Motivation isn’t what we’ve been taught it is. When we misunderstand it, we accidentally shame our kids for struggling with something they can’t control.
In this powerful conversation, I sit down with ADHD coach and cognitive engineer, Jeff Copper, to unpack motivation through the lens of executive function impairment. What if your child isn’t unmotivated at all? What if their brain simply requires more effort (more emotional cost) to produce the same outcome as their peers?
Jeff reframes motivation as a two-force system: the automatic brain (driven by comfort and survival) and the executive functioning brain (driven by effortful achievement). When executive function is impaired, as it is in ADHD, the balance tips. Tasks feel colder. Harder. More painful. And avoidance suddenly makes perfect sense.
We also dive into why traditional strategies like willpower, rewards, and even common accommodations like “extra time” often fail. In fact, some accommodations simply prolong suffering rather than relieve impairment.
Instead, Jeff introduces the idea of adaptive accommodations — support that reduces cognitive load and restores equilibrium. Think cueing questions, direct oral processing, printing assignments instead of forcing everything digital, and providing scaffolding that truly fits the brain.
This conversation is about dignity. It’s about seeing the invisible impairment. It’s about shifting from shame to understanding.
You can find additional resources at parentingadhdandautism.com and Regulated Kids.com — because it’s not just about the struggles, it’s about progress, one step at a time.
Show notes and more resources at parentingadhdandautism.com/347
Become a supporter of this podcast: https://www.spreaker.com/podcast/beautifully-complex--6137613/support.
You can find additional resources at parentingadhdandautism.com and Regulated Kids.com — because it’s not just about the struggles, it’s about progress, one step at a time.
In this powerful conversation, I sit down with ADHD coach and cognitive engineer, Jeff Copper, to unpack motivation through the lens of executive function impairment. What if your child isn’t unmotivated at all? What if their brain simply requires more effort (more emotional cost) to produce the same outcome as their peers?
Jeff reframes motivation as a two-force system: the automatic brain (driven by comfort and survival) and the executive functioning brain (driven by effortful achievement). When executive function is impaired, as it is in ADHD, the balance tips. Tasks feel colder. Harder. More painful. And avoidance suddenly makes perfect sense.
We also dive into why traditional strategies like willpower, rewards, and even common accommodations like “extra time” often fail. In fact, some accommodations simply prolong suffering rather than relieve impairment.
Instead, Jeff introduces the idea of adaptive accommodations — support that reduces cognitive load and restores equilibrium. Think cueing questions, direct oral processing, printing assignments instead of forcing everything digital, and providing scaffolding that truly fits the brain.
This conversation is about dignity. It’s about seeing the invisible impairment. It’s about shifting from shame to understanding.
You can find additional resources at parentingadhdandautism.com and Regulated Kids.com — because it’s not just about the struggles, it’s about progress, one step at a time.
Show notes and more resources at parentingadhdandautism.com/347
Become a supporter of this podcast: https://www.spreaker.com/podcast/beautifully-complex--6137613/support.
You can find additional resources at parentingadhdandautism.com and Regulated Kids.com — because it’s not just about the struggles, it’s about progress, one step at a time.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:01):
There are accommodations for ADHD, but I've got a bone
to pick with them, and I'm going to pick on
extra time. I like this one because it is commonplace,
whether it's extra timeline test or extra time to do
a thing effectively. Penny, all we're doing is allowing people
a longer time to suffer. We're not relieving the impairment.
We're just having you suffer longer.
Speaker 2 (00:25):
Welcome to Beautifully Complex, where we unpack what it really
means to parent neurodivergent kids with dignity and clarity. I'm
Penny Williams, and I know firsthand how tough and transformative
this journey can be. Let's dive in and discover how
to raise regulated, resilient, beautifully complex kids together. Oh and
(00:45):
if you want more support, join our free community at
hub dot beautifully complex dot life. Welcome back, parents, educators,
and other caring adults in our nerd of our kids' lives.
I have Jeff copper Back on the podcast with me,
someone I consider a leading expert in ADHD and also
(01:09):
a friend, and we just have the most amazing conversations
about really getting deep into the meat of ADHD and
neurodivergence and what is going on for our kids. And
I'm just excited as always to chat with you about
new ideas, Jeff, But will you start by letting everybody
(01:30):
know who you are and what you do.
Speaker 1 (01:32):
Yes, I'm Jeff Copper. I'm a cognitive engineer and an
ADHD coach. I've been working for nineteen years in this
space as a coach and a cognitive engineer. I do that.
I got my own podcast, I got a YouTube channel.
I'll do a fair amount of speaking, and I do
a lot of advocating for those with cognitive disabilities. I'm
involved with the disability board of a nonprofit in helping
(01:54):
some lobbyist form public policy. So I'm kind of all
things ADHD. Y Yeah.
Speaker 2 (02:00):
Yeah, And you've been podcasting for a really long time
at this point. I think you were one of the
very first to be talking about ADHD in that way.
And I've learned so very much from you over the
years as my kid has grown up. It's been such
a good resource and I just I value it so much.
I know that so many other people do as well.
(02:21):
Let's get into the topic of motivation and executive function
and neurodvergence. And I think we have to start with
clarifying motivation because a lack of motivation isn't laziness, but
that's what we're taught it is. So how do we
reframe that?
Speaker 1 (02:42):
Well, that's what I'm here today to do, and I
want to reframe this with a new way of looking
at motivation. So I'm going to give a little bit okay,
blah blah blah blah for some of it, just to
devalidate it. But we'll try to keep it nice and simple.
When you think about it, Motivation is this internal that
determines what you do and don't do, like at its
(03:04):
most basic level, I like to keep it just that basic. Now.
I'm glad you're having me on here, because the topic
of motivation is quite emotional, right. A lot of times
people look at people with ADHD and say that person's
not motivated. That is actually an emotional observation, it's not
an objective observation. If somebody's just sitting on the couch
(03:28):
not doing their homework, it's not that they're motivated. It's
they're motivated to sit on the couch. That's what it is.
That's a subtlety but why is that important. Well, if
somebody's motivated to sit on the couch and you're saying
you're not motivated, all you're doing is shaming the individual.
You're not really helping them. But if you go they're
more motivated to sit on the couch than they are
to do that, now you go, oh, there's a problem.
(03:50):
What do I do in the environment to shift things
so that they would naturally do what might be good
for them? So it changes our approach in trying to
solve the problem. Does that make sense? Yeah?
Speaker 2 (04:02):
Totally. And it's hard to let go of some of
those ideas that have been ingrained in us as parents
or educators. And so it's really important that we're talking
about what motivation really, what drives it, where does it
come from? Why is it a struggle versus I'm just
going to find any way to motivate my kead whatever
(04:23):
it takes. Absolutely, because that doesn't work, right, That's what
we're seeing. That's why we're talking about it, because that
doesn't work.
Speaker 1 (04:29):
So I like to today I need to get into
a little bit weeds because I would like to kind
of frame out a new way of viewing motivation, particularly
in the context of people with executive function and impairment,
so that we can make logical sense of this and
then come back to the motion. Is that okay? Yeah?
Speaker 2 (04:48):
Absolutely So.
Speaker 1 (04:50):
I'm a big fan of doctor Russell Barklay's executive Functioning
construct and I've done a lot of working with it,
and you know, Penny and you and I have talked
about it. But he talks about the brain being a
two level system. You have an automatic brain, which is
more primitive, and you have the executive functioning brain, which
is very effortful because it takes a lot of energy
for the executive function brain to override the automatic It's
(05:11):
almost like when you're going back for seconds and you're
really hungry, like you know you shouldn't need it, but
you do it anyway. There's a fight that's going on there.
So what I've done is changed motivation. As we look
at it as a two four system. You have the
automatic brain or the primitive brains motivation, and you have
(05:32):
the executive functioning brain motivation. So when we split it
into two competing forces, that's what we have. We have
two forces that are actually competing for dominance to see
what wins. That brings in some interesting things. So, if
we begin to look at the automatic brain, it's motivation
(05:54):
is emotional. It's based off of your urges, your desire
to seek play measure, or your desire to escape discomfort.
It's actually a survival mechanism. Like we forage for food
for pleasure because we need nourishment. We come in from
the hot and cold because it's uncomfortable. Again, I don't
want to minimize it, but our primitive brain is driven
(06:18):
by our emotional urges to survive. Our executive functioning brain
is driven by the emotional desire for achievement. Right, Our
emotional desire for achievement. Right. But let's talk about this.
(06:39):
The executive functioning brain is effortful. Right when it wants
to achieve something. There's a level of discomfort that is
present for this to happen. So to bring this in
a tangible way that I hope people can identify with,
I use my personal experience. I was a swimmer. I
(07:00):
was internationally ranked at one time in the eighties. When
I'm standing over water's edge, right, it's uncomfortable. Often because
the pool temperatures seventy nine degrees, it's cold. When I
dive in, I'm going to get a shock that I'm
not going to like. It's not going to be pleasant.
So a lot of times I'm sitting there, come on, Jeff,
go and I think a lot of people can maybe
think about being around the pool where're like, okay, maybe
(07:22):
some other people you go and to push them in
or kind of whatever. Again, what I'm really highlighting is
there's a level of discomfort that you have to endure
or I had to endure to dive in and swim
every day. Does it make sense so far? Yep, totally
So if we begin to look at it like that,
right in a neurotypical brain, we have this equilibrium between
(07:45):
these two forces. What I'd like to say is what
makes this really exciting is ADHD is an executive functioning impairment.
I'm going to reiterate it's an executive impairment, but let's
go further. Executive functions are what we use to solve problems.
(08:07):
You and I've talked about this before. Problems are multifaceted
and ambiguous, planning, making decisions, et cetera. Don't want to
get that far into that, but the point really is
it's impaired, which means that it's less efficient. It's less efficient,
it doesn't have the same capacity. So for our purposes today,
(08:28):
I want to illustrate this numerically. It's not right, but
just follow the logic. If the ADHD brain is executive
functions are fifty percent impaired. Okay, let's go with that assumption.
If we look at a neurotypical and they expend one
unit of motivation or one unit of effort and they
(08:50):
get one unit of outcome, that's our baseline. If you've
got ADHD and you have a fifty percent impairment, that
means one unit of motivation or effort would produce a
half a unit of outcome. So we're short. If this
is true, logically, the person with ADC would have to
produce two units of motivation to get one unit of output. Right,
(09:17):
So what's important about this is that effort. There is
an emotional cost associated with that effort. In other words,
it's more painful. So let me go back to where
I was as a swimmer. The pool temperature seventy nine degrees,
but metaphorically, if it's fifty nine degrees for me, it's
(09:38):
more painful. There's a greater to turrent. Now I've literally
driven thirty miles or thirty minutes, gotten to a pool,
stood over water's edge and said not today, and turn
around went home because I didn't run to deal with
the shot. Right, So if I put it in this
thing the water temperature is fifty eight, it's much more
difficult for me than everybody else. So there's a greater
(09:59):
urge right to escape that pain. Because it's a greater pain,
there's an emotional cost. So what happens is that extra
effort swings the pendulum in favor of the automatic brain. Right.
So this is interesting because we look at people with
ADHD and we're quick to judge behavior. They're not doing
(10:20):
what I want them to do. They must be unmotivated
or lazy. But we're not taken into consideration the impairment
with the way I'm describing it. For people they issue
when they do produce, you're like, holy crap, for this illustration.
It takes twice the effort. They're really motivated to do
that stuff because they're having to make up for that discount.
(10:41):
And you know, Penny, one of the things that I
like about you, you advocate so much for parents to
trying to get them help and accommodations, which I'm going
to talk about in a second, that when we begin
to reframe adh this way and we recognize it it's
an invisible, intangible impairment. We talk about it, but because
we don't see it, we act like it's not there yet.
(11:03):
The way I'm describing it now, we now have a
way of looking at it as a means to understand
that different. So I want to kind of pause and
give you an opportunity to clarify or ask any questions.
Speaker 2 (11:15):
Yeah, no, it explains so much. And one thing that
I've really struggled with with my own kid, and I
know so many other parents do as well, is avoiding
discomfort or perceived potential discomfort. And now that makes more
sense from a science perspective, from a biology perspective that
of course you're doing that because you have to put
(11:38):
in more. There's more discomfort than your peers sitting next
to you. You're facing a more difficult challenge, which we know.
But unpacking it this way, I think, really drives it
much closer home, makes it much more tangible. As you
(11:58):
were saying, yeah, I was just talking to somebody else
about this being invisible, there's an invisible disability basically, and
it complicates being able to get the accommodations and things
like that that we're going to talk about as well.
Speaker 1 (12:13):
Absolutely, So I like to use this as a metaphor.
You know, I'm looking at you and you have glasses on.
Imagine if I made you try to read without them,
wouldn't happen? Wouldn't happen? Why? Because it's just too hard?
Speaker 2 (12:27):
Too hard?
Speaker 1 (12:27):
I mean, you might kind of bring the book up
it kind of like, I mean, there's all kinds of
things that you do, but take a lot of effort.
My point really is is if I turn into a
physical disability, makes all the sense in the world. But
because it's cognitive, we can't see it, we tend to
act like it's not there. So the idea here really
it's one thing for me to say that, but anybody
listening to this is still like, Okay, we've got people
out there that we're trying to help. We'd like them
(12:50):
to be able to run their lives together, and so
what do you do? Well, That's why I'm framing this out,
because when you look at it this way, we take
an engineering approach, and I've a new field of engineering
called cognitive or economics from the inside out about adapting
task to the person that its drived off. This we
don't have to get a lot of detail of it,
but when we go at this dilemma from an engineering mindset,
(13:13):
what we've got to do is we've got to do
something to bring these two forces back into equilibrium. So
what can we do. Let's talk about that and the
practicality of it. One is willpower, but let's think about that.
What you're doing is saying I've got to expend a
lot of emotional effort to override my emotional urge to discourage.
(13:34):
What I'm doing is I'm amping up my motions. I'm
not bringing equilibrium together. I'm actually making it actually worse.
That doesn't logically make a lot of sense, So we
take that off the table. Next is rewards. Providing a reward,
and I'm going to argue that it will help, but
it will be limited. And I'm going to tell this
(13:55):
as a story. I was in DC several months ago
working with somebyists that Penny and I both know, and
I was actually at the nation's capital, and I was
imagining there's lots of steps going up the capitol and
I was imagining somebody at the bottom of the steps
without any legs or a wheelchair or a ramp, and
I began to imagine, I might provide a reward to
(14:17):
get them to crawl up all the steps of the Capitol,
but they're having to do it like literally on the ground,
and it's difficult. I might provide a reward to get
to the first step, and then the second step, and
then the third step, and I keep providing rewards to
try to get them up to the top, and they
get there. Now they're there. Wow, that was a lot
of work. There's a lot of effort. To do it
again is going to require more reward because really all
(14:41):
I'm doing is I'm providing a reward to amplify the emotion,
to endure the discomfort. So when you think about it,
rewards have limitations because you have to keep up in
the rewards get the same stuff, and they're not really
bringing equilibrium back to these two forces. So it begins
to explain there's limitations in the reward system. So now
(15:03):
what's our alternative accommodations would be next? There are accommodations
for ADHD. But I've got a bone to pick with them,
and I'm going to pick on extra time.
Speaker 2 (15:15):
Right.
Speaker 1 (15:16):
Not all of them are extra time, but I like
this one because it is commonplace, whether it's extra timelin
a test, or extra time to do a thing effectively. Penny,
all we're doing is allowing people a longer time to suffer. Yes,
we're not relieving the impairment.
Speaker 2 (15:31):
Thank you for saying it.
Speaker 1 (15:32):
We're just having you suffer longer. So let's think about this.
Let's say you gave a person with ADHD extra time
at work. You can do eight hours of work over
ten hours. Well, you're just given longer time to suffer,
so your work longer. So you go from chronic emotional
pain to stretched out. In other words, this is what
(15:54):
burnout is because you're not able to recover. Again, we're
not really providing adaptive a commeddy. We're not really relieving
the impairment. We're just asking them to suffer. So that
doesn't really bring the balance to the impairment. Our alternative
is what I call adaptive accommodations. This is where we're
trying to provide and this is a big word, what
(16:15):
I call systemic relief. So, Penny, when your eyes are
impaired and you're trying to read. I could give the
extra time to read. I don't think that's going to
help any But if we give you glasses, it's mitigating
or eliminating the impairment. It's providing relief, and you're able
to function. So one of the things that I'm trying
(16:37):
to get this the whole new notion out there is
to change the narrative that we need to look at
adaptive accommodations. And you and I there's another podcast that
you and I had talked about that how direct oral
conversations were derived originally. Language was actually derived originally to
solve shared problems. And many times people with a digit
they just need to be able to talk through stuff.
(17:00):
The clutter something is a lot easier if they're talking
with somebody like where do I put this thing? So
we're making a case for providing these adaptive accommodations to
relieve the impairment so people with ADH don't have to suffer.
But what we're doing is ADSU is an executive function impairment,
which is intangible. Having a direct oral conversation is intangible.
(17:22):
We're trying to equate the two to justify why that's
a legitimate accommodations, which, while I'm on my horse, pitty,
we have problems in any facet of our life, whether
it's personal or school, or work or psychological. Have you
ever thought about when you have a problem, what's the
go to? At school, you go talk to the teacher,
You go talk to a tutor, parents help you with homework.
(17:43):
At work, you go to a boss a co worker.
In the psychological world, you go talk to a therapist
or a coach. My point really is is direct oral
conversations is an adaptive accommodation for people with ADHD, yet
we don't recognize it. But the reason I'm so grateful
you're bringing me on the program is if we take
a look at this new model as a two four system,
(18:06):
and we acknowledge that ADHD is an executive function impairment,
we now begin to look at what used to look
like unmotivated or lazy. We begin to understand the plight.
Then when we see that they do do something, we
recognize it probably took them more to get there. Now
we have a greater level of respect for the individual.
(18:26):
So let's quit shaming everybody by saying they're lazy and unmotivated.
Let's look at how they're motivated, because when we do that,
the answers that we find and how we help them
completely change.
Speaker 2 (18:52):
I'm so thankful that you said that we are just
prolonging the struggle, because this has been my argument for years.
When we give kids more time because they have slower
processing speed, because they have executive function impairment, whatever it is,
all we're doing is punishing them, yep, to do the
same work in the same way. We're just prolonging the suffering,
(19:13):
as you said, and we don't get it because we
get so focused on fairness and how it has to
be equal time and equal amount of work. And so
I am just so thankful this conversation where we're actually
comparing compensatory with.
Speaker 1 (19:29):
Adaptive, yes, because then.
Speaker 2 (19:33):
We can start seeing this in a different way that
isn't going to prolong the suffering.
Speaker 1 (19:38):
Absolutely, I'm hoping.
Speaker 2 (19:40):
That we're going to talk about, like, what would adaptive
accommodations look like, what are some examples of those, so
that parents know where they can take this information and
put it in real life.
Speaker 1 (19:50):
So queueing, directorial conversation and toggling are issues. Those are
what what's queuing like? I'm going to try to get
into this a little bit because it's this is intense
stuff if you're not used to it, so bear with me. Yeah,
a lot of times, Penny, we retrieve knowledge by cues.
People they tach like a lot of browser tabs are
(20:10):
open because if they close it, don't forget about it.
In other words, you have a reminder out there's a queue.
And so as an accommodation is if I sat down
with you in the morning and I said, Penny, what
do you got to do today?
Speaker 2 (20:22):
One hundred things?
Speaker 1 (20:23):
What could get in your way? What do you need
in order to get the things done for today? How
much time is it going to take you to do
this task? Right? Those are what I call queuing questions.
I'm asking you to think. You would think that Penny
would do it in the morning. Neurotypicals would do it,
(20:44):
but people day dach because it's kind inteley difficult. It's harder.
But when I ask the questions and she starts to
respond to me, I'm actually helping her retrieve the knowledge
that she has and to begin to think about her day.
That is actually a intentingible accommodation. And I'm sure with
your kids and other people. Sometimes you sit down and say,
(21:04):
what happened in schools today? What is this paper got
to be about? You don't necessarily know it, but you're
actually getting them engaged in the thinking about. You're not
solving the problem. But that's one sitting down with somebody
and saying, hey, tell me what you're going to do,
or tell me what you want to write about. We
talk about verbal processors in our world. For many people
(21:24):
with ADHD, not to talk is not to think. All
you have to do is engage, let them explain it
to you. They'll solve their own problem. Often there's another
real big challenge in our world today with what I
call toggling. And this is really difficult for me to describe.
But when I was in college, I would buy used
books because, like somebody else highlighted and I would just
(21:46):
read the highlight. Imagine I'm reading a text and now
target I see some stuff in yellow that's important, and
I have some notes from class that are important. When
I put it in front of me, I don't have
to read a bunch of extra words. I just read
what's highlighted, and my eyes dart over and they look
at my notes, and I'm able to recognize it. This
(22:09):
is really I have an impaired ability to hold things
in my working memory. But it's not that bad in
our world today. You look at something on a screen,
you can't really highlight it, so you have to read
a whole bunch of extra words to find what you're
looking for. Then you've got to think, oh, I got
to click on this tab, or I got to scroll.
(22:32):
All these other instructions are coming between the part of
time you identify what you're reading and where you're going
to and by the time you get to where you
want to go, you can't remember what you read to
begin with. And so one of the things that I'm
really struggling with, I wouldn't want to be a student today.
There's no printers like I did an interview with doctor
(22:53):
Russell Barkley back in twenty eighteen. We talked about how
papers high tech for people with ADC because if you
print it out, I can see it, and a lot
of school rules it's convenient for them to put this
stuff online. But if you have an executive function impairment
and you have limited capacity, you've already got a stressed
executive function and you're actually making it worse. But people
(23:14):
don't think in those terms. We've got to provide those
printers as an adaptive accommodation right for these people to
do it, or at least give them multiple screens. Nobody's
advocating for that today. Why because it's convenient for the
system to go digital. They're looking at their convenience. They're
(23:35):
not necessarily recognizing these impairments. Again, providing a printer is
to fit the job. The task to the individual, not
the individual have to figure out how they're going to
hold this in the working memory. Again, we're reversing it.
It's no longer about the person changing their behavior, but
getting something to fit. You know, there's that Blindside is
(23:56):
a movie about Michael Orr and there's a part of
that movie where they're talking like they're like realizing the teachers.
This guy knows what he has, but if you ask
him the question, he can explain it to you. But
he has a hard time getting on paper. Why is that?
Because there's a bottleneck between all these ideas and funneling
through that to get it all written down, they start
(24:17):
forgetting stuff. Yep, it was intelligent, but we had to
make those adjustments. So many of these adaptive accommodations are
a bit intangible I acknowledge, and they look like help
because there's somebody there that's that's guiding you with assistance.
But they're there if you look at them, and it's
just really just a matter of tuning in. And you know,
if anybody's interested, we can I can send a list
(24:38):
of send stuff to them. But really, if we begin
to look at this and you look out into the world,
people with the ay DHD really pretty function pretty well
when they're collaborating working with other people because they're helping
them with their executive functions. And the end of the day,
we just got to change the way we look at it,
and we can really make a difference.
Speaker 2 (24:57):
And these are things that parents can ask for for school,
all these types of accommodations. My kid needs this work
on paper, not on their computer, or you know, my
kid needs to talk out the assignment with you before
they get started, or you know, like it does add
more time and effort on the teacher's part, but I
(25:19):
always feel like these sorts of things actually save time
on the back end because the struggle also takes time.
Speaker 1 (25:27):
Let's talk about this in the world of physical disabilities
we got wheelchair ramps, We've got braille, we got signers,
we have all kinds of accommodations for the tangible world.
In the intangible world, we're talking about director all conversations
which often are built in I remember, Penny, when the
pandemic hit in lockdown hit, I thought I was going
(25:49):
to be at a job in sixty days because I'm
expensive and people were struggling. No, my phone lit up
like a Christmas tree. Adults will call me I'm unproductive,
I lack motivation. I'm like, no, it has nothing to
do with that. You were in an environment that had
direct oral conversation. It's no longer there. You're having to
do this in mind, you haven't changed. It was providing
(26:10):
the environment. You just didn't know it. And any Rodgers
Attitude magazine was once said ADC is amplified or muted
based off of the environment. This would begin to explain it.
And so it's already kind of there, but it's not there.
It's not condoned. And so whether it's a student that
might need just like to be able to talk out loud,
(26:31):
or an adult that needs somebody to just say, hey,
what are you doing? Can I help you think through
the problem where you can say I need somebody to
come in. Like I said, it's already there, and it's
already taken place to a certain level, even on the
neurotypical level. It's just because the impairment people of ADC
just need more and they need the ability and right
now you might have to fight it. But that's why
I've always loved you. You've always let me come on
(26:53):
to your podcast and talk about things that are out there,
and this one is really near and dear to my heart,
because we've got to change the way people look at
it so that these things are provided to the kids
and you don't have to fight for them. Yes, And
you know you're in advocacy and I'm in advocacy. We're
fighting that stuff. So we're both people on the same charge.
And you know, I'm a fan of yours because it's
really about helping parents do this and trying to get
(27:14):
the rest of the public that looks at behavior and
infers what's going on in the brain, like the person's lazy, No,
there's an impairment. By the way, you can take tests,
cognitive tests that show that there's an impairment, whether there's
a diagnosis or not. And my program, cognitive Orgonomics from
the inside out's not adhd orgonomicies. These concepts apply to
anybody with an executive function impairment. Anybody.
Speaker 2 (27:37):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, And you know you are reminding me
talking about advocacy my solo cast on the podcast that
published today. Actually, as we're recording, this is about how
we need to provide dignity and humanity to neurodivergent students
because we're robbing them of that when we don't give
(27:59):
them the appropriate accommodation, the adaptive accommodation. We are robbing
them of dignity and humanity and it is traumatizing. Like,
you know, my kid is twenty three and is still
doesn't believe that he could do any higher education or
take any classes that he would not succeed at them.
(28:19):
He has a high aque, he's twice exceptional, he's brilliant,
and yet we are still trying to undo all of
the damage done in our traditional education system by not
looking at it as an impairment and making adaptations instead
of trying to give more time and put on more
(28:40):
pressure and ask for more motivation. Right, and so this
is a soapbox issue for me as well, because we
are harming kids.
Speaker 1 (28:50):
I'd like to share my personal story on this is.
I have adacy, but I have dyslexi, which is really
one of the bigger issues. And when I was in
high school, I couldn't handle chemistry or English much matter,
much less Spanish, so I wasn't I didn't even take
college prep. I was just getting a degree to get out.
I was fortunate enough to be an athlete and to
get on scholar a swimming scholarship. And when I got
(29:12):
to school, I had unlimited tutors. I think the second
semester of my sophomore year I had the highest tutoring
BIL in Indiana University. Wow. And so because I adapted
and I worked with tutors, I had the director oral conversation.
My English teachers are rolling over in the grave to
think that I got my MBA. Not only did I
get it, but I almost I didn't take I didn't
(29:34):
do a paper in my first class because I never
dreamed I get four to oh. But I would have
gotten a four to oh. What's the point comparing and
contrasting where I am. I never thought I would be
able to get a graduate degree much less be successful.
The difference was I had the adaptive accommodations and I
didn't have a problem emotionally going to ask for help.
That can be the difference. And I'm not going to
(29:54):
say that I'm bright, but I think I brought a
few things into this world that's kind of worthwhile. And
there's a lot of untapped talent. I don't personally feel
that ADHD is a gift. It's not something you would
wrap up and give to somebody present. However, people have gifts,
and the issue is add gets in the way. So
we could provide those accommodations so it doesn't get in
the way their natural gifts can come forward. And there's
(30:17):
so many people with ad issue that have contributed a
lot to our world, which goes back to your point,
why are we so cruel and inhumane by making these
suffer only because we can't actually see the impairment. It
really comes down to that, like just because you can't
see a million dollars doesn't mean it doesn't exist.
Speaker 2 (30:33):
Yeah, you can't see it and you don't understand it, yep.
And that's where you know. Teachers have the best of
intentions and they like kids. They want kids to do well.
They wouldn't be a teacher. They just don't get this information.
They're not taught about learning differences, Adhd.
Speaker 1 (30:50):
You make a good point. They're well intended people, but
they're not This isn't common vernacular. They're not taught to
think of it this way. They're not given the support
to do what they need to do. So I'm glad
you brought this up. This is not a knock on them.
They if they knew the answer. But the cool part,
Penny is you'll let me come on and people can
judge this on their own Marat. But the logic of
this makes so much sense to me that I'm hoping
(31:13):
that parents will get this and think about this, watch
this a couple times, go talk to other people about it.
From this vernacular, I think you'll have a really difficult
time arguing against And if somebody like is going to
argue it, it's because they don't want to be confused
the facts because their mind is already made up and
they're just you're not going to get them. But the
people that are on fence go, wow, that actually makes
(31:33):
a lot of sense, and we can change the world
slowly that way.
Speaker 2 (31:37):
Yes, Yes, Jeff tell everybody where they can learn more
about this and your work online.
Speaker 1 (31:43):
My website is digcaching dot com. That's like d ig
like dig a whole coaching dot com. We're talking about
this new theory of motivation was divided by cognive ergonomics
on the inside out. On my page if you click
on services, I do have a program on this. If
you have a teacher that you know or other people
that you think could be beneficient of that as a parent,
(32:04):
if you're interested, you could take the class not required.
It can be very helpful to understand ADC at a
deeper level. But I am trying to get to hr
specialist disability specialist teachers, therapists and coaches because this new
lens changes and refrains how we're looking at things so
that they can be a little bit more effective. And
so I'm just saying that is because I'm trying to
(32:26):
change the world with regard to that. And again, if
I can get to the professionals that help people with ADHD,
we can really make an impact. So again it'stigcaching dot com.
Speaker 2 (32:34):
And I will link that up in the show notes
for everyone at Parenting ADHD and Autism dot com Jeff.
Always a pleasure. I always learn so much, I get inspired,
I feel hopeful after this conversation so many things, and
I really appreciate it.
Speaker 1 (32:49):
Penny, you truly are a thought leader. Like so much
of what you do is just help people out there
that are need There's a lot of other people in
this space that are really more concerned about the dollar,
but you really care about everybody, and I just have
to give it back to you. You're such a resource
for everybody. Thank you for doing what you do.
Speaker 2 (33:05):
Thank you for noticing saying that. Always a pleasure. Well,
I will end here and I will see everybody next time.
Take good care. I see you. You're doing hard and
meaningful work and you don't have to do it alone.
If you found this episode helpful, share it with someone
who needs it and leave a quick review so others
(33:26):
can find this support too. When you're ready for next steps,
the Regulated Kid's Project is here with the tools, coaching,
and community to help you raise a more regulated, resilient child.
Get more info at regulated kids dot com.
There are accommodations for ADHD, but I've got a bone
to pick with them, and I'm going to pick on
extra time. I like this one because it is commonplace,
whether it's extra timeline test or extra time to do
a thing effectively. Penny, all we're doing is allowing people
a longer time to suffer. We're not relieving the impairment.
We're just having you suffer longer.
Speaker 2 (00:25):
Welcome to Beautifully Complex, where we unpack what it really
means to parent neurodivergent kids with dignity and clarity. I'm
Penny Williams, and I know firsthand how tough and transformative
this journey can be. Let's dive in and discover how
to raise regulated, resilient, beautifully complex kids together. Oh and
(00:45):
if you want more support, join our free community at
hub dot beautifully complex dot life. Welcome back, parents, educators,
and other caring adults in our nerd of our kids' lives.
I have Jeff copper Back on the podcast with me,
someone I consider a leading expert in ADHD and also
(01:09):
a friend, and we just have the most amazing conversations
about really getting deep into the meat of ADHD and
neurodivergence and what is going on for our kids. And
I'm just excited as always to chat with you about
new ideas, Jeff, But will you start by letting everybody
(01:30):
know who you are and what you do.
Speaker 1 (01:32):
Yes, I'm Jeff Copper. I'm a cognitive engineer and an
ADHD coach. I've been working for nineteen years in this
space as a coach and a cognitive engineer. I do that.
I got my own podcast, I got a YouTube channel.
I'll do a fair amount of speaking, and I do
a lot of advocating for those with cognitive disabilities. I'm
involved with the disability board of a nonprofit in helping
(01:54):
some lobbyist form public policy. So I'm kind of all
things ADHD. Y Yeah.
Speaker 2 (02:00):
Yeah, And you've been podcasting for a really long time
at this point. I think you were one of the
very first to be talking about ADHD in that way.
And I've learned so very much from you over the
years as my kid has grown up. It's been such
a good resource and I just I value it so much.
I know that so many other people do as well.
(02:21):
Let's get into the topic of motivation and executive function
and neurodvergence. And I think we have to start with
clarifying motivation because a lack of motivation isn't laziness, but
that's what we're taught it is. So how do we
reframe that?
Speaker 1 (02:42):
Well, that's what I'm here today to do, and I
want to reframe this with a new way of looking
at motivation. So I'm going to give a little bit okay,
blah blah blah blah for some of it, just to
devalidate it. But we'll try to keep it nice and simple.
When you think about it, Motivation is this internal that
determines what you do and don't do, like at its
(03:04):
most basic level, I like to keep it just that basic. Now.
I'm glad you're having me on here, because the topic
of motivation is quite emotional, right. A lot of times
people look at people with ADHD and say that person's
not motivated. That is actually an emotional observation, it's not
an objective observation. If somebody's just sitting on the couch
(03:28):
not doing their homework, it's not that they're motivated. It's
they're motivated to sit on the couch. That's what it is.
That's a subtlety but why is that important. Well, if
somebody's motivated to sit on the couch and you're saying
you're not motivated, all you're doing is shaming the individual.
You're not really helping them. But if you go they're
more motivated to sit on the couch than they are
to do that, now you go, oh, there's a problem.
(03:50):
What do I do in the environment to shift things
so that they would naturally do what might be good
for them? So it changes our approach in trying to
solve the problem. Does that make sense? Yeah?
Speaker 2 (04:02):
Totally. And it's hard to let go of some of
those ideas that have been ingrained in us as parents
or educators. And so it's really important that we're talking
about what motivation really, what drives it, where does it
come from? Why is it a struggle versus I'm just
going to find any way to motivate my kead whatever
(04:23):
it takes. Absolutely, because that doesn't work, right, That's what
we're seeing. That's why we're talking about it, because that
doesn't work.
Speaker 1 (04:29):
So I like to today I need to get into
a little bit weeds because I would like to kind
of frame out a new way of viewing motivation, particularly
in the context of people with executive function and impairment,
so that we can make logical sense of this and
then come back to the motion. Is that okay? Yeah?
Speaker 2 (04:48):
Absolutely So.
Speaker 1 (04:50):
I'm a big fan of doctor Russell Barklay's executive Functioning
construct and I've done a lot of working with it,
and you know, Penny and you and I have talked
about it. But he talks about the brain being a
two level system. You have an automatic brain, which is
more primitive, and you have the executive functioning brain, which
is very effortful because it takes a lot of energy
for the executive function brain to override the automatic It's
(05:11):
almost like when you're going back for seconds and you're
really hungry, like you know you shouldn't need it, but
you do it anyway. There's a fight that's going on there.
So what I've done is changed motivation. As we look
at it as a two four system. You have the
automatic brain or the primitive brains motivation, and you have
(05:32):
the executive functioning brain motivation. So when we split it
into two competing forces, that's what we have. We have
two forces that are actually competing for dominance to see
what wins. That brings in some interesting things. So, if
we begin to look at the automatic brain, it's motivation
(05:54):
is emotional. It's based off of your urges, your desire
to seek play measure, or your desire to escape discomfort.
It's actually a survival mechanism. Like we forage for food
for pleasure because we need nourishment. We come in from
the hot and cold because it's uncomfortable. Again, I don't
want to minimize it, but our primitive brain is driven
(06:18):
by our emotional urges to survive. Our executive functioning brain
is driven by the emotional desire for achievement. Right, Our
emotional desire for achievement. Right. But let's talk about this.
(06:39):
The executive functioning brain is effortful. Right when it wants
to achieve something. There's a level of discomfort that is
present for this to happen. So to bring this in
a tangible way that I hope people can identify with,
I use my personal experience. I was a swimmer. I
(07:00):
was internationally ranked at one time in the eighties. When
I'm standing over water's edge, right, it's uncomfortable. Often because
the pool temperatures seventy nine degrees, it's cold. When I
dive in, I'm going to get a shock that I'm
not going to like. It's not going to be pleasant.
So a lot of times I'm sitting there, come on, Jeff,
go and I think a lot of people can maybe
think about being around the pool where're like, okay, maybe
(07:22):
some other people you go and to push them in
or kind of whatever. Again, what I'm really highlighting is
there's a level of discomfort that you have to endure
or I had to endure to dive in and swim
every day. Does it make sense so far? Yep, totally
So if we begin to look at it like that,
right in a neurotypical brain, we have this equilibrium between
(07:45):
these two forces. What I'd like to say is what
makes this really exciting is ADHD is an executive functioning impairment.
I'm going to reiterate it's an executive impairment, but let's
go further. Executive functions are what we use to solve problems.
(08:07):
You and I've talked about this before. Problems are multifaceted
and ambiguous, planning, making decisions, et cetera. Don't want to
get that far into that, but the point really is
it's impaired, which means that it's less efficient. It's less efficient,
it doesn't have the same capacity. So for our purposes today,
(08:28):
I want to illustrate this numerically. It's not right, but
just follow the logic. If the ADHD brain is executive
functions are fifty percent impaired. Okay, let's go with that assumption.
If we look at a neurotypical and they expend one
unit of motivation or one unit of effort and they
(08:50):
get one unit of outcome, that's our baseline. If you've
got ADHD and you have a fifty percent impairment, that
means one unit of motivation or effort would produce a
half a unit of outcome. So we're short. If this
is true, logically, the person with ADC would have to
produce two units of motivation to get one unit of output. Right,
(09:17):
So what's important about this is that effort. There is
an emotional cost associated with that effort. In other words,
it's more painful. So let me go back to where
I was as a swimmer. The pool temperature seventy nine degrees,
but metaphorically, if it's fifty nine degrees for me, it's
(09:38):
more painful. There's a greater to turrent. Now I've literally
driven thirty miles or thirty minutes, gotten to a pool,
stood over water's edge and said not today, and turn
around went home because I didn't run to deal with
the shot. Right, So if I put it in this
thing the water temperature is fifty eight, it's much more
difficult for me than everybody else. So there's a greater
(09:59):
urge right to escape that pain. Because it's a greater pain,
there's an emotional cost. So what happens is that extra
effort swings the pendulum in favor of the automatic brain. Right.
So this is interesting because we look at people with
ADHD and we're quick to judge behavior. They're not doing
(10:20):
what I want them to do. They must be unmotivated
or lazy. But we're not taken into consideration the impairment
with the way I'm describing it. For people they issue
when they do produce, you're like, holy crap, for this illustration.
It takes twice the effort. They're really motivated to do
that stuff because they're having to make up for that discount.
(10:41):
And you know, Penny, one of the things that I
like about you, you advocate so much for parents to
trying to get them help and accommodations, which I'm going
to talk about in a second, that when we begin
to reframe adh this way and we recognize it it's
an invisible, intangible impairment. We talk about it, but because
we don't see it, we act like it's not there yet.
(11:03):
The way I'm describing it now, we now have a
way of looking at it as a means to understand
that different. So I want to kind of pause and
give you an opportunity to clarify or ask any questions.
Speaker 2 (11:15):
Yeah, no, it explains so much. And one thing that
I've really struggled with with my own kid, and I
know so many other parents do as well, is avoiding
discomfort or perceived potential discomfort. And now that makes more
sense from a science perspective, from a biology perspective that
of course you're doing that because you have to put
(11:38):
in more. There's more discomfort than your peers sitting next
to you. You're facing a more difficult challenge, which we know.
But unpacking it this way, I think, really drives it
much closer home, makes it much more tangible. As you
(11:58):
were saying, yeah, I was just talking to somebody else
about this being invisible, there's an invisible disability basically, and
it complicates being able to get the accommodations and things
like that that we're going to talk about as well.
Speaker 1 (12:13):
Absolutely, So I like to use this as a metaphor.
You know, I'm looking at you and you have glasses on.
Imagine if I made you try to read without them,
wouldn't happen? Wouldn't happen? Why? Because it's just too hard?
Speaker 2 (12:27):
Too hard?
Speaker 1 (12:27):
I mean, you might kind of bring the book up
it kind of like, I mean, there's all kinds of
things that you do, but take a lot of effort.
My point really is is if I turn into a
physical disability, makes all the sense in the world. But
because it's cognitive, we can't see it, we tend to
act like it's not there. So the idea here really
it's one thing for me to say that, but anybody
listening to this is still like, Okay, we've got people
out there that we're trying to help. We'd like them
(12:50):
to be able to run their lives together, and so
what do you do? Well, That's why I'm framing this out,
because when you look at it this way, we take
an engineering approach, and I've a new field of engineering
called cognitive or economics from the inside out about adapting
task to the person that its drived off. This we
don't have to get a lot of detail of it,
but when we go at this dilemma from an engineering mindset,
(13:13):
what we've got to do is we've got to do
something to bring these two forces back into equilibrium. So
what can we do. Let's talk about that and the
practicality of it. One is willpower, but let's think about that.
What you're doing is saying I've got to expend a
lot of emotional effort to override my emotional urge to discourage.
(13:34):
What I'm doing is I'm amping up my motions. I'm
not bringing equilibrium together. I'm actually making it actually worse.
That doesn't logically make a lot of sense, So we
take that off the table. Next is rewards. Providing a reward,
and I'm going to argue that it will help, but
it will be limited. And I'm going to tell this
(13:55):
as a story. I was in DC several months ago
working with somebyists that Penny and I both know, and
I was actually at the nation's capital, and I was
imagining there's lots of steps going up the capitol and
I was imagining somebody at the bottom of the steps
without any legs or a wheelchair or a ramp, and
I began to imagine, I might provide a reward to
(14:17):
get them to crawl up all the steps of the Capitol,
but they're having to do it like literally on the ground,
and it's difficult. I might provide a reward to get
to the first step, and then the second step, and
then the third step, and I keep providing rewards to
try to get them up to the top, and they
get there. Now they're there. Wow, that was a lot
of work. There's a lot of effort. To do it
again is going to require more reward because really all
(14:41):
I'm doing is I'm providing a reward to amplify the emotion,
to endure the discomfort. So when you think about it,
rewards have limitations because you have to keep up in
the rewards get the same stuff, and they're not really
bringing equilibrium back to these two forces. So it begins
to explain there's limitations in the reward system. So now
(15:03):
what's our alternative accommodations would be next? There are accommodations
for ADHD. But I've got a bone to pick with them,
and I'm going to pick on extra time.
Speaker 2 (15:15):
Right.
Speaker 1 (15:16):
Not all of them are extra time, but I like
this one because it is commonplace, whether it's extra timelin
a test, or extra time to do a thing effectively. Penny,
all we're doing is allowing people a longer time to suffer. Yes,
we're not relieving the impairment.
Speaker 2 (15:31):
Thank you for saying it.
Speaker 1 (15:32):
We're just having you suffer longer. So let's think about this.
Let's say you gave a person with ADHD extra time
at work. You can do eight hours of work over
ten hours. Well, you're just given longer time to suffer,
so your work longer. So you go from chronic emotional
pain to stretched out. In other words, this is what
(15:54):
burnout is because you're not able to recover. Again, we're
not really providing adaptive a commeddy. We're not really relieving
the impairment. We're just asking them to suffer. So that
doesn't really bring the balance to the impairment. Our alternative
is what I call adaptive accommodations. This is where we're
trying to provide and this is a big word, what
(16:15):
I call systemic relief. So, Penny, when your eyes are
impaired and you're trying to read. I could give the
extra time to read. I don't think that's going to
help any But if we give you glasses, it's mitigating
or eliminating the impairment. It's providing relief, and you're able
to function. So one of the things that I'm trying
(16:37):
to get this the whole new notion out there is
to change the narrative that we need to look at
adaptive accommodations. And you and I there's another podcast that
you and I had talked about that how direct oral
conversations were derived originally. Language was actually derived originally to
solve shared problems. And many times people with a digit
they just need to be able to talk through stuff.
(17:00):
The clutter something is a lot easier if they're talking
with somebody like where do I put this thing? So
we're making a case for providing these adaptive accommodations to
relieve the impairment so people with ADH don't have to suffer.
But what we're doing is ADSU is an executive function impairment,
which is intangible. Having a direct oral conversation is intangible.
(17:22):
We're trying to equate the two to justify why that's
a legitimate accommodations, which, while I'm on my horse, pitty,
we have problems in any facet of our life, whether
it's personal or school, or work or psychological. Have you
ever thought about when you have a problem, what's the
go to? At school, you go talk to the teacher,
You go talk to a tutor, parents help you with homework.
(17:43):
At work, you go to a boss a co worker.
In the psychological world, you go talk to a therapist
or a coach. My point really is is direct oral
conversations is an adaptive accommodation for people with ADHD, yet
we don't recognize it. But the reason I'm so grateful
you're bringing me on the program is if we take
a look at this new model as a two four system,
(18:06):
and we acknowledge that ADHD is an executive function impairment,
we now begin to look at what used to look
like unmotivated or lazy. We begin to understand the plight.
Then when we see that they do do something, we
recognize it probably took them more to get there. Now
we have a greater level of respect for the individual.
(18:26):
So let's quit shaming everybody by saying they're lazy and unmotivated.
Let's look at how they're motivated, because when we do that,
the answers that we find and how we help them
completely change.
Speaker 2 (18:52):
I'm so thankful that you said that we are just
prolonging the struggle, because this has been my argument for years.
When we give kids more time because they have slower
processing speed, because they have executive function impairment, whatever it is,
all we're doing is punishing them, yep, to do the
same work in the same way. We're just prolonging the suffering,
(19:13):
as you said, and we don't get it because we
get so focused on fairness and how it has to
be equal time and equal amount of work. And so
I am just so thankful this conversation where we're actually
comparing compensatory with.
Speaker 1 (19:29):
Adaptive, yes, because then.
Speaker 2 (19:33):
We can start seeing this in a different way that
isn't going to prolong the suffering.
Speaker 1 (19:38):
Absolutely, I'm hoping.
Speaker 2 (19:40):
That we're going to talk about, like, what would adaptive
accommodations look like, what are some examples of those, so
that parents know where they can take this information and
put it in real life.
Speaker 1 (19:50):
So queueing, directorial conversation and toggling are issues. Those are
what what's queuing like? I'm going to try to get
into this a little bit because it's this is intense
stuff if you're not used to it, so bear with me. Yeah,
a lot of times, Penny, we retrieve knowledge by cues.
People they tach like a lot of browser tabs are
(20:10):
open because if they close it, don't forget about it.
In other words, you have a reminder out there's a queue.
And so as an accommodation is if I sat down
with you in the morning and I said, Penny, what
do you got to do today?
Speaker 2 (20:22):
One hundred things?
Speaker 1 (20:23):
What could get in your way? What do you need
in order to get the things done for today? How
much time is it going to take you to do
this task? Right? Those are what I call queuing questions.
I'm asking you to think. You would think that Penny
would do it in the morning. Neurotypicals would do it,
(20:44):
but people day dach because it's kind inteley difficult. It's harder.
But when I ask the questions and she starts to
respond to me, I'm actually helping her retrieve the knowledge
that she has and to begin to think about her day.
That is actually a intentingible accommodation. And I'm sure with
your kids and other people. Sometimes you sit down and say,
(21:04):
what happened in schools today? What is this paper got
to be about? You don't necessarily know it, but you're
actually getting them engaged in the thinking about. You're not
solving the problem. But that's one sitting down with somebody
and saying, hey, tell me what you're going to do,
or tell me what you want to write about. We
talk about verbal processors in our world. For many people
(21:24):
with ADHD, not to talk is not to think. All
you have to do is engage, let them explain it
to you. They'll solve their own problem. Often there's another
real big challenge in our world today with what I
call toggling. And this is really difficult for me to describe.
But when I was in college, I would buy used
books because, like somebody else highlighted and I would just
(21:46):
read the highlight. Imagine I'm reading a text and now
target I see some stuff in yellow that's important, and
I have some notes from class that are important. When
I put it in front of me, I don't have
to read a bunch of extra words. I just read
what's highlighted, and my eyes dart over and they look
at my notes, and I'm able to recognize it. This
(22:09):
is really I have an impaired ability to hold things
in my working memory. But it's not that bad in
our world today. You look at something on a screen,
you can't really highlight it, so you have to read
a whole bunch of extra words to find what you're
looking for. Then you've got to think, oh, I got
to click on this tab, or I got to scroll.
(22:32):
All these other instructions are coming between the part of
time you identify what you're reading and where you're going
to and by the time you get to where you
want to go, you can't remember what you read to
begin with. And so one of the things that I'm
really struggling with, I wouldn't want to be a student today.
There's no printers like I did an interview with doctor
(22:53):
Russell Barkley back in twenty eighteen. We talked about how
papers high tech for people with ADC because if you
print it out, I can see it, and a lot
of school rules it's convenient for them to put this
stuff online. But if you have an executive function impairment
and you have limited capacity, you've already got a stressed
executive function and you're actually making it worse. But people
(23:14):
don't think in those terms. We've got to provide those
printers as an adaptive accommodation right for these people to
do it, or at least give them multiple screens. Nobody's
advocating for that today. Why because it's convenient for the
system to go digital. They're looking at their convenience. They're
(23:35):
not necessarily recognizing these impairments. Again, providing a printer is
to fit the job. The task to the individual, not
the individual have to figure out how they're going to
hold this in the working memory. Again, we're reversing it.
It's no longer about the person changing their behavior, but
getting something to fit. You know, there's that Blindside is
(23:56):
a movie about Michael Orr and there's a part of
that movie where they're talking like they're like realizing the teachers.
This guy knows what he has, but if you ask
him the question, he can explain it to you. But
he has a hard time getting on paper. Why is that?
Because there's a bottleneck between all these ideas and funneling
through that to get it all written down, they start
(24:17):
forgetting stuff. Yep, it was intelligent, but we had to
make those adjustments. So many of these adaptive accommodations are
a bit intangible I acknowledge, and they look like help
because there's somebody there that's that's guiding you with assistance.
But they're there if you look at them, and it's
just really just a matter of tuning in. And you know,
if anybody's interested, we can I can send a list
(24:38):
of send stuff to them. But really, if we begin
to look at this and you look out into the world,
people with the ay DHD really pretty function pretty well
when they're collaborating working with other people because they're helping
them with their executive functions. And the end of the day,
we just got to change the way we look at it,
and we can really make a difference.
Speaker 2 (24:57):
And these are things that parents can ask for for school,
all these types of accommodations. My kid needs this work
on paper, not on their computer, or you know, my
kid needs to talk out the assignment with you before
they get started, or you know, like it does add
more time and effort on the teacher's part, but I
(25:19):
always feel like these sorts of things actually save time
on the back end because the struggle also takes time.
Speaker 1 (25:27):
Let's talk about this in the world of physical disabilities
we got wheelchair ramps, We've got braille, we got signers,
we have all kinds of accommodations for the tangible world.
In the intangible world, we're talking about director all conversations
which often are built in I remember, Penny, when the
pandemic hit in lockdown hit, I thought I was going
(25:49):
to be at a job in sixty days because I'm
expensive and people were struggling. No, my phone lit up
like a Christmas tree. Adults will call me I'm unproductive,
I lack motivation. I'm like, no, it has nothing to
do with that. You were in an environment that had
direct oral conversation. It's no longer there. You're having to
do this in mind, you haven't changed. It was providing
(26:10):
the environment. You just didn't know it. And any Rodgers
Attitude magazine was once said ADC is amplified or muted
based off of the environment. This would begin to explain it.
And so it's already kind of there, but it's not there.
It's not condoned. And so whether it's a student that
might need just like to be able to talk out loud,
(26:31):
or an adult that needs somebody to just say, hey,
what are you doing? Can I help you think through
the problem where you can say I need somebody to
come in. Like I said, it's already there, and it's
already taken place to a certain level, even on the
neurotypical level. It's just because the impairment people of ADC
just need more and they need the ability and right
now you might have to fight it. But that's why
I've always loved you. You've always let me come on
(26:53):
to your podcast and talk about things that are out there,
and this one is really near and dear to my heart,
because we've got to change the way people look at
it so that these things are provided to the kids
and you don't have to fight for them. Yes, And
you know you're in advocacy and I'm in advocacy. We're
fighting that stuff. So we're both people on the same charge.
And you know, I'm a fan of yours because it's
really about helping parents do this and trying to get
(27:14):
the rest of the public that looks at behavior and
infers what's going on in the brain, like the person's lazy, No,
there's an impairment. By the way, you can take tests,
cognitive tests that show that there's an impairment, whether there's
a diagnosis or not. And my program, cognitive Orgonomics from
the inside out's not adhd orgonomicies. These concepts apply to
anybody with an executive function impairment. Anybody.
Speaker 2 (27:37):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, And you know you are reminding me
talking about advocacy my solo cast on the podcast that
published today. Actually, as we're recording, this is about how
we need to provide dignity and humanity to neurodivergent students
because we're robbing them of that when we don't give
(27:59):
them the appropriate accommodation, the adaptive accommodation. We are robbing
them of dignity and humanity and it is traumatizing. Like,
you know, my kid is twenty three and is still
doesn't believe that he could do any higher education or
take any classes that he would not succeed at them.
(28:19):
He has a high aque, he's twice exceptional, he's brilliant,
and yet we are still trying to undo all of
the damage done in our traditional education system by not
looking at it as an impairment and making adaptations instead
of trying to give more time and put on more
(28:40):
pressure and ask for more motivation. Right, and so this
is a soapbox issue for me as well, because we
are harming kids.
Speaker 1 (28:50):
I'd like to share my personal story on this is.
I have adacy, but I have dyslexi, which is really
one of the bigger issues. And when I was in
high school, I couldn't handle chemistry or English much matter,
much less Spanish, so I wasn't I didn't even take
college prep. I was just getting a degree to get out.
I was fortunate enough to be an athlete and to
get on scholar a swimming scholarship. And when I got
(29:12):
to school, I had unlimited tutors. I think the second
semester of my sophomore year I had the highest tutoring
BIL in Indiana University. Wow. And so because I adapted
and I worked with tutors, I had the director oral conversation.
My English teachers are rolling over in the grave to
think that I got my MBA. Not only did I
get it, but I almost I didn't take I didn't
(29:34):
do a paper in my first class because I never
dreamed I get four to oh. But I would have
gotten a four to oh. What's the point comparing and
contrasting where I am. I never thought I would be
able to get a graduate degree much less be successful.
The difference was I had the adaptive accommodations and I
didn't have a problem emotionally going to ask for help.
That can be the difference. And I'm not going to
(29:54):
say that I'm bright, but I think I brought a
few things into this world that's kind of worthwhile. And
there's a lot of untapped talent. I don't personally feel
that ADHD is a gift. It's not something you would
wrap up and give to somebody present. However, people have gifts,
and the issue is add gets in the way. So
we could provide those accommodations so it doesn't get in
the way their natural gifts can come forward. And there's
(30:17):
so many people with ad issue that have contributed a
lot to our world, which goes back to your point,
why are we so cruel and inhumane by making these
suffer only because we can't actually see the impairment. It
really comes down to that, like just because you can't
see a million dollars doesn't mean it doesn't exist.
Speaker 2 (30:33):
Yeah, you can't see it and you don't understand it, yep.
And that's where you know. Teachers have the best of
intentions and they like kids. They want kids to do well.
They wouldn't be a teacher. They just don't get this information.
They're not taught about learning differences, Adhd.
Speaker 1 (30:50):
You make a good point. They're well intended people, but
they're not This isn't common vernacular. They're not taught to
think of it this way. They're not given the support
to do what they need to do. So I'm glad
you brought this up. This is not a knock on them.
They if they knew the answer. But the cool part,
Penny is you'll let me come on and people can
judge this on their own Marat. But the logic of
this makes so much sense to me that I'm hoping
(31:13):
that parents will get this and think about this, watch
this a couple times, go talk to other people about it.
From this vernacular, I think you'll have a really difficult
time arguing against And if somebody like is going to
argue it, it's because they don't want to be confused
the facts because their mind is already made up and
they're just you're not going to get them. But the
people that are on fence go, wow, that actually makes
(31:33):
a lot of sense, and we can change the world
slowly that way.
Speaker 2 (31:37):
Yes, Yes, Jeff tell everybody where they can learn more
about this and your work online.
Speaker 1 (31:43):
My website is digcaching dot com. That's like d ig
like dig a whole coaching dot com. We're talking about
this new theory of motivation was divided by cognive ergonomics
on the inside out. On my page if you click
on services, I do have a program on this. If
you have a teacher that you know or other people
that you think could be beneficient of that as a parent,
(32:04):
if you're interested, you could take the class not required.
It can be very helpful to understand ADC at a
deeper level. But I am trying to get to hr
specialist disability specialist teachers, therapists and coaches because this new
lens changes and refrains how we're looking at things so
that they can be a little bit more effective. And
so I'm just saying that is because I'm trying to
(32:26):
change the world with regard to that. And again, if
I can get to the professionals that help people with ADHD,
we can really make an impact. So again it'stigcaching dot com.
Speaker 2 (32:34):
And I will link that up in the show notes
for everyone at Parenting ADHD and Autism dot com Jeff.
Always a pleasure. I always learn so much, I get inspired,
I feel hopeful after this conversation so many things, and
I really appreciate it.
Speaker 1 (32:49):
Penny, you truly are a thought leader. Like so much
of what you do is just help people out there
that are need There's a lot of other people in
this space that are really more concerned about the dollar,
but you really care about everybody, and I just have
to give it back to you. You're such a resource
for everybody. Thank you for doing what you do.
Speaker 2 (33:05):
Thank you for noticing saying that. Always a pleasure. Well,
I will end here and I will see everybody next time.
Take good care. I see you. You're doing hard and
meaningful work and you don't have to do it alone.
If you found this episode helpful, share it with someone
who needs it and leave a quick review so others
(33:26):
can find this support too. When you're ready for next steps,
the Regulated Kid's Project is here with the tools, coaching,
and community to help you raise a more regulated, resilient child.
Get more info at regulated kids dot com.
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