June 25, 2025 • 27 mins
What if just five minutes a day could lower your stress, help your child regulate, and even improve sleep? Sounds too good to be true, right? In this episode, I’m joined by Ariel Garten, neuroscientist, psychotherapist, and co-founder of Muse — and trust me, this conversation is both science-packed and deeply personal.
We talk about the real brain science behind mindfulness and meditation (spoiler: it’s not about emptying your mind), and how biofeedback technology like Muse can help kids and parents strengthen self-regulation, improve mental health, and actually enjoy meditation. We also dive into how sleep, anxiety, and neurodivergence all intersect — and how just a couple of minutes of practice a day can transform your family’s nervous system and routines.
If you’ve ever wondered how to help your neurodivergent child (or yourself!) feel calmer, sleep better, and take control of spiraling thoughts, this episode is your starting point.
Listen now and discover how neuroscience-backed tools can make emotional regulation more doable for your beautifully complex family.
You can find additional resources at parentingadhdandautism.com and Regulated Kids.com — because it’s not just about the struggles, it’s about progress, one step at a time.
Show notes and more resources at parentingadhdandautism.com/318
Become a supporter of this podcast: https://www.spreaker.com/podcast/beautifully-complex--6137613/support.
We talk about the real brain science behind mindfulness and meditation (spoiler: it’s not about emptying your mind), and how biofeedback technology like Muse can help kids and parents strengthen self-regulation, improve mental health, and actually enjoy meditation. We also dive into how sleep, anxiety, and neurodivergence all intersect — and how just a couple of minutes of practice a day can transform your family’s nervous system and routines.
If you’ve ever wondered how to help your neurodivergent child (or yourself!) feel calmer, sleep better, and take control of spiraling thoughts, this episode is your starting point.
Listen now and discover how neuroscience-backed tools can make emotional regulation more doable for your beautifully complex family.
You can find additional resources at parentingadhdandautism.com and Regulated Kids.com — because it’s not just about the struggles, it’s about progress, one step at a time.
Show notes and more resources at parentingadhdandautism.com/318
Become a supporter of this podcast: https://www.spreaker.com/podcast/beautifully-complex--6137613/support.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:01):
Most of us are used to having thoughts and we
just think those thoughts. Those are just the thoughts in
our head, and they drive us a little crazy or
they make us happy, and that's what it is. And
when you do this exercise of noticing that your mind
is on a thought and it's wandering, and then choosing
to bring your attention back to your breath, like choosing
to say, hey, I don't want to follow that thought,
then all of a sudden, you've shifted your relationship to
(00:24):
your thinking and you can now start to be in
control and the master of your own thoughts in your
own mind.
Speaker 2 (00:31):
Welcome to beautifully Complex, where we unpack what it really
means to parent neurodivergent kids with dignity and clarity. I'm
Penny Williams, and I know firsthand how tough and transformative
this journey can be. Let's dive in and discover how
to raise regulated, resilient, beautifully complex kids together. Oh and
(00:51):
if you want more support, join our free community at
hub dot beautifully complex dot life. Hi, everybody, welcome back
to beautifully Complex. I am really thrilled to have Ariel
Garten here with me, co founder of muse neuroscientist. She'll
(01:12):
tell you lots more about herself in a moment, but
we're going to talk about neuroscience and the brain body
connection and tech that can help us with sleep optimization
and mindfulness and meditation practices. And it's something that I'm
actually familiar with with my own kid for several years now,
so I'm so excited to have a chat about what's
(01:33):
behind it and how it works, and why it works
and how it can benefit those of you who are listening. Ariel,
will you start by letting everybody know who you are
and what you do. Sure?
Speaker 1 (01:43):
So, my name is Ariel. I'm a mom of two.
I have a three year old and a nine year
old and I love them very dearly. And my background
is neuroscience and psychotherapy, and I make a tool called
Muse which tracks your brain to help you meditate and
improve hopefully your brain and your life.
Speaker 2 (02:02):
Awesome. Let's start with talking about the mind body connection
and the science behind mindfulness practice, meditation practice, and all
these other things.
Speaker 1 (02:13):
So meditation is a real phenomenon that makes real change
in your brain. Most people hear the term meditation and
they're like, okay, is that like this weird thing. Note.
Meditation is a simple practice that you do and as
you do it, it strengthens parts of your brain and
teaches your body to calm and teaches you to better
self regulate. So the most common form of meditation that
(02:37):
we do is a focused attention on the breath practice,
and you'll simply be watching your breath, and as you
do this, you are going to have some thoughts that
come up. Because everybody's like, oh no, I have to
like have my mind go blank, that's not what meditation is.
You're just going to have some thoughts go up, and
instead of following those thoughts, you're going to choose to
let those thoughts go and bring your attention back to
(02:59):
your breath. And when you do this, it actually makes
a profound transformation in your mind and your relationship to
your thinking, because for the first time, you are actually
shifting your thinking. Most of us are used to having
thoughts and we just think those thoughts. Those are just
the thoughts in our head and they drive us a
little crazy or they make us happy, and that's what
(03:20):
it is. Yeah, And when you do this exercise of
noticing that your mind is on a thought and it's
wandering and then choosing to bring your attention back to
your breath, like choosing to say, hey, I don't want
to follow that thought. Then all of a sudden, you've
shifted your relationship to your thinking and you can now
start to be in control and the master of your
own thoughts, in your own mind.
Speaker 2 (03:42):
And what are the benefits of that? What are the
outcomes that we can get from having this mindfulness practice
and being able to self regulate and to somewhat control
our thinking.
Speaker 1 (03:55):
Yeah, so self regulation is huge, and the benefits that
it leads to are the ability to have better conversations,
to be less likely to yell at your kids. Because
you can watch your body having a reaction or having
a thought, and then instead of just following it, you
can watch the reaction. You can watch the anger rise,
(04:16):
you can watch the stuff happening and then take a
beat and say, okay, feeling this thing, but it doesn't
mean I need to act in this way. So it
gives you a little space between the reaction and how
you actually choose to respond in the situation. And this
can improve our relationships obviously, it can improve your productivity
at work, and it can also improve our bodies. So
(04:40):
there are lots of studies that demonstrate that meditating can
improve chronic conditions because it decreases the stress and cortersol
in your body. So there's lots of studies even done
with news demonstrating that news can improve long COVID and
fibermialgia and Cushing syndromes, stress related syndromes. Because when you
learn to train your mind and downregulate your stress response,
(05:04):
much of your not only your mind, but your physiology
your body can also improve.
Speaker 2 (05:09):
And we found it useful for anxiety too, and being
able to let go of thoughts. Right if you're ruminating
on that anxious thinking, it can we really help follow
that practice. Do you talk about optimizing sleep as well
with this tool? Can you tell us a little bit
more about that?
Speaker 1 (05:28):
Sure? So, sleep is obviously incredibly important, and it's something
that many of us do not get a lot of.
Maybe you're not sleeping, your kids are not sleeping, and
therefore you're not sleeping, But sleep is really important to
actually improve your emotional self regulation. You know, we all
know that when our kid hasn't had their nap or
they missed yours sleep that night, they're going to be crankier. Well,
(05:51):
the same goes for us parents if we don't sleep well.
Adults also lose their emotional self regulation when they don't sleep,
lose their ability to have better self control and willpower
and cognitive functioning. So sleep is super key with Muse.
And we haven't yet really talked about mus and what
it is, but we actually have programs that give you
(06:12):
bio neurow feedback to help you fall asleep faster and
fall back asleep when you're woken up in the night.
Speaker 2 (06:17):
Let's go ahead and talk about meos. What is MEOS
and how does it work. I think that's really fascinating
for a lot of people, and we want to understand that,
and then you can talk a little bit about how
it leads to these benefits that we've already been talking about.
Speaker 1 (06:31):
Sure, so Muse is a clinical grade EEG, which is
in this super slim, easy to wear form factor. So
just in the way that we might have a fit
bit on our wrist or a fitness watch, Muse tracks
your brain activity just with a slim little headband connected
to an app on your phone. It has a number
of different uses inside of it. Overall, it's a brain
(06:53):
fitness tool. The most popular use for it is to
teach you to meditate. And what mused is it gives
you real time feedback on your brain while you meditate,
letting you know when you're meditating and when you're doing
it right. So, as I said, most of us, you know,
we know we should meditate, but meditation is hard to do.
Some muse makes meditation easy by actually letting you hear
(07:16):
what your mind is doing when you meditate. When you're focused,
you hear little birds chirping that tell your brain, yip,
you're doing it right. When your mind is wandering, you
hear storm and rain come up that says, hey, your
mind is wandering. Bring it back to the birds. Bring
it back to the birds. And so it makes it
a really simple process to start, both for parents and
for kids. And then it tracks your progress so you
(07:39):
see all your data and you see how you're improving.
Speaker 2 (07:41):
Yeah, it's really been a game changer in our house.
I can't say enough good things about it. It does
make meditation easy, honestly. It does really help you to
bring your focus back to let go and say oh
I'm wandering, just to notice like, oh I'm wandering. I
need to come it's so easy to use and so helpful.
(08:03):
Is there different products for kids and adults or is
that one product that anybody can use.
Speaker 1 (08:08):
So we have two different devices. We've Mused two, which
is for meditation, and then we have muse s actually
new product Athena, which is for meditation, for sleep and
overall brain health, and it has both EEG as well
as sensors that track your frontal oxygenation. So it's a
very very cool brain training device. And you can just
(08:29):
buy one device and everybody in the household can use it.
We say nobody under thirteen in the app because we
comply with data policies around the world, and so you know,
parents can choose what they want to do with it,
but that's our official policy.
Speaker 2 (08:46):
Gotcha.
Speaker 1 (08:46):
But there's studies done with children that have demonstrated that
MUSE is quite effective. There's one study from the Kansas
State University and they had kids meditating with MUSE in
a classroom in grade seven and eight and they saw
a seventy four percent decrease in kids being sent to
the detension to the principal's office.
Speaker 2 (09:06):
Yeah, emotional regulation is a big deal, right, Like emotional
regulation is key to I think a fulfilling life. Honestly,
it's a key to really moving through this world with
some grit and resilience and the ability to navigate well.
So it's so so powerful, and this connection with meditation
(09:29):
and that self regulation is really interesting. I want to
play Devil's advocate for a second, because I know a
lot of parents really struggle with adding more tech for
their kids, or their teens, or even themselves. I think, sometimes,
how is tech really not intrusive in this way?
Speaker 1 (09:49):
Right?
Speaker 2 (09:50):
We think of meditation as like being still and quiet
and not you know, engaging with anything else. And yet
here we are using the tech to help us to
meditate and to gain the skill. How do we sort
of like really get okay with it? I guess sure.
Speaker 1 (10:07):
So as a parent, I certainly know the iPad battle
Yeah yeah, yeah. Even as a person who you know,
teaches meditation, I know the screen battles, and so different screens,
different technologies have different roles in our lives. So having
a pair of glasses that helps you see better, a
mirror that you can look into, you know, all of
these tools that we use to self discover and self
(10:31):
improve are actually really really helpful. And so most of
us have difficulty learning to meditate on our own sitting quietly,
and the idea of sitting quietly is actually maybe even terrifying,
sitting with your thoughts. Yeah, and so what we've built
is a tool that really gives you and amplifies your
own experience so that you're actually learning to listen to
(10:54):
your mind's activity and learning to shift your own brain activity.
So it's not just like you know, passive watching of
crap on the internet. It's actually teaching you a skill,
just like a teacher or a guide would do. There's
actually a university researcher that contacted us who ran a
study on news we have a kind of meditation called
(11:16):
heart meditation where you listen to the beating of your
heart to improve your interception, and he contacted us to
learn more information because he was writing a paper that says, yes,
doing our heart meditation improves your inter reception, and inter
reception is your ability to sensibly understand your own state.
So this is really a case in which technology is
(11:36):
truly making you more sensitive to yourself and your own
needs and your own stresses and your ability to self
manage m hm.
Speaker 2 (11:43):
Instead of kind of escaping that by scrolling or watching mindlessly.
Speaker 1 (11:48):
And then on the kid's side, I must say it
is incredibly helpful that it's a piece of technology that
has a gamified way to meditate. They love it, teens
love it, They do it a lot, and it's actually
the way to get your kids to meditate.
Speaker 2 (12:11):
Let's talk about the timing, because I think a lot
of people feel like they have to meditate for a
large chunk of time to make a difference, and I
know we've found in our household that that's not the case.
What is recommend that what is the timeframe where you
see results from using muse.
Speaker 1 (12:29):
So there've been hundreds of studies done with MEWS and
in the interventional studies where MEWS is used to improve
an outcome in your life. So there was a study
by the Mayo Clinic where doctors at the Mayo Clinic
used meuse during the pandemic when they were highly stressed
and so they had very very little time, and the
instruction to them was do it for two minutes a day,
(12:52):
and so doctors did it on average five minutes a
day over the course of I believe three months, and
they saw a fifty four percent reduction and burnout, improvements
in sleep, cognition, obvious reduction, and stress improvement and resilience.
And when we looked at the data from the study,
it really was an average of five minutes a day.
Speaker 2 (13:12):
Yeah, yeah, that's what we saw too, five minutes or less.
As long as you're doing it frequently.
Speaker 1 (13:18):
I'm so curious about how you were using it. I mean,
we just meat. This is the first thing I've heard
that you and your family and household these news. That's
like amazing to me.
Speaker 2 (13:25):
And I've been recommending MEWS for our years now. I
have a kid who has a lot of anxiety and
went away to college, and I was just desperate to
find something to help. Medication wasn't really ideal for this kid.
And I found mus online and I was like, if
you'll try this, I'm going to send this to you.
Please try it. And just the check in phone calls
(13:48):
that we were having, I was noticing a substantial decrease
and anxiety, a substantial decrease in like those ruminating thoughts,
not being able to let go of what you're anxious
about or be able to say like I get the alarm,
I hear you body and nervous system. But I think
(14:09):
it's a false alarm and I'm okay. It was Oh no,
I'm not okay all the time, right, And so that
practice was so helpful in being able to one even
do it, I think authentically like to learn to meditate,
to learn to be able to identify when your focus
(14:29):
is waning, and to come back in a really gentle way.
That feedback is very you know, a gentle way to
do it. And my kid was actually sending me screenshots
of the results and muse every morning, so that we
had this accountability from afar, right, so that it helped
to remember to do it every day, and every day
(14:51):
those stats were going up and up and up of
having more control over you know, that stress response over
the meditation. It was brilliant. And as I said to
you before we started recording, when my kid came home,
the practice sort of waned and we're trying to get
back to it, but almost immediately I noticed a reduction
(15:13):
in anxiety just in the conversations we were having in
the day to day. It was really remarkable, and so
I've been recommending it ever since to everybody who'll listened
to me.
Speaker 1 (15:22):
Wow, this is amazing. I'm so glad for your daughter.
Speaker 2 (15:26):
Thank you. Yeah, it's good stuff. And I've known for
a long time in the work that i'm doing that
mindfulness practice is really helpful. There's lots of studies to
show and support that for ADHD, for autism, for anxiety, right,
but so many people feel like they can't do it
because their mind wanders, and that's not really what it's about.
(15:46):
It's about being able to bring it back when your
mind does wander, right, and so just having a tool
that will help you to recognize that and to make
that shift makes a huge difference for anybody who's kind
of struggling with mindfulness or meditation. I'm going to over
use the word remarkable here, but a lot. It really
(16:06):
did make a monumental difference. I'm so appreciative that we're
going down these avenues with tech, right with neuroscience and
bettering people's lives with technology. It's pretty amazing.
Speaker 1 (16:19):
I'm so touched. I'm quite choked up. This is so beautiful.
Oh wow.
Speaker 2 (16:24):
And you have so many, like what hundreds of thousands
of millions of people maybe who are using mus at
this point. That's just one great story among many. I'm sure.
Speaker 1 (16:32):
Sorry, I'm really really quite choked up. Yeah, there about
half a million people around the world that use news,
but like it's rare that you actually, you know, meet
someone and talk to them and get to connect in
this way, get.
Speaker 2 (16:44):
The personal story. Yeah yeah, yeah, you have a lot
of data, but I'm sure you have a lot of
personal stories like ours too to support what you're doing. Yeah.
It really can make a huge change. And I don't
mean for this podcast episode to sound like an advertisement.
It's not like we are chatting about the neuroscience and
how great this tool is. But it's just something that
(17:04):
I have found to be really helpful, and I know
some of the families that I work with have ordered
it and found good results with it also, So it
was an investment that was very, very very worth it
for sure.
Speaker 1 (17:17):
Wow yeah wow, Well send my love to your daughter.
Speaker 2 (17:21):
Absolutely absolutely, So that was really cool that we were
going to chat and get kind of the behind the scenes.
Speaker 1 (17:28):
Yeah, did she have any questions I could answer for her?
I don't think so.
Speaker 2 (17:32):
Okay, I don't think so. You know, young adult not
so open these days a little bit. But anyway, I
wanted to ask you too about how to weave this
into real life right, we're talking about maybe using it
with kids. We're talking about parents, adults who are stressed,
they're exhausted. You know, we know that it's going to
(17:53):
benefit those things, but often we're in this spot where
we're just stuck in crisis mode and trying to move forward. Word,
how can they weave it into the day to day
where it can start to be helpful?
Speaker 1 (18:06):
Yeah, and I certainly certainly hear you on there's so
many things in the day, how do you add one more.
I was just talking to a friend who's becoming my
running coach because I'm like, I need to exercise, Like,
how can I do this? And she's like, oh, well,
just the beginning of the day or at the end
of I'm like, I have two kids. You don't, it's
hard for you to understand what my life is like.
But like, yeah, yeah, when's that can happen? She's like, oh, well,
(18:28):
just an eight in the morning. You mean while I'm
making breakfast?
Speaker 2 (18:31):
Yeah? Yeah, And that's a long time frame. You're looking
for a bigger tounk of time.
Speaker 1 (18:36):
Yeah. So the good thing about news and meditation is
you can do it for very short periods of time,
and I find it most effective to do in the
evening after my kids are in bed, and then I
can have that time to myself. I can put on
my muse, I can have five minutes, ten minutes, twenty minutes,
whatever I have available, and then do my meditation there.
(18:56):
I also meditate in the morning in bed when I
wake up, because that's the time when either the kids
are not yet awake, or if they are awake and
they holler like, mommy, come into my room, I can
be like, I'm still asleep, give me five minutes, just
five yeah, yeah, And so I find it a great
way to start or end my day. Other people, though,
(19:19):
if your kids are in school, you can, you know,
and you're working, you know, on a lunch break, on
a five minute break, you just need five minutes. And
the key with it is really consistency. So try to
find a place where it's going to fit into your day,
where it can consistently happen. So, you know, maybe it's
every night after you've cleaned up the kitchen and taken
(19:39):
out the garbage and do twelve million things being a
parent entails and you feel super exhausted and you just
want to go to sleep. You're just going to take
five minutes and do this because it's only five.
Speaker 2 (19:49):
Minutes, and start with too, like start with something small.
Speaker 1 (19:54):
Sure, start with two minutes. So we have programs inside
the app like Introduction to Mindfulness, Discover Mind, Biofeedback, where
it just becomes easy because you're listening to two or
three minutes of content and then you're doing a mindfulness
exercise and then you're done. And so you know, instead
of the scrolling of the Instagram or the waking up
(20:14):
on the phone, just put your muse by your bed,
do that instead, and then you can go to sleep
or you can wake up. So hm, you have to
want the benefit of it in order to put it in.
Speaker 2 (20:27):
Yeah, yeah, that's key.
Speaker 1 (20:29):
And when you do put it into your schedule, it
becomes so worthwhile, Like everything just becomes that much easier.
Speaker 2 (20:36):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (20:36):
So it's like one of those things you know, like exercise,
you just feel better for the rest of the day
and thereafter. Just do it and know that the five
minutes is going to make everything else easier.
Speaker 2 (20:47):
Yeah, it's going to save you time later, time stress
that you time ruminating something, right, It's going to save
you time in the long run. And my kidd oh
that's what she did, and she had it by her
bed and before she even got she did the meditation
first and found that really effective to start the day,
kind of giving yourself this even sort of sense, right,
(21:10):
like not waking up and going, oh, I have to
do all these things and I'm so worried about all
these things. Just kind of give herself a little bit
of calm to start out.
Speaker 1 (21:17):
It was amazing, And we also find people that use
it in the evening it improves sleep, so that's also
another great reason to just do it before you go
to bed, and if you have the Muse, so if
you're the Muse too, you can do meditation before we
go to bed if you have the MUSS. We also
have things like something called the Digital Sleeping Pill, which
gives you buyo nerve feedback to help you fall asleep.
(21:37):
I need that we have meditation specifically for sleep, so
you can wear the band and just fall asleep after
your meditation, and then it also tracks your sleep actually
basically as effectively as the EEG. You have a sleep lab,
so it gives you really hot quality sleep data. And
if you're using the Digital Sleeping Pill, if you fall
asleep in the night and you wake up, it starts
(21:58):
to give you a beautiful Audie experience that helps you
fall back asleep. So lots of people who really found
it effective to help them through you know, fragmented sleep
or through that feeling of just lying awake not being
able to sleep because your mind is racing.
Speaker 2 (22:12):
That's me. I've always startled to fall asleep. So yeah,
start using it at night too, then, amazing, what else
do we need to know?
Speaker 1 (22:21):
What?
Speaker 2 (22:22):
Are are there any other like little habits that parents
can instill that will support what we're talking about here,
support self regulasha and that sort of thing.
Speaker 1 (22:33):
Sure, So one is you know, parents and kids meditating
together can be really helpful. You can make it like
a challenge who can meditate longer if you've got the muse.
We have things like birds and points, so you know,
who can get more birds, who can get more points?
That's a great way to get the whole family doing
it and competing with each other.
Speaker 2 (22:53):
Yeah love that.
Speaker 1 (22:54):
Yeah, I smile, because if you want to get a
kid to tie their shoes, they'll never do it. If
you say who can tie your shoes? The fast scrambling
to get their shoes on?
Speaker 2 (23:03):
Yeah, yeah, for most kids. Some of them will making
more ink shows, but for most kids it's like, oh,
I want to win, I can do this, I want
to compete.
Speaker 1 (23:10):
Yeah, And then general tips for parents to self regulate.
One is take frequent breaks to check in and breathe deeply.
So when you take a deep breath, like a slow
exhale on your breath, belly breath, you are triggering your
nervous system to calm down. So when you breathe into
(23:33):
your stomach, it triggers something called your biggest nerve, which
is the nerve in our body responsible for the rest
and digest, for calming and chilling out. And so the
easiest way to reset. If you're starting to feel yourself
being ramped, you know, your muscles, tents, that feeling in
your stomach or your chest, or like that feeling of anger, hatred,
(23:54):
you know, whatever it is. Stop take deep breaths, breathe
into your belly, slow, slow exhales, even if it feels weird,
just you know, do it five times. Calm yourself down,
and then look at the situation from that perspective, because
everything that we are feeling is great, it's there. We
(24:16):
have a right to be feeling that, but it's not
necessarily helpful in the moment. So you know, it's a feeling.
Feelings come, feelings go. You could feel different later. And
so if you take that moment to start to relax
your body and shift your state, you can move yourself
out of that terrible in the moment feeling and then
take a step back and then start it calm, because
(24:38):
we know that if we're ramped and anxious, it's going
to make our kids more ramped and anxious. And it
can feel like you're, you know, a patron saint of calm,
just you know, trying to like chill yourself out constantly
when they're doing things that are really genuinely trying and
difficult and have a lot of emotions for you involved
in it. Yeah, and so all of those difficulties are real,
(25:01):
and you know, whenever you can just remember to stop,
take deep breaths, calm down, and then represent yourself.
Speaker 2 (25:11):
I call it coregulation or co escalation. You can come
in and fuel the fire. You can come in and
bring some calm for your kid tomorrow makes all the
difference in the world. Just taking a breath first before
we respond. Thank you so much for sharing so much
of the science behind us and why it works and
what the benefits are. Can you tell everybody where to
(25:32):
find more information, maybe the studies that you've mentioned, so
that they can learn more about the tool.
Speaker 1 (25:39):
Sure, you can go to choosemuse dot com c h
O O s E m U s E dot com
and there you can see what it is that we've
been talking about, and we have a research tab with
quite a number of studies there on it, and you
can always find us also on all the socials that
at Choose Muse.
Speaker 2 (25:57):
Perfect and I will link all that up in the
show notes, which you can find at parentingadhdan Autism dot
com Slash three one eight for episode three eighteen. It
has been a pleasure, Aril. I am just honored to
have gotten a chance to speak to you and to
learn more about this tool. It's been so amazing for
us and inspired to use it more and to share
(26:20):
it more. And I appreciate the work that you're doing
to help us really improve our day to day lives.
Speaker 1 (26:26):
Oh, thank you so much. What a joy and pleasure
to get to meet you today. Thank you.
Speaker 2 (26:30):
I'll see everybody on the next episode. Take good care.
I see you. You're doing hard and meaningful work, and
you don't have to do it alone. If you found
this episode helpful, share it with someone who needs it
and leave a quick review so others can find this
support too. When you're ready for next steps, the Regulated
(26:52):
Kids Project is here with the tools, coaching, and community
to help you raise a more regulated, resilient childailed get
more info at regulated kids dot com
Speaker 1 (27:12):
MHM
Most of us are used to having thoughts and we
just think those thoughts. Those are just the thoughts in
our head, and they drive us a little crazy or
they make us happy, and that's what it is. And
when you do this exercise of noticing that your mind
is on a thought and it's wandering, and then choosing
to bring your attention back to your breath, like choosing
to say, hey, I don't want to follow that thought,
then all of a sudden, you've shifted your relationship to
(00:24):
your thinking and you can now start to be in
control and the master of your own thoughts in your
own mind.
Speaker 2 (00:31):
Welcome to beautifully Complex, where we unpack what it really
means to parent neurodivergent kids with dignity and clarity. I'm
Penny Williams, and I know firsthand how tough and transformative
this journey can be. Let's dive in and discover how
to raise regulated, resilient, beautifully complex kids together. Oh and
(00:51):
if you want more support, join our free community at
hub dot beautifully complex dot life. Hi, everybody, welcome back
to beautifully Complex. I am really thrilled to have Ariel
Garten here with me, co founder of muse neuroscientist. She'll
(01:12):
tell you lots more about herself in a moment, but
we're going to talk about neuroscience and the brain body
connection and tech that can help us with sleep optimization
and mindfulness and meditation practices. And it's something that I'm
actually familiar with with my own kid for several years now,
so I'm so excited to have a chat about what's
(01:33):
behind it and how it works, and why it works
and how it can benefit those of you who are listening. Ariel,
will you start by letting everybody know who you are
and what you do. Sure?
Speaker 1 (01:43):
So, my name is Ariel. I'm a mom of two.
I have a three year old and a nine year
old and I love them very dearly. And my background
is neuroscience and psychotherapy, and I make a tool called
Muse which tracks your brain to help you meditate and
improve hopefully your brain and your life.
Speaker 2 (02:02):
Awesome. Let's start with talking about the mind body connection
and the science behind mindfulness practice, meditation practice, and all
these other things.
Speaker 1 (02:13):
So meditation is a real phenomenon that makes real change
in your brain. Most people hear the term meditation and
they're like, okay, is that like this weird thing. Note.
Meditation is a simple practice that you do and as
you do it, it strengthens parts of your brain and
teaches your body to calm and teaches you to better
self regulate. So the most common form of meditation that
(02:37):
we do is a focused attention on the breath practice,
and you'll simply be watching your breath, and as you
do this, you are going to have some thoughts that
come up. Because everybody's like, oh no, I have to
like have my mind go blank, that's not what meditation is.
You're just going to have some thoughts go up, and
instead of following those thoughts, you're going to choose to
let those thoughts go and bring your attention back to
(02:59):
your breath. And when you do this, it actually makes
a profound transformation in your mind and your relationship to
your thinking, because for the first time, you are actually
shifting your thinking. Most of us are used to having
thoughts and we just think those thoughts. Those are just
the thoughts in our head and they drive us a
little crazy or they make us happy, and that's what
(03:20):
it is. Yeah, And when you do this exercise of
noticing that your mind is on a thought and it's
wandering and then choosing to bring your attention back to
your breath, like choosing to say, hey, I don't want
to follow that thought. Then all of a sudden, you've
shifted your relationship to your thinking and you can now
start to be in control and the master of your
own thoughts, in your own mind.
Speaker 2 (03:42):
And what are the benefits of that? What are the
outcomes that we can get from having this mindfulness practice
and being able to self regulate and to somewhat control
our thinking.
Speaker 1 (03:55):
Yeah, so self regulation is huge, and the benefits that
it leads to are the ability to have better conversations,
to be less likely to yell at your kids. Because
you can watch your body having a reaction or having
a thought, and then instead of just following it, you
can watch the reaction. You can watch the anger rise,
(04:16):
you can watch the stuff happening and then take a
beat and say, okay, feeling this thing, but it doesn't
mean I need to act in this way. So it
gives you a little space between the reaction and how
you actually choose to respond in the situation. And this
can improve our relationships obviously, it can improve your productivity
at work, and it can also improve our bodies. So
(04:40):
there are lots of studies that demonstrate that meditating can
improve chronic conditions because it decreases the stress and cortersol
in your body. So there's lots of studies even done
with news demonstrating that news can improve long COVID and
fibermialgia and Cushing syndromes, stress related syndromes. Because when you
learn to train your mind and downregulate your stress response,
(05:04):
much of your not only your mind, but your physiology
your body can also improve.
Speaker 2 (05:09):
And we found it useful for anxiety too, and being
able to let go of thoughts. Right if you're ruminating
on that anxious thinking, it can we really help follow
that practice. Do you talk about optimizing sleep as well
with this tool? Can you tell us a little bit
more about that?
Speaker 1 (05:28):
Sure? So, sleep is obviously incredibly important, and it's something
that many of us do not get a lot of.
Maybe you're not sleeping, your kids are not sleeping, and
therefore you're not sleeping, But sleep is really important to
actually improve your emotional self regulation. You know, we all
know that when our kid hasn't had their nap or
they missed yours sleep that night, they're going to be crankier. Well,
(05:51):
the same goes for us parents if we don't sleep well.
Adults also lose their emotional self regulation when they don't sleep,
lose their ability to have better self control and willpower
and cognitive functioning. So sleep is super key with Muse.
And we haven't yet really talked about mus and what
it is, but we actually have programs that give you
(06:12):
bio neurow feedback to help you fall asleep faster and
fall back asleep when you're woken up in the night.
Speaker 2 (06:17):
Let's go ahead and talk about meos. What is MEOS
and how does it work. I think that's really fascinating
for a lot of people, and we want to understand that,
and then you can talk a little bit about how
it leads to these benefits that we've already been talking about.
Speaker 1 (06:31):
Sure, so Muse is a clinical grade EEG, which is
in this super slim, easy to wear form factor. So
just in the way that we might have a fit
bit on our wrist or a fitness watch, Muse tracks
your brain activity just with a slim little headband connected
to an app on your phone. It has a number
of different uses inside of it. Overall, it's a brain
(06:53):
fitness tool. The most popular use for it is to
teach you to meditate. And what mused is it gives
you real time feedback on your brain while you meditate,
letting you know when you're meditating and when you're doing
it right. So, as I said, most of us, you know,
we know we should meditate, but meditation is hard to do.
Some muse makes meditation easy by actually letting you hear
(07:16):
what your mind is doing when you meditate. When you're focused,
you hear little birds chirping that tell your brain, yip,
you're doing it right. When your mind is wandering, you
hear storm and rain come up that says, hey, your
mind is wandering. Bring it back to the birds. Bring
it back to the birds. And so it makes it
a really simple process to start, both for parents and
for kids. And then it tracks your progress so you
(07:39):
see all your data and you see how you're improving.
Speaker 2 (07:41):
Yeah, it's really been a game changer in our house.
I can't say enough good things about it. It does
make meditation easy, honestly. It does really help you to
bring your focus back to let go and say oh
I'm wandering, just to notice like, oh I'm wandering. I
need to come it's so easy to use and so helpful.
(08:03):
Is there different products for kids and adults or is
that one product that anybody can use.
Speaker 1 (08:08):
So we have two different devices. We've Mused two, which
is for meditation, and then we have muse s actually
new product Athena, which is for meditation, for sleep and
overall brain health, and it has both EEG as well
as sensors that track your frontal oxygenation. So it's a
very very cool brain training device. And you can just
(08:29):
buy one device and everybody in the household can use it.
We say nobody under thirteen in the app because we
comply with data policies around the world, and so you know,
parents can choose what they want to do with it,
but that's our official policy.
Speaker 2 (08:46):
Gotcha.
Speaker 1 (08:46):
But there's studies done with children that have demonstrated that
MUSE is quite effective. There's one study from the Kansas
State University and they had kids meditating with MUSE in
a classroom in grade seven and eight and they saw
a seventy four percent decrease in kids being sent to
the detension to the principal's office.
Speaker 2 (09:06):
Yeah, emotional regulation is a big deal, right, Like emotional
regulation is key to I think a fulfilling life. Honestly,
it's a key to really moving through this world with
some grit and resilience and the ability to navigate well.
So it's so so powerful, and this connection with meditation
(09:29):
and that self regulation is really interesting. I want to
play Devil's advocate for a second, because I know a
lot of parents really struggle with adding more tech for
their kids, or their teens, or even themselves. I think, sometimes,
how is tech really not intrusive in this way?
Speaker 1 (09:49):
Right?
Speaker 2 (09:50):
We think of meditation as like being still and quiet
and not you know, engaging with anything else. And yet
here we are using the tech to help us to
meditate and to gain the skill. How do we sort
of like really get okay with it? I guess sure.
Speaker 1 (10:07):
So as a parent, I certainly know the iPad battle
Yeah yeah, yeah. Even as a person who you know,
teaches meditation, I know the screen battles, and so different screens,
different technologies have different roles in our lives. So having
a pair of glasses that helps you see better, a
mirror that you can look into, you know, all of
these tools that we use to self discover and self
(10:31):
improve are actually really really helpful. And so most of
us have difficulty learning to meditate on our own sitting quietly,
and the idea of sitting quietly is actually maybe even terrifying,
sitting with your thoughts. Yeah, and so what we've built
is a tool that really gives you and amplifies your
own experience so that you're actually learning to listen to
(10:54):
your mind's activity and learning to shift your own brain activity.
So it's not just like you know, passive watching of
crap on the internet. It's actually teaching you a skill,
just like a teacher or a guide would do. There's
actually a university researcher that contacted us who ran a
study on news we have a kind of meditation called
(11:16):
heart meditation where you listen to the beating of your
heart to improve your interception, and he contacted us to
learn more information because he was writing a paper that says, yes,
doing our heart meditation improves your inter reception, and inter
reception is your ability to sensibly understand your own state.
So this is really a case in which technology is
(11:36):
truly making you more sensitive to yourself and your own
needs and your own stresses and your ability to self
manage m hm.
Speaker 2 (11:43):
Instead of kind of escaping that by scrolling or watching mindlessly.
Speaker 1 (11:48):
And then on the kid's side, I must say it
is incredibly helpful that it's a piece of technology that
has a gamified way to meditate. They love it, teens
love it, They do it a lot, and it's actually
the way to get your kids to meditate.
Speaker 2 (12:11):
Let's talk about the timing, because I think a lot
of people feel like they have to meditate for a
large chunk of time to make a difference, and I
know we've found in our household that that's not the case.
What is recommend that what is the timeframe where you
see results from using muse.
Speaker 1 (12:29):
So there've been hundreds of studies done with MEWS and
in the interventional studies where MEWS is used to improve
an outcome in your life. So there was a study
by the Mayo Clinic where doctors at the Mayo Clinic
used meuse during the pandemic when they were highly stressed
and so they had very very little time, and the
instruction to them was do it for two minutes a day,
(12:52):
and so doctors did it on average five minutes a
day over the course of I believe three months, and
they saw a fifty four percent reduction and burnout, improvements
in sleep, cognition, obvious reduction, and stress improvement and resilience.
And when we looked at the data from the study,
it really was an average of five minutes a day.
Speaker 2 (13:12):
Yeah, yeah, that's what we saw too, five minutes or less.
As long as you're doing it frequently.
Speaker 1 (13:18):
I'm so curious about how you were using it. I mean,
we just meat. This is the first thing I've heard
that you and your family and household these news. That's
like amazing to me.
Speaker 2 (13:25):
And I've been recommending MEWS for our years now. I
have a kid who has a lot of anxiety and
went away to college, and I was just desperate to
find something to help. Medication wasn't really ideal for this kid.
And I found mus online and I was like, if
you'll try this, I'm going to send this to you.
Please try it. And just the check in phone calls
(13:48):
that we were having, I was noticing a substantial decrease
and anxiety, a substantial decrease in like those ruminating thoughts,
not being able to let go of what you're anxious
about or be able to say like I get the alarm,
I hear you body and nervous system. But I think
(14:09):
it's a false alarm and I'm okay. It was Oh no,
I'm not okay all the time, right, And so that
practice was so helpful in being able to one even
do it, I think authentically like to learn to meditate,
to learn to be able to identify when your focus
(14:29):
is waning, and to come back in a really gentle way.
That feedback is very you know, a gentle way to
do it. And my kid was actually sending me screenshots
of the results and muse every morning, so that we
had this accountability from afar, right, so that it helped
to remember to do it every day, and every day
(14:51):
those stats were going up and up and up of
having more control over you know, that stress response over
the meditation. It was brilliant. And as I said to
you before we started recording, when my kid came home,
the practice sort of waned and we're trying to get
back to it, but almost immediately I noticed a reduction
(15:13):
in anxiety just in the conversations we were having in
the day to day. It was really remarkable, and so
I've been recommending it ever since to everybody who'll listened
to me.
Speaker 1 (15:22):
Wow, this is amazing. I'm so glad for your daughter.
Speaker 2 (15:26):
Thank you. Yeah, it's good stuff. And I've known for
a long time in the work that i'm doing that
mindfulness practice is really helpful. There's lots of studies to
show and support that for ADHD, for autism, for anxiety, right,
but so many people feel like they can't do it
because their mind wanders, and that's not really what it's about.
(15:46):
It's about being able to bring it back when your
mind does wander, right, and so just having a tool
that will help you to recognize that and to make
that shift makes a huge difference for anybody who's kind
of struggling with mindfulness or meditation. I'm going to over
use the word remarkable here, but a lot. It really
(16:06):
did make a monumental difference. I'm so appreciative that we're
going down these avenues with tech, right with neuroscience and
bettering people's lives with technology. It's pretty amazing.
Speaker 1 (16:19):
I'm so touched. I'm quite choked up. This is so beautiful.
Oh wow.
Speaker 2 (16:24):
And you have so many, like what hundreds of thousands
of millions of people maybe who are using mus at
this point. That's just one great story among many. I'm sure.
Speaker 1 (16:32):
Sorry, I'm really really quite choked up. Yeah, there about
half a million people around the world that use news,
but like it's rare that you actually, you know, meet
someone and talk to them and get to connect in
this way, get.
Speaker 2 (16:44):
The personal story. Yeah yeah, yeah, you have a lot
of data, but I'm sure you have a lot of
personal stories like ours too to support what you're doing. Yeah.
It really can make a huge change. And I don't
mean for this podcast episode to sound like an advertisement.
It's not like we are chatting about the neuroscience and
how great this tool is. But it's just something that
(17:04):
I have found to be really helpful, and I know
some of the families that I work with have ordered
it and found good results with it also, So it
was an investment that was very, very very worth it
for sure.
Speaker 1 (17:17):
Wow yeah wow, Well send my love to your daughter.
Speaker 2 (17:21):
Absolutely absolutely, So that was really cool that we were
going to chat and get kind of the behind the scenes.
Speaker 1 (17:28):
Yeah, did she have any questions I could answer for her?
I don't think so.
Speaker 2 (17:32):
Okay, I don't think so. You know, young adult not
so open these days a little bit. But anyway, I
wanted to ask you too about how to weave this
into real life right, we're talking about maybe using it
with kids. We're talking about parents, adults who are stressed,
they're exhausted. You know, we know that it's going to
(17:53):
benefit those things, but often we're in this spot where
we're just stuck in crisis mode and trying to move forward. Word,
how can they weave it into the day to day
where it can start to be helpful?
Speaker 1 (18:06):
Yeah, and I certainly certainly hear you on there's so
many things in the day, how do you add one more.
I was just talking to a friend who's becoming my
running coach because I'm like, I need to exercise, Like,
how can I do this? And she's like, oh, well,
just the beginning of the day or at the end
of I'm like, I have two kids. You don't, it's
hard for you to understand what my life is like.
But like, yeah, yeah, when's that can happen? She's like, oh, well,
(18:28):
just an eight in the morning. You mean while I'm
making breakfast?
Speaker 2 (18:31):
Yeah? Yeah, And that's a long time frame. You're looking
for a bigger tounk of time.
Speaker 1 (18:36):
Yeah. So the good thing about news and meditation is
you can do it for very short periods of time,
and I find it most effective to do in the
evening after my kids are in bed, and then I
can have that time to myself. I can put on
my muse, I can have five minutes, ten minutes, twenty minutes,
whatever I have available, and then do my meditation there.
(18:56):
I also meditate in the morning in bed when I
wake up, because that's the time when either the kids
are not yet awake, or if they are awake and
they holler like, mommy, come into my room, I can
be like, I'm still asleep, give me five minutes, just
five yeah, yeah, And so I find it a great
way to start or end my day. Other people, though,
(19:19):
if your kids are in school, you can, you know,
and you're working, you know, on a lunch break, on
a five minute break, you just need five minutes. And
the key with it is really consistency. So try to
find a place where it's going to fit into your day,
where it can consistently happen. So, you know, maybe it's
every night after you've cleaned up the kitchen and taken
(19:39):
out the garbage and do twelve million things being a
parent entails and you feel super exhausted and you just
want to go to sleep. You're just going to take
five minutes and do this because it's only five.
Speaker 2 (19:49):
Minutes, and start with too, like start with something small.
Speaker 1 (19:54):
Sure, start with two minutes. So we have programs inside
the app like Introduction to Mindfulness, Discover Mind, Biofeedback, where
it just becomes easy because you're listening to two or
three minutes of content and then you're doing a mindfulness
exercise and then you're done. And so you know, instead
of the scrolling of the Instagram or the waking up
(20:14):
on the phone, just put your muse by your bed,
do that instead, and then you can go to sleep
or you can wake up. So hm, you have to
want the benefit of it in order to put it in.
Speaker 2 (20:27):
Yeah, yeah, that's key.
Speaker 1 (20:29):
And when you do put it into your schedule, it
becomes so worthwhile, Like everything just becomes that much easier.
Speaker 2 (20:36):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (20:36):
So it's like one of those things you know, like exercise,
you just feel better for the rest of the day
and thereafter. Just do it and know that the five
minutes is going to make everything else easier.
Speaker 2 (20:47):
Yeah, it's going to save you time later, time stress
that you time ruminating something, right, It's going to save
you time in the long run. And my kidd oh
that's what she did, and she had it by her
bed and before she even got she did the meditation
first and found that really effective to start the day,
kind of giving yourself this even sort of sense, right,
(21:10):
like not waking up and going, oh, I have to
do all these things and I'm so worried about all
these things. Just kind of give herself a little bit
of calm to start out.
Speaker 1 (21:17):
It was amazing, And we also find people that use
it in the evening it improves sleep, so that's also
another great reason to just do it before you go
to bed, and if you have the Muse, so if
you're the Muse too, you can do meditation before we
go to bed if you have the MUSS. We also
have things like something called the Digital Sleeping Pill, which
gives you buyo nerve feedback to help you fall asleep.
(21:37):
I need that we have meditation specifically for sleep, so
you can wear the band and just fall asleep after
your meditation, and then it also tracks your sleep actually
basically as effectively as the EEG. You have a sleep lab,
so it gives you really hot quality sleep data. And
if you're using the Digital Sleeping Pill, if you fall
asleep in the night and you wake up, it starts
(21:58):
to give you a beautiful Audie experience that helps you
fall back asleep. So lots of people who really found
it effective to help them through you know, fragmented sleep
or through that feeling of just lying awake not being
able to sleep because your mind is racing.
Speaker 2 (22:12):
That's me. I've always startled to fall asleep. So yeah,
start using it at night too, then, amazing, what else
do we need to know?
Speaker 1 (22:21):
What?
Speaker 2 (22:22):
Are are there any other like little habits that parents
can instill that will support what we're talking about here,
support self regulasha and that sort of thing.
Speaker 1 (22:33):
Sure, So one is you know, parents and kids meditating
together can be really helpful. You can make it like
a challenge who can meditate longer if you've got the muse.
We have things like birds and points, so you know,
who can get more birds, who can get more points?
That's a great way to get the whole family doing
it and competing with each other.
Speaker 2 (22:53):
Yeah love that.
Speaker 1 (22:54):
Yeah, I smile, because if you want to get a
kid to tie their shoes, they'll never do it. If
you say who can tie your shoes? The fast scrambling
to get their shoes on?
Speaker 2 (23:03):
Yeah, yeah, for most kids. Some of them will making
more ink shows, but for most kids it's like, oh,
I want to win, I can do this, I want
to compete.
Speaker 1 (23:10):
Yeah, And then general tips for parents to self regulate.
One is take frequent breaks to check in and breathe deeply.
So when you take a deep breath, like a slow
exhale on your breath, belly breath, you are triggering your
nervous system to calm down. So when you breathe into
(23:33):
your stomach, it triggers something called your biggest nerve, which
is the nerve in our body responsible for the rest
and digest, for calming and chilling out. And so the
easiest way to reset. If you're starting to feel yourself
being ramped, you know, your muscles, tents, that feeling in
your stomach or your chest, or like that feeling of anger, hatred,
(23:54):
you know, whatever it is. Stop take deep breaths, breathe
into your belly, slow, slow exhales, even if it feels weird,
just you know, do it five times. Calm yourself down,
and then look at the situation from that perspective, because
everything that we are feeling is great, it's there. We
(24:16):
have a right to be feeling that, but it's not
necessarily helpful in the moment. So you know, it's a feeling.
Feelings come, feelings go. You could feel different later. And
so if you take that moment to start to relax
your body and shift your state, you can move yourself
out of that terrible in the moment feeling and then
take a step back and then start it calm, because
(24:38):
we know that if we're ramped and anxious, it's going
to make our kids more ramped and anxious. And it
can feel like you're, you know, a patron saint of calm,
just you know, trying to like chill yourself out constantly
when they're doing things that are really genuinely trying and
difficult and have a lot of emotions for you involved
in it. Yeah, and so all of those difficulties are real,
(25:01):
and you know, whenever you can just remember to stop,
take deep breaths, calm down, and then represent yourself.
Speaker 2 (25:11):
I call it coregulation or co escalation. You can come
in and fuel the fire. You can come in and
bring some calm for your kid tomorrow makes all the
difference in the world. Just taking a breath first before
we respond. Thank you so much for sharing so much
of the science behind us and why it works and
what the benefits are. Can you tell everybody where to
(25:32):
find more information, maybe the studies that you've mentioned, so
that they can learn more about the tool.
Speaker 1 (25:39):
Sure, you can go to choosemuse dot com c h
O O s E m U s E dot com
and there you can see what it is that we've
been talking about, and we have a research tab with
quite a number of studies there on it, and you
can always find us also on all the socials that
at Choose Muse.
Speaker 2 (25:57):
Perfect and I will link all that up in the
show notes, which you can find at parentingadhdan Autism dot
com Slash three one eight for episode three eighteen. It
has been a pleasure, Aril. I am just honored to
have gotten a chance to speak to you and to
learn more about this tool. It's been so amazing for
us and inspired to use it more and to share
(26:20):
it more. And I appreciate the work that you're doing
to help us really improve our day to day lives.
Speaker 1 (26:26):
Oh, thank you so much. What a joy and pleasure
to get to meet you today. Thank you.
Speaker 2 (26:30):
I'll see everybody on the next episode. Take good care.
I see you. You're doing hard and meaningful work, and
you don't have to do it alone. If you found
this episode helpful, share it with someone who needs it
and leave a quick review so others can find this
support too. When you're ready for next steps, the Regulated
(26:52):
Kids Project is here with the tools, coaching, and community
to help you raise a more regulated, resilient childailed get
more info at regulated kids dot com
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