What does it mean to truly belong? When Casey lost her father at 11, her mother at 12, and her brother at 20, she began a lifelong search for family. Through this journey, she realized that what she was truly seeking was a sense of belonging, which would shape everything that followed. I find this conversation about her new memoir, "The Full Catastrophe: All I Ever Wanted, Everything I Feared," to be deeply moving. Her story explores how grief can coexist with joy and how true belonging differs from merely fitting in.
Casey Mulligan Walsh is an author nominated for Best of the Net. She is a founding editor of In a Flash literary magazine and serves as an ambassador for the Family Heart Foundation, which has impacted her family across generations. Casey lives in upstate New York with her husband, Kevin, and has more books than she can count.
• Losing her entire family at a young age—father at 11, mother at 12, brother at 20
• The different ways we experience grief depending on our age and circumstances
• Finding a spiritual foundation that provided peace amid profound loss
• Discovering the difference between fitting in and true belonging
• How writing clarified patterns and deeper meanings in her life experiences
• The meaning behind the book title "The Full Catastrophe" is the poignant enormity of life's experiences
• Writing as a way to feel truly seen and heard in an authentic community
Casey's memoir "The Full Catastrophe: All I Ever Wanted, Everything I Feared" is available wherever books are sold.
Learn more at www.caseymulliganwalsh.com
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Daniela SM (00:01):
Hi, I'm Daniela.
Welcome to my podcast, becauseEveryone has a Story, the place
to give ordinary people'sstories the chance to be shared
and preserved.
Our stories become the languageof connections.
Let's enjoy it, connect andrelate, because everyone has a
story.
Welcome.
My guest is Casey MulliganWalsh.
(00:23):
It was absolutely a joy to haveher on the show.
Casey's story is a powerfulexploration of how grief and joy
can coexist and how truebelonging is much more than just
fitting in.
This conversation holds apersonal significance for me.
It was the final recording frommy six month of travel through
(00:46):
Europe, morocco and part of theBalkans.
It was also recorded with adifficult time, as we knew that
my beloved sister-in-law, gabbyKaplan, was losing her battle
with cancer.
Casey brought an amazing energyto her talk.
She spoke with grace and light,sharing a story filled with
sadness, love and the quietstrength that vulnerability can
(01:11):
offer.
Her journey started with asearch for family and blossomed
into a deeper quest forbelonging that has influenced
every part of her life.
And, of course, we chattedabout her moving new memoir the
Full Catastrophe All I everwanted, everything I feared.
(01:31):
I found our conversation veryserene and lovely.
I hope you will too.
Casey Mulligan Walsh (01:36):
Welcome, casey to the show.
Thank you so much for having me.
Daniela SM (01:39):
Daniela, I am grateful that you're here.
I know you have a story, so whydo you want to share your story
?
Casey Mulligan Walsh (01:46):
Well, right at this moment, I'm really
interested in sharing my storybecause my memoir has just
released, on February 18th.
The story that I have to sharetoday is the story that I talk
about in the memoir.
I feel like it's important toshare is that it's a story of
repeated loss and grief andresilience and living with grief
(02:08):
beside joy, and I think we allcan use stories like that.
We all do have loss and griefin our lives at one point or
another.
Daniela SM (02:16):
That's true, and many types of grief.
So I'm glad that you'rebringing that story and also it
is perfect for this time, asthrough this adventure of six
months, a few loved one we havelost.
My husband and I realized thatwe are lucky.
I'm glad that we're doing thistrip now, so I'm glad that you
have this subject to share todaywith us.
(02:38):
So when does your story start?
Casey Mulligan Walsh (02:41):
You know, when you write memoir, one of
the big cautions is not to beginwhen you're very, very young,
otherwise it reads like anautobiography.
You know I was born and then,so that was a big struggle for
me and something I worked hardat in writing the memoir.
Because my story does begin inchildhood, when my father died
(03:03):
when I was 11.
And 10 months later my motherdied when I was 12.
I had one sibling, a brotherwho was older than me, and when
I was 20, he died.
So my story actually does startthen, because what I realized
after years of writing a storyof what I thought was of
(03:24):
relentless resilience afterrepeated loss, I suddenly
realized the real through lineof this story is the search for
belonging, and the search forbelonging was set off by the
fact that I lost my whole family, and so I spent my life in
search of a family of my own.
So I think my story starts inchildhood.
Daniela SM (03:46):
Wow, and when did you realize what you were
searching was belonging?
Casey Mulligan Walsh (03:51):
You know it's funny as a writer often you
don't put things together untilyou write.
You know you're living yourlife and you're not always
thinking about what are thethemes or the threads that tie
this all together.
And I always knew that.
As a teen and a young adult, Ispent a lot of time thinking
about what my family would looklike and how it would be when I
(04:13):
had a family.
But, honestly, I began writingin 2011.
It wasn't until about 2021 thatI suddenly realized the thread
that tied it all together wasthe search for belonging.
So my story covers a lot ofdeaths, not only my parents and
my brother, and then the peoplethat raised me.
(04:35):
After that they died when I wasfairly young, before I was 30.
But then my 20-year-old sondied.
I always knew this was a storyof repeated loss and resilience
and learning to live with joy,but when I realized that the
through line was the search forbelonging, it kind of changed
(04:56):
everything for me.
Daniela SM (04:57):
Yes, a lot of loss, and I'm sorry for your
experience that you are soresilient.
Thank you.
Every time you lost somebody,did you react the same way or
was always different?
Casey Mulligan Walsh (05:08):
I think it's different.
I think that it's differentbased on the age that you are
when you lose someone.
I mean, when I lost my parents,I was not even a teen and
children just can't processgrief in the ways that adults
can.
When my brother died, I hadjust gotten married, so I was
almost playing at being an adultnot quite, I was only 20.
(05:30):
And then when my son died whenhe was 20, I had had three
children and a long marriage,but at the time that he died I
had been going for several yearsand still was going through a
very contentious divorce.
The deaths that happened to mewhen my parents died when I was
(05:50):
a child, I don't think I reallygrieved them.
They had been ill on and offthroughout my childhood and I
just kind of developed thisunderstanding that you just do
what they tell you to do everyday.
You don't think you have achoice and life just happens to
you.
Obviously I was sad, but I wassent to live with relatives in
(06:14):
another state and I justdeveloped this stay under the
radar, don't make any trouble,do really well in school and
always look forward.
And I would say it wasn't untilmy 30s that I actually really
emotionally reconnected with thefact that I had parents and
(06:34):
there were people that I lookedlike and that I did belong to
them until I was 12.
When you lose a child after awhole life of adulthood, it's a
very different experience.
Daniela SM (06:45):
You're right.
It's true.
Casey Mulligan Walsh (06:46):
It depends on how the circumstances
it depends on the circumstancessurrounding the death.
It also depends on who you areat that point.
So the deaths are different,but the person who's
experiencing the deaths aredifferent, based on your age,
what you've been through, whatyour life circumstances are at
that time.
Daniela SM (07:05):
Do you feel like that resilience in your
personality plays a role?
Casey Mulligan Walsh (07:11):
You know, resilience is an interesting
thing.
Obviously it plays a role andobviously I can look from the
outside in and see that I'vebeen resilient.
But it's an interestingquestion whether that's
something you're born with orsomething you cultivate.
I write in my book that I neverheard the word resilience till
I was well into adulthood, Likemy early 40s I think is the
(07:34):
first time I ever heard the word.
But and I write about how Ididn't know there was a word for
putting one foot in front ofthe other, no matter what came.
But that's what I learned to do.
I didn't know I had a choice,and I'll often laughingly say
that I spent my teens withrelatives who I knew a little.
(07:56):
I didn't know it really well,but it wasn't really a tight
knit family.
They were very different frommy mother and father and so they
welcomed me, they were kind,but it never felt like my home.
So that contributed to thatsearch for home.
I didn't think that I knewthere was a choice.
Like I didn't know, I couldjust run away and go off the
(08:19):
rails.
And that's partly my innatepersonality right is that I like
to do well at things and I'mpretty determined, and just the
idea of it was the 60s and Icould have become, you know, a
wild child of the 60s, but Ijust think I didn't even know
that was an option.
Daniela SM (08:38):
That's quite interesting.
I really appreciate your story.
It's fascinating.
So you went through all theseloss and what made you decide
that you needed to write a book?
Casey Mulligan Walsh (08:49):
Well, you know the losses of my parents
and brother.
Of course, now at my age, manyof us have lost people, but for
most of my life I was the onlyone I knew, you know, who had
been orphaned as a child and hadno siblings and no family
really.
I mean, I had cousins, but weweren't extremely close.
It was after my son died,because my book isn't only about
(09:13):
death, it's about navigatinguncertainty.
It's about being extremelydetermined to create something,
so determined that you don'thave perspective and see when
enough is enough and maybe thisisn't the right thing for you.
I had the family I dreamed of.
I'm three beautiful childrenand I was really happy with that
and happy in that life.
(09:33):
But my husband was.
We were just a mismatch and hisfamily embraced me like their
own.
So it was very hard to decidenot to be in that because I was
going to lose all my familyagain.
We ended up going through a veryprotracted, hostile, difficult
divorce During that time.
(09:55):
That was kind of the dark nightof the soul for me.
It was when I really had tostart to let go of the idea that
I could control everything andunderstand that life is
uncertainty and we can't controlthings.
Often we definitely can'tcontrol our kids.
I developed kind of this newway to see the world or I guess
(10:16):
I'd say I embraced a new sort ofspirituality.
And then when my son died andthere's kind of a long story
behind what happened to him, buthis death was in a car accident
I realized that the two yearsthat I'd been going through
leading up to his death gave methis spiritual foundation that
really helped me navigate thatgrief.
(10:37):
It was almost it was hard tobelieve how much you know the
week that he died, believe howmuch you know the week that he
died.
I have a good friend who hadgone through a lot of this with
me and we just could not believehow the last year and a half to
two years, all of the thingswe've been saying, all of the
ways of viewing the world thatwe've been cultivating, all seem
(10:58):
to have been preparing me forthe loss of my child and I hate
the word preparing.
No one is ever prepared for theloss of a child and I hate the
word preparing.
No one is ever prepared for theloss of a child.
But it did give me a foundationthat I hadn't had before that
and that I would say, is thereal reason that I felt like
this story could be a book andshould be a book, because it
(11:19):
would help other people.
I felt like my job in writingthis book was to bring the
reader through who I was and whomy son was, and how we became
the people we were that day thathe died.
You know how did I end up inthis life and how did he end up
where he was that day?
Daniela SM (11:38):
You said you hate the word prepared.
Do you have another one?
Casey Mulligan Walsh (11:41):
Well, you know, whenever I talk about it,
I often say that spiritualfoundation prepared me, but it
always is jarring to me becauseI don't think we can be really
prepared.
I think what I often say as Ibacktrack is just that it
allowed me to develop thisspiritual foundation and this
new way to see the world that Icould sustain to me, and it was
(12:03):
something I could go back toagain and again during the time
that Eric died, and one of thethings I'll say is I had a lot
of peace during that time, butpeace does not preclude sorrow.
Of course, I was grieving andsad.
You can have peace aboutsomething and still just give
anything for it not to havehappened and so it was an
(12:26):
interesting combination andsomething.
I think a lot of people who knewme or knew me I lived in a
small village in upstate NewYork.
Everyone knew everyone, and Ithink a lot of people maybe
didn't understand how I couldnot be the hysterical mother.
And so that is another reasonand I think another challenge in
writing the book was to kind ofillustrate how this new way of
(12:51):
thinking worked its way in as Iwas struggling.
I mean, there are places in thebook where I talk about.
I'm laying in bed and I justcan't imagine how any of this
will ever work out.
But there's this other, there'sthis piece, you know, and I
think that's how we adopt newways of thinking about things.
There's not a huge aha momentand all of a sudden we're a
(13:14):
different person.
I think we fight our waythrough these things quite often
, and I think we have to.
Daniela SM (13:21):
That's interesting and it's true.
You see, that's what I wantwhen I ask you that you've
reacted different ways, becauseyou know also, when I lost my
dad and I was, uh, the nightbefore my 20th birthday, that I
was cold, like I lost the bestfriend.
You know, like I adore my dadand I wasn't crying and he took
(13:41):
me five months to cry.
And now I cannot even mentionhim after 34 years and still,
you know, feeling sad about it.
Casey Mulligan Walsh (13:49):
Yeah, I do understand what you're saying
and I think for me, as I said,part of the difference is that I
was a child when my parentsdied.
What is different for me isthat, like, the motherless
daughters community is a big, abig part of the grief community,
but a lot of what you, whatpeople, talk about in that
(14:10):
community, is like what was yourfather like afterwards?
Did he support you?
Well, when my mother died, myfather had already died right.
So I had a very unusual, Iwould say, experience.
And in both of those times,well, I'll tell you one thing so
I was very close to my mother.
I was close to my father, but Iwas only 11 when he died and I
(14:32):
remember so well feeling soguilty because I was so relieved
it wasn't my mother, you know,like how could I ever live
without my mother?
And then 10 months later, shedied too.
As I said back then, it wasjust okay, well, where do I live
now and I just go live there?
And I cried when my mother diedbecause it was expected.
(14:56):
But once I got settled in thenext place, I think I cried
myself to sleep every night fora year place, I think I cried
myself to sleep every night fora year.
So there is, I think, thatdelayed.
You know, sometimes you justhave it, you can't absorb it.
Sometimes, like you, you werean adult but you had a lot of
(15:16):
work to do around his death.
You know a lot of us as adultswe have all kinds of
arrangements to make andfinancial things to settle.
When my brother died I was 20.
And the interesting thing wasmy husband then had found me.
I was driving on the street andhe found me and pulled me over
because my aunt, who I wasliving with, had told him so he
could tell me old.
(15:46):
So of course instantly was ashock.
But then my very first thoughtafter that was not in a
self-pitying way, just in a verymatter of fact way.
Well, of course he died likepeople die, because that was my
experience.
My parents died and now mybrother died and in some ways it
was a shock, but in some ways Ithink I skip over denial and
bargaining and go right toacceptance and that's probably
(16:09):
baked in from childhood loss.
And then of course, when my sondied it was extremely different
.
Yes, you know, it's your childand I was 44.
You know, it was a wholedifferent experience.
Daniela SM (16:22):
So because you have so much lost, are you not always
afraid that people are going tokeep dying?
Casey Mulligan Walsh (16:27):
Yes, Well , I'm laughing a little bit
because I just had an essaypublished in Hippocampus
magazine and it's a hermit crabessay, which I don't know if
you've heard of those, but it'swhen you write an essay, but in
a different container.
So, for example, it's when youwrite an essay but in a
different container.
So, for example, it's a recipe.
(16:47):
It's really an essay, but it'sa recipe or a crossword puzzle
or something like that.
So this was a Help Wanted adand the title was Help Wanted,
preemptive Griever andpreemptive griever is kind of
this term I've coined.
I haven't found it anywhereelse, but it's exactly what
you're talking about.
(17:08):
I could lay in bed next to myhusband and in like two minutes
or talk to one of my kids andhang up the phone and think and
that was the last time theytalked Like I have these whole
scenarios in my head and I don'tknow and I try really hard not
to do that.
So this essay was all very muchdark humor and so many people
(17:31):
wrote to me saying you're insidemy head, like it's exactly the
same thing that I do.
I don't.
It's never controlled what I do.
I mean, we travel all over theworld.
It's not like I'm protective ofmy children.
But it's always in my head likesave the voicemails, because
that could be the last time youhear their voice.
(17:52):
And again I think that isthat's kind of big.
Daniela SM (17:56):
I remember when I said I was young, right, and I
said, oh, you know, I wantchange, and then my mom left,
and so then I said it again, andthen my dad passed away.
So I'm like, okay, I will neverask for change again.
Casey Mulligan Walsh (18:11):
I don't want change anymore.
Yeah, right, which is tough,because as we learn, as we get
older, all life is is change,right?
Daniela SM (18:20):
Exactly Something that I crave and I like change.
Sometimes it comes to mind that, oh well, be careful what you
ask for.
Casey Mulligan Walsh (18:30):
I totally relate to that.
Daniela SM (18:32):
Yes, the part of spirituality.
How do you start to becomespiritual?
Were you religious before ornot religious?
How did this happen?
Casey Mulligan Walsh (18:43):
Well, it's interesting From the time I
was a very little girl, I thinkmy mother brought me to Sunday
school first, like when I wasfour.
The house we lived in then itwas right across from the church
.
It was in New Jersey, but I hadsuch a connection that we moved
quite frequently.
That was the other thing a lotof illness but also frequent
(19:03):
moves.
Everywhere we moved I somehowhooked up with a family who
would pick me up and take me tochurch.
I always had this big desire.
They were all kind ofProtestant Christian churches On
one level you could say well,it was like extended family.
We didn't have extended familythere.
They all felt like doting aunts.
You know all the people in theSunday school.
(19:25):
But I also did have this deepsense of being connected and
when I moved to live with thefamily big Irish Catholic family
they made me a good Catholicgirl in like three months flat.
So I was Catholic for a littlewhile and then in college I
remember being in the basementof the library with this huge
(19:45):
comparative religions book, liketrying to figure out where I
fit.
Then I married and moved tothis little town and for 25
years I was very involved in acongregational church when
things started really gettingdifficult.
I don't often mention where thisall came from.
There's this thing called ACourse in Miracles that a lot of
(20:08):
these tenets come from, but Iusually don't mention that
because there are a lot of faithsystems that believe these
sorts of things, things likewe're all connected, we're not
separate.
We keep ourselves safe andthink we're separate, but we're
not.
The biggest thing is, for me,is that everything that isn't
(20:28):
love is fear, and then if we'renot operating out of strength,
you know in a loving way whetherit's anger, jealousy or hatred
or any of that.
That's all based on fear, andit really helped me to see how
the things that other people did, even though they were hurting
me, weren't really about me.
You know that they werefunctioning out of their own
(20:51):
fear.
Um, it's, it's, uh.
When I was talking aboutchanges, um, inevitable, um.
I've mentioned a lot lately PemaChodron, who I really enjoy, or
.
One of her seminal books iswhen Things Fall Apart, and
that's basically what she'ssaying in there is that life is
uncertainty and so, rather thanscrambling to control everything
(21:15):
and make it certain and make itthe way you want it, we would
do much better to lean into allthis change and uncertainty and
see what it has to teach us, andthose were the kinds of things
that were helping me get througha really hostile, very
isolating situation during thedivorce.
(21:37):
But a big part of that is thatwe can't be separated, and so
when my son died, he had beengoing through a lot of
challenges too, but I had thispeace around the fact that maybe
this was just the life he wasmeant to live and we were just
finding it out now, but thathe'll always be with me, and of
(21:58):
course, it's not the same ashaving him here in body.
I wish he were here.
He died almost 26 years ago,but there are things every day
that make me know that he's withme.
Daniela SM (22:09):
Were you in this small town and you met somebody.
You started to read books.
How was this shift?
Casey Mulligan Walsh (22:22):
Well, I lived in this small town and I
worked in the local bank forlike almost 20 years and when I
was in my late 30s I knew thatif I didn't go back to school or
, you know, finish my educationor do something different, I was
going to be working in thissmall bank for 40 years and that
was not intellectuallysatisfying.
So I went back to school, Idrove an hour each way and
finished my bachelor's andmaster's degrees and became a
(22:44):
speech language pathologist andthen I got a job in a school
district about 40 minutes fromme.
So most of my life at thatpoint was not in this town, it
was, you know, with other people.
And there was a another womanand she's in the book who I was
very close friends with and weboth were kind of exploring this
together at the same time andwe were both going through some
(23:08):
very challenging personalcircumstances.
And that's a really goodquestion, because I think doing
this sort of thing or readingthese things in an isolated way
is very different from whenyou're kind of have this other
person to work through it with,and this is happening to me.
Well, let's think about it thisway.
(23:28):
One of the remarkable things,she actually was with me the day
that my son died and was in theemergency room with me, and we
just were flabbergasted at howall these things that we'd been
working through for a couple ofyears 100% were the things I
needed to hear and think and sayat that moment.
Daniela SM (23:50):
Yes, I feel like it's true.
When you have like a partner,somebody to learn something is
so much more interesting andalso you can discuss, get
understand it and deeper it.
Casey Mulligan Walsh (24:01):
Yes, yeah no, absolutely Absolutely, and
I think that you know, intraditional church situations
they would talk about that asfellowship and it's important
that we all come together.
And I also say that this kindof different way to see the
world was not instead of what Ibelieved.
It wasn't like now I'm notChristian and you know it just
(24:24):
made it more functional.
It definitely was not an either, or you know, it wasn't like I
was had a Christian mindset andsuddenly I became Hindu.
But a lot of these beliefs are alittle East meets West.
Right, it's a little kind ofBuddhism mixed with Christianity
.
West right, it's a little kindof Buddhism mixed with
(24:45):
Christianity.
And it just spoke to me.
It just really spoke to me in away that all the other things I
had embraced my whole life, itwasn't different, it just made
it functional.
It's not a good word, but itjust really brought it all alive
to me and made me able to findpeace and embrace it.
Nowadays, I'd say, all theseyears later, I just have a more
(25:06):
expansive view of spirituality.
I think it's.
We don't live in a worldanymore where we can think that
our way is the only way.
Right at the end of my book, Ithink my religion now is
kindness and compassion, All ofthose things that are basically,
are, or should be, the basictenets of any faith.
Daniela SM (25:26):
Yes, okay, I agree, I have the same belief as you,
for sure.
Yeah, that's amazing.
I'm glad to hear that youbecame stronger into what you
believe once your son passedaway, or the level that you were
was good enough.
Casey Mulligan Walsh (25:43):
You know that's interesting because as I
was writing the book, you knowyou have to come up with your
summary and your log line and,oh my gosh, forever.
There's two things that are alittle unexpected about my book.
One of them is that it's not abook about.
There are plenty of wonderfulbooks about.
I had this child, he struggled,he died and this is how I.
(26:04):
You know what I learnedafterward.
My son's death comes threequarters of the way through my
book, because the book is reallyabout me and the search for
belonging and the struggle.
But when I would writesummaries of the book, I finally
realized that the thing thatwas different is that I found
(26:27):
this new belief system and thisnew way to see the world that
gave me strength.
And then my son died.
So it it isn't like I had thishorrific experience, which it
was of losing a child and then Ilearned all these things.
It was a little bit the reverse, that I would kind of gone
through the fire for thosecouple of years before he died
(26:50):
and then when he died, it waslike this is what it was all for
and it just confirmed it, Ithink, affirmed and confirmed it
, and also somewhere in all ofthat, I really began to
understand what belonging reallyis.
So you know, a lot of us searchfor belonging, but what we do
(27:11):
instead is try to fit in, andfitting in is kind of being as
much like everyone around you asyou can be, so you don't stand
out, so everybody will justaccept you.
But belonging is is having thestrength to be yourself.
And and um, as one reviewerrecently wrote that I just loved
(27:34):
, is that sometimes people willreview your book and they see
things or say things in a waythat you never thought of, but
they're great.
And someone said somethingabout how you know all that work
at fitting in I'm thinking, I'mtrying to, you know, belong
that I'm really just fitting inkeeps you from having this
(27:55):
belonging that you really want,because you're trying so hard to
be like everyone else.
That's not true belonging.
And so I think that there's atime in the book when people are
coming to the house hundreds ofpeople the weekend that he died
, and I just realized that I'mnot alone and maybe I never was
(28:15):
alone, and that belonging becamemuch more real and deeper for
me then.
Daniela SM (28:21):
Interesting, being from different cultures and
living in different countries, Ialways feel like I don't belong
and I've been pursuing these inthe last six months, hoping
that where is it that I belong?
And to me is you mentioned that?
No, standing out.
I remember my mom always sayingbe brave and try to be
(28:43):
different, and I'm like that'sthe worst advice.
Casey Mulligan Walsh (28:46):
I know, I know, especially as a kid.
Daniela SM (28:50):
Yes, you don't want to stand out, no, no, no.
I realized, for example, whenwe were in Malaga, in Spain,
that I was different.
But I think people, when peopleare kind and friendly, that's
what I thought.
Okay, I belong here becausepeople are friendly and
accepting For me.
That's what belonging was like.
(29:10):
I can be myself, because I amme, because I'm different, is
true, but there is a community,people being open, open-minded
as well, to accept Other people,having compassion and
acceptance, not just you,because you're different.
Casey Mulligan Walsh (29:27):
Yeah, you know, we could have an
hour-long conversation, couldn'twe?
Just about fitting in andbelonging, because it's
sometimes in my life andespecially we think about
childhood and being teens.
The last thing you want to dousually is stand out, and I
think it saved me in many ways.
(29:47):
But there comes a time whensome of those coping mechanisms
no longer serve you and it youknow.
So maybe it helped me getthrough those very difficult
years when we were moving aliveand then when I was suddenly
sent to this whole new world,really in upstate New York,
there came a time midlife whereI realized that that behavior no
(30:08):
longer served me.
And another thing that comes tomind is that people will ask
often like why do you write?
That's one of those genericwriter questions.
I feel like I started writingessays, so I have a lot of
essays published and then,having written this book,
especially when you write memoir, then people, if they choose to
(30:29):
read what you write, they'reknowing the real you.
It's not the same as whenyou're seeing people in person
and there's small talk orwhatever, and I feel I think
more heard and more seen becauseof the book and because of my
writing than I ever did Part ofthis writing community,
especially people who writememoir or nonfiction, creative
(30:52):
nonfiction, are people who allhave interesting stories and
they all, most all, everyone Iknow is very open-minded because
we're all here to dig as deeplyas we can and be as honest as
we can for the reader.
So I think the writingcommunity is another part of my
(31:13):
feeling, that sense of belonging.
Daniela SM (31:15):
That's true, because you found, yeah, a group of
people that do the same as you,that's true, but also because
you know what you wanted A lotof people don't know what they
want, right.
They're still looking.
Yes, yes, yes.
You mentioned that you wroteyour book as a catharsis.
Casey Mulligan Walsh (31:32):
A lot of people will say, oh, writing can
be therapy.
I didn't start writing until 12years after my son died, and
then it took me 12 years towrite the book, so pretty much
25 years later.
That gave me a lot of time toalready have worked through the
trauma and the loss and thegrief although you grieve
(31:52):
forever, right, but writing isand can be therapeutic, which I
think there's a distinctionthere.
I was not writing for thatreason.
I was writing for the reader,although I think most of us who
write nonfiction, creativenonfiction, will say that you
learn things as you write, andpeople often say I don't know
what I think until I write it.
(32:13):
Sometimes, as you're writing adraft after draft after draft,
or kind of reverse engineeringyour understanding of what you
were doing back when you were akid or as a young adult, and so
the patterns in your life becomeclear where, if you were just
living them and not writingabout it, you may never come to
the place where you reallyexamine what were those patterns
(32:35):
.
I don't know about it beingcatharsis for me, but it was
clarifying for me.
I think that's the word I'd use.
Yeah.
Daniela SM (32:43):
You know you were ready before a situation happens
.
It's not like you go readyafter the situation happens and
you wrote a book way after youheal a little bit.
Obviously, as you say, you cannever stop being, you know, sad
about this losing your son, youknow talking about your book.
You were writing short storiesbefore, and then you decided to
(33:06):
write a book.
Casey Mulligan Walsh (33:07):
So in 2011, in the capital district of
New York, there's a woman whotaught writing in a town nearby
for many years.
Her course was called Writingwhat you Know, basically memoir.
There would be 20 students andyou go with a 750 word essay, 20
copies, pass it around, read italoud, everyone would write
(33:28):
comments and she would commentand I had never read my work
aloud or written anything forthat.
I always knew I was a goodwriter in terms of I wrote
diagnostic reports, all thosesorts of things, but that does
not mean you can be a goodstoryteller, right.
Two completely different thingsand I just really got hooked in
that class.
(33:48):
Then I also saw the reaction tosome of what I was writing, and
if people don't reflect to youwhat your life is, it's just
your life, right.
But then I'd write these piecesand they'd be like oh my
goodness.
I wrote essays from 2011 till2017, about six years regularly,
because we formed a group, we'dmeet every two weeks and we had
(34:10):
a deadline, so that kind ofmakes you produce work.
And then in 2017, I had heardenough and thought enough about
this that I just kind of roughedout the outline of what a book
would look like and I took kindof like the best parts of my
essays and plugged them inapproximately where they would
go, and it took from 2017, early2017 to the end of 2019 to get
(34:35):
one final draft which was 40,000words longer than the book.
So I just like wrote everythingand then the job becomes what
goes, what stays, what needs tobe tightened.
But, as I said earlier, Ithought I was writing a book
about relentless resilienceafter repeated loss and how you
can be knocked down again andagain and still get up and still
(34:57):
seek and find joy in your life,and that would have been a
perfectly fine book.
But when I realized, throughone of many webinars and writing
courses that I took, itsuddenly hit me one day that
it's really about the search forbelonging, then it seemed even
more like it would be of serviceto readers, because it is about
(35:19):
grief, but it's also aboutdifficult divorce and raising
kids who struggle.
But I think there are manypeople who have spent their life
searching for belonging for onereason or another.
That's how it became a book.
And what is the name of yourbook?
Belonging for one reason oranother.
That's how it became a book.
And what is the name of yourbook.
The book is the FullCatastrophe, all I Ever Wanted,
(35:42):
everything I Feared.
And the Full Catastrophe comesfrom Zorba the Greek who, boss,
asked Zorba, are you married?
And he said am I not a man?
Of course I'm married.
I've got the wife, the car, thekids the full catastrophe.
And so what I say is likethat's it.
John Kabat-Zinn wrote a bookcalled Full Catastrophe Living,
and he describes the fullcatastrophe as the poignant
(36:02):
enormity of life's experiencesall of it the bills, the deaths,
the joys, all of it.
And that's what I wanted.
I felt like I was in, isolate,I was just alone in the world
and I wanted that fullcatastrophe of life and family
life and friends.
And I got that and then I sortof had the literal catastrophe.
(36:24):
That's kind of a double meaning.
Daniela SM (36:26):
Yeah, that's very original, thank you.
And what about the cover?
How did you came up with thecover, the cover, so?
I can see it, but you have todescribe it.
Casey Mulligan Walsh (36:36):
Yes, so the cover first.
I'll say so.
I'm with a very small press,it's a traditional press but I
knew that if I wanted a like aprofessionally designed cover,
I'd have to hire a designer.
So I did hire a cover designer.
He had this concept right awayand we went back and forth on
details.
He said I think your book needsto be ironic or like.
(36:58):
Somebody needs to look at thecover and think, whoa, that's
not going to go well or that's adisaster about to happen.
There's a table, a very kind ofcottagey, farmhouse looking
distressed table, and there's avase full of pink tulips pretty
little vase full of tulips, butit's been knocked over and it's
(37:19):
about to completely go over.
You know, what's really funnyis it wasn't until the whole
cover was designed and the coveris mostly black and bright pink
and then the spring green ofthe leaves.
But it wasn't until the wholething was done that I realized
that the vase of tulips hasthree flowers and I had three
children and so that's symbolicas well.
(37:40):
But it was really.
I found that vase and I lovedit and I liked the colors, and
so it all worked out the way itshould and I really love my
cover.
I think the colors are striking.
It does evoke a sense ofsomething ostensibly beautiful
about to go horribly wrong.
Daniela SM (37:57):
Yes, it is actually very sexy.
I like it.
Casey Mulligan Walsh (38:01):
Thank you .
One other thing is that theblurb that I have on the front
cover, which came from ClaireBidwell Smith, who's very well
known in the grief space, doestalk about how all the ways loss
yields to love.
And it was really important forme to have that quote on the
front cover because, whilethere's a lot of symbolism in
(38:21):
the picture, there's nothingabout the cover and nothing
about the title that tells youit's a book about grief and loss
.
So I think that pull quote onthe front cover does a lot of
heavy lifting.
It's a searingly beautifultestament to all the ways loss
yields to love.
Daniela SM (38:37):
Yeah, that's beautiful.
Casey Mulligan Walsh (38:39):
Yes.
Daniela SM (38:40):
I love that you mentioned grief.
There's many levels of it, butfor me, lately, when your
children grow up, yes, they'restill there and they are adults,
and that's what we want to haveindependent children, but there
is somehow the grief of 20years that you spent taking care
of them, even though I was donebeing a mom who takes care of
(39:04):
kids.
Every time I see a picture, Imiss that so much and it's, you
know, a time that will nevercome back.
And I know when people say, oh,enjoy now because you will go
so fast, and so you don'tunderstand that until it has
passed and I think not that Iwould like to go back, that's
true, but however, there is thistime that is not here anymore.
Casey Mulligan Walsh (39:26):
No, it's forever.
I totally understand that.
Yes, that's so, so true.
And I think for me, because ofmy early losses, I even in those
moments I remember looking outmy kitchen window.
My in-laws lived like kittycorner across the street.
They were very close by and itwas lovely in a way, because the
(39:48):
kids just could go back andforth.
The dog went back and forth.
It was great.
But I used to look out thekitchen window and watch the
kids walking across the streetwhen they were little and think
someday you're going to wish youcould see this again.
Now I didn't realize it wouldbe because one of my children
would be gone, but I always hadthat sense that everything is
(40:11):
fleeting.
But now I look back, I havedifferent reasons too, of course
, but I look, had that sensethat everything is fleeting, but
no, I look back.
I have different reasons too,of course, but I look back at
the pictures from when they wereyoung and it's very bittersweet
, yeah, yeah, I totallyunderstand that.
Daniela SM (40:26):
And people say that it's empty-nester.
But I don't feel that two wordsmeans grief.
I think there's other feelings,emotions perhaps, or maybe
because it's too commercializedthe sentence it could be.
Casey Mulligan Walsh (40:39):
Yeah, I think that a lot of people feel
that when you know what theytalk about is like when your
child or your last child goesoff to college and suddenly your
role is different becauseyou're not actively mothering
anyone anymore.
And now, if you're married totheir father, now it's like, oh,
it's just you and me and whatdo we do with our time.
(41:00):
And I think that there is griefaround emptiness syndrome.
It's the grief over the loss ofa role you know and your
identity for all those years.
And if you had a number of kidsspaced apart, it was more than
18 years, right, it could havebeen 30 years, you know.
And suddenly, who am I?
Yes, yes, but yeah, I thinkthere is.
(41:23):
I sometimes look at pictures ofthe kids when they're young and
think, like you know, life getscomplicated as kids get older
and they come into adulthood,and not everybody moves from
their teen years into adulthoodsmoothly.
And there's just when they'relittle.
They're just a big ball ofpotential, you know, and none of
(41:47):
the the things that might getthrown in their path along the
way.
They haven't happened yet, youknow.
Daniela SM (41:53):
Yes.
Casey Mulligan Walsh (41:54):
We had so much control.
Daniela SM (41:55):
Yes, yes, and I like the way you say.
It's true, it's grief for therole that is not there.
I mean, I'm not a writer, but Iwrote some a piece of that.
I wanted to be comical as wellthat being a parent is actually.
It's a contract job that youare going to be let go for
certainty.
You know you're going tocertainly be let go.
(42:18):
Oh, that's great.
You work really hard,unconditionally, and then
eventually you're like sorry,you're fired.
Casey Mulligan Walsh (42:26):
Goodbye.
Yeah, I like that.
I like that.
I'd like to read that, yeah.
Daniela SM (42:33):
But yeah, so I like how you put it in perspective.
It's true, and again, griefcomes in many ways and it's not
a topic that people close to myheart and not many people
understand that.
I don't know, maybe alsoanother word that people don't
(42:57):
understand that, maybe becausepeople think belonging, oh, you
just want to be with the group,with the.
You know, you just want to bein, right?
Casey Mulligan Walsh (43:06):
I feel like we can't talk about fitting
in versus belonging withoutmentioning Brene Brown.
She wrote the book on that.
You know the difference betweenfitting in versus belonging
without mentioning Brene Brown.
She's wrote the book on that.
You know the difference betweenfitting in and belonging.
Even I'd say when I firststarted writing the book, I was
using those termsinterchangeably and then I
really learned, like, what thedifference is.
And I think a lot of times wedon't understand things until we
(43:28):
have words for them.
And if younger people couldunderstand that what you're
doing is fitting in, that's notthe same as belonging, that
could be really helpful asyou're growing up to understand,
even if there's times that youfeel like fitting in is the
right thing to do.
I don't think it's always thewrong thing to do.
Sometimes it's self protective.
But having a good sense of whatthe difference is, I think is
(43:51):
really important.
Daniela SM (43:52):
Yeah, that's wonderful.
Okay, so we talked about yourbook.
We talked about belonging.
We talked about grief.
Is there anything else that youthink that we should mention?
We talked how the book was made.
Casey Mulligan Walsh (44:03):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, no, I think we've
pretty much covered it.
Daniela SM (44:09):
It's been a wonderful conversation.
I want to know what is next forCasey.
Casey Mulligan Walsh (44:13):
Ah, that question.
I want to know what is what isnext for Casey?
That question, I always getthat question.
Right now I'm laughing becausemy book only released a couple
of weeks ago.
For the last maybe year notquite a year, but the last
several months I've said I'm nolonger a writer.
I'm now a full time bookmarketing executive.
But once I get back to and Ihave a lot of essays now still
(44:36):
that I'm working on placing,when you write a book like this,
one of the challenges is wheredo you stop right?
So when I finally decided wherethis story ends, I have a lot
of essays that could go into anew book about living with grief
.
10, 20, 30 years later, youknow, like living with grief and
(44:57):
joy and how you do that.
So that's one idea.
I also experimented with andreally enjoy a lot of
unconventional forms like microflash, like writing essays and
100 words or 250 words.
I'm the founding editor of a newliterary magazine called In a
Flash and we only accept piecesof 500 words or less.
(45:21):
And then there are other kindsof essays, like I mentioned, the
hermit crab essay or a braidedessay.
There's all these kind ofunconventional forms that I'd
love to compile some of theessays I have, alternating with
some of these more unusual forms.
I have a few pieces in placeslike HuffPost or Next Avenue
(45:42):
that are more media outlets,more mainstream outlets, and I
think I'd like to explore someof that too.
So I don't know.
I've got all kinds of ideas,nothing firm.
Daniela SM (45:53):
Yeah, well, that's good.
I mean, you have a lot of workon your hands.
Question for you what do you dofor fun?
Casey Mulligan Walsh (45:58):
Oh, well, we love to travel, so we've
done itching to get goingsomewhere again soon because we
haven't traveled in quite awhile.
We have 10 grandkids.
This is the second marriage,happily married for 22 years.
So between us we have 10grandkids, so they provide built
in fun.
I go in spurts with crochetingor things like that.
(46:20):
I would say the number onething on that list is travel.
Daniela SM (46:24):
Wonderful.
So where are you going next?
Casey Mulligan Walsh (46:27):
I don't know.
There's a difference betweentravel and vacation, and I would
really love to go on a vacationwhere you just like lay by the
water and you know whatever.
But we tend to be travelers,you know, and we tend to not do
group things.
We plan our own, you know.
We get Airbnbs, we rent a car.
Daniela SM (46:46):
Well, we have a lot of things in common too about
that then.
Yes, yes, we do, we do.
Yes, we have traveled the sameway.
We go on Airbnbs and we rentvehicles, and we've been
traveling around.
We went to the Balkan countries, traveled for a month there.
Casey Mulligan Walsh (47:01):
Yeah, we loved.
Yeah, I got a mission to getback out there, though.
Daniela SM (47:04):
Wonderful.
It's been a while Well.
Thank you so much, Casey, forsharing your story, and all the
best with your book.
I'm sure it's going to be verysuccessful.
Thank you.
Casey Mulligan Walsh (47:13):
Thank you so much.
It's been such a greatconversation, daniela, thank you
so much.
Daniela SM (47:17):
You're welcome.
Thank you, hi.
I'm Daniela and you've beenlistening to, because Everyone
has a Story.
Thank you so much for tuning into this beautiful conversation
with Casey.
To me, it's a powerful reminderthat joy and sorrow can live
side by side and that the needto truly belong is something we
(47:38):
all feel deep down.
If you enjoyed today's episode,please take five seconds to
think of someone in your lifewho might appreciate what you
just heard, or someone whosestory deserves to be shared and
preserved.
When that person comes to mind,send them a quick text with the
link to this episode.
That's how the ordinary magickeeps going.
(48:01):
Join me next time for anotherpowerful story conversation.
Thank you for listening.
Hasta pronto.
Hi, I'm Daniela.
Welcome to my podcast, becauseEveryone has a Story, the place
to give ordinary people'sstories the chance to be shared
and preserved.
Our stories become the languageof connections.
Let's enjoy it, connect andrelate, because everyone has a
story.
Welcome.
My guest is Casey MulliganWalsh.
(00:23):
It was absolutely a joy to haveher on the show.
Casey's story is a powerfulexploration of how grief and joy
can coexist and how truebelonging is much more than just
fitting in.
This conversation holds apersonal significance for me.
It was the final recording frommy six month of travel through
(00:46):
Europe, morocco and part of theBalkans.
It was also recorded with adifficult time, as we knew that
my beloved sister-in-law, gabbyKaplan, was losing her battle
with cancer.
Casey brought an amazing energyto her talk.
She spoke with grace and light,sharing a story filled with
sadness, love and the quietstrength that vulnerability can
(01:11):
offer.
Her journey started with asearch for family and blossomed
into a deeper quest forbelonging that has influenced
every part of her life.
And, of course, we chattedabout her moving new memoir the
Full Catastrophe All I everwanted, everything I feared.
(01:31):
I found our conversation veryserene and lovely.
I hope you will too.
Casey Mulligan Walsh (01:36):
Welcome, casey to the show.
Thank you so much for having me.
Daniela SM (01:39):
Daniela, I am grateful that you're here.
I know you have a story, so whydo you want to share your story
?
Casey Mulligan Walsh (01:46):
Well, right at this moment, I'm really
interested in sharing my storybecause my memoir has just
released, on February 18th.
The story that I have to sharetoday is the story that I talk
about in the memoir.
I feel like it's important toshare is that it's a story of
repeated loss and grief andresilience and living with grief
(02:08):
beside joy, and I think we allcan use stories like that.
We all do have loss and griefin our lives at one point or
another.
Daniela SM (02:16):
That's true, and many types of grief.
So I'm glad that you'rebringing that story and also it
is perfect for this time, asthrough this adventure of six
months, a few loved one we havelost.
My husband and I realized thatwe are lucky.
I'm glad that we're doing thistrip now, so I'm glad that you
have this subject to share todaywith us.
(02:38):
So when does your story start?
Casey Mulligan Walsh (02:41):
You know, when you write memoir, one of
the big cautions is not to beginwhen you're very, very young,
otherwise it reads like anautobiography.
You know I was born and then,so that was a big struggle for
me and something I worked hardat in writing the memoir.
Because my story does begin inchildhood, when my father died
(03:03):
when I was 11.
And 10 months later my motherdied when I was 12.
I had one sibling, a brotherwho was older than me, and when
I was 20, he died.
So my story actually does startthen, because what I realized
after years of writing a storyof what I thought was of
(03:24):
relentless resilience afterrepeated loss, I suddenly
realized the real through lineof this story is the search for
belonging, and the search forbelonging was set off by the
fact that I lost my whole family, and so I spent my life in
search of a family of my own.
So I think my story starts inchildhood.
Daniela SM (03:46):
Wow, and when did you realize what you were
searching was belonging?
Casey Mulligan Walsh (03:51):
You know it's funny as a writer often you
don't put things together untilyou write.
You know you're living yourlife and you're not always
thinking about what are thethemes or the threads that tie
this all together.
And I always knew that.
As a teen and a young adult, Ispent a lot of time thinking
about what my family would looklike and how it would be when I
(04:13):
had a family.
But, honestly, I began writingin 2011.
It wasn't until about 2021 thatI suddenly realized the thread
that tied it all together wasthe search for belonging.
So my story covers a lot ofdeaths, not only my parents and
my brother, and then the peoplethat raised me.
(04:35):
After that they died when I wasfairly young, before I was 30.
But then my 20-year-old sondied.
I always knew this was a storyof repeated loss and resilience
and learning to live with joy,but when I realized that the
through line was the search forbelonging, it kind of changed
(04:56):
everything for me.
Daniela SM (04:57):
Yes, a lot of loss, and I'm sorry for your
experience that you are soresilient.
Thank you.
Every time you lost somebody,did you react the same way or
was always different?
Casey Mulligan Walsh (05:08):
I think it's different.
I think that it's differentbased on the age that you are
when you lose someone.
I mean, when I lost my parents,I was not even a teen and
children just can't processgrief in the ways that adults
can.
When my brother died, I hadjust gotten married, so I was
almost playing at being an adultnot quite, I was only 20.
(05:30):
And then when my son died whenhe was 20, I had had three
children and a long marriage,but at the time that he died I
had been going for several yearsand still was going through a
very contentious divorce.
The deaths that happened to mewhen my parents died when I was
(05:50):
a child, I don't think I reallygrieved them.
They had been ill on and offthroughout my childhood and I
just kind of developed thisunderstanding that you just do
what they tell you to do everyday.
You don't think you have achoice and life just happens to
you.
Obviously I was sad, but I wassent to live with relatives in
(06:14):
another state and I justdeveloped this stay under the
radar, don't make any trouble,do really well in school and
always look forward.
And I would say it wasn't untilmy 30s that I actually really
emotionally reconnected with thefact that I had parents and
(06:34):
there were people that I lookedlike and that I did belong to
them until I was 12.
When you lose a child after awhole life of adulthood, it's a
very different experience.
Daniela SM (06:45):
You're right.
It's true.
Casey Mulligan Walsh (06:46):
It depends on how the circumstances
it depends on the circumstancessurrounding the death.
It also depends on who you areat that point.
So the deaths are different,but the person who's
experiencing the deaths aredifferent, based on your age,
what you've been through, whatyour life circumstances are at
that time.
Daniela SM (07:05):
Do you feel like that resilience in your
personality plays a role?
Casey Mulligan Walsh (07:11):
You know, resilience is an interesting
thing.
Obviously it plays a role andobviously I can look from the
outside in and see that I'vebeen resilient.
But it's an interestingquestion whether that's
something you're born with orsomething you cultivate.
I write in my book that I neverheard the word resilience till
I was well into adulthood, Likemy early 40s I think is the
(07:34):
first time I ever heard the word.
But and I write about how Ididn't know there was a word for
putting one foot in front ofthe other, no matter what came.
But that's what I learned to do.
I didn't know I had a choice,and I'll often laughingly say
that I spent my teens withrelatives who I knew a little.
(07:56):
I didn't know it really well,but it wasn't really a tight
knit family.
They were very different frommy mother and father and so they
welcomed me, they were kind,but it never felt like my home.
So that contributed to thatsearch for home.
I didn't think that I knewthere was a choice.
Like I didn't know, I couldjust run away and go off the
(08:19):
rails.
And that's partly my innatepersonality right is that I like
to do well at things and I'mpretty determined, and just the
idea of it was the 60s and Icould have become, you know, a
wild child of the 60s, but Ijust think I didn't even know
that was an option.
Daniela SM (08:38):
That's quite interesting.
I really appreciate your story.
It's fascinating.
So you went through all theseloss and what made you decide
that you needed to write a book?
Casey Mulligan Walsh (08:49):
Well, you know the losses of my parents
and brother.
Of course, now at my age, manyof us have lost people, but for
most of my life I was the onlyone I knew, you know, who had
been orphaned as a child and hadno siblings and no family
really.
I mean, I had cousins, but weweren't extremely close.
It was after my son died,because my book isn't only about
(09:13):
death, it's about navigatinguncertainty.
It's about being extremelydetermined to create something,
so determined that you don'thave perspective and see when
enough is enough and maybe thisisn't the right thing for you.
I had the family I dreamed of.
I'm three beautiful childrenand I was really happy with that
and happy in that life.
(09:33):
But my husband was.
We were just a mismatch and hisfamily embraced me like their
own.
So it was very hard to decidenot to be in that because I was
going to lose all my familyagain.
We ended up going through a veryprotracted, hostile, difficult
divorce During that time.
(09:55):
That was kind of the dark nightof the soul for me.
It was when I really had tostart to let go of the idea that
I could control everything andunderstand that life is
uncertainty and we can't controlthings.
Often we definitely can'tcontrol our kids.
I developed kind of this newway to see the world or I guess
(10:16):
I'd say I embraced a new sort ofspirituality.
And then when my son died andthere's kind of a long story
behind what happened to him, buthis death was in a car accident
I realized that the two yearsthat I'd been going through
leading up to his death gave methis spiritual foundation that
really helped me navigate thatgrief.
(10:37):
It was almost it was hard tobelieve how much you know the
week that he died, believe howmuch you know the week that he
died.
I have a good friend who hadgone through a lot of this with
me and we just could not believehow the last year and a half to
two years, all of the thingswe've been saying, all of the
ways of viewing the world thatwe've been cultivating, all seem
(10:58):
to have been preparing me forthe loss of my child and I hate
the word preparing.
No one is ever prepared for theloss of a child and I hate the
word preparing.
No one is ever prepared for theloss of a child.
But it did give me a foundationthat I hadn't had before that
and that I would say, is thereal reason that I felt like
this story could be a book andshould be a book, because it
(11:19):
would help other people.
I felt like my job in writingthis book was to bring the
reader through who I was and whomy son was, and how we became
the people we were that day thathe died.
You know how did I end up inthis life and how did he end up
where he was that day?
Daniela SM (11:38):
You said you hate the word prepared.
Do you have another one?
Casey Mulligan Walsh (11:41):
Well, you know, whenever I talk about it,
I often say that spiritualfoundation prepared me, but it
always is jarring to me becauseI don't think we can be really
prepared.
I think what I often say as Ibacktrack is just that it
allowed me to develop thisspiritual foundation and this
new way to see the world that Icould sustain to me, and it was
(12:03):
something I could go back toagain and again during the time
that Eric died, and one of thethings I'll say is I had a lot
of peace during that time, butpeace does not preclude sorrow.
Of course, I was grieving andsad.
You can have peace aboutsomething and still just give
anything for it not to havehappened and so it was an
(12:26):
interesting combination andsomething.
I think a lot of people who knewme or knew me I lived in a
small village in upstate NewYork.
Everyone knew everyone, and Ithink a lot of people maybe
didn't understand how I couldnot be the hysterical mother.
And so that is another reasonand I think another challenge in
writing the book was to kind ofillustrate how this new way of
(12:51):
thinking worked its way in as Iwas struggling.
I mean, there are places in thebook where I talk about.
I'm laying in bed and I justcan't imagine how any of this
will ever work out.
But there's this other, there'sthis piece, you know, and I
think that's how we adopt newways of thinking about things.
There's not a huge aha momentand all of a sudden we're a
(13:14):
different person.
I think we fight our waythrough these things quite often
, and I think we have to.
Daniela SM (13:21):
That's interesting and it's true.
You see, that's what I wantwhen I ask you that you've
reacted different ways, becauseyou know also, when I lost my
dad and I was, uh, the nightbefore my 20th birthday, that I
was cold, like I lost the bestfriend.
You know, like I adore my dadand I wasn't crying and he took
(13:41):
me five months to cry.
And now I cannot even mentionhim after 34 years and still,
you know, feeling sad about it.
Casey Mulligan Walsh (13:49):
Yeah, I do understand what you're saying
and I think for me, as I said,part of the difference is that I
was a child when my parentsdied.
What is different for me isthat, like, the motherless
daughters community is a big, abig part of the grief community,
but a lot of what you, whatpeople, talk about in that
(14:10):
community, is like what was yourfather like afterwards?
Did he support you?
Well, when my mother died, myfather had already died right.
So I had a very unusual, Iwould say, experience.
And in both of those times,well, I'll tell you one thing so
I was very close to my mother.
I was close to my father, but Iwas only 11 when he died and I
(14:32):
remember so well feeling soguilty because I was so relieved
it wasn't my mother, you know,like how could I ever live
without my mother?
And then 10 months later, shedied too.
As I said back then, it wasjust okay, well, where do I live
now and I just go live there?
And I cried when my mother diedbecause it was expected.
(14:56):
But once I got settled in thenext place, I think I cried
myself to sleep every night fora year place, I think I cried
myself to sleep every night fora year.
So there is, I think, thatdelayed.
You know, sometimes you justhave it, you can't absorb it.
Sometimes, like you, you werean adult but you had a lot of
(15:16):
work to do around his death.
You know a lot of us as adultswe have all kinds of
arrangements to make andfinancial things to settle.
When my brother died I was 20.
And the interesting thing wasmy husband then had found me.
I was driving on the street andhe found me and pulled me over
because my aunt, who I wasliving with, had told him so he
could tell me old.
(15:46):
So of course instantly was ashock.
But then my very first thoughtafter that was not in a
self-pitying way, just in a verymatter of fact way.
Well, of course he died likepeople die, because that was my
experience.
My parents died and now mybrother died and in some ways it
was a shock, but in some ways Ithink I skip over denial and
bargaining and go right toacceptance and that's probably
(16:09):
baked in from childhood loss.
And then of course, when my sondied it was extremely different
.
Yes, you know, it's your childand I was 44.
You know, it was a wholedifferent experience.
Daniela SM (16:22):
So because you have so much lost, are you not always
afraid that people are going tokeep dying?
Casey Mulligan Walsh (16:27):
Yes, Well , I'm laughing a little bit
because I just had an essaypublished in Hippocampus
magazine and it's a hermit crabessay, which I don't know if
you've heard of those, but it'swhen you write an essay, but in
a different container.
So, for example, it's when youwrite an essay but in a
different container.
So, for example, it's a recipe.
(16:47):
It's really an essay, but it'sa recipe or a crossword puzzle
or something like that.
So this was a Help Wanted adand the title was Help Wanted,
preemptive Griever andpreemptive griever is kind of
this term I've coined.
I haven't found it anywhereelse, but it's exactly what
you're talking about.
(17:08):
I could lay in bed next to myhusband and in like two minutes
or talk to one of my kids andhang up the phone and think and
that was the last time theytalked Like I have these whole
scenarios in my head and I don'tknow and I try really hard not
to do that.
So this essay was all very muchdark humor and so many people
(17:31):
wrote to me saying you're insidemy head, like it's exactly the
same thing that I do.
I don't.
It's never controlled what I do.
I mean, we travel all over theworld.
It's not like I'm protective ofmy children.
But it's always in my head likesave the voicemails, because
that could be the last time youhear their voice.
(17:52):
And again I think that isthat's kind of big.
Daniela SM (17:56):
I remember when I said I was young, right, and I
said, oh, you know, I wantchange, and then my mom left,
and so then I said it again, andthen my dad passed away.
So I'm like, okay, I will neverask for change again.
Casey Mulligan Walsh (18:11):
I don't want change anymore.
Yeah, right, which is tough,because as we learn, as we get
older, all life is is change,right?
Daniela SM (18:20):
Exactly Something that I crave and I like change.
Sometimes it comes to mind that, oh well, be careful what you
ask for.
Casey Mulligan Walsh (18:30):
I totally relate to that.
Daniela SM (18:32):
Yes, the part of spirituality.
How do you start to becomespiritual?
Were you religious before ornot religious?
How did this happen?
Casey Mulligan Walsh (18:43):
Well, it's interesting From the time I
was a very little girl, I thinkmy mother brought me to Sunday
school first, like when I wasfour.
The house we lived in then itwas right across from the church
.
It was in New Jersey, but I hadsuch a connection that we moved
quite frequently.
That was the other thing a lotof illness but also frequent
(19:03):
moves.
Everywhere we moved I somehowhooked up with a family who
would pick me up and take me tochurch.
I always had this big desire.
They were all kind ofProtestant Christian churches On
one level you could say well,it was like extended family.
We didn't have extended familythere.
They all felt like doting aunts.
You know all the people in theSunday school.
(19:25):
But I also did have this deepsense of being connected and
when I moved to live with thefamily big Irish Catholic family
they made me a good Catholicgirl in like three months flat.
So I was Catholic for a littlewhile and then in college I
remember being in the basementof the library with this huge
(19:45):
comparative religions book, liketrying to figure out where I
fit.
Then I married and moved tothis little town and for 25
years I was very involved in acongregational church when
things started really gettingdifficult.
I don't often mention where thisall came from.
There's this thing called ACourse in Miracles that a lot of
(20:08):
these tenets come from, but Iusually don't mention that
because there are a lot of faithsystems that believe these
sorts of things, things likewe're all connected, we're not
separate.
We keep ourselves safe andthink we're separate, but we're
not.
The biggest thing is, for me,is that everything that isn't
(20:28):
love is fear, and then if we'renot operating out of strength,
you know in a loving way whetherit's anger, jealousy or hatred
or any of that.
That's all based on fear, andit really helped me to see how
the things that other people did, even though they were hurting
me, weren't really about me.
You know that they werefunctioning out of their own
(20:51):
fear.
Um, it's, it's, uh.
When I was talking aboutchanges, um, inevitable, um.
I've mentioned a lot lately PemaChodron, who I really enjoy, or
.
One of her seminal books iswhen Things Fall Apart, and
that's basically what she'ssaying in there is that life is
uncertainty and so, rather thanscrambling to control everything
(21:15):
and make it certain and make itthe way you want it, we would
do much better to lean into allthis change and uncertainty and
see what it has to teach us, andthose were the kinds of things
that were helping me get througha really hostile, very
isolating situation during thedivorce.
(21:37):
But a big part of that is thatwe can't be separated, and so
when my son died, he had beengoing through a lot of
challenges too, but I had thispeace around the fact that maybe
this was just the life he wasmeant to live and we were just
finding it out now, but thathe'll always be with me, and of
(21:58):
course, it's not the same ashaving him here in body.
I wish he were here.
He died almost 26 years ago,but there are things every day
that make me know that he's withme.
Daniela SM (22:09):
Were you in this small town and you met somebody.
You started to read books.
How was this shift?
Casey Mulligan Walsh (22:22):
Well, I lived in this small town and I
worked in the local bank forlike almost 20 years and when I
was in my late 30s I knew thatif I didn't go back to school or
, you know, finish my educationor do something different, I was
going to be working in thissmall bank for 40 years and that
was not intellectuallysatisfying.
So I went back to school, Idrove an hour each way and
finished my bachelor's andmaster's degrees and became a
(22:44):
speech language pathologist andthen I got a job in a school
district about 40 minutes fromme.
So most of my life at thatpoint was not in this town, it
was, you know, with other people.
And there was a another womanand she's in the book who I was
very close friends with and weboth were kind of exploring this
together at the same time andwe were both going through some
(23:08):
very challenging personalcircumstances.
And that's a really goodquestion, because I think doing
this sort of thing or readingthese things in an isolated way
is very different from whenyou're kind of have this other
person to work through it with,and this is happening to me.
Well, let's think about it thisway.
(23:28):
One of the remarkable things,she actually was with me the day
that my son died and was in theemergency room with me, and we
just were flabbergasted at howall these things that we'd been
working through for a couple ofyears 100% were the things I
needed to hear and think and sayat that moment.
Daniela SM (23:50):
Yes, I feel like it's true.
When you have like a partner,somebody to learn something is
so much more interesting andalso you can discuss, get
understand it and deeper it.
Casey Mulligan Walsh (24:01):
Yes, yeah no, absolutely Absolutely, and
I think that you know, intraditional church situations
they would talk about that asfellowship and it's important
that we all come together.
And I also say that this kindof different way to see the
world was not instead of what Ibelieved.
It wasn't like now I'm notChristian and you know it just
(24:24):
made it more functional.
It definitely was not an either, or you know, it wasn't like I
was had a Christian mindset andsuddenly I became Hindu.
But a lot of these beliefs are alittle East meets West.
Right, it's a little kind ofBuddhism mixed with Christianity
.
West right, it's a little kindof Buddhism mixed with
(24:45):
Christianity.
And it just spoke to me.
It just really spoke to me in away that all the other things I
had embraced my whole life, itwasn't different, it just made
it functional.
It's not a good word, but itjust really brought it all alive
to me and made me able to findpeace and embrace it.
Nowadays, I'd say, all theseyears later, I just have a more
(25:06):
expansive view of spirituality.
I think it's.
We don't live in a worldanymore where we can think that
our way is the only way.
Right at the end of my book, Ithink my religion now is
kindness and compassion, All ofthose things that are basically,
are, or should be, the basictenets of any faith.
Daniela SM (25:26):
Yes, okay, I agree, I have the same belief as you,
for sure.
Yeah, that's amazing.
I'm glad to hear that youbecame stronger into what you
believe once your son passedaway, or the level that you were
was good enough.
Casey Mulligan Walsh (25:43):
You know that's interesting because as I
was writing the book, you knowyou have to come up with your
summary and your log line and,oh my gosh, forever.
There's two things that are alittle unexpected about my book.
One of them is that it's not abook about.
There are plenty of wonderfulbooks about.
I had this child, he struggled,he died and this is how I.
(26:04):
You know what I learnedafterward.
My son's death comes threequarters of the way through my
book, because the book is reallyabout me and the search for
belonging and the struggle.
But when I would writesummaries of the book, I finally
realized that the thing thatwas different is that I found
(26:27):
this new belief system and thisnew way to see the world that
gave me strength.
And then my son died.
So it it isn't like I had thishorrific experience, which it
was of losing a child and then Ilearned all these things.
It was a little bit the reverse, that I would kind of gone
through the fire for thosecouple of years before he died
(26:50):
and then when he died, it waslike this is what it was all for
and it just confirmed it, Ithink, affirmed and confirmed it
, and also somewhere in all ofthat, I really began to
understand what belonging reallyis.
So you know, a lot of us searchfor belonging, but what we do
(27:11):
instead is try to fit in, andfitting in is kind of being as
much like everyone around you asyou can be, so you don't stand
out, so everybody will justaccept you.
But belonging is is having thestrength to be yourself.
And and um, as one reviewerrecently wrote that I just loved
(27:34):
, is that sometimes people willreview your book and they see
things or say things in a waythat you never thought of, but
they're great.
And someone said somethingabout how you know all that work
at fitting in I'm thinking, I'mtrying to, you know, belong
that I'm really just fitting inkeeps you from having this
(27:55):
belonging that you really want,because you're trying so hard to
be like everyone else.
That's not true belonging.
And so I think that there's atime in the book when people are
coming to the house hundreds ofpeople the weekend that he died
, and I just realized that I'mnot alone and maybe I never was
(28:15):
alone, and that belonging becamemuch more real and deeper for
me then.
Daniela SM (28:21):
Interesting, being from different cultures and
living in different countries, Ialways feel like I don't belong
and I've been pursuing these inthe last six months, hoping
that where is it that I belong?
And to me is you mentioned that?
No, standing out.
I remember my mom always sayingbe brave and try to be
(28:43):
different, and I'm like that'sthe worst advice.
Casey Mulligan Walsh (28:46):
I know, I know, especially as a kid.
Daniela SM (28:50):
Yes, you don't want to stand out, no, no, no.
I realized, for example, whenwe were in Malaga, in Spain,
that I was different.
But I think people, when peopleare kind and friendly, that's
what I thought.
Okay, I belong here becausepeople are friendly and
accepting For me.
That's what belonging was like.
(29:10):
I can be myself, because I amme, because I'm different, is
true, but there is a community,people being open, open-minded
as well, to accept Other people,having compassion and
acceptance, not just you,because you're different.
Casey Mulligan Walsh (29:27):
Yeah, you know, we could have an
hour-long conversation, couldn'twe?
Just about fitting in andbelonging, because it's
sometimes in my life andespecially we think about
childhood and being teens.
The last thing you want to dousually is stand out, and I
think it saved me in many ways.
(29:47):
But there comes a time whensome of those coping mechanisms
no longer serve you and it youknow.
So maybe it helped me getthrough those very difficult
years when we were moving aliveand then when I was suddenly
sent to this whole new world,really in upstate New York,
there came a time midlife whereI realized that that behavior no
(30:08):
longer served me.
And another thing that comes tomind is that people will ask
often like why do you write?
That's one of those genericwriter questions.
I feel like I started writingessays, so I have a lot of
essays published and then,having written this book,
especially when you write memoir, then people, if they choose to
(30:29):
read what you write, they'reknowing the real you.
It's not the same as whenyou're seeing people in person
and there's small talk orwhatever, and I feel I think
more heard and more seen becauseof the book and because of my
writing than I ever did Part ofthis writing community,
especially people who writememoir or nonfiction, creative
(30:52):
nonfiction, are people who allhave interesting stories and
they all, most all, everyone Iknow is very open-minded because
we're all here to dig as deeplyas we can and be as honest as
we can for the reader.
So I think the writingcommunity is another part of my
(31:13):
feeling, that sense of belonging.
Daniela SM (31:15):
That's true, because you found, yeah, a group of
people that do the same as you,that's true, but also because
you know what you wanted A lotof people don't know what they
want, right.
They're still looking.
Yes, yes, yes.
You mentioned that you wroteyour book as a catharsis.
Casey Mulligan Walsh (31:32):
A lot of people will say, oh, writing can
be therapy.
I didn't start writing until 12years after my son died, and
then it took me 12 years towrite the book, so pretty much
25 years later.
That gave me a lot of time toalready have worked through the
trauma and the loss and thegrief although you grieve
(31:52):
forever, right, but writing isand can be therapeutic, which I
think there's a distinctionthere.
I was not writing for thatreason.
I was writing for the reader,although I think most of us who
write nonfiction, creativenonfiction, will say that you
learn things as you write, andpeople often say I don't know
what I think until I write it.
(32:13):
Sometimes, as you're writing adraft after draft after draft,
or kind of reverse engineeringyour understanding of what you
were doing back when you were akid or as a young adult, and so
the patterns in your life becomeclear where, if you were just
living them and not writingabout it, you may never come to
the place where you reallyexamine what were those patterns
(32:35):
.
I don't know about it beingcatharsis for me, but it was
clarifying for me.
I think that's the word I'd use.
Yeah.
Daniela SM (32:43):
You know you were ready before a situation happens
.
It's not like you go readyafter the situation happens and
you wrote a book way after youheal a little bit.
Obviously, as you say, you cannever stop being, you know, sad
about this losing your son, youknow talking about your book.
You were writing short storiesbefore, and then you decided to
(33:06):
write a book.
Casey Mulligan Walsh (33:07):
So in 2011, in the capital district of
New York, there's a woman whotaught writing in a town nearby
for many years.
Her course was called Writingwhat you Know, basically memoir.
There would be 20 students andyou go with a 750 word essay, 20
copies, pass it around, read italoud, everyone would write
(33:28):
comments and she would commentand I had never read my work
aloud or written anything forthat.
I always knew I was a goodwriter in terms of I wrote
diagnostic reports, all thosesorts of things, but that does
not mean you can be a goodstoryteller, right.
Two completely different thingsand I just really got hooked in
that class.
(33:48):
Then I also saw the reaction tosome of what I was writing, and
if people don't reflect to youwhat your life is, it's just
your life, right.
But then I'd write these piecesand they'd be like oh my
goodness.
I wrote essays from 2011 till2017, about six years regularly,
because we formed a group, we'dmeet every two weeks and we had
(34:10):
a deadline, so that kind ofmakes you produce work.
And then in 2017, I had heardenough and thought enough about
this that I just kind of roughedout the outline of what a book
would look like and I took kindof like the best parts of my
essays and plugged them inapproximately where they would
go, and it took from 2017, early2017 to the end of 2019 to get
(34:35):
one final draft which was 40,000words longer than the book.
So I just like wrote everythingand then the job becomes what
goes, what stays, what needs tobe tightened.
But, as I said earlier, Ithought I was writing a book
about relentless resilienceafter repeated loss and how you
can be knocked down again andagain and still get up and still
(34:57):
seek and find joy in your life,and that would have been a
perfectly fine book.
But when I realized, throughone of many webinars and writing
courses that I took, itsuddenly hit me one day that
it's really about the search forbelonging, then it seemed even
more like it would be of serviceto readers, because it is about
(35:19):
grief, but it's also aboutdifficult divorce and raising
kids who struggle.
But I think there are manypeople who have spent their life
searching for belonging for onereason or another.
That's how it became a book.
And what is the name of yourbook?
Belonging for one reason oranother.
That's how it became a book.
And what is the name of yourbook.
The book is the FullCatastrophe, all I Ever Wanted,
(35:42):
everything I Feared.
And the Full Catastrophe comesfrom Zorba the Greek who, boss,
asked Zorba, are you married?
And he said am I not a man?
Of course I'm married.
I've got the wife, the car, thekids the full catastrophe.
And so what I say is likethat's it.
John Kabat-Zinn wrote a bookcalled Full Catastrophe Living,
and he describes the fullcatastrophe as the poignant
(36:02):
enormity of life's experiencesall of it the bills, the deaths,
the joys, all of it.
And that's what I wanted.
I felt like I was in, isolate,I was just alone in the world
and I wanted that fullcatastrophe of life and family
life and friends.
And I got that and then I sortof had the literal catastrophe.
(36:24):
That's kind of a double meaning.
Daniela SM (36:26):
Yeah, that's very original, thank you.
And what about the cover?
How did you came up with thecover, the cover, so?
I can see it, but you have todescribe it.
Casey Mulligan Walsh (36:36):
Yes, so the cover first.
I'll say so.
I'm with a very small press,it's a traditional press but I
knew that if I wanted a like aprofessionally designed cover,
I'd have to hire a designer.
So I did hire a cover designer.
He had this concept right awayand we went back and forth on
details.
He said I think your book needsto be ironic or like.
(36:58):
Somebody needs to look at thecover and think, whoa, that's
not going to go well or that's adisaster about to happen.
There's a table, a very kind ofcottagey, farmhouse looking
distressed table, and there's avase full of pink tulips pretty
little vase full of tulips, butit's been knocked over and it's
(37:19):
about to completely go over.
You know, what's really funnyis it wasn't until the whole
cover was designed and the coveris mostly black and bright pink
and then the spring green ofthe leaves.
But it wasn't until the wholething was done that I realized
that the vase of tulips hasthree flowers and I had three
children and so that's symbolicas well.
(37:40):
But it was really.
I found that vase and I lovedit and I liked the colors, and
so it all worked out the way itshould and I really love my
cover.
I think the colors are striking.
It does evoke a sense ofsomething ostensibly beautiful
about to go horribly wrong.
Daniela SM (37:57):
Yes, it is actually very sexy.
I like it.
Casey Mulligan Walsh (38:01):
Thank you .
One other thing is that theblurb that I have on the front
cover, which came from ClaireBidwell Smith, who's very well
known in the grief space, doestalk about how all the ways loss
yields to love.
And it was really important forme to have that quote on the
front cover because, whilethere's a lot of symbolism in
(38:21):
the picture, there's nothingabout the cover and nothing
about the title that tells youit's a book about grief and loss
.
So I think that pull quote onthe front cover does a lot of
heavy lifting.
It's a searingly beautifultestament to all the ways loss
yields to love.
Daniela SM (38:37):
Yeah, that's beautiful.
Casey Mulligan Walsh (38:39):
Yes.
Daniela SM (38:40):
I love that you mentioned grief.
There's many levels of it, butfor me, lately, when your
children grow up, yes, they'restill there and they are adults,
and that's what we want to haveindependent children, but there
is somehow the grief of 20years that you spent taking care
of them, even though I was donebeing a mom who takes care of
(39:04):
kids.
Every time I see a picture, Imiss that so much and it's, you
know, a time that will nevercome back.
And I know when people say, oh,enjoy now because you will go
so fast, and so you don'tunderstand that until it has
passed and I think not that Iwould like to go back, that's
true, but however, there is thistime that is not here anymore.
Casey Mulligan Walsh (39:26):
No, it's forever.
I totally understand that.
Yes, that's so, so true.
And I think for me, because ofmy early losses, I even in those
moments I remember looking outmy kitchen window.
My in-laws lived like kittycorner across the street.
They were very close by and itwas lovely in a way, because the
(39:48):
kids just could go back andforth.
The dog went back and forth.
It was great.
But I used to look out thekitchen window and watch the
kids walking across the streetwhen they were little and think
someday you're going to wish youcould see this again.
Now I didn't realize it wouldbe because one of my children
would be gone, but I always hadthat sense that everything is
(40:11):
fleeting.
But now I look back, I havedifferent reasons too, of course
, but I look, had that sensethat everything is fleeting, but
no, I look back.
I have different reasons too,of course, but I look back at
the pictures from when they wereyoung and it's very bittersweet
, yeah, yeah, I totallyunderstand that.
Daniela SM (40:26):
And people say that it's empty-nester.
But I don't feel that two wordsmeans grief.
I think there's other feelings,emotions perhaps, or maybe
because it's too commercializedthe sentence it could be.
Casey Mulligan Walsh (40:39):
Yeah, I think that a lot of people feel
that when you know what theytalk about is like when your
child or your last child goesoff to college and suddenly your
role is different becauseyou're not actively mothering
anyone anymore.
And now, if you're married totheir father, now it's like, oh,
it's just you and me and whatdo we do with our time.
(41:00):
And I think that there is griefaround emptiness syndrome.
It's the grief over the loss ofa role you know and your
identity for all those years.
And if you had a number of kidsspaced apart, it was more than
18 years, right, it could havebeen 30 years, you know.
And suddenly, who am I?
Yes, yes, but yeah, I thinkthere is.
(41:23):
I sometimes look at pictures ofthe kids when they're young and
think, like you know, life getscomplicated as kids get older
and they come into adulthood,and not everybody moves from
their teen years into adulthoodsmoothly.
And there's just when they'relittle.
They're just a big ball ofpotential, you know, and none of
(41:47):
the the things that might getthrown in their path along the
way.
They haven't happened yet, youknow.
Daniela SM (41:53):
Yes.
Casey Mulligan Walsh (41:54):
We had so much control.
Daniela SM (41:55):
Yes, yes, and I like the way you say.
It's true, it's grief for therole that is not there.
I mean, I'm not a writer, but Iwrote some a piece of that.
I wanted to be comical as wellthat being a parent is actually.
It's a contract job that youare going to be let go for
certainty.
You know you're going tocertainly be let go.
(42:18):
Oh, that's great.
You work really hard,unconditionally, and then
eventually you're like sorry,you're fired.
Casey Mulligan Walsh (42:26):
Goodbye.
Yeah, I like that.
I like that.
I'd like to read that, yeah.
Daniela SM (42:33):
But yeah, so I like how you put it in perspective.
It's true, and again, griefcomes in many ways and it's not
a topic that people close to myheart and not many people
understand that.
I don't know, maybe alsoanother word that people don't
(42:57):
understand that, maybe becausepeople think belonging, oh, you
just want to be with the group,with the.
You know, you just want to bein, right?
Casey Mulligan Walsh (43:06):
I feel like we can't talk about fitting
in versus belonging withoutmentioning Brene Brown.
She wrote the book on that.
You know the difference betweenfitting in versus belonging
without mentioning Brene Brown.
She's wrote the book on that.
You know the difference betweenfitting in and belonging.
Even I'd say when I firststarted writing the book, I was
using those termsinterchangeably and then I
really learned, like, what thedifference is.
And I think a lot of times wedon't understand things until we
(43:28):
have words for them.
And if younger people couldunderstand that what you're
doing is fitting in, that's notthe same as belonging, that
could be really helpful asyou're growing up to understand,
even if there's times that youfeel like fitting in is the
right thing to do.
I don't think it's always thewrong thing to do.
Sometimes it's self protective.
But having a good sense of whatthe difference is, I think is
(43:51):
really important.
Daniela SM (43:52):
Yeah, that's wonderful.
Okay, so we talked about yourbook.
We talked about belonging.
We talked about grief.
Is there anything else that youthink that we should mention?
We talked how the book was made.
Casey Mulligan Walsh (44:03):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, no, I think we've
pretty much covered it.
Daniela SM (44:09):
It's been a wonderful conversation.
I want to know what is next forCasey.
Casey Mulligan Walsh (44:13):
Ah, that question.
I want to know what is what isnext for Casey?
That question, I always getthat question.
Right now I'm laughing becausemy book only released a couple
of weeks ago.
For the last maybe year notquite a year, but the last
several months I've said I'm nolonger a writer.
I'm now a full time bookmarketing executive.
But once I get back to and Ihave a lot of essays now still
(44:36):
that I'm working on placing,when you write a book like this,
one of the challenges is wheredo you stop right?
So when I finally decided wherethis story ends, I have a lot
of essays that could go into anew book about living with grief
.
10, 20, 30 years later, youknow, like living with grief and
(44:57):
joy and how you do that.
So that's one idea.
I also experimented with andreally enjoy a lot of
unconventional forms like microflash, like writing essays and
100 words or 250 words.
I'm the founding editor of a newliterary magazine called In a
Flash and we only accept piecesof 500 words or less.
(45:21):
And then there are other kindsof essays, like I mentioned, the
hermit crab essay or a braidedessay.
There's all these kind ofunconventional forms that I'd
love to compile some of theessays I have, alternating with
some of these more unusual forms.
I have a few pieces in placeslike HuffPost or Next Avenue
(45:42):
that are more media outlets,more mainstream outlets, and I
think I'd like to explore someof that too.
So I don't know.
I've got all kinds of ideas,nothing firm.
Daniela SM (45:53):
Yeah, well, that's good.
I mean, you have a lot of workon your hands.
Question for you what do you dofor fun?
Casey Mulligan Walsh (45:58):
Oh, well, we love to travel, so we've
done itching to get goingsomewhere again soon because we
haven't traveled in quite awhile.
We have 10 grandkids.
This is the second marriage,happily married for 22 years.
So between us we have 10grandkids, so they provide built
in fun.
I go in spurts with crochetingor things like that.
(46:20):
I would say the number onething on that list is travel.
Daniela SM (46:24):
Wonderful.
So where are you going next?
Casey Mulligan Walsh (46:27):
I don't know.
There's a difference betweentravel and vacation, and I would
really love to go on a vacationwhere you just like lay by the
water and you know whatever.
But we tend to be travelers,you know, and we tend to not do
group things.
We plan our own, you know.
We get Airbnbs, we rent a car.
Daniela SM (46:46):
Well, we have a lot of things in common too about
that then.
Yes, yes, we do, we do.
Yes, we have traveled the sameway.
We go on Airbnbs and we rentvehicles, and we've been
traveling around.
We went to the Balkan countries, traveled for a month there.
Casey Mulligan Walsh (47:01):
Yeah, we loved.
Yeah, I got a mission to getback out there, though.
Daniela SM (47:04):
Wonderful.
It's been a while Well.
Thank you so much, Casey, forsharing your story, and all the
best with your book.
I'm sure it's going to be verysuccessful.
Thank you.
Casey Mulligan Walsh (47:13):
Thank you so much.
It's been such a greatconversation, daniela, thank you
so much.
Daniela SM (47:17):
You're welcome.
Thank you, hi.
I'm Daniela and you've beenlistening to, because Everyone
has a Story.
Thank you so much for tuning into this beautiful conversation
with Casey.
To me, it's a powerful reminderthat joy and sorrow can live
side by side and that the needto truly belong is something we
(47:38):
all feel deep down.
If you enjoyed today's episode,please take five seconds to
think of someone in your lifewho might appreciate what you
just heard, or someone whosestory deserves to be shared and
preserved.
When that person comes to mind,send them a quick text with the
link to this episode.
That's how the ordinary magickeeps going.
(48:01):
Join me next time for anotherpowerful story conversation.
Thank you for listening.
Hasta pronto.
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