October 15, 2024 • 47 mins
Neil is a passionate storyteller, a skilled documentary filmmaker turned fiction writer. His travels have taken him from historic libraries in New York to the ancient ruins of the Middle East. Neil's interest in classic films and history books led him to backpack across Egypt and Israel, blending his love for storytelling with travel. He shares the key moments and cultural experiences that have enriched his life and career, emphasizing the exceptional openness and generosity he encountered along the way.
Neil Laird is an LGBTQIA+, multiple Emmy-nominated director of historical films for Discovery, BBC, PBS, History Channel, National Geographic, and many other networks. He has produced over 100 programs around the globe that feature crumbling Egyptian tombs, lost Mayan cities, and mysterious shipwrecks at the bottom of the sea.
Neil talks about the incredible kindness of strangers he met while travelling. He met a Syrian family who gave up their only goat to honour him as a guest. These heartwarming stories challenge common fears and misconceptions, showing empathy that goes beyond cultural differences. Neil also shares a significant moment in his career while filming a restoration project at the Great Sphinx. This experience has influenced his perspective and inspired his transition from documentary filmmaking to fiction writing.
Neil shares his journey of changing careers from a freelance producer to an executive role at the BBC, and then returning to writing. He openly talks about the challenges faced by the television industry and the freedom that comes with pursuing passion projects.
To Connect with Neil: https://www.neillaird.com/
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Thank you for listening - Hasta Pronto!
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Daniela SM (00:04):
Hi, I'm Daniela.
Welcome to my podcast.
Because Everyone has a Story,the place to give ordinary
people's stories the chance tobe shared and preserved.
Our stories become the languageof connections.
Let's enjoy it.
Connect and relate, becauseeveryone has a story.
Relate because everyone has astory.
(00:34):
Welcome.
My guest is Neil Laird.
He is an LGBTQIA pluspassionate storyteller and Emmy
nominated filmmaker turnedfiction writer.
His work has taken him fromhistoric libraries in New York
to ancient ruins in the MiddleEast, producing over a hundred
programs for networks like BBC,discovery Channel and National
Geographic.
(00:54):
While traveling, neilexperienced the kindness of
strangers, including a Syrianfamily who gave up their only
goat to honour him.
These moments, along with thekey projects of the Great Sphinx
, inspire his shift fromdocumentary to fiction writing.
He also shares insights fromhis career personal stories
(01:19):
moving from freelance producerto a BBC executive before
returning to his writing roots.
I was captivated by Neil's lifestory.
His charm, kindness andopen-mindedness are truly
fascinating.
I hope you find his story asenchanting as I did.
Let's enjoy it.
Welcome, neil, to the show.
Neil Laird (01:41):
Thank you for having me.
It's fun.
Daniela SM (01:43):
Yes, and I am super excited that I met you not long
ago and this beautiful smile ofyours and this energy, that I'm
super, super excited that you'rehere to share your story.
So why do you want to shareyour story?
Neil Laird (01:57):
Well, first of all you reached out for me and thank
you.
You must have saw something inmy profile on Podmatch that
pricked up your ears and it'swonderful to kind of find
somebody who recognizes thatenthusiasm.
And I think my story I can'tsay it's unique, but I certainly
would say it's my own and I'velived it fully is my absolute
love of travel and myfascination particularly with
(02:17):
the ancient world and trying tounderstand how earlier cultures
did what they did and how theydid it so beautifully,
particularly Egypt and Rome.
I've always been enamored ofthose early civilizations, so
much so that I've spent the last25 years as a documentary
filmmaker going to these places,making films for National
Geographic and BBC and PBS, andit's really been sort of my
(02:38):
passion that's driven my life.
And then recently I've moved onto writing novels based on my
travels, but I'm allowing to getinto fiction and time travel
and kind of play with theconfines of the real and the
unreal, something I couldn't doas a documentary filmmaker for
the last quarter century.
All that, throw that in theblender and you can pick that
apart as you like.
Daniela SM (02:58):
Yes, it sounds so fascinating.
Of course, I heard abouttraveling and I love traveling
too, but I haven't done it asmuch as you, so I always like to
hear the stories.
I feel like when you travel,your mind opens and everything
changes.
I wish everybody could travelso that they could see the world
in a different way.
So, neil, when does your storystart exactly?
Neil Laird (03:25):
love of travel and my and it actually in a way they
both love of travel, love ofhistory kind of happen the same
time.
The my other great love hasalways been filmmaking films.
I grew up as a nerdy kid inwestern pennsylvania with not
much to do, but I becameenamored early on of watching
the old classic movies thatlawrence arabian and seven
samurai and the good, the badand the ugly all these great
epics.
Whatever reason, I was drawn tothese exotic other worlds, so
(03:46):
much so that I went to filmschool.
I went to Temple University inPhiladelphia to get my Bachelor
of the Arts in filmmaking withnarrative films.
I got that after four years inthe 80s and then I zipped up to
New York thinking that I wouldbecome a famous filmmaker
overnight and that didn't happen.
I was a poor guy making sure noone stole the grip truck at two
in the morning while they'remaking some crappy horror film,
(04:08):
and like so many other people,living freelance and paycheck to
paycheck, with a lot of freetime in between, so having very
little to do and little money todo it, I started hanging out
the New York Public Library alot, just because it was free
and it was air conditioned.
And one day I picked up a bookoff the shelf about the rise of
early civilizations, somethingthat I had never got in my small
(04:29):
Catholic school back inGreensburg, pennsylvania, and it
was like a penny dropped.
I became so fascinated by thisunknown world and the rise of
civilization I just didn't know.
I resolved to teach myselfhistory through the New York
Public Library.
I read book after book afterbook and then I got to Egypt and
I really became stuck.
I became so fascinated by theancient Egyptians and the
(04:50):
pyramids and the tombs and howthey did it and how they did it
so early that I just said, screwthis, I'm tired of waiting for
the phone not to ring.
So I scraped up my pennies andI went to the Middle East.
And I backpacked to the MiddleEast for about eight or nine
months, went to all thosecountries in the Middle East,
and I backpacked to the MiddleEast for about eight or nine
months, went to all thosecountries in the Middle East and
just came back with my head inthe clouds and this was in the
(05:11):
early 90s by this point Ninety,ninety one, yeah, ok, and so you
have read so much that youcould be a historian Could do,
though you know, some peoplehave asked me, why aren't you an
archaeologist?
And I guess the argument therewould be that you know I'm not
smart enough to understand thescience and the three or four
languages behind it, what I amas a storyteller.
So yes, so yes, I could veryeasily be a story and historian.
And then when we jump ahead,but you know, when I decided to
(05:32):
write my first book, the naturalprogression would have been to
write a nonfiction history ofEgypt or Rome or Greece.
But I chose fiction because,after a quarter century of
telling those kinds of stories,I wanted to play and just kind
of mix things up a bit and justhave a bit of fun and bring this
cinematic sensibility that Iput aside for so long back into
(05:53):
my life.
Daniela SM (05:54):
So when you were reading in the library, you got
stuck in Egypt.
And then what happened?
Neil Laird (05:57):
Then I just again, I just backpacked.
I convinced a friend, a schoolteacher at the summer off to go
with me.
We flew to Egypt and did acruise and my eyes were just
wide open.
And then we did Israel togetheras well, and then he had to fly
home and then I backpackedthrough Turkey, iran, syria,
Jordan.
I actually came to Jordan.
I love that part of the worldand the people, the Arab
(06:18):
sensibility, the culture, theheat, the desert.
All those things speak to methat when I came back I had to
find a way to make that mycareer.
How can someone pay me to goback and do it again?
Because I can't afford to keepdoing this on my own dime.
Daniela SM (06:34):
When you were there, you were seeing the world in a
different way that maybe mosttravelers have, because you read
so much.
So what were you focusing on?
Neil Laird (06:39):
Certainly the ancient history, but again, I
was a 24-year-old kid orsomething.
So what's in a book and what isout there is two totally
different things.
I knew all about my Ramses theGreat versus my 18th dynasty and
19th dynasty, and I could tellyou when the Wailing Wall was
created and when Herod wasdestroyed.
But what made the trip soabsolutely gobsmackingly
(07:01):
memorable was the people and theplaces.
Because you can't get thatuntil you go there and, as any
first time traveler who'slistening knows, you get to see
who you are too.
When you're traveling, all youruncertainties and strengths and
insecurities come out and youhave to kind of deal with them
and figure out a way tonegotiate.
And this was back in the early80s or early 90s, before
internet and before anyone kindof helping you.
(07:24):
There's no phone calls.
So I just had my lonely planetand a fixed budget and I was
wandering around these placesand I just get on a train and
I'd show up in a small town inTurkey that hopefully I could
find a hotel that was open, andthat sense of freedom ultimately
became freedom.
I remember I was wanderingaround some town, I think it was
in the Iranian border.
I was working my way to Iran.
(07:45):
And I woke up one day and I'dmissed the train and I was stuck
for a few days in this tinysort of nothing town on the
Turkish Iranian border and Ijust started giggling and
laughing because I realized justno one knows where I am.
I'm totally free.
The only connection I have tomy life back in Chicago was my
passport and my ticket home,which wasn't for months and
(08:06):
months.
So I was anonymous and, ratherthan being afraid, I embraced it
.
It was so wonderful.
I was floating on air.
I was like, oh my God, it'slike here I am just exploring
the water on my own terms andmaking up as I go, and I think,
like many travelers who havewanderlust, I've been chasing
that feeling ever since.
Daniela SM (08:33):
The freedom right.
It's funny, I always had thatfeeling when I'm going to offer
my passport to leave.
I always felt that, oh my God,I am free, I can go anywhere.
So I know that feeling Right.
Neil Laird (08:43):
Suddenly it's a whole new world.
You know what's going to happen, right, and it's just you out
there doing it, and, yeah, andanyone who hasn't traveled again
, I think that'd be the moralcertainty of this episode is do
it, don't wait, just do it,because you get to see yourself.
This is not always easy, but,oh my God, it's like once you
dip your toes in that river youwant to feel that forever?
Daniela SM (09:06):
Yes, I know, traveling is not for everyone,
people like to control or to besafe and you know they don't
want to feel uncomfortable orthe things that are not familiar
.
Neil Laird (09:14):
Yeah, comfortable, yeah, you're absolutely right.
And again, if you know, if, if,if a Disney cruise is your
liking, or if going to Jamaica,that's all travel.
It's all up to you.
Certainly, I think once you doit, the more you'll probably
want to explore something alittle bit off the beaten path,
hopefully because you realizethe world isn't quite as
dangerous and ugly places theytell you it is.
Daniela SM (09:35):
I know, I know.
Neil Laird (09:36):
Certainly the American sensibility.
We know that the Arab world too.
I think part of the appealthough I didn't realize until
later was the Arab world growingup under Reagan and Thatcher
and the idea of terrorism wasthat it was totally verboten,
that you did not want to go to abunch of evil people who just
want to, you know, kidnap you orblow you up or something and
all these ugly stereotypes.
(09:56):
So part of that appeal, which Idon't understand what that
really was, was all the more eyeopening because, of course, the
exact opposite, the Arab peoplein the middle, they're among
the friendliest people.
I was invited into homesbecause I got lost or whatever.
And I remember one time I was inSyria and I missed a connecting
train because I did it allcheap, by train and the next one
wasn't for two or three daysand it's like, you know, I had
(10:19):
time but I didn't know where Iwas going and I was kind of down
.
It's like there really wasn'tany place to stay.
And then some old woman who wasat the market selling
watermelons, she saw me and shecame up and started talking to
me in Arabic and I don'tunderstand a word.
She just told me to wait, wait,wait.
Then she came back with her son, who spoke just a little bit of
English, and what they weresaying is the next train is
until Thursday.
It's Tuesday, come stay with us, come stay with us.
(10:48):
And this woman and her son tookme into their house and I
remember they had a goat in thebackyard which they were showing
off with great pride, and thatgoat disappeared before dinner
because they killed it andcooked it for me because I was
an honored guest in their house.
They were so touched that theywere able to do this and help us
, that hospitality.
This was a big thing for themand it wasn't looking for money,
it wasn't looking for anythingelse.
Clearly there was no politicsand we could barely speak, but
(11:09):
their one singular goat wasfelled because I missed a train.
I need a place to stay.
That's how open they were, andI often wonder if that happened
in my town of Greensburg,pennsylvania, would they be just
as generous to the Arabbackpackers?
Daniela SM (11:25):
I'm sorry, I feel so bad for the goat.
Neil Laird (11:29):
It was a damn good goat, though I got to say.
Daniela SM (11:33):
I work in a sport facility and this kid was
dropped by mistake to where Iwork, so he's supposed to be
going to the hospital.
He was coming from New Zealandand he got hurt because he
failed at the airport and heslept in our home and I told the
mom he was 19 years old.
That don't worry, we will takecare of your son.
(11:54):
And for me it was just anatural thing to do.
Like I have kids, I would lovefor my kids to be taken care of
like that If I travel.
I would love people to do thisto me.
So for me it's just like thenormal thing.
Neil Laird (12:07):
It's such a wonderful thing and I wonder why
we are trained not to, whywe're trained to fear.
Certainly the media, which I'mpart of, you know as a thing,
but again you did absolutely thenatural thing, which is like
here's someone in need, you know, you have a house.
It's like the person doesn'tfeel dangerous.
Yet I think we are brainwashedin a way to think that anything
for and anything outside of usis a threat.
Daniela SM (12:27):
Yeah.
So I was telling the story to afriend and they were like we
will never do such thing and Ihad to kind of justify my
behavior and I'm like this isjust the right thing to do.
There was no question about itfor me.
What?
Neil Laird (12:41):
was their argument.
Why did they say it was thewrong thing?
Merely because of safety.
Daniela SM (12:49):
Oh yeah, question about it for me.
What was their argument?
Why did they?
Neil Laird (12:50):
say it was the wrong thing Merely because of safety.
Oh yeah, we don't put strangersin our house.
Anyway, it was a veryinteresting evening.
Well, I mean, I think it's wiseto say I'm glad you said
something, because I thinkpeople do kind of gently maybe
put in their place, because Ithink it's very easy to stay in
those traps of what the rest ofthe world.
They don't even have to be aforeigner.
It could be somebody wanderinghere from Wisconsin or whatever,
where you assume anything is athreat and people need to be
called out a bit about thatstuff, because there's much more
good in the world than there isbad.
Daniela SM (13:12):
There is, of course, and traveling, all your
experiences.
What else?
What happened?
What happened next?
Neil Laird (13:18):
Well then I was successful enough.
I went to grad school and Imade a thesis film about the
great sphinx of Egypt, which Iabsolutely adore.
That, and a friend of mine'sfather, luckily, was an
antiquities board in Egypt, sohe helped me get some permits
for free, and things that werevery to shoot in Egypt is so
expensive.
You put your tripods on thesand and it costs you ten
(13:38):
thousand pounds or something.
It's super crazy so I couldn'tafford it otherwise.
Crazy so I couldn't afford itotherwise.
But because of my friend'sfather, a geologist who worked
in Cairo, I was able to followthe stonemasons who were
restoring the Great Sphinx ofEgypt.
This was now the mid-90s.
The Sphinx had been terriblyeroded and they did a botched
job.
The Italians did a botched job.
They hired these Italianengineers to do it and it made
(13:59):
the Sphinx worse.
And the Sphinx was actuallyalmost like shedding its skin.
The blocks they put on it werefalling off and it was in a
terrible shape.
So the Egyptian governmentwisely figured well, the only
way to save this is to figureout how they did it originally,
which of course is hard four anda half thousand years later.
But what they did is they hireda bunch of local stone masons
who understood the ancientEgyptian craft to come in local
(14:20):
Egyptians to shore it up andrestore it.
And I was able to get there andrecord this their story.
While they did it and I wasclimbing all the Sphinx with
them, going into the secretpassageways and the rump of the
Sphinx I went home with one ofthe stone masons got dysentery
that knocked me out for a weekbut it was still worth it and I
was able to make that film andthen I sold it to Discovery
(14:41):
Channel.
This is 1997.
It was also my thesis film ingrad school, so that shot me
right into the business.
I kind of skipped all the stepsand went right into making
those kind of films all in oneswoop and then since then I've
been making films.
Daniela SM (14:54):
I've been to over 70 countries, made over a thousand
hours but how do you learn tomake films where I was in the,
in the well?
Neil Laird (15:01):
you make a lot of mistakes.
The first, the first cut, wasterrible.
Actually, I had another greatexperience I had that really
helped both sell it and helpedme shape.
It was at the time I wasinterning and this is Chicago
where I went to grad school andI was interning a place called
Cartemquin Films, which is stillaround, and a wonderful outfit
of filmmakers independent outfitof filmmakers, who do a lot of
(15:25):
social work and stuff, andthey're working on a film that
maybe you remember the titlecalled hoop dreams, which was a
huge documentary that came outin 1994 and no one thought it
was going to be a anything andthen suddenly became what an
oscar and became a seminal filmof the 90s.
And they were following twoblack kids in the ghettos of
chicago who wanted to becomebasketball stars, who had hoop
dreams, and for seven years theyfollowed these kids.
(15:52):
These two filmmakers fromUniversity of Illinois just
believed in it and when I cameon board as an assistant editor
they had 250 hours and didn'tknow what to do with this thing,
but they kept shaping it andshaping and shaping it and what
appeared?
I watched these two filmmakerscraft this thing and how to edit
in post.
A lot of editing in documentaryis not scripted like like a film
.
You don't have a script or ablueprint.
(16:13):
You may have a few things youwant when you go in the field,
but basically you're winging itand then you have thousands of
hours of footage or hundreds ofhours of footage, and then you
make sense of it in post, in inedit, and that's what they were
doing.
So I had the best perch towatch a story emerge, you know,
like Michelangelo finding theDavid out of a hunk of granite.
(16:34):
In there slowly came out thiswonderful film, and it was just
this beautiful, beautiful film.
And I was also fortunate that Ibecame close with one of the
filmmakers, so he lent his nameto my film to help me get it
sold to Learning Channel, butalso there as a mentor.
Frederick Marks is his name andhe was there every step of the
(16:55):
way, giving me guidance andlending his name and doing all
the wheeling and dealing for us,but letting me step back and
make the film myself, and Icertainly made tons of mistakes.
Daniela SM (17:05):
Do you have to have a talent too?
Neil Laird (17:06):
I believe.
So I like to think yeah, I meanit's.
Look, it's not for everybody.
Filmmaking is tough, not justbeing in the field.
People always think how exoticyou're out there, can I carry
your bags?
And you have to go out thereand find the stories
Interviewing.
You know, for most of my lifeI've been on your side of things
.
I've been doing the interviews,listening and trying to find
the best performance or beststories within somebody and
(17:26):
getting them to feel comfortable.
And then going back and findingwhat the spine of the film is
is storytelling.
And it's, yes, it's a craft,but it's also, I think, in many
ways innate.
I think I've seen a lot offilmmakers don't quite get it
and other people just take to itlike that.
For me the hard part was justtrying to understand the craft
and putting it together.
I was a 24, 25 kid in my firstfilm, but certainly over time it
(17:49):
becomes better and better and Ihad a real aptitude for it.
I still do.
I'm still making films fortelevision.
That has been my career sincethe mid-90s.
So absolutely, it's talent aswell as repetition.
Daniela SM (18:03):
And so then you made this movie and you sent it to
Discovery Channel, and it was ahit.
Neil Laird (18:07):
The film did well enough.
I think they didn't know quitewhat to do with it, because I
think I'm happy with what I did.
But in a way I focused too muchon the Egyptians and not on the
archaeologists and the whitepeople, so I think it might have
turned some of the viewers offat the time.
Some of the reviews saying Iwould like to know more about,
you know, the archaeologists,not the stonemasons.
So I'm glad I did that, becausethese are people that were the
(18:27):
story.
But what the film did it was agateway to allow me to keep
doing it again.
Then I did one on Stonehengeand spent time with druids, and
then in one of the KnightsTemplar and I was up in Scotland
and then I became a shipwreckguy and I went to Malta and the
Middle East again and then wenton Ankerwatt and Burma.
I just became that guy BecauseSaving the Sphinx did well
(18:50):
enough and it was a unique story.
No one had told a story aboutthe restoration before.
So the access helped too and,like you said, understanding the
history helps me sell it andwrite the story and develop it
and pitch it.
So I knew the craft ofstorytelling and I knew the
history and how to bind the two.
Daniela SM (19:05):
So Discovery Channel gave you the opportunity to
make movies.
They were supporting you.
Neil Laird (19:10):
Correct.
They funded the film.
Okay, the way it works is atleast.
Back then I was a DiscoveryChannel executive, you know,
full circle for 12 years.
I just left that job lastsummer, came back to that world,
but at that point I was aproducer who had a pitch tape.
I went and I shot 15 minutes ofit.
And then my friend atCartumquin he went to the
network and pitched it and saysif you give us I forget how much
(19:33):
, it was $400,000, we will giveyou an hour documentary based on
this concept and then Discoveryfunds it and they own it and
then they send you off and thenyou know, you make it, you give
it to the network and they helpyou shape it and then they air
it.
So it's a Discovery projectthat I was hired for, but I did
all the creative work in thefield.
Daniela SM (19:52):
Wow Interesting, and so you worked with them until
now.
Neil Laird (19:56):
That was the 90s.
I mean I was a freelanceproducer on the production side
for 10 years working for BBC.
I eventually got hired as anexecutive producer for the
network.
So I became the guy, not whomade it, but the guy who was
giving me notes.
Back in the 90s I now becamethat guy that you would come to
(20:17):
me with a project and pitch it.
We would give you the money.
Then I would be your contact,your boss at the network.
I would look at your scripts,your treatments, and that's what
I did for the last 15 years.
I was an EP on the network.
Oh wow, 15 years.
Daniela SM (20:29):
I was an EP on the network.
Oh wow, and how was the switch?
Because you.
Neil Laird (20:35):
I'm not creating anymore.
It's a very good question.
It's a very astute questionbecause it's a different kind of
creation, because I started togo in there and look at the
script and see what was workingand why it wasn't working.
I would take their rough cutand offer notes.
You can't just simply say it'sbad, make it better.
There's some EPs have certainlydone that.
You have to know what you'redoing and you have to understand
how to make it work.
A lot of the stuff thing aboutdocumentary, as we talked
earlier, is since there is noscript, sometimes the opening
(20:59):
bite is in the wrong place, oryour thesis is the wrong place,
or your lead is buried in thethird act and not the first.
So it's really hard to tellwhen you're in the weeds making
it.
But as an exec who madehundreds and hundreds of hours
by the end of it I could look ata script or a cut and I can
tell you in one viewing oh, movethis here, move that there.
(21:21):
This bite is here, create thatcharacter.
It just becomes an intuitive,intuitive thing after over all
the years.
But you're right, thecreativity is far less.
I have my fingerprints onthousands of hours of shows, but
they're not mine, they're thepeople.
When I made them, I made my 30or 40 hours or whatever in the
field and then I oversaw entireseries so I'd be looking at 100
hours in any given month orwhatever.
(21:42):
I did Shark Week which is a bigthing on Discovery for like
seven years or something, whereI would have eight or nine shows
I was watching just that weekand then giving notes.
So you can't make them theirown, you have to create them,
get them ready for network andthen send them back out.
And why that was rewarding?
Because it highly tuned mywriting skills.
It's exactly why I startedgetting itchy feet about being
(22:04):
creative again, which is why Istarted writing novels in my
spare time, because I wanted toown something again was in my
spare time, because I wanted toown something again.
I wanted to get back in there,get my hands dirty and create
something from scratch and bethe one who's vitally making
something important from theget-go, which you really can't
do with the network because youcome in too late, it's already
somebody else's baby.
Daniela SM (22:23):
Uh-huh, you say, in your spare time, was it such a
thing?
Neil Laird (22:26):
It's funny, you know it's a good question, because
an EPA network works their buttoff, I know, and sometimes
weekends and stuff.
But what's amazing is when youbecome passionate or obsessed, I
would say, about something, youfind the time.
I would set my alarm for 5 amand I would make two pots of
coffee and I would write everyday until 9.30, 10 am when the
(22:48):
notes started coming in fromDiscovery, and then every
Saturday I would give up mySaturday morning much to my
husband to sugar in sometimesand I'd write till one or two in
the afternoon and I just becametotally focused on the writing
and it was time.
I thought I didn't have.
It was there.
You just have to give up.
You got to sleep a little less,you got to go to bed a little
(23:09):
earlier.
The time is there.
If you want something, you canalways find the time is there.
If you want something, you canalways find the time.
Daniela SM (23:14):
So I did all that by juggling a full-time job, wow
Okay, holidays.
And so what happened then?
When did you decide?
Okay, it's enough now ofjuggling.
I want to focus on one thing.
Neil Laird (23:22):
Well, I mean, I was.
I'm still in the business andthe only reason I'm not at
Discovery is because of thebusiness, not because of me.
Just network television in theUS and the UK and Europe as well
is going through a sea change.
It's constricting dramaticallyand so many of all the streaming
services.
Two years ago, warner Brothersand Discovery Channel merged in
a $44 billion merge, so it's thebiggest merger ever.
(23:43):
So entire networks, includingmy network, science Channel,
went away and me and severalother I think 800 of us were let
go last summer.
They just let go another 800last week Discovery Channel.
So the business is gettingsmaller.
They're making less hours andtherefore they need less
creative people and less peoplein the network to watch the
shows.
So I was let go because theresimply was no money.
(24:06):
They were trying to save money.
So I'm back in the freelanceworld.
The first thing I did when I gotmy severance is well, I'm going
to write another book.
I rented a villa in Sorrento forabout a month because I've
always wanted to write a bookabout Pompeii.
So I wrote the sequel to thebook that's already out
Primetime Pompeii and I just sat, got a little villa and it was
just two train stops away fromPompeii, one of my favorite
(24:27):
places Get up in the morning andI would write, and then I would
get on the train and go lookaround Pompeii and take notes
and come back and write somemore and then go for a swim and
go to bed.
So that's the luxury of thewriter.
Now that I'm a freelancer again, I'm going to Turkey to write
primetime Troy, but now I'm offthe clock, so you kind of have
lots of time, but what you missis obviously the cash coming in
(24:47):
from the networks.
So I have to balance that outby making more shows.
So when I come back I have aproject set up for History
Channel which I'll jump on forsix months and then go back and
forth and try to find thatbalance.
Daniela SM (24:59):
Is no retirement for you, so you still want to work
or you have to work.
Neil Laird (25:03):
Both, I suppose I mean theoretically.
I guess I could go off and livemodestly somewhere.
But no, I still enjoytelevision and, I think, also
books.
My first book, primetimeTravelers, is out now.
It's on Amazon and it's a smallindependent press and I'll be
lucky to make the money back.
I'm not going to become StephenKing overnight.
There's not a lot of cash inbeing a novelist.
(25:25):
It's probably the second mostridiculous career choice after
being a TV producer in terms ofmonetary gain.
So you got to stick to your dayjob.
If I was able to just writefull time, absolutely If I could
write my novels I got so manyideas of novels, I got the
series going.
I'm on my third one.
I had three other novels that Icouldn't get an agent for
(25:45):
sitting in a drawer, so they'reready to go.
I'm a very quick, passionatewriter and if I could do that
full time, if I could buy aplace in the eastern
Mediterranean overlooking theBay of Naples or whatever, and
just write my novels, that wouldbe my first choice.
But I'm not sure that lifestyleis within reach right now.
Daniela SM (26:03):
Oh, wow, Wow.
But so you're so creative.
It's incredible.
What else in your life iscreative for you, Like you know
the film, the writing.
What else in your life iscreative for you, Like you know,
the film, the writing.
Neil Laird (26:13):
Is there an extra hobby that you have?
The writing certainly was thehobby To your question where did
you find the time?
My hobby was writing novels,you know at 8, you know at night
, on a Saturday or whatever.
I mean.
Travel still impels me, pushesme forward, and one of the
things that I've been doing likethe characters in the primetime
books, because I can create myown characters One thing I've
always wanted to do, andsomething that I saw so much
when I traveled both to theMiddle East but also reading
(26:35):
about ancient history is being agay man and understanding how
the LGBTQ life was so differentback in the day where, in many
ways, ancient worlds like Egypt,greece and Rome, they were more
free.
It was easier to be gay andqueer because there was no label
for it.
So a lot of that happened withthe rise of Christianity and the
question of you know us versusthem.
(26:57):
Not only are my characters gay.
When they go back, like in thesecond book, the camera woman is
a lesbian.
She falls in love with someonein Pompeii.
In the first book, my leadcharacter falls in love with a
Nubian guard in Egypt.
I want to make very positivestories about gay life then and
now.
So another hobby tied in withmy book is I do a series of
TikTok and Instagram videos ongay history Me talking about
(27:19):
Emperor Hadrian or Julius Caesaror mythology, or the first
transsexuals in history whichwere Mesopotamian priests in
ancient Iraq and I just kind oftell these little stories and
try to edify and educate peoplein a kind of a fun, simple way,
because I think that's somethingthat as a historian, as a gay
man who's traveled the world, Ihave that perspective that many
other people don't.
Daniela SM (27:38):
When you mentioned that before, I was concerned.
Like when you go to othercountries where it's illegal to
be gay.
How do you handle that?
Neil Laird (27:45):
I mean, it's a very good question because you have
to mind your P's and Q's andobviously any kind of of.
Even in very conservativecountries I think of iran, or I
think of syria, egypt in manyregards, once you've got the
touristy bits, even straightcouples need to sort of like, be
careful.
Acts of kissing or whatever,regardless of gender, are
frowned upon, but certainly,being gay, I've never had any
(28:07):
incidents of violent homophobiaor or anything that was strong.
Partially, partially because Ithink there's a double standard
in many of those places where ifyou're a tourist, they leave
you alone.
They know you're leaving in afortnight, you're just coming
through.
They want your money in a way,and also it's a different
culture.
Most of the Egyptians and theSyrians or whatever, they
respect that.
I don't usually share thatinformation because you don't
(28:27):
know how people are going torespond.
You know, I was in West Africain many ways it's even more
homophobic and I was there witha friend of a friend and he
picked me up at the airport.
I was going to stay with him.
He started railing against gaymarriage, which just passed, and
how disgusting it was and howObama, who had passed it, was
going to rot in hell.
It's like, oh wow, okay, youdon't.
So I just shut my mouth anddidn't talk about that, because
(28:49):
I'm in their culture, I am intheir country, I'm not going to
change an entire people orchange, you know, entire
religion.
So sometimes you have to walklightly.
What I do find, more than anykind of oppression against me,
is repression from them,particularly when I travel alone
, which is a lot.
I get hit on all the time byguys in the park in a very sort
(29:09):
of just levacious or almost youknow, sort of like.
They don't know what they'redoing.
They're doing it very badly too, but I think it's because of
the sexual repression of beinggay there.
They figure they can hit on someWesterner, some decadent
Westerner coming through for aweek because they can't do it at
the mosque or they can't do itat home.
There's no real residue.
If you do it with somebodywho's gone, they can still
hopefully get through.
And I find that so deeply sadbecause you know these people
(29:32):
are living a double life andthese people are so desperate
for that kind of affection andyou know what they would get
from a stranger in the park isnot what they really need.
You know they need love andtenderness and all that kind of
stuff that goes with true love.
The society won't allow them todo that, so there's just many
repressed gay guys living inthis part of the world that will
never come out, because they'rethe ones who are in more danger
(29:52):
than me.
I fly back to Manhattan.
They stay, yeah.
Daniela SM (29:55):
You learned about the freedom that they had in the
past?
You know, because you say therewere no labels, just by reading
it or just assuming, or howWell, don't you see?
Neil Laird (30:05):
it.
You see it?
I mean certainly I talked toarchaeologists and Egyptologists
or whoever and they're thehistory On my very first trip,
and I've told this in a coupleother podcasts who ask about gay
life.
But I think it always bearsrepeating is, even though at
that point I was, if I was out Idon't know if I was out or not,
I think it was just coming outbut certainly I was trying to
understand my place in the worldand homosexuality's place in
(30:26):
the world and it went to Saqqara, which is one of my favorite
archaeological sites south ofCairo the Great Step Pyramid.
If you ever see the Step Pyramid, it's the oldest pyramid, four
and a half thousand years old,and there's a very elite
graveyard there that was madefor the richest of the rich, of
the pharaoh, so long ago, fourmillennia ago.
So anyone who could be buriedthere already was sanctioned by
(30:47):
the pharaoh and by thegovernment.
They were the best of the best,and there's a tomb there called
the Tomb of the Brothers, whichis a ridiculous title I'll talk
about in a minute, but when yougo in there it's so very clear
that it's a same-sex couple, twomen that were buried side by
side and they have sarcophaginext to each other and the place
is just a delight of frescoesof these two men holding hands,
(31:08):
touching nose to nose, which isthe Egyptian form of kissing,
fishing, dancing, spending timetogether.
It clearly was a queer couplethat the government thought it
was okay for them to be buriedtogether and they were out and
proud.
Now they didn't say that.
You know, at no point did hesay marriage, because back then
those kind of things there wasno name for it.
So whether it was saying, oh,that's our gay friends, or
(31:30):
whether you said these two guysare in love, but here is a
celebration of this life ofthese two rich, elite men four
and a half thousand years ago.
Clearly, at the time it wasaccepted.
It's called Tomb of theBrothers because when it was
found in 1964 by archaeologists,the homophobia was so ripe it
couldn't possibly be two gayguys.
It had to have been twobrothers.
There was one theory, even morecrackpot, that said well, it may
(31:53):
not be brothers, perhaps theywere Siamese twins, and that's
why they're so close together.
That's why they're nose to nose, because physically they can't
move away from it.
That's how far people bend overin their homophobia to dismiss
the fact that this was a naturallove between two men who just
decided to go off into thedo-what the field of, between
two men who just decided to gooff into the Duat, the Fjord of
(32:14):
Reeds, together for eternity.
It's a wonderful story and yetit's buried.
So you have to look deep so youknow.
When you start looking around,you go to Rome, which is in
Pompeii, and you see a lot ofgay icons there and in the Roman
world.
They all had a different.
There was no real name for itbecause, again, it was something
that was very, very common.
There were certain roles.
Later on, the Romans startedsaying the man who was the
(32:35):
active partner, you know, in sexwas a man, but the one who was
a passive partner was not, youknow.
So that kind of stuff startedcreeping in in terms of
masculinity and femininity.
But beyond that, you could lovewhoever you want, have sex
whoever you wanted with, andthose are the stories that you
see time and time again in theseearly cultures, where it wasn't
until later, where it wasdecided by priests or imams or
(32:57):
whoever else, that, oh, you'regoing straight to hell for this
kind of thinking.
That is a modern interpretationof same-sex love.
Daniela SM (33:05):
And I don't really think it's going to change very
time soon.
Neil Laird (33:08):
No, no, I mean certainly.
I mean we won't talk aboutcurrent politics here, but yeah,
I think the pendulum isswinging back.
But, conversely, here I ammarried to my husband, which I
didn't expect to happen.
We were legally married andhave been since 2011, when it
became legal.
So things do march forward.
What people say when they canhide and what they say when
they're in front of you.
You know, I've been to theSouth, which you assume is much
(33:34):
more homophobic and certainly is, I think, because it's much
more Christian.
With my husband no, we don't goout of our way, but we're
clearly two men.
He's Black as well, so it's aBlack and white guy coming
together and we walk into asmall town in Tennessee and the
waitress knows pretty quicklywe're a couple.
They usually smile and they sayI've never felt that kind of
thing.
So I think what people see whenthey see you face to face is
very different.
What they say when they canhide.
(33:59):
I made the mistake a fascinatingeye opening.
I won't say it's a mistake, butit certainly was eye opener.
When I started advertising myfirst book, primetime Travelers,
a friend said oh well, you'redoing ads on Facebook, you
should boost it, which means youjust get it out there and
anybody can see it, so it's notjust your friends or your family
or people in your groups.
It goes out.
I'm not sure how the algorithmworks, but it goes out.
So all these gay videos I didone on transgenders in
Mesopotamia, which I mentioned,and I think one on maybe Emperor
(34:21):
Hadrian who had a beautifullover, young lover it went out
and it went all these people whowere just full of homophobia
and hate, and I got the ugliest,most insulting, hateful,
personal responses about me inthe videos and it was just this
down and dirty nastiness, alwaysfrom anonymous people or some
guy that could be anybody that'shiding.
(34:41):
It's easy to throw stones whenyou can hide behind the parapet
afterwards.
It's a double standard.
I think a lot of what'shappening with homophobia and
with politics everything else isan anonymity where you can hide
among the crowd.
But again, face to face.
I want to test that everywhere.
I really haven't had any ofthat kind of stuff either in the
States or in the Middle East orAsia or whatever.
It's pretty clear that we are agay couple, but in most cases
(35:04):
they still serve our dinner witha smile.
Daniela SM (35:07):
I feel like when they see you, they see the human
.
Then people, when they're notwatching or looking at the human
, they just have an opinion.
Neil Laird (35:15):
Precisely, precisely , because it's no longer looking
at the individual.
It's now just a polemic ratherthan the person.
Daniela SM (35:21):
One story is like we were in the car and my kids
were small and one of the bestfriends of my son is Asian and
one of the other friends saysthese Chinese people?
And he said I don't know what.
And then he turns to her friendand said but you're okay, cause
you're a friend.
Neil Laird (35:36):
Precisely, there is hypocrisy right there right.
Daniela SM (35:43):
Yeah, yeah.
Neil Laird (35:44):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly.
Daniela SM (35:44):
Because that's what we, we always.
Neil Laird (35:46):
You put it in generalized, you say things and
I'm like, oh, but you knowyou're okay, cause you're my
friend, Right, people alwayslike to, you know.
Perhaps if they say somethingyou know anti-black, you know in
front of my husband, oranti-gay, in front of both of us
, but some of my best friendsare black, some of my best
friends are gay, so but they'reokay, it's just the rest of the
culture that I don't like, youknow.
So it's like it's a verystrange thing.
I think it's fear and I thinkit's following the crowd.
(36:06):
And until once, once again, tobring it back to travel and the
positive.
You cannot backpack to themiddle east.
You cannot see the world andcome back, be the same person
about these places.
You, you know, you've been ininner cambodia and someone's
helped you out in a rainstorm,or you're in a poor village in
india and they take you and theygive you a bed.
You will not think aboutindians and cambodians the same
(36:27):
way because you looked them inthe eye yes, exactly, but at the
end we're just humans, reallyfoolish.
Daniela SM (36:33):
You know, my grandmother was from venezuela,
but she had some indigenous,some black maybe according to my
dna, we don't know, you know,and when she came to vancouver,
people sometimes thought thatshe was asian because she was
short, and so we talked to herin chinese, and then I will see
pictures of indigenous fromMexico and indigenous here, and
(36:55):
I'm like they are so similar.
Neil Laird (36:57):
We are so similar that there is, you know, just
change on physicality we all areand I don't understand why we
some to think it's an us versusthem everywhere you go, or like
they're just strange and howthey do college.
That's what I love about travelagain is the culture.
It's like you've been to aNubian wedding.
You say it's so different thanmy own, but how wonderful it is.
(37:17):
They have their own culture andlearn from it, rather than
saying, oh, when I would do this, I wouldn't do that.
Yes, who cares?
Who cares?
You still do.
People getting married.
Daniela SM (37:32):
For me it's important how you behave.
I mean you tend to generalize.
Neil Laird (37:33):
I grew up in a Latin country and when somebody's
late, you're like a typicalLatin.
Of course, we all do that.
We all do that, and there'ssome truth to stereotypes,
clearly you know.
But again, your story abouttaking that kid in, it's like
that's exactly what you shoulddo.
It's just somebody in need andthat kid could have been black,
white, asian, gay, it didn'tmatter, right, it was just
somebody who just needed a placeto stay.
There could be more of that inthe world.
I don't know.
There certainly is ugliness outthere, but I do think that the
(37:53):
best way to face it is toliterally face it person to
person and you say, oh yeah,they're just like me.
Daniela SM (38:00):
So, neil, how many books in total have you written
so far?
Neil Laird (38:03):
I've published one, primetime Travelers, and then
Primetime Pompeii.
The second one comes out in thefall, when I get back from
Turkey.
I'll release that.
And then Prime Time Troy, whichI start writing, hopefully will
come out next year.
Then I have two or three othersin a shelf which I'll figure
out how to publish them when thetime comes.
Daniela SM (38:21):
And at the meantime, you're doing TikTok videos even
though people are sending hatemessages.
Neil Laird (38:28):
Well, I stopped doing that.
Most of the people are veryembracing and I found a
wonderful community on Facebook.
There's a thing called MM Maleto Male Adventure and Romance.
I didn't even know MM stood foranything until I started
getting into publishing andthese people just absolutely
adore anything that has strongmale characters that are gay,
and they have been wonderful.
They gave me great reviews onAmazon.
They've shared it with peopleand that's a key thing.
(38:49):
If anybody here is listening,is interested and read the book,
you know you can get on amazonbut also leave a review on
amazon or goodreads, because thealgorithm is very much about
the more reviews you get.
The higher you go up there, themore noticeability you get, and
it's always great to getreviews from all walks of life,
not just the gay space or thefantasy space or whatever else,
just to get people from acrossdifferent, different uh walks of
(39:12):
life, because that helps thevisibility rise.
Daniela SM (39:15):
Are you talking only about gay men, or men in
general as well?
Neil Laird (39:18):
Oh, no, no.
The premise of the book Ishould probably say all the
books.
The series is a film crew, muchlike what I work with, a TV
film crew that discovers aportal to ancient Egypt and two
of them are gay and two of themare not.
There's a host, an IndianaJones-like host, which is a
parody.
The lead director, his camerawoman they're gay.
And then Ali, the sound guyfrom Cairo, he's straight and
(39:39):
they meet different people.
So it's not a gay book.
It's a book that somebody hasgay characters in it.
At the end of the day, it's anadventure.
It's a time travel IndianaJones adventure that just
happened to have gay charactersin it.
Indiana Jones adventure thatjust happened to have gay
characters in it.
So it was on some hot and heavy, spicy romance kind of thing.
You know, it definitely is fora general audience, but it's
very pro LGBTQ.
Daniela SM (39:58):
What I want to get out is like you are also your
male characters.
Women have been talking a lotabout women's stuff, and so men
have lost a little bit of theirspot in the world, and so I was
wondering if you are helpingwith that in a way that I don't
know.
Neil Laird (40:14):
It's certainly started looking for an agent and
started publishing.
That you know being a whitemale is.
You know our days are numbered.
You know we had a good run andnow it's like a chance for the
women and other minorities who,rightly, can think so being a
white male was, was, you know,not not the thing of the moment.
My being gay helped me kind ofhave a different perspective and
(40:35):
that's what became moreinteresting.
This is just a different way tokind of tell the Indiana Jones
story.
The new twist more interesting.
This is just a different way tokind of tell the Indiana Jones
story with a new twist.
So I don't think I have amission in terms of saying it's
any kind of one character tryingto boost the masculinity,
because you know the leadcharacter, jared, he's gay but
he's also the leader to becomestronger by the second book,
pompeii is very much a leader.
So you know it's just people,like you said talking about
(40:57):
earlier.
They're just people who, of thecrew, there's one straight
white guy, then there's a blackwoman who's lesbian from the
bronx, there's ali the sound guy, a conservative muslim, and
then there's jared from kansaswho's gay and comes out.
So it's a mix of people andthen they go back in time and
they meet centurions and andgladiators or whatever else.
So I try to bring all thosepeople together and try to make
(41:19):
them all come to life as realpeople wow, but the imagination
is incredible and also thepsychology in there, because
you're putting so manycomplications in each
personality yes, yeah, but a lot.
But you need complicationsbecause it allows you to dig
deeper into the character.
So, like ali, the sound personin the second book, he in his
(41:40):
second, first book, he kind ofthe second.
He's, you know, the localegyptian guy who's oh, let's get
the arab guy who, like he,thinks he knows everything you
know because he'll save us money.
But in the second book, whenthey go to pompeii, he's an
outsider too.
So it's him trying to grab himwith his own point of history.
So he becomes hell-bent onsaving the artifacts from
pompeii, the manuscripts,because he recognizes,
recognizes, being Egyptian, howimportant it is to have these
(42:01):
relics and how important it isto save these things for
posterity.
So his mission through all thebooks now will be to help
preserve stuff that has lost tohistory, and that is his through
line.
So Ali has that, and then eachone of them has a different
story that hopefully followsthroughout.
So you need those complexitiesbecause that's where the tension
comes from and that's where thecharacter growth comes from.
Daniela SM (42:23):
But you have to have this enormous capability of
going from one character toanother.
So how is that?
Neil Laird (42:30):
And you have to know them.
And it's something again Ilearned it's interesting when I
started writing my first book,which all took place in ancient
Egypt.
The plot points came easy thecause and effect, the
cliffhangers, all the stuff thatI brought from television with
six acts and commercials, youknow, keeping a story moving.
What was hard for me was thatinternal life, because as a
documentary filmmaker, I'm doingwhat you're doing right now.
(42:52):
You're interviewing people andyou're getting the emotion from
somebody else.
Then you cut it in later and sothey give that to you.
When you're a novelist, it'sjust me.
So I have to know who Jared isand I have to know who Kara and
Ali the sound guy is andunderstand them.
And that took me a long time toscratch away the surface and
figure out who they were.
It took me many, many drafts.
(43:12):
The plot came very easily for me, all the drama and the
cliffhanger stuff.
I have a strong gift for that.
What I had to learn is almostlike a second language was that
internal life and who they are.
And until you figure that out,a book doesn't work.
People don't read a book justbecause of the adventure.
They read it because they careabout those characters and they
(43:34):
worry about those characters andthey want to spend time with
those characters and one of themdies.
You want them to shout outbecause that means you're
invested not just in the factthat you're stealing a mummy
horde from Egypt, but it's abunch of people that you want to
be with that are stealing amummy horde from.
Daniela SM (43:49):
Egypt.
Yeah, that's why sometimes Ihave issues reading, because I
get into the character and thenI forget they're my realities.
Yeah.
Neil Laird (43:56):
Isn't it great.
It's a wonderful gift.
Daniela SM (43:57):
Yeah, but I'm not even a writer, so I just wonder
how it could be for you to haveall these characters and then
who are you?
Neil Laird (44:06):
at the end you're well, I do style, I do look at
that.
That's why you're asking mequestions about me.
It's like I'm not nearly asinteresting as the characters I
create.
I'm just a guy that just opensmy mouth and I put my fingers
down and then suddenly they doall the work in my head yeah,
but but all of this is in yourhead.
It is in my head.
Yeah, exactly.
Daniela SM (44:22):
You are the artist.
That's amazing.
Yeah, wow, that's fantastic,and so you're leaving soon to
Turkey.
Neil Laird (44:29):
Yeah, I fly Friday night to south of Turkey along
the Aegean, a small town calledBusburn, which have a tiny villa
and again, it's overlookingsome Greek ruins and it's near
the shore and a great sunset.
I'm going to go there and justspend a month and wander the
ruins and swim and then rideevery day and wander around Troy
and other ruin sites and justkind of be inspired there and
(44:51):
hopefully I'll come back with avery sloppy, rudimentary first
draft.
That's the goal.
Daniela SM (44:56):
Wonderful, great.
Thank you so much, neil, forsharing your story and for
letting me be in your world.
It was fascinating.
Neil Laird (45:03):
It was my pleasure.
Thank you for reaching out.
It was fantastic.
I'm glad you want to spend timein my crazy head.
Daniela SM (45:08):
Yes, wonderful, have a wonderful trip.
And it's very successful forthe books as well, thank you,
and we will put everything inthe show notes, of course, for
people to reach out and buy yourbook and get to know more about
Neil.
Neil Laird (45:21):
Yeah, I mean and obviously you know, since it's a
series, as I tell anyone whoreads the book, this is ongoing
characters.
If you do read it and go to thewebsite and reach out and tell
me what you like about them,what you don't like them, where
you want to see them go next,because hearing from the readers
is so important when you'recreating characters that keep
coming back.
I'd love to know exactly whothey like and who they don't
(45:44):
like and where they want to gonext, because that helps inspire
me as I move forward.
Give it a good review and, youknow, reach out on neolaircom
and, you know, get on themailing list or reach out and
just say hey, you know I loveJared.
I'd love to see Jared go to theRenaissance next, or how come
Jared did this?
I really want to see that.
Whatever it is, it's all open.
Yes, great, just, you know,reach out because you know it's
an ongoing adventure.
(46:09):
Yes, and I would like everybodyto follow you on the social
media, right?
So what is your social media?
Yeah, I mean so you can go toNeolaird Author on Facebook or
you can go to TikTok and see thegay videos, which also has
other videos it's gay underscorehistory.
And one thing I'll be doingfrom Turkey is I'll be posting
regular videos every day aboutwriting my book in Turkey and
showing it around and kind ofshowing that world around too,
so you can kind of follow me insort of real time writing the
next book.
Daniela SM (46:29):
Okay, perfect, all right.
Thank you so much All right?
Neil Laird (46:32):
Thanks so much for having me Cheers.
Daniela SM (46:35):
I hope you enjoyed today's episode.
I am Daniela and you arelistening to, because Everyone
has a Story.
Please take five seconds rightnow and think of somebody in
your life that may enjoy whatyou just heard, or someone that
has a story to be shared andpreserved.
When you think of that person,shoot them a text with the link
(46:55):
of this podcast.
This will allow the ordinarymagic to go further.
Join me next time for anotherstory conversation.
Thank you for listening.
Hasta pronto.
Hi, I'm Daniela.
Welcome to my podcast.
Because Everyone has a Story,the place to give ordinary
people's stories the chance tobe shared and preserved.
Our stories become the languageof connections.
Let's enjoy it.
Connect and relate, becauseeveryone has a story.
Relate because everyone has astory.
(00:34):
Welcome.
My guest is Neil Laird.
He is an LGBTQIA pluspassionate storyteller and Emmy
nominated filmmaker turnedfiction writer.
His work has taken him fromhistoric libraries in New York
to ancient ruins in the MiddleEast, producing over a hundred
programs for networks like BBC,discovery Channel and National
Geographic.
(00:54):
While traveling, neilexperienced the kindness of
strangers, including a Syrianfamily who gave up their only
goat to honour him.
These moments, along with thekey projects of the Great Sphinx
, inspire his shift fromdocumentary to fiction writing.
He also shares insights fromhis career personal stories
(01:19):
moving from freelance producerto a BBC executive before
returning to his writing roots.
I was captivated by Neil's lifestory.
His charm, kindness andopen-mindedness are truly
fascinating.
I hope you find his story asenchanting as I did.
Let's enjoy it.
Welcome, neil, to the show.
Neil Laird (01:41):
Thank you for having me.
It's fun.
Daniela SM (01:43):
Yes, and I am super excited that I met you not long
ago and this beautiful smile ofyours and this energy, that I'm
super, super excited that you'rehere to share your story.
So why do you want to shareyour story?
Neil Laird (01:57):
Well, first of all you reached out for me and thank
you.
You must have saw something inmy profile on Podmatch that
pricked up your ears and it'swonderful to kind of find
somebody who recognizes thatenthusiasm.
And I think my story I can'tsay it's unique, but I certainly
would say it's my own and I'velived it fully is my absolute
love of travel and myfascination particularly with
(02:17):
the ancient world and trying tounderstand how earlier cultures
did what they did and how theydid it so beautifully,
particularly Egypt and Rome.
I've always been enamored ofthose early civilizations, so
much so that I've spent the last25 years as a documentary
filmmaker going to these places,making films for National
Geographic and BBC and PBS, andit's really been sort of my
(02:38):
passion that's driven my life.
And then recently I've moved onto writing novels based on my
travels, but I'm allowing to getinto fiction and time travel
and kind of play with theconfines of the real and the
unreal, something I couldn't doas a documentary filmmaker for
the last quarter century.
All that, throw that in theblender and you can pick that
apart as you like.
Daniela SM (02:58):
Yes, it sounds so fascinating.
Of course, I heard abouttraveling and I love traveling
too, but I haven't done it asmuch as you, so I always like to
hear the stories.
I feel like when you travel,your mind opens and everything
changes.
I wish everybody could travelso that they could see the world
in a different way.
So, neil, when does your storystart exactly?
Neil Laird (03:25):
love of travel and my and it actually in a way they
both love of travel, love ofhistory kind of happen the same
time.
The my other great love hasalways been filmmaking films.
I grew up as a nerdy kid inwestern pennsylvania with not
much to do, but I becameenamored early on of watching
the old classic movies thatlawrence arabian and seven
samurai and the good, the badand the ugly all these great
epics.
Whatever reason, I was drawn tothese exotic other worlds, so
(03:46):
much so that I went to filmschool.
I went to Temple University inPhiladelphia to get my Bachelor
of the Arts in filmmaking withnarrative films.
I got that after four years inthe 80s and then I zipped up to
New York thinking that I wouldbecome a famous filmmaker
overnight and that didn't happen.
I was a poor guy making sure noone stole the grip truck at two
in the morning while they'remaking some crappy horror film,
(04:08):
and like so many other people,living freelance and paycheck to
paycheck, with a lot of freetime in between, so having very
little to do and little money todo it, I started hanging out
the New York Public Library alot, just because it was free
and it was air conditioned.
And one day I picked up a bookoff the shelf about the rise of
early civilizations, somethingthat I had never got in my small
(04:29):
Catholic school back inGreensburg, pennsylvania, and it
was like a penny dropped.
I became so fascinated by thisunknown world and the rise of
civilization I just didn't know.
I resolved to teach myselfhistory through the New York
Public Library.
I read book after book afterbook and then I got to Egypt and
I really became stuck.
I became so fascinated by theancient Egyptians and the
(04:50):
pyramids and the tombs and howthey did it and how they did it
so early that I just said, screwthis, I'm tired of waiting for
the phone not to ring.
So I scraped up my pennies andI went to the Middle East.
And I backpacked to the MiddleEast for about eight or nine
months, went to all thosecountries in the Middle East,
and I backpacked to the MiddleEast for about eight or nine
months, went to all thosecountries in the Middle East and
just came back with my head inthe clouds and this was in the
(05:11):
early 90s by this point Ninety,ninety one, yeah, ok, and so you
have read so much that youcould be a historian Could do,
though you know, some peoplehave asked me, why aren't you an
archaeologist?
And I guess the argument therewould be that you know I'm not
smart enough to understand thescience and the three or four
languages behind it, what I amas a storyteller.
So yes, so yes, I could veryeasily be a story and historian.
And then when we jump ahead,but you know, when I decided to
(05:32):
write my first book, the naturalprogression would have been to
write a nonfiction history ofEgypt or Rome or Greece.
But I chose fiction because,after a quarter century of
telling those kinds of stories,I wanted to play and just kind
of mix things up a bit and justhave a bit of fun and bring this
cinematic sensibility that Iput aside for so long back into
(05:53):
my life.
Daniela SM (05:54):
So when you were reading in the library, you got
stuck in Egypt.
And then what happened?
Neil Laird (05:57):
Then I just again, I just backpacked.
I convinced a friend, a schoolteacher at the summer off to go
with me.
We flew to Egypt and did acruise and my eyes were just
wide open.
And then we did Israel togetheras well, and then he had to fly
home and then I backpackedthrough Turkey, iran, syria,
Jordan.
I actually came to Jordan.
I love that part of the worldand the people, the Arab
(06:18):
sensibility, the culture, theheat, the desert.
All those things speak to methat when I came back I had to
find a way to make that mycareer.
How can someone pay me to goback and do it again?
Because I can't afford to keepdoing this on my own dime.
Daniela SM (06:34):
When you were there, you were seeing the world in a
different way that maybe mosttravelers have, because you read
so much.
So what were you focusing on?
Neil Laird (06:39):
Certainly the ancient history, but again, I
was a 24-year-old kid orsomething.
So what's in a book and what isout there is two totally
different things.
I knew all about my Ramses theGreat versus my 18th dynasty and
19th dynasty, and I could tellyou when the Wailing Wall was
created and when Herod wasdestroyed.
But what made the trip soabsolutely gobsmackingly
(07:01):
memorable was the people and theplaces.
Because you can't get thatuntil you go there and, as any
first time traveler who'slistening knows, you get to see
who you are too.
When you're traveling, all youruncertainties and strengths and
insecurities come out and youhave to kind of deal with them
and figure out a way tonegotiate.
And this was back in the early80s or early 90s, before
internet and before anyone kindof helping you.
(07:24):
There's no phone calls.
So I just had my lonely planetand a fixed budget and I was
wandering around these placesand I just get on a train and
I'd show up in a small town inTurkey that hopefully I could
find a hotel that was open, andthat sense of freedom ultimately
became freedom.
I remember I was wanderingaround some town, I think it was
in the Iranian border.
I was working my way to Iran.
(07:45):
And I woke up one day and I'dmissed the train and I was stuck
for a few days in this tinysort of nothing town on the
Turkish Iranian border and Ijust started giggling and
laughing because I realized justno one knows where I am.
I'm totally free.
The only connection I have tomy life back in Chicago was my
passport and my ticket home,which wasn't for months and
(08:06):
months.
So I was anonymous and, ratherthan being afraid, I embraced it
.
It was so wonderful.
I was floating on air.
I was like, oh my God, it'slike here I am just exploring
the water on my own terms andmaking up as I go, and I think,
like many travelers who havewanderlust, I've been chasing
that feeling ever since.
Daniela SM (08:33):
The freedom right.
It's funny, I always had thatfeeling when I'm going to offer
my passport to leave.
I always felt that, oh my God,I am free, I can go anywhere.
So I know that feeling Right.
Neil Laird (08:43):
Suddenly it's a whole new world.
You know what's going to happen, right, and it's just you out
there doing it, and, yeah, andanyone who hasn't traveled again
, I think that'd be the moralcertainty of this episode is do
it, don't wait, just do it,because you get to see yourself.
This is not always easy, but,oh my God, it's like once you
dip your toes in that river youwant to feel that forever?
Daniela SM (09:06):
Yes, I know, traveling is not for everyone,
people like to control or to besafe and you know they don't
want to feel uncomfortable orthe things that are not familiar
.
Neil Laird (09:14):
Yeah, comfortable, yeah, you're absolutely right.
And again, if you know, if, if,if a Disney cruise is your
liking, or if going to Jamaica,that's all travel.
It's all up to you.
Certainly, I think once you doit, the more you'll probably
want to explore something alittle bit off the beaten path,
hopefully because you realizethe world isn't quite as
dangerous and ugly places theytell you it is.
Daniela SM (09:35):
I know, I know.
Neil Laird (09:36):
Certainly the American sensibility.
We know that the Arab world too.
I think part of the appealthough I didn't realize until
later was the Arab world growingup under Reagan and Thatcher
and the idea of terrorism wasthat it was totally verboten,
that you did not want to go to abunch of evil people who just
want to, you know, kidnap you orblow you up or something and
all these ugly stereotypes.
(09:56):
So part of that appeal, which Idon't understand what that
really was, was all the more eyeopening because, of course, the
exact opposite, the Arab peoplein the middle, they're among
the friendliest people.
I was invited into homesbecause I got lost or whatever.
And I remember one time I was inSyria and I missed a connecting
train because I did it allcheap, by train and the next one
wasn't for two or three daysand it's like, you know, I had
(10:19):
time but I didn't know where Iwas going and I was kind of down
.
It's like there really wasn'tany place to stay.
And then some old woman who wasat the market selling
watermelons, she saw me and shecame up and started talking to
me in Arabic and I don'tunderstand a word.
She just told me to wait, wait,wait.
Then she came back with her son, who spoke just a little bit of
English, and what they weresaying is the next train is
until Thursday.
It's Tuesday, come stay with us, come stay with us.
(10:48):
And this woman and her son tookme into their house and I
remember they had a goat in thebackyard which they were showing
off with great pride, and thatgoat disappeared before dinner
because they killed it andcooked it for me because I was
an honored guest in their house.
They were so touched that theywere able to do this and help us
, that hospitality.
This was a big thing for themand it wasn't looking for money,
it wasn't looking for anythingelse.
Clearly there was no politicsand we could barely speak, but
(11:09):
their one singular goat wasfelled because I missed a train.
I need a place to stay.
That's how open they were, andI often wonder if that happened
in my town of Greensburg,pennsylvania, would they be just
as generous to the Arabbackpackers?
Daniela SM (11:25):
I'm sorry, I feel so bad for the goat.
Neil Laird (11:29):
It was a damn good goat, though I got to say.
Daniela SM (11:33):
I work in a sport facility and this kid was
dropped by mistake to where Iwork, so he's supposed to be
going to the hospital.
He was coming from New Zealandand he got hurt because he
failed at the airport and heslept in our home and I told the
mom he was 19 years old.
That don't worry, we will takecare of your son.
(11:54):
And for me it was just anatural thing to do.
Like I have kids, I would lovefor my kids to be taken care of
like that If I travel.
I would love people to do thisto me.
So for me it's just like thenormal thing.
Neil Laird (12:07):
It's such a wonderful thing and I wonder why
we are trained not to, whywe're trained to fear.
Certainly the media, which I'mpart of, you know as a thing,
but again you did absolutely thenatural thing, which is like
here's someone in need, you know, you have a house.
It's like the person doesn'tfeel dangerous.
Yet I think we are brainwashedin a way to think that anything
for and anything outside of usis a threat.
Daniela SM (12:27):
Yeah.
So I was telling the story to afriend and they were like we
will never do such thing and Ihad to kind of justify my
behavior and I'm like this isjust the right thing to do.
There was no question about itfor me.
What?
Neil Laird (12:41):
was their argument.
Why did they say it was thewrong thing?
Merely because of safety.
Daniela SM (12:49):
Oh yeah, question about it for me.
What was their argument?
Why did they?
Neil Laird (12:50):
say it was the wrong thing Merely because of safety.
Oh yeah, we don't put strangersin our house.
Anyway, it was a veryinteresting evening.
Well, I mean, I think it's wiseto say I'm glad you said
something, because I thinkpeople do kind of gently maybe
put in their place, because Ithink it's very easy to stay in
those traps of what the rest ofthe world.
They don't even have to be aforeigner.
It could be somebody wanderinghere from Wisconsin or whatever,
where you assume anything is athreat and people need to be
called out a bit about thatstuff, because there's much more
good in the world than there isbad.
Daniela SM (13:12):
There is, of course, and traveling, all your
experiences.
What else?
What happened?
What happened next?
Neil Laird (13:18):
Well then I was successful enough.
I went to grad school and Imade a thesis film about the
great sphinx of Egypt, which Iabsolutely adore.
That, and a friend of mine'sfather, luckily, was an
antiquities board in Egypt, sohe helped me get some permits
for free, and things that werevery to shoot in Egypt is so
expensive.
You put your tripods on thesand and it costs you ten
(13:38):
thousand pounds or something.
It's super crazy so I couldn'tafford it otherwise.
Crazy so I couldn't afford itotherwise.
But because of my friend'sfather, a geologist who worked
in Cairo, I was able to followthe stonemasons who were
restoring the Great Sphinx ofEgypt.
This was now the mid-90s.
The Sphinx had been terriblyeroded and they did a botched
job.
The Italians did a botched job.
They hired these Italianengineers to do it and it made
(13:59):
the Sphinx worse.
And the Sphinx was actuallyalmost like shedding its skin.
The blocks they put on it werefalling off and it was in a
terrible shape.
So the Egyptian governmentwisely figured well, the only
way to save this is to figureout how they did it originally,
which of course is hard four anda half thousand years later.
But what they did is they hireda bunch of local stone masons
who understood the ancientEgyptian craft to come in local
(14:20):
Egyptians to shore it up andrestore it.
And I was able to get there andrecord this their story.
While they did it and I wasclimbing all the Sphinx with
them, going into the secretpassageways and the rump of the
Sphinx I went home with one ofthe stone masons got dysentery
that knocked me out for a weekbut it was still worth it and I
was able to make that film andthen I sold it to Discovery
(14:41):
Channel.
This is 1997.
It was also my thesis film ingrad school, so that shot me
right into the business.
I kind of skipped all the stepsand went right into making
those kind of films all in oneswoop and then since then I've
been making films.
Daniela SM (14:54):
I've been to over 70 countries, made over a thousand
hours but how do you learn tomake films where I was in the,
in the well?
Neil Laird (15:01):
you make a lot of mistakes.
The first, the first cut, wasterrible.
Actually, I had another greatexperience I had that really
helped both sell it and helpedme shape.
It was at the time I wasinterning and this is Chicago
where I went to grad school andI was interning a place called
Cartemquin Films, which is stillaround, and a wonderful outfit
of filmmakers independent outfitof filmmakers, who do a lot of
(15:25):
social work and stuff, andthey're working on a film that
maybe you remember the titlecalled hoop dreams, which was a
huge documentary that came outin 1994 and no one thought it
was going to be a anything andthen suddenly became what an
oscar and became a seminal filmof the 90s.
And they were following twoblack kids in the ghettos of
chicago who wanted to becomebasketball stars, who had hoop
dreams, and for seven years theyfollowed these kids.
(15:52):
These two filmmakers fromUniversity of Illinois just
believed in it and when I cameon board as an assistant editor
they had 250 hours and didn'tknow what to do with this thing,
but they kept shaping it andshaping and shaping it and what
appeared?
I watched these two filmmakerscraft this thing and how to edit
in post.
A lot of editing in documentaryis not scripted like like a film
.
You don't have a script or ablueprint.
(16:13):
You may have a few things youwant when you go in the field,
but basically you're winging itand then you have thousands of
hours of footage or hundreds ofhours of footage, and then you
make sense of it in post, in inedit, and that's what they were
doing.
So I had the best perch towatch a story emerge, you know,
like Michelangelo finding theDavid out of a hunk of granite.
(16:34):
In there slowly came out thiswonderful film, and it was just
this beautiful, beautiful film.
And I was also fortunate that Ibecame close with one of the
filmmakers, so he lent his nameto my film to help me get it
sold to Learning Channel, butalso there as a mentor.
Frederick Marks is his name andhe was there every step of the
(16:55):
way, giving me guidance andlending his name and doing all
the wheeling and dealing for us,but letting me step back and
make the film myself, and Icertainly made tons of mistakes.
Daniela SM (17:05):
Do you have to have a talent too?
Neil Laird (17:06):
I believe.
So I like to think yeah, I meanit's.
Look, it's not for everybody.
Filmmaking is tough, not justbeing in the field.
People always think how exoticyou're out there, can I carry
your bags?
And you have to go out thereand find the stories
Interviewing.
You know, for most of my lifeI've been on your side of things
.
I've been doing the interviews,listening and trying to find
the best performance or beststories within somebody and
(17:26):
getting them to feel comfortable.
And then going back and findingwhat the spine of the film is
is storytelling.
And it's, yes, it's a craft,but it's also, I think, in many
ways innate.
I think I've seen a lot offilmmakers don't quite get it
and other people just take to itlike that.
For me the hard part was justtrying to understand the craft
and putting it together.
I was a 24, 25 kid in my firstfilm, but certainly over time it
(17:49):
becomes better and better and Ihad a real aptitude for it.
I still do.
I'm still making films fortelevision.
That has been my career sincethe mid-90s.
So absolutely, it's talent aswell as repetition.
Daniela SM (18:03):
And so then you made this movie and you sent it to
Discovery Channel, and it was ahit.
Neil Laird (18:07):
The film did well enough.
I think they didn't know quitewhat to do with it, because I
think I'm happy with what I did.
But in a way I focused too muchon the Egyptians and not on the
archaeologists and the whitepeople, so I think it might have
turned some of the viewers offat the time.
Some of the reviews saying Iwould like to know more about,
you know, the archaeologists,not the stonemasons.
So I'm glad I did that, becausethese are people that were the
(18:27):
story.
But what the film did it was agateway to allow me to keep
doing it again.
Then I did one on Stonehengeand spent time with druids, and
then in one of the KnightsTemplar and I was up in Scotland
and then I became a shipwreckguy and I went to Malta and the
Middle East again and then wenton Ankerwatt and Burma.
I just became that guy BecauseSaving the Sphinx did well
(18:50):
enough and it was a unique story.
No one had told a story aboutthe restoration before.
So the access helped too and,like you said, understanding the
history helps me sell it andwrite the story and develop it
and pitch it.
So I knew the craft ofstorytelling and I knew the
history and how to bind the two.
Daniela SM (19:05):
So Discovery Channel gave you the opportunity to
make movies.
They were supporting you.
Neil Laird (19:10):
Correct.
They funded the film.
Okay, the way it works is atleast.
Back then I was a DiscoveryChannel executive, you know,
full circle for 12 years.
I just left that job lastsummer, came back to that world,
but at that point I was aproducer who had a pitch tape.
I went and I shot 15 minutes ofit.
And then my friend atCartumquin he went to the
network and pitched it and saysif you give us I forget how much
(19:33):
, it was $400,000, we will giveyou an hour documentary based on
this concept and then Discoveryfunds it and they own it and
then they send you off and thenyou know, you make it, you give
it to the network and they helpyou shape it and then they air
it.
So it's a Discovery projectthat I was hired for, but I did
all the creative work in thefield.
Daniela SM (19:52):
Wow Interesting, and so you worked with them until
now.
Neil Laird (19:56):
That was the 90s.
I mean I was a freelanceproducer on the production side
for 10 years working for BBC.
I eventually got hired as anexecutive producer for the
network.
So I became the guy, not whomade it, but the guy who was
giving me notes.
Back in the 90s I now becamethat guy that you would come to
(20:17):
me with a project and pitch it.
We would give you the money.
Then I would be your contact,your boss at the network.
I would look at your scripts,your treatments, and that's what
I did for the last 15 years.
I was an EP on the network.
Oh wow, 15 years.
Daniela SM (20:29):
I was an EP on the network.
Oh wow, and how was the switch?
Because you.
Neil Laird (20:35):
I'm not creating anymore.
It's a very good question.
It's a very astute questionbecause it's a different kind of
creation, because I started togo in there and look at the
script and see what was workingand why it wasn't working.
I would take their rough cutand offer notes.
You can't just simply say it'sbad, make it better.
There's some EPs have certainlydone that.
You have to know what you'redoing and you have to understand
how to make it work.
A lot of the stuff thing aboutdocumentary, as we talked
earlier, is since there is noscript, sometimes the opening
(20:59):
bite is in the wrong place, oryour thesis is the wrong place,
or your lead is buried in thethird act and not the first.
So it's really hard to tellwhen you're in the weeds making
it.
But as an exec who madehundreds and hundreds of hours
by the end of it I could look ata script or a cut and I can
tell you in one viewing oh, movethis here, move that there.
(21:21):
This bite is here, create thatcharacter.
It just becomes an intuitive,intuitive thing after over all
the years.
But you're right, thecreativity is far less.
I have my fingerprints onthousands of hours of shows, but
they're not mine, they're thepeople.
When I made them, I made my 30or 40 hours or whatever in the
field and then I oversaw entireseries so I'd be looking at 100
hours in any given month orwhatever.
(21:42):
I did Shark Week which is a bigthing on Discovery for like
seven years or something, whereI would have eight or nine shows
I was watching just that weekand then giving notes.
So you can't make them theirown, you have to create them,
get them ready for network andthen send them back out.
And why that was rewarding?
Because it highly tuned mywriting skills.
It's exactly why I startedgetting itchy feet about being
(22:04):
creative again, which is why Istarted writing novels in my
spare time, because I wanted toown something again was in my
spare time, because I wanted toown something again.
I wanted to get back in there,get my hands dirty and create
something from scratch and bethe one who's vitally making
something important from theget-go, which you really can't
do with the network because youcome in too late, it's already
somebody else's baby.
Daniela SM (22:23):
Uh-huh, you say, in your spare time, was it such a
thing?
Neil Laird (22:26):
It's funny, you know it's a good question, because
an EPA network works their buttoff, I know, and sometimes
weekends and stuff.
But what's amazing is when youbecome passionate or obsessed, I
would say, about something, youfind the time.
I would set my alarm for 5 amand I would make two pots of
coffee and I would write everyday until 9.30, 10 am when the
(22:48):
notes started coming in fromDiscovery, and then every
Saturday I would give up mySaturday morning much to my
husband to sugar in sometimesand I'd write till one or two in
the afternoon and I just becametotally focused on the writing
and it was time.
I thought I didn't have.
It was there.
You just have to give up.
You got to sleep a little less,you got to go to bed a little
(23:09):
earlier.
The time is there.
If you want something, you canalways find the time is there.
If you want something, you canalways find the time.
Daniela SM (23:14):
So I did all that by juggling a full-time job, wow
Okay, holidays.
And so what happened then?
When did you decide?
Okay, it's enough now ofjuggling.
I want to focus on one thing.
Neil Laird (23:22):
Well, I mean, I was.
I'm still in the business andthe only reason I'm not at
Discovery is because of thebusiness, not because of me.
Just network television in theUS and the UK and Europe as well
is going through a sea change.
It's constricting dramaticallyand so many of all the streaming
services.
Two years ago, warner Brothersand Discovery Channel merged in
a $44 billion merge, so it's thebiggest merger ever.
(23:43):
So entire networks, includingmy network, science Channel,
went away and me and severalother I think 800 of us were let
go last summer.
They just let go another 800last week Discovery Channel.
So the business is gettingsmaller.
They're making less hours andtherefore they need less
creative people and less peoplein the network to watch the
shows.
So I was let go because theresimply was no money.
(24:06):
They were trying to save money.
So I'm back in the freelanceworld.
The first thing I did when I gotmy severance is well, I'm going
to write another book.
I rented a villa in Sorrento forabout a month because I've
always wanted to write a bookabout Pompeii.
So I wrote the sequel to thebook that's already out
Primetime Pompeii and I just sat, got a little villa and it was
just two train stops away fromPompeii, one of my favorite
(24:27):
places Get up in the morning andI would write, and then I would
get on the train and go lookaround Pompeii and take notes
and come back and write somemore and then go for a swim and
go to bed.
So that's the luxury of thewriter.
Now that I'm a freelancer again, I'm going to Turkey to write
primetime Troy, but now I'm offthe clock, so you kind of have
lots of time, but what you missis obviously the cash coming in
(24:47):
from the networks.
So I have to balance that outby making more shows.
So when I come back I have aproject set up for History
Channel which I'll jump on forsix months and then go back and
forth and try to find thatbalance.
Daniela SM (24:59):
Is no retirement for you, so you still want to work
or you have to work.
Neil Laird (25:03):
Both, I suppose I mean theoretically.
I guess I could go off and livemodestly somewhere.
But no, I still enjoytelevision and, I think, also
books.
My first book, primetimeTravelers, is out now.
It's on Amazon and it's a smallindependent press and I'll be
lucky to make the money back.
I'm not going to become StephenKing overnight.
There's not a lot of cash inbeing a novelist.
(25:25):
It's probably the second mostridiculous career choice after
being a TV producer in terms ofmonetary gain.
So you got to stick to your dayjob.
If I was able to just writefull time, absolutely If I could
write my novels I got so manyideas of novels, I got the
series going.
I'm on my third one.
I had three other novels that Icouldn't get an agent for
(25:45):
sitting in a drawer, so they'reready to go.
I'm a very quick, passionatewriter and if I could do that
full time, if I could buy aplace in the eastern
Mediterranean overlooking theBay of Naples or whatever, and
just write my novels, that wouldbe my first choice.
But I'm not sure that lifestyleis within reach right now.
Daniela SM (26:03):
Oh, wow, Wow.
But so you're so creative.
It's incredible.
What else in your life iscreative for you, Like you know
the film, the writing.
What else in your life iscreative for you, Like you know,
the film, the writing.
Neil Laird (26:13):
Is there an extra hobby that you have?
The writing certainly was thehobby To your question where did
you find the time?
My hobby was writing novels,you know at 8, you know at night
, on a Saturday or whatever.
I mean.
Travel still impels me, pushesme forward, and one of the
things that I've been doing likethe characters in the primetime
books, because I can create myown characters One thing I've
always wanted to do, andsomething that I saw so much
when I traveled both to theMiddle East but also reading
(26:35):
about ancient history is being agay man and understanding how
the LGBTQ life was so differentback in the day where, in many
ways, ancient worlds like Egypt,greece and Rome, they were more
free.
It was easier to be gay andqueer because there was no label
for it.
So a lot of that happened withthe rise of Christianity and the
question of you know us versusthem.
(26:57):
Not only are my characters gay.
When they go back, like in thesecond book, the camera woman is
a lesbian.
She falls in love with someonein Pompeii.
In the first book, my leadcharacter falls in love with a
Nubian guard in Egypt.
I want to make very positivestories about gay life then and
now.
So another hobby tied in withmy book is I do a series of
TikTok and Instagram videos ongay history Me talking about
(27:19):
Emperor Hadrian or Julius Caesaror mythology, or the first
transsexuals in history whichwere Mesopotamian priests in
ancient Iraq and I just kind oftell these little stories and
try to edify and educate peoplein a kind of a fun, simple way,
because I think that's somethingthat as a historian, as a gay
man who's traveled the world, Ihave that perspective that many
other people don't.
Daniela SM (27:38):
When you mentioned that before, I was concerned.
Like when you go to othercountries where it's illegal to
be gay.
How do you handle that?
Neil Laird (27:45):
I mean, it's a very good question because you have
to mind your P's and Q's andobviously any kind of of.
Even in very conservativecountries I think of iran, or I
think of syria, egypt in manyregards, once you've got the
touristy bits, even straightcouples need to sort of like, be
careful.
Acts of kissing or whatever,regardless of gender, are
frowned upon, but certainly,being gay, I've never had any
(28:07):
incidents of violent homophobiaor or anything that was strong.
Partially, partially because Ithink there's a double standard
in many of those places where ifyou're a tourist, they leave
you alone.
They know you're leaving in afortnight, you're just coming
through.
They want your money in a way,and also it's a different
culture.
Most of the Egyptians and theSyrians or whatever, they
respect that.
I don't usually share thatinformation because you don't
(28:27):
know how people are going torespond.
You know, I was in West Africain many ways it's even more
homophobic and I was there witha friend of a friend and he
picked me up at the airport.
I was going to stay with him.
He started railing against gaymarriage, which just passed, and
how disgusting it was and howObama, who had passed it, was
going to rot in hell.
It's like, oh wow, okay, youdon't.
So I just shut my mouth anddidn't talk about that, because
(28:49):
I'm in their culture, I am intheir country, I'm not going to
change an entire people orchange, you know, entire
religion.
So sometimes you have to walklightly.
What I do find, more than anykind of oppression against me,
is repression from them,particularly when I travel alone
, which is a lot.
I get hit on all the time byguys in the park in a very sort
(29:09):
of just levacious or almost youknow, sort of like.
They don't know what they'redoing.
They're doing it very badly too, but I think it's because of
the sexual repression of beinggay there.
They figure they can hit on someWesterner, some decadent
Westerner coming through for aweek because they can't do it at
the mosque or they can't do itat home.
There's no real residue.
If you do it with somebodywho's gone, they can still
hopefully get through.
And I find that so deeply sadbecause you know these people
(29:32):
are living a double life andthese people are so desperate
for that kind of affection andyou know what they would get
from a stranger in the park isnot what they really need.
You know they need love andtenderness and all that kind of
stuff that goes with true love.
The society won't allow them todo that, so there's just many
repressed gay guys living inthis part of the world that will
never come out, because they'rethe ones who are in more danger
(29:52):
than me.
I fly back to Manhattan.
They stay, yeah.
Daniela SM (29:55):
You learned about the freedom that they had in the
past?
You know, because you say therewere no labels, just by reading
it or just assuming, or howWell, don't you see?
Neil Laird (30:05):
it.
You see it?
I mean certainly I talked toarchaeologists and Egyptologists
or whoever and they're thehistory On my very first trip,
and I've told this in a coupleother podcasts who ask about gay
life.
But I think it always bearsrepeating is, even though at
that point I was, if I was out Idon't know if I was out or not,
I think it was just coming outbut certainly I was trying to
understand my place in the worldand homosexuality's place in
(30:26):
the world and it went to Saqqara, which is one of my favorite
archaeological sites south ofCairo the Great Step Pyramid.
If you ever see the Step Pyramid, it's the oldest pyramid, four
and a half thousand years old,and there's a very elite
graveyard there that was madefor the richest of the rich, of
the pharaoh, so long ago, fourmillennia ago.
So anyone who could be buriedthere already was sanctioned by
(30:47):
the pharaoh and by thegovernment.
They were the best of the best,and there's a tomb there called
the Tomb of the Brothers, whichis a ridiculous title I'll talk
about in a minute, but when yougo in there it's so very clear
that it's a same-sex couple, twomen that were buried side by
side and they have sarcophaginext to each other and the place
is just a delight of frescoesof these two men holding hands,
(31:08):
touching nose to nose, which isthe Egyptian form of kissing,
fishing, dancing, spending timetogether.
It clearly was a queer couplethat the government thought it
was okay for them to be buriedtogether and they were out and
proud.
Now they didn't say that.
You know, at no point did hesay marriage, because back then
those kind of things there wasno name for it.
So whether it was saying, oh,that's our gay friends, or
(31:30):
whether you said these two guysare in love, but here is a
celebration of this life ofthese two rich, elite men four
and a half thousand years ago.
Clearly, at the time it wasaccepted.
It's called Tomb of theBrothers because when it was
found in 1964 by archaeologists,the homophobia was so ripe it
couldn't possibly be two gayguys.
It had to have been twobrothers.
There was one theory, even morecrackpot, that said well, it may
(31:53):
not be brothers, perhaps theywere Siamese twins, and that's
why they're so close together.
That's why they're nose to nose, because physically they can't
move away from it.
That's how far people bend overin their homophobia to dismiss
the fact that this was a naturallove between two men who just
decided to go off into thedo-what the field of, between
two men who just decided to gooff into the Duat, the Fjord of
(32:14):
Reeds, together for eternity.
It's a wonderful story and yetit's buried.
So you have to look deep so youknow.
When you start looking around,you go to Rome, which is in
Pompeii, and you see a lot ofgay icons there and in the Roman
world.
They all had a different.
There was no real name for itbecause, again, it was something
that was very, very common.
There were certain roles.
Later on, the Romans startedsaying the man who was the
(32:35):
active partner, you know, in sexwas a man, but the one who was
a passive partner was not, youknow.
So that kind of stuff startedcreeping in in terms of
masculinity and femininity.
But beyond that, you could lovewhoever you want, have sex
whoever you wanted with, andthose are the stories that you
see time and time again in theseearly cultures, where it wasn't
until later, where it wasdecided by priests or imams or
(32:57):
whoever else, that, oh, you'regoing straight to hell for this
kind of thinking.
That is a modern interpretationof same-sex love.
Daniela SM (33:05):
And I don't really think it's going to change very
time soon.
Neil Laird (33:08):
No, no, I mean certainly.
I mean we won't talk aboutcurrent politics here, but yeah,
I think the pendulum isswinging back.
But, conversely, here I ammarried to my husband, which I
didn't expect to happen.
We were legally married andhave been since 2011, when it
became legal.
So things do march forward.
What people say when they canhide and what they say when
they're in front of you.
You know, I've been to theSouth, which you assume is much
(33:34):
more homophobic and certainly is, I think, because it's much
more Christian.
With my husband no, we don't goout of our way, but we're
clearly two men.
He's Black as well, so it's aBlack and white guy coming
together and we walk into asmall town in Tennessee and the
waitress knows pretty quicklywe're a couple.
They usually smile and they sayI've never felt that kind of
thing.
So I think what people see whenthey see you face to face is
very different.
What they say when they canhide.
(33:59):
I made the mistake a fascinatingeye opening.
I won't say it's a mistake, butit certainly was eye opener.
When I started advertising myfirst book, primetime Travelers,
a friend said oh well, you'redoing ads on Facebook, you
should boost it, which means youjust get it out there and
anybody can see it, so it's notjust your friends or your family
or people in your groups.
It goes out.
I'm not sure how the algorithmworks, but it goes out.
So all these gay videos I didone on transgenders in
Mesopotamia, which I mentioned,and I think one on maybe Emperor
(34:21):
Hadrian who had a beautifullover, young lover it went out
and it went all these people whowere just full of homophobia
and hate, and I got the ugliest,most insulting, hateful,
personal responses about me inthe videos and it was just this
down and dirty nastiness, alwaysfrom anonymous people or some
guy that could be anybody that'shiding.
(34:41):
It's easy to throw stones whenyou can hide behind the parapet
afterwards.
It's a double standard.
I think a lot of what'shappening with homophobia and
with politics everything else isan anonymity where you can hide
among the crowd.
But again, face to face.
I want to test that everywhere.
I really haven't had any ofthat kind of stuff either in the
States or in the Middle East orAsia or whatever.
It's pretty clear that we are agay couple, but in most cases
(35:04):
they still serve our dinner witha smile.
Daniela SM (35:07):
I feel like when they see you, they see the human
.
Then people, when they're notwatching or looking at the human
, they just have an opinion.
Neil Laird (35:15):
Precisely, precisely , because it's no longer looking
at the individual.
It's now just a polemic ratherthan the person.
Daniela SM (35:21):
One story is like we were in the car and my kids
were small and one of the bestfriends of my son is Asian and
one of the other friends saysthese Chinese people?
And he said I don't know what.
And then he turns to her friendand said but you're okay, cause
you're a friend.
Neil Laird (35:36):
Precisely, there is hypocrisy right there right.
Daniela SM (35:43):
Yeah, yeah.
Neil Laird (35:44):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly.
Daniela SM (35:44):
Because that's what we, we always.
Neil Laird (35:46):
You put it in generalized, you say things and
I'm like, oh, but you knowyou're okay, cause you're my
friend, Right, people alwayslike to, you know.
Perhaps if they say somethingyou know anti-black, you know in
front of my husband, oranti-gay, in front of both of us
, but some of my best friendsare black, some of my best
friends are gay, so but they'reokay, it's just the rest of the
culture that I don't like, youknow.
So it's like it's a verystrange thing.
I think it's fear and I thinkit's following the crowd.
(36:06):
And until once, once again, tobring it back to travel and the
positive.
You cannot backpack to themiddle east.
You cannot see the world andcome back, be the same person
about these places.
You, you know, you've been ininner cambodia and someone's
helped you out in a rainstorm,or you're in a poor village in
india and they take you and theygive you a bed.
You will not think aboutindians and cambodians the same
(36:27):
way because you looked them inthe eye yes, exactly, but at the
end we're just humans, reallyfoolish.
Daniela SM (36:33):
You know, my grandmother was from venezuela,
but she had some indigenous,some black maybe according to my
dna, we don't know, you know,and when she came to vancouver,
people sometimes thought thatshe was asian because she was
short, and so we talked to herin chinese, and then I will see
pictures of indigenous fromMexico and indigenous here, and
(36:55):
I'm like they are so similar.
Neil Laird (36:57):
We are so similar that there is, you know, just
change on physicality we all areand I don't understand why we
some to think it's an us versusthem everywhere you go, or like
they're just strange and howthey do college.
That's what I love about travelagain is the culture.
It's like you've been to aNubian wedding.
You say it's so different thanmy own, but how wonderful it is.
(37:17):
They have their own culture andlearn from it, rather than
saying, oh, when I would do this, I wouldn't do that.
Yes, who cares?
Who cares?
You still do.
People getting married.
Daniela SM (37:32):
For me it's important how you behave.
I mean you tend to generalize.
Neil Laird (37:33):
I grew up in a Latin country and when somebody's
late, you're like a typicalLatin.
Of course, we all do that.
We all do that, and there'ssome truth to stereotypes,
clearly you know.
But again, your story abouttaking that kid in, it's like
that's exactly what you shoulddo.
It's just somebody in need andthat kid could have been black,
white, asian, gay, it didn'tmatter, right, it was just
somebody who just needed a placeto stay.
There could be more of that inthe world.
I don't know.
There certainly is ugliness outthere, but I do think that the
(37:53):
best way to face it is toliterally face it person to
person and you say, oh yeah,they're just like me.
Daniela SM (38:00):
So, neil, how many books in total have you written
so far?
Neil Laird (38:03):
I've published one, primetime Travelers, and then
Primetime Pompeii.
The second one comes out in thefall, when I get back from
Turkey.
I'll release that.
And then Prime Time Troy, whichI start writing, hopefully will
come out next year.
Then I have two or three othersin a shelf which I'll figure
out how to publish them when thetime comes.
Daniela SM (38:21):
And at the meantime, you're doing TikTok videos even
though people are sending hatemessages.
Neil Laird (38:28):
Well, I stopped doing that.
Most of the people are veryembracing and I found a
wonderful community on Facebook.
There's a thing called MM Maleto Male Adventure and Romance.
I didn't even know MM stood foranything until I started
getting into publishing andthese people just absolutely
adore anything that has strongmale characters that are gay,
and they have been wonderful.
They gave me great reviews onAmazon.
They've shared it with peopleand that's a key thing.
(38:49):
If anybody here is listening,is interested and read the book,
you know you can get on amazonbut also leave a review on
amazon or goodreads, because thealgorithm is very much about
the more reviews you get.
The higher you go up there, themore noticeability you get, and
it's always great to getreviews from all walks of life,
not just the gay space or thefantasy space or whatever else,
just to get people from acrossdifferent, different uh walks of
(39:12):
life, because that helps thevisibility rise.
Daniela SM (39:15):
Are you talking only about gay men, or men in
general as well?
Neil Laird (39:18):
Oh, no, no.
The premise of the book Ishould probably say all the
books.
The series is a film crew, muchlike what I work with, a TV
film crew that discovers aportal to ancient Egypt and two
of them are gay and two of themare not.
There's a host, an IndianaJones-like host, which is a
parody.
The lead director, his camerawoman they're gay.
And then Ali, the sound guyfrom Cairo, he's straight and
(39:39):
they meet different people.
So it's not a gay book.
It's a book that somebody hasgay characters in it.
At the end of the day, it's anadventure.
It's a time travel IndianaJones adventure that just
happened to have gay charactersin it.
Indiana Jones adventure thatjust happened to have gay
characters in it.
So it was on some hot and heavy, spicy romance kind of thing.
You know, it definitely is fora general audience, but it's
very pro LGBTQ.
Daniela SM (39:58):
What I want to get out is like you are also your
male characters.
Women have been talking a lotabout women's stuff, and so men
have lost a little bit of theirspot in the world, and so I was
wondering if you are helpingwith that in a way that I don't
know.
Neil Laird (40:14):
It's certainly started looking for an agent and
started publishing.
That you know being a whitemale is.
You know our days are numbered.
You know we had a good run andnow it's like a chance for the
women and other minorities who,rightly, can think so being a
white male was, was, you know,not not the thing of the moment.
My being gay helped me kind ofhave a different perspective and
(40:35):
that's what became moreinteresting.
This is just a different way tokind of tell the Indiana Jones
story.
The new twist more interesting.
This is just a different way tokind of tell the Indiana Jones
story with a new twist.
So I don't think I have amission in terms of saying it's
any kind of one character tryingto boost the masculinity,
because you know the leadcharacter, jared, he's gay but
he's also the leader to becomestronger by the second book,
pompeii is very much a leader.
So you know it's just people,like you said talking about
(40:57):
earlier.
They're just people who, of thecrew, there's one straight
white guy, then there's a blackwoman who's lesbian from the
bronx, there's ali the sound guy, a conservative muslim, and
then there's jared from kansaswho's gay and comes out.
So it's a mix of people andthen they go back in time and
they meet centurions and andgladiators or whatever else.
So I try to bring all thosepeople together and try to make
(41:19):
them all come to life as realpeople wow, but the imagination
is incredible and also thepsychology in there, because
you're putting so manycomplications in each
personality yes, yeah, but a lot.
But you need complicationsbecause it allows you to dig
deeper into the character.
So, like ali, the sound personin the second book, he in his
(41:40):
second, first book, he kind ofthe second.
He's, you know, the localegyptian guy who's oh, let's get
the arab guy who, like he,thinks he knows everything you
know because he'll save us money.
But in the second book, whenthey go to pompeii, he's an
outsider too.
So it's him trying to grab himwith his own point of history.
So he becomes hell-bent onsaving the artifacts from
pompeii, the manuscripts,because he recognizes,
recognizes, being Egyptian, howimportant it is to have these
(42:01):
relics and how important it isto save these things for
posterity.
So his mission through all thebooks now will be to help
preserve stuff that has lost tohistory, and that is his through
line.
So Ali has that, and then eachone of them has a different
story that hopefully followsthroughout.
So you need those complexitiesbecause that's where the tension
comes from and that's where thecharacter growth comes from.
Daniela SM (42:23):
But you have to have this enormous capability of
going from one character toanother.
So how is that?
Neil Laird (42:30):
And you have to know them.
And it's something again Ilearned it's interesting when I
started writing my first book,which all took place in ancient
Egypt.
The plot points came easy thecause and effect, the
cliffhangers, all the stuff thatI brought from television with
six acts and commercials, youknow, keeping a story moving.
What was hard for me was thatinternal life, because as a
documentary filmmaker, I'm doingwhat you're doing right now.
(42:52):
You're interviewing people andyou're getting the emotion from
somebody else.
Then you cut it in later and sothey give that to you.
When you're a novelist, it'sjust me.
So I have to know who Jared isand I have to know who Kara and
Ali the sound guy is andunderstand them.
And that took me a long time toscratch away the surface and
figure out who they were.
It took me many, many drafts.
(43:12):
The plot came very easily for me, all the drama and the
cliffhanger stuff.
I have a strong gift for that.
What I had to learn is almostlike a second language was that
internal life and who they are.
And until you figure that out,a book doesn't work.
People don't read a book justbecause of the adventure.
They read it because they careabout those characters and they
(43:34):
worry about those characters andthey want to spend time with
those characters and one of themdies.
You want them to shout outbecause that means you're
invested not just in the factthat you're stealing a mummy
horde from Egypt, but it's abunch of people that you want to
be with that are stealing amummy horde from.
Daniela SM (43:49):
Egypt.
Yeah, that's why sometimes Ihave issues reading, because I
get into the character and thenI forget they're my realities.
Yeah.
Neil Laird (43:56):
Isn't it great.
It's a wonderful gift.
Daniela SM (43:57):
Yeah, but I'm not even a writer, so I just wonder
how it could be for you to haveall these characters and then
who are you?
Neil Laird (44:06):
at the end you're well, I do style, I do look at
that.
That's why you're asking mequestions about me.
It's like I'm not nearly asinteresting as the characters I
create.
I'm just a guy that just opensmy mouth and I put my fingers
down and then suddenly they doall the work in my head yeah,
but but all of this is in yourhead.
It is in my head.
Yeah, exactly.
Daniela SM (44:22):
You are the artist.
That's amazing.
Yeah, wow, that's fantastic,and so you're leaving soon to
Turkey.
Neil Laird (44:29):
Yeah, I fly Friday night to south of Turkey along
the Aegean, a small town calledBusburn, which have a tiny villa
and again, it's overlookingsome Greek ruins and it's near
the shore and a great sunset.
I'm going to go there and justspend a month and wander the
ruins and swim and then rideevery day and wander around Troy
and other ruin sites and justkind of be inspired there and
(44:51):
hopefully I'll come back with avery sloppy, rudimentary first
draft.
That's the goal.
Daniela SM (44:56):
Wonderful, great.
Thank you so much, neil, forsharing your story and for
letting me be in your world.
It was fascinating.
Neil Laird (45:03):
It was my pleasure.
Thank you for reaching out.
It was fantastic.
I'm glad you want to spend timein my crazy head.
Daniela SM (45:08):
Yes, wonderful, have a wonderful trip.
And it's very successful forthe books as well, thank you,
and we will put everything inthe show notes, of course, for
people to reach out and buy yourbook and get to know more about
Neil.
Neil Laird (45:21):
Yeah, I mean and obviously you know, since it's a
series, as I tell anyone whoreads the book, this is ongoing
characters.
If you do read it and go to thewebsite and reach out and tell
me what you like about them,what you don't like them, where
you want to see them go next,because hearing from the readers
is so important when you'recreating characters that keep
coming back.
I'd love to know exactly whothey like and who they don't
(45:44):
like and where they want to gonext, because that helps inspire
me as I move forward.
Give it a good review and, youknow, reach out on neolaircom
and, you know, get on themailing list or reach out and
just say hey, you know I loveJared.
I'd love to see Jared go to theRenaissance next, or how come
Jared did this?
I really want to see that.
Whatever it is, it's all open.
Yes, great, just, you know,reach out because you know it's
an ongoing adventure.
(46:09):
Yes, and I would like everybodyto follow you on the social
media, right?
So what is your social media?
Yeah, I mean so you can go toNeolaird Author on Facebook or
you can go to TikTok and see thegay videos, which also has
other videos it's gay underscorehistory.
And one thing I'll be doingfrom Turkey is I'll be posting
regular videos every day aboutwriting my book in Turkey and
showing it around and kind ofshowing that world around too,
so you can kind of follow me insort of real time writing the
next book.
Daniela SM (46:29):
Okay, perfect, all right.
Thank you so much All right?
Neil Laird (46:32):
Thanks so much for having me Cheers.
Daniela SM (46:35):
I hope you enjoyed today's episode.
I am Daniela and you arelistening to, because Everyone
has a Story.
Please take five seconds rightnow and think of somebody in
your life that may enjoy whatyou just heard, or someone that
has a story to be shared andpreserved.
When you think of that person,shoot them a text with the link
(46:55):
of this podcast.
This will allow the ordinarymagic to go further.
Join me next time for anotherstory conversation.
Thank you for listening.
Hasta pronto.
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