September 23, 2025 • 30 mins
What if your story doesn't begin with brokenness, but with beauty? Curt Thompson, MD returns to challenge our fundamental understanding of the gospel narrative, reminding us that Genesis 1 - not Genesis 3 - is where our story truly begins. This profound conversation reveals how recognizing our original design as beings created for beauty and relationship can transform our approach to healing from trauma. If you haven't heard Part 1 yet, you can listen to it here.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Some of us think that the gospel begins in Genesis 3,
that this is where the Biblestarts.
It starts with like we'rebroken people, right, that's how
it starts, right.
And it turns out the Bibleactually begins in the beginning
and not like three chapters inRight right.
So, this is important for us torecognize that for our
listeners, who are like feelinglike we're being buried in our
(00:23):
own story of trauma, like it isimportant for us to hear that
your story began with beauty andgoodness and that has not
changed.
Speaker 2 (00:37):
Today I'm continuing my conversation with Dr Kurt
Thompson.
Last week he shared theimportance of what it means to
be seen how storytelling helpsus heal, and he also shared a
beautiful perspective on thestory of the bleeding woman.
If you haven't heard part oneyet, you've got to go back and
listen to that first.
Welcome to Beauty and theBrokenness, where we have honest
(01:01):
conversations about the Bible,our real-life struggles and the
hope God brings for healing.
I'm your host, teresa Whiting,an author, bible teacher and
trauma-informed life coach, butmostly a friend and fellow
struggler.
No matter who you are or whereyou've been, I'm inviting you to
encounter the God of rescue,redemption and restoration.
(01:24):
You to encounter the God ofrescue, redemption and
restoration, the God who isstill creating beauty right in
the midst of your brokenness.
Speaker 1 (01:32):
This whole notion of telling our stories in this way
is what it means to be human.
It's not, oh, the thing that Ihave to do or the only option
that I have in order for me tobe healed.
Right, the woman with thebleeding problem?
The telling of her story wasnot just well, this is the only
option Jesus is giving me inorder for me to be fully healed.
(01:52):
No, he's turning her into theperson that she was to have been
from before the foundation ofthe world the telling of her
story.
And so this is risky businesswhen evil doesn't want us doing
this.
This was the mission for Adamand Eve in Genesis, chapters one
and two.
We get to chapter three.
(02:13):
We're going to.
Evil wants to corrupt thestorytelling mechanism, not just
as a story, the storytellingmechanism, how we tell it, and
so it is hard to do this, and itis the most glorious thing that
we will do, and so a simple wayto be would be like okay, can
we think of one person that youtrust enough, not that you trust
(02:34):
comprehensively.
Nobody is comprehensivelytrustworthy.
I'm not.
Do I trust enough to say Iwould really love I have a Bible
study from Teresa.
I would love for you to do thiswith me, and could we do this
and tell our stories to eachother?
One person, one person.
Can I take that Bible study andlet the Bible study be a guide,
(02:57):
right, so I can have ago-between, we can have help
along the way.
We can do this.
Can I tell you my story?
And that would mean I'm goingto take 20 minutes and I'm going
to tell you everything that Ican tell you about myself,
beginning from when I was youngup till now, and then I'm going
to invite you to do the samething, and we just want to sit
with those stories and see whatis it like?
What do I hear, what do I sense, what do I feel, what do I
(03:19):
think?
What's my sense of those kindsof things?
How can I be curious about yourstory without being condemning,
right?
So I'm going to think of oneperson that I can trust enough.
I'm going to use Teresa's Biblestudy as a mediation, right, as
(03:39):
something that helps us do this.
We're going to take 20 minutes.
We're not just going to, like,do the Bible study, we're not
just going to talk about theBible, we are going to talk with
each other.
We're great at talking aboutthings Far more scary to talk
with each other, but once youfind one person who says, okay,
(04:00):
we've done this, is theresomebody that you know and that
I know that we would like toinvite into this dyad.
There will now be four of us.
We're going to do this, we'regoing to.
Does this feel like, oh well,gosh, that hurt.
Like where am I going to findthese people?
Look, these people are here.
The people are here right.
There are those in the worldwho want to do this work.
(04:23):
We pray for it, we ask for itand we take risks, and someone's
going to say, no, I thinkthat's a ridiculous idea and
that's not going to feel good.
And Jesus will say I knowexactly what this is like.
Speaker 2 (04:34):
Yes.
Speaker 1 (04:35):
They're going to have their own version of I got to
go bury my dad, I got to go,like, check out the plot of land
, or other people are Likeyou'll start down that path and
you will think, oh, this isgoing to do well.
And then they're like why didyou do that?
That just doesn't like.
Or they're going to want to fixyou automatically, All the
things you're like okay, I guessyou're not really ready to do
this with me, Right?
So we're going to try this andwe're going to keep trying, yes,
(04:55):
and we're going to keep praying, but also like this again, just
to acknowledge to our listenersthat one of the reasons why the
work that you're doing likecreating a Bible study, for
instance it creates, it createsa handle, it creates like
something I can stand on, thatgives me a way to have language
(05:17):
for it, have imagery for thekind of storytelling that we
want to do, so that we cancontinue with the business of
telling the story about God'sintention to bring a world of
beauty and goodness into being.
Speaker 2 (05:30):
Yes, I love that.
One of the things I say aboutthe Bible study is my desire is
to open up a conversation Likewhen.
I wrote, graced, you know it wasabout six women in scripture
that were experienced sexualbrokenness and and it was like
let's do this study and open upa conversation with each other
(05:52):
about our own stories of sexualbrokenness and and even just
having that, like you said, kindof a handhold of.
We've got these women inscripture that have walked this
path before us, got these womenin scripture that have walked
this path before us.
We have their stories and thennow we have each other and, like
you said, there are going to besafe people in the group and
(06:12):
maybe even starting with one.
I think is really a good idea.
But, as you were describingthat I was thinking about, my
husband has a group of men thathe is working with in a
discipleship setting and one ofthe things that he's doing this
year is he's having them come inand share their life story and
every time he does it, I thinkthe men say that was my favorite
(06:35):
part, that was the best part,was hearing each other's stories
, being able to tell my story,and there was one person in
particular who just shared theirstory and their wife was saying
that was so healing, that wasso like, it was so good for him
and I think every wife would saythat like that was so good for
(06:57):
my husband, because I thinkespecially men and I might be
stereotyping, but I thinktypically men are not nearly as
open to sharing their stories aswomen.
I think women naturallygravitate toward you know, they
want to tell their stories and Ithink having that space for men
is so beautiful.
I love what you were describingthere and one of the things you
(07:20):
say in the Soul of Desire isthat you connect this longing to
be known with a longing forbeauty and and I love that um
how the word good in scriptureis is synonymous with with
beauty, or interchangeable withbeauty.
But can you explain how ourlonging to be known is like
(07:43):
coincides with the longing forbeauty?
Speaker 1 (07:46):
yeah, well, I, I think you know again.
Um, you can just look at humandevelopment, uh, without the
bible, and we can say, oh yeah,by the time kids get to a
certain age you know, two and ahalf three, three and a half
four without being told, withoutbeing instructed to, they just
start to make things.
(08:06):
And they don't want to.
They make things with great joyand they bring it to us.
As you know, they're proud ofwhat they've made.
There is this felt sense thatyou know, we don't even know
what this thing is right thatthey're making, but they've
handed it to us and they havethis felt sense that there is
(08:29):
something about this thing thatthey have made that is really
lovely.
There's something that's goodabout this thing that they've
made.
And the only way, at that time,perhaps, that we're able to
communicate without them is thejoy that we express to them in
receiving this thing, of whichwe have no idea what it is right
.
We don't know what this thingis, but then you know what this,
how, what this does, of course,like they, they can't address,
and we joyfully receive it, andthen they turn around, go off
(08:51):
and they make, then they makemore of it, right.
So, just looking at development,we are people who want to make
things, people who want to makethings, and the things that we
want to make, we want them to bebeautiful.
We want them to be things thatother people look at and are
(09:11):
struck by, right?
We talk about beauty.
As you know people who'vewritten philosophically about
this and theologically aboutthis, you know they're far
smarter than me about thesethings beautiful language, about
these kinds of things.
But some things that we wouldsay about beauty in and of
itself is that it is somethingof wonder, like.
(09:34):
When we see something that isbeauty, we wonder at it.
The second thing is that it iswelcoming, right, it's not
stingy with itself.
The second thing is that it iswelcoming, right, it invites.
It's not stingy with itself.
A sunset does not say no, onlyyou two people get to look at me
.
No, like like y'all, y'all come, y'all come, right, and then it
is.
It leads us like, it buckles us, right, it leads us to worship
(09:59):
this sense of like.
Oh my gosh, this is the feltsense that there is something
here that is beyond me.
I could, I'm like I'm lookingout a window right now as we're
talking.
I'm looking out a window at anoak tree.
That must be probably somewherein the 100 to 150 year age.
You know, it's utterly gorgeous, right, like I can't do that,
(10:20):
like I can't make that thing, Icouldn't even come up with the
idea, let alone right, right.
And so there is this.
These, these things that happen,and we sense this and we don't
have to get to the bible yet.
But when you then look at thebible we would say that god on
the first page, like he makeshumans in his image, male and
(10:41):
female.
He talked an awful lot aboutthat, male and female.
We could talk an awful lotabout that, male and female.
But what does that mean, to bein God's image?
It means a number of things,but one of the first things is
is that what is God doing on thefirst page of the Bible?
He's making things.
He is a God also of greatlonging, right Days, one through
five, and God said let there be, and there was.
(11:03):
Let the, and it was.
You'd think the same thing wouldhappen on day six, that he
would say let there be humanbeings and there were human
beings.
But he doesn't.
There is a pause in theconversation and he gathers the
divine council and he says toall gathered around shall we do
this?
And you can imagine consideringwhat's coming when they see
(11:35):
Genesis 4 coming, where ourbrother murders his brother, and
they say we're going to do this, anyway, we're doing this.
He has longing for us.
It's not just we're not justmade automatically, we're not
just made on impulse.
There is longing for us and sothat's not like we are made in
(11:59):
his image.
We are longing preachers, butwe are longing to be artists.
We are longing to make things,and so that's also like we are
made in his image.
We are longing preachers, butwe are longing to be artists.
We are longing to make things.
And so this longing that wehave to be seen, to be sued, to
be safe, to be secure, to belaunched into the world, we do
so in order to go make things,in order for us to experience
and become the beauty that Godhas originally thought.
(12:20):
From the first two pages of theBible, that mission has not
changed.
Some of us think that the gospelbegins in Genesis 3, that this
is where the Bible starts.
It starts with like we're brokenpeople, right, that's how it
starts, right.
And it turns out the Bibleactually begins in the beginning
and not like three chapters inRight right.
So this is important for us torecognize that legal, for for
(12:43):
our listeners who are, who arelike feeling like we're being
buried in our own story oftrauma, like it is important for
us to hear that your storybegan with beauty and goodness
and that has not.
Now, some of us have a hardtime imagining how that could be
possible, given the realitiesof our world, which is why we
(13:07):
who are heralds of the gospel,we Jesus followers, are his body
, are his bone, are his blood,are his voice, are his hands,
are his ears, enabling people totell their story so that, in
the telling, they can have theexperience of being known and
therefore catching the glimpseof what it means for them to
become icons of beauty and thengo on to create beauty and
(13:30):
goodness in the world.
We like to say that what we aredoing is we are imagining for
people while their imaginationsare trying to catch up.
Speaker 2 (13:42):
Yes, yes, I love that .
I love that you pointed outthat the gospel starts in
Genesis 1, like with Godcreating us for Him, for
(14:04):
relationship being with him, andthen Genesis 3 happens and for
me I feel like the whole gospelis the rest of the story.
Is God going?
Speaker 1 (14:08):
after his kids.
He wants us, he wants his kidsback, he wants relationship with
us, and that's the whole storyand I just love that and I don't
want to.
Speaker 2 (14:18):
I don't want to skip right to starting with sin, but
starting with no.
You're made created hand-knitby God, who loves you and wants
relationship with you.
Speaker 1 (14:31):
I love how you said that it is really hard to
believe this.
This is the thing.
I don't want to skip over thefact that it is easy for us who
have had some contact with theSpirit painting of the
(15:07):
enunciation of mary sitting onthe bed and this brilliant,
bright shaft of light that's inthe foreground.
It is the angel that she's like.
Not everyone has had that feltsense, and so we can name these
things, even on this podcast, wecan name these things and
sometimes it's easy for us tothink that just because we said
it, therefore, it's just easyfor people to take these words
in and make it be true.
And it's really like evil hasno, like evil doesn't want this
(15:29):
podcast happening.
Evil doesn't want people tolike hear this and begin to
wonder is that possible?
Possible because so much of ourneural payload is so embedded
with memory of the terror, ofintimacy that even when we say
no, this is possible, lifebegins in genesis one.
(15:51):
I want to want to believe it,and so for those of us who find
that really hard, we would say,yeah, of course.
Of course it's hard.
So for those of us who findthat really hard, we would say,
yeah, of course, of course it'shard, and it is still true, and
it's hard, and it is still true,and we are unapologetic about
this.
Speaker 2 (16:10):
Yes, Thank you for having that sensitivity to the
listeners, because I'm surethere are people who are saying
exactly that Like this is allnice and good for you to say,
but it's not my experience, it'snot my reality.
Right, right, right.
One of the things that you doso beautifully is the merging of
(16:32):
the neurobiology with scripture, with a biblical worldview, and
one of the things that you'vetalked about and I've heard this
well, whether in your books oron your podcast is like how we
can rewire our brains to even beable to receive and accept this
(16:53):
kind of information.
There are practices likethere's practical things we can
do when we say, no, I can't gothere, I don't get this.
Like there's practical thingswe can do when we say, no, I
can't go there.
I don't get this.
Like there are some things thatwe can do and I know we don't
have time to get into a lot, butare there some simple things
that you can suggest tolisteners who are saying I want
to believe that reality, but Idon't even know where to start?
(17:16):
Like that's not my reality.
I don't even know where tostart, like that's not my
reality.
Speaker 1 (17:21):
Yeah, yeah, the first thing to know is that the most
durably beautiful things in theworld take the longest time to
make.
That's important.
The snowflake is incrediblybeautiful.
It forms and goes away in lessthan half a second.
The Grand Canyon differentstory.
(17:43):
So we're not just talking aboutthe most beautiful things.
The most beautifully durablethings, the most durably
beautiful things take a longtime to make.
So, first of all, it'simportant to know that these new
neural networks, in order forthem to be durably formed, take
(18:03):
practice.
That's one thing to say aheadof time.
This does not happen overnight,but it can happen.
For example, we would say allhabits, whether good or bad, are
fairly fully formed within sixweeks, but it takes at least six
weeks of practice.
Mm-hmm, If I wanna be good atplaying the piano, it means that
(18:26):
I'm going to practice for 15minutes every day and that will
get me farther down the road,more effectively, more durably,
than practicing for two hoursonce a week.
Okay so that's important to know.
Number two the brain.
You know we've learned in thelast 30 years about the brain's
(18:48):
capacity for making changes thatwhen I was in medical school we
didn't think really couldhappen was in medical school.
We didn't think really couldhappen.
When I was in medical school,if I was on the neurology unit
and you had a stroke, you werein the hospital for six weeks
and we sent you home and saidgood luck.
Now, if you have a stroke, wesend you from the neurology unit
to a rehab facility where, 10hours a day, every day of the
(19:10):
week, you will be doing smalllittle things in order to begin
to recruit other neurons fromyour central nervous system that
have never had to do the kindsof things that they're doing,
because we now realize that thebrain can actually recruit new
neural networks to do new things.
If you tell your story tosomeone and you get to the part
(19:31):
where you're really vulnerableand frightened because you're
about to say something thatfeels really shamed of, that
you've only ever felt ashamed of, and you take the risk of
naming this to Teresa, and whatyou see and sense and hear with
Teresa is not condemnation butloving kindness, what you're
(19:53):
doing in that very moment isthat you are allowing your mind
to bring together the experienceof your shame and the
experience of loving kindness,and that is a felt sense that
you have in your body, and it isalso an act that turns on those
networks in your brain thatrepresent your sense of
(20:13):
well-being, networks that havenever been turned on ever before
because they've only ever beenentangled with shame.
That's the only meaning I'veever given to this thing about
my life.
That happened to me when I was13.
When that happens and then I'mgoing to come back and have
another conversation with Teresanext week and the following
(20:33):
week, and so forth and so on orwith my good friends to whom I'm
telling my story that we talkedabout earlier we find that I am
practicing creating new,durable neural networks in a
fresh way, right, so that's partof how we're doing this.
So, neuroplasticity, right,we're going to take a long time.
(20:54):
We're going to practice thislittle by little, and here are
some things that we can begin.
Number one pick one story.
Like I said, I love like again,the resource of your Bible
study just continues to like,just bear fruit here, any of
these women's stories.
Take the story of the scriptureand I want, I would invite you
to read the story and thenimagine yourself being that
(21:15):
character.
Imagine yourself being thatcharacter without judgment,
without analysis, without youknow, and just like.
What would it be like for me to?
What do I feel If I were thewoman in Mark, chapter five,
with the bleeding problem?
I'm the woman with the bleedingproblem.
What do I find myself feeling?
What if I were a person in thecrowd watching this happen?
(21:35):
What would I feel when Iwatched Jesus coming for her?
What do I start to sense?
Allow myself to become acharacter in the text.
Right, just do it Like.
For those of us, I don't knowhow many of our listeners have
heard of or listened to the TVonline series the Chosen Right,
there is the episode where Jesusencounters the woman in John 4,
(21:56):
encounters the woman at thewell.
Like unbelievable.
When you watch that episode,what is it like if you're the
person who's having thatconversation with the king at
the well?
What is it like for you?
So that's one thing.
We're going to allow ourselvesto be part of stories that help
our story take on a differentkind of experience.
(22:19):
Second, the practice ofChristian meditation.
There are any number ofscriptural texts when we imagine
the Lord is my shepherd.
I shall not want it's the firstverse of the 23rd Psalm the
Lord is my shepherd.
If I were to meditate, if Iwere to picture, I shall not
want it's the first verse of the23rd Psalm the Lord is my
shepherd.
If I were to meditate, if Iwere to picture I'm a sheep and
(22:43):
the Lord is my shepherd, whatdoes it mean for him to be my
shepherd?
I'm just going to imagine I'mlike I'm walking in a field with
him.
He's got his arm around me.
Ooh, that feels like really theking, king.
And then he walks you to aplace and you walk if you were
to walk through that text,imagining me being the person
(23:03):
who's being walked by Jesusthrough the valley of the shadow
of death.
And then you come to this placewhere there is a picnic table
spread with your favorite picniclunch, all the things, so
scriptural texts on which tomeditate Not to analyze, but to
(23:24):
meditate.
And then I would say then, thisidea of stories that we've been
talking about already by whom amI going to be heard on a
regular basis?
There's going to be a cadence ofsomeone hearing my story, and
(23:45):
you know, one thing that wesometimes will do or say is like
well, you know, I've alreadytold that person that story, and
we like to say that, as far asthe brain is concerned, you
never tell the same story twiceEver, because if I've told you
my story a week ago, I've givenyou the facts on the ground.
If I come back and tell you thesame story now, the reality is
I'm actually talking to a personwho I know knows this at some
(24:05):
level, and so I'm alreadytelling a story about like well,
teresa's probably going to getbored because, like she's
already heard this, which, ofcourse, shame is coming back
around to try to reinforceitself.
And so now, the telling of mystory is now yet the next verse
in the song that I have to tell.
Even though I think it's thesame thing, it's never the same
thing.
Speaker 2 (24:24):
Yes, yes, oh, kurt, I feel like we could talk for two
more hours, but I know we haveto wrap things up and so I want
to respect your time and thankyou for this conversation, and I
will have links to all the waysthat people can find you your
podcast, your books, yourwebsite, all of those things.
(24:46):
But in closing, if you wouldjust speak finally, maybe one
last word of encouragement tothe listener who feels unseen,
who wonders if they'll ever beseen and known and loved for who
they are.
Do you have one last word ofencouragement for that listener?
Speaker 1 (25:09):
Yeah, I mean, the first thing I would want to do
would be if the listener were inthe room with you and me.
I think the first thing I wouldwant to do would be to join
them and say, uh, that thisfeels uh frightening to believe
that I'm seen makes completesense.
But, theresa, and I would sayit makes complete sense to us,
(25:32):
you're not alone in being afraid, not alone.
That.
And we would want you, I wouldwant you to hear that as the
first sense that you're not byyourself.
And this whole notion of ourhealing begins with our not
being alone.
That is the first step ofhealing our felt sense that even
(25:54):
when someone says we get it, itfeels right, is a move towards
being with.
And then I would say, I want youto know that your story, every
single day, when Paul writes andsays even though our outer
nature is wasting away, ourinner nature is being renewed
(26:14):
day by day.
It begins it's new today and,what do you know, tomorrow it's
actually newer than it wasyesterday, which is kind of
weird for us.
Right, and to what we wouldwant to say, like your story is
waiting for newness and Godwants to meet you there and God
also wants you to partner withhim in that enterprise.
He is not going to twist yourarm, nor is he going to spoon
you there.
And God also wants you topartner with him in that
(26:36):
enterprise.
He is not going to twist yourarm, nor is he going to spoon
feed you, because he is far moreserious about your becoming who
he wants you to be, perhapseven than you are, this icon of
beauty and goodness in the world.
Speaker 2 (26:54):
Well, I want to thank you so much for just taking the
time to be here to have thisconversation and just for being
my guest today.
Speaker 1 (27:04):
It's been a joy.
Thanks so much for having meAgain.
I've said it's very humbling.
I don't deserve my life, andthis would be one more reason as
to why that's true.
So thank you.
Speaker 2 (27:16):
Thanks for hanging out with me today on Beauty and
the Brokenness, and this wouldbe one more reason as to why
that's true.
So thank you that I'm currentlywriting, but I'm not sure if
you know this.
I've already published onestudy called Graced how God
(27:37):
Redeems and Restores the Broken.
It's a study about six sexuallybroken women in scripture and
the God who rescued and redeemedand restored them.
If you enjoyed this episode,you would love going through
that study, Maybe even grab afew friends and go through it
together.
You'll find a link to it in theshow notes.
(27:58):
I pray that you have eyes tosee the beautiful redemptive
work of Jesus in the midst ofyour broken life.
I want to leave you with thisverse from Numbers 6, 24 to 26.
The Lord bless you and keep you.
The Lord make his face shine onyou and be gracious to you.
(28:20):
The Lord turn his face towardyou and give you peace.
Some of us think that the gospel begins in Genesis 3,
that this is where the Biblestarts.
It starts with like we'rebroken people, right, that's how
it starts, right.
And it turns out the Bibleactually begins in the beginning
and not like three chapters inRight right.
So, this is important for us torecognize that for our
listeners, who are like feelinglike we're being buried in our
(00:23):
own story of trauma, like it isimportant for us to hear that
your story began with beauty andgoodness and that has not
changed.
Speaker 2 (00:37):
Today I'm continuing my conversation with Dr Kurt
Thompson.
Last week he shared theimportance of what it means to
be seen how storytelling helpsus heal, and he also shared a
beautiful perspective on thestory of the bleeding woman.
If you haven't heard part oneyet, you've got to go back and
listen to that first.
Welcome to Beauty and theBrokenness, where we have honest
(01:01):
conversations about the Bible,our real-life struggles and the
hope God brings for healing.
I'm your host, teresa Whiting,an author, bible teacher and
trauma-informed life coach, butmostly a friend and fellow
struggler.
No matter who you are or whereyou've been, I'm inviting you to
encounter the God of rescue,redemption and restoration.
(01:24):
You to encounter the God ofrescue, redemption and
restoration, the God who isstill creating beauty right in
the midst of your brokenness.
Speaker 1 (01:32):
This whole notion of telling our stories in this way
is what it means to be human.
It's not, oh, the thing that Ihave to do or the only option
that I have in order for me tobe healed.
Right, the woman with thebleeding problem?
The telling of her story wasnot just well, this is the only
option Jesus is giving me inorder for me to be fully healed.
(01:52):
No, he's turning her into theperson that she was to have been
from before the foundation ofthe world the telling of her
story.
And so this is risky businesswhen evil doesn't want us doing
this.
This was the mission for Adamand Eve in Genesis, chapters one
and two.
We get to chapter three.
(02:13):
We're going to.
Evil wants to corrupt thestorytelling mechanism, not just
as a story, the storytellingmechanism, how we tell it, and
so it is hard to do this, and itis the most glorious thing that
we will do, and so a simple wayto be would be like okay, can
we think of one person that youtrust enough, not that you trust
(02:34):
comprehensively.
Nobody is comprehensivelytrustworthy.
I'm not.
Do I trust enough to say Iwould really love I have a Bible
study from Teresa.
I would love for you to do thiswith me, and could we do this
and tell our stories to eachother?
One person, one person.
Can I take that Bible study andlet the Bible study be a guide,
(02:57):
right, so I can have ago-between, we can have help
along the way.
We can do this.
Can I tell you my story?
And that would mean I'm goingto take 20 minutes and I'm going
to tell you everything that Ican tell you about myself,
beginning from when I was youngup till now, and then I'm going
to invite you to do the samething, and we just want to sit
with those stories and see whatis it like?
What do I hear, what do I sense, what do I feel, what do I
(03:19):
think?
What's my sense of those kindsof things?
How can I be curious about yourstory without being condemning,
right?
So I'm going to think of oneperson that I can trust enough.
I'm going to use Teresa's Biblestudy as a mediation, right, as
(03:39):
something that helps us do this.
We're going to take 20 minutes.
We're not just going to, like,do the Bible study, we're not
just going to talk about theBible, we are going to talk with
each other.
We're great at talking aboutthings Far more scary to talk
with each other, but once youfind one person who says, okay,
(04:00):
we've done this, is theresomebody that you know and that
I know that we would like toinvite into this dyad.
There will now be four of us.
We're going to do this, we'regoing to.
Does this feel like, oh well,gosh, that hurt.
Like where am I going to findthese people?
Look, these people are here.
The people are here right.
There are those in the worldwho want to do this work.
(04:23):
We pray for it, we ask for itand we take risks, and someone's
going to say, no, I thinkthat's a ridiculous idea and
that's not going to feel good.
And Jesus will say I knowexactly what this is like.
Speaker 2 (04:34):
Yes.
Speaker 1 (04:35):
They're going to have their own version of I got to
go bury my dad, I got to go,like, check out the plot of land
, or other people are Likeyou'll start down that path and
you will think, oh, this isgoing to do well.
And then they're like why didyou do that?
That just doesn't like.
Or they're going to want to fixyou automatically, All the
things you're like okay, I guessyou're not really ready to do
this with me, Right?
So we're going to try this andwe're going to keep trying, yes,
(04:55):
and we're going to keep praying, but also like this again, just
to acknowledge to our listenersthat one of the reasons why the
work that you're doing likecreating a Bible study, for
instance it creates, it createsa handle, it creates like
something I can stand on, thatgives me a way to have language
(05:17):
for it, have imagery for thekind of storytelling that we
want to do, so that we cancontinue with the business of
telling the story about God'sintention to bring a world of
beauty and goodness into being.
Speaker 2 (05:30):
Yes, I love that.
One of the things I say aboutthe Bible study is my desire is
to open up a conversation Likewhen.
I wrote, graced, you know it wasabout six women in scripture
that were experienced sexualbrokenness and and it was like
let's do this study and open upa conversation with each other
(05:52):
about our own stories of sexualbrokenness and and even just
having that, like you said, kindof a handhold of.
We've got these women inscripture that have walked this
path before us, got these womenin scripture that have walked
this path before us.
We have their stories and thennow we have each other and, like
you said, there are going to besafe people in the group and
(06:12):
maybe even starting with one.
I think is really a good idea.
But, as you were describingthat I was thinking about, my
husband has a group of men thathe is working with in a
discipleship setting and one ofthe things that he's doing this
year is he's having them come inand share their life story and
every time he does it, I thinkthe men say that was my favorite
(06:35):
part, that was the best part,was hearing each other's stories
, being able to tell my story,and there was one person in
particular who just shared theirstory and their wife was saying
that was so healing, that wasso like, it was so good for him
and I think every wife would saythat like that was so good for
(06:57):
my husband, because I thinkespecially men and I might be
stereotyping, but I thinktypically men are not nearly as
open to sharing their stories aswomen.
I think women naturallygravitate toward you know, they
want to tell their stories and Ithink having that space for men
is so beautiful.
I love what you were describingthere and one of the things you
(07:20):
say in the Soul of Desire isthat you connect this longing to
be known with a longing forbeauty and and I love that um
how the word good in scriptureis is synonymous with with
beauty, or interchangeable withbeauty.
But can you explain how ourlonging to be known is like
(07:43):
coincides with the longing forbeauty?
Speaker 1 (07:46):
yeah, well, I, I think you know again.
Um, you can just look at humandevelopment, uh, without the
bible, and we can say, oh yeah,by the time kids get to a
certain age you know, two and ahalf three, three and a half
four without being told, withoutbeing instructed to, they just
start to make things.
(08:06):
And they don't want to.
They make things with great joyand they bring it to us.
As you know, they're proud ofwhat they've made.
There is this felt sense thatyou know, we don't even know
what this thing is right thatthey're making, but they've
handed it to us and they havethis felt sense that there is
(08:29):
something about this thing thatthey have made that is really
lovely.
There's something that's goodabout this thing that they've
made.
And the only way, at that time,perhaps, that we're able to
communicate without them is thejoy that we express to them in
receiving this thing, of whichwe have no idea what it is right
.
We don't know what this thingis, but then you know what this,
how, what this does, of course,like they, they can't address,
and we joyfully receive it, andthen they turn around, go off
(08:51):
and they make, then they makemore of it, right.
So, just looking at development,we are people who want to make
things, people who want to makethings, and the things that we
want to make, we want them to bebeautiful.
We want them to be things thatother people look at and are
(09:11):
struck by, right?
We talk about beauty.
As you know people who'vewritten philosophically about
this and theologically aboutthis, you know they're far
smarter than me about thesethings beautiful language, about
these kinds of things.
But some things that we wouldsay about beauty in and of
itself is that it is somethingof wonder, like.
(09:34):
When we see something that isbeauty, we wonder at it.
The second thing is that it iswelcoming, right, it's not
stingy with itself.
The second thing is that it iswelcoming, right, it invites.
It's not stingy with itself.
A sunset does not say no, onlyyou two people get to look at me
.
No, like like y'all, y'all come, y'all come, right, and then it
is.
It leads us like, it buckles us, right, it leads us to worship
(09:59):
this sense of like.
Oh my gosh, this is the feltsense that there is something
here that is beyond me.
I could, I'm like I'm lookingout a window right now as we're
talking.
I'm looking out a window at anoak tree.
That must be probably somewherein the 100 to 150 year age.
You know, it's utterly gorgeous, right, like I can't do that,
(10:20):
like I can't make that thing, Icouldn't even come up with the
idea, let alone right, right.
And so there is this.
These, these things that happen,and we sense this and we don't
have to get to the bible yet.
But when you then look at thebible we would say that god on
the first page, like he makeshumans in his image, male and
(10:41):
female.
He talked an awful lot aboutthat, male and female.
We could talk an awful lotabout that, male and female.
But what does that mean, to bein God's image?
It means a number of things,but one of the first things is
is that what is God doing on thefirst page of the Bible?
He's making things.
He is a God also of greatlonging, right Days, one through
five, and God said let there be, and there was.
(11:03):
Let the, and it was.
You'd think the same thing wouldhappen on day six, that he
would say let there be humanbeings and there were human
beings.
But he doesn't.
There is a pause in theconversation and he gathers the
divine council and he says toall gathered around shall we do
this?
And you can imagine consideringwhat's coming when they see
(11:35):
Genesis 4 coming, where ourbrother murders his brother, and
they say we're going to do this, anyway, we're doing this.
He has longing for us.
It's not just we're not justmade automatically, we're not
just made on impulse.
There is longing for us and sothat's not like we are made in
(11:59):
his image.
We are longing preachers, butwe are longing to be artists.
We are longing to make things,and so that's also like we are
made in his image.
We are longing preachers, butwe are longing to be artists.
We are longing to make things.
And so this longing that wehave to be seen, to be sued, to
be safe, to be secure, to belaunched into the world, we do
so in order to go make things,in order for us to experience
and become the beauty that Godhas originally thought.
(12:20):
From the first two pages of theBible, that mission has not
changed.
Some of us think that the gospelbegins in Genesis 3, that this
is where the Bible starts.
It starts with like we're brokenpeople, right, that's how it
starts, right.
And it turns out the Bibleactually begins in the beginning
and not like three chapters inRight right.
So this is important for us torecognize that legal, for for
(12:43):
our listeners who are, who arelike feeling like we're being
buried in our own story oftrauma, like it is important for
us to hear that your storybegan with beauty and goodness
and that has not.
Now, some of us have a hardtime imagining how that could be
possible, given the realitiesof our world, which is why we
(13:07):
who are heralds of the gospel,we Jesus followers, are his body
, are his bone, are his blood,are his voice, are his hands,
are his ears, enabling people totell their story so that, in
the telling, they can have theexperience of being known and
therefore catching the glimpseof what it means for them to
become icons of beauty and thengo on to create beauty and
(13:30):
goodness in the world.
We like to say that what we aredoing is we are imagining for
people while their imaginationsare trying to catch up.
Speaker 2 (13:42):
Yes, yes, I love that .
I love that you pointed outthat the gospel starts in
Genesis 1, like with Godcreating us for Him, for
(14:04):
relationship being with him, andthen Genesis 3 happens and for
me I feel like the whole gospelis the rest of the story.
Is God going?
Speaker 1 (14:08):
after his kids.
He wants us, he wants his kidsback, he wants relationship with
us, and that's the whole storyand I just love that and I don't
want to.
Speaker 2 (14:18):
I don't want to skip right to starting with sin, but
starting with no.
You're made created hand-knitby God, who loves you and wants
relationship with you.
Speaker 1 (14:31):
I love how you said that it is really hard to
believe this.
This is the thing.
I don't want to skip over thefact that it is easy for us who
have had some contact with theSpirit painting of the
(15:07):
enunciation of mary sitting onthe bed and this brilliant,
bright shaft of light that's inthe foreground.
It is the angel that she's like.
Not everyone has had that feltsense, and so we can name these
things, even on this podcast, wecan name these things and
sometimes it's easy for us tothink that just because we said
it, therefore, it's just easyfor people to take these words
in and make it be true.
And it's really like evil hasno, like evil doesn't want this
(15:29):
podcast happening.
Evil doesn't want people tolike hear this and begin to
wonder is that possible?
Possible because so much of ourneural payload is so embedded
with memory of the terror, ofintimacy that even when we say
no, this is possible, lifebegins in genesis one.
(15:51):
I want to want to believe it,and so for those of us who find
that really hard, we would say,yeah, of course.
Of course it's hard.
So for those of us who findthat really hard, we would say,
yeah, of course, of course it'shard, and it is still true, and
it's hard, and it is still true,and we are unapologetic about
this.
Speaker 2 (16:10):
Yes, Thank you for having that sensitivity to the
listeners, because I'm surethere are people who are saying
exactly that Like this is allnice and good for you to say,
but it's not my experience, it'snot my reality.
Right, right, right.
One of the things that you doso beautifully is the merging of
(16:32):
the neurobiology with scripture, with a biblical worldview, and
one of the things that you'vetalked about and I've heard this
well, whether in your books oron your podcast is like how we
can rewire our brains to even beable to receive and accept this
(16:53):
kind of information.
There are practices likethere's practical things we can
do when we say, no, I can't gothere, I don't get this.
Like there's practical thingswe can do when we say, no, I
can't go there.
I don't get this.
Like there are some things thatwe can do and I know we don't
have time to get into a lot, butare there some simple things
that you can suggest tolisteners who are saying I want
to believe that reality, but Idon't even know where to start?
(17:16):
Like that's not my reality.
I don't even know where tostart, like that's not my
reality.
Speaker 1 (17:21):
Yeah, yeah, the first thing to know is that the most
durably beautiful things in theworld take the longest time to
make.
That's important.
The snowflake is incrediblybeautiful.
It forms and goes away in lessthan half a second.
The Grand Canyon differentstory.
(17:43):
So we're not just talking aboutthe most beautiful things.
The most beautifully durablethings, the most durably
beautiful things take a longtime to make.
So, first of all, it'simportant to know that these new
neural networks, in order forthem to be durably formed, take
(18:03):
practice.
That's one thing to say aheadof time.
This does not happen overnight,but it can happen.
For example, we would say allhabits, whether good or bad, are
fairly fully formed within sixweeks, but it takes at least six
weeks of practice.
Mm-hmm, If I wanna be good atplaying the piano, it means that
(18:26):
I'm going to practice for 15minutes every day and that will
get me farther down the road,more effectively, more durably,
than practicing for two hoursonce a week.
Okay so that's important to know.
Number two the brain.
You know we've learned in thelast 30 years about the brain's
(18:48):
capacity for making changes thatwhen I was in medical school we
didn't think really couldhappen was in medical school.
We didn't think really couldhappen.
When I was in medical school,if I was on the neurology unit
and you had a stroke, you werein the hospital for six weeks
and we sent you home and saidgood luck.
Now, if you have a stroke, wesend you from the neurology unit
to a rehab facility where, 10hours a day, every day of the
(19:10):
week, you will be doing smalllittle things in order to begin
to recruit other neurons fromyour central nervous system that
have never had to do the kindsof things that they're doing,
because we now realize that thebrain can actually recruit new
neural networks to do new things.
If you tell your story tosomeone and you get to the part
(19:31):
where you're really vulnerableand frightened because you're
about to say something thatfeels really shamed of, that
you've only ever felt ashamed of, and you take the risk of
naming this to Teresa, and whatyou see and sense and hear with
Teresa is not condemnation butloving kindness, what you're
(19:53):
doing in that very moment isthat you are allowing your mind
to bring together the experienceof your shame and the
experience of loving kindness,and that is a felt sense that
you have in your body, and it isalso an act that turns on those
networks in your brain thatrepresent your sense of
(20:13):
well-being, networks that havenever been turned on ever before
because they've only ever beenentangled with shame.
That's the only meaning I'veever given to this thing about
my life.
That happened to me when I was13.
When that happens and then I'mgoing to come back and have
another conversation with Teresanext week and the following
(20:33):
week, and so forth and so on orwith my good friends to whom I'm
telling my story that we talkedabout earlier we find that I am
practicing creating new,durable neural networks in a
fresh way, right, so that's partof how we're doing this.
So, neuroplasticity, right,we're going to take a long time.
(20:54):
We're going to practice thislittle by little, and here are
some things that we can begin.
Number one pick one story.
Like I said, I love like again,the resource of your Bible
study just continues to like,just bear fruit here, any of
these women's stories.
Take the story of the scriptureand I want, I would invite you
to read the story and thenimagine yourself being that
(21:15):
character.
Imagine yourself being thatcharacter without judgment,
without analysis, without youknow, and just like.
What would it be like for me to?
What do I feel If I were thewoman in Mark, chapter five,
with the bleeding problem?
I'm the woman with the bleedingproblem.
What do I find myself feeling?
What if I were a person in thecrowd watching this happen?
(21:35):
What would I feel when Iwatched Jesus coming for her?
What do I start to sense?
Allow myself to become acharacter in the text.
Right, just do it Like.
For those of us, I don't knowhow many of our listeners have
heard of or listened to the TVonline series the Chosen Right,
there is the episode where Jesusencounters the woman in John 4,
(21:56):
encounters the woman at thewell.
Like unbelievable.
When you watch that episode,what is it like if you're the
person who's having thatconversation with the king at
the well?
What is it like for you?
So that's one thing.
We're going to allow ourselvesto be part of stories that help
our story take on a differentkind of experience.
(22:19):
Second, the practice ofChristian meditation.
There are any number ofscriptural texts when we imagine
the Lord is my shepherd.
I shall not want it's the firstverse of the 23rd Psalm the
Lord is my shepherd.
If I were to meditate, if Iwere to picture, I shall not
want it's the first verse of the23rd Psalm the Lord is my
shepherd.
If I were to meditate, if Iwere to picture I'm a sheep and
(22:43):
the Lord is my shepherd, whatdoes it mean for him to be my
shepherd?
I'm just going to imagine I'mlike I'm walking in a field with
him.
He's got his arm around me.
Ooh, that feels like really theking, king.
And then he walks you to aplace and you walk if you were
to walk through that text,imagining me being the person
(23:03):
who's being walked by Jesusthrough the valley of the shadow
of death.
And then you come to this placewhere there is a picnic table
spread with your favorite picniclunch, all the things, so
scriptural texts on which tomeditate Not to analyze, but to
(23:24):
meditate.
And then I would say then, thisidea of stories that we've been
talking about already by whom amI going to be heard on a
regular basis?
There's going to be a cadence ofsomeone hearing my story, and
(23:45):
you know, one thing that wesometimes will do or say is like
well, you know, I've alreadytold that person that story, and
we like to say that, as far asthe brain is concerned, you
never tell the same story twiceEver, because if I've told you
my story a week ago, I've givenyou the facts on the ground.
If I come back and tell you thesame story now, the reality is
I'm actually talking to a personwho I know knows this at some
(24:05):
level, and so I'm alreadytelling a story about like well,
teresa's probably going to getbored because, like she's
already heard this, which, ofcourse, shame is coming back
around to try to reinforceitself.
And so now, the telling of mystory is now yet the next verse
in the song that I have to tell.
Even though I think it's thesame thing, it's never the same
thing.
Speaker 2 (24:24):
Yes, yes, oh, kurt, I feel like we could talk for two
more hours, but I know we haveto wrap things up and so I want
to respect your time and thankyou for this conversation, and I
will have links to all the waysthat people can find you your
podcast, your books, yourwebsite, all of those things.
(24:46):
But in closing, if you wouldjust speak finally, maybe one
last word of encouragement tothe listener who feels unseen,
who wonders if they'll ever beseen and known and loved for who
they are.
Do you have one last word ofencouragement for that listener?
Speaker 1 (25:09):
Yeah, I mean, the first thing I would want to do
would be if the listener were inthe room with you and me.
I think the first thing I wouldwant to do would be to join
them and say, uh, that thisfeels uh frightening to believe
that I'm seen makes completesense.
But, theresa, and I would sayit makes complete sense to us,
(25:32):
you're not alone in being afraid, not alone.
That.
And we would want you, I wouldwant you to hear that as the
first sense that you're not byyourself.
And this whole notion of ourhealing begins with our not
being alone.
That is the first step ofhealing our felt sense that even
(25:54):
when someone says we get it, itfeels right, is a move towards
being with.
And then I would say, I want youto know that your story, every
single day, when Paul writes andsays even though our outer
nature is wasting away, ourinner nature is being renewed
(26:14):
day by day.
It begins it's new today and,what do you know, tomorrow it's
actually newer than it wasyesterday, which is kind of
weird for us.
Right, and to what we wouldwant to say, like your story is
waiting for newness and Godwants to meet you there and God
also wants you to partner withhim in that enterprise.
He is not going to twist yourarm, nor is he going to spoon
you there.
And God also wants you topartner with him in that
(26:36):
enterprise.
He is not going to twist yourarm, nor is he going to spoon
feed you, because he is far moreserious about your becoming who
he wants you to be, perhapseven than you are, this icon of
beauty and goodness in the world.
Speaker 2 (26:54):
Well, I want to thank you so much for just taking the
time to be here to have thisconversation and just for being
my guest today.
Speaker 1 (27:04):
It's been a joy.
Thanks so much for having meAgain.
I've said it's very humbling.
I don't deserve my life, andthis would be one more reason as
to why that's true.
So thank you.
Speaker 2 (27:16):
Thanks for hanging out with me today on Beauty and
the Brokenness, and this wouldbe one more reason as to why
that's true.
So thank you that I'm currentlywriting, but I'm not sure if
you know this.
I've already published onestudy called Graced how God
(27:37):
Redeems and Restores the Broken.
It's a study about six sexuallybroken women in scripture and
the God who rescued and redeemedand restored them.
If you enjoyed this episode,you would love going through
that study, Maybe even grab afew friends and go through it
together.
You'll find a link to it in theshow notes.
(27:58):
I pray that you have eyes tosee the beautiful redemptive
work of Jesus in the midst ofyour broken life.
I want to leave you with thisverse from Numbers 6, 24 to 26.
The Lord bless you and keep you.
The Lord make his face shine onyou and be gracious to you.
(28:20):
The Lord turn his face towardyou and give you peace.
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