November 26, 2025 • 40 mins
Every once in a while, a conversation lands in your heart in a way that stays. This encore episode is one of those for me. Luke was around twenty when we recorded it, and listening back now, I’m struck all over again by the grounded clarity he had about his neurodivergence, even in the places where life still felt messy or confusing. He spoke with such quiet certainty about seeing his differences as differences, not deficits. That mindset didn’t come from easy experiences. It came from years of feeling misunderstood, moments of being boxed in by systems not designed for him, and the slow, steady process of learning himself from the inside out.
What I love about this conversation is how real it is. There’s no glossy “we figured it out” narrative here. Instead, Luke talks through the way school felt, the times he believed he was stuck, the pressure that shut him down, and the deep importance of finding people who truly see you. And I share what I learned right alongside him: how often I co-escalated without meaning to, how long it took to realize there was nothing to fix, and how essential it is to protect the relationship above everything else.
If you’ve ever wondered what your neurodivergent child might say about their experience once they have more language for it, this episode is a gift. Luke’s perspective is honest, hopeful, and full of the kind of wisdom you only gain by living it.
Settle in for this special encore and listen through two lenses — your parent heart and your human heart.Press play and join us for this tender, funny, deeply insightful conversation.
You can find additional resources at parentingadhdandautism.com and Regulated Kids.com — because it’s not just about the struggles, it’s about progress, one step at a time.
Show notes and more resources at parentingadhdandautism.com/336
Become a supporter of this podcast: https://www.spreaker.com/podcast/beautifully-complex--6137613/support.
What I love about this conversation is how real it is. There’s no glossy “we figured it out” narrative here. Instead, Luke talks through the way school felt, the times he believed he was stuck, the pressure that shut him down, and the deep importance of finding people who truly see you. And I share what I learned right alongside him: how often I co-escalated without meaning to, how long it took to realize there was nothing to fix, and how essential it is to protect the relationship above everything else.
If you’ve ever wondered what your neurodivergent child might say about their experience once they have more language for it, this episode is a gift. Luke’s perspective is honest, hopeful, and full of the kind of wisdom you only gain by living it.
Settle in for this special encore and listen through two lenses — your parent heart and your human heart.Press play and join us for this tender, funny, deeply insightful conversation.
You can find additional resources at parentingadhdandautism.com and Regulated Kids.com — because it’s not just about the struggles, it’s about progress, one step at a time.
Show notes and more resources at parentingadhdandautism.com/336
Become a supporter of this podcast: https://www.spreaker.com/podcast/beautifully-complex--6137613/support.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:02):
Hey there, friends, it's Penny. I wanted to bring back
one of my all time favorite episodes for you this week.
It is a conversation with my nerdivergent kiddo from way
back in episode two hundred. You guys always love hearing
from him, and I honestly do too. I learned so
much about his experience every time I am able to
(00:24):
interview him. He was about twenty when we recorded this,
and what has really struck me both then and still
now is how clearly he was able to communicate that
he sees his neurodivergence as a difference and not a deficit.
And that certainly is something that I think ebbs and
(00:45):
flows for him, and he was using his thinking brain
to really explain that he sees it as a difference.
But I know that sometimes it doesn't still feel that
way to him. But he was able in this episode
to communicate a grounded sense of self acceptance and perseverance
that I think so many adults spend a lifetime trying
(01:09):
to build. So as we head into this encore, I
invite you to listen through two lenses as a parent
and just as a human being. There's so much wisdom
in his words, and so much hope in seeing how
far our kids can come when we start meeting them
where they are and we start seeing them for who
(01:32):
they are. All right, let's get into it. Welcome to
Beautifully Complex, where we unpack what it really means to
parent neurodivergent kids with dignity and clarity. I'm Penny Williams,
and I know firsthand how tough and transformative this journey
can be. Let's dive in and discover how to raise regulated, resilient,
(01:55):
beautifully complex kids together. Oh and if you want more
support in our free community at hub dot beautifully Complex
dot life. Hello, Hello, our neurodiverse community. I am thrilled
to be recording our two hundredth episode right now of
(02:20):
the Beautifully Complex Podcast. I cannot believe that I have
been podcasting for almost six years and we have amassed
two hundred episodes, and I have a really special guest
for you on this episode. Do you want to say? Hello?
Speaker 2 (02:39):
Hi?
Speaker 1 (02:40):
Who are you?
Speaker 2 (02:41):
I'm Luke I am her Son.
Speaker 1 (02:44):
It's Luke. Guys, he's back after a year or two.
You guys heard him in a previous episode. I'll link
it up in the show notes and everyone was so
excited to hear from you, Luke, and so I know
that they're really going to be so happy to hear
your insights and to benefit from them again in this episode,
(03:07):
So we're going to talk about the big lessons that
we have learned in the fourteen years since Luke got
his first diagnosis that made him neurodivergent. Well, he was
born neurodivergent, right, but the first diagnosis where we knew
(03:29):
that he was neurodivergent, that ADHD diagnosis. And it's been
a long journey, right Benny, Right, Yeah, yeah, long journey,
but you made it and you keep moving forward, right, Yeah,
So you want to tell people, like what you've been
up to, what's happened? You graduated from high school? Right?
Speaker 2 (03:49):
I did?
Speaker 1 (03:50):
Yes? And what have you been doing.
Speaker 2 (03:54):
A lot of stuff with music still? Yeah?
Speaker 1 (03:57):
So creating your own digital music? Right, you're still doing
music lessons? You have had a job, right you worked
for a while in a print.
Speaker 2 (04:06):
Shop and yeah nine months.
Speaker 1 (04:08):
You're thinking about some different opportunities of what to explore next,
right yeah yeah, and so just finding your way in
your own time. Does it feel good to be able
to do that?
Speaker 2 (04:20):
Yeah? Yeah, it's great to be able to have a
kind of normal, kind of role in my life for
at least a little bit.
Speaker 1 (04:30):
Yeah. What do you mean by that, a normal role
in your life?
Speaker 2 (04:33):
Well, it's kind of like normal progression.
Speaker 1 (04:36):
Yeah, you know, did you feel stuck when you were
in school?
Speaker 2 (04:40):
Kind of? Yeah, it was a very chocked feeling when
you have a lot of trouble expressing your struggles in
the complications that you have.
Speaker 1 (04:52):
Yeah, so it can be really challenging. I know, and
it took me a while to really understand, and I
think it took you some growth and maturity to be
able to understand yourself even right.
Speaker 2 (05:05):
I can tell you this once that I don't fully
understand myself still, but.
Speaker 1 (05:11):
I'm not sure any of us do totally.
Speaker 2 (05:14):
I have substantially improved my understanding of myself.
Speaker 1 (05:17):
Yeah, for sure, and I've seen that so much in
you too. So let's start with your five big lessons learned,
because I'm hoping that the parents who are listening might
have their kids join them to listen to You're ahaz
from your experience so far. So we'll start with you
(05:40):
and case kids want to jump in and listen. What
was your number one or the first thing that you
want to talk about on your big list of things
that you've learned.
Speaker 2 (05:51):
Firstly, there is nothing wrong with you. I feel like
in the scape of neurodiversity, a lot of it is
portrayed as something being wrong with you, or, as a
documentarian on YouTube put it, a lot of people have
this ideology that your brain has just gone out. But
(06:13):
that's not true at all. It's more of just this
kind of divergence, which is where the term comes from.
But it's just a different way that your brain functions.
It's not the wrong way, it's a different way.
Speaker 1 (06:29):
Yeah, And you got a lot of messages throughout growing
up that at least fell to you like people were
saying it was the wrong way right.
Speaker 2 (06:37):
Right. The school system has this really weird fascination with
making the narrative virgin kids feel like they're not good enough.
Speaker 1 (06:47):
I think that system of compliance and conformity just doesn't
allow for differences, right.
Speaker 2 (06:54):
Well, no, because they have their curriculum, and if the
curriculum steers up away from that and it's deemed improper education.
Speaker 1 (07:04):
So your number one was there's nothing wrong with you, right, Yeah,
what's your number two?
Speaker 2 (07:10):
It's a speed bump not a roadblock. I love that
the whole idea that you're unable to progress forward is wrong.
It's a mindset that I've been in before where it's
very very hard to progress forward because you either like
(07:32):
don't see the reason too or are constantly opposed when
trying to move forward. But there's always going to be away.
And I say roadblock instead of dead end, because in
most circumstances of where we feel trapped, it's not I
(07:53):
don't know where I'm going, it's I know where I'm
supposed to go, I just can't get there. Can you
give us an example of what part? An example of
a time where you felt like you were stock and
you knew where you wanted to go, but you were
(08:14):
having a hard time getting there, Like, is there a
specific example you can share? Well, there was a time
in school where I had to write a paper. M
I don't really remember the specifics of the paper because
that was like sixth grade, but I remember that I
(08:34):
knew what I wanted to do, my general statement of
the paper, but I couldn't get it to go on
the actual page. I couldn't like write down when I wanted,
So I had this feeling of seeing where I needed
to go, but being unable to get there because there
was something blocking it. But in reality, it was just
(08:59):
a slope point because eventually I got myself to the
point of where I could put what I wanted to
put down on the paper and I got it done.
Speaker 1 (09:10):
And how'd you do that? Did you get help from
other people or what helped you?
Speaker 2 (09:15):
Trying to open my mind to the other possibilities of
what I could do was one thing of as I
like to call it, deep thinking and trying to find
alternative solutions to your problem. But asking for help is
always an option, and if people tell you otherwise, they're wrong.
Speaker 1 (09:40):
Yeah, so you had to sort of step back and say, Okay,
there's a problem here I need to solve. I have
to get creative on how I can get around this
roadblock so that I can get to this finish line
that I can already see right. Yes, nice and writing
was a big roadblock for you a long time, wasn't it. Yeah,
(10:01):
it's really difficult. Yeah, and I think there's a lot
of kids out there who have that same difficulty, and
I don't think that your educators recognized it very much.
It's something that when it comes naturally to you. It's
hard to imagine that other people struggle with it. Like
(10:22):
I remember when you guys were little, and organizing is
really natural to me, like super super, very specifically organized
down to the in detail is the way my brain works.
And it was really hard for me to realize that
it wasn't that you didn't care, it was that you
(10:44):
didn't see it the same way. Right. I had to
realize that you didn't see things the same way I
see things, and that your instincts weren't the same as
mine instincts, which can be really hard for adults to see.
And so if you're a good writer, even somebody who
hasn't struggled with writing, for instance, it can be challenging
(11:08):
to imagine that somebody could know where they want to
go and not be able to get it on the paper.
And you know, that's the beauty of this podcast and
others and the work that a lot of other neurodiversion
adults like you are doing and trying to educate people
and let them know that these are the things that
(11:29):
we have a hard time with right right, and that
you can help us if you understand, if you're open
to understanding that there are different ways of moving through
the world. So what's your number three on your list
of big lessons?
Speaker 2 (11:45):
You're capable of learning and growing no matter.
Speaker 1 (11:48):
What, everybody, right, right.
Speaker 2 (11:52):
Yeah, this isn't just strictly for the neurodivergent, but it
does help neurodivergent people a lot. And you express to
them that they are capable of doing the thing that
feels really difficult to them, which is to comprehend and
capture information as well as other people can.
Speaker 1 (12:15):
Yeah, and so the roadblock there again, right, is that
the system is very rigid, and if you don't learn
in the ways that the system is designed, then it
feels like you're not capable, doesn't it, right, Yes, And
so what do we do about that? How do we
help kids with that?
Speaker 2 (12:35):
If a kid needs something explained, you don't question why
they need it explained or deny them the explanation. You
explain it to them. Again. There were a lot of times,
especially with math stuff because I hate math, there were
(12:56):
several times when I would have to have the same
thing explained to me over and over again. I think
in particular it was division because I didn't really understand
what the whole thing of what it meant to divide
was so I had to have my teacher explain it
to me multiple times, and every time that it was
(13:17):
explained to me, I took something away from it, but
I didn't take the whole thing away from that.
Speaker 1 (13:24):
Does a building process, Yes, And I want to point
out here you are wicked smart. It has nothing to
do with smarts, right right.
Speaker 2 (13:34):
I would like to believe it. As you know, a normal,
normal brain is a disgusting term. But like you know,
non neurodivergent people, their information is more like a block
or like a square. It's just a solid thing, m h.
And when they learn it, it's there. But with neurodivirgin people,
(13:56):
it's like building blocks. Every time it's explained to you,
you get a new part of the puzzle, and yet
sometimes you get the whole puzzle and sometimes you don't.
Speaker 1 (14:06):
Yeah, that's such a good way to explain it, bed
I like that. It makes it really easy for us
to understand from the outside. So we're on number four, right,
of your lessons learned? What's number four?
Speaker 2 (14:20):
Yes, find your people? The rest don't matter.
Speaker 1 (14:24):
How did you find your people.
Speaker 2 (14:26):
My circumstance, I guess, but I did look for them
kind of.
Speaker 1 (14:31):
Yeah, I think it was when you joined robotics club
in middle school.
Speaker 2 (14:35):
Possibly i'd argue that point, but I feel like it
was before that. But Robotics Cup did certainly affirm those
friendships for me because it was me realizing that, hey,
these people are a lot like me, aren't they.
Speaker 1 (14:55):
Yeah, so looking for people with similar interest to you
or even like similar challenges, I think you can bond
over that as well.
Speaker 2 (15:06):
Yeah, Like I think about eighty percent of my friends
there's some form of neurodivergent mm hmmm.
Speaker 1 (15:13):
Yeah, And I think a lot of times neurodivergent people
have similar interest too. Like you guys were really interested
in gaming, you were really interested in technology and stuff
like that. That's why you guys were in robotics together
in the first place, because you had similar interests. But
(15:33):
it can feel for parents, especially like your kids are
never going to find good friends, They're never going to
have a really solid connection. And what would you say to.
Speaker 2 (15:47):
That that it's not true and that there is someone
for everyone out there, regardless of it's friendship or relationship.
Everyone has someone that they can get along with in
the world, and all you have to do is just
keep looking.
Speaker 1 (16:05):
Yeah, being open to meeting new people and stuff like that,
which can be really hard too for a lot of people.
But I think what we tried to do to help
you was just to keep encouraging you to participate in
things that you were interested in, knowing that there would
be people your age with similar interests there as well,
(16:28):
and that that would be a helpful maybe environment for
you to meet your tribe, to find your people. What
is your number five?
Speaker 2 (16:37):
But you're never fully stuck?
Speaker 1 (16:41):
I think everybody needs a big exhale in that one.
You're never fully stuck? Does it feel often like you're
fully stuck?
Speaker 2 (16:49):
Yes?
Speaker 1 (16:50):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (16:51):
I think there are times where I've bricked myself in
a corner because I felt so stuck that I couldn't
do anything. But eventually there was a way to solve
that problem. So even if you feel stuck, there's always
some way to get yourself out of it.
Speaker 1 (17:10):
Can you give some examples? I know that's going to
be different for everybody, but how did you work yourself
out of that corner when you felt like you were
totally stuck for good?
Speaker 2 (17:24):
Well? I would sit there in that corner and it
would really feel like I was just not going to
be able to get out of it. But eventually you
start to see if you really try, you start to
see the ways that it can get better, and you
usually act on those and it'll help you get unstuck.
Speaker 1 (17:47):
And I from the parent side, would add to take
the pressure off. And I know you're a big proponent
of stop pressuring your kids, stop pressuring your students. Yeah,
so I know you would agree with that. But also
what strikes me is that you needed time to be
able to think through it. And so what I know
(18:09):
about the nervous system and the brain is that when
you were in that corner and you were getting the
feeling of being bricked in and completely and hopelessly stuck,
it was because your emotional and survival brains were taking
over and your thinking brain was becoming inaccessible, and so
you couldn't really see a way out because you couldn't rationalize,
(18:30):
you couldn't problem solve. But you sat in that until
your thinking brain was able to come back online because
your nervous system had calmed down and your emotional brain
had calmed down, and then you were able to think
more clearly and to really problem solve and be able
to see that yes, I can get unstuck. This isn't hopeless.
(18:51):
Does that feel true to you?
Speaker 2 (18:54):
Yes?
Speaker 1 (18:54):
Yeah, it's amazing when we learn about what our bodies
and our brains are doing during those times, how much
it describes exactly what we need to know to do
the most helpful thing for our kids. So what I
needed to know in those instances to help you was
to give you time, right, which I know you will
(19:17):
nod your head vehemently in agreement. I struggled with for
a long time giving you time and space, right, Yes,
I see you nodding.
Speaker 2 (19:26):
Yes.
Speaker 1 (19:26):
Yes, it was very hard because why do you know
why it was so hard for me to give you
space and time? No, because I wanted to help you
so bad, And that's where so many parents get stuck
in that same trap that I did. I wanted to
help you so bad right away, and what I was
inadvertently doing was actually making it harder for you, right
(19:50):
because I was putting all that pressure on. I was
piling onto the overwhelm, and I didn't see that for
a long time until you we were able to let
me know what was going on and what I was
actually doing. What that felt like to you on the
receiving side of it. And I've been working really hard
(20:12):
to not pressure you to talk about things right away
and to give you time and space. How have I
been doing better?
Speaker 3 (20:21):
Better?
Speaker 1 (20:22):
Still room for improvement? Yeah, I'm sure, yeah, because mom
just wants to help. Man, it's hard. It's hard when
you're a parent to see your kid struggle and to say, Okay, well,
you know, I've got to give him time. I have
to give him longer to feel really crappy, but it
(20:42):
really is true for all of us, and I have
to remind myself of that. We all have a similar
nervous system and a similar brain, you know, in the
ways that it sometimes gets stuck and what helps, and
so we have to remember that just like we sometimes
just need time and quiet and space, so do you,
So do our kids, so to our students. So let's
(21:21):
talk about my list of my parent lessons, because I
think you're going to have a lot of input for
what I have on my list too, And I'm really
curious about that as well, what you're going to say
to that. And I think we've touched on some of
it already, but I would say that I would start
with there's nothing to fix and that kind of dovetails
(21:44):
with one of your lessons, and I got really stuck
and fix it mode when you were in first grade
and second grade and third grade and you were really
having a hard time, and I was getting so much
pressure from the school that you had to behave a
certain way, you had to learn certain things, and I
(22:06):
was just trying to help you to meet those expectations,
not understanding that that was a completely wrong way to
go about it. That it wasn't about fixing the situation
making you capable of fitting into their box. It was
about helping everyone see that you learned differently and helping
(22:29):
you to do it in your way and your time.
And it took me a really long time to learn that,
and I wasted a lot of time trying to fix it.
So now when I look back, that's one of my
biggest lessons for parents and for educators. There's nothing to fix.
It's not a matter of fixing something. It's not a
(22:51):
matter of making kids fit into this box that you've
dreamed up. It's about opening that box, flattening all the
sides of that box, and being free to be creative
and to be different, to learn differently, and to show
what you've learned differently, to participate in a birthday party differently.
(23:11):
Maybe you know it's okay for you to go about
the world differently. Do you agree?
Speaker 2 (23:17):
Yes?
Speaker 1 (23:18):
Yeah, And we have a long way to go, don't we,
with especially with our education system, to say it's okay
to do it differently. But there's a really big acceptance
for parents, and it's a process that we have to
go through to realize that we're not trying to change
the diagnoses. We're not trying to change the child that
we have. We have a fantastic, wonderful child with thoughts
(23:41):
of greatness within them. It's a matter of helping them
figure out what that journey looks like for them, because
it can be different than that really stereotypical path that
we want to push every kid to. My number two,
(24:02):
you can co escalate or you can co regulate. Can
you remember times when I've co escalated you?
Speaker 2 (24:09):
Yes?
Speaker 1 (24:10):
Yeah, probably more than you can count. Yes, Because it
took me a long time to learn this right that
I had to really stay calm, that I had to
take a step back and let you find your way
sometimes it didn't have to be my way again, And
then you know what we want to do instead of
co escalating is to coregulate. And I will say about
(24:32):
co escalating, it's not our intention. It's never our intention
to make things worse, to get you more stuck, or
to get you more just regulated. It is our instinct
to respond in kind. So if you're yelling, it's my
instinct in my body to yell back for protection. And
we have to as parents and educators and other adults
(24:53):
in your lives, we have to figure out how to
offer you calm tomorrow, how to stay calm for our
so that we can stay in that thinking brain and
we can stay regulated so that we can actually be
helpful to you. Because just like it's hard for you
to do things when you're just regulated, it's hard for
appearents and educators to do things when they're just regulated too.
(25:16):
So we have to work really hard at not escalating
the situation but offering calm to try to help our
kids too become regulated again and be back online with
all of those thinking brain, emotional brain, survival brain working
in harmony. And so that's my number two. Can you
think of like one example where I was super co
(25:39):
escalating that you can share no, no, nothing, like jumps
out at you like, oh this time, mom really was
not just off it. No, I'll take that as a win.
Maybe then, okay, you haven't been scarred by anything that
I've No. Am I better at co regulating, offering you
(26:01):
coregulation and calm now than I used to be. Yes, yeah,
you sound like maybe you don't believe that, but you
want you don't have to say what you think I
want to hear.
Speaker 2 (26:13):
There are times, but it's it's better.
Speaker 1 (26:17):
Yeah. I mean, I'm human, right, dude, I understand that
I'm human. I'm going to make mistakes. Parents make mistakes
just like kids.
Speaker 2 (26:25):
I'm not denying that.
Speaker 1 (26:27):
No, I know. I'm just pointing it out for everybody listening.
We're human beings as parents or teachers or whatever, and
we're going to make mistakes. We're gonna get caught up,
but we certainly are trying right, and when we know better,
we do better. So I know better and I'm working
on doing better. So my number three, which we've already
talked about, my number three biggest lesson was that pressure
(26:50):
makes things less doable for everyone, I think, but especially
for neurodivergent individuals. If I put pressure on you then
you kind of shut down, Right, Do you want to
talk a little bit about that? Because I know this
is a big topic for you. It's a big sticking
point for you. And it's sort of the societal tool
(27:13):
that we're taught to use that we put pressure on
kids to perform, to do what we've asked. If you
don't do this, this thing you don't like is going
to happen, right, the whole crime and punishment. And I
learned from you in pretty recent years when you were
finally able to sort of pinpoint it and to tell
(27:36):
me about it, that the more pressure people put on you,
the less capable you are of meeting whatever expectation they're
pressuring you on. Right, What does that feel like for
you when somebody is really pressuring you?
Speaker 2 (27:52):
Not good?
Speaker 1 (27:53):
Yeah, obviously? Can you describe though, Like, are there certain
feelings in your body or certain thoughts that you have
when you're getting really pressured.
Speaker 2 (28:03):
I don't want to do it. That's a pretty common
thought on I'm being pressured because it feels less of
doing it of my own volition and more of this
person is forcing me to do it. So I kind
of have to do it now, don't I? You don't
like to be told what to do. Right, I'm less
likely to procrastinate if I set up the thing for
(28:25):
myself than if I'm told to do it.
Speaker 1 (28:27):
M that's so good. Say that again.
Speaker 3 (28:30):
Uh no, No, you're less likely to procrastinate if you
set it up for yourself.
Speaker 2 (28:42):
Set it up for yourself then if you're told to
do it by someone else, because it feels more like
your goal than someone else's.
Speaker 1 (28:51):
And that interchange was an exact example.
Speaker 2 (28:53):
You're welcome, right.
Speaker 1 (28:55):
You just felt pressured by me to do it because
I I just wanted you to reiterate that for people listening,
because it's so so good. We need to know that
in order to do right by you.
Speaker 2 (29:09):
I was with you.
Speaker 1 (29:10):
I know, I was goofing my favorite thing about you.
You're so funny and kind and I love it. I
always laugh with you. It's amazing part of your greatness.
So my number four, I'm on. My number four behavior
is often a physiological instinctual response. This is what I
(29:34):
learned from learning more about neurobiology and brain science, is
that our nervous systems are sending us messages constantly, and
very often that message is of danger, and sometimes there
is danger, and sometimes it's a false alarm. But so
(29:55):
often behavior is an instinct well automatic response to something
that is hard. Right, if it's a challenging or unwanted behavior,
it came from something that was hard and it was
an automatic response. So your child or your student didn't
sit down and go while I'm gonna scream at mom
(30:17):
and tell her I hate her and then I'm gonna
get my way. That doesn't happen. It just automatically. Your
body is trying to protect itself. Our kids' bodies are
trying to protect themselves, and that's what we're on the
receiving end of. And it can feel really intentional, it
can feel very personal, but so often it's not. That
was a big, big, big, big big parenting aha for me,
(30:41):
a big mindset shift for me. That was really helpful
because then I could more often see that Luke wasn't
giving me a hard time, he was having a hard time.
I could tell when he was having a hard time,
and then that made me go, Okay, how do I
help him? Versus why is he doing this to me?
Why is he acting this way? Do you have any
(31:02):
input for that one? But no, nope, nothing. Does it
feel true. Yeah, yeah, Sometimes you aren't really in control
of your responses to things. Yeah yeah. And one big
clue for me when you were growing up on that
was that something would happen, it'd be really hard, it'd
(31:25):
be really intense, and then later you would come and
you would say, I'm so sorry, Mom, I didn't mean
for that to happen, or you know, I don't mean
what I said. And then I knew that you weren't
really in control because you weren't okay with what happened either.
And I think that parents really have to key into that.
(31:45):
That's a big signal that that was more of an automatic,
instinctual response.
Speaker 2 (31:50):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (31:52):
So my number five, My number five, The relationship always
comes first. You're reallylationship as the adult, the parent, the educator,
or the soccer coach, whoever you are as an adult
in the life of a neurodivergent kid, the relationship between
you and the connection has to be the top priority.
(32:16):
So some days homework isn't a thing because the relationship
matters more. Some days getting that math work sheet done
in the classroom isn't the top priority. The top priority
is the connection and the relationship with that student. What
happens when you have a good relationship with the adults
(32:37):
in your life, Buddy, what happens when you feel a
good connection with your parents, your teachers, your grandparents, you know, whoever.
Speaker 2 (32:47):
You're a coach, it feels a lot easier to trust
them with knowing about your struggles when they seem to
understand them, so you'll go to them more frequently when
you have problems with something.
Speaker 1 (33:04):
Yeah, And does it make you feel more understood?
Speaker 2 (33:09):
Yes?
Speaker 1 (33:10):
And does that make things feel more doable?
Speaker 2 (33:13):
Yes?
Speaker 1 (33:14):
Yeah. I remember so many times we battled about homework
because school was really hard for you, and it was
pretty unfair. I think for any kid it's unfair for
them to have to do homework. Truly, you have already
been doing seven hours of it during the day. You
need a life outside of school. But that's a whole
(33:34):
other conversation.
Speaker 2 (33:36):
Homework is bad. I'd love to have that conversation.
Speaker 1 (33:40):
Yeah, you were so spent by the time you got home. Right,
How hard were you working at school to keep it together,
to try to fit and do what you were asked
to do? Hard, way harder than people realized.
Speaker 2 (33:54):
Right.
Speaker 1 (33:55):
Yeah, And so did you have any energy left or
any will to do more hard like no math work
or writing or reading.
Speaker 2 (34:06):
You expel all of your energy at school and all
of your willingness to do anything that you like don't
want to at school. So the fact that they expect
you to come home and do more school stuff is abysmal.
Because homework is not an optional thing. You have to
(34:29):
do it. So they're literally forcing you to go home
and do more school in an environment you know you
could be doing not school.
Speaker 1 (34:40):
Yeah. Yeah, And you just need a break, don't you.
Speaker 2 (34:44):
Yes. I feel like that's not even for neurodivergent children.
Speaker 1 (34:48):
That's just everyone.
Speaker 2 (34:50):
Oh, homework is terrible and the prospect of homework is insulting.
Speaker 1 (34:57):
I agree, but I agree for all kids. I don't
want to get way into this in this conversation. We'll
definitely do another episode and we'll get into it, oh
for sure, But for now, this just illustrates so much
why the relationship is so important, because we are asking
(35:17):
our kids to do really hard things, and we often
don't recognize that these things are harder for our kids
than maybe they were for us as kids, maybe they
are for their peers in the classroom, and so we
have to see them. We have to hear them, we
have to meet them where they are, and all of
(35:39):
that is part of making sure that the relationship comes first.
Don't you feel Luke the most capable when people really
get it around you and when they're really open to
you doing things in your own way and your own time.
Speaker 2 (36:00):
Yes.
Speaker 1 (36:01):
Yes, such short answers from you today are usually such
a talker. So let's have some final thoughts. What is
one final thought for any kids or young adults who
are neurodivergent who are listening?
Speaker 2 (36:18):
Don't do drugs?
Speaker 1 (36:19):
Look ever it?
Speaker 2 (36:21):
Yeah? Okay. Regardless of what your aspirations are, you can
achieve them, unless this aspirations are to achieve un vehicular flight.
But whatever your dreams are, if you work hard enough
to get it and believe in yourself to get it,
you can get it regardless of your nerdivergency. Nice and
(36:48):
don't do drugs?
Speaker 1 (36:49):
Yes, I agree with that. What is your final message
for parents or teachers, educators adults in your life?
Speaker 2 (36:59):
Do you got it?
Speaker 1 (37:03):
Okay? What is your final helpful thought for the adults?
Speaker 2 (37:11):
Apply what you learned here to your teaching or parenting.
Speaker 1 (37:17):
That's why we're doing this, is it not?
Speaker 2 (37:20):
Yes, observation, Mom, thank you.
Speaker 1 (37:25):
So I will just say for Luke. Luke's final overarching
message for the adults is to quit putting pressure on us,
because I know that's what you would probably say, because
you've said it a thousand times. Okay, Oh, I love you.
And so my final thoughts as I reflect on this
(37:49):
journey of being your mom is one how much I've
learned from you, and how much of a better person
I am and a better parent I am because of you,
and how truly grateful I am. Things have been hard,
(38:10):
no doubt, but you are an amazing human being, and
I'm so very grateful that you gave me the opportunity
to be more empathetic, more compassionate, more understanding, and more
open to a lot of differences and a lot of
(38:35):
different people and different perspectives. And I just feel like
my life is richer because you've helped me learn these things.
And my life is richer because this has afforded me
the opportunity to help other people. And it's so amazing
(38:56):
to be able to spend my days helping other people,
Helping kids like you, helping parents like me, helping the teachers,
and the principles and the school counselors to really letting people,
letting kids be exactly who they are and celebrating it.
(39:17):
And I'm just so in awe in all of you,
and in awe of everyone and what we get to
do and the impact that we get to make. I'm
just so grateful. And that is two hundred episodes. I
can't believe it. To one hundred conversations that I have
(39:39):
had and put out there for the world. And we're
going to keep going, right and Luke, you're going to
be on more episodes in the future. I'm so glad.
I'm so glad. I know our listeners are glad to
all right. Well, number two hundred is in the books,
it's out there, and I'm so happy to keep having
(40:00):
these conversations and to keep trying to help help families
like ours and help kiddos like you. So I will
see everyone on the next episode. Take good care. I
see you. You're doing hard and meaningful work and you
don't have to do it alone. If you found this
episode helpful, share it with someone who needs it and
(40:22):
leave a quick review so others can find this support too.
When you're ready for next steps. The Regulated Kid's Project
is here with the tools, coaching, and community to help
you raise a more regulated, resilient child. Get more info
at regulated kids dot com.
Hey there, friends, it's Penny. I wanted to bring back
one of my all time favorite episodes for you this week.
It is a conversation with my nerdivergent kiddo from way
back in episode two hundred. You guys always love hearing
from him, and I honestly do too. I learned so
much about his experience every time I am able to
(00:24):
interview him. He was about twenty when we recorded this,
and what has really struck me both then and still
now is how clearly he was able to communicate that
he sees his neurodivergence as a difference and not a deficit.
And that certainly is something that I think ebbs and
(00:45):
flows for him, and he was using his thinking brain
to really explain that he sees it as a difference.
But I know that sometimes it doesn't still feel that
way to him. But he was able in this episode
to communicate a grounded sense of self acceptance and perseverance
that I think so many adults spend a lifetime trying
(01:09):
to build. So as we head into this encore, I
invite you to listen through two lenses as a parent
and just as a human being. There's so much wisdom
in his words, and so much hope in seeing how
far our kids can come when we start meeting them
where they are and we start seeing them for who
(01:32):
they are. All right, let's get into it. Welcome to
Beautifully Complex, where we unpack what it really means to
parent neurodivergent kids with dignity and clarity. I'm Penny Williams,
and I know firsthand how tough and transformative this journey
can be. Let's dive in and discover how to raise regulated, resilient,
(01:55):
beautifully complex kids together. Oh and if you want more
support in our free community at hub dot beautifully Complex
dot life. Hello, Hello, our neurodiverse community. I am thrilled
to be recording our two hundredth episode right now of
(02:20):
the Beautifully Complex Podcast. I cannot believe that I have
been podcasting for almost six years and we have amassed
two hundred episodes, and I have a really special guest
for you on this episode. Do you want to say? Hello?
Speaker 2 (02:39):
Hi?
Speaker 1 (02:40):
Who are you?
Speaker 2 (02:41):
I'm Luke I am her Son.
Speaker 1 (02:44):
It's Luke. Guys, he's back after a year or two.
You guys heard him in a previous episode. I'll link
it up in the show notes and everyone was so
excited to hear from you, Luke, and so I know
that they're really going to be so happy to hear
your insights and to benefit from them again in this episode,
(03:07):
So we're going to talk about the big lessons that
we have learned in the fourteen years since Luke got
his first diagnosis that made him neurodivergent. Well, he was
born neurodivergent, right, but the first diagnosis where we knew
(03:29):
that he was neurodivergent, that ADHD diagnosis. And it's been
a long journey, right Benny, Right, Yeah, yeah, long journey,
but you made it and you keep moving forward, right, Yeah,
So you want to tell people, like what you've been
up to, what's happened? You graduated from high school? Right?
Speaker 2 (03:49):
I did?
Speaker 1 (03:50):
Yes? And what have you been doing.
Speaker 2 (03:54):
A lot of stuff with music still? Yeah?
Speaker 1 (03:57):
So creating your own digital music? Right, you're still doing
music lessons? You have had a job, right you worked
for a while in a print.
Speaker 2 (04:06):
Shop and yeah nine months.
Speaker 1 (04:08):
You're thinking about some different opportunities of what to explore next,
right yeah yeah, and so just finding your way in
your own time. Does it feel good to be able
to do that?
Speaker 2 (04:20):
Yeah? Yeah, it's great to be able to have a
kind of normal, kind of role in my life for
at least a little bit.
Speaker 1 (04:30):
Yeah. What do you mean by that, a normal role
in your life?
Speaker 2 (04:33):
Well, it's kind of like normal progression.
Speaker 1 (04:36):
Yeah, you know, did you feel stuck when you were
in school?
Speaker 2 (04:40):
Kind of? Yeah, it was a very chocked feeling when
you have a lot of trouble expressing your struggles in
the complications that you have.
Speaker 1 (04:52):
Yeah, so it can be really challenging. I know, and
it took me a while to really understand, and I
think it took you some growth and maturity to be
able to understand yourself even right.
Speaker 2 (05:05):
I can tell you this once that I don't fully
understand myself still, but.
Speaker 1 (05:11):
I'm not sure any of us do totally.
Speaker 2 (05:14):
I have substantially improved my understanding of myself.
Speaker 1 (05:17):
Yeah, for sure, and I've seen that so much in
you too. So let's start with your five big lessons learned,
because I'm hoping that the parents who are listening might
have their kids join them to listen to You're ahaz
from your experience so far. So we'll start with you
(05:40):
and case kids want to jump in and listen. What
was your number one or the first thing that you
want to talk about on your big list of things
that you've learned.
Speaker 2 (05:51):
Firstly, there is nothing wrong with you. I feel like
in the scape of neurodiversity, a lot of it is
portrayed as something being wrong with you, or, as a
documentarian on YouTube put it, a lot of people have
this ideology that your brain has just gone out. But
(06:13):
that's not true at all. It's more of just this
kind of divergence, which is where the term comes from.
But it's just a different way that your brain functions.
It's not the wrong way, it's a different way.
Speaker 1 (06:29):
Yeah, And you got a lot of messages throughout growing
up that at least fell to you like people were
saying it was the wrong way right.
Speaker 2 (06:37):
Right. The school system has this really weird fascination with
making the narrative virgin kids feel like they're not good enough.
Speaker 1 (06:47):
I think that system of compliance and conformity just doesn't
allow for differences, right.
Speaker 2 (06:54):
Well, no, because they have their curriculum, and if the
curriculum steers up away from that and it's deemed improper education.
Speaker 1 (07:04):
So your number one was there's nothing wrong with you, right, Yeah,
what's your number two?
Speaker 2 (07:10):
It's a speed bump not a roadblock. I love that
the whole idea that you're unable to progress forward is wrong.
It's a mindset that I've been in before where it's
very very hard to progress forward because you either like
(07:32):
don't see the reason too or are constantly opposed when
trying to move forward. But there's always going to be away.
And I say roadblock instead of dead end, because in
most circumstances of where we feel trapped, it's not I
(07:53):
don't know where I'm going, it's I know where I'm
supposed to go, I just can't get there. Can you
give us an example of what part? An example of
a time where you felt like you were stock and
you knew where you wanted to go, but you were
(08:14):
having a hard time getting there, Like, is there a
specific example you can share? Well, there was a time
in school where I had to write a paper. M
I don't really remember the specifics of the paper because
that was like sixth grade, but I remember that I
(08:34):
knew what I wanted to do, my general statement of
the paper, but I couldn't get it to go on
the actual page. I couldn't like write down when I wanted,
So I had this feeling of seeing where I needed
to go, but being unable to get there because there
was something blocking it. But in reality, it was just
(08:59):
a slope point because eventually I got myself to the
point of where I could put what I wanted to
put down on the paper and I got it done.
Speaker 1 (09:10):
And how'd you do that? Did you get help from
other people or what helped you?
Speaker 2 (09:15):
Trying to open my mind to the other possibilities of
what I could do was one thing of as I
like to call it, deep thinking and trying to find
alternative solutions to your problem. But asking for help is
always an option, and if people tell you otherwise, they're wrong.
Speaker 1 (09:40):
Yeah, so you had to sort of step back and say, Okay,
there's a problem here I need to solve. I have
to get creative on how I can get around this
roadblock so that I can get to this finish line
that I can already see right. Yes, nice and writing
was a big roadblock for you a long time, wasn't it. Yeah,
(10:01):
it's really difficult. Yeah, and I think there's a lot
of kids out there who have that same difficulty, and
I don't think that your educators recognized it very much.
It's something that when it comes naturally to you. It's
hard to imagine that other people struggle with it. Like
(10:22):
I remember when you guys were little, and organizing is
really natural to me, like super super, very specifically organized
down to the in detail is the way my brain works.
And it was really hard for me to realize that
it wasn't that you didn't care, it was that you
(10:44):
didn't see it the same way. Right. I had to
realize that you didn't see things the same way I
see things, and that your instincts weren't the same as
mine instincts, which can be really hard for adults to see.
And so if you're a good writer, even somebody who
hasn't struggled with writing, for instance, it can be challenging
(11:08):
to imagine that somebody could know where they want to
go and not be able to get it on the paper.
And you know, that's the beauty of this podcast and
others and the work that a lot of other neurodiversion
adults like you are doing and trying to educate people
and let them know that these are the things that
(11:29):
we have a hard time with right right, and that
you can help us if you understand, if you're open
to understanding that there are different ways of moving through
the world. So what's your number three on your list
of big lessons?
Speaker 2 (11:45):
You're capable of learning and growing no matter.
Speaker 1 (11:48):
What, everybody, right, right.
Speaker 2 (11:52):
Yeah, this isn't just strictly for the neurodivergent, but it
does help neurodivergent people a lot. And you express to
them that they are capable of doing the thing that
feels really difficult to them, which is to comprehend and
capture information as well as other people can.
Speaker 1 (12:15):
Yeah, and so the roadblock there again, right, is that
the system is very rigid, and if you don't learn
in the ways that the system is designed, then it
feels like you're not capable, doesn't it, right, Yes, And
so what do we do about that? How do we
help kids with that?
Speaker 2 (12:35):
If a kid needs something explained, you don't question why
they need it explained or deny them the explanation. You
explain it to them. Again. There were a lot of times,
especially with math stuff because I hate math, there were
(12:56):
several times when I would have to have the same
thing explained to me over and over again. I think
in particular it was division because I didn't really understand
what the whole thing of what it meant to divide
was so I had to have my teacher explain it
to me multiple times, and every time that it was
(13:17):
explained to me, I took something away from it, but
I didn't take the whole thing away from that.
Speaker 1 (13:24):
Does a building process, Yes, And I want to point
out here you are wicked smart. It has nothing to
do with smarts, right right.
Speaker 2 (13:34):
I would like to believe it. As you know, a normal,
normal brain is a disgusting term. But like you know,
non neurodivergent people, their information is more like a block
or like a square. It's just a solid thing, m h.
And when they learn it, it's there. But with neurodivirgin people,
(13:56):
it's like building blocks. Every time it's explained to you,
you get a new part of the puzzle, and yet
sometimes you get the whole puzzle and sometimes you don't.
Speaker 1 (14:06):
Yeah, that's such a good way to explain it, bed
I like that. It makes it really easy for us
to understand from the outside. So we're on number four, right,
of your lessons learned? What's number four?
Speaker 2 (14:20):
Yes, find your people? The rest don't matter.
Speaker 1 (14:24):
How did you find your people.
Speaker 2 (14:26):
My circumstance, I guess, but I did look for them
kind of.
Speaker 1 (14:31):
Yeah, I think it was when you joined robotics club
in middle school.
Speaker 2 (14:35):
Possibly i'd argue that point, but I feel like it
was before that. But Robotics Cup did certainly affirm those
friendships for me because it was me realizing that, hey,
these people are a lot like me, aren't they.
Speaker 1 (14:55):
Yeah, so looking for people with similar interest to you
or even like similar challenges, I think you can bond
over that as well.
Speaker 2 (15:06):
Yeah, Like I think about eighty percent of my friends
there's some form of neurodivergent mm hmmm.
Speaker 1 (15:13):
Yeah, And I think a lot of times neurodivergent people
have similar interest too. Like you guys were really interested
in gaming, you were really interested in technology and stuff
like that. That's why you guys were in robotics together
in the first place, because you had similar interests. But
(15:33):
it can feel for parents, especially like your kids are
never going to find good friends, They're never going to
have a really solid connection. And what would you say to.
Speaker 2 (15:47):
That that it's not true and that there is someone
for everyone out there, regardless of it's friendship or relationship.
Everyone has someone that they can get along with in
the world, and all you have to do is just
keep looking.
Speaker 1 (16:05):
Yeah, being open to meeting new people and stuff like that,
which can be really hard too for a lot of people.
But I think what we tried to do to help
you was just to keep encouraging you to participate in
things that you were interested in, knowing that there would
be people your age with similar interests there as well,
(16:28):
and that that would be a helpful maybe environment for
you to meet your tribe, to find your people. What
is your number five?
Speaker 2 (16:37):
But you're never fully stuck?
Speaker 1 (16:41):
I think everybody needs a big exhale in that one.
You're never fully stuck? Does it feel often like you're
fully stuck?
Speaker 2 (16:49):
Yes?
Speaker 1 (16:50):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (16:51):
I think there are times where I've bricked myself in
a corner because I felt so stuck that I couldn't
do anything. But eventually there was a way to solve
that problem. So even if you feel stuck, there's always
some way to get yourself out of it.
Speaker 1 (17:10):
Can you give some examples? I know that's going to
be different for everybody, but how did you work yourself
out of that corner when you felt like you were
totally stuck for good?
Speaker 2 (17:24):
Well? I would sit there in that corner and it
would really feel like I was just not going to
be able to get out of it. But eventually you
start to see if you really try, you start to
see the ways that it can get better, and you
usually act on those and it'll help you get unstuck.
Speaker 1 (17:47):
And I from the parent side, would add to take
the pressure off. And I know you're a big proponent
of stop pressuring your kids, stop pressuring your students. Yeah,
so I know you would agree with that. But also
what strikes me is that you needed time to be
able to think through it. And so what I know
(18:09):
about the nervous system and the brain is that when
you were in that corner and you were getting the
feeling of being bricked in and completely and hopelessly stuck,
it was because your emotional and survival brains were taking
over and your thinking brain was becoming inaccessible, and so
you couldn't really see a way out because you couldn't rationalize,
(18:30):
you couldn't problem solve. But you sat in that until
your thinking brain was able to come back online because
your nervous system had calmed down and your emotional brain
had calmed down, and then you were able to think
more clearly and to really problem solve and be able
to see that yes, I can get unstuck. This isn't hopeless.
(18:51):
Does that feel true to you?
Speaker 2 (18:54):
Yes?
Speaker 1 (18:54):
Yeah, it's amazing when we learn about what our bodies
and our brains are doing during those times, how much
it describes exactly what we need to know to do
the most helpful thing for our kids. So what I
needed to know in those instances to help you was
to give you time, right, which I know you will
(19:17):
nod your head vehemently in agreement. I struggled with for
a long time giving you time and space, right, Yes,
I see you nodding.
Speaker 2 (19:26):
Yes.
Speaker 1 (19:26):
Yes, it was very hard because why do you know
why it was so hard for me to give you
space and time? No, because I wanted to help you
so bad, And that's where so many parents get stuck
in that same trap that I did. I wanted to
help you so bad right away, and what I was
inadvertently doing was actually making it harder for you, right
(19:50):
because I was putting all that pressure on. I was
piling onto the overwhelm, and I didn't see that for
a long time until you we were able to let
me know what was going on and what I was
actually doing. What that felt like to you on the
receiving side of it. And I've been working really hard
(20:12):
to not pressure you to talk about things right away
and to give you time and space. How have I
been doing better?
Speaker 3 (20:21):
Better?
Speaker 1 (20:22):
Still room for improvement? Yeah, I'm sure, yeah, because mom
just wants to help. Man, it's hard. It's hard when
you're a parent to see your kid struggle and to say, Okay, well,
you know, I've got to give him time. I have
to give him longer to feel really crappy, but it
(20:42):
really is true for all of us, and I have
to remind myself of that. We all have a similar
nervous system and a similar brain, you know, in the
ways that it sometimes gets stuck and what helps, and
so we have to remember that just like we sometimes
just need time and quiet and space, so do you,
So do our kids, so to our students. So let's
(21:21):
talk about my list of my parent lessons, because I
think you're going to have a lot of input for
what I have on my list too, And I'm really
curious about that as well, what you're going to say
to that. And I think we've touched on some of
it already, but I would say that I would start
with there's nothing to fix and that kind of dovetails
(21:44):
with one of your lessons, and I got really stuck
and fix it mode when you were in first grade
and second grade and third grade and you were really
having a hard time, and I was getting so much
pressure from the school that you had to behave a
certain way, you had to learn certain things, and I
(22:06):
was just trying to help you to meet those expectations,
not understanding that that was a completely wrong way to
go about it. That it wasn't about fixing the situation
making you capable of fitting into their box. It was
about helping everyone see that you learned differently and helping
(22:29):
you to do it in your way and your time.
And it took me a really long time to learn that,
and I wasted a lot of time trying to fix it.
So now when I look back, that's one of my
biggest lessons for parents and for educators. There's nothing to fix.
It's not a matter of fixing something. It's not a
(22:51):
matter of making kids fit into this box that you've
dreamed up. It's about opening that box, flattening all the
sides of that box, and being free to be creative
and to be different, to learn differently, and to show
what you've learned differently, to participate in a birthday party differently.
(23:11):
Maybe you know it's okay for you to go about
the world differently. Do you agree?
Speaker 2 (23:17):
Yes?
Speaker 1 (23:18):
Yeah, And we have a long way to go, don't we,
with especially with our education system, to say it's okay
to do it differently. But there's a really big acceptance
for parents, and it's a process that we have to
go through to realize that we're not trying to change
the diagnoses. We're not trying to change the child that
we have. We have a fantastic, wonderful child with thoughts
(23:41):
of greatness within them. It's a matter of helping them
figure out what that journey looks like for them, because
it can be different than that really stereotypical path that
we want to push every kid to. My number two,
(24:02):
you can co escalate or you can co regulate. Can
you remember times when I've co escalated you?
Speaker 2 (24:09):
Yes?
Speaker 1 (24:10):
Yeah, probably more than you can count. Yes, Because it
took me a long time to learn this right that
I had to really stay calm, that I had to
take a step back and let you find your way
sometimes it didn't have to be my way again, And
then you know what we want to do instead of
co escalating is to coregulate. And I will say about
(24:32):
co escalating, it's not our intention. It's never our intention
to make things worse, to get you more stuck, or
to get you more just regulated. It is our instinct
to respond in kind. So if you're yelling, it's my
instinct in my body to yell back for protection. And
we have to as parents and educators and other adults
(24:53):
in your lives, we have to figure out how to
offer you calm tomorrow, how to stay calm for our
so that we can stay in that thinking brain and
we can stay regulated so that we can actually be
helpful to you. Because just like it's hard for you
to do things when you're just regulated, it's hard for
appearents and educators to do things when they're just regulated too.
(25:16):
So we have to work really hard at not escalating
the situation but offering calm to try to help our
kids too become regulated again and be back online with
all of those thinking brain, emotional brain, survival brain working
in harmony. And so that's my number two. Can you
think of like one example where I was super co
(25:39):
escalating that you can share no, no, nothing, like jumps
out at you like, oh this time, mom really was
not just off it. No, I'll take that as a win.
Maybe then, okay, you haven't been scarred by anything that
I've No. Am I better at co regulating, offering you
(26:01):
coregulation and calm now than I used to be. Yes, yeah,
you sound like maybe you don't believe that, but you
want you don't have to say what you think I
want to hear.
Speaker 2 (26:13):
There are times, but it's it's better.
Speaker 1 (26:17):
Yeah. I mean, I'm human, right, dude, I understand that
I'm human. I'm going to make mistakes. Parents make mistakes
just like kids.
Speaker 2 (26:25):
I'm not denying that.
Speaker 1 (26:27):
No, I know. I'm just pointing it out for everybody listening.
We're human beings as parents or teachers or whatever, and
we're going to make mistakes. We're gonna get caught up,
but we certainly are trying right, and when we know better,
we do better. So I know better and I'm working
on doing better. So my number three, which we've already
talked about, my number three biggest lesson was that pressure
(26:50):
makes things less doable for everyone, I think, but especially
for neurodivergent individuals. If I put pressure on you then
you kind of shut down, Right, Do you want to
talk a little bit about that? Because I know this
is a big topic for you. It's a big sticking
point for you. And it's sort of the societal tool
(27:13):
that we're taught to use that we put pressure on
kids to perform, to do what we've asked. If you
don't do this, this thing you don't like is going
to happen, right, the whole crime and punishment. And I
learned from you in pretty recent years when you were
finally able to sort of pinpoint it and to tell
(27:36):
me about it, that the more pressure people put on you,
the less capable you are of meeting whatever expectation they're
pressuring you on. Right, What does that feel like for
you when somebody is really pressuring you?
Speaker 2 (27:52):
Not good?
Speaker 1 (27:53):
Yeah, obviously? Can you describe though, Like, are there certain
feelings in your body or certain thoughts that you have
when you're getting really pressured.
Speaker 2 (28:03):
I don't want to do it. That's a pretty common
thought on I'm being pressured because it feels less of
doing it of my own volition and more of this
person is forcing me to do it. So I kind
of have to do it now, don't I? You don't
like to be told what to do. Right, I'm less
likely to procrastinate if I set up the thing for
(28:25):
myself than if I'm told to do it.
Speaker 1 (28:27):
M that's so good. Say that again.
Speaker 3 (28:30):
Uh no, No, you're less likely to procrastinate if you
set it up for yourself.
Speaker 2 (28:42):
Set it up for yourself then if you're told to
do it by someone else, because it feels more like
your goal than someone else's.
Speaker 1 (28:51):
And that interchange was an exact example.
Speaker 2 (28:53):
You're welcome, right.
Speaker 1 (28:55):
You just felt pressured by me to do it because
I I just wanted you to reiterate that for people listening,
because it's so so good. We need to know that
in order to do right by you.
Speaker 2 (29:09):
I was with you.
Speaker 1 (29:10):
I know, I was goofing my favorite thing about you.
You're so funny and kind and I love it. I
always laugh with you. It's amazing part of your greatness.
So my number four, I'm on. My number four behavior
is often a physiological instinctual response. This is what I
(29:34):
learned from learning more about neurobiology and brain science, is
that our nervous systems are sending us messages constantly, and
very often that message is of danger, and sometimes there
is danger, and sometimes it's a false alarm. But so
(29:55):
often behavior is an instinct well automatic response to something
that is hard. Right, if it's a challenging or unwanted behavior,
it came from something that was hard and it was
an automatic response. So your child or your student didn't
sit down and go while I'm gonna scream at mom
(30:17):
and tell her I hate her and then I'm gonna
get my way. That doesn't happen. It just automatically. Your
body is trying to protect itself. Our kids' bodies are
trying to protect themselves, and that's what we're on the
receiving end of. And it can feel really intentional, it
can feel very personal, but so often it's not. That
was a big, big, big, big big parenting aha for me,
(30:41):
a big mindset shift for me. That was really helpful
because then I could more often see that Luke wasn't
giving me a hard time, he was having a hard time.
I could tell when he was having a hard time,
and then that made me go, Okay, how do I
help him? Versus why is he doing this to me?
Why is he acting this way? Do you have any
(31:02):
input for that one? But no, nope, nothing. Does it
feel true. Yeah, yeah, Sometimes you aren't really in control
of your responses to things. Yeah yeah. And one big
clue for me when you were growing up on that
was that something would happen, it'd be really hard, it'd
(31:25):
be really intense, and then later you would come and
you would say, I'm so sorry, Mom, I didn't mean
for that to happen, or you know, I don't mean
what I said. And then I knew that you weren't
really in control because you weren't okay with what happened either.
And I think that parents really have to key into that.
(31:45):
That's a big signal that that was more of an automatic,
instinctual response.
Speaker 2 (31:50):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (31:52):
So my number five, My number five, The relationship always
comes first. You're reallylationship as the adult, the parent, the educator,
or the soccer coach, whoever you are as an adult
in the life of a neurodivergent kid, the relationship between
you and the connection has to be the top priority.
(32:16):
So some days homework isn't a thing because the relationship
matters more. Some days getting that math work sheet done
in the classroom isn't the top priority. The top priority
is the connection and the relationship with that student. What
happens when you have a good relationship with the adults
(32:37):
in your life, Buddy, what happens when you feel a
good connection with your parents, your teachers, your grandparents, you know, whoever.
Speaker 2 (32:47):
You're a coach, it feels a lot easier to trust
them with knowing about your struggles when they seem to
understand them, so you'll go to them more frequently when
you have problems with something.
Speaker 1 (33:04):
Yeah, And does it make you feel more understood?
Speaker 2 (33:09):
Yes?
Speaker 1 (33:10):
And does that make things feel more doable?
Speaker 2 (33:13):
Yes?
Speaker 1 (33:14):
Yeah. I remember so many times we battled about homework
because school was really hard for you, and it was
pretty unfair. I think for any kid it's unfair for
them to have to do homework. Truly, you have already
been doing seven hours of it during the day. You
need a life outside of school. But that's a whole
(33:34):
other conversation.
Speaker 2 (33:36):
Homework is bad. I'd love to have that conversation.
Speaker 1 (33:40):
Yeah, you were so spent by the time you got home. Right,
How hard were you working at school to keep it together,
to try to fit and do what you were asked
to do? Hard, way harder than people realized.
Speaker 2 (33:54):
Right.
Speaker 1 (33:55):
Yeah, And so did you have any energy left or
any will to do more hard like no math work
or writing or reading.
Speaker 2 (34:06):
You expel all of your energy at school and all
of your willingness to do anything that you like don't
want to at school. So the fact that they expect
you to come home and do more school stuff is abysmal.
Because homework is not an optional thing. You have to
(34:29):
do it. So they're literally forcing you to go home
and do more school in an environment you know you
could be doing not school.
Speaker 1 (34:40):
Yeah. Yeah, And you just need a break, don't you.
Speaker 2 (34:44):
Yes. I feel like that's not even for neurodivergent children.
Speaker 1 (34:48):
That's just everyone.
Speaker 2 (34:50):
Oh, homework is terrible and the prospect of homework is insulting.
Speaker 1 (34:57):
I agree, but I agree for all kids. I don't
want to get way into this in this conversation. We'll
definitely do another episode and we'll get into it, oh
for sure, But for now, this just illustrates so much
why the relationship is so important, because we are asking
(35:17):
our kids to do really hard things, and we often
don't recognize that these things are harder for our kids
than maybe they were for us as kids, maybe they
are for their peers in the classroom, and so we
have to see them. We have to hear them, we
have to meet them where they are, and all of
(35:39):
that is part of making sure that the relationship comes first.
Don't you feel Luke the most capable when people really
get it around you and when they're really open to
you doing things in your own way and your own time.
Speaker 2 (36:00):
Yes.
Speaker 1 (36:01):
Yes, such short answers from you today are usually such
a talker. So let's have some final thoughts. What is
one final thought for any kids or young adults who
are neurodivergent who are listening?
Speaker 2 (36:18):
Don't do drugs?
Speaker 1 (36:19):
Look ever it?
Speaker 2 (36:21):
Yeah? Okay. Regardless of what your aspirations are, you can
achieve them, unless this aspirations are to achieve un vehicular flight.
But whatever your dreams are, if you work hard enough
to get it and believe in yourself to get it,
you can get it regardless of your nerdivergency. Nice and
(36:48):
don't do drugs?
Speaker 1 (36:49):
Yes, I agree with that. What is your final message
for parents or teachers, educators adults in your life?
Speaker 2 (36:59):
Do you got it?
Speaker 1 (37:03):
Okay? What is your final helpful thought for the adults?
Speaker 2 (37:11):
Apply what you learned here to your teaching or parenting.
Speaker 1 (37:17):
That's why we're doing this, is it not?
Speaker 2 (37:20):
Yes, observation, Mom, thank you.
Speaker 1 (37:25):
So I will just say for Luke. Luke's final overarching
message for the adults is to quit putting pressure on us,
because I know that's what you would probably say, because
you've said it a thousand times. Okay, Oh, I love you.
And so my final thoughts as I reflect on this
(37:49):
journey of being your mom is one how much I've
learned from you, and how much of a better person
I am and a better parent I am because of you,
and how truly grateful I am. Things have been hard,
(38:10):
no doubt, but you are an amazing human being, and
I'm so very grateful that you gave me the opportunity
to be more empathetic, more compassionate, more understanding, and more
open to a lot of differences and a lot of
(38:35):
different people and different perspectives. And I just feel like
my life is richer because you've helped me learn these things.
And my life is richer because this has afforded me
the opportunity to help other people. And it's so amazing
(38:56):
to be able to spend my days helping other people,
Helping kids like you, helping parents like me, helping the teachers,
and the principles and the school counselors to really letting people,
letting kids be exactly who they are and celebrating it.
(39:17):
And I'm just so in awe in all of you,
and in awe of everyone and what we get to
do and the impact that we get to make. I'm
just so grateful. And that is two hundred episodes. I
can't believe it. To one hundred conversations that I have
(39:39):
had and put out there for the world. And we're
going to keep going, right and Luke, you're going to
be on more episodes in the future. I'm so glad.
I'm so glad. I know our listeners are glad to
all right. Well, number two hundred is in the books,
it's out there, and I'm so happy to keep having
(40:00):
these conversations and to keep trying to help help families
like ours and help kiddos like you. So I will
see everyone on the next episode. Take good care. I
see you. You're doing hard and meaningful work and you
don't have to do it alone. If you found this
episode helpful, share it with someone who needs it and
(40:22):
leave a quick review so others can find this support too.
When you're ready for next steps. The Regulated Kid's Project
is here with the tools, coaching, and community to help
you raise a more regulated, resilient child. Get more info
at regulated kids dot com.
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