September 26, 2024 • 26 mins
Kim Sherwin is the Director, Knowledge at Aurecon. Kim is a Librarian by trade and has 20+ years of experience in libraries and knowledge management across a range of sectors including engineering, design and advisory consulting, law, defence, public libraries, tertiary and higher education, in both the UK and Australia. Kim has a strong interest in the people and culture aspects of knowledge sharing and has a soft spot for communicating the value it can bring.
Kim Sherwin (she/her) BA(Hons), MA, MCLIP, AALIA
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:12):
Pioneer Knowledge Services is welcomes you to the
next because you need to know. I'm your
host, Edwin k Morris. I serve as president
and founder of this organization, and we are
thrilled to offer this educational program. These design
conversations
bring you people's experiences from all over the
globe in the field of knowledge management, nonprofit
(00:32):
work, and innovation.
Thank you for listening to Because You Need
to Know, the reference podcast in knowledge management.
My name is Soni Tonebe. As an art
administrator,
Because You Need to Know has been my
go to podcast and has helped me hone
(00:53):
my management skills. Please consider sponsoring the podcast
with your business.
My name is Kim Sherwin. I live in
Sydney, Australia. I'm currently working at Aurecon as
the Director of Knowledge.
I've worked for 23 years in the field
of libraries and knowledge.
(01:14):
If I was stranded on a desert island,
the three things I must have would be
my partner,
our record player, and our vinyl collection.
I think we'd be okay.
The absolute best piece of advice I was
ever given was don't spend too much time
on the things you love. You'll only end
up resenting it. And that was from a
senior leader that I once worked with. It's
(01:36):
so true.
The last book that I read is a
book called Chabs. It's about working class in
the UK because I have an absolute fascination
with, social class and particularly from the country
where I was born. Can you just give
me the spelling of the title? I didn't
catch it. C h a b s.
Chabs. Chabs. Chabs. Does that mean something? Is
that a It stands for Cheltenham average. So
(01:59):
it's a expression used,
related to a pocket of the working class.
Uh-huh. And probably not in a positive light,
I've taken it.
Depends which side.
Okay.
Kim, how does a librarian
crossover because I I see them as not
(02:20):
the same. How does a librarian crossover to
knowledge management?
Great question. And I'm not sure I have
the technical answer, but my little journey was
I fell into it.
I got asked one day when I started
a new role, I was in the role
of senior librarian, and one day somebody said
to me, in fact, day 2 of that
role, would you like to do knowledge? You
look like you'd be good at knowledge, and
(02:40):
I went,
sure.
Why not?
They they actually said,
you look like you'd be good at knowledge.
That would look good on you, you know,
like it's a fashion statement.
What was your impression?
Like,
I don't know what you're talking about. What?
I mean, I Yeah. So I was day
(03:00):
2 in the role, and I'm not gonna
say no. So I just said yes, and
I thought, well, we'll work it out. And,
and kind of some almost 10 years later,
I'm I'm still working it out, but I
can definitely see
over the last few years where the connection
lies.
And a lot of it is around my
my library background is really was focused on
(03:21):
research,
so I was interested in kind of original
source material and finding that. And then for
me, knowledge is the extension of that, and
it's turning information
into knowledge where people's experience is therefore applied.
What's the scope of knowledge being managed in
your current position as director?
I mean, are you are you all internal
(03:43):
facing kind of knowledge management or external? Or
We're all internal facing. So I I work
at a company called Oricon, and we have
just under 7,000 people who are part of
the organization
spread across Australia, New Zealand, and into Asia.
And the remit of my team is to
support and to encourage,
I guess, a culture of knowledge sharing,
(04:05):
where knowledge is of, in effect, our largest
asset at the organization, the knowledge of our
people, and and it's what we sell to
our clients.
So there's a real emphasis on encouraging
the sharing of knowledge so that we're not
starting from scratch every time. We're learning as
we go, and therefore, we can be better
at serving our clients when we pull our
collective knowledge. So there's been a little hubbub
(04:26):
in the last 6 months about the terminology
of calling knowledge an asset.
And some of the pushback is, well, that's
an economic term. It means a hard tack
kind of either money or some
asset.
So do you see it as a difference
at all, or is it just a fluid
knowledge is an asset? I try not to
(04:48):
get caught up on the words and the
semantics around all of this. Yeah. To me,
I kind of like to talk in the
language of the business.
You know, we do talk in the language
of assets, and we we we pay for
assets, and assets are our people. You know?
And we also build and design assets.
So there's, I guess, there's lots of levels
to the word asset. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So
(05:09):
I yeah. Try not to get too caught
up on it because I I often find
myself in kind of in the spiral of
decline Right. Rather than actually trying to do
stuff with knowledge. Yeah. And I agree. I
had that conversation
with someone recently, and it just seems to
be the spiral effect of
blah blah blah blah. Let's just forget about
trying to chase that, and let's just do
(05:30):
something. Yep. So I'm with you. The organization
or let's let's talk about what your
branch from librarianship
and your history, what set you up to
look good for knowledge?
What set you up? Was it your haircut?
Was it the the attitude in your eye?
Was it your resume?
(05:51):
What made you
be really good at knowledge management?
That's that's a really great question. I think
part of me just I have this can
do attitude. I'm really enthusiastic.
And so when an opportunity comes along, much
like, oh, you look like you'd be good
at knowledge, I just say yes, and we'll
work it out.
(06:11):
Just just take it. And, you know, that's
been to my detriment at at times, like
I've taken on too much. Sure. But also,
it's kind of working in organizations that give
you the freedom and the scope to go
try things. And then if it's not what
it should be, you'd encourage to change it.
But it's really just trying to progressively or
incrementally move things forward. And I think just
(06:32):
taking these opportunities and kind of having an
open mind about where your career goes, I
think it's just there's no secret sauce for
me. It's just being open.
Okay.
It kinda sounds like you have an entrepreneurship
kind of vibe.
There's a bravery
around what you just went through in your
example of what happened
(06:54):
that you just said, okay. I'll sure. Let
you know, I'll figure it out later.
Because you're there's something that is inside you
that says, hey. Nothing ventured, nothing gained. Right?
So where does that come from?
I think oh, this is a Nice. Sure
where we I know. Right? So let's let's
(07:14):
back up the way back machine
and think about that. Did you have a
family member that was a small business person?
Did you have
some kind of imprint from a neighbor, from
a teacher? Or
I'm just curious where the spark came from,
or
is it just genetic in your family? Is
everybody like that in your family?
(07:36):
To
a to a point, I don't have an
entrepreneurial
family.
It's almost a personality type for me. I
just get really excited
about doing new things and challenging the status
quo and people seeing value in what I
can contribute, and and it kinda gives me
a warm and fuzzy feeling, so I just
go for it. And and I've been lucky
(07:57):
that I've worked in organizations that have supported
me with being a bit lofty at times,
and and just giving stuff a go. So
I wish there was a kind of a
planned answer to that one. Yeah. Well, and
I I bring that up because people just
assume things
that the role you fell into,
that that's normal.
(08:18):
And maybe it is, or maybe it's not.
But I really wanted to pinpoint that your
reaction
was probably more not normal for most people
would be my guess. I think
what you did was
like I like you said, on day 2,
you're like, sure. You know? I think a
lot of people would have said, well, let
me let me think about you know, or
(08:39):
or whatever. They'd have been pushed back at
some level, and you just jumped in. So
I'm I'm more interested in
how that has served you
to bring to what you're at now.
I think Was this the first incidence that
you can think of that you just said,
sure. Let's go. Yeah. I think I think
professionally. Yeah. And to have that door opened,
(09:01):
I think, was oh, somebody can say what
I'm potentially capable of, so I'll latch on
to that. I think also with my library
background as well, like, libraries are very expensive.
The value is immense,
but they also cost a lot of money.
I think trying to demonstrate value has always
been something that I've been quite passionate about,
(09:22):
and and I have a little motto, like,
you know, do something, tell someone, because
libraries need to fly their flag. And I
guess that probably was where my response or
enthusiasm to to step into knowledge came from.
Is is this gonna help with the library
stuff? Is this gonna help with my own
profile? Is this gonna help with our team?
Absolutely, it did, and it's opened so many
(09:43):
doors for me, But it's I think it's
coming from the goodness. We are an expensive
resource. We better show some value here. Mhmm.
Let's talk about that. You said you work
in an industry and or organization that
pretty much has everything labeled with an economic
factor. You're proven plus or minus on the
scale here of economic cost,
(10:05):
or investment.
What are the things that you really tell
as far as the value exchange
in the role that you do and what
you do with the company, what are some
of the indicators that say, oh, look at
that, look at this, look at that?
Stories.
So I think for me, a key piece
around all of this is communication.
(10:26):
Back to what I said before, do something,
tell someone. If we're not out there beating
our own drum,
nobody will do it for us. And it
it also it's about how you tell the
stories. It's not our check the knowledge team
out.
It's more positioning other people and trying to
find ways to make others shine
is is what kind of what I'm I'm
really quite interested in, but then quite crude
(10:48):
metrics about round number of thumbs on seats
at events that we might run, number of
engagements with a post. But, you know, trying
to capture the true value of knowledge is
a really, really difficult one. So how are
these stories
being captured and shared and developed? In my
team, I'm lucky enough to have somebody who
has a role of communications.
We have a dedicated role who works on
(11:10):
sharing those stories.
It's also as being more aware of what's
actually happening across the business. So we can
then on share that kind of stuff because
we get a lot of people coming to
us as almost a signpost within the business.
Where do I find? What do I do?
We use things like, you know, the the
catchily new newly titled Veeva Engage, formerly known
as Yammer,
(11:31):
to share to share stories on. We've got
a very strong relationship with our internal comms
team.
We run some quite high profile events in
the organization,
so it's being visible. And we also have
a brand in the organization as well so
people know its knowledge
and can see the kind of the culture
that we're trying to drive. Do you find
that the corporate culture and or strategic
(11:54):
plan has you front and center?
I mean, are you like, hey. Look. We're
right here. This is what our role is.
We're very much kind of a silver thread
throughout the whole of our our corporate plan.
And we sit as part of a broader
eminence digital and innovation team, which is kind
of almost a fundamental,
and what we class as a core winning
(12:15):
strength of our organization.
Knowledge also appears in the onboarding process. Mhmm.
It also appears in the what we call
our let's talk process, so that's kind of
our performance review. So we're trying to find
ways of making or having knowledge more integrated
in how our con works Yeah. Rather than
a thing at the end when Yeah. People
(12:35):
got no time to collect knowledge.
It's a challenge.
You've used the word culture multiple times, and
it sounds like
your
silver thread concept is that it is woven
to strengthen the culture.
You you call it that? Would that be
right? That's what my long term aspiration
(12:57):
is. We talk knowledge. Like, it's very much
in the vocabulary of the organization.
I'd like us to to go further and
it for it to be ingrained
in everything we do. But we're not there
yet, but we've we've made huge inroads over
the last few years. You know, it's that
once you start establishing
the image and the value that it can
create,
(13:18):
then it's just easier.
You know, it's no longer a hard sell
Mhmm. And it starts to build. That momentum
starts to build and people talk. Right? Mhmm.
Going back to the culture,
that's best way to get some kind of
word-of-mouth Mhmm. Grassroots kind of approach.
Is it something that is that for you?
I mean, is your strategy
(13:39):
in rolling out the Kilometers,
is it, top down, would you say, or
is it grassroots
bottom up? We're trying to go for all
angles
because I don't think one approach is gonna
get us the desired outcome, so we have
to look at it, like, in the middle.
We also need to look at who our
key stakeholders are, so we work quite closely
(13:59):
with what we call our capability leaders.
It's like communities of practice. So we're trying
to have knowledge part of every stage of
how Aurecon currently works.
And also what one decision that we made
I mean, I've only been at the organization,
just under a year, but one decision we
made fairly soon after I joined was we
were gonna drop the use of the word
(14:20):
management from knowledge management. Mhmm. And that was
quite a a deliberate thing on my part
because
I wanted to shift the dial with how
the team was perceived.
We're here to facilitate the sharing of knowledge.
We're not here to manage everybody's knowledge because
we're a very, very small team,
and it's just the the expectation that that
puts on what the role of our team
(14:40):
is is immense. So this has really helped
with trying to position us as about the
culture of sharing knowledge,
not necessarily the formalized process of sharing knowledge.
So it kinda sounds that you've
encapsulated
your efforts around
what I would term learning
and development or learning
and training. You're you're trying to get skills
(15:02):
and behaviors
reinforced Yeah. Throughout the organization. Right? Yeah. It's
absolutely more about behavioral things,
about what's gonna drive people to share, and
what are the reasons people don't share. And,
you know, we know we have a couple
of questions in our
organizational
survey
about knowledge, and we know some of the
barriers, and so we're trying to work with
(15:23):
those barriers.
You get a great insight from across the
breadth of our business about the pain points
and also our opportunities. We're really using that
feedback to drive where we go as well.
In the future
of your organization
and most organizations
that have transitioned
to a digital workspace or work
(15:43):
much more robust digital platforms,
where does the role of the human fit
in critical thinking?
The human is center to all of this,
much like what I shared at the beginning.
It's the asset of knowledge which derives from
the human is central to where this all
goes.
We have a knowledge strategy, 3 pillars. The
(16:04):
middle pillar is around nurturing a knowledge sharing
culture, and that recognizes the role of the
human, the center to where this goes. You
know, we talk about the future, the kind
of the future feels like it's here at
the moment with artificial
intelligence.
Right.
And that that Every day is a new
day. You know? So
(16:25):
And we can't talk about AI
without talking about humans.
And and I think absolutely a fundamental role
for the human to play both in terms
of content contribution,
but then in also output validation
and critical thinking. And I think we're gonna
see a shift with the investment that we
put into helping people with AI literacy and
(16:48):
digital literacy. What is the key attribute a
person if you're gonna look to expand your
team in the knowledge work, knowledge and innovation,
what's the key attribute you seek? Somebody who
is open minded and willing to give it
a go without having all of the answers
because
that's something I've picked up throughout my career.
(17:09):
You can be an expert in something, but
you can't know all of the answers. And
particularly,
given this move to AI Mhmm. We're kind
of living and breathing it as it's evolving.
You can't be an expert in all of
this. So you have to surround yourself with
people who know more than you do about
things that you don't know about and kind
of work as as very much as a
part of a team. Well, that's part of,
(17:31):
just the the whole human
competition
and the ego
that has to kinda get tamped down a
little bit in order to have full collaboration
actually happen. Mhmm. So there's maturity there. Yes.
Absolutely. Because
I I think early on in my career,
I thought I could do it all, and
I thought I knew it all. I'm not
(17:51):
trying to sound like a smart ass or
anything.
But but you do, and you got it,
you know, you got a university and think
you're being spat out as an expert
when the reality of when you hit the
workplace
is quite different. And and particularly given the
type of organization that I work in is
we're so broad in terms of the disciplines
that we cover. There's there's no way that
(18:12):
you could possibly know at all. I think
it's it's that adaptability,
and I think that's where my, I guess,
my librarian skills and working in different sectors
have really kind of helped me. You don't
need to know the subject matter. It's the
skills that you've got Yeah. To help work
with the experts. I would agree with that.
I think, a generalist
is probably gonna prove
(18:34):
top of the heap in another 20 years
Mhmm. That has a little bit of everything.
And
but not only the breadth and maybe a
mile wide and an inch deep, right, of
knowledge.
They also have to have comprehension in that
that critical skill thing because
you can have all this. You can have
this wide view and spectrum.
(18:55):
But if you don't have the comprehension to
understand
and be a broker for someone else of
all that knowledge,
it's useless. Yeah. Absolutely. And I think that's
a great word, a broker.
And it's also you need to be very
well connected
as well. So, you know, as I said,
we we often use this as signpost, but
we take every opportunity to meet new people
(19:16):
where we can.
And then, oh, I had this conversation with
x, y, and zed. Mhmm. And now somebody
else has come, and I can connect those
2. So we're very much in the business
of connecting the dots as well. Yeah. You're
not connecting the dots just to facilitate a
requirement of your place. You're you're doing it
out of just inquiry. You've got an inquiring
(19:37):
mind that wants to learn or understand more.
Yes. Yep. Absolutely. Well, in your learned years,
what would be your definition of knowledge
and management if we had management
after knowledge? What would that definition be?
No. I mean, for me, knowledge is very
much about people's
(19:57):
experiences
and insights
and then the application of their wisdom, and
then the value comes from sharing it with
others
in whatever means or medium.
And I think one of my observations of,
you know, last few years in in the
industry is people get caught up on what
knowledge management means. I think it's more what's
(20:18):
under the hood and particularly in type of
organization that I work. People just want kinda
wanna loosely know what you do, but it's
more about the value that you bring. Mhmm.
So I think very much knowledge or knowledge
management
is dependent on the type of organization. There's
some core principles, absolutely,
but it's really what the organization that you're
operating in needs and where the value lies
(20:39):
for for that business. In your description, it
sounds more of a community resource
or a community
Absolutely. Effort. Yeah. Because we're a large organization,
and everybody has got something to contribute to
helping move Aurecon forward.
For me, knowledge also needs to be an
inclusive concept
where if you work in an enterprise services
(21:00):
team, if you're part of the people team
or, you know, HR, finance, legal,
comms, you've all got valuable knowledge to share
to help move things forward. So it's, I
guess, it's almost this individual aspect,
but the the combination of the individuals
creates something really valuable for the organization to
move it forward. Well, I would almost say
(21:20):
maybe your bachelor's
has as much to do with where you're
at as does your librarianship.
I see you have a bachelor's in sociology.
This is all sociology
stuff you're talking about.
Yeah. I know. You're like, yep. You're right.
Yep. And and the one regret I do
have about my education, maybe I should go
(21:41):
and do it, is I wished I'd got
a psychology background as well
because I've become
fascinated
with how people
share the drivers behind those sorts of things
and and absolutely the sociology because I'm really
interested in the people aspect.
But then there's people plus the mind.
And I think it's a really rich combination
Yeah. Sometimes with an element of political studies
(22:03):
in there. But Well, I I think you're
on to something there because I can remember
explaining to someone who is a Buddhist at
that point
years ago what knowledge management was about. And
she's like,
you're talking about ascension. You're talking about reaching
Zen Yep. You know, of that ilk or
just, you know, wherever we're
(22:24):
we're wise people. We're wise, and we share,
and we teach each other. And yeah. Yeah.
That's interesting that, so is there anything on
the scope of,
the next,
masters maybe or what?
I I I've looked. I I just don't
know if I've got the the the firepower
anymore to do it, but I, you know,
I absolutely do read
(22:46):
in that space, and it's it's something that
is a personal interest, but not just at
work. But also another area that I think
is very much aligned to knowledge is around
comms and change
because often this journey of knowledge management is
that. It's trying to drive behaviors, but also
trying to to change how we do something
to get to a better place.
(23:07):
And I think sometimes those comms skills are
undervalued in our industry. So you're basically just
saying just pure communication skills. Mhmm. Yeah. Because
some of what you talked about is that
there's a little bit of marketing involved
with
selling your results or selling your story or
selling. And I I say that because, really,
(23:27):
the essence of what you talked about a
few minutes ago is that you have to
keep in the public eye, public being the
organization, and, hey, we're doing this and we're
doing that. And that's a bit of a
marketing piece, but the communication
element,
what is critical in communication
that you see serves you best?
Being able to tell the story
(23:49):
and what's in it for the reader, not
just what I want people to know about
what we're doing.
Yeah. Writing for
the consumer. Yes. Writing for the reader. We
need more of that. It's challenging in an
organization because every team has got something great
to share. Mhmm. So you've gotta really think
about the user in terms of consumption
and channel, cadence, and all those sorts of
(24:11):
things. But I try and put myself in
everything I do into the typical user or
typical persona shoes.
Why should they care about what we're doing?
Why?
The why. Yes. That should always start with
the why. Why are we doing this and
why would anybody read this and yeah. That's
perfect. Yep. We're getting close on time. So
I want to give you the opportunity.
(24:32):
Is there any bit of advice? And I
know you started off with a really great
piece of advice.
But is there any resource
as a leader in the Kilometers world
of what you do? Is there a resource
that is fresh in your mind that you
would suggest anybody to pick up and utilize?
Oh, there's there's lot. There's lots. I think
(24:52):
it's also about what where your interest lies
and finding where your interest lies and how
it aligns to the work that you're doing.
So, I mean, I I love nothing more
than a good scroll on LinkedIn just to
see what people are up to, what's going
on. And then if something piques my interest,
I'll go and read a little more. I
then go to one source, and I think
that's the the librarian in me as well
(25:13):
is I'm I'm curious.
I'm a generalist, and sometimes I think I'm
a what's this expression?
A master of nothing, really. I just just
got this general interest in
learning, exploring, and thinking how we can apply
that to what we do. Well, thank you
for your wise advice to
continually learn because that's what I heard you
just say. Yes. Just continually
(25:35):
seek and learn. Absolutely. Thank you, Kim. It
was a joy. Thank you, Edward. I enjoyed
that immensely.
Thank you for joining this extraordinary journey, and
(25:56):
we hope the experiences gained add value to
you and yours.
See you next time at because you need
to know. If you'd like to contact us,
please email
byntk@pioneerdashks.org,
or find us on LinkedIn.
Pioneer Knowledge Services is welcomes you to the
next because you need to know. I'm your
host, Edwin k Morris. I serve as president
and founder of this organization, and we are
thrilled to offer this educational program. These design
conversations
bring you people's experiences from all over the
globe in the field of knowledge management, nonprofit
(00:32):
work, and innovation.
Thank you for listening to Because You Need
to Know, the reference podcast in knowledge management.
My name is Soni Tonebe. As an art
administrator,
Because You Need to Know has been my
go to podcast and has helped me hone
(00:53):
my management skills. Please consider sponsoring the podcast
with your business.
My name is Kim Sherwin. I live in
Sydney, Australia. I'm currently working at Aurecon as
the Director of Knowledge.
I've worked for 23 years in the field
of libraries and knowledge.
(01:14):
If I was stranded on a desert island,
the three things I must have would be
my partner,
our record player, and our vinyl collection.
I think we'd be okay.
The absolute best piece of advice I was
ever given was don't spend too much time
on the things you love. You'll only end
up resenting it. And that was from a
senior leader that I once worked with. It's
(01:36):
so true.
The last book that I read is a
book called Chabs. It's about working class in
the UK because I have an absolute fascination
with, social class and particularly from the country
where I was born. Can you just give
me the spelling of the title? I didn't
catch it. C h a b s.
Chabs. Chabs. Chabs. Does that mean something? Is
that a It stands for Cheltenham average. So
(01:59):
it's a expression used,
related to a pocket of the working class.
Uh-huh. And probably not in a positive light,
I've taken it.
Depends which side.
Okay.
Kim, how does a librarian
crossover because I I see them as not
(02:20):
the same. How does a librarian crossover to
knowledge management?
Great question. And I'm not sure I have
the technical answer, but my little journey was
I fell into it.
I got asked one day when I started
a new role, I was in the role
of senior librarian, and one day somebody said
to me, in fact, day 2 of that
role, would you like to do knowledge? You
look like you'd be good at knowledge, and
(02:40):
I went,
sure.
Why not?
They they actually said,
you look like you'd be good at knowledge.
That would look good on you, you know,
like it's a fashion statement.
What was your impression?
Like,
I don't know what you're talking about. What?
I mean, I Yeah. So I was day
(03:00):
2 in the role, and I'm not gonna
say no. So I just said yes, and
I thought, well, we'll work it out. And,
and kind of some almost 10 years later,
I'm I'm still working it out, but I
can definitely see
over the last few years where the connection
lies.
And a lot of it is around my
my library background is really was focused on
(03:21):
research,
so I was interested in kind of original
source material and finding that. And then for
me, knowledge is the extension of that, and
it's turning information
into knowledge where people's experience is therefore applied.
What's the scope of knowledge being managed in
your current position as director?
I mean, are you are you all internal
(03:43):
facing kind of knowledge management or external? Or
We're all internal facing. So I I work
at a company called Oricon, and we have
just under 7,000 people who are part of
the organization
spread across Australia, New Zealand, and into Asia.
And the remit of my team is to
support and to encourage,
I guess, a culture of knowledge sharing,
(04:05):
where knowledge is of, in effect, our largest
asset at the organization, the knowledge of our
people, and and it's what we sell to
our clients.
So there's a real emphasis on encouraging
the sharing of knowledge so that we're not
starting from scratch every time. We're learning as
we go, and therefore, we can be better
at serving our clients when we pull our
collective knowledge. So there's been a little hubbub
(04:26):
in the last 6 months about the terminology
of calling knowledge an asset.
And some of the pushback is, well, that's
an economic term. It means a hard tack
kind of either money or some
asset.
So do you see it as a difference
at all, or is it just a fluid
knowledge is an asset? I try not to
(04:48):
get caught up on the words and the
semantics around all of this. Yeah. To me,
I kind of like to talk in the
language of the business.
You know, we do talk in the language
of assets, and we we we pay for
assets, and assets are our people. You know?
And we also build and design assets.
So there's, I guess, there's lots of levels
to the word asset. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So
(05:09):
I yeah. Try not to get too caught
up on it because I I often find
myself in kind of in the spiral of
decline Right. Rather than actually trying to do
stuff with knowledge. Yeah. And I agree. I
had that conversation
with someone recently, and it just seems to
be the spiral effect of
blah blah blah blah. Let's just forget about
trying to chase that, and let's just do
(05:30):
something. Yep. So I'm with you. The organization
or let's let's talk about what your
branch from librarianship
and your history, what set you up to
look good for knowledge?
What set you up? Was it your haircut?
Was it the the attitude in your eye?
Was it your resume?
(05:51):
What made you
be really good at knowledge management?
That's that's a really great question. I think
part of me just I have this can
do attitude. I'm really enthusiastic.
And so when an opportunity comes along, much
like, oh, you look like you'd be good
at knowledge, I just say yes, and we'll
work it out.
(06:11):
Just just take it. And, you know, that's
been to my detriment at at times, like
I've taken on too much. Sure. But also,
it's kind of working in organizations that give
you the freedom and the scope to go
try things. And then if it's not what
it should be, you'd encourage to change it.
But it's really just trying to progressively or
incrementally move things forward. And I think just
(06:32):
taking these opportunities and kind of having an
open mind about where your career goes, I
think it's just there's no secret sauce for
me. It's just being open.
Okay.
It kinda sounds like you have an entrepreneurship
kind of vibe.
There's a bravery
around what you just went through in your
example of what happened
(06:54):
that you just said, okay. I'll sure. Let
you know, I'll figure it out later.
Because you're there's something that is inside you
that says, hey. Nothing ventured, nothing gained. Right?
So where does that come from?
I think oh, this is a Nice. Sure
where we I know. Right? So let's let's
(07:14):
back up the way back machine
and think about that. Did you have a
family member that was a small business person?
Did you have
some kind of imprint from a neighbor, from
a teacher? Or
I'm just curious where the spark came from,
or
is it just genetic in your family? Is
everybody like that in your family?
(07:36):
To
a to a point, I don't have an
entrepreneurial
family.
It's almost a personality type for me. I
just get really excited
about doing new things and challenging the status
quo and people seeing value in what I
can contribute, and and it kinda gives me
a warm and fuzzy feeling, so I just
go for it. And and I've been lucky
(07:57):
that I've worked in organizations that have supported
me with being a bit lofty at times,
and and just giving stuff a go. So
I wish there was a kind of a
planned answer to that one. Yeah. Well, and
I I bring that up because people just
assume things
that the role you fell into,
that that's normal.
(08:18):
And maybe it is, or maybe it's not.
But I really wanted to pinpoint that your
reaction
was probably more not normal for most people
would be my guess. I think
what you did was
like I like you said, on day 2,
you're like, sure. You know? I think a
lot of people would have said, well, let
me let me think about you know, or
(08:39):
or whatever. They'd have been pushed back at
some level, and you just jumped in. So
I'm I'm more interested in
how that has served you
to bring to what you're at now.
I think Was this the first incidence that
you can think of that you just said,
sure. Let's go. Yeah. I think I think
professionally. Yeah. And to have that door opened,
(09:01):
I think, was oh, somebody can say what
I'm potentially capable of, so I'll latch on
to that. I think also with my library
background as well, like, libraries are very expensive.
The value is immense,
but they also cost a lot of money.
I think trying to demonstrate value has always
been something that I've been quite passionate about,
(09:22):
and and I have a little motto, like,
you know, do something, tell someone, because
libraries need to fly their flag. And I
guess that probably was where my response or
enthusiasm to to step into knowledge came from.
Is is this gonna help with the library
stuff? Is this gonna help with my own
profile? Is this gonna help with our team?
Absolutely, it did, and it's opened so many
(09:43):
doors for me, But it's I think it's
coming from the goodness. We are an expensive
resource. We better show some value here. Mhmm.
Let's talk about that. You said you work
in an industry and or organization that
pretty much has everything labeled with an economic
factor. You're proven plus or minus on the
scale here of economic cost,
(10:05):
or investment.
What are the things that you really tell
as far as the value exchange
in the role that you do and what
you do with the company, what are some
of the indicators that say, oh, look at
that, look at this, look at that?
Stories.
So I think for me, a key piece
around all of this is communication.
(10:26):
Back to what I said before, do something,
tell someone. If we're not out there beating
our own drum,
nobody will do it for us. And it
it also it's about how you tell the
stories. It's not our check the knowledge team
out.
It's more positioning other people and trying to
find ways to make others shine
is is what kind of what I'm I'm
really quite interested in, but then quite crude
(10:48):
metrics about round number of thumbs on seats
at events that we might run, number of
engagements with a post. But, you know, trying
to capture the true value of knowledge is
a really, really difficult one. So how are
these stories
being captured and shared and developed? In my
team, I'm lucky enough to have somebody who
has a role of communications.
We have a dedicated role who works on
(11:10):
sharing those stories.
It's also as being more aware of what's
actually happening across the business. So we can
then on share that kind of stuff because
we get a lot of people coming to
us as almost a signpost within the business.
Where do I find? What do I do?
We use things like, you know, the the
catchily new newly titled Veeva Engage, formerly known
as Yammer,
(11:31):
to share to share stories on. We've got
a very strong relationship with our internal comms
team.
We run some quite high profile events in
the organization,
so it's being visible. And we also have
a brand in the organization as well so
people know its knowledge
and can see the kind of the culture
that we're trying to drive. Do you find
that the corporate culture and or strategic
(11:54):
plan has you front and center?
I mean, are you like, hey. Look. We're
right here. This is what our role is.
We're very much kind of a silver thread
throughout the whole of our our corporate plan.
And we sit as part of a broader
eminence digital and innovation team, which is kind
of almost a fundamental,
and what we class as a core winning
(12:15):
strength of our organization.
Knowledge also appears in the onboarding process. Mhmm.
It also appears in the what we call
our let's talk process, so that's kind of
our performance review. So we're trying to find
ways of making or having knowledge more integrated
in how our con works Yeah. Rather than
a thing at the end when Yeah. People
(12:35):
got no time to collect knowledge.
It's a challenge.
You've used the word culture multiple times, and
it sounds like
your
silver thread concept is that it is woven
to strengthen the culture.
You you call it that? Would that be
right? That's what my long term aspiration
(12:57):
is. We talk knowledge. Like, it's very much
in the vocabulary of the organization.
I'd like us to to go further and
it for it to be ingrained
in everything we do. But we're not there
yet, but we've we've made huge inroads over
the last few years. You know, it's that
once you start establishing
the image and the value that it can
create,
(13:18):
then it's just easier.
You know, it's no longer a hard sell
Mhmm. And it starts to build. That momentum
starts to build and people talk. Right? Mhmm.
Going back to the culture,
that's best way to get some kind of
word-of-mouth Mhmm. Grassroots kind of approach.
Is it something that is that for you?
I mean, is your strategy
(13:39):
in rolling out the Kilometers,
is it, top down, would you say, or
is it grassroots
bottom up? We're trying to go for all
angles
because I don't think one approach is gonna
get us the desired outcome, so we have
to look at it, like, in the middle.
We also need to look at who our
key stakeholders are, so we work quite closely
(13:59):
with what we call our capability leaders.
It's like communities of practice. So we're trying
to have knowledge part of every stage of
how Aurecon currently works.
And also what one decision that we made
I mean, I've only been at the organization,
just under a year, but one decision we
made fairly soon after I joined was we
were gonna drop the use of the word
(14:20):
management from knowledge management. Mhmm. And that was
quite a a deliberate thing on my part
because
I wanted to shift the dial with how
the team was perceived.
We're here to facilitate the sharing of knowledge.
We're not here to manage everybody's knowledge because
we're a very, very small team,
and it's just the the expectation that that
puts on what the role of our team
(14:40):
is is immense. So this has really helped
with trying to position us as about the
culture of sharing knowledge,
not necessarily the formalized process of sharing knowledge.
So it kinda sounds that you've
encapsulated
your efforts around
what I would term learning
and development or learning
and training. You're you're trying to get skills
(15:02):
and behaviors
reinforced Yeah. Throughout the organization. Right? Yeah. It's
absolutely more about behavioral things,
about what's gonna drive people to share, and
what are the reasons people don't share. And,
you know, we know we have a couple
of questions in our
organizational
survey
about knowledge, and we know some of the
barriers, and so we're trying to work with
(15:23):
those barriers.
You get a great insight from across the
breadth of our business about the pain points
and also our opportunities. We're really using that
feedback to drive where we go as well.
In the future
of your organization
and most organizations
that have transitioned
to a digital workspace or work
(15:43):
much more robust digital platforms,
where does the role of the human fit
in critical thinking?
The human is center to all of this,
much like what I shared at the beginning.
It's the asset of knowledge which derives from
the human is central to where this all
goes.
We have a knowledge strategy, 3 pillars. The
(16:04):
middle pillar is around nurturing a knowledge sharing
culture, and that recognizes the role of the
human, the center to where this goes. You
know, we talk about the future, the kind
of the future feels like it's here at
the moment with artificial
intelligence.
Right.
And that that Every day is a new
day. You know? So
(16:25):
And we can't talk about AI
without talking about humans.
And and I think absolutely a fundamental role
for the human to play both in terms
of content contribution,
but then in also output validation
and critical thinking. And I think we're gonna
see a shift with the investment that we
put into helping people with AI literacy and
(16:48):
digital literacy. What is the key attribute a
person if you're gonna look to expand your
team in the knowledge work, knowledge and innovation,
what's the key attribute you seek? Somebody who
is open minded and willing to give it
a go without having all of the answers
because
that's something I've picked up throughout my career.
(17:09):
You can be an expert in something, but
you can't know all of the answers. And
particularly,
given this move to AI Mhmm. We're kind
of living and breathing it as it's evolving.
You can't be an expert in all of
this. So you have to surround yourself with
people who know more than you do about
things that you don't know about and kind
of work as as very much as a
part of a team. Well, that's part of,
(17:31):
just the the whole human
competition
and the ego
that has to kinda get tamped down a
little bit in order to have full collaboration
actually happen. Mhmm. So there's maturity there. Yes.
Absolutely. Because
I I think early on in my career,
I thought I could do it all, and
I thought I knew it all. I'm not
(17:51):
trying to sound like a smart ass or
anything.
But but you do, and you got it,
you know, you got a university and think
you're being spat out as an expert
when the reality of when you hit the
workplace
is quite different. And and particularly given the
type of organization that I work in is
we're so broad in terms of the disciplines
that we cover. There's there's no way that
(18:12):
you could possibly know at all. I think
it's it's that adaptability,
and I think that's where my, I guess,
my librarian skills and working in different sectors
have really kind of helped me. You don't
need to know the subject matter. It's the
skills that you've got Yeah. To help work
with the experts. I would agree with that.
I think, a generalist
is probably gonna prove
(18:34):
top of the heap in another 20 years
Mhmm. That has a little bit of everything.
And
but not only the breadth and maybe a
mile wide and an inch deep, right, of
knowledge.
They also have to have comprehension in that
that critical skill thing because
you can have all this. You can have
this wide view and spectrum.
(18:55):
But if you don't have the comprehension to
understand
and be a broker for someone else of
all that knowledge,
it's useless. Yeah. Absolutely. And I think that's
a great word, a broker.
And it's also you need to be very
well connected
as well. So, you know, as I said,
we we often use this as signpost, but
we take every opportunity to meet new people
(19:16):
where we can.
And then, oh, I had this conversation with
x, y, and zed. Mhmm. And now somebody
else has come, and I can connect those
2. So we're very much in the business
of connecting the dots as well. Yeah. You're
not connecting the dots just to facilitate a
requirement of your place. You're you're doing it
out of just inquiry. You've got an inquiring
(19:37):
mind that wants to learn or understand more.
Yes. Yep. Absolutely. Well, in your learned years,
what would be your definition of knowledge
and management if we had management
after knowledge? What would that definition be?
No. I mean, for me, knowledge is very
much about people's
(19:57):
experiences
and insights
and then the application of their wisdom, and
then the value comes from sharing it with
others
in whatever means or medium.
And I think one of my observations of,
you know, last few years in in the
industry is people get caught up on what
knowledge management means. I think it's more what's
(20:18):
under the hood and particularly in type of
organization that I work. People just want kinda
wanna loosely know what you do, but it's
more about the value that you bring. Mhmm.
So I think very much knowledge or knowledge
management
is dependent on the type of organization. There's
some core principles, absolutely,
but it's really what the organization that you're
operating in needs and where the value lies
(20:39):
for for that business. In your description, it
sounds more of a community resource
or a community
Absolutely. Effort. Yeah. Because we're a large organization,
and everybody has got something to contribute to
helping move Aurecon forward.
For me, knowledge also needs to be an
inclusive concept
where if you work in an enterprise services
(21:00):
team, if you're part of the people team
or, you know, HR, finance, legal,
comms, you've all got valuable knowledge to share
to help move things forward. So it's, I
guess, it's almost this individual aspect,
but the the combination of the individuals
creates something really valuable for the organization to
move it forward. Well, I would almost say
(21:20):
maybe your bachelor's
has as much to do with where you're
at as does your librarianship.
I see you have a bachelor's in sociology.
This is all sociology
stuff you're talking about.
Yeah. I know. You're like, yep. You're right.
Yep. And and the one regret I do
have about my education, maybe I should go
(21:41):
and do it, is I wished I'd got
a psychology background as well
because I've become
fascinated
with how people
share the drivers behind those sorts of things
and and absolutely the sociology because I'm really
interested in the people aspect.
But then there's people plus the mind.
And I think it's a really rich combination
Yeah. Sometimes with an element of political studies
(22:03):
in there. But Well, I I think you're
on to something there because I can remember
explaining to someone who is a Buddhist at
that point
years ago what knowledge management was about. And
she's like,
you're talking about ascension. You're talking about reaching
Zen Yep. You know, of that ilk or
just, you know, wherever we're
(22:24):
we're wise people. We're wise, and we share,
and we teach each other. And yeah. Yeah.
That's interesting that, so is there anything on
the scope of,
the next,
masters maybe or what?
I I I've looked. I I just don't
know if I've got the the the firepower
anymore to do it, but I, you know,
I absolutely do read
(22:46):
in that space, and it's it's something that
is a personal interest, but not just at
work. But also another area that I think
is very much aligned to knowledge is around
comms and change
because often this journey of knowledge management is
that. It's trying to drive behaviors, but also
trying to to change how we do something
to get to a better place.
(23:07):
And I think sometimes those comms skills are
undervalued in our industry. So you're basically just
saying just pure communication skills. Mhmm. Yeah. Because
some of what you talked about is that
there's a little bit of marketing involved
with
selling your results or selling your story or
selling. And I I say that because, really,
(23:27):
the essence of what you talked about a
few minutes ago is that you have to
keep in the public eye, public being the
organization, and, hey, we're doing this and we're
doing that. And that's a bit of a
marketing piece, but the communication
element,
what is critical in communication
that you see serves you best?
Being able to tell the story
(23:49):
and what's in it for the reader, not
just what I want people to know about
what we're doing.
Yeah. Writing for
the consumer. Yes. Writing for the reader. We
need more of that. It's challenging in an
organization because every team has got something great
to share. Mhmm. So you've gotta really think
about the user in terms of consumption
and channel, cadence, and all those sorts of
(24:11):
things. But I try and put myself in
everything I do into the typical user or
typical persona shoes.
Why should they care about what we're doing?
Why?
The why. Yes. That should always start with
the why. Why are we doing this and
why would anybody read this and yeah. That's
perfect. Yep. We're getting close on time. So
I want to give you the opportunity.
(24:32):
Is there any bit of advice? And I
know you started off with a really great
piece of advice.
But is there any resource
as a leader in the Kilometers world
of what you do? Is there a resource
that is fresh in your mind that you
would suggest anybody to pick up and utilize?
Oh, there's there's lot. There's lots. I think
(24:52):
it's also about what where your interest lies
and finding where your interest lies and how
it aligns to the work that you're doing.
So, I mean, I I love nothing more
than a good scroll on LinkedIn just to
see what people are up to, what's going
on. And then if something piques my interest,
I'll go and read a little more. I
then go to one source, and I think
that's the the librarian in me as well
(25:13):
is I'm I'm curious.
I'm a generalist, and sometimes I think I'm
a what's this expression?
A master of nothing, really. I just just
got this general interest in
learning, exploring, and thinking how we can apply
that to what we do. Well, thank you
for your wise advice to
continually learn because that's what I heard you
just say. Yes. Just continually
(25:35):
seek and learn. Absolutely. Thank you, Kim. It
was a joy. Thank you, Edward. I enjoyed
that immensely.
Thank you for joining this extraordinary journey, and
(25:56):
we hope the experiences gained add value to
you and yours.
See you next time at because you need
to know. If you'd like to contact us,
please email
byntk@pioneerdashks.org,
or find us on LinkedIn.
Popular Podcasts
24/7 News: The Latest
The latest news in 4 minutes updated every hour, every day.
Therapy Gecko
An unlicensed lizard psychologist travels the universe talking to strangers about absolutely nothing. TO CALL THE GECKO: follow me on https://www.twitch.tv/lyleforever to get a notification for when I am taking calls. I am usually live Mondays, Wednesdays, and Fridays but lately a lot of other times too. I am a gecko.
The Joe Rogan Experience
The official podcast of comedian Joe Rogan.