song, what's their favorite color, whatever, the
you know, depending on the age, is going to really
focus that but then finding those things out, but then
using them throughout the year. So if you get every
student's favorite song, you can build a playlist and when
it's appropriate to play music and class, you can play
a playlist of their favorite songs. When their birthday comes up,
(08:39):
you can celebrate with something that is specific to them.
You know, if their favorite superhero is Batman, we have
a Batman.
Speaker 3 (08:46):
Sticker, right.
Speaker 4 (08:47):
It doesn't have to be huge, but it just shows
that we're paying attention to them individually and as a person.
And so just building some of those routines into our
daily practice is going to show care on a regular basis.
Speaker 1 (09:02):
You know, I have I have two teenagers and both
of my kids are neurodiverse. And my son, I can
ask him how he's in high school. I can ask
him how his day is, and oh, my goodness, I
get like cool, fine, you know, I mean like one
word answers yep. My daughter, I ask her how her
day was, and I mean I get the full run
down of everything, like I know what people ate for
(09:23):
lunch that day, which.
Speaker 3 (09:24):
Is just great. My kids are just really different.
Speaker 1 (09:26):
But so you know, at dinner, or we try to
have dinner together as many times a week as we can.
Sometimes that's hard when they play sports and have different activities.
But one of the things we do every night at
dinner that we have it is we say, what's an
orchid and onion? What's a highlight of your day and
a low point in your day. My kids for a
while got into telling me something they were looking forward to,
(09:47):
so they named that a Karen's just cute, but it's
a really you know, we can do that in classrooms,
but we can also do that at home. Sometimes the
pressure of tell me about your day that's too much.
Speaker 3 (09:57):
But if I say what.
Speaker 1 (09:58):
Was a good thing that happened today and what was
a not so good thing that happened today? And then also,
you know, I have to be willing to share as well.
Speaker 3 (10:07):
I need to show that.
Speaker 1 (10:08):
Vulnerability too with my kids and say, here are the
parts you know about my day. I don't go into
detail with them, but I do share with them those
pieces and it's just really helpful to let them know
that we're paying attention and we do care about what's
going on for them.
Speaker 2 (10:23):
Yeah, And my son was the same way in high school.
When I would pick him up, I'd be like, how
is your day right, you know, doing that mom thing,
and he just did not have anything left in his
reserves at that moment to talk about any of it, right,
And I had to learn to honor that signal that
he was telling me they needed some downtime. I also
(10:43):
had to learn to be more specific and not ask
a question. My kid did not like questions. Questions were
an immediate like nope, not having any conversation with you,
and so noticing And that's kind of what you were
talking about too. Erica is really noticing what they're into,
but noticing it out loud with them, right. I see
(11:04):
that your favorite color is purple. I see that your
favorite team is you know, the sports team, or your
favorite TV show or book character, whatever it is. There's
so many ways to just be a little more communicative
about what we're noticing, right, And then that makes them
feel really seen. I talk all the time about how
(11:25):
if we all felt seen her and understood it would
really change the world, Like it really changes how we
show up and how we feel from day to day,
and it makes a huge impact for kids at school
when teachers, you know, the teachers that my kid remembers
now that he's graduated from school and had thirteen years,
(11:46):
are the ones who really took the time to get
to know him and to connect in that way. And
that's what's most memorable too, when you were talking about
greeting them in the mornings. We had a principal change
halfway through high school, and the new principal the last
couple of years before COVID hit was out there every
day reading every kid who got dropped off at that
(12:07):
front door, every single kid. He would talk to them,
and you knew that he had so many things to
be doing right because he's in charge of everything and
this is a big high school. But even I noticed
it as a parent, it made a difference to me.
Even so it's really a powerful thing.
Speaker 4 (12:27):
Yeah, And you know, oftentimes people will say we don't
have time to do these different things that help build
relationships or take that time to really get to know
and recognize and celebrate our students, And I would argue
strongly that we don't have time to not do that,
because what happens when we really take the time to
build those connections and build those relationships, you're able to
(12:48):
save so much time down the road. You know, I
was thinking about you know, you noticed as a parent,
and I think sometimes parents don't know how much we
love and care about their kids at school, and so
making sure that we're integrating that into our conversation as well,
making sure that we're engaging in frequent small talk with
our kids and their caregivers and then weaving that into
(13:12):
conversations with both of them can make a significant difference,
because you know, as a mom, I wanted to know
that the folks that were taking care of my kids
knew them, loved them, cared about them, and had their
very best interest at heart. And although you know as
an educator, I know that's true for me as a parent,
until you can see that in action, it's a leap
(13:32):
of faith. And so helping make that clear for everyone
is really important.
Speaker 2 (13:37):
Yeah, And how can we take these strategies that you've
been talking about and use them to help with behavior
challenges at school? Because we know, as I said in
the very beginning, most of the really traditional behavior modification
things don't work very well for neurodiversent kids. I would
argue that They're probably not the best way for any kid,
(13:59):
But like, for instance, in first grade, they had the
color behavior charts, right, and every kid would have to
turn their card if they got in trouble for something,
and kids like mine, who are hyperactive and all over
the place and want to talk all the time right,
really struggled with that with having to you know, you
would come home and say, my card is always orange red,
(14:20):
I don't know how to keep a green right. So
things like that can be damaging right to their self esteem.
How do we pivot from that? What's a more effective way?
I don't want to say better.
Speaker 4 (14:35):
Well, I think, you know, come from kind of the
twenty thousand foot view. The first thing we have to
do as educators and as parents and caregivers is recognize
that behaviors communication. They're needing to let us know something.
There's something that they need to communicate. There's a need
that's not being met, and they don't yet have the
skills to express that need in a way that you
(14:58):
know is kind of traditionally works at school, and so
we spend a lot of time talking about the fact
that a student's behavior is what they did, it's not
who they are. Because what can be tricky, you know.
And the example that you gave is if a student
has an orange and red card day after day after day,
(15:19):
they're going to start seeing themselves as a bad kid.
They're going to start seeing themselves as someone who is
not good at school. And so we want to be
really clear with students and in our own minds that
a behavior is just a thing you did, it's not
who you are. So our job is to help separate
that for students and then start to identify what are
some of the lagging skills, what are some of the
(15:41):
pieces that we can scaffold and build so that we
can communicate in a way that works better at school
When we get to a place where we just start
to believe that's who we are, or even as a teacher,
if we get to a place where we start belaving
that's just kind of who this kid is, then that's
a very kind of hopeless place to be. You know,
as the student, you're very likely to just start doing
(16:02):
more and more of that behavior because you start to
believe it's out of your control if you aren't being
taught the skills of how to adjust right and then
also being a negotiation with the educator about what can
work for me in this space in a way that's
going to work for everyone. Some of that collaborative problem
solving can be really helpful in moments like that. And
(16:23):
then also is a teacher like if we're in a
space where we're like I can't impact this behavior, then
we're just thinking this is going to be a really
long year. But we're teachers, and so our job is
to teach and build skills, and so we also want
to be in a place of Okay, this is a
skill they don't have. We're going to make a plan
to build this skill set and really work closely with
(16:44):
the student and with the team to figure out, Okay,
what are the specific skills, What are some of those
pieces that we can start skill building in in a
way that's going to work for everybody. So it's a
mindset piece for me as a starting place.
Speaker 1 (16:59):
Yeah, absolutely, Well, and I think too, it's how do
we build from their strengths?
Speaker 3 (17:04):
Right?
Speaker 1 (17:04):
Like how that whole idea of really getting to know
our students and knowing, you know, what their interests are.
That's also knowing what their strengths are and using those
to help build that relationship but also really support the
skill building that we're looking for. How do we really
channel those strengths. How do we focus on their interests
to help them, you know, be able to really I mean,
(17:25):
what we're asking kids to do is to stop think
and make good choices, and how can we do that
in ways that are really supportive and not shaming.
Speaker 2 (17:43):
I find too that these sorts of pivots for teachers,
you can do it for every student. It makes a
difference for every student, right, So we're not asking you
to adopt a different strategy for every different student, right
And as Erica said a few minutes ago, it's going
to save you time in the long run. If you
can shift, your classroom is just going to work more efficiently,
(18:09):
and kids are going to feel more comfortable there, which
helps with behavior also, and really adopting that mindset that
they are sending us signals. Kids are always sending us
signals of what they need. You know, when my kid
was bouncing all over the room, he needed movement, right
His nervous system was saying, I need movement. I can't
be still, you know, And that teacher was great, and
(18:32):
she pivoted in so many ways. In first grade, with
both giving him a different sort of behavior plan so
that he could earn the rewards that the other kids
were earning, and also a lot of movement and things
like that. And it didn't take any extra time. It
was just something that needed to happen, and it actually
saved her time right from having to constantly correct. And
(18:55):
you know what I was hearing you say is that
connection is so much more important and correction.
Speaker 1 (19:01):
Oh, absolutely well, And I think you keep saying mindset
and I think that's just so accurate and so just truthful.
And a lot of times when we think about kids
that need a lot of our intervention, they need a
lot of our attention, we call these students and we
think of them as attention seeking. And Eric, can I
(19:21):
talk a lot about really starting to shift that and
thinking about kids as connection seeking and just how that
small shift really changes the way that we're thinking about
kids and the way that we're interacting with kids, and
also it starts us to feel.
Speaker 3 (19:37):
Differently about them. Right.
Speaker 1 (19:39):
If I think of a student as attention seeking, well,
that means they need a lot.
Speaker 3 (19:43):
For me, I'm having to give a lot. That's a
one way relationship.
Speaker 2 (19:47):
Right.
Speaker 1 (19:48):
But if I think of a student as connection seeking, Well,
that just means that they want to connect with me,
and that goes from feeling like something I'm giving away
to something I'm also getting in return. That feels much
more reciprocal, That feels just like a much more.
Speaker 3 (20:04):
Joyful place to be.
Speaker 1 (20:06):
And not only will I feel that as the educator
or the adult talking with this child, They're going to
feel it as well. They'll notice that shift because I'll
talk to them differently, I'll think about them differently, and
we'll interact differently.
Speaker 2 (20:21):
It's almost a culture shift, right. You're creating a culture
in your classroom of community, of collaboration, of connection, and
that it just goes so far. It really can change everything.
Speaker 4 (20:34):
It really can. And I think you know, in our
book we talk about the mindset piece. We really believe
that there's an art and a science to building relationships
and serving kids. What I want to make sure that
we also share is that there is mind shift, there
is kind of thinking, and there's a lot of culture
building that needs to happen in a classroom or a
school community to get to a place where this is
(20:57):
going to be effective. But you can't just say to
an edge cater like think differently, do better. You also
have to provide some really concrete skills and strategies, and
so we really tried to balance those things, you know,
as a building principle. When I was working with an
educator who struggled with relationships, I couldn't just say, you know,
(21:17):
go build better relationships. If they knew how to do that,
they would be doing that right. It's always preferable to
do well then not do well, and I believe the
same thing for our kids. So we also tried to
include some concrete strategies. I think some of the pieces
around power struggle might be especially helpful for the parents
on the line too. But we spend a bunch of
(21:39):
time on this idea of not engaging in power struggles
with students because we know as soon as we engage,
we have lost the battle, and so we think about
it as like a tug of war. We're not going
to pick up the rope. And we have some specific
strategies that we like to share. One of them is
(21:59):
don't ask a question if it's not a choice. As educators,
we have this tendency to be super polite. We like
to put please in front of everything, and that can
be really confusing, especially if we have a black and
white thinker. If we have an expectation, we just need
to state the expectation. So saying something like, ooh, could
(22:20):
you walk in the halls is not helpful because a
perfectly acceptable answer to that is nu right. So instead
we're going to say, we walk in the halls, you
can take a seat now, thanks for lining up. But
we're just stating the expectation. We're not asking a question.
And it's just you wouldn't believe how common it is
to hear ooh, could you all take a seat, ooh
(22:42):
could you all come line up? Or we also often
see folks turn a statement into a question. Right, it's
time to move to art now, okay, and like by
adding that, okay, all of a sudden, we've taken an
expectation and we've turned it into a question.
Speaker 3 (23:00):
And any parent.
Speaker 4 (23:01):
Knows we're not going to look at a three year
old and say, oh, do you feel like going to
bed now?
Speaker 3 (23:05):
Right? Of course? Not no, no, thank you, you.
Speaker 4 (23:08):
Want to brush your teeth? Ah, So we want to
be really clear. State expectations as expectations, and don't ask
a question if it's not a choice.
Speaker 2 (23:19):
I love that that's such a practical strategy, right, because
we do. I mean I as a people pleaser and
a person with social anxiety, I'm always everything is please,
thank you, Like I'm going over the top with making
the other person comfortable and trying not to say the
(23:39):
wrong thing. And I think if we're just a super kind,
compassionate person, we're saying please and thank you, we're trying
to do that. And so it will take some mindful
awareness and effort to make that kind of shift, but
I can see how it would make a real difference.
Speaker 3 (23:55):
Yeah, can we talk just.
Speaker 2 (23:56):
A second before we close about you know, hear a
lot from parents and educators that we can't change the
way our system is.
Speaker 3 (24:07):
Right.
Speaker 2 (24:08):
So educators will say, well, it's the policy for my
entire school or my entire district that we use this
specific behavior program, the card turning or whatever it might be,
and they don't feel like they can do something different.
And then parents are coming in and saying this isn't
working for my kid, and they're saying, but this is
(24:29):
what I have to do. How can they start to
help to maybe shift the culture in their school so
that we can adopt these different ways of looking at
behavior and connecting with kids.
Speaker 1 (24:42):
I think it's really important to think about is what
you're doing working, you know? And Eric and I are
just on this absolute mission, like we do want to change. Yeah,
we are on a mission to ensure that every single
student in every single school feels that they are cared for, loved, seen, valued,
and a deep sense of belonging.
Speaker 3 (25:03):
That's what we want.
Speaker 1 (25:05):
And so I think the piece to really look at
is what you're doing really working and does it.
Speaker 3 (25:10):
Feel good to you?
Speaker 1 (25:11):
You know, Like I don't want to go to work
and feel like I don't want to be there, or
like my job is all about discipline. That's not fun.
That's not why I went into education. I want to
go because I want to get to spend time with kids.
I want to get excited about teaching and learning. I
want to feel some connection there. I want to bring
joy to the world, and I want to make the
world a better place. So we wrote this book to
(25:35):
do that. We wrote, I mean, this is a playbook
for how to talk with students, different strategies and stems
that we can use. And these type of strategies a
teacher can immediately put into place in their classroom just
like tomorrow, you know, and parents, it's so funny. We'll
talk to educators and the parents will be like, tried
it that night with my son and it totally works.
(25:57):
But I just think, you know, these are that are
just they build that culture of connection. When we were
coming back from COVID at the school I was in
principal at in elementary school, we had moved. There were
a number of different factors, but our student body had shifted.
Over fifty percent of our student body was brand new,
so a bunch of our students didn't really know our
(26:19):
you know, they didn't know the Walker way really and
so we really spent time putting these different strategies into place.
We really took a look at our systems, and we
really had this strong culture of connection. We had a
reduction of thirty six percent. We had thirty six percent
reduction in behavior referrals from the fall to the spring
in one year. And so I don't think it's just
(26:41):
one strategy. It's like, what's working and how do you
feel about it?
Speaker 4 (26:45):
Yeah, And I would add too, Tiffany at Walker didn't
change the behavior program that they used in the school.
They didn't change like the district adopted this is what
we do for behavior. They changed the relay, right, And
I think that's really what we try to do with
this book. We're not saying you need to throw out
(27:05):
a system, or you know, if you're a PBIS school,
if you're a storative justice, whatever the thing is, this
will work with all of those. And also I would
always challenge educators and families when we have like if
there's a specific strategy. You know, I'm thinking about those
red and yellow cards, which just does give me a
little bit of a shiver. But if if we went
(27:27):
to that as a strategy, right, if that was the strategy,
then I would want to go to that team and say, okay,
so we have the same interest. Our interest is to
have behavior that works at school or to reduce whatever
the behavior is that we're seeing that's problematic. Like that's
what we want to do. You want that, I want that,
Joey wants that. We all want that. So how can
(27:49):
we work together to find a strategy that's going to
meet everybody's needs. And here's the thing, Like if all
of our kids were the same, school would be a
very boring place. So the approach that works with one
student is not going to work with every student, and
so this idea that like this is the policy for everyone.
We have to have some freedom within those fences to
(28:12):
make things that work for the individual kids in front
of us, because that's that's what makes us so rich
and wonderful, is the diversity that we have in our spaces.
And so we need to be able to think creatively
and just focus on what is the thing that we
all want, and we all want students who are being
successful and thriving in school. So what can we do
(28:34):
to find something that will work for everyone?
Speaker 2 (28:37):
And showing up with flexibility it howsolute and I have
a feeling, you know, ross work because you said behaviors
communication at the beginning. And one of my favorite things
that he also says is if you show me an
inflexible kid, I will show you an equally inflexible adult.
Speaker 3 (28:55):
Right.
Speaker 2 (28:55):
We have to model that flexibility in order to get
that expectation of flexibility out of kids. And it's so important.
It teaches them so much just by us showing up
more flexibly. Yeah, let everybody know where they can find
your book and find your work online so that they
can learn more from you.
Speaker 3 (29:17):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (29:17):
The best place is definitely Connecting through Conversation dot Com.
Our website you can find our book. We have a
bunch of free resources on there. We have a blog
that talks a lot more about all of these things.
Our book is on Amazon. You can also grab it
through our website and our emails there all of the socials.
It's really helpful to follow us because we do again
(29:40):
just share a ton of free resources and ideas and
tips throughout the year, so really encourage you to do that.
We have a couple of special things going on right now.
Speaker 1 (29:48):
We do so it's really easy for folks to use
our book to do a book study. And we've got
a special right now that's happening. They can find that
on our website www. Dot Connecting through Conversation dot Com.
But for your listeners, we just launched this new online
course that is for parents and educators caregivers. It's about
two hours total of content broken up into like five
(30:11):
to ten or last minute little lessons and folks, if
they want to get a discount for that, they just
need to put in CTC podcast and that will give
them a fifty dollars discount code for the course. If
folks want a site license for their building, then they
should email us because they would get more of a
(30:32):
discount than that.
Speaker 3 (30:33):
But yeah, for individual they can awesome.
Speaker 2 (30:36):
And I'm going to link all of that up on
the show notes for everyone so that they can find
that really easily connect with you, really easily, and that's
going to be at PARENTINGADHD and Autism dot Com Slash
three one zero for episode three hundred and ten. I
just want to thank you all for the work that
you're doing. I feel like we're sort of soul sisters
(30:56):
and this mission for more connection and you know, just
a humanistic approach to helping and loving kids, and I
really appreciate it. And I'm so glad that you were
able to share a little bit of your time with
us and some of your wisdom to help everyone listening
and all of the kids that they have in their lives.
Speaker 4 (31:17):
Well, thank you so much. This was an absolute pleasure.
It was wonderful to talk with you this morning.
Speaker 2 (31:21):
Thank you.
Speaker 3 (31:22):
Thank you, Penny.
Speaker 1 (31:23):
I agree soul, if you love kids, then yes, absolutely
wares and think they're the coolest people on the planet.
Speaker 3 (31:29):
We're definitely related.
Speaker 2 (31:31):
Awesome. Well, I'll see everybody on the next episode Take
Good Care. Thanks for joining me on the Beautifully Complex Podcast.
If you enjoyed this episode, please subscribe and share, and
don't forget to check out my online courses and parent
coaching at PARENTINGADHD and Autism dot com and at The
Behavior Revolution dot com
They're not thinking, Oh gosh, she keeps telling me to
sit up and engage in class and get my paper
turned in. And she's just saying all those things because
she just loves me so much and she really cares
about me. No, that kid thinks we're a nag. That
kid things that were on their case, and that we're
really kind of after them, and they might even think
we don't like them, and that is really really problematic.
Speaker 2 (00:30):
Welcome to the Beautifully Complex podcast, where I share insights
and strategies on parenting neurodivergent kids straight from the trenches.
I'm your host, Penny Williams. I'm a parenting coach, author
and mindset mama, honored to guide you on the journey
of raising your atypical kid. Let's get started. Welcome back
(00:53):
everybody to Beautifully Complex. I am thrilled today to have
with me both Tiffany Burns and Erica bhar to talk
about their book and connecting with students at school through conversation,
which I know as parents we're going to be able
to pull a lot of good strategies from as well,
but we can also share these strategies with the educators
(01:16):
that work with our nerdivergent kids. So will you all
start by introducing yourself, Let everybody listening know who you
are and what you do, and then we're going to
get into the good stuff.
Speaker 3 (01:26):
Sure.
Speaker 4 (01:27):
I'm Erica Behar and I've been an educator for just
well a few years past twenty years. And I started
out as a special education teacher and I had the
opportunity to work with students an early intervention all the
way through transition age and absolutely loved that work. Transitioned
(01:48):
into administration school administration about thirteen fourteen years ago, and
was a high school principal and assistant principal, elementary principal,
student services director and assistant superintendent, and now serve as
the superintendent and a lovely district here in southern Oregon.
And on top of that, I have two amazing kids,
(02:09):
twenty and seventeen, and a fabulous husband who makes it
all possible for me. And I'm here with my lovely colleague, Tiffany.
Speaker 3 (02:17):
Hi.
Speaker 1 (02:18):
Thanks for having us. So I've also been in education
for over twenty years. I've taught elementary, middle, high school,
I'm now teaching university. I've been a school administrator since
twenty twelve. Eric and I actually met in our admin
program together and then we were hired in.
Speaker 3 (02:36):
The same district, which has been kind of lovely. Has
been rather lovely. I get to spend so much time
with her.
Speaker 1 (02:42):
I also have two fabulous children and a wonderful husband
and a.
Speaker 3 (02:46):
Very weird dog.
Speaker 1 (02:49):
And this year I decided to take a professional sabbatical.
Eric and I wrote this book and we've been traveling
all over the country doing professional development. I've been coaching principals,
working with schools and districts, and kind of hard to
do that is the full time principle. So this year
I'm working at a university and then doing that same
work and it has just been really fun, really really fun.
Speaker 2 (03:12):
Yeah, it's so amazing to be able to be a
helper in the world and to be able to share
what we're so passionate about. And I know that it's
helping so many people, so many schools and administrators, but
also the kids, because when we understand behavior and when
we're able to connect, it really makes a difference for students.
(03:35):
Where do you want to start this conversation. I feel
like there are probably some strategies around how we have
conversations with kids and you know, strategies around how do
we handle challenging behavior in a way that works for
nerdvergent kids, because so often those traditional models just don't
(03:55):
work for kids who have a hard time already in
that school environment and fitting and meeting expectations.
Speaker 4 (04:03):
Yeah, I think a primary strategy that we would start with,
really with all kids is the idea that we need
to care out loud with all of our students. I
love kids. That's why I got into education. I know
that you love kids. I think all of the educators
out there love kids, or at least we really hope so,
and they know that and their colleagues know that, but
(04:26):
oftentimes the students don't know that, and that really is
where we have to start. And Tiffany does a great
job kind of explaining how that goes.
Speaker 3 (04:35):
Thanks Erica, I do.
Speaker 1 (04:36):
I think that's one of the absolute most important things,
is making sure that kids know that we really really
do care about them. And that's why we went into education.
You know, they don't come into school just knowing that.
They don't come into school thinking, oh my goodness, every
single adult that works here loves me, they care about me.
Speaker 3 (04:53):
They got into.
Speaker 1 (04:54):
Education because they've just wanted to see me be successful.
And especially with our kids that are neurodiverse and that
are not neurotypical, they're getting lots of redirection frequently, right,
They're getting lots of reminders, lots of intervention, lots of
we need to do it this way, let's not do
it that way. And so I think it's important. I
(05:14):
know it's important for all kids, but it's especially important
for our kids that are needing extra direction or more
intervention because they're not thinking, oh gosh, she keeps telling
me to sit up and engage in class and get
my paper turned in, and she just saying all those
things because she just loves me so much and she
really cares about me. No, that kid thinks we're a nag.
(05:37):
That kid things that were on their case and that
we're really kind of after them, and they might even
think we don't like them, and that is really really problematic.
We know, you know, Erica likes to say, if you've
been in education for five minutes, you know that relationships
are important. And so with that, it's just really necessary
that we say to kids frequently, explicitly and intentionally, I
(06:02):
care about you. I'm so glad you're here. This class
is so much better because you're in it. Oh, it's
so fantastic that you participated today, you know, whatever it is.
But really building those sentence stems in or those phrases
into our everyday conversation, because if we don't, kids are
going to assume that we.
Speaker 2 (06:21):
Don't mm hm for sure. Yeah, And I'm thinking, you know,
how do we not even communicate that we care about?
How do we make them feel like they're cared for
in that environment? And teachers are so overtaxt right, there's
so much to think about and be responsible for. And
(06:42):
you have so many kids and they all have different needs.
What are some strategies that teachers can use kind of
with all kids really to make them feel like we care?
Speaker 4 (06:52):
So we really suggest we have to tell them, we
have to use our words, but then also we have
to build into our routine specific pieces that are going
to show care on a regular basis. So you know,
there's a number of them, and we talk about this
in our book and it's also on our website, but
a few routines that I think are really powerful that
we sometimes skip over. How we greet our students and
(07:15):
how we say goodbye to our students is really critical
students remember most clearly the first and last thing is
a part of any interaction, and so being really intentional
when a student is entering the space to make sure
that they feel welcome and loved and that we're excited
for them to be there. And that can range from
a whole number of things. It can be as simple
(07:36):
as like, oh my gosh, Johnny, I'm so excited to
see you today. We're going to have such a good time.
I'm thrilled that you're here to you know, you see
those YouTube videos with all the fancy greetings and that
sort of thing. If that's if that's for you, you
can do that too. But then also as closure kind
of bringing a celebration to the end of the day,
we want to use a student's name as often as
(07:56):
possible and then just say how excited we are to
see them now time and let them know that they're
going to be missed. And so really focusing on the
beginning and end is really critical. We also a very
practical thing to really help us get to know our
students and then celebrate them is to take inventory of
their favorite things. Find out what their favorite superhero is,
(08:19):
what's their favorite song, what's their favorite color, whatever, the
you know, depending on the age, is going to really
focus that but then finding those things out, but then
using them throughout the year. So if you get every
student's favorite song, you can build a playlist and when
it's appropriate to play music and class, you can play
a playlist of their favorite songs. When their birthday comes up,
(08:39):
you can celebrate with something that is specific to them.
You know, if their favorite superhero is Batman, we have
a Batman.
Speaker 3 (08:46):
Sticker, right.
Speaker 4 (08:47):
It doesn't have to be huge, but it just shows
that we're paying attention to them individually and as a person.
And so just building some of those routines into our
daily practice is going to show care on a regular basis.
Speaker 1 (09:02):
You know, I have I have two teenagers and both
of my kids are neurodiverse. And my son, I can
ask him how he's in high school. I can ask
him how his day is, and oh, my goodness, I
get like cool, fine, you know, I mean like one
word answers yep. My daughter, I ask her how her
day was, and I mean I get the full run
down of everything, like I know what people ate for
(09:23):
lunch that day, which.
Speaker 3 (09:24):
Is just great. My kids are just really different.
Speaker 1 (09:26):
But so you know, at dinner, or we try to
have dinner together as many times a week as we can.
Sometimes that's hard when they play sports and have different activities.
But one of the things we do every night at
dinner that we have it is we say, what's an
orchid and onion? What's a highlight of your day and
a low point in your day. My kids for a
while got into telling me something they were looking forward to,
(09:47):
so they named that a Karen's just cute, but it's
a really you know, we can do that in classrooms,
but we can also do that at home. Sometimes the
pressure of tell me about your day that's too much.
Speaker 3 (09:57):
But if I say what.
Speaker 1 (09:58):
Was a good thing that happened today and what was
a not so good thing that happened today? And then also,
you know, I have to be willing to share as well.
Speaker 3 (10:07):
I need to show that.
Speaker 1 (10:08):
Vulnerability too with my kids and say, here are the
parts you know about my day. I don't go into
detail with them, but I do share with them those
pieces and it's just really helpful to let them know
that we're paying attention and we do care about what's
going on for them.
Speaker 2 (10:23):
Yeah, And my son was the same way in high school.
When I would pick him up, I'd be like, how
is your day right, you know, doing that mom thing,
and he just did not have anything left in his
reserves at that moment to talk about any of it, right,
And I had to learn to honor that signal that
he was telling me they needed some downtime. I also
(10:43):
had to learn to be more specific and not ask
a question. My kid did not like questions. Questions were
an immediate like nope, not having any conversation with you,
and so noticing And that's kind of what you were
talking about too. Erica is really noticing what they're into,
but noticing it out loud with them, right. I see
(11:04):
that your favorite color is purple. I see that your
favorite team is you know, the sports team, or your
favorite TV show or book character, whatever it is. There's
so many ways to just be a little more communicative
about what we're noticing, right, And then that makes them
feel really seen. I talk all the time about how
(11:25):
if we all felt seen her and understood it would
really change the world, Like it really changes how we
show up and how we feel from day to day,
and it makes a huge impact for kids at school
when teachers, you know, the teachers that my kid remembers
now that he's graduated from school and had thirteen years,
(11:46):
are the ones who really took the time to get
to know him and to connect in that way. And
that's what's most memorable too, when you were talking about
greeting them in the mornings. We had a principal change
halfway through high school, and the new principal the last
couple of years before COVID hit was out there every
day reading every kid who got dropped off at that
(12:07):
front door, every single kid. He would talk to them,
and you knew that he had so many things to
be doing right because he's in charge of everything and
this is a big high school. But even I noticed
it as a parent, it made a difference to me.
Even so it's really a powerful thing.
Speaker 4 (12:27):
Yeah, And you know, oftentimes people will say we don't
have time to do these different things that help build
relationships or take that time to really get to know
and recognize and celebrate our students, And I would argue
strongly that we don't have time to not do that,
because what happens when we really take the time to
build those connections and build those relationships, you're able to
(12:48):
save so much time down the road. You know, I
was thinking about you know, you noticed as a parent,
and I think sometimes parents don't know how much we
love and care about their kids at school, and so
making sure that we're integrating that into our conversation as well,
making sure that we're engaging in frequent small talk with
our kids and their caregivers and then weaving that into
(13:12):
conversations with both of them can make a significant difference,
because you know, as a mom, I wanted to know
that the folks that were taking care of my kids
knew them, loved them, cared about them, and had their
very best interest at heart. And although you know as
an educator, I know that's true for me as a parent,
until you can see that in action, it's a leap
(13:32):
of faith. And so helping make that clear for everyone
is really important.
Speaker 2 (13:37):
Yeah, And how can we take these strategies that you've
been talking about and use them to help with behavior
challenges at school? Because we know, as I said in
the very beginning, most of the really traditional behavior modification
things don't work very well for neurodiversent kids. I would
argue that They're probably not the best way for any kid,
(13:59):
But like, for instance, in first grade, they had the
color behavior charts, right, and every kid would have to
turn their card if they got in trouble for something,
and kids like mine, who are hyperactive and all over
the place and want to talk all the time right,
really struggled with that with having to you know, you
would come home and say, my card is always orange red,
(14:20):
I don't know how to keep a green right. So
things like that can be damaging right to their self esteem.
How do we pivot from that? What's a more effective way?
I don't want to say better.
Speaker 4 (14:35):
Well, I think, you know, come from kind of the
twenty thousand foot view. The first thing we have to
do as educators and as parents and caregivers is recognize
that behaviors communication. They're needing to let us know something.
There's something that they need to communicate. There's a need
that's not being met, and they don't yet have the
skills to express that need in a way that you
(14:58):
know is kind of traditionally works at school, and so
we spend a lot of time talking about the fact
that a student's behavior is what they did, it's not
who they are. Because what can be tricky, you know.
And the example that you gave is if a student
has an orange and red card day after day after day,
(15:19):
they're going to start seeing themselves as a bad kid.
They're going to start seeing themselves as someone who is
not good at school. And so we want to be
really clear with students and in our own minds that
a behavior is just a thing you did, it's not
who you are. So our job is to help separate
that for students and then start to identify what are
some of the lagging skills, what are some of the
(15:41):
pieces that we can scaffold and build so that we
can communicate in a way that works better at school
When we get to a place where we just start
to believe that's who we are, or even as a teacher,
if we get to a place where we start belaving
that's just kind of who this kid is, then that's
a very kind of hopeless place to be. You know,
as the student, you're very likely to just start doing
(16:02):
more and more of that behavior because you start to
believe it's out of your control if you aren't being
taught the skills of how to adjust right and then
also being a negotiation with the educator about what can
work for me in this space in a way that's
going to work for everyone. Some of that collaborative problem
solving can be really helpful in moments like that. And
(16:23):
then also is a teacher like if we're in a
space where we're like I can't impact this behavior, then
we're just thinking this is going to be a really
long year. But we're teachers, and so our job is
to teach and build skills, and so we also want
to be in a place of Okay, this is a
skill they don't have. We're going to make a plan
to build this skill set and really work closely with
(16:44):
the student and with the team to figure out, Okay,
what are the specific skills, What are some of those
pieces that we can start skill building in in a
way that's going to work for everybody. So it's a
mindset piece for me as a starting place.
Speaker 1 (16:59):
Yeah, absolutely, Well, and I think too, it's how do
we build from their strengths?
Speaker 3 (17:04):
Right?
Speaker 1 (17:04):
Like how that whole idea of really getting to know
our students and knowing, you know, what their interests are.
That's also knowing what their strengths are and using those
to help build that relationship but also really support the
skill building that we're looking for. How do we really
channel those strengths. How do we focus on their interests
to help them, you know, be able to really I mean,
(17:25):
what we're asking kids to do is to stop think
and make good choices, and how can we do that
in ways that are really supportive and not shaming.
Speaker 2 (17:43):
I find too that these sorts of pivots for teachers,
you can do it for every student. It makes a
difference for every student, right, So we're not asking you
to adopt a different strategy for every different student, right
And as Erica said a few minutes ago, it's going
to save you time in the long run. If you
can shift, your classroom is just going to work more efficiently,
(18:09):
and kids are going to feel more comfortable there, which
helps with behavior also, and really adopting that mindset that
they are sending us signals. Kids are always sending us
signals of what they need. You know, when my kid
was bouncing all over the room, he needed movement, right
His nervous system was saying, I need movement. I can't
be still, you know, And that teacher was great, and
(18:32):
she pivoted in so many ways. In first grade, with
both giving him a different sort of behavior plan so
that he could earn the rewards that the other kids
were earning, and also a lot of movement and things
like that. And it didn't take any extra time. It
was just something that needed to happen, and it actually
saved her time right from having to constantly correct. And
(18:55):
you know what I was hearing you say is that
connection is so much more important and correction.
Speaker 1 (19:01):
Oh, absolutely well, And I think you keep saying mindset
and I think that's just so accurate and so just truthful.
And a lot of times when we think about kids
that need a lot of our intervention, they need a
lot of our attention, we call these students and we
think of them as attention seeking. And Eric, can I
(19:21):
talk a lot about really starting to shift that and
thinking about kids as connection seeking and just how that
small shift really changes the way that we're thinking about
kids and the way that we're interacting with kids, and
also it starts us to feel.
Speaker 3 (19:37):
Differently about them. Right.
Speaker 1 (19:39):
If I think of a student as attention seeking, well,
that means they need a lot.
Speaker 3 (19:43):
For me, I'm having to give a lot. That's a
one way relationship.
Speaker 2 (19:47):
Right.
Speaker 1 (19:48):
But if I think of a student as connection seeking, Well,
that just means that they want to connect with me,
and that goes from feeling like something I'm giving away
to something I'm also getting in return. That feels much
more reciprocal, That feels just like a much more.
Speaker 3 (20:04):
Joyful place to be.
Speaker 1 (20:06):
And not only will I feel that as the educator
or the adult talking with this child, They're going to
feel it as well. They'll notice that shift because I'll
talk to them differently, I'll think about them differently, and
we'll interact differently.
Speaker 2 (20:21):
It's almost a culture shift, right. You're creating a culture
in your classroom of community, of collaboration, of connection, and
that it just goes so far. It really can change everything.
Speaker 4 (20:34):
It really can. And I think you know, in our
book we talk about the mindset piece. We really believe
that there's an art and a science to building relationships
and serving kids. What I want to make sure that
we also share is that there is mind shift, there
is kind of thinking, and there's a lot of culture
building that needs to happen in a classroom or a
school community to get to a place where this is
(20:57):
going to be effective. But you can't just say to
an edge cater like think differently, do better. You also
have to provide some really concrete skills and strategies, and
so we really tried to balance those things, you know,
as a building principle. When I was working with an
educator who struggled with relationships, I couldn't just say, you know,
(21:17):
go build better relationships. If they knew how to do that,
they would be doing that right. It's always preferable to
do well then not do well, and I believe the
same thing for our kids. So we also tried to
include some concrete strategies. I think some of the pieces
around power struggle might be especially helpful for the parents
on the line too. But we spend a bunch of
(21:39):
time on this idea of not engaging in power struggles
with students because we know as soon as we engage,
we have lost the battle, and so we think about
it as like a tug of war. We're not going
to pick up the rope. And we have some specific
strategies that we like to share. One of them is
(21:59):
don't ask a question if it's not a choice. As educators,
we have this tendency to be super polite. We like
to put please in front of everything, and that can
be really confusing, especially if we have a black and
white thinker. If we have an expectation, we just need
to state the expectation. So saying something like, ooh, could
(22:20):
you walk in the halls is not helpful because a
perfectly acceptable answer to that is nu right. So instead
we're going to say, we walk in the halls, you
can take a seat now, thanks for lining up. But
we're just stating the expectation. We're not asking a question.
And it's just you wouldn't believe how common it is
to hear ooh, could you all take a seat, ooh
(22:42):
could you all come line up? Or we also often
see folks turn a statement into a question. Right, it's
time to move to art now, okay, and like by
adding that, okay, all of a sudden, we've taken an
expectation and we've turned it into a question.
Speaker 3 (23:00):
And any parent.
Speaker 4 (23:01):
Knows we're not going to look at a three year
old and say, oh, do you feel like going to
bed now?
Speaker 3 (23:05):
Right? Of course? Not no, no, thank you, you.
Speaker 4 (23:08):
Want to brush your teeth? Ah, So we want to
be really clear. State expectations as expectations, and don't ask
a question if it's not a choice.
Speaker 2 (23:19):
I love that that's such a practical strategy, right, because
we do. I mean I as a people pleaser and
a person with social anxiety, I'm always everything is please,
thank you, Like I'm going over the top with making
the other person comfortable and trying not to say the
(23:39):
wrong thing. And I think if we're just a super kind,
compassionate person, we're saying please and thank you, we're trying
to do that. And so it will take some mindful
awareness and effort to make that kind of shift, but
I can see how it would make a real difference.
Speaker 3 (23:55):
Yeah, can we talk just.
Speaker 2 (23:56):
A second before we close about you know, hear a
lot from parents and educators that we can't change the
way our system is.
Speaker 3 (24:07):
Right.
Speaker 2 (24:08):
So educators will say, well, it's the policy for my
entire school or my entire district that we use this
specific behavior program, the card turning or whatever it might be,
and they don't feel like they can do something different.
And then parents are coming in and saying this isn't
working for my kid, and they're saying, but this is
(24:29):
what I have to do. How can they start to
help to maybe shift the culture in their school so
that we can adopt these different ways of looking at
behavior and connecting with kids.
Speaker 1 (24:42):
I think it's really important to think about is what
you're doing working, you know? And Eric and I are
just on this absolute mission, like we do want to change. Yeah,
we are on a mission to ensure that every single
student in every single school feels that they are cared for, loved, seen, valued,
and a deep sense of belonging.
Speaker 3 (25:03):
That's what we want.
Speaker 1 (25:05):
And so I think the piece to really look at
is what you're doing really working and does it.
Speaker 3 (25:10):
Feel good to you?
Speaker 1 (25:11):
You know, Like I don't want to go to work
and feel like I don't want to be there, or
like my job is all about discipline. That's not fun.
That's not why I went into education. I want to
go because I want to get to spend time with kids.
I want to get excited about teaching and learning. I
want to feel some connection there. I want to bring
joy to the world, and I want to make the
world a better place. So we wrote this book to
(25:35):
do that. We wrote, I mean, this is a playbook
for how to talk with students, different strategies and stems
that we can use. And these type of strategies a
teacher can immediately put into place in their classroom just
like tomorrow, you know, and parents, it's so funny. We'll
talk to educators and the parents will be like, tried
it that night with my son and it totally works.
(25:57):
But I just think, you know, these are that are
just they build that culture of connection. When we were
coming back from COVID at the school I was in
principal at in elementary school, we had moved. There were
a number of different factors, but our student body had shifted.
Over fifty percent of our student body was brand new,
so a bunch of our students didn't really know our
(26:19):
you know, they didn't know the Walker way really and
so we really spent time putting these different strategies into place.
We really took a look at our systems, and we
really had this strong culture of connection. We had a
reduction of thirty six percent. We had thirty six percent
reduction in behavior referrals from the fall to the spring
in one year. And so I don't think it's just
(26:41):
one strategy. It's like, what's working and how do you
feel about it?
Speaker 4 (26:45):
Yeah, And I would add too, Tiffany at Walker didn't
change the behavior program that they used in the school.
They didn't change like the district adopted this is what
we do for behavior. They changed the relay, right, And
I think that's really what we try to do with
this book. We're not saying you need to throw out
(27:05):
a system, or you know, if you're a PBIS school,
if you're a storative justice, whatever the thing is, this
will work with all of those. And also I would
always challenge educators and families when we have like if
there's a specific strategy. You know, I'm thinking about those
red and yellow cards, which just does give me a
little bit of a shiver. But if if we went
(27:27):
to that as a strategy, right, if that was the strategy,
then I would want to go to that team and say, okay,
so we have the same interest. Our interest is to
have behavior that works at school or to reduce whatever
the behavior is that we're seeing that's problematic. Like that's
what we want to do. You want that, I want that,
Joey wants that. We all want that. So how can
(27:49):
we work together to find a strategy that's going to
meet everybody's needs. And here's the thing, Like if all
of our kids were the same, school would be a
very boring place. So the approach that works with one
student is not going to work with every student, and
so this idea that like this is the policy for everyone.
We have to have some freedom within those fences to
(28:12):
make things that work for the individual kids in front
of us, because that's that's what makes us so rich
and wonderful, is the diversity that we have in our spaces.
And so we need to be able to think creatively
and just focus on what is the thing that we
all want, and we all want students who are being
successful and thriving in school. So what can we do
(28:34):
to find something that will work for everyone?
Speaker 2 (28:37):
And showing up with flexibility it howsolute and I have
a feeling, you know, ross work because you said behaviors
communication at the beginning. And one of my favorite things
that he also says is if you show me an
inflexible kid, I will show you an equally inflexible adult.
Speaker 3 (28:55):
Right.
Speaker 2 (28:55):
We have to model that flexibility in order to get
that expectation of flexibility out of kids. And it's so important.
It teaches them so much just by us showing up
more flexibly. Yeah, let everybody know where they can find
your book and find your work online so that they
can learn more from you.
Speaker 3 (29:17):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (29:17):
The best place is definitely Connecting through Conversation dot Com.
Our website you can find our book. We have a
bunch of free resources on there. We have a blog
that talks a lot more about all of these things.
Our book is on Amazon. You can also grab it
through our website and our emails there all of the socials.
It's really helpful to follow us because we do again
(29:40):
just share a ton of free resources and ideas and
tips throughout the year, so really encourage you to do that.
We have a couple of special things going on right now.
Speaker 1 (29:48):
We do so it's really easy for folks to use
our book to do a book study. And we've got
a special right now that's happening. They can find that
on our website www. Dot Connecting through Conversation dot Com.
But for your listeners, we just launched this new online
course that is for parents and educators caregivers. It's about
two hours total of content broken up into like five
(30:11):
to ten or last minute little lessons and folks, if
they want to get a discount for that, they just
need to put in CTC podcast and that will give
them a fifty dollars discount code for the course. If
folks want a site license for their building, then they
should email us because they would get more of a
(30:32):
discount than that.
Speaker 3 (30:33):
But yeah, for individual they can awesome.
Speaker 2 (30:36):
And I'm going to link all of that up on
the show notes for everyone so that they can find
that really easily connect with you, really easily, and that's
going to be at PARENTINGADHD and Autism dot Com Slash
three one zero for episode three hundred and ten. I
just want to thank you all for the work that
you're doing. I feel like we're sort of soul sisters
(30:56):
and this mission for more connection and you know, just
a humanistic approach to helping and loving kids, and I
really appreciate it. And I'm so glad that you were
able to share a little bit of your time with
us and some of your wisdom to help everyone listening
and all of the kids that they have in their lives.
Speaker 4 (31:17):
Well, thank you so much. This was an absolute pleasure.
It was wonderful to talk with you this morning.
Speaker 2 (31:21):
Thank you.
Speaker 3 (31:22):
Thank you, Penny.
Speaker 1 (31:23):
I agree soul, if you love kids, then yes, absolutely
wares and think they're the coolest people on the planet.
Speaker 3 (31:29):
We're definitely related.
Speaker 2 (31:31):
Awesome. Well, I'll see everybody on the next episode Take
Good Care. Thanks for joining me on the Beautifully Complex Podcast.
If you enjoyed this episode, please subscribe and share, and
don't forget to check out my online courses and parent
coaching at PARENTINGADHD and Autism dot com and at The
Behavior Revolution dot com
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