October 14, 2025 • 39 mins
Tired of waiting for God to answer your prayers? Pastor Dustin Crowe and Teresa Whiting explore how hardships can lead to spiritual growth, deeper faith, and a clearer understanding of God’s purpose.
Whether you’re walking through a difficult season, seeking hope in suffering, or wondering how God might be at work in your life, listen in for encouragement, biblical insight, and practical guidance for finding meaning and purpose in your wilderness.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
to not try to figure out okay, how is this going to
end?
Is this going to turn outbetter?
But all you do is say, okay,god, I need strength for today,
I need wisdom for today, I needhelp for today.
I don't know how I'm going tomake it through, whether it's
that next meeting, or takingcare of the kids, or an aging
parent, whatever it is, I don'tknow how I'm going to get
through this.
And all we have to do is askthe Lord okay, I don't have to
(00:28):
know, but you will give mestrength for today and this
trial and this season.
Speaker 2 (00:30):
Hi, friend, if you've ever wondered how God's word
connects with the messy, brokenparts of your story, you're in
the right place.
Welcome to Beauty in theBrokenness, where we have honest
conversations about the Bible,our real life struggles, where
we have honest conversationsabout the Bible, our real-life
struggles and the hope Godbrings for healing.
I'm your host, teresa Whiting,an author, bible teacher and
(00:51):
trauma-informed life coach, butmostly a friend and fellow
struggler.
No matter who you are or whereyou've been, I'm inviting you to
encounter the God of rescue,redemption and restoration, the
God who is still creating beautyright in the midst of your
brokenness.
Well, welcome, friends.
(01:14):
I'm excited to introduce you tomy new friend and my guest today
, dustin Crow.
Dustin is a discipleship pastorat Stones Crossing Church just
outside of Indianapolis, indiana.
He and his wife have two youngkids, and Dustin is the author
of several books, including yourWilderness is Not a Waste.
And so, dustin, I'm excited tohave you on the podcast today.
(01:37):
If you would just tell thelisteners a little bit more
about who you are and what youdo.
Speaker 1 (01:43):
Yeah, thanks for having me on Excited to be here.
So I'm a discipleship pastor.
That means I kind of overseeadult ministries like classes,
men's and women's ministries,small groups.
That's what I've done for thelast decade Occasionally preach
and whatever else they ask me todo at church.
Yeah, my family my wife and Ilive outside of Indianapolis two
little kids, eight and four, sowe stay pretty busy with them
(02:07):
and, yeah, that's about it rightnow.
Speaker 2 (02:10):
Great, great.
So you wrote this book.
Your Wilderness is Not a Waste.
God's Purpose in Suffering andStruggles and that's a topic I
love to talk about, and we'veactually been going through the
story of Hagar on the podcast,so this is kind of a perfect
conversation for us to have thatcomplements her story.
(02:31):
But why did you write this?
What inspired you to write thisand what are your hopes that
the readers will take away fromthis?
Speaker 1 (02:39):
Yeah, usually there are several things kind of
converging when you decide towrite a book.
But I think one of the mainthings I've experienced
personally, but especially as apastor, what I kind of felt this
common theme would come up inpeople where, when we go through
hard things and pain and justthose dark seasons of life, we
tend to believe I tend tobelieve the worst of God, that
(02:59):
this means that either he'sfailed me or abandoned me or
this period of my life is awaste and I just need to get
through this as quickly aspossible.
But the more I read and studyscripture, you see that's
clearly not true, that in thosehard seasons and dark seasons,
the wilderness seasons, thoseare often where God is doing the
most work in us.
(03:20):
Sometimes it's subtle,sometimes it's clear, but he
makes himself known.
And so I just wanted to be ableto help people, help myself,
kind of, have windows to see oh,like God can work, and God does
work in those hard, painfulwilderness seasons, especially
if we're paying attention, if welet him do that.
Speaker 2 (03:37):
What would you say a wilderness like?
How would you define awilderness season?
What does that mean?
Speaker 1 (03:43):
Yeah, so in the Bible I try to stick to like they're
actually in a physicalwilderness, but a few common
things you see in a wildernessseason.
I think this translates to kindof spiritual life.
Often it was a place of lack ofresources so you don't have the
things you think you need.
They didn't have food and waterin the wilderness Usually a
place of like danger, so there'sa threat.
(04:04):
But also the wilderness usuallya place of like danger, so
there's a threat.
But also the wilderness is kindof dual opportunity.
It can be a place that pushesyou to the brink and even
challenges your faith, or aplace where you see God show up.
So I think in our lives thatwilderness translates to kind of
lack of resources is one.
So maybe there's a lack ofanswers for health struggles, a
lack of finances, relationalemptiness, but there's also
(04:31):
those dangers and threats.
The reality is, when we aregoing through pain, that we feel
like our faith kind of is beingpressed and it can either lead
to growth or it can crush anddiscourage us.
So I think those trials,temptations, troubles are how I
define wilderness seasons.
Speaker 2 (04:44):
Yeah, that's just the common experience of life.
Speaker 1 (04:48):
Yeah, and they can be small or big, I think sometimes
we think, well, suffering isonly those worst case scenarios.
But I really think in the Bibleand in our lives, you know, we
experience suffering indifferent degrees.
But there is ordinary suffering.
That's very hard, you know,seasons of waiting.
Sometimes it's hard to describeto people like why this is so
painful to me or why this feelsso hard, or discouraging,
(05:09):
because it's not like the bigkind of suffering and yet that's
real suffering.
Speaker 2 (05:15):
Yeah, I appreciate you acknowledging that, because
I think there's people who feelmaybe we compare our suffering.
Oh, I'm not going through whatthat person's going through, so
I shouldn't be complaining.
And it doesn't mean it's notpainful, so I'm glad you brought
that out In your book.
you talk about all thesedifferent biblical characters
and their different wildernessexperiences.
(05:38):
I'm curious.
Well, I'd love for you to talkabout who are these characters
and maybe just give us a littletaste of like what each of their
stories is.
But then also, did you see anycommon themes, Like what were
the common things that youpulled out among these
characters and what emerged fromtheir wilderness seasons?
Speaker 1 (06:01):
Yeah Well, I'll say, when I first started like
reading on the topic andteaching on it, I thought it
would be more of like thewilderness generation.
Yeah Well, I'll say, when Ifirst started like reading on
the topic and teaching on it, Ithought it would be more of like
the wilderness generation inIsrael, and that's a part of the
book.
But then I did start to findall these characters and it felt
like their stories were socompelling and unique.
And so I go through Hagar andmaybe I'll save that.
We'll talk more about her,since you mentioned Hagar.
(06:22):
But we talk about Moses, andMoses in particular his 40 years
.
So he has this kind of climbwhere it looks like his life
will be great.
He's in Pharaoh's house, hegrows up there and then after he
kills someone, he has to run,and so there's this 40-year
period before God calls him tofree his people, where it feels
kind of like his life has passedhim by and he's wasting.
(06:44):
And I think the story of Mosesresonates with our.
Sometimes it feels like lifehas passed me by or I'm not
doing the things I thought I'dbe doing at this age, and so
Moses' story really speaks tothat.
Talk about David and David's inthe wilderness a lot in his
life.
He spends probably 15 to 20years of his life in the
wilderness, a couple ofdifferent times.
(07:06):
And yet what's unique aboutDavid is we also have his Psalms
, so we not only have, like, thenarrative of him being in the
wilderness, but we get his likejournal to talk about how God is
at work.
So you know, david is willingto lament the pain in the
wilderness but he also rejoicesand gives thanks and talks about
how he experiences God asrefuge.
So David is a great example.
(07:27):
I go to Elijah.
Elijah goes in the wilderness.
Kind of his is different.
It's really like despair.
When Elijah enters thewilderness he's like I'm done,
god, I'm tired of this, I havenothing left, take me.
And so his is like kind ofcomplete despair from that point
.
And then you have to go to Jesus.
If you're going to talk aboutcharacters in the Bible, you
(07:47):
should go with Jesus, and so Italked a little bit about Jesus
going into the wildernesshimself.
So how does he fight temptation?
But ultimately, as we start totrace this theme of wilderness
from the Bible's beginning toend, I think Jesus is the answer
.
Because when Jesus defeats sin,jesus gives us this promise
that one day in the future thewilderness will be completely
(08:08):
gone when he returns, and so hegives us that hope that, no
matter how bad this life is, wehave this promise one day the
wilderness will end.
Even if our trials here don't,there will be a day where the
wilderness goes away and we havethese oasis of water, and so I
think Jesus is important forthat as well.
Speaker 2 (08:30):
I love that when you were talking about Moses and you
were saying you know, he feltlike he's wasting away, he's
wasting his years.
I was just journaling the otherday, like this feeling of like
I'm too late, I'm too late, I'mtoo old, like well, I should
have done this whatever yearsago, and really just wrestling
(08:52):
with that idea of like I and Idon't really, I came at the end
of my journal entry.
I'm like no, I think I'm, I'mwhere I'm supposed to be and and
right on time.
Like God is not, like well, youshould.
If you had started this 20years ago like so-and-so did, I
kind of came around to say no,I've lived the life that God has
(09:14):
given me and maybe I'm right ontime.
But it was a roundabout journalentry kind of long and
wandering.
But I do think that that comesto us often of like, what am I
doing?
I'm wasting time, I should havebeen doing this or I should be
at this place in my life and I'mnot, so that really resonated
(09:37):
with me.
And then you were talking aboutElijah and the despair that
drove him there and Jesus, andI'm like it's cool because all
these different stories bringout different facets of a
wilderness experience, but it'salmost like, but I can relate to
that one in this way and I canrelate to that one in this way,
and so I love how God, you know,in the scriptures, he brings
(10:00):
out characters that we allrelate to.
We're like, yes, brings outcharacters that we all relate to
.
We're like, yes, that's mystory too.
So I appreciate that.
And I wanted to ask you becausea lot of times we have these
predictable ways that we respondto hardship, respond to
wilderness.
What do you see your work as apastor and just your
(10:22):
interactions with people?
What do you feel like arecommon responses to the
wilderness and or is it uniqueto every person, or are there
things that are like this is apretty common wilderness
response.
Speaker 1 (10:35):
Yeah, I think there's always some commonalities, but
each person is a little unique,like I think.
For me, I've noticed, and maybeyou know, as I get older, um,
but I go pretty quickly todiscouragement, maybe even
despair, where it's like, okay,if I can't change this, I can't
figure it out.
Um, it's less like anxiety.
I have other people in my lifewho maybe their response is
(10:57):
anxiousness I want to work totry to control this, um or maybe
anger I got to fix this.
I think those are commonresponses For me.
It's more like I almost feellike stuck, defeated, like I
don't know what to do, and thenI just feel overwhelmingly
discouraged.
So I think some people kind ofyou freeze, you get discouraged,
whereas other people, like Isaid, they come into like fix it
(11:18):
mode and either there's this,the symptoms of anxiety and
anger and worry, but really it'sI want to control this, I want
to fix this, how do I get myselfout, how do I make this better?
And then I think there areothers who do more of the.
I'm going to run the oppositeway.
I don't like the wilderness andagain, I think you see this in
Israel I don't like being here,this cannot be for good, and so
(11:39):
I'm going to resist this, and Ithink that's where you get more
of the questioning questioningGod's character, questioning
this season and just I got toget out of here and I'm going to
go backwards.
So I think those are somecommon experiences.
Speaker 2 (11:53):
Yeah, I'm trying to think.
I think my experience, like myMO, is, I'm going to, I'm going
to just make more lists and domore things, like if I can keep
myself busy enough and I'llstart feeling better because I'm
checking all these boxes off.
I think that's probably my wayof dealing with those feelings,
(12:17):
when you feel out of control andfeeling lack and feeling and
it's control, right, it's likeif I'm doing things, then I feel
like I'm in control of thesituation.
Yeah, yeah, I think it's andit's control, right.
It's like if I'm doing things,then I feel like I'm in control
of the situation.
Speaker 1 (12:27):
Yeah, yeah, I think, tied to waiting, one of the
things in the wilderness you dosee a lot, no matter what is
waiting is that element, and sothat's one of the hardest thing
to do is to wait, because it isout of our control.
And so, yeah, I think some ofus okay, what can I do?
And there can be a good elementto that, because we do have, we
should be doing things.
But that can become well, Ijust had to keep busy or I got
(12:47):
to do all the things as aresponse to this.
Waiting is so hard, I can't, Ican't be still and know I need
to do so.
I think that's probably acommon response as well.
Speaker 2 (12:58):
Okay.
So then what's a healthyresponse?
What would you say is here's abetter way to walk through your
wilderness season.
Speaker 1 (13:07):
I think there are a lot.
I think part of that islearning If waiting is essential
and, again, waiting is so hard.
Part of that is saying okay, Itrust the Lord, so you have to
know His promises.
I think it begins with do Iknow the Lord's character and
His promises?
Because he does promise that heis with me and he is at work in
all things to work thistogether for my good.
So he's not distant, he's notabsent, he's not punishing me.
(13:30):
And when I know his character,I know his promises, that allows
me to kind of pump the brakesand say I do need to wait on him
.
I know in my life, whenever Itry to get ahead of him or I try
to fix this or open doors,that's never gone well.
And so learning to say, okay,god, your plan is probably
better than mine, even thoughit's really hard for me to wait
on that.
So I'm going to do what yourword says of pausing and waiting
(13:53):
on you, and that's not justwaiting for things to change,
but literally waiting on God,waiting on him to work.
So you're praying to him,asking him to change things,
waiting on him in the sense oflike trusting him, choosing to
say I don't see what you'redoing.
I don't like this, but I trustyou Also, I think, choosing to
see the good, that in every hardday, every hard season, you
(14:16):
know there's this weirdcombination of the brokenness
but also beauty, that there'sordinary blessings, and I think
we can't see those as well whenlife is hard.
But the more you see those, themore you give thanks for those
things.
It helps you in the waiting toknow, like, okay, there are good
things as well.
I got to cling to those.
So I think, prayer, going toscripture, knowing those
(14:37):
promises and then seeing who Godis.
So we wait on him and trust inhim and then even ask okay, what
are you doing?
I think one thing that's beenhelpful for me in the last
couple of years in wildernessseasons is learning to say OK,
I'm struggling because Isometimes think you're not doing
anything or I don't like whatyou're doing, and so I've had to
change the question to ask OK,you are always doing something
(15:00):
good, help me see what you aredoing.
So it's not necessarily myagenda, but you have an agenda.
I want to see that and knowthat and be patient enough to
wait for that.
So show me what you are doing,help me see it and that helps me
trust in the waiting.
Speaker 2 (15:17):
Yes, okay, a couple of things about your answer.
First of all, I love how youbrought out the beauty in the
brokenness, because, okay, sowhen I first invited you onto
this podcast, it was called FindHope here, but it's now called
Beauty and the Brokenness Idon't know if you're aware of
that, but that is the name ofthis podcast, so that message is
so.
It's like that's my heart.
(15:37):
But also I like what you saidabout asking questions.
In a season of trial ordifficulty, we're making demands
or we're talking a lot andwe're not asking a lot of
questions.
Like God, how can you use this?
Or what am I to be learning?
(15:58):
Or how can I, instead of justquick, like get me out of here,
I'm done Like, wait, pause,what's happening inside of me?
Why am I responding this way?
What's coming up in me?
I think that learning to askourselves questions is such a
healthy thing, but it's not ourusual MO, it's not mine anyway.
(16:19):
But I'm starting to learn topause and ask myself why am I
having this kind of response tothis situation?
What's going on inside of me?
That's saying get me out ofhere right now?
One of the things you talkabout is that the wilderness is
not a waste.
There's purpose, and you talkeda little bit about that just
(16:41):
now the beauty that you can find.
Do you have other ways thatpeople can really begin to dig
into that, to find the purposein this painful season?
Are there other I don't knowstrategies or prayers or
anything that you can think ofthat would say this is, this is
how you can go through thisseason and come out on the other
(17:03):
end and say, oh, that wasn't awaste, that was worthwhile.
Speaker 1 (17:07):
Yeah, and I think you're right.
I think question asking is a bigpart of that.
So even in the book at the endI try to give reflective
questions because I thinkanytime we're going to grow, and
especially grow through thewilderness, it does require
pausing and reflecting, andwe're probably not great at that
as a culture, and especially inpain you don't really feel like
doing like self-reflection.
But I think if you can't askthat, I know for me again, in
(17:34):
any trial, part of what happensis that God is revealing things
in me, and sometimes that isrevealing like the areas where
I'm struggling to trust him orwhere I'm being too self-reliant
.
And so I think, if we ask thosequestions, okay, god, no matter
what, why I'm in thiswilderness you want to do
something good, not just for mebut in me.
You're wanting to shape me andchange me, but for that to
happen, I have to kind of see itand recognize.
(17:55):
So asking the question how areyou trying to change me and
shape me?
And what's the good thing youwant to do in my faith while I'm
here?
Because, like you said, I thinkpart of how we grow through the
wilderness, instead of wastingit, is allowing God to use it.
And again, as a pastor, I doexperience a lot of people who
don't necessarily grow throughthe wilderness, because they
(18:16):
kind of just put their head downand say this can't be good, god
can't use this and I'm justgoing to get through it.
And there isn't always a lot ofgrowth and they kind of have to
go through it again and againbecause God's trying to teach
them things.
Sometimes he's trying to teachthem more of who he is, that he
will be the one that providesfor them, or he's revealing
Himself to them in thewilderness, and sometimes it is
to change us, to help us see,okay, these are some things that
(18:39):
you need to grow while you'rehere, but you have to be willing
to ask it, see it and then kindof submit it to God.
So I do think self-reflectionof asking good questions what is
God doing?
What's he trying to do in me?
How is God showing up?
One of the things you see inevery wilderness situation is,
typically God allows it to getpretty dark, because then we are
(18:59):
stripped of hope and strippedof resources.
We can't rely upon anyone else,and that tends to be the moment
God shows up.
And so that's the question Okay, how can God show up and how is
he showing up?
We have to ask that questionand then maybe ask others.
I think there's some of us andsome personalities that have a
really hard time.
If they do self-reflection.
It tends toward guilt and likeover-analyzation, and we need
(19:22):
other people to help us see,like could you help me see what
God's been doing in my life,help me see the good of God in
the world, and so we kind ofneed community to help with that
side of things.
Those are a couple of ways Ithink we don't waste the
wilderness.
Speaker 2 (19:40):
I love that.
I love that you're talkingabout community because you're
right.
I think we can isolate and belike I'm not going to talk about
this, I'm not going to sharethis, I'm not going to burden
somebody else with my problems,but then we're robbing other
people of the blessing ofspeaking into our life.
We're robbing ourselves of theblessing of hearing from them.
So I love that.
That thought about you knowcommunity and those were, those
(20:00):
were a lot of really goodsuggestions.
Speaker 1 (20:03):
So I appreciate that and I was going to say Elijah,
like he's one of the examples,like when he goes into the
wilderness he starts he'straveling with an assistant and
then he leaves them and he goesinto the wilderness all by
himself and it does feel likethere's a.
The narrative is written toshow like that's not a wise
thing, because he is isolated.
That probably leads to some ofhis despair, whereas if he had
(20:26):
his friend with him, that friendcould have spoken some truth to
him.
And again it makes sense where,when we're in a trial or when
things are dark, we don't wantto burden people or we don't
even know how to express whatwe're feeling and going through.
And are they going tounderstand?
Am I going to, you know?
Look like I'm making a big dealout of a small thing.
And so we start to isolate moreand more and then we start
(20:47):
believing lies about ourselvesand we don't have people to
speak truth, to counter thoselies, and that's where it just
becomes a really, really darkand dangerous place.
Speaker 2 (20:56):
And doesn't God tell him to come out of the
wilderness and go find Elisha,isn't?
Speaker 1 (21:01):
that when he's like hey go get this buddy.
Yeah, you need that yeah.
Speaker 2 (21:06):
Yeah, Okay.
So we've got to get to Hagar,because that's kind of what
we've been talking about on thepodcast is Hagar's story, and
when I saw the title of yourbook I was like, oh, this is
perfect to talk about, becauseshe obviously finds herself in
the wilderness not just once,but twice, you know, the first
(21:26):
time when she runs away, thesecond time when she's banished.
So I'd love to hear yourperspective.
You know I've talked about it.
We've had some women on thepodcast to talk about it, but
let's hear your perspective on.
You know what God was doingthrough Hagar and in Hagar, in
her wilderness.
Speaker 1 (21:45):
Okay, I could probably talk about this for a
long time.
I really liked her story and somy book starts with it because
I think it is one of the mostpowerful stories.
She is there twice.
She's the first person inscripture to name God, so when
she's in the wilderness shenames you are God who sees.
That seems like a pretty bigdeal when you're a person who
gets to name God, and so hertime in the wilderness is
(22:07):
somewhat unique.
I think her story really speaksto again a lot of what we
experience.
Her situation was she wasneglected.
Obviously she was like thesecond woman in Abraham's life,
and so there's this sense ofbeing overlooked, being abused.
Her life was just hard in somany ways, and so when we read
it, it makes sense to us likewhy she felt the need to run.
(22:30):
She was in a place of pain,place of rejection, like there's
almost nothing good in her life, and she runs, and yet what's
beautiful about the story isshe's given up.
She's kind of there in despair.
Where do I go?
Like I have no home, I have nopeople, I have no family, and
yet God shows up and God seesher, and I like it because she
(22:51):
names like God sees me.
But then she says I have seenyou.
And so she has this play onwords where God now I learn God
sees me, but now I know him, Isee him and I hear him.
So it's a beautiful thing.
I mean, I imagine she probablyhad heard a little bit about
this God from Abraham and Sarah,but now in the wilderness he
reveals himself, he shows up, heprovides.
(23:14):
It's just a beautiful pictureof almost God being a husband to
her, of taking care of her andloving her and meeting her in
her brokenness and her need andtaking care of her.
And then it happens again Partof why I like her story and
David of her.
And then it happens again, partof why like her story and David,
they both have two verydistinct wilderness seasons and
I think sometimes we can believelike we go through something
(23:35):
really hard and we think, okay,it's done, I've done my
wilderness season, I'm good, andthat's just not how life is
with a Christian life.
We will go through manywilderness seasons.
And so she has the second time.
It's very similar, but now shehas a son and I just can't
imagine how painful that is andshe has no way of providing for
her son caring for him.
(23:55):
They're just stuck and again,god sees her, sees the situation
, proves his love, provides thewater they need, and so it's a
reminder that God has alreadyplanned.
He leads her to this well shedoesn't know about.
He's provided the water, and soI think, in the wilderness,
it's a reminder, like, whateverthat provision you need, whether
it's a person or strength orsomething else, god has already
(24:18):
put it there.
You don't know it yet, but hehas it wherever.
He's guiding you and he's goingto meet you there and he's
actually.
He sees you, he knows you, hehears you and he wants to make
himself known to you.
So I love the story.
It's a great story.
Speaker 2 (24:31):
Yes, yes, I think she's.
I always say, oh, I think she'sone of my favorites, but I have
a lot of favorites Her story isso good, every character and
every book becomes the newfavorite.
Speaker 1 (24:42):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (24:43):
Yes, I'd love to hear if you're willing to share some
of your own wilderness seasonsthat you've walked through and
how you've seen God work in yourlife.
We've talked about some of thescriptural examples, but can you
give us an example from yourlife of maybe a wilderness
season that you walked throughand what God taught you?
Speaker 1 (25:05):
I could share a couple, and one I'll just
mention because it is tied toHagar.
I think I put this in the book,but one of the things that's
neat that God always does is heuses His Word to meet us at
seasons, and part of why I liketeaching is God is always using
that in my life, and so actuallyso I did like a four-week class
on some of these characters inthe wilderness, probably a year
or two years ago, and the nightbefore I was supposed to teach
(25:28):
this lesson on Hagar, whichreally centered around God
knowing us and seeing us in ourpain.
So he knows us in our pain andhe hears our prayers.
The night before, so Saturdaynight, my son, who was two at
the time he has asthma.
He went into respiratorydistress and so we ended up
having to go.
We were at a hospital and thenhe had to be taken on a lifeline
(25:50):
ambulance to a kid's emergencyhospital, and my wife was able
to go in the ambulance and I'mnot able to go, so all I can do.
You know, as a dad, that's yourworst moment.
You see him strapped up to thisbed, he's struggling, he's
having a hard time breathing,and I'm just in the car behind
him and I was just so thankfulthat I had read and studied that
lesson.
(26:10):
I wasn't going to get to teachit that morning, but God had put
that scripture in my life tohelp me know, as I'm driving in
my car, god knows this and hesees me and he's caring for me
and just as he takes care ofHagar's son, he's going to take
care of my son, and so I wasjust thankful that God that's
(26:34):
what he does he gives us thescripture we need to help us
along.
So I was thankful for how heused that in my life to prove
like I not only see your pain, Iknow what you're going through
and I'm taking care of you, butI gave you this lesson because
you're going to need it.
So that was a couple of yearsago, tied to Hagar specifically.
But, even like yesterday, my momhas cancer.
She's been battling cancer forabout the last year and her body
(26:54):
has resisted it not going well.
So even yesterday she calledand she's at the point of
discussing, like do I want tokeep doing chemo it's kind of
destroying my body or is it thetime to just kind of stop and
let it run its course, whichprobably won't be much time.
So this has been a hard seasonfor me.
I lost my dad to cancer threeyears ago and I felt like I was
just starting to recover fromthat pain and loss of losing him
(27:18):
.
And then my mom got cancer ayear ago and we never know the
amount of time, but it doesn'tlook like she has a ton of time
left and so again that's beenreally hard for me, kind of
losing or looking forward tolosing both parents and the loss
for my kids of not havinggrandparents and all that's
wrapped up in that.
And yet in those hard situationsit's led to like what I can do
(27:40):
is pray.
I can take my pain to the Lordin prayer and cast my burdens on
him and trust that he will be afather to me, he will take care
of me, he'll take care of mykids.
I have the good news Both ofthem are believers, so I can
rejoice that their wilderness isover.
They're actually not in thewilderness anymore no more
trials and troubles and so I'mthankful for that.
(28:00):
But I've experienced just overthe last three years in that
personal struggle for me that'sbeen really hard losing them and
yet God has been with me and hehas taken care of me and he's
given me countless otherblessings, even though it's
still really hard.
Speaker 2 (28:14):
Yeah, I'm sorry for your loss and appreciate you
sharing that with us.
I think that's something a lotof people can relate to and feel
that kind of hole of losingyour parents and even the
uncertainty of cancer treatment.
So it's, it's tough.
So thank you for sharing thatwith us.
So you mentioned briefly Jesusin the wilderness, but I'd love
(28:40):
to press into his story a littlebit more.
Was there more that you canbring out about his wilderness
experience?
Maybe expound on what you saidearlier?
Speaker 1 (28:50):
Yeah, I think one.
It's always nice to know, likepart of why the life of Jesus is
so beautiful is because he waswilling to walk through the
things that we go through.
And so Jesus endured thewilderness, he endured suffering
, he endured temptation, heendured trials, and Hebrews
talks about him as thatsympathetic high priest.
And so part of that was toidentify with us in our
(29:12):
sufferings, and so we know againthat God does actually
understand that Jesus has walkedthrough that, and so I think
there's like an identificationwith us and our sufferings that
makes me just thankful for himand a willingness we always are
more willing to share withpeople who know our struggles or
have walked through somethingsimilar.
And Jesus has been in thewilderness, he's been tempted,
(29:34):
and so he knows what that's like.
So that's just makes methankful.
I think what I learned mostfrom it again is just seeing how
he responds in the wilderness.
So he's tempted, he's starving,he's probably prone to
discouragement and weariness,and yet the pattern is very
clear Each time he's tempted heresponds with scripture, and
(29:54):
again we know that yeah, whenI'm tempted, when I'm
discouraged, I should probablygo to the Bible.
But again, I think, in thewilderness, when you are
discouraged and weary or you'rewondering like why am I stuck
here?
Is life a waste?
Life just feels broken.
The response is going back toScripture to see okay, part of
why I want these stories isthese are windows of hope.
(30:14):
So what are those windows ofhope in scripture?
I need to remember so that Icling to those to say if God did
that in Hagar's life, well hecan do that in my life.
He's the same God.
But also to find promises tocling to.
So when I'm tempted to notbelieve God's word, in those
dark moments I say like no, thisfeels like it's not good for my
life.
Yet the Bible says all thingswork together for good because
(30:36):
you are at work in it.
So you battle these thoughtsand doubts that are kind of
rushing over you in thewilderness with truth, and so if
Jesus had to do that, he'sprobably doing it.
Because we need to do that, weneed scripture.
Again, it's not just survivinghard seasons.
It's not just like, okay, I'mgoing to grit my teeth, I'm
going to figure this out, butit's going back to the Bible,
(30:57):
meditating on who God is, howhe's equipping us and fighting
in that way.
Speaker 2 (31:03):
Yeah, those are good.
Those are good, good thoughts.
How can we support other peoplein their wilderness?
Because if we're not in oneright now, there's somebody
around us who is in a wildernessseason.
So what?
What can we do besides justtrying to fix people or make
ourselves feel more comfortable?
You know, how can we helpothers who are in pain and
(31:27):
suffering?
Speaker 1 (31:28):
Yeah, I think one thing is be willing to like
reach out.
We talked a little bit aboutyou know and I know for me and I
never liked to reach out toother people or bother them, and
especially when you'resuffering, you're probably not
likely to ask for help ormention like I do need
encouragement and you might evenbe struggling to pray on your
own or get into the Bible onyour own.
So I think if we can beintentional like if you just
(31:51):
notice a friend or someone atchurch and either you know what
they're going through or youjust notice they're struggling
that we take the initiative toask, hey, are going through, or
you just notice they'restruggling, that we take the
initiative to ask, hey, how canI pray for you or do you want to
grab coffee?
Or, as we're reading the Bibleand we find encouraging truths
and stories and promises that weshare those, we can text those
or just say, hey, I found thisthat was encouraging to me.
(32:11):
So I think, not waiting untilsomebody's at a complete
desperate state and reaches out,because that might not happen,
but just whoever's in our lifeor sphere of influence, to be
just an encouragement, sharingGod's words, his promises,
offering to pray.
I think that's part of what wedo is just pray with people, not
to solve it, but just take themto the Lord's presence.
(32:32):
We pray with them.
Sometimes it might help to giveperspective.
There's a time to just be quietand just be present and just to
sit and to grieve and to listen, and you got to be willing to
do that.
And then there might also be atime where, like if God opens
the door to give someperspective from his word, to
remind them, okay, this is whoGod is, remember, these are ways
he's worked.
(32:52):
So you never want to be likepreachy and teachy and like you
got to discern and ask for theSpirit's discernment, of like,
is this the time just to bequiet and listen and grieve, or
is there a moment where maybethey need some truth, because
there are seasons for both?
But yeah, you don't.
Your job is never to fixsomeone and so often you can't.
I think you experienced that.
I experienced that as a pastorthat I would love to just be
(33:14):
able to give people the truth orhelp them, or help them change
their mind and make the rightdecision.
But you can't fix them.
They ultimately have to wait onGod and God has to meet with
them and you just can be presentand you can pray and you can
point them to God.
Speaker 2 (33:30):
Yeah, yeah, that answer that you just gave is
very challenging and convictingto me, because it means I have
to get my head out of my ownlittle world, I have to look
around and care about people andnot just be concerned about
what I'm doing and what I'm busywith, but to actually care and
(33:53):
look and pay attention to otherpeople and their lives, and I
think that's something that somepeople like me, you know,
struggle with like I'm busy, I'mdoing stuff and and sometimes I
miss those opportunities.
So I think that was a reallygood reminder of like pay
attention, you see, people thatare struggling, take the
(34:14):
initiative, take the time andreach out to them.
I think that was so good andI'll add, yeah and we?
Speaker 1 (34:20):
I again, I'm an introvert out to them I think
that was so good.
And I'll add, yeah, and we?
I again I'm an introvert.
Sometimes I struggle to do thatbecause then I think, well, I
don't want to invade, I want todo too much, or maybe they'll
read into it.
And so we, as the personreaching out, we also have all
these thoughts because we'recomplex, messed up people, and
so sometimes we don't do that.
But we can never over andencourage people.
I've never wondered like Iwonder if they need a text of
(34:42):
encouragement, and done it andfound out, oh yeah, they just
had too much encouragement, theydidn't need it.
Everybody is in need of prayerand encouragement.
So if you're wondering like,should I do it, just do it.
Speaker 2 (34:52):
Yeah, that's such a good point.
I mean, this morning my sistertexted me this beautiful prayer
that she was praying for me andI almost cried.
I was like thank you.
I wasn't like now, why is shedoing that?
I was just like wow, that wasamazing.
So, yeah, that's a good point.
People need it.
Even if they're not asking forit, they need it and you can't
(35:15):
give them too much.
So, dustin, this has been agreat conversation and you can't
give them too much.
So, dustin, this has been agreat conversation.
Before we wrap up, what's thebest way for people to find you,
get in contact with you, findyour books?
Do you have a website or aplace we can direct people?
Speaker 1 (35:29):
I have a website called IndieCrow.
I-n-d-y for Indianapolis CrowC-R-O-W-E, so I'm on social
media with that same handle.
Indiecrow Books can be foundonline in most places.
So yeah, indiecrow.
Speaker 2 (35:41):
I'll have the links in the show notes, as usual, but
in closing would you speakdirectly to the listener who is
in the middle of a wildernessseason, who maybe feels like
they're in a time where theirlife is just either falling to
pieces or feeling really toohard to walk through, and
they're feeling that desperation?
(36:03):
Can you give them a word ofencouragement?
Speaker 1 (36:06):
Yeah, maybe one thing I know that's helped me in
those seasons I love the storywhere God does provide manna
each day, and so myencouragement would be to not
try to figure out, okay, how isthis going to end, is this going
to turn out better?
But all you do is say, okay,god, I need strength for today,
I need wisdom for today, I needhelp for today.
(36:27):
I don't know how I'm going tomake it through, whether it's
that next meeting or taking careof the kids or an aging parent,
whatever it is.
I don't know how I'm going toget through this and all we have
to do is ask the Lord okay, Idon't have to know, but you will
give me strength for today andthis trial and this season.
You know you give manna day byday.
Jesus says ask for your dailybread.
(36:49):
And I think in our wildernesswe want the end, we want to know
how it's going to work out, wewant the bow and to know, but
tell me where it's going.
And he just doesn't give usthat answer.
But he does say I am with you,I'm working.
So you can't yet tell how I'mworking, but I am working and
working this out for your good.
But ultimately I would justencourage, like, ask for
(37:10):
strength for today, and then youlive on that strength for today
.
Notice his blessings today,maybe, see how he's working
today, find one promise to clingto today, and then what I've
experienced in those hard daysis okay.
Those days pile up.
He gives you strength one day,and then another, and another,
and then you're out of awilderness and you look back and
then you see, oh, that's whathe was doing, that's what he was
(37:32):
doing in me and through me andfor me.
I couldn't see it in the moment, but he helped me every day,
day by day.
Speaker 2 (37:38):
I couldn't see it in the moment, but he helped me
every day, day by day, thank you, thank you so much for your
encouragement and the work thatyou're doing.
It was great having you today.
Speaker 1 (37:47):
Yeah, thanks for having me on.
Speaker 2 (37:52):
I enjoyed the conversation.
Thanks for hanging out with metoday on Beauty in the
Brokenness.
To find anything I mentioned onthe episode, go to
TeresaWhitingcom slash listen,which is where you can find all
the show notes.
I will have links to Dustin, tohis book and to all the ways
that you can get in contact withhim.
If you enjoyed today's episode,would you take just a minute
(38:12):
and share it with a friend?
You can hit that little sharebutton it's the square with the
arrow in it and just send it tosomeone who you think would be
encouraged.
Maybe someone you know iswalking through a wilderness
season right now and they coulduse this type of encouragement.
Thanks so much for sharing themessage of beauty in the
brokenness.
I appreciate you and your partin helping me spread the word
(38:37):
and I pray that you have eyes tosee the beautiful redemptive
work of Jesus in the midst ofyour broken life.
In closing, I want to leave youwith this prayer from Numbers 6
, 24 to 26.
The Lord bless you and keep you.
The Lord make his face shine onyou and be gracious to you.
(39:00):
The Lord turn his face towardyou and give you peace.
to not try to figure out okay, how is this going to
end?
Is this going to turn outbetter?
But all you do is say, okay,god, I need strength for today,
I need wisdom for today, I needhelp for today.
I don't know how I'm going tomake it through, whether it's
that next meeting, or takingcare of the kids, or an aging
parent, whatever it is, I don'tknow how I'm going to get
through this.
And all we have to do is askthe Lord okay, I don't have to
(00:28):
know, but you will give mestrength for today and this
trial and this season.
Speaker 2 (00:30):
Hi, friend, if you've ever wondered how God's word
connects with the messy, brokenparts of your story, you're in
the right place.
Welcome to Beauty in theBrokenness, where we have honest
conversations about the Bible,our real life struggles, where
we have honest conversationsabout the Bible, our real-life
struggles and the hope Godbrings for healing.
I'm your host, teresa Whiting,an author, bible teacher and
(00:51):
trauma-informed life coach, butmostly a friend and fellow
struggler.
No matter who you are or whereyou've been, I'm inviting you to
encounter the God of rescue,redemption and restoration, the
God who is still creating beautyright in the midst of your
brokenness.
Well, welcome, friends.
(01:14):
I'm excited to introduce you tomy new friend and my guest today
, dustin Crow.
Dustin is a discipleship pastorat Stones Crossing Church just
outside of Indianapolis, indiana.
He and his wife have two youngkids, and Dustin is the author
of several books, including yourWilderness is Not a Waste.
And so, dustin, I'm excited tohave you on the podcast today.
(01:37):
If you would just tell thelisteners a little bit more
about who you are and what youdo.
Speaker 1 (01:43):
Yeah, thanks for having me on Excited to be here.
So I'm a discipleship pastor.
That means I kind of overseeadult ministries like classes,
men's and women's ministries,small groups.
That's what I've done for thelast decade Occasionally preach
and whatever else they ask me todo at church.
Yeah, my family my wife and Ilive outside of Indianapolis two
little kids, eight and four, sowe stay pretty busy with them
(02:07):
and, yeah, that's about it rightnow.
Speaker 2 (02:10):
Great, great.
So you wrote this book.
Your Wilderness is Not a Waste.
God's Purpose in Suffering andStruggles and that's a topic I
love to talk about, and we'veactually been going through the
story of Hagar on the podcast,so this is kind of a perfect
conversation for us to have thatcomplements her story.
(02:31):
But why did you write this?
What inspired you to write thisand what are your hopes that
the readers will take away fromthis?
Speaker 1 (02:39):
Yeah, usually there are several things kind of
converging when you decide towrite a book.
But I think one of the mainthings I've experienced
personally, but especially as apastor, what I kind of felt this
common theme would come up inpeople where, when we go through
hard things and pain and justthose dark seasons of life, we
tend to believe I tend tobelieve the worst of God, that
(02:59):
this means that either he'sfailed me or abandoned me or
this period of my life is awaste and I just need to get
through this as quickly aspossible.
But the more I read and studyscripture, you see that's
clearly not true, that in thosehard seasons and dark seasons,
the wilderness seasons, thoseare often where God is doing the
most work in us.
(03:20):
Sometimes it's subtle,sometimes it's clear, but he
makes himself known.
And so I just wanted to be ableto help people, help myself,
kind of, have windows to see oh,like God can work, and God does
work in those hard, painfulwilderness seasons, especially
if we're paying attention, if welet him do that.
Speaker 2 (03:37):
What would you say a wilderness like?
How would you define awilderness season?
What does that mean?
Speaker 1 (03:43):
Yeah, so in the Bible I try to stick to like they're
actually in a physicalwilderness, but a few common
things you see in a wildernessseason.
I think this translates to kindof spiritual life.
Often it was a place of lack ofresources so you don't have the
things you think you need.
They didn't have food and waterin the wilderness Usually a
place of like danger, so there'sa threat.
(04:04):
But also the wilderness usuallya place of like danger, so
there's a threat.
But also the wilderness is kindof dual opportunity.
It can be a place that pushesyou to the brink and even
challenges your faith, or aplace where you see God show up.
So I think in our lives thatwilderness translates to kind of
lack of resources is one.
So maybe there's a lack ofanswers for health struggles, a
lack of finances, relationalemptiness, but there's also
(04:31):
those dangers and threats.
The reality is, when we aregoing through pain, that we feel
like our faith kind of is beingpressed and it can either lead
to growth or it can crush anddiscourage us.
So I think those trials,temptations, troubles are how I
define wilderness seasons.
Speaker 2 (04:44):
Yeah, that's just the common experience of life.
Speaker 1 (04:48):
Yeah, and they can be small or big, I think sometimes
we think, well, suffering isonly those worst case scenarios.
But I really think in the Bibleand in our lives, you know, we
experience suffering indifferent degrees.
But there is ordinary suffering.
That's very hard, you know,seasons of waiting.
Sometimes it's hard to describeto people like why this is so
painful to me or why this feelsso hard, or discouraging,
(05:09):
because it's not like the bigkind of suffering and yet that's
real suffering.
Speaker 2 (05:15):
Yeah, I appreciate you acknowledging that, because
I think there's people who feelmaybe we compare our suffering.
Oh, I'm not going through whatthat person's going through, so
I shouldn't be complaining.
And it doesn't mean it's notpainful, so I'm glad you brought
that out In your book.
you talk about all thesedifferent biblical characters
and their different wildernessexperiences.
(05:38):
I'm curious.
Well, I'd love for you to talkabout who are these characters
and maybe just give us a littletaste of like what each of their
stories is.
But then also, did you see anycommon themes, Like what were
the common things that youpulled out among these
characters and what emerged fromtheir wilderness seasons?
Speaker 1 (06:01):
Yeah Well, I'll say, when I first started like
reading on the topic andteaching on it, I thought it
would be more of like thewilderness generation.
Yeah Well, I'll say, when Ifirst started like reading on
the topic and teaching on it, Ithought it would be more of like
the wilderness generation inIsrael, and that's a part of the
book.
But then I did start to findall these characters and it felt
like their stories were socompelling and unique.
And so I go through Hagar andmaybe I'll save that.
We'll talk more about her,since you mentioned Hagar.
(06:22):
But we talk about Moses, andMoses in particular his 40 years
.
So he has this kind of climbwhere it looks like his life
will be great.
He's in Pharaoh's house, hegrows up there and then after he
kills someone, he has to run,and so there's this 40-year
period before God calls him tofree his people, where it feels
kind of like his life has passedhim by and he's wasting.
(06:44):
And I think the story of Mosesresonates with our.
Sometimes it feels like lifehas passed me by or I'm not
doing the things I thought I'dbe doing at this age, and so
Moses' story really speaks tothat.
Talk about David and David's inthe wilderness a lot in his
life.
He spends probably 15 to 20years of his life in the
wilderness, a couple ofdifferent times.
(07:06):
And yet what's unique aboutDavid is we also have his Psalms
, so we not only have, like, thenarrative of him being in the
wilderness, but we get his likejournal to talk about how God is
at work.
So you know, david is willingto lament the pain in the
wilderness but he also rejoicesand gives thanks and talks about
how he experiences God asrefuge.
So David is a great example.
(07:27):
I go to Elijah.
Elijah goes in the wilderness.
Kind of his is different.
It's really like despair.
When Elijah enters thewilderness he's like I'm done,
god, I'm tired of this, I havenothing left, take me.
And so his is like kind ofcomplete despair from that point
.
And then you have to go to Jesus.
If you're going to talk aboutcharacters in the Bible, you
(07:47):
should go with Jesus, and so Italked a little bit about Jesus
going into the wildernesshimself.
So how does he fight temptation?
But ultimately, as we start totrace this theme of wilderness
from the Bible's beginning toend, I think Jesus is the answer
.
Because when Jesus defeats sin,jesus gives us this promise
that one day in the future thewilderness will be completely
(08:08):
gone when he returns, and so hegives us that hope that, no
matter how bad this life is, wehave this promise one day the
wilderness will end.
Even if our trials here don't,there will be a day where the
wilderness goes away and we havethese oasis of water, and so I
think Jesus is important forthat as well.
Speaker 2 (08:30):
I love that when you were talking about Moses and you
were saying you know, he feltlike he's wasting away, he's
wasting his years.
I was just journaling the otherday, like this feeling of like
I'm too late, I'm too late, I'mtoo old, like well, I should
have done this whatever yearsago, and really just wrestling
(08:52):
with that idea of like I and Idon't really, I came at the end
of my journal entry.
I'm like no, I think I'm, I'mwhere I'm supposed to be and and
right on time.
Like God is not, like well, youshould.
If you had started this 20years ago like so-and-so did, I
kind of came around to say no,I've lived the life that God has
(09:14):
given me and maybe I'm right ontime.
But it was a roundabout journalentry kind of long and
wandering.
But I do think that that comesto us often of like, what am I
doing?
I'm wasting time, I should havebeen doing this or I should be
at this place in my life and I'mnot, so that really resonated
(09:37):
with me.
And then you were talking aboutElijah and the despair that
drove him there and Jesus, andI'm like it's cool because all
these different stories bringout different facets of a
wilderness experience, but it'salmost like, but I can relate to
that one in this way and I canrelate to that one in this way,
and so I love how God, you know,in the scriptures, he brings
(10:00):
out characters that we allrelate to.
We're like, yes, brings outcharacters that we all relate to
.
We're like, yes, that's mystory too.
So I appreciate that.
And I wanted to ask you becausea lot of times we have these
predictable ways that we respondto hardship, respond to
wilderness.
What do you see your work as apastor and just your
(10:22):
interactions with people?
What do you feel like arecommon responses to the
wilderness and or is it uniqueto every person, or are there
things that are like this is apretty common wilderness
response.
Speaker 1 (10:35):
Yeah, I think there's always some commonalities, but
each person is a little unique,like I think.
For me, I've noticed, and maybeyou know, as I get older, um,
but I go pretty quickly todiscouragement, maybe even
despair, where it's like, okay,if I can't change this, I can't
figure it out.
Um, it's less like anxiety.
I have other people in my lifewho maybe their response is
(10:57):
anxiousness I want to work totry to control this, um or maybe
anger I got to fix this.
I think those are commonresponses For me.
It's more like I almost feellike stuck, defeated, like I
don't know what to do, and thenI just feel overwhelmingly
discouraged.
So I think some people kind ofyou freeze, you get discouraged,
whereas other people, like Isaid, they come into like fix it
(11:18):
mode and either there's this,the symptoms of anxiety and
anger and worry, but really it'sI want to control this, I want
to fix this, how do I get myselfout, how do I make this better?
And then I think there areothers who do more of the.
I'm going to run the oppositeway.
I don't like the wilderness andagain, I think you see this in
Israel I don't like being here,this cannot be for good, and so
(11:39):
I'm going to resist this, and Ithink that's where you get more
of the questioning questioningGod's character, questioning
this season and just I got toget out of here and I'm going to
go backwards.
So I think those are somecommon experiences.
Speaker 2 (11:53):
Yeah, I'm trying to think.
I think my experience, like myMO, is, I'm going to, I'm going
to just make more lists and domore things, like if I can keep
myself busy enough and I'llstart feeling better because I'm
checking all these boxes off.
I think that's probably my wayof dealing with those feelings,
(12:17):
when you feel out of control andfeeling lack and feeling and
it's control, right, it's likeif I'm doing things, then I feel
like I'm in control of thesituation.
Yeah, yeah, I think it's andit's control, right.
It's like if I'm doing things,then I feel like I'm in control
of the situation.
Speaker 1 (12:27):
Yeah, yeah, I think, tied to waiting, one of the
things in the wilderness you dosee a lot, no matter what is
waiting is that element, and sothat's one of the hardest thing
to do is to wait, because it isout of our control.
And so, yeah, I think some ofus okay, what can I do?
And there can be a good elementto that, because we do have, we
should be doing things.
But that can become well, Ijust had to keep busy or I got
(12:47):
to do all the things as aresponse to this.
Waiting is so hard, I can't, Ican't be still and know I need
to do so.
I think that's probably acommon response as well.
Speaker 2 (12:58):
Okay.
So then what's a healthyresponse?
What would you say is here's abetter way to walk through your
wilderness season.
Speaker 1 (13:07):
I think there are a lot.
I think part of that islearning If waiting is essential
and, again, waiting is so hard.
Part of that is saying okay, Itrust the Lord, so you have to
know His promises.
I think it begins with do Iknow the Lord's character and
His promises?
Because he does promise that heis with me and he is at work in
all things to work thistogether for my good.
So he's not distant, he's notabsent, he's not punishing me.
(13:30):
And when I know his character,I know his promises, that allows
me to kind of pump the brakesand say I do need to wait on him
.
I know in my life, whenever Itry to get ahead of him or I try
to fix this or open doors,that's never gone well.
And so learning to say, okay,god, your plan is probably
better than mine, even thoughit's really hard for me to wait
on that.
So I'm going to do what yourword says of pausing and waiting
(13:53):
on you, and that's not justwaiting for things to change,
but literally waiting on God,waiting on him to work.
So you're praying to him,asking him to change things,
waiting on him in the sense oflike trusting him, choosing to
say I don't see what you'redoing.
I don't like this, but I trustyou Also, I think, choosing to
see the good, that in every hardday, every hard season, you
(14:16):
know there's this weirdcombination of the brokenness
but also beauty, that there'sordinary blessings, and I think
we can't see those as well whenlife is hard.
But the more you see those, themore you give thanks for those
things.
It helps you in the waiting toknow, like, okay, there are good
things as well.
I got to cling to those.
So I think, prayer, going toscripture, knowing those
(14:37):
promises and then seeing who Godis.
So we wait on him and trust inhim and then even ask okay, what
are you doing?
I think one thing that's beenhelpful for me in the last
couple of years in wildernessseasons is learning to say OK,
I'm struggling because Isometimes think you're not doing
anything or I don't like whatyou're doing, and so I've had to
change the question to ask OK,you are always doing something
(15:00):
good, help me see what you aredoing.
So it's not necessarily myagenda, but you have an agenda.
I want to see that and knowthat and be patient enough to
wait for that.
So show me what you are doing,help me see it and that helps me
trust in the waiting.
Speaker 2 (15:17):
Yes, okay, a couple of things about your answer.
First of all, I love how youbrought out the beauty in the
brokenness, because, okay, sowhen I first invited you onto
this podcast, it was called FindHope here, but it's now called
Beauty and the Brokenness Idon't know if you're aware of
that, but that is the name ofthis podcast, so that message is
so.
It's like that's my heart.
(15:37):
But also I like what you saidabout asking questions.
In a season of trial ordifficulty, we're making demands
or we're talking a lot andwe're not asking a lot of
questions.
Like God, how can you use this?
Or what am I to be learning?
(15:58):
Or how can I, instead of justquick, like get me out of here,
I'm done Like, wait, pause,what's happening inside of me?
Why am I responding this way?
What's coming up in me?
I think that learning to askourselves questions is such a
healthy thing, but it's not ourusual MO, it's not mine anyway.
(16:19):
But I'm starting to learn topause and ask myself why am I
having this kind of response tothis situation?
What's going on inside of me?
That's saying get me out ofhere right now?
One of the things you talkabout is that the wilderness is
not a waste.
There's purpose, and you talkeda little bit about that just
(16:41):
now the beauty that you can find.
Do you have other ways thatpeople can really begin to dig
into that, to find the purposein this painful season?
Are there other I don't knowstrategies or prayers or
anything that you can think ofthat would say this is, this is
how you can go through thisseason and come out on the other
(17:03):
end and say, oh, that wasn't awaste, that was worthwhile.
Speaker 1 (17:07):
Yeah, and I think you're right.
I think question asking is a bigpart of that.
So even in the book at the endI try to give reflective
questions because I thinkanytime we're going to grow, and
especially grow through thewilderness, it does require
pausing and reflecting, andwe're probably not great at that
as a culture, and especially inpain you don't really feel like
doing like self-reflection.
But I think if you can't askthat, I know for me again, in
(17:34):
any trial, part of what happensis that God is revealing things
in me, and sometimes that isrevealing like the areas where
I'm struggling to trust him orwhere I'm being too self-reliant
.
And so I think, if we ask thosequestions, okay, god, no matter
what, why I'm in thiswilderness you want to do
something good, not just for mebut in me.
You're wanting to shape me andchange me, but for that to
happen, I have to kind of see itand recognize.
(17:55):
So asking the question how areyou trying to change me and
shape me?
And what's the good thing youwant to do in my faith while I'm
here?
Because, like you said, I thinkpart of how we grow through the
wilderness, instead of wastingit, is allowing God to use it.
And again, as a pastor, I doexperience a lot of people who
don't necessarily grow throughthe wilderness, because they
(18:16):
kind of just put their head downand say this can't be good, god
can't use this and I'm justgoing to get through it.
And there isn't always a lot ofgrowth and they kind of have to
go through it again and againbecause God's trying to teach
them things.
Sometimes he's trying to teachthem more of who he is, that he
will be the one that providesfor them, or he's revealing
Himself to them in thewilderness, and sometimes it is
to change us, to help us see,okay, these are some things that
(18:39):
you need to grow while you'rehere, but you have to be willing
to ask it, see it and then kindof submit it to God.
So I do think self-reflectionof asking good questions what is
God doing?
What's he trying to do in me?
How is God showing up?
One of the things you see inevery wilderness situation is,
typically God allows it to getpretty dark, because then we are
(18:59):
stripped of hope and strippedof resources.
We can't rely upon anyone else,and that tends to be the moment
God shows up.
And so that's the question Okay, how can God show up and how is
he showing up?
We have to ask that questionand then maybe ask others.
I think there's some of us andsome personalities that have a
really hard time.
If they do self-reflection.
It tends toward guilt and likeover-analyzation, and we need
(19:22):
other people to help us see,like could you help me see what
God's been doing in my life,help me see the good of God in
the world, and so we kind ofneed community to help with that
side of things.
Those are a couple of ways Ithink we don't waste the
wilderness.
Speaker 2 (19:40):
I love that.
I love that you're talkingabout community because you're
right.
I think we can isolate and belike I'm not going to talk about
this, I'm not going to sharethis, I'm not going to burden
somebody else with my problems,but then we're robbing other
people of the blessing ofspeaking into our life.
We're robbing ourselves of theblessing of hearing from them.
So I love that.
That thought about you knowcommunity and those were, those
(20:00):
were a lot of really goodsuggestions.
Speaker 1 (20:03):
So I appreciate that and I was going to say Elijah,
like he's one of the examples,like when he goes into the
wilderness he starts he'straveling with an assistant and
then he leaves them and he goesinto the wilderness all by
himself and it does feel likethere's a.
The narrative is written toshow like that's not a wise
thing, because he is isolated.
That probably leads to some ofhis despair, whereas if he had
(20:26):
his friend with him, that friendcould have spoken some truth to
him.
And again it makes sense where,when we're in a trial or when
things are dark, we don't wantto burden people or we don't
even know how to express whatwe're feeling and going through.
And are they going tounderstand?
Am I going to, you know?
Look like I'm making a big dealout of a small thing.
And so we start to isolate moreand more and then we start
(20:47):
believing lies about ourselvesand we don't have people to
speak truth, to counter thoselies, and that's where it just
becomes a really, really darkand dangerous place.
Speaker 2 (20:56):
And doesn't God tell him to come out of the
wilderness and go find Elisha,isn't?
Speaker 1 (21:01):
that when he's like hey go get this buddy.
Yeah, you need that yeah.
Speaker 2 (21:06):
Yeah, Okay.
So we've got to get to Hagar,because that's kind of what
we've been talking about on thepodcast is Hagar's story, and
when I saw the title of yourbook I was like, oh, this is
perfect to talk about, becauseshe obviously finds herself in
the wilderness not just once,but twice, you know, the first
(21:26):
time when she runs away, thesecond time when she's banished.
So I'd love to hear yourperspective.
You know I've talked about it.
We've had some women on thepodcast to talk about it, but
let's hear your perspective on.
You know what God was doingthrough Hagar and in Hagar, in
her wilderness.
Speaker 1 (21:45):
Okay, I could probably talk about this for a
long time.
I really liked her story and somy book starts with it because
I think it is one of the mostpowerful stories.
She is there twice.
She's the first person inscripture to name God, so when
she's in the wilderness shenames you are God who sees.
That seems like a pretty bigdeal when you're a person who
gets to name God, and so hertime in the wilderness is
(22:07):
somewhat unique.
I think her story really speaksto again a lot of what we
experience.
Her situation was she wasneglected.
Obviously she was like thesecond woman in Abraham's life,
and so there's this sense ofbeing overlooked, being abused.
Her life was just hard in somany ways, and so when we read
it, it makes sense to us likewhy she felt the need to run.
(22:30):
She was in a place of pain,place of rejection, like there's
almost nothing good in her life, and she runs, and yet what's
beautiful about the story isshe's given up.
She's kind of there in despair.
Where do I go?
Like I have no home, I have nopeople, I have no family, and
yet God shows up and God seesher, and I like it because she
(22:51):
names like God sees me.
But then she says I have seenyou.
And so she has this play onwords where God now I learn God
sees me, but now I know him, Isee him and I hear him.
So it's a beautiful thing.
I mean, I imagine she probablyhad heard a little bit about
this God from Abraham and Sarah,but now in the wilderness he
reveals himself, he shows up, heprovides.
(23:14):
It's just a beautiful pictureof almost God being a husband to
her, of taking care of her andloving her and meeting her in
her brokenness and her need andtaking care of her.
And then it happens again Partof why I like her story and
David of her.
And then it happens again, partof why like her story and David,
they both have two verydistinct wilderness seasons and
I think sometimes we can believelike we go through something
(23:35):
really hard and we think, okay,it's done, I've done my
wilderness season, I'm good, andthat's just not how life is
with a Christian life.
We will go through manywilderness seasons.
And so she has the second time.
It's very similar, but now shehas a son and I just can't
imagine how painful that is andshe has no way of providing for
her son caring for him.
(23:55):
They're just stuck and again,god sees her, sees the situation
, proves his love, provides thewater they need, and so it's a
reminder that God has alreadyplanned.
He leads her to this well shedoesn't know about.
He's provided the water, and soI think, in the wilderness,
it's a reminder, like, whateverthat provision you need, whether
it's a person or strength orsomething else, god has already
(24:18):
put it there.
You don't know it yet, but hehas it wherever.
He's guiding you and he's goingto meet you there and he's
actually.
He sees you, he knows you, hehears you and he wants to make
himself known to you.
So I love the story.
It's a great story.
Speaker 2 (24:31):
Yes, yes, I think she's.
I always say, oh, I think she'sone of my favorites, but I have
a lot of favorites Her story isso good, every character and
every book becomes the newfavorite.
Speaker 1 (24:42):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (24:43):
Yes, I'd love to hear if you're willing to share some
of your own wilderness seasonsthat you've walked through and
how you've seen God work in yourlife.
We've talked about some of thescriptural examples, but can you
give us an example from yourlife of maybe a wilderness
season that you walked throughand what God taught you?
Speaker 1 (25:05):
I could share a couple, and one I'll just
mention because it is tied toHagar.
I think I put this in the book,but one of the things that's
neat that God always does is heuses His Word to meet us at
seasons, and part of why I liketeaching is God is always using
that in my life, and so actuallyso I did like a four-week class
on some of these characters inthe wilderness, probably a year
or two years ago, and the nightbefore I was supposed to teach
(25:28):
this lesson on Hagar, whichreally centered around God
knowing us and seeing us in ourpain.
So he knows us in our pain andhe hears our prayers.
The night before, so Saturdaynight, my son, who was two at
the time he has asthma.
He went into respiratorydistress and so we ended up
having to go.
We were at a hospital and thenhe had to be taken on a lifeline
(25:50):
ambulance to a kid's emergencyhospital, and my wife was able
to go in the ambulance and I'mnot able to go, so all I can do.
You know, as a dad, that's yourworst moment.
You see him strapped up to thisbed, he's struggling, he's
having a hard time breathing,and I'm just in the car behind
him and I was just so thankfulthat I had read and studied that
lesson.
(26:10):
I wasn't going to get to teachit that morning, but God had put
that scripture in my life tohelp me know, as I'm driving in
my car, god knows this and hesees me and he's caring for me
and just as he takes care ofHagar's son, he's going to take
care of my son, and so I wasjust thankful that God that's
(26:34):
what he does he gives us thescripture we need to help us
along.
So I was thankful for how heused that in my life to prove
like I not only see your pain, Iknow what you're going through
and I'm taking care of you, butI gave you this lesson because
you're going to need it.
So that was a couple of yearsago, tied to Hagar specifically.
But, even like yesterday, my momhas cancer.
She's been battling cancer forabout the last year and her body
(26:54):
has resisted it not going well.
So even yesterday she calledand she's at the point of
discussing, like do I want tokeep doing chemo it's kind of
destroying my body or is it thetime to just kind of stop and
let it run its course, whichprobably won't be much time.
So this has been a hard seasonfor me.
I lost my dad to cancer threeyears ago and I felt like I was
just starting to recover fromthat pain and loss of losing him
(27:18):
.
And then my mom got cancer ayear ago and we never know the
amount of time, but it doesn'tlook like she has a ton of time
left and so again that's beenreally hard for me, kind of
losing or looking forward tolosing both parents and the loss
for my kids of not havinggrandparents and all that's
wrapped up in that.
And yet in those hard situationsit's led to like what I can do
(27:40):
is pray.
I can take my pain to the Lordin prayer and cast my burdens on
him and trust that he will be afather to me, he will take care
of me, he'll take care of mykids.
I have the good news Both ofthem are believers, so I can
rejoice that their wilderness isover.
They're actually not in thewilderness anymore no more
trials and troubles and so I'mthankful for that.
(28:00):
But I've experienced just overthe last three years in that
personal struggle for me that'sbeen really hard losing them and
yet God has been with me and hehas taken care of me and he's
given me countless otherblessings, even though it's
still really hard.
Speaker 2 (28:14):
Yeah, I'm sorry for your loss and appreciate you
sharing that with us.
I think that's something a lotof people can relate to and feel
that kind of hole of losingyour parents and even the
uncertainty of cancer treatment.
So it's, it's tough.
So thank you for sharing thatwith us.
So you mentioned briefly Jesusin the wilderness, but I'd love
(28:40):
to press into his story a littlebit more.
Was there more that you canbring out about his wilderness
experience?
Maybe expound on what you saidearlier?
Speaker 1 (28:50):
Yeah, I think one.
It's always nice to know, likepart of why the life of Jesus is
so beautiful is because he waswilling to walk through the
things that we go through.
And so Jesus endured thewilderness, he endured suffering
, he endured temptation, heendured trials, and Hebrews
talks about him as thatsympathetic high priest.
And so part of that was toidentify with us in our
(29:12):
sufferings, and so we know againthat God does actually
understand that Jesus has walkedthrough that, and so I think
there's like an identificationwith us and our sufferings that
makes me just thankful for himand a willingness we always are
more willing to share withpeople who know our struggles or
have walked through somethingsimilar.
And Jesus has been in thewilderness, he's been tempted,
(29:34):
and so he knows what that's like.
So that's just makes methankful.
I think what I learned mostfrom it again is just seeing how
he responds in the wilderness.
So he's tempted, he's starving,he's probably prone to
discouragement and weariness,and yet the pattern is very
clear Each time he's tempted heresponds with scripture, and
(29:54):
again we know that yeah, whenI'm tempted, when I'm
discouraged, I should probablygo to the Bible.
But again, I think, in thewilderness, when you are
discouraged and weary or you'rewondering like why am I stuck
here?
Is life a waste?
Life just feels broken.
The response is going back toScripture to see okay, part of
why I want these stories isthese are windows of hope.
(30:14):
So what are those windows ofhope in scripture?
I need to remember so that Icling to those to say if God did
that in Hagar's life, well hecan do that in my life.
He's the same God.
But also to find promises tocling to.
So when I'm tempted to notbelieve God's word, in those
dark moments I say like no, thisfeels like it's not good for my
life.
Yet the Bible says all thingswork together for good because
(30:36):
you are at work in it.
So you battle these thoughtsand doubts that are kind of
rushing over you in thewilderness with truth, and so if
Jesus had to do that, he'sprobably doing it.
Because we need to do that, weneed scripture.
Again, it's not just survivinghard seasons.
It's not just like, okay, I'mgoing to grit my teeth, I'm
going to figure this out, butit's going back to the Bible,
(30:57):
meditating on who God is, howhe's equipping us and fighting
in that way.
Speaker 2 (31:03):
Yeah, those are good.
Those are good, good thoughts.
How can we support other peoplein their wilderness?
Because if we're not in oneright now, there's somebody
around us who is in a wildernessseason.
So what?
What can we do besides justtrying to fix people or make
ourselves feel more comfortable?
You know, how can we helpothers who are in pain and
(31:27):
suffering?
Speaker 1 (31:28):
Yeah, I think one thing is be willing to like
reach out.
We talked a little bit aboutyou know and I know for me and I
never liked to reach out toother people or bother them, and
especially when you'resuffering, you're probably not
likely to ask for help ormention like I do need
encouragement and you might evenbe struggling to pray on your
own or get into the Bible onyour own.
So I think if we can beintentional like if you just
(31:51):
notice a friend or someone atchurch and either you know what
they're going through or youjust notice they're struggling
that we take the initiative toask, hey, are going through, or
you just notice they'restruggling, that we take the
initiative to ask, hey, how canI pray for you or do you want to
grab coffee?
Or, as we're reading the Bibleand we find encouraging truths
and stories and promises that weshare those, we can text those
or just say, hey, I found thisthat was encouraging to me.
(32:11):
So I think, not waiting untilsomebody's at a complete
desperate state and reaches out,because that might not happen,
but just whoever's in our lifeor sphere of influence, to be
just an encouragement, sharingGod's words, his promises,
offering to pray.
I think that's part of what wedo is just pray with people, not
to solve it, but just take themto the Lord's presence.
(32:32):
We pray with them.
Sometimes it might help to giveperspective.
There's a time to just be quietand just be present and just to
sit and to grieve and to listen, and you got to be willing to
do that.
And then there might also be atime where, like if God opens
the door to give someperspective from his word, to
remind them, okay, this is whoGod is, remember, these are ways
he's worked.
(32:52):
So you never want to be likepreachy and teachy and like you
got to discern and ask for theSpirit's discernment, of like,
is this the time just to bequiet and listen and grieve, or
is there a moment where maybethey need some truth, because
there are seasons for both?
But yeah, you don't.
Your job is never to fixsomeone and so often you can't.
I think you experienced that.
I experienced that as a pastorthat I would love to just be
(33:14):
able to give people the truth orhelp them, or help them change
their mind and make the rightdecision.
But you can't fix them.
They ultimately have to wait onGod and God has to meet with
them and you just can be presentand you can pray and you can
point them to God.
Speaker 2 (33:30):
Yeah, yeah, that answer that you just gave is
very challenging and convictingto me, because it means I have
to get my head out of my ownlittle world, I have to look
around and care about people andnot just be concerned about
what I'm doing and what I'm busywith, but to actually care and
(33:53):
look and pay attention to otherpeople and their lives, and I
think that's something that somepeople like me, you know,
struggle with like I'm busy, I'mdoing stuff and and sometimes I
miss those opportunities.
So I think that was a reallygood reminder of like pay
attention, you see, people thatare struggling, take the
(34:14):
initiative, take the time andreach out to them.
I think that was so good andI'll add, yeah and we?
Speaker 1 (34:20):
I again, I'm an introvert out to them I think
that was so good.
And I'll add, yeah, and we?
I again I'm an introvert.
Sometimes I struggle to do thatbecause then I think, well, I
don't want to invade, I want todo too much, or maybe they'll
read into it.
And so we, as the personreaching out, we also have all
these thoughts because we'recomplex, messed up people, and
so sometimes we don't do that.
But we can never over andencourage people.
I've never wondered like Iwonder if they need a text of
(34:42):
encouragement, and done it andfound out, oh yeah, they just
had too much encouragement, theydidn't need it.
Everybody is in need of prayerand encouragement.
So if you're wondering like,should I do it, just do it.
Speaker 2 (34:52):
Yeah, that's such a good point.
I mean, this morning my sistertexted me this beautiful prayer
that she was praying for me andI almost cried.
I was like thank you.
I wasn't like now, why is shedoing that?
I was just like wow, that wasamazing.
So, yeah, that's a good point.
People need it.
Even if they're not asking forit, they need it and you can't
(35:15):
give them too much.
So, dustin, this has been agreat conversation and you can't
give them too much.
So, dustin, this has been agreat conversation.
Before we wrap up, what's thebest way for people to find you,
get in contact with you, findyour books?
Do you have a website or aplace we can direct people?
Speaker 1 (35:29):
I have a website called IndieCrow.
I-n-d-y for Indianapolis CrowC-R-O-W-E, so I'm on social
media with that same handle.
Indiecrow Books can be foundonline in most places.
So yeah, indiecrow.
Speaker 2 (35:41):
I'll have the links in the show notes, as usual, but
in closing would you speakdirectly to the listener who is
in the middle of a wildernessseason, who maybe feels like
they're in a time where theirlife is just either falling to
pieces or feeling really toohard to walk through, and
they're feeling that desperation?
(36:03):
Can you give them a word ofencouragement?
Speaker 1 (36:06):
Yeah, maybe one thing I know that's helped me in
those seasons I love the storywhere God does provide manna
each day, and so myencouragement would be to not
try to figure out, okay, how isthis going to end, is this going
to turn out better?
But all you do is say, okay,god, I need strength for today,
I need wisdom for today, I needhelp for today.
(36:27):
I don't know how I'm going tomake it through, whether it's
that next meeting or taking careof the kids or an aging parent,
whatever it is.
I don't know how I'm going toget through this and all we have
to do is ask the Lord okay, Idon't have to know, but you will
give me strength for today andthis trial and this season.
You know you give manna day byday.
Jesus says ask for your dailybread.
(36:49):
And I think in our wildernesswe want the end, we want to know
how it's going to work out, wewant the bow and to know, but
tell me where it's going.
And he just doesn't give usthat answer.
But he does say I am with you,I'm working.
So you can't yet tell how I'mworking, but I am working and
working this out for your good.
But ultimately I would justencourage, like, ask for
(37:10):
strength for today, and then youlive on that strength for today
.
Notice his blessings today,maybe, see how he's working
today, find one promise to clingto today, and then what I've
experienced in those hard daysis okay.
Those days pile up.
He gives you strength one day,and then another, and another,
and then you're out of awilderness and you look back and
then you see, oh, that's whathe was doing, that's what he was
(37:32):
doing in me and through me andfor me.
I couldn't see it in the moment, but he helped me every day,
day by day.
Speaker 2 (37:38):
I couldn't see it in the moment, but he helped me
every day, day by day, thank you, thank you so much for your
encouragement and the work thatyou're doing.
It was great having you today.
Speaker 1 (37:47):
Yeah, thanks for having me on.
Speaker 2 (37:52):
I enjoyed the conversation.
Thanks for hanging out with metoday on Beauty in the
Brokenness.
To find anything I mentioned onthe episode, go to
TeresaWhitingcom slash listen,which is where you can find all
the show notes.
I will have links to Dustin, tohis book and to all the ways
that you can get in contact withhim.
If you enjoyed today's episode,would you take just a minute
(38:12):
and share it with a friend?
You can hit that little sharebutton it's the square with the
arrow in it and just send it tosomeone who you think would be
encouraged.
Maybe someone you know iswalking through a wilderness
season right now and they coulduse this type of encouragement.
Thanks so much for sharing themessage of beauty in the
brokenness.
I appreciate you and your partin helping me spread the word
(38:37):
and I pray that you have eyes tosee the beautiful redemptive
work of Jesus in the midst ofyour broken life.
In closing, I want to leave youwith this prayer from Numbers 6
, 24 to 26.
The Lord bless you and keep you.
The Lord make his face shine onyou and be gracious to you.
(39:00):
The Lord turn his face towardyou and give you peace.
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