October 21, 2025 • 43 mins
What if the most life-changing truth isn’t simply that God loves people, but that God knows and loves you? He knows every thought, every word, every action—and still pursues you with steadfast love. That’s the heartbeat of our conversation with author and Bible teacher Glenna Marshall as we open Psalm 139 and let it reshape how we see God—and how we see ourselves.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
SPEAKER_01 (00:00):
Well, welcome friends.
I'm excited to introduce you tomy guest today.
I am speaking with GlennaMarshall.
Glenna is a writer and speakerwho loves to lead others into a
deeper discovery of scripture.
She is the author of four books,The Mom of Two Sons, and she is
a member of Grace BibleFellowship in Sykeston,
(00:22):
Missouri, where she and herhusband have served for 20
years.
So welcome, Glenna, and thanksfor being here.
Thanks.
I'm happy to be here and to chatwith you today.
Awesome.
Before we get started in some ofthe questions I have, um, would
you just tell the listeners alittle bit more about who you
are and the work that you do?
SPEAKER_03 (00:41):
Yeah, well, I am married to my pastor.
So I am a pastor's wife, and alot of our life is really
entrenched in local churchministry.
I lead a women's Bible studyevery week.
And then I, in the last maybeyear or so, took on discipling
the teenage girls at our church,which is not something I really
(01:02):
ever saw myself doing becauseI'm a boy mom just down to the
core, but I love it so much.
Like being around teenage girls,I just remember the drama of my
junior high and high schoolyears, and everything is
incredibly stressful for them.
And so I love that they let meinto their life.
And I just want it's a reallybright spot of ministry in my
(01:25):
life right now.
And actually, I'm headed theretonight to meet with our teenage
girls and we're just walkingthrough scriptures and
chit-chatting about stuff.
So that brings me a lot of joy.
And then um, I my actual work,work, pay work, would be uh
writing books and uh travelingas an as a speaker to women's
conferences and retreats.
And I just love to teach God'sword.
(01:46):
I love to open up to a chapterand walk through it.
And I have been changed bystudying God's word, and I want
that for other Christians somuch.
So I feel like if there's asubtext to anything I have
written, it is please, please,please read your Bibles.
So yeah, so I feel like that'smy life mission.
I'm gonna make you love God'sword if I can.
SPEAKER_01 (02:08):
Yes, yes, I love that.
I love that.
I feel like we have a lot incommon just in your passion,
your mission, and I'm alsopastor's wife.
So have that in common too.
Yeah.
So you, your most recent book,it is called Known and Loved,
Experiencing the Affection ofGod in Psalm 139.
(02:29):
And I love, love, love Psalm139.
We are in the midst of a serieson the podcast called the Seen
Series.
And so I'm I'm in the middle ofwriting a Bible study.
I have a passion like you.
Like, I want the Bible to comealive for people.
I want them to read it.
Um, but what I do is I'm takingthe life of six different women
in scripture that may have feltunseen or invisible or
(02:54):
marginalized.
And in every chapter on dayfour, I always include a psalm,
a psalm that that woman mighthave related to or have it kind
of encapsulates her life.
And I love Psalm 139 for Hagarbecause Oh wow, yeah.
She says, You are the God whosees me.
(03:14):
And this is a psalm all aboutbeing seen and known.
And so when I saw your book, Iwas like, let's have a
conversation about Psalm 139.
Yeah.
So I love that.
That's a beautiful idea for astudy.
Yeah.
Yeah.
So my first study, Graced, um,was the same thing.
It was graced with six women inscripture that God rescued,
(03:35):
redeemed, and restored fromsexual brokenness.
And so seen is kind of followingthat pattern of six more women,
but kind of a different sort ofbrokenness, just that feeling of
being invisible and unimportant.
And anyway, this is not about mybook, it's about yours.
So um, tell me why did you writethe book and what's your hope
(03:56):
and your heart behind it?
SPEAKER_03 (03:58):
Yeah, I think that, you know, as a writer, and this
may resonate with you as someonewho writes studies, you're
always observing, you're alwayspaying attention to common
struggles in the church.
And in my own church context,where I've been for a very long
time, and then also travelingaround, speaking, getting into
conversations with women atconferences and retreats, I have
(04:20):
seen a struggle in recent yearsand I have wondered how to
address it.
And it's something I'vestruggled myself with is
Christians who know that Godgenerally loves them, like maybe
even generically loves them.
Oh, I belong to him, sotherefore he has to love me.
He saved me and now I stuck withme.
But really struggling to believein a personal individual love
(04:43):
from God, that God doesn't justlove his people, but he actually
loves me, Glenna or you, Teresa.
So, you know, I see thisproblem, and I have wondered
what is that?
And what how did we get here?
And I think it's maybe anovercorrection of some
theological shifts.
I know that 25 years ago,theologian Don Carson wrote a
(05:04):
book called The DifficultDoctrine of the Love of God.
And it was this very much neededcorrection to that kind of
American Christianized, God islove.
He just wants me to be happy,you know, this very permissive
God loves me, therefore I can dowhatever I want.
Well, that's not it, becausethat's not God's love.
God's love corrects and itrestores and it chastens and it
(05:27):
disciplines and it rescues andit redeems, you know.
Um, and so I think that book,which is a fantastic short
little treatise on the love ofGod, by the way, just a little
commercial for it, but it cameat a time when we really needed
it.
And now I feel like we'veovercorrected to the point that
we are so aware of our kind ofwretchedness before the Lord,
like I'm such a worm, you know,that we've overcorrected and
(05:50):
we're confusing our unworthinessof God's love with
worthlessness.
And that is way too far becauseGod values us.
I mean, we are created in hisimage, he loves us for that
reason.
We have inherent value.
But also when you look at whathe has done for us in Jesus, I
(06:10):
mean, no one loves us like theLord loves us.
And so I wanted to sort of, Idon't know, respond to this
problem that I'm seeing in myown church and a lot of other
churches and even in my ownheart, like feeling like if I am
not good enough, I'm gonna losehis love.
But you can't lose what youcannot earn.
And God's love is not earned, itis given graciously.
(06:32):
And so, how do I address this?
And one day I'm just readingthrough Psalm 139, and it just
washes over me that this is abeautiful treatise on how God
intimately created, is investedin, knows, and loves and
delights in his people.
And so, kind of reading thatwith a gospel lens, it's really
helped me work through what doesit mean for God to delight in
(06:55):
his people?
And as someone who writes, thisis what you do when you're
working through something, youwrite a book on it because you
can't stop talking about it andyou want other people to benefit
from what the Lord has taughtyou.
SPEAKER_01 (07:07):
Yes, that is so beautiful.
I was getting chills whileyou're talking.
I'm like, yes, yes.
Why do you think?
I mean, I know you talked aboutlike theologically there was
this shift, but in a in a morepersonal way, in a way of just
the everyday woman who hasn'tread that book, you know, sure.
(07:27):
Why do you think we struggle somuch to believe, to accept, even
for me?
Like I can stand on a stage andtell women how much God loves
them.
And yet I can struggle with thatin my own heart and really
embracing that for myself.
Why?
SPEAKER_03 (07:46):
I think there's a couple things going on here.
I think, first of all, we are soaware of our shortcomings.
You know, if you have any levelof self-awareness, you see the
ugly side of yourself.
You know the things that you'vedone that you're ashamed of.
And I think that makes youthink, well, God just can't love
this.
You know, I'm such a mess on theinside.
(08:07):
Um, maybe shame for sin issomething that we secretly
harbor and we think that, well,God can forgive her, but maybe
not me for this.
But I think underneath what wehave done when it comes to God's
love is we have imbued hischaracter or put into his
character human versions oflove.
(08:29):
So if we have been poorly lovedby someone, that's maybe how we
view God's love for us.
So, you know, for example, let'ssay you grow up and you did not
have a father who loved youwell, or maybe you didn't have a
father at all and that was inyour life.
And so when it you think of Godin terms of a loving father, you
(08:50):
just have no concept there, oryou have a very poor version.
And so you sort of put intoGod's character what you've seen
or received from people who weresupposed to love you
unconditionally.
And that's why we need to go toGod's word to tell us who he is.
This is his revelation ofhimself.
It's what he wants us to knowabout him.
(09:11):
So when we go to God's word andlet him tell us who he is, then
we can like look at his love andknowledge, which are divine
versions, they're not humanversions.
His knowledge is completelydifferent from ours, his love is
different from ours.
He is able to be all of hischaracter traits perfectly
without denigrating any of theother ones.
We as humans can't do that.
(09:32):
Our love is often tainted byselfishness or pride or anger or
impatience.
I mean, I love my children.
I would step in front of a trainfor either one of them with no
question at all.
But I am gonna fuss at them fortheir messy rooms and I'm gonna
snap an impatience when theydon't, you know, hop to it like
I've told them to.
And God does not do that, he issteadfastly patient.
(09:57):
And so I think our struggle atthe bottom of disbelieving how
he loves us is because we justhave so many flawed experiences
with human love, if that makessense.
SPEAKER_01 (10:08):
Yes, yes.
You're talking a little bitabout God's knowledge and love
and how it differs from ours.
You know, we can think about,well, God knows everything.
Like we know how flawed we are,and certainly he knows how
flawed we are.
So, how does that, how does hisknowledge and love differ from
human knowledge and human love?
SPEAKER_03 (10:31):
So if you think about knowledge, so when like
you and I knowing each other, itis something that happens with
time.
We get to know each other byspending time with each other.
Even if you think about yourchildren, if you have children,
you know them, you've known themtheir whole life.
However, you're still getting toknow them as they sort of
(10:53):
develop in their character.
And as my children, you know, myteenager specifically, mom, you
don't know everything about me.
And, you know, the older hegets, the less I seem to know
him.
I know when he's about 25, he'sgonna think I'm very smart
because that's what happened tome.
I hit my mid-20s and suddenly mymother is brilliant.
Everything she said was true.
But um, you know, in humanrelationships, we have to get to
(11:15):
know people.
But God never had to get to knowyou.
He has known everything aboutyou, every thought you would
think, every word you wouldspeak, every step you would
take, every decision, every sin,every thought, every single
thing.
Before he created the universe,his knowledge has been
exhaustive for eternity past,which is kind of a brain-bending
(11:36):
thing.
But it's not like Godaccumulates knowledge.
So his knowledge is exhaustiveand thorough and complete and
always has been.
That's very different from us.
Um, and his knowledge isdeterminative.
So you can know that an apple isred, but God actually makes the
apple red.
You know, like his knowledge isdivine.
And it's interesting when youthink about Adam and Eve in
(11:59):
Genesis 3 and Satan temptingthem.
He tempted them with God'sknowledge.
If you eat this, then you willbe like God in knowing good from
evil.
And they were not created to beomniscient.
And so, neither, and neitherwere we.
We were not created to knoweverything.
Our minds were not created to bethat way.
When we try to accrue knowledge,we're trying usually to
(12:21):
manipulate outcomes or todistort things.
And yeah, we are human, God isGod, and and the knowledge that
he has is so vastly differentfrom ours.
And that's a good thing becauseyes, he's completely
knowledgeable, but he's alsocompletely good, and that makes
him trustworthy and he's gonnado all things well.
(12:43):
If we had that kind ofknowledge, I'm not sure what
well, when people do, like theytry to control and they're
corrupt, and I mean our sinproblem just taints everything.
And so we can trust his kind ofknowledge because he is so good.
SPEAKER_01 (12:57):
I love what you were saying.
Um, this is kind of a little bitof a rabbit trail, but you were
talking about how we were notmade to know as much as we do.
And I I think the world that welive in and the amount of
information that is pouring intous at and the rate is part of
the problem.
(13:18):
Yeah, agreed.
Humanity, you know, that likewe're not made to hold all of
this, to know everything that weknow.
And I don't know.
Do you have any thoughts aboutthat?
SPEAKER_03 (13:28):
Yeah, sometimes when I am like scrolling on my phone,
I just have to put it down andthink, I was not created to have
this kind of information.
I don't need news from theentire world, plus someone's
morning to evening routine of aperson I've never met, you know,
plus every criticism or argumenton social media, all held in
(13:49):
this little glowing thing in myhand, it produces a lot of
anxiety and discontentment andfrustration and impatience.
And my brain was not made forthis.
And so I just, you know, I thinkabout um I'm reminded suddenly
of the story of the Tower ofBabel in Genesis, of man trying
to reach the heavens.
(14:10):
And there's so much pride intrying to be all and to know all
and to have all the power.
We just were not created forthis.
And I don't really know whatpoint I'm coming to, except to
say that it is good for us toknow our limitations and to
function within the limitationsthat God has given us.
SPEAKER_01 (14:28):
Yeah.
Yeah, I just thought I'd throwthat out there because it's just
part of it's part of scripturethat that I liked how you said
that that was how Satan temptedthem with the knowledge.
Like you will know.
Um, so we're talking about Psalm139, and I have more questions
about it.
And I was thinking originally,like, let's read it at the end
(14:49):
to close out the episode, butI'm thinking it might be nice to
read it now.
Yeah.
Just because as we're talkingabout it, maybe somebody hasn't
read it right recently and theydon't even know what Psalm 139
is about.
So why don't we read it now andthen we'll continue discussing
it.
So if you'll read it for us, Iwill.
SPEAKER_03 (15:09):
It's 24 verses, and it kind of sits in about three
distinct parts.
Um, so I'll read throughstarting with Psalm 139, verse
1.
Oh Lord, you have searched meand known me.
You know, when I sit down andwhen I rise up, you discern my
thoughts from afar.
You search out my path and mylying down and are acquainted
with all my ways.
(15:29):
Even before a word is on mytongue, behold, O Lord, you know
it altogether.
You hem me in behind and before,and you lay your hand upon me.
Such knowledge is too wonderfulfor me, it is high, I cannot
attain it.
Where shall I go from yourspirit, or where shall I flee
from your presence?
If I ascend to heaven, you arethere.
If I make my bed and sheol, youare there.
(15:49):
If I take the wings of themorning and dwell in the
uttermost parts of the sea, eventhere your hand shall lead me,
and your right hand shall holdme.
If I say, Surely the darknessshall cover me, and the light
about me be night, even thedarkness is not dark to you.
The night is bright as the day,for darkness is as light with
you.
For you formed my inward parts,you knitted me together in my
(16:11):
mother's womb.
I praise you, for I'm fearfullyand wonderfully made.
Wonderful are your works, mysoul knows it very well.
My frame was not hidden from youwhen I was being made in secret,
intricately woven in the depthsof the earth.
Your eyes saw my unformedsubstance.
In your book were written, everyone of them, the days that were
formed for me, when as yet therewas none of them.
(16:33):
How precious to me are yourthoughts, O God, how vast is the
sum of them.
If I would count them, they aremore than the sand.
I awake and I am still with you.
Oh, that you would slay thewicked, O God, O men of blood,
depart from me.
They speak against you withmalicious intent.
Your enemies take your name invain.
Do I not hate those who hateyou, O Lord?
(16:54):
And do I not loathe those whorise up against you?
I hate them with completehatred.
I count them my enemies.
Search me, O God, and know myheart.
Try me and know my thoughts, andsee if there be any grievous way
in me and lead me in the wayeverlasting.
SPEAKER_01 (17:11):
Oh my goodness.
So much.
So much.
Do you have a favorite verse ortwo in Psalm 139?
SPEAKER_03 (17:18):
I know it's um, yeah, it's hard to pick.
Um, but I will say one that Ihave loved for a long time is
verse 5.
You hem me in behind and before,you lay your hand upon me.
And the reason being is that Ithink that one of the ways that
God communicates love to hispeople, if you are to walk
through the whole story ofscripture, he communicates love
(17:40):
through presence, throughcommitting to be with his people
no matter what.
So if you go through the storyof the Old Testament, you have
God uh dwelling his manifestpresence with the people of
Israel, you know, in coming outof Egypt.
And then you have the thetabernacle and then the temple,
and then everything changeschanges when Jesus comes and
(18:02):
walks the earth physically, andthen things change again when
Jesus ascends to heaven afterhis resurrection and sends the
Holy Spirit a Pentecost.
And you have God who loves hispeople by surrounding them with
his presence.
I just think that is such abeautiful and encouraging truth.
And so that verse, you know,really verses five through 10
where he talks about there'sjust nowhere I can go that
(18:26):
you're not gonna be there.
And you get this picture thatDavid kind of paints
geographically.
If I go up to the heavens, if Igo down to Sheol, the grave,
you're there.
And then he says, if I take thewings of the morning while the
sun rises in the east.
And then he says, if I go to thefar side of the sea, which for
him would have been theMediterranean, which would have
(18:46):
been west.
So he kind of spans his arms outas far as you could go, you're
right there with me, and yourright hand holds me fast.
I just love the imagery ofHebrew poetry, really.
It just paints a beautifulpicture that there is nowhere we
can go.
And that just gives me so muchcomfort.
SPEAKER_00 (19:04):
Yes.
SPEAKER_01 (19:05):
I think that particular verse is my favorite,
the one that says, if I rise onthe wings of the dawn, if I
settle on the far side of thissea, even there, your hand will
lead me, your right hand willhold me fast.
And I've thought about that notjust for me, but my some of my
kids are pretty adventurous andthey've gone to the far side of
(19:26):
the sea, the other side of theearth.
And whenever they have traveled,I remember the first time two of
my kids were going to Africa.
And I'm I'm watching online thislittle like map of the airplane
going across the globe.
And I was like, I didn't knowhow far away this was.
And that verse came to my mindthat for my kids, even if they
(19:49):
go to the far side of the sea,like God's hand is guiding, he's
with them.
And I and I loved everything yousaid about presence and oh, it's
so beautiful.
It's such an amazing psalm.
So, listener, if you don't knowPsalm 139, it is a great one to
just soak in, to memorize, tomeditate on.
Um, but when when you read thatpsalm, it kind of sounds like
(20:12):
it's about us, and it alsosounds like it's about God.
So, which is it?
Is it about us or is it aboutGod?
SPEAKER_03 (20:18):
I mean, I think it you could say yes, it's about
both of us, but I mean, becausescripture is God's revelation of
himself, it's first about him.
I mean, when you read it atfirst glance, this particular
psalm, you see the the umpronouns used.
David's like, when I sit, when Irise, when I'm here, when I'm
there.
But ultimately what he's doingis he's casting us back to, you
(20:41):
know, you've searched, you'rehere, you're there, you're
everywhere, you him mean.
And he really turns you to, Imean, I think God is the hero of
the psalm, as he is in it in allof scripture.
This is David telling us, youknow, this is who I am, but the
only way I have knowledge ofmyself is through knowledge of
who God is first.
And that's really, you know, ifwe want true knowledge of who we
(21:03):
are, scripture tells us, butit's helpful for us to first
look at scripture through thelens of who is God here?
What is he revealing to us abouthimself?
When we see him in his proper umplace, then we can see ourselves
in our proper place.
And so ultimately, I think thispsalm is about the God who knows
all and the God who delights inhis children.
SPEAKER_01 (21:25):
Love it.
Yes, yes, that's a great answer.
Yes, the answer is yes.
The answer is yes.
Um, what about the person whofeels like there's so much
shame?
Like Glenna, you don't know mystory.
You don't know what I've done orwhat's been done to me, or the
this podcast, we talk a lotabout brokenness.
(21:47):
We talk, you know, the listener,any listener has things in their
life that they're ashamed of orthey're hiding, or they feel
like, how can God really loveme?
Like, what would you say theperson who feels like, yeah,
God's love is good for you, yougood people out there, but not
(22:07):
for someone like me.
SPEAKER_03 (22:09):
Yeah.
Well, first of all, I would sayscripture teaches that there's
no one who is good, truly.
No one seeks after God.
The real hero of scripture isthat is God who seeks people and
makes them his children, andthey were his enemies.
And that's all of us.
We all start off as enemies ofGod.
Paul tells us very clearly inColossians, he describes us as
(22:31):
being alienated and hostile inmind, doing evil deeds.
In Ephesians, he says we're deadin our sins.
And there's no real hierarchywhen it comes to sin.
If you have failed in one pointof God's law, you're guilty of
failing all of it.
God's word is very clear.
So while some of our sin mayfeel more shameful, there are
(22:52):
some areas of sin, you know, I'mthinking of sexual sin,
particularly where people carryso much shame.
While it may seem that way, allsin is an offense against God.
And so, you know, I am coming toyou as a person who's been a
believer in Jesus for most of mylife.
And so some of the worst thingsthat I have done and thought and
(23:13):
said have been done and thoughtand said as a professing
Christian.
And that brings another kind ofshame where the enemy may say to
you, God could never forgive youfor that.
What the enemy says to me is,how can you call yourself a
Christian after doing this?
And so shame can take a lot ofdifferent forms.
The thing about shame is thatshame lies to us and says to us
(23:37):
that we can't be forgiven orthat we can't truly walk with
Jesus because we've done this.
But I, you know, again, God'sword says to us, there is no
condemnation for those who arein Christ Jesus because Jesus
took it all at the cross.
So the question you have to askis, is Jesus' blood enough to
cover my sin?
And if you think it's enough tocover everyone else's sin but
(24:00):
yours, that's actually a prideproblem.
You're saying that you're anexception to the gospel.
But what Jesus says, if the Sonhas set you free, you are free
indeed.
And again, in 1 John 1, Johntells us that if you um confess
your sin, he is faithful andalso just.
Like it's right for him toforgive your sin and to cleanse
(24:23):
you from unrighteousness.
No one's an exception to theblood of Jesus.
It is powerful, it is enough tosave us and save us completely.
And so when we are still holdingon to feelings of shame for sin
that Jesus has paid for, this iswhen we have to preach the
gospel again to ourselves.
The gospel saves us, but it alsosanctifies us.
(24:44):
And we have to, we, we shouldtake those feelings and we
should run to the Lord, notcower and shame away from him.
He's the one who's dealt withour sin.
So where else are we going to gowith it?
You know, he's the one we shouldrun to.
I think of that parable thatJesus told of the prodigal son
who squandered his inheritance,and then he comes crawling back,
(25:05):
thinking he'll be a servant inhis father's house.
And what does he find his fatherdoing?
Standing there waiting for him.
And then when he sees him, thefather runs.
And and we are supposed to viewour father like that father.
But we run to him with our sin.
We run to him with our shame.
Who else is going to dress us inrobes of righteousness?
(25:27):
And so uh we should not listento shame, but we should just run
to the Lord with it.
SPEAKER_01 (25:33):
Yes, and amen.
Love that.
You're um, I did a series lastyear called the Shame to Shining
series, and that that isresonating with me, just that
whole message about the that thecross is enough.
It's enough for every sin andfor us to for us to come to the
cross and say, Yeah, but it'snot enough for me.
(25:55):
It's exactly right.
Like you said, that's pride.
It's it's it's a backwards formof pride, but it is pride.
It's saying to Jesus, thank you,but it's but it wasn't enough.
And how can we dare say that hissacrifice on the cross was not
enough?
Yes.
Um of us, uh oh wait, no, no,no.
(26:17):
Sorry.
I'm going to I have questioneight here, and I think that
this one what came from your umsheet.
And I'm gonna edit this righthere, but it says some of our
doubt about God's love for us isrooted in a desire to matter and
be remembered in this life.
How should God's care for usshape how we think about the
(26:38):
years God has given us on theearth?
SPEAKER_03 (26:40):
Is that your is that um that is more of a that comes
from one of the chapters in thebook that stems from um kind of
an innate desire to matter, butwhat if we live really small
lives?
Like, do our lives matter?
You're welcome to skip that andmove on to something else if you
want to.
SPEAKER_01 (26:55):
I'm concept.
Um what are we?
We we're good on time.
Um, but now that I understandthe the context of the question,
I'll just go ahead and ask it.
SPEAKER_03 (27:06):
Okay.
SPEAKER_01 (27:06):
Okay, so I have another question.
A lot of us, you know, we wantwe want to be seen, we want to
be known.
That's a God-given desire, andyet so many of us live very
small, maybe seeminglyinsignificant lives.
How can God's love for us, hiscare for us, shape the way we
(27:27):
view our lives, even our small,little, seemingly insignificant
lives?
SPEAKER_03 (27:33):
I think that the time in which we live right now
in the 21st century, living inthe American culture of the
West, I think we feel a lot ofpressure to live big, famous,
flashy existences, you know,where we've left this big mark
on the world.
I think maybe in the time that,you know, Psalm 139 was written,
(27:56):
most people were nobodies.
And there was no way to be knownaround the world necessarily.
I mean, David would have been anexception, but really just in
that part of the world where helived.
And um, but I think for us,because the world is made small
by social media and the internetand things like that, uh, we
want to be known by everyone.
(28:18):
But what really matters is thatwe are known by God.
And so the call that God hasgiven us as Christians, you
know, what we want to hear whenwe die and we close our eyes to
this life and open our eyes toour eternal life with Him, what
we want to hear is, Well done,my good and faithful servant.
And faithfulness is not bound byfame or wealth or influence or
(28:41):
popularity.
We don't need the Lord to say,Well done, my good and
accomplished servant, or welldone, my good and wealthy
servant, or well done, my goodand famous servant, but just
faithfulness.
And faithfulness is a commandand a fruit of the spirit, and
that can be lived out in anycontext, whether the Lord has
(29:02):
given you a large sphere ofinfluence, or whether you live
in virtual anonymity, justplugging along in a menial job
with us, you know, in your housewith your family or your town or
your small local church or yourco-workers where you live.
The call to faithfulness can belived out anywhere.
And because your life alreadymatters to the Lord, where he
(29:24):
has placed you with whateversize sphere of influence, your
obedience is to be faithful withwhat he's given you.
And that's really it.
And so, you know, I think oflike, um I think of my
grandparents, all mygrandparents were first
generation believers.
And so, you know, their faith inJesus kind of bent the direction
that the family tree grew in ina completely different way.
(29:46):
And yet, my grandparents wereordinary people, you know, a
homemaker, a chiropractor, anelectrician, you know, like
these were ordinary people.
No one would ever know theirnames outside of where they
live.
Lived at their time, but theywere people who loved Jesus and
they loved his word and theyloved the local church and they
(30:07):
raised their children to believein Jesus.
And then the next generation, myparents, raised their children
to believe in Jesus.
My parents aren't famous or wellknown.
They have ordinary jobs,ordinary people.
And then now my siblings and I,like we're raising all of our
children to know and love Jesus.
And I think these are ordinarysmall lives that have eternal,
(30:28):
eternal ripple effects.
And I just think no matter whereyou've placed you, where God has
placed you, if you are faithfuland just obedient and you love
Jesus just day in and day out,and you're seeking to follow
him, man, that is eternallyimpactful.
And that is that is plenty.
That is enough.
That's all God's called you tois faithfulness, where he's
(30:49):
placed you.
SPEAKER_01 (30:50):
Yes, I love that.
I just want to, I just want tolisten to you talk because
everything you're saying, myheart is going, yes, yes.
I think about Ruth.
You know, her story is she wassuch an ordinary person.
You know, we we read her storyand we're like, Ruth, you know,
she she did this epic thing oftraveling with Naomi.
(31:11):
And and yet she would never haveknown her role.
All of the women in the line ofJesus, all the people in the
line of Jesus, like they werejust living their faithful
lives, knowing God, being knownby Him, and they weren't out
there trying to be famous.
I don't, I don't know if thatwas a thing back then.
(31:32):
I mean, maybe it was in somecapacity, but not like it is
today, not like it is like it isfor us.
And so you have this wholescripture filled with people who
lived ordinary, faithful lives,and and we're now reading their
stories, and we're now saying,wow, look at what God did, look
at the extraordinary things,look at the way he used Ruth and
(31:55):
Naomi, these widows, thesenobodies in their town to impact
the kingdom of God.
And so I love that.
I love that.
All right, there is a part ofthe psalm.
I know what part it is.
It's like, what in the world?
So it's verses 19 to 22, whereyou know, David is praising God,
(32:19):
you know me, you love me, you'vemade me.
And then all of a sudden he'slike, Slay the wicked away from
me, you bloodthirsty men.
I hate the people who hate you.
So let's talk about um what itkind of feels out of place.
It does.
What in the world is thisportion of the psalm about?
And how does it get?
SPEAKER_03 (32:40):
Yes.
So this is an imprecatoryprayer, otherwise known as a
prayer of cursing.
And it feels wildly out of placeat first glance.
In fact, someone said to merecently uh in an interview like
this, you know, I was memorizingPsalm 139 and then I stopped
when I got to that weird part.
It's like, don't we all?
We have like verses 13 and 14 ona coffee mug.
(33:01):
Nobody's putting, oh, that youwould slay the wicked on a
coffee mug.
You know, you're not gonnaInstagram that.
So what is this doing here?
Well, at first it seems out ofplace, but what you have here,
now let me just define animprecatory prayer.
What it is, is it's a prayer forGod to bring about what he has
already said will happen tothose who continually reject
him.
(33:21):
So, for an example, um, in Psalmone, I think verse four or five,
David, or it's not David, butthe psalmist says um that the
wicked are like chaff that thewind drives away, and that
therefore they will not be apart of God's congregation of
his people.
They will not stand with thecongregation of the righteous
(33:41):
and they will perish.
And it's a statement of fact.
And in using that chaff analogy,he's saying there's no root,
there's no fruitfulness.
He's comparing them to therighteous man who love God's who
loves God's law and is like atree that's firmly rooted by a
stream.
And he is always flourishing, heis faithful because he's being
fed by God's word.
(34:01):
So you have this kind of pictureof deeply rooted,
inconsequential, then piece ofchaff that floats away on the
wind.
So that's Psalm one.
The wicked are like chaff.
It's a statement.
Then you go to Psalm 35, whichis an imprecatory psalm.
It's a cursing psalm where Davidsays, Let the wicked be as
chaff.
(34:21):
And so what he's praying thereis that the wicked would be,
those who reject God, would bewhat God has said ultimately
they will be.
So he's praying for God to bringhis judgment about.
And so that's essentially whatan imprecatory prayer is: like,
Lord, would you bring about thisthing that you have already said
will happen?
So interestingly, we prayimprecatory prayers all the time
(34:42):
without realizing it.
So when you pray, and I'm sureyou have, and I'm sure your
listeners have prayed, come,Lord Jesus.
And we pray that all the timebecause we see all of the things
happening in the world, and yousee godlessness and uh violence
and oppression and uhcorruption, and you pray, come,
Lord Jesus, and you're prayingas you should, for the Lord to
(35:04):
come and to make all thingsright and to give us our
resurrection bodies and to takeus to the new creation.
But when we pray that, we'reactually praying for him to
bring judgment on those who haverejected him.
There's a verse in Revelation 14that says, uh, when Jesus comes,
and we're, you know, make thingsright.
Well, he is, he's gonna come andhe's gonna judge the earth.
(35:26):
And in Revelation 14, it saysthat the blood of the wine press
of God's wrath will be like 180plus miles long, like that's how
long this river of blood is, andas deep as a horse is tall.
This is what happens whenjudgment happens.
I mean, it's like a reallygruesome passage.
And so when we pray veryinnocently, oh, come Lord Jesus,
(35:49):
we're actually praying for Jesusto enact judgment on the wicked.
And it feels very wrong, butit's not wrong to pray for God
to bring about justice becauseGod loves justice and he hates
oppression.
That's very clear in scripture.
So when you get to this sectionin Psalm 139, you're like,
what's happening here?
Well, think about it.
David has praised God for hisintimate care and investment.
(36:12):
He has praised God for howcarefully he makes human life.
Then you get to verse uh 19, andhe said, he calls the wicked, oh
men of blood.
These are men who are sheddingblood, they are taking human
life, which is something thatGod values.
And so they are doing this, andit is in complete uh opposite of
(36:35):
what God would have them do.
So, what David's saying is, Youhave made me, you know me, you
love me, I'm with you.
Like your enemies are myenemies.
I am aligning myself in loyaltyto you, Lord.
And so I hate these men who lovewhat you hate and hate what you
love.
It's just they are polaropposite of you, but I'm gonna
(36:56):
love what you love and I'm gonnahate what you hate.
So he's aligning himself withGod in loyalty.
And I think that's the rightresponse, you know.
If God has done all of thesethings for you, you belong to
him, and therefore you need toalign and submit yourself to his
desires.
But at the same time, we are NewTestament Christians.
You know, we are living on thisside of the cross and we know
(37:17):
Jesus who said, Love yourenemies and pray for those who
persecute you.
And so it's like, which one isit?
Do we pray the impregatory curseor do we love our enemies?
And I would say we do both.
Because, you know, when you seemass injustice, like I don't
know if you're aware of what'shappening.
Our Nigerian brothers andsisters are being slaughtered by
the thousands simply forbelieving in Jesus.
(37:40):
I mean, they the persecutionhappening in the Nigerian church
right now is just an atrocity.
So when I look at the news and Isee this, my prayer is, Lord,
cut off the arm of the wicked,to use kind of a psalmic
language, you know, and I'mpraying for those oppressors to
be stopped.
Now, in my flesh, I want to say,Lord, just you know, annihilate
(38:02):
all of them.
But the thing is that we have toremember is that we were all
enemies of God.
That's where we all start.
And and he sent Jesus to move usfrom enemy to friend and to
daughter and son, and we'regonna share Christ's inheritance
for eternity.
So when I pray, Lord, cut offthe arm of the wicked,
ultimately what I should prayis, Lord, save the wicked, save
(38:24):
the wicked, shine the light ofthe gospel into their lives and
give them faith to believe.
And if they will not, then endtheir reach as oppressors.
And we have to go back to thattruth that because God is
all-knowing, he knows allmotives, he knows all hearts,
he's sovereign, he's good,therefore he's gonna handle this
(38:46):
the right way.
We don't take vengeance, hehandles vengeance because he
will do it right and he will doits best.
And in the end, Jesus willreturn and right every wrong.
And so it's a little complicatedand layered, but I think when it
comes to a prayer like this, asChristians who know the whole
gospel story, we know who wewere, we know what God has done
in our lives.
We pray for justice and mercy.
(39:08):
And I I think we pray for both.
And so we we leave God to handlethings as He will see fit, but
we should always long for everylost soul to come to faith in
Jesus and be reconciled to God.
SPEAKER_01 (39:20):
Yeah, yeah.
Justice and mercy.
I mean, you you see that Jesusis the perfection of grace and
truth.
Yeah.
You know, and and and that'swhat that is.
It's justice and mercy, allwrapped in one.
I love the way you put that, andthat kind of helps us kind of
put those verses in context andmake a little sense out of that
(39:40):
where you're right.
I I have memorized one Psalm139, and I get to that and I'm
like, I don't know what I'mdoing here.
SPEAKER_02 (39:48):
It feels so weird coming out of your mouth.
Oh, that you would slay thewicked.
SPEAKER_03 (39:52):
But you know, that's why we read the Old Testament
and the Psalms particularly witha gospel lens.
We should always look forChrist.
I mean, he said in John 5.39that the law and the prophets
are about him, that scripture isabout him.
And so we need to read scripturewith him and what he has done
for us at the cross and mine.
And I think it helps us makesense of verses like these.
SPEAKER_01 (40:14):
Yes.
Oh my goodness.
Glenn, I feel like we could talkfor hours, but we could.
We need to wrap up a little bit.
Um, where can people find youand connect with you?
SPEAKER_03 (40:24):
Yeah, so I have a website.
It's like a good old-fashionedblog from like the early 2000s
because I'm 44 and I'mstruggling to like make leaps to
other areas on the internet.
Um, so I it's justglennamarshall.com and I write
there not as much when I'mworking on a book, which I am
right now.
So, but uh on social media, I'mat Glena D.
Marshall.
(40:45):
That's probably the place I'mmost active on the social media
platforms.
SPEAKER_01 (40:48):
I'll have links in the show notes.
I always will have links.
Um, and I'll have links to yourbooks as well.
Um, but in closing, would youspeak to the listener who has a
hard time believing that Godreally knows everything about
them and loves them with thatdeep and perfect love?
SPEAKER_03 (41:12):
I would say if you doubt that God knows you
completely and therefore couldpossibly love you completely, I
want to, because I and I'vealready said this, I want you to
read God's word looking forthose truths because it is so
easy to look at your life andmaybe look at the things you
don't have, or maybe the thingsthat have happened to you, and
(41:32):
to let your life experience tellyou what you think is true about
God.
But God's word is true and it istruth and it transcends even our
experiences and and really canhelp us interpret our life
experiences correctly.
I think so often we look at whathappens to us and we say, well,
this, you know, I didn't getthis, therefore God must not
(41:52):
love me, or this happened to meand I didn't want it to,
therefore, God must not love me.
But if we start with scriptureas our absolute truth and we see
that God is the source of loveand we let that be the lens
through which we view our lifeexperiences, then it kind of
flips the script.
And so we start with the premiseGod is good and he does good,
(42:14):
Psalm 119, 68.
We start there and then we lookat our lives and the things that
we don't have or the things thathappen to us, and we start with,
well, I know God is good, I knowhe loves me.
Therefore, if he has allowedthis, he will somehow redeem it
and recycle it for my good andfor his glory.
And I may not see it in thislife, but I'll see it in the one
to come.
So let God's word be the lensthrough which you view and come
(42:38):
to believe what is true abouthim.
SPEAKER_01 (42:41):
Yes, yes, and amen.
And thank you, thank you so muchfor having this conversation
with me on beauty and thebrokenness.
Absolutely.
So happy to do it.
Well, welcome friends.
I'm excited to introduce you tomy guest today.
I am speaking with GlennaMarshall.
Glenna is a writer and speakerwho loves to lead others into a
deeper discovery of scripture.
She is the author of four books,The Mom of Two Sons, and she is
a member of Grace BibleFellowship in Sykeston,
(00:22):
Missouri, where she and herhusband have served for 20
years.
So welcome, Glenna, and thanksfor being here.
Thanks.
I'm happy to be here and to chatwith you today.
Awesome.
Before we get started in some ofthe questions I have, um, would
you just tell the listeners alittle bit more about who you
are and the work that you do?
SPEAKER_03 (00:41):
Yeah, well, I am married to my pastor.
So I am a pastor's wife, and alot of our life is really
entrenched in local churchministry.
I lead a women's Bible studyevery week.
And then I, in the last maybeyear or so, took on discipling
the teenage girls at our church,which is not something I really
(01:02):
ever saw myself doing becauseI'm a boy mom just down to the
core, but I love it so much.
Like being around teenage girls,I just remember the drama of my
junior high and high schoolyears, and everything is
incredibly stressful for them.
And so I love that they let meinto their life.
And I just want it's a reallybright spot of ministry in my
(01:25):
life right now.
And actually, I'm headed theretonight to meet with our teenage
girls and we're just walkingthrough scriptures and
chit-chatting about stuff.
So that brings me a lot of joy.
And then um, I my actual work,work, pay work, would be uh
writing books and uh travelingas an as a speaker to women's
conferences and retreats.
And I just love to teach God'sword.
(01:46):
I love to open up to a chapterand walk through it.
And I have been changed bystudying God's word, and I want
that for other Christians somuch.
So I feel like if there's asubtext to anything I have
written, it is please, please,please read your Bibles.
So yeah, so I feel like that'smy life mission.
I'm gonna make you love God'sword if I can.
SPEAKER_01 (02:08):
Yes, yes, I love that.
I love that.
I feel like we have a lot incommon just in your passion,
your mission, and I'm alsopastor's wife.
So have that in common too.
Yeah.
So you, your most recent book,it is called Known and Loved,
Experiencing the Affection ofGod in Psalm 139.
(02:29):
And I love, love, love Psalm139.
We are in the midst of a serieson the podcast called the Seen
Series.
And so I'm I'm in the middle ofwriting a Bible study.
I have a passion like you.
Like, I want the Bible to comealive for people.
I want them to read it.
Um, but what I do is I'm takingthe life of six different women
in scripture that may have feltunseen or invisible or
(02:54):
marginalized.
And in every chapter on dayfour, I always include a psalm,
a psalm that that woman mighthave related to or have it kind
of encapsulates her life.
And I love Psalm 139 for Hagarbecause Oh wow, yeah.
She says, You are the God whosees me.
(03:14):
And this is a psalm all aboutbeing seen and known.
And so when I saw your book, Iwas like, let's have a
conversation about Psalm 139.
Yeah.
So I love that.
That's a beautiful idea for astudy.
Yeah.
Yeah.
So my first study, Graced, um,was the same thing.
It was graced with six women inscripture that God rescued,
(03:35):
redeemed, and restored fromsexual brokenness.
And so seen is kind of followingthat pattern of six more women,
but kind of a different sort ofbrokenness, just that feeling of
being invisible and unimportant.
And anyway, this is not about mybook, it's about yours.
So um, tell me why did you writethe book and what's your hope
(03:56):
and your heart behind it?
SPEAKER_03 (03:58):
Yeah, I think that, you know, as a writer, and this
may resonate with you as someonewho writes studies, you're
always observing, you're alwayspaying attention to common
struggles in the church.
And in my own church context,where I've been for a very long
time, and then also travelingaround, speaking, getting into
conversations with women atconferences and retreats, I have
(04:20):
seen a struggle in recent yearsand I have wondered how to
address it.
And it's something I'vestruggled myself with is
Christians who know that Godgenerally loves them, like maybe
even generically loves them.
Oh, I belong to him, sotherefore he has to love me.
He saved me and now I stuck withme.
But really struggling to believein a personal individual love
(04:43):
from God, that God doesn't justlove his people, but he actually
loves me, Glenna or you, Teresa.
So, you know, I see thisproblem, and I have wondered
what is that?
And what how did we get here?
And I think it's maybe anovercorrection of some
theological shifts.
I know that 25 years ago,theologian Don Carson wrote a
(05:04):
book called The DifficultDoctrine of the Love of God.
And it was this very much neededcorrection to that kind of
American Christianized, God islove.
He just wants me to be happy,you know, this very permissive
God loves me, therefore I can dowhatever I want.
Well, that's not it, becausethat's not God's love.
God's love corrects and itrestores and it chastens and it
(05:27):
disciplines and it rescues andit redeems, you know.
Um, and so I think that book,which is a fantastic short
little treatise on the love ofGod, by the way, just a little
commercial for it, but it cameat a time when we really needed
it.
And now I feel like we'veovercorrected to the point that
we are so aware of our kind ofwretchedness before the Lord,
like I'm such a worm, you know,that we've overcorrected and
(05:50):
we're confusing our unworthinessof God's love with
worthlessness.
And that is way too far becauseGod values us.
I mean, we are created in hisimage, he loves us for that
reason.
We have inherent value.
But also when you look at whathe has done for us in Jesus, I
(06:10):
mean, no one loves us like theLord loves us.
And so I wanted to sort of, Idon't know, respond to this
problem that I'm seeing in myown church and a lot of other
churches and even in my ownheart, like feeling like if I am
not good enough, I'm gonna losehis love.
But you can't lose what youcannot earn.
And God's love is not earned, itis given graciously.
(06:32):
And so, how do I address this?
And one day I'm just readingthrough Psalm 139, and it just
washes over me that this is abeautiful treatise on how God
intimately created, is investedin, knows, and loves and
delights in his people.
And so, kind of reading thatwith a gospel lens, it's really
helped me work through what doesit mean for God to delight in
(06:55):
his people?
And as someone who writes, thisis what you do when you're
working through something, youwrite a book on it because you
can't stop talking about it andyou want other people to benefit
from what the Lord has taughtyou.
SPEAKER_01 (07:07):
Yes, that is so beautiful.
I was getting chills whileyou're talking.
I'm like, yes, yes.
Why do you think?
I mean, I know you talked aboutlike theologically there was
this shift, but in a in a morepersonal way, in a way of just
the everyday woman who hasn'tread that book, you know, sure.
(07:27):
Why do you think we struggle somuch to believe, to accept, even
for me?
Like I can stand on a stage andtell women how much God loves
them.
And yet I can struggle with thatin my own heart and really
embracing that for myself.
Why?
SPEAKER_03 (07:46):
I think there's a couple things going on here.
I think, first of all, we are soaware of our shortcomings.
You know, if you have any levelof self-awareness, you see the
ugly side of yourself.
You know the things that you'vedone that you're ashamed of.
And I think that makes youthink, well, God just can't love
this.
You know, I'm such a mess on theinside.
(08:07):
Um, maybe shame for sin issomething that we secretly
harbor and we think that, well,God can forgive her, but maybe
not me for this.
But I think underneath what wehave done when it comes to God's
love is we have imbued hischaracter or put into his
character human versions oflove.
(08:29):
So if we have been poorly lovedby someone, that's maybe how we
view God's love for us.
So, you know, for example, let'ssay you grow up and you did not
have a father who loved youwell, or maybe you didn't have a
father at all and that was inyour life.
And so when it you think of Godin terms of a loving father, you
(08:50):
just have no concept there, oryou have a very poor version.
And so you sort of put intoGod's character what you've seen
or received from people who weresupposed to love you
unconditionally.
And that's why we need to go toGod's word to tell us who he is.
This is his revelation ofhimself.
It's what he wants us to knowabout him.
(09:11):
So when we go to God's word andlet him tell us who he is, then
we can like look at his love andknowledge, which are divine
versions, they're not humanversions.
His knowledge is completelydifferent from ours, his love is
different from ours.
He is able to be all of hischaracter traits perfectly
without denigrating any of theother ones.
We as humans can't do that.
(09:32):
Our love is often tainted byselfishness or pride or anger or
impatience.
I mean, I love my children.
I would step in front of a trainfor either one of them with no
question at all.
But I am gonna fuss at them fortheir messy rooms and I'm gonna
snap an impatience when theydon't, you know, hop to it like
I've told them to.
And God does not do that, he issteadfastly patient.
(09:57):
And so I think our struggle atthe bottom of disbelieving how
he loves us is because we justhave so many flawed experiences
with human love, if that makessense.
SPEAKER_01 (10:08):
Yes, yes.
You're talking a little bitabout God's knowledge and love
and how it differs from ours.
You know, we can think about,well, God knows everything.
Like we know how flawed we are,and certainly he knows how
flawed we are.
So, how does that, how does hisknowledge and love differ from
human knowledge and human love?
SPEAKER_03 (10:31):
So if you think about knowledge, so when like
you and I knowing each other, itis something that happens with
time.
We get to know each other byspending time with each other.
Even if you think about yourchildren, if you have children,
you know them, you've known themtheir whole life.
However, you're still getting toknow them as they sort of
(10:53):
develop in their character.
And as my children, you know, myteenager specifically, mom, you
don't know everything about me.
And, you know, the older hegets, the less I seem to know
him.
I know when he's about 25, he'sgonna think I'm very smart
because that's what happened tome.
I hit my mid-20s and suddenly mymother is brilliant.
Everything she said was true.
But um, you know, in humanrelationships, we have to get to
(11:15):
know people.
But God never had to get to knowyou.
He has known everything aboutyou, every thought you would
think, every word you wouldspeak, every step you would
take, every decision, every sin,every thought, every single
thing.
Before he created the universe,his knowledge has been
exhaustive for eternity past,which is kind of a brain-bending
(11:36):
thing.
But it's not like Godaccumulates knowledge.
So his knowledge is exhaustiveand thorough and complete and
always has been.
That's very different from us.
Um, and his knowledge isdeterminative.
So you can know that an apple isred, but God actually makes the
apple red.
You know, like his knowledge isdivine.
And it's interesting when youthink about Adam and Eve in
(11:59):
Genesis 3 and Satan temptingthem.
He tempted them with God'sknowledge.
If you eat this, then you willbe like God in knowing good from
evil.
And they were not created to beomniscient.
And so, neither, and neitherwere we.
We were not created to knoweverything.
Our minds were not created to bethat way.
When we try to accrue knowledge,we're trying usually to
(12:21):
manipulate outcomes or todistort things.
And yeah, we are human, God isGod, and and the knowledge that
he has is so vastly differentfrom ours.
And that's a good thing becauseyes, he's completely
knowledgeable, but he's alsocompletely good, and that makes
him trustworthy and he's gonnado all things well.
(12:43):
If we had that kind ofknowledge, I'm not sure what
well, when people do, like theytry to control and they're
corrupt, and I mean our sinproblem just taints everything.
And so we can trust his kind ofknowledge because he is so good.
SPEAKER_01 (12:57):
I love what you were saying.
Um, this is kind of a little bitof a rabbit trail, but you were
talking about how we were notmade to know as much as we do.
And I I think the world that welive in and the amount of
information that is pouring intous at and the rate is part of
the problem.
(13:18):
Yeah, agreed.
Humanity, you know, that likewe're not made to hold all of
this, to know everything that weknow.
And I don't know.
Do you have any thoughts aboutthat?
SPEAKER_03 (13:28):
Yeah, sometimes when I am like scrolling on my phone,
I just have to put it down andthink, I was not created to have
this kind of information.
I don't need news from theentire world, plus someone's
morning to evening routine of aperson I've never met, you know,
plus every criticism or argumenton social media, all held in
(13:49):
this little glowing thing in myhand, it produces a lot of
anxiety and discontentment andfrustration and impatience.
And my brain was not made forthis.
And so I just, you know, I thinkabout um I'm reminded suddenly
of the story of the Tower ofBabel in Genesis, of man trying
to reach the heavens.
(14:10):
And there's so much pride intrying to be all and to know all
and to have all the power.
We just were not created forthis.
And I don't really know whatpoint I'm coming to, except to
say that it is good for us toknow our limitations and to
function within the limitationsthat God has given us.
SPEAKER_01 (14:28):
Yeah.
Yeah, I just thought I'd throwthat out there because it's just
part of it's part of scripturethat that I liked how you said
that that was how Satan temptedthem with the knowledge.
Like you will know.
Um, so we're talking about Psalm139, and I have more questions
about it.
And I was thinking originally,like, let's read it at the end
(14:49):
to close out the episode, butI'm thinking it might be nice to
read it now.
Yeah.
Just because as we're talkingabout it, maybe somebody hasn't
read it right recently and theydon't even know what Psalm 139
is about.
So why don't we read it now andthen we'll continue discussing
it.
So if you'll read it for us, Iwill.
SPEAKER_03 (15:09):
It's 24 verses, and it kind of sits in about three
distinct parts.
Um, so I'll read throughstarting with Psalm 139, verse
1.
Oh Lord, you have searched meand known me.
You know, when I sit down andwhen I rise up, you discern my
thoughts from afar.
You search out my path and mylying down and are acquainted
with all my ways.
(15:29):
Even before a word is on mytongue, behold, O Lord, you know
it altogether.
You hem me in behind and before,and you lay your hand upon me.
Such knowledge is too wonderfulfor me, it is high, I cannot
attain it.
Where shall I go from yourspirit, or where shall I flee
from your presence?
If I ascend to heaven, you arethere.
If I make my bed and sheol, youare there.
(15:49):
If I take the wings of themorning and dwell in the
uttermost parts of the sea, eventhere your hand shall lead me,
and your right hand shall holdme.
If I say, Surely the darknessshall cover me, and the light
about me be night, even thedarkness is not dark to you.
The night is bright as the day,for darkness is as light with
you.
For you formed my inward parts,you knitted me together in my
(16:11):
mother's womb.
I praise you, for I'm fearfullyand wonderfully made.
Wonderful are your works, mysoul knows it very well.
My frame was not hidden from youwhen I was being made in secret,
intricately woven in the depthsof the earth.
Your eyes saw my unformedsubstance.
In your book were written, everyone of them, the days that were
formed for me, when as yet therewas none of them.
(16:33):
How precious to me are yourthoughts, O God, how vast is the
sum of them.
If I would count them, they aremore than the sand.
I awake and I am still with you.
Oh, that you would slay thewicked, O God, O men of blood,
depart from me.
They speak against you withmalicious intent.
Your enemies take your name invain.
Do I not hate those who hateyou, O Lord?
(16:54):
And do I not loathe those whorise up against you?
I hate them with completehatred.
I count them my enemies.
Search me, O God, and know myheart.
Try me and know my thoughts, andsee if there be any grievous way
in me and lead me in the wayeverlasting.
SPEAKER_01 (17:11):
Oh my goodness.
So much.
So much.
Do you have a favorite verse ortwo in Psalm 139?
SPEAKER_03 (17:18):
I know it's um, yeah, it's hard to pick.
Um, but I will say one that Ihave loved for a long time is
verse 5.
You hem me in behind and before,you lay your hand upon me.
And the reason being is that Ithink that one of the ways that
God communicates love to hispeople, if you are to walk
through the whole story ofscripture, he communicates love
(17:40):
through presence, throughcommitting to be with his people
no matter what.
So if you go through the storyof the Old Testament, you have
God uh dwelling his manifestpresence with the people of
Israel, you know, in coming outof Egypt.
And then you have the thetabernacle and then the temple,
and then everything changeschanges when Jesus comes and
(18:02):
walks the earth physically, andthen things change again when
Jesus ascends to heaven afterhis resurrection and sends the
Holy Spirit a Pentecost.
And you have God who loves hispeople by surrounding them with
his presence.
I just think that is such abeautiful and encouraging truth.
And so that verse, you know,really verses five through 10
where he talks about there'sjust nowhere I can go that
(18:26):
you're not gonna be there.
And you get this picture thatDavid kind of paints
geographically.
If I go up to the heavens, if Igo down to Sheol, the grave,
you're there.
And then he says, if I take thewings of the morning while the
sun rises in the east.
And then he says, if I go to thefar side of the sea, which for
him would have been theMediterranean, which would have
(18:46):
been west.
So he kind of spans his arms outas far as you could go, you're
right there with me, and yourright hand holds me fast.
I just love the imagery ofHebrew poetry, really.
It just paints a beautifulpicture that there is nowhere we
can go.
And that just gives me so muchcomfort.
SPEAKER_00 (19:04):
Yes.
SPEAKER_01 (19:05):
I think that particular verse is my favorite,
the one that says, if I rise onthe wings of the dawn, if I
settle on the far side of thissea, even there, your hand will
lead me, your right hand willhold me fast.
And I've thought about that notjust for me, but my some of my
kids are pretty adventurous andthey've gone to the far side of
(19:26):
the sea, the other side of theearth.
And whenever they have traveled,I remember the first time two of
my kids were going to Africa.
And I'm I'm watching online thislittle like map of the airplane
going across the globe.
And I was like, I didn't knowhow far away this was.
And that verse came to my mindthat for my kids, even if they
(19:49):
go to the far side of the sea,like God's hand is guiding, he's
with them.
And I and I loved everything yousaid about presence and oh, it's
so beautiful.
It's such an amazing psalm.
So, listener, if you don't knowPsalm 139, it is a great one to
just soak in, to memorize, tomeditate on.
Um, but when when you read thatpsalm, it kind of sounds like
(20:12):
it's about us, and it alsosounds like it's about God.
So, which is it?
Is it about us or is it aboutGod?
SPEAKER_03 (20:18):
I mean, I think it you could say yes, it's about
both of us, but I mean, becausescripture is God's revelation of
himself, it's first about him.
I mean, when you read it atfirst glance, this particular
psalm, you see the the umpronouns used.
David's like, when I sit, when Irise, when I'm here, when I'm
there.
But ultimately what he's doingis he's casting us back to, you
(20:41):
know, you've searched, you'rehere, you're there, you're
everywhere, you him mean.
And he really turns you to, Imean, I think God is the hero of
the psalm, as he is in it in allof scripture.
This is David telling us, youknow, this is who I am, but the
only way I have knowledge ofmyself is through knowledge of
who God is first.
And that's really, you know, ifwe want true knowledge of who we
(21:03):
are, scripture tells us, butit's helpful for us to first
look at scripture through thelens of who is God here?
What is he revealing to us abouthimself?
When we see him in his proper umplace, then we can see ourselves
in our proper place.
And so ultimately, I think thispsalm is about the God who knows
all and the God who delights inhis children.
SPEAKER_01 (21:25):
Love it.
Yes, yes, that's a great answer.
Yes, the answer is yes.
The answer is yes.
Um, what about the person whofeels like there's so much
shame?
Like Glenna, you don't know mystory.
You don't know what I've done orwhat's been done to me, or the
this podcast, we talk a lotabout brokenness.
(21:47):
We talk, you know, the listener,any listener has things in their
life that they're ashamed of orthey're hiding, or they feel
like, how can God really loveme?
Like, what would you say theperson who feels like, yeah,
God's love is good for you, yougood people out there, but not
(22:07):
for someone like me.
SPEAKER_03 (22:09):
Yeah.
Well, first of all, I would sayscripture teaches that there's
no one who is good, truly.
No one seeks after God.
The real hero of scripture isthat is God who seeks people and
makes them his children, andthey were his enemies.
And that's all of us.
We all start off as enemies ofGod.
Paul tells us very clearly inColossians, he describes us as
(22:31):
being alienated and hostile inmind, doing evil deeds.
In Ephesians, he says we're deadin our sins.
And there's no real hierarchywhen it comes to sin.
If you have failed in one pointof God's law, you're guilty of
failing all of it.
God's word is very clear.
So while some of our sin mayfeel more shameful, there are
(22:52):
some areas of sin, you know, I'mthinking of sexual sin,
particularly where people carryso much shame.
While it may seem that way, allsin is an offense against God.
And so, you know, I am coming toyou as a person who's been a
believer in Jesus for most of mylife.
And so some of the worst thingsthat I have done and thought and
(23:13):
said have been done and thoughtand said as a professing
Christian.
And that brings another kind ofshame where the enemy may say to
you, God could never forgive youfor that.
What the enemy says to me is,how can you call yourself a
Christian after doing this?
And so shame can take a lot ofdifferent forms.
The thing about shame is thatshame lies to us and says to us
(23:37):
that we can't be forgiven orthat we can't truly walk with
Jesus because we've done this.
But I, you know, again, God'sword says to us, there is no
condemnation for those who arein Christ Jesus because Jesus
took it all at the cross.
So the question you have to askis, is Jesus' blood enough to
cover my sin?
And if you think it's enough tocover everyone else's sin but
(24:00):
yours, that's actually a prideproblem.
You're saying that you're anexception to the gospel.
But what Jesus says, if the Sonhas set you free, you are free
indeed.
And again, in 1 John 1, Johntells us that if you um confess
your sin, he is faithful andalso just.
Like it's right for him toforgive your sin and to cleanse
(24:23):
you from unrighteousness.
No one's an exception to theblood of Jesus.
It is powerful, it is enough tosave us and save us completely.
And so when we are still holdingon to feelings of shame for sin
that Jesus has paid for, this iswhen we have to preach the
gospel again to ourselves.
The gospel saves us, but it alsosanctifies us.
(24:44):
And we have to, we, we shouldtake those feelings and we
should run to the Lord, notcower and shame away from him.
He's the one who's dealt withour sin.
So where else are we going to gowith it?
You know, he's the one we shouldrun to.
I think of that parable thatJesus told of the prodigal son
who squandered his inheritance,and then he comes crawling back,
(25:05):
thinking he'll be a servant inhis father's house.
And what does he find his fatherdoing?
Standing there waiting for him.
And then when he sees him, thefather runs.
And and we are supposed to viewour father like that father.
But we run to him with our sin.
We run to him with our shame.
Who else is going to dress us inrobes of righteousness?
(25:27):
And so uh we should not listento shame, but we should just run
to the Lord with it.
SPEAKER_01 (25:33):
Yes, and amen.
Love that.
You're um, I did a series lastyear called the Shame to Shining
series, and that that isresonating with me, just that
whole message about the that thecross is enough.
It's enough for every sin andfor us to for us to come to the
cross and say, Yeah, but it'snot enough for me.
(25:55):
It's exactly right.
Like you said, that's pride.
It's it's it's a backwards formof pride, but it is pride.
It's saying to Jesus, thank you,but it's but it wasn't enough.
And how can we dare say that hissacrifice on the cross was not
enough?
Yes.
Um of us, uh oh wait, no, no,no.
(26:17):
Sorry.
I'm going to I have questioneight here, and I think that
this one what came from your umsheet.
And I'm gonna edit this righthere, but it says some of our
doubt about God's love for us isrooted in a desire to matter and
be remembered in this life.
How should God's care for usshape how we think about the
(26:38):
years God has given us on theearth?
SPEAKER_03 (26:40):
Is that your is that um that is more of a that comes
from one of the chapters in thebook that stems from um kind of
an innate desire to matter, butwhat if we live really small
lives?
Like, do our lives matter?
You're welcome to skip that andmove on to something else if you
want to.
SPEAKER_01 (26:55):
I'm concept.
Um what are we?
We we're good on time.
Um, but now that I understandthe the context of the question,
I'll just go ahead and ask it.
SPEAKER_03 (27:06):
Okay.
SPEAKER_01 (27:06):
Okay, so I have another question.
A lot of us, you know, we wantwe want to be seen, we want to
be known.
That's a God-given desire, andyet so many of us live very
small, maybe seeminglyinsignificant lives.
How can God's love for us, hiscare for us, shape the way we
(27:27):
view our lives, even our small,little, seemingly insignificant
lives?
SPEAKER_03 (27:33):
I think that the time in which we live right now
in the 21st century, living inthe American culture of the
West, I think we feel a lot ofpressure to live big, famous,
flashy existences, you know,where we've left this big mark
on the world.
I think maybe in the time that,you know, Psalm 139 was written,
(27:56):
most people were nobodies.
And there was no way to be knownaround the world necessarily.
I mean, David would have been anexception, but really just in
that part of the world where helived.
And um, but I think for us,because the world is made small
by social media and the internetand things like that, uh, we
want to be known by everyone.
(28:18):
But what really matters is thatwe are known by God.
And so the call that God hasgiven us as Christians, you
know, what we want to hear whenwe die and we close our eyes to
this life and open our eyes toour eternal life with Him, what
we want to hear is, Well done,my good and faithful servant.
And faithfulness is not bound byfame or wealth or influence or
(28:41):
popularity.
We don't need the Lord to say,Well done, my good and
accomplished servant, or welldone, my good and wealthy
servant, or well done, my goodand famous servant, but just
faithfulness.
And faithfulness is a commandand a fruit of the spirit, and
that can be lived out in anycontext, whether the Lord has
(29:02):
given you a large sphere ofinfluence, or whether you live
in virtual anonymity, justplugging along in a menial job
with us, you know, in your housewith your family or your town or
your small local church or yourco-workers where you live.
The call to faithfulness can belived out anywhere.
And because your life alreadymatters to the Lord, where he
(29:24):
has placed you with whateversize sphere of influence, your
obedience is to be faithful withwhat he's given you.
And that's really it.
And so, you know, I think oflike, um I think of my
grandparents, all mygrandparents were first
generation believers.
And so, you know, their faith inJesus kind of bent the direction
that the family tree grew in ina completely different way.
(29:46):
And yet, my grandparents wereordinary people, you know, a
homemaker, a chiropractor, anelectrician, you know, like
these were ordinary people.
No one would ever know theirnames outside of where they
live.
Lived at their time, but theywere people who loved Jesus and
they loved his word and theyloved the local church and they
(30:07):
raised their children to believein Jesus.
And then the next generation, myparents, raised their children
to believe in Jesus.
My parents aren't famous or wellknown.
They have ordinary jobs,ordinary people.
And then now my siblings and I,like we're raising all of our
children to know and love Jesus.
And I think these are ordinarysmall lives that have eternal,
(30:28):
eternal ripple effects.
And I just think no matter whereyou've placed you, where God has
placed you, if you are faithfuland just obedient and you love
Jesus just day in and day out,and you're seeking to follow
him, man, that is eternallyimpactful.
And that is that is plenty.
That is enough.
That's all God's called you tois faithfulness, where he's
(30:49):
placed you.
SPEAKER_01 (30:50):
Yes, I love that.
I just want to, I just want tolisten to you talk because
everything you're saying, myheart is going, yes, yes.
I think about Ruth.
You know, her story is she wassuch an ordinary person.
You know, we we read her storyand we're like, Ruth, you know,
she she did this epic thing oftraveling with Naomi.
(31:11):
And and yet she would never haveknown her role.
All of the women in the line ofJesus, all the people in the
line of Jesus, like they werejust living their faithful
lives, knowing God, being knownby Him, and they weren't out
there trying to be famous.
I don't, I don't know if thatwas a thing back then.
(31:32):
I mean, maybe it was in somecapacity, but not like it is
today, not like it is like it isfor us.
And so you have this wholescripture filled with people who
lived ordinary, faithful lives,and and we're now reading their
stories, and we're now saying,wow, look at what God did, look
at the extraordinary things,look at the way he used Ruth and
(31:55):
Naomi, these widows, thesenobodies in their town to impact
the kingdom of God.
And so I love that.
I love that.
All right, there is a part ofthe psalm.
I know what part it is.
It's like, what in the world?
So it's verses 19 to 22, whereyou know, David is praising God,
(32:19):
you know me, you love me, you'vemade me.
And then all of a sudden he'slike, Slay the wicked away from
me, you bloodthirsty men.
I hate the people who hate you.
So let's talk about um what itkind of feels out of place.
It does.
What in the world is thisportion of the psalm about?
And how does it get?
SPEAKER_03 (32:40):
Yes.
So this is an imprecatoryprayer, otherwise known as a
prayer of cursing.
And it feels wildly out of placeat first glance.
In fact, someone said to merecently uh in an interview like
this, you know, I was memorizingPsalm 139 and then I stopped
when I got to that weird part.
It's like, don't we all?
We have like verses 13 and 14 ona coffee mug.
(33:01):
Nobody's putting, oh, that youwould slay the wicked on a
coffee mug.
You know, you're not gonnaInstagram that.
So what is this doing here?
Well, at first it seems out ofplace, but what you have here,
now let me just define animprecatory prayer.
What it is, is it's a prayer forGod to bring about what he has
already said will happen tothose who continually reject
him.
(33:21):
So, for an example, um, in Psalmone, I think verse four or five,
David, or it's not David, butthe psalmist says um that the
wicked are like chaff that thewind drives away, and that
therefore they will not be apart of God's congregation of
his people.
They will not stand with thecongregation of the righteous
(33:41):
and they will perish.
And it's a statement of fact.
And in using that chaff analogy,he's saying there's no root,
there's no fruitfulness.
He's comparing them to therighteous man who love God's who
loves God's law and is like atree that's firmly rooted by a
stream.
And he is always flourishing, heis faithful because he's being
fed by God's word.
(34:01):
So you have this kind of pictureof deeply rooted,
inconsequential, then piece ofchaff that floats away on the
wind.
So that's Psalm one.
The wicked are like chaff.
It's a statement.
Then you go to Psalm 35, whichis an imprecatory psalm.
It's a cursing psalm where Davidsays, Let the wicked be as
chaff.
(34:21):
And so what he's praying thereis that the wicked would be,
those who reject God, would bewhat God has said ultimately
they will be.
So he's praying for God to bringhis judgment about.
And so that's essentially whatan imprecatory prayer is: like,
Lord, would you bring about thisthing that you have already said
will happen?
So interestingly, we prayimprecatory prayers all the time
(34:42):
without realizing it.
So when you pray, and I'm sureyou have, and I'm sure your
listeners have prayed, come,Lord Jesus.
And we pray that all the timebecause we see all of the things
happening in the world, and yousee godlessness and uh violence
and oppression and uhcorruption, and you pray, come,
Lord Jesus, and you're prayingas you should, for the Lord to
(35:04):
come and to make all thingsright and to give us our
resurrection bodies and to takeus to the new creation.
But when we pray that, we'reactually praying for him to
bring judgment on those who haverejected him.
There's a verse in Revelation 14that says, uh, when Jesus comes,
and we're, you know, make thingsright.
Well, he is, he's gonna come andhe's gonna judge the earth.
(35:26):
And in Revelation 14, it saysthat the blood of the wine press
of God's wrath will be like 180plus miles long, like that's how
long this river of blood is, andas deep as a horse is tall.
This is what happens whenjudgment happens.
I mean, it's like a reallygruesome passage.
And so when we pray veryinnocently, oh, come Lord Jesus,
(35:49):
we're actually praying for Jesusto enact judgment on the wicked.
And it feels very wrong, butit's not wrong to pray for God
to bring about justice becauseGod loves justice and he hates
oppression.
That's very clear in scripture.
So when you get to this sectionin Psalm 139, you're like,
what's happening here?
Well, think about it.
David has praised God for hisintimate care and investment.
(36:12):
He has praised God for howcarefully he makes human life.
Then you get to verse uh 19, andhe said, he calls the wicked, oh
men of blood.
These are men who are sheddingblood, they are taking human
life, which is something thatGod values.
And so they are doing this, andit is in complete uh opposite of
(36:35):
what God would have them do.
So, what David's saying is, Youhave made me, you know me, you
love me, I'm with you.
Like your enemies are myenemies.
I am aligning myself in loyaltyto you, Lord.
And so I hate these men who lovewhat you hate and hate what you
love.
It's just they are polaropposite of you, but I'm gonna
(36:56):
love what you love and I'm gonnahate what you hate.
So he's aligning himself withGod in loyalty.
And I think that's the rightresponse, you know.
If God has done all of thesethings for you, you belong to
him, and therefore you need toalign and submit yourself to his
desires.
But at the same time, we are NewTestament Christians.
You know, we are living on thisside of the cross and we know
(37:17):
Jesus who said, Love yourenemies and pray for those who
persecute you.
And so it's like, which one isit?
Do we pray the impregatory curseor do we love our enemies?
And I would say we do both.
Because, you know, when you seemass injustice, like I don't
know if you're aware of what'shappening.
Our Nigerian brothers andsisters are being slaughtered by
the thousands simply forbelieving in Jesus.
(37:40):
I mean, they the persecutionhappening in the Nigerian church
right now is just an atrocity.
So when I look at the news and Isee this, my prayer is, Lord,
cut off the arm of the wicked,to use kind of a psalmic
language, you know, and I'mpraying for those oppressors to
be stopped.
Now, in my flesh, I want to say,Lord, just you know, annihilate
(38:02):
all of them.
But the thing is that we have toremember is that we were all
enemies of God.
That's where we all start.
And and he sent Jesus to move usfrom enemy to friend and to
daughter and son, and we'regonna share Christ's inheritance
for eternity.
So when I pray, Lord, cut offthe arm of the wicked,
ultimately what I should prayis, Lord, save the wicked, save
(38:24):
the wicked, shine the light ofthe gospel into their lives and
give them faith to believe.
And if they will not, then endtheir reach as oppressors.
And we have to go back to thattruth that because God is
all-knowing, he knows allmotives, he knows all hearts,
he's sovereign, he's good,therefore he's gonna handle this
(38:46):
the right way.
We don't take vengeance, hehandles vengeance because he
will do it right and he will doits best.
And in the end, Jesus willreturn and right every wrong.
And so it's a little complicatedand layered, but I think when it
comes to a prayer like this, asChristians who know the whole
gospel story, we know who wewere, we know what God has done
in our lives.
We pray for justice and mercy.
(39:08):
And I I think we pray for both.
And so we we leave God to handlethings as He will see fit, but
we should always long for everylost soul to come to faith in
Jesus and be reconciled to God.
SPEAKER_01 (39:20):
Yeah, yeah.
Justice and mercy.
I mean, you you see that Jesusis the perfection of grace and
truth.
Yeah.
You know, and and and that'swhat that is.
It's justice and mercy, allwrapped in one.
I love the way you put that, andthat kind of helps us kind of
put those verses in context andmake a little sense out of that
(39:40):
where you're right.
I I have memorized one Psalm139, and I get to that and I'm
like, I don't know what I'mdoing here.
SPEAKER_02 (39:48):
It feels so weird coming out of your mouth.
Oh, that you would slay thewicked.
SPEAKER_03 (39:52):
But you know, that's why we read the Old Testament
and the Psalms particularly witha gospel lens.
We should always look forChrist.
I mean, he said in John 5.39that the law and the prophets
are about him, that scripture isabout him.
And so we need to read scripturewith him and what he has done
for us at the cross and mine.
And I think it helps us makesense of verses like these.
SPEAKER_01 (40:14):
Yes.
Oh my goodness.
Glenn, I feel like we could talkfor hours, but we could.
We need to wrap up a little bit.
Um, where can people find youand connect with you?
SPEAKER_03 (40:24):
Yeah, so I have a website.
It's like a good old-fashionedblog from like the early 2000s
because I'm 44 and I'mstruggling to like make leaps to
other areas on the internet.
Um, so I it's justglennamarshall.com and I write
there not as much when I'mworking on a book, which I am
right now.
So, but uh on social media, I'mat Glena D.
Marshall.
(40:45):
That's probably the place I'mmost active on the social media
platforms.
SPEAKER_01 (40:48):
I'll have links in the show notes.
I always will have links.
Um, and I'll have links to yourbooks as well.
Um, but in closing, would youspeak to the listener who has a
hard time believing that Godreally knows everything about
them and loves them with thatdeep and perfect love?
SPEAKER_03 (41:12):
I would say if you doubt that God knows you
completely and therefore couldpossibly love you completely, I
want to, because I and I'vealready said this, I want you to
read God's word looking forthose truths because it is so
easy to look at your life andmaybe look at the things you
don't have, or maybe the thingsthat have happened to you, and
(41:32):
to let your life experience tellyou what you think is true about
God.
But God's word is true and it istruth and it transcends even our
experiences and and really canhelp us interpret our life
experiences correctly.
I think so often we look at whathappens to us and we say, well,
this, you know, I didn't getthis, therefore God must not
(41:52):
love me, or this happened to meand I didn't want it to,
therefore, God must not love me.
But if we start with scriptureas our absolute truth and we see
that God is the source of loveand we let that be the lens
through which we view our lifeexperiences, then it kind of
flips the script.
And so we start with the premiseGod is good and he does good,
(42:14):
Psalm 119, 68.
We start there and then we lookat our lives and the things that
we don't have or the things thathappen to us, and we start with,
well, I know God is good, I knowhe loves me.
Therefore, if he has allowedthis, he will somehow redeem it
and recycle it for my good andfor his glory.
And I may not see it in thislife, but I'll see it in the one
to come.
So let God's word be the lensthrough which you view and come
(42:38):
to believe what is true abouthim.
SPEAKER_01 (42:41):
Yes, yes, and amen.
And thank you, thank you so muchfor having this conversation
with me on beauty and thebrokenness.
Absolutely.
So happy to do it.
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