September 16, 2025 • 35 mins
The human heart carries a longing to be truly seen and known. In this conversation with psychiatrist Curt Thompson, MD, we explore this universal yearning not as a weakness or flaw, but as the very cornerstone of our humanity. Whether you've felt invisible, misunderstood, or afraid to reveal your true self, this conversation offers hope and practical wisdom. Join us as we explore how embracing the gaze of God and safe others can rewire our brains and restore our souls.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Curt (00:00):
We long to hear our stories be told.
We're made for this.
This isn't just a thing that wehave to do as a way to heal,
like okay, otherwise, you know,if we'd never sinned, we
wouldn't really have to do thisstorytelling stuff and reveal
Like, if we hadn't sinned, wewould be doing this.
All this is how we would beliving all the time.
You know, without guile,without shame.
(00:22):
This is what we.
We are storytellers.
Without guile, without shame.
We are storytellers.
It's how we live.
Teresa (00:26):
There is a longing in every human heart to be seen and
known.
Sometimes we wonder does anyoneeven see me?
Does it even matter?
Do I even matter?
As we begin the Seen series, Icouldn't think of a better
podcast guest than Dr KurtThompson.
I deeply admire his work in thespace of interpersonal
(00:49):
neurobiology and how itintersects with our faith in
Jesus.
In today's episode, he shareswith us about the power of
storytelling and how it helps usheal.
He also shares a beautifulperspective on the story of
(01:22):
brings for healing.
I'm your host, teresa Whiting,an author, bible teacher and
trauma-informed life coach, butmostly a friend and fellow
struggler.
No matter who you are or whereyou've been, I'm inviting you to
encounter the God of rescue,redemption and restoration, the
God who is still creating beautyright in the midst of your
(01:46):
brokenness.
Well welcome friends.
I am so excited to introduceyou to my guest, dr Kurt
Thompson, today.
Dr Thompson is a psychiatrist,an author and a speaker who, in
my opinion, is a master atweaving together the
understanding of interpersonalneurobiology with a Christian
(02:09):
view of what it means to behuman.
He helps people process theirlongings, their grief, their
identity, their purpose, theirperspective of God and their
perspective of humanity,inviting them to engage more
authentically with their ownstories and their relationships.
He's also the author of severalbooks, two of which are my
(02:30):
favorites the Soul of Shame andthe Soul of Desire, and he's
also the host of the being Knownpodcast, and if you haven't
listened to that yet, I highlyencourage you to go over and
give it a listen and a follow.
So, kurt, thank you so much forbeing here today.
Curt (02:49):
Teresa, thank you so much for inviting me.
It's such a pleasure to be ableto have our conversation
together.
Yeah, really looking forward toit.
Teresa (02:55):
I'm excited.
Before we jump into a lot ofthe questions I have for you,
would you just tell thelisteners a little bit more
about yourself, and if you wantto throw in a fun fact, that'd
be great.
Curt (03:07):
Well, sure, thanks.
Well, probably some of theimportant things for me are I've
been married to Phyllis forabout 38 and a half years and we
have two adult kids, rachel,our daughter Rachel, who's
married and who gave birth toour first grandchild about three
months ago, which is a big deal.
Teresa (03:25):
Congrats.
Curt (03:27):
Yeah, thank you.
And then we have a son, nathan,who's 31.
So those relationships havebeen, I think, over the course
of the time that I've been inthe world with them have been
most formative.
I'm really grateful for that.
I don't have words and I oftensay to people I don't deserve my
life and my wife and my kidswould be.
(03:50):
And now our grandson andson-in-law are evidence of that.
Funds and I, you know, for myday job.
I have the privilege of livinghere in the Washington DC area
(04:12):
practicing as a psychiatrist,and over the course of the last
35 years or so I've had theopportunity to work with people
in a range of different medicaland psychiatric experiences that
they've had.
And as we, anybody who's apsychiatrist or a therapist
(04:32):
would say that you know ourpatients are the ones who teach
us more about life than anybodyelse in the world, and so it's
been humbling and gratifying tobe able to do that.
And then, over the last 20years in particular, I've had
the privilege of doing this workat the intersection of the
emerging field of interpersonalneurobiology kind of a fancy
(04:53):
schmancy term for lots ofdifferent scientific disciplines
that have a stake in, you know,being curious about what is the
mind, and what is the mind thatis flourishing?
Really being curious about thatand its intersection with a
Christian anthropology, as yousaid earlier.
What does it mean for us to behuman when we engage the
biblical text, when we encounterJesus?
(05:14):
How does that inform ourscience?
How does that inform all thethings?
And that brings me, then, tothe privilege of having this
conversation with you.
Teresa (05:27):
Well, I'm thrilled.
First of all, thank you forthat.
You know telling us a littlebit more about yourself, and one
of the things that you havesaid often and I feel like it's
part of the fabric of what youdo and teach is that we all come
into the world looking forsomeone, looking for us.
And I know we're jumping rightinto the questions, but there's
(05:49):
so many things I want to talkabout and I want to really jump
into understanding thatstatement.
Can you unpack that?
Curt (05:58):
Like everyone comes into the world looking for somebody
looking for them, Well, I thinkyou know, if we were to take the
world only on the world's terms, meaning like, if we don't look
at the Bible, if we don't dowhich much of the world doesn't
look at, the Bible isn't reallythinking about those kinds of
things.
If we just look at the world ofhow we come to understand how
(06:22):
humans develop, eventually, andespecially as we're informed by
the mechanics of the mind, whichis what interpersonal
neurobiology kind of reveals tous, how does the mind work?
What is the mind?
How does it work?
How does it work?
Well, what does it look like?
When human beings begin toflourish, we come to recognize
pretty quickly that we humanbeings are not isolated, siloed
(06:46):
beings.
Now, the world might tend toteach us that that's who we are.
Not explicitly it doesn't sayoh, you are by yourself in the
world, but we subtly andimplicitly form people into
believing that that's what weare with all kinds of implicit
messaging, and what that tendsthen to do is to put a lot of
(07:08):
pressure on each of us tobelieve that, oh, my goodness,
like I'm by myself in the worldand I need to figure out things
and I need to make my way in theworld and I self-identify in
the world, and what's sointeresting is that the
neuroscience would teach us thatnone of that is true.
In fact, that when a newborncomes into the world with about
100 billion neurons ready to goin their brain, only about 15 to
(07:31):
20% of those neurons are reallyable and ready to go to do what
that newborn needs them to do.
The other 20 to, you know, 20%,the other 80 to 85% of those
neurons, in order for them tobecome fully functioning,
actually need to have aninteraction with another human
being.
I have to have an interpersonalrelationship In order for me to
(07:52):
grow into a human.
I need to see someone seeing me, I need to hear someone hearing
me.
And, of course, in the world ofinterpersonal neurobiology,
we're really looking at theresearch in the field of
attachment that shows us that webecome more fully ourselves
through what we would call co-regulation of our emotional
(08:14):
distresses.
We become more fully ourselveswhen I hear my story being
spoken by you.
As you hear me tell my story, Idon't ever become fully who I
am, apart from my interactionwith other people.
Hence I come into the worldlooking for someone who's
looking for me and when you findme, moreover, when I discover,
(08:38):
when I become aware that you'vecome to find me, that expands,
that enables me to become morethan I otherwise would have
become, and then we say like, oh, that's, those are just the
mechanics of how the mind worked.
But then, you know, when youlook at the second page of the
Bible actually the first page ofthe Bible we see that when God
is creating the earth, when Godis like naming the things right,
he's bringing order and purpose.
That he says after day one, daytwo, day four, day five, day
(09:00):
six, it's good, it's good.
And there is the sense in which, at one level, we would say oh,
that's God looking at an objectand saying this thing that I've
created, it's beautiful, it'sgood.
What we sometimes miss is thenuance of the Hebrew, which is
also saying that the goodnessthat God sees, the goodness, the
beauty that God sees, that wordgood is interchangeable with
(09:22):
the word beauty in the.
Hebrew, the beauty and thegoodness actually emerges as a
function of being seen.
So we think how many people inthe world today, their lives are
going to be made differentbecause in our listeners?
Our listeners are going to gointo the world and all forth
beauty in other people's livesby virtue of seeing them.
(09:45):
I'm not just recognizing theirbeauty, but I'm calling it forth
by giving them the experienceof being seen by me.
So that's page one.
And then we get to page two ofthe Bible, where we read it's
not good for the man to be alone.
Right, we read let us makemankind in our image.
This notion that we are made associal creatures, we are made as
(10:05):
male and female, this notionthat, like I, do not bear the
image of God, apart from thefact that there are as a man,
apart from the fact that thereare women in the world, and the
same is true for women thatthere are men in the world.
We together are the image ofGod.
And so this notion of how themechanics of the mind reveal the
depth of the purpose of ourbeing known and being seen,
(10:27):
right, everybody's looking forsomeone, looking for them, we
would say.
Well, of course, it's areflection of what we read about
, that people have believed inthe Judeo-Christian heritage now
for over 4,000 years, and so Ithink it's really important,
then, for us to know that.
Oh goodness, in order for me toflourish, I have to answer the
question by whom am I being seen?
(10:48):
By whom am I being heard on aregular basis?
Teresa (10:52):
Yes, yes, and that's why all the things that you're
explaining, this is why I wantedto have this conversation with
you, because I'm currentlywriting a Bible study called
Seen, and it's all about thatdesire, that need, that innate
(11:13):
wiring, that we have to be seenand known, and I love how you
weave in both the interpersonalneurobiology and the biblical
truth.
Like we, this is a God-giventhing and, honestly, like I feel
like for myself, I have attimes felt like I want to be
(11:35):
seen, I want to be known, andI've almost seen that as like a
flaw or oh, that's a weakness,that's me being prideful or
whatever.
Like.
How do you explain that?
Curt (11:47):
as a good thing.
Well, I'm reminded of this.
You know I mentioned earlier.
You know, three months ago ourdaughter gave birth to our first
grandchild and even though theylive in Nashville, we live here
in the Northern Virginia areaso we don't get to be in person.
But they're moving toCharlottesville so we'll only be
two hours away.
I hope my daughter andson-in-law don't mind the fact
(12:08):
that every weekend I can be, I'mgoing to want to be in
Charlottesville, but even so, wesee pictures, we have little
videos of our son Simon, ourgrandson Simon, and this felt
sense of looking at him right,looking to be seen.
And you I mean anybody who'sbeen around newborns and infants
and toddlers right when theythey are completely unabashed,
(12:30):
they are guileless about wantingto be seen, they expect to be
seen right.
And we would never say to a sixmonth old who looking for the
parent looking for them, wewould never say to the
three-year-old who's looking formom and dad, especially if
she's in distress, but even ifshe comes in with her new art
project, that you have no ideawhat, that is right, but she's
(12:54):
looking to be seen.
We wouldn't say, oh, what areyou doing?
No, of course they do, and thenwe get to the gospels, where
Jesus says you know, unlessy'all change and become like
little children, heaven isn'tgoing to work for you.
This notion that we arepracticing for heaven, we are
(13:16):
practicing for a kingdom that iscoming, in which it will be
necessary for us to be able totolerate the gaze of a God who
is coming to find us with utterdelight.
And, as you know, we like to saywhen patients are coming into
(13:36):
our office, like we look, wehave all kinds of symptoms range
of trauma, anxiety, depression,addiction, you name it.
Anxiety, depression, addiction,you name it.
And so much of this is we, youknow, we look around at gosh,
they're having a hard time.
We see that loving other peopleis not easy for us to do, right
(13:56):
, and love seems to be so absentin our current cultural moment.
And yet, and so we say we'renot very good at that.
But the point, the reason we'renot very good at it, is because
we can't give what we don'thave, and what that means is
that the thing that we're evenless capable of doing is being
receptive to love.
We think that love is a goodthing.
(14:17):
We love love until loveactually shows up.
And then it because it shows upand it wants us to give it the
opportunity to let us be seen byit.
And it's a terrifying thing,because all of our trauma has
taken place in the context ofintimate relationships.
(14:38):
Our mind remembers that intimacy, as much as we long for it, is
dangerous.
It's like look, I can't getaway from being thirsty.
I have to have water to drink.
But what if the water that I'veconsumed has been contaminated?
And that's mostly what I know.
But I can't stop myself frombeing thirsty, and so I can't
keep myself from longing to beseen.
(15:00):
Of course I might want to say,oh, I should be able to do this
by myself.
I'm going to feel bad if I longto be seen, because that is
evil at work, trying to get usto forget that we are made as
relational creatures, that thisis what we are made to become.
But the very thing that we thenlong for, evil, wants to
(15:21):
reroute that and say, oh, no,that's not what you should need.
You should be able to do thison yourself, by yourself, and so
even the work that you're doing, teresa, no, that's not what
you should need.
You should be able to do thison yourself, by yourself, and so
even the work that you're doing, teresa.
These Bible studies are socrucial for folks because they
(15:42):
ground folks in a text.
It creates a hard deck in atext, a textual study that
enables people to have the feltsense that this longing that we
have, as much as we areimperfect at directing it, that
longing is the eternity that Godhas placed in our hearts, our
hunger and our thirst for him,and so that we have it is
(16:03):
evidence that there is a God andhe's coming for us.
Teresa (16:06):
Yes, yes, and so in the study there's going to be six
different women that are fromScripture, like Hagar and Leah
and the bleeding woman who, youknow, were completely discarded,
forsaken, cast off by the world, and yet God came looking for
them.
And you mentioned this littlephrase, the gaze of God, and I
(16:31):
would love to press into that alittle bit.
How do we accept that, how dowe acknowledge that God has come
looking for us?
He's calling us by name, he'spursuing us.
Like he's calling us by name,he's, he's pursuing us, and yet,
like you're saying, likethere's this fear of intimacy,
there's this fear of reallybeing fully seen and fully known
(16:54):
, even though that's what welong for.
We're afraid of it, you know.
And yet how do we get to aplace where we are accepting and
enjoying and living in thatbeautiful gaze of God toward us?
Curt (17:10):
Well, in the soul of desire.
We focus attention on thefourth verse of the 27th Psalm,
this notion that I will dwell inthe house of the Lord.
One thing I've asked I willdwell in the house of the Lord
all the days of my life, that Imay gaze upon his beauty.
I may gaze upon his beauty.
I may gaze upon his beauty, andthere are multiple dimensions
(17:30):
of that beauty.
And one dimension of thatbeauty is not just I'm gazing at
something that is beautiful,like the Grand Canyon or the
Pieta or a sunrise, but I'mgazing at someone who's gazing
at me.
We have this exercise that we dofor married couples.
That at first is somewhatuncomfortable for them,
(17:54):
especially if they're justcoming into the office in the
wake of having a fight.
But we have them sit knees toknees looking at each other.
We give them the assignment.
We're going to give them justfive minutes of this.
We say we're going to ask you,we get to take a couple of deep
breaths and then we're going toask you to look at each other
with love and kindness.
We want you to gaze at eachother Now.
(18:15):
I don't want you to stare.
You can blink, you can turnaway, but I want you to continue
to.
Of course, this is veryunnerving, if you can imagine.
I can feel it.
Mm-hmm, if you can imagine, Ican feel it.
Even the people that we likelike the whole notion of like
looking at people, right, whenyou look at newborns and infants
, when parents and grandparentsjust love to look at their kids,
(18:36):
and especially if their kidsare looking at them and they're
smiling, and so forth.
But there will come a momentwhen, for the child, the gaze
will be too much and they willlook away and then they'll
return.
It's like, oh, I can toleratelooking at beauty, I can
tolerate this for a certainamount of time, and then I have
(18:57):
to catch my breath because it'salmost like it's too much and
there is a sense in which wehave to practice doing this and
that's a rhythm, right, it's notbecause we're made as rhythmic
creatures as well.
We could say more about that.
But the whole point, then, isthat when we have had so much
experience with trauma, thenotion of intimately connecting
(19:20):
with someone else very oftentouches those parts that feel
frightened, touches those partswhere my ruptures have not been
repaired, and then it feelspainful to be seen in that space
.
And so we'll take this coupleand we'll ask them to sit knees
(19:41):
to knees and gaze at each otherwith love and kindness, and
they're protesting like, do wereally have to do this?
And so forth, and it will takethem somewhere, you know,
somewhere in the range of 30 to90 seconds to get comfortable
with this.
And once they do, and they justbreathe in there and looking,
and when the five minutes are up, most of the time they don't
(20:02):
want to stop.
Because when is the last timethat you've allowed yourself the
joy and the comfort and theexhale of being seen, being
gazed upon?
Well, you gaze upon someonewith loving like, who doesn't
want to be seen with lovingkindness, who doesn't want to
hear the words You're here,you're here, yes, and so this
(20:27):
notion of being gazed upon ispractice.
But what's coming?
Teresa (20:36):
Oh, this is so good.
I love it.
And one of the things that youtalk about as we experience
healing from trauma, as we'reseen and part of the healing
process I think is telling ourstories is finding a safe place
where we can actually not justlet people see our face or our
(20:59):
body, but see the inside, seethe things that have happened to
us, the things that we'vewalked through, which, again,
scary, uncomfortable.
A lot of people are not used tothat.
So I guess my question is howdoes storytelling, really
(21:22):
revealing the inner parts ofourselves, help in the healing
process, like from theperspective of scripture and
then from the perspective of thelike neurobiology side?
Curt (21:34):
Yeah, well, there is this sense in which you mentioned the
woman with the bleeding problemproblem, right, and this is how
she's known, right, she doesn't, she doesn't really.
We don't even really give her aname in the new testament, in
the gospel's versions, she's theone with a bleeding problem.
(21:55):
Um, and I, and I think thegospel, in some respects, you
know the gospel writers again,the bible man, like it is, it's,
it's just, it's so brilliant.
It's just so brilliant becausethey're really, they're really
forcing the reader, they're,they're inviting the reader to
say like, this is a woman, thisis how the world sees her.
The world sees her like who isshe?
(22:16):
Oh, she's not Sarah or Mary orJoanne, she's the woman with the
bleeding problem.
Like, this is how the worldtalks about a woman of this kind
and so, and not only that, butshe has a particular sense of
herself and she sees herself asI'm a woman with a bleeding
(22:37):
problem.
This is the essence of who I am.
How many of our listeners havea sense that like, oh, who I am
is, and then we fill that blankin with some sense of our
brokenness, some sense of like,I'm divorced, I've been sexually
abused, I've been this, I'vebeen that and these things are
(22:59):
not untrue, but these are themonikers that we take on, like,
this is how we understand who weare.
This is the outside, this isthe outside of her.
In some respects, right, it isthe outside of her.
And yet it's also like, againthis story, like you can't get
away from the fact that shedoesn't just have leprosy, she
(23:20):
has this silent disorder thatactually comes from within her,
even physically, and it's what?
What?
It's the life giving sense,it's, it's blood, right, the
sense that there's there.
There is this like bleeding isgoing to talk to the one who's
going to bleed, right, and soshe in in mark's version, right,
like they're already in a hurrybecause they're on the way to
(23:41):
the priest's house where thedaughter is dying, and so when
there's urgency in the air andshe has a plan, there's a plan
for secret commando healing,right, I'm going to get in touch
, the garment get out, nobodygets hurt, nobody, no, like it's
all very silent.
And then, of course, she does,and we know the story that jesus
pauses and says stop, and andof course you can imagine what's
(24:03):
going on in her mind.
She's like, oh, my gosh, likewrong, like what has happened
and the text reads that and sheknew that she was healed because
she felt it in her body.
Now, of course, we wouldn'tknow it in real time because we
don't even know she exists yet.
Apparently, she would have hadto have told this story to
somebody else.
And she thinks that the projecthas been completed, that
(24:24):
healing has taken place, becauseshe thinks that's all.
This is who I am.
I'm the woman with the bleedingproblem and she's like nope,
we're not done here.
And he's like, he's not movingand like you can be aware, like
(24:47):
everybody's, like we got to getto the priest's house and she's
a speed bump along the way.
So not only all the otherreasons why now she's a holdup
in the procession and then shefinally comes with fear and
trembling.
Why should she be afraid?
(25:08):
She'd been healed.
With fear and trembling.
And the text reads and she fellat his feet and told him
everything about herself, atwhich point he says my daughter,
(25:28):
when has she ever heard this?
She doesn't have family, shedoesn't have a marriage, she
doesn't have children, she's gotnothing.
Her problem is so much biggerthan her bleeding and it would
be easy for us to just assumeyeah, she's got.
Like, her problem is so muchbigger than her bleeding and it
would be easy for us to justassume, yeah, she's healed.
It's like that's the issue, andJesus is not willing for it
(25:52):
merely to be the outside of thecup that is cleaned.
He's coming for the whole storyand we cannot find ourselves
being completely healed untiljesus is allowed to have access
to every single acre of theinterior part of my story.
(26:13):
That includes not just me, butalso includes generations before
me, and it is in that telling,telling everything about us,
just like she did, that she cannow know healing because she's
going to have to go out into theworld also like, but now the
world's going to know somethingdifferent about her.
(26:33):
Now the world's going to know.
We have to create a communityfor her, we have to create a
family for her.
This is j, to create a familyfor her, and this is Jesus in
Mark, chapter three.
Who's my mother?
Who are my brothers?
The one who does the will of myfather, the one who's willing
to come forward in front ofeverybody and acknowledge that.
She's the one.
You imagine how much couragethat took.
With fear and trembling shecomes In order for the whole
(26:56):
story to be told in order forthe story that she tells in her
head, which is that I don't havea family yes, I don't have a
family, yes, I don't havebleeding now, which is fine, but
she's not even thinking aboutall the other elements of her
life that she doesn't know.
She doesn't that she's notthinking about, but that Jesus
is coming for everything.
And this is the good news, andit can also be the uncomfortable
news, because he's coming foreverything, even the things that
(27:19):
I don't know, that I don't knowabout myself.
And this is why the telling ofour stories to others who are in
the position of asking usquestions about things about
ourselves that we wouldn't eventhink to ask because we've, so
long ago buried our connectionto them, because they're so
painful.
Teresa (27:40):
Yes, oh, I love that story so much and I love the way
you conveyed just the heart ofJesus toward that woman that he
wasn't willing to just let herbe healed, but he had to turn
around and make eye contact withher and he had to let her know
that she has been seen, not justhealed but seen too.
Oh, I love it.
(28:02):
And I'm thinking about thelistener who has never felt seen
, who has never felt like theyeven have a safe place to tell
their story to anybody.
What's a first brave step thatthey can take to say I, I
(28:22):
acknowledge that I need to beseen, that I feel unseen and I
don't even know where to start.
Curt (28:29):
Like, what would you say to that person?
Well, uh, you know, teresa,there is um, I, this, this is a,
this is a I think a commonquestion that many of us think.
You know, uh, when we hearthese I think a common question
that many of us think, when wehear this kind of a conversation
that we're having, my guesswould be that there would be
those of our listeners who arewaking up to something like,
(28:50):
really, you can actually do that, you can actually have those
kinds of conversations, butreally, really, when can we do
this?
Really, really, where can we dothis?
And it's easy for us to thinkthat this is only a human
endeavor until you ask thequestion that the author Paul
Borgman asks in his beautifulbook Genesis the story we
(29:11):
haven't heard.
When speaking of Abraham, drBorgman asked the question.
Dr Borgen asked the questionwho knows how many people God
(29:32):
asked to go with him to Canaanbefore in Abraham, he finally
found someone who said, yes,I'll go.
We don't know because there'sno story that's been told there,
but it's an important questionbecause, in many respects, what
God is doing in asking Abrahamto go to Canaan with God,
partner with him is.
God is saying to Abraham I wantto tell my story and I want you
to be a co-author with me in thestory that I am telling about
(29:55):
that.
I've been telling about theworld from the first page of the
Bible.
Y'all have had challenges withthis world from the first page
of the Bible.
Y'all have had challenges withthis, but it has not stopped.
My mission of this is the storythat we are going to tell for
humans.
I'm a storyteller.
I want to tell my story.
God wants a receptive audiencefor the story that he's telling.
Jesus comes and utters theseven great I am's in the gospel
(30:17):
of John I am the bread of life,I am the good shepherd and all
the other five and so forth andso on, and for us Christians
these are words of comfort andjoy, but they are the same words
that got him killed.
Which means what is he doing?
He's telling us his story.
He's not just downloadinginformation.
He's trying to tell us hisstory and he wants listeners who
(30:38):
will join in the storytellingof this.
When you get to Jesus, he also,like God with Abraham, he asks
a number of people to help himtell his story.
Will you listen to my story.
Sorry, I've got to go bury mydad, I've got to go check out
this plot of land.
There are plenty of people thatJesus asks to follow him who
(31:06):
say, no.
Jesus knows exactly what it'slike for us to be in this
position of people who are madeto tell our stories.
We long to hear our stories betold.
We're made for this.
This isn't just a thing that wehave to do as a way to heal,
like okay, otherwise, you know,if we'd never sinned, we
wouldn't really have to do thisstorytelling stuff and reveal
(31:28):
Like if we hadn't sinned, wewould be doing this.
All this is how we would beliving all the time, you know,
without guile, without shame.
This is what we we arestorytellers.
It's how we live.
Jesus knows what it's like to berejected when he offers and
invites people.
Would you listen to my story?
Would you follow me and listento my story?
No, and so for those of us whoask us the question like, how do
(31:52):
I do this?
Where do I find it, I want tosay look, this is not easy to do
and Jesus knows exactly whatthis is like.
So that's the first thing.
I know that's really wordy, butit's important for us to know
that this whole notion oftelling our stories in this way
is what it means to be human.
It's not, oh, the thing that Ihave to do or the only option
(32:12):
that I have in order for me tobe healed.
Right, the woman with thebleeding problem.
The telling of her story wasnot just well, this is the only
option Jesus is giving me inorder for me to be fully healed.
No, he's turning her into theperson that she was so to have
been from before the foundationof the world.
The telling of her story.
Teresa (32:33):
Okay, guys, I'm going to break in right here and
interrupt this conversation withDr Thompson, but you absolutely
have to come back for part twoNext week.
He's going to share about whatit means to be known, how we're
partners with God in creatingbeauty, the power of telling our
stories, and he's going to givepractical tips on how we can
(32:56):
actually rewire our brains sothat we can tell ourselves the
truest stories.
Thanks for hanging out with metoday on Beauty and the
Brokenness.
To find anything I mentioned onthe episode, go to
TeresaWhitingcom slash listen tofind all the show notes.
If you want to connect with DrKurt Thompson, I will have links
(33:19):
to all the ways you can connecthim.
Better yet, get on my emaillist, because I send out an
email every week with links tohow you can connect with the
guests, links to their books andsometimes some little
background information.
I pray that you have eyes tosee the beautiful redemptive
work of Jesus in the midst ofyour broken life.
(33:42):
I want to leave you with thisverse from Numbers 6, 24-26.
We long to hear our stories be told.
We're made for this.
This isn't just a thing that wehave to do as a way to heal,
like okay, otherwise, you know,if we'd never sinned, we
wouldn't really have to do thisstorytelling stuff and reveal
Like, if we hadn't sinned, wewould be doing this.
All this is how we would beliving all the time.
You know, without guile,without shame.
(00:22):
This is what we.
We are storytellers.
Without guile, without shame.
We are storytellers.
It's how we live.
Teresa (00:26):
There is a longing in every human heart to be seen and
known.
Sometimes we wonder does anyoneeven see me?
Does it even matter?
Do I even matter?
As we begin the Seen series, Icouldn't think of a better
podcast guest than Dr KurtThompson.
I deeply admire his work in thespace of interpersonal
(00:49):
neurobiology and how itintersects with our faith in
Jesus.
In today's episode, he shareswith us about the power of
storytelling and how it helps usheal.
He also shares a beautifulperspective on the story of
(01:22):
brings for healing.
I'm your host, teresa Whiting,an author, bible teacher and
trauma-informed life coach, butmostly a friend and fellow
struggler.
No matter who you are or whereyou've been, I'm inviting you to
encounter the God of rescue,redemption and restoration, the
God who is still creating beautyright in the midst of your
(01:46):
brokenness.
Well welcome friends.
I am so excited to introduceyou to my guest, dr Kurt
Thompson, today.
Dr Thompson is a psychiatrist,an author and a speaker who, in
my opinion, is a master atweaving together the
understanding of interpersonalneurobiology with a Christian
(02:09):
view of what it means to behuman.
He helps people process theirlongings, their grief, their
identity, their purpose, theirperspective of God and their
perspective of humanity,inviting them to engage more
authentically with their ownstories and their relationships.
He's also the author of severalbooks, two of which are my
(02:30):
favorites the Soul of Shame andthe Soul of Desire, and he's
also the host of the being Knownpodcast, and if you haven't
listened to that yet, I highlyencourage you to go over and
give it a listen and a follow.
So, kurt, thank you so much forbeing here today.
Curt (02:49):
Teresa, thank you so much for inviting me.
It's such a pleasure to be ableto have our conversation
together.
Yeah, really looking forward toit.
Teresa (02:55):
I'm excited.
Before we jump into a lot ofthe questions I have for you,
would you just tell thelisteners a little bit more
about yourself, and if you wantto throw in a fun fact, that'd
be great.
Curt (03:07):
Well, sure, thanks.
Well, probably some of theimportant things for me are I've
been married to Phyllis forabout 38 and a half years and we
have two adult kids, rachel,our daughter Rachel, who's
married and who gave birth toour first grandchild about three
months ago, which is a big deal.
Teresa (03:25):
Congrats.
Curt (03:27):
Yeah, thank you.
And then we have a son, nathan,who's 31.
So those relationships havebeen, I think, over the course
of the time that I've been inthe world with them have been
most formative.
I'm really grateful for that.
I don't have words and I oftensay to people I don't deserve my
life and my wife and my kidswould be.
(03:50):
And now our grandson andson-in-law are evidence of that.
Funds and I, you know, for myday job.
I have the privilege of livinghere in the Washington DC area
(04:12):
practicing as a psychiatrist,and over the course of the last
35 years or so I've had theopportunity to work with people
in a range of different medicaland psychiatric experiences that
they've had.
And as we, anybody who's apsychiatrist or a therapist
(04:32):
would say that you know ourpatients are the ones who teach
us more about life than anybodyelse in the world, and so it's
been humbling and gratifying tobe able to do that.
And then, over the last 20years in particular, I've had
the privilege of doing this workat the intersection of the
emerging field of interpersonalneurobiology kind of a fancy
(04:53):
schmancy term for lots ofdifferent scientific disciplines
that have a stake in, you know,being curious about what is the
mind, and what is the mind thatis flourishing?
Really being curious about thatand its intersection with a
Christian anthropology, as yousaid earlier.
What does it mean for us to behuman when we engage the
biblical text, when we encounterJesus?
(05:14):
How does that inform ourscience?
How does that inform all thethings?
And that brings me, then, tothe privilege of having this
conversation with you.
Teresa (05:27):
Well, I'm thrilled.
First of all, thank you forthat.
You know telling us a littlebit more about yourself, and one
of the things that you havesaid often and I feel like it's
part of the fabric of what youdo and teach is that we all come
into the world looking forsomeone, looking for us.
And I know we're jumping rightinto the questions, but there's
(05:49):
so many things I want to talkabout and I want to really jump
into understanding thatstatement.
Can you unpack that?
Curt (05:58):
Like everyone comes into the world looking for somebody
looking for them, Well, I thinkyou know, if we were to take the
world only on the world's terms, meaning like, if we don't look
at the Bible, if we don't dowhich much of the world doesn't
look at, the Bible isn't reallythinking about those kinds of
things.
If we just look at the world ofhow we come to understand how
(06:22):
humans develop, eventually, andespecially as we're informed by
the mechanics of the mind, whichis what interpersonal
neurobiology kind of reveals tous, how does the mind work?
What is the mind?
How does it work?
How does it work?
Well, what does it look like?
When human beings begin toflourish, we come to recognize
pretty quickly that we humanbeings are not isolated, siloed
(06:46):
beings.
Now, the world might tend toteach us that that's who we are.
Not explicitly it doesn't sayoh, you are by yourself in the
world, but we subtly andimplicitly form people into
believing that that's what weare with all kinds of implicit
messaging, and what that tendsthen to do is to put a lot of
(07:08):
pressure on each of us tobelieve that, oh, my goodness,
like I'm by myself in the worldand I need to figure out things
and I need to make my way in theworld and I self-identify in
the world, and what's sointeresting is that the
neuroscience would teach us thatnone of that is true.
In fact, that when a newborncomes into the world with about
100 billion neurons ready to goin their brain, only about 15 to
(07:31):
20% of those neurons are reallyable and ready to go to do what
that newborn needs them to do.
The other 20 to, you know, 20%,the other 80 to 85% of those
neurons, in order for them tobecome fully functioning,
actually need to have aninteraction with another human
being.
I have to have an interpersonalrelationship In order for me to
(07:52):
grow into a human.
I need to see someone seeing me, I need to hear someone hearing
me.
And, of course, in the world ofinterpersonal neurobiology,
we're really looking at theresearch in the field of
attachment that shows us that webecome more fully ourselves
through what we would call co-regulation of our emotional
(08:14):
distresses.
We become more fully ourselveswhen I hear my story being
spoken by you.
As you hear me tell my story, Idon't ever become fully who I
am, apart from my interactionwith other people.
Hence I come into the worldlooking for someone who's
looking for me and when you findme, moreover, when I discover,
(08:38):
when I become aware that you'vecome to find me, that expands,
that enables me to become morethan I otherwise would have
become, and then we say like, oh, that's, those are just the
mechanics of how the mind worked.
But then, you know, when youlook at the second page of the
Bible actually the first page ofthe Bible we see that when God
is creating the earth, when Godis like naming the things right,
he's bringing order and purpose.
That he says after day one, daytwo, day four, day five, day
(09:00):
six, it's good, it's good.
And there is the sense in which, at one level, we would say oh,
that's God looking at an objectand saying this thing that I've
created, it's beautiful, it'sgood.
What we sometimes miss is thenuance of the Hebrew, which is
also saying that the goodnessthat God sees, the goodness, the
beauty that God sees, that wordgood is interchangeable with
(09:22):
the word beauty in the.
Hebrew, the beauty and thegoodness actually emerges as a
function of being seen.
So we think how many people inthe world today, their lives are
going to be made differentbecause in our listeners?
Our listeners are going to gointo the world and all forth
beauty in other people's livesby virtue of seeing them.
(09:45):
I'm not just recognizing theirbeauty, but I'm calling it forth
by giving them the experienceof being seen by me.
So that's page one.
And then we get to page two ofthe Bible, where we read it's
not good for the man to be alone.
Right, we read let us makemankind in our image.
This notion that we are made associal creatures, we are made as
(10:05):
male and female, this notionthat, like I, do not bear the
image of God, apart from thefact that there are as a man,
apart from the fact that thereare women in the world, and the
same is true for women thatthere are men in the world.
We together are the image ofGod.
And so this notion of how themechanics of the mind reveal the
depth of the purpose of ourbeing known and being seen,
(10:27):
right, everybody's looking forsomeone, looking for them, we
would say.
Well, of course, it's areflection of what we read about
, that people have believed inthe Judeo-Christian heritage now
for over 4,000 years, and so Ithink it's really important,
then, for us to know that.
Oh goodness, in order for me toflourish, I have to answer the
question by whom am I being seen?
(10:48):
By whom am I being heard on aregular basis?
Teresa (10:52):
Yes, yes, and that's why all the things that you're
explaining, this is why I wantedto have this conversation with
you, because I'm currentlywriting a Bible study called
Seen, and it's all about thatdesire, that need, that innate
(11:13):
wiring, that we have to be seenand known, and I love how you
weave in both the interpersonalneurobiology and the biblical
truth.
Like we, this is a God-giventhing and, honestly, like I feel
like for myself, I have attimes felt like I want to be
(11:35):
seen, I want to be known, andI've almost seen that as like a
flaw or oh, that's a weakness,that's me being prideful or
whatever.
Like.
How do you explain that?
Curt (11:47):
as a good thing.
Well, I'm reminded of this.
You know I mentioned earlier.
You know, three months ago ourdaughter gave birth to our first
grandchild and even though theylive in Nashville, we live here
in the Northern Virginia areaso we don't get to be in person.
But they're moving toCharlottesville so we'll only be
two hours away.
I hope my daughter andson-in-law don't mind the fact
(12:08):
that every weekend I can be, I'mgoing to want to be in
Charlottesville, but even so, wesee pictures, we have little
videos of our son Simon, ourgrandson Simon, and this felt
sense of looking at him right,looking to be seen.
And you I mean anybody who'sbeen around newborns and infants
and toddlers right when theythey are completely unabashed,
(12:30):
they are guileless about wantingto be seen, they expect to be
seen right.
And we would never say to a sixmonth old who looking for the
parent looking for them, wewould never say to the
three-year-old who's looking formom and dad, especially if
she's in distress, but even ifshe comes in with her new art
project, that you have no ideawhat, that is right, but she's
(12:54):
looking to be seen.
We wouldn't say, oh, what areyou doing?
No, of course they do, and thenwe get to the gospels, where
Jesus says you know, unlessy'all change and become like
little children, heaven isn'tgoing to work for you.
This notion that we arepracticing for heaven, we are
(13:16):
practicing for a kingdom that iscoming, in which it will be
necessary for us to be able totolerate the gaze of a God who
is coming to find us with utterdelight.
And, as you know, we like to saywhen patients are coming into
(13:36):
our office, like we look, wehave all kinds of symptoms range
of trauma, anxiety, depression,addiction, you name it.
Anxiety, depression, addiction,you name it.
And so much of this is we, youknow, we look around at gosh,
they're having a hard time.
We see that loving other peopleis not easy for us to do, right
(13:56):
, and love seems to be so absentin our current cultural moment.
And yet, and so we say we'renot very good at that.
But the point, the reason we'renot very good at it, is because
we can't give what we don'thave, and what that means is
that the thing that we're evenless capable of doing is being
receptive to love.
We think that love is a goodthing.
(14:17):
We love love until loveactually shows up.
And then it because it shows upand it wants us to give it the
opportunity to let us be seen byit.
And it's a terrifying thing,because all of our trauma has
taken place in the context ofintimate relationships.
(14:38):
Our mind remembers that intimacy, as much as we long for it, is
dangerous.
It's like look, I can't getaway from being thirsty.
I have to have water to drink.
But what if the water that I'veconsumed has been contaminated?
And that's mostly what I know.
But I can't stop myself frombeing thirsty, and so I can't
keep myself from longing to beseen.
(15:00):
Of course I might want to say,oh, I should be able to do this
by myself.
I'm going to feel bad if I longto be seen, because that is
evil at work, trying to get usto forget that we are made as
relational creatures, that thisis what we are made to become.
But the very thing that we thenlong for, evil, wants to
(15:21):
reroute that and say, oh, no,that's not what you should need.
You should be able to do thison yourself, by yourself, and so
even the work that you're doing, teresa, no, that's not what
you should need.
You should be able to do thison yourself, by yourself, and so
even the work that you're doing, teresa.
These Bible studies are socrucial for folks because they
(15:42):
ground folks in a text.
It creates a hard deck in atext, a textual study that
enables people to have the feltsense that this longing that we
have, as much as we areimperfect at directing it, that
longing is the eternity that Godhas placed in our hearts, our
hunger and our thirst for him,and so that we have it is
(16:03):
evidence that there is a God andhe's coming for us.
Teresa (16:06):
Yes, yes, and so in the study there's going to be six
different women that are fromScripture, like Hagar and Leah
and the bleeding woman who, youknow, were completely discarded,
forsaken, cast off by the world, and yet God came looking for
them.
And you mentioned this littlephrase, the gaze of God, and I
(16:31):
would love to press into that alittle bit.
How do we accept that, how dowe acknowledge that God has come
looking for us?
He's calling us by name, he'spursuing us.
Like he's calling us by name,he's, he's pursuing us, and yet,
like you're saying, likethere's this fear of intimacy,
there's this fear of reallybeing fully seen and fully known
(16:54):
, even though that's what welong for.
We're afraid of it, you know.
And yet how do we get to aplace where we are accepting and
enjoying and living in thatbeautiful gaze of God toward us?
Curt (17:10):
Well, in the soul of desire.
We focus attention on thefourth verse of the 27th Psalm,
this notion that I will dwell inthe house of the Lord.
One thing I've asked I willdwell in the house of the Lord
all the days of my life, that Imay gaze upon his beauty.
I may gaze upon his beauty.
I may gaze upon his beauty, andthere are multiple dimensions
(17:30):
of that beauty.
And one dimension of thatbeauty is not just I'm gazing at
something that is beautiful,like the Grand Canyon or the
Pieta or a sunrise, but I'mgazing at someone who's gazing
at me.
We have this exercise that we dofor married couples.
That at first is somewhatuncomfortable for them,
(17:54):
especially if they're justcoming into the office in the
wake of having a fight.
But we have them sit knees toknees looking at each other.
We give them the assignment.
We're going to give them justfive minutes of this.
We say we're going to ask you,we get to take a couple of deep
breaths and then we're going toask you to look at each other
with love and kindness.
We want you to gaze at eachother Now.
(18:15):
I don't want you to stare.
You can blink, you can turnaway, but I want you to continue
to.
Of course, this is veryunnerving, if you can imagine.
I can feel it.
Mm-hmm, if you can imagine, Ican feel it.
Even the people that we likelike the whole notion of like
looking at people, right, whenyou look at newborns and infants
, when parents and grandparentsjust love to look at their kids,
(18:36):
and especially if their kidsare looking at them and they're
smiling, and so forth.
But there will come a momentwhen, for the child, the gaze
will be too much and they willlook away and then they'll
return.
It's like, oh, I can toleratelooking at beauty, I can
tolerate this for a certainamount of time, and then I have
(18:57):
to catch my breath because it'salmost like it's too much and
there is a sense in which wehave to practice doing this and
that's a rhythm, right, it's notbecause we're made as rhythmic
creatures as well.
We could say more about that.
But the whole point, then, isthat when we have had so much
experience with trauma, thenotion of intimately connecting
(19:20):
with someone else very oftentouches those parts that feel
frightened, touches those partswhere my ruptures have not been
repaired, and then it feelspainful to be seen in that space
.
And so we'll take this coupleand we'll ask them to sit knees
(19:41):
to knees and gaze at each otherwith love and kindness, and
they're protesting like, do wereally have to do this?
And so forth, and it will takethem somewhere, you know,
somewhere in the range of 30 to90 seconds to get comfortable
with this.
And once they do, and they justbreathe in there and looking,
and when the five minutes are up, most of the time they don't
(20:02):
want to stop.
Because when is the last timethat you've allowed yourself the
joy and the comfort and theexhale of being seen, being
gazed upon?
Well, you gaze upon someonewith loving like, who doesn't
want to be seen with lovingkindness, who doesn't want to
hear the words You're here,you're here, yes, and so this
(20:27):
notion of being gazed upon ispractice.
But what's coming?
Teresa (20:36):
Oh, this is so good.
I love it.
And one of the things that youtalk about as we experience
healing from trauma, as we'reseen and part of the healing
process I think is telling ourstories is finding a safe place
where we can actually not justlet people see our face or our
(20:59):
body, but see the inside, seethe things that have happened to
us, the things that we'vewalked through, which, again,
scary, uncomfortable.
A lot of people are not used tothat.
So I guess my question is howdoes storytelling, really
(21:22):
revealing the inner parts ofourselves, help in the healing
process, like from theperspective of scripture and
then from the perspective of thelike neurobiology side?
Curt (21:34):
Yeah, well, there is this sense in which you mentioned the
woman with the bleeding problemproblem, right, and this is how
she's known, right, she doesn't, she doesn't really.
We don't even really give her aname in the new testament, in
the gospel's versions, she's theone with a bleeding problem.
(21:55):
Um, and I, and I think thegospel, in some respects, you
know the gospel writers again,the bible man, like it is, it's,
it's just, it's so brilliant.
It's just so brilliant becausethey're really, they're really
forcing the reader, they're,they're inviting the reader to
say like, this is a woman, thisis how the world sees her.
The world sees her like who isshe?
(22:16):
Oh, she's not Sarah or Mary orJoanne, she's the woman with the
bleeding problem.
Like, this is how the worldtalks about a woman of this kind
and so, and not only that, butshe has a particular sense of
herself and she sees herself asI'm a woman with a bleeding
(22:37):
problem.
This is the essence of who I am.
How many of our listeners havea sense that like, oh, who I am
is, and then we fill that blankin with some sense of our
brokenness, some sense of like,I'm divorced, I've been sexually
abused, I've been this, I'vebeen that and these things are
(22:59):
not untrue, but these are themonikers that we take on, like,
this is how we understand who weare.
This is the outside, this isthe outside of her.
In some respects, right, it isthe outside of her.
And yet it's also like, againthis story, like you can't get
away from the fact that shedoesn't just have leprosy, she
(23:20):
has this silent disorder thatactually comes from within her,
even physically, and it's what?
What?
It's the life giving sense,it's, it's blood, right, the
sense that there's there.
There is this like bleeding isgoing to talk to the one who's
going to bleed, right, and soshe in in mark's version, right,
like they're already in a hurrybecause they're on the way to
(23:41):
the priest's house where thedaughter is dying, and so when
there's urgency in the air andshe has a plan, there's a plan
for secret commando healing,right, I'm going to get in touch
, the garment get out, nobodygets hurt, nobody, no, like it's
all very silent.
And then, of course, she does,and we know the story that jesus
pauses and says stop, and andof course you can imagine what's
(24:03):
going on in her mind.
She's like, oh, my gosh, likewrong, like what has happened
and the text reads that and sheknew that she was healed because
she felt it in her body.
Now, of course, we wouldn'tknow it in real time because we
don't even know she exists yet.
Apparently, she would have hadto have told this story to
somebody else.
And she thinks that the projecthas been completed, that
(24:24):
healing has taken place, becauseshe thinks that's all.
This is who I am.
I'm the woman with the bleedingproblem and she's like nope,
we're not done here.
And he's like, he's not movingand like you can be aware, like
(24:47):
everybody's, like we got to getto the priest's house and she's
a speed bump along the way.
So not only all the otherreasons why now she's a holdup
in the procession and then shefinally comes with fear and
trembling.
Why should she be afraid?
(25:08):
She'd been healed.
With fear and trembling.
And the text reads and she fellat his feet and told him
everything about herself, atwhich point he says my daughter,
(25:28):
when has she ever heard this?
She doesn't have family, shedoesn't have a marriage, she
doesn't have children, she's gotnothing.
Her problem is so much biggerthan her bleeding and it would
be easy for us to just assumeyeah, she's got.
Like, her problem is so muchbigger than her bleeding and it
would be easy for us to justassume, yeah, she's healed.
It's like that's the issue, andJesus is not willing for it
(25:52):
merely to be the outside of thecup that is cleaned.
He's coming for the whole storyand we cannot find ourselves
being completely healed untiljesus is allowed to have access
to every single acre of theinterior part of my story.
(26:13):
That includes not just me, butalso includes generations before
me, and it is in that telling,telling everything about us,
just like she did, that she cannow know healing because she's
going to have to go out into theworld also like, but now the
world's going to know somethingdifferent about her.
(26:33):
Now the world's going to know.
We have to create a communityfor her, we have to create a
family for her.
This is j, to create a familyfor her, and this is Jesus in
Mark, chapter three.
Who's my mother?
Who are my brothers?
The one who does the will of myfather, the one who's willing
to come forward in front ofeverybody and acknowledge that.
She's the one.
You imagine how much couragethat took.
With fear and trembling shecomes In order for the whole
(26:56):
story to be told in order forthe story that she tells in her
head, which is that I don't havea family yes, I don't have a
family, yes, I don't havebleeding now, which is fine, but
she's not even thinking aboutall the other elements of her
life that she doesn't know.
She doesn't that she's notthinking about, but that Jesus
is coming for everything.
And this is the good news, andit can also be the uncomfortable
news, because he's coming foreverything, even the things that
(27:19):
I don't know, that I don't knowabout myself.
And this is why the telling ofour stories to others who are in
the position of asking usquestions about things about
ourselves that we wouldn't eventhink to ask because we've, so
long ago buried our connectionto them, because they're so
painful.
Teresa (27:40):
Yes, oh, I love that story so much and I love the way
you conveyed just the heart ofJesus toward that woman that he
wasn't willing to just let herbe healed, but he had to turn
around and make eye contact withher and he had to let her know
that she has been seen, not justhealed but seen too.
Oh, I love it.
(28:02):
And I'm thinking about thelistener who has never felt seen
, who has never felt like theyeven have a safe place to tell
their story to anybody.
What's a first brave step thatthey can take to say I, I
(28:22):
acknowledge that I need to beseen, that I feel unseen and I
don't even know where to start.
Curt (28:29):
Like, what would you say to that person?
Well, uh, you know, teresa,there is um, I, this, this is a,
this is a I think a commonquestion that many of us think.
You know, uh, when we hearthese I think a common question
that many of us think, when wehear this kind of a conversation
that we're having, my guesswould be that there would be
those of our listeners who arewaking up to something like,
(28:50):
really, you can actually do that, you can actually have those
kinds of conversations, butreally, really, when can we do
this?
Really, really, where can we dothis?
And it's easy for us to thinkthat this is only a human
endeavor until you ask thequestion that the author Paul
Borgman asks in his beautifulbook Genesis the story we
(29:11):
haven't heard.
When speaking of Abraham, drBorgman asked the question.
Dr Borgen asked the questionwho knows how many people God
(29:32):
asked to go with him to Canaanbefore in Abraham, he finally
found someone who said, yes,I'll go.
We don't know because there'sno story that's been told there,
but it's an important questionbecause, in many respects, what
God is doing in asking Abrahamto go to Canaan with God,
partner with him is.
God is saying to Abraham I wantto tell my story and I want you
to be a co-author with me in thestory that I am telling about
(29:55):
that.
I've been telling about theworld from the first page of the
Bible.
Y'all have had challenges withthis world from the first page
of the Bible.
Y'all have had challenges withthis, but it has not stopped.
My mission of this is the storythat we are going to tell for
humans.
I'm a storyteller.
I want to tell my story.
God wants a receptive audiencefor the story that he's telling.
Jesus comes and utters theseven great I am's in the gospel
(30:17):
of John I am the bread of life,I am the good shepherd and all
the other five and so forth andso on, and for us Christians
these are words of comfort andjoy, but they are the same words
that got him killed.
Which means what is he doing?
He's telling us his story.
He's not just downloadinginformation.
He's trying to tell us hisstory and he wants listeners who
(30:38):
will join in the storytellingof this.
When you get to Jesus, he also,like God with Abraham, he asks
a number of people to help himtell his story.
Will you listen to my story.
Sorry, I've got to go bury mydad, I've got to go check out
this plot of land.
There are plenty of people thatJesus asks to follow him who
(31:06):
say, no.
Jesus knows exactly what it'slike for us to be in this
position of people who are madeto tell our stories.
We long to hear our stories betold.
We're made for this.
This isn't just a thing that wehave to do as a way to heal,
like okay, otherwise, you know,if we'd never sinned, we
wouldn't really have to do thisstorytelling stuff and reveal
(31:28):
Like if we hadn't sinned, wewould be doing this.
All this is how we would beliving all the time, you know,
without guile, without shame.
This is what we we arestorytellers.
It's how we live.
Jesus knows what it's like to berejected when he offers and
invites people.
Would you listen to my story?
Would you follow me and listento my story?
No, and so for those of us whoask us the question like, how do
(31:52):
I do this?
Where do I find it, I want tosay look, this is not easy to do
and Jesus knows exactly whatthis is like.
So that's the first thing.
I know that's really wordy, butit's important for us to know
that this whole notion oftelling our stories in this way
is what it means to be human.
It's not, oh, the thing that Ihave to do or the only option
(32:12):
that I have in order for me tobe healed.
Right, the woman with thebleeding problem.
The telling of her story wasnot just well, this is the only
option Jesus is giving me inorder for me to be fully healed.
No, he's turning her into theperson that she was so to have
been from before the foundationof the world.
The telling of her story.
Teresa (32:33):
Okay, guys, I'm going to break in right here and
interrupt this conversation withDr Thompson, but you absolutely
have to come back for part twoNext week.
He's going to share about whatit means to be known, how we're
partners with God in creatingbeauty, the power of telling our
stories, and he's going to givepractical tips on how we can
(32:56):
actually rewire our brains sothat we can tell ourselves the
truest stories.
Thanks for hanging out with metoday on Beauty and the
Brokenness.
To find anything I mentioned onthe episode, go to
TeresaWhitingcom slash listen tofind all the show notes.
If you want to connect with DrKurt Thompson, I will have links
(33:19):
to all the ways you can connecthim.
Better yet, get on my emaillist, because I send out an
email every week with links tohow you can connect with the
guests, links to their books andsometimes some little
background information.
I pray that you have eyes tosee the beautiful redemptive
work of Jesus in the midst ofyour broken life.
(33:42):
I want to leave you with thisverse from Numbers 6, 24-26.
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