What if schools didn’t just accommodate neurodivergent kids, but celebrated them? In this heartfelt and eye-opening conversation with Amanda Morin and Emily Kircher-Morris, we dig into what it really means to create neurodiversity-affirming schools. From ditching moral judgments on behavior to prioritizing belonging over compliance, this episode is a must-listen for any parent or educator who wants more for our kids than just surviving school.
You’ll hear powerful personal stories, practical strategies, and a reminder that our children deserve to be seen, supported, and valued exactly as they are.
Tune in and discover how we can help create classrooms that don’t just teach, but transform lives.
You can find additional resources at parentingadhdandautism.com and Regulated Kids.com — because it’s not just about the struggles, it’s about progress, one step at a time.
Show notes and more resources at parentingadhdandautism.com/317
Become a supporter of this podcast: https://www.spreaker.com/podcast/beautifully-complex--6137613/support.
You’ll hear powerful personal stories, practical strategies, and a reminder that our children deserve to be seen, supported, and valued exactly as they are.
Tune in and discover how we can help create classrooms that don’t just teach, but transform lives.
You can find additional resources at parentingadhdandautism.com and Regulated Kids.com — because it’s not just about the struggles, it’s about progress, one step at a time.
Show notes and more resources at parentingadhdandautism.com/317
Become a supporter of this podcast: https://www.spreaker.com/podcast/beautifully-complex--6137613/support.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:01):
We need to make sure that our students have a
space where they feel comfortable, They feel like they have
a trusting relationship, they feel like they're not going to
be penalized for ways that they might show up that
maybe outside of the ways that they see their peers
showing up. And if they're thinking all of that through consistently, constantly,
(00:22):
if that's what's going through your head all the time,
you can't be doing multiplication tables because all of that
brain spaces are to being used wondering Am I doing
it well? Am I?
Speaker 2 (00:31):
Okay? Here, welcome to Beautifully Complex, where we unpack what
it really means to parent neurodivergent kids with dignity and clarity.
I'm Penny Williams, and I know firsthand how tough and
transformative this journey can be. Let's dive in and discover
how to raise regulated, resilient, beautifully complex kids together. Oh
(00:54):
and if you want more support, join our free community
at hub beautifully compt Life. Welcome back everybody to Beautifully Complex.
I have two lovely ladies with me today who I
have known for a long time. We've had lots of conversations.
(01:16):
They're always amazing and we're going to be talking about
creating neurodiversity firming schools, which is super important for all
of our kids, and I think all kids. But let's
start out, Amanda and Emily. Will you all start by
introducing yourselves. Let everybody know who you are and what
(01:36):
you do and about the book.
Speaker 1 (01:39):
Sure, I guess I will start. And it's always good
because we, you know, have all these female voices to
identify which one it is, right. So I'm Amanda Morin,
I'm an author, I'm a speaker, I'm a teacher. I'm
actually the incoming director of academic services at the at
Compass High School, which is solely for neurodivergent students, so
I'm excited about that. And I am a nerdivergent mother
(02:02):
to three neurodivergent kids, which I think is an important
part of this conversation as well.
Speaker 3 (02:07):
And I'm Emily Kurger Morris. I am a licensed professional
counselor and I support neurodivergent kids, teens and adults in
my mental health practice primarily, but I used to be
a teacher. I also worked as a school counselor previously.
And I'm also neurodivergent and I have three neurodivergent kids
(02:30):
as well, but kind of blending that mental health and
therapeutic side of things along with kind of that background
and education is kind of the work that I do.
I'm also the host of the Neurodiversity Podcast and have
written a couple of different books. Most recently, Amanda and
I co authored Neurodiversity Affirming Schools Transforming Practices so all
(02:52):
students feel accepted and supported.
Speaker 2 (02:54):
Awesome, and that's what we're going to talk about here
today in this conversation. I think a great place to
start is just defining explain for us, describe what does
a neurodiversity affirming school look like? What does it feel like?
Speaker 1 (03:09):
I love that you ask that in two different ways.
I really do, because I don't think that I don't
think we've been asked that in two different ways before.
And I'm going to start with the what it feels like,
because I think that's the piece that really sticks out
to me is it feels like everybody belongs right. And
I think that's an ambitious goal, but it's one that
we're really hoping to get to from all directions, you know, systemically,
(03:33):
classroom level, parentally, all of those kinds of things where
you can you the student, a kid can show up
in the classroom and feel like you can be the
version of yourself that you would be in any other way. Right,
so you belong you have the supports that you need
(03:53):
to be successful. There's no sort of moral judgment on
the way you show up your traits in any of
those neurodivergent sort of ways of being. I would start there, Emily,
what would you add.
Speaker 3 (04:07):
Yeah, I think that the second part of your question
about what it looks like is it looks like students
who are learning in ways that work best for them.
It looks like inclusion where you don't almost have to
even think about it because it's just what happens on
a day to day basis, where people are part of
(04:30):
the community and given opportunities to belong in that community
as opposed to trying to change themselves to fit in.
And I feel like, for a really long time, for
many reasons, neurodivergent kids, even if they've been part of
(04:50):
the classroom setting, that doesn't necessarily mean that they feel
like they have belonged there. So often, so many of
the traits that are near a divergent students show or experience.
Often they're viewed as disciplinary issues when really they're not.
They're often held perhaps to standards that are perhaps too
(05:12):
high or perhaps too low for them in particular areas,
and that can vary even based on the individual student.
And so when we create a neurodiversity affirming environment, like
Amanda said, it creates a space where everybody belongs. And
I think the other thing that I would just mention
here too is it's not always just about the students.
It's also about the teachers, because there are neurodivergent educators
(05:36):
as well who also sometimes need a space where they
can be authentically themselves.
Speaker 2 (05:43):
Yeah, what stood out to me from both of you
as who both use the word belonging and I was
hoping we could talk a little bit deeper about that.
What are the mental health emotional health benefits of having
a sense of belonging? And then on the flip side,
what is the risk when a kid doesn't feel like
(06:05):
they belong.
Speaker 3 (06:08):
So Brenne Brown has talked about this a few different places,
and I've kind of really latched onto it. I really
like how she describes the differences between fitting in and belonging.
And so when she talks about belonging, it really is
the opposite of fitting in. Fitting in, like I mentioned earlier,
is kind of changing yourself and belonging as being part
(06:32):
of a community. One of the main factors that research
shows contributes to a sense of belonging is feeling like
you have a voice in that community, that you have
something to offer, that you are a part of the process.
And so often the things that our neurodivergent students' experience
(06:57):
or need or whatever, they might actually not have the
opportunity to contribute, or might actively be told not to
contribute those things. Maybe they have a special interest, or
maybe they have a you know, a skill or a
need or whatever, and it's like no, no, keep that
on the outside. And so having that sense of belonging
though it influences a sense of self efficacy, it influences
(07:19):
a sense of autonomy, and all of those things are
part of the virtuous cycle towards achievement and success. And
so we really want to make sure that those things
are instilled in our classrooms and part of the structure
so that everybody has the opportunity to participate that lay.
Speaker 1 (07:37):
And I would add that belonging in that way I mean,
Emily just said that beautifully. And the only thing I
would add to that is when we talk about belonging,
I think we often think about when we're talking about classrooms,
we often think about belonging being, you know, keeping up
with the work, keeping up with the students, keeping up
with all of those things. But for me, belonging also
(07:58):
means there are other ways you can contribute, right. It
doesn't have to be about academic achievement. You know, you
don't have to be like the best student to belong
in a classroom that you belong in the entire sort
of ecosystem of the school. Are there clubs that you
feel comfortable in? Are there ways you can show up
on the playground That don't mean you have to conform
(08:21):
to like four square or I don't know what kids
do on the playground anymore.
Speaker 2 (08:24):
That was not right.
Speaker 1 (08:27):
You don't have to show up the way people expect
that it looks, but you still have a space there. Right,
If you want to walk laps around the playground during recess,
because that's how you sort of regulate your system, you
still belong because you have somebody who's going to walk
lapse with you, or something like that you know, So
I just think it's important to make clear belonging isn't
(08:49):
just about achieving the academic goals. It's about being welcomed
into all of the spaces in a school as well.
Speaker 2 (09:00):
It's really about the social emotional aspect of school, right,
which often we don't think about. We think about the academics.
We think about following the rules, right, your behavior, things
like that, and that social emotional piece is really very crucial, right.
Speaker 3 (09:19):
Yeah, yeah, you mentioned the social and emotional piece, and
I think it gets lost of a shuffle sometimes when
we think about academics. But the thing that you have
to remember is that, like, let's look at the long
term for our students, the messages that they receive and
the things that they internalize about themselves as students are
(09:42):
the things that they will carry with them through their lives.
Speaker 2 (09:45):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (09:45):
I know that's true for me, it's probably true for
both of you and everybody who's listening. And sometimes if
there's something you have to unlearn there, that's a lot
to try to unlearn those things. But if you feel
like you belove, if you feel like you have a voice,
if you feel like you can be successful, that puts
you on a trajectory as an adult to be able
(10:08):
to accomplish a lot of things that you may not
have even really thought about or that you wouldn't have
even attempted if you didn't have that experience of success
and whatever success means for each individual student, that might
also look different for different kids. You can't have that actualization,
that self actualization. I mean, if we think about like
(10:30):
Maslow right and that self actualization that at that top
of that pyramid, like you're not going to get there
without all of those social and emotional pieces also in playing.
Speaker 1 (10:41):
And also when we have kids who don't feel comfortable
in social emotional you know, space, like if they don't
feel like they belong, if they don't feel like they
can express themselves in a way that is authentic to them,
they're hyper vigilant, they're worried about all of the things
that are going on and how people are going to
react to them. They're not able to be available for learning.
(11:03):
And I think that's something that I stress over and
over again when I talk to parents, when I talk
to teachers, is we need to make sure that our
students have a space where they feel comfortable, they feel
like they have a trusting relationship. They feel like they're
not going to be you know, penalized for ways that
they might show up that maybe outside of the ways
(11:26):
that they see their peers showing up. And if they're
thinking all of that through consistently, constantly, if that's what's
going through your head all the time, you can't be
doing multiplication tables because all of that brain spaces aready
being used wondering am I doing it?
Speaker 2 (11:41):
Well?
Speaker 1 (11:41):
Am I okay?
Speaker 2 (11:42):
Here?
Speaker 1 (11:43):
So you know, I think that social emotional piece we
can't skip over it because when we do skip over it,
we're actually skipping over the foundation of how students are
able to learn.
Speaker 2 (11:55):
Yeah, I'm so glad you brought that up. Availability to
learn was something that I wish I had learned about
a lot sooner in my own kid's school journey, because
the more that he was dysregulated, the more that he
was hyper vigilant, as you mentioned, the more that he
didn't feel safe, he was not physiologically available to learn. Right,
(12:15):
that frontal lobe is inaccessible because the amigdala is sounding
the alarm. And so you know, sometimes when we stick
to these school rules of you know, butts and seats, right,
they have to be there. Well, if they're there but
they don't feel safe, they're not learning, what's the point
(12:36):
of that, right, Like, we have to focus on helping
kids feel safe in the classroom, in the environment, socially, emotionally, physically, right,
all the things in order for them to have that availability,
that opportunity, right, the opportunity to learn. That's part of
leveling that playing field. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (12:55):
Absolutely.
Speaker 2 (12:57):
I was thinking as you guys were talking about development
and trauma, developmental trauma, and the fact that kids pick
up a great deal of their self worth through their
school experiences, and I was hoping that you all could
talk a little bit about that and how we create
(13:17):
environments again that are neurodiversity affirming that help kids to say, Okay,
I don't look the same, I don't do things the
same way. I'm different, but I still have value. I
still am building some confidence and beyond what I would
think of is beyond belonging. Does that make sense? Yeah?
Speaker 1 (13:39):
Yeah, And for me it's you know, and I have value, right,
It's the not in spite of it's because of this,
I have value. A lot of our neurodivergent kids bring
such unique perspectives into the classroom, right, Yeah, they bring
such unique perspectives into life that I think part of
what matters when we're thinking about how do we make
(14:02):
neurodiversity of firming environments is making space for the fact
that it may not look like the way you expect
it to. Whatever it is, you know, the explaining the
math problem may look like the way you expect it to.
The approach to writing may not look like you expected to.
Any of those kinds of things may look different. I
had another train of thought that I lost speaking of
(14:23):
a neurodivergen smum Braine just went and a whole swing there.
But I think part of the thing that I would
say is giving kids the opportunity to show what they know,
not just in narrow ways.
Speaker 2 (14:39):
Right.
Speaker 1 (14:39):
So like and I don't even just mean like the
UDL component. I don't even just mean like multimodal. I mean,
like Emily mentioned special interest. For example, I was working
with a student the other day who was frustrated about
how other kids were sort of reacting to his interest
in Pokemon, right, and Pokemon is his thing, And so
(15:01):
I had him teach me all about Pokemon. I wanted
to understand all of the things that were frustrating him
that the other kids didn't know, and he came up
with like this graphic and this poster and all these things,
and he brought it into the school and he taught
his friends about it, and now it's working better.
Speaker 3 (15:19):
Right.
Speaker 1 (15:19):
So leaning in to the things that our kids know
and giving them an opportunity to really shine, you know,
it really contributes to self worth is acknowledging that you
have things that you know that you can teach other
people about too.
Speaker 3 (15:33):
Just building on what Amanda was saying about how things
might look different than what you expect. I think the
other part of that really is about recognizing that friendships
might look different, the drive to interact socially might look different.
And a big part of what a narratives do from
(15:53):
the school offers is the opportunity. Again, if we're allowing
people to be authentically themselves, we need to allow that.
So sometimes I'll hear parents or teachers who will make
statements like, well, they go out to recess and all
they want to do is bring their book outside to
recess with them, and they just want to sit there
and read and they don't want to interact. But they
(16:15):
really need the social skills, you know, they really need
to interact with their peers. And if we're honoring somebody's
experience and preferences, the bottom line is they're getting plenty
of social experience in the classroom. There's a lot of
group work that we do in school, like, there's a
lot of opportunities just for those general interactions. And if,
(16:39):
for example, that is that student's recess, should they be
allowed to read a book? I mean, I believe that
they should, that we should give them that option. And
I always put a caveat whenever I talk about this
and say, if for example, that student is actually reading
the book because they're anxious about interacting even though they
want to interact, like, that's different. We support that differently.
(17:00):
But we really need to be sure that we're listening
to what kids are saying and understanding what they really
want and need for themselves, again, as opposed to doing
anything that is just prescriptive, which I think is the
track we fall into.
Speaker 2 (17:17):
And I think there's another real benefit, for lack of
a better word at the moment, to neudiversity of earming
schools in that we are not traumatizing neudivergent kids while
they're at school, which is a very real thing.
Speaker 3 (17:33):
You know.
Speaker 2 (17:33):
I don't throw around the word trauma lately, but my
own kid was certainly traumatized at school. And I think,
you know, doctor Bruce Perry talked about in his book
that any marginalized individual is going to have traumatic experiences.
And to compound that, we're talking about traumatic experiences during development,
which can have lifelong negative impacts, right, and so one
(17:58):
of the crucial benefit here in my mind, is that
we are creating environments where kids are not going to
experience trauma. Not that we can say never or anything
like that, right, but in general, it's going at a
more affirming, accepting you belong here. Environment is going to
(18:21):
feel better, feel safer, and be less traumatic during that development,
which is so important.
Speaker 1 (18:28):
Yes, and I agree, and I'm thinking about my own
children and their experiences, and yeah, one of my children
had some very traumatic experiences at the beginning of his
school years, and you know, I know those things stick
with him. And I know that, you know, as a
nerdivergent not going through school when people recognize it, especially
(18:49):
with women females, I have things that I remember from
years and years and years ago that stick with me.
I think one of the things that I love about
nerd diversity affirming environments is that we're taking away this shame, right,
And I think a lot of trauma comes from the
shame of being who you are because other people don't
accept it or believe it, or acknowledge it, or any
(19:12):
of those kinds of things. So really, on a very
nitty gritty level, part of a neurodiversity affirming school is
naming things the way they are right, Naming you know,
instead of euphemisms that you might use like this you
know this kid is having behavior problems, or this kid
said you know is really disruptive or whatever those kinds
of things, are naming it like this kid is having
(19:32):
difficulty regulating their emotions, this kid is having a big
reaction to something and saying that out loud, Saying that happens,
like recognizing it happens to us as teachers, right, it
happens to us as humans. I have big reactions all
the time because life is something to react to, right,
But being able to recognize it, acknowledge it, give name
(19:54):
to it, provide support and coping mechanisms. It takes the
shame out of the fact that like there shouldn't be
anything to be ashamed of, right, there just is. There's
nothing to be ashamed of. And a lot of times,
you know, Emily and I have talked about this with
each other, with other people. Is we put moral judgments
on those kinds of things, right, we put moral judgments
(20:16):
on I don't love the words good and bad, right,
but like good behavior, bad behavior, you know, motivation and
all of those kinds of things. When we take the
moral judgment away, kids don't feel the weight of being
you know, quote unquote wrong in our spaces because they're not.
They're just showing up the way they are, and we
(20:38):
need to understand that the support is what they need
more than the lecture or the whatever comes next.
Speaker 3 (20:57):
What a man I was just saying reminded me of
one of my favorite quotes. It's from a psychologist, Alfred Adler,
who developed Adlerian therapy specifically, and the quote is that
all of human life is a striving for perfection. And
the key word in that sentence is not perfection, is striving.
And it's about the fact that we seem to forget
(21:20):
sometimes in the classroom or even at home as parents,
that kids want to be successful. That is part of
just being human. Being human is about wanting growth, wanting progress,
wanting momentum that doesn't stop. It doesn't stop with age,
it doesn't stop once you reach a certain point in
(21:41):
your life, like, Oh, I've achieved the pinnacle and now
I'm done. Like that just doesn't happen. But sometimes when
we look at kids, somehow we interpret it differently because
sometimes their goals, or their motivations, or the things that
they feel like they can make progress with are not
aligned with what society has decided are the things that
they should be making progress toward. But when we take
(22:04):
a step back and work to align those things, the
trauma occurs. When we are constantly in this push and
pull between your needs and your wants and my needs
and my wants, and you have to comply with what
I'm telling you to, regardless of the physiological reaction you have,
(22:25):
the emotional reaction that you have, what your actual needs are,
And it gets to this point where it's the suppression
of that innate need that those kids have. And so
we want to give them the opportunity to find ways
to integrate those pieces, because they do want to be successful.
(22:47):
But the way that schools are currently set up doesn't
allow for that flexibility as much as it as it could,
and it should.
Speaker 2 (22:56):
Use the word flexibility, right, A big one. Yeah, it's
a big one. It is a key factor or hate
in being flexible.
Speaker 3 (23:05):
Here's something I want to say, yeah about the flexibility
piece though, is I was going to say I love
the fact. I don't love the fact I laugh at
the fact that one of the biggest complaints that people
have about neurodivergent folks is that they are not flexible
enough by insisting that they have to do it our way,
you know, or whatever that way is. Yeah, And it's like,
oh wait, wait, am I being flexible? You know? And
(23:29):
I just think sometimes there's so little insight because people
don't reflect on those things. They don't listen to what
our kids are saying, and they'll tell us what's working
and what's not. And I'm not saying that there aren't
times when kids need to build skills and develop things
and be more like that is true for sure, but
(23:50):
it's not either or. It's a both. And and I
think that that's a shift that we really need to
make and.
Speaker 2 (23:56):
We have to show up flexible, yeah, in order to
help kids develop flexible. Like, one of my favorite Ross
Green quotes is show me an inflexible kid, I'll show
you an equally inflexible adult.
Speaker 3 (24:07):
I don't know if I again, Yeah, it's in one
of the books.
Speaker 2 (24:11):
Yeah, and it's like, oh duh, Like we get we
get on on a pilot, we get stuck there. We
we're wired to responding kind right, So if somebody comes
at us within flexibility, our pickles are going to go
up and we're going to try to dig in and
not be flexible either, right, and that power struggle ensues
when really, if we could just notice that they're giving
(24:35):
us a signal that they also need us to be flexible,
that they need some flexibility, right, it could change things.
Speaker 1 (24:40):
But I think the question why matters so much? Right
we ask I think as educators, you know, asking ourselves yourselves,
why why do I need it to be that way?
Is there an actually answer? And I asked myself that
as a parent, just to be like really, frank, Like,
I'll say something and I'll and then I'll be like,
oh does that actually matter? Why do I need that
to be? You know? And then I have to backtrack
(25:01):
a little bit and be like you know, actually not
important kind of thing. That's something that our kids need
to see too, is our ability to say ooh, actually
I thought about this again and I changed my mind
and it really doesn't matter, or we can do it differently.
You know. One of the most striking things a kid
has said to me lately was just and this kid
was having some strife with a teacher said to me,
(25:25):
who has beef with a fifteen year old? And I
was like, that was the best thing I'd heard, because
I was like, you're not wrong there, right, what adult
has beef with a fifteen year old? And I thought,
what an insightful thing for this kid to say. Also
just hilarious, right, it was a hilarious thing to say,
but super insightful. And I said, well, I'm sure you
can't say that to the teacher, but there are other ways.
(25:47):
Let's work on ways that you could say, you know,
how do we make this work better? What's going on here?
But it's true, like I think, remembering that as adults,
that doesn't mean we can't work with the students that
we have. We can't respect their opinions and their thoughts
and hear them out right, And that's part of the
flexibility is hearing them out. And I you know, I've
(26:09):
been a teacher for more years than i'd like to
be able to say, because it's been a long time,
and I know that there have been plenty of times
where I've just been like, well, this, we have to
do it this way. And I look back on the
years that I was like that, and I think, why
what was that about? That wasn't about the students in
my classroom. It was about me and my own feeling
of self efficacy, my own feeling of how the other
(26:30):
teachers around me were going to judge what happened if
I made things a little more flexible. Right, So being
able to show up and say we can have conversations
is really a big part of being nertivousy affirming as
well is making sure to hear people out. And sometimes
in the end you're going to be like, I heard
your argument, and I still don't agree with you, and
(26:51):
I still need you to do this paper because it
matters towards your grade. But let's think about are there
other places you can do it? Are there other ways
you can do it? Do you need to break it
up into two chunks like those kinds of things. But
it's just I don't know. I just keep thinking about
how many times I have said because and realizing because
(27:13):
it's the answer that I would not want to hear.
So you know, rethinking that myself.
Speaker 2 (27:18):
Yeah, I was just thinking about math as you were
talking about that, and all the struggles were showing your
work and math over the years. Right, my kid did
not understand why if he could do it in his
head and get the right answer, that he had to
write it down and then he would get in trouble
for not writing it down right. And there was this
friction that was just caused by both people digging in
(27:41):
and not seeing the other person's perspective. And you know,
he had a more difficult time with seeing that other
perspective or understanding that there are other reasons beyond getting
the right answer that he was being asked to do
these things, you know, but getting creative and maybe sometimes
making exceptions. Right, is it really that important to show
(28:02):
your work when you got the right answer, just saying
and put that out there in the world for the
next set of kids.
Speaker 3 (28:09):
Right, So I have two thoughts. So one is directly
related to that, and it is interesting to think about
and I feel like if you can effectively explain why
the kids need to show their work, because the problem
if you don't show your work. Actually, I was listening
to a really great podcast the other day and I'm
not going to remember what podcast it was because I
listened to all of them. Yeah, but they were actually
(28:30):
talking about AI and education and about how teachers kind
of need to recognize the fact that I think this
was actually the asraclined podcast if anyone wants to go
back and listen to it at some point whenever this
is released. And it was with somebody and I'm not
going to a rehear name, but she was from the
Brookings Institute specifically, and they were talking about how if
(28:52):
you're using AI in education, you have to be able
to explain how you used it right, and the value
to that is like, if I, as a teacher don't
have the feedback about how you reached your response, I
can't then guide you. So I do feel like most
kids that I've worked with really it's like you can
help them understand, but you have to be able to
(29:13):
explain it and get them on board with that. But
also do they have to show their work on every
single problem? Like if they can show you what their
thought process is, and maybe they can't do it in writing,
maybe they need to speak it to you, like there's
other ways to do that. So there is value to
understanding that process, whatever it might be as an educator,
because without that feedback, I can't effectively teach you, you know,
(29:36):
because there can be some mistakes that might happen there.
And so again I'm kind of getting a little bit
off track, but I think again it goes back to
that flexibility on both sides, but also just that honoring
autonomy and bringing kids into the process. It's not you
have to do it because I said so, you have
to do it because this is how this happens here,
(29:57):
and I need to get a little bit of buy
in from you on some level to kind of figure
that out. The other thing I was just going to mention,
this is kind of going off on a totally other
tangent because it was something I thought of earlier. But
talking about how teachers show up in the classroom is
so important, and I've actually been reflecting on this quite
a bit lately. I was thinking about how when I
first started teaching, we talk about the trauma that neurodivergent
(30:20):
people have just through their own experiences. Growing up. I
remember that there were times that I had students in
my classroom when I was not only not my best self,
but where basically I was almost imitating the things that
had happened to me because I didn't have an alternative
right and even though I knew perhaps that they didn't
(30:43):
work at that time, I didn't know what to do instead.
But somehow in my brain I had almost internalized this
idea that like, well, somebody did this, so it must
have been the right way to do it, and even
though it didn't work on me, there must have been
something wrong with me. So then and then I There
are just a couple of these instances that I think
about in my mind where I remember having conversations with
(31:04):
students in ways that conversations had been had with me,
and seeing those students have the same reactions that I had,
and realized having this realization like, oh, yeah, that's just bad.
That's just a bad way to handle that. That wasn't
a me problem when I was a kid. That was
a problem with how that situation was handled. But my
point in that is, like every teacher who comes in
(31:26):
carries with them all of their past experiences from when
they were a student, from when they were a child,
with their parents, you know, whatever, other things that they've experienced,
and it really takes a lot of self reflection and
insight to recognize how those things influence our current actions
and behaviors. And I don't think in education training we
(31:48):
focus on this at all. So I have two masters,
you know, one in education, one in counseling specifically, but
on the psychological side of things, on the mental health
side of things, we actually talk quite a bit about
how our own experiences influence how we show up as
a therapist in the mental health setting, and we talk
about transference and counter transference in how we have to
(32:08):
be able to regulate our own emotions in order to
help our clients regulate their emotions. And I think that
that's really something that educators need more support towards and
understanding in order to implement, because you can't effectively meet
the needs of all of the diverse learners in your
classroom if you're just repeating the patterns of things you've
(32:31):
experienced in your past without any insight into why you're
doing those things.
Speaker 1 (32:36):
And one of the chapters that we wrote in the
book is all about building emotionally competent classrooms, And the
focus of that chapter is less about building emotionally competent
skills in your students and more about reflecting on what you,
as a teacher, need to build for social and emotional
skills to be emotionally competent in yourself. Right, Because the
(32:58):
research shows that students who have emotionally competent and self
aware teachers are learning those skills because they're seeing them
happening in the classroom. Right, They achieve a better rate
of success, whatever that success looks like, because they have
teachers who are self aware, who are able to self monitor,
(33:19):
who are able to do all these things. And I
say it like it's easy. It's not easy, period. It's
not easy. Right. That goes back to the striving component
of being human. But you know, to Emily's point, that's
not something I learned when I was learning how to
become an educator. It's something I've learned through being an
adult who is finding my way through life. It's actually
(33:39):
something that I've learned more as a parent to neurodivergent
kids than I learned anywhere else in my life.
Speaker 2 (33:45):
Yeah, totally.
Speaker 3 (33:46):
Yeah. I look back and I got my first year teaching.
I always laugh and like I was twenty one years old.
My friends alone was not fully developed. It was a
bad idea. I don't know who thought it was a
good idea to put me in front of a classroom.
But I also reflect and go there were parents who
were asking me advice about things. I didn't have kids.
They had no clue that was terrible. They should not
listen to anything I said. But there is that process.
(34:08):
And I'm not saying that every teacher has to have
their children or whatever. I mean. I'm really just reflecting
on the fact that for me and I have three kids,
but there's a you know, Amanda kind of has the same,
but there's a gap. Right, My oldest is seventeen, my
middle is fifteen, and then my youngest is ten, and
I parent that ten year old so much differently than
I do those older too, because I've just learned more
(34:31):
about myself than about my kids and about all of
these different things. And so I think that it's okay
for teachers to walk into the classroom and realize that
that's just the beginning of that process and of that growth.
And it's okay to change. You don't have to have
it all figured out. I think that's the same thing
that parents can recognize for themselves as well.
Speaker 1 (34:54):
I smile when Emile says that my children are far
part of an issue and the older two are young
adults actually children anymore. You're twenty nine, twenty two, and
fifteen are my kids ages at this point. And the
older two consistently complain at how good a parent the
younger one gets, and I'm like, I'm sorry, I didn't
(35:15):
know what I was doing as much.
Speaker 3 (35:16):
As I do it with great idea.
Speaker 1 (35:18):
And also so you are my learning experience to make
me a better parent for your your sibling here. But
you know, it is hard. It is hard, and I
think it really stresses the importance of teachers finding mentors too.
I don't know that that's something that's always built into systems,
and I think having teacher mentors where you can have
(35:38):
somebody who's been doing it a little bit longer. I
know that in most cases, you when you are starting out,
you have somebody who is sort of paired up with you,
but not always like continuing to have mentors, continuing to
have somebody who can say I don't know if I
did this correctly. I don't know if you have another idea, right,
And that requires some vulnerability on the part of a
(35:59):
teacher to be able to say like, I don't know
if I did this well and I need help, right,
and none of us like to ask for help. Well,
actually I don't know. I speak for me. I think
I just brought my own stuff to that. I don't
like asking for help. If you, listener, don't like asking
for help, I would encourage you to realize that it's okay.
(36:20):
We encourage our kids to ask for help, and I
think as parents and as educators, we also need to
ask for help when we feel stuck in a situation.
Speaker 2 (36:28):
M h. And really, what we're talking about here's growth mindset. Yeah,
every time you all have an answer to something, and
then all this conversation, I'm thinking, we're just asking for
growth mindset. We're asking for growth mindset for yourself as
an educator, for yourself as a parent, for asking for it,
to teach our kids to have a growth mindset. Right,
(36:49):
that that is more valuable, and with that also comes
out flexibility right to say, Okay, we may not be
at our best right now. Yeah, we're growing, we're learning,
we're always learning. Yeah. I mean my two kids are
young adults. I don't have the third straggler, And now
I'm like, well, I wish I could start over now
(37:10):
with what I know now, and they would have had
a totally different childhood and it would probably be better
in a lot of ways, right, because I just have
more experience and knowledge and all the things. And that's
not reality, right, And so we don't blame and shame ourselves.
We just say growth mindset, right.
Speaker 1 (37:31):
Well, but they're benefiting from that now, right, And I
say that to you because I know that we have
children around the same age. They're benefiting from that now
because we can have those conversations with them as they
are young adults, because that relationship changes a little bit,
and to be able to say, like, you know, what
I wish i'd done differently when you were younger. It
doesn't change how we did it, but it can change
(37:52):
how they think about it a little bit.
Speaker 2 (37:54):
Yeah, it can change. Maybe they're narrative about it, right
if we revisit it in a different person. Yeah, for sure.
We are unfortunately out of time that went by in
the blink of an eye, and I want to make
sure that we tell everybody where they can get the
book and also where they can find each of you
online so that they can learn more from you.
Speaker 3 (38:15):
You can order the book pretty much anywhere, Amazon, Target,
Indie Bound, wherever you want to find it, Barnes and Noble,
all the places. And you can check out the Neurodiversity
Podcast anywhere that you listen to podcasts, and you can
learn more about the work that Amanda and I do
on our website Neurodiversityfirmingschools dot com. We've got info there
(38:38):
about a limited series podcasts that we did, our speaking courses,
all of those great things adults, Amanda.
Speaker 1 (38:46):
I would put in another note about the podcast. So
we did a limited run series called Creating Nerdiversity Affirming
Schools Podcast, which aligns with the book. But you don't
have to have read the book to benefit from the
conversations and the ideas too. So you know, if you're
somebody who learns in a different way, we'd encourage you to,
(39:06):
you know, check out the podcast and see if it
catches your your at tension and your interest and it
gives you new ways to think about things.
Speaker 2 (39:14):
I love that and the book is for educators? Is
it also for parents?
Speaker 1 (39:19):
We've had a lot of parents who feeld us. They're
using it as a tool to learn and to advocate
within the systems that their students are in.
Speaker 2 (39:26):
Love that, and I just am so thankful for the
work that you're doing, what you're putting out there to
change the way that we educate kids so that kids
like our own have an opportunity, not like I don't
even put emphasis on academic performance. I just want them
(39:47):
to have the opportunity to feel good about themselves, to
feel confident and competent. And I think you know, this
work that you're doing is such a great way to
start transforming the way that we think about neurodivergent students.
And I'm so thankful for that. I appreciate you being
here too, and sharing more of your time and more
(40:09):
of your wisdom with the audience here. It's so so valuable.
Thank you, Thanks Benny. I will see everybody next time.
Take good care. I see you. You're doing hard and
meaningful work, and you don't have to do it alone.
If you found this episode helpful, share it with someone
(40:31):
who needs it and leave a quick review so others
can find this support too. When you're ready for next steps,
the Regulated Kids Project is here with the tools, coaching,
and community to help you raise a more regulated, resilient child.
Get more info at regulated kids dot com.
We need to make sure that our students have a
space where they feel comfortable, They feel like they have
a trusting relationship, they feel like they're not going to
be penalized for ways that they might show up that
maybe outside of the ways that they see their peers
showing up. And if they're thinking all of that through consistently, constantly,
(00:22):
if that's what's going through your head all the time,
you can't be doing multiplication tables because all of that
brain spaces are to being used wondering Am I doing
it well? Am I?
Speaker 2 (00:31):
Okay? Here, welcome to Beautifully Complex, where we unpack what
it really means to parent neurodivergent kids with dignity and clarity.
I'm Penny Williams, and I know firsthand how tough and
transformative this journey can be. Let's dive in and discover
how to raise regulated, resilient, beautifully complex kids together. Oh
(00:54):
and if you want more support, join our free community
at hub beautifully compt Life. Welcome back everybody to Beautifully Complex.
I have two lovely ladies with me today who I
have known for a long time. We've had lots of conversations.
(01:16):
They're always amazing and we're going to be talking about
creating neurodiversity firming schools, which is super important for all
of our kids, and I think all kids. But let's
start out, Amanda and Emily. Will you all start by
introducing yourselves. Let everybody know who you are and what
(01:36):
you do and about the book.
Speaker 1 (01:39):
Sure, I guess I will start. And it's always good
because we, you know, have all these female voices to
identify which one it is, right. So I'm Amanda Morin,
I'm an author, I'm a speaker, I'm a teacher. I'm
actually the incoming director of academic services at the at
Compass High School, which is solely for neurodivergent students, so
I'm excited about that. And I am a nerdivergent mother
(02:02):
to three neurodivergent kids, which I think is an important
part of this conversation as well.
Speaker 3 (02:07):
And I'm Emily Kurger Morris. I am a licensed professional
counselor and I support neurodivergent kids, teens and adults in
my mental health practice primarily, but I used to be
a teacher. I also worked as a school counselor previously.
And I'm also neurodivergent and I have three neurodivergent kids
(02:30):
as well, but kind of blending that mental health and
therapeutic side of things along with kind of that background
and education is kind of the work that I do.
I'm also the host of the Neurodiversity Podcast and have
written a couple of different books. Most recently, Amanda and
I co authored Neurodiversity Affirming Schools Transforming Practices so all
(02:52):
students feel accepted and supported.
Speaker 2 (02:54):
Awesome, and that's what we're going to talk about here
today in this conversation. I think a great place to
start is just defining explain for us, describe what does
a neurodiversity affirming school look like? What does it feel like?
Speaker 1 (03:09):
I love that you ask that in two different ways.
I really do, because I don't think that I don't
think we've been asked that in two different ways before.
And I'm going to start with the what it feels like,
because I think that's the piece that really sticks out
to me is it feels like everybody belongs right. And
I think that's an ambitious goal, but it's one that
we're really hoping to get to from all directions, you know, systemically,
(03:33):
classroom level, parentally, all of those kinds of things where
you can you the student, a kid can show up
in the classroom and feel like you can be the
version of yourself that you would be in any other way. Right,
so you belong you have the supports that you need
(03:53):
to be successful. There's no sort of moral judgment on
the way you show up your traits in any of
those neurodivergent sort of ways of being. I would start there, Emily,
what would you add.
Speaker 3 (04:07):
Yeah, I think that the second part of your question
about what it looks like is it looks like students
who are learning in ways that work best for them.
It looks like inclusion where you don't almost have to
even think about it because it's just what happens on
a day to day basis, where people are part of
(04:30):
the community and given opportunities to belong in that community
as opposed to trying to change themselves to fit in.
And I feel like, for a really long time, for
many reasons, neurodivergent kids, even if they've been part of
(04:50):
the classroom setting, that doesn't necessarily mean that they feel
like they have belonged there. So often, so many of
the traits that are near a divergent students show or experience.
Often they're viewed as disciplinary issues when really they're not.
They're often held perhaps to standards that are perhaps too
(05:12):
high or perhaps too low for them in particular areas,
and that can vary even based on the individual student.
And so when we create a neurodiversity affirming environment, like
Amanda said, it creates a space where everybody belongs. And
I think the other thing that I would just mention
here too is it's not always just about the students.
It's also about the teachers, because there are neurodivergent educators
(05:36):
as well who also sometimes need a space where they
can be authentically themselves.
Speaker 2 (05:43):
Yeah, what stood out to me from both of you
as who both use the word belonging and I was
hoping we could talk a little bit deeper about that.
What are the mental health emotional health benefits of having
a sense of belonging? And then on the flip side,
what is the risk when a kid doesn't feel like
(06:05):
they belong.
Speaker 3 (06:08):
So Brenne Brown has talked about this a few different places,
and I've kind of really latched onto it. I really
like how she describes the differences between fitting in and belonging.
And so when she talks about belonging, it really is
the opposite of fitting in. Fitting in, like I mentioned earlier,
is kind of changing yourself and belonging as being part
(06:32):
of a community. One of the main factors that research
shows contributes to a sense of belonging is feeling like
you have a voice in that community, that you have
something to offer, that you are a part of the process.
And so often the things that our neurodivergent students' experience
(06:57):
or need or whatever, they might actually not have the
opportunity to contribute, or might actively be told not to
contribute those things. Maybe they have a special interest, or
maybe they have a you know, a skill or a
need or whatever, and it's like no, no, keep that
on the outside. And so having that sense of belonging
though it influences a sense of self efficacy, it influences
(07:19):
a sense of autonomy, and all of those things are
part of the virtuous cycle towards achievement and success. And
so we really want to make sure that those things
are instilled in our classrooms and part of the structure
so that everybody has the opportunity to participate that lay.
Speaker 1 (07:37):
And I would add that belonging in that way I mean,
Emily just said that beautifully. And the only thing I
would add to that is when we talk about belonging,
I think we often think about when we're talking about classrooms,
we often think about belonging being, you know, keeping up
with the work, keeping up with the students, keeping up
with all of those things. But for me, belonging also
(07:58):
means there are other ways you can contribute, right. It
doesn't have to be about academic achievement. You know, you
don't have to be like the best student to belong
in a classroom that you belong in the entire sort
of ecosystem of the school. Are there clubs that you
feel comfortable in? Are there ways you can show up
on the playground That don't mean you have to conform
(08:21):
to like four square or I don't know what kids
do on the playground anymore.
Speaker 2 (08:24):
That was not right.
Speaker 1 (08:27):
You don't have to show up the way people expect
that it looks, but you still have a space there. Right,
If you want to walk laps around the playground during recess,
because that's how you sort of regulate your system, you
still belong because you have somebody who's going to walk
lapse with you, or something like that you know, So
I just think it's important to make clear belonging isn't
(08:49):
just about achieving the academic goals. It's about being welcomed
into all of the spaces in a school as well.
Speaker 2 (09:00):
It's really about the social emotional aspect of school, right,
which often we don't think about. We think about the academics.
We think about following the rules, right, your behavior, things
like that, and that social emotional piece is really very crucial, right.
Speaker 3 (09:19):
Yeah, yeah, you mentioned the social and emotional piece, and
I think it gets lost of a shuffle sometimes when
we think about academics. But the thing that you have
to remember is that, like, let's look at the long
term for our students, the messages that they receive and
the things that they internalize about themselves as students are
(09:42):
the things that they will carry with them through their lives.
Speaker 2 (09:45):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (09:45):
I know that's true for me, it's probably true for
both of you and everybody who's listening. And sometimes if
there's something you have to unlearn there, that's a lot
to try to unlearn those things. But if you feel
like you belove, if you feel like you have a voice,
if you feel like you can be successful, that puts
you on a trajectory as an adult to be able
(10:08):
to accomplish a lot of things that you may not
have even really thought about or that you wouldn't have
even attempted if you didn't have that experience of success
and whatever success means for each individual student, that might
also look different for different kids. You can't have that actualization,
that self actualization. I mean, if we think about like
(10:30):
Maslow right and that self actualization that at that top
of that pyramid, like you're not going to get there
without all of those social and emotional pieces also in playing.
Speaker 1 (10:41):
And also when we have kids who don't feel comfortable
in social emotional you know, space, like if they don't
feel like they belong, if they don't feel like they
can express themselves in a way that is authentic to them,
they're hyper vigilant, they're worried about all of the things
that are going on and how people are going to
react to them. They're not able to be available for learning.
(11:03):
And I think that's something that I stress over and
over again when I talk to parents, when I talk
to teachers, is we need to make sure that our
students have a space where they feel comfortable, they feel
like they have a trusting relationship. They feel like they're
not going to be you know, penalized for ways that
they might show up that maybe outside of the ways
(11:26):
that they see their peers showing up. And if they're
thinking all of that through consistently, constantly, if that's what's
going through your head all the time, you can't be
doing multiplication tables because all of that brain spaces aready
being used wondering am I doing it?
Speaker 2 (11:41):
Well?
Speaker 1 (11:41):
Am I okay?
Speaker 2 (11:42):
Here?
Speaker 1 (11:43):
So you know, I think that social emotional piece we
can't skip over it because when we do skip over it,
we're actually skipping over the foundation of how students are
able to learn.
Speaker 2 (11:55):
Yeah, I'm so glad you brought that up. Availability to
learn was something that I wish I had learned about
a lot sooner in my own kid's school journey, because
the more that he was dysregulated, the more that he
was hyper vigilant, as you mentioned, the more that he
didn't feel safe, he was not physiologically available to learn. Right,
(12:15):
that frontal lobe is inaccessible because the amigdala is sounding
the alarm. And so you know, sometimes when we stick
to these school rules of you know, butts and seats, right,
they have to be there. Well, if they're there but
they don't feel safe, they're not learning, what's the point
(12:36):
of that, right, Like, we have to focus on helping
kids feel safe in the classroom, in the environment, socially, emotionally, physically, right,
all the things in order for them to have that availability,
that opportunity, right, the opportunity to learn. That's part of
leveling that playing field. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (12:55):
Absolutely.
Speaker 2 (12:57):
I was thinking as you guys were talking about development
and trauma, developmental trauma, and the fact that kids pick
up a great deal of their self worth through their
school experiences, and I was hoping that you all could
talk a little bit about that and how we create
(13:17):
environments again that are neurodiversity affirming that help kids to say, Okay,
I don't look the same, I don't do things the
same way. I'm different, but I still have value. I
still am building some confidence and beyond what I would
think of is beyond belonging. Does that make sense? Yeah?
Speaker 1 (13:39):
Yeah, And for me it's you know, and I have value, right,
It's the not in spite of it's because of this,
I have value. A lot of our neurodivergent kids bring
such unique perspectives into the classroom, right, Yeah, they bring
such unique perspectives into life that I think part of
what matters when we're thinking about how do we make
(14:02):
neurodiversity of firming environments is making space for the fact
that it may not look like the way you expect
it to. Whatever it is, you know, the explaining the
math problem may look like the way you expect it to.
The approach to writing may not look like you expected to.
Any of those kinds of things may look different. I
had another train of thought that I lost speaking of
(14:23):
a neurodivergen smum Braine just went and a whole swing there.
But I think part of the thing that I would
say is giving kids the opportunity to show what they know,
not just in narrow ways.
Speaker 2 (14:39):
Right.
Speaker 1 (14:39):
So like and I don't even just mean like the
UDL component. I don't even just mean like multimodal. I mean,
like Emily mentioned special interest. For example, I was working
with a student the other day who was frustrated about
how other kids were sort of reacting to his interest
in Pokemon, right, and Pokemon is his thing, And so
(15:01):
I had him teach me all about Pokemon. I wanted
to understand all of the things that were frustrating him
that the other kids didn't know, and he came up
with like this graphic and this poster and all these things,
and he brought it into the school and he taught
his friends about it, and now it's working better.
Speaker 3 (15:19):
Right.
Speaker 1 (15:19):
So leaning in to the things that our kids know
and giving them an opportunity to really shine, you know,
it really contributes to self worth is acknowledging that you
have things that you know that you can teach other
people about too.
Speaker 3 (15:33):
Just building on what Amanda was saying about how things
might look different than what you expect. I think the
other part of that really is about recognizing that friendships
might look different, the drive to interact socially might look different.
And a big part of what a narratives do from
(15:53):
the school offers is the opportunity. Again, if we're allowing
people to be authentically themselves, we need to allow that.
So sometimes I'll hear parents or teachers who will make
statements like, well, they go out to recess and all
they want to do is bring their book outside to
recess with them, and they just want to sit there
and read and they don't want to interact. But they
(16:15):
really need the social skills, you know, they really need
to interact with their peers. And if we're honoring somebody's
experience and preferences, the bottom line is they're getting plenty
of social experience in the classroom. There's a lot of
group work that we do in school, like, there's a
lot of opportunities just for those general interactions. And if,
(16:39):
for example, that is that student's recess, should they be
allowed to read a book? I mean, I believe that
they should, that we should give them that option. And
I always put a caveat whenever I talk about this
and say, if for example, that student is actually reading
the book because they're anxious about interacting even though they
want to interact, like, that's different. We support that differently.
(17:00):
But we really need to be sure that we're listening
to what kids are saying and understanding what they really
want and need for themselves, again, as opposed to doing
anything that is just prescriptive, which I think is the
track we fall into.
Speaker 2 (17:17):
And I think there's another real benefit, for lack of
a better word at the moment, to neudiversity of earming
schools in that we are not traumatizing neudivergent kids while
they're at school, which is a very real thing.
Speaker 3 (17:33):
You know.
Speaker 2 (17:33):
I don't throw around the word trauma lately, but my
own kid was certainly traumatized at school. And I think,
you know, doctor Bruce Perry talked about in his book
that any marginalized individual is going to have traumatic experiences.
And to compound that, we're talking about traumatic experiences during development,
which can have lifelong negative impacts, right, and so one
(17:58):
of the crucial benefit here in my mind, is that
we are creating environments where kids are not going to
experience trauma. Not that we can say never or anything
like that, right, but in general, it's going at a
more affirming, accepting you belong here. Environment is going to
(18:21):
feel better, feel safer, and be less traumatic during that development,
which is so important.
Speaker 1 (18:28):
Yes, and I agree, and I'm thinking about my own
children and their experiences, and yeah, one of my children
had some very traumatic experiences at the beginning of his
school years, and you know, I know those things stick
with him. And I know that, you know, as a
nerdivergent not going through school when people recognize it, especially
(18:49):
with women females, I have things that I remember from
years and years and years ago that stick with me.
I think one of the things that I love about
nerd diversity affirming environments is that we're taking away this shame, right,
And I think a lot of trauma comes from the
shame of being who you are because other people don't
accept it or believe it, or acknowledge it, or any
(19:12):
of those kinds of things. So really, on a very
nitty gritty level, part of a neurodiversity affirming school is
naming things the way they are right, Naming you know,
instead of euphemisms that you might use like this you
know this kid is having behavior problems, or this kid
said you know is really disruptive or whatever those kinds
of things, are naming it like this kid is having
(19:32):
difficulty regulating their emotions, this kid is having a big
reaction to something and saying that out loud, Saying that happens,
like recognizing it happens to us as teachers, right, it
happens to us as humans. I have big reactions all
the time because life is something to react to, right,
But being able to recognize it, acknowledge it, give name
(19:54):
to it, provide support and coping mechanisms. It takes the
shame out of the fact that like there shouldn't be
anything to be ashamed of, right, there just is. There's
nothing to be ashamed of. And a lot of times,
you know, Emily and I have talked about this with
each other, with other people. Is we put moral judgments
on those kinds of things, right, we put moral judgments
(20:16):
on I don't love the words good and bad, right,
but like good behavior, bad behavior, you know, motivation and
all of those kinds of things. When we take the
moral judgment away, kids don't feel the weight of being
you know, quote unquote wrong in our spaces because they're not.
They're just showing up the way they are, and we
(20:38):
need to understand that the support is what they need
more than the lecture or the whatever comes next.
Speaker 3 (20:57):
What a man I was just saying reminded me of
one of my favorite quotes. It's from a psychologist, Alfred Adler,
who developed Adlerian therapy specifically, and the quote is that
all of human life is a striving for perfection. And
the key word in that sentence is not perfection, is striving.
And it's about the fact that we seem to forget
(21:20):
sometimes in the classroom or even at home as parents,
that kids want to be successful. That is part of
just being human. Being human is about wanting growth, wanting progress,
wanting momentum that doesn't stop. It doesn't stop with age,
it doesn't stop once you reach a certain point in
(21:41):
your life, like, Oh, I've achieved the pinnacle and now
I'm done. Like that just doesn't happen. But sometimes when
we look at kids, somehow we interpret it differently because
sometimes their goals, or their motivations, or the things that
they feel like they can make progress with are not
aligned with what society has decided are the things that
they should be making progress toward. But when we take
(22:04):
a step back and work to align those things, the
trauma occurs. When we are constantly in this push and
pull between your needs and your wants and my needs
and my wants, and you have to comply with what
I'm telling you to, regardless of the physiological reaction you have,
(22:25):
the emotional reaction that you have, what your actual needs are,
And it gets to this point where it's the suppression
of that innate need that those kids have. And so
we want to give them the opportunity to find ways
to integrate those pieces, because they do want to be successful.
(22:47):
But the way that schools are currently set up doesn't
allow for that flexibility as much as it as it could,
and it should.
Speaker 2 (22:56):
Use the word flexibility, right, A big one. Yeah, it's
a big one. It is a key factor or hate
in being flexible.
Speaker 3 (23:05):
Here's something I want to say, yeah about the flexibility
piece though, is I was going to say I love
the fact. I don't love the fact I laugh at
the fact that one of the biggest complaints that people
have about neurodivergent folks is that they are not flexible
enough by insisting that they have to do it our way,
you know, or whatever that way is. Yeah, And it's like,
oh wait, wait, am I being flexible? You know? And
(23:29):
I just think sometimes there's so little insight because people
don't reflect on those things. They don't listen to what
our kids are saying, and they'll tell us what's working
and what's not. And I'm not saying that there aren't
times when kids need to build skills and develop things
and be more like that is true for sure, but
(23:50):
it's not either or. It's a both. And and I
think that that's a shift that we really need to
make and.
Speaker 2 (23:56):
We have to show up flexible, yeah, in order to
help kids develop flexible. Like, one of my favorite Ross
Green quotes is show me an inflexible kid, I'll show
you an equally inflexible adult.
Speaker 3 (24:07):
I don't know if I again, Yeah, it's in one
of the books.
Speaker 2 (24:11):
Yeah, and it's like, oh duh, Like we get we
get on on a pilot, we get stuck there. We
we're wired to responding kind right, So if somebody comes
at us within flexibility, our pickles are going to go
up and we're going to try to dig in and
not be flexible either, right, and that power struggle ensues
when really, if we could just notice that they're giving
(24:35):
us a signal that they also need us to be flexible,
that they need some flexibility, right, it could change things.
Speaker 1 (24:40):
But I think the question why matters so much? Right
we ask I think as educators, you know, asking ourselves yourselves,
why why do I need it to be that way?
Is there an actually answer? And I asked myself that
as a parent, just to be like really, frank, Like,
I'll say something and I'll and then I'll be like,
oh does that actually matter? Why do I need that
to be? You know? And then I have to backtrack
(25:01):
a little bit and be like you know, actually not
important kind of thing. That's something that our kids need
to see too, is our ability to say ooh, actually
I thought about this again and I changed my mind
and it really doesn't matter, or we can do it differently.
You know. One of the most striking things a kid
has said to me lately was just and this kid
was having some strife with a teacher said to me,
(25:25):
who has beef with a fifteen year old? And I
was like, that was the best thing I'd heard, because
I was like, you're not wrong there, right, what adult
has beef with a fifteen year old? And I thought,
what an insightful thing for this kid to say. Also
just hilarious, right, it was a hilarious thing to say,
but super insightful. And I said, well, I'm sure you
can't say that to the teacher, but there are other ways.
(25:47):
Let's work on ways that you could say, you know,
how do we make this work better? What's going on here?
But it's true, like I think, remembering that as adults,
that doesn't mean we can't work with the students that
we have. We can't respect their opinions and their thoughts
and hear them out right, And that's part of the
flexibility is hearing them out. And I you know, I've
(26:09):
been a teacher for more years than i'd like to
be able to say, because it's been a long time,
and I know that there have been plenty of times
where I've just been like, well, this, we have to
do it this way. And I look back on the
years that I was like that, and I think, why
what was that about? That wasn't about the students in
my classroom. It was about me and my own feeling
of self efficacy, my own feeling of how the other
(26:30):
teachers around me were going to judge what happened if
I made things a little more flexible. Right, So being
able to show up and say we can have conversations
is really a big part of being nertivousy affirming as
well is making sure to hear people out. And sometimes
in the end you're going to be like, I heard
your argument, and I still don't agree with you, and
(26:51):
I still need you to do this paper because it
matters towards your grade. But let's think about are there
other places you can do it? Are there other ways
you can do it? Do you need to break it
up into two chunks like those kinds of things. But
it's just I don't know. I just keep thinking about
how many times I have said because and realizing because
(27:13):
it's the answer that I would not want to hear.
So you know, rethinking that myself.
Speaker 2 (27:18):
Yeah, I was just thinking about math as you were
talking about that, and all the struggles were showing your
work and math over the years. Right, my kid did
not understand why if he could do it in his
head and get the right answer, that he had to
write it down and then he would get in trouble
for not writing it down right. And there was this
friction that was just caused by both people digging in
(27:41):
and not seeing the other person's perspective. And you know,
he had a more difficult time with seeing that other
perspective or understanding that there are other reasons beyond getting
the right answer that he was being asked to do
these things, you know, but getting creative and maybe sometimes
making exceptions. Right, is it really that important to show
(28:02):
your work when you got the right answer, just saying
and put that out there in the world for the
next set of kids.
Speaker 3 (28:09):
Right, So I have two thoughts. So one is directly
related to that, and it is interesting to think about
and I feel like if you can effectively explain why
the kids need to show their work, because the problem
if you don't show your work. Actually, I was listening
to a really great podcast the other day and I'm
not going to remember what podcast it was because I
listened to all of them. Yeah, but they were actually
(28:30):
talking about AI and education and about how teachers kind
of need to recognize the fact that I think this
was actually the asraclined podcast if anyone wants to go
back and listen to it at some point whenever this
is released. And it was with somebody and I'm not
going to a rehear name, but she was from the
Brookings Institute specifically, and they were talking about how if
(28:52):
you're using AI in education, you have to be able
to explain how you used it right, and the value
to that is like, if I, as a teacher don't
have the feedback about how you reached your response, I
can't then guide you. So I do feel like most
kids that I've worked with really it's like you can
help them understand, but you have to be able to
(29:13):
explain it and get them on board with that. But
also do they have to show their work on every
single problem? Like if they can show you what their
thought process is, and maybe they can't do it in writing,
maybe they need to speak it to you, like there's
other ways to do that. So there is value to
understanding that process, whatever it might be as an educator,
because without that feedback, I can't effectively teach you, you know,
(29:36):
because there can be some mistakes that might happen there.
And so again I'm kind of getting a little bit
off track, but I think again it goes back to
that flexibility on both sides, but also just that honoring
autonomy and bringing kids into the process. It's not you
have to do it because I said so, you have
to do it because this is how this happens here,
(29:57):
and I need to get a little bit of buy
in from you on some level to kind of figure
that out. The other thing I was just going to mention,
this is kind of going off on a totally other
tangent because it was something I thought of earlier. But
talking about how teachers show up in the classroom is
so important, and I've actually been reflecting on this quite
a bit lately. I was thinking about how when I
first started teaching, we talk about the trauma that neurodivergent
(30:20):
people have just through their own experiences. Growing up. I
remember that there were times that I had students in
my classroom when I was not only not my best self,
but where basically I was almost imitating the things that
had happened to me because I didn't have an alternative
right and even though I knew perhaps that they didn't
(30:43):
work at that time, I didn't know what to do instead.
But somehow in my brain I had almost internalized this
idea that like, well, somebody did this, so it must
have been the right way to do it, and even
though it didn't work on me, there must have been
something wrong with me. So then and then I There
are just a couple of these instances that I think
about in my mind where I remember having conversations with
(31:04):
students in ways that conversations had been had with me,
and seeing those students have the same reactions that I had,
and realized having this realization like, oh, yeah, that's just bad.
That's just a bad way to handle that. That wasn't
a me problem when I was a kid. That was
a problem with how that situation was handled. But my
point in that is, like every teacher who comes in
(31:26):
carries with them all of their past experiences from when
they were a student, from when they were a child,
with their parents, you know, whatever, other things that they've experienced,
and it really takes a lot of self reflection and
insight to recognize how those things influence our current actions
and behaviors. And I don't think in education training we
(31:48):
focus on this at all. So I have two masters,
you know, one in education, one in counseling specifically, but
on the psychological side of things, on the mental health
side of things, we actually talk quite a bit about
how our own experiences influence how we show up as
a therapist in the mental health setting, and we talk
about transference and counter transference in how we have to
(32:08):
be able to regulate our own emotions in order to
help our clients regulate their emotions. And I think that
that's really something that educators need more support towards and
understanding in order to implement, because you can't effectively meet
the needs of all of the diverse learners in your
classroom if you're just repeating the patterns of things you've
(32:31):
experienced in your past without any insight into why you're
doing those things.
Speaker 1 (32:36):
And one of the chapters that we wrote in the
book is all about building emotionally competent classrooms, And the
focus of that chapter is less about building emotionally competent
skills in your students and more about reflecting on what you,
as a teacher, need to build for social and emotional
skills to be emotionally competent in yourself. Right, Because the
(32:58):
research shows that students who have emotionally competent and self
aware teachers are learning those skills because they're seeing them
happening in the classroom. Right, They achieve a better rate
of success, whatever that success looks like, because they have
teachers who are self aware, who are able to self monitor,
(33:19):
who are able to do all these things. And I
say it like it's easy. It's not easy, period. It's
not easy. Right. That goes back to the striving component
of being human. But you know, to Emily's point, that's
not something I learned when I was learning how to
become an educator. It's something I've learned through being an
adult who is finding my way through life. It's actually
(33:39):
something that I've learned more as a parent to neurodivergent
kids than I learned anywhere else in my life.
Speaker 2 (33:45):
Yeah, totally.
Speaker 3 (33:46):
Yeah. I look back and I got my first year teaching.
I always laugh and like I was twenty one years old.
My friends alone was not fully developed. It was a
bad idea. I don't know who thought it was a
good idea to put me in front of a classroom.
But I also reflect and go there were parents who
were asking me advice about things. I didn't have kids.
They had no clue that was terrible. They should not
listen to anything I said. But there is that process.
(34:08):
And I'm not saying that every teacher has to have
their children or whatever. I mean. I'm really just reflecting
on the fact that for me and I have three kids,
but there's a you know, Amanda kind of has the same,
but there's a gap. Right, My oldest is seventeen, my
middle is fifteen, and then my youngest is ten, and
I parent that ten year old so much differently than
I do those older too, because I've just learned more
(34:31):
about myself than about my kids and about all of
these different things. And so I think that it's okay
for teachers to walk into the classroom and realize that
that's just the beginning of that process and of that growth.
And it's okay to change. You don't have to have
it all figured out. I think that's the same thing
that parents can recognize for themselves as well.
Speaker 1 (34:54):
I smile when Emile says that my children are far
part of an issue and the older two are young
adults actually children anymore. You're twenty nine, twenty two, and
fifteen are my kids ages at this point. And the
older two consistently complain at how good a parent the
younger one gets, and I'm like, I'm sorry, I didn't
(35:15):
know what I was doing as much.
Speaker 3 (35:16):
As I do it with great idea.
Speaker 1 (35:18):
And also so you are my learning experience to make
me a better parent for your your sibling here. But
you know, it is hard. It is hard, and I
think it really stresses the importance of teachers finding mentors too.
I don't know that that's something that's always built into systems,
and I think having teacher mentors where you can have
(35:38):
somebody who's been doing it a little bit longer. I
know that in most cases, you when you are starting out,
you have somebody who is sort of paired up with you,
but not always like continuing to have mentors, continuing to
have somebody who can say I don't know if I
did this correctly. I don't know if you have another idea, right,
And that requires some vulnerability on the part of a
(35:59):
teacher to be able to say like, I don't know
if I did this well and I need help, right,
and none of us like to ask for help. Well,
actually I don't know. I speak for me. I think
I just brought my own stuff to that. I don't
like asking for help. If you, listener, don't like asking
for help, I would encourage you to realize that it's okay.
(36:20):
We encourage our kids to ask for help, and I
think as parents and as educators, we also need to
ask for help when we feel stuck in a situation.
Speaker 2 (36:28):
M h. And really, what we're talking about here's growth mindset. Yeah,
every time you all have an answer to something, and
then all this conversation, I'm thinking, we're just asking for
growth mindset. We're asking for growth mindset for yourself as
an educator, for yourself as a parent, for asking for it,
to teach our kids to have a growth mindset. Right,
(36:49):
that that is more valuable, and with that also comes
out flexibility right to say, Okay, we may not be
at our best right now. Yeah, we're growing, we're learning,
we're always learning. Yeah. I mean my two kids are
young adults. I don't have the third straggler, And now
I'm like, well, I wish I could start over now
(37:10):
with what I know now, and they would have had
a totally different childhood and it would probably be better
in a lot of ways, right, because I just have
more experience and knowledge and all the things. And that's
not reality, right, And so we don't blame and shame ourselves.
We just say growth mindset, right.
Speaker 1 (37:31):
Well, but they're benefiting from that now, right, And I
say that to you because I know that we have
children around the same age. They're benefiting from that now
because we can have those conversations with them as they
are young adults, because that relationship changes a little bit,
and to be able to say, like, you know, what
I wish i'd done differently when you were younger. It
doesn't change how we did it, but it can change
(37:52):
how they think about it a little bit.
Speaker 2 (37:54):
Yeah, it can change. Maybe they're narrative about it, right
if we revisit it in a different person. Yeah, for sure.
We are unfortunately out of time that went by in
the blink of an eye, and I want to make
sure that we tell everybody where they can get the
book and also where they can find each of you
online so that they can learn more from you.
Speaker 3 (38:15):
You can order the book pretty much anywhere, Amazon, Target,
Indie Bound, wherever you want to find it, Barnes and Noble,
all the places. And you can check out the Neurodiversity
Podcast anywhere that you listen to podcasts, and you can
learn more about the work that Amanda and I do
on our website Neurodiversityfirmingschools dot com. We've got info there
(38:38):
about a limited series podcasts that we did, our speaking courses,
all of those great things adults, Amanda.
Speaker 1 (38:46):
I would put in another note about the podcast. So
we did a limited run series called Creating Nerdiversity Affirming
Schools Podcast, which aligns with the book. But you don't
have to have read the book to benefit from the
conversations and the ideas too. So you know, if you're
somebody who learns in a different way, we'd encourage you to,
(39:06):
you know, check out the podcast and see if it
catches your your at tension and your interest and it
gives you new ways to think about things.
Speaker 2 (39:14):
I love that and the book is for educators? Is
it also for parents?
Speaker 1 (39:19):
We've had a lot of parents who feeld us. They're
using it as a tool to learn and to advocate
within the systems that their students are in.
Speaker 2 (39:26):
Love that, and I just am so thankful for the
work that you're doing, what you're putting out there to
change the way that we educate kids so that kids
like our own have an opportunity, not like I don't
even put emphasis on academic performance. I just want them
(39:47):
to have the opportunity to feel good about themselves, to
feel confident and competent. And I think you know, this
work that you're doing is such a great way to
start transforming the way that we think about neurodivergent students.
And I'm so thankful for that. I appreciate you being
here too, and sharing more of your time and more
(40:09):
of your wisdom with the audience here. It's so so valuable.
Thank you, Thanks Benny. I will see everybody next time.
Take good care. I see you. You're doing hard and
meaningful work, and you don't have to do it alone.
If you found this episode helpful, share it with someone
(40:31):
who needs it and leave a quick review so others
can find this support too. When you're ready for next steps,
the Regulated Kids Project is here with the tools, coaching,
and community to help you raise a more regulated, resilient child.
Get more info at regulated kids dot com.
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