March 3, 2025 • 28 mins
Lukas Wünsch is a leading expert in Knowledge Management and Research, currently driving strategic initiatives as Senior Manager at MHP Management- und IT-Beratung GmbH. With extensive experience in developing and scaling knowledge ecosystems for global organizations, he has played a key role in shaping sustainable knowledge cultures and research-driven decision-making. Holding a Master’s in Management Consulting from Vrije Universiteit Amsterdam, Lukas specializes in integrating structured knowledge strategies with innovative research approaches. Passionate about enabling organizations to leverage knowledge as a competitive advantage, he continuously fosters data-driven insights and collaboration.
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Good morning from Munich, Germany. It's Lukas working
on knowledge and many other topics. Spent quite
a bit of time in consultancy and, yeah,
(01:24):
always running around with an open eye. Currently
working for MHP, which is a subsidiary of
Porsche, basically a big IT consultancy.
I have the official role of the head
of knowledge and sales excellence. One of my
focuses is on knowledge, and then it's really
about connecting it to sales processes and capabilities
that we have in order to keep the
machine running, in order to get our consultants
out to work. I love to work with
(01:45):
people in the knowledge as my topic, but
in the end, I'm also a people person
and I really like to engage with different
people who like my topics, who don't like
my topics. It's always, for me, the imperative
is really to connect with people
and to talk about what life is about
and to talk about how to move things
forward. I'm inspired when I can collaborate with
cool people, when I can collaborate with diverse
(02:05):
people, and when I can really push people
to the edge in a very positive sense.
So really bringing out new ideas, bringing out
new initiatives, and challenging the status quo as
we say, but I really mean that and
like to strive for a better future and
like to strive for
making things even better than they obviously already
are. One thing that's cool around me is
that I actually live three or four kilometers
away from where the Oktoberfest just happened. The
(02:27):
city is always going crazy in September and
October. We had roughly 7,000,000 guests in three
in two weeks, honestly.
7,000,000
people. Not like you just walked down the
street and came doc that's people that flew
there for Oktoberfest. It was quite a quite
a blast. Wow. That's amazing. I was I
spent one day at the Oktoberfest. It's always
enough for me as a very interesting Well,
it's kinda interesting when you talked about
(02:50):
pushing people in a positive way.
Is that with a carrot or a stick?
Yeah. And do you try to just inspire
them to do it themselves?
I'm on the carrot side of things. Right?
I mean, sometimes you need sticks. Yeah. When
the processes don't work as you intend them
to be or if if people are too
negative with regards to pushing change forward. Right?
Yes. Definitely more on the career side of
(03:11):
things and,
really try to walk the walk the talk
together with them. I'm not the biggest fan
of say, hey. Do this, and you're gonna
gonna be rewarded. I'm more the fan of
just doing things together,
developing ideas together, and, also having a joint
party once the job is done. Right? And
once Yeah. We actually move forward. So how
does an organization
as big as yours and I just looked
(03:32):
at your site, and you're about 4,500 people.
Is that right? Yeah. 4,500
people in a whole bunch of different countries.
How do you build a collaborative
environment? I think there's two streams to that.
One stream that's working more or less automatically
or that's that's driven by our main business
is really, collaboration on projects. We have our
center or hub in in Germany right near
(03:53):
near Stuttgart, but, in the end, we are
doing projects that involve people from different centers
in Europe, but also beyond. So I think
collaborating on projects across organizationally
units or across subsidiaries is really a main
driver for international collaboration.
The second driver is really on on the
knowledge side, right, really about connecting people and
and talking about topics that might be off
(04:15):
daily business, right, topics that might not be
in the daily business as yet, talking about
portfolio topics, talking about new technological,
things that pop up in our world where
we definitely need to get our heads together
and and shape them. I think those are
the two parallel streams that I would see
here as a main driver. Right? And the
third one might be our culture. It's really
our mindset
of how we wanna collaborate, how how important
(04:37):
partnership is, and how important it is to
really try for that joint vision of making
the world a better place.
That all sounds good, but I know some
people. And not all people are collaborative.
Not all work cultures
are set to do that either. So how
did your organization
build this culture?
Really, it sounds like what you have is
(04:59):
an organization that's organically
Yeah. People Part of that comes from our
origin as a consultancy. So, I mean, we
can obviously build borders, and we can strive
for building silos, but in the end, we
are only successful as a company once we
collaborate and once we deliver value to our
clients. So I think that's the, in the
end, the imperative that we strive for. On
the other side, our company up until beginning
(05:20):
of the year was built and, scaled by
one person that actually founded the company in
1996 as an entrepreneur, and he he built
the company.
He was in the role of a CEO
in the middle of the year actually, and
he kind of walked the talk until we
reached three and a half or 4,000 people
that we have right now. Right? So entrepreneurial
spirit, that kind of owner person and so
on also helped us on that, on that
(05:41):
pathway towards actually being a people culture.
That being said, obviously, we in like, in
every organization, in every set of people that's
more than one. Right? We have conflicts. We
have a kind of competition. We have challenges
and so on. But I think the overall
imperative for collaboration,
for driving for a joint target and so
on, right, this is an imperative of our
culture here. Yeah. When I meet people on
the street, it's not like, oh, who are
(06:03):
you? Not sure. Right? It's really open minded,
and people greet you, and people start to
interact with people there to ask questions. Right?
And that's not what you find in every
corporate nowadays. Right? Yeah. That's a fact. That
is a fact. Well, it's interesting to find
out that the entrepreneur
behind MHP
ran it I mean, that you you're talking
at least a decade and a half, two
(06:24):
to three decades.
That is amazing to take something from an
entrepreneurial
set from small and scaling up with it.
I've experienced myself as an entrepreneur.
I'm good at starting stuff,
but the growth and management is not my
bag. So it's interesting that this individual
had that whatever the magic was that made
(06:46):
that possible
and created such a culture. And I wanted
to bring up the idea of a consultancy
versus a sales organization.
I think there's a different mindset.
And depending on the corporate culture,
the consultancy is built to make each other
smarter in order to to serve whoever the
customer is. That's that's the ultimate goal. Right?
(07:08):
So that's where that collaboration gets a good
start. What advice would you give to any
organization
trying to get a more collaborative,
not agreeable, but collaborative
culture going at their organization? I think in
order to be really collaborative, you need to
look at the element that's involved in being
collaborative, meaning the people side of things. I'm
(07:29):
seeing that in my role as head of
knowledge every day more more or less, right,
that people kind of scientifically
join forces and and get into some top
down, defined projects. And now it's like and
I heard some speech about the con about
that at the conference in Berlin last week.
Really, those top down administered,
community groups or working groups or whatever you
call it. Right? It's like, hey, you need
(07:50):
to collaborate on a project. I find that
kind of dangerous because in the end, I
mean, I'm always a big fan of people
wanting to collaborate and people who have an
intrinsic motivation to actually strive for a topic.
I feel like one might go for a
blended approach in the sense of having some
top down defined projects and some bottom up
initiatives. Right? I think that's something that works
and that also fosters collaboration. But in the
end, one should be careful with the top
(08:11):
down defined groups. I mean, projects is fine,
but once you start kind of putting name
tags on on the project, I think you
should be really careful in the sense of
whom you put together. If it's top management
who puts together the project team or if
the the team can nominate themselves. It's a
small change. Right? It might sounds like, okay.
It's it's inefficient in the end. Right? Because
we need to wait for people to sign
up and so on. On the other side,
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if you look at the contribution that everyone
makes and the support and the commitment about
the, behind the project, right, I think that's
quite a change in perspective and quite a
change in speed.
That idea of creating
a project
and asking for who wants to work on
this project
seems like an alien concept to me in
my experience because,
(08:52):
you know, hey. We gotta get x done.
You, you, and you go get it done.
That's the normal.
I think the expectation
should go towards what you're saying where you
you set out the design and the purpose
and intent and the project.
Okay. Who wants to jump on this? Because
then you get people with passion that wanna
be there. And in the end, I think
that's also something that helped, talking about the
(09:14):
growth of our company in the past years.
I think that's also something that really helped
our development because we only grew organically, so
we didn't buy any company as yet. It's
a % organic growth up until today,
meaning that, people in the company for over
twenty years, some of them
I have quite close contact with and they
really live the company. They know it back
in the days, they knew everyone. So it's
(09:35):
like, oh, I don't know where to go.
I need to call a colleague x y
z. He'll he'll figure it out. I think
that's also something that's really that helps to
the company to grow organically,
that helps the culture to grow in a
way that we want it. On the other
side, it also helps if you twist it
around and think about those top down projects.
As long as management knows whom we have
and who knows what and who wants what,
(09:56):
that also makes things a bit easier and
and more efficient, let's say, also in a
top down setting as I just mentioned. It's
always a question of sizing, a question of
really who's the one deciding who's who's gonna
be on a project. Right? There was a
article, and I can't cite it right now,
but there was an article in the last
two years that said they predicted that middle
management, most organizations,
(10:17):
was gonna go away. Mhmm. Do you think
that's a valid
estimation of how things will work? Honestly, I
think that's gonna be even more important than
early on because companies are gonna grow. I
just spoke to one of my junior, leaders
in my team about the sandwich position that
she's in, the people from top and people
from the bottom that actually or people from
both sides, as I prefer to say. Right?
The people from both sides
(10:39):
are reaching out, coming up with, with requirements
and questions and complaints and you name it.
Right? So in the end, I think one
can always discuss the span of control of
leader of leaders. That's a discussion that's particularly
interesting and or vogue, let's say, in the
consulting industry. The the larger the span of
control, the more people you can manage efficiently.
That's a true point, and I get that.
Right? All the technological changes that we are
(11:00):
encountering, all the new tech that's coming up
that we really should keep up is the
people flag in the end. We're making sure
that we actually continue to take care and
to take even better care of our people
moving forward. And I'm I'm not sure if
that's gonna be feasible with that big distance.
And, on the other side, if if a
CEO or a c level is suddenly responsible
for managing, I don't know, a couple hundred
people, I'm not sure how that's gonna fit
(11:21):
their schedules. Right? Yeah. Right. It's definitely a
challenge, I would say. Yeah.
What would you say are your top three
tools as a knowledge management
professional
that you rely on heavily? I think Teams
is right now quite an important tool to
just to connect with people, to foster community
work, to interact on topics, to have some
(11:41):
first discussions. I'm not the biggest fan of
doing too much in in written, so I'm
more of a person that that likes people
to connect and likes people to interact with
each other. Email is fine, but I think
it's really about getting people connected. So I
think one thing is team slash outlook.
The other one might be our knowledge platform
that we built for our company. That's not
the most heavily used yet, but that's also
(12:02):
about cultural change, about getting the organization to
onboard even better than they already do on
our journey, which is obviously a long term
transformation.
The third one, having a hard time thinking
about the third one. Can I I the
way you talked about the collaborative element in
your organization,
the word that came to me was community
of practice? Yeah. I mean, would you say
(12:22):
that's a big part? It definitely plays quite
a big role. With us, it happens mainly
in Teams since we don't have another platform
for that. So that's why maybe it's maybe
it's about calendar management in Outlook. It's about
connectivity in the broader sense in Teams, and
then it's about our knowledge platform with collecting
content. Maybe that's the those are the three
forces that you might that we're looking for.
The thing you talked about onboarding folks into
(12:44):
this culture, I can't remember how you said
it, but it was absolutely genuine.
How do you hire to get people you
want that that are gonna be collaborators?
Funny because it just came out of a
training today where we talked about, introducing semi
structured interviews
for our recruiting process where we not only
look at the more content related aspects of
a candidate, but we also looked at competencies
(13:05):
and what's must haves and what's nice to
haves in terms of what we require.
In the end, I think it's really about
trying to find out as much as possible
about a person before you hire them. I
hear that quite a bit that people, especially
the technical space that we're working in, people
are looking at, okay, do I have cloud
certification x y z? Do we have this?
Do we have that? Do we have, all
the required work experience? Right? But in the
(13:26):
end, I mean, what we better should look
at as well, in addition to the more
content part, it's really about the personality, about
competencies, about collaboration skills, goal oriented leadership.
Client orientation, I think that's also quite a
big topic. Right? How to actually collaborate,
with your client in a in a very
efficient and effective way. Whoever that client is,
by the way. Right? It might also be
(13:46):
internal clients, internal departments that you collaborate with.
And I think the devil is really in
the detail and the devil is in looking
at both sides of things. I mean, it
doesn't help to hire someone who's, the most
collaborative person ever jumping on on the table
at every Oktoberfest party. Right? It doesn't help
to have the tech nerd either who doesn't
speak to anyone else. Right? I think there's
plenty of extremes here. What I'm trying to
(14:08):
say is I think it's really about looking
at different perspectives of people and making sure
that it's a good fit for the particular
position, but also one step further to look
at, okay, that's what we also discussed today.
Right? Are we hiring people for our team
or are we hiring people for our companies?
That's that's quite a Ah. Yeah. It's quite
a big question in the end. Right? I
mean, first of all, you obviously hire for
your team, but your team is not your
(14:28):
team is not working on an island, right,
without any connection to the outside. Whatever team
we're hiring into, we're also hiring into the
broader context of our organization
and into the broader context of our, of
our culture. That sounds like to me is
you're hiring it's a it's a dichotomy
of hiring for what you need today and
hiring what you're gonna need from five years
from now. Yeah. You're trying to future proof
(14:51):
where you're going
by making sure skills and aptitudes and and
all those things that people are
can adapt
to whatever's next.
It's about that. And it's plus, it's also
about kind of having people that fit the
broader mindset. Right? That fit the the culture
and so on. And that by doing that
work, one can also kind of throw the,
mobility within the organization. Right? I mean, consultancy,
(15:13):
when you talk about the classical consultancy, not
about corporate functions, we're reorganizing
almost every year. There's some smaller changes happening
every now and then, and that's totally natural
from the consultancies that I got to know.
But, what I what I'm trying to say
is as long as you have the right
mindset, right, people can adapt to a new
setting. I think it's about that general mindset
that that obviously also makes us future proof,
as you said, but it's also about really
(15:35):
mobility and also keeping the team, everyone engaged.
Talk about the entrepreneurial mindset. That's really important
within our company so that people are also
eager and willing and committed to change in
the end. Because, I mean, what what does
it mean to join an organization like that?
It means constant change. Right? It means adapting
to new topics. It means adapting to new
leaders, to new,
abbreviations, you name it. Yeah. That requires a
(15:57):
continuous learner.
Not all people
are engaged in continually
learning Yeah. And changing. Is that one of
the indicators
for when you hire? It's like, oh, what
was the last class you took? Or, you
know, what have you learned lately? Yeah. Or
or how do you That's a great question
here. How do you even evaluate
(16:18):
somebody if they are of that mindset of
wanting to learn? It's also about finding the
right mix within a different within a particular
team to figure out, okay, do we need
the tech nerds in here, right, just to
cover a topic with our client? Tech nerds
that stay in their house, they don't move
out of their home office. Right? And they
just do their job. Right? They're they're great
at doing that. And where do you need
the people that going back to Oktoberfest are
(16:39):
the first ones to dance on the table?
And then keep the client going and whatnot.
So in the end, I think it's really
about building the right mix. And to answer
your question, I think it's really about getting
those great, innovative, inspiring,
committing leaders and, and front figures that really
forward, create a pathway for future. Right? And
it can engage others. And then it's about
people who actually are first followers, second followers,
(17:00):
and so on. And then it's about people
who do a great job but are simply
not the most pushy person. Keeping that in
mind also when people when when people are
leaving the company and new people coming in,
people going out, people switching roles. It's not
about, okay, I look at that first of
Jan and then it stays the same. The
leader would like to wake up to and
look at every day in the end, or
at least once a week, right, talking about
team dynamics,
(17:21):
external influences, new projects, whether you name it.
What did you learn at the Kilometers conference?
And let's first title that. Okay. This is
the what Kilometers conference and where was it?
So I was last week, I was in
Berlin at a knowledge camp organized by the
German Association for Knowledge Management, GFWM.
Basically, a bar camp format by origin where
(17:41):
people can come with their topics. Basically, if
we were to take it to extremes, they
we wouldn't have an agenda, and we just
come together and
push our topics. What they did was to
have a combination of curated track where they
had, I think, 25 or so speeches.
And they also had three rooms available, so
I think almost 40 seats for
(18:02):
spontaneous topics. So it's quite nice. You asked
me what I learned on the conference. I
think a couple of pointers.
One thing is that knowledge workers in Germany
and in general share joint challenges. I also
talked about my approach for how I build
up knowledge at MHP, right, in my current
role. And, well, many people nodding in the
audience. Yeah. We're just about to start clapping,
right, because they were so engaged. It was
(18:23):
less about tech topics.
I was at another conference in in Dublin
in in June where we really talked about
the Gen AI impact on knowledge management and
the impact of knowledge management on AI. But
the Berlin conference was less, from my experience,
less tech focused. Obviously, helps me with the
more of the people mindset. I mean, even
though it was my first time going there,
it felt like a family gathering in the
(18:43):
end. Right? So I met some people from
before. It's like, hey. I only talk to
you by phone so far. I said, yeah.
I got to meet you. Right? And, yeah,
it was quite inspiring. Basically, we had a
blank miro sheet where people could fill their
topic, which to me was quite unusual. I
hadn't been to any bar caps before. Right?
But generally speaking, I think it's a great
approach for just getting to the topics as
they come up. So there might be spontaneous
(19:05):
topics that you woke up with. There might
be topics that and questions that you have
been carrying around for weeks and and months
and years. I find it quite engaging. Yeah.
I think it's a good mix. That is
a great community builder because I I saw
your face when you started talking about it
because you're like, it's a family gathering.
Now not all family gatherings are positive, but
this one was. I get it. Yeah. It
(19:25):
is a way to
network and connect and and collaborate
in a purposeful way. And I like the
idea that it was kind of do what
you like kind of free form a little
bit, like open mic night kind of thing.
So that's kind of fun and creative.
With that fresh in your mind, can you
define for me what you define knowledge management
(19:47):
is? That was a hard transition here.
I'm gonna try and grab the ball. I
think knowledge management is, I think it's about
knowledge and it's about management. Right? If you
take it in two words, knowledge is really
about everything one should know when onboarding, when
joining a new project, when
embarking on a new journey, everything one develops
and learned,
when going through changes and going through new
(20:09):
projects. It's quite undefined. It sounds quite fuzzy,
but in the end, that's what it is.
So from my perspective, it's not about finding
the right definition for knowledge
itself, but it's really about asking the relevancy
question and asking the relevancy
question not only from an organizational point of
view, but also on the very individual term.
Right? You also discussed the topic of exit
interviews again and again in knowledge that talking
(20:31):
to people who leave the company. I'm personally
not the biggest friend of that. From my
personal view, you should start this discussion when
people join and not when people are about
to leave or already are leaving. Germany, I
have a saying, don't stop people who are
traveling. So in the end,
I think that's where it's about, right, when
you talk about accident interviews, or don't hold
back traveling people. Right? Yeah. I like that
(20:51):
very much because you're right. It's counterintuitive
to some people to think, oh, you're helping
somebody out the door. But if they're already
heading out the door, what are you trying
to stop them for? Yeah. And, also, in
the idea that you're gonna try to get
some goodness out of them,
some knowledge and some tacit knowledge,
ideally, and it sounds like your culture does
(21:12):
this
fluently now,
is that you're sharing and developing knowledge
and collaborations
and expressing your knowledge as you go daily.
So it's not like you have to wait
till the end to say Yeah. Oh, give
us the goods. Give us what you got.
I don't think we are. I'm gonna have
a discussion with our CEO, incoming CEO in
four weeks' time. Right? And, I got the
(21:33):
question from him, like, how is exchange actually
happening in our company? How are people actually
interacting? Which I found interesting as a as
a first question from an incoming CEO. In
the end, that's really what it's about. And
that leads me to my second part of
knowledge management. And I'm quite sure that knowledge
is happening everywhere. Right? People learn new things
every day. No need to talk about that.
But for me, it's not about creating processes
for the sake of having processes, creating guidelines
(21:55):
and checklists and I don't know what. Right?
But for me, it's really about listening exercise,
listening into how people's everyday life actually looks
like, how it ought to look like and
how it should look like, and looking at,
the demands that we have in the company.
And to map those two, talking about procedures
and guidelines, there might be guidelines that actually
get to nowhere because people it didn't, a,
(22:16):
it didn't fit to people's everyday life and,
b, nobody needed that content. And, in the
end, that's really about finding the good match
between the demand that one has in in
a sales context, in a project context, in
an individual learning context, and mapping that to
or making that work in a way that
actually fits everyday life of our people. And
I think the challenge that we have right
(22:36):
now with the job that we have right
now with our knowledge program at MHP is
really to I think we have a good
understanding of the demand. We have a good,
and even better understanding of what we actually
need to make and bring forward and produce,
if you will. And on the other side,
we do plenty of people work, talking to
individual consultants, talking to top management, talking to
middle management.
I think right now, the big thing is
is to really put that into perspective and
(22:57):
and then building a pathway in order to
to really embark as many people as possible
on that journey. Right?
I'm gonna have to summarize it like this.
The interaction and engagement
of your people in the workplace
sounds like you're really kinda hanging your hat
on the idea of communication,
period.
Listening,
(23:18):
expression,
conversation,
have an opportunity
to be people Yeah. In an organization
versus heavy
to process and technology. And did you fill
out this report? Did you blah blah blah
blah blah blah blah. Yeah. There's gotta be
a mix of that because you've got
a dispersed organization,
(23:39):
a lot of things going on, so there
has to be expressed knowledge
captured somewhere.
Would you say you're about fifty fifty between
people to people and then people to tech
as far as your communication structures? We're definitely
higher on the people to people side. The
detect side is important. The detect side is
something that we wanna that we already worked
(23:59):
on and will be continuing to work on.
And we should start thinking about tech once
we have the people on board. My first
knowledge system was a SharePoint based application, and
they had a two step approval process for
uploading our content to a SharePoint platform. Surprise.
There were over 200 items actually stuck in
that approval workflow. And people were thinking about,
okay, why don't people contribute to the platform?
So
yeah. And in the end, I think it's
(24:20):
yeah. Wherever I turn, I end up in
the people side of things, right, in making
sure that people are on board. And then
as soon as we have people on board,
we can actually do something. Kind of, as
I said, it's it's the dusty SharePoint platform
because nobody actually uses it. Both things are
important, as you said. Right? It should be
sixty, sixty, 40 or so with 60 on
the on people side. Right? So I think
people is, in the end, more important slightly
(24:41):
more important than the tech side from my
personal view. Honestly, as you said, it starts
with people. It all started with your concept
of inspiration. Going back to the carrot and
the stick Yeah. How do you inspire somebody
to care
and to engage
and to be involved?
And I think most organizations
face that same challenge,
especially in an organization or an industry that
(25:03):
may have a lot of transitory people.
They come and go, so you don't have
any consistency to some degree. So it's always
gonna be a challenge.
Give me your final
thoughts on what advantage
does generative
artificial intelligence
provide
for a company. When you think about AI
(25:23):
Gen AI and the impact of organizations,
I often think about the tools and big
machines that are used in farming. In the
end, there was a life before, those machines
where we worked with the horses, where we
worked with cows, and, we did our farming.
We survived. We had some grain. We had
whatever.
With all those new machines that onboard, life
gets particularly easier for the horses, but also
(25:44):
for us, and we have an efficiency increase.
But it was possible before that. And that
analogy with regards to Gen AI, there are
some processes that are gonna be much more
efficient and effective
being supported by AI.
But in the end, we cannot deny that,
AI is not gonna substitute everything we do,
and it's definitely not gonna solve the people
problems and people challenges and people chances, to
(26:05):
put it positively,
that we have in our organization.
Technology can help us out on some standard
tasks and so on and maybe on some
more repetitive tasks, but it's definitely it's about
for me, it's about creating space for that
you can use for other more creative, more
innovative, more human. So in the end, what
I'm looking at is AI in sense of
artificial intelligence. Yes. Great.
(26:26):
But one should not lose sight of the
non artificial intelligence activity that we have that
the machine definitely doesn't have if you ask
me. Yeah. Well, you bring up a hot
point right there. The true creativities in the
human framework
to a degree. The unpredictability
of where things are gonna go with the
combination of bio
and tech someday,
(26:46):
we may enhance ourselves
to be more creative.
But right now, generative AI
is, as you said, it it brings a
better efficiency. Right? It brings a new efficiency
and ability that wasn't there before,
but will it be the end all?
Yeah. I I agree. It's yeah. I I
don't think so. I think it's gonna be
(27:08):
a new tool in our toolbox. Right? I
think it's gonna be a new tool in
our toolbox, but it's it's not about getting
rid of the old tools. Right? Jenny, I
can apparently solve every problem we didn't know
we had. Right? But,
yeah, maybe that's not the end of the
story. Yeah.
Alright, my friend. You have a great
conversation ahead with your COO.
Let's hear what things are going like in
(27:29):
another couple years. I'll give you a callback.
Will do. Looking forward to that. Thanks.
Thank you for joining this extraordinary journey, and
we hope the experiences gained add value to
you and yours.
See you next time at Because You Need
to Know. If you'd like to contact us,
(27:49):
please email
byntk@pioneer-ks.org,
or find us
on LinkedIn.
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Pioneer knowledge services welcomes you to the next
because you need to know. I'm your host,
Edwin k Morris. I serve as president and
founder of this organization, and we are thrilled
to offer this educational program. These design conversations
bring you people's experiences
(01:04):
from all over the globe in the field
of knowledge management, nonprofit work, and innovation.
Good morning from Munich, Germany. It's Lukas working
on knowledge and many other topics. Spent quite
a bit of time in consultancy and, yeah,
(01:24):
always running around with an open eye. Currently
working for MHP, which is a subsidiary of
Porsche, basically a big IT consultancy.
I have the official role of the head
of knowledge and sales excellence. One of my
focuses is on knowledge, and then it's really
about connecting it to sales processes and capabilities
that we have in order to keep the
machine running, in order to get our consultants
out to work. I love to work with
(01:45):
people in the knowledge as my topic, but
in the end, I'm also a people person
and I really like to engage with different
people who like my topics, who don't like
my topics. It's always, for me, the imperative
is really to connect with people
and to talk about what life is about
and to talk about how to move things
forward. I'm inspired when I can collaborate with
cool people, when I can collaborate with diverse
(02:05):
people, and when I can really push people
to the edge in a very positive sense.
So really bringing out new ideas, bringing out
new initiatives, and challenging the status quo as
we say, but I really mean that and
like to strive for a better future and
like to strive for
making things even better than they obviously already
are. One thing that's cool around me is
that I actually live three or four kilometers
away from where the Oktoberfest just happened. The
(02:27):
city is always going crazy in September and
October. We had roughly 7,000,000 guests in three
in two weeks, honestly.
7,000,000
people. Not like you just walked down the
street and came doc that's people that flew
there for Oktoberfest. It was quite a quite
a blast. Wow. That's amazing. I was I
spent one day at the Oktoberfest. It's always
enough for me as a very interesting Well,
it's kinda interesting when you talked about
(02:50):
pushing people in a positive way.
Is that with a carrot or a stick?
Yeah. And do you try to just inspire
them to do it themselves?
I'm on the carrot side of things. Right?
I mean, sometimes you need sticks. Yeah. When
the processes don't work as you intend them
to be or if if people are too
negative with regards to pushing change forward. Right?
Yes. Definitely more on the career side of
(03:11):
things and,
really try to walk the walk the talk
together with them. I'm not the biggest fan
of say, hey. Do this, and you're gonna
gonna be rewarded. I'm more the fan of
just doing things together,
developing ideas together, and, also having a joint
party once the job is done. Right? And
once Yeah. We actually move forward. So how
does an organization
as big as yours and I just looked
(03:32):
at your site, and you're about 4,500 people.
Is that right? Yeah. 4,500
people in a whole bunch of different countries.
How do you build a collaborative
environment? I think there's two streams to that.
One stream that's working more or less automatically
or that's that's driven by our main business
is really, collaboration on projects. We have our
center or hub in in Germany right near
(03:53):
near Stuttgart, but, in the end, we are
doing projects that involve people from different centers
in Europe, but also beyond. So I think
collaborating on projects across organizationally
units or across subsidiaries is really a main
driver for international collaboration.
The second driver is really on on the
knowledge side, right, really about connecting people and
and talking about topics that might be off
(04:15):
daily business, right, topics that might not be
in the daily business as yet, talking about
portfolio topics, talking about new technological,
things that pop up in our world where
we definitely need to get our heads together
and and shape them. I think those are
the two parallel streams that I would see
here as a main driver. Right? And the
third one might be our culture. It's really
our mindset
of how we wanna collaborate, how how important
(04:37):
partnership is, and how important it is to
really try for that joint vision of making
the world a better place.
That all sounds good, but I know some
people. And not all people are collaborative.
Not all work cultures
are set to do that either. So how
did your organization
build this culture?
Really, it sounds like what you have is
(04:59):
an organization that's organically
Yeah. People Part of that comes from our
origin as a consultancy. So, I mean, we
can obviously build borders, and we can strive
for building silos, but in the end, we
are only successful as a company once we
collaborate and once we deliver value to our
clients. So I think that's the, in the
end, the imperative that we strive for. On
the other side, our company up until beginning
(05:20):
of the year was built and, scaled by
one person that actually founded the company in
1996 as an entrepreneur, and he he built
the company.
He was in the role of a CEO
in the middle of the year actually, and
he kind of walked the talk until we
reached three and a half or 4,000 people
that we have right now. Right? So entrepreneurial
spirit, that kind of owner person and so
on also helped us on that, on that
(05:41):
pathway towards actually being a people culture.
That being said, obviously, we in like, in
every organization, in every set of people that's
more than one. Right? We have conflicts. We
have a kind of competition. We have challenges
and so on. But I think the overall
imperative for collaboration,
for driving for a joint target and so
on, right, this is an imperative of our
culture here. Yeah. When I meet people on
the street, it's not like, oh, who are
(06:03):
you? Not sure. Right? It's really open minded,
and people greet you, and people start to
interact with people there to ask questions. Right?
And that's not what you find in every
corporate nowadays. Right? Yeah. That's a fact. That
is a fact. Well, it's interesting to find
out that the entrepreneur
behind MHP
ran it I mean, that you you're talking
at least a decade and a half, two
(06:24):
to three decades.
That is amazing to take something from an
entrepreneurial
set from small and scaling up with it.
I've experienced myself as an entrepreneur.
I'm good at starting stuff,
but the growth and management is not my
bag. So it's interesting that this individual
had that whatever the magic was that made
(06:46):
that possible
and created such a culture. And I wanted
to bring up the idea of a consultancy
versus a sales organization.
I think there's a different mindset.
And depending on the corporate culture,
the consultancy is built to make each other
smarter in order to to serve whoever the
customer is. That's that's the ultimate goal. Right?
(07:08):
So that's where that collaboration gets a good
start. What advice would you give to any
organization
trying to get a more collaborative,
not agreeable, but collaborative
culture going at their organization? I think in
order to be really collaborative, you need to
look at the element that's involved in being
collaborative, meaning the people side of things. I'm
(07:29):
seeing that in my role as head of
knowledge every day more more or less, right,
that people kind of scientifically
join forces and and get into some top
down, defined projects. And now it's like and
I heard some speech about the con about
that at the conference in Berlin last week.
Really, those top down administered,
community groups or working groups or whatever you
call it. Right? It's like, hey, you need
(07:50):
to collaborate on a project. I find that
kind of dangerous because in the end, I
mean, I'm always a big fan of people
wanting to collaborate and people who have an
intrinsic motivation to actually strive for a topic.
I feel like one might go for a
blended approach in the sense of having some
top down defined projects and some bottom up
initiatives. Right? I think that's something that works
and that also fosters collaboration. But in the
end, one should be careful with the top
(08:11):
down defined groups. I mean, projects is fine,
but once you start kind of putting name
tags on on the project, I think you
should be really careful in the sense of
whom you put together. If it's top management
who puts together the project team or if
the the team can nominate themselves. It's a
small change. Right? It might sounds like, okay.
It's it's inefficient in the end. Right? Because
we need to wait for people to sign
up and so on. On the other side,
(08:31):
if you look at the contribution that everyone
makes and the support and the commitment about
the, behind the project, right, I think that's
quite a change in perspective and quite a
change in speed.
That idea of creating
a project
and asking for who wants to work on
this project
seems like an alien concept to me in
my experience because,
(08:52):
you know, hey. We gotta get x done.
You, you, and you go get it done.
That's the normal.
I think the expectation
should go towards what you're saying where you
you set out the design and the purpose
and intent and the project.
Okay. Who wants to jump on this? Because
then you get people with passion that wanna
be there. And in the end, I think
that's also something that helped, talking about the
(09:14):
growth of our company in the past years.
I think that's also something that really helped
our development because we only grew organically, so
we didn't buy any company as yet. It's
a % organic growth up until today,
meaning that, people in the company for over
twenty years, some of them
I have quite close contact with and they
really live the company. They know it back
in the days, they knew everyone. So it's
(09:35):
like, oh, I don't know where to go.
I need to call a colleague x y
z. He'll he'll figure it out. I think
that's also something that's really that helps to
the company to grow organically,
that helps the culture to grow in a
way that we want it. On the other
side, it also helps if you twist it
around and think about those top down projects.
As long as management knows whom we have
and who knows what and who wants what,
(09:56):
that also makes things a bit easier and
and more efficient, let's say, also in a
top down setting as I just mentioned. It's
always a question of sizing, a question of
really who's the one deciding who's who's gonna
be on a project. Right? There was a
article, and I can't cite it right now,
but there was an article in the last
two years that said they predicted that middle
management, most organizations,
(10:17):
was gonna go away. Mhmm. Do you think
that's a valid
estimation of how things will work? Honestly, I
think that's gonna be even more important than
early on because companies are gonna grow. I
just spoke to one of my junior, leaders
in my team about the sandwich position that
she's in, the people from top and people
from the bottom that actually or people from
both sides, as I prefer to say. Right?
The people from both sides
(10:39):
are reaching out, coming up with, with requirements
and questions and complaints and you name it.
Right? So in the end, I think one
can always discuss the span of control of
leader of leaders. That's a discussion that's particularly
interesting and or vogue, let's say, in the
consulting industry. The the larger the span of
control, the more people you can manage efficiently.
That's a true point, and I get that.
Right? All the technological changes that we are
(11:00):
encountering, all the new tech that's coming up
that we really should keep up is the
people flag in the end. We're making sure
that we actually continue to take care and
to take even better care of our people
moving forward. And I'm I'm not sure if
that's gonna be feasible with that big distance.
And, on the other side, if if a
CEO or a c level is suddenly responsible
for managing, I don't know, a couple hundred
people, I'm not sure how that's gonna fit
(11:21):
their schedules. Right? Yeah. Right. It's definitely a
challenge, I would say. Yeah.
What would you say are your top three
tools as a knowledge management
professional
that you rely on heavily? I think Teams
is right now quite an important tool to
just to connect with people, to foster community
work, to interact on topics, to have some
(11:41):
first discussions. I'm not the biggest fan of
doing too much in in written, so I'm
more of a person that that likes people
to connect and likes people to interact with
each other. Email is fine, but I think
it's really about getting people connected. So I
think one thing is team slash outlook.
The other one might be our knowledge platform
that we built for our company. That's not
the most heavily used yet, but that's also
(12:02):
about cultural change, about getting the organization to
onboard even better than they already do on
our journey, which is obviously a long term
transformation.
The third one, having a hard time thinking
about the third one. Can I I the
way you talked about the collaborative element in
your organization,
the word that came to me was community
of practice? Yeah. I mean, would you say
(12:22):
that's a big part? It definitely plays quite
a big role. With us, it happens mainly
in Teams since we don't have another platform
for that. So that's why maybe it's maybe
it's about calendar management in Outlook. It's about
connectivity in the broader sense in Teams, and
then it's about our knowledge platform with collecting
content. Maybe that's the those are the three
forces that you might that we're looking for.
The thing you talked about onboarding folks into
(12:44):
this culture, I can't remember how you said
it, but it was absolutely genuine.
How do you hire to get people you
want that that are gonna be collaborators?
Funny because it just came out of a
training today where we talked about, introducing semi
structured interviews
for our recruiting process where we not only
look at the more content related aspects of
a candidate, but we also looked at competencies
(13:05):
and what's must haves and what's nice to
haves in terms of what we require.
In the end, I think it's really about
trying to find out as much as possible
about a person before you hire them. I
hear that quite a bit that people, especially
the technical space that we're working in, people
are looking at, okay, do I have cloud
certification x y z? Do we have this?
Do we have that? Do we have, all
the required work experience? Right? But in the
(13:26):
end, I mean, what we better should look
at as well, in addition to the more
content part, it's really about the personality, about
competencies, about collaboration skills, goal oriented leadership.
Client orientation, I think that's also quite a
big topic. Right? How to actually collaborate,
with your client in a in a very
efficient and effective way. Whoever that client is,
by the way. Right? It might also be
(13:46):
internal clients, internal departments that you collaborate with.
And I think the devil is really in
the detail and the devil is in looking
at both sides of things. I mean, it
doesn't help to hire someone who's, the most
collaborative person ever jumping on on the table
at every Oktoberfest party. Right? It doesn't help
to have the tech nerd either who doesn't
speak to anyone else. Right? I think there's
plenty of extremes here. What I'm trying to
(14:08):
say is I think it's really about looking
at different perspectives of people and making sure
that it's a good fit for the particular
position, but also one step further to look
at, okay, that's what we also discussed today.
Right? Are we hiring people for our team
or are we hiring people for our companies?
That's that's quite a Ah. Yeah. It's quite
a big question in the end. Right? I
mean, first of all, you obviously hire for
your team, but your team is not your
(14:28):
team is not working on an island, right,
without any connection to the outside. Whatever team
we're hiring into, we're also hiring into the
broader context of our organization
and into the broader context of our, of
our culture. That sounds like to me is
you're hiring it's a it's a dichotomy
of hiring for what you need today and
hiring what you're gonna need from five years
from now. Yeah. You're trying to future proof
(14:51):
where you're going
by making sure skills and aptitudes and and
all those things that people are
can adapt
to whatever's next.
It's about that. And it's plus, it's also
about kind of having people that fit the
broader mindset. Right? That fit the the culture
and so on. And that by doing that
work, one can also kind of throw the,
mobility within the organization. Right? I mean, consultancy,
(15:13):
when you talk about the classical consultancy, not
about corporate functions, we're reorganizing
almost every year. There's some smaller changes happening
every now and then, and that's totally natural
from the consultancies that I got to know.
But, what I what I'm trying to say
is as long as you have the right
mindset, right, people can adapt to a new
setting. I think it's about that general mindset
that that obviously also makes us future proof,
as you said, but it's also about really
(15:35):
mobility and also keeping the team, everyone engaged.
Talk about the entrepreneurial mindset. That's really important
within our company so that people are also
eager and willing and committed to change in
the end. Because, I mean, what what does
it mean to join an organization like that?
It means constant change. Right? It means adapting
to new topics. It means adapting to new
leaders, to new,
abbreviations, you name it. Yeah. That requires a
(15:57):
continuous learner.
Not all people
are engaged in continually
learning Yeah. And changing. Is that one of
the indicators
for when you hire? It's like, oh, what
was the last class you took? Or, you
know, what have you learned lately? Yeah. Or
or how do you That's a great question
here. How do you even evaluate
(16:18):
somebody if they are of that mindset of
wanting to learn? It's also about finding the
right mix within a different within a particular
team to figure out, okay, do we need
the tech nerds in here, right, just to
cover a topic with our client? Tech nerds
that stay in their house, they don't move
out of their home office. Right? And they
just do their job. Right? They're they're great
at doing that. And where do you need
the people that going back to Oktoberfest are
(16:39):
the first ones to dance on the table?
And then keep the client going and whatnot.
So in the end, I think it's really
about building the right mix. And to answer
your question, I think it's really about getting
those great, innovative, inspiring,
committing leaders and, and front figures that really
forward, create a pathway for future. Right? And
it can engage others. And then it's about
people who actually are first followers, second followers,
(17:00):
and so on. And then it's about people
who do a great job but are simply
not the most pushy person. Keeping that in
mind also when people when when people are
leaving the company and new people coming in,
people going out, people switching roles. It's not
about, okay, I look at that first of
Jan and then it stays the same. The
leader would like to wake up to and
look at every day in the end, or
at least once a week, right, talking about
team dynamics,
(17:21):
external influences, new projects, whether you name it.
What did you learn at the Kilometers conference?
And let's first title that. Okay. This is
the what Kilometers conference and where was it?
So I was last week, I was in
Berlin at a knowledge camp organized by the
German Association for Knowledge Management, GFWM.
Basically, a bar camp format by origin where
(17:41):
people can come with their topics. Basically, if
we were to take it to extremes, they
we wouldn't have an agenda, and we just
come together and
push our topics. What they did was to
have a combination of curated track where they
had, I think, 25 or so speeches.
And they also had three rooms available, so
I think almost 40 seats for
(18:02):
spontaneous topics. So it's quite nice. You asked
me what I learned on the conference. I
think a couple of pointers.
One thing is that knowledge workers in Germany
and in general share joint challenges. I also
talked about my approach for how I build
up knowledge at MHP, right, in my current
role. And, well, many people nodding in the
audience. Yeah. We're just about to start clapping,
right, because they were so engaged. It was
(18:23):
less about tech topics.
I was at another conference in in Dublin
in in June where we really talked about
the Gen AI impact on knowledge management and
the impact of knowledge management on AI. But
the Berlin conference was less, from my experience,
less tech focused. Obviously, helps me with the
more of the people mindset. I mean, even
though it was my first time going there,
it felt like a family gathering in the
(18:43):
end. Right? So I met some people from
before. It's like, hey. I only talk to
you by phone so far. I said, yeah.
I got to meet you. Right? And, yeah,
it was quite inspiring. Basically, we had a
blank miro sheet where people could fill their
topic, which to me was quite unusual. I
hadn't been to any bar caps before. Right?
But generally speaking, I think it's a great
approach for just getting to the topics as
they come up. So there might be spontaneous
(19:05):
topics that you woke up with. There might
be topics that and questions that you have
been carrying around for weeks and and months
and years. I find it quite engaging. Yeah.
I think it's a good mix. That is
a great community builder because I I saw
your face when you started talking about it
because you're like, it's a family gathering.
Now not all family gatherings are positive, but
this one was. I get it. Yeah. It
(19:25):
is a way to
network and connect and and collaborate
in a purposeful way. And I like the
idea that it was kind of do what
you like kind of free form a little
bit, like open mic night kind of thing.
So that's kind of fun and creative.
With that fresh in your mind, can you
define for me what you define knowledge management
(19:47):
is? That was a hard transition here.
I'm gonna try and grab the ball. I
think knowledge management is, I think it's about
knowledge and it's about management. Right? If you
take it in two words, knowledge is really
about everything one should know when onboarding, when
joining a new project, when
embarking on a new journey, everything one develops
and learned,
when going through changes and going through new
(20:09):
projects. It's quite undefined. It sounds quite fuzzy,
but in the end, that's what it is.
So from my perspective, it's not about finding
the right definition for knowledge
itself, but it's really about asking the relevancy
question and asking the relevancy
question not only from an organizational point of
view, but also on the very individual term.
Right? You also discussed the topic of exit
interviews again and again in knowledge that talking
(20:31):
to people who leave the company. I'm personally
not the biggest friend of that. From my
personal view, you should start this discussion when
people join and not when people are about
to leave or already are leaving. Germany, I
have a saying, don't stop people who are
traveling. So in the end,
I think that's where it's about, right, when
you talk about accident interviews, or don't hold
back traveling people. Right? Yeah. I like that
(20:51):
very much because you're right. It's counterintuitive
to some people to think, oh, you're helping
somebody out the door. But if they're already
heading out the door, what are you trying
to stop them for? Yeah. And, also, in
the idea that you're gonna try to get
some goodness out of them,
some knowledge and some tacit knowledge,
ideally, and it sounds like your culture does
(21:12):
this
fluently now,
is that you're sharing and developing knowledge
and collaborations
and expressing your knowledge as you go daily.
So it's not like you have to wait
till the end to say Yeah. Oh, give
us the goods. Give us what you got.
I don't think we are. I'm gonna have
a discussion with our CEO, incoming CEO in
four weeks' time. Right? And, I got the
(21:33):
question from him, like, how is exchange actually
happening in our company? How are people actually
interacting? Which I found interesting as a as
a first question from an incoming CEO. In
the end, that's really what it's about. And
that leads me to my second part of
knowledge management. And I'm quite sure that knowledge
is happening everywhere. Right? People learn new things
every day. No need to talk about that.
But for me, it's not about creating processes
for the sake of having processes, creating guidelines
(21:55):
and checklists and I don't know what. Right?
But for me, it's really about listening exercise,
listening into how people's everyday life actually looks
like, how it ought to look like and
how it should look like, and looking at,
the demands that we have in the company.
And to map those two, talking about procedures
and guidelines, there might be guidelines that actually
get to nowhere because people it didn't, a,
(22:16):
it didn't fit to people's everyday life and,
b, nobody needed that content. And, in the
end, that's really about finding the good match
between the demand that one has in in
a sales context, in a project context, in
an individual learning context, and mapping that to
or making that work in a way that
actually fits everyday life of our people. And
I think the challenge that we have right
(22:36):
now with the job that we have right
now with our knowledge program at MHP is
really to I think we have a good
understanding of the demand. We have a good,
and even better understanding of what we actually
need to make and bring forward and produce,
if you will. And on the other side,
we do plenty of people work, talking to
individual consultants, talking to top management, talking to
middle management.
I think right now, the big thing is
is to really put that into perspective and
(22:57):
and then building a pathway in order to
to really embark as many people as possible
on that journey. Right?
I'm gonna have to summarize it like this.
The interaction and engagement
of your people in the workplace
sounds like you're really kinda hanging your hat
on the idea of communication,
period.
Listening,
(23:18):
expression,
conversation,
have an opportunity
to be people Yeah. In an organization
versus heavy
to process and technology. And did you fill
out this report? Did you blah blah blah
blah blah blah blah. Yeah. There's gotta be
a mix of that because you've got
a dispersed organization,
(23:39):
a lot of things going on, so there
has to be expressed knowledge
captured somewhere.
Would you say you're about fifty fifty between
people to people and then people to tech
as far as your communication structures? We're definitely
higher on the people to people side. The
detect side is important. The detect side is
something that we wanna that we already worked
(23:59):
on and will be continuing to work on.
And we should start thinking about tech once
we have the people on board. My first
knowledge system was a SharePoint based application, and
they had a two step approval process for
uploading our content to a SharePoint platform. Surprise.
There were over 200 items actually stuck in
that approval workflow. And people were thinking about,
okay, why don't people contribute to the platform?
So
yeah. And in the end, I think it's
(24:20):
yeah. Wherever I turn, I end up in
the people side of things, right, in making
sure that people are on board. And then
as soon as we have people on board,
we can actually do something. Kind of, as
I said, it's it's the dusty SharePoint platform
because nobody actually uses it. Both things are
important, as you said. Right? It should be
sixty, sixty, 40 or so with 60 on
the on people side. Right? So I think
people is, in the end, more important slightly
(24:41):
more important than the tech side from my
personal view. Honestly, as you said, it starts
with people. It all started with your concept
of inspiration. Going back to the carrot and
the stick Yeah. How do you inspire somebody
to care
and to engage
and to be involved?
And I think most organizations
face that same challenge,
especially in an organization or an industry that
(25:03):
may have a lot of transitory people.
They come and go, so you don't have
any consistency to some degree. So it's always
gonna be a challenge.
Give me your final
thoughts on what advantage
does generative
artificial intelligence
provide
for a company. When you think about AI
(25:23):
Gen AI and the impact of organizations,
I often think about the tools and big
machines that are used in farming. In the
end, there was a life before, those machines
where we worked with the horses, where we
worked with cows, and, we did our farming.
We survived. We had some grain. We had
whatever.
With all those new machines that onboard, life
gets particularly easier for the horses, but also
(25:44):
for us, and we have an efficiency increase.
But it was possible before that. And that
analogy with regards to Gen AI, there are
some processes that are gonna be much more
efficient and effective
being supported by AI.
But in the end, we cannot deny that,
AI is not gonna substitute everything we do,
and it's definitely not gonna solve the people
problems and people challenges and people chances, to
(26:05):
put it positively,
that we have in our organization.
Technology can help us out on some standard
tasks and so on and maybe on some
more repetitive tasks, but it's definitely it's about
for me, it's about creating space for that
you can use for other more creative, more
innovative, more human. So in the end, what
I'm looking at is AI in sense of
artificial intelligence. Yes. Great.
(26:26):
But one should not lose sight of the
non artificial intelligence activity that we have that
the machine definitely doesn't have if you ask
me. Yeah. Well, you bring up a hot
point right there. The true creativities in the
human framework
to a degree. The unpredictability
of where things are gonna go with the
combination of bio
and tech someday,
(26:46):
we may enhance ourselves
to be more creative.
But right now, generative AI
is, as you said, it it brings a
better efficiency. Right? It brings a new efficiency
and ability that wasn't there before,
but will it be the end all?
Yeah. I I agree. It's yeah. I I
don't think so. I think it's gonna be
(27:08):
a new tool in our toolbox. Right? I
think it's gonna be a new tool in
our toolbox, but it's it's not about getting
rid of the old tools. Right? Jenny, I
can apparently solve every problem we didn't know
we had. Right? But,
yeah, maybe that's not the end of the
story. Yeah.
Alright, my friend. You have a great
conversation ahead with your COO.
Let's hear what things are going like in
(27:29):
another couple years. I'll give you a callback.
Will do. Looking forward to that. Thanks.
Thank you for joining this extraordinary journey, and
we hope the experiences gained add value to
you and yours.
See you next time at Because You Need
to Know. If you'd like to contact us,
(27:49):
please email
byntk@pioneer-ks.org,
or find us
on LinkedIn.
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