June 13, 2025 • 48 mins
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Ever feel like you're giving your all to work, relationships, and personal goals, but treating your spiritual life like an afterthought? Michael Pacer joins Jack to explore the disconnect that's leaving so many men unfulfilled and searching for something more.
Michael, president of 5 Stones and author of "Prayers for Catholic Men," brings his unique gift of making complex spiritual realities accessible to everyone. As a former trial attorney who specialized in breaking down complicated concepts for juries, he now applies that same clarity to the spiritual journey – particularly focusing on confession and the Mass as the "one-two punch" of authentic faith.
The conversation tackles a profound question: Why do we accept that every other area of life requires consistent effort – from weightlifting to career advancement – yet expect our souls to flourish without similar investment?
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
I need something quick, right, If I don't know
the Catholic faith and I'mlooking for something, man, I
need a guide like this, thiskind of guide me in, and if I
want to go deeper and deeper anddeeper, there's plenty of
opportunity for that.
But these guys are stepping inMichael to the story and you're
doing exactly what they need.
Speaker 2 (00:17):
It's kind of funny.
You go back to what gifts Goddoes give you.
So I was a trial attorney.
What can I do?
I can take difficult conceptsand I can break them down and
explain them in a very shortamount of time, a very short
number of words.
It takes a lot of time to dothat and make something that is
perhaps seemingly inaccessibleand make inaccessible because
(00:37):
that's what I had to do forjudges, that's what I had to do
for jurors.
Speaker 1 (00:40):
It's important to look back at your life once in a
while and see how far God hascalled you.
You know we're still notperfect, but you look back and
you go holy moly, what a mess Iwould have been today.
And you know, if you don'tclean up that mess, as you get
older, all of those traits,those negative traits, they get
worse, they're exemplified andman, you can turn into a real
(01:03):
beast.
Welcome to the become who youare podcast, a production of the
john paul to renewal center.
I'm jack riggert, your host.
This is our friday very specialedition focused on Claymore
(01:26):
Miletus Christi, these young menthat we're working with and all
the people that love them.
So it's a big support group outthere, but they're guys that
decided there's got to besomething more than this toxic
culture.
They want to be free, they wantto become free themselves and
then go out and build a cultureof life, love and liberty and
they're sensing an urgency tothat.
So I'm glad to have a goodfriend of mine back on, mike
(01:48):
Pacer.
He's the president of FiveStones, self-described
recovering trial attorney andauthor.
Written many books.
His latest book is on prayer.
I really think, michael, thatthis is going to be the handbook
of Claymore Miletus Christi.
It's a phenomenal book.
It's not really big.
I can almost carry this just inmy back pocket.
I might be able to do that.
(02:08):
It's awesome the amount ofsubjects that you've covered in
a beautiful way.
So great to have you back.
Returning guest Michael, goodto have you here, yeah.
Speaker 2 (02:19):
I guess I didn't mess up too badly last time.
Speaker 1 (02:21):
No, you're okay, Thank you for this, I really do.
You know, the first thing theseguys do is they get down on
their knees, they open up theirhearts and say, let it be done
to me according to your word,and then our blessed mother says
you know, do as he tells you todo, you know?
So we're opening up our hearts.
You've got some great morningprayers in there.
If they want to add a couple ofthings to that, the other thing
we talk about is a second thingon your knees is temptation is
(02:44):
not a sin To open up all thesetemptations, not to stuff them
down, not to indulge them, butto open those up.
So we're doing that first thingin the morning.
Well, you've got this greatsection in here on purity.
You've got some beautifulprayers right.
So we're trying to purify ourhearts, to free ourselves.
And in this section I'll justmention quickly on fasting too.
I'm a big fasting fan, not onlyfasting from food, but alcohol,
(03:08):
say, nicotine, pornography,sloth, whatever you're dealing
with guys, you can fast fromthat.
It's a big deal.
It's a big deal, and thesesmall fasts that you can do
really build you up.
Today I want to talk a littlebit about maybe a couple of
those things, but focus on theMass, michael, and Confession,
(03:31):
because this is the center.
Huh, this is the center of allof this.
If they're not going to Mass,if they're not going to
Confession, they kind of missthe boat.
So let's start this way.
How did you decide, afterwriting all the books that you
did, to write this one?
Speaker 2 (03:46):
finally, michael, Prayers for Catholic Men.
Speaker 1 (03:49):
Ignatius.
Speaker 2 (03:50):
Yeah, I actually wrote that it was actually my
first book.
A different edition of it wasyears ago and it just grew out
of just my own struggles, my ownexperiences, my own journey and
just having great guides.
I mean, I've always had greatspiritual directors, since when
I was a freshman in high schoolto my current life and what
really made me Not so easy tofind anymore either.
Speaker 1 (04:10):
No, no, people ask me today they say where do I find
one?
I say good luck trying to finda priest for sure, because
they're so busy, right?
Speaker 2 (04:18):
But, jack, something and you said this is not just
for Claymore and not just foryoung men, but men that are more
advanced in their years andtheir wisdom and their spiritual
lives.
We're called to be spiritualmentors.
So you know, I work with someyoung men on a semi-regular
basis.
I don't call myself a spiritualdirector, I call myself kind of
a spiritual coach.
That's what this is.
(04:39):
Michael Yep, claymore, miletusChristi, that's that outline,
exactly, claymore, miletusChristi.
Speaker 1 (04:47):
That's that outline and it goes perfectly with what
you're saying, you know, becauseit gives you a systematic
outline of how to disciple youngmen and young men.
What are they looking for, youknow?
And in there, of course, getsback to these prayers.
And sorry to interrupt you againbecause I want you to get back
to how you decided to write this, but what I'm saying is again
that this is just fits so wellwith our Claymore program that
(05:11):
it's almost like you wrote itfor us.
So you wrote this first andthis is what just an updated
edition is.
Speaker 2 (05:16):
That kind of what happened yeah, but it's a much
updated and it's funny becauseyou talk about confession and
mass.
One of the things that I reallybulked up is I addressed the
mass and I really addressedconfession.
So I wrote this many years agowell, many, I don't know
probably eight or 10 years ago,a much smaller version of it.
So this is a really bulked upon steroids version recognized a
(05:37):
lot of areas that needed to beaddressed and one of them, you
know, the mass and confessionwere two areas that really
needed to be addressed more.
So I really went into and again, I didn't go through the mass
and explain every single prayerin the mass.
What I kept it was a higherlevel why did we go to mass?
What are we trying to get outof mass?
How do we go into mass?
How do we prepare ourselves formass?
How do we do a good job ofpraying the mass?
(05:58):
What do we do after mass?
Speaker 1 (06:00):
So can you say, with all those things you just said?
Can you say, with all thosethings you just said, can you
see why I think it's soimportant to have this as a
especially for these new guyscoming in?
Because you hit all of thosethings in a economy of pages and
you did it in a way that's avery I was going to say easy
read.
It's not really an easy readper se, but certainly very
readable and understandable, andit's not one of those things I
(06:24):
have to spend weeks and weeksand weeks getting deep into a
theology lesson.
Right, You're really nailing it.
And when I'm coming in, I needsomething quick.
Right, If I don't know theCatholic faith and I'm looking
for something, man, I need aguide like this, this kind of
guide me in.
And if I want to go deeper anddeeper and deeper, there's
plenty of opportunity for that.
(06:45):
But these guys are stepping in,Michael, to the story and
you're doing exactly what theyneed.
So thank you again.
Speaker 2 (06:51):
It's.
You know, you got to recognizewhat your gifts are.
I've read, you know, a bunch ofnovels and I'm always amazed by
great writers of novels.
I'm reading another MichaelO'Brien novel right now and I
mean, this guy is an incrediblewriter.
I can never write like this,but what I can do it's kind of
funny.
You go back to you know whatgifts God does give you.
So I was a trial attorney.
(07:11):
What can I do?
I can take difficult conceptsand I can break them down and
explain them in a very shortamount of time, a very short
number of words.
It takes a lot of time to dothat and make something that is
perhaps seemingly inaccessibleand make inaccessible, because
that's what I had to do forjudges, that's what I had to do
for jurors.
Speaker 1 (07:31):
Yeah, it makes sense.
And before you go to Mass,let's just touch on this.
We can come back and go alittle deeper.
Before you go to Mass, makesure you do what, michael,
there's a step in front of theMass before you receive that
Eucharist.
Mass before you receive thatEucharist.
There's another sacrament thatwe need to step into and get
washed first.
Speaker 2 (07:47):
Yeah, yeah, and you know what?
It's interesting because somepeople don't understand.
First of all, I want to talkabout Mass.
When we talk about confession,these are the yin and the yang.
This is the one-two punch.
Do keep in mind the beauty,because confession, regular
confession, is a great thing.
I recommend, you know, once amonth.
That's kind of a general,that's mine.
(08:08):
Some people go more often, somepeople go less often.
I think you know, putting itoff to once a couple quarter,
you know once a year.
Speaker 1 (08:17):
that's a bad idea.
It's not enough.
We need that grace, but on theother hand, yeah, amen, amen and
also look, we're sinners.
Speaker 2 (08:24):
But also the running to speak for yourself, Michael.
Speaker 1 (08:27):
Yeah, Well.
Speaker 2 (08:28):
OK.
On the other hand, going toconfession every three days,
four days, you know you canbecome scrupulous.
You've got to be careful ofthat too.
So one thing to keep in mind isthe great thing about masses
Mass washes clean all thoselittle venial sins.
The reception of the Eucharisthas that complete curative power
, yeah important, and don't everforget that.
Now, on the other hand, though,mortal sins, those you need to
(08:49):
go to confession for, and I willsay, there's sins that are more
serious, that aren't quitemortal.
You know, maybe they're washedby communion, perhaps you know
it's still venial sin.
But, you know, probably thebest thing I ever heard and I
did not come up with this, I didnot come up with this, I did
not come up with this but thebest thing I ever heard about
(09:10):
confession was the reason to goto confession is because you
need to say two words and youneed to hear two words.
Hang on that for a second.
So there's this concept.
A lot of our Protestant brothersand sisters have a concept of
sorrow for sin and confessingtheir sins, but they do it very
personally and privately and,yes, theologically.
Even in the Catholic world, webelieve that it is possibly, it
(09:31):
is theoretically possible tomake a perfect act of contrition
and be completely forgiven.
That is possible.
But let's look at the reality.
You know you go up to your room, you know you say I'm sorry, I
don't know, are you, are youperfectly, perfectly, perfectly
sorry?
And do you know that God hascompletely forgiven you?
So what do we need?
(09:51):
We need to stand before God.
The priest is just in personaChristi, the priest is just
there on behalf of God, and youneed to say to God those words
I'm sorry, sorry, yeah.
You have to say to God thosewords I'm sorry, sorry, yeah.
You have to say it, you have toown it, you have to take, you
know, ownership of this.
You say I'm sorry, and thenwhat do you need to hear?
(10:12):
You are forgiven, you'reforgiven, yeah.
And see, there's no doubt.
And it doesn't matter, becausewhen we go to confession,
whether we're up in our roomsaying we're sorry or whether we
go to confession, you can walkout of a confessional and not
feel forgiven.
But it doesn't matter, becauseGod already told you I absolve
you completely, totally.
They're gone, get over.
(10:33):
It Doesn't matter what you feel.
Just tell yourself those sinsare forgiven and move on.
You need to say I'm sorry.
You need to hear you'reforgiven.
Speaker 1 (10:43):
Yeah, you do, and I'll tell you, when I came back
into the church I was gone for20 years when I came back in I
was starting to go back to MassI forgot that one simple thing
right that you need to take thatnuptial bath of confession
first and get clean.
You know, here I am trying to,and the desire to unite myself
with Christ, and I was full ofsin.
It's just like some guycheating on his wife and
(11:10):
pretending like nothing's wrongwhen he goes home.
You know, when I went toconfession for the first time
after 20 years, I got up out ofthat confessional and by the
time I was three or four minutesof driving, three or four
minutes away, my heart exploded.
I mean, basically, I waslooking for a place to turn off
and sit there.
I knew something happened.
So these are powerful movementsof the heart.
You know, and I think sometimes,michael, we take this after if
you've been Catholic for a whileand been going to confession
(11:33):
for a while, you take things forgranted.
It's important to look back atyour life once in a while and
see how far God has called you.
You know we're still notperfect, but you look back and
you go holy moly, what a mess Iwould have been today.
And you know, if you don'tclean up that mess, as you get
older, all of those traits,those negative traits, they get
(11:54):
worse, they're exemplified and,man, you can turn into a real
beast.
Speaker 2 (11:59):
Well, it's interesting that we have no
doubt any aspect of our livesthat we have to put the effort
in.
So you know if you want to bean athlete.
Speaker 1 (12:07):
That's a great point.
Speaker 2 (12:08):
Let's say you're a nice 16, 17-year-old young man
and you want to be a baseball,you want to be a football player
, you want to run track?
No-transcript athlete, it'syour job.
(12:34):
Nobody sits there and says,yeah, you don't have to be any
better in school, I don't worryabout it, maybe study.
Speaker 1 (12:40):
So why the heck do we think that our souls so why the
heck do we think that our souls, our very being, is going to
get any better when we put noeffort into it whatsoever?
I mean, how foolish is that?
Mid-40s, and he was strugglingwith his marriage and a big
(13:04):
problem with his marriage andfinally I just sat there and I
went around and around with thisguy I'm not a marriage
therapist, right and just keptgoing around in a circle.
Nothing I could say was goingto make much difference.
So I finally just stopped.
I said are you praying everyday?
He says yeah, I kind of prayevery day.
And I said okay.
I said are you going to massevery week?
(13:24):
No, are you going to confessionat least once a month?
No, are you praying the rosary?
No, he's the Catholic guy,right.
Are you reading scripture 15,20 minutes a day?
No, I fall into your knees,like I asked you last time.
We met first thing in themorning before you look at that
phone, not really, not all thetime.
(13:44):
You know blah, blah, blah and Isaid dude.
I said dude, you're guaranteedto be a mess and your
relationships are guaranteed tobe a mess.
I said you're living exactlylike I would expect you to live
if you don't do any of thosethings.
So to your point, mike.
I mean it's so important, Imean we think again, you're
going to go to your job, likeyou said, you're going to work
(14:05):
out, you're going to do allthese things.
Then we fail our souls.
We're an embodied soul and whatdo we expect is going to happen
in our lives if we don't takecare of that soul?
Speaker 2 (14:16):
Right, but it flies in the face of our reality.
Why do we think that everysingle aspect of our lives we
have to work at, but not ourspiritual life and, sadly, a lot
of times not at our marriagesor relationships with our
parents or our brothers andsisters?
Why?
Why the heck are those going togo well?
Everything else we know we haveto put work into, but the most
(14:36):
important things in life wesomehow feel are going to
magically occur with no effortwhatsoever.
Speaker 1 (14:41):
Yeah, and it doesn't happen and we become, in our
relationships, in our lives,over time, dysfunctional.
You know, you can see it around, you know how dysfunctional.
You said in the book, in thisplace where you have the
sacrament of reconciliation,that one of the first things or
the first thing that Jesusreally talked about when he came
into his public ministry wascalling us to repent.
(15:03):
You know, we all stand at thattree in a sense.
You know, and we have to decide.
You know, which way do we goright, the tree of the knowledge
of good and evil.
Do I go with God or do I turnmy back on God?
And Jesus comes in and saysrepent, dude, you're going to
have to.
You know metanoia right, youhave to turn away from the
sinful past life you had andcome into this story with me.
(15:25):
And if you're not going to dothat, don't waste your time.
Don't waste your time becausethe world is a powerful draw.
You're not dealing with, as StPaul said, just with flesh.
You're dealing with the powersand the principalities.
Don't we see this today,michael?
Absolutely.
What you're talking about hereis the power to fight against a
(15:47):
real culture of death that wehave out there today.
Speaker 2 (15:53):
Yeah, it's interesting, I don't know.
This thought kind of came to meabout the going back and the
changing and the metanoia,thinking back a million years
ago, when I was that 14-year-oldkid or that 16-year-old kid,
and I remember a lot of thingshappening in school and your
social life, especially thosereally awkward years where you
just you do something, you feellike you made a complete fool
(16:16):
out of yourself, you feel likean idiot, you feel like the end
of school year, you know, youjust, oh, nobody likes me, I'm a
loser, I'm this, I'm that, allthose sorts of things.
And what you really alwaysdream of is a new beginning and
a second chance.
And sometimes, you know, it waskind of cool.
Every school year after summerwas kind of neat, like whatever.
(16:37):
I don't know, maybe I was weird,but I'd kind of look at the
last year and say, hey, this isa new year, maybe I can do this,
maybe I can do that.
But how about a God who lovesyou so much that every single
time you fail, he says all yougot to do is tell me I'm sorry
and I will just completelyforgive you?
(16:58):
You know, there's the story ofthe prodigal son and there's,
you know, the beautiful paintingof it.
And there's just most peopleknow this story about the son
comes.
The son totally messes up.
We don't have to go into thosestories.
The son totally messes up theyounger son.
Speaker 1 (17:12):
Yeah, tell a little bit of it because I think it's
good for the guys to hear,because they need to hear this.
Michael, I'll do a quick one.
Speaker 2 (17:19):
I'll do a quick one.
So you've got a father, andhe's a wealthy father and he's
got two sons.
And the youngest son basicallysays look, father, give me my
share in the inheritance.
Right now, which basically islike dad, you're dead to me,
just give me as if you were dead, give me my share of the
inheritance, just give me as ifyou were dead, give me my share
of the inheritance.
And the dad does it.
The dad is so you know, soprodigal.
(17:42):
And prodigal, by the way, doesnot mean cheap, it means the
opposite.
So he gives everything to theson.
The son goes and just blows it,and there's a lot of great
things in the Bible, especiallylittle euphemisms and things
like that.
He squanders it on a life ofsin, and debauchery is what he
does.
I mean wine, women and song.
(18:03):
And he's got nothing.
And he's bottomed out and he'ssitting there feeding the pigs
which you know, you can't evenbe near a pig when you're a Jew
and he's sitting there feedingthem and he wishes he could eat
the corn husks.
So he kind of puts this thingtogether.
I'm going to go back.
He doesn't really say.
He doesn't really say I am sosorry.
He doesn't say I am so sorry hegoes.
You know what?
I'm sitting here and my lifesucks, and so many other people
the slaves living in my father'shouse are better than mine.
So he puts up this.
(18:25):
You can even see him work upthe.
Okay, I'll go back.
I'll tell him, father, I havesinned against.
God and against you, just takeme back.
I mean he's like, yeah, this isjust BS, but still he comes to
a sense as he goes back.
But here's the cool part of thestory and this is what I want
to drive home.
The father sees him at adistance and goes running out to
(18:46):
meet him, which means the storyis every day that he's been
gone every day.
After this son insulted him,trashed him, squandered
everything he had given him, thefather's out there every day
looking for his son, and whenthe son isn't even there, isn't
on his knees, hasn't even saidI'm sorry, yet the father is
running out to greet him andwhen the son says his little
(19:11):
nothing, sorry, he's embraced,he's put the best robe on him,
puts his ring on his finger, hereadopts him, puts him back into
the position that he was, orthe better position, and that's
God and that's confession.
It's every moment.
God is running to us.
See, prayer.
One thing about prayer is wealways think prayer is initiated
(19:31):
by us.
It's not, it's a response.
God is always God.
Just imagine him leaning.
Heaven isn't up there, butlet's just imagine Imagine God
leaning, staring at you with thegreatest amount of love, saying
please, please, please justcome back to me, please turn
your eyes to me for a second andI will shower you with
forgiveness, with love, withgrace, with everything you need.
Speaker 1 (19:55):
Michael, can you imagine why?
You know, you think thehumility of God.
You know, I mean, here we arein June, pride Month, right, the
first of the seven deadly sins,and here's God himself, the
actual power, the actual creatorof all this, and it's the
opposite of that, isn't he?
I mean, he has a humble heart.
You know, whenever you think ofGod doing what you just
(20:17):
described, you think about thehumility.
How many times would my ownfather if I turned away from him
?
Multiple times.
It's not easy taking a guy backafter all that and you have to
be very humble.
When I think about Jesus, youknow, wearing a crown of thorns,
getting beaten, carrying across, the humility that you
(20:38):
described is when you really sitback and think about it.
It's amazing.
Speaker 2 (20:43):
Yeah, I mean there's complete, abject humility that
the creator of all things becamethe absolute slave and took
upon the taunts, the cheers, thesufferings, the sorrows,
everything of all of us, and didso out of the greatest love,
and he did it for the absoluteleast of all of us.
Speaker 1 (21:02):
Yeah, and you know, when you think about the anxiety
that I talk to these youngpeople about, that they feel the
depression.
A lot of them say, hey, I havebuddies and people in my life
that talk about suicide.
At least, if they're not goingto actually commit it, they sure
(21:25):
sound like it.
70% of Americans are on somekind of prescription drug.
Numbers two and three areopioids and anxiety medicine.
And so you say, where did thislack of peace come from, this
lack of joy come from?
And what we're talking abouthere is you know, this gift of
the Holy Spirit, you know tocome back into our hearts and
bring this joy and peace.
And when you go to confession,you're experiencing this, you
(21:48):
understand it, you experience it.
And then you go to Mass, andwhen you go to Mass, you know,
with a clean heart, this is aprofound privilege that we have.
You know, with a clean heart,this is a profound privilege
that we have.
Right to unite yourself withthis person of Jesus Christ,
which I'll just finish my littlemonologue here, michael, by
saying I personally experiencedthis.
I know this.
You know.
(22:08):
People ask me well, how do youknow Jesus in the Eucharist?
Well, for me it's easy, becauseI actually experienced it and I
know it right and I'm not goingto get into that story now,
I've told it many times but thepower of it, and I'm just so
humbled this morning, when I wasgoing to Mass this morning,
just sitting there knowing youwere going to come on and just
feeling this humility and thisbeauty of the privilege of going
(22:29):
up and receiving the Eucharist,it was amazing.
So let's talk a little bitabout the Mass and what it means
to you and again described hereso well.
You did such a good job.
Speaker 2 (22:41):
You know it's funny.
You mentioned the Eucharist.
You mentioned that.
You know we are.
You know, praise God.
There used to be an old kind offeeling that Catholics weren't
biblical.
I think that's been laid torest.
Catholics are very biblical,but what you don't understand is
just how important throughoutthe Mass you know there's so
much scripture and if you'regoing to Mass you know every day
(23:02):
you're going to basically readalmost the entire Bible over a
three-year period.
But let's go to.
You know what is the Eucharist.
Is this really important?
Do we really?
Is this his body, his blood?
The story that's always justgotten me is the story Jesus is
working on these miracles andhe's got all these people and
(23:23):
you can just sense that this wasthe height of his popularity.
He's got all these crowds outthere and then he just blows
them away and he goes.
Unless you eat my body anddrink my blood, unless you gnaw
on my flesh, gnaw on my flesh,you have no life, for my body is
true food and my blood is truedrink.
Now you're sitting therethinking well, what does this
(23:46):
mean?
Well, everyone starts grumblingand they're like this is hard,
who can take this?
And they start leaving.
They start leaving andeverybody, just about every
single person, leads.
So the leaders of the peopleleave.
People have been following him.
Probably some people have beenfollowing him from the very
beginning.
They've been following aroundeverywhere.
They've seen the miracles andthey're like wait, a second
(24:08):
cannibalism.
Wait, I need to eat your fleshNow.
They walked away.
So no one thought he was doinga metaphor.
What they thought he was alunatic at that moment.
And as they walked away, hedidn't say wait, wait, wait,
wait, come back.
It's a metaphor, it's a symbol.
Let me explain.
He let them leave and whenthey're basically all gone you
(24:31):
know, we know the 12 are stillthere, maybe there's a few more
he looks to them and he says youwant to leave too?
He doesn't say I'm going toexplain it to you now.
He says do you want to leavenow?
And Peter's you know, onceagain something takes over Peter
, the Holy Spirit, and he saysto whom shall we go?
You have the words of eternallife.
So this is the great thingthat's important.
(24:52):
Peter makes an act of faith.
He does not understand this atthe time.
He does not know what the heckit means.
He knows that Jesus meant it,but he doesn't know what he
meant by it?
I'm going to sit there and sinkmy teeth into your arm now,
jesus.
And then we have the LastSupper.
And then, at the Last Supper,what does Jesus say?
He holds up what looks likebread, looks like wine.
(25:14):
But when he says the words, andit is at that moment, and he
says this is my body, this is myblood, take this, eat and drink
.
And whenever you do this, youdo this in remembrance of me.
And all of a sudden you canjust see the Holy Spirit light
bulb come on in Peter's head.
So this is how it's going tohappen.
(25:34):
And two things.
Number one his head.
So this is how it's going tohappen.
And two things.
Number one yes, I'm going toeat his body and I'm going to
drink his blood, but not just me.
Everybody, for all time,there's going to be this
miraculous giving of himself.
But he didn't say look, now I'mexplaining to you.
See, it's a symbol.
No, no, no.
He said this is my body, thisis.
Speaker 1 (25:57):
It's amazing, right.
And then I just remember afterthat, still so, that was John 6.
And then you know, initiallyright, when the disciples got up
and walked away.
And then a little bit later onhe's telling the disciples you
know, it's good that I go to theFather, this is after the
resurrection, because I'll sendthe advocate down to you, the
Holy Spirit down.
The resurrection because I'llsend the advocate down to the
(26:19):
Holy Spirit down.
And you know, when we're at themask we enter into and make
present that one time eternalsacrifice that Jesus was.
You know God goes beyond timeand space, right, so we get to
enter into that one time, Very,very.
You know it takes you a whileto be able to relax, you know,
and open your mind and yourheart enough to enter into that,
but it's possible and you getto that point.
(26:41):
But then Jesus says it's goodthat I go to the Father because
then he'll send the advocatedown.
At this point Jesus leaves thistemporal space and this temporal
takes on a glorified body.
And now it reminded me of whatyou just said.
Now the Holy Spirit comes overthose gifts of the Eucharist,
they the altar, and now he poursthis out to all of us, because
(27:01):
he's beyond time now, you know,he's not limited to a body here
on earth.
And now, how would he go acrossthe whole world and do this?
I'm going to the Father, youknow I'm going to have a
glorified body, I'm going totranscend this temporal space
and any restrictions on mymovement, and now I'm going to
(27:24):
send the Spirit down.
And the beauty of this is Godsays you know, you guys, go out
and take what creation is, turnit into bread, turn the grapes
and the raw material I gave you,turn that into wine.
So you're doing something.
And then God says now I'm goingto take that and I'm going to
do something, and so we meet.
That's what every sacrament,you know.
We have two dimensions, right,a human dimension and a divine
(27:47):
dimension.
This is such a beautiful thing.
You can't make this stuff up.
Speaker 2 (27:50):
No, and it's interesting.
You know we talk about the Mass.
You talked about the HolySpirit.
You know I only crack thesurface and you can get great
books and really read about thedepths of the Mass and I highly
recommend people look, go andlearn more about the Mass.
You can spend your whole lifemeditating on the past, learning
about the Mass, and you'llnever run out of material.
(28:13):
But just one point a lot ofchurches don't ring the bell at
this one point early on in theconsecration and I think a lot
of people feel like, well, weshould definitely get rid of
that bell, because that bell oh,that's just something symbolic,
that's just some silly littlething.
The smells and the bells andthat's the old Latin mass or
whatever.
Blah, blah, blah.
(28:33):
There's a reason.
The bell is rung Now.
Practical reason is wake up.
Speaker 1 (28:38):
I mean, I love it because a lot of times my mind
is drifting.
Speaker 2 (28:41):
It's a wake up and that's called the epiclesis,
because the moment that bellsring it's when the priest is
calling down the holy spirit.
At that moment it's a very,very important moment.
The reason I brought this up,jack, is because you just talked
about the Holy Spirit cominginto the Mass and then the
(29:01):
Spirit of God is what's going tomake that transubstantiation
happen.
You know that the bread willbecome Jesus's body, blood, soul
and divinity, and the same forthe wine.
Speaker 1 (29:16):
Yes, it's amazing, right, you know, if you stretch
this a little bit further, youcould see that our bodies are of
the earth too, right?
I mean, you know, taken fromthe earth.
You know Genesis 2, verse 7,.
You know, god takes the clay,the biology, the same stuff,
basically, that everything'smade out of, and then he blows,
(29:38):
he blows into it.
This is the spirit coming intous.
This is what's happening here.
We're offering our gifts, andhere's my body of the clay.
Well, what makes me differentthan the rest of creation?
It's the spirit.
It's this blowing in.
I become this embodied soul.
This is what I'm making visible, my soul, who I am inside.
Well, god has to blow this intome, god has to give this to me,
(30:01):
god has to feed me in order forme to be able to lift up.
You know, St Irenaeus, right,you know, the glory of God is
man fully alive.
This is where he wants theseyoung men that we're speaking to
and, again, all the people thatlove them.
Speaker 2 (30:15):
Michael isn't it and let's talk to your audience
right now.
You know we kind of got veryhigh in theological and you're
being a great Catholic there,throwing out your Bible verses
and this and that, but God comesto us exactly where we're at
all.
Right, you don't?
Speaker 1 (30:32):
have to fully understand the Eucharist.
You do not have to have amaster's or a doctorate in
theology.
Speaker 2 (30:36):
You do not have to fully understand the acres.
You do not have to have amaster's or a doctorate in
theology.
You do not have to have theBible memorized.
You don't even have to feelanything.
None of that changes thereality of what happens.
One of my favorite linesactually I will say my favorite
line in the catechism of theCatholic church is faith is not
a feeling, it's a decision.
(30:57):
The Catholic Church is faith isnot a feeling, it's a decision.
If we had the true feeling, wealways felt everything.
That's actually the opposite offaith.
I don't need to have faith thatI've been married to my wife
for 36 years as of today.
I don't have to have faith ofthat Is today your anniversary.
Speaker 1 (31:11):
Today is our anniversary.
Congratulations.
Speaker 2 (31:14):
I don't have to have faith on that.
I know that to be true.
I don't have to have faithCongratulations.
I don't have to have faith onthat.
I know that to be true.
I don't have to have faith,jack, that you exist, I know,
but sometimes I don't feel God'spresence in the Eucharist.
I don't feel like the angelicchoir singing.
Oh, my heart is so full withthe presence.
No, I don't feel it most of thetime, but it doesn't change the
reality.
(31:34):
And the best.
My favorite prayer, probablyone of my favorite prayers of
all times, is Lord, I believe,help my unbelief.
I say that prayer a milliontimes, you know, on any given
year, honestly, throughout theprayer, throughout my life,
throughout the times that I'msuffering, the times when I'm
doubting, when the times that Ihave anxiety and depression, the
time that you know somethingterrible is happening in my life
(31:55):
, the times that I'm praying, Ireally want to feel something
and I don't feel it.
I believe.
Help my unbelief.
Speaker 1 (32:02):
Yeah, think about what again I'm going to just
stretch this for these youngpeople is that this is a big
problem.
Today, love has been reduceddown to a feeling, down to an
emotion, and then furtherreduced down to sex to a sexual
activity.
Speaker 2 (32:17):
You know it.
What is love?
What's the definition of love?
Speaker 1 (32:19):
Yeah, Well, love is desiring and willing the good of
another person, amen.
And that doesn't always feelgood, does it?
Speaker 2 (32:26):
That's it.
Speaker 1 (32:27):
In fact, this is the point I was going to try to make
and you're exactly right on.
You know, when I came back intothe church, it was because I
got on my knees, because mymarriage was really suffering.
And when I came back into thechurch I said, okay, I'm getting
it.
I went to confession, I'mreceiving the sacraments, I
started to pray.
I didn't understand to yourearlier point, which is a great
(32:47):
point I didn't understand whatwas going, but I knew something
was changing in me.
That's what I understood.
But when I went home, my wifedidn't like me or the Catholic
church, and so I went back tothe chaplain I go, I don't feel
this.
I said I feel you, but I don'tfeel this relationship.
I said so what are you going todo about her?
And it was so clear, mike, hesaid I'm not going to.
(33:09):
You're going to do it.
You're going to bring thefather, you're going to bring
the life into there.
Because life into there,because you know you have to be
the person of God right now, youhave to be the lover.
That, and I started to complainand I said I know what you want
me to do.
You want me to love someonethat doesn't love me back right.
And I looked up at the crucifixand I go, ooh, that's what he
did for me.
(33:29):
So again to your point, whywould I walk into that mass,
that sacrifice?
I should be feeling the passionsometimes and like, oh, and
looking back at my life, and sosometimes that's what I feel and
I just say thank you, god, youknow, for getting me out of that
mess that I was trying tocreate for my own life and for
pulling me up, and I think it'sgood to remember these things,
(33:52):
mike, you know, yeah, it's not akumbaya, you know, dancing
around all the time, but thereare moments of that too.
Sure, this is like a real liverelationship, that's what it's
like.
Speaker 2 (34:02):
Let's bring it back to the practical.
Let's use some examples,especially since you know to
some extent you're also in thispodcast, trying to reach out to
young men.
So let's just, I don't carewhat sport it is, let's just
take it really simple.
Let's just take weightlifting.
Every moment you walk in thegym, you don't have gains.
It just doesn't happen.
Speaker 1 (34:20):
And you don't feel like being there either, do you?
Speaker 2 (34:22):
And you don't feel like being there.
But then you do have thosemoments where you know you do
get a PR and all of a sudden youfeel phenomenal, but it's few
and far between but.
And you feel phenomenal, butit's few and far between.
But the only way you're goingto get those is if you just keep
pushing through those days thatyou don't feel a darn thing.
And it's the same way if youwant to study.
Speaker 1 (34:41):
Great point, another great point Good in your school.
Speaker 2 (34:44):
You don't sit there.
You go home every moment andread that one assignment and now
, boom, you got it all.
No, it's the whole semester.
The teacher's got an idea.
We're going to slowly build youand hopefully you're going to
ace the final exam becauseyou're going to learn along a
complete plan and maybe you'regoing to get a couple of A's on
a test or whatever.
(35:04):
Your grades are a little bitbetter, a little worse, whatever
, but you're working to an end.
And same way with work.
We don't walk in every day towork and feel like now I nailed
it.
No, we have days that we failmiserably at work.
I feel like everything went bad, I did nothing, or else I just
couldn't get anything done.
I was distracted.
That's okay.
(35:24):
I can't just.
Well, today I'm just going togo home.
No, I'm going to hang in it.
I'm going to work through theday.
Speaker 1 (35:39):
I'm going to go home and I'm going to give God my
failures that day rather than mysuccesses.
Yeah, this is like real life,isn't it?
Those are great analogies, mike.
So thank you for that.
You know, it's a realrelationship, but the difference
is when things get really tough.
You know you're yoked to Christand you are filled with the
Holy Spirit and you'll be ableto do more than you think If
those tough times come and youstay with it, like you said, and
(36:01):
don't walk away.
You know, because it's too manytimes it becomes just apathetic.
You know it's too hard.
You know GK Chesterton wouldsay that.
You know Christianity wasn'ttried and found failing.
It was found difficult and leftuntried.
And if people only knew that.
If you stayed with it, you know, just like your weight lifter,
(36:22):
that the gains will come.
And there'll be days where yougo, thank goodness.
You look back at your life andsay, god, I was that skinny
little guy out of shape,whatever.
And look at this.
You know, look at me today,five years later, and thank
goodness that I stuck with theprogram.
And you're going to find out.
Your life is like that.
You know it doesn't make iteasy.
You know my brother was aworld-class power lifter and it
(36:44):
didn't make it easy.
He still had to push all thetime.
But you look back and you go,wow, there's some big gains here
.
And I think that's what wehappen in our spiritual life.
Speaker 2 (36:53):
Let's talk about that too.
And this is, you know,sometimes we hit this discipline
and sometimes it can really beoh, that's just a guy thing or
that's just a practice.
It's for guys, it's for women,it's for everyone.
And yes, you know, we are,we're very different a lot of
ways.
But let's just talk aboutdiscipline and let's talk about
about, about just the regularnothing moments of our life.
One of the great statements Ithought that Cardinal Bernadine
(37:15):
made when and it's interestingtwo cardinals in Chicago in a
row died very slow, painfuldeaths of cancer he and Cardinal
George.
But Bernadine made a greatcomment in his book and he said
pray when you're healthy,because it's really hard to pray
when you're sick.
We all have this kind ofconcept that when life is great,
(37:36):
I don't need God, I don't needthat.
But when I'm on my deathbed,when I'm suffering, then I'm
going to offer this up to Godand then I'm going to be heroic.
You know what it stinkssuffering.
I've had chronic pain, I'vedealt with it.
It's not fun, it's horrible.
And one of the first things itattacks.
It doesn't make you morespiritual, honestly, it attacks
your spirituality.
It makes you not want to pray,it makes you what you want to
(37:58):
say is God, take this away fromme and then I'll love you and
I'll be really and I'll pray.
So get in the habit when you'rein control of your life, get in
the habit of praying andneeding God, and that has
nothing to do with male orfemale or young or old.
Get in that habit of theunderstanding of the need for
God and need to be inrelationship with God, and you
(38:20):
know what.
I'll give you an example.
I love analogies Husband andwives.
If you don't work at yourrelationship when things are
going well, how do you thinkthings are going to go?
When there's some tragedy inyour life or there's some
serious problem, it things aregoing to go.
When there's some tragedy inyour life, there's some serious
problem, it's only going to godownhill.
(38:40):
So you better work on it.
When things are going great,when everything is fun, when
you're carefree, those veryearly days of your marriage when
you've got maybe no kids, noresponsibilities, you're both
working.
Hey, those are the times toreally start working at your
marriage.
Speaker 1 (38:55):
You know, there's a song I was thinking.
Willie Nelson has a song I'mToo Sick to Pray, and it's this.
I don't even know if that's thename of it or not, but to your
point, that's exactly what itwas.
You know, he just got to thepoint now.
He's just too sick to pray, youknow.
And he's asking for God, youknow, and yeah, it's a beautiful
thing, but you're exactly right.
(39:16):
And the other thing is look atEsme, do you want to really wait
until you're an old guy and youdon't have anything left to
give and then finally giveyourself to Christ?
You know?
I mean, do it while you can Doit, while you really got a
choice to your point.
Do it when you're healthyenough that you're actually
making a sacrifice, and you knowwhat you're going to find.
You're going to look behind youwhen you're an old man and see
(39:38):
a lot less devastation, a lotless dysfunction, a lot less
people that you hurt over timethan if you would have just been
selfish up until the end.
You know you'll be accepted,like you said.
You know the prodigal son, thefather's going to come out to
you and he's going to bring youin.
But the prodigal son, thefather's going to come out to
you and he's going to bring youin, but then he's going to have
you look backwards just for asecond and say look at all the
(39:59):
pain and suffering this caused.
Speaker 2 (40:01):
If you're to be honest yourself, everyone loves
this concept of the deathbedconfession and we love reading
some of the stories of somesaints and especially wealthy
nobles and kings and stuff.
I no, no, I don't want toactually be baptized until the
moment before I'm dying.
So I know I'm going in.
Good luck catching that onehere's the question why do you
(40:22):
think that you're going to liveyour life one way, your whole
life, and at the last minuteyou're going to pivot?
I mean, give me the example ofthat in your life anywhere and
I'll tell you.
You know, being a little bitolder maybe than you know some
of your listeners, and having afather who's, you know, you know
90 years old right now, andwatching my mother, you know,
(40:43):
die a couple of years ago at 92,and watching some other family
members, it gets much harder tochange significantly the older
you get, because you become moreand more entrenched in your
ways.
You're not as agile, you're notas supple, your mind's not
working.
You know as quickly as you canand you just even misery, you
(41:04):
know even things that reallymake you miserable.
You just get used to thatmisery, you just kind of accept
it.
So you know, don't play forthat last-minute pivot.
The odds are real slim.
Speaker 1 (41:16):
It's sad and that's if I escape dementia and
Alzheimer's, right, and justforget about it, right, no, no,
this is the time to do it.
You know, whenever you turnback, you know God's calling you
.
Like you said, mike, you knowGod's always calling us.
How long are you going toignore him?
I remember I was 38 when I cameback into the church and I
(41:37):
remember so distinctly that Godasking me to die with him.
Right, st Paul, right, you know, to die with Christ and then
rise with Christ.
And I remember it got reallypainful for a second.
I remember getting off the fence.
You know men don't want to getoff the fence.
You know we don't want to bereally bad boys, right, but we
don't really want to be too goodeither.
And you know we play this game,you know.
And finally, christ asked youto get off the get off the fence
(42:00):
, and I remember it got reallypainful.
Right, you start to stretch outand I remember thinking I got to
walk away.
Who am I If I don't lust afterthe girl down the street or what
I mean myself?
A man, whatever?
All these crazy thoughts gothrough your mind, right?
And so I was walking away.
And then I remember the wordsso distinctly.
Are you going to do that again?
Are you going to walk awayagain?
How many times in your life areyou going to do this?
(42:22):
And I remember falling back then, and there was a time where I
rose soon after that and I feltfree.
It was the first time I feltfree since I was a young boy and
you don't realize the baggagethat we carry with us.
And when you start to dump someof that baggage, man alive,
it's amazing and to your point,though, I didn't even know I was
(42:43):
carrying this much garbage withme.
And then Christ starts to peelthat back.
And that's why, when you saidit's so important, when you said
you don't have to understandall this, when you first come
back in, I certainly didn't, butover time those layers start to
peel off and you start to seewow, god really is working in my
life.
You know it's really abeautiful thing.
Speaker 2 (43:04):
You know it's interesting that everyone would.
If I were to say the following,I would say this is pretty sad.
Let's say I'm 16 years old.
What do you want to do?
I didn't put myself 14.
I'm going to high school.
Well, I want to be a reallymediocre basketball player, and
then I want to do pretty average, through poor, through average
on my grades.
(43:24):
I'd like to go to not a verygood school.
I like to get a job that's nota great job, and then I'm really
struggling to even barely dopassable work.
Speaker 1 (43:38):
I'd love to have an average marriage.
I want to have a marriagethat's okay, that doesn't
completely stink, not great.
Speaker 2 (43:45):
Nobody is ever going to say that.
So why would we say that aboutour faith?
Yeah, I want to have an okayrelationship with god.
I don't want to really be likea churchy kind of guy.
I don't want to really be oneof those holy roller dudes, you
know, and then I'd like to kindof, you know, sneak into heaven,
hopefully at the end maybe I'llsay I'm sorry at the very end
(44:08):
and I'm gonna do some time inpurgatory, and then maybe I'll
yeah, yeah, I mean, yeah, itsounds okay, I mean, so you know
that sounds awful, what youjust described for a man.
Speaker 1 (44:18):
That sounds awful.
What young man listening towhat you just said right now
says yep, that's me, that's whatI want?
There's no way, mike, there'sno way.
They want more.
They want more.
That's what they're sensing.
That's what they're sensing.
That's what they're sensingright now because they were
living that life.
Here's what you got to realize,and I know you do.
The guys, the young men, wereliving that mediocre life, but
(44:42):
they've been lied to.
They didn't know they couldreach for the stars, and now
what we're telling them is no,there's more.
That's something more thatyou're feeling in your heart.
It's possible to do, and here'show you'd get there, and that's
what we're talking about today.
It's amazing when you realizethat there actually is a pathway
for you into something morethan this life offers.
Speaker 2 (45:05):
With what you just said and what you were talking
earlier about the anxiety, thedepression, the suicide.
Hopefully all of your listenershave heard this before.
But they talk about theGod-shaped hole in your heart.
And St Augustine said we'vebeen made for you and our hearts
are restless until they rest inyou.
So nothing's going to fill it.
You've got something that youcan shove all of the sports, the
drugs, the alcohol, the sex,the music.
(45:27):
You can shove every singlething in there and it's never
going to satisfy you, becauseyour heart was made for God.
It was made by God to be withGod, for God, for all eternity.
So the only thing that's goingto satisfy it is God.
Speaker 1 (45:39):
And the other thing I want to say about the not
settling for the mediocre.
Speaker 2 (45:42):
Now, as you start struggling, I'm going to get
ahead Maybe some of you peopleare already here and some people
aren't but on the other hand,we also have to live humbly and
have to realize that.
You know what I'm not.
I'm gonna talk about golf rightnow, because it's about the
only sport that I can still do.
I'm not a great golfer, and youknow what it's okay, and so for
(46:03):
me, the best thing is not thatI don't try every time I swing.
I try to do the best I can, butthen when I shank it out of
bounds, it it's not, it's it'slack of humility to say I should
be better, or I'm going to kickthe ball back in bounds and not
tell my partner no, hey,there's humility, I failed, it's
okay, I am what God made me,and it's the same way in the
(46:24):
spiritual life too.
Look, desire to be a saint, butdon't get bummed out.
I'm reading a book aboutCatherine of Siena to get bummed
out.
I'm reading a book aboutCatherine of Siena and once
again, I'm seeing a person whoselife is I can't say she's a
billion times more holy than Iwill ever be, because that would
be such a, I mean, there's nota number.
You know her holiness, hersanctity, but God gave Catherine
(46:47):
the grace to be that holy andGod has not given me that same
grace.
God does not expect it, and Goddoes not love me any less than
he loved Catherine of Siena.
I'm the perfect me, with all myfails, my failings, my
struggles, my imperfection.
God just wants me to do withwhat I can, to always struggle,
(47:08):
but then to also accept that I'ma sinner and I can't.
And here, guys, I'm going tospeak from my heart.
I am always trying to earnheaven and I can't.
And here, guys, I'm going tospeak from my heart.
I am always trying to earnheaven and I can't.
And so I'm always beatingmyself up because I fall so
short, I stink, I'm horrible.
How could God ever love somebodylike me?
He does love me.
He loves you exactly.
You can't earn God's love.
(47:30):
He gives it to you, and whenyou say you're sorry, god is so
happy.
When you come to confession,he's so happy you're at
confession.
But that was never a conditionfor his love.
He would have loved you had younot gone to confession.
But he loves the fact you wentto confession, not because you
did something for him, butbecause you let him do something
for you.
Speaker 1 (47:48):
That's beautiful and that's a great way to go out.
I think right now Our time isup, man what?
And that's a great way to goout.
I think right now Our time isup, man.
What a pleasure you are, mike,thank you so much, and again
I'll have this book in the shownotes.
I'm going to encourage everyonethat's part of Claymore and
also just listening today topick up that book.
Again, I'll have it in there.
Speaker 2 (48:06):
Ignatius Press puts it out and I'll put a link in
there.
And you can get it anywhere.
You can get it from stores andthis and that, obviously, I love
Ignatius Press.
They're such a phenomenalCatholic publisher so I got to
promote their website that'sIgnatiuscom.
Speaker 1 (48:20):
Thank you so much, michael, your pleasure.
Thanks everyone for joining usTalk to you again soon, bye-bye.
I need something quick, right, If I don't know
the Catholic faith and I'mlooking for something, man, I
need a guide like this, thiskind of guide me in, and if I
want to go deeper and deeper anddeeper, there's plenty of
opportunity for that.
But these guys are stepping inMichael to the story and you're
doing exactly what they need.
Speaker 2 (00:17):
It's kind of funny.
You go back to what gifts Goddoes give you.
So I was a trial attorney.
What can I do?
I can take difficult conceptsand I can break them down and
explain them in a very shortamount of time, a very short
number of words.
It takes a lot of time to dothat and make something that is
perhaps seemingly inaccessibleand make inaccessible because
(00:37):
that's what I had to do forjudges, that's what I had to do
for jurors.
Speaker 1 (00:40):
It's important to look back at your life once in a
while and see how far God hascalled you.
You know we're still notperfect, but you look back and
you go holy moly, what a mess Iwould have been today.
And you know, if you don'tclean up that mess, as you get
older, all of those traits,those negative traits, they get
worse, they're exemplified andman, you can turn into a real
(01:03):
beast.
Welcome to the become who youare podcast, a production of the
john paul to renewal center.
I'm jack riggert, your host.
This is our friday very specialedition focused on Claymore
(01:26):
Miletus Christi, these young menthat we're working with and all
the people that love them.
So it's a big support group outthere, but they're guys that
decided there's got to besomething more than this toxic
culture.
They want to be free, they wantto become free themselves and
then go out and build a cultureof life, love and liberty and
they're sensing an urgency tothat.
So I'm glad to have a goodfriend of mine back on, mike
(01:48):
Pacer.
He's the president of FiveStones, self-described
recovering trial attorney andauthor.
Written many books.
His latest book is on prayer.
I really think, michael, thatthis is going to be the handbook
of Claymore Miletus Christi.
It's a phenomenal book.
It's not really big.
I can almost carry this just inmy back pocket.
I might be able to do that.
(02:08):
It's awesome the amount ofsubjects that you've covered in
a beautiful way.
So great to have you back.
Returning guest Michael, goodto have you here, yeah.
Speaker 2 (02:19):
I guess I didn't mess up too badly last time.
Speaker 1 (02:21):
No, you're okay, Thank you for this, I really do.
You know, the first thing theseguys do is they get down on
their knees, they open up theirhearts and say, let it be done
to me according to your word,and then our blessed mother says
you know, do as he tells you todo, you know?
So we're opening up our hearts.
You've got some great morningprayers in there.
If they want to add a couple ofthings to that, the other thing
we talk about is a second thingon your knees is temptation is
(02:44):
not a sin To open up all thesetemptations, not to stuff them
down, not to indulge them, butto open those up.
So we're doing that first thingin the morning.
Well, you've got this greatsection in here on purity.
You've got some beautifulprayers right.
So we're trying to purify ourhearts, to free ourselves.
And in this section I'll justmention quickly on fasting too.
I'm a big fasting fan, not onlyfasting from food, but alcohol,
(03:08):
say, nicotine, pornography,sloth, whatever you're dealing
with guys, you can fast fromthat.
It's a big deal.
It's a big deal, and thesesmall fasts that you can do
really build you up.
Today I want to talk a littlebit about maybe a couple of
those things, but focus on theMass, michael, and Confession,
(03:31):
because this is the center.
Huh, this is the center of allof this.
If they're not going to Mass,if they're not going to
Confession, they kind of missthe boat.
So let's start this way.
How did you decide, afterwriting all the books that you
did, to write this one?
Speaker 2 (03:46):
finally, michael, Prayers for Catholic Men.
Speaker 1 (03:49):
Ignatius.
Speaker 2 (03:50):
Yeah, I actually wrote that it was actually my
first book.
A different edition of it wasyears ago and it just grew out
of just my own struggles, my ownexperiences, my own journey and
just having great guides.
I mean, I've always had greatspiritual directors, since when
I was a freshman in high schoolto my current life and what
really made me Not so easy tofind anymore either.
Speaker 1 (04:10):
No, no, people ask me today they say where do I find
one?
I say good luck trying to finda priest for sure, because
they're so busy, right?
Speaker 2 (04:18):
But, jack, something and you said this is not just
for Claymore and not just foryoung men, but men that are more
advanced in their years andtheir wisdom and their spiritual
lives.
We're called to be spiritualmentors.
So you know, I work with someyoung men on a semi-regular
basis.
I don't call myself a spiritualdirector, I call myself kind of
a spiritual coach.
That's what this is.
(04:39):
Michael Yep, claymore, miletusChristi, that's that outline,
exactly, claymore, miletusChristi.
Speaker 1 (04:47):
That's that outline and it goes perfectly with what
you're saying, you know, becauseit gives you a systematic
outline of how to disciple youngmen and young men.
What are they looking for, youknow?
And in there, of course, getsback to these prayers.
And sorry to interrupt you againbecause I want you to get back
to how you decided to write this, but what I'm saying is again
that this is just fits so wellwith our Claymore program that
(05:11):
it's almost like you wrote itfor us.
So you wrote this first andthis is what just an updated
edition is.
Speaker 2 (05:16):
That kind of what happened yeah, but it's a much
updated and it's funny becauseyou talk about confession and
mass.
One of the things that I reallybulked up is I addressed the
mass and I really addressedconfession.
So I wrote this many years agowell, many, I don't know
probably eight or 10 years ago,a much smaller version of it.
So this is a really bulked upon steroids version recognized a
(05:37):
lot of areas that needed to beaddressed and one of them, you
know, the mass and confessionwere two areas that really
needed to be addressed more.
So I really went into and again, I didn't go through the mass
and explain every single prayerin the mass.
What I kept it was a higherlevel why did we go to mass?
What are we trying to get outof mass?
How do we go into mass?
How do we prepare ourselves formass?
How do we do a good job ofpraying the mass?
(05:58):
What do we do after mass?
Speaker 1 (06:00):
So can you say, with all those things you just said?
Can you say, with all thosethings you just said, can you
see why I think it's soimportant to have this as a
especially for these new guyscoming in?
Because you hit all of thosethings in a economy of pages and
you did it in a way that's avery I was going to say easy
read.
It's not really an easy readper se, but certainly very
readable and understandable, andit's not one of those things I
(06:24):
have to spend weeks and weeksand weeks getting deep into a
theology lesson.
Right, You're really nailing it.
And when I'm coming in, I needsomething quick.
Right, If I don't know theCatholic faith and I'm looking
for something, man, I need aguide like this, this kind of
guide me in.
And if I want to go deeper anddeeper and deeper, there's
plenty of opportunity for that.
(06:45):
But these guys are stepping in,Michael, to the story and
you're doing exactly what theyneed.
So thank you again.
Speaker 2 (06:51):
It's.
You know, you got to recognizewhat your gifts are.
I've read, you know, a bunch ofnovels and I'm always amazed by
great writers of novels.
I'm reading another MichaelO'Brien novel right now and I
mean, this guy is an incrediblewriter.
I can never write like this,but what I can do it's kind of
funny.
You go back to you know whatgifts God does give you.
So I was a trial attorney.
(07:11):
What can I do?
I can take difficult conceptsand I can break them down and
explain them in a very shortamount of time, a very short
number of words.
It takes a lot of time to dothat and make something that is
perhaps seemingly inaccessibleand make inaccessible, because
that's what I had to do forjudges, that's what I had to do
for jurors.
Speaker 1 (07:31):
Yeah, it makes sense.
And before you go to Mass,let's just touch on this.
We can come back and go alittle deeper.
Before you go to Mass, makesure you do what, michael,
there's a step in front of theMass before you receive that
Eucharist.
Mass before you receive thatEucharist.
There's another sacrament thatwe need to step into and get
washed first.
Speaker 2 (07:47):
Yeah, yeah, and you know what?
It's interesting because somepeople don't understand.
First of all, I want to talkabout Mass.
When we talk about confession,these are the yin and the yang.
This is the one-two punch.
Do keep in mind the beauty,because confession, regular
confession, is a great thing.
I recommend, you know, once amonth.
That's kind of a general,that's mine.
(08:08):
Some people go more often, somepeople go less often.
I think you know, putting itoff to once a couple quarter,
you know once a year.
Speaker 1 (08:17):
that's a bad idea.
It's not enough.
We need that grace, but on theother hand, yeah, amen, amen and
also look, we're sinners.
Speaker 2 (08:24):
But also the running to speak for yourself, Michael.
Speaker 1 (08:27):
Yeah, Well.
Speaker 2 (08:28):
OK.
On the other hand, going toconfession every three days,
four days, you know you canbecome scrupulous.
You've got to be careful ofthat too.
So one thing to keep in mind isthe great thing about masses
Mass washes clean all thoselittle venial sins.
The reception of the Eucharisthas that complete curative power
, yeah important, and don't everforget that.
Now, on the other hand, though,mortal sins, those you need to
(08:49):
go to confession for, and I willsay, there's sins that are more
serious, that aren't quitemortal.
You know, maybe they're washedby communion, perhaps you know
it's still venial sin.
But, you know, probably thebest thing I ever heard and I
did not come up with this, I didnot come up with this, I did
not come up with this but thebest thing I ever heard about
(09:10):
confession was the reason to goto confession is because you
need to say two words and youneed to hear two words.
Hang on that for a second.
So there's this concept.
A lot of our Protestant brothersand sisters have a concept of
sorrow for sin and confessingtheir sins, but they do it very
personally and privately and,yes, theologically.
Even in the Catholic world, webelieve that it is possibly, it
(09:31):
is theoretically possible tomake a perfect act of contrition
and be completely forgiven.
That is possible.
But let's look at the reality.
You know you go up to your room, you know you say I'm sorry, I
don't know, are you, are youperfectly, perfectly, perfectly
sorry?
And do you know that God hascompletely forgiven you?
So what do we need?
(09:51):
We need to stand before God.
The priest is just in personaChristi, the priest is just
there on behalf of God, and youneed to say to God those words
I'm sorry, sorry, yeah.
You have to say to God thosewords I'm sorry, sorry, yeah.
You have to say it, you have toown it, you have to take, you
know, ownership of this.
You say I'm sorry, and thenwhat do you need to hear?
(10:12):
You are forgiven, you'reforgiven, yeah.
And see, there's no doubt.
And it doesn't matter, becausewhen we go to confession,
whether we're up in our roomsaying we're sorry or whether we
go to confession, you can walkout of a confessional and not
feel forgiven.
But it doesn't matter, becauseGod already told you I absolve
you completely, totally.
They're gone, get over.
(10:33):
It Doesn't matter what you feel.
Just tell yourself those sinsare forgiven and move on.
You need to say I'm sorry.
You need to hear you'reforgiven.
Speaker 1 (10:43):
Yeah, you do, and I'll tell you, when I came back
into the church I was gone for20 years when I came back in I
was starting to go back to MassI forgot that one simple thing
right that you need to take thatnuptial bath of confession
first and get clean.
You know, here I am trying to,and the desire to unite myself
with Christ, and I was full ofsin.
It's just like some guycheating on his wife and
(11:10):
pretending like nothing's wrongwhen he goes home.
You know, when I went toconfession for the first time
after 20 years, I got up out ofthat confessional and by the
time I was three or four minutesof driving, three or four
minutes away, my heart exploded.
I mean, basically, I waslooking for a place to turn off
and sit there.
I knew something happened.
So these are powerful movementsof the heart.
You know, and I think sometimes,michael, we take this after if
you've been Catholic for a whileand been going to confession
(11:33):
for a while, you take things forgranted.
It's important to look back atyour life once in a while and
see how far God has called you.
You know we're still notperfect, but you look back and
you go holy moly, what a mess Iwould have been today.
And you know, if you don'tclean up that mess, as you get
older, all of those traits,those negative traits, they get
(11:54):
worse, they're exemplified and,man, you can turn into a real
beast.
Speaker 2 (11:59):
Well, it's interesting that we have no
doubt any aspect of our livesthat we have to put the effort
in.
So you know if you want to bean athlete.
Speaker 1 (12:07):
That's a great point.
Speaker 2 (12:08):
Let's say you're a nice 16, 17-year-old young man
and you want to be a baseball,you want to be a football player
, you want to run track?
No-transcript athlete, it'syour job.
(12:34):
Nobody sits there and says,yeah, you don't have to be any
better in school, I don't worryabout it, maybe study.
Speaker 1 (12:40):
So why the heck do we think that our souls so why the
heck do we think that our souls, our very being, is going to
get any better when we put noeffort into it whatsoever?
I mean, how foolish is that?
Mid-40s, and he was strugglingwith his marriage and a big
(13:04):
problem with his marriage andfinally I just sat there and I
went around and around with thisguy I'm not a marriage
therapist, right and just keptgoing around in a circle.
Nothing I could say was goingto make much difference.
So I finally just stopped.
I said are you praying everyday?
He says yeah, I kind of prayevery day.
And I said okay.
I said are you going to massevery week?
(13:24):
No, are you going to confessionat least once a month?
No, are you praying the rosary?
No, he's the Catholic guy,right.
Are you reading scripture 15,20 minutes a day?
No, I fall into your knees,like I asked you last time.
We met first thing in themorning before you look at that
phone, not really, not all thetime.
(13:44):
You know blah, blah, blah and Isaid dude.
I said dude, you're guaranteedto be a mess and your
relationships are guaranteed tobe a mess.
I said you're living exactlylike I would expect you to live
if you don't do any of thosethings.
So to your point, mike.
I mean it's so important, Imean we think again, you're
going to go to your job, likeyou said, you're going to work
(14:05):
out, you're going to do allthese things.
Then we fail our souls.
We're an embodied soul and whatdo we expect is going to happen
in our lives if we don't takecare of that soul?
Speaker 2 (14:16):
Right, but it flies in the face of our reality.
Why do we think that everysingle aspect of our lives we
have to work at, but not ourspiritual life and, sadly, a lot
of times not at our marriagesor relationships with our
parents or our brothers andsisters?
Why?
Why the heck are those going togo well?
Everything else we know we haveto put work into, but the most
(14:36):
important things in life wesomehow feel are going to
magically occur with no effortwhatsoever.
Speaker 1 (14:41):
Yeah, and it doesn't happen and we become, in our
relationships, in our lives,over time, dysfunctional.
You know, you can see it around, you know how dysfunctional.
You said in the book, in thisplace where you have the
sacrament of reconciliation,that one of the first things or
the first thing that Jesusreally talked about when he came
into his public ministry wascalling us to repent.
(15:03):
You know, we all stand at thattree in a sense.
You know, and we have to decide.
You know, which way do we goright, the tree of the knowledge
of good and evil.
Do I go with God or do I turnmy back on God?
And Jesus comes in and saysrepent, dude, you're going to
have to.
You know metanoia right, youhave to turn away from the
sinful past life you had andcome into this story with me.
(15:25):
And if you're not going to dothat, don't waste your time.
Don't waste your time becausethe world is a powerful draw.
You're not dealing with, as StPaul said, just with flesh.
You're dealing with the powersand the principalities.
Don't we see this today,michael?
Absolutely.
What you're talking about hereis the power to fight against a
(15:47):
real culture of death that wehave out there today.
Speaker 2 (15:53):
Yeah, it's interesting, I don't know.
This thought kind of came to meabout the going back and the
changing and the metanoia,thinking back a million years
ago, when I was that 14-year-oldkid or that 16-year-old kid,
and I remember a lot of thingshappening in school and your
social life, especially thosereally awkward years where you
just you do something, you feellike you made a complete fool
(16:16):
out of yourself, you feel likean idiot, you feel like the end
of school year, you know, youjust, oh, nobody likes me, I'm a
loser, I'm this, I'm that, allthose sorts of things.
And what you really alwaysdream of is a new beginning and
a second chance.
And sometimes, you know, it waskind of cool.
Every school year after summerwas kind of neat, like whatever.
(16:37):
I don't know, maybe I was weird,but I'd kind of look at the
last year and say, hey, this isa new year, maybe I can do this,
maybe I can do that.
But how about a God who lovesyou so much that every single
time you fail, he says all yougot to do is tell me I'm sorry
and I will just completelyforgive you?
(16:58):
You know, there's the story ofthe prodigal son and there's,
you know, the beautiful paintingof it.
And there's just most peopleknow this story about the son
comes.
The son totally messes up.
We don't have to go into thosestories.
The son totally messes up theyounger son.
Speaker 1 (17:12):
Yeah, tell a little bit of it because I think it's
good for the guys to hear,because they need to hear this.
Michael, I'll do a quick one.
Speaker 2 (17:19):
I'll do a quick one.
So you've got a father, andhe's a wealthy father and he's
got two sons.
And the youngest son basicallysays look, father, give me my
share in the inheritance.
Right now, which basically islike dad, you're dead to me,
just give me as if you were dead, give me my share of the
inheritance, just give me as ifyou were dead, give me my share
of the inheritance.
And the dad does it.
The dad is so you know, soprodigal.
(17:42):
And prodigal, by the way, doesnot mean cheap, it means the
opposite.
So he gives everything to theson.
The son goes and just blows it,and there's a lot of great
things in the Bible, especiallylittle euphemisms and things
like that.
He squanders it on a life ofsin, and debauchery is what he
does.
I mean wine, women and song.
(18:03):
And he's got nothing.
And he's bottomed out and he'ssitting there feeding the pigs
which you know, you can't evenbe near a pig when you're a Jew
and he's sitting there feedingthem and he wishes he could eat
the corn husks.
So he kind of puts this thingtogether.
I'm going to go back.
He doesn't really say.
He doesn't really say I am sosorry.
He doesn't say I am so sorry hegoes.
You know what?
I'm sitting here and my lifesucks, and so many other people
the slaves living in my father'shouse are better than mine.
So he puts up this.
(18:25):
You can even see him work upthe.
Okay, I'll go back.
I'll tell him, father, I havesinned against.
God and against you, just takeme back.
I mean he's like, yeah, this isjust BS, but still he comes to
a sense as he goes back.
But here's the cool part of thestory and this is what I want
to drive home.
The father sees him at adistance and goes running out to
(18:46):
meet him, which means the storyis every day that he's been
gone every day.
After this son insulted him,trashed him, squandered
everything he had given him, thefather's out there every day
looking for his son, and whenthe son isn't even there, isn't
on his knees, hasn't even saidI'm sorry, yet the father is
running out to greet him andwhen the son says his little
(19:11):
nothing, sorry, he's embraced,he's put the best robe on him,
puts his ring on his finger, hereadopts him, puts him back into
the position that he was, orthe better position, and that's
God and that's confession.
It's every moment.
God is running to us.
See, prayer.
One thing about prayer is wealways think prayer is initiated
(19:31):
by us.
It's not, it's a response.
God is always God.
Just imagine him leaning.
Heaven isn't up there, butlet's just imagine Imagine God
leaning, staring at you with thegreatest amount of love, saying
please, please, please justcome back to me, please turn
your eyes to me for a second andI will shower you with
forgiveness, with love, withgrace, with everything you need.
Speaker 1 (19:55):
Michael, can you imagine why?
You know, you think thehumility of God.
You know, I mean, here we arein June, pride Month, right, the
first of the seven deadly sins,and here's God himself, the
actual power, the actual creatorof all this, and it's the
opposite of that, isn't he?
I mean, he has a humble heart.
You know, whenever you think ofGod doing what you just
(20:17):
described, you think about thehumility.
How many times would my ownfather if I turned away from him
?
Multiple times.
It's not easy taking a guy backafter all that and you have to
be very humble.
When I think about Jesus, youknow, wearing a crown of thorns,
getting beaten, carrying across, the humility that you
(20:38):
described is when you really sitback and think about it.
It's amazing.
Speaker 2 (20:43):
Yeah, I mean there's complete, abject humility that
the creator of all things becamethe absolute slave and took
upon the taunts, the cheers, thesufferings, the sorrows,
everything of all of us, and didso out of the greatest love,
and he did it for the absoluteleast of all of us.
Speaker 1 (21:02):
Yeah, and you know, when you think about the anxiety
that I talk to these youngpeople about, that they feel the
depression.
A lot of them say, hey, I havebuddies and people in my life
that talk about suicide.
At least, if they're not goingto actually commit it, they sure
(21:25):
sound like it.
70% of Americans are on somekind of prescription drug.
Numbers two and three areopioids and anxiety medicine.
And so you say, where did thislack of peace come from, this
lack of joy come from?
And what we're talking abouthere is you know, this gift of
the Holy Spirit, you know tocome back into our hearts and
bring this joy and peace.
And when you go to confession,you're experiencing this, you
(21:48):
understand it, you experience it.
And then you go to Mass, andwhen you go to Mass, you know,
with a clean heart, this is aprofound privilege that we have.
You know, with a clean heart,this is a profound privilege
that we have.
Right to unite yourself withthis person of Jesus Christ,
which I'll just finish my littlemonologue here, michael, by
saying I personally experiencedthis.
I know this.
You know.
(22:08):
People ask me well, how do youknow Jesus in the Eucharist?
Well, for me it's easy, becauseI actually experienced it and I
know it right and I'm not goingto get into that story now,
I've told it many times but thepower of it, and I'm just so
humbled this morning, when I wasgoing to Mass this morning,
just sitting there knowing youwere going to come on and just
feeling this humility and thisbeauty of the privilege of going
(22:29):
up and receiving the Eucharist,it was amazing.
So let's talk a little bitabout the Mass and what it means
to you and again described hereso well.
You did such a good job.
Speaker 2 (22:41):
You know it's funny.
You mentioned the Eucharist.
You mentioned that.
You know we are.
You know, praise God.
There used to be an old kind offeeling that Catholics weren't
biblical.
I think that's been laid torest.
Catholics are very biblical,but what you don't understand is
just how important throughoutthe Mass you know there's so
much scripture and if you'regoing to Mass you know every day
(23:02):
you're going to basically readalmost the entire Bible over a
three-year period.
But let's go to.
You know what is the Eucharist.
Is this really important?
Do we really?
Is this his body, his blood?
The story that's always justgotten me is the story Jesus is
working on these miracles andhe's got all these people and
(23:23):
you can just sense that this wasthe height of his popularity.
He's got all these crowds outthere and then he just blows
them away and he goes.
Unless you eat my body anddrink my blood, unless you gnaw
on my flesh, gnaw on my flesh,you have no life, for my body is
true food and my blood is truedrink.
Now you're sitting therethinking well, what does this
(23:46):
mean?
Well, everyone starts grumblingand they're like this is hard,
who can take this?
And they start leaving.
They start leaving andeverybody, just about every
single person, leads.
So the leaders of the peopleleave.
People have been following him.
Probably some people have beenfollowing him from the very
beginning.
They've been following aroundeverywhere.
They've seen the miracles andthey're like wait, a second
(24:08):
cannibalism.
Wait, I need to eat your fleshNow.
They walked away.
So no one thought he was doinga metaphor.
What they thought he was alunatic at that moment.
And as they walked away, hedidn't say wait, wait, wait,
wait, come back.
It's a metaphor, it's a symbol.
Let me explain.
He let them leave and whenthey're basically all gone you
(24:31):
know, we know the 12 are stillthere, maybe there's a few more
he looks to them and he says youwant to leave too?
He doesn't say I'm going toexplain it to you now.
He says do you want to leavenow?
And Peter's you know, onceagain something takes over Peter
, the Holy Spirit, and he saysto whom shall we go?
You have the words of eternallife.
So this is the great thingthat's important.
(24:52):
Peter makes an act of faith.
He does not understand this atthe time.
He does not know what the heckit means.
He knows that Jesus meant it,but he doesn't know what he
meant by it?
I'm going to sit there and sinkmy teeth into your arm now,
jesus.
And then we have the LastSupper.
And then, at the Last Supper,what does Jesus say?
He holds up what looks likebread, looks like wine.
(25:14):
But when he says the words, andit is at that moment, and he
says this is my body, this is myblood, take this, eat and drink
.
And whenever you do this, youdo this in remembrance of me.
And all of a sudden you canjust see the Holy Spirit light
bulb come on in Peter's head.
So this is how it's going tohappen.
(25:34):
And two things.
Number one his head.
So this is how it's going tohappen.
And two things.
Number one yes, I'm going toeat his body and I'm going to
drink his blood, but not just me.
Everybody, for all time,there's going to be this
miraculous giving of himself.
But he didn't say look, now I'mexplaining to you.
See, it's a symbol.
No, no, no.
He said this is my body, thisis.
Speaker 1 (25:57):
It's amazing, right.
And then I just remember afterthat, still so, that was John 6.
And then you know, initiallyright, when the disciples got up
and walked away.
And then a little bit later onhe's telling the disciples you
know, it's good that I go to theFather, this is after the
resurrection, because I'll sendthe advocate down to you, the
Holy Spirit down.
The resurrection because I'llsend the advocate down to the
(26:19):
Holy Spirit down.
And you know, when we're at themask we enter into and make
present that one time eternalsacrifice that Jesus was.
You know God goes beyond timeand space, right, so we get to
enter into that one time, Very,very.
You know it takes you a whileto be able to relax, you know,
and open your mind and yourheart enough to enter into that,
but it's possible and you getto that point.
(26:41):
But then Jesus says it's goodthat I go to the Father because
then he'll send the advocatedown.
At this point Jesus leaves thistemporal space and this temporal
takes on a glorified body.
And now it reminded me of whatyou just said.
Now the Holy Spirit comes overthose gifts of the Eucharist,
they the altar, and now he poursthis out to all of us, because
(27:01):
he's beyond time now, you know,he's not limited to a body here
on earth.
And now, how would he go acrossthe whole world and do this?
I'm going to the Father, youknow I'm going to have a
glorified body, I'm going totranscend this temporal space
and any restrictions on mymovement, and now I'm going to
(27:24):
send the Spirit down.
And the beauty of this is Godsays you know, you guys, go out
and take what creation is, turnit into bread, turn the grapes
and the raw material I gave you,turn that into wine.
So you're doing something.
And then God says now I'm goingto take that and I'm going to
do something, and so we meet.
That's what every sacrament,you know.
We have two dimensions, right,a human dimension and a divine
(27:47):
dimension.
This is such a beautiful thing.
You can't make this stuff up.
Speaker 2 (27:50):
No, and it's interesting.
You know we talk about the Mass.
You talked about the HolySpirit.
You know I only crack thesurface and you can get great
books and really read about thedepths of the Mass and I highly
recommend people look, go andlearn more about the Mass.
You can spend your whole lifemeditating on the past, learning
about the Mass, and you'llnever run out of material.
(28:13):
But just one point a lot ofchurches don't ring the bell at
this one point early on in theconsecration and I think a lot
of people feel like, well, weshould definitely get rid of
that bell, because that bell oh,that's just something symbolic,
that's just some silly littlething.
The smells and the bells andthat's the old Latin mass or
whatever.
Blah, blah, blah.
(28:33):
There's a reason.
The bell is rung Now.
Practical reason is wake up.
Speaker 1 (28:38):
I mean, I love it because a lot of times my mind
is drifting.
Speaker 2 (28:41):
It's a wake up and that's called the epiclesis,
because the moment that bellsring it's when the priest is
calling down the holy spirit.
At that moment it's a very,very important moment.
The reason I brought this up,jack, is because you just talked
about the Holy Spirit cominginto the Mass and then the
(29:01):
Spirit of God is what's going tomake that transubstantiation
happen.
You know that the bread willbecome Jesus's body, blood, soul
and divinity, and the same forthe wine.
Speaker 1 (29:16):
Yes, it's amazing, right, you know, if you stretch
this a little bit further, youcould see that our bodies are of
the earth too, right?
I mean, you know, taken fromthe earth.
You know Genesis 2, verse 7,.
You know, god takes the clay,the biology, the same stuff,
basically, that everything'smade out of, and then he blows,
(29:38):
he blows into it.
This is the spirit coming intous.
This is what's happening here.
We're offering our gifts, andhere's my body of the clay.
Well, what makes me differentthan the rest of creation?
It's the spirit.
It's this blowing in.
I become this embodied soul.
This is what I'm making visible, my soul, who I am inside.
Well, god has to blow this intome, god has to give this to me,
(30:01):
god has to feed me in order forme to be able to lift up.
You know, St Irenaeus, right,you know, the glory of God is
man fully alive.
This is where he wants theseyoung men that we're speaking to
and, again, all the people thatlove them.
Speaker 2 (30:15):
Michael isn't it and let's talk to your audience
right now.
You know we kind of got veryhigh in theological and you're
being a great Catholic there,throwing out your Bible verses
and this and that, but God comesto us exactly where we're at
all.
Right, you don't?
Speaker 1 (30:32):
have to fully understand the Eucharist.
You do not have to have amaster's or a doctorate in
theology.
Speaker 2 (30:36):
You do not have to fully understand the acres.
You do not have to have amaster's or a doctorate in
theology.
You do not have to have theBible memorized.
You don't even have to feelanything.
None of that changes thereality of what happens.
One of my favorite linesactually I will say my favorite
line in the catechism of theCatholic church is faith is not
a feeling, it's a decision.
(30:57):
The Catholic Church is faith isnot a feeling, it's a decision.
If we had the true feeling, wealways felt everything.
That's actually the opposite offaith.
I don't need to have faith thatI've been married to my wife
for 36 years as of today.
I don't have to have faith ofthat Is today your anniversary.
Speaker 1 (31:11):
Today is our anniversary.
Congratulations.
Speaker 2 (31:14):
I don't have to have faith on that.
I know that to be true.
I don't have to have faithCongratulations.
I don't have to have faith onthat.
I know that to be true.
I don't have to have faith,jack, that you exist, I know,
but sometimes I don't feel God'spresence in the Eucharist.
I don't feel like the angelicchoir singing.
Oh, my heart is so full withthe presence.
No, I don't feel it most of thetime, but it doesn't change the
reality.
(31:34):
And the best.
My favorite prayer, probablyone of my favorite prayers of
all times, is Lord, I believe,help my unbelief.
I say that prayer a milliontimes, you know, on any given
year, honestly, throughout theprayer, throughout my life,
throughout the times that I'msuffering, the times when I'm
doubting, when the times that Ihave anxiety and depression, the
time that you know somethingterrible is happening in my life
(31:55):
, the times that I'm praying, Ireally want to feel something
and I don't feel it.
I believe.
Help my unbelief.
Speaker 1 (32:02):
Yeah, think about what again I'm going to just
stretch this for these youngpeople is that this is a big
problem.
Today, love has been reduceddown to a feeling, down to an
emotion, and then furtherreduced down to sex to a sexual
activity.
Speaker 2 (32:17):
You know it.
What is love?
What's the definition of love?
Speaker 1 (32:19):
Yeah, Well, love is desiring and willing the good of
another person, amen.
And that doesn't always feelgood, does it?
Speaker 2 (32:26):
That's it.
Speaker 1 (32:27):
In fact, this is the point I was going to try to make
and you're exactly right on.
You know, when I came back intothe church, it was because I
got on my knees, because mymarriage was really suffering.
And when I came back into thechurch I said, okay, I'm getting
it.
I went to confession, I'mreceiving the sacraments, I
started to pray.
I didn't understand to yourearlier point, which is a great
(32:47):
point I didn't understand whatwas going, but I knew something
was changing in me.
That's what I understood.
But when I went home, my wifedidn't like me or the Catholic
church, and so I went back tothe chaplain I go, I don't feel
this.
I said I feel you, but I don'tfeel this relationship.
I said so what are you going todo about her?
And it was so clear, mike, hesaid I'm not going to.
(33:09):
You're going to do it.
You're going to bring thefather, you're going to bring
the life into there.
Because life into there,because you know you have to be
the person of God right now, youhave to be the lover.
That, and I started to complainand I said I know what you want
me to do.
You want me to love someonethat doesn't love me back right.
And I looked up at the crucifixand I go, ooh, that's what he
did for me.
(33:29):
So again to your point, whywould I walk into that mass,
that sacrifice?
I should be feeling the passionsometimes and like, oh, and
looking back at my life, and sosometimes that's what I feel and
I just say thank you, god, youknow, for getting me out of that
mess that I was trying tocreate for my own life and for
pulling me up, and I think it'sgood to remember these things,
(33:52):
mike, you know, yeah, it's not akumbaya, you know, dancing
around all the time, but thereare moments of that too.
Sure, this is like a real liverelationship, that's what it's
like.
Speaker 2 (34:02):
Let's bring it back to the practical.
Let's use some examples,especially since you know to
some extent you're also in thispodcast, trying to reach out to
young men.
So let's just, I don't carewhat sport it is, let's just
take it really simple.
Let's just take weightlifting.
Every moment you walk in thegym, you don't have gains.
It just doesn't happen.
Speaker 1 (34:20):
And you don't feel like being there either, do you?
Speaker 2 (34:22):
And you don't feel like being there.
But then you do have thosemoments where you know you do
get a PR and all of a sudden youfeel phenomenal, but it's few
and far between but.
And you feel phenomenal, butit's few and far between.
But the only way you're goingto get those is if you just keep
pushing through those days thatyou don't feel a darn thing.
And it's the same way if youwant to study.
Speaker 1 (34:41):
Great point, another great point Good in your school.
Speaker 2 (34:44):
You don't sit there.
You go home every moment andread that one assignment and now
, boom, you got it all.
No, it's the whole semester.
The teacher's got an idea.
We're going to slowly build youand hopefully you're going to
ace the final exam becauseyou're going to learn along a
complete plan and maybe you'regoing to get a couple of A's on
a test or whatever.
(35:04):
Your grades are a little bitbetter, a little worse, whatever
, but you're working to an end.
And same way with work.
We don't walk in every day towork and feel like now I nailed
it.
No, we have days that we failmiserably at work.
I feel like everything went bad, I did nothing, or else I just
couldn't get anything done.
I was distracted.
That's okay.
(35:24):
I can't just.
Well, today I'm just going togo home.
No, I'm going to hang in it.
I'm going to work through theday.
Speaker 1 (35:39):
I'm going to go home and I'm going to give God my
failures that day rather than mysuccesses.
Yeah, this is like real life,isn't it?
Those are great analogies, mike.
So thank you for that.
You know, it's a realrelationship, but the difference
is when things get really tough.
You know you're yoked to Christand you are filled with the
Holy Spirit and you'll be ableto do more than you think If
those tough times come and youstay with it, like you said, and
(36:01):
don't walk away.
You know, because it's too manytimes it becomes just apathetic.
You know it's too hard.
You know GK Chesterton wouldsay that.
You know Christianity wasn'ttried and found failing.
It was found difficult and leftuntried.
And if people only knew that.
If you stayed with it, you know, just like your weight lifter,
(36:22):
that the gains will come.
And there'll be days where yougo, thank goodness.
You look back at your life andsay, god, I was that skinny
little guy out of shape,whatever.
And look at this.
You know, look at me today,five years later, and thank
goodness that I stuck with theprogram.
And you're going to find out.
Your life is like that.
You know it doesn't make iteasy.
You know my brother was aworld-class power lifter and it
(36:44):
didn't make it easy.
He still had to push all thetime.
But you look back and you go,wow, there's some big gains here
.
And I think that's what wehappen in our spiritual life.
Speaker 2 (36:53):
Let's talk about that too.
And this is, you know,sometimes we hit this discipline
and sometimes it can really beoh, that's just a guy thing or
that's just a practice.
It's for guys, it's for women,it's for everyone.
And yes, you know, we are,we're very different a lot of
ways.
But let's just talk aboutdiscipline and let's talk about
about, about just the regularnothing moments of our life.
One of the great statements Ithought that Cardinal Bernadine
(37:15):
made when and it's interestingtwo cardinals in Chicago in a
row died very slow, painfuldeaths of cancer he and Cardinal
George.
But Bernadine made a greatcomment in his book and he said
pray when you're healthy,because it's really hard to pray
when you're sick.
We all have this kind ofconcept that when life is great,
(37:36):
I don't need God, I don't needthat.
But when I'm on my deathbed,when I'm suffering, then I'm
going to offer this up to Godand then I'm going to be heroic.
You know what it stinkssuffering.
I've had chronic pain, I'vedealt with it.
It's not fun, it's horrible.
And one of the first things itattacks.
It doesn't make you morespiritual, honestly, it attacks
your spirituality.
It makes you not want to pray,it makes you what you want to
(37:58):
say is God, take this away fromme and then I'll love you and
I'll be really and I'll pray.
So get in the habit when you'rein control of your life, get in
the habit of praying andneeding God, and that has
nothing to do with male orfemale or young or old.
Get in that habit of theunderstanding of the need for
God and need to be inrelationship with God, and you
(38:20):
know what.
I'll give you an example.
I love analogies Husband andwives.
If you don't work at yourrelationship when things are
going well, how do you thinkthings are going to go?
When there's some tragedy inyour life or there's some
serious problem, it things aregoing to go.
When there's some tragedy inyour life, there's some serious
problem, it's only going to godownhill.
(38:40):
So you better work on it.
When things are going great,when everything is fun, when
you're carefree, those veryearly days of your marriage when
you've got maybe no kids, noresponsibilities, you're both
working.
Hey, those are the times toreally start working at your
marriage.
Speaker 1 (38:55):
You know, there's a song I was thinking.
Willie Nelson has a song I'mToo Sick to Pray, and it's this.
I don't even know if that's thename of it or not, but to your
point, that's exactly what itwas.
You know, he just got to thepoint now.
He's just too sick to pray, youknow.
And he's asking for God, youknow, and yeah, it's a beautiful
thing, but you're exactly right.
(39:16):
And the other thing is look atEsme, do you want to really wait
until you're an old guy and youdon't have anything left to
give and then finally giveyourself to Christ?
You know?
I mean, do it while you can Doit, while you really got a
choice to your point.
Do it when you're healthyenough that you're actually
making a sacrifice, and you knowwhat you're going to find.
You're going to look behind youwhen you're an old man and see
(39:38):
a lot less devastation, a lotless dysfunction, a lot less
people that you hurt over timethan if you would have just been
selfish up until the end.
You know you'll be accepted,like you said.
You know the prodigal son, thefather's going to come out to
you and he's going to bring youin.
But the prodigal son, thefather's going to come out to
you and he's going to bring youin, but then he's going to have
you look backwards just for asecond and say look at all the
(39:59):
pain and suffering this caused.
Speaker 2 (40:01):
If you're to be honest yourself, everyone loves
this concept of the deathbedconfession and we love reading
some of the stories of somesaints and especially wealthy
nobles and kings and stuff.
I no, no, I don't want toactually be baptized until the
moment before I'm dying.
So I know I'm going in.
Good luck catching that onehere's the question why do you
(40:22):
think that you're going to liveyour life one way, your whole
life, and at the last minuteyou're going to pivot?
I mean, give me the example ofthat in your life anywhere and
I'll tell you.
You know, being a little bitolder maybe than you know some
of your listeners, and having afather who's, you know, you know
90 years old right now, andwatching my mother, you know,
(40:43):
die a couple of years ago at 92,and watching some other family
members, it gets much harder tochange significantly the older
you get, because you become moreand more entrenched in your
ways.
You're not as agile, you're notas supple, your mind's not
working.
You know as quickly as you canand you just even misery, you
(41:04):
know even things that reallymake you miserable.
You just get used to thatmisery, you just kind of accept
it.
So you know, don't play forthat last-minute pivot.
The odds are real slim.
Speaker 1 (41:16):
It's sad and that's if I escape dementia and
Alzheimer's, right, and justforget about it, right, no, no,
this is the time to do it.
You know, whenever you turnback, you know God's calling you
.
Like you said, mike, you knowGod's always calling us.
How long are you going toignore him?
I remember I was 38 when I cameback into the church and I
(41:37):
remember so distinctly that Godasking me to die with him.
Right, st Paul, right, you know, to die with Christ and then
rise with Christ.
And I remember it got reallypainful for a second.
I remember getting off the fence.
You know men don't want to getoff the fence.
You know we don't want to bereally bad boys, right, but we
don't really want to be too goodeither.
And you know we play this game,you know.
And finally, christ asked youto get off the get off the fence
(42:00):
, and I remember it got reallypainful.
Right, you start to stretch outand I remember thinking I got to
walk away.
Who am I If I don't lust afterthe girl down the street or what
I mean myself?
A man, whatever?
All these crazy thoughts gothrough your mind, right?
And so I was walking away.
And then I remember the wordsso distinctly.
Are you going to do that again?
Are you going to walk awayagain?
How many times in your life areyou going to do this?
(42:22):
And I remember falling back then, and there was a time where I
rose soon after that and I feltfree.
It was the first time I feltfree since I was a young boy and
you don't realize the baggagethat we carry with us.
And when you start to dump someof that baggage, man alive,
it's amazing and to your point,though, I didn't even know I was
(42:43):
carrying this much garbage withme.
And then Christ starts to peelthat back.
And that's why, when you saidit's so important, when you said
you don't have to understandall this, when you first come
back in, I certainly didn't, butover time those layers start to
peel off and you start to seewow, god really is working in my
life.
You know it's really abeautiful thing.
Speaker 2 (43:04):
You know it's interesting that everyone would.
If I were to say the following,I would say this is pretty sad.
Let's say I'm 16 years old.
What do you want to do?
I didn't put myself 14.
I'm going to high school.
Well, I want to be a reallymediocre basketball player, and
then I want to do pretty average, through poor, through average
on my grades.
(43:24):
I'd like to go to not a verygood school.
I like to get a job that's nota great job, and then I'm really
struggling to even barely dopassable work.
Speaker 1 (43:38):
I'd love to have an average marriage.
I want to have a marriagethat's okay, that doesn't
completely stink, not great.
Speaker 2 (43:45):
Nobody is ever going to say that.
So why would we say that aboutour faith?
Yeah, I want to have an okayrelationship with god.
I don't want to really be likea churchy kind of guy.
I don't want to really be oneof those holy roller dudes, you
know, and then I'd like to kindof, you know, sneak into heaven,
hopefully at the end maybe I'llsay I'm sorry at the very end
(44:08):
and I'm gonna do some time inpurgatory, and then maybe I'll
yeah, yeah, I mean, yeah, itsounds okay, I mean, so you know
that sounds awful, what youjust described for a man.
Speaker 1 (44:18):
That sounds awful.
What young man listening towhat you just said right now
says yep, that's me, that's whatI want?
There's no way, mike, there'sno way.
They want more.
They want more.
That's what they're sensing.
That's what they're sensing.
That's what they're sensingright now because they were
living that life.
Here's what you got to realize,and I know you do.
The guys, the young men, wereliving that mediocre life, but
(44:42):
they've been lied to.
They didn't know they couldreach for the stars, and now
what we're telling them is no,there's more.
That's something more thatyou're feeling in your heart.
It's possible to do, and here'show you'd get there, and that's
what we're talking about today.
It's amazing when you realizethat there actually is a pathway
for you into something morethan this life offers.
Speaker 2 (45:05):
With what you just said and what you were talking
earlier about the anxiety, thedepression, the suicide.
Hopefully all of your listenershave heard this before.
But they talk about theGod-shaped hole in your heart.
And St Augustine said we'vebeen made for you and our hearts
are restless until they rest inyou.
So nothing's going to fill it.
You've got something that youcan shove all of the sports, the
drugs, the alcohol, the sex,the music.
(45:27):
You can shove every singlething in there and it's never
going to satisfy you, becauseyour heart was made for God.
It was made by God to be withGod, for God, for all eternity.
So the only thing that's goingto satisfy it is God.
Speaker 1 (45:39):
And the other thing I want to say about the not
settling for the mediocre.
Speaker 2 (45:42):
Now, as you start struggling, I'm going to get
ahead Maybe some of you peopleare already here and some people
aren't but on the other hand,we also have to live humbly and
have to realize that.
You know what I'm not.
I'm gonna talk about golf rightnow, because it's about the
only sport that I can still do.
I'm not a great golfer, and youknow what it's okay, and so for
(46:03):
me, the best thing is not thatI don't try every time I swing.
I try to do the best I can, butthen when I shank it out of
bounds, it it's not, it's it'slack of humility to say I should
be better, or I'm going to kickthe ball back in bounds and not
tell my partner no, hey,there's humility, I failed, it's
okay, I am what God made me,and it's the same way in the
(46:24):
spiritual life too.
Look, desire to be a saint, butdon't get bummed out.
I'm reading a book aboutCatherine of Siena to get bummed
out.
I'm reading a book aboutCatherine of Siena and once
again, I'm seeing a person whoselife is I can't say she's a
billion times more holy than Iwill ever be, because that would
be such a, I mean, there's nota number.
You know her holiness, hersanctity, but God gave Catherine
(46:47):
the grace to be that holy andGod has not given me that same
grace.
God does not expect it, and Goddoes not love me any less than
he loved Catherine of Siena.
I'm the perfect me, with all myfails, my failings, my
struggles, my imperfection.
God just wants me to do withwhat I can, to always struggle,
(47:08):
but then to also accept that I'ma sinner and I can't.
And here, guys, I'm going tospeak from my heart.
I am always trying to earnheaven and I can't.
And here, guys, I'm going tospeak from my heart.
I am always trying to earnheaven and I can't.
And so I'm always beatingmyself up because I fall so
short, I stink, I'm horrible.
How could God ever love somebodylike me?
He does love me.
He loves you exactly.
You can't earn God's love.
(47:30):
He gives it to you, and whenyou say you're sorry, god is so
happy.
When you come to confession,he's so happy you're at
confession.
But that was never a conditionfor his love.
He would have loved you had younot gone to confession.
But he loves the fact you wentto confession, not because you
did something for him, butbecause you let him do something
for you.
Speaker 1 (47:48):
That's beautiful and that's a great way to go out.
I think right now Our time isup, man what?
And that's a great way to goout.
I think right now Our time isup, man.
What a pleasure you are, mike,thank you so much, and again
I'll have this book in the shownotes.
I'm going to encourage everyonethat's part of Claymore and
also just listening today topick up that book.
Again, I'll have it in there.
Speaker 2 (48:06):
Ignatius Press puts it out and I'll put a link in
there.
And you can get it anywhere.
You can get it from stores andthis and that, obviously, I love
Ignatius Press.
They're such a phenomenalCatholic publisher so I got to
promote their website that'sIgnatiuscom.
Speaker 1 (48:20):
Thank you so much, michael, your pleasure.
Thanks everyone for joining usTalk to you again soon, bye-bye.
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