December 2, 2025 • 29 mins
Silence should never be the price of peace. Today we sit down with speaker, author, counselor, and relationship coach Leslie Vernick to talk about becoming God centered instead of husband centered, the kindness of consequences, and the power of wise community to reduce isolation and strengthen courage. If you’ve wondered whether what you’re living is normal, or if leaders have told you to try harder while you’re shrinking inside, this conversation offers clarity, language, and hope.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
SPEAKER_00 (00:00):
And so I think part of our problem in the church is
(00:02):
one, is we so value the sanctityof marriage, which we should.
I've been married 50 years tothe same man this year.
So I value the sanctity ofmarriage.
I don't treat it lightly.
But we have so prioritized thatover the safety and the sanity
of the people in that marriagethat I think we've in the church
today made an idol of keepingthe marriage together at all
costs at any price, includingthe mental, spiritual, and
(00:24):
physical integrity and health ofthe people in that marriage.
SPEAKER_01 (00:30):
Hi, friend.
If you've ever wondered howGod's word connects with the
messy, broken parts of yourstory, you're in the right
place.
Welcome to Beauty in theBrokenness, where we have honest
conversations about the Bible,our real life struggles, and the
hope God brings for healing.
I'm your host, Teresa Whitey, anauthor, Bible teacher, and
(00:51):
trauma-informed life coach, butmostly a friend and fellow
struggler.
No matter who you are or whereyou've been, I'm inviting you to
encounter the God who is stillcreating beauty right in the
midst of your brokenness.
Well, welcome friends.
I am so excited to introduce youto my guest today.
(01:14):
I'm speaking with LeslieVernick.
Leslie is a popular speaker, anauthor, and a licensed clinical
social worker and a relationshipcoach.
I just have to say personally, Ihave benefited from Leslie's
ministry.
I think it is vital and criticalfor women, especially women in
the church today.
(01:36):
She has written several books.
She is a best-selling author andshe is a wife and mom.
So, Leslie, would you tell us alittle bit more about yourself
and the ministry that you do?
SPEAKER_00 (01:48):
Yeah, so I was a counselor for licensed counselor
for over 45 years.
And probably the reason I gotinto counseling is because of my
own trauma story.
Of course, we all have, youknow, God doesn't waste
anything.
And so I grew up in an abusivehome.
My mom was the abuser.
She was mentally unstable andhad bipolar disorder, of course,
as a child.
I didn't know that.
(02:08):
She left my dad when I waseight.
Um, I was the oldest.
We had, I had a younger brotherand sister.
We lived in a one-bedroomapartment in Chicago, and she
was cruel.
She was, um, she drank a lot.
And so finally, when I was 13,my father got custody of us.
And by that time, he had becomea Christian, remarried, got his
life stable.
And by the time I was 14 and hadto go live with him, I wasn't
(02:30):
real happy about that because Ihad finally figured out how to
work around my mother.
I figured out if I didn't go toschool, I could stay home all
day and clean the house.
And then when she would comehome for work, she would leave
me alone and I could go run thestreets and do what I wanted to
do.
So I was really headed for a badplace.
Um, thank God that my fatherrescued me.
But at a 14 years old, I didn'tappreciate that.
But God did get a hold of myheart later on through the
(02:51):
church and had a greatexperience in the church.
I know not everybody does, but Idid of loving, godly.
It was a tiny little church, andthey were, you know, they showed
me what a family looked like.
They showed me what motheringlooked like.
It was just a wonderfulexperience.
Um, but my mother came back intoour life.
Um, I didn't let her attend mywedding.
She never got to know mychildren.
(03:12):
She was still scary, she wasstill dangerous, she was still
unsafe.
Um, but there was nothing outthere as a Christian.
Now I'm a Christian.
Before I could just hate her andstay away from her, but now I'm
a Christian.
And there's nothing aboutboundaries.
Cloud and Townsend's book hadnot been written.
And I'm going to school forcounseling.
And like, do I forgive mymother?
Do I put her back into my life?
(03:32):
Do I give her access to mychildren?
Is it okay for me to say no?
Am I being selfish?
And so I had to really wrestle alot with that personally and
figure that out.
And so I turned to God's word,and that's where I really began
to see God has a lot to sayabout relationships.
And a lot of what we're teachingis off and wrong.
And so I began to really workthrough my own stuff with
(03:55):
healing my own hurts and alsofiguring out how I was going to
have a relationship, if any,with my mom and what kind of
boundaries I needed to keepmyself, my husband, and my kids
safe from some of herdysfunction.
And so that's where it allbegan.
And so as I began to do somecounseling, I figured I'm not
the only one who's got thisproblem.
There are lots of women in mycounseling practice who don't
(04:16):
know how to set boundaries, feelselfish if they do so, feel
like, you know, God's word aboutlove means we have to endure all
things, meaning we have to putup with dysfunction and sin
because that's what theChristian thing is to do.
And so as I began to reallywrestle with all that, I began
to really understand that Godwas so clear about
(04:38):
relationships.
Every single one of the TenCommandments has something to do
about protecting community andprotecting relationships, our
relationship with God and ourrelationship with one another.
And he's that concerned aboutrelationships that he has a lot
to say about it.
And so I began to really do adeep dive and that began to form
my clinical practice.
And then when I was working onmy book on depression, Teresa,
(04:58):
most of my clients weredepressed females.
And they were all in destructiveabusive marriages.
And I began to wonder is thebest remedy from a Christian
perspective to suck it up andtake antidepressants and Xanax
so that you can have sex withyour husband because he abuses
you?
And is that what God wants?
Is that what honors God?
And so that took me down arabbit hole of marriage and the
(05:21):
whole works over there, andthat's where we are today.
SPEAKER_01 (05:24):
Wow.
Wow.
First of all, thank you forsharing your story.
I I appreciate yourvulnerability and even just the
way that you have expressedthings that so many people can
relate to.
I think, and the questions thatyou've asked, you know, is this
what I'm supposed to do?
What does forgiveness even looklike?
And what are boundaries?
And are they okay?
(05:44):
And oh, I just I am so excitedabout this episode because I
know there people are on theedge of their seat, like, well,
help, help.
There's so many women that Ifeel like have not had maybe
wise instruction, wise counsel.
And I think unfortunately, andyou kind of alluded to this,
(06:04):
that the church at large hasn'talways been a safe place for
women who are in destructive orunhealthy marriages.
And what what are some of thecommon responses you've seen,
some of the things that you'veseen other people experience
when they come to the church andthey say, hey, I'm in this
relationship and this ishappening?
SPEAKER_00 (06:25):
Well, actually, women usually don't say that
because their husband's sittingright next to them and they know
that if they would just actuallytell the truth to the counselor
or the pastor, they would be infor a devastating carbright
home.
So that's part of the problem isthat marriage counseling is not
a safe place to disclose what'sreally happening.
So oftentimes women don't tellthe truth.
Sometimes they don't even tellthe truth to themselves because
(06:47):
it's just so ugly.
Um, and so they don't have aname for it.
They just know that they feelsick inside, they feel confused,
they feel scared, they feelobjectified, they feel
dishonored all the time.
Um, and so they have thesefeelings, but they don't have
the word, they would never usethe word abuse because he didn't
hit them.
And so I think women need somevocabulary for what's really
(07:09):
happening.
We need some descriptors.
But oftentimes the church viewsthis.
I have a really good example ofthis.
So my mom, um, I referenced herearlier, she later came into my
life because she was really,really ill and she needed care.
And so I was going to help her.
But of course, I had to havesome boundaries because she was
(07:30):
unsafe for me.
Um, but the reason she becameill was because her doctor
misdiagnosed her.
So she had chronic fatigue,nagging cough, went to the
doctor and he gave her anantibiotic for bronchitis.
Well, that didn't work.
So then she went back to thedoctor, she had a wheeze, he
gave her an inhaler for asthma.
Well, that didn't work.
Finally, she had an ambulanceride to the doctor, uh, to the
(07:53):
hospital.
And truth was, she didn't havebronchitis.
She didn't have asthma, she hadlung cancer.
And so I think this analogy of alot of marriage counseling is
dealing with the common cold ofmarriage.
They're dealing with thebronchitis symptoms, they're
dealing with asthma symptomsthat are very similar to lung
cancer.
But an antibiotic that treatsbronchitis is totally impotent
(08:15):
against lung cancer.
And so oftentimes when couplesgo to marriage counseling and
they're describing theirsymptoms, it sounds like the
common cold of marriageproblems.
You know, this your sinner, he'sa sinner, let's figure this out.
You need some communications.
You need to, you know, go to aretreat and marriage counseling
and do this and do that.
And that's not going to fix adestructive marriage.
(08:36):
And so sometimes we don't havethe right diagnosis of what the
problem is.
And therefore we can't apply theright remedy to fix it.
And so I think part of ourproblem in the church is one, is
we so value the sanctity ofmarriage, which we should.
I've been married 50 years tothe same man this year.
So I value the sanctity ofmarriage.
I don't treat it lightly.
(08:56):
But we have so prioritized thatover the safety and the sanity
of the people in that marriage,that I think we've in the church
today made an idol of keepingthe marriage together at all
costs at any price, includingthe mental, spiritual, and
physical integrity and health ofthe people in that marriage.
SPEAKER_01 (09:13):
Yes.
I've I've heard that saying, um,you know, the fish don't know,
the water's wet.
And I think what you're whatthat kind of implies is you may
be in an unhealthy or adestructive marriage and not
even know it.
Or maybe you're tellingyourself, oh, everybody's
marriage is like this, or orthis is okay, or this is normal.
(09:34):
Um, what are some of themarkers?
What are what are things thatwomen maybe maybe they feel that
you you described it as kind offeeling sick inside?
Like, how would somebody even bebegin to know, you know what,
this is not a safe place for me.
I I do need to get help.
SPEAKER_00 (09:52):
So I think there's a couple of words that I'm gonna
put out there.
One is that you feel controlled.
Now, this is really hard in aChristian setting because we
believe, or at least most of theconservative Christian believes
in headship and submission.
But headship and submissiondoesn't mean that as a wife, you
get no choices and he gets todecide everything for you.
(10:15):
So in normal marriages, you havea say, you have a voice, you can
argue, you can give youropinion, you can disagree.
When that's not allowed, orthat's punished, or you feel
silenced, shamed, degraded forarguing back or giving your
feedback or not wanting to goalong with an idea that he has,
um, and that's a pattern in yourmarriage, he's misusing headship
(10:39):
to endorse his own selfishness.
And you're misunderstandingsubmission, which is really
you're being coerced, and it'scalled coercive control, and
it's called domestic violenceand abusive.
And so that's one place whereyou start to feel controlled,
like you don't have your no, youdon't have a say, you don't have
a voice, you just have to have ahappy face and smile and go
(11:00):
along with his ideas all of thetime in order for there to be
peace in your home.
So that would be one red flag.
A second red flag would be thatyou feel confused.
Like, I thought we agreed thatyou would call me if you're
gonna be late.
I never said that.
You're trying to control, andyou're like, I thought we agreed
that we would, you know, both beaccountable for how much money
(11:22):
we took out of the ATM.
And then as soon as you confronthim on something, it's a whole
different story.
He didn't say that, you'remisunderstanding, you're making
things up.
And you start to feel likeyou're a little cray cray inside
because there's a lot of thatstuff going on.
So that would be another redflag.
A third red flag is that youjust know he's lying to you.
(11:42):
And that happens a lot, thatthere's deception in big ways,
little ways.
He's not honest.
He said he paid the bill, youfound out he didn't pay the
bill, you said he didn't takemoney out here, he said he took
didn't take money out of theATM.
You found out that he took moneyout of the ATM.
They may not be big lies, butthere are a lot of them.
And you're just feeling unsafethat you can't trust what he
says.
(12:02):
And then another way is that youfeel kind of objectified.
Like I remember a woman sayingto me that she asked her
husband, what could she do tomake their marriage better?
And he said, have more sex andcook better.
And that was like, so do yourwifely role.
It wasn't about how do we talkor how do we communicate better
or how do we connect moredeeply.
(12:24):
It was how do you serve mebetter?
And that was her role as a wife.
And she had no other value tohim other than her doing her
duty.
And so you are sort of in therole of a maid, sex object,
babysitter, uh, wage earner, ifthat's what you're doing.
And you're not a person to love,you're an object to use.
(12:45):
And as long as you are useful,you're valued.
And if you're not useful, you'rediscarded.
And that's also a destructiverelationship.
And I think the last one is ifyou normally and regularly in
your marriage feel diminished,demean, dishonored, you know,
the Bible tells us that we areto honor one another.
And I remember I was speaking ata conference once at the
(13:07):
Southern Baptist Convention, andthey asked me, can you dishonor
someone and it not be abused?
And I would say, not in aregular way.
No, you might dishonor someonein a moment of stupidity or sin
and apologize.
But when you are regularlydishonoring another human being,
an image bearer, then you'redisrespecting the image of God
in them.
(13:28):
And you are hurting them,especially if you have power
over them, like a husband wouldfor a wife or a man over a
woman.
SPEAKER_01 (13:35):
Those are some really, really good markers and
red flags that people can lookfor.
I I've heard you differentiatebetween an unhealthy marriage
and a destructive marriage.
Can you kind of help usunderstand the difference
between those two?
SPEAKER_00 (13:54):
Yeah, I actually don't say it that way, but I it
would certainly apply anunhealthy sinner and a healthy
sinner.
Because the truth is we allmarry sinners and we're sinners.
So there is no marriage withoutsome stress, conflict, hardship,
misunderstandings, hurts, all ofthe above.
I've been married 50 years.
It happens.
Um, and so what's the differencebetween a marriage that has
(14:16):
sinned and you sinned, he sins,and that's what happens, and a
marriage that does the samething in some ways, but becomes
destructive.
And so the difference between ahealthy sinner and an unhealthy
sinner is when a healthy sinnerrecognizes they've done
something that's crossed theline, which we're all capable
of.
We're all capable of an abusiveincident.
And I share a story of when, youknow, growing up in an abusive
(14:39):
home, being abused, I was reallyterrified when I became a new
mom.
I was afraid that I would be anabusive mom like my mom, even
though I was trained.
I was a Christian, I was acounselor.
I didn't think I would.
I thought I might.
And in one moment of justsinfulness, I um, in a fit of
anger, I yanked my little boy.
He was two years old.
(14:59):
We were in a dressing room, apublic dressing room.
I was trying on some newclothes.
I'd finally lost my baby weight.
And of course, little boys donot like sitting in the dressing
room in their stroller for verylong.
And so he got out of a strollerand began throwing a fit and
loud enough that everybody elsein the store could hear it.
And it embarrassed me.
And so I grabbed him by hislittle arm and pulled him to his
feet a little harshly.
And he howled as loud as hecould, Mom, you broke my arm.
(15:25):
And his little elbow wasdangling from his socket.
And I terrified.
So here I was, and I was abused,I abused him in that moment.
I took him, put him in his carseat, drove to the emergency
room, told the doctors what Idid.
I didn't lie.
I went home, I told my husbandwhat I did.
I apologetized to my son.
(15:46):
I got the help I needed to neverrepeat that.
And so that's what I would calla healthy sinner.
It was a serious sin.
And had I continued to do that,I would have permanently harmed
my relationship with my child.
But I didn't continue to dothat.
It woke me up and I'm like, ohmy gosh, I don't want to be like
my mother.
I have to get help to make sureI never do this again.
SPEAKER_01 (16:05):
Right?
SPEAKER_00 (16:06):
Of course he's gonna aggravate me.
Of course he's gonna make memad.
And I am responsible to know howto handle that.
It's not his fault that I actedthat way.
So that's a healthy sinner.
When they mess up, they fess up.
When they mess up, they dealwith it.
They don't keep repeating it andmake excuses for it.
SPEAKER_01 (16:22):
Yes.
SPEAKER_00 (16:23):
So an unhealthy sinner would blame the child,
would say, Well, he was actingup, you know, I couldn't help
it, or I was abused, and that'swhy I do it.
They make all kinds of excusesor they completely deny it.
I didn't do it, it didn'thappen.
You're you're he fell.
You're imagining things.
It's not as bad as you say.
And they'll deflect, they'lldeny, they'll gaslight.
(16:44):
And so that's the differencebecause you can fix things that
you're willing to own, even badthings.
Now, some things in a marriageare not repairable.
If you shoot somebody in amoment of rage, that's the end.
But but some things can berepaired if someone is willing
to own them and deal with themand not repeat them.
(17:04):
And so that's why in marriagecounseling, oftentimes they'll
minimize the sin because you'reboth sinners, but you're very
different sinners.
One's a healthy sinner and one'san unhealthy sinner.
And that unhealthy sinner is notowning their sin, is not dealing
with it, is not admitting it, isnot repenting of it, is blaming
the other person.
And that gets very confusing inmarriage counseling because the
other person isn't a perfectperson.
(17:26):
And so sometimes they willprovoke the other person, or
sometimes they will disappointthe other person.
And so oftentimes pastors andcounselors say, Well, you need
to stop making him so angry, oryou need to have sex with him
more often, or you need to do itthe way he wants you to do it.
And then he wouldn't treat youthat way.
In other words, it's herresponsibility to make sure he
doesn't sin against her, whichis insanity.
SPEAKER_01 (17:46):
And that is where the destruction comes in.
Yeah, because she believes it,she tries.
Right.
Right.
Oh my goodness.
So uh you you alluded to thisearlier why women don't seek
help.
Um, is there are there otherreasons why, besides the fear of
like, oh, if I say something,it's gonna get worse.
(18:07):
Are there other reasons whywomen don't seek help?
SPEAKER_00 (18:10):
I think there's a couple.
I think there's some wrongteaching in the church about a
woman's role and about marriage.
So we have made marriage, asI've said before, I think, sort
of like in Jesus' day, theSabbath was like this holy grail
that, you know, they had allthese rules around the Sabbath,
and Jesus was breaking themright and left, and people were
(18:32):
just incensed about that.
And Jesus said, Hey guys, whichone of you wouldn't break the
Sabbath to rescue your son oreven your animal out of a well
that fell into it?
You're being ridiculous with allthese rules on the Sabbath.
The Sabbath was made for yourwelfare, not to oppress you.
And the same thing in marriage,the marriage was made for our
(18:52):
good, for our benefit, for thesafety of children that come
into a home.
It wasn't made so that someonecan stay in a relationship and
abuse someone without anyconsequences.
And so I think we've made thissacred cow of marriage, and God
values the sanctity of marriage,but not more than the safety and
the sanity of the people in it.
This verse in Malachi, God hatesdivorce, was actually
(19:13):
mistranslated in the King JamesVersion.
It was never translated thatlike that earlier, and it is a
hard verse to translate.
But what it really says, whatdoes God really hate?
Does he hate divorce, or does hehate what causes divorce when a
man treats his wifetreacherously?
That's what God hates, andthat's what the rest of the
verse says.
And so we've taken this phrasethat the King James used: God
(19:35):
hates divorce when a man treatshis wife treacherously.
And we've just used the firstthree words.
God hates all divorce for allreasons, and that's not true.
That's not true, that's notbiblical.
And so sometimes God allowsdivorce, like in Exodus 21,
where a slave wife, the loweston the totem pole of hierarchy
(19:56):
of value in the patriarchalculture, a slave wife, a woman
who's a slave is lowest on thebottom.
And she's married to a man whomarries another woman.
And it says, and if he neglectsher for food, clothing, or
sexual intimacy, she may leaveas a free woman.
So God is saying, hey, if you'reneglected in this marriage,
(20:18):
you're not taken care of, it'sover.
You can leave, and you're noteven a slave anymore.
So God doesn't hate all divorce.
SPEAKER_01 (20:27):
So what does it look like for a woman who's right now
hearing this, maybe for thefirst time, like, wait, that's
that's an option?
I've always been taught Godhates divorce.
I don't have any options.
And she's realizing maybe she'sin an emotionally or physically
abusive or destructiverelationship.
(20:47):
What would be a first step forher to take?
SPEAKER_00 (20:51):
I think the first step is to be honest with
herself.
I mean, healthy people live inreality, they live in truth.
And the first honesty is this ishappening to me.
I am being abused, I am beingdisrespected, discarded, lied
to, neglected, completelyneglected, and we've ignored
(21:12):
that in the church, that wehaven't understood that
abandonment in scripture is theneglecting of keeping the
marriage vows.
And adultery in scripture isn'tjust when a man has sexual
intercourse with another woman.
Adultery is used as a metaphorthroughout scripture for the
term unfaithfulness.
And so I think if we understandthat and we begin to do our own
(21:33):
work instead of defaulting ourown biblical literacy to someone
else telling me what the Biblesays, I have to figure this out
for myself.
I have to read the Bible, I haveto look at God's word, I have to
pray and ask him.
And then understand that as Iget stronger and I'm not willing
to be an unhealthy sinner myselfanymore.
I'm willing, I'm gonna be asinner, but I'm gonna get
(21:53):
healthy and I'm gonna learn tospeak the truth in love, and I'm
gonna learn to have someboundaries, and I'm gonna learn
to love my husband well.
So this is called the helpmate.
But a helpmate biblically isn'tan enabler.
And that's sort of what churcheshave fostered is that you just
keep loving him and putting upwith his sin and forgiving him
(22:16):
70 times seven with noconsequences.
And that isn't loving anyone.
It wouldn't be in child rearing.
It would, it wouldn't be lovingto let your child kick you
because he's angry and you justkeep letting him kick you.
Loving him would be, hey, youcan't do that to me anymore.
And you're gonna sit in yourroom for a while.
Now we can't treat our husbandlike a child, but there are
consequences, sometimespermanent consequences for sin.
(22:36):
And when we've cut that optionoff for wives because love
covers a multitude of sins andwe have to forgive and forbear
and use all those scripturalwords that make us feel scared
and guilty to do those normal,appropriate things, then we
don't have any leverage to helpour husband wake up.
And sometimes good boundariesand strong consequences can help
(22:57):
a sinner notice that if I keepdoing this, I'm gonna lose
everything that's important tome.
Yes.
SPEAKER_01 (23:04):
And you said the first step is to be honest with
yourself.
And I think that's scary for alot of people.
I think it's frightening, firstof all, to admit this is
happening.
We see ourselves as weak, or wesee ourselves as the problem, or
it's our fault.
Another reason it's scary isbecause we think, well, if I act
(23:24):
on this, it could get worsebefore it gets better.
And and so I think sometimeswomen stay in a marriage that's
not healthy and that's not safejust because it's quote unquote
easier.
I don't know.
Well, what would you say to thatwoman?
SPEAKER_00 (23:40):
I would say, you're not alone.
You're not alone.
And I think that one of the umfaults that we as older women in
the church and the church itselfhas done is not helped women
fully move into adulthood.
So part of moving into I havethree grandchildren, and so part
(24:02):
of I was female grandchildren,and I say to them, you know,
part of being a grown-up is thatyou are able to support
yourself, that you are able totake care of yourself.
That's my job as a mom is toteach you not to need me.
That's my job is to teach younot to need me for you to be a
fully functioning adult.
And so if we think about littlegirls in church and their little
(24:24):
furly dresses, and we say, Oh,what do you want to be when you
grow up?
And she says, I just want to bea mommy, and we go, Oh, that's
so cute.
We would never say that for alittle boy who's I just want to
be a daddy.
We wouldn't say that.
We would say, Well, that'sgreat, but what else?
What else?
But we don't say that for littlegirls.
And so there's nothing, there'sa noble thing to be a mommy.
(24:45):
It's a noble thing to be adaddy.
But you also have to be aperson, a grown-up adult that's
capable of taking care ofyourself.
And so because we haven't done agood job at teaching our female
Christian women to say, I've gotto keep up with my degree, I
have to finish my college or getsome sort of training so that if
(25:08):
I find out that my husband isnot capable of being a good
provider, a good husband, a goodfather, he's dangerous, he's
scary, he's unreliable.
I am capable of taking care ofus versus I'm stuck because I
have no other options.
And that's sort of where we'veallowed ourselves to be.
(25:30):
And I don't think that that's agood thing.
So I would say to a woman who'slistening and saying, don't
shame yourself for it.
Just be honest with yourself.
Wow.
So maybe this is my time.
Instead of trying to, so I'mhonest with myself.
I'm in a destructive marriage.
That's step one.
Step two is reorienting yourpriorities.
So instead of being a God,instead of being a
(25:51):
husband-centered or amarriage-centered woman, you're
going to shift into being aGod-centered woman because
that's idolatry when you've putyour husband as your source.
He is not your source, he's yourhusband.
God is your source.
And so as long as your husband'syour source, then you're going
to be bending into him, whateverhe needs, whatever he wants,
whatever he says.
When you put God as your source,then you're listening to your
(26:14):
true source.
You can still serve yourhusband, but he's not your
source.
So that if he rejects you ordoesn't like you, it's not as
devastating as if when he's yoursource, right?
And then you begin to prepare,like, okay, if this marriage
doesn't last, because it'slooking like he's not going to
change, and if I get healthier,I'm going to probably have
(26:36):
stronger boundaries against thissomeday.
Then what do I need to do now tobegin to prepare myself for the
possibility of having to supportmy kids?
And start taking online classes,start going back to college,
start figuring out what you aregood at, and start working on
that instead of pouring all yourenergy into trying to change
(26:56):
him.
It's not possible for you tochange him.
It's only possible for you towork on you.
SPEAKER_01 (27:02):
Those are such practical things for women to
hear and to put into practice.
So I appreciate those thoughts.
You do not want to miss the restof my conversation with Leslie.
(27:25):
She's gonna talk about thekindness of consequences, the
courage to get stronger, and thepower of community, among other
things.
Thanks for hanging out with metoday on Beauty and the
Brokenness.
To find anything I mentioned onthe episode, go to
TeresaWiting.com/slash listen,which is where you can find all
the show notes.
(27:46):
I will have links to Leslie, herministry, her books, her
website, her podcast, all theplaces that she shows up.
As she mentioned, she has acommunity of women that are
ready to help others in thissituation.
Now you may be listening andthinking, you know, I've had
some trauma in my life, maybemarital or maybe not.
(28:07):
I want to invite you to considerthe Hope Restore Trauma
Intensive.
I host this intensive with twoof my dear friends and
therapists, Ann Simmons andBrenda Stewart.
What I love about the HopeRestore Trauma Intensive is that
we combine clinical practiceswith biblical truth to create a
unique and safe experience.
(28:30):
Healing is possible, friend.
Click the link in the show notesto learn more.
In closing, I want to leave youwith this prayer from number
six, 24 to 26.
The Lord bless you and keep you.
The Lord make his face shine onyou and be gracious to you.
The Lord turn his face towardyou and give you peace.
And so I think part of our problem in the church is
(00:02):
one, is we so value the sanctityof marriage, which we should.
I've been married 50 years tothe same man this year.
So I value the sanctity ofmarriage.
I don't treat it lightly.
But we have so prioritized thatover the safety and the sanity
of the people in that marriagethat I think we've in the church
today made an idol of keepingthe marriage together at all
costs at any price, includingthe mental, spiritual, and
(00:24):
physical integrity and health ofthe people in that marriage.
SPEAKER_01 (00:30):
Hi, friend.
If you've ever wondered howGod's word connects with the
messy, broken parts of yourstory, you're in the right
place.
Welcome to Beauty in theBrokenness, where we have honest
conversations about the Bible,our real life struggles, and the
hope God brings for healing.
I'm your host, Teresa Whitey, anauthor, Bible teacher, and
(00:51):
trauma-informed life coach, butmostly a friend and fellow
struggler.
No matter who you are or whereyou've been, I'm inviting you to
encounter the God who is stillcreating beauty right in the
midst of your brokenness.
Well, welcome friends.
I am so excited to introduce youto my guest today.
(01:14):
I'm speaking with LeslieVernick.
Leslie is a popular speaker, anauthor, and a licensed clinical
social worker and a relationshipcoach.
I just have to say personally, Ihave benefited from Leslie's
ministry.
I think it is vital and criticalfor women, especially women in
the church today.
(01:36):
She has written several books.
She is a best-selling author andshe is a wife and mom.
So, Leslie, would you tell us alittle bit more about yourself
and the ministry that you do?
SPEAKER_00 (01:48):
Yeah, so I was a counselor for licensed counselor
for over 45 years.
And probably the reason I gotinto counseling is because of my
own trauma story.
Of course, we all have, youknow, God doesn't waste
anything.
And so I grew up in an abusivehome.
My mom was the abuser.
She was mentally unstable andhad bipolar disorder, of course,
as a child.
I didn't know that.
(02:08):
She left my dad when I waseight.
Um, I was the oldest.
We had, I had a younger brotherand sister.
We lived in a one-bedroomapartment in Chicago, and she
was cruel.
She was, um, she drank a lot.
And so finally, when I was 13,my father got custody of us.
And by that time, he had becomea Christian, remarried, got his
life stable.
And by the time I was 14 and hadto go live with him, I wasn't
(02:30):
real happy about that because Ihad finally figured out how to
work around my mother.
I figured out if I didn't go toschool, I could stay home all
day and clean the house.
And then when she would comehome for work, she would leave
me alone and I could go run thestreets and do what I wanted to
do.
So I was really headed for a badplace.
Um, thank God that my fatherrescued me.
But at a 14 years old, I didn'tappreciate that.
But God did get a hold of myheart later on through the
(02:51):
church and had a greatexperience in the church.
I know not everybody does, but Idid of loving, godly.
It was a tiny little church, andthey were, you know, they showed
me what a family looked like.
They showed me what motheringlooked like.
It was just a wonderfulexperience.
Um, but my mother came back intoour life.
Um, I didn't let her attend mywedding.
She never got to know mychildren.
(03:12):
She was still scary, she wasstill dangerous, she was still
unsafe.
Um, but there was nothing outthere as a Christian.
Now I'm a Christian.
Before I could just hate her andstay away from her, but now I'm
a Christian.
And there's nothing aboutboundaries.
Cloud and Townsend's book hadnot been written.
And I'm going to school forcounseling.
And like, do I forgive mymother?
Do I put her back into my life?
(03:32):
Do I give her access to mychildren?
Is it okay for me to say no?
Am I being selfish?
And so I had to really wrestle alot with that personally and
figure that out.
And so I turned to God's word,and that's where I really began
to see God has a lot to sayabout relationships.
And a lot of what we're teachingis off and wrong.
And so I began to really workthrough my own stuff with
(03:55):
healing my own hurts and alsofiguring out how I was going to
have a relationship, if any,with my mom and what kind of
boundaries I needed to keepmyself, my husband, and my kids
safe from some of herdysfunction.
And so that's where it allbegan.
And so as I began to do somecounseling, I figured I'm not
the only one who's got thisproblem.
There are lots of women in mycounseling practice who don't
(04:16):
know how to set boundaries, feelselfish if they do so, feel
like, you know, God's word aboutlove means we have to endure all
things, meaning we have to putup with dysfunction and sin
because that's what theChristian thing is to do.
And so as I began to reallywrestle with all that, I began
to really understand that Godwas so clear about
(04:38):
relationships.
Every single one of the TenCommandments has something to do
about protecting community andprotecting relationships, our
relationship with God and ourrelationship with one another.
And he's that concerned aboutrelationships that he has a lot
to say about it.
And so I began to really do adeep dive and that began to form
my clinical practice.
And then when I was working onmy book on depression, Teresa,
(04:58):
most of my clients weredepressed females.
And they were all in destructiveabusive marriages.
And I began to wonder is thebest remedy from a Christian
perspective to suck it up andtake antidepressants and Xanax
so that you can have sex withyour husband because he abuses
you?
And is that what God wants?
Is that what honors God?
And so that took me down arabbit hole of marriage and the
(05:21):
whole works over there, andthat's where we are today.
SPEAKER_01 (05:24):
Wow.
Wow.
First of all, thank you forsharing your story.
I I appreciate yourvulnerability and even just the
way that you have expressedthings that so many people can
relate to.
I think, and the questions thatyou've asked, you know, is this
what I'm supposed to do?
What does forgiveness even looklike?
And what are boundaries?
And are they okay?
(05:44):
And oh, I just I am so excitedabout this episode because I
know there people are on theedge of their seat, like, well,
help, help.
There's so many women that Ifeel like have not had maybe
wise instruction, wise counsel.
And I think unfortunately, andyou kind of alluded to this,
(06:04):
that the church at large hasn'talways been a safe place for
women who are in destructive orunhealthy marriages.
And what what are some of thecommon responses you've seen,
some of the things that you'veseen other people experience
when they come to the church andthey say, hey, I'm in this
relationship and this ishappening?
SPEAKER_00 (06:25):
Well, actually, women usually don't say that
because their husband's sittingright next to them and they know
that if they would just actuallytell the truth to the counselor
or the pastor, they would be infor a devastating carbright
home.
So that's part of the problem isthat marriage counseling is not
a safe place to disclose what'sreally happening.
So oftentimes women don't tellthe truth.
Sometimes they don't even tellthe truth to themselves because
(06:47):
it's just so ugly.
Um, and so they don't have aname for it.
They just know that they feelsick inside, they feel confused,
they feel scared, they feelobjectified, they feel
dishonored all the time.
Um, and so they have thesefeelings, but they don't have
the word, they would never usethe word abuse because he didn't
hit them.
And so I think women need somevocabulary for what's really
(07:09):
happening.
We need some descriptors.
But oftentimes the church viewsthis.
I have a really good example ofthis.
So my mom, um, I referenced herearlier, she later came into my
life because she was really,really ill and she needed care.
And so I was going to help her.
But of course, I had to havesome boundaries because she was
(07:30):
unsafe for me.
Um, but the reason she becameill was because her doctor
misdiagnosed her.
So she had chronic fatigue,nagging cough, went to the
doctor and he gave her anantibiotic for bronchitis.
Well, that didn't work.
So then she went back to thedoctor, she had a wheeze, he
gave her an inhaler for asthma.
Well, that didn't work.
Finally, she had an ambulanceride to the doctor, uh, to the
(07:53):
hospital.
And truth was, she didn't havebronchitis.
She didn't have asthma, she hadlung cancer.
And so I think this analogy of alot of marriage counseling is
dealing with the common cold ofmarriage.
They're dealing with thebronchitis symptoms, they're
dealing with asthma symptomsthat are very similar to lung
cancer.
But an antibiotic that treatsbronchitis is totally impotent
(08:15):
against lung cancer.
And so oftentimes when couplesgo to marriage counseling and
they're describing theirsymptoms, it sounds like the
common cold of marriageproblems.
You know, this your sinner, he'sa sinner, let's figure this out.
You need some communications.
You need to, you know, go to aretreat and marriage counseling
and do this and do that.
And that's not going to fix adestructive marriage.
(08:36):
And so sometimes we don't havethe right diagnosis of what the
problem is.
And therefore we can't apply theright remedy to fix it.
And so I think part of ourproblem in the church is one, is
we so value the sanctity ofmarriage, which we should.
I've been married 50 years tothe same man this year.
So I value the sanctity ofmarriage.
I don't treat it lightly.
(08:56):
But we have so prioritized thatover the safety and the sanity
of the people in that marriage,that I think we've in the church
today made an idol of keepingthe marriage together at all
costs at any price, includingthe mental, spiritual, and
physical integrity and health ofthe people in that marriage.
SPEAKER_01 (09:13):
Yes.
I've I've heard that saying, um,you know, the fish don't know,
the water's wet.
And I think what you're whatthat kind of implies is you may
be in an unhealthy or adestructive marriage and not
even know it.
Or maybe you're tellingyourself, oh, everybody's
marriage is like this, or orthis is okay, or this is normal.
(09:34):
Um, what are some of themarkers?
What are what are things thatwomen maybe maybe they feel that
you you described it as kind offeeling sick inside?
Like, how would somebody even bebegin to know, you know what,
this is not a safe place for me.
I I do need to get help.
SPEAKER_00 (09:52):
So I think there's a couple of words that I'm gonna
put out there.
One is that you feel controlled.
Now, this is really hard in aChristian setting because we
believe, or at least most of theconservative Christian believes
in headship and submission.
But headship and submissiondoesn't mean that as a wife, you
get no choices and he gets todecide everything for you.
(10:15):
So in normal marriages, you havea say, you have a voice, you can
argue, you can give youropinion, you can disagree.
When that's not allowed, orthat's punished, or you feel
silenced, shamed, degraded forarguing back or giving your
feedback or not wanting to goalong with an idea that he has,
um, and that's a pattern in yourmarriage, he's misusing headship
(10:39):
to endorse his own selfishness.
And you're misunderstandingsubmission, which is really
you're being coerced, and it'scalled coercive control, and
it's called domestic violenceand abusive.
And so that's one place whereyou start to feel controlled,
like you don't have your no, youdon't have a say, you don't have
a voice, you just have to have ahappy face and smile and go
(11:00):
along with his ideas all of thetime in order for there to be
peace in your home.
So that would be one red flag.
A second red flag would be thatyou feel confused.
Like, I thought we agreed thatyou would call me if you're
gonna be late.
I never said that.
You're trying to control, andyou're like, I thought we agreed
that we would, you know, both beaccountable for how much money
(11:22):
we took out of the ATM.
And then as soon as you confronthim on something, it's a whole
different story.
He didn't say that, you'remisunderstanding, you're making
things up.
And you start to feel likeyou're a little cray cray inside
because there's a lot of thatstuff going on.
So that would be another redflag.
A third red flag is that youjust know he's lying to you.
(11:42):
And that happens a lot, thatthere's deception in big ways,
little ways.
He's not honest.
He said he paid the bill, youfound out he didn't pay the
bill, you said he didn't takemoney out here, he said he took
didn't take money out of theATM.
You found out that he took moneyout of the ATM.
They may not be big lies, butthere are a lot of them.
And you're just feeling unsafethat you can't trust what he
says.
(12:02):
And then another way is that youfeel kind of objectified.
Like I remember a woman sayingto me that she asked her
husband, what could she do tomake their marriage better?
And he said, have more sex andcook better.
And that was like, so do yourwifely role.
It wasn't about how do we talkor how do we communicate better
or how do we connect moredeeply.
(12:24):
It was how do you serve mebetter?
And that was her role as a wife.
And she had no other value tohim other than her doing her
duty.
And so you are sort of in therole of a maid, sex object,
babysitter, uh, wage earner, ifthat's what you're doing.
And you're not a person to love,you're an object to use.
(12:45):
And as long as you are useful,you're valued.
And if you're not useful, you'rediscarded.
And that's also a destructiverelationship.
And I think the last one is ifyou normally and regularly in
your marriage feel diminished,demean, dishonored, you know,
the Bible tells us that we areto honor one another.
And I remember I was speaking ata conference once at the
(13:07):
Southern Baptist Convention, andthey asked me, can you dishonor
someone and it not be abused?
And I would say, not in aregular way.
No, you might dishonor someonein a moment of stupidity or sin
and apologize.
But when you are regularlydishonoring another human being,
an image bearer, then you'redisrespecting the image of God
in them.
(13:28):
And you are hurting them,especially if you have power
over them, like a husband wouldfor a wife or a man over a
woman.
SPEAKER_01 (13:35):
Those are some really, really good markers and
red flags that people can lookfor.
I I've heard you differentiatebetween an unhealthy marriage
and a destructive marriage.
Can you kind of help usunderstand the difference
between those two?
SPEAKER_00 (13:54):
Yeah, I actually don't say it that way, but I it
would certainly apply anunhealthy sinner and a healthy
sinner.
Because the truth is we allmarry sinners and we're sinners.
So there is no marriage withoutsome stress, conflict, hardship,
misunderstandings, hurts, all ofthe above.
I've been married 50 years.
It happens.
Um, and so what's the differencebetween a marriage that has
(14:16):
sinned and you sinned, he sins,and that's what happens, and a
marriage that does the samething in some ways, but becomes
destructive.
And so the difference between ahealthy sinner and an unhealthy
sinner is when a healthy sinnerrecognizes they've done
something that's crossed theline, which we're all capable
of.
We're all capable of an abusiveincident.
And I share a story of when, youknow, growing up in an abusive
(14:39):
home, being abused, I was reallyterrified when I became a new
mom.
I was afraid that I would be anabusive mom like my mom, even
though I was trained.
I was a Christian, I was acounselor.
I didn't think I would.
I thought I might.
And in one moment of justsinfulness, I um, in a fit of
anger, I yanked my little boy.
He was two years old.
(14:59):
We were in a dressing room, apublic dressing room.
I was trying on some newclothes.
I'd finally lost my baby weight.
And of course, little boys donot like sitting in the dressing
room in their stroller for verylong.
And so he got out of a strollerand began throwing a fit and
loud enough that everybody elsein the store could hear it.
And it embarrassed me.
And so I grabbed him by hislittle arm and pulled him to his
feet a little harshly.
And he howled as loud as hecould, Mom, you broke my arm.
(15:25):
And his little elbow wasdangling from his socket.
And I terrified.
So here I was, and I was abused,I abused him in that moment.
I took him, put him in his carseat, drove to the emergency
room, told the doctors what Idid.
I didn't lie.
I went home, I told my husbandwhat I did.
I apologetized to my son.
(15:46):
I got the help I needed to neverrepeat that.
And so that's what I would calla healthy sinner.
It was a serious sin.
And had I continued to do that,I would have permanently harmed
my relationship with my child.
But I didn't continue to dothat.
It woke me up and I'm like, ohmy gosh, I don't want to be like
my mother.
I have to get help to make sureI never do this again.
SPEAKER_01 (16:05):
Right?
SPEAKER_00 (16:06):
Of course he's gonna aggravate me.
Of course he's gonna make memad.
And I am responsible to know howto handle that.
It's not his fault that I actedthat way.
So that's a healthy sinner.
When they mess up, they fess up.
When they mess up, they dealwith it.
They don't keep repeating it andmake excuses for it.
SPEAKER_01 (16:22):
Yes.
SPEAKER_00 (16:23):
So an unhealthy sinner would blame the child,
would say, Well, he was actingup, you know, I couldn't help
it, or I was abused, and that'swhy I do it.
They make all kinds of excusesor they completely deny it.
I didn't do it, it didn'thappen.
You're you're he fell.
You're imagining things.
It's not as bad as you say.
And they'll deflect, they'lldeny, they'll gaslight.
(16:44):
And so that's the differencebecause you can fix things that
you're willing to own, even badthings.
Now, some things in a marriageare not repairable.
If you shoot somebody in amoment of rage, that's the end.
But but some things can berepaired if someone is willing
to own them and deal with themand not repeat them.
(17:04):
And so that's why in marriagecounseling, oftentimes they'll
minimize the sin because you'reboth sinners, but you're very
different sinners.
One's a healthy sinner and one'san unhealthy sinner.
And that unhealthy sinner is notowning their sin, is not dealing
with it, is not admitting it, isnot repenting of it, is blaming
the other person.
And that gets very confusing inmarriage counseling because the
other person isn't a perfectperson.
(17:26):
And so sometimes they willprovoke the other person, or
sometimes they will disappointthe other person.
And so oftentimes pastors andcounselors say, Well, you need
to stop making him so angry, oryou need to have sex with him
more often, or you need to do itthe way he wants you to do it.
And then he wouldn't treat youthat way.
In other words, it's herresponsibility to make sure he
doesn't sin against her, whichis insanity.
SPEAKER_01 (17:46):
And that is where the destruction comes in.
Yeah, because she believes it,she tries.
Right.
Right.
Oh my goodness.
So uh you you alluded to thisearlier why women don't seek
help.
Um, is there are there otherreasons why, besides the fear of
like, oh, if I say something,it's gonna get worse.
(18:07):
Are there other reasons whywomen don't seek help?
SPEAKER_00 (18:10):
I think there's a couple.
I think there's some wrongteaching in the church about a
woman's role and about marriage.
So we have made marriage, asI've said before, I think, sort
of like in Jesus' day, theSabbath was like this holy grail
that, you know, they had allthese rules around the Sabbath,
and Jesus was breaking themright and left, and people were
(18:32):
just incensed about that.
And Jesus said, Hey guys, whichone of you wouldn't break the
Sabbath to rescue your son oreven your animal out of a well
that fell into it?
You're being ridiculous with allthese rules on the Sabbath.
The Sabbath was made for yourwelfare, not to oppress you.
And the same thing in marriage,the marriage was made for our
(18:52):
good, for our benefit, for thesafety of children that come
into a home.
It wasn't made so that someonecan stay in a relationship and
abuse someone without anyconsequences.
And so I think we've made thissacred cow of marriage, and God
values the sanctity of marriage,but not more than the safety and
the sanity of the people in it.
This verse in Malachi, God hatesdivorce, was actually
(19:13):
mistranslated in the King JamesVersion.
It was never translated thatlike that earlier, and it is a
hard verse to translate.
But what it really says, whatdoes God really hate?
Does he hate divorce, or does hehate what causes divorce when a
man treats his wifetreacherously?
That's what God hates, andthat's what the rest of the
verse says.
And so we've taken this phrasethat the King James used: God
(19:35):
hates divorce when a man treatshis wife treacherously.
And we've just used the firstthree words.
God hates all divorce for allreasons, and that's not true.
That's not true, that's notbiblical.
And so sometimes God allowsdivorce, like in Exodus 21,
where a slave wife, the loweston the totem pole of hierarchy
(19:56):
of value in the patriarchalculture, a slave wife, a woman
who's a slave is lowest on thebottom.
And she's married to a man whomarries another woman.
And it says, and if he neglectsher for food, clothing, or
sexual intimacy, she may leaveas a free woman.
So God is saying, hey, if you'reneglected in this marriage,
(20:18):
you're not taken care of, it'sover.
You can leave, and you're noteven a slave anymore.
So God doesn't hate all divorce.
SPEAKER_01 (20:27):
So what does it look like for a woman who's right now
hearing this, maybe for thefirst time, like, wait, that's
that's an option?
I've always been taught Godhates divorce.
I don't have any options.
And she's realizing maybe she'sin an emotionally or physically
abusive or destructiverelationship.
(20:47):
What would be a first step forher to take?
SPEAKER_00 (20:51):
I think the first step is to be honest with
herself.
I mean, healthy people live inreality, they live in truth.
And the first honesty is this ishappening to me.
I am being abused, I am beingdisrespected, discarded, lied
to, neglected, completelyneglected, and we've ignored
(21:12):
that in the church, that wehaven't understood that
abandonment in scripture is theneglecting of keeping the
marriage vows.
And adultery in scripture isn'tjust when a man has sexual
intercourse with another woman.
Adultery is used as a metaphorthroughout scripture for the
term unfaithfulness.
And so I think if we understandthat and we begin to do our own
(21:33):
work instead of defaulting ourown biblical literacy to someone
else telling me what the Biblesays, I have to figure this out
for myself.
I have to read the Bible, I haveto look at God's word, I have to
pray and ask him.
And then understand that as Iget stronger and I'm not willing
to be an unhealthy sinner myselfanymore.
I'm willing, I'm gonna be asinner, but I'm gonna get
(21:53):
healthy and I'm gonna learn tospeak the truth in love, and I'm
gonna learn to have someboundaries, and I'm gonna learn
to love my husband well.
So this is called the helpmate.
But a helpmate biblically isn'tan enabler.
And that's sort of what churcheshave fostered is that you just
keep loving him and putting upwith his sin and forgiving him
(22:16):
70 times seven with noconsequences.
And that isn't loving anyone.
It wouldn't be in child rearing.
It would, it wouldn't be lovingto let your child kick you
because he's angry and you justkeep letting him kick you.
Loving him would be, hey, youcan't do that to me anymore.
And you're gonna sit in yourroom for a while.
Now we can't treat our husbandlike a child, but there are
consequences, sometimespermanent consequences for sin.
(22:36):
And when we've cut that optionoff for wives because love
covers a multitude of sins andwe have to forgive and forbear
and use all those scripturalwords that make us feel scared
and guilty to do those normal,appropriate things, then we
don't have any leverage to helpour husband wake up.
And sometimes good boundariesand strong consequences can help
(22:57):
a sinner notice that if I keepdoing this, I'm gonna lose
everything that's important tome.
Yes.
SPEAKER_01 (23:04):
And you said the first step is to be honest with
yourself.
And I think that's scary for alot of people.
I think it's frightening, firstof all, to admit this is
happening.
We see ourselves as weak, or wesee ourselves as the problem, or
it's our fault.
Another reason it's scary isbecause we think, well, if I act
(23:24):
on this, it could get worsebefore it gets better.
And and so I think sometimeswomen stay in a marriage that's
not healthy and that's not safejust because it's quote unquote
easier.
I don't know.
Well, what would you say to thatwoman?
SPEAKER_00 (23:40):
I would say, you're not alone.
You're not alone.
And I think that one of the umfaults that we as older women in
the church and the church itselfhas done is not helped women
fully move into adulthood.
So part of moving into I havethree grandchildren, and so part
(24:02):
of I was female grandchildren,and I say to them, you know,
part of being a grown-up is thatyou are able to support
yourself, that you are able totake care of yourself.
That's my job as a mom is toteach you not to need me.
That's my job is to teach younot to need me for you to be a
fully functioning adult.
And so if we think about littlegirls in church and their little
(24:24):
furly dresses, and we say, Oh,what do you want to be when you
grow up?
And she says, I just want to bea mommy, and we go, Oh, that's
so cute.
We would never say that for alittle boy who's I just want to
be a daddy.
We wouldn't say that.
We would say, Well, that'sgreat, but what else?
What else?
But we don't say that for littlegirls.
And so there's nothing, there'sa noble thing to be a mommy.
(24:45):
It's a noble thing to be adaddy.
But you also have to be aperson, a grown-up adult that's
capable of taking care ofyourself.
And so because we haven't done agood job at teaching our female
Christian women to say, I've gotto keep up with my degree, I
have to finish my college or getsome sort of training so that if
(25:08):
I find out that my husband isnot capable of being a good
provider, a good husband, a goodfather, he's dangerous, he's
scary, he's unreliable.
I am capable of taking care ofus versus I'm stuck because I
have no other options.
And that's sort of where we'veallowed ourselves to be.
(25:30):
And I don't think that that's agood thing.
So I would say to a woman who'slistening and saying, don't
shame yourself for it.
Just be honest with yourself.
Wow.
So maybe this is my time.
Instead of trying to, so I'mhonest with myself.
I'm in a destructive marriage.
That's step one.
Step two is reorienting yourpriorities.
So instead of being a God,instead of being a
(25:51):
husband-centered or amarriage-centered woman, you're
going to shift into being aGod-centered woman because
that's idolatry when you've putyour husband as your source.
He is not your source, he's yourhusband.
God is your source.
And so as long as your husband'syour source, then you're going
to be bending into him, whateverhe needs, whatever he wants,
whatever he says.
When you put God as your source,then you're listening to your
(26:14):
true source.
You can still serve yourhusband, but he's not your
source.
So that if he rejects you ordoesn't like you, it's not as
devastating as if when he's yoursource, right?
And then you begin to prepare,like, okay, if this marriage
doesn't last, because it'slooking like he's not going to
change, and if I get healthier,I'm going to probably have
(26:36):
stronger boundaries against thissomeday.
Then what do I need to do now tobegin to prepare myself for the
possibility of having to supportmy kids?
And start taking online classes,start going back to college,
start figuring out what you aregood at, and start working on
that instead of pouring all yourenergy into trying to change
(26:56):
him.
It's not possible for you tochange him.
It's only possible for you towork on you.
SPEAKER_01 (27:02):
Those are such practical things for women to
hear and to put into practice.
So I appreciate those thoughts.
You do not want to miss the restof my conversation with Leslie.
(27:25):
She's gonna talk about thekindness of consequences, the
courage to get stronger, and thepower of community, among other
things.
Thanks for hanging out with metoday on Beauty and the
Brokenness.
To find anything I mentioned onthe episode, go to
TeresaWiting.com/slash listen,which is where you can find all
the show notes.
(27:46):
I will have links to Leslie, herministry, her books, her
website, her podcast, all theplaces that she shows up.
As she mentioned, she has acommunity of women that are
ready to help others in thissituation.
Now you may be listening andthinking, you know, I've had
some trauma in my life, maybemarital or maybe not.
(28:07):
I want to invite you to considerthe Hope Restore Trauma
Intensive.
I host this intensive with twoof my dear friends and
therapists, Ann Simmons andBrenda Stewart.
What I love about the HopeRestore Trauma Intensive is that
we combine clinical practiceswith biblical truth to create a
unique and safe experience.
(28:30):
Healing is possible, friend.
Click the link in the show notesto learn more.
In closing, I want to leave youwith this prayer from number
six, 24 to 26.
The Lord bless you and keep you.
The Lord make his face shine onyou and be gracious to you.
The Lord turn his face towardyou and give you peace.
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