May 21, 2025 • 39 mins
The antidote to stress and disconnection could be awe. In this heartwarming episode, I chat with child development expert Deborah Farmer Kris about the transformative power of awe and wonder for beautifully complex kids. From music and nature to kindness and curiosity, we explore how tapping into these moments can reduce stress, regulate the nervous system, and foster belonging. You’ll hear real stories, science-backed insights, and simple ways to help your child (and yourself) become an awe-seeker in a world that often feels overwhelming.
Listen now and discover the small moments that can create big shifts in emotional regulation and joy.
You can find additional resources at parentingadhdandautism.com and Regulated Kids.com — because it’s not just about the struggles, it’s about progress, one step at a time.
Show notes and more resources at parentingadhdandautism.com/313
Become a supporter of this podcast: https://www.spreaker.com/podcast/beautifully-complex--6137613/support.
Listen now and discover the small moments that can create big shifts in emotional regulation and joy.
You can find additional resources at parentingadhdandautism.com and Regulated Kids.com — because it’s not just about the struggles, it’s about progress, one step at a time.
Show notes and more resources at parentingadhdandautism.com/313
Become a supporter of this podcast: https://www.spreaker.com/podcast/beautifully-complex--6137613/support.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:03):
When you are focused, that drains your attention battery. We
only have so much of it, and some of us
have varying degrees of it. But being in nature, our
brain is still active, right, So think of like your
phone is still on while it's charging. I GE's still active,
but it's effortless versus effort full. Right. The birds song,
the wind in your face, it's stimulating, but it's helping
(00:27):
restore your attention capacities.
Speaker 2 (00:30):
Welcome to the Beautifully Complex podcast, where I share insights
and strategies on parenting neurodivergent kids straight from the trenches.
I'm your host, Penny Williams. I'm a parenting coach, author
and mindset mama, honored to guide you on the journey
of raising your atypical kid. Let's get started. Hi, everyone,
(00:54):
welcome back to Beautifully Complex. I am really thrilled to
have Denverra Farmer Chris back with me, who I always
love to chat with. We have the most amazing conversations
about compassion, empathy and the way kids should feel and
how we help them feel these amazing ways, and I
just I always look forward to our conversations, and today
(01:16):
we're going to talk about awe and wonder because you
have a new book coming out called Raising All Seekers, right,
and so I'm really excited to talk about this because
i feel like I have so much awe and wonder
and I feel like my kids have none, and I
feel like sometimes I feel them in that way, and
so I'm really excited to talk about how we can
(01:38):
help defoster these senses and our kids. Will you start,
Deborah before we jump in and let everybody know who
you are and what you do.
Speaker 1 (01:46):
Sure, So I'm Deborah from Chris and I'm a child
development expert. So i spent twenty years in the classroom.
I've written many picture books and board books. I work
for PBS Kids, as I talked with Penny about in
an earlier episode. I'm an advisor for Carl the Collector
on Previous Kids, which is so near and dear to
my heart. And this is my first parenting book coming out.
(02:07):
But I've been a parenting journalist for a decade, and
I feel like everything kind of coalesced around this topic
of awe and wonder, and I've spent four years ready
and I'm still excited about it. So that's how you
know you found something you care about right.
Speaker 2 (02:21):
Absolutely, yeah. And we were chatting before we started recording
about the fact that we have a lot of awe
and wonder about natural beauty. Maybe we're both tree lovers.
I think trees are all these artistic sculptures, and I
just feel amazing when I look at trees. I have
photographs of all different trees in my house, like it's
(02:43):
a thing. My family makes fun of me, it's a thing,
But I have this sense like when I see things
still that they're beautiful and they are somewhat magical almost,
that they exist, and that we get to enjoy them.
What is the science behind maybe awe and wonder? Where
(03:04):
do we start so we can sort of unpack, like
where does this come from?
Speaker 1 (03:08):
Well, first of all, like that is such a gift
that you feel that, because not only is it a
wonderful feeling, it turns out that awe and wonder are
related to so many benefits for ourselves and our kids.
And I kind of stumbled upon this research. I've stumbled
upon it during the pandemic. And the story, and it's
a very real story, goes that I had been asked
(03:32):
by a school to come give a parenting presentation on
resilience and stress. And this was Fallow twenty twenty one,
and like something inside me broke. I was like, I'm
resilienced out. I have resilience to myself for eighteen months
right during this pandemic and my kids at home, and
I was like, I really just want to talk about
something more hopeful, and I wanted to pitch something, but
(03:54):
I wasn't sure what. And I somehow stumbled down the
rabbit hole of AWE research and I came up across
this white paper and it has twenty plus years of
like real research by psychologists at TAP the universities behind it.
And what they've found is that the simplest way to
define it, right is you know you're feeling it. It
(04:15):
might be the goosebumps, the tears spring into your eyes
when you just look at something and say wow, right,
or the whole crowd goes wow because we all feel that.
And for kids, for me, it's often like when their
eyes grow wide. That's a sign to me that they're
feeling that sense of wonder. And you know, it turns
out it correlates with mental wellness, with even decreases in
(04:38):
inflammation and stress levels in the blood and in saliva.
It correlates with academics because when you're curious about something,
when there's like this wow moment, it primes the brain
to learn. And so all of these outcomes we want
for kids. There's some incredible stories about how you know
ahe makes steady participants, more generous, more willing to share
(05:02):
with strangers. It helps us feel connected, more connected to
the community. So if you think about almost every good
thing you want for your kids, like aw can be
one of those things that helps support that. And the
other piece is like, it's not something you have to
feel all the time, but when you do feel it
right like, this is why I call it raising AWE secrets.
(05:24):
It's almost like I just want to kind of put
myself and my kids in the path where I could,
you know, like if I'm going to take that walk outside,
I might, you know. So my book is structured around
these seven sources of AWE. Researchers have found that there
are basically seven major umbrellas where people report that they
(05:45):
feel this and we know we can talk more about
that later, and so I take each one of those
and we look at it from kind of a child
development perspective, and for all kinds of kids, and so
you know, this is I'm really I have a lot
of kid voices and teen voice is in this and
kids who find fascination in really different things, different things
(06:05):
than I might find fascination in. It's actually a in
the book, it was a high schooler who just waxes
on about how the Franklin Expedition, which she was completely
taken with for like three years, like hyper focus, what
that taught her about like humanity, and like it was
just it's just so cool and beautiful because I know
(06:27):
nothing about the Franklin Expedition, but like her awe and
wonder was inspiring.
Speaker 2 (06:32):
It's contagious. Yeah, yeah, that feeling. You may not have
the same awe about the same thing, but witnessing someone
else's awe is contagious. It makes us feel good. I
love to watch America's Got Talent for that exact reason
because I just got goosebumps just saying it. Because when
people have their moment, it makes me so happy to
(06:56):
see it. And so that's what i'd never or watch
like the last few where they pick a winner because
their awe is gone, like they're like, okay, I'm in it.
People like me. Right, it's a different experience. I like
watching when they first come out, they doubt themselves and
they get that win, right, and you can just see
(07:17):
them light up and have their moment, and it makes
me so happy. But I was thinking as you were talking,
like sometimes I think as a parent, we think that
there are certain things that create awe yea and that
our kids should have wonder and excitement about those same
certain things. And that's not necessarily the case, right, How
(07:38):
do we help our kids figure out what brings on
this emotion and this joy for them?
Speaker 1 (07:44):
You know, I think that's one of the great experiments
and one of the kind of guiding principles I have
throughout the book is this concept of radical curiosity. And
I think especially when you have, you know, kids who
are beautifully complex, being kind of radically curious about what
makes them tick, what them joy, what sparks their delight
is part of this journey that we're on. And so
(08:06):
you know, I remember being a mentor to a high
schooler and just high school as a tough time, was
not finding her people, and you know, just all of
those traditional struggles that many of our listeners will know well.
And I can't saying, you know, keep tapping into what
you love and when you get to college, you're going
to find like it's you're going to go there and
(08:29):
you serious stays trude to kind of tapping into your
you know, your own passions. And she got to college
and she emailed me two months into the air and said,
I did it, Like I found friends and I found
them in a bird watching club. Yeah, there was no
birdwatching club in high school. That wasn't part of the
American high school experience. But that was something you know
(08:50):
that it was like almost just trusting and finding that.
So one thing I find helpful in the research is
when I saw these categories of awe this that was
just a really helpful framework for me as a person
and as a parent. So I'll just share them with
your listener.
Speaker 2 (09:05):
Yeah, so I'm very curious.
Speaker 1 (09:06):
I think the most obvious is nature, and especially in springtime.
It's actually this is the time year I feel like
I can actually get my kids tapped into it. Because
my son, who seems to sometimes pay zero attention to
the outdoors, he was completely captivated by the cherry blossoms
at Headlake Bloom Because you know, winter's long in New
England and he was like, we need a plant cherry tree.
(09:27):
I was like, okay, we can put that on our
list in the next couple of years to plant this tree.
So nature, right, like you know, the beautiful sunset. And
I'm a person who will pull my kids. I'm the
one who will say come out and see the sunset.
And I'll make them and they'll look for twelve seconds
and they'll go back inside.
Speaker 2 (09:42):
Right.
Speaker 1 (09:42):
But it's like I feel like they're going to remember
their mom is the person who said come see the sunset,
just the way I start my book by telling a
story of my father pulling me awake out of bed
at two am to go see the meteor shower. Right.
And you know my dad who struggled it many ways
to connect. You know, my dad was on spectrum and
(10:03):
he was fascinated though by everything science, and so every
time there's a meteor shower, my mind goes to my
dad and that is a beautiful core memory. Did I
express that at that age? Did I grumble? Probably? Right?
So nature provides that. Then there's art, right, and that
can be traditional art, that can be a really cool
(10:25):
big mural, can also be architecture like walking in to
a rotunda or a cathedral, or seeing a skyline that
you've never seen before, you know, being fascinated by how
a train is made or a submarine, and all of
those pieces go into it music making music, And I
(10:45):
feel like my music chapter has more kids and parents
who are neurodivergent than any other because it seems to
be such a language for speaking and connecting. And so
one of my favorite stories there is from a friend
whose son wandered into the wrong classroom when he was
in second grade and there was a mandolin and he
(11:07):
began to pluck it, and when the teacher walked in,
rather than reprimanding him, noticed that he seemed to have
an incredible ear for it. He was tuning it, and
he seemed to have perfect pitch. And that has sent
him down. I mean it is not saying middle of
high school were rough and hard for so many reasons,
but like he plays in a professional jazz band mandolin
(11:28):
player in college now, and that amazing teacher, right, Like
seeing that like created that the next one's big ideas,
and that is just being fascinated by anything, right, the
big questions that we have and that you know, most
great discoveries and ideas and inventions come because somebody had
a big question. And I think so many of our
(11:49):
kids have really amazing questions about the world and kind
of tapping into those and using those and talk more
about this later, but like using those as a springboard
for other learning, like tapping into where the hyper interest
might be as a way to kind of, you know,
find a springboard and other things. The next one is
the feeling of belonging or collective effort vescence. That means
(12:12):
like you're part of a group that's doing something together
that's good. And that might be as simple as like
being at a sports gain that you're rooting along and
you're all cheering. It could be being part of a choir,
could be being part of a D and D club
right where you're all on a campaign together. And then
there's its experiences with life and death and so the
(12:33):
awe when you see a brand new puppy, right like
if you give a sixteen year old a kid and
their face is going to turn into a childlike face.
But then also experiences with the other side of the spectrum,
and those questions and moments take kind of sacred moments
with loss and death. And then the final one which
gets me so excited is that it turns out that
(12:55):
the most common source of awe for humans, they report
feeling it when they witness or hear about other people
being kind and brave. Now I find that super hopeful
with like in our world right now is that we
are super inspired by good stories. Like you know, you
hear a story of somebody doing something brave or kind,
(13:18):
you get those goosebumps. And so one of the ways
that this book has changed my parenting is that I
am on the lookout for a story to tell my
kids organically. So I'm on the lookout for our news
story or a something happened in the neighborhood, and maybe
I share it on the way home, maybe I text
(13:39):
it to them and be like, oh my gosh, this
story right. And just so that I am feeding some
of those counteractive you know, measures that say this is
a beautiful world full of beautiful people. Yes, it's messy,
Yes there's pain, there are people doing terrible things, but
also everywhere you look there's beauty. So that scaffolding helps
(14:03):
me Because you may have a kid who's so not
into art and like nature, they feel allergic to it,
but they may be super into music and that can
be a source of offer them.
Speaker 2 (14:13):
Yeah, as you just listed those categories and talked about them,
I sort of had this highlight reel of visuals going
through my mind. I want to know all the things
that I have had awe Like architecture. It's one of
the reasons I love New York City. And you know,
there's a place in Central Park where you go under
(14:34):
this bridge and I discovered it by mistake on a
trip there one time, and it is magical. The whole
thing is painted and there's all these curves and it's
so like Art Deco and just magical. And it felt
even more so because it's like this little hidden gym
(14:55):
where if you don't know it's there, you don't know
it's there, you may not stumble on it. Like music
and the connection with neurodivergence. My husband and my son
both are gifted in music and both are neurodivergent, and
you know, music is a huge part of really getting
through the day to day honestly for them. Yeah, and
(15:18):
so every category, like I was thinking of these things,
and I share those stories all the time with my
kids too, and they're in their twenties now, and they're like, hey, whatever,
you know, they don't want to hear anything I have
to say usually, but I'm still trying to share my
all and wonder with them and help them to find theirs.
One thought that I had too as you were talking
(15:40):
is we need to notice when they are experiencing these feelings, right.
We need to notice it. We need to call attention
to it, because I would imagine that that helps to
foster more of those kind of experiences. Would you agree
with that? I would?
Speaker 1 (15:59):
You know? In one reason and I like being able
to name it as a feeling is because I feel
like if you can't name something, it's hard to seek it, right.
And so you know, if you think about like kind
of feeling peaceful or mindful, you start paying attention to
kind of what that feels like in your body. But
if you're thinking, like, you know that goosebump moment, like
(16:19):
I remember I've had that moment, and then you're like, oh, okay,
so that's awe, and then you can start paying attention
to what brings that for you. And I think, as
you know, as kids are older, that's a great conversation.
When they're younger, it's also just it helps, you know,
for me like where to steer a little bit, especially
when they're going through all those phases where everything stupid
(16:40):
or maybe they loved something and now they just don't
write because you have a sixth grader. You know, like
when my Loos is in sixth grade, every interest was
like I'm quitting girl Scouts and quitting piano, I'm quitting
this and quitting horseback riding, and there was nothing left right,
and so it's kind of you know, I'm just like, okay,
so what seems to spark, you know, art seem to
(17:02):
spark a little bit. So it was like maybe we'd
kind of dabble in like one art class, right, like
just experiment and run one one mile together race, right,
just to see if running could be something they could
be interesting and and just to start paying attention to
what sparked and you know, nurture that knowing it can
(17:23):
shift again and that that's okay, right. I think sometimes
as parents we get kind of locked in too, like
you know, but we've put so much time and money
into soccer and now they don't want to play, and
that's okay. I mean at some point, right, like it's
not that you want them to give up everything. Sometimes
you're like, I've paid for the semester, you're taking the
piano lessons. But sometimes you got to pay attention to
(17:44):
like are you doing most of the pushing right? At
some point? It's the intrinsic motivation that is so much
of AWE is like, I want to do this because
that helps you do anyone it's hard, right, Like one
of my kids did piano dutifully but never loved it.
And then finally, you know, it was like, Okay, that's
not your thing and joined a theater troupe and was like,
oh I love this. And then you know, my other
(18:06):
kid like discovered a great team. We found a great
teacher for piano. The first one was a great fit.
And this one kind of gets his very expansive, creative,
beautifully complex mind and teaches him to it and he
loves it. And so he will practice for hours without
me asking. And so he was willing to do the
(18:27):
hard thing, the practice, because it sparks that and so
I'm going to nurture that, and you know, it's and
that's the dance of parenthood. But having the lens for
me of kind of knowing that awe and wonder is
that little thing that makes life a little more fun
and fulfilling has been helpful in this kind of you know,
(18:50):
being parent of adolescence phase that I'm.
Speaker 2 (18:52):
In right now, I think really nurturing that curiosity for
all of us, Like what is it that sparks joy
for you? Is it piano or is it not? Like
there's this push and pull for us as parents. We
(19:14):
know that there are things that are beneficial. We want
our kids to have experiences, We want them to maybe
learn that you have to really practice at something in
order to succeed in it, whatever it might be, the
lesson within it. And then on the other hand, it's like, well,
we really want them to be happy and have joy,
and what if piano is not doing that right?
Speaker 1 (19:36):
Well, it was actually that her teacher who said this
amazing for both of who said to her, you know,
I know you're practicing, but I've yet to see you
love this.
Speaker 2 (19:45):
Do you?
Speaker 1 (19:46):
Is this how you want to spend your time? And
she was like not really? And so her teacher talked
to me because I was like non negotiable to lighth grade. Yeah,
that was one of mine, Like, because that's what I
did by my mom was like you can quit when
you hit eighth grade. And I was like, okay, well,
you know, you know, I know she will practice like
she's responsible, but maybe there's something else that's in the
(20:06):
arts that you know, might be more fulfilling. And it's
not that one path isn't the only path. And I
think that's you know, so important for kids. I had
this great conversation with a woman named Natalie Bunner and
she's a family therapist in Louisiana, and we're talking about
belonging and you know, and that kind of struggle sometimes
(20:27):
to find your people. And she said one of the
things she works with a lot with parents on that
issue is when they kind of have a narrow view
of where their child should find belonging, like you know,
they need to be part of the sports club. They're
going to find it through sports, right, or they're going
to find it through blank And she said, we have
to just really widen our possibilities for where they might
(20:49):
find that, right And so you know, maybe it's through
a robotics club, maybe it's through but being able to
identify an interest can help you identify a group where
you might find more feelings of belonging. I thought that
was a wise piece of advice.
Speaker 2 (21:05):
Yeah, absolutely, you said a couple of things that sparked
for me. One is the robotics club. That's where my
own kid in seventh grade finally found his tribe. But
also I keep coming back to this idea too of
pressure and how difficult that is for our kids and
how much it sort of turns them off to things. So,
(21:29):
you know, and maybe this is more about those teachers,
those piano teachers. You know, it was one like super
rigid and you must do this and there's a lot
of pressure, and then another might be more free with it,
and you know, do it in your own way, right
instead of my way. I'm just the piano. It is
(21:49):
just an example. But like when robotics got super pressurized
because they did competitions, wasn't is into it anymore? Right?
Speaker 1 (21:59):
I'm watching this with so many kids. You know, My
kids are in kind of the middle school ones enter
high school where they're there and haven't been involved as
much with kind of the kind of the sports and
dance and gymnastics. But all their friends are facing this
challenge right now of if I'm going to stick with gymnastics,
you're on the competitive team, but some of them don't
(22:21):
want to be competitive, They just like doing it. And
I'm I think about how do we create these spaces
for kids where it's not about specializing, Like, what's the
space for the kid who's just like I want to
go and just do the bars and the routine, but
I don't want to be every weekend at a competition somewhere,
you know. And I think of that kind of pressure
we put on like travel teams for kids on supports, yes,
(22:43):
And I think that's on parents, and that's on teachers
to say, how do we make space There are some
kids will thrive with that competition, but not everybody, you know,
for the ones that just want to enjoy making a
robot and have fun doing that.
Speaker 2 (22:58):
Yeah. Yeah, My daughter was way into softball. She started it,
I don't know, age eight, probably seven, maybe, loved it,
loved it, loved it. As soon as she got to
middle school and she got on the middle school team,
she did not love it anymore because it was competitive.
At that point you performed or you got yelled at,
(23:20):
or you had to run labs or you know, and
it just wasn't And now as a young adult, she
keeps looking for a place to play because she's still
craves playing, but for fun, not for winning or you know,
this high pressure competition. I think that happens so so
often to our kids in one way or another. We
(23:44):
put so much emphasis on performance instead of just like
joy and wonder and experience and journey. Right, Like, if
you're really into something, provide the opportunity for your kid
in that area if they're into it, and then watch
the journey, let it unfold.
Speaker 1 (24:04):
Does it need to lead to a medal or a
title or a scholarship?
Speaker 2 (24:08):
Right?
Speaker 1 (24:09):
You know when you hear them from kids of leg
you see that. You know, the research shows that hobbies
really drop off in middle school. I've been laughing at
you know, there seems to be a lot of kind
of news stories recently about kind of millennial women picking
up grandma hobbies. Yes, I'm lay because I picked up
embroidery in the last year and I love it. I'm like,
(24:30):
that's with it. It's my art form. I never found
a way to connect, you know, like I have professional
artists in my family, and I just never did. And
now it's like there's something about the embroidery, right that,
like just it just scratches an itch in my brain
of like doing something repetitive, but I'm making something beautiful.
But there's I'm not entering this anywhere. I'm not you're
(24:52):
student for you, I'm not putting this on any resumes,
is not going on LinkedIn yet. I think often our
fourteen or fifteen year olds are like anything I do
has to be like something I can put on, you know,
a college application, or if they're not thinking that way
because they're thinking about a different route, they have friends
thinking that way, and so it kind of creates this
(25:13):
environment where it's you know this, this can be so competitive,
and I feel like one of the freedoms of you know,
kind of the stage of life for me, you know,
is being like what do I love? And I think
that me tapping into that is good for my kids,
right Like, Yeah, I tell everybody I'm so proud of
(25:34):
that I picked up boxing a year ago, not other people,
just a bag. I go to boxing classes. I never
thought i'd do anything like boxing, Like if you told
me ten years ago, I love it. I have never
been stronger physically. It's fun, it's you know, you're learning
patterns and so that's kind of a fun like brain
thing for me. You know, it's a woman instructor. So
(25:56):
it feels really empowering. My kids make fun of me
all the time. Doesn't have boxing gloves in the car,
and I love that they do because they know that
their mom is doing something new, right, and they're going
to remember that. They're going to remember that their mom
was like, I'm doing something just for me. I'm putting
on my boxing gloves as a middle aged lady and
(26:16):
I'm pounding a bag. And so you know, this is
where me like you always have to have sense humor
with ad lessons and being like okay, yeah, but you know,
like just watch out, I'm gonna be able to beat
you at our wrestling soon, right right.
Speaker 2 (26:29):
Yeah. It's modeling. It's modeling for our kids, doing something
for yourself, taking care of yourself, finding joy and things
that aren't competitive, right that you're just doing for you.
These grandma hobbies are regulating. There's a rhythm and that
is regulating. It regulates our nervous system. I did see
(26:50):
an article in the last couple of weeks talking about
sort of the science behind it and why it's catching
on and people are enjoying it, and it's all about
the nervous system, and it's amazing. It's amazing that we
continue to learn more about our nervous system and tap
into it, because really it's sort of the guiding its
guiding the ship. Right.
Speaker 1 (27:10):
Yeah, I so straight threat that somebody had put out
that was basically you know, with people saying, oh, where
was the autism you know, all these years ago, and
they're like, so have you seen all like the amazing
quilts that were made in the making this well perfrectly
precise and cutton stitch coming right now, right right, we
just have out's for it.
Speaker 2 (27:31):
Yeah. But I think to the sense of AWE regulates
our nervous system, right, And you talked early on about
there being connection within this, which I had never thought about.
Speaker 1 (27:44):
Yeah. So a couple of fun studies here. There's a
man named Craig Anderson, and he's a professor of psychology.
I mean, he was doing his grad work at UC
Berkeley and a lot of this research comes out of
u C. Berkeley. He took people on whitewater rafting trips,
and he took two groups. In particular, he took young
con veterans, and he took local high schoolers who had,
you know, witnessed community violence, right, so they had been
(28:06):
kind of a high pressure. So turns out the high
schoolers actually had higher degrees of PTSD symptoms than the
combat veterans, which is its own story. But you know,
what they did was their saliva samples before and after
these trips, and then these questionneers then for the next
six weeks, and the levels of stress hormone in the
blood dropped after this time in nature, and then six
(28:30):
weeks later they self reported lower levels of PTSD symptoms.
And part of that with sensory regulation is that these things,
with all our very, they involve the senses, right, they
involve seeing something hearing it, but not sensory overload. And
(28:50):
so you know, there's this interesting research about how time
and nature can help restore our attention and our executive
function skills. It's called attention rest duration theory. I talk
about that too in the book. It's some cool research,
but the idea is like when you are focused, that
drains your attention battery. We only have so much of it,
and some of us at varying degrees of it. But
(29:11):
being in nature our brain is still active, right, So
think of like your phone is still on while it's charging.
It's still active, but it's effortless versus effort full. Right.
The birds song, the wind in your face, the smell
of the fresh cut grass, it's stimulating, but it's helping
restore your attention capacities.
Speaker 2 (29:34):
Love that.
Speaker 1 (29:34):
So, you know, they found that going outside and just
kind of being right, not on your phone, just being
outside even for five minutes, can help you focus when
you then return to whatever the work is. So these
things that are sensory, and you know, and for me,
I like the going outside because I'm not great at meditation,
like you know, I'm too fidgety for that. And so
(29:57):
for me, what walking is kind of my regulation meditation.
It's seeing taking my deep breasts while I'm active, while
I'm moving. You know, I find embroideries very similar, Like
the repetition of it allows my brain just to kind
of you know, zone and you know, when you find
something that brings awe and wonder and that has a
(30:18):
bit of that again, that can just help with regulating,
you know, that kind of sense of peace. They even found,
like they did these studies of preschoolers and that they
took the swabus alive before and after arts classes, art
and music, and their stress levels of these kids, you know,
we're lower after arts classes. So you think about like
(30:41):
arts funding in schools, right, like these are sometimes the
things that can help kids find their passion but also
just improve their wellness.
Speaker 2 (30:51):
Deal with all that pressure. Yeah, right, we need those
those moments of downtime in education for that rejuvenile.
Speaker 1 (31:00):
And just beauty. Right, Like if you're just if you
had a chance to draw or play a song or
listen to music, you're just tapping into your senses and
tapping into the beauty. So mm hmm.
Speaker 2 (31:11):
There's a reason there's art therapy and music therapy, equine therapy. Yeah,
there's a reason for sure.
Speaker 1 (31:20):
So now all those altimate therapy is like they're all
attached to wonder and all, aren't they. Right? You know,
one of my former students I interviewed for the book,
and she's just got a degree in music therapy, and
she talks about doing a drum circle at a soup
kitchen and just in that kind of sense of almost
collective effer venzas everybody was there, they were drumming together
(31:41):
and it just kind of created these goosebumps for everybody. Yes, right,
and so you know it's like these are these such
connective moments, right that they just connect us to other people.
Speaker 2 (31:52):
Mm hmm. We actually here, I live in Asheville, North Carolina.
We have a weekly drum circle downtown in this little
tiny triangle park and it's been going on for more
than twenty years that I've been here. It's probably been
going on for several decades. And yeah, just seeing it,
(32:12):
like even if I just see a photograph of it,
I get that awe of like this collective. But I
also have a thing with heavy drum beats. It really
soothes me. Like if I get super stressed out, I
play Radioheads song that they played at the Grammys with
the Marching Band, right, and like it's so much drum
(32:34):
and rhythm and it really just knocks out that dysregulation.
It just soothes me. I listened to it so much
after the hurricane came through here and we were so stressed.
I just like started my day. I would play that
video a couple times before I did anything else because
I just needed like that settle. But the rhythm of Yeah,
(32:55):
so a drum circle provides so many different aspects of goosies,
like just thinking about it.
Speaker 1 (33:02):
And I love that you said that, like you that
you've listened to it kind of multiple times, because I
think this is somewhere else where we can help our kids,
right as if we've noticed something that is helping them
regulate and find that kind of you know, big wonder,
Like it's okay to do that over and over, right
if they have a song or a piece of art,
or an activity or a smell, right Like, you know,
(33:27):
I think one of the things you learned by being
a parent is like sometimes repetition is just what you need.
And so you know, helping find the thing that's part
of their toolbox, right, Like I know that this helps,
and that you know there's your standard toolbox of like
your breathing. Right then we talk about like strategy toolbox,
(33:47):
but I think all of us and our kids would
need our own like my Deborah toolbox. And my Deborah
toolbox may include my box and gloves, it may include
my embroidery, It may include you know, a certain song
that I know will give me goosebumps every single time
I listen to it, right, yeah, And like these things
that I know are going to fill me up and
(34:10):
give me that spark that I know is good for me.
And so, you know, rather than just like sticking with
your traditional toolbox like expand it to you know, that
box of things that makes your kid your kid.
Speaker 2 (34:24):
I love it. It all starts with noticing, noticing when
sparks them. So what would be the first next step
for parents listening they've listened to this conversation, what can
they do next to try to foster and provide opportunities
for on wonder for their kids?
Speaker 1 (34:42):
So for me, studying and researching AWE was the metaphor
I use is like getting a clear prescription for glasses.
It's not that it's any radical change in my life.
It's not that you know, I have a script I
need to use or I need to go to this class.
It's more, I think the first step for me was
(35:05):
beginning to ask my own questions and tune myself in
to what brings me aw and wonder and to communicate
that more intentionally to you know, look for moments where
maybe Saturday with not much going on, where I know
that sometimes novel experiences bring wonder, like seeing something you
(35:26):
haven't seen before. So last weekend, there was a tulip
festival about twenty minutes away. I'd never been. My kids
were not super excited about going, but I was like,
you know what, we'll go get appliable afterwards, so that
convinces them, you know. And we went and we had
(35:46):
to wander through these gardens to get to it, and
my son was like, this is so cool. And there
was a pond and we saw some tadpoles and it
was only like a forty five minute thing, and they
picked their own tulips when we went back, but it
absolutely like the end of it. They were like, we
could do this next year, right, like okay when? And
so sometimes it's like experimenting and trying something local, cheap, new,
(36:09):
you know. Sometimes again it's like this kind of wandering
into places or things you haven't done before, like let's
let's try this. Let's let's go do something new. She
wanted to go thrifting, and I was like, okay, you
find the spot. And we stumbled upon this incredible old mill,
like at thirty minutes of our house that had been
turned into this like secondhand treasure and we literally had
(36:32):
our like mels open for two hours going through this
place where like we didn't know this existed. And I
think that you know, these small things of just paying
attention to what brings the goosebumps, and then when you
start paying attention, you start wanting more of them, Like
(36:54):
that's becoming an awe seeker. And you do it yourself
and then you tune in with your kids. And so
this is not a prescriptive parenting book at all. There's
no like use this language. Yeah, really about Here's a
framework for an idea you may an emotion you may
not have thought a lot about. And it's got some
(37:14):
beautiful stories and a lot of good research, and you know,
I feel like it just might spark something for somebody
to say, oh, yeah, I used to love getting the
telescope out. I have never done that with my kids.
Maybe I'm going to go pull out the telescope.
Speaker 2 (37:31):
So much goodness, I think we could talk and swap
all experiences all day. It feels so good to do that.
My nervous system is feeling super chill right now. It's
so fun to think about all these things. Let everybody
know where they can find you online.
Speaker 1 (37:48):
Yes, so if you go to parenthood three sixty five
dot com. So parenthood three sixty five. That's also my
sub stuck and my Instagram. So if parent at three
six five will take you to all my channels. And
the book Raising All Seekers comes out May twenty seventh
and is available everywhere.
Speaker 2 (38:05):
So awesome. I can't wait to read it. I'm so excited.
I'm happy for you for this book and all the
work that you do is just amazing, and I'm so appreciative.
Speaker 1 (38:15):
Oh, I'm appreciative of you. I mean, I love I
love your podcast, I love your work, I love talking
to you to know.
Speaker 2 (38:22):
Awesome. So I am going to link up your website
and all of that good stuff in the show notes
for this episode. You can find those at PARENTINGADHD and
Autism dot com slash three one three per episode three
hundred and thirteen, and I will see everybody next time.
Take good care. Thanks for joining me on the Beautifully
(38:44):
Complex podcast. If you enjoyed this episode, please subscribe and share,
and don't forget to check out my online courses and
parent coaching at PARENTINGADHD and Autism dot com and at
the Behavior Revolution dot com
When you are focused, that drains your attention battery. We
only have so much of it, and some of us
have varying degrees of it. But being in nature, our
brain is still active, right, So think of like your
phone is still on while it's charging. I GE's still active,
but it's effortless versus effort full. Right. The birds song,
the wind in your face, it's stimulating, but it's helping
(00:27):
restore your attention capacities.
Speaker 2 (00:30):
Welcome to the Beautifully Complex podcast, where I share insights
and strategies on parenting neurodivergent kids straight from the trenches.
I'm your host, Penny Williams. I'm a parenting coach, author
and mindset mama, honored to guide you on the journey
of raising your atypical kid. Let's get started. Hi, everyone,
(00:54):
welcome back to Beautifully Complex. I am really thrilled to
have Denverra Farmer Chris back with me, who I always
love to chat with. We have the most amazing conversations
about compassion, empathy and the way kids should feel and
how we help them feel these amazing ways, and I
just I always look forward to our conversations, and today
(01:16):
we're going to talk about awe and wonder because you
have a new book coming out called Raising All Seekers, right,
and so I'm really excited to talk about this because
i feel like I have so much awe and wonder
and I feel like my kids have none, and I
feel like sometimes I feel them in that way, and
so I'm really excited to talk about how we can
(01:38):
help defoster these senses and our kids. Will you start,
Deborah before we jump in and let everybody know who
you are and what you do.
Speaker 1 (01:46):
Sure, So I'm Deborah from Chris and I'm a child
development expert. So i spent twenty years in the classroom.
I've written many picture books and board books. I work
for PBS Kids, as I talked with Penny about in
an earlier episode. I'm an advisor for Carl the Collector
on Previous Kids, which is so near and dear to
my heart. And this is my first parenting book coming out.
(02:07):
But I've been a parenting journalist for a decade, and
I feel like everything kind of coalesced around this topic
of awe and wonder, and I've spent four years ready
and I'm still excited about it. So that's how you
know you found something you care about right.
Speaker 2 (02:21):
Absolutely, yeah. And we were chatting before we started recording
about the fact that we have a lot of awe
and wonder about natural beauty. Maybe we're both tree lovers.
I think trees are all these artistic sculptures, and I
just feel amazing when I look at trees. I have
photographs of all different trees in my house, like it's
(02:43):
a thing. My family makes fun of me, it's a thing,
But I have this sense like when I see things
still that they're beautiful and they are somewhat magical almost,
that they exist, and that we get to enjoy them.
What is the science behind maybe awe and wonder? Where
(03:04):
do we start so we can sort of unpack, like
where does this come from?
Speaker 1 (03:08):
Well, first of all, like that is such a gift
that you feel that, because not only is it a
wonderful feeling, it turns out that awe and wonder are
related to so many benefits for ourselves and our kids.
And I kind of stumbled upon this research. I've stumbled
upon it during the pandemic. And the story, and it's
a very real story, goes that I had been asked
(03:32):
by a school to come give a parenting presentation on
resilience and stress. And this was Fallow twenty twenty one,
and like something inside me broke. I was like, I'm
resilienced out. I have resilience to myself for eighteen months
right during this pandemic and my kids at home, and
I was like, I really just want to talk about
something more hopeful, and I wanted to pitch something, but
(03:54):
I wasn't sure what. And I somehow stumbled down the
rabbit hole of AWE research and I came up across
this white paper and it has twenty plus years of
like real research by psychologists at TAP the universities behind it.
And what they've found is that the simplest way to
define it, right is you know you're feeling it. It
(04:15):
might be the goosebumps, the tears spring into your eyes
when you just look at something and say wow, right,
or the whole crowd goes wow because we all feel that.
And for kids, for me, it's often like when their
eyes grow wide. That's a sign to me that they're
feeling that sense of wonder. And you know, it turns
out it correlates with mental wellness, with even decreases in
(04:38):
inflammation and stress levels in the blood and in saliva.
It correlates with academics because when you're curious about something,
when there's like this wow moment, it primes the brain
to learn. And so all of these outcomes we want
for kids. There's some incredible stories about how you know
ahe makes steady participants, more generous, more willing to share
(05:02):
with strangers. It helps us feel connected, more connected to
the community. So if you think about almost every good
thing you want for your kids, like aw can be
one of those things that helps support that. And the
other piece is like, it's not something you have to
feel all the time, but when you do feel it
right like, this is why I call it raising AWE secrets.
(05:24):
It's almost like I just want to kind of put
myself and my kids in the path where I could,
you know, like if I'm going to take that walk outside,
I might, you know. So my book is structured around
these seven sources of AWE. Researchers have found that there
are basically seven major umbrellas where people report that they
(05:45):
feel this and we know we can talk more about
that later, and so I take each one of those
and we look at it from kind of a child
development perspective, and for all kinds of kids, and so
you know, this is I'm really I have a lot
of kid voices and teen voice is in this and
kids who find fascination in really different things, different things
(06:05):
than I might find fascination in. It's actually a in
the book, it was a high schooler who just waxes
on about how the Franklin Expedition, which she was completely
taken with for like three years, like hyper focus, what
that taught her about like humanity, and like it was
just it's just so cool and beautiful because I know
(06:27):
nothing about the Franklin Expedition, but like her awe and
wonder was inspiring.
Speaker 2 (06:32):
It's contagious. Yeah, yeah, that feeling. You may not have
the same awe about the same thing, but witnessing someone
else's awe is contagious. It makes us feel good. I
love to watch America's Got Talent for that exact reason
because I just got goosebumps just saying it. Because when
people have their moment, it makes me so happy to
(06:56):
see it. And so that's what i'd never or watch
like the last few where they pick a winner because
their awe is gone, like they're like, okay, I'm in it.
People like me. Right, it's a different experience. I like
watching when they first come out, they doubt themselves and
they get that win, right, and you can just see
(07:17):
them light up and have their moment, and it makes
me so happy. But I was thinking as you were talking,
like sometimes I think as a parent, we think that
there are certain things that create awe yea and that
our kids should have wonder and excitement about those same
certain things. And that's not necessarily the case, right, How
(07:38):
do we help our kids figure out what brings on
this emotion and this joy for them?
Speaker 1 (07:44):
You know, I think that's one of the great experiments
and one of the kind of guiding principles I have
throughout the book is this concept of radical curiosity. And
I think especially when you have, you know, kids who
are beautifully complex, being kind of radically curious about what
makes them tick, what them joy, what sparks their delight
is part of this journey that we're on. And so
(08:06):
you know, I remember being a mentor to a high
schooler and just high school as a tough time, was
not finding her people, and you know, just all of
those traditional struggles that many of our listeners will know well.
And I can't saying, you know, keep tapping into what
you love and when you get to college, you're going
to find like it's you're going to go there and
(08:29):
you serious stays trude to kind of tapping into your
you know, your own passions. And she got to college
and she emailed me two months into the air and said,
I did it, Like I found friends and I found
them in a bird watching club. Yeah, there was no
birdwatching club in high school. That wasn't part of the
American high school experience. But that was something you know
(08:50):
that it was like almost just trusting and finding that.
So one thing I find helpful in the research is
when I saw these categories of awe this that was
just a really helpful framework for me as a person
and as a parent. So I'll just share them with
your listener.
Speaker 2 (09:05):
Yeah, so I'm very curious.
Speaker 1 (09:06):
I think the most obvious is nature, and especially in springtime.
It's actually this is the time year I feel like
I can actually get my kids tapped into it. Because
my son, who seems to sometimes pay zero attention to
the outdoors, he was completely captivated by the cherry blossoms
at Headlake Bloom Because you know, winter's long in New
England and he was like, we need a plant cherry tree.
(09:27):
I was like, okay, we can put that on our
list in the next couple of years to plant this tree.
So nature, right, like you know, the beautiful sunset. And
I'm a person who will pull my kids. I'm the
one who will say come out and see the sunset.
And I'll make them and they'll look for twelve seconds
and they'll go back inside.
Speaker 2 (09:42):
Right.
Speaker 1 (09:42):
But it's like I feel like they're going to remember
their mom is the person who said come see the sunset,
just the way I start my book by telling a
story of my father pulling me awake out of bed
at two am to go see the meteor shower. Right.
And you know my dad who struggled it many ways
to connect. You know, my dad was on spectrum and
(10:03):
he was fascinated though by everything science, and so every
time there's a meteor shower, my mind goes to my
dad and that is a beautiful core memory. Did I
express that at that age? Did I grumble? Probably? Right?
So nature provides that. Then there's art, right, and that
can be traditional art, that can be a really cool
(10:25):
big mural, can also be architecture like walking in to
a rotunda or a cathedral, or seeing a skyline that
you've never seen before, you know, being fascinated by how
a train is made or a submarine, and all of
those pieces go into it music making music, And I
(10:45):
feel like my music chapter has more kids and parents
who are neurodivergent than any other because it seems to
be such a language for speaking and connecting. And so
one of my favorite stories there is from a friend
whose son wandered into the wrong classroom when he was
in second grade and there was a mandolin and he
(11:07):
began to pluck it, and when the teacher walked in,
rather than reprimanding him, noticed that he seemed to have
an incredible ear for it. He was tuning it, and
he seemed to have perfect pitch. And that has sent
him down. I mean it is not saying middle of
high school were rough and hard for so many reasons,
but like he plays in a professional jazz band mandolin
(11:28):
player in college now, and that amazing teacher, right, Like
seeing that like created that the next one's big ideas,
and that is just being fascinated by anything, right, the
big questions that we have and that you know, most
great discoveries and ideas and inventions come because somebody had
a big question. And I think so many of our
(11:49):
kids have really amazing questions about the world and kind
of tapping into those and using those and talk more
about this later, but like using those as a springboard
for other learning, like tapping into where the hyper interest
might be as a way to kind of, you know,
find a springboard and other things. The next one is
the feeling of belonging or collective effort vescence. That means
(12:12):
like you're part of a group that's doing something together
that's good. And that might be as simple as like
being at a sports gain that you're rooting along and
you're all cheering. It could be being part of a choir,
could be being part of a D and D club
right where you're all on a campaign together. And then
there's its experiences with life and death and so the
(12:33):
awe when you see a brand new puppy, right like
if you give a sixteen year old a kid and
their face is going to turn into a childlike face.
But then also experiences with the other side of the spectrum,
and those questions and moments take kind of sacred moments
with loss and death. And then the final one which
gets me so excited is that it turns out that
(12:55):
the most common source of awe for humans, they report
feeling it when they witness or hear about other people
being kind and brave. Now I find that super hopeful
with like in our world right now is that we
are super inspired by good stories. Like you know, you
hear a story of somebody doing something brave or kind,
(13:18):
you get those goosebumps. And so one of the ways
that this book has changed my parenting is that I
am on the lookout for a story to tell my
kids organically. So I'm on the lookout for our news
story or a something happened in the neighborhood, and maybe
I share it on the way home, maybe I text
(13:39):
it to them and be like, oh my gosh, this
story right. And just so that I am feeding some
of those counteractive you know, measures that say this is
a beautiful world full of beautiful people. Yes, it's messy,
Yes there's pain, there are people doing terrible things, but
also everywhere you look there's beauty. So that scaffolding helps
(14:03):
me Because you may have a kid who's so not
into art and like nature, they feel allergic to it,
but they may be super into music and that can
be a source of offer them.
Speaker 2 (14:13):
Yeah, as you just listed those categories and talked about them,
I sort of had this highlight reel of visuals going
through my mind. I want to know all the things
that I have had awe Like architecture. It's one of
the reasons I love New York City. And you know,
there's a place in Central Park where you go under
(14:34):
this bridge and I discovered it by mistake on a
trip there one time, and it is magical. The whole
thing is painted and there's all these curves and it's
so like Art Deco and just magical. And it felt
even more so because it's like this little hidden gym
(14:55):
where if you don't know it's there, you don't know
it's there, you may not stumble on it. Like music
and the connection with neurodivergence. My husband and my son
both are gifted in music and both are neurodivergent, and
you know, music is a huge part of really getting
through the day to day honestly for them. Yeah, and
(15:18):
so every category, like I was thinking of these things,
and I share those stories all the time with my
kids too, and they're in their twenties now, and they're like, hey, whatever,
you know, they don't want to hear anything I have
to say usually, but I'm still trying to share my
all and wonder with them and help them to find theirs.
One thought that I had too as you were talking
(15:40):
is we need to notice when they are experiencing these feelings, right.
We need to notice it. We need to call attention
to it, because I would imagine that that helps to
foster more of those kind of experiences. Would you agree
with that? I would?
Speaker 1 (15:59):
You know? In one reason and I like being able
to name it as a feeling is because I feel
like if you can't name something, it's hard to seek it, right.
And so you know, if you think about like kind
of feeling peaceful or mindful, you start paying attention to
kind of what that feels like in your body. But
if you're thinking, like, you know that goosebump moment, like
(16:19):
I remember I've had that moment, and then you're like, oh, okay,
so that's awe, and then you can start paying attention
to what brings that for you. And I think, as
you know, as kids are older, that's a great conversation.
When they're younger, it's also just it helps, you know,
for me like where to steer a little bit, especially
when they're going through all those phases where everything stupid
(16:40):
or maybe they loved something and now they just don't
write because you have a sixth grader. You know, like
when my Loos is in sixth grade, every interest was
like I'm quitting girl Scouts and quitting piano, I'm quitting
this and quitting horseback riding, and there was nothing left right,
and so it's kind of you know, I'm just like, okay,
so what seems to spark, you know, art seem to
(17:02):
spark a little bit. So it was like maybe we'd
kind of dabble in like one art class, right, like
just experiment and run one one mile together race, right,
just to see if running could be something they could
be interesting and and just to start paying attention to
what sparked and you know, nurture that knowing it can
(17:23):
shift again and that that's okay, right. I think sometimes
as parents we get kind of locked in too, like
you know, but we've put so much time and money
into soccer and now they don't want to play, and
that's okay. I mean at some point, right, like it's
not that you want them to give up everything. Sometimes
you're like, I've paid for the semester, you're taking the
piano lessons. But sometimes you got to pay attention to
(17:44):
like are you doing most of the pushing right? At
some point? It's the intrinsic motivation that is so much
of AWE is like, I want to do this because
that helps you do anyone it's hard, right, Like one
of my kids did piano dutifully but never loved it.
And then finally, you know, it was like, Okay, that's
not your thing and joined a theater troupe and was like,
oh I love this. And then you know, my other
(18:06):
kid like discovered a great team. We found a great
teacher for piano. The first one was a great fit.
And this one kind of gets his very expansive, creative,
beautifully complex mind and teaches him to it and he
loves it. And so he will practice for hours without
me asking. And so he was willing to do the
(18:27):
hard thing, the practice, because it sparks that and so
I'm going to nurture that, and you know, it's and
that's the dance of parenthood. But having the lens for
me of kind of knowing that awe and wonder is
that little thing that makes life a little more fun
and fulfilling has been helpful in this kind of you know,
(18:50):
being parent of adolescence phase that I'm.
Speaker 2 (18:52):
In right now, I think really nurturing that curiosity for
all of us, Like what is it that sparks joy
for you? Is it piano or is it not? Like
there's this push and pull for us as parents. We
(19:14):
know that there are things that are beneficial. We want
our kids to have experiences, We want them to maybe
learn that you have to really practice at something in
order to succeed in it, whatever it might be, the
lesson within it. And then on the other hand, it's like, well,
we really want them to be happy and have joy,
and what if piano is not doing that right?
Speaker 1 (19:36):
Well, it was actually that her teacher who said this
amazing for both of who said to her, you know,
I know you're practicing, but I've yet to see you
love this.
Speaker 2 (19:45):
Do you?
Speaker 1 (19:46):
Is this how you want to spend your time? And
she was like not really? And so her teacher talked
to me because I was like non negotiable to lighth grade. Yeah,
that was one of mine, Like, because that's what I
did by my mom was like you can quit when
you hit eighth grade. And I was like, okay, well,
you know, you know, I know she will practice like
she's responsible, but maybe there's something else that's in the
(20:06):
arts that you know, might be more fulfilling. And it's
not that one path isn't the only path. And I
think that's you know, so important for kids. I had
this great conversation with a woman named Natalie Bunner and
she's a family therapist in Louisiana, and we're talking about
belonging and you know, and that kind of struggle sometimes
(20:27):
to find your people. And she said one of the
things she works with a lot with parents on that
issue is when they kind of have a narrow view
of where their child should find belonging, like you know,
they need to be part of the sports club. They're
going to find it through sports, right, or they're going
to find it through blank And she said, we have
to just really widen our possibilities for where they might
(20:49):
find that, right And so you know, maybe it's through
a robotics club, maybe it's through but being able to
identify an interest can help you identify a group where
you might find more feelings of belonging. I thought that
was a wise piece of advice.
Speaker 2 (21:05):
Yeah, absolutely, you said a couple of things that sparked
for me. One is the robotics club. That's where my
own kid in seventh grade finally found his tribe. But
also I keep coming back to this idea too of
pressure and how difficult that is for our kids and
how much it sort of turns them off to things. So,
(21:29):
you know, and maybe this is more about those teachers,
those piano teachers. You know, it was one like super
rigid and you must do this and there's a lot
of pressure, and then another might be more free with it,
and you know, do it in your own way, right
instead of my way. I'm just the piano. It is
(21:49):
just an example. But like when robotics got super pressurized
because they did competitions, wasn't is into it anymore? Right?
Speaker 1 (21:59):
I'm watching this with so many kids. You know, My
kids are in kind of the middle school ones enter
high school where they're there and haven't been involved as
much with kind of the kind of the sports and
dance and gymnastics. But all their friends are facing this
challenge right now of if I'm going to stick with gymnastics,
you're on the competitive team, but some of them don't
(22:21):
want to be competitive, They just like doing it. And
I'm I think about how do we create these spaces
for kids where it's not about specializing, Like, what's the
space for the kid who's just like I want to
go and just do the bars and the routine, but
I don't want to be every weekend at a competition somewhere,
you know. And I think of that kind of pressure
we put on like travel teams for kids on supports, yes,
(22:43):
And I think that's on parents, and that's on teachers
to say, how do we make space There are some
kids will thrive with that competition, but not everybody, you know,
for the ones that just want to enjoy making a
robot and have fun doing that.
Speaker 2 (22:58):
Yeah. Yeah, My daughter was way into softball. She started it,
I don't know, age eight, probably seven, maybe, loved it,
loved it, loved it. As soon as she got to
middle school and she got on the middle school team,
she did not love it anymore because it was competitive.
At that point you performed or you got yelled at,
(23:20):
or you had to run labs or you know, and
it just wasn't And now as a young adult, she
keeps looking for a place to play because she's still
craves playing, but for fun, not for winning or you know,
this high pressure competition. I think that happens so so
often to our kids in one way or another. We
(23:44):
put so much emphasis on performance instead of just like
joy and wonder and experience and journey. Right, Like, if
you're really into something, provide the opportunity for your kid
in that area if they're into it, and then watch
the journey, let it unfold.
Speaker 1 (24:04):
Does it need to lead to a medal or a
title or a scholarship?
Speaker 2 (24:08):
Right?
Speaker 1 (24:09):
You know when you hear them from kids of leg
you see that. You know, the research shows that hobbies
really drop off in middle school. I've been laughing at
you know, there seems to be a lot of kind
of news stories recently about kind of millennial women picking
up grandma hobbies. Yes, I'm lay because I picked up
embroidery in the last year and I love it. I'm like,
(24:30):
that's with it. It's my art form. I never found
a way to connect, you know, like I have professional
artists in my family, and I just never did. And
now it's like there's something about the embroidery, right that,
like just it just scratches an itch in my brain
of like doing something repetitive, but I'm making something beautiful.
But there's I'm not entering this anywhere. I'm not you're
(24:52):
student for you, I'm not putting this on any resumes,
is not going on LinkedIn yet. I think often our
fourteen or fifteen year olds are like anything I do
has to be like something I can put on, you know,
a college application, or if they're not thinking that way
because they're thinking about a different route, they have friends
thinking that way, and so it kind of creates this
(25:13):
environment where it's you know this, this can be so competitive,
and I feel like one of the freedoms of you know,
kind of the stage of life for me, you know,
is being like what do I love? And I think
that me tapping into that is good for my kids,
right Like, Yeah, I tell everybody I'm so proud of
(25:34):
that I picked up boxing a year ago, not other people,
just a bag. I go to boxing classes. I never
thought i'd do anything like boxing, Like if you told
me ten years ago, I love it. I have never
been stronger physically. It's fun, it's you know, you're learning
patterns and so that's kind of a fun like brain
thing for me. You know, it's a woman instructor. So
(25:56):
it feels really empowering. My kids make fun of me
all the time. Doesn't have boxing gloves in the car,
and I love that they do because they know that
their mom is doing something new, right, and they're going
to remember that. They're going to remember that their mom
was like, I'm doing something just for me. I'm putting
on my boxing gloves as a middle aged lady and
(26:16):
I'm pounding a bag. And so you know, this is
where me like you always have to have sense humor
with ad lessons and being like okay, yeah, but you know,
like just watch out, I'm gonna be able to beat
you at our wrestling soon, right right.
Speaker 2 (26:29):
Yeah. It's modeling. It's modeling for our kids, doing something
for yourself, taking care of yourself, finding joy and things
that aren't competitive, right that you're just doing for you.
These grandma hobbies are regulating. There's a rhythm and that
is regulating. It regulates our nervous system. I did see
(26:50):
an article in the last couple of weeks talking about
sort of the science behind it and why it's catching
on and people are enjoying it, and it's all about
the nervous system, and it's amazing. It's amazing that we
continue to learn more about our nervous system and tap
into it, because really it's sort of the guiding its
guiding the ship. Right.
Speaker 1 (27:10):
Yeah, I so straight threat that somebody had put out
that was basically you know, with people saying, oh, where
was the autism you know, all these years ago, and
they're like, so have you seen all like the amazing
quilts that were made in the making this well perfrectly
precise and cutton stitch coming right now, right right, we
just have out's for it.
Speaker 2 (27:31):
Yeah. But I think to the sense of AWE regulates
our nervous system, right, And you talked early on about
there being connection within this, which I had never thought about.
Speaker 1 (27:44):
Yeah. So a couple of fun studies here. There's a
man named Craig Anderson, and he's a professor of psychology.
I mean, he was doing his grad work at UC
Berkeley and a lot of this research comes out of
u C. Berkeley. He took people on whitewater rafting trips,
and he took two groups. In particular, he took young
con veterans, and he took local high schoolers who had,
you know, witnessed community violence, right, so they had been
(28:06):
kind of a high pressure. So turns out the high
schoolers actually had higher degrees of PTSD symptoms than the
combat veterans, which is its own story. But you know,
what they did was their saliva samples before and after
these trips, and then these questionneers then for the next
six weeks, and the levels of stress hormone in the
blood dropped after this time in nature, and then six
(28:30):
weeks later they self reported lower levels of PTSD symptoms.
And part of that with sensory regulation is that these things,
with all our very, they involve the senses, right, they
involve seeing something hearing it, but not sensory overload. And
(28:50):
so you know, there's this interesting research about how time
and nature can help restore our attention and our executive
function skills. It's called attention rest duration theory. I talk
about that too in the book. It's some cool research,
but the idea is like when you are focused, that
drains your attention battery. We only have so much of it,
and some of us at varying degrees of it. But
(29:11):
being in nature our brain is still active, right, So
think of like your phone is still on while it's charging.
It's still active, but it's effortless versus effort full. Right.
The birds song, the wind in your face, the smell
of the fresh cut grass, it's stimulating, but it's helping
restore your attention capacities.
Speaker 2 (29:34):
Love that.
Speaker 1 (29:34):
So, you know, they found that going outside and just
kind of being right, not on your phone, just being
outside even for five minutes, can help you focus when
you then return to whatever the work is. So these
things that are sensory, and you know, and for me,
I like the going outside because I'm not great at meditation,
like you know, I'm too fidgety for that. And so
(29:57):
for me, what walking is kind of my regulation meditation.
It's seeing taking my deep breasts while I'm active, while
I'm moving. You know, I find embroideries very similar, Like
the repetition of it allows my brain just to kind
of you know, zone and you know, when you find
something that brings awe and wonder and that has a
(30:18):
bit of that again, that can just help with regulating,
you know, that kind of sense of peace. They even found,
like they did these studies of preschoolers and that they
took the swabus alive before and after arts classes, art
and music, and their stress levels of these kids, you know,
we're lower after arts classes. So you think about like
(30:41):
arts funding in schools, right, like these are sometimes the
things that can help kids find their passion but also
just improve their wellness.
Speaker 2 (30:51):
Deal with all that pressure. Yeah, right, we need those
those moments of downtime in education for that rejuvenile.
Speaker 1 (31:00):
And just beauty. Right, Like if you're just if you
had a chance to draw or play a song or
listen to music, you're just tapping into your senses and
tapping into the beauty. So mm hmm.
Speaker 2 (31:11):
There's a reason there's art therapy and music therapy, equine therapy. Yeah,
there's a reason for sure.
Speaker 1 (31:20):
So now all those altimate therapy is like they're all
attached to wonder and all, aren't they. Right? You know,
one of my former students I interviewed for the book,
and she's just got a degree in music therapy, and
she talks about doing a drum circle at a soup
kitchen and just in that kind of sense of almost
collective effer venzas everybody was there, they were drumming together
(31:41):
and it just kind of created these goosebumps for everybody. Yes, right,
and so you know it's like these are these such
connective moments, right that they just connect us to other people.
Speaker 2 (31:52):
Mm hmm. We actually here, I live in Asheville, North Carolina.
We have a weekly drum circle downtown in this little
tiny triangle park and it's been going on for more
than twenty years that I've been here. It's probably been
going on for several decades. And yeah, just seeing it,
(32:12):
like even if I just see a photograph of it,
I get that awe of like this collective. But I
also have a thing with heavy drum beats. It really
soothes me. Like if I get super stressed out, I
play Radioheads song that they played at the Grammys with
the Marching Band, right, and like it's so much drum
(32:34):
and rhythm and it really just knocks out that dysregulation.
It just soothes me. I listened to it so much
after the hurricane came through here and we were so stressed.
I just like started my day. I would play that
video a couple times before I did anything else because
I just needed like that settle. But the rhythm of Yeah,
(32:55):
so a drum circle provides so many different aspects of goosies,
like just thinking about it.
Speaker 1 (33:02):
And I love that you said that, like you that
you've listened to it kind of multiple times, because I
think this is somewhere else where we can help our kids,
right as if we've noticed something that is helping them
regulate and find that kind of you know, big wonder,
Like it's okay to do that over and over, right
if they have a song or a piece of art,
or an activity or a smell, right Like, you know,
(33:27):
I think one of the things you learned by being
a parent is like sometimes repetition is just what you need.
And so you know, helping find the thing that's part
of their toolbox, right, Like I know that this helps,
and that you know there's your standard toolbox of like
your breathing. Right then we talk about like strategy toolbox,
(33:47):
but I think all of us and our kids would
need our own like my Deborah toolbox. And my Deborah
toolbox may include my box and gloves, it may include
my embroidery, It may include you know, a certain song
that I know will give me goosebumps every single time
I listen to it, right, yeah, And like these things
that I know are going to fill me up and
(34:10):
give me that spark that I know is good for me.
And so, you know, rather than just like sticking with
your traditional toolbox like expand it to you know, that
box of things that makes your kid your kid.
Speaker 2 (34:24):
I love it. It all starts with noticing, noticing when
sparks them. So what would be the first next step
for parents listening they've listened to this conversation, what can
they do next to try to foster and provide opportunities
for on wonder for their kids?
Speaker 1 (34:42):
So for me, studying and researching AWE was the metaphor
I use is like getting a clear prescription for glasses.
It's not that it's any radical change in my life.
It's not that you know, I have a script I
need to use or I need to go to this class.
It's more, I think the first step for me was
(35:05):
beginning to ask my own questions and tune myself in
to what brings me aw and wonder and to communicate
that more intentionally to you know, look for moments where
maybe Saturday with not much going on, where I know
that sometimes novel experiences bring wonder, like seeing something you
(35:26):
haven't seen before. So last weekend, there was a tulip
festival about twenty minutes away. I'd never been. My kids
were not super excited about going, but I was like,
you know what, we'll go get appliable afterwards, so that
convinces them, you know. And we went and we had
(35:46):
to wander through these gardens to get to it, and
my son was like, this is so cool. And there
was a pond and we saw some tadpoles and it
was only like a forty five minute thing, and they
picked their own tulips when we went back, but it
absolutely like the end of it. They were like, we
could do this next year, right, like okay when? And
so sometimes it's like experimenting and trying something local, cheap, new,
(36:09):
you know. Sometimes again it's like this kind of wandering
into places or things you haven't done before, like let's
let's try this. Let's let's go do something new. She
wanted to go thrifting, and I was like, okay, you
find the spot. And we stumbled upon this incredible old mill,
like at thirty minutes of our house that had been
turned into this like secondhand treasure and we literally had
(36:32):
our like mels open for two hours going through this
place where like we didn't know this existed. And I
think that you know, these small things of just paying
attention to what brings the goosebumps, and then when you
start paying attention, you start wanting more of them, Like
(36:54):
that's becoming an awe seeker. And you do it yourself
and then you tune in with your kids. And so
this is not a prescriptive parenting book at all. There's
no like use this language. Yeah, really about Here's a
framework for an idea you may an emotion you may
not have thought a lot about. And it's got some
(37:14):
beautiful stories and a lot of good research, and you know,
I feel like it just might spark something for somebody
to say, oh, yeah, I used to love getting the
telescope out. I have never done that with my kids.
Maybe I'm going to go pull out the telescope.
Speaker 2 (37:31):
So much goodness, I think we could talk and swap
all experiences all day. It feels so good to do that.
My nervous system is feeling super chill right now. It's
so fun to think about all these things. Let everybody
know where they can find you online.
Speaker 1 (37:48):
Yes, so if you go to parenthood three sixty five
dot com. So parenthood three sixty five. That's also my
sub stuck and my Instagram. So if parent at three
six five will take you to all my channels. And
the book Raising All Seekers comes out May twenty seventh
and is available everywhere.
Speaker 2 (38:05):
So awesome. I can't wait to read it. I'm so excited.
I'm happy for you for this book and all the
work that you do is just amazing, and I'm so appreciative.
Speaker 1 (38:15):
Oh, I'm appreciative of you. I mean, I love I
love your podcast, I love your work, I love talking
to you to know.
Speaker 2 (38:22):
Awesome. So I am going to link up your website
and all of that good stuff in the show notes
for this episode. You can find those at PARENTINGADHD and
Autism dot com slash three one three per episode three
hundred and thirteen, and I will see everybody next time.
Take good care. Thanks for joining me on the Beautifully
(38:44):
Complex podcast. If you enjoyed this episode, please subscribe and share,
and don't forget to check out my online courses and
parent coaching at PARENTINGADHD and Autism dot com and at
the Behavior Revolution dot com
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