July 9, 2025 • 29 mins
What if the secret to helping your child regulate their emotions… is already playing on your speakers?In this episode, I’m joined by board-certified music therapist and fellow neurodivergent mom, Samantha Foote, to explore how music can be a powerful (and joyful!) regulation tool for kids with ADHD, autism, and other complex needs. We chat about everything from angry drumming sessions between siblings to writing silly blues songs to cueing transitions with the right rhythm.
Samantha shares how rhythm is hardwired into our bodies — and how we can use that to our advantage when emotions run high. Whether your kid calms to classical, beatboxes their stress away, or creates heavy metal drum loops on an iPad, this episode is packed with practical ways to make music work for your beautifully complex child.
Listen now and discover how one song could be the bridge between chaos and calm.
You can find additional resources at parentingadhdandautism.com and Regulated Kids.com — because it’s not just about the struggles, it’s about progress, one step at a time.
Show notes and more resources at parentingadhdandautism.com/319
Become a supporter of this podcast: https://www.spreaker.com/podcast/beautifully-complex--6137613/support.
Samantha shares how rhythm is hardwired into our bodies — and how we can use that to our advantage when emotions run high. Whether your kid calms to classical, beatboxes their stress away, or creates heavy metal drum loops on an iPad, this episode is packed with practical ways to make music work for your beautifully complex child.
Listen now and discover how one song could be the bridge between chaos and calm.
You can find additional resources at parentingadhdandautism.com and Regulated Kids.com — because it’s not just about the struggles, it’s about progress, one step at a time.
Show notes and more resources at parentingadhdandautism.com/319
Become a supporter of this podcast: https://www.spreaker.com/podcast/beautifully-complex--6137613/support.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:02):
So rhythm is innate in our bodies, like our bodies
are rhythmic, like your heartbeat, you're breathing all of its rhythm.
And there's actually this sing in neurologic music therapy where
rhythm can prime your brain for different actions. So if
you have a stroke, if you have a praxio, whatever,
(00:22):
I can prime your brain to do those actions that
it wouldn't be able to do by itself. And so
rhythm is super cool.
Speaker 2 (00:31):
Welcome to Beautifully Complex, where we unpack what it really
means to parent neurodivergent kids with dignity and clarity. I'm
Penny Williams, and I know firsthand how tough and transformative
this journey can be. Let's dive in and discover how
to raise regulated, resilient, beautifully complex kids together. Oh and
(00:52):
if you want more support, join our free community at
hub dot beautifully complex dot life. Welcome back everyone to
Beautifully Complex. I am really excited to be talking to
Samantha Foot today about the role of music and music
(01:13):
therapy in emotional regulation, in parenting neudiversent kids, even in
I think the human experience honestly for everyone, and we're
going to have a wonderful conversation that I think is
really going to empower those of you who are listening
to integrate music more and to seek out therapeutic ways
(01:37):
to use music as a tool for fostering emotional regulation
in other ways. I'm sure we'll talk about as well, Samantha.
Will you start by letting everybody know who you are
and what you do?
Speaker 1 (01:51):
Yeah, So I am neudivergent. I've been diagnosed with ADHD,
and then I'm also a mom to three kids diagnosed
with eighty autism, auditory processing disorder, lots of other things.
And I have been a board certified music therapist for
about fourteen years and I work with nerdivigent kids mostly.
(02:13):
I work with adults too, mainly on communication, social skills,
emotional regulation, things like that.
Speaker 2 (02:21):
Awesome. Were you doing this work before you were the
parent of nerdiversent kids.
Speaker 1 (02:28):
Yes. It was funny because I was working with this
kid and his mom was like, you are so good
at working with nerdivigent kids, or she said autistic kids.
Your kids are going to have autism, and I was like,
that's not how that works. But when you marry someone
whose family has autism in the family.
Speaker 2 (02:47):
That is how that works for sure. Yeah, so many
of us come to this work because of our nerdiversion kids,
and I always find it extra interesting when it was
work you were already doing, and then you get to
combine both of those things. You know, you get to
have both the experience wisdom to share, but also your
(03:11):
professional knowledge. I think it's kind of a double blessing
almost for the people that you're working with, the kids
and the family, So it's amazing. Can we start by
talking about how music and emotional regulation are connected, maybe
where you had that moment of connection or that aha,
(03:34):
and why there's such a strong connection between the two.
Speaker 1 (03:38):
Yeah. I have been playing the piano since I was four,
and that has always been my emotional outlet. So I
would come home from school and practice the piano, and
my mom knew exactly how I was feeling based on
how I played a song, because I could play the
same song in an angry way, in a happy way,
(03:59):
in a way. She would come in after I was
done playing and say, Okay, what's going on? Why are
you so angry? And then we could talk about it.
But I really like the quote when words fail, music speaks,
and I think that captures what music is is that
it's another language that you can express yourself in and
(04:22):
it does convey things that words just can't. And so
when you're feeling like angry or sad or whatever, you
can listen to different music and it can help calm
you down. It's actually there's this phrase or this word
in music therapy called the isoprinciple, and it's how you
can take music and if you're angry or sad or
(04:44):
mad or whatever, you listen to that music and then
you slowly go to the emotion that you want to
be feeling. So, if you're really angry, you listen to
angry music and then you let your body fill those emotions.
You go through all the emotion you know, and then
you slowly move toward calm music or happy music, and
(05:04):
that just helps your body kind of move through those
emotions and not get stuck in the anger.
Speaker 2 (05:11):
Yeah. I love that. And we're a musical family. I'm not,
but every my husband and my neurodivergent kid are, and
music is kind of everything for them, like it is
the lifeblood for them to keep moving throughout the day.
And I love that you're talking about helping us process
(05:32):
emotions and I think maybe like I feel like when
we hit the teen years typically maybe not typically, but
for me, that was when I really started getting into music.
And I think that's also when we really struggle with
processing our emotions, and we're having lots of big emotions
and lots of changes right that are coming through, and
(05:53):
it is such a good way to feel what we're
feeling and maybe something that feels safe to us in
a way that feel safe to our nervous systems. Do
you want to talk a little bit about rhythm as well,
because I know that rhythm is so powerful in regulation
and in our bodies and our nervous systems. How do
you use that maybe through music therapy or how can
(06:15):
parents use it at home to help with regulation?
Speaker 1 (06:19):
Yeah, so rhythm is innate in our bodies, Like our
bodies are rhythmic, like your heart beating, you're breathing all
of its rhythm. And there's actually this thing in neurologic
music therapy where rhythm can prime your brain for different actions.
So if you have a stroke, if you have a praxio, whatever,
(06:40):
I can prime your brain to do those actions that
it wouldn't be able to do by itself. And so
rhythm is super cool, but I like to use it
for emotional regulation, where let's say, Okay, I'm just going
to tell you a story. I had two siblings come
into my music therapy clinic and they were just arguing
(07:01):
and fighting and yelling each other, and I said, okay,
you sit in this corner of the room. You sit
in this corner of the room. I gave them both
a drum and I said, just drum it out. Just
express your emotions, pretend you're talking, and just drum to
that other person what you're feeling. And I said, you
can't interrupt each other though, you have to wait until
that person's done. And so they were very aggressive in
(07:23):
their drumming when it first started, and then as time
went on, they got less and less aggressive until it
was more calm. Then they were able to actually have
a conversation together and work it out. And so, like
I said before, it's just that other language that you
don't have a grasp on the words to use, but
(07:44):
you can feel the rhythm in your body and then
it helps you move through the emotions and calm down.
And so the rhythm, like when you get the right rhythm,
you can just like kind of attach it to your body,
I guess, and helps you move through thing is that way,
and helps you accomplish things that you wouldn't normally be
able to do.
Speaker 2 (08:03):
Yeah. Yeah, And what strikes me about that story too,
is that it's coregulation. Yeah, Like they were sort of
escalating each other when they came in, but you gave
them the tools and the strategy to not only process
those emotions but also to start coregulating to help to
calm down, which is amazing.
Speaker 1 (08:25):
Yeah, And I always recommend to parents that if you
do that with your kid, So let's say they really
like drumming or they can use that as a way
to calm down when they're escalated, match their energy. So
you might not be escalated, but they are, and so
match their energy while they're drumming and then come down
as they come down, and then that will help them coregulate.
Speaker 2 (08:46):
Like you were saying, Yeah, you know, we talk a
lot about we have to come into a situation calm
We have to be regulated ourselves. If we want to
help another kid regulate, there are times where we need
to start by the energy, not necessarily the emotion, right,
but the energy. And I love that you brought that
up because we don't talk about that aspect of coregulation enough,
(09:10):
and it's such a good point. And I'm just imagining
like families now getting little bongo drums or something, and
every time there's a sibling argument, it's like, Okay, go
to your corners, get your drums. Like we're working this
out right. It's a totally different way to handle a
challenging situation and a great way, right, instead of lecturing,
instead of punishing, instead of all these sort of reactive
(09:34):
responses we might have, pulling out music, Implementing music can
really change a situation, could change that tone and energy. Right,
as you're talking about, do you want to talk to
us a little bit about how music therapy helps to
support all the different brains? Right? I know you talk
(09:54):
about the fact that every brain is different. Maybe start
with what is music therapy and then talk to us
about how it really is so good at being individualized
so that it meets every kid kind of where they are,
every brain where they are, every nervous systole ry where
they are.
Speaker 1 (10:12):
Yeah, So music therapy is just using music to accomplish
non musical goals. I generally work on social skills communication,
motor skills, cognitive skills, and emotional regulation. And then music
therapists are everywhere, like they're in prisons and hospitals and
hospice and you know, adult day centers, all those different places,
(10:36):
and music is perfectly suited for every brain because all
music is so different, Like there's so many different kinds
of music that you can use. So people are always like,
what music do I use with my kid if he's angry,
And I say, I have no idea, Like I have
to get to know your kid, like what music makes
(10:57):
him angry or what music does he like to listen
to when he's angry, because I like to listen to
breakup songs, country breakup songs, you know, and my husband
like looks at me every time I listen to those,
and he's like, what are you okay?
Speaker 2 (11:12):
Are we okay?
Speaker 1 (11:15):
And I'm like, yeah, we're totally fine. I'm just feeling
a little angry right now, and singing these songs helps
me calm down. And so I love music because it
can be so different for every person and every person
interprets it differently, and so yeah, everyone always asks me
what music do you use for music therapy? I use
(11:36):
it all like, it just depends what the kids need.
And so like this one kid, he likes Asian like
movie music, and I had never really been exposed to
that before, and so listening to that with him and
exploring that with him was really fun. Where Another Girl,
the only song that we ever listened to and the
(11:57):
only song I ever sang was Baby Shark. So it's
just all across the spectrum of the music that you
can use the different clients.
Speaker 2 (12:08):
Yeah, I just had Sheldon of Big Bang Theory pop
into my head and his soft Kiddy song that everybody
had to sing to him when he was upset or sick. Yeah,
like we do sort of attach different feelings to different songs.
They make us feel different ways, and sometimes it's like, Okay,
this one song is what I need at this particular moment,
(12:32):
or it could be this one genre right of songs,
just one type. I've talked many times on the podcast
about this before, and it's worth bringing up again that
my son uses heavy metal music to calm himself, right,
and it does that for him, where for me it's
too fast, it's too much if my nervous system is
(12:55):
already triggered, Like I can't handle that I need something
more soothing, where he needs that really heavy rhythmic beat.
And he even especially in high school. I don't think
he does it as much now, but he's not as
stressed out as he was in school now. But he
would make drum beats on his iPad. He had an
app for that. If he was getting really just regulated
(13:18):
in school, he would, you know, either turn one on
that he'd already created or create a new one. It
was therapeutic, you know, for him. But yeah, be really
open minded as to what music will help with what emotion, right,
and what it can do to each individual's nervous system,
because it can be really counterintuitive to how you think
(13:38):
about it or you feel about it, right, Yeah, for sure.
Speaker 1 (13:41):
And I just wanted to say, you brought up a
really good point about using like a computer program to
make up beats. I had a client who did that
and whenever he get mad, it just calmed him down.
And so he was able to have better family relationships
because of that. And so I was just gonna recommend
some really good programs. There's Garage Band on all Apple products,
(14:06):
it's free, and then launch Pad is good that he
was using. And then there's one that I've been using
called in credit Box, and it's so fun because it's
just like you get a group of things that you
can choose from, like beats you can choose from, and
then it just has guys like lined up across the
screen and you just assign an option to each guy
(14:30):
and then he does it and it's like beatboxing. So
it's not your typical drums, but it's beatboxing. And that
has been so good with my clients who are non
speaking they're trying to beat box. And then I actually
found research that supported beatboxing actually increases language, and so
it was just really fun to see that and see
(14:52):
how they're improving and that, you know, everyone's like, oh,
they're on the iPad. It's like they're frying their brain.
They're on the iPad so much. But there's some really
cool things that you can use on tablets to calm,
you know, like to emotionally regulate, to learn to speak more,
like all that different stuff.
Speaker 2 (15:11):
Yeah, there's so much, like I guess we could call
it wellness tech now. In the episode that I recorded yesterday,
I was speaking with the co founder of Meos, which
is a neurofeedback band that you wear and it has
an app and it gives you feedback as you're meditating
or doing a mindfulness practice. It starts playing like storm
(15:33):
sounds if your attention is waning and you're not focused,
to help you come back right. And we had this
conversation about how like we're so upset about screens and
all the screen uses, all the tech, and some kids
do spend way too much time on screens, but there's
also technology that can be really healthy and beneficial in moderation.
(15:55):
Everything is in moderation, right, So yeah, launch Pad was
what my son used where don I'm gonna ask him
if he's seen in credit box too. It sounds familiar,
so he might have used that one in the past too.
And it's so much fun, right, It's a creative outlet
as well. It's the rhythm, it's the regulation, but it's
also a really great way to be creative. And I
(16:17):
think so many of our neurodiversion kids are super creative,
and so it's just something really fun for them. Can
we talk a little bit about when kids are in fight,
(16:38):
flight or freeze, they're just regulated. They're in the thick
of it. Parents are in the thick of it. Is
that a time that we can use music to help
to regulate. And what does that look like? I would
imagine there's some dues and don'ts. You know, I talk
a lot with parents about you know, when your kids
(16:58):
just regulated less talk talking less words, right, they need less?
So what does that look like with music in those
times where we're really down in it?
Speaker 1 (17:08):
Yeah, so definitely use less words. That was the first
thing I was gonna say. Yeah, and then if there's
a song that you know calms them down, you can
just put it on very quietly, don't overstimulate them, don't
overwhelm them with the song. When I am in sessions
with my clients and they become overwhelmed or overstimulated, I'll
(17:30):
just play the ukulele just slowly and then it calms
them down. I don't say anything, and sometimes they'll tell
me to stop, and I respect that, but sometimes they'll
just like sit down and just calmly listen to it
for a while. So if you have a song that
you know calms them down, definitely use that. It's not
(17:52):
the time to be like, okay, we're gonna get out.
It's not the time to teach new skills. Yeah, So
you can talk about it before they get to that point, like, oh,
when you get upset, I'm going to do this, and
so you might practice drumming, and so when they do
get upset, you can hand them a drum and they'll
know what to do with it instead of just chucking
(18:13):
it across the room right, you know. But if you
wait until they're in crisis, nothing is going to work
because they don't know what you're doing and they're in crisis.
So I recommend just practicing things before, like picking a
song that they like and you know, calms them down,
and then practicing other things so before they get to
(18:34):
that point, you can do like musical breaks, so you
can like improvise on an instrument with them, or have
a dance party, or do drumming together, or sing a
song or write songs together. There's some really cool like templates,
that's the word I'm trying to think of. There's some
cool templates online that if you google mad libs songs,
(18:58):
it will come up with a temp. It will come
up with a song and they'll just do it mad
lib style where they'll just erase some of the words
or take out some of the words and you can
add those words in and so you can do it
in a silly way, like the kid doesn't know what
the song's about. You can just say, okay, give me
a noun, give me a verb, give me an adjective.
(19:18):
Or you can do it in a more serious way
where you say, okay, the song is about this, what
word could go in this spot? And that way it
helps keep the kids so they're not getting over stimulated,
because music can help with stress reduction, and so if
they're not getting to that point of overstimulation, then you
(19:40):
don't have to worry about what to do when they're overstimulated.
But if you can just do some musical breaks with them,
that can help them not become so overstimulated.
Speaker 2 (19:51):
I feel like too, you can have conversations when things
are good and say, you know, sometimes when you're having
a really hard time, I want to help you. Do
you think there's particular music, particular song that if I
played it it would help you out? Right? Like you
can establish that ahead of time too. But definitely no
teaching in those moments. Yeah, no problem solving, No anything
(20:13):
that's super intensive. It just doesn't work because our thinking
brains are offline at that point. Yeah, can we talk
about any other strategies that you have, any other simple
ways that we can maybe incorporate music into our daily routines.
Parents have a full plate, right, We're really busy, there's
(20:35):
lots going on. We don't want to add a lot
of time. How do we weave it into what we're
already doing.
Speaker 1 (20:40):
Yeah, so I would say have playlists ready to go. So,
for example, if your kid is angry and you want
to use the ISO principle to get them to come,
have a playlist ready to go where you can just
hit playing. You don't have to go searching for the songs.
You can just play the playlist and help them get
(21:01):
to where they need to be. The other thing is
you can use music for transitions. So if your kid
has especially like pathologic demand avoidance, where they go into
fight or flight just by you asking them to do something.
And we know that a lot of neurodivergent kids have
trouble with transitions, and so if your kid goes into
(21:22):
fight or flight every time they have a transition because
you're asking them to transition to do something new, you
could have a song that plays, or you can have
just an interlude that plays and they know when they
hear that song that they have until the end of
the song to transition to the next activity. So if
it's a five minute song, they have that whole five
(21:42):
minutes to transition. And it's not you telling them, Hey,
you need to go get your shoes on. Why aren't
you putting your shoes on? Go get your shoes on.
They just know that, Okay, I hear this song, I
need to stop what I'm doing, and then I need
to go get my shoes on. Yeah, and then you
can have like a visual schedule, so if they don't
know what they need to do, they can look at
(22:03):
their schedule and say, okay, I'm doing this right now.
So let's say they're putting on their clothes and then
the song starts and they need to go make their
lunch or something. I don't know. You can have the
visual schedule there so it reminds them of what they
need to be doing, so they don't have to remember.
Speaker 2 (22:20):
All of that. Yeah. Taking yourself out of the equation
a little bit. I always talk to parents and coaching
about how do we set up systems and strategies and
tools so that at some point we can take you
out of the middle. Of it, and they can succeed
with that strategy or tool all without us in the
middle of it. And you know, a great start to
(22:41):
not nagging is using a different way to queue, right, Yeah,
different signals other than a parent asking or demanding that
things be done. I love that. Yeah. My son's first
grade teacher was amazing with music for transitions. She had
particular songs for every transition throughout the day. Kids knew, oh,
(23:02):
the song came on, it's time to clean up what
I'm doing and go to my desk, or it's time
to get up and go to carpet time. She even
had music for math, just all kinds of music. It
was amazing and it really engaged every kid, right, So
instead of you know, my distractable hyper a little thing right,
(23:24):
not hearing instructions or not being able to respond right away,
the music was the cue that really helped him to
be able to make those transitions easier. And I'm sure
that was true for a lot of kids in that classroom.
So you know, we can use it not just at home,
but in most any environment.
Speaker 1 (23:42):
Yea.
Speaker 2 (23:42):
I would play particular songs in the car, especially on
the way to school because school was so stressful. So
I learned what to play and not to play, and
I was not allowed to sing along ever, So I
could not play songs that I couldn't help myself, but
to sing along because it was really upsetting to him
listen to somebody sing along or kids songs, kids singing
(24:04):
like kids Bop or whatever, like regular songs but with
a bunch of kids singing and could not stand it.
I've never quite figured it out, but that was really
interesting for a really long time. That would just send
him over the adge. So you have to know your kid, like,
not every song for kids is going to work for
your kid. You know, not every kid is going to
(24:24):
even like kids music. Some of them are going to
want more adult or nuanced music. So really getting to
know our kids, I think is one of the biggest
keys that you're sharing with us here.
Speaker 1 (24:36):
Yeah, and for kids who don't like kid music, I
would recommend listening to Stephanie Lovel's music because it doesn't
sound like kid music, but it is like it's age appropriate, right,
but it doesn't sound like kid music. And I use
her music all the time because my kids didn't like
(24:56):
kid music either. My son did not like music when
he was born, I took him to like a mommy
and me music class, and he cried through the whole thing,
and so we stopped going obviously, like after a couple
of times, you know, And he did not like listening
to music, Like every time I turned music on, he
(25:18):
would cry. And then when he was three years old,
he found the song the theme song to Cops. That
was his song. And then he found the theme song
of Oh, it's a Kenny Loggins song, the Camber. No,
it's it's on the movie with Tom Cruise in the eighties.
Speaker 2 (25:40):
Some people will know he loved, love, love.
Speaker 1 (25:43):
Those songs, and those two songs were the only songs
that we could play or he'd become overstimulated, overwhelmed and
just cry and have meltdowns. So it's just really interesting.
And now he can listen to anything. He's ten years
old and he can listen to pretty much anything. But yeah,
it was really interesting. When he was a baby, this
(26:04):
music was way too overstimulating for him.
Speaker 2 (26:06):
And so that's okay, Like, yeah.
Speaker 1 (26:09):
We talk about all these music strategies, but if your
kids are over stimulated by music, don't force it. Just
find something else that they like.
Speaker 2 (26:18):
Yeah, Yeah, for sure. So what is one small, actionable
way that parents or teachers walking away from listening to
this conversation can begin to use music as a tool
as a strategy.
Speaker 1 (26:35):
I would just build in a musical break every day
for your kid, whether that's playing an instrument, having a
dance party, making up silly songs. So writing blues songs
is really easy because it's problem problem solution. So if
your kid is hungry, you can say, oh you are hungry,
(26:57):
Oh you are hungry, let's go eat us sandwich. And
so you can just make up silly songs like that.
And that might seem overwhelming for some people. So just
start small, just you know, churn on a dance song
in the morning to get going if that's something that
your kid likes, or turn on a song at night
(27:17):
when you need to clean up the house and say, okay,
we're gonna clean while this song is playing. And just
pick one of those things. And if people need ideas,
I mean, message me, and I can give you lots
of ideas and how you can use music in your life,
but just pick one of those simple musical things that
you can do throughout the day and just start doing
that one thing every day.
Speaker 2 (27:39):
Love that tell everybody where they can find you online
so that they can learn more from you, maybe work
with you.
Speaker 1 (27:45):
Yeah, you can go to every brain isdifferent dot com
and you'll find more information about me, more information about
the services that I offer, and if you want to
follow me on Instagram or anything like that, that will
all be on there.
Speaker 2 (27:58):
And I'll link all of that up for everyone in
the show notes to make it really easy to find
at PARENTINGADHD and autism dot com Slash three one nine
for episode three nineteen. You have inspired me, Samantha, to
incorporate more music in my day and maybe start the day.
I was doing that for a while. I would sit
(28:20):
with coffee and put on some music and I always
felt better. And then I just get busy and I'm like, eh,
you know later, and I get away from it. And
so now I'm gonna make it a point. I'm going
to get back to having more music in my day,
and hopefully parents and teachers listening are also inspired to
do the same and to really help their kids grow. Right,
(28:43):
we're talking about emotional growth and regulation. So I appreciate
so much the work that you're doing, and you're sharing
some of your time and wisdom with us today. It's
really appreciated.
Speaker 1 (28:54):
Yeah, thank you.
Speaker 2 (28:55):
I will see everybody in the next episode. Take good care.
I see you. You're doing hard and meaningful work and
you don't have to do it alone. If you found
this episode helpful, share it with someone who needs it
and leave a quick review so others can find this
support too. When you're ready for next steps, the Regulated
(29:17):
Kids Project is here with the tools, coaching, and community
to help you raise a more regulated, resilient child. Get
more info at regulated kids dot com.
So rhythm is innate in our bodies, like our bodies
are rhythmic, like your heartbeat, you're breathing all of its rhythm.
And there's actually this sing in neurologic music therapy where
rhythm can prime your brain for different actions. So if
you have a stroke, if you have a praxio, whatever,
(00:22):
I can prime your brain to do those actions that
it wouldn't be able to do by itself. And so
rhythm is super cool.
Speaker 2 (00:31):
Welcome to Beautifully Complex, where we unpack what it really
means to parent neurodivergent kids with dignity and clarity. I'm
Penny Williams, and I know firsthand how tough and transformative
this journey can be. Let's dive in and discover how
to raise regulated, resilient, beautifully complex kids together. Oh and
(00:52):
if you want more support, join our free community at
hub dot beautifully complex dot life. Welcome back everyone to
Beautifully Complex. I am really excited to be talking to
Samantha Foot today about the role of music and music
(01:13):
therapy in emotional regulation, in parenting neudiversent kids, even in
I think the human experience honestly for everyone, and we're
going to have a wonderful conversation that I think is
really going to empower those of you who are listening
to integrate music more and to seek out therapeutic ways
(01:37):
to use music as a tool for fostering emotional regulation
in other ways. I'm sure we'll talk about as well, Samantha.
Will you start by letting everybody know who you are
and what you do?
Speaker 1 (01:51):
Yeah, So I am neudivergent. I've been diagnosed with ADHD,
and then I'm also a mom to three kids diagnosed
with eighty autism, auditory processing disorder, lots of other things.
And I have been a board certified music therapist for
about fourteen years and I work with nerdivigent kids mostly.
(02:13):
I work with adults too, mainly on communication, social skills,
emotional regulation, things like that.
Speaker 2 (02:21):
Awesome. Were you doing this work before you were the
parent of nerdiversent kids.
Speaker 1 (02:28):
Yes. It was funny because I was working with this
kid and his mom was like, you are so good
at working with nerdivigent kids, or she said autistic kids.
Your kids are going to have autism, and I was like,
that's not how that works. But when you marry someone
whose family has autism in the family.
Speaker 2 (02:47):
That is how that works for sure. Yeah, so many
of us come to this work because of our nerdiversion kids,
and I always find it extra interesting when it was
work you were already doing, and then you get to
combine both of those things. You know, you get to
have both the experience wisdom to share, but also your
(03:11):
professional knowledge. I think it's kind of a double blessing
almost for the people that you're working with, the kids
and the family, So it's amazing. Can we start by
talking about how music and emotional regulation are connected, maybe
where you had that moment of connection or that aha,
(03:34):
and why there's such a strong connection between the two.
Speaker 1 (03:38):
Yeah. I have been playing the piano since I was four,
and that has always been my emotional outlet. So I
would come home from school and practice the piano, and
my mom knew exactly how I was feeling based on
how I played a song, because I could play the
same song in an angry way, in a happy way,
(03:59):
in a way. She would come in after I was
done playing and say, Okay, what's going on? Why are
you so angry? And then we could talk about it.
But I really like the quote when words fail, music speaks,
and I think that captures what music is is that
it's another language that you can express yourself in and
(04:22):
it does convey things that words just can't. And so
when you're feeling like angry or sad or whatever, you
can listen to different music and it can help calm
you down. It's actually there's this phrase or this word
in music therapy called the isoprinciple, and it's how you
can take music and if you're angry or sad or
(04:44):
mad or whatever, you listen to that music and then
you slowly go to the emotion that you want to
be feeling. So, if you're really angry, you listen to
angry music and then you let your body fill those emotions.
You go through all the emotion you know, and then
you slowly move toward calm music or happy music, and
(05:04):
that just helps your body kind of move through those
emotions and not get stuck in the anger.
Speaker 2 (05:11):
Yeah. I love that. And we're a musical family. I'm not,
but every my husband and my neurodivergent kid are, and
music is kind of everything for them, like it is
the lifeblood for them to keep moving throughout the day.
And I love that you're talking about helping us process
(05:32):
emotions and I think maybe like I feel like when
we hit the teen years typically maybe not typically, but
for me, that was when I really started getting into music.
And I think that's also when we really struggle with
processing our emotions, and we're having lots of big emotions
and lots of changes right that are coming through, and
(05:53):
it is such a good way to feel what we're
feeling and maybe something that feels safe to us in
a way that feel safe to our nervous systems. Do
you want to talk a little bit about rhythm as well,
because I know that rhythm is so powerful in regulation
and in our bodies and our nervous systems. How do
you use that maybe through music therapy or how can
(06:15):
parents use it at home to help with regulation?
Speaker 1 (06:19):
Yeah, so rhythm is innate in our bodies, Like our
bodies are rhythmic, like your heart beating, you're breathing all
of its rhythm. And there's actually this thing in neurologic
music therapy where rhythm can prime your brain for different actions.
So if you have a stroke, if you have a praxio, whatever,
(06:40):
I can prime your brain to do those actions that
it wouldn't be able to do by itself. And so
rhythm is super cool, but I like to use it
for emotional regulation, where let's say, Okay, I'm just going
to tell you a story. I had two siblings come
into my music therapy clinic and they were just arguing
(07:01):
and fighting and yelling each other, and I said, okay,
you sit in this corner of the room. You sit
in this corner of the room. I gave them both
a drum and I said, just drum it out. Just
express your emotions, pretend you're talking, and just drum to
that other person what you're feeling. And I said, you
can't interrupt each other though, you have to wait until
that person's done. And so they were very aggressive in
(07:23):
their drumming when it first started, and then as time
went on, they got less and less aggressive until it
was more calm. Then they were able to actually have
a conversation together and work it out. And so, like
I said before, it's just that other language that you
don't have a grasp on the words to use, but
(07:44):
you can feel the rhythm in your body and then
it helps you move through the emotions and calm down.
And so the rhythm, like when you get the right rhythm,
you can just like kind of attach it to your body,
I guess, and helps you move through thing is that way,
and helps you accomplish things that you wouldn't normally be
able to do.
Speaker 2 (08:03):
Yeah. Yeah, And what strikes me about that story too,
is that it's coregulation. Yeah, Like they were sort of
escalating each other when they came in, but you gave
them the tools and the strategy to not only process
those emotions but also to start coregulating to help to
calm down, which is amazing.
Speaker 1 (08:25):
Yeah, And I always recommend to parents that if you
do that with your kid, So let's say they really
like drumming or they can use that as a way
to calm down when they're escalated, match their energy. So
you might not be escalated, but they are, and so
match their energy while they're drumming and then come down
as they come down, and then that will help them coregulate.
Speaker 2 (08:46):
Like you were saying, Yeah, you know, we talk a
lot about we have to come into a situation calm
We have to be regulated ourselves. If we want to
help another kid regulate, there are times where we need
to start by the energy, not necessarily the emotion, right,
but the energy. And I love that you brought that
up because we don't talk about that aspect of coregulation enough,
(09:10):
and it's such a good point. And I'm just imagining
like families now getting little bongo drums or something, and
every time there's a sibling argument, it's like, Okay, go
to your corners, get your drums. Like we're working this
out right. It's a totally different way to handle a
challenging situation and a great way, right, instead of lecturing,
instead of punishing, instead of all these sort of reactive
(09:34):
responses we might have, pulling out music, Implementing music can
really change a situation, could change that tone and energy. Right,
as you're talking about, do you want to talk to
us a little bit about how music therapy helps to
support all the different brains? Right? I know you talk
(09:54):
about the fact that every brain is different. Maybe start
with what is music therapy and then talk to us
about how it really is so good at being individualized
so that it meets every kid kind of where they are,
every brain where they are, every nervous systole ry where
they are.
Speaker 1 (10:12):
Yeah, So music therapy is just using music to accomplish
non musical goals. I generally work on social skills communication,
motor skills, cognitive skills, and emotional regulation. And then music
therapists are everywhere, like they're in prisons and hospitals and
hospice and you know, adult day centers, all those different places,
(10:36):
and music is perfectly suited for every brain because all
music is so different, Like there's so many different kinds
of music that you can use. So people are always like,
what music do I use with my kid if he's angry,
And I say, I have no idea, Like I have
to get to know your kid, like what music makes
(10:57):
him angry or what music does he like to listen
to when he's angry, because I like to listen to
breakup songs, country breakup songs, you know, and my husband
like looks at me every time I listen to those,
and he's like, what are you okay?
Speaker 2 (11:12):
Are we okay?
Speaker 1 (11:15):
And I'm like, yeah, we're totally fine. I'm just feeling
a little angry right now, and singing these songs helps
me calm down. And so I love music because it
can be so different for every person and every person
interprets it differently, and so yeah, everyone always asks me
what music do you use for music therapy? I use
(11:36):
it all like, it just depends what the kids need.
And so like this one kid, he likes Asian like
movie music, and I had never really been exposed to
that before, and so listening to that with him and
exploring that with him was really fun. Where Another Girl,
the only song that we ever listened to and the
(11:57):
only song I ever sang was Baby Shark. So it's
just all across the spectrum of the music that you
can use the different clients.
Speaker 2 (12:08):
Yeah, I just had Sheldon of Big Bang Theory pop
into my head and his soft Kiddy song that everybody
had to sing to him when he was upset or sick. Yeah,
like we do sort of attach different feelings to different songs.
They make us feel different ways, and sometimes it's like, Okay,
this one song is what I need at this particular moment,
(12:32):
or it could be this one genre right of songs,
just one type. I've talked many times on the podcast
about this before, and it's worth bringing up again that
my son uses heavy metal music to calm himself, right,
and it does that for him, where for me it's
too fast, it's too much if my nervous system is
(12:55):
already triggered, Like I can't handle that I need something
more soothing, where he needs that really heavy rhythmic beat.
And he even especially in high school. I don't think
he does it as much now, but he's not as
stressed out as he was in school now. But he
would make drum beats on his iPad. He had an
app for that. If he was getting really just regulated
(13:18):
in school, he would, you know, either turn one on
that he'd already created or create a new one. It
was therapeutic, you know, for him. But yeah, be really
open minded as to what music will help with what emotion, right,
and what it can do to each individual's nervous system,
because it can be really counterintuitive to how you think
(13:38):
about it or you feel about it, right, Yeah, for sure.
Speaker 1 (13:41):
And I just wanted to say, you brought up a
really good point about using like a computer program to
make up beats. I had a client who did that
and whenever he get mad, it just calmed him down.
And so he was able to have better family relationships
because of that. And so I was just gonna recommend
some really good programs. There's Garage Band on all Apple products,
(14:06):
it's free, and then launch Pad is good that he
was using. And then there's one that I've been using
called in credit Box, and it's so fun because it's
just like you get a group of things that you
can choose from, like beats you can choose from, and
then it just has guys like lined up across the
screen and you just assign an option to each guy
(14:30):
and then he does it and it's like beatboxing. So
it's not your typical drums, but it's beatboxing. And that
has been so good with my clients who are non
speaking they're trying to beat box. And then I actually
found research that supported beatboxing actually increases language, and so
it was just really fun to see that and see
(14:52):
how they're improving and that, you know, everyone's like, oh,
they're on the iPad. It's like they're frying their brain.
They're on the iPad so much. But there's some really
cool things that you can use on tablets to calm,
you know, like to emotionally regulate, to learn to speak more,
like all that different stuff.
Speaker 2 (15:11):
Yeah, there's so much, like I guess we could call
it wellness tech now. In the episode that I recorded yesterday,
I was speaking with the co founder of Meos, which
is a neurofeedback band that you wear and it has
an app and it gives you feedback as you're meditating
or doing a mindfulness practice. It starts playing like storm
(15:33):
sounds if your attention is waning and you're not focused,
to help you come back right. And we had this
conversation about how like we're so upset about screens and
all the screen uses, all the tech, and some kids
do spend way too much time on screens, but there's
also technology that can be really healthy and beneficial in moderation.
(15:55):
Everything is in moderation, right, So yeah, launch Pad was
what my son used where don I'm gonna ask him
if he's seen in credit box too. It sounds familiar,
so he might have used that one in the past too.
And it's so much fun, right, It's a creative outlet
as well. It's the rhythm, it's the regulation, but it's
also a really great way to be creative. And I
(16:17):
think so many of our neurodiversion kids are super creative,
and so it's just something really fun for them. Can
we talk a little bit about when kids are in fight,
(16:38):
flight or freeze, they're just regulated. They're in the thick
of it. Parents are in the thick of it. Is
that a time that we can use music to help
to regulate. And what does that look like? I would
imagine there's some dues and don'ts. You know, I talk
a lot with parents about you know, when your kids
(16:58):
just regulated less talk talking less words, right, they need less?
So what does that look like with music in those
times where we're really down in it?
Speaker 1 (17:08):
Yeah, so definitely use less words. That was the first
thing I was gonna say. Yeah, and then if there's
a song that you know calms them down, you can
just put it on very quietly, don't overstimulate them, don't
overwhelm them with the song. When I am in sessions
with my clients and they become overwhelmed or overstimulated, I'll
(17:30):
just play the ukulele just slowly and then it calms
them down. I don't say anything, and sometimes they'll tell
me to stop, and I respect that, but sometimes they'll
just like sit down and just calmly listen to it
for a while. So if you have a song that
you know calms them down, definitely use that. It's not
(17:52):
the time to be like, okay, we're gonna get out.
It's not the time to teach new skills. Yeah, So
you can talk about it before they get to that point, like, oh,
when you get upset, I'm going to do this, and
so you might practice drumming, and so when they do
get upset, you can hand them a drum and they'll
know what to do with it instead of just chucking
(18:13):
it across the room right, you know. But if you
wait until they're in crisis, nothing is going to work
because they don't know what you're doing and they're in crisis.
So I recommend just practicing things before, like picking a
song that they like and you know, calms them down,
and then practicing other things so before they get to
(18:34):
that point, you can do like musical breaks, so you
can like improvise on an instrument with them, or have
a dance party, or do drumming together, or sing a
song or write songs together. There's some really cool like templates,
that's the word I'm trying to think of. There's some
cool templates online that if you google mad libs songs,
(18:58):
it will come up with a temp. It will come
up with a song and they'll just do it mad
lib style where they'll just erase some of the words
or take out some of the words and you can
add those words in and so you can do it
in a silly way, like the kid doesn't know what
the song's about. You can just say, okay, give me
a noun, give me a verb, give me an adjective.
(19:18):
Or you can do it in a more serious way
where you say, okay, the song is about this, what
word could go in this spot? And that way it
helps keep the kids so they're not getting over stimulated,
because music can help with stress reduction, and so if
they're not getting to that point of overstimulation, then you
(19:40):
don't have to worry about what to do when they're overstimulated.
But if you can just do some musical breaks with them,
that can help them not become so overstimulated.
Speaker 2 (19:51):
I feel like too, you can have conversations when things
are good and say, you know, sometimes when you're having
a really hard time, I want to help you. Do
you think there's particular music, particular song that if I
played it it would help you out? Right? Like you
can establish that ahead of time too. But definitely no
teaching in those moments. Yeah, no problem solving, No anything
(20:13):
that's super intensive. It just doesn't work because our thinking
brains are offline at that point. Yeah, can we talk
about any other strategies that you have, any other simple
ways that we can maybe incorporate music into our daily routines.
Parents have a full plate, right, We're really busy, there's
(20:35):
lots going on. We don't want to add a lot
of time. How do we weave it into what we're
already doing.
Speaker 1 (20:40):
Yeah, so I would say have playlists ready to go. So,
for example, if your kid is angry and you want
to use the ISO principle to get them to come,
have a playlist ready to go where you can just
hit playing. You don't have to go searching for the songs.
You can just play the playlist and help them get
(21:01):
to where they need to be. The other thing is
you can use music for transitions. So if your kid
has especially like pathologic demand avoidance, where they go into
fight or flight just by you asking them to do something.
And we know that a lot of neurodivergent kids have
trouble with transitions, and so if your kid goes into
(21:22):
fight or flight every time they have a transition because
you're asking them to transition to do something new, you
could have a song that plays, or you can have
just an interlude that plays and they know when they
hear that song that they have until the end of
the song to transition to the next activity. So if
it's a five minute song, they have that whole five
(21:42):
minutes to transition. And it's not you telling them, Hey,
you need to go get your shoes on. Why aren't
you putting your shoes on? Go get your shoes on.
They just know that, Okay, I hear this song, I
need to stop what I'm doing, and then I need
to go get my shoes on. Yeah, and then you
can have like a visual schedule, so if they don't
know what they need to do, they can look at
(22:03):
their schedule and say, okay, I'm doing this right now.
So let's say they're putting on their clothes and then
the song starts and they need to go make their
lunch or something. I don't know. You can have the
visual schedule there so it reminds them of what they
need to be doing, so they don't have to remember.
Speaker 2 (22:20):
All of that. Yeah. Taking yourself out of the equation
a little bit. I always talk to parents and coaching
about how do we set up systems and strategies and
tools so that at some point we can take you
out of the middle. Of it, and they can succeed
with that strategy or tool all without us in the
middle of it. And you know, a great start to
(22:41):
not nagging is using a different way to queue, right, Yeah,
different signals other than a parent asking or demanding that
things be done. I love that. Yeah. My son's first
grade teacher was amazing with music for transitions. She had
particular songs for every transition throughout the day. Kids knew, oh,
(23:02):
the song came on, it's time to clean up what
I'm doing and go to my desk, or it's time
to get up and go to carpet time. She even
had music for math, just all kinds of music. It
was amazing and it really engaged every kid, right, So
instead of you know, my distractable hyper a little thing right,
(23:24):
not hearing instructions or not being able to respond right away,
the music was the cue that really helped him to
be able to make those transitions easier. And I'm sure
that was true for a lot of kids in that classroom.
So you know, we can use it not just at home,
but in most any environment.
Speaker 1 (23:42):
Yea.
Speaker 2 (23:42):
I would play particular songs in the car, especially on
the way to school because school was so stressful. So
I learned what to play and not to play, and
I was not allowed to sing along ever, So I
could not play songs that I couldn't help myself, but
to sing along because it was really upsetting to him
listen to somebody sing along or kids songs, kids singing
(24:04):
like kids Bop or whatever, like regular songs but with
a bunch of kids singing and could not stand it.
I've never quite figured it out, but that was really
interesting for a really long time. That would just send
him over the adge. So you have to know your kid, like,
not every song for kids is going to work for
your kid. You know, not every kid is going to
(24:24):
even like kids music. Some of them are going to
want more adult or nuanced music. So really getting to
know our kids, I think is one of the biggest
keys that you're sharing with us here.
Speaker 1 (24:36):
Yeah, and for kids who don't like kid music, I
would recommend listening to Stephanie Lovel's music because it doesn't
sound like kid music, but it is like it's age appropriate, right,
but it doesn't sound like kid music. And I use
her music all the time because my kids didn't like
(24:56):
kid music either. My son did not like music when
he was born, I took him to like a mommy
and me music class, and he cried through the whole thing,
and so we stopped going obviously, like after a couple
of times, you know, And he did not like listening
to music, Like every time I turned music on, he
(25:18):
would cry. And then when he was three years old,
he found the song the theme song to Cops. That
was his song. And then he found the theme song
of Oh, it's a Kenny Loggins song, the Camber. No,
it's it's on the movie with Tom Cruise in the eighties.
Speaker 2 (25:40):
Some people will know he loved, love, love.
Speaker 1 (25:43):
Those songs, and those two songs were the only songs
that we could play or he'd become overstimulated, overwhelmed and
just cry and have meltdowns. So it's just really interesting.
And now he can listen to anything. He's ten years
old and he can listen to pretty much anything. But yeah,
it was really interesting. When he was a baby, this
(26:04):
music was way too overstimulating for him.
Speaker 2 (26:06):
And so that's okay, Like, yeah.
Speaker 1 (26:09):
We talk about all these music strategies, but if your
kids are over stimulated by music, don't force it. Just
find something else that they like.
Speaker 2 (26:18):
Yeah, Yeah, for sure. So what is one small, actionable
way that parents or teachers walking away from listening to
this conversation can begin to use music as a tool
as a strategy.
Speaker 1 (26:35):
I would just build in a musical break every day
for your kid, whether that's playing an instrument, having a
dance party, making up silly songs. So writing blues songs
is really easy because it's problem problem solution. So if
your kid is hungry, you can say, oh you are hungry,
(26:57):
Oh you are hungry, let's go eat us sandwich. And
so you can just make up silly songs like that.
And that might seem overwhelming for some people. So just
start small, just you know, churn on a dance song
in the morning to get going if that's something that
your kid likes, or turn on a song at night
(27:17):
when you need to clean up the house and say, okay,
we're gonna clean while this song is playing. And just
pick one of those things. And if people need ideas,
I mean, message me, and I can give you lots
of ideas and how you can use music in your life,
but just pick one of those simple musical things that
you can do throughout the day and just start doing
that one thing every day.
Speaker 2 (27:39):
Love that tell everybody where they can find you online
so that they can learn more from you, maybe work
with you.
Speaker 1 (27:45):
Yeah, you can go to every brain isdifferent dot com
and you'll find more information about me, more information about
the services that I offer, and if you want to
follow me on Instagram or anything like that, that will
all be on there.
Speaker 2 (27:58):
And I'll link all of that up for everyone in
the show notes to make it really easy to find
at PARENTINGADHD and autism dot com Slash three one nine
for episode three nineteen. You have inspired me, Samantha, to
incorporate more music in my day and maybe start the day.
I was doing that for a while. I would sit
(28:20):
with coffee and put on some music and I always
felt better. And then I just get busy and I'm like, eh,
you know later, and I get away from it. And
so now I'm gonna make it a point. I'm going
to get back to having more music in my day,
and hopefully parents and teachers listening are also inspired to
do the same and to really help their kids grow. Right,
(28:43):
we're talking about emotional growth and regulation. So I appreciate
so much the work that you're doing, and you're sharing
some of your time and wisdom with us today. It's
really appreciated.
Speaker 1 (28:54):
Yeah, thank you.
Speaker 2 (28:55):
I will see everybody in the next episode. Take good care.
I see you. You're doing hard and meaningful work and
you don't have to do it alone. If you found
this episode helpful, share it with someone who needs it
and leave a quick review so others can find this
support too. When you're ready for next steps, the Regulated
(29:17):
Kids Project is here with the tools, coaching, and community
to help you raise a more regulated, resilient child. Get
more info at regulated kids dot com.
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I’m Jay Shetty host of On Purpose the worlds #1 Mental Health podcast and I’m so grateful you found us. I started this podcast 5 years ago to invite you into conversations and workshops that are designed to help make you happier, healthier and more healed. I believe that when you (yes you) feel seen, heard and understood you’re able to deal with relationship struggles, work challenges and life’s ups and downs with more ease and grace. I interview experts, celebrities, thought leaders and athletes so that we can grow our mindset, build better habits and uncover a side of them we’ve never seen before. New episodes every Monday and Friday. Your support means the world to me and I don’t take it for granted — click the follow button and leave a review to help us spread the love with On Purpose. I can’t wait for you to listen to your first or 500th episode!
NFL Daily with Gregg Rosenthal
Gregg Rosenthal and a rotating crew of elite NFL Media co-hosts, including Patrick Claybon, Colleen Wolfe, Steve Wyche, Nick Shook and Jourdan Rodrigue of The Athletic get you caught up daily on all the NFL news and analysis you need to be smarter and funnier than your friends.
The Joe Rogan Experience
The official podcast of comedian Joe Rogan.